Someone needs to get Yoshihide into rehab.. I think he's been hitting the sake bottle too hard.. :)
The vendor will also add a huge number of total players shipped in North America alone, 1.8 million, said Yoshihide Fujii, president and chief executive officer (CEO) of Toshiba's digital media network company.

"This is a very conservative figure," he said.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/pcworld/20070108/tc_pcworld/128448

DVD only sold 1,089,261 players for 1998 (second year)

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articles/cemadvdsales.html

Were do these guys get their numbers ??

b2b

Someone needs to get Yoshihide into rehab.. I think he's been hitting the sake bottle too hard.. :)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/pcworld/20070108/tc_pcworld/128448

DVD only sold 1,089,261 players for 1998 (second year)

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articles/cemadvdsales.html

Were do these guys get their numbers ??

b2b
Does this come under the same moral category as Sony saying that they aim to ship 2M PS3s and then failing to reach the target?

I await any vocal hd supporter to call BS on this from the high ground they have been sitting atop when calling Sony liars etc. You (as in HD supporters calling sony names) were morally right then but you will be morally wrong now if you keep quiet as and when 1.8M players dont reach happy homes.

Though to be fair, Sony had supply issues, not demand issues like Toshiba will :)

p.s. If toshiba sells 1.8M by that date, I will admit I underestimated them.

Does this come under the same moral category as Sony saying that they aim to ship 2M PS3s and then failing to reach the target?

I await any vocal hd supporter to call BS on this from the high ground they have been sitting atop when calling Sony liars etc. You were morally right then but you will be morally wrong now if you keep quiet as and when 1.8M players dont reach happy homes.

Though to be fair, Sony had supply issues, not demand issues like Toshiba will :)

p.s. If toshiba sells 1.8M by that date, I will admit I underestimated them.

This comes under the category of "fanciful forecasting". Even if there was no Blu-Ray and HD-DVD had the entire HD market to itself, there just aren't enough HDTVs or interest from people that own them to surpass DVD numbers (which was a direct replacement for VCRs and could be connected to any television).

b2b

Butler5,

I truly feel a bit bad for you. But know this. Microsoft is putting huge effort into HD DVD and I think it will be around for a while. Regardless of how strong the BDA has shown at CES, it doesn't change the fact that what you have on HD DVD via the 360 addon is still pleasing to you, and provides you with entertainment value. It's kind of like the old argument you see in the speaker forums. Just because something maybe a bit better comes out or is released, it doesn't diminish the performance of what you currently have.

All of this being said, jump into BD as well. I can personally attest that you will be happy when you do.

I don't know your personal history of how you got into HD DVD, but I really hope it wasn't because of a lot of the propoganda and spin you read on this forum. The BDA is huge, and is basically "everyone" except a few companies who didn't want to lose the "glory days of their DVD success". BD will be the defacto HD optical disc delivery methodology, we've only just seen the beginning of it.

All the best.


Count me in as an ovious minority.I like the idea of my gaming console as a media center. I have always been an Xbox guy over the Playstation. I am keeping the 360 no doubt, as I now have 4 360's waiting fo rVista MCE to come out so I can set up a whole house network with my Dual Cable CArd MCE system. Managed Copy of HD DVD is also important to me because of this. I wish I could stick to the HD DVD side longer, but I really don't want 2 different types of players as I want to build a Library of one type of disk. I guess I'm wierd that way. And it just doesn't make any sense to build a library and hope that HD DVD gets Studio Support. I think it's clear that there will just be more titles on BD that you can't get on HD DVD.That is hard to explain to the wife and kids who want Disney Movies and Such. I wish all Studios could be format neutral because I think that is the best way to determine a real winner, but it doesn't look like it will be tha tway, so I will go with the known and not hope any longer on the unknown!

I am seeing HD-DVD playing catch-up now! Just my opinion; please take it lightly :):


Downplayed 1080p, now trying to catch-up. Jury is still out on 1080p24.
MS downplayed HDMI and 1080p. Xbox360 with HDMI is (if it does come out) about playing catch-up.
Movie sales -- for the first time now, HD-DVD has to play catch-up
Profiles : It seems HD-DVD [DVD forum] will follow BDA's foot-steps if LG player gets an HD-DVD logo without full HDi support. My guess is HD-DVD is 'evolving' as time passes. I hope they finalize the profiles soon enough and let us know what they are.
TL-51 : Playing catch-up. Big time! :D Having said that, if this 'science fiction' -- well, actually that would be BD50, this one is an amazing technological feat (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9392061&&#post9392061) (;)) -- does get adopted by DVD forum in HD-DVD spec, the technical differences between the formats will almost go away, at least from next year (sounds Blu-ray'ish, doesn't it?).
Last but not the least: CE support. I expected much more. But maybe I expected too much.


I think it is just a different perspective, isn't it?

By the way sceasare, I am waiting to see more than 20 posts from you regarding the seemingly ad-hoc, undefined HD-DVD profiles. :p Just kidding. [I know this is just a conjecture]

I must admit, I was expecting much better show from HD-DVD in CES.

Of course, there is a long way to go for Blu-ray; that goes without saying.

DVD and HD-DVD/BluRay are starting from different positions.

Because of the installed base of HD sets there is a good chance HD-DVD or BD will be adopted as fast as DVD was initially, but it will definitely top out far below.


Yes every TV back then could play DVD's, but most people in '97 couldn't fathom movies on a disc the size of a CD. Most couldn't stand those black bar thingies. Most had to wait until Blockbuster was renting them. Very few of us were waiting for DVD to come. Today there are many, many HDTV owners who wonder why their movie discs don't look as good as Lost or CSI. There is less to explain. However, anyone with a 36" set or below (and anyone with a 42" ED plasma) won't care.

I think his numbers are about a year ahead, and that even without a format war. The only potentials to reach those numbers are the PS3 and HD-Addon.

I install hometheatre systems here in australia.
Its amazing how many average people get a expensive hd screen and have cheap dvd players.Many bargain for a dvd or set top box to be thrown in the deal.
Many screens have built in hd set top boxes now so they ask for a dvd or hardrive recorder thrown in.I can see "we will throw in a hd dvd player for you at that price"Some already have their dvd player but not a hd dvd player---this is a whole new ball game with a huge market. This happens all the time in retail--the customer thinks hes getting a great deal and happy----THIS IS WHERE THE CHEAP HDDVD WILL REALLY SHINE.
I say again---I see this all the time with the average customer.

uninspired news in terms of new players other than the LG universal player
Uninspired news?

I think the announcment of the Broadcom SOC with reference design for HD DVD is for the player and the format. It'll dramatically lower the cost of entry into the market, and with two manufacturers already public with their plans on to produce players with it.

That's FIVE new player vendors who announced at CES, with more coming:

http://on10.net/Blogs/benwagg/news-from-ces-item-1-new-players/

Also, I believe the studio's were promised 6 Million Players ... let's see how close Sony gets to that and how long they can keep shoveling excuses before people start to switch sides. IMO, Industry Support had a lot to do with these 'promises'.One of the problems is where the studios turn to. I know the obvious answer is "HD DVD", but if anybody thinks the studios thought that the player count for HD DVD was going to end up where Toshiba's announcement would be something like, "more than 175k", I think they are mistaken. Obviously, Sony didn't hit what they were claiming. And I don't personally think there is much chance of them hitting even close to 6 million by the end of March. On the other hand, the HD DVD camp better pick up the pace if their player sales for the year in North America were under 200k.

--Darin

You've made my point better than I could ever have, Richard. Thank you.

I certainly wouldn't mind there being more public info on the Blu-ray player profiles, but I dislike the fact that your posts always seem to be attacks against Blu-ray.

Richard, I'm sorry that you think any frank discussion is an attack on Bluray, but scaesare's posts are just discussing the facts...

Were do these guys get their numbers ??

Same place as the BD out of there ass. :D

I don't understand this subsidy argument ... how is Toshiba Subsidizing an A1 or A2 any different than what Sony is doing with the PS3? By your own accounts, the PS3 will likely be one of the few BD-Live compatible players on the market, and it's being sold for half of what other BR players (with less features) are being sold for.

I just dont get it ... :confused:
Yes, the bluray side is very slective about their definition of the word "subsidise". In fact, they're downright delusional :)

Talkstr8t I noticed your a Blu ray insider...in which way...do you work in the industry? maybe Sony?

One of the problems is where the studios turn to. I know the obvious answer is "HD DVD", but if anybody thinks the studios thought that the player count for HD DVD was going to end up where Toshiba's announcement would be something like, "more than 175k", I think they are mistaken. Obviously, Sony didn't hit what they were claiming. And I don't personally think there is much chance of them hitting even close to 6 million by the end of March. On the other hand, the HD DVD camp better pick up the pace if their player sales for the year in North America were under 200k.

--Darin

The 175k also included every kind of HD-DVD device out there. Including PCs, laptops, bare drives, anything that could possibly read a disc.

b2b

Talkstr8t I noticed your a Blu ray insider...in which way...do you work in the industry? maybe Sony?He has said he's not going to divulge his specific company here. Sun Microsystems is probably a good guess.

Yep.

I seriously think this CES has been VERY weak for HD DVD.Says the BR Defense Force... :p

I've had some cold feet on this war, but was able to get a PS3 about a month ago. Based on what I'm hearing about CES, I'm about to jump headlong into BD.You had no problem jumping into BR before, so is this like "born again BR" then? ;)

Back to the HD DVD Promotions group and HD DVD in general, is it me or are they now trying to mimic BD?That's rich!

After all - HD DVD has a working interactive system called HDi, which does Pip, Networking, and more. Bluray couldn't get something ready in time, so they end up with 3 different player profiles, the first of which is only available now, the third of which actually is able to do some of the same things that HDi can actually do.

So whose mimicking who?

1.)the HD-A20 with 1080P output. Hmmm, sounds like they are a little worried about BD's claiming 1080P outputs. All this does really is render the HD-A2 moot?!?!?!How blind you seem to be. The A2 was dangled in front of the BDA at $499, so the BDA thought they'd be really clever dropping the Samsung to $599 with 1080p, not realizing that Toshiba had the A20 up their sleeve.

The A20 has 1080p24, which the Samsung doesn't. Toshiba has made the BR guys look like muppets. If you don't recognize that the A2 is destined for MUCH cheaper prices, then you will be as surprised as the BDA :p

2.)The legendary triple layer HD51 disc. For months we've heard 30G is enough, and VC-1 will get the bitrates down. Now all of the sudden, they go and do this. Talk about being a day late and a dollar short. "Maybe by 4Q this year?" What a joke. Are current HD DVD people going to be worry if they're out of luck if this even makes it into the spec? Will they stop buying as a result?Nice FUD - But what is obvious to most other people here is that the HD DVD group has been working on the triple layer disc and testing various permutations. The fact that they have now one-upped the BD50 is hilarious. And "a day late and a dollar short" is a desparate attempt to downplay it. All of us know how early it is in the HD game still - my guess is that this HD 51 is a lot closer to the street than you think.

3.)Oh, and did you see the pics of the "secret" xbox360 w/ HMDI? Is this the "oneup" of the PS3? Funny, I thought Sony and the BDA had a flawed strategy with the PS3 BD strategy.Absolutely - Sony's PS3 strategy WAS indeed flawed. The cost of the BR component caused price increases and delays. However, Microsoft realized it didn't need to add HD DVD drives to the Xbox until the PS3 launched, giving them a lot more development time to make their response a better product. At the same time, MS was able to make the 360 a far better consumer value.

Meanwhile, the BD studios are hitting their stride with some great releases. Whereas 80+%of the 300 HD DVDs will also be available on BD. This is just amazing to me.You seem to leave out of your calculation the new studios that are about to announce HD DVD support. You also fail to realize that if Lions Gate is release VC1 to Xbox Live, that it is only a heartbeat away from releasing HD DVD's also.

I only have two complaints right now with CES from a BD standpoint. One, SONY PICTURES. What is wrong with them? You're asking me?

Two, Paramount. They flat out are the most risk averse studio of them all. Don't get me wrong, I like their product, but they are just not bullish at all. If this is how they are going to approach HD optical, then they shouldn't waste their time even showing up to CES IMHO. Get on the bus Paramount!!! Now you're insulting Paramount because you can't get your way and have them go Bluray-only? Hah!! :p

Anyway, congratulations to everyone here. We're going to get a lot of HD and some players.And a lot more people will be getting HD DVD movies ;) Good news for all!

I usually try to (unless I'm dealing with rdjam or a FUDding Amir),
I think most people here will back me on this - Amir is ALWAYS accurate in what he posts, except rare instances where he makes an honest mistake. His honesty and candour are well recognized.

So I find it difficult to accept your portrayal of him when I feel I can't say the same for you. Nevertheless, your colors have been more apparent lately, which is fine as you've declared your side quite clearly. But don't take it personally if others are on the other side.

The A20 has 1080p24, which the Samsung doesn't.You stated this as a fact, so can you show us where you got it. I don't recall seeing anything from Toshiba saying that it will have 1080p24 output.

--Darin

I think most people here will back me on this - Amir is ALWAYS accurate in what he posts, except rare instances where he makes an honest mistake. His honesty and candour are well recognized.

So I find it difficult to accept your portrayal of him when I feel I can't say the same for you. Nevertheless, your colors have been more apparent lately, which is fine as you've declared your side quite clearly. But don't take it personally if others are on the other side.

You really should take a peek at your sig with the "AVS White" skin... not a snide remark, but it looks "less than optimal".. ;)

b2b

I am seeing HD-DVD playing catch-up now! Just my opinion; please take it lightly :):forgive me if I demur :)

Downplayed 1080p, now trying to catch-up. Jury is still out on 1080p24.Downplayed? No they "played" the BR boys, making them think HD DVD would always promote 1080i, but surprising them with a $599 A20 that does both 1080p60 AND 1080p24. The second gen Samsung only does 1080p60.

MS downplayed HDMI and 1080p. Xbox360 with HDMI is (if it does come out) about playing catch-up.No - WHY would MS have o release an HDMI version of the 360 before Playstation 3 was on the market? Why should MS have released an HDMI xbox before HDMI 1.3 chips were even available? NOW that the PS3 has finally launched, the 360 AV will launch to fight it hand-to-hand with HDMI, and probably cheaper too. Very smart business strategy. BD fans sound scared, as they always pooh-poohed the possibility of an HDMI 360 - it's their worst nightmare...


Movie sales -- for the first time now, HD-DVD has to play catch-upSays you... HD DVD has been ahead for quite a while, and the very recent surge by BR has yet to stand the test of time - we shall see what the true situation is TWO month from now.

Profiles : It seems HD-DVD [DVD forum] will follow BDA's foot-steps if LG player gets an HD-DVD logo without full HDi support. My guess is HD-DVD is 'evolving' as time passes. I hope they finalize the profiles soon enough and let us know what they are."it seems" is your wishful thiking. HD DVD will not allow a non-compliant player to wear the HD DVD badge, since they actually have standards to uphold, unlike their BR counterparts :) I will not buy a dual-format player that skimps on HD DVD compatibility, so either they fix it, or bring another player that does. But, either way, they (LG) or others will have full HD DVD compatibility soon.

TL-51 : Playing catch-up. Big time! :D Having said that, if this 'science fiction' -- well, actually that would be BD50, this one is an amazing technological feat (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9392061&&#post9392061) (;)) -- does get adopted by DVD forum in HD-DVD spec, the technical differences between the formats will almost go away, at least from next year (sounds Blu-ray'ish, doesn't it?).Now this one really IS the worst nightmare of Bluray fans. Would you be even more scared if you were told that the Xbox HD DVD adddon can play HD 51? I bet you would be... :)
Last but not the least: CE support. I expected much more. But maybe I expected too much.I don't think you really did expect any at all, based on all your previous posts, at least ;) But the fact they got a list of new CE vendors, inlcuding ONKYO, is good news.

By the way sceasare, I am waiting to see more than 20 posts from you regarding the seemingly ad-hoc, undefined HD-DVD profiles. :p Just kidding. [I know this is just a conjecture]No, it's just FUD ;)

You stated this as a fact, so can you show us where you got it. I don't recall seeing anything from Toshiba saying that it will have 1080p24 output.

--Darin
It's a fact - the A20 will have 1080p60 and 1080p24, and advanced audio decoding.

You really should take a peek at your sig with the "AVS White" skin... not a snide remark, but it looks "less than optimal".. ;)

b2b
I have thanks, it looks fine ;)

It's a fact - the A20 will have 1080p60 and 1080p24, and advanced audio decoding.That didn't answer my question. Did you hear this behind the scenes, read it somewhere, or make it up? And when is the XA2 going to have 1080p24 output?

--Darin

Uninspired news?

I think the announcment of the Broadcom SOC with reference design for HD DVD is for the player and the format. It'll dramatically lower the cost of entry into the market, and with two manufacturers already public with their plans on to produce players with it.

That's FIVE new player vendors who announced at CES, with more coming:

http://on10.net/Blogs/benwagg/news-from-ces-item-1-new-players/

http://www.zhenjiangstar.com/starimages/SQKT-A4.jpg http://www.zhenjiangstar.com/pubimages/b1.jpg
http://www.zhenjiangstar.com/pubimages/b2.jpg http://www.zhenjiangstar.com/pubimages/b3.jpg
http://www.zhenjiangstar.com/pubimages/b4.jpg http://www.zhenjiangstar.com/pubimages/b5.jpg

Jiangsu Zhenjiang Star Group ??

http://www.zhenjiangstar.com/index.htm

Paint me uninspired... :confused:

b2b

http://www.zhenjiangstar.com/starimages/SQKT-A4.jpg http://www.zhenjiangstar.com/pubimages/b1.jpg
http://www.zhenjiangstar.com/pubimages/b2.jpg http://www.zhenjiangstar.com/pubimages/b3.jpg
http://www.zhenjiangstar.com/pubimages/b4.jpg http://www.zhenjiangstar.com/pubimages/b5.jpg

Jiangsu Zhenjiang Star Group ??

http://www.zhenjiangstar.com/index.htm

b2b
Ben, seriously man. Its embarassing to compare the above with the support of a major CE MNC.

I am not knocking the chinese for their manufacturing prowess. With labour that cheap, they should be cheap but the JZS group against even LG is a no-contest.

Hasn't anyone been surprised by Sony announcing they'd use AVC on Casino Royale?

Hasn't anyone been surprised by Sony announcing they'd use AVC on Casino Royale?Why would we be?

I've heard that it is much easier to add subliminal advertising for your products with AVC than with MPEG-2.

Okay, I admit that I made that one up. There isn't any more room for advertising in that movie. :)

BTW: I think this title is going to be huge for Blu-ray and I'm looking forward to it.

--Darin

Another treat for the HD-DVD fans...
All in all, however, execs professed themselves satisfied with the format's progress, and its efforts to compete against the rival Blu-Ray format. HD DVD has released 250 movies worldwide, and they expect to release 300 more in the year 2007, executives said. Some of the planned new releases in 2007 include Happy Feet, The Departed, and
Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire. They plan to re-master older flicks, too, like the Matrix trilogy, ScarFace, and the original Star Trek series. Best of all, a growing percentage of these titles are combo discs, easing the transition between HD DVD and DVD formats
http://news.yahoo.com/s/zd/20070108/tc_zd/198116

So much for the "cheaper disc" theory for HD-DVD... ;)

b2b

Hasn't anyone been surprised by Sony announcing they'd use AVC on Casino Royale?

Interested, yes. Surprised, no. Paidgeek said they would start producing titles with AVC pretty soon, so it isn't anything that is shocking. Most BD fans aren't quite as obsessed with an advanced codec choice, whereas HD-DVD really doesn't have any choice due to space and bandwidth constraint.

b2b

I don't understand this subsidy argument ... how is Toshiba Subsidizing an A1 or A2 any different than what Sony is doing with the PS3? By your own accounts, the PS3 will likely be one of the few BD-Live compatible players on the market, and it's being sold for half of what other BR players (with less features) are being sold for.

I just dont get it ... :confused:

Good question. I feel PS3 is a unique device in that it's not meant to compete with standalone BD players since it fills a niche where it will be used by people who typically would not purchase a $500 player anyways. The lack of IR remote and DVD upscaling probably deters a significant number of people who would repurpose PS3 solely as a BD playback device as well.

Hasn't anyone been surprised by Sony announcing they'd use AVC on Casino Royale?

They may well need to use AVC if these new interactivity features are using up more space on discs. 10 out of 13 announced BD50 titles are all under 2 hours in length.

Another treat for the HD-DVD fans...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/zd/20070108/tc_zd/198116

So much for the "cheaper disc" theory for HD-DVD... ;)

b2b

So much for being on top of things.

Judging by the $28.99 list price for Warner's first combo disk of 2007, Poseidon, and its $19.99 preorder price at amazon, and the $29.99 list price for Universals Half Baked, with a $23.95 preorder price at amazon, it seems safe to say that studios will be bringing combo disk prices more into line with regular HD-DVD prices. Brokeback Mountain also has a preorder price of $23.95.

Eventually people will stop parroting this nonsense that combo disks are way more expensive, but until then they'll just be wrong. :)

edited to add links showing list prices:
http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/poseidon.html
http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/halfbaked.html
http://www.amazon.com/Brokeback-Mountain-Combo-DVD-Standard/dp/B000K7VHSM/sr=1-55/qid=1168345964/ref=sr_1_55/102-2068991-7982562?ie=UTF8&s=dvd

Another treat for the HD-DVD fans...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/zd/20070108/tc_zd/198116

So much for the "cheaper disc" theory for HD-DVD... ;)

b2b

actually, two discs for the price of one essentially makes the less expensive talking point even stronger ;)

i'm sur when bd comes out with its hybrid then it will be the revolutionary breakthrogh that bd is known for...some time in the future ;)

I think the biggest mistake MS made was not selling a HDMI 360 with hd drive built in.

Either it was sloppy strategy (assuming they wanted HD to survive and not just delay high def disc adoption) OR they knew all along (without full consensus) that BD would win and just wanted to drag out the war long enough for high def movie downloads to overtake movie discs.

Thus no point in "charging 200 bucks for something that might be the next betamax".

HD may survive anyways but it would have flourished a whole lot more if the 10M (or even 5M) 360s sold had had HD-DVD drives in them.

Given that such an option is not free of other implications (delayed introduction, higher console cost, supply constraints, etc...), and there being no concrete evidence that the "PS effect" has the attach rates necessary to sway the format war\*e results, AND the relatively wide-spread belief that the console war this time around may have the 360 with a lead that the PS3 will have a hard time supassing, I think it was absolutely the right strategy for a late '05 launch.

* See "PS2 & DVD"

I am seeing HD-DVD playing catch-up now! Just my opinion; please take it lightly :):

{snip}

By the way sceasare, I am waiting to see more than 20 posts from you regarding the seemingly ad-hoc, undefined HD-DVD profiles. :p Just kidding. [I know this is just a conjecture]



If there becomes a ratified standard with a plan to introduce capability that will leave early adopters "stranded" without consumer education and disclosure, you can count on it. ;)

Speaking of making a stink... I'd like to hear more about the "seldom mentioned high-bandwidth secondary video" feature of HD DVD that Talk has referred to. I asked previously if this was one and the same as the network-sourced video capability I've seen mentioned? (I seem to recall that 15Mbps was the limit for that??)

What is this called?
Is it a required feature in all HD DVD players?

Talk, you've mentioned it more than once... here's your chance to distract me in another direction... spill the beans man!

Ben, seriously man. Its embarassing to compare the above with the support of a major CE MNC.

That is because you are prejudiced ...


I am not knocking the chinese for their manufacturing prowess. With labour that cheap, they should be cheap but the JZS group against even LG is a no-contest.

Thats strange considered monst of these "CE MNC" majors use Chinese manufacturers to get their stuff manufactured ... why even xbox or ipod is made in China.

BTW, what is the point of overpriced stuff from "CE MNC"s which don't sell ?

Why would we be?

I've heard that it is much easier to add subliminal advertising for your products with AVC than with MPEG-2.

Okay, I admit that I made that one up. There isn't any more room for advertising in that movie. :)

BTW: I think this title is going to be huge for Blu-ray and I'm looking forward to it.

--Darin

And quite frankly, it's that title that has me in the market for a BR player more than any other. I've already had friends request that one for a movie nite...

Now if I could just sort out what they will be able to do... :(

Hasn't anyone been surprised by Sony announcing they'd use AVC on Casino Royale?

Yes, and pleasantly surprised! :) Can hardly wait for that title.

Mission accomlished!

Lionsgate Press Release (http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=109&STORY=/www/story/01-08-2007/0004501965&EDATE=)

THE DESCENT is the first disc of either format to employ Picture in
Picture, taking advantage of the full capacity of the disc, as well as the
advanced BD Java Language that allows for seamless branching of multiple
video and audio stream.

Poetic logic licenses aside, the first on "either format"???

Another BD lie

Mission accomlished!

Lionsgate Press Release (http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=109&STORY=/www/story/01-08-2007/0004501965&EDATE=)



Poetic logic licenses aside, the first on "either format"???

they certainly are the first in either format to offer such a kludge...i mean innovative solution ;)

One of the problems is where the studios turn to. I know the obvious answer is "HD DVD", but if anybody thinks the studios thought that the player count for HD DVD was going to end up where Toshiba's announcement would be something like, "more than 175k", I think they are mistaken. Obviously, Sony didn't hit what they were claiming. And I don't personally think there is much chance of them hitting even close to 6 million by the end of March. On the other hand, the HD DVD camp better pick up the pace if their player sales for the year in North America were under 200k.

--Darin

Agreed ... it's a new format though ... it's going to be tough ... the good news is, that those buying the HD-DVD players are buying tons of titles with them. If we look at standalone vs standalone, it's going to be tough on both camps.

The 175k also included every kind of HD-DVD device out there. Including PCs, laptops, bare drives, anything that could possibly read a disc.

b2b

First of all, that's just speculation ... second of all ... that would make the attach rates even *higher* for the standalone movie players. :p

Another treat for the HD-DVD fans...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/zd/20070108/tc_zd/198116

So much for the "cheaper disc" theory for HD-DVD... ;)

b2b

Dunno ... I picked up all my Combo discs for $22 including TAX and Shipping ... and the regular discs for about $15-16. Most of the Blu-Ray Discs I've come across are more or equal to at least the $22 price point, and they're not combo. Plus, isn't Sony subsidizing the cost of the media or something? Sony is really taking it on the chin to make sure Blu-Ray wins ... they have everything to lose ... didn't someone mention 'Hail Mary Pass'? :p

They may well need to use AVC if these new interactivity features are using up more space on discs. 10 out of 13 announced BD50 titles are all under 2 hours in length.

Sounds like BR is getting more 'PiP' Features! :p

Pulled this from mikemorel's post in the 'news' thread, but this seems kind of telling of Microsoft's TRUE stance in this format war:

"Mr Majidimehr predicted that the lifespan of both formats would also be less than the current DVD format.

It has lasted 10 years with great success but Mr Majidimehr said the technology would be superseded by developments in online delivery of hi-def content."

(This is not an attack on 'Amirm', just an observation that kind of jumped out when reading these CES Summary notes)

It has been my personal opinion that Microsoft is using the Hi Def war all along as a way to stall Hi Def disc penetration into the home by causing confusion as well as to use it as a sandbox for playing with VC-1 in order to get hi def content bitrates low enough to set up and support an online delivery service (such as their current one through Xbox Live).

Pulled this from mikemorel's post in the 'news' thread, but this seems kind of telling of Microsoft's TRUE stance in this format war:

"Mr Majidimehr predicted that the lifespan of both formats would also be less than the current DVD format.

It has lasted 10 years with great success but Mr Majidimehr said the technology would be superseded by developments in online delivery of hi-def content."

(This is not an attack on 'Amirm', just an observation that kind of jumped out when reading these CES Summary notes)

It has been my personal opinion that Microsoft is using the Hi Def war all along as a way to stall Hi Def disc penetration into the home by causing confusion as well as to use it as a sandbox for playing with VC-1 in order to get hi def content bitrates low enough to set up and support an online delivery service (such as their current one through Xbox Live).

There is nothing wrong with accepting reality. You really think either format is will last till 2016? no.

Speaking of making a stink... I'd like to hear more about the "seldom mentioned high-bandwidth secondary video" feature of HD DVD that Talk has referred to. I asked previously if this was one and the same as the network-sourced video capability I've seen mentioned? (I seem to recall that 15Mbps was the limit for that??) What is this called?
Is it a required feature in all HD DVD players?
The technical name for streams coming from other storage is "S-EVOB" or secondary extended video object (yes, engineers named it, not marketing people :)). That stream can have its own 15 mbit/sec bandwidth which is above and beyond the 30 mbit/sec which the primary stream on disc can have. When a secondary stream is included on disc, it is called P-EVOB or Primary EVOB. To date, all content in HD DVD has used P-EVOB (e.g. Pip). What we showed at CES was digital download to secondary storage being played by the Toshiba players as S-EVOB streams (integrated with HDi into menus).

S-EVOB is mandatory in HD DVD hence the reason it plays even in first gen Toshiba players.

Note that it is not necessary to even store S-EVOB. You can fetch it from a server and play it. So assuming you have the network bandwidth, storage in the device is not a limitation.

Talk, you've mentioned it more than once... here's your chance to distract me in another direction... spill the beans man!
Yes, I love to know what he is talking about now. Because if it is the above, well, I am not sure what to say, given our live demos at CES on shipping hardware.

Mission accomlished!

Lionsgate Press Release (http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=109&STORY=/www/story/01-08-2007/0004501965&EDATE=)



Poetic logic licenses aside, the first on "either format"???
Very disappointing to see how delusional the BD fellas are.

(Yes, I am going out of my way to avoid calling LG liars, since I'm sure this release was penned by some rabid sophomore who really believes that fake, pre-rendered PiP is a "first" when real PiP has already been released on multiple HD DVD titles... :rolleyes:

BTW - I am also SHOCKED that the Bluray camp did not announce hybrid DVD/BR discs at this CES. This was really their last chance to be able to prove that this can actually be done on Bluray, as they'd claimed in the past.

In my view, this is now proof that it can't be done on Bluray...

Ooh ooh, you mean like the Sony and Pioneer and their emperor's new BD-J? Mandatory BD-J, I was led to believe by you.Sony and Pioneer have BD-J in their players. They play LXG and other BD-J titles fine. There is a bug which prevents The Descent from playing, and it will be corrected in the next firmware upgrades. Don't make this out to be bigger than it is.

Pulled this from mikemorel's post in the 'news' thread, but this seems kind of telling of Microsoft's TRUE stance in this format war:

"Mr Majidimehr predicted that the lifespan of both formats would also be less than the current DVD format.

It has lasted 10 years with great success but Mr Majidimehr said the technology would be superseded by developments in online delivery of hi-def content."

(This is not an attack on 'Amirm', just an observation that kind of jumped out when reading these CES Summary notes)

It has been my personal opinion that Microsoft is using the Hi Def war all along as a way to stall Hi Def disc penetration into the home by causing confusion as well as to use it as a sandbox for playing with VC-1 in order to get hi def content bitrates low enough to set up and support an online delivery service (such as their current one through Xbox Live).


didn't billy gates himself indicate that ms believed download was the way of the future...i believe he said that some time ago too.

Yes, I love to know what he is talking about now. Because if it is the above, well, I am not sure what to say, given our live demos at CES on shipping hardware.Amir, are you denying that there is an optional feature in HD-DVD which allows for secondary video (from disc) at a higher bitrate than the 4Mpbs (as I recall) that the mandatory spec requires? You've mentioned it in the past, so your sudden forgetfulness strikes me as very, very misleading behavior in your post. Check with Ben if you've actually forgotten all past reference to it; he has mentioned it recently.

So much for being on top of things.

Judging by the $28.99 list price for Warner's first combo disk of 2007, Poseidon, and its $19.99 preorder price at amazon, and the $29.99 list price for Universals Half Baked, with a $23.95 preorder price at amazon, it seems safe to say that studios will be bringing combo disk prices more into line with regular HD-DVD prices. Brokeback Mountain also has a preorder price of $23.95.

Eventually people will stop parroting this nonsense that combo disks are way more expensive, but until then they'll just be wrong. :)

edited to add links showing list prices:
http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/poseidon.html
http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/halfbaked.html
http://www.amazon.com/Brokeback-Mountain-Combo-DVD-Standard/dp/B000K7VHSM/sr=1-55/qid=1168345964/ref=sr_1_55/102-2068991-7982562?ie=UTF8&s=dvd

Well actually I was speaking of the "theory" that the big advantage for HD-DVD were discs that were cheaper to make. Combo discs are 2.5 times more expensive than DVD.

b2b

Mission accomlished!
THE DESCENT is the first disc of either format to employ Picture in
Picture, taking advantage of the full capacity of the disc, as well as the
advanced BD Java Language that allows for seamless branching of multiple
video and audio stream.
Poetic logic licenses aside, the first on "either format"???I had no knowledge of this press release, and am not defending what could be misleading wording, but I suspect they are referring to the first disc of either format to support all of these features: PiP, using the full disc capacity, and seamless branching.

No secret that most companies on boths sides of the formats are already looking towards further advanced technology

How blind you seem to be. The A2 was dangled in front of the BDA at $499, so the BDA thought they'd be really clever dropping the Samsung to $599 with 1080p, not realizing that Toshiba had the A20 up their sleeve. The A20 has 1080p24, which the Samsung doesn't.Oh, yes, I'm sure all those people with very high-end displays capable of supporting 1080p24 input are going to cheap out with the A20 instead of the XA2 or one of the potential future Onkyo or Meridian players.
But what is obvious to most other people here is that the HD DVD group has been working on the triple layer disc and testing various permutations. The fact that they have now one-upped the BD50 is hilarious. How have they one-upped? By one more GB, but at the cost of compatibility with the entire installed base, plus the fact we have no idea if it will get through the specification process and be reasonably manufacturable? There will be hundreds of BD50 titles out before a single TL51 is released. Oh, and did you notice that TDK is showing 200GB Blu-ray discs at CES? They have had that technology longer than Toshiba has had TL51.
my guess is that this HD 51 is a lot closer to the street than you think.Wishful thinking.
You seem to leave out of your calculation the new studios that are about to announce HD DVD support. You also fail to realize that if Lions Gate is release VC1 to Xbox Live, that it is only a heartbeat away from releasing HD DVD's also.Wishful thinking.
HD DVD will not allow a non-compliant player to wear the HD DVD badge, since they actually have standards to uphold, unlike their BR counterpartsLG has repeatedly said "no HDi on this player". Yet there's an HD DVD logo prominently displayed. Deal with it.
Now this one really IS the worst nightmare of Bluray fans.Oh yes, HD DVD being able to support one more GB than Blu-ray, but only on new players, and only if studios decide to use it knowing that old players can't use it, and still having support from a whopping three studios, is surely keeping us all awake at night quivering under our blankies.

Oh yes, HD DVD being able to support one more GB than Blu-ray, but only on new players, and only if studios decide to use it knowing that old players can't use it, and still having support from a whopping three studios, is surely keeping us all awake at night quivering under our blankies.
Do you know this for a fact or are you speculating? If you're just guessing that the older players won't be able to be FW upgraded to support the TL51, doesn't that amount to FUD since you're stating it as fact? If it's not FUD, please enlighten us as to how you know they won't work with legacy equipment.

I recall an article from last Fall where a Toshiba engineer was quoted as saying something about the NEC drive used in the A1/XA1 not having the best/newest error correction or something to that effect as compared to the Toshiba drive used in the 360 add-on and A2/XA2. The newer Toshiba drives should be able to read the new TL discs, whereas it might be iffy for the original NEC drives, IIRC.

Guys why even discuss the tri-layer HD DVD disc?

It's just proof-of-concept right now; it'll be late '07 or early '08 before we even know if it's being adopted into the spec... and then they need to actually start replicating the thing too. Come that time, I have little doubt that BD50 replication will be less expensive than TL51 replication - and probably workable at much greater volumes as well to start.

IMO, the TL51 announcement is better for Blu-ray than it is for HD DVD, in that it draws attention to the storage capacities as being something Toshiba feels less than 100% secure in at present.

Do you know this for a fact or are you speculating? If you're just guessing that the older players won't be able to be FW upgraded to support the TL51, doesn't that amount to FUD since you're stating it as fact? If it's not FUD, please enlighten us as to how you know they won't work with legacy equipment.

Just how many times does Toshiba have to put this science fiction "Duke Nukem", vapor disc crapola out before people start to realize they are being suckered.
The next big question is this 50GB TL disc "really, really and we promise this time for true" going to get added to the HD-DVD spec ?? Remember the last go when the 45GB was floated out there, it was being sold as a "done deal" like all they had to do was sign the papers.
Quote:
Or for the most capacity, just pile on more high-capacity layers. In May 2005, Toshiba announced a triple-layer HD DVD disc at Media-Tech. The HD DVD 45 has a capacity of 45 GB (12 hours). The draft specification for the format has been submitted to the DVD Forum, and should be approved "later this year," says Knox.

Knox reports that triple-layer demo material should be available in the summer, and that existing players can read the format, requiring only a firmware change. The discs could be available in 2005, he says, "although the very beginning of 2006 is more likely for volume production."

http://www.manifest-tech.com/media_...multi_layer.htm

Are we going to hear another years worth of rumors like we had for the 45GB just for the sake of spin ?

If you want 50gb with 48mbps bandwidth they're in the stores right now

b2b

Do you know this for a fact or are you speculating? If you're just guessing that the older players won't be able to be FW upgraded to support the TL51, doesn't that amount to FUD since you're stating it as fact? If it's not FUD, please enlighten us as to how you know they won't work with legacy equipment.

I'm guessing he's using his experience of the BDA where they leave the legacy hardware in the dust. :p

it'll be late '07 or early '08 before we even know if it's being adopted into the spec... and then they need to actually start replicating the thing too.
I know it may come as a surprise to you, but generally replication preceeds spec approval. Usually all we need is a copy of the draft spec.

Guys why even discuss the tri-layer HD DVD disc?

It's just proof-of-concept right now; it'll be late '07 or early '08 before we even know if it's being adopted into the spec... and then they need to actually start replicating the thing too. Come that time, I have little doubt that BD50 replication will be less expensive than TL51 replication - and probably workable at much greater volumes as well to start.

IMO, the TL51 announcement is better for Blu-ray than it is for HD DVD, in that it draws attention to the storage capacities as being something Toshiba feels less than 100% secure in at present.

Agreed ... Except I disagree that the annoucement is better for Blu-Ray ... they annouced TL45 years ago. Like you said, it's all moot until/unless it becomes part of the spec. ;)

No, it proves my theory. Neither of those companies compete with Toshiba on the low-end, where I've said Toshiba's subsidization tactic would deter others from entering the market. If either player is under $700 I'll be happy to acknowledge I was utterly wrong. Otherwise the theory is entirely valid, since no one is claiming Toshiba is subsidizing their higher-end models.

This may be your new theory, but that wasn't what you used to post. You used to claim that no one on any end of the market would make players for HD DVD because Toshiba was under-cutting them. You never said, "sure, there will be mid and high end CE players, but there weren't be any at the lower end." In fact, the Onkyo will be about the same price as the Pioneers and Panny's, yet you claimed that the Pioneers and Pannys weren't entering the market because of the low cost of the Toshiba. You were wrong, though I doubt you have the character to admit it.

You're new theory may have some validing (although it looks to be irrelevent, given the incoming Chinese for the low end of the market), but your old theory was pure fud.

Guys why even discuss the tri-layer HD DVD disc?

It's just proof-of-concept right now; it'll be late '07 or early '08 before we even know if it's being adopted into the spec... and then they need to actually start replicating the thing too. Come that time, I have little doubt that BD50 replication will be less expensive than TL51 replication - and probably workable at much greater volumes as well to start.

IMO, the TL51 announcement is better for Blu-ray than it is for HD DVD, in that it draws attention to the storage capacities as being something Toshiba feels less than 100% secure in at present.

This is just another attempt by Toshiba to keep people stringing along with a optical disc format that was brain dead out of the gate. This proves that Tosh is just making stuff up as they go along and the early adopter be damned.

b2b

Oh, yes, I'm sure all those people with very high-end displays capable of supporting 1080p24 input are going to cheap out with the A20 instead of the XA2 or one of the potential future Onkyo or Meridian players.

I'm sure you know that p24 displays are moving down the chain from the very high end, to maybe just the upper end where several hundred dollars makes a bigger difference?

How have they one-upped? By one more GB, but at the cost of compatibility with the entire installed base, plus the fact we have no idea if it will get through the specification process and be reasonably manufacturable?

I'm sure your company will do everything it can do to expedite the process :D

There will be hundreds of BD50 titles out before a single TL51 is released. Oh, and did you notice that TDK is showing 200GB Blu-ray discs at CES? They have had that technology longer than Toshiba has had TL51.

Depending on the schedule, hundreds could be very optimistic. AFAIK, those 200GB are not BD-Rom. And of course, 50GB BD-Rs were out long before the BD-Roms were out. But of course, you already know that.

Oh yes, HD DVD being able to support one more GB than Blu-ray, but only on new players, and only if studios decide to use it knowing that old players can't use it, and still having support from a whopping three studios, is surely keeping us all awake at night quivering under our blankies.
It sure sounds like you are very worried to me. From the background noise floating around, it looks like only the original A1/XA1's may not be able to play TL. There's only innuendo and FUD that the later models won't be able to play them so far, despite your rather definitive statement to the contrary. Are you willing to bet (like in a previous exchange with Rdjam) that you are right, or are you just blowing more smoke.

Guys why even discuss the tri-layer HD DVD disc?

It's just proof-of-concept right now; it'll be late '07 or early '08 before we even know if it's being adopted into the spec... and then they need to actually start replicating the thing too. Come that time, I have little doubt that BD50 replication will be less expensive than TL51 replication - and probably workable at much greater volumes as well to start.

IMO, the TL51 announcement is better for Blu-ray than it is for HD DVD, in that it draws attention to the storage capacities as being something Toshiba feels less than 100% secure in at present.

I kind of agree. It looks like mosty a PR announcement, but it does about as much damage to HD DVD as it does good.

I know it may come as a surprise to you, but generally replication preceeds spec approval. Usually all we need is a copy of the draft spec.

Right... but that's replication as in BD200 replication; that's not the same thing.

Which is to say, you seem to be in the industry - when would your company pay out to upgrade to the equipment required for pressing said TL discs? Before it's part of the spec... or after?

Guys why even discuss the tri-layer HD DVD disc?

It's just proof-of-concept right now; it'll be late '07 or early '08 before we even know if it's being adopted into the spec... and then they need to actually start replicating the thing too. Come that time, I have little doubt that BD50 replication will be less expensive than TL51 replication - and probably workable at much greater volumes as well to start.

IMO, the TL51 announcement is better for Blu-ray than it is for HD DVD, in that it draws attention to the storage capacities as being something Toshiba feels less than 100% secure in at present.

Worse. Wouldn't you wait for confirmation that the HD DVD player you're interested in would be compatible?

Gary

I know it may come as a surprise to you, but generally replication preceeds spec approval. Usually all we need is a copy of the draft spec.

That's what they said the last time too.. :)
Or for the most capacity, just pile on more high-capacity layers. In May 2005, Toshiba announced a triple-layer HD DVD disc at Media-Tech. The HD DVD 45 has a capacity of 45 GB (12 hours). The draft specification for the format has been submitted to the DVD Forum, and should be approved "later this year," says Knox.

Knox reports that triple-layer demo material should be available in the summer, and that existing players can read the format, requiring only a firmware change. The discs could be available in 2005, he says, "although the very beginning of 2006 is more likely for volume production."


http://www.manifest-tech.com/media_dvd/dvd_hd_multi_layer.htm

b2b

I kind of agree. It looks like mosty a PR announcement, but it does about as much damage to HD DVD as it does good.

The sole purpose of the TL-51GB is to get the mouse. But last time, they only had the bait not the trap cage. If the mouse still doesn't fall for it, it will go away just as TL-45GB

That's what they said the last time too.. :)
b2b

Disney didn't buy it and thus Toshiba didn't provide the machine for Cinram to test. The rest is history.

The sole purpose of the TL-51GB is to get the mouse. But last time, they only had the bait not the trap cage. If the mouse still doesn't fall for it, it will go away just as TL-45GB

I hate to point this out, but right now the "Mouse" is already settled in it's 50GB BD "home" and is likely testing BD-J code on something that HD-DVD will never have, the PS3.

I guess they would give TL-51 a look if Tosh said they would add Java application support to the HD-DVD spec. :)

b2b

Disney didn't buy it and thus Toshiba didn't provide the machine for Cinram to test. The rest is history.

History has a tendency to repeat itself... ;)

b2b

I think HD51 is the step in the right direction for HD-DVD, especially along with 1.5x speed to get the extra bandwidth [if they are sincere about it]. Compatibility is a big issue, but I think early adopters will get over it; they always do. :) Hopefully, recent drives will be able to read these discs at 1.5x (I have a feeling that these recent drives may have been over-designed for such a possibility). Of course, this requires a lot of wishful thinking, but I am optimistic.

I am more interested in knowing if firmware updates can increase the drive speeds to 1.5x (barring the very first ones). If they can do that, then that will be great.

If we are heading for dual format future (foreseeable future), I want both formats to have equal technical strengths as much as possible so that one doesn't hold back the other.

They may have a short term negative effect since some may want to wait, but in the long term, this will be good for HD-DVD, IMO. Now let's see if Disney buys this or not.

I think HD51 is the step in the right direction for HD-DVD, especially along with 1.5x speed to get the extra bandwidth [if they are sincere about it].I think we should be careful about assuming the 1.5x spin rate. Amir had "I believe" on his comment about it, it seems to have become gospel to some here, and I haven't seen any confirmation that upping the spin rate is actually part of the deal with these discs. I hope it is, but wouldn't bank on a comment like that one.

--Darin

^^^I did say it requires wishful thinking, and that I am hopeful. I am.

Beause of massive BR advertising:

I wonder how many BR buyers are even aware of the alternative.

Conversly, I wonder how many HD DVD buyers are aware of the alternative.

How about somebody with more guts than I've got standing outside a store and asking!

Dave

http://www.zhenjiangstar.com/pubimages/b4.jpg

b2b

I love lamp.

I love lamp.

Looking at all the stuff that outfit sells (nails, saw blades, light bulbs) it would seem more likely to find their players at Ace Hardware or Home Depot rather than Best Buy or Curcuit City.. :D

b2b

History has a tendency to repeat itself... ;)

b2b

You'd better hope not: Betamax, MiniDisc, Memory Stick, UMD ... etc ... :p

Looking at all the stuff that outfit sells (nails, saw blades, light bulbs) it would seem more likely to find their players at Ace Hardware or Home Depot rather than Best Buy or Curcuit City.. :D

b2b

Great, cause that is where J6P and I shop. :p

The technical name for streams coming from other storage is "S-EVOB" or secondary extended video object (yes, engineers named it, not marketing people :)). That stream can have its own 15 mbit/sec bandwidth which is above and beyond the 30 mbit/sec which the primary stream on disc can have. When a secondary stream is included on disc, it is called P-EVOB or Primary EVOB. To date, all content in HD DVD has used P-EVOB (e.g. Pip). What we showed at CES was digital download to secondary storage being played by the Toshiba players as S-EVOB streams (integrated with HDi into menus).

S-EVOB is mandatory in HD DVD hence the reason it plays even in first gen Toshiba players.

Note that it is not necessary to even store S-EVOB. You can fetch it from a server and play it. So assuming you have the network bandwidth, storage in the device is not a limitation.


Yes, I love to know what he is talking about now. Because if it is the above, well, I am not sure what to say, given our live demos at CES on shipping hardware.

Excellent, thanks Amir.

Talk, is this what you were referring to when you mentioned the "seldom discussed secondary video" feature, and implied was optional?

The technical name for streams coming from other storage is "S-EVOB" or secondary extended video object (yes, engineers named it, not marketing people :)). That stream can have its own 15 mbit/sec bandwidth which is above and beyond the 30 mbit/sec which the primary stream on disc can have. When a secondary stream is included on disc, it is called P-EVOB or Primary EVOB. To date, all content in HD DVD has used P-EVOB (e.g. Pip). What we showed at CES was digital download to secondary storage being played by the Toshiba players as S-EVOB streams (integrated with HDi into menus).

S-EVOB is mandatory in HD DVD hence the reason it plays even in first gen Toshiba players.

Note that it is not necessary to even store S-EVOB. You can fetch it from a server and play it. So assuming you have the network bandwidth, storage in the device is not a limitation.


Yes, I love to know what he is talking about now. Because if it is the above, well, I am not sure what to say, given our live demos at CES on shipping hardware.

Also, Amir.. any chance you are aware of video of this demo? Or a detailed description of it?

Again, thanks.

Guys why even discuss the tri-layer HD DVD disc?

It's just proof-of-concept right now; it'll be late '07 or early '08 before we even know if it's being adopted into the spec... and then they need to actually start replicating the thing too. Come that time, I have little doubt that BD50 replication will be less expensive than TL51 replication - and probably workable at much greater volumes as well to start.

IMO, the TL51 announcement is better for Blu-ray than it is for HD DVD, in that it draws attention to the storage capacities as being something Toshiba feels less than 100% secure in at present.

I agree. Until discs are ratified as standards for the format, they are just lab experiments. I won't hold "new" technologies against either side until they are incorproated into the product roadmap, and I see how they plan on handling me as a consumer for the transition.

Universal getting tired of holding back the tide of Blu ?? ;)
In a rather surprising move, primary HD DVD backer Universal Studios Home Entertainment confirmed today that they will be making no major title announcements at this year's Consumer Electronics Show, despite the formidable presence of all major studios supporting rival format Blu-ray.

Universal, the sole major Hollywood studio to be supporting HD DVD exclusively, was expected to bringing out its big guns for 2007 at CES -- or at least make enough new announcements to dazzle the early adopters who have been passionately backing the format thus far.
http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Universal/CES/CES:_No_New_HD_DVD_Announcements_from_Universal/429

http://www.arkarts.com/childrens_theatre/images/season/aac_childrens_theatre_dutchboy_lg.jpg

b2b

didn't billy gates himself indicate that ms believed download was the way of the future...i believe he said that some time ago too.

So did the Katuragi. When this was mentioned last time I provided the links ...

BTW, all companies try to look into the future and base their policies on what they think is the market reality. Atleast, thats what they are supposed to do ...

Universal's no show at CES is the big news. Some people are just waking up... :o

So did the Katuragi. When this was mentioned last time I provided the links ...

BTW, all companies try to look into the future and base their policies on what they think is the market reality. Atleast, thats what they are supposed to do ...

yup, i was just pointing out that amir didn't make this pronouncement on behalf of ms nor was it new info...amir was simply repeating what ms the company has already stated...

Sony is really taking it on the chin to make sure Blu-Ray wins ... they have everything to lose ... didn't someone mention 'Hail Mary Pass'? :p
Better to take a long shot one believes in and (hopefully) heroically win than sit on the sidelines and watch the world go by, while quietly hoping neither side wins.

Sony stock, anyone?

IMO, the TL51 announcement is better for Blu-ray than it is for HD DVD, in that it draws attention to the storage capacities as being something Toshiba feels less than 100% secure in at present.
Agreed

Sony stock, anyone?

Wowza! Sony up 6+% today, as per my local radio station after-market roundup ... maybe this helped ...

http://today.reuters.com/news/articlebusiness.aspx?type=telecomm&storyID=nT214961&from=business

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601080&sid=amlYZ1.Syy6I&refer=asia

Spin that ... maybe they had a pre-announcement of the non-announcement from Universal? :)

Wowza! Sony up 6+% today, as per my local radio station after-market roundup ... maybe this helped ...

http://today.reuters.com/news/articlebusiness.aspx?type=telecomm&storyID=nT214961&from=business

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601080&sid=amlYZ1.Syy6I&refer=asia

Spin that ... maybe they had a pre-announcement of the non-announcement from Universal? :)
Damn.. the jump is starting and I havent bought the stock yet.

i missed the apple boom due to inaction After predicting it.. not again, no way.

They closed @ $46.40 today ... I'm going to go with buying a few put options though ... :)

Format neutrality is for the pusillanimous.

Ahh, so by definition then fanboyism is brave and courageous.

The format neutral thread is full of people who've shelled out big $$$ for two (or more!) players and don't mind spending more $$$ on movies they may eventually have to replace.


360+hd+PS3 about the same give or take as a single standalone bd player but I'm curious why would anyone need to replace hd movies unless the original versions were of poor quality?


Then, they sit around, congratulate themselves on how special and "fair" they are and wonder why everyone else isn't doing the same.

Hmm, that is pretty bad being 'special' & 'fair'. So what do format zealots congratulate :o themselves on?

Better to take a long shot one believes in and (hopefully) heroically win than sit on the sidelines and watch the world go by, while quietly hoping neither side wins.

Sony stock, anyone?

Stock ? You sound more like a Las Vegas kind of guy :p

http://today.reuters.com/news/articlebusiness.aspx?type=telecomm&storyID=nT214961&from=business

Spin that ... maybe they had a pre-announcement of the non-announcement from Universal? :)

I read the whole reuters article - nothing about hidef is mentioned. So, who is spinning ?

So what do format zealots congratulate themselves on? Is it zealotry to accept Newton's Laws of physics as being accurate at non-relativistic energies or is it just rational? Is it laudable to claim that both Evolution and Creationism should be taught in science classes just to settle controversy?

I read the whole reuters article - nothing about hidef is mentioned. So, who is spinning ?



Sony's stock goes up and down depending on how their LCD's are shipping and how their industrial electronics are selling.

Toshiba's stock moves whenever someone shows interest in one of their new mini-nuclear reactors.

And Microsoft's stock fluctuates (mildly) whenever Bill and Melinda decide to sell a few more million shares to cure another disease or five (seriously, the work they do is awesome).

People giving or taking stock advice based on the hi-def wars don't deserve to hold onto the money they are "investing."

And what is up with Universal?

More players for HD-DVD, well yeah good - not as good as if Panasonic flipped but still.
TL-51 - seems like a weird time to announce R&D. Would be huge if they announced it was going in the spec and titles will have it in months, but right now weird. If it works, great - any technology advancement is good. Don't know why it is being lauded by rdjm as the second coming though.....

But Universal?? WTF???? At first I thought, 'well I guess that means they are going neutral' but then why not announce more titles for HD-DVD now? Somehow I doubt they are switching. Somehow I doubt they will suddenly wait for TL51.

So whaaaa??

I'm going to make a concerted effort to provide a format neutral view of CES. Keep in mind It's possible that some of the information I was given is incorrect. Please feel free to call me out if you see anything unfair or inaccurate.

As I walked into the central hall of the Las Vegas convention center, the first thing I saw was the large TI DLP booth. Nice big booth, great displays prime location. As I walked past TI mooving into the hall I came to LG next. They have a big display space (similar size to all the other major players) and front and center is the new LG universal player with a big banner above with Blu-Ray and HD-DVD. As others have posted this player does not support HDi but does have BD-J and a network port. No plans for BD-Live or HDi in the future.

I spent a decent amount of time with all of the major display manufacturers. My major point of interest was flat panel displays capable of displaying 1080p24, something that I assume others here are interested in as well.

Pioneer is front and center on this. They have a wall in their display booth educating people as to why they should care about 24fps display capability. Kudos to Pioneer for doing this. Unfortunately most of their panels can't do 1920x1080 native resolution. The exception is the PRO-FHD1. They were also showing their replacement for the PRO-FHD1 which they claim will acheive SED type performance levels.

Other displays that will support 1080p24 input include the latest Panasonic commercial displays (but not consumer displays). Toshibas has a new line of LCDs coming in the June time frame. Sharp has displays coming in February. LG is showing 120Hz LCD which I'm pretty sure accept 1080p24. Samsung is saying new models later this year will. Sony did not provide any feedback on this other than to say their projectors can do it. If someone knows otherwise, please chime in. I think you get the picture, 1080p24 input and 120Hz output are showing up all over the place on LCDs. Personally I like the Sharp.

Blu-Ray certainly has a broad presence in the central hall. This is where all the big CE's are that are backing Blu-Ray, so each of them is showing their player along with the Blu-Ray booth. In contrast HD-DVD had their booth Toshiba and the Microsoft booth in the central hall. LG was neutral ground. Blu-ray's marketing message is more agressive. Their booth has a presesntation and part of the message is Blu-Ray is better than HD-DVD. They were also passing out a marketing publication called Blu-Ray today. The title story is "Blu-Ray Victory Inevitable." One item I found interesting was that in their presentation they said that the peak maximum Blu-Ray bandwidth is 40mbps. The HD-DVD booth does not have any group presentation format. It's simply lots of panels playing movies with people answering questions. They also brought in the HD-DVD demo truck for people interested in seeing HD-DVD projected on a large screen.

Moving to the south hall you get into the Microsoft and Intel stomping grounds. You'll find HD-DVD at Microsoft, Intel and HP. Microsoft and Intel are both showing HDi demos. One interesting conclusion I came to is that HTPCs are deffinitely becoming serious and I plan to build one before the end of this year. As good as Xbox360 and PS3 look, it doesn't compare to what a PC can generate with a high end GPU on a 1080p display. With universal optical drives, HDMI equipped Video cards and 1TB hard drives coming to market, things are getting interesting.

That's all for now, I'll try and post again later.

Universal's no show at CES is the big news. Some people are just waking up... :o
Sorry but what are you talking about? Universal heads the US HD DVD promotion group. Craig Kornblau gave the keynote at HD DVD event. They and other HD DVD studios committed to releasing another 300 titles this year, including movies yet to come out this year for a total of 600 titles. Read the press release here with quotes from Craig and you tell me how they were "no show." http://www.thelookandsoundofperfect.com/_pdf/010707_hddvd_ces_2007.pdf

You see the direct quotes in there from Universal?

Are you at the show btw? If not, I don't know where you all get such impressions.

Also, Amir.. any chance you are aware of video of this demo? Or a detailed description of it?

Again, thanks.
Sorry, no. We are playing it around the clock at CES though. Maybe someone will record it and put it on the web. Both the Bandai demo and Miami vice are quite cool, real and stable btw.

Sorry but what are you talking about? Universal heads the US HD DVD promotion group. Craig Kornblau gave the keynote at HD DVD event. They and other HD DVD studios committed to releasing another 300 titles this year, including movies yet to come out this year for a total of 600 titles. Read the press release here with quotes from Craig and you tell me how they were "no show." http://www.thelookandsoundofperfect.com/_pdf/010707_hddvd_ces_2007.pdf

You see the direct quotes in there from Universal?

Are you at the show btw? If not, I don't know where you all get such impressions.


Amir,

I think people (the ones not taking cheap shots such as restart) were simply waiting for an official press release from Universal outside of the HD DVD group presentation.

We're just trying to determine why Universal did not seem to care about a press release like the rest of the studios. While it might not be their intention, breaking paradigm as such clearly has gotten people to "worry."

Then again, a quote from one of my favorite movies sums it up well: The mob is fickle brother. It'll be forgotten in a month :)

Would it be safe to say that perhaps CEDIA will give us a good snapshot of 07 and how it might go from there?

I had no knowledge of this press release, and am not defending what could be misleading wording, but I suspect they are referring to the first disc of either format to support all of these features: PiP, using the full disc capacity, and seamless branching.

In other news, Clerks 2 is the first disc set of either format to have all of these features: 6 hours of bonus features, a blooper reel, 3 commentaries, Jay and Silent Bob, and a HD encode of Clerks 2...

I think HD51 is the step in the right direction for HD-DVD, especially along with 1.5x speed to get the extra bandwidth [if they are sincere about it]. Compatibility is a big issue, but I think early adopters will get over it; they always do.Interesting; most HD DVD fans here seem to think BD early adopters whose players may not support secondary video or network connectivity will go ballistic when they realize their players may not support all future content.
Hopefully, recent drives will be able to read these discs at 1.5x (I have a feeling that these recent drives may have been over-designed for such a possibility).Even if it could, do you think the codecs would also magically be capable of supporting higher maximum bitrates?

Talk, is this what you were referring to when you mentioned the "seldom discussed secondary video" feature, and implied was optional?Nope, had nothing to do with streaming. Interesting that Amir has "gone dark" on this issue, though, since he's referred to it in the past, and Ben has more recently.

I'm on a narrowband connection due to hotel internet going out, so I'm not about to start searching, but there have been references in the past to it (Richard, I think you've pointed it out).

Nope, had nothing to do with streaming. Interesting that Amir has "gone dark" on this issue, though, since he's referred to it in the past, and Ben has more recently.
I have gone dark? First, I have a job to do at CES, unlike you who seems to have a ton of time on his hands during the show. It is 12:38am so I hope I can be excused for not keeping up with your posts.

Second, I described in full detail what is there. Your come back was some vague accusation with no detail, no link to a post by me or Ben. If you don't know enough about our specs to criticize it, without asking us to help you with it, well, maybe you should back off then. We certainly educate ourselves about what is wrong with BD, without asking you to help out!

I have not only explained what the spec does, but also talked about demos of the same features on released players. You are at CES, please take the time and go and see the product in action. I assure you that it will be more educational and fun than a fist fight on AVS :).

I'm on a narrowband connection due to hotel internet going out, so I'm not about to start searching, but there have been references in the past to it (Richard, I think you've pointed it out).
Then dig those up before throwing rocks around please.

We're just trying to determine why Universal did not seem to care about a press release like the rest of the studios. While it might not be their intention, breaking paradigm as such clearly has gotten people to "worry."
Maybe this (http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=453242) writeup from a Japanese discussion board presents one possible reason:
Interesting insider information about behind-the-door deal of Universal was leaked to Japanese discussion board.
Here you go...

1) Universal had an agreement which terminated the end of year 2006
- Based on the premise that Toshiba would release HD DVD player by the end of 2005 (actually it was pushed back to Spring of 2006),
- Universal would not release HD contents other than HD DVD,
- No obligation of the number of titles, but must release "strong" titles, including "King Kong",
- Money is paid under the pretext of investment for "King Kong".

2) In principle, now Universal is able to release HD titles other than HD DVD if they want. Univeral is not actively pushing HD business outside of US, its London office, which controls DVD business outside US, is not eager for pushing money hog HD title launch, that's the one of the reasons why Japanese Universal titles are not impressive unlike US.

3) There are another contracts with HD DVD studios, Universal, Warner and Paramount. Based on the premise of releasing player less than $500, studio has an obligation to release HD DVD titles at least 2 years since player release. Details of each contract varies on studios, but at least HD DVD title release is guaranteed until Spring 2008.

4) Rumor has it that Mr. Kornblau, president of Universal Home Entertainment, may (will) be fired by GE due to the business results. It also said that one of the reason why Univeral has kept releasing A class titles is because Kornblau needs to achieve the good sales of HD DVDs, since he is the person who committed HD DVD. Ironically, it was said he expressed that he wants to release titles as well on BD, however, since he committed to HD DVD publicly, it is difficult to announce BD title release. Therefore, there must be some face-saving reason for BD release, but PS3 may not be a good enough reason for it. If there would be no face-saving reason and Kornblau is fired, it would take at least another half year to decide BD release by the next management (it seems bad scenario for us).

Maybe this (http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=453242) writeup from a Japanese discussion board presents one possible reason:

I think the thing that completely shuts this down as rumor is the part about A class titles. I own every single Universal HD-dvd title and even I admit that while there are some absolute gems in the lineup there is a lot of filler. I still think WB has put out the best range of films on either format.

So much for Sony's subsidization of studios being treated like the eighth deadly sin.

Amir,

I think people (the ones not taking cheap shots such as restart) were simply waiting for an official press release from Universal outside of the HD DVD group presentation.

We're just trying to determine why Universal did not seem to care about a press release like the rest of the studios. While it might not be their intention, breaking paradigm as such clearly has gotten people to "worry."
In our CES planning, we all got together and decided that it would be best to do a single press conference, and a single press release. We thought that would show a lot more unity and that the combined message would be more powerful. From what we have heard, press people agree as they found the BDA presentation with separate releases and speeches as fragmented and not as coherent. Now please Talk, don't come and argue who did a better job, I don't care anymore about your opinion on this. The key here is that this was an explicit decision to have the HD DVD promotion group to speak on behalf of everyone, and not just each company on their own.

At the press conference, we did have three speeches though. Craig covered the content and business side. Fuji-san of Toshiba handled their player and partner releases, and I provided the overall perspective and Microsoft role in broadening the ecosystem of content and devices. It all felt very well knitted together and reception has been very positive.

Would it be safe to say that perhaps CEDIA will give us a good snapshot of 07 and how it might go from there?
Sure, we will have a bunch more new news at CEDIA too. But CES has been great for us. We have substantially increased our CE device base, unlike claims by BDA that everyone was on their side. We have broadened the ecosystem on the hardware side with the Broadcom announcement. And had fantastic new content partners such as Bandai Visual, breaking new ground with interactivity.

As always though, remember that we are going to announce less, but do more. Others like to do the reverse. That is fine by us. Everyone has a different style…

Would it be safe to say that perhaps CEDIA will give us a good snapshot of 07 and how it might go from there?"Just wait until CEDIA". Sounds like the HD DVD fans are taking a page from the Blu-ray "just wait" playbook. Accept, of course, virtually everything the Blu-ray folk have promised is now here.

Maybe this (http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=453242) writeup from a Japanese discussion board presents one possible reason:

Wow, that has to be the dirtiest and most unethical move by an insider....posting unsubstantiated rumor in this board insinuating that Universal is dumping HD DVD.....You can put up a good fight but this is hitting way below the belt. As a insider can't you adhere to a higher code of conduct...... :mad:

"Just wait until CEDIA". Sounds like the HD DVD fans are taking a page from the Blu-ray "just wait" playbook. Accept, of course, virtually everything the Blu-ray folk have promised is now here.

I own a PS3 also. You know, that majority BR player you're banking on, as indicated in your sig.

Ofcourse, in your head, MS and Toshiba will simply go away after the CES PR battle. I remember even a stronger version of this attitude after the last CES. Hey, who knows!? maybe even "palladin" will return to bash HD DVD now that BR has "put an end to HD DVD" yet after another CES.

I have a feeling that consumers and companies might have went home with varying perspectives after this is all said and done but hey! I'm sure we'll be here to find out. You can read my posts before CES on how CEDIA would be more telling that CES but I know, why? it's much more fun to take jabs, so let's get on with it!

Now let's get those BD-Live players out there! er.......right after we get Sony and Pioneer some BD-J juice, yeah? What good is wasted space on a 50GB if the those user can't do "PiP" on Descent :( Wait a min, does the disc even run in those players?

I have gone dark? First, I have a job to do at CES, unlike you who seems to have a ton of time on his hands during the show.Feel free to ask for time management tips - I'm getting plenty done! Besides, you answered posts after mine, so clearly you've spent some time here.
Second, I described in full detail what is there.No, you described something having to do with streaming. You are apparently feigning ignorance of Enhanced Video Format, as described in section 3.3.2 of the HD DVD-Video Guideline for Player and Content (http://www.dvdforum.org/images/HD_DVD-Video_Guideline20060828.pdf):
3.3.2 Bitrate for Enhanced Video format (optional)
It is not mandated to for a player to decode Sub Video stream which is Enhanced Video format. If a player support Enhanced Video format in Sub Video stream, the bitrate for each codec defined in [Table 6.3.5-3] shall be decoded.Perhaps you could explain to use what Enhanced Video format is, whether any current HD DVD players support it, and whether it's something the studios might care to use?

- Talk

Wow, that has to be the dirtiest and most unethical move by an insider....posting unsubstantiated rumor in this board insinuating that Universal is dumping HD DVDFine, shoot the messenger if you like. While you apparently would rather not see a discussion that posits that Universal might veer from their status as an exclusive HD DVD supporter, there are others here who'd rather make their own decisions as to what to believe. I provided a link to my source, take it up with him if you have an issue with it.

In our CES planning, we all got together and decided that it would be best to do a single press conference, and a single press release. We thought that would show a lot more unity and that the combined message would be more powerful.

Last year Universal issued a press release with a title list.


But CES has been great for us. We have substantially increased our CE device base, unlike claims by BDA that everyone was on their side.

If you're talking about the Chinese players, they didn't have an actual device, did they?

If you're talking about LG, seems you are "considering taking legal action against LG for using HD-dvd logo or attempting to sell a 'less than fully featured' HD-dvd player." Niiiice.


We have broadened the ecosystem on the hardware side with the Broadcom announcement.

And Tom McMahon hasn't posted here in nearly a month.

And had fantastic new content partners such as Bandai Visual, breaking new ground with interactivity.

But failed to gain fantastic new content partners such as Lionsgate and the Mouse.

As always though, remember that we are going to announce less, but do more.

Which is why last year you announced a sub-$500 standalone player and an HD DVD add-on for the Xbox 360.

Didn't Onkyo and Meridian also come on board with HD DVD. Didn't Toshiba announce another G2 player? This was in addition to the LG hybrid player and Chinese manufacturers coming on board.....

Also, didn't Tosh talk about a new 51 GB disk and didn't MSFT show new network features with HD DVD?

So all in all, HD DVD really focused this show on highlighting innovation, hardware and partners. It would have been nice to announce a major studio but most didn't expect that to happen.

Also, releasing a movie schedule in the launch year is fine, but after that CES should be used to show substantive progress and innovation. I used the analogy, it doesn't make sense for studios to make DVD release announcements at CES any longer. In 1997 or in the first year - absolutely. People don't go to CES to get a movie release schedule! AFAIK.

Fine, shoot the messenger if you like. While you apparently would rather not see a discussion that posits that Universal might veer from their status as an exclusive HD DVD supporter, there are others here who'd rather make their own decisions as to what to believe. I provided a link to my source, take it up with him if you have an issue with it.

Pls don't hide behind the tag of "I am just a messenger". We know your game plan............juz keep it above the belt. :rolleyes:

Pls don't hide behind the tag of "I am just a messenger". We know your game plan............juz keep it above the belt. :rolleyes:
(j/k)
But it IS above the belt. Its just that HD got caught with its trousers down :) (end j/k)

Who's with me? Up high.. or not

Wasn't it some HD DVD insiders that promised "CES 2007" when asked about the dearth of HD DVD titles coming?

Now it's CEDIA?

We have substantially increased our CE device base

Well, yeah. Going from one CE to 6 is a quite a jump. Unfortunately 2 of those are generics of questionable quality and the other 2 are high quality but not mainstream household names. I have had Onkyo receivers for years and still get a "huh?" when someone asks me what my setup consists of.

It's like someone saying "we've just doubled our numbers!" when they've gone from one to two.

I checked my DVD library. Family library. Even asked a couple friends. Nope, not one "Bandai Visual" title among them. Plenty of Disney titles though.

If I were Microsoft I'd start seriously looking into BD solutions.

New discussion topic:

According to my own calculations (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=784579) (based on Warner data), HD DVD sales were 2x BD sales in 2006.

LMAO. Let me get this straight: Universal didn't announce any dates for upcoming releases because Microsoft asked them not to?! There are maybe 3 or 4 HD DVD ultra-fans left on this forum who will believe that kind of nonsense. Universal are clearly not as confident as they once were...

Originally Posted by Talkstr8t
BD-Video and BD-Live logos have been prepared. I don't know whether they are for content, players, or both, but will report more when I have information.

This is a good start. Thanks Talk.

From Grubert's news post:

Meridian refutes HD DVD hardware announcement (http://avzombie.com/blog/2007/01/10/meridian-refutes-hd-dvd-hardware-announcement/)


Meridian will not be releasing an HD DVD player anytime soon. So says brand spokesman John Bamford, who claims that he was surprised to read that the company had been announced as a hardware partner by the HD DVD Promotion Group during its Las Vegas CES press event.
“We’re interested in HD DVD, but we’re also interested in Blu-ray,” says Bamford. “Meridian has been helping the HD DVD group with encoding and technical issues but our involvement appears to have been blown up out of all proportion. If we were to launch an HD DVD deck it would not appear for years.”


Was anything else announced by the HD DVD group at CES outright wrong?

Gary

I realize this question was not directed at me, but I can answer it. The Sony press release (which you can read here) which was released before the player was available to purchase, clearly states that the player would not play BD-J content until an update was made available in 2007. No need to test the disc on the Pio or Sony, everyone already knew that the disc wouldn't work on those machines yet before they were even sold.

Except Talk took issue with a similar firmware notice and interpreted it to say that it did NOT indicate that there was anything non-compliant or missing in the shipped BD-J implementation. Given that Descent is using no features beyond what BD-Video 1.0 provides (i.e. no BD-Video 1.1 or -Live features), then it should have played Descent without issue. Therefore it's probably reasonable to assume it was not (well) tested on those decks.

Does anybody know if Talkstr8t is really a BD insider...and if yes in what way.

The mods require proof of being an insider to have a designation. And they require all insiders to have the designation if they post claiming insider status.

So, trust the mods. They trust him.

He has chosen not to reveal his affiliation so he can talk more openly.

Gary

I know HD DVD usually doesnt announce titles 3-6 months in advance but can we at least hear or expect more announcements for Jan and Feb?

Were now almost halfway through Jan and besides some music and landscape atlas type discs, there are only about 12 titles announced for Jan. Only 4 titles are coming from Universal for Jan and they have been releasing an average of about 9-10 movies per month for the last 4 months.

He has chosen not to reveal his affiliation so he can talk more openly.

No. He is trying to have his cake and eat it too.

From Grubert's news post:

Meridian refutes HD DVD hardware announcement (http://avzombie.com/blog/2007/01/10/meridian-refutes-hd-dvd-hardware-announcement/)
Quote:
Meridian will not be releasing an HD DVD player anytime soon. So says brand spokesman John Bamford, who claims that he was surprised to read that the company had been announced as a hardware partner by the HD DVD Promotion Group during its Las Vegas CES press event.
“We’re interested in HD DVD, but we’re also interested in Blu-ray,” says Bamford. “Meridian has been helping the HD DVD group with encoding and technical issues but our involvement appears to have been blown up out of all proportion. If we were to launch an HD DVD deck it would not appear for years.”

Was anything else announced by the HD DVD group at CES outright wrong?

Gary

Why do I get the feeling that HD-DVD is coming apart at the seams like a cheap (chinese) suit in a shower of rain.... ;)

b2b

From Grubert's news post:

Meridian refutes HD DVD hardware announcement (http://avzombie.com/blog/2007/01/10/meridian-refutes-hd-dvd-hardware-announcement/)



Was anything else announced by the HD DVD group at CES outright wrong?

Gary

If Meridian actually isn't building a HD-DVD player... wow, how desperate for CE support the HD-DVD group must be right now to claim something completely untrue. Or as Meridian's spokesperson allegedly put it:

“Meridian has been helping the HD DVD group with encoding and technical issues but our involvement appears to have been blown up out of all proportion. If we were to launch an HD DVD deck it would not appear for years.”

Does anybody know if Talkstr8t is really a BD insider...and if yes in what way.

He is a BD-J insider. Seems to have a big stake in it. Isn't really interested in Home theatre as such otherwise ...

Amir beleives he works in Sun and represents them in DVD Forum and other bodies. Talk has refused to say where he works - but says he has represented in DVD forum, IIRC.

Why do I get the feeling that HD-DVD is coming apart at the seams like a cheap (chinese) suit in a shower of rain.... ;)

b2b

Chinese suits aren't cheap, really.

But yeah, if this is true, that's pretty disappointing. Only one little small website is reporting that now, but I'm looking for others. If it's confirmed, that would be just pathetic.

Is it zealotry to accept Newton's Laws of physics as being accurate at non-relativistic energies or is it just rational? Is it laudable to claim that both Evolution and Creationism should be taught in science classes just to settle controversy?

Is it zealotry?

The fact that you find the question of what physical format movies appear on equal to questions about the origin of life pretty much answers that question...

Chinese suits aren't cheap, really.

But yeah, if this is true, that's pretty disappointing. Only one little small website is reporting that now, but I'm looking for others. If it's confirmed, that would be just pathetic.

That's the home site of AVForums (more or less the UK equiv. of AVS) and there is a direct quote..
“We’re interested in HD DVD, but we’re also interested in Blu-ray,” says Bamford. “Meridian has been helping the HD DVD group with encoding and technical issues but our involvement appears to have been blown up out of all proportion. If we were to launch an HD DVD deck it would not appear for years.”

But in the interest of good "journalism" a second source is in order...

b2b

"Just wait until CEDIA". Sounds like the HD DVD fans are taking a page from the Blu-ray "just wait" playbook. Accept, of course, virtually everything the Blu-ray folk have promised is now here.

Right, like the "cheat" on PiP.

"Just wait until CEDIA". Sounds like the HD DVD fans are taking a page from the Blu-ray "just wait" playbook. Accept, of course, virtually everything the Blu-ray folk have promised is now here.

I'm still waiting for the superior quality part. When do we get to see that? I dont want to see any more debates on whether or not the PQ is equal with the advantages BR has it should clearly be able to show a superior quality over HD DVD right?

"Just wait until CEDIA". Sounds like the HD DVD fans are taking a page from the Blu-ray "just wait" playbook. Accept, of course, virtually everything the Blu-ray folk have promised is now here.

Yup ... we do have "virtual PiP" ... plus, all the other things they promised: Interactivity, Network/Internet Compatibility, BD-Live, a 'win' ... yup, they're all available now. In fact, I'm going to go pick up one of the Sony Players today at Best Buy so I can watch The Descent ... oh ... wait ... it can't play that title ... guess no virtual PiP for me. :p

Maybe this (http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=453242) writeup from a Japanese discussion board presents one possible reason:

Well now that this is on the table in a semi-official capacity, can an HD DVD insider speak to the accuracy of these claims?

Or... really more specifically, did Universal have a timed exclusivity commitment contract that has expired?

But in the interest of good "journalism" a second source is in order...

b2b

True. Amir was pretty stoked about getting Meridian onboard, one should think he would know?? What is going on?

Well now that this is on the table in a semi-official capacity, can an HD DVD insider speak to the accuracy of these claims?

Or... really more specifically, did Universal have a timed exclusivity commitment contract that has expired?

Just because Talkstr8t quoted someone named "Badass" from another forum, and this "Badass" claims to have read it from some other poster on yet a different forum, this has become semi-official news? :)

Interesting quotes from article posted on the "News" thread.

http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6406192.html
More than 9 million high definition DVD devices including game systems are expected to be in homes this year and “consumers are hungry for high definition movies in both formats,” Sanders said. Warner estimates software sales will total $1 billion, with $600 million of that expected to come from HD DVD software sales.

Warner is projecting that revenues from Blu-ray software sales will reach just $400 million in 2007, even though the format will have 6.2 million players in the market. However, the majority of those will be PlayStation 3 game consoles, and Sanders said the studio has found that most units are being used for gaming.

9M total HD players - 6.2M Blu-Ray = 2.8M HD-DVD Players.

They go on to predict $600M SW sales for HD-DVD @ 2.8M and then $400M for Blu-Ray @ 6.2M.

What they seem to forget is the PS3 owners form a concentrated installed base of Blu-Ray players that can be marketed to as a single group. No, I don't expect all PS3 owners to become rabid videophiles gobbling up every BD title that comes along, but I do expect PS3 owners to prefer renting or buying a BD title if they have a choice over DVD. That's the point of PS3 having BD movie playback, giving the owner a choice and convincing them to choose the BD disc over DVD.

b2b

PS3 should hit 9 million by itself.

Just because Talkstr8t quoted someone named "Badass" from another forum, and this "Badass" claims to have read it from some other poster on yet a different forum, this has become semi-official news? :)

Uh... yes? ;)

The point is not that it was brought up by an insider, but that it hasn't yet been refuted by one. See the difference?

I'm not saying I believe it, I'm just saying it doesn't sound unbelievable. For my part I've asked the question in the insiders thread, so hopefully there will be something more definitive on that question soon.

PS3 should hit 9 million by itself.

An actual number isn't really relevant (although, the more the better). PS3 will be the #1 HD player for at least the next couple of years by a factor of multiple millions over HD-DVD. And a couple of years is plenty of time to convince the PS3 owner to choose a BD disc rather than a DVD.

b2b

Oh, yes, I'm sure all those people with very high-end displays capable of supporting 1080p24 input are going to cheap out with the A20 instead of the XA2 or one of the potential future Onkyo or Meridian players.
How have they one-upped? By one more GB, but at the cost of compatibility with the entire installed base, plus the fact we have no idea if it will get through the specification process and be reasonably manufacturable? There will be hundreds of BD50 titles out before a single TL51 is released. Oh, and did you notice that TDK is showing 200GB Blu-ray discs at CES? They have had that technology longer than Toshiba has had TL51.
Wishful thinking.
Wishful thinking.
LG has repeatedly said "no HDi on this player". Yet there's an HD DVD logo prominently displayed. Deal with it.
Oh yes, HD DVD being able to support one more GB than Blu-ray, but only on new players, and only if studios decide to use it knowing that old players can't use it, and still having support from a whopping three studios, is surely keeping us all awake at night quivering under our blankies.
Well my post was directed at someone else, but you are the official respondent to all, at the moment, so...

First - 1080p24 is not the ONLY feature that Hi-End manufacturers will be adding, so the A20 doesn't kill the market, as you wish to infer. There are a lot of other high end features and formats that are available to the high end players, which the Toshibas do not have.

Oh, and this is the THIRD time in the last yearthat the Bluray camp have "announced" the 200 Gig "labrat" BR disc. They wheeled out this announcement AGAIN as soon as they heard about the TL 51. As the "labrat" is for recording only, it is guaranteed that it will never play on any of the existing BD ROM movies players, so it's not even in the same category as the TL 51 disc, which is intended for movie playback.

On the rest, sorry I don't agree. I think you are hoping it's not, and I am thinking it will.

LG will conform to HDi, even if it means replacing the player very quickly. At the moment there is no reason for HD DVD supporters to buy the LG hybrid player, but it's a good buy for Bluray buyers, as it gives them flexibility. LG have announced they will have a replacement very soon which includes HDi.

Guys why even discuss the tri-layer HD DVD disc?
SShhh! :p Don't mention the war! ;)

So much for Sony's subsidization of studios being treated like the eighth deadly sin.
I can hardly wait for the leak on the BR deals - THAT will be fun to read! :

Well my post was directed at someone else, but you are the official respondent to all, at the moment, so...

First - 1080p24 is not the ONLY feature that Hi-End manufacturers will be adding, so the A20 doesn't kill the market, as you wish to infer. There are a lot of other high end features and formats that are available to the high end players, which the Toshibas do not have.

Oh, and this is the THIRD time in the last yearthat the Bluray camp have "announced" the 200 Gig "labrat" BR disc. They wheeled out this announcement AGAIN as soon as they heard about the TL 51. As the "labrat" is for recording only, it is guaranteed that it will never play on any of the existing BD ROM movies players, so it's not even in the same category as the TL 51 disc, which is intended for movie playback.

On the rest, sorry I don't agree. I think you are hoping it's not, and I am thinking it will.

LG will conform to HDi, even if it means replacing the player very quickly. At the moment there is no reason for HD DVD supporters to buy the LG hybrid player, but it's a good buy for Bluray buyers, as it gives them flexibility. LG have announced they will have a replacement very soon which includes HDi.

Is the TL51 in the same category as the TL45 ?? If it is, we can recycle the PR and just change the dates... :)
The draft specification for the format has been submitted to the DVD Forum, and should be approved "later this year," says Knox.

Knox reports that triple-layer demo material should be available in the summer, and that existing players can read the format, requiring only a firmware change. The discs could be available in 2005, he says, "although the very beginning of 2006 is more likely for volume production."

b2b

Interesting quotes from article posted on the "News" thread.

http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6406192.html


9M total HD players - 6.2M Blu-Ray = 2.8M HD-DVD Players.

They go on to predict $600M SW sales for HD-DVD @ 2.8M and then $400M for Blu-Ray @ 6.2M.

What they seem to forget is the PS3 owners form a concentrated installed base of Blu-Ray players that can be marketed to as a single group. No, I don't expect all PS3 owners to become rabid videophiles gobbling up every BD title that comes along, but I do expect PS3 owners to prefer renting or buying a BD title if they have a choice over DVD. That's the point of PS3 having BD movie playback, giving the owner a choice and convincing them to choose the BD disc over DVD.

b2b


Yikes! So HD-DVD movies will outsell BD movies by 1.5:1 in 2007? That's not good news for Disney.

Are you sure about this? This is not what the folks at the Blu-Ray booth told me. Then again they also told me BD looks better than HD-DVD, so I guess I better take what they said with a grain of salt. ;)

Is the TL51 in the same category as the TL45 ?? If it is, we can recycle the PR and just change the dates... :)


b2b
You asks the question, you gets the answer... ;)

No, TL51 is different. Reason, when they went to develop and test 51 to prepare for submission to the forum, they realized they could do better, so they worked on it a bit. My guess is this is specifically why it was not submitted last year after all.

I also would guess that it is VERY ready for ratification toute-suite.

Yikes! So HD-DVD movies will outsell BD movies by 1.5:1 in 2007? That's not good news for Disney.

Are you sure about this? This is not what the folks at the Blu-Ray booth told me. Then again they also told me BD looks better than HD-DVD, so I guess I better take what they said with a grain of salt. ;)

You have to consider the source. Warner was the one that was making all of the wild predictions last year about "billions and billions" being served (which they had to recant and re-guess-about-it) :)

b2b

You have to consider the source. Warner was the one that was making all of the wild predictions last year about "billions and billions" being served (which they had to recant and re-guess-about-it) :)

b2b

Recall that those predictions were based on 4 million PS3s being out by now and additional BR stand alone players being delayed for months that were expected to be out long before the holiday season

Is the TL51 in the same category as the TL45 ?? If it is, we can recycle the PR and just change the dates... :)


b2b
:p

PS3 should hit 9 million by itself.Extremely doubtful in 2007, unless there is a price cut...

PS3s are starting to clog the shelves already - see my post here...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9418327&&#post9418327

PS3 demand slows, stores stocked aplenty (http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070108-8574.html)

PS3 demand cools as retailers see returns, slow sales (http://www.gamepro.com/news.cfm?article_id=93268)


An actual number isn't really relevant (although, the more the better). PS3 will be the #1 HD player for at least the next couple of years by a factor of multiple millions over HD-DVD.You sure about that? If so they'd better lower the price. Consumers are notoriously price sensitive (they are funny that way)...and PS3 will be competing against inexpensive Chinese HD DVD imports. See my post here...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9414581&&#post9414581

Percentage of enthusiasts
surveyed who would buy
a high-definition DVD player

$1000 - 2%

$750 - 3%

$500 - 8%

$300 - 28%

$200 - 60%

$100 - 76%
And, unfortunately, in late January, Sony has to announce their 3rd quarter financial results in late January - which should not be pleasant at all for their game division. Maybe Howard Stringer will go the way of Ken K. and be made "Super Duper Double Secret CEO'.

They still haven't launched in EU and some other markets.

They matched a lower priced X360 sales volume in 2005, only launching in US and Japan. With no software. Going against the Wii phenomenon.

Even at $600, the PS2 user base is huge. Once the games start rolling, they will get takers. I see 10 million by the end of this year being no problem, even if they don't drop a penny in price.

Recall that those predictions were based on 4 million PS3s being out by now and additional BR stand alone players being delayed for months that were expected to be out long before the holiday season

Warner's predictions are about as reliable as a coin toss (well actually a coin toss has better odds...50/50 :) ). They are predicting 2.8M for HD-DVD alone for 2007. DVD only did 1,089,261 in 1998. Not counting BD standalone players (which they didn't give a separate breakout # for) I would guess they will be doing more "recanting and re-guessing-about-it" with these new predictions too. ;)

b2b

Is the TL51 in the same category as the TL45 ?? If it is, we can recycle the PR and just change the dates... :)


b2b
Or we could do a Fox and just let the dates fall where they may. ;)

They still haven't launched in EU and some other markets.

They matched a lower priced X360 sales volume in 2005, only launching in US and Japan. With no software. Going against the Wii phenomenon.

That is probably the reason why 360 was not readily available well into 2Q of 2006 - where as already there are reports of PS3 sitting on shelfs ...

BTW, may be its a good thing that PS3 doesn't have many games. May be those guys are buying movies instead ;)

Even at $600, the PS2 user base is huge.

You don't know that.

Once the games start rolling, they will get takers. I see 10 million by the end of this year being no problem, even if they don't drop a penny in price.

We don't know whether the will-buy-at-any-cost is 5M or 10M. But that number is significantly lesser than PS2 ownership numbers ...

That is probably the reason why 360 was not readily available well into 2Q of 2006 - where as already there are reports of PS3 sitting on shelfs ...
I'm not too sure about that. Given the disasterous performance of the 360 in Japan it's only genuinely being sold at volume in 2 of the 3 regions even today. I think the PS3 outsold it in Japan after about a month on the market, which is pretty shocking.

I'm not too sure about that. Given the disasterous performance of the 360 in Japan it's only genuinely being sold at volume in 2 of the 3 regions even today. I think the PS3 outsold it in Japan after about a month on the market, which is pretty shocking.

Other markets are different of course. But in the North American market, there is ample evidence now to show that pent-up demand for the PS3 wasn't as high as it was for the 360.

In North America, they had to sell about 1.5 million 360's to get to a point where they had units sitting on the shelf. For the PS3, they only sold about 850K to get to that same point. Japan never really had any pent-up demand for the 360, from what I can tell. I don't know how it will fair in Europe or the little island just west of that continent. :)

We're in Europe too you know (whether we like it or not) ;) 360 is doing very well in the US, there's no doubt about it. I've gotta wonder what sales of the Xbox were like at the time of the 360's launch, since those would tend to canabalise the next gen format's purchases. It seems the PS2 is still (still!) selling by the bucket load in the ol' USofA, which is probably part of the lower demand you're seeing.

Of course the lack of a killer title and the relatively high price are also a disincentive...

Interesting article posted by mikemorel on the news thread.......

http://www.edn.com/article/CA6405883.html?spacedesc=opinions

......Now revisit the data in the table above. Of everything I've seen from anyone in either the Blu-ray or HD DVD camps, Microsoft's product approach still makes the most sense to me. Those 10.4 million Xbox 360 owners either already are or will soon be ready to scratch the next inevitable tech-consumption itch, and a sub-$200 HD DVD add-on is a compelling candidate.

When we all know game players won't use a game box for a HD disc player.

Are we all now in agreement the above is not true? Because you can't have it both ways.

Gary

Talkstr8t,

Please try to conduct yourself in a more professional manner. As a Blu-ray Insider you are acting as a representative of the BDA. Many of your comments are hostile or are just trying to spread fear, uncertainty and doubt (FUD). This tone causes people to quickly dismiss your viewpoint. If you wish to gain support for the BDA, your current strategy is not the best way.

Feel free to ask for time management tips - I'm getting plenty done!
Its comments like the above that help to reduce your creditability. Are you serious trying to compare yourself to Amir? http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/exec/amirm/default.mspx

It seems quite logical that Amir would have to spend more time working CES and talking to the decision makers at other companies than an unnamed employee working the field.

Please refer to the forum rules: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=769114

To debate is one thing, to attack is another. PLEASE THINK.
special rules apply to posting here: please observe them:

-No bashing other members
-Please no fighting or trolling
-if you disagree with something posted: challenge the information; not the poster
-make sure your information is accurate; cite the facts on which you base your post: if it is your opinion, qualify it as such
-are you an industry insider? identify yourself as such and do not use AVS to bash your competition

AVS is a technical forum: we expect posters to maintain a high techical and ethical standard in your posts

When we all know game players won't use a game box for a HD disc player.

Are we all now in agreement the above is not true? Because you can't have it both ways.

Gary

Thank you.

It seems quite logical that Amir would have to spend more time working CES and talking to the decision makers at other companies than an unnamed employee working the field.
Are you saying someone you don't know must be spending more time working than someone else you don't know. Wow. Do you have any stock tips?

Does anybody know if Talkstr8t is really a BD insider...and if yes in what way.
I don't know this for sure, it certainly has never been confirmed by Talk or any other BD insider, and I'm just conveying the tentative conclusion that anyone who has read the couple posts that have intimated the answer you're looking for on various threads in this forum, so hopefully a mod won't feel the need to delete this post. But my assumption from reading various posts on the subject is that Talk works for Sun Microsystems, which is behind the Java implementation for BD.

Interesting quotes from article posted on the "News" thread.

http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6406192.html


9M total HD players - 6.2M Blu-Ray = 2.8M HD-DVD Players.

They go on to predict $600M SW sales for HD-DVD @ 2.8M and then $400M for Blu-Ray @ 6.2M.

What they seem to forget is the PS3 owners form a concentrated installed base of Blu-Ray players that can be marketed to as a single group. No, I don't expect all PS3 owners to become rabid videophiles gobbling up every BD title that comes along, but I do expect PS3 owners to prefer renting or buying a BD title if they have a choice over DVD. That's the point of PS3 having BD movie playback, giving the owner a choice and convincing them to choose the BD disc over DVD.

b2b
And the operative word there is "renting". Hardcore gamers (The first 4 or 5 million people who buy a PS3/XBox 360) tend to be the type who will netflix/rent a movie instead of buying it. Sure, there'll be hardcore movie buffs lumped in there who have a DVD library in the hundreds and will prefer to buy, but if I had the choice to sped $60 on Oblivion or buy two 2 hour movies, I'd choose the game every time. A movie gets me 2 hours, maybe 3 or 4 of entertainment, decent if I'm going to rent it. I've played over 100 hours of oblivion already.

I don't see anything wrong with Warner's numbers, if anything, they may be underestimating, considering the response we've had to the HD DVD addon. Toshiba says 1.8 million players this year, MS could easily ship a million if they wanted to, and that's not counting any <$400 players released by the low end manufacturers this year (Sure, maybe no one at AVSForum would buy them, but J6P probably will).

Talkstr8t,

Please try to conduct yourself in a more professional manner. As a Blu-ray Insider you are acting as a representative of the BDA. Many of your comments are hostile or are just trying to spread fear, uncertainty and doubt (FUD). This tone causes people to quickly dismiss your viewpoint. If you wish to gain support for the BDA, your current strategy is not the best way.


Its comments like the above that help to reduce your creditability. Are you serious trying to compare yourself to Amir? http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/exec/amirm/default.mspx

It seems quite logical that Amir would have to spend more time working CES and talking to the decision makers at other companies than an unnamed employee working the field.

Please refer to the forum rules: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=769114
You mean like this ?? ;)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom McMahon
As a participant in SMPTE's C24 process, it isn't appropriate for me to discuss the details of SMPTE's internal process. But, simply checking the SMPTE website and list of published SMPTE Standards will tell you that SMPTE421M (the final name for "VC-1") is not available yet.

Quote: amirm
Incredible. If there ever was a case of a kid throwing a rock at a window and then going by the street looking like he has no idea who broke the glass, this must be it.

We both know that you have been one of the least helpful people in SMPTE when it comes to VC-1 standardization. My head is low every time I see an ex-MSFT employee attempting to constantly stop or completely nullify the VC-1 process based on technicalities that no one seems to agree with. Your conduct there is one of the prime reasons for the delayed process in SMPTE. So for you to come here and celebrate that fact, is an incredible insult to the industry and the business that you are in. Thank heavens for the majority of SMPTE members ignoring your tactics there, and seeing them for what they are.

We don’t claim to be angles but contrast our conduct to yours. We chaired the standardization of AVC and drove it to be a super competitor to our own in house technology. Dr. Sullivan of Microsoft actually won the IEEE Fellowship award for his tireless efforts to drive this standard. On top of this, we joined the MPEG-LA patent pool and pushed for reasonable licensing for it by putting our patents in that pool. This would be like Sony chairing the HD DVD standardization and getting an award for doing a great job at it! So just because you have a personal passion for another technology, should not be a reason to go create havoc in the other standard.

What is even more incredible is you attempting to hide behind a veil of secrecy, pretending you have done nothing wrong. Isn’t it strange that you offer to publish the corporate emails from your previous employer yet all of a sudden, your ethical standard is so high that you can’t talk about your actions in SMPTE?

Want more data? How about the fact that your current employer has implemented VC-1 in its hardware using the same SMPTE spec that you frown upon? Or the fact that you have design wins which would not have been possible without VC-1? You take advantage of Microsoft opening its specification for you to independently implement it in your decoder, yet come here and bad mouth the very process that benefits your company financially? Isn’t this at least a bit hypocritical?

Tom, I hesitated to engage with you at this level in the hopes that we could have a civil discussion. I am saddened to see that you are back to your standard way of trashing VC-1 and Microsoft every chance you get. But if this is the type of discussion you like to have, I am certainly game. Folks here know that I am not shy that way . Consider your honeymoon officially over .
http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6580763&&#post6580763

b2b

LG will conform to HDi, even if it means replacing the player very quickly.
What? Are you serious? :eek: You do realize that you are putting your foot in your mouth, right? It doesn't matter quickly or slowly: If a player carrying HD-DVD logo is released without fully supporting HDi and it doesn't comply (within 90 days according to Amir), then I would say that player falls into a new, ad-hoc profile, whether you call that a profile or not. You can't have it both ways. You can't attack Blu-ray player profiles, and at the same time go soft on players like LG's.

That'd be funny if the LG player sold real well.

Whoops, no HDi, no HD-DVD logo.

People don't care!

I think HD51 is the step in the right direction for HD-DVD, especially along with 1.5x speed to get the extra bandwidth [if they are sincere about it]. Compatibility is a big issue, but I think early adopters will get over it; they always do.Interesting; most HD DVD fans here seem to think BD early adopters whose players may not support secondary video or network connectivity will go ballistic when they realize their players may not support all future content.I think most people say that for the sake of argument. Or may be I generalized early adopters too much! :)

Hopefully, recent drives will be able to read these discs at 1.5x (I have a feeling that these recent drives may have been over-designed for such a possibility).
Even if it could, do you think the codecs would also magically be capable of supporting higher maximum bitrates?I guess you are talking about the decoders in current players who may not be able to handle higher bandwidth of new encodes. You are right. Actually I did think about that a little, but the solution didn't look elegant (being an engineer, I was already thinking about how to solve this puzzle -- remember current decoders can handle 30Mbps encodes, and rest of the hardware is more-or-less a PC). You will have to think from format neutral perspective for this one.

Anyway, I did say wishful thinking, didn't I? :) Maybe, in order for HD-DVD to really match Blu-ray, they will have to let go of the entire first generation (and 1.5 gen). Or maybe, HD51 is just a bullet point to the lure The Mouse. I don't know; I have never been good at politics.

My point was this: If HD-DVD theoretically supports ~50GB, ~50Mbps, Blu-ray has nothing to lose in case the format war doesn't end, especially thinking about neutral studios who will then be more encouraged to utilize BD to the fullest. Case in point: Warners' VC1 encodes.

I think most people say that for the sake of argument. Or may be I generalized early adopters too much! :)

I guess you are talking about the decoders in current players who may not be able to handle higher bandwidth of new encodes. You are right. Actually I did think about that a little, but the solution didn't look elegant (being an engineer, I was already thinking about how to solve this puzzle -- remember current decoders can handle 30Mbps encodes, and rest of the hardware is more-or-less a PC). You will have to think from format neutral perspective for this one.

Anyway, I did say wishful thinking, didn't I? :) Maybe, in order for HD-DVD to really match Blu-ray, they will have to let go of the entire first generation (and 1.5 gen). Or maybe, HD51 is just a bullet point to the lure The Mouse. I don't know; I have never been good at politics.

My point was this: If HD-DVD theoretically supports ~50GB, ~50Mbps, Blu-ray has nothing to lose in case the format war doesn't end, especially thinking about neutral studios who will then be more encouraged to utilize BD to the fullest. Case in point: Warners' VC1 encodes.
Actually, seeing as the BD and HD DVD players are using the same decoding chipsets, and the manufacturers of those chipsets advertise them as supporting both BD and HD DVD, then higher bitrates shouldn't be a problem. Also all the HD DVD standalones and the Addon are using 2x drives, so spinning a disc ar 1.5x won't be a problem.

Whether those two things translate to them being able to actually do it or not, I don't know, but the hardware is capable.

...

I don't see anything wrong with Warner's numbers, if anything, they may be underestimating, considering the response we've had to the HD DVD addon. Toshiba says 1.8 million players this year, MS could easily ship a million if they wanted to, and that's not counting any <$400 players released by the low end manufacturers this year (Sure, maybe no one at AVSForum would buy them, but J6P probably will).

Has the yield problem of the blue laser diode been solved? Are there enough to produce the millions of machines predicted by both sides?

I don't see anything wrong with Warner's numbers, if anything, they may be underestimating, considering the response we've had to the HD DVD addon.From looking around it looks to me like the add-on is selling well on Amazon and local stores (I'm in the Seattle area). Do you think the add-on could be accounting for more than half of HD DVD players sold right now? Toshiba said more than 175k total (and their sentence included the add-on) and it seems to me that more than half of all players on the HD DVD side could be the add-on.

--Darin

What is this odd story about? It doesn't make any sense. Can anyone find a link to the original story?

http://kotaku.com/gaming/blu+ray-shocker/sony-pictures-to-include-portable-movie-files-on-bluray-dvds-227862.php

Sony Pictures Entertainment will include portable files on Blu-Ray DVDs that can be transferred without a download, David Bishop, head of Sony's home entertainment unit, said in an interview this week at the Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas. Sony may add the feature this year, Bishop said. "It's not currently part of anything on our current release schedule, but we'll probably roll it out sometime this year," Bishop said on Jan. 8.

Are you saying someone you don't know must be spending more time working than someone else you don't know. Wow. Do you have any stock tips?

I don't have any public stock tips. Probability of being a corporate VP for a major company and active in these forums would be very low. Additionally from Talk's posting it does not appear that he is at that level. Also, my experience tells me that VPs for major companies typically spend more time with business matters, delivering presentations, press interviews, etc. at industry trade shows. Hence, logically Amir is probably busier than Talk. However; this discussion is off topic for this thread.

Your post is a good example of challenging the poster and not the information.

Actually, seeing as the BD and HD DVD players are using the same decoding chipsets, and the manufacturers of those chipsets advertise them as supporting both BD and HD DVD, then higher bitrates shouldn't be a problem. Also all the HD DVD standalones and the Addon are using 2x drives, so spinning a disc ar 1.5x won't be a problem.

Whether those two things translate to them being able to actually do it or not, I don't know, but the hardware is capable.I am quite hopeful about 1.5x speed (I am not sure, but I though 1 gen drive is 1x; rest may already be over-designed as I mentioned). I also hope they can read TL which will be much trickier, but not entirely impossible (well, borderline).

The part about bandwidth is interesting. If the first Broadcom chips can handle 40Mbps, then the solution will be trivial (of course easier said than done). By the way, can Xbox360 handle 40Mbps AVC?

Let's hope this works out. I just hope that Toshiba and DVD Forum are being serious this time around instead of taking all of us (consumers) for a ride once again.

From looking around it looks to me like the add-on is selling well on Amazon and local stores (I'm in the Seattle area). Do you think the add-on could be accounting for more than half of HD DVD players sold right now? Toshiba said more than 175k total (and their sentence included the add-on) and it seems to me that more than half of all players on the HD DVD side could be the add-on.

--Darin
That number is for NA only, as the sentence itself said. For some reason that seems to get left out when people quote that number here, and for some reason I feel the need to correct it every time I see it. :)

It's impossible to parse from the world wide numbers that have been reported (120,000 stand alone HD-DVD players sold, and 150,000 360 add ons) the ration of NA sales alone, taking into account the focus Toshiba has placed on the US markets wrt their stand alone players, I would tend to think that they represent a larger portion of that 175k number then the 360 add ons. Exactly how much is anyones guess.

That number is for NA only, as the sentence itself said. For some reason that seems to get left out when people quote that number here, and for some reason I feel the need to correct it every time I see it. :)Sorry. You are right, I should have put in North America. I doubt they've sold significant numbers elsewhere, but still should have.
It's impossible to parse from the world wide numbers that have been reported (120,000 stand alone HD-DVD players sold, and 150,000 360 add ons) ...Who reported those numbers?

--Darin

What is this odd story about? It doesn't make any sense. Can anyone find a link to the original story?

http://kotaku.com/gaming/blu+ray-shocker/sony-pictures-to-include-portable-movie-files-on-bluray-dvds-227862.php

this sounds to me like their strategy of including on a bd movie disc a psp version of the movie that you can put on your psp for portable playback, etc.

I don't have any public stock tips. Probability of being a corporate VP for a major company and active in these forums would be very low. Additionally from Talk's posting it does not appear that he is at that level. Also, my experience tells me that VPs for major companies typically spend more time with business matters, delivering presentations, press interviews, etc. at industry trade shows. Hence, logically Amir is probably busier than Talk. However; this discussion is off topic for this thread.

Your post is a good example of challenging the poster and not the information.

Exactly what information were you challenging with these comments ??
Talkstr8t,

Please try to conduct yourself in a more professional manner. As a Blu-ray Insider you are acting as a representative of the BDA. Many of your comments are hostile or are just trying to spread fear, uncertainty and doubt (FUD). This tone causes people to quickly dismiss your viewpoint. If you wish to gain support for the BDA, your current strategy is not the best way.

b2b

Sorry. You are right, I should have put in North America. I doubt they've sold significant numbers elsewhere, but still should have.
Who reported those numbers?

--Darin
From the WSJ article posted a fewdays ago:

About 695,000 consumers own either a Blu-ray or an HD-DVD player, according to Tom Adams of Adams Media Research in Carmel, Calif. But only about 25,000 have purchased stand-alone Blu-ray players. Another 400,000 consumers have Blu-ray because they bought a Sony PS3 game console. Meanwhile, about 120,000 or so have a stand-alone HD-DVD player while about 150,000 have an HD-DVD upgrade kit for their Xbox 360 game consoles, Mr. Adams says. He adds that those numbers are well in excess of the 300,000 DVD-player sales in 1997, when that technology rolled out.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=780884&highlight=wall+street+journal

Exactly what information were you challenging with these comments ??


b2b

I understood his post; Talk's posting style and message have quickly deteriorated almost to the level of, well you ;)

this sounds to me like their strategy of including on a bd movie disc a psp version of the movie that you can put on your psp for portable playback, etc.

Sonic has come up with software for both kiosk and home PC use (if I remember correctly) that allows burning DVD discs using standard CSS copy protection. A 50GB BD with a 10GB leftover for a DVD copy of the movie could also be a target for this kind of application.

b2b

I understood his post; Talk's posting style and message have quickly deteriorated almost to the level of, well you ;)

I used to enjoy his post's even if I didn't agree with him but lately it's gotten a bit too personal, I was beginning to think Amir went over and kicked his dog or something. :(

I understood his post; Talk's posting style and message have quickly deteriorated almost to the level of, well you ;)

Then I guess we both swim in the same water.. ;)

b2b

I understood his post; Talk's posting style and message have quickly deteriorated almost to the level of, well you ;)
Wow if ain't that the most truthful thing I've read all day. :eek: ;) :(

You mean like this ?? ;)

http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6580763&&#post6580763

b2b

It would be ideal if we could all act professional and challenge the technical merits and ideas for each format, instead of resorting to personal attacks when we run out of substance in our argument. We don't have to agree, just present compelling arguments.


People with extraordinary minds talk about ideas. People with average minds talk about events. People with simple minds talk about other people. - Anonymous

From the WSJ article posted a fewdays ago:
About 695,000 consumers own either a Blu-ray or an HD-DVD player, according to Tom Adams of Adams Media Research in Carmel, Calif. But only about 25,000 have purchased stand-alone Blu-ray players. Another 400,000 consumers have Blu-ray because they bought a Sony PS3 game console. Meanwhile, about 120,000 or so have a stand-alone HD-DVD player while about 150,000 have an HD-DVD upgrade kit for their Xbox 360 game consoles, Mr. Adams says. He adds that those numbers are well in excess of the 300,000 DVD-player sales in 1997, when that technology rolled out.And do you believe that his 400,000 number for PS3s was for worldwide? I think it should be pretty clear that it wasn't unless it was from a while ago, so why would his other numbers be for worldwide? I think his numbers are suspect in light of what Toshiba has said and what we know about the PS3 in Japan and the US (or North America).

--Darin

It would be ideal if we could all act professional and challenge the technical merits and ideas for each format, instead of resorting to personal attacks when we run out of substance in our argument. We don't have to agree, just present compelling arguments.


People with extraordinary minds talk about ideas. People with average minds talk about events. People with simple minds talk about other people. - Anonymous

OK, now that we've got the "people talk" out of the way, do we have any meritorious technical issues or ideas about the format differences to further the conversation with ?? :)

What do you think of the LG player ??

b2b

Sonic has come up with software for both kiosk and home PC use (if I remember correctly) that allows burning DVD discs using standard CSS copy protection. A 50GB BD with a 10GB leftover for a DVD copy of the movie could also be a target for this kind of application.

b2b

right, and there was also talk about including unlockable/purchaseable content in the extra space...

Exactly what information were you challenging with these comments ??
b2b

I'm not challenging his technical information.

I'm offering constructive feedback by asking people to follow the rules of this thread and forum. You don't win additional supporters by attacking others. This strategy benefits those already on your side and often times alienates those that are neutral. You can win people with convincing discussions.

OK, now that we've got the "people talk" out of the way, do we have any meritorious technical issues or ideas about the format differences to further the conversation with ?? :)

What do you think of the LG player ??

b2b

sounds like a talking piece for LG; I hope they don't try to sell it in the present state without HDi...that would just be a kludge that no one would buy and no salesman in his right mind would recommend...but they certainly get an E for effort.

they also opened the flood gates ;)

btw, did i mention that i'm sold on this protective coating?? how much does it add to the cost?

And do you believe that his 400,000 number for PS3s was for worldwide? I think it should be pretty clear that it wasn't unless it was from a while ago, so why would his other numbers be for worldwide? I think his numbers are suspect in light of what Toshiba has said and what we know about the PS3 in Japan and the US (or North America).

--Darin
Hey, you got me there. Thanks for pointing that out to me. I hadn't even glanced at any of the numbers passed the three I quoted above. Looks like another set of figures I'll have to discard as suspect.

What do you think of the LG player ??I have no interest in the player, but it's going to be interesting watching the legal fireworks about the HD-DVD logo. At least they didn't try to call it the iPhone! :D

btw, did i mention that i'm sold on this protective coating?? how much does it add to the cost?

Last I read was that it was a single "spincoat" process that formed the entire .1mm cover layer. UV cured, without the need of any additional coatings for durability. That is my impression of the process, but the details were sketchy (in otherwords don't quote me on this.. ;) )

b2b

Your post is a good example of challenging the poster and not the information.
No, it was a sneeky way of telling you to butt out. Amir and Talk are two old lovers locked in their own private embrace. It's rude to interupt such potent passions.

As to readings of who is and isn't high up the corporate food chain that's a game for another day. Though I will say that TSD deserves to open doors for a living, while Alex Millions should be King of at least a minor African nation. The End.

sounds like a talking piece for LG; I hope they don't try to sell it in the present state without HDi...that would just be a kludge that no one would buy and no salesman in his right mind would recommend...but they certainly get an E for effort.

they also opened the flood gates ;)


Yeah, I just don't understand it. If the current BD players don't even have a currently working BD interactivity layer, and aren't slated to conform to one (whatever it may be) until summer of 2007, and HDi has been functioning on HD DVD players for some time now, you'd think it would have made more sense to have HDi and not the BD interactivity at this stage, not the other way around.

I agree, I truly hope they have HDi in their hybrid hardware soon. IME/U-Control/Other flavors have been pretty nice on the HD DVD titles so far, it would be a shame to lose them.

I have no interest in the player, but it's going to be interesting watching the legal fireworks about the HD-DVD logo. At least they didn't try to call it the iPhone! :D

I'm sure there is going to be some lawyers arm wrestling over the issue.. ;) In the mean time this is the "normative" description of what a player has to do..
4. Player Implementation Guideline (Normative)


4.1 Test Mode for Trusted content
If the HD DVD-Video content is protected by the copy protection system, it is assumed to be treated as
Trusted content. Thus if the HD DVD-Video player supports the copy protection system, it is strongly
recommended to support to play back the Trusted content with full function.

In this case, the full functions of the player are required to be verified at the Verification Laboratories using
test disc as described in HD DVD-Video Test specifications. However, if the test disc is not protected by
copy protection system, the player recognizes it as the non-Trusted content disc and doesn't play back it with
full function. Thus it is strongly recommended that the player should have the test mode which enables full
functions of the player only for the test purpose even if the content of the test disc is not protected by the
copy protection system. Because the test disc for the full functions may not be protected by the copy
protection system. How to change to enable the test mode should be informed only to the Verification
Laboratories in the case that the player is submitted to the Verification Laboratories to be verified.

Note: In near future, the signed mode content which is authorized by the Authority may be introduced as one
of HD DVD-Video content and the player is required to play back the signed mode content as
mandatory. Once the signed mode content is introduced, the test disc for full functionality will be
created as the signed mode content to test the full functions of the player. In the case, the test mode
is not required to be implemented to the player.
It would seem that if the player "passes' with the test disc it is good to go.. :)

b2b

I'm not challenging his technical information.

I'm offering constructive feedback by asking people to follow the rules of this thread and forum. You don't win additional supporters by attacking others. This strategy benefits those already on your side and often times alienates those that are neutral. You can win people with convincing discussions.
It was good of you to offer feedback which would help Talk win people to his PoV.

But a PM would suffice for that (if you believe in not attacking the poster, that is). The advice need not be public and if it is public, it comes under the heading of being about the poster and not the post.


P.S. Before someone jumps one me for not PM-ing, I have never tried to live up to or enforce the moral code of "attack only the post". I am just pointing out a better way to Magic and hopefully this is not seen as a attack, by him or others.

No, it was a sneeky way of telling you to butt out. Amir and Talk are two old lovers locked in their own private embrace. It's rude to interupt such potent passions.

As to readings of who is and isn't high up the corporate food chain that's a game for another day. Though I will say that TSD deserves to open doors for a living, while Alex Millions should be King of at least a minor African nation. The End.

That's twice now I have seen members told to "butt out". If it is a "private embrace" then why is on these public forums?

Will you be publishing a list of which threads and/or conversations it's ok to join in?

I am quite hopeful about 1.5x speed (I am not sure, but I though 1 gen drive is 1x; rest may already be over-designed as I mentioned). I also hope they can read TL which will be much trickier, but not entirely impossible (well, borderline).

The part about bandwidth is interesting. If the first Broadcom chips can handle 40Mbps, then the solution will be trivial (of course easier said than done). By the way, can Xbox360 handle 40Mbps AVC?

Let's hope this works out. I just hope that Toshiba and DVD Forum are being serious this time around instead of taking all of us (consumers) for a ride once again.

What about all the delays involved in bringing out players has given you an idea that any of this is trivial?

The Broadcomm chip maybe can handle it. Is there sufficient buffer space to feed the chip? Is the processor fast enough? Is the decoder chip clocked at a high enough frequency to do it (higher clocks mean more heat and increased cooling requirements)?

The drives can maybe do 1.5x. What is the access time? Is that sufficient for seamless layer change and branching at the high bandwidth? Is the PRML circuitry that extracts the data off the disc capable of being updated for TWO DISTINCT configurations?: 15/15 and 17/17/17

The laser power maybe sufficient. How about in the real world when there are scratches, dust and smudges? If TL turns out to be very sensitive, then the consumer experience may be an issue.

I think Toshiba needs to come clean very soon about the viability of supporting this on current players. Otherwise it means a lot of people will be sitting on their hands waiting. Or assuming it will work, only to be disappointed and then angry that they were mislead in some way. Neither is a good situation.

Gary

Yeah, I just don't understand it. If the current BD players don't even have a currently working BD interactivity layer, and aren't slated to conform to one (whatever it may be) until summer of 2007, and HDi has been functioning on HD DVD players for some time now, you'd think it would have made more sense to have HDi and not the BD interactivity at this stage, not the other way around.

I agree, I truly hope they have HDi in their hybrid hardware soon. IME/U-Control/Other flavors have been pretty nice on the HD DVD titles so far, it would be a shame to lose them.

Actually there is no BD player that supports interactive functionality (BD-Live), or has even announced software upgradability to get this functionality in the future. The PS3 could potentially be upgradable, but Sony has made no commitment to do so. I spent some time talking to the PS3 folks at CES about this specific subject.

Is the PRML circuitry that extracts the data off the disc capable of being updated for TWO DISTINCT configurations?: 15/15 and 17/17/17
Since Toshiba has been working on this (TL) for over a year, then maybe the current gen 2 drives, the Toshiba ones -- not the NEC 1st gen drives, are already updated (PRML wise) for this configuration? Just a thought that the A2/XA2 and 360 add-on maybe good to go. We'll see in the next 6 months I'll bet.

Since Toshiba has been working on this (TL) for over a year, then maybe the current gen 2 drives, the Toshiba ones -- not the NEC 1st gen drives, are already updated (PRML wise) for this configuration? Just a thought that the A2/XA2 and 360 add-on maybe good to go. We'll see in the next 6 months I'll bet.

Perhaps. That is definitely possible. But, what about the LG player everyone is on about? What about the new burner drive coming out?

I'm saying that Toshiba should be able to say one way or the other. And they should tell everyone soon. Not six months from now.

Would you take the risk and buy an A2/A20/XA2/LG before this is known?

Gary

Perhaps. That is definitely possible. But, what about the LG player everyone is on about? What about the new burner drive coming out?

I'm saying that Toshiba should be able to say one way or the other. And they should tell everyone soon. Not six months from now.

Would you take the risk and buy an A2/A20/XA2/LG before this is known?

Gary

Yep, just bought the XA2. Not worried about it at all. But I do agree with you, Toshiba needs to come out soon and put the news out.

The Broadcomm chip maybe can handle it. Is there sufficient buffer space to feed the chip? Is the processor fast enough? Is the decoder chip clocked at a high enough frequency to do it (higher clocks mean more heat and increased cooling requirements)?

The drives can maybe do 1.5x. What is the access time? Is that sufficient for seamless layer change and branching at the high bandwidth? Is the PRML circuitry that extracts the data off the disc capable of being updated for TWO DISTINCT configurations?: 15/15 and 17/17/17

The laser power maybe sufficient. How about in the real world when there are scratches, dust and smudges? If TL turns out to be very sensitive, then the consumer experience may be an issue.Gary,

Would you quit being a realist. I want them to continue working on it, not kill it now.

:)

--Darin

Would you take the risk and buy an A2/A20/XA2/LG before this is known?Yep :o . Bought a XA2 (and already have a 360 add on for the downstairs PC and also a XA1). But I'll admit that I am not typical ;).

Got the XA2 for the 1080p/24 promise. The Reon chip's upconversion is another very big benefit. With 38+ HD DVD discs I want to be able to play them in all the watching locations in the house. I no longer buy SD DVDs -- rarely rent them. I plan on building a new downstairs PC with Windows Vista, E6600 Intel, nVidia 7950 and a few TBs of hard drive space to get ready for MMC. Just another AVS HTPCer. :D The question is do I need a XBOX 360 to play upstairs or will MS ever let me share content to another PC as a client? Or how about the XA2 runing disc-less as a client on the home network?

More puzzlement on the "Meridian" on the "To be or not to be" HD-DVD player.

A report from a 2006 audio show...
The Team zombie nailed a 50 second lap straight out of the gate, impressive given we’ve never played the game before. Perhap the best entertainment to be had was at the traditional opening day press debate. This year the speakers, Bob Stuart and John Bamford from Meridian and Charlie Brennan from Arcam, rounded on the opposing forces behind HD DVD and Blu-ray, declaring the imminent format war a “disaster in the making.”
None had a good word to say about the situation, with the trio predicting that not only would the end-result would be analogous to the SACD and DVD-A conflict, but the mess was as potentially catastrophic as bird flu. Said Brennan: “My fear is that this will not turn out to be a war at all because buyers will stay away from both formats.’ He concluded by urging the assembled press to tell their readers to ’stick with DVD.”
Great advice at a show whose principal aim is persuade the buying public to invest and enthuse about new technology.
And then the original report of Bamford giving the "what you talkn' about ?" when posed with the CES announcement.
So says brand spokesman John Bamford, who claims that he was surprised to read that the company had been announced as a hardware partner by the HD DVD Promotion Group during its Las Vegas CES press event.
“We’re interested in HD DVD, but we’re also interested in Blu-ray,” says Bamford. “Meridian has been helping the HD DVD group with encoding and technical issues but our involvement appears to have been blown up out of all proportion. If we were to launch an HD DVD deck it would not appear for years.”
Then Amir's reply to the issue..
Well, it seems that he is uninformed about his company's decisions. As you can imagine, press releases do not go out without completely sign off from both sides and extensive reviews at executive levels. I personally worked with Bob Meridan on this and I can share with you that he and rest of the company is totally excited about being the first high-end company to support HD DVD and being the pioneer in digital A/V products as they have been. And to my knowledge, have no plans to support BD format.

The dectective in me says that when the suspects are questioned in separate rooms we're getting differing accounts of the incident (ever seen Hoodwinked ? :) )

The final puzzlement is the lack of any PR direct from Meridian (either by PR release or on their website). Big news at CES and passing fancy in the old UK perhaps ??

Quote:
Originally Posted by rlsmith
Amir,
Can you suggest to your contacts at Meridian that they issue a formal press release? It would be helpful to have a confirmation about their plans and also whatever details they can provide.
Quote: amirm
Yes, they are right on it. Bob is trying to get a hold of his web team to post the press release on their site. He thinks it may take a day or so though. They are also working to take down the incorrect info on the blog.

b2b

I own a PS3 also. You know, that majority BR player you're banking on, as indicated in your sig.

Ofcourse, in your head, MS and Toshiba will simply go away after the CES PR battle. I remember even a stronger version of this attitude after the last CES. Hey, who knows!? maybe even "palladin" will return to bash HD DVD now that BR has "put an end to HD DVD" yet after another CES.
Who rattled your cage, chum? :(

In fact, I recently complimented HD DVD in this very thread, but that's neither here nor there.

Besides, between the Meridien mischaracterization and Universal's "vewy, vewy quiet" stance:

http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/01/10/universal-no-new-hd-dvd-titles-for-2007-announced/

any purported "bashing" of the format would be overkill, when they're doing such an exemplary job of shooting themselves in the foot.

Oh, and btw, some here may recall that I noted at this forum some time back that it was my understaning Universal was 'tied in' to a certain extent with Toshiba as part of the King Kong deal. The current events do little to demonstrate the contrary.

_____________________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

What about all the delays involved in bringing out players has given you an idea that any of this is trivial?You mixed two issues I was talking about:
The first one, the optical pickup side: not trivial. As I said. The hope comes from wishful thinking that they over-designed recent drives. I am not that hopeful for the 1gen or 1.5gen drives, but it is possible.

The second one is about high bandwidth encode. The use of 'trivial' in my comment comes in play only if the decoders used in the the players upto now are designed to handle 40Mbps. You can see why. Also, the player delays aside, by the time all this is played out, we can assume that they have got a good hang of the software part. This doesn't include any kind of interactivity enhancements that may get added. If these players can play "the damn movie" early adoptors would be fine with that. But then, maybe, I don't understand other early adopters.

The Broadcomm chip maybe can handle it. Is there sufficient buffer space to feed the chip? Is the processor fast enough? Is the decoder chip clocked at a high enough frequency to do it (higher clocks mean more heat and increased cooling requirements)? You raise good points. Just for the sake of counter-points: I think processor speed should not matter much for video decoding (Broadcom chip) as well as audio decoding (since they use DSPs). If decoder chip is able to handle 40Mbps already, it won't need to be overclocked. I think the buffer issue will be handled in a similar manner by itself if chip is designed to handle 40Mbps. Since the rest of the design is PC based, it gives hope that other components should be able to match the throughput. Another point to keep in mind is that we are talking about 'fixing' old hardware, and certain assumptions apply: For example, what would be the peak bandwidth used? It is not necessary for the old hardware to sustain 40Mbps decoding (which will be required only for MPEG2 in practical sense). Bandwidth issue is not as bleak as it seems, IMO.

The drives can maybe do 1.5x. What is the access time? Is that sufficient for seamless layer change and branching at the high bandwidth?Not a big issue, in my opinion. With the understanding that we are talking about making older players compatible with newer specs. If they can play the movies these issues may pale in comparison! :)

Is the PRML circuitry that extracts the data off the disc capable of being pdated for TWO DISTINCT configurations?: 15/15 and 17/17/17Generally there are multiple PRML targets that are programmable. But, anyway, as I said earlier, this part is not at all trivial; in fact in my opinion if not impossible it is borderline for TL to work on 1st gen drives (or even 1.5gen drives since I don't know how much changed). It is not just the optical channel, but the servo has to be fine tuned too. For all I know, the extra layer may just make it impossible for the servo to track the inner most layer. Not trivial at all.

The laser power maybe sufficient. How about in the real world when there are scratches, dust and smudges? If TL turns out to be very sensitive, then the consumer experience may be an issue.Good points, again.

I think Toshiba needs to come clean very soon about the viability of supporting this on current players. Otherwise it means a lot of people will be sitting on their hands waiting. Or assuming it will work, only to be disappointed and then angry that they were mislead in some way. Neither is a good situation.I am a Blu-ray supporter, and being selfish, I don't care if Toshiba comes clean or not! :p As long as the HD-DVD spec includes this new disc, I will be happy! I guess you know why.

Having said this, I really really hope that Toshiba is not taking everyone for a ride again! :(

On the meridian issue ... let me just briefly touch upon history.

Those who know DVD-A/SACD battle, will remember that Meridian's MLP was the chosen codec for DVD-A. Needless to say they were mighty opposed to Sony's SACD.

PS : In the HT show we had sometime back in Definitive Audio here - Tosh's HD-A1 was the source for the Meridian-Faroudja (which, BTW, are now the same company) setup.

So, what is the point. If someone had asked me to guess which high-end company is going to support HD DVD, my guess probably would have been Meridian.

I think the buffer issue will be handled in a similar manner by itself if chip is designed to handle 40Mbps. Since the rest of the design is PC based, it gives hope that other components should be able to match the throughput.It all depends on how it was implemented. The software is very complex and being continually optimized. At first blush, I think throwing a 30% faster bitrate at it would cause more than a few problems. And just because a chip can handle a given input bit rate does not mean the buffers are designed to handle it - they may have been optimized for the application at firmware build time to reduce memory requirements. And there are a lot of buffers, many not documented in the specs, in a such a system. And what about trick play modes, which many people forget about?

For example, our chip can input a 120Mbps bitstream. But if a BD bitrate increased 30% over spec, that would cause a lot of problems without re-tweaking the software.

OTOH, I can't see them proposing this without having tested it out. Toshiba is usually very good about that. Their proposals are usually pretty solid techinically. Maybe they knew this was coming and designed for it ahead of time.

^^^Thanks for your comments.

Without hope, life can be boring!

It all depends on how it was implemented. The software is very complex and being continually optimized. At first blush, I think throwing a 30% faster bitrate at it would cause more than a few problems. And just because a chip can handle a given input bit rate does not mean the buffers are designed to handle it - they may have been optimized for the application at firmware build time to reduce memory requirements. And there are a lot of buffers, many not documented in the specs, in a such a system. And what about trick play modes, which many people forget about?

For example, our chip can input a 120Mbps bitstream. But if a BD bitrate increased 30% over spec, that would cause a lot of problems without re-tweaking the software.

OTOH, I can't see them proposing this without having tested it out. Toshiba is usually very good about that. Their proposals are usually pretty solid techinically. Maybe they knew this was coming and designed for it ahead of time.

Call me sceptical, but just from a logistical standpoint the thoughts of a few hundred thousand "customer applied field upgrades" seems like an invitation to tech support hell. ;)

Just to add a bit.. A 2% customer problem rate on 200,000 units would = 4,000 broken systems to deal with.

b2b

Call me sceptical, but just from a logistical standpoint the thoughts of a few hundred thousand "customer applied field upgrades" seems like an invitation to tech support hell. ;) They've done it 4 or 5 times already. :)

OTOH, once you get a lot of players out there from many different manufacturers, then all bets are off. If you have to do it, do it now...

They've done it 4 or 5 times already. :)

OTOH, once you get a lot of players out there from many different manufacturers, then all bets are off. If you have to do it, do it now...

OK.. 50,000 @ 2% problem rate x 4 = 4,000 support calls... ;) I guess they are used to it by now then.

Yes quick, do it quick !! 2.8M by the end of 2007 don't forget ... :D

b2b

OTOH, I can't see them proposing this without having tested it out. Toshiba is usually very good about that. Their proposals are usually pretty solid techinically. Maybe they knew this was coming and designed for it ahead of time.Have you seen anything to indicate that 1.5x spin rate is part of the TL51 proposal, other than the comment from Amir that said he believed that came with it? I haven't seen any more definitive statement from him and (I know I'm repeating myself) I think we need to be careful about assuming that it is definitely part of that proposal just off that one comment.

--Darin

And the operative word there is "renting". Hardcore gamers (The first 4 or 5 million people who buy a PS3/XBox 360) tend to be the type who will netflix/rent a movie instead of buying it. Sure, there'll be hardcore movie buffs lumped in there who have a DVD library in the hundreds and will prefer to buy, but if I had the choice to sped $60 on Oblivion or buy two 2 hour movies, I'd choose the game every time. A movie gets me 2 hours, maybe 3 or 4 of entertainment, decent if I'm going to rent it. I've played over 100 hours of oblivion already.Okay, put on your thinking cap and think for 2 seconds.

THINK. THINK.

If current 1 million PS3 owners tend to rent than buy, then the rental stores would see a huge spike for BD rentals, wouldn't it? Even if the gamers don't buy, this spike is no small change. The rental stores HAVE TO BUY the discs to keep their customers happy by having BD movies in stock. That still means a SPIKE in BD sales.

This in turn lets studios know what is selling and what is selling as rental units.


fuad

Have you seen anything to indicate that 1.5x spin rate is part of the TL51 proposal, other than the comment from Amir that said he believed that came with it? I haven't seen any more definitive statement from him and (I know I'm repeating myself) I think we need to be careful about assuming that it is definitely part of that proposal just off that one comment.


Very true. But the most logical answer to "why?" is that Disney has said "unless we can reuse the 50GB BD encodings, forget it." That requires the bandwidth boost as well as the capacity.

A capacity increase after all the bravado that it wasn't needed would look extremely weak. It makes a lot more sense that it represents the final Disney gambit from Toshiba.

Gary

sounds like a talking piece for LG; I hope they don't try to sell it in the present state without HDi...that would just be a kludge that no one would buy and no salesman in his right mind would recommend...but they certainly get an E for effort.

they also opened the flood gates

Yeah, I just don't understand it. If the current BD players don't even have a currently working BD interactivity layer, and aren't slated to conform to one (whatever it may be) until summer of 2007, and HDi has been functioning on HD DVD players for some time now, you'd think it would have made more sense to have HDi and not the BD interactivity at this stage, not the other way around.

I agree, I truly hope they have HDi in their hybrid hardware soon. IME/U-Control/Other flavors have been pretty nice on the HD DVD titles so far, it would be a shame to lose them.

Best guess is that this was a LG Blu-ray player design that they added the HD -ROM support at the last minute. Probably don't expect to sell a lot of them if any before they can build one next summer than can support iHD.

The display at CES shows HD DVD side by side with Blu-ray on two large displays. ( Don't get me started about the Blues Brothers), even in the stage pitch, the implication is that HD DVD picture quality is a good as Blu-ray and both formats will survive,...

This player was drawing great buzz for LG, but I doubt many of these players will be sold because of price and lack of HD DVD menu support, but a newer version will probably be available soon.

Originally Posted by Capek
From the WSJ article posted a fewdays ago:

Quote:
About 695,000 consumers own either a Blu-ray or an HD-DVD player, according to Tom Adams of Adams Media Research in Carmel, Calif. But only about 25,000 have purchased stand-alone Blu-ray players. Another 400,000 consumers have Blu-ray because they bought a Sony PS3 game console. Meanwhile, about 120,000 or so have a stand-alone HD-DVD player while about 150,000 have an HD-DVD upgrade kit for their Xbox 360 game consoles, Mr. Adams says. He adds that those numbers are well in excess of the 300,000 DVD-player sales in 1997, when that technology rolled out.


And do you believe that his 400,000 number for PS3s was for worldwide? I think it should be pretty clear that it wasn't unless it was from a while ago, so why would his other numbers be for worldwide? I think his numbers are suspect in light of what Toshiba has said and what we know about the PS3 in Japan and the US (or North America).

--Darin

Hmm on the WSJ numbers? WSJ should be pretty 'responsible' journalism. Assuming his numbers are a bit old at this point 400,000 was at one point Sony's lowered estimate of the number of PS3's they would be able to ship to NA.

As it has turned out they have reported that they were able to ship more after all but that would have been the max they could have sold based on their own estimates at that time.

The hd-dvd standalone numbers might make sense at the time if Toshiba's CES quote was for standalones only. If Toshiba was including the addons then I'd agree 175,000 doesn't jive with 270,000 (120,000+150,000) unless WSJ was talking worldwide for hd-dvd and NA for PS3.

Forgive me if these points have been made earlier.

I am at CES and I have had no evening web access and have been earlier I have been too busy during daylight to post.

Just trying to catch up onthis thread has taken some time tonight,

I'm too tired to repond but I have some different takes in how CES has affected the format wars.

Blu-ray has looked better than it has ever done before in the PQ of the actual on site demos, but movie only demos are really being shown.

HD DVD has as good as Blu-ray picture quality in the demos in the LV convention center , but is showing remarkable demos of the interactivity and picture scaling properties of the 2nd gen players.

Blu-ray still has no players planned below a $799 price point , besides PS3, and no one is daring to talk publically about PS3 movie attach rates, the buzz is even with some Blu-ray CE staff that its not very high.

HD DVD is looking like it is winning the race to $299\and $199 consumer friendly price points. That may be the most significant trend of all.

Some of the comments made in this thread will start to look pretty silly in six months.

I'm to tired to post much more, but CES is not a Blu-ray slam dunk as many that have posted in the past few days may have wished it to be.

From Grubert's news post:

Meridian refutes HD DVD hardware announcement (http://avzombie.com/blog/2007/01/10/meridian-refutes-hd-dvd-hardware-announcement/)

Was anything else announced by the HD DVD group at CES outright wrong?

Gary This will be clarified soon. The blog post is misleading.

Another interesting post from mikemorel in the news thread.....

http://www.cepro.com/news/editorial/16901.html

Last year, Joone said he had a couple of concerns. First, he wondered if Sony, the lead Blu-ray technology developer, would "allow" porn. Initially, there would be few Blu-ray replication houses, and adult video might not be the highest priority. Joone blames Sony for inhibiting porn titles on Betamax way back when.

He also indicated that many of the adult video houses were embracing HD DVD because of that format's lower cost of production.

The press release announcing Digital Playground's four HD DVD titles says, "With nearly 500,000 HD DVD players on the market today and more than 2 million expected by the end of 2007, consumers continue to embrace the HD DVD format, buying titles at more than twice the rate of any high definition format."

They've done it 4 or 5 times already. :)

OTOH, once you get a lot of players out there from many different manufacturers, then all bets are off. If you have to do it, do it now...

Typical support call (well kinda typical.. :) )
ts = Tech Support : dc = distraught customer....

dc: dials 1-800-ITS-DEAD

45 mins later of listening to "your call is important to us.."

ts: Hello, this John, sorry for the delay, how can I help you today ?
dc: My new HD-DVD is dead.
ts: OK, can you tell me the last thing you did before it died ?
dc: I'm not sure, I wasn't there.
ts: You weren't there when it died ?
dc: That's right, I'm at work.
ts: Do you have the player in front of you ?
dc: No, I'm at work.
ts: Where is the player then ?
dc: At home.
ts: Was it working before you left for work ?
dc: Yes, I watched Batman last night
ts: Is there someone near the player so we can try a few things ?
dc: Yes my wife. She called me at work and told me it was dead.
ts: Does she know what happened when it died?
dc: Yes, she said she was trying to play a movie you mailed us and it died.
ts: Sir, I'm sorry, we just make the players, we don't "mail" out movies.
dc: She said we got a new disc from you and when she played it some writing came up on the screen and she got tired of looking at it and turned it off.
ts: Sir, can you hold a second I need to check something.

10 mins later of listening to "flight of the bumble bee"...

ts: Hello Sir, are you still there..
dc: Yes, I'm here.
ts: I checked with level 2 and the disc that we sent you was an upgrade disc.
dc: It wasn't a movie disc?
ts: No Sir, it was an upgrade disc to improve the performance and add new features to your player.
dc: Was something wrong with it ? Batman looked OK last night.
ts: No, Sir. Nothing was wrong with the player but it needed to be upgraded to support features on some of the new movie discs coming out.
dc: But Batman was OK
ts: What we need to do is to try the upgrade disc again.
dc: But I'm at work.
ts: Yes Sir. I know you are at work. You will need to try a few things when you get home.
dc: Does that mean I have to call you back ?
ts: Yes you can call us back when you get home, we take calls until 8am-8pm east coast time.
dc: But I'm on the west coast and don't get home until 6 pm
ts: Do you think you could call us back in the morning before work ?
dc: I guess I could.
ts: then lets do that.
dc: when I call back in the morning can I talk to you again?
ts: No Sir, I work the noon till 8pm shift an won't be here when you call, but I will put detailed notes in the call ticket. Let me give you that ticket number..
dc: Hold on for a second a let me grab a pen.. OK shoot..

Sound of keyboard clicking as ts: types in "BORKED UPGRADE"

ts: your ticket number is XAB34ZY7
dc: XAV34ZY7
ts: yes, that's it.
dc: OK I'll call back in the morning, thanks..
ts: Your Welcome...

CLICK

6:05 pm... dc: gets home, packs up HD-DVD player and takes off to Best Buy to exchange player...

:D

b2b

Since Toshiba has been working on this (TL) for over a year, then maybe the current gen 2 drives, the Toshiba ones -- not the NEC 1st gen drives, are already updated (PRML wise) for this configuration? Just a thought that the A2/XA2 and 360 add-on maybe good to go. We'll see in the next 6 months I'll bet.

Its highly probable that the third layer, if it did have an issue with the gen 1 players, (but remember its Toshiba working on both items), would be used for non critical content, so that is a gen 1 player had an issue , it still would play the movie and iHD content, The 3rd layer could be used for interactive or unlockable content, which could be download if it failed.

The gen 1players would still have 30GB of content usable under any circumstances, even if they did have a TL issue.

Typical support call (well kinda typical.. :) )


:D

b2b

Yeah, network upgrades, terrible idea. I wonder if that's why Pioneer is mailing out patch discs to all of their customers who want to watch The Descent? What was that ethernet port for again? ;)

Or was that someone with a Pioneer you were quoting?

Call me sceptical, but just from a logistical standpoint the thoughts of a few hundred thousand "customer applied field upgrades" seems like an invitation to tech support hell. ;)
Is this what you think will happen to sony when they upgrade PS3 software to upsample DVDs and add BD-Live?

Is this what you think will happen to sony when they upgrade PS3 software to upsample DVDs and add BD-Live?
I'm sure they will have some "borked" upgrades.. It's bound to happen.. They can always call 1-800-ITS-DEAD.. ;)

b2b

Since Toshiba has been working on this (TL) for over a year, then maybe the current gen 2 drives, the Toshiba ones -- not the NEC 1st gen drives, are already updated (PRML wise) for this configuration? Just a thought that the A2/XA2 and 360 add-on maybe good to go. We'll see in the next 6 months I'll bet.According to a Toshiba rep at Toshiba booth who seemed a drive engineer, their drive (including latest ones which are not shipped yet) are not designed to handle TL discs. He admitted that there is still a possibility that their drives may read TL discs by firmware update to handle shorter track pitch and (more challenging) thinner layer thickness, but he was not sure since they haven't tested.

Maybe this news (http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Ftechon.nikkeibp.co.jp%2Farticle%2FN EWS%2F20070110%2F126242%2F&langpair=ja%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools) would indicate some hints.
----
Hitachi demonstrates playback of Quadruple Layer Blu-ray Disc using "normal drive"

- Demonstration is playing a QL Blu-ray disc, switching layer and showing its signal pattern by an oscilloscope
- Each layer has different frequency signal pattern (L0:3T, L1:4T, L2:5T, L3:6T) to distinguish easily current reading layer from other layers
- Reader is not a special made equipment, it is based on Hitachi's commercial BD drive GBW-H10N with modified firmware and some part of optics

http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/article/NEWS/20070110/126242/zu1.jpg
http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/article/NEWS/20070110/126242/zu2.jpg

Wonder how many will miss that bullet point of digital cinema to the home as the application for the 100/200GB discs ...

From looking around it looks to me like the add-on is selling well on Amazon and local stores (I'm in the Seattle area). Do you think the add-on could be accounting for more than half of HD DVD players sold right now? Toshiba said more than 175k total (and their sentence included the add-on) and it seems to me that more than half of all players on the HD DVD side could be the add-on.

--DarinThe addon is selling very well. As fast as we can make them, apparently (although there appear to be plans to make them faster or something). I hadn't noticed that the Toshiba numbers were NA only, and I was quite confused for a while, considering what the XBox team had told us (unfortunately not anything I can talk about here), but it makes more sense now.

Has the yield problem of the blue laser diode been solved? Are there enough to produce the millions of machines predicted by both sides?I don't think the yields will affect us much, seeing as we're aiming at shipping only a fraction of what Sony is.

The gen 1players would still have 30GB of content usable under any circumstances, even if they did have a TL issue.The one wish I have is that these formats would use some of this disc space to include player firmware updates. Makes it no mess, no fuss....

That's twice now I have seen members told to "butt out". If it is a "private embrace" then why is on these public forums?

Will you be publishing a list of which threads and/or conversations it's ok to join in?
Public displays of affection are nothing to be affraid of. Personally, I like to watch. :eek:

But if you have difficulty telling when couples are at it hammer and tongs that could be a problem.

- Demonstration is playing a QL Blu-ray disc, switching layer and showing its signal pattern by an oscilloscope
- Each layer has different frequency signal pattern (L0:3T, L1:4T, L2:5T, L3:6T) to distinguish easily current reading layer from other layers
- Reader is not a special made equipment, it is based on Hitachi's commercial BD drive GBW-H10N with modified firmware and some part of optics
Well, if it's only slightly modified that's ok then...

Wonder how many will miss that bullet point of digital cinema to the home as the application for the 100/200GB discs ...
Higher res would seem to be the main reason for monster discs. Aren't most people aware of that? What could be interesting is if the BDA launches a new format, BD 2.5, with 4K resolutions just for the HT set.

Wonder how many will miss that bullet point of digital cinema to the home as the application for the 100/200GB discs ...

Being never satisfied with what is now, I was asking about 4K possibilities using BD last summer. :)

I predict 4K displays will be around a lot sooner than people think. Simple reason: The margins on current panels are getting tight VERY quickly.

Margin squeeze -> Offer something better for which you can charge a premium.

If Toshiba wants to launch SED, I think it will need to be at or soon at 4K.

Gary

Wonder how many will miss that bullet point of digital cinema to the home as the application for the 100/200GB discs ...

Also don't mis the 'and some optics parts' modification.

This technology isn't backwards compatible with current gen players for shure...

What is this odd story about? It doesn't make any sense. Can anyone find a link to the original story?

http://kotaku.com/gaming/blu+ray-shocker/sony-pictures-to-include-portable-movie-files-on-bluray-dvds-227862.php

Sounds a lot like Managed Copy w/pre-rendered copy.

People were speculating many months ago whether for QC purposes, the lower rez copies could be supplied rather than generated. It was one of the obvious uses for the high capacity of BD50.

It would be very challenging to get top quality from a transcoded and lowered resolution Managed Copy.

Gary

This will be clarified soon. The blog post is misleading.

I would hope it was downright wrong.

Gary

Also don't mis the 'and some optics parts' modification.

This technology isn't backwards compatible with current gen players for shure...

The drive is the least of the issues. No current player would have a decoder capable of handling 4K.

I'm sure Toshiba will counter this reuse of "old tech" with something brand spanking new like HVD. And the debates will reset. :D

Gary

Perhaps. That is definitely possible. But, what about the LG player everyone is on about? What about the new burner drive coming out?

I'm saying that Toshiba should be able to say one way or the other. And they should tell everyone soon. Not six months from now.

Would you take the risk and buy an A2/A20/XA2/LG before this is known?

Gary

Would people buy the Pioneer and other 1st gen players without hardware to decode PiP? There's risk to being an early adopter. Although someone would need to take the time to learn that 1st gen BD players don't have the decoders and can't be firmware updated to do their true task, the risk is similar.

Would people buy the Pioneer and other 1st gen players without hardware to decode PiP? There's risk to being an early adopter. Although someone would need to take the time to learn that 1st gen BD players don't have the decoders and can't be firmware updated to do their true task, the risk is similar.
The Pioneer, Sony and Panasonic are all based on the Sigma Designs SMP 8634/5 which I believe is dual-stream/PiP capable. So I don't think lack of PiP is a hardware problem. Keith Jack, any comments?

Ron

mikemorel posted this article: Blu-Ray Blues (http://www.hollywoodtoday.net/?p=122)

Especially an interesting quote by Kevin Collins, director of HD DVD Evangelism at Microsoft:

Past experience with the Sony PSP (or Play Station 2) and other gaming devices is that those who buy a stand alone movie deck will purchase about 30 new titles a year; while game players with the movie option have an attach rate around six or seven titles a year.

Perhaps. That is definitely possible. But, what about the LG player everyone is on about? What about the new burner drive coming out?

I'm saying that Toshiba should be able to say one way or the other. And they should tell everyone soon. Not six months from now.

Would you take the risk and buy an A2/A20/XA2/LG before this is known?

Gary

Until anything new is incorporated in to the spec, I think it would be premature to claim much for current players. This goes for either side: 51 GB HD DVD's and 100GB BR discs are both interesting, but given that there's no demonstratable plan to release content on either, I'm not going to lose sleep over them.

Actually, for both sides I suppose some hardware compatability at the time of submission for approval would be a good faith gesture...

this sounds to me like their strategy of including on a bd movie disc a psp version of the movie that you can put on your psp for portable playback, etc.

That's my take as well. Although I am intrigued with the idea that it's a seperate encode and not a transcode of the main content. Can anybody verify if this is true?

Yeah, network upgrades, terrible idea. I wonder if that's why Pioneer is mailing out patch discs to all of their customers who want to watch The Descent? What was that ethernet port for again? ;)

Or was that someone with a Pioneer you were quoting?

Incidentally, it's been reported elsewhere, that the issue with The Descent was that the authoring was bad: a manifest file of some sort was loacated in the root directory of the .jar on the disc, rather than in the subdir it was supposed to be in. the studio may be authoring replacement discs.

So, it would appear that the players that DID play the descent allowed a more "liberal" placement of some files, rahter than strict adherance to the spec, which in this case was a good thing.

The Pio and Sony apparently were strict spec... and I suppose that the firmware upgrade may "relax" that a bit?

In any case, both sides are bound to run in to such growing pains, and fixes/updates should be expected.

This also should support Talks claim that the issues were not incomplete BD-J (BD-Video 1.0) implementations.