Incidentally, it's been reported elsewhere, that the issue with The Descent was that the authoring was bad: a manifest file of some sort was loacated in the root directory of the .jar on the disc, rather than in the subdir it was supposed to be in. the studio may be authoring replacement discs.

So, it would appear that the players that DID play the descent allowed a more "liberal" placement of some files, rahter than strict adherance to the spec, which in this case was a good thing.

The Pio and Sony apparently were strict spec... and I suppose that the firmware upgrade may "relax" that a bit?

In any case, both sides are bound to run in to such growing pains, and fixes/updates should be expected.

This also should support Talks claim that the issues were not incomplete BD-J (BD-Video 1.0) implementations.

Paidgeek just said the opposite on the insiders thread that nothing is a matter with the disc and it is a bug with the player

What? Are you serious? :eek: You do realize that you are putting your foot in your mouth, right? It doesn't matter quickly or slowly: If a player carrying HD-DVD logo is released without fully supporting HDi and it doesn't comply (within 90 days according to Amir), then I would say that player falls into a new, ad-hoc profile, whether you call that a profile or not. You can't have it both ways. You can't attack Blu-ray player profiles, and at the same time go soft on players like LG's.

Not sure if player will get the logo. It may be replaced soon after launch with player capable of iHD.

Looks like this was their BD player with HD DVD -Rom support lashed onto it. No CPU internal nor possibly compliant dual tuner guts to do IHD. HD DVDmenu option very limited, basically text. Player searches HD DVD sic for code strings and builds menu.

More advanced model in the works to fully support HD DVD,.

Concept of a dual player big success at CES, great press, but demos of HD DVD playback limited.

Saw VP LG interview taping for CNET video spot. He stated " both formats will survive and no difference in picture quality. With his product now consumers can buy whatever disc they want.....

This is transitional product, rushed to market so they could claim it at CES. Great marketing move. Expect small impact from the actual sale of this model.

Wonder how many will miss that bullet point of digital cinema to the home as the application for the 100/200GB discs ...

At 64Mbps data rates! Mmm.. I'd love to see me some 60+Mbps 4kx2k video...

I have no interest in the player, but it's going to be interesting watching the legal fireworks about the HD-DVD logo. At least they didn't try to call it the iPhone! :D

Sorry to disapoint you b2 and talk, but there probably won't be any legal fireworks pubicly.

There won't be enough of this player sold to matter, and any models that reach the street probably won't have the HD DVD logo on them.The next generation model will probably have the full HD DVD capability and will earn the logo.

Their still will be only one HDDVD standard, unlike Blu-ray.

This may be able to play HD DVD movies but it won't be a HD DVD group sanctioned HD DVD player.

Would people buy the Pioneer and other 1st gen players without hardware to decode PiP? There's risk to being an early adopter. Although someone would need to take the time to learn that 1st gen BD players don't have the decoders and can't be firmware updated to do their true task, the risk is similar.

And that question has been repeatedly asked on here by HD DVD insiders and fans, right?

The answer seems to be a lot of people AREN'T buying the 1G players. They are going with the PS/3, which uses a software decoder, so supports PiP (or would support it if a title supported it at this point).

And with TL51 we're talking about the fundemental ability to access and decode the content, not some extra feature like PiP that people don't need to watch movies.

Gary

I'm sure there is going to be some lawyers arm wrestling over the issue.. ;) In the mean time this is the "normative" description of what a player has to do..

It would seem that if the player "passes' with the test disc it is good to go.. :)

b2b that was for passsing the security testing, not for earning the logo as a complient device

I'm sure they will have some "borked" upgrades.. It's bound to happen.. They can always call 1-800-ITS-DEAD.. ;)

b2b

Yes ... but 2% of the 6 Million Units available by March 2007 is a very very big number ... :p

btw, since there has been so much interest in quoting blogs lately, I came across a link yesterday that indicated the Sony emmy was not won for the Sixaxis, but for the Dual Shock.

http://www.thatgameblog.com/2007/01/10/sony-insert-foot-here/

If that pans out, then what are press releases worth? :confused:

Actually there is no BD player that supports interactive functionality (BD-Live), or has even announced software upgradability to get this functionality in the future. The PS3 could potentially be upgradable, but Sony has made no commitment to do so. I spent some time talking to the PS3 folks at CES about this specific subject.

The BDA had a demo on interactive features but most Blu-ray CE booths were showing movie trailers. Most looked very goood, for the first time at a major show.

In movie purchases of items shown on screen, interactive games etc. The BDA demo looked nice, but the HD DVD demos all were showing a much higher level of iHD interactivity and were showing those features on existing discs and shipping hardware.

Would people buy the Pioneer and other 1st gen players without hardware to decode PiP? There's risk to being an early adopter. Although someone would need to take the time to learn that 1st gen BD players don't have the decoders and can't be firmware updated to do their true task, the risk is similar.

I think this is a bad analogy. There's a big difference between something that's part of a spec with defined plans to release content, and something that currently is a lab experiment.

mikemorel posted this article: Blu-Ray Blues (http://www.hollywoodtoday.net/?p=122)

Especially an interesting quote by Kevin Collins, director of HD DVD Evangelism at Microsoft:


Past experience with the Sony PSP (or Play Station 2) and other gaming devices is that those who buy a stand alone movie deck will purchase about 30 new titles a year; while game players with the movie option have an attach rate around six or seven titles a year.



Certainly the lack of games is causing an initial PSP-like affect. I'm sure the next argument to gain hold will be that the movie sales will totally collapse after the games start coming out for the PS/3.

Except some part of the PS/3 sales aren't being purchased by game users. And with better availability, and many members here moving neutral, this will only accelerate.

And the PSP fall back was due to the rediculous prices of UMD and the fact that users could rip their own DVD to the device.

And the games starting to take hold of the PS/3 gamers' pschye will encourage many more deck sales, adding more of those 20% comparative attach rates.

Gary

They've done it 4 or 5 times already. :)

OTOH, once you get a lot of players out there from many different manufacturers, then all bets are off. If you have to do it, do it now...

RE the TL for HD DVD

The advantage is now all players for HD DVD on the market are toshibas.

They know what their abilities are. TL support for them if achievable would be Toshibas probelem, and Toshiba is the one pushing this TL51 concept.

they may know something we don't. The NEC drive manual or marketing piece did mention TL support so the issue is probably reliabilty and error checking of reading the 3rd layer through the other two.

One possible option is to use the 3rd layer for non essential content (unlockable trailers etc) that if they could not be read by gen 1 players could always be downloaded.I agree the time to do this is now.

Paidgeek just said the opposite on the insiders thread that nothing is a matter with the disc and it is a bug with the player

Hmm... right you are.

Well, THIS POST (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9327743&&#post9327743) purports to be a direct quote of a PM from Chris Lanier (Pioneer Corp), which is the basis for what I posted:

I am aware of the Descent not playing, however it appears to be an authoring error. The file which contains the instructions on what to do are located in the root directory of the main .jar file. These instructions are supposed to be located in a specific directory.

I am working with Lionsgate about this issue. I have every BD disc that is available worldwide and personally tested each one that was available with the player prior to shipping.

Please give me a few days to get an official response from Pioneer Japan and Lionsgate...

Thanks,

Chris


So, looks likes we may need further clarification. Whou would have guessed that two companies would point the finger at each other? :rolleyes:

And that question has been repeatedly asked on here by HD DVD insiders and fans, right?

The answer seems to be a lot of people AREN'T buying the 1G players. They are going with the PS/3, which uses a software decoder, so supports PiP (or would support it if a title supported it at this point).

And with TL51 we're talking about the fundemental ability to access and decode the content, not some extra feature like PiP that people don't need to watch movies.

Gary Agree with the low 1G Blu-ray standalone numbers. PS3 is the player of choice.

For the TL 51. 30-34 GB on the two sturdy readable layers is plenty enough for main movie content and extras etc. The third layer could be used for the extra stuff, that if it didn't work for Gen 1 players, the movie experience would still be there. That scenario would indeed be not perfect, but as Talk likes to say g1 buyers expect some of that.

Not saying that would be perfect, but 1g buyers would cope. Its not like the Gen1 Blu-ray players that don't have an internet connection nor ability to supprt BD-J.

Its not like the Gen1 Blu-ray players that don't have an internet connection nor ability to supprt BD-J.

All BD players are required to support BD-J. And are broken if they don't.

They don't need to have internet connection or support PiP (yet).

Gary

All BD players are required to support BD-J. And are broken if they don't.

They don't need to have internet connection or support PiP (yet).

Gary Point well taken.

that was for passsing the security testing, not for earning the logo as a complient device

OK, whatever you say... ;) On a side note, I noticed a civilian met you at TIVo DTV Guys store in NY and now you are being our "Man in Amsterdam" for the "industy only" CES event. Just what part of the AV/CE industry are you in ?? :)

b2b

No, it was a sneeky way of telling you to butt out. Amir and Talk are two old lovers locked in their own private embrace. It's rude to interupt such potent passions.

As to readings of who is and isn't high up the corporate food chain that's a game for another day. Though I will say that TSD deserves to open doors for a living, while Alex Millions should be King of at least a minor African nation. The End.

:D

Is this an accurate understanding of the business strategies for Blu-Ray and HD DVD?

Sony has partnered with several companies to create BD players. The stand alone devices are over $1000 with announcements of prices down to $799. In the foreseeable future, the PS3 is the most affordable BD player and it is software upgradeable to handle BD-Live. Once a Bluetooth remote is available, shouldn't it be a direct competitor to its stand alone device partners? It seems to be the most future proof player available.

Now Sony can heavily subsidize the PS3 because the can recoup that investment with gaming licenses. The BDA partners can't do that with the stand alone devices. Why is Sony drastically undercutting their partners? Are the STB manufacturers targeting the A/V enthusiasts while Sony is going after the general public?

BDA is hoping to withstand the price war by securing the majority of content owners until BD players can be more affordable. This seems like a difficult strategy to sustain when Toshiba is offering a next gen experience at a much lower price point.

This seems like it would be a large gamble. A/V enthusiasts are a small majority of the population. It is certainly not large enough to sustain a mass market product. The average consumer is just looking for a compelling experience at a reasonable price. Once the next gen players reach that threshold, momentum for wide spread adoption will start to build. It seems that HD DVD will hit this threshold first. If it can secure a larger installment base, then people will vote with their wallets.

The HD DVD group is gambling as well. The are hoping to hit the price threshold were average consumer won't care who wins the war because they can experience the next gen technology at a near throw away price. They have to reach a deployment large enough to bring more content owners to their format before BDA can bring the price down on their players.

What's really at stake is the potential for future revenue. This potential is very large as demonstrated by DVD sales. It seems that both camps are willing throw in a lot of today's dollars in the hopes of more of tomorrow's dollars. Their threshold for this investment must be pretty high. In the end this war may end in a draw with universal players giving the consumer access to all the content. So both camps now must try to win the war before the universal players become affordable. If they can't, both sides will loose a lot of revenue on their gamble.

The war will be won by the side that can convinces the average customer that they have a compelling enough experience for a reasonable price. A/V enthusiasts are a small market that can only hope to influence the average customer through a grass roots style marketing.

More puzzlement on the "Meridian" on the "To be or not to be" HD-DVD player.

A report from a 2006 audio show...

And then the original report of Bamford giving the "what you talkn' about ?" when posed with the CES announcement.

Then Amir's reply to the issue..


The dectective in me says that when the suspects are questioned in separate rooms we're getting differing accounts of the incident (ever seen Hoodwinked ? :) )

The final puzzlement is the lack of any PR direct from Meridian (either by PR release or on their website). Big news at CES and passing fancy in the old UK perhaps ??


b2b

More news about Meridian in the news thread.. Meridian Press Release...
“Meridian is a company renowned for state-of-the-art digital audio and video technology, and we are delighted to be working with Microsoft on the development of high-end players. Meridian has for some time been deeply involved in some of the core audio technology in HD DVD and at CES 2007 we are pleased to announce that we have now joined the HD DVD Promotional Group.

“Consistent with Meridian's product development approach, where standards of performance, particularly for audio and video are exceptionally high, product development takes some time, and for that reason we cannot announce any product-specific details at this time."

Seems I was right with the "passing fancy" interest. ;)

b2b

Is this an accurate understanding of the business strategies for Blu-Ray and HD DVD?

Sony has partnered with several companies to create BD players. The stand alone devices are over $1000 with announcements of prices down to $799. In the foreseeable future, the PS3 is the most affordable BD player and it is software upgradeable to handle BD-Live. Once a Bluetooth remote is available, shouldn't it be a direct competitor to its stand alone device partners? It seems to be the most future proof player available.

Now Sony can heavily subsidize the PS3 because the can recoup that investment with gaming licenses. The BDA partners can't do that with the stand alone devices. Why is Sony drastically undercutting their partners? Are the STB manufacturers targeting the A/V enthusiasts while Sony is going after the general public?

BDA is hoping to withstand the price war by securing the majority of content owners until BD players can be more affordable. This seems like a difficult strategy to sustain when Toshiba is offering a next gen experience at a much lower price point.

This seems like it would be a large gamble. A/V enthusiasts are a small majority of the population. It is certainly not large enough to sustain a mass market product. The average consumer is just looking for a compelling experience at a reasonable price. Once the next gen players reach that threshold, momentum for wide spread adoption will start to build. It seems that HD DVD will hit this threshold first. If it can secure a larger installment base, then people will vote with their wallets.

The HD DVD group is gambling as well. The are hoping to hit the price threshold were average consumer won't care who wins the war because they can experience the next gen technology at a near throw away price. They have to reach a deployment large enough to bring more content owners to their format before BDA can bring the price down on their players.

What's really at stake is the potential for future revenue. This potential is very large as demonstrated by DVD sales. It seems that both camps are willing throw in a lot of today's dollars in the hopes of more of tomorrow's dollars. Their threshold for this investment must be pretty high. In the end this war may end in a draw with universal players giving the consumer access to all the content. So both camps now must try to win the war before the universal players become affordable. If they can't, both sides will loose a lot of revenue on their gamble.

The war will be won by the side that can convinces the average customer that they have a compelling enough experience for a reasonable price. A/V enthusiasts are a small market that can only hope to influence the average customer through a grass roots style marketing.

Welcome to the "crystal ball" club !! Your "Black Magic" reading of the tea leaves is as good as anyones here. ;)

b2b

OK, whatever you say... ;) On a side note, I noticed a civilian met you at TIVo DTV Guys store in NY and now you are being our "Man in Amsterdam" for the "industy only" CES event. Just what part of the AV/CE industry are you in ?? :) b2b My badge says "industry affiliate."

Just a neutral guy working for a living who is also a home theater nut. No HD DVD or Blu-ray comapny is paying my way. Sorry that I'm not an industry insider although I may talk to some first hand. I gathering firsthand knowledge for several clients as well as myself on a number of different technologies here.

BTW I was traveling near VE and stopped by as Robert sold me my HD XA1 and probably a future HD XA2.

I didn't realize I was drafted into the format war,in that I know the guy picking up his new HD XA2 that day. He seemed to be excited about it.

Maybe you ought to try buying one of these new fangled HD players of either format? You never know , you might like it.

Do you own a player yet?

Ooops gotta go, I 'm off to gather some first hand knowledge on the CES show floor, so I at least I will know what I am talking about. ;)

Congrats to the HD-DVD team for winning the first anual "Fuddy" award given out for "Achivements" in the new area of "mind share" maniulation for the effective use of "FUD" in both printed media and Internet communication. Past winners would have been "Fox News" and the "New York Post", but because their work predated the "Fuddy" no official retroactive award can be given.. ;)

The work in this article (http://www.hollywoodtoday.net/?p=122) promped the award, as it demonstrated the effect use of prior FUD as the conerstone of any well planned campaign.
note: Prior FUD work done in the WSJ
Analyst Tom Adams of Adams Media Research offers a lower estimate of U.S. sales. He believes that between 250,000 and 400,000 PS3’s reached consumers.

The Washington Post technology columnist Mike Musgrove reported on Jan. 3 that there are also questions about the quality of some PS3 game graphics: “Remember those $2,700 eBay auctions for the PS3 when it first came out, just before Thanksgiving? They’ve since cooled off, and now it’s easy to find one on Craigslist for near list price.”

note: a bit of doubt just for "spice"
This all raises urgent questions for Sony Corp. which has made an expensive company wide bet on the success of Blu-Ray as a mass market business and PS3 as the main vehicle to launch the format.

note: And what article would be complete with some work from "Bobby"
That means instead of being a profit center for Sony, the PS3 could mean a loss of $1.5 billion, according to the web site Digital Trends, which says that HD DVD is winning the battle so far. “The movie market moves on quality of movies, price of players and price and availability of media.,” wrote Digital Trends Rob Enderle on Dec. 6.

note: A new face ? Haven't read any of "Tribbey's" stuff before..
As of the end of last year, there were about 130 movie titles available in Blu-Ray, according to Ralph Tribbey, editor of the DVD Release Report, who believes there should have been 800 titles for a proper launch. While Sony has lined up exclusive software support from Disney, Fox, MGM and others, and simultaneous releases in both formats by Warner and Paramount, only a handful are on the shelves yet.

“I’m stunned at the inability of Sony to be more aggressive when they should be,” Tribbey told Hollywood Today. “This is a life and death struggle. They (Sony) can’t afford another Beta disaster.

note: Time for our sponsor ;)
Collins says with the PS3 as key to its strategy Sony is trying to “force feed everyone a drive,” adding that they “think every gamer in the world is going to play movies.”

note: The "coup de gras " ? Opinion backed by research !!
However, much of what he has to say is echoed in the independent findings of Cymfony, which bills itself as “a market influence analytics company.” The Boston based researcher scans and interprets posts on numerous Internet social media sites, blogs and discussion boards to gain advance intelligence on what consumers are thinking.

“Sony’s plan to jumpstart Blu-Ray adoption by building it into PS3 is rejected by a significant segment of this audience,” says the Cymfony report issued Dec. 5, 2006.

There's more but you get the idea... ;)

Congrats to the winners, you know who you are... :)

b2b

My badge says "industry affiliate."

Just a neutral guy working for a living who is also a home theater nut. No HD DVD or Blu-ray comapny is paying my way. Sorry that I'm not an industry insider although I may talk to some first hand. I gathering firsthand knowledge for several clients as well as myself on a number of different technologies here.

BTW I was traveling near VE and stopped by as Robert sold me my HD XA1 and probably a future HD XA2.

I didn't realize I was drafted into the format war,in that I know the guy picking up his new HD XA2 that day. He seemed to be excited about it.

Maybe you ought to try buying one of these new fangled HD players of either format? You never know , you might like it.

Do you own a player yet?

Ooops gotta go, I 'm off to gather some first hand knowledge on the CES show floor, so I at least I will know what I am talking about. ;)
I'm holding out for the Jiangsu Zhenjiang Star Group HD-DVD player, I heard it might come with some free "bonus" saw blades in the box... ;)

http://www.zhenjiangstar.com/pubimages/b3.jpg

b2b

I'm holding out for the Jiangsu Zhenjiang Star Group HD-DVD player, I heard it might come with some free "bonus" saw blades in the box... ;)

http://www.zhenjiangstar.com/pubimages/b3.jpg

b2b

Are you sure that's a not a pre-announcment of the new upcoming SAW Blade movie??? :D

on Blu-Ray *and* HD-DVD???

At 64Mbps data rates! Mmm.. I'd love to see me some 60+Mbps 4kx2k video...

Yep. We just get started, and before you know it, comes the time we have to say so long. :)

I'm always looking ahead. Toshiba: 4Kx2K SED please! :)

Gary

For the TL 51. 30-34 GB on the two sturdy readable layers is plenty enough for main movie content and extras etc. The third layer could be used for the extra stuff, that if it didn't work for Gen 1 players, the movie experience would still be there.The characteristics of L0 and L1 are also changed on a TL disc, such as layer thickness (and more inter-layer crosstalk due to this), decrease of reflective ratio, narrow track pitch, etc., etc.

Not saying that would be perfect, but 1g buyers would cope. Its not like the Gen1 Blu-ray players that don't have an internet connection nor ability to supprt BD-J.In the HD DVD network demonstration at the Toshiba HD DVD theater, the precentor mentioned that they use 1G player with special modification. I asked him what the "special modification" meant and he said it has a special firmware, no hardware modification. He also said, 1G and 2G players are not shipped with firmware to handle internet/network functions, both are required to be updated when the new functionalities are authored on a disc.

Yep. We just get started, and before you know it, comes the time we have to say so long. :)

I'm always looking ahead. Toshiba: 4Kx2K SED please! :)4Kx2K has 4x bigger size of HD, it may require 4x bandwidth. IF 54Mbps is enough for HD presentation, 216Mbps may be enough for 4Kx2K for home theater purpose, it means 6x speed (current BD and HD DVD drives are 2x speed).

FYI: Pioneer's newly announced BD/DVD/CD combo drive has 5x speed reading of a BD-ROM disc.

I'm holding out for the Jiangsu Zhenjiang Star Group HD-DVD player, I heard it might come with some free "bonus" saw blades in the box... ;)

http://www.zhenjiangstar.com/pubimages/b3.jpg

b2bCool, you can be one of millions of people who buy this player. Tell us how it goes. Remember, a lot of people who shop at walmart don't care if it's J/K or meridian, all they look at is the price. In terms of playback quality, you may be surprised with this player. (In a good way)
Funnily enough, I actually don't own an HD player either yet :D. Of course, I have 4 players in my office.

I can't figure out how a price-fixated Wal-mart customer manages to end up with an HDTV instead of an EDTV.

There seems to be plenty of utterly cheap 42" EDTV plasmas, etc. around. It's a complete waste to get an HD disc player for those.

Gary

What? Are you serious? :eek: You do realize that you are putting your foot in your mouth, right? It doesn't matter quickly or slowly: If a player carrying HD-DVD logo is released without fully supporting HDi and it doesn't comply (within 90 days according to Amir), then I would say that player falls into a new, ad-hoc profile, whether you call that a profile or not. You can't have it both ways. You can't attack Blu-ray player profiles, and at the same time go soft on players like LG's.
Keith - I think it goes without saying that the player cannot carry the logo if it does not comply. That means that LG has 90 days from release in which to either make it compliant or introduce a new player and withdraw the first one from the market.

That's essentially what I was saying here.

This is very different to the Bluray profile situation, as you know, since the Bluray specs have been intentionally created with three different profiles, and the current migration from the current profile will leave the early buyers in the lurch.

I'm thinking that LG may be required to carry a disclaimer on this first unit.

Congrats to the HD-DVD team for winning the first anual "Fuddy" award given out for "Achivements" in the new area of "mind share" maniulation for the effective use of "FUD" in both printed media and Internet communication. Past winners would have been "Fox News" and the "New York Post", but because their work predated the "Fuddy" no official retroactive award can be given.. ;)

The work in this article (http://www.hollywoodtoday.net/?p=122) promped the award, as it demonstrated the effect use of prior FUD as the conerstone of any well planned campaign.

There's more but you get the idea... ;)

Congrats to the winners, you know who you are... :)

b2b

While you're at it ... why not include the debacle with Sony's Emmy not being for the Sixaxis Controller ... it looks like the pulled their press release and haven't posted any updates or restrations ... it's no different hyping the PS3 like that when it's the "most popular" blu-ray player, no?

I'm still waiting for the superior quality part. When do we get to see that? I dont want to see any more debates on whether or not the PQ is equal with the advantages BR has it should clearly be able to show a superior quality over HD DVD right?PQ on both formats are now, based on current display technologies, clearly very close to as good as they are going to get, given the 9's and 10's (or 4.5's and 5's) they are being rated at. Tiny incremental improvements beyond what we currently see are simply not going to make a meaningful difference to consumers (OhMyGod - at 1:10:35.34 I saw an artifact!!!). AQ is another story - clearly Blu-ray's capacity advantage has resulted in far more titles with lossless audio. More recent titles are showing additional benefit, such as multiple endings, PiP, more HD features, etc. The future is pointing to more BD-J (including Sony and Disney), bundled content (Sony), etc.

Focusing purely on PQ is totally missing the big picture.

No, TL51 is different. Reason, when they went to develop and test 51 to prepare for submission to the forum, they realized they could do better, so they worked on it a bit. My guess is this is specifically why it was not submitted last year after all.

I also would guess that it is VERY ready for ratification toute-suite.Of course, given that few in the DVD Forum are willing to vote against them (and the Blu-ray supporters will typically abstain).

PQ on both formats are now, based on current display technologies, clearly very close to as good as they are going to get, given the 9's and 10's (or 4.5's and 5's) they are being rated at. Tiny incremental improvements beyond what we currently see are simply not going to make a meaningful difference to consumers (OhMyGod - at 1:10:35.34 I saw an artifact!!!). AQ is another story - clearly Blu-ray's capacity advantage has resulted in far more titles with lossless audio.

More recent titles are showing additional benefit, such as multiple endings, PiP, more HD features, etc. The future is pointing to more BD-J (including Sony and Disney), bundled content (Sony), etc.

Focusing purely on PQ is totally missing the big picture.

Hi Talk, yes I agree there is room for the audio to improve.

My main point however is that with extra storage space to allow for higher bitrates and increased bandwidth we should clearly be seeing picture quality superior to hd dvd releases, correct?

An no I dont knit pick over occasional artifacts rather then just base my opinion on the movies overall picture quality.

And since you bring up new and recent interactivity again I'd also have to point out that 11 out of 14 bd50 titles scheduled for 07 release are all under 2 hrs in length. I'd rather do without these PIP type features if its going to interfer and limit the size of the movies being released

Yeah, I just don't understand it. If the current BD players don't even have a currently working BD interactivity layerILJG, this is simply wrong. Every BD player has a fully-implemented BD-J layer. Unless you claim the only definition of interactivity is network support, in which no HD DVD titles have demonstrated interactivity, either.
you'd think it would have made more sense to have HDi and not the BD interactivity at this stage, not the other way around.Sure, if HDi could be implemented on hardware (SoC) fully capable of supporting BD-J.

Actually there is no BD player that supports interactive functionality (BD-Live)BD-Live refers to network connectivity. Every BD player supports interactive functionality (BD-J).

Its highly probable that the third layer, if it did have an issue with the gen 1 players, (but remember its Toshiba working on both items), would be used for non critical content, so that is a gen 1 player had an issue , it still would play the movie and iHD content, The 3rd layer could be used for interactive or unlockable content, which could be download if it failed.Wow, The Descent's use of encoding to achieve PiP is somehow unacceptable and this scheme you propose is fine? :eek:

The BDA had a demo on interactive features but most Blu-ray CE booths were showing movie trailers. Most looked very goood, for the first time at a major show.

In movie purchases of items shown on screen, interactive games etc. The BDA demo looked nice, but the HD DVD demos all were showing a much higher level of iHD interactivity and were showing those features on existing discs and shipping hardware.Where? I spent 90 minutes yesterday afternoon looking for the "new" HDi interactivity. First stop: Microsoft booth. Asked around, finally shown two laptops playing video only from HDi. Second stop: HD DVD booth. Booth rep had no idea what I was talking about, but said maybe it was being shown in the Microsoft press tent in the parking lot, and that Kevin Collins would probably know. Third stop: Toshiba booth. The rep pointed me to the HD IP download video demonstration which had nothing to do with HD DVD.

And, yes, my badge was covered the whole time so no one knew I might be a Blu-ray supporter.

Is this an accurate understanding of the business strategies for Blu-Ray and HD DVD?
...
The war will be won by the side that can convinces the average customer that they have a compelling enough experience for a reasonable price. A/V enthusiasts are a small market that can only hope to influence the average customer through a grass roots style marketing.

Only other thing to consider is that by the time this happens ... something else has come which makes HiDef DVD unattractive. Just like MP3/napster won over SACD/DVD-A. We don't know ...

At this CES, there were quite a few HD download announcements that were made ....

As you say, the only option is to get players out there that are inexpensive enough for J6P to choose when replacing their failed DVD player. Inexpensive HD players also allow them to be bundled with HDTVs (given away free). Some 10M HDTVs are getting sold every year and even if half of them come with a player - thats a lot. Ability of HD DVD to be able to achieve this seems higher than BD at the moment ....

Is this an accurate understanding of the business strategies for Blu-Ray and HD DVD?

Sony has partnered with several companies to create BD players. The stand alone devices are over $1000 with announcements of prices down to $799.The Samsung is available for under $600; the Philips is under $900. And by most definitions the PS3 is a standalone player (one unit, stick in a disc and it plays).
Once a Bluetooth remote is available, shouldn't it be a direct competitor to its stand alone device partners? It seems to be the most future proof player available.One can certainly make this argument. It's not suitable for all buyers (difficult at best to integrate into universal remote, no current DVD upsampling, no current 1080p24 support, no RS-232 support, doesn't "look like" typical HT equipment, etc.), but clearly represents strong competition for low-end players.
Now Sony can heavily subsidize the PS3 because the can recoup that investment with gaming licenses. The BDA partners can't do that with the stand alone devices. Why is Sony drastically undercutting their partners?Because for all Blu-ray supporters building format support in the short-term is more important than whose player is selling. The PS3 is clearly a more expensive player to manufacture than would be a low-end standalone, so as the Blu-ray market increases there will be plenty of opportunity to ship a low-end player priced at or below the PS3 while still generating a profit.
Are the STB manufacturers targeting the A/V enthusiasts while Sony is going after the general public?Several (i.e. Panasonic, Pioneer) are clearly taking this approach.
BDA is hoping to withstand the price war by securing the majority of content owners until BD players can be more affordable. This seems like a difficult strategy to sustain when Toshiba is offering a next gen experience at a much lower price point.Except that Toshiba has nowhere near the consumer outreach of the combined Blu-ray supporters (walk into most A/V stores and you'll see what I mean), and the studios are clearly voting for the Blu-ray approach. And when a consumer considers what titles are available (see my signature), many will consider HD DVD industry support to be clearly insufficient.
A/V enthusiasts are a small majority of the population. It is certainly not large enough to sustain a mass market product. The average consumer is just looking for a compelling experience at a reasonable price. Once the next gen players reach that threshold, momentum for wide spread adoption will start to build.Exactly, and the PS3 has propelled Blu-ray into the mass market far faster than price cuts alone can.
It seems that HD DVD will hit this threshold first.I would contend that Blu-ray already has - recent software sales figures and projections demonstrate that.

Alex Millions had this to say about the LG player (I guess he's still getting those CED updates) -

According to LG execs quoted in today's CED, they're going to release it sans HD DVD logo...it will not be submitted for certification. LG is describing it as a Blu-ray player that happens to play HD DVD movies. It will *not* be upgraded to support HDi; the next gen model will, though.

My main point however is that with extra storage space to allow for higher bitrates and increased bandwidth we should clearly be seeing picture quality superior to hd dvd releases, correct?My point is few would be able to see an improvement beyond the already very high PQ. For most of the titles which have been released (which have good source material, anyway) PQ is already good enough for the vast majority, even HT fanatics. There are a few titles (Lawrence of Arabia, LoTR) where the bandwidth and capacity could clearly enable a Blu-ray release to have noticeably better PQ. The Blu-ray demo at CES has a segment from a compressionist (at Disney, as I recall) who discusses this very point.
And since you bring up new and recent interactivity again I'd also have to point out that 11 out of 14 bd50 titles scheduled for 07 release are all under 2 hrs in length. I'd rather do without these PIP type features if its going to interfer and limit the size of the movies being releasedI don't disagree with your analysis that the announced titles tend toward the short side, but there is simply no evidence that encoding-based PiP has anything to do with this. Lions Gate is the only studio who has used this approach, and frankly I doubt that PiP is so compelling a feature to enough consumers that the studios are deciding which titles to release based on being able to offer that prior to widespread availability of secondary video-enabled players.

My main point however is that with extra storage space to allow for higher bitrates and increased bandwidth we should clearly be seeing picture quality superior to hd dvd releases, correct?


Not with no qualifications. The existence of more capacity and higher bandwidth doesn't turn a Warner HD DVD encoding transfered to BD into something that clearly must have better quality, right?

I think many of us would assume that the superior would come from the USE of the bandwidth AND the modern codecs. Not merely its existence.

At the very least, the luxury of capacity and bandwidth reduces the compressionists time to encode, and allows more titles to be released at the same quality.

Gary

Many of your comments are hostile or are just trying to spread fear, uncertainty and doubt (FUD). This tone causes people to quickly dismiss your viewpoint. If you wish to gain support for the BDA, your current strategy is not the best way.I appreciate the feedback. I have not intentionally posted FUD, although I understand this is a subject point and what some consider FUD others may not.
Feel free to ask for time management tips - I'm getting plenty done!Its comments like the above that help to reduce your creditability.Sorry, Black Magic, but I surely did not lobby the first volley here:
First, I have a job to do at CES, unlike you who seems to have a ton of time on his hands during the show.
I may ignore such personal attacks from some posters, but not from one whose posts are viewed as gospel by many.
Are you serious trying to compare yourself to Amir?How so? I have never suggested that I am or am not in a corporate executive role. The fact that Amir claims such broad responsibilities yet clearly has much time to devote here is a question which as been raised by others.

What? Are you serious? ...<cut>

Keith - I think it goes ...<cut>

You quoted the wrong guy! Is something wrong with you?


rdjam, this is the second time you have done this, calling me Keith. The first time I thought it was an honest mistake. Please, don't do it again. Not that I dislike the name or person, but it is irritating. I am not Keith.

Not everyone does what you do, if you know what I mean.

Where? I spent 90 minutes yesterday afternoon looking for the "new" HDi interactivity. First stop: Microsoft booth. Asked around, finally shown two laptops playing video only from HDi. Second stop: HD DVD booth. Booth rep had no idea what I was talking about, but said maybe it was being shown in the Microsoft press tent in the parking lot, and that Kevin Collins would probably know. Third stop: Toshiba booth. The rep pointed me to the HD IP download video demonstration which had nothing to do with HD DVD.They have demonstration of networking functionality at the HD DVD theater in Toshiba booth. The demo was like sharing a playlist with someone else, made a playlist in one player, uploaded to the "server" PC, and the other player downloaded that playlist and played it, and downloading new trailer.

I could not find same sort of demonstration at HD DVD PRG booth nor Microsoft booth. They were just playing video clips, same as BDA and BD companies.

Amir, you've responded to dozens of posts since I posted this. Was my reference and URL to the exact document and section not specific enough for you to respond to the questions posed here?

you described something having to do with streaming. You are apparently feigning ignorance of Enhanced Video Format, as described in section 3.3.2 of the HD DVD-Video Guideline for Player and Content (http://www.dvdforum.org/images/HD_DVD-Video_Guideline20060828.pdf):
3.3.2 Bitrate for Enhanced Video format (optional)
It is not mandated to for a player to decode Sub Video stream which is Enhanced Video format. If a player support Enhanced Video format in Sub Video stream, the bitrate for each codec defined in [Table 6.3.5-3] shall be decoded.Perhaps you could explain to use what Enhanced Video format is, whether any current HD DVD players support it, and whether it's something the studios might care to use?
- Talk

They were just playing video clips, same as BDA and BD companies.No, the BDA booth has a demonstration of BD-Live networked content (running on a standard build of Cyberlink's PowerDVD, incidentally) just to the right of the main theater area. The demo shows a trivia game running on top of X-men 3 where multiple players can compete against one another.

- Talk

Alex Millions had this to say about the LG player (I guess he's still getting those CED updates) -

According to LG execs quoted in today's CED, they're going to release it sans HD DVD logo...it will not be submitted for certification. LG is describing it as a Blu-ray player that happens to play HD DVD movies. It will *not* be upgraded to support HDi; the next gen model will, though.
There goes my talking point! :) Good move by DVD Forum, applying pressure on LG. Less confusion in market place the better.

If Battlestar Galactica is released before Universal goes neutral, I will be forced have to look closely at the 2nd gen LG if not the PC drive.

No, the BDA booth has a demonstration of BD-Live networked content (running on a standard build of Cyberlink's PowerDVD, incidentally)
That doesn't seem that incidental to me.

I was otherwise occupied while at CES, so didn't get a chance to see any of the BD stuff other than the LG player. Were there any announced BD-Live players that would have been able to play that disc instead?

They aren't. The PS3 is retail $499, which is the lowest price of any complete HD-DVD player.
No. Study your history. VCR's were introduced at ~$1000. CD players were introduced at ~$1000. DVD players were introduced at ~$1000. Blu-ray and HD-DVD players were announced for introduction at ~$1000. Then, Toshiba wisely recognized that they were going to be toast unless they did something dramatic, and dropped their entry-level launch price to $499. Blu-ray vendors have rejected the notion that they have to race to the lowest price (which simply assures none of the vendors will recover their R&D investments) and has held the line, though now with multiple vendors and robust competition prices are falling (exactly as has happened with every other comparable format).
Machines incapable of supporting secondary video comprise less than 5% of the installed base today. Studios will not create content based on such a minority lowest common denominator. Recall your history, lots of DVD authoring features standard today also didn't work on 1G players.


I haven't yet read through to the end of this thread so if this has been answered please forgive me.

Talk, are you saying that the BDA CE's have recooped there R&D investments with the 1-10,000 units they each sold?

Is that why prices are dropping already or is it possible because they realize that their patchwork functionality that should not have been launched until mid 2007 when they have everything in order (assuming they do by then) cannot possibly compete with better and lower priced HD-DVD players or even their own BDA CE Sony PS3 which is also 1/2 their price?

Serious, come on now. It's things like this magic PIP stuff that continues to reinforce my determination NOT to give my money to Sony. The BDA folks should thank god for HD-DVD or else you would still be watching FTE quality level BD movies paying $1,500 for players and not know any better.

I for one choose NOT.

Cheers,

Richard

I was otherwise occupied while at CES, so didn't get a chance to see any of the BD stuff other than the LG player. Were there any announced BD-Live players that would have been able to play that disc instead?I didn't see any announcements regarding BD-Live support (committing that given players either would or wouldn't support it). I did note that the new Samsung and the LG appear to have ethernet connections.

No one has said they will play, either.

What I am saying is that it would be disturbing if the people producing BD players and content knew at the time the first generation players started being sold that in approximately one year there would be such a drastic change in requirements and capabilities that the first generation players would not be able to deal with.

I didn't have the benefit of your advice when I purchased first generation players in both formats. I may well have done so even with my current knowledge. But it would have been nice to have been able to make a more informed decision.

LOL, do you not believe they knew? Why do you think there were such short production runs.

Talk is it your oppinion that the CE's had no idea that the units there were producing did not meet the spec and that at least for some would not be able to take advantages of features on disks to be rolled out after mid year 2007?

Cheers,

Richard

Talk, are you saying that the BDA CE's have recooped there R&D investments with the 1-10,000 units they each sold? No; clearly regardless of how many units any vendor has sold for either format, no one has even begun to recoup R&D. Nor do I see where I implied that they have.
Is that why prices are dropping already or is it possible because they realize that their patchwork functionality that should not have been launched until mid 2007 when they have everything in order (assuming they do by then) cannot possibly compete with better and lower priced HD-DVD players or even their own BDA CE Sony PS3 which is also 1/2 their price?How about the more obvious answer that prices are dropping because there is more competition, and price is one way to differentiate? Pioneer reports they are fully sold-out of their $1500 player. While no one is pretending they have shipped 100's of K's of players, there's simply no reason to drop prices if sufficient volume of players are selling at current prices.
Serious, come on now. It's things like this magic PIP stuff that continues to reinforce my determination NOT to give my money to Sony.If secondary video support is a must-have feature, then you probably shouldn't buy Blu-ray today until such a feature is announced by a given vendor. Of course, if Fox, Disney, Lionsgate, Sony, or MGM content is important to you an HD DVD player won't suffice, either. And I'm reasonably certain secondary video will come to Blu-ray long before any of that content comes to HD DVD...

Talk is it your oppinion that the CE's had no idea that the units there were producing did not meet the spec and that at least for some would not be able to take advantages of features on disks to be rolled out after mid year 2007?Any CE producing a Blu-ray player would certainly be aware of future format requirements.

How about the more obvious answer that prices are dropping because there is more competition, and price is one way to differentiate? Pioneer reports they are fully sold-out of their $1500 player. While no one is pretending they have shipped 100's of K's of players, there's simply no reason to drop prices if sufficient volume of players are selling at current prices.

100's of K's of players? :D At best, thousands of players based on estimates of total standalones. But your point is still valid, if they can only produce a couple of thousand players, no use reducing the price.

Any CE producing a Blu-ray player would certainly be aware of future format requirements.

Aware of, but there's no reason to assume that they will be upgradeable for future requirements unless they explicitly say so.

Yikes! So HD-DVD movies will outsell BD movies by 1.5:1 in 2007? That's not good news for Disney.Fox says Blu-ray titles will outsell HD DVD by 3.5:1 by the end of March.

Fox says Blu-ray titles will outsell HD DVD by 3.5:1 by the end of March.

Just curious ... but what access does Fox have to HD-DVD sales data? They're Blu-Ray only, right? So it's not like they were neutral and could compare internally ... is this based on surveys? Some third party research group? etc?

Just curious ...

Just curious ... but what access does Fox have to HD-DVD sales data? They're Blu-Ray only, right? So it's not like they were neutral and could compare internally ... is this based on surveys? Some third party research group? etc?

Just curious ...

They are making forecasts....just like the weatherman. Who, by the way, gets to keep his job if he is correct only 5% of the time :p

ILJG, this is simply wrong. Every BD player has a fully-implemented BD-J layer. Unless you claim the only definition of interactivity is network support, in which no HD DVD titles have demonstrated interactivity, either.


What about interacting with something like U-Control or IME? Why aren't features available like that on BD titles?

Moving this answer from insider thread to here.

Several posters here have indicated a desire for full disclosure as to features in the respective format specs which might be optional. While the optionality of DTS-HD MA decoding support is quite well-known, the mere existence of Enhanced Video seems to be a well-kept secret, let alone what it does and whether a consumer ought factor in support for this feature in any purchase decision.
I think you may have confused the questions posed to you on this front. No one is arguing about optional features of a standard being bad in itself. What they are arguing about is optional features which content owners may utilize, in some cases very shortly after their expensive purchases, causing them to have wasted money on an incompatible product. While there may be generic interest in knowing all features of a format, the angst is over the issue above. Let me give some examples to elucidate this point.

MP3 is a feature that is optionally supported in many DVD players. But you see no cry over it being "optional." Reason? No Hollywood movie uses MP3 as its sole sound track, causing people who have DVD players without MP3 to watch said movies in silence. The optional feature allows product differentiation without impact on general applicability of the format.

By the same token, WMA Pro is optional in DVD, and hence HD DVD. But no content owner uses WMA Pro for soundtracks either, so consumers are not concerned about it.

In contrast, if a BD title uses PiP and the player lacks secondary video decoder, that becomes an issue for people. People see the title advertising such feature when they buy it, having an expectation to see it play in their machine with the same logo as the box.

Now, the question becomes whether PiP is a feature that is reasonably expected to become available in BD titles. The answer is obviously yes, given the fact that studios that target both formats, use it in their HD DVD product. So this clearly sets the stage for missed expectations with reasonable demand from users to be so informed about what they have bought.

What’s more, the studios in DVD Forum spent tremendous amount of time and effort, documenting all of these scenarios. Once put on notice this way, the DVD Forum rightfully moved to make all the platform features mandatory. Those included mandatory lossless audio, PiP, persistent storage, networking and such. There was nothing in the document talking about using WMA Pro or MP3, to use the examples above. So they were fine to be left optional. As was a second lossless audio codec after the first was made mandatory.

What is also significant here is that Disney played a key role in creating the above scenarios in DVD Forum as did Warner. So one can reasonably assume that the same ideas were presented to BDA. The fact that BDA heard their intentions to use such feature, yet decided to go ahead and make them optional is a problem. They knew what was coming, yet built made those features optional and proceeded to build products without them.

So yes, your meta point is valid that both formats have optional features. And while disclosure has been much better on HD DVD side than BD (we are still waiting to see any language describing the optional features of BD format here despite numerous requests by users and insiders alike whereas DVD Forum has published the above scenario doc), I am sure one can do more. But this is an entirely different matter than what people here are questioning you and BDA about. Making basic features optional and then creating titles in short order to use them is the problem.

They are making forecasts....just like the weatherman. Who, by the way, gets to keep his job if he is correct only 5% of the time :p

I wanted to be a weatherman ... but I was either too pretty, or too often correct ... I can't remember which. ;)

Just curious ... but what access does Fox have to HD-DVD sales data? They're Blu-Ray only, right? So it's not like they were neutral and could compare internally ... is this based on surveys? Some third party research group? etc?Couple of possibilities come to mind. It has been suggested that the studios are sharing sales information. Alternatively, they almost certainly all subscribe to Nielsen VideoScan (http://www.videoscan.com/about.html) or equivalent, which could surely provide such data. I was with a Lionsgate rep on Tuesday (the day Crank was released) and he was getting realtime updates of sales data on his Blackberry, which would certainly suggest a service such as this.

The fact that Warner showed detailed slides indicating studio market share of hi-def titles in their TotalHD presentation provides further evidence that the studios are privy to detailed sales data.

No, the BDA booth has a demonstration of BD-Live networked content (running on a standard build of Cyberlink's PowerDVD, incidentally) just to the right of the main theater area. The demo shows a trivia game running on top of X-men 3 where multiple players can compete against one another.

- Talk

So there was not a single real player that could do BD- Live on a network? Thats a bit disturbing don't you think. After all, there are how many companies making BR players now?

Man, are there going to be some very, very upset customers demanding a refund because they were not told that the $1000.00 - $1500.00 player they just bought is not capable of this basic function. Good luck with that one Talk!

What about interacting with something like U-Control or IME? Why aren't features available like that on BD titles?IME and U-Control are simply names assigned to Warner's and Universal's user interfaces, respectively. Sony has Blu-Wizard, which has a different set of features than IME but is similarly intended to provide a consistent experience across titles. There is also work underway to build more elaborate BD-J based user interfaces. I expect we'll see these titles released in the coming months.

So there was not a single real player that could do BD- Live on a network? Thats a bit disturbing don't you think. After all, there are how many companies making BR players now?

Man, are there going to be some very, very upset customers demanding a refund because they were not told that the $1000.00 - $1500.00 player they just bought is not capable of this basic function. Good luck with that one Talk!

Actually, what concerns me most is that there doesn't really appear to be a timeline for BD-Live ... the June 2007 release is for BD1.1 ... is there any kind of roadmap for BD2.0? I would think that if BD-Live-Compatible Players were going to be released this year, they would at least have a prototype shown at CES?

Any CE producing a Blu-ray player would certainly be aware of future format requirements.


Whew, good thing you didn't let consumers know too! :confused:

Couple of possibilities come to mind. It has been suggested that the studios are sharing sales information. Alternatively, they almost certainly all subscribe to Nielsen VideoScan (http://www.videoscan.com/about.html) or equivalent, which could surely provide such data. I was with a Lionsgate rep on Tuesday (the day Crank was released) and he was getting realtime updates of sales data on his Blackberry, which would certainly suggest a service such as this.

The fact that Warner showed detailed slides indicating studio market share of hi-def titles in their TotalHD presentation provides further evidence that the studios are privy to detailed sales data.
Even though the two companies came to wildly different conclusions? Personally, I'm pretty leery of fox's predictions, which seem to make the assumption that the pre-holiday spending orgy is useful to make predictions with. But then I'm also leery of Warner's numbers, since I think they're pulling the player numbers out of thin air. (And also, if every disc they sell is a THD disc, do you count it for BD or HD DVD, where do you put the revenue?)

In the end it's easier to just do what you can to make your format succeed and watch what happens.

(And also, if every disc they sell is a THD disc, do you count it for BD or HD DVD, where do you put the revenue?)
.

Probably it would go into both or a third breakdown. I would bet that at some time next year we see some reports that count universal discs/players in both markets and then mistakenly overstate the market by adding both together.

Either that or I assume some form of factor would be applied based on the assumed percentage of each player type in the buying audience. In that case what do you do with the revenue of a Universal Disk bought for a Universal player or for multiple players (each type).

IME and U-Control are simply names assigned to Warner's and Universal's user interfaces, respectively. Sony has Blu-Wizard, which has a different set of features than IME but is similarly intended to provide a consistent experience across titles. There is also work underway to build more elaborate BD-J based user interfaces. I expect we'll see these titles released in the coming months.

I realize that U-Control and IME are just the studio specific names for them, my point was that if all players are capable of BD-J right away (and I'm not saying that they are not) why haven't any BD titles been authored to provide a similar experience as of yet? This was my interactivity point, not the BD-Live portion. Not that the BD players are "capable" of providing U-Control/IME-like functionality, just that they aren't currently, where as the HD DVD studios have been providing that kind of capability on their releases.

Moving this answer from insider thread to here.


I think you may have confused the questions posed to you on this front. No one is arguing about optional features of a standard being bad in itself. What they are arguing about is optional features which content owners may utilize, in some cases very shortly after their expensive purchases, causing them to have wasted money on an incompatible product. While there may be generic interest in knowing all features of a format, the angst is over the issue above. Let me give some examples to elucidate this point.

MP3 is a feature that is optionally supported in many DVD players. But you see no cry over it being "optional." Reason? No Hollywood movie uses MP3 as its sole sound track, causing people who have DVD players without MP3 to watch said movies in silence. The optional feature allows product differentiation without impact on general applicability of the format.

By the same token, WMA Pro is optional in DVD, and hence HD DVD. But no content owner uses WMA Pro for soundtracks either, so consumers are not concerned about it.

In contrast, if a BD title uses PiP and the player lacks secondary video decoder, that becomes an issue for people. People see the title advertising such feature when they buy it, having an expectation to see it play in their machine with the same logo as the box.

Now, the question becomes whether PiP is a feature that is reasonably expected to become available in BD titles. The answer is obviously yes, given the fact that studios that target both formats, use it in their HD DVD product. So this clearly sets the stage for missed expectations with reasonable demand from users to be so informed about what they have bought.

What’s more, the studios in DVD Forum spent tremendous amount of time and effort, documenting all of these scenarios. Once put on notice this way, the DVD Forum rightfully moved to make all the platform features mandatory. Those included mandatory lossless audio, PiP, persistent storage, networking and such. There was nothing in the document talking about using WMA Pro or MP3, to use the examples above. So they were fine to be left optional. As was a second lossless audio codec after the first was made mandatory.

What is also significant here is that Disney played a key role in creating the above scenarios in DVD Forum as did Warner. So one can reasonably assume that the same ideas were presented to BDA. The fact that BDA heard their intentions to use such feature, yet decided to go ahead and make them optional is a problem. They knew what was coming, yet built made those features optional and proceeded to build products without them.

So yes, your meta point is valid that both formats have optional features. And while disclosure has been much better on HD DVD side than BD (we are still waiting to see any language describing the optional features of BD format here despite numerous requests by users and insiders alike whereas DVD Forum has published the above scenario doc), I am sure one can do more. But this is an entirely different matter than what people here are questioning you and BDA about. Making basic features optional and then creating titles in short order to use them is the problem.

As somebody who has probably been a bit of a thorn in at least Talk's side about this, I'd like to add my 0x10 cents worth:

I have tried to consistently state that what is of greatest concern is optional feature implementation without DISCLOSURE. Optional features in and of themselves are not bad (and likely necessary to ever get anything done ian a reasonable time frame and/or cheaply).

That having been said, I don't ncessarily expect the disclosure to be a flashing neon sign. Logo programs have seemed to work reasonably well. The caveat, however, is that there is also a base-level expectation that people have, due to advertising, etc... additionally, with a new format introduction and it's new features, the absence of a logo may not really be enough.

Finally, the likely impact of a feature probably plays into the prominence of the needed disclosure as well.

A few examples:

1) Given that the public is "aware" of DVD, they should reasonably expect that they will always get audio and video. Above and beyond that, if they see additional logos on the software (i.e. TrueHD), they can match those to their hardware (also logo'ed), and expect GREATER fidelity. This is medium impact, in that if they don't have the matching logo, they still get the feature, just not in it's highest fidelity.

2) (This is where the base level due to advertising kicks in) If the collective advertising collateral demonstrates a feature (such as live menu overlay), and there is no logo or disclaimer associated with it ("DynaMenu avaialable only where you see the "DM" symbol"), then everybody should just assume it's part of the new format and it will always work. This is high impact, in that if a player does not support it, the feature is completely absent. PiP seems to fall in to this catagory. As does HDi and BD-J.

3) Hardware implications and expectations. If a deck has a visible hardware feature, and the advertising collateral touts the functionality that would imply it's reliance on that hardware feature, then it should be clear when this hardwre feature does NOT support the advertised functionality. An example with high impact (because much ado is made of networked capability) is an ethernet jack. A low impact example might be USB ports (which I've never seen any demo for)

4) Obscure seldom/never utilized optional features. These are spec items that may never even be seen in a deck or have content written for them. I'm sure every spec has such things. Apparently buried in the DVD spec is support for 22:9
aspect ratio encoding. Likewise I'm sure there are portions of BR and HD DVD that we may never know about unless a trivia thread shows up here. These should be low impact. However if their use in content should become popular, a manufacturer should disclose. The "additional on-disc video" Talk has referenced may be an example of this for HD DVD (I don't know enough about it).

Bottom line: Don't set expectation for baseline functionality in your advertising collateral you don't deleiver. Provide value-add features by means of clear logos. Educate what hardware features mean to people. Don't ever "surprise by absence" - make a consumer happy that they got a feature they didn't know about, don't disappoint them by omitting one they did know about without disclosing clearly they weren't getting it. These are new formats... the onus in on the format backers to be overly-forthright as consumers don't have an operational base to draw from for many of these things yet.

Even though the two companies came to wildly different conclusions? Personally, I'm pretty leery of fox's predictions, which seem to make the assumption that the pre-holiday spending orgy is useful to make predictions with. But then I'm also leery of Warner's numbers, since I think they're pulling the player numbers out of thin air. (And also, if every disc they sell is a THD disc, do you count it for BD or HD DVD, where do you put the revenue?)

In the end it's easier to just do what you can to make your format succeed and watch what happens.

Excellent post. I agree. In the end there is no reason to believe either. Let's see what actually happens.

Gary

Even though the two companies came to wildly different conclusions? Personally, I'm pretty leery of fox's predictions, which seem to make the assumption that the pre-holiday spending orgy is useful to make predictions with.They look pretty bogus to me too, but the good news is that they are such short term that it shouldn't be all that long before we have evidence to use for or against (probably mostly against IMO).
But then I'm also leery of Warner's numbers, since I think they're pulling the player numbers out of thin air.Are you talking about Warner's predictions for next year? Last year's (including their software sales prediction) didn't seem to be even close and this years don't sound realistic to me either. But then there are Toshiba's numbers. I'm still trying to figure out how they got the numbers they did for players when I also believe that the XBOX360 add-on would represent more than half the HD DVD players out there. Maybe someone's claim that Toshiba sold 60k second gen standalones wasn't true, since just looking at sales rankings, stock in stores and things I just don't come to anything like "greater than 175k" total with well over half being standalones. I'm hoping that we will get some year end figures for sales of the XBOX360 add-on just like we did for November (at least the report I saw said the 42k was for sales).
(And also, if every disc they sell is a THD disc, do you count it for BD or HD DVD, where do you put the revenue?)I was wondering about what that would do to their ability to see how things are selling between the 2 formats also.

--Darin

I was wondering about what that would do to their ability to see how things are selling between the 2 formats also.


No matter how you see the sales going, THD is going to be propping up the sales of the losing format.

Gary

But then there are Toshiba's numbers. I'm still trying to figure out how they got the numbers they did for players when I also believe that the XBOX360 add-on would represent more than half the HD DVD players out there. Maybe someone's claim that Toshiba sold 60k second gen standalones wasn't true, since just looking at sales rankings, stock in stores and things I just don't come to anything like "greater than 175k" total with well over half being standalones. I'm hoping that we will get some year end figures for sales of the XBOX360 add-on just like we did for November (at least the report I saw said the 42k was for sales).Aah, see, you're making the same mistake I did in assuming the numbers apply to even remotely the same thing. The 175K is North America only, the 60K is probably worldwide (which includes Europe, where the only HD DVD standalone is their 2nd gen one)

Aah, see, you're making the same mistake I did in assuming the numbers apply to even remotely the same thing. The 175K is North America only, the 60K is probably worldwide (which includes Europe, where the only HD DVD standalone is their 2nd gen one)I know the 175k is NA, and the 60k could be worldwide, but my gut feeling is that the numbers still aren't right. Maybe the standalones are selling way better in Europe than it seems like. Did they even get the player over there before the middle of December? I thought the XBOX360 add-on was their only player available for a while.

If I had heard the 60k from Toshiba (the same people with the 175k+) it would be one thing, but it was a secondhand report here and I'm still skeptical at this point that Toshiba sold almost as many 2nd gens as 1st gens in maybe 3.5 weeks (and maybe less for the HD-E1).

--Darin

No one is arguing about optional features of a standard being bad in itself. What they are arguing about is optional features which content owners may utilize, in some cases very shortly after their expensive purchases, causing them to have wasted money on an incompatible product.Like if Toshiba's TL51 format is adopted? Except TL51 would likely make the whole disc incompatible rather than just bonus content requiring secondary video. And don't suggest this point is irrelevant, because if Toshiba weren't considering TL51 for future product they wouldn't have developed and announced it, hence there is the real possibility of a whole generation of current HD DVD owners being "left behind" (far more than Blu-ray owners whose machines won't support secondary video).
MP3 is a feature that is optionally supported in many DVD players. But you see no cry over it being "optional." Reason?Because it's not part of the DVD specification. I'm not upset that I can't poach an egg with my toaster, either, even though I could have bought a toaster with an egg poacher (http://www.amazon.com/Back-to-Basics-TEM500-Egg/dp/B000B18P96?tag2=gp04-20).

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/126/354575279_231db87a65.jpg

By the same token, WMA Pro is optional in DVD, and hence HD DVD. But no content owner uses WMA Pro for soundtracks either, so consumers are not concerned about it.How about Enhanced Video? You still haven't told us what it is, so we can't judge whether it's a feature worth waiting for support of. Further, how forthcoming is Microsoft regarding how you support lossless audio on the Xbox 360 HD DVD add-on? No, I don't see text proclaiming support for TrueHD, yet the format has made it mandatory. How would a customer learn that the supposedly mandatory lossless audio will in fact be lossy on the Xbox add-on unless they have done a great deal of research?

What is also significant here is that Disney played a key role in creating the above scenarios in DVD Forum as did Warner. So one can reasonably assume that the same ideas were presented to BDA. The fact that BDA heard their intentions to use such feature, yet decided to go ahead and make them optional is a problem. They knew what was coming, yet built made those features optional and proceeded to build products without them.The fact the BDA made those features optional means they, presumably including Disney and Warner, decided the benefits to making them optional outweighed the benefits to making them mandatory. Or, if this decision was made prior to Disney and Warner joining the BDA, then they joined in spite of knowing that these features would be optional. Either way, it appears it's a decision they can live with given that none of the Blu-ray studios seems interested in dropping Blu-ray support.

What benefits are there to keeping network connectivity optional, you ask? Several I can think of offhand. Time-to-market, certainly. There clearly was some pressure not to trail the less-ambitious competing format by too great a timespan in releasing product to market. Another benefit is greater manufacturer flexibility. A manufacturer who wishes to target the low end of the market need not include a network connection and 1GB of local storage for A/V; this will allow for a tier of lower-cost devices and greater manufacturer differentiation. Consumers who simply want the least expensive possible player without regard to bonus content may well likey find such an option attractive, and studios won't factor that audience into their bonus content decisions since the fact they chose a player without network connectivity implies they wouldn't have been interested in that content anyway.

Amir, there are no absolutes here - it's all shades of gray. Both formats are sufficiently complex that there will always be features or handicaps which only an educated consumer will understand, and even the most educated consumer will probably be unaware of certain benefits or drawbacks, albeit far more intricate ones than a less-educated consumer. There are aspects to the specifications which even you and I, whose job responsibilities require us to know as much as possible about our respective formats, are unaware of.

I didn't see any announcements regarding BD-Live support (committing that given players either would or wouldn't support it). I did note that the new Samsung and the LG appear to have ethernet connections.
Given your complaints about HDi currently being available only on "PC platform" devices, it's somewhat amusing to note that a full Windows-based PC seems to be the only way to demo BD-Live content today.

Actually, what concerns me most is that there doesn't really appear to be a timeline for BD-Live ... the June 2007 release is for BD1.1 ... is there any kind of roadmap for BD2.0? I would think that if BD-Live-Compatible Players were going to be released this year, they would at least have a prototype shown at CES?To be clear, there is no BD2.0. There are two profiles, originally known as one and two, now known as BD-Video and BD-Live.

That said, I don't consider the fact that no players claiming BD-Live compliance were shown at CES to be significant. In a mature market (i.e. televisions) CES is often where any new product to be released in the coming year will be shown. In an emerging market product development is on a compressed timescale (hence first-quarter 2007 release of the LG and Samsung players which hadn't ever been previously discussed). Neither Sony, Pioneer, Philips, nor Panasonic formally discussed second-generation players, yet I have little doubt they all have them under development for release yet this year. Bottom line, I expect that any newly released Blu-ray player with an ethernet connection will ultimately be BD-Live compatible.

Man, are there going to be some very, very upset customers demanding a refund because they were not told that the $1000.00 - $1500.00 player they just bought is not capable of this basic function.The only $1K+ Blu-ray player with an ethernet connection is the Pioneer, and Pioneer has been very upfront that their player will not support online content. I honestly don't believe anyone who buys a $1K+ player and cares about online content isn't going to at least check to see if it has network support.

I realize that U-Control and IME are just the studio specific names for them, my point was that if all players are capable of BD-J right away (and I'm not saying that they are not) why haven't any BD titles been authored to provide a similar experience as of yet?Because a)BD-J is a more complex platform than HDi, and so until some higher-level authoring tools mature, developing for it is a more labor-intensive process, b)Microsoft apparently devoted significant resources to working with both studios in the implementation of those features, and c)HD DVD had a several month headstart.

Maybe someone's claim that Toshiba sold 60k second gen standalones wasn't true, since just looking at sales rankings, stock in stores and things I just don't come to anything like "greater than 175k" total with well over half being standalones.I saw the 60K second gen figure posted here by someone who generally means well, but has misstated facts like this before. It was claimed very shortly after availability of the HD-A2, making it look very suspect. Further, Toshiba announced (http://www.cepro.com/news/editorial/16826.html) sale of 60K gen one machines at CES, so I'm quite sure that's where the 60K figure comes from. Combine that with perhaps 90-100K Xbox add-ons and 15-25K RCA's, HD DVD-enabled computers, and gen 2 players and you've got 175K.

Because a)BD-J is a more complex platform than HDi, and so until a range of authoring tools emerge, developing for it is a more labor-intensive process, and b)Microsoft apparently devoted significant resources to working with both studios in the implementation of those features.
We don't author the HD DVD titles. The studios do. We do train the creative people though in the studios. You know, "teach them to fish" principal.

One would think Sun Microsystems would care enough about Java to do the same. Are you saying they are not?

Do you think there is a (c) above also? As in, it is very difficult to get BD-J working due to wide variation in performance and capability of each implementation?

How about Enhanced Video? You still haven't told us what it is, so we can't judge whether it's a feature worth waiting for support of. I did, in the insider's thread. You can stop going on about it now. I also remember a number of posts months ago where it was described too. I expect that no titles will ever use it, since they can get the same functionality with less bandwidth use by using the required features (despite the fact that I'm relatively certain that all released players, and all upcoming (logo'd) players could support it). How about you guys, with your optional features?

We don't author the HD DVD titles. The studios do. We do train the creative people though in the studios. You know, "teach them to fish" principal.I think that falls into the category of "working with the studios", as I posted.

Do you think there is a (c) above also? As in, it is very difficult to get BD-J working due to wide variation in performance and capability of each implementation?That would be (d), and sure, the fact you've got (as of today) six different models from five different manufacturers plus several diverse PC playback applications is going to create a more complex testing environment than the far less diverse range of HD DVD manufacturers and hardware.

No matter how you see the sales going, THD is going to be propping up the sales of the losing format.

Gary

Depending on the price premium, THD could end up diminishing sales of both formats... ;)

b2b

How about Enhanced Video? You still haven't told us what it is, so we can't judge whether it's a feature worth waiting for support of.
It was posted earlier - it's an optional mode for full-resolution secondary video. It's optional, it's not being advertised or recommended, and so it's a non-issue.

Further, how forthcoming is Microsoft regarding how you support lossless audio on the Xbox 360 HD DVD add-on? No, I don't see text proclaiming support for TrueHD, yet the format has made it mandatory. How would a customer learn that the supposedly mandatory lossless audio will in fact be lossy on the Xbox add-on unless they have done a great deal of research?
Care to tease out your point a bit there? The critical part about mandatory features is whether content is decoded, not how it's transmitted. There's a huge difference between having audio recompressed, and audio that simply isn't heard by the consumer! It's similar to the Xbox 360 using component HD out. It's not like that means that the discs aren't digital, or that consumers can't get a great video/audio experience out of it.

Depending on the price premium, THD could end up diminishing sales of both formats... ;)

b2b

This should be self-evident, but if the development of production efficiencies resulted in a relatively insignificant premium, THD might be embraced by the other neutral studios, along with consumers who have heretofore been reticent to buy into either format because of obsolescence anxiety. This would also tend to diminish the relevance of these ridiculously counterproductive exclusivity agreements. IMHO, these technologies should be competing on their relative merits: all attempts to monopolize content, be damned.

This should be self-evident, but if the development of production efficiencies resulted in a relatively insignificant premium, THD might be embraced by the other neutral studios, along with consumers who have heretofore been reticent to buy into either format because of obsolescence anxiety. This would also tend to diminish the relevance of these ridiculously counterproductive exclusivity agreements. IMHO, these technologies should be competing on their relative merits: all attempts to monopolize content, be damned.


If they keep selling separate BD and HD-DVD releases and the THD discs cost MORE, I would be very surprised to see them sell more than a marginal amount. This would be their opportunity to stop packaging separate releases.


The critical part about mandatory features is whether content is decoded, not how it's transmitted. There's a huge difference between having audio recompressed, and audio that simply isn't heard by the consumer! It's similar to the Xbox 360 using component HD out. It's not like that means that the discs aren't digital, or that consumers can't get a great video/audio experience out of it.

This isn't encouraging. :(

Care to tease out your point a bit there? The critical part about mandatory features is whether content is decoded, not how it's transmitted. There's a huge difference between having audio recompressed, and audio that simply isn't heard by the consumer!Amir was referring to consumers being upset that they hadn't been educated on whether a given Blu-ray player would support a given feature. I believe the way the Xbox 360 HD DVD add-on handles audio presents a similar customer letdown.
The critical part about mandatory features is whether content is decoded, not how it's transmitted.Sorry, that's not good enough. Decoding 1080p VC1 but outputting only via an RF modulator to channel three is an unsatisfactory situation. A customer reads that TrueHD, lossless audio, is one of the mandatory features of HD DVD. So they happily buy an HD DVD add-on, yet are unable to enjoy lossless sound. Yes, the add-on is decoding the lossless sound. Yes, the sound they do hear may be of perfectly reasonable quality. Nonetheless, they aren't getting the lossless sound which they reasonably expected based on the format's promise of mandatory support for lossless sound. It seems that Amir thinks Blu-ray player manufacturers ought to advertise "does not support secondary video", or some such disclaimer. If so, Microsoft ought be advertising "not capable of lossless audio output".

Where? I spent 90 minutes yesterday afternoon looking for the "new" HDi interactivity. First stop: Microsoft booth. Asked around, finally shown two laptops playing video only from HDi. Second stop: HD DVD booth. Booth rep had no idea what I was talking about, but said maybe it was being shown in the Microsoft press tent in the parking lot, and that Kevin Collins would probably know. Third stop: Toshiba booth. The rep pointed me to the HD IP download video demonstration which had nothing to do with HD DVD.

And, yes, my badge was covered the whole time so no one knew I might be a Blu-ray supporter.

They probably have secret RFID's in those badges. The silent alarms went off when you get within 50'. ;)

But seriously in the South Hall the Microsoft booth and Intel booth both have signs saying HDi with people staffing those demos. I talked to the guy in the Microsoft booth as he was doing his demo of HDi functionality.

I didn't see any announcements regarding BD-Live support (committing that given players either would or wouldn't support it). I did note that the new Samsung and the LG appear to have ethernet connections.

I asked about this in the Blu-Ray booth as well. Apparently there are no players currently announced that have promissed upgradability to BD-Live. So the current ethernet ports on BD players and the LG are for network upgrades only. To further confuse things a Pioneer employee told me that they are sending discs out for the Descent patch. He said in the future you would be able to use the network port for patches. I didn't press him on why they couldn't do it now.

Fox says Blu-ray titles will outsell HD DVD by 3.5:1 by the end of March.

Were they talking specifically about Fox titles in that prediction. ;)

http://biz.gamedaily.com/industry/feature/?id=14940

The big winner in the console space was the PS2. Sony's aging console is showing very resilient legs, as it posted 1.4 million units in sales for the month and stands at 37.1 million life-to-date. Following the PS2 was the Xbox 360 with 1.1 million units sold in December (4.5 million life-to-date). The two new systems, Wii and PS3, rounded out the charts with 604.2 K units and 490.7 K units, respectively. NPD's data shows that the Wii install base through December in the U.S. stands at 1.1 million while the PS3 total is just 687.3 K. Keep in mind that SCEA's 1 million shipped number was for all of North America, while NPD data refers to the U.S. only.

NPD console sales for December 2006 (listed highest to lowest selling)

* PlayStation 2: 1.4 million (37.1 million life-to-date)
* Xbox 360: 1.1 million (4.5 million life-to-date)
* Wii: 604.2k (1.1 million life-to-date)
* PS3: 490.7k (687.3k life-to-date)

To be clear, there is no BD2.0. There are two profiles, originally known as one and two, now known as BD-Video and BD-Live.

That said, I don't consider the fact that no players claiming BD-Live compliance were shown at CES to be significant. In a mature market (i.e. televisions) CES is often where any new product to be released in the coming year will be shown. In an emerging market product development is on a compressed timescale (hence first-quarter 2007 release of the LG and Samsung players which hadn't ever been previously discussed). Neither Sony, Pioneer, Philips, nor Panasonic formally discussed second-generation players, yet I have little doubt they all have them under development for release yet this year. Bottom line, I expect that any newly released Blu-ray player with an ethernet connection will ultimately be BD-Live compatible.

So are you saying you believe the G2 Samsung will be upgradeable to BD-Live?

Sony needs to cut the price on the PS3 ASAP if they want to bring the mainstream into the Blu-ray fold. Sales have plummeted and Wii is taking Japan and Europe by storm (not to mention popularity in the US as well).

If Sony can cut the price of the two units to $299 & $399 (matching the XBox 360 prices), then it will really give Blu-ray a solid chance of taking off. Even early adopters in gaming aren't biting at such high prices.

The critical part about mandatory features is whether content is decoded, not how it's transmitted. (clip)
Thats assuming its transmitted faithfully to the decoding. By the above standard of performance, decoding 1080p and transmitting 540p would be acceptable cos its being decoded and transmitted.

Nope, no way, no how (I am hd lover, hear me shout)

Am I the only one a tad surprised that three different HD DVD insiders have posted recently saying that they don't expect Enhanced Video decoding to ever be used on any HD DVD titles? It might very well might be true, but why even have such an optional feature if expectations are that no studio will ever use it?

Bill Hunt has posted a nice writeup on thedigitalbits (http://www.thedigitalbits.com/#mytwocents).

Main CES points:

* Announcements: most HD DVD announcements were hardware-related, whereas Blu-ray was about software.

* Cheap Chinese HD DVD players: beneficial in the short term, because it could encourage more people to buy HD DVD players, but damaging for major CE companies in the long term.

* Porn: not as decisive as it was for the VHS vs Betamax war.

* Software: home video format is only as good the films you can watch on it.

* Predictions: if the trends that seem to have been revealed at CES 2007 are true, and if they continue for the next 12 months, the war may end within a year.

"There's a LOT of great high-definition hardware and software coming in 2007, and it's going to be fun to check it all out."

I think we all can second that last part.

Thats assuming its transmitted faithfully to the decoding. By the above standard of performance, decoding 1080p and transmitting 540p would be acceptable cos its being decoded and transmitted.

Nope, no way, no how (I am hd lover, hear me shout)I understand what Ben is saying, but think it is a little bit like saying the critical part about a TV is that it turn on and show channels. While true, the quality is important to most of us here and the "the critical thing is" argument could be made to discount just about anything that is weak in one area. Like, ICT isn't a big deal because the critical thing is that you get to see the movie. I just realized that this might be a good example, since it might be appropriate to think of the XBOX360's implementation of lossless audio as kind of like ICT for audio. You start with something really good, but then you lose a lot of it and people tell you that it is still really good since it is better than DVDs. It is quite a bit different than just using digital vs using analog IMO.

In my view one side gets to play a semantics game here where they say that it is mandatory for HD DVD players to support TrueHD, while it isn't for Blu-ray players. However, as I understand it what is mandatory on Blu-ray is much like how DTS-HD Master Audio works on HD DVD. That is, with "Dolby Lossless" (as I believe it is being called there), if a person selects a track that says "TrueHD" or "Dolby Lossless" on a menu and the player is only built to the minimum specs, then they get the DD 5.1 track. With an HD DVD player built to the minimum, they would just get 2.0 TrueHD. For movies I think most of us would argue that 2.0 lossless is worse than 5.1 DD. Yet, if people don't consider the details and just blindly buy a story they are being sold that HD DVD has mandatory support for TrueHD (though technically true), then they are likely to believe that the audio that will be decoded will be better there than with something that doesn't have mandatory support for TrueHD (Blu-ray). Then there is the XBOX360 add-on where right now the TrueHD track gets reencoded to DD 5.1. But, they can claim that they support lossless from Dolby because they decode it (and then downscale it to lossy).

The main advantage of the way HD DVD did this from a usage standpoint is that studios could save about 640k and a menu entry by leaving a DD track off (although it would mean getting only 2.0 from the audio track if a player was built just to the mandatory specs). The marketing standpoint seems to be the main advantage though as they can claim that they have mandatory support for lossless while Blu-ray doesn't, ignoring the 2.0 issue and that the XBOX360 outputs basically the same thing (probably worse because of the way it reencodes on the fly) as Blu-ray players that don't decode TrueHD, but grab the DD track instead.

--Darin

The only $1K+ Blu-ray player with an ethernet connection is the Pioneer, and Pioneer has been very upfront that their player will not support online content. I honestly don't believe anyone who buys a $1K+ player and cares about online content isn't going to at least check to see if it has network support.

Would you define "very upfront", and provide any examples you think evidence this on Pioneer's behalf?

Bill Hunt has posted a nice writeup on thedigitalbits (http://www.thedigitalbits.com/#mytwocents).

Main CES points:

* Cheap Chinese HD DVD players: beneficial in the short term, because it could encourage more people to buy HD DVD players, but damaging for major CE companies in the long term.* "Beneficial in the short term" is also beneficial in the long term, if the players are of good quality and produce an outstanding HD image and sound. There is no data that says they cannot. In fact, they are OEMs for Sony, Panasonic, et. al. If they are good, they will sell tons of them, forcing studios to either abandon exclusivity or face the shareholders to explain why not.

* "Damaging for major CE companies in the long term". But not damaging for consumers. Bill appears to acknowledge that Japanese CE manufacturers want to see HD DVD dead so that they can prop up high prices. They have forced the HD DVD camp to this course of action in October 2005 by siding with BD. What did they expect to happen?

* Predictions: if the trends that seem to have been revealed at CES 2007 are true, and if they continue for the next 12 months, the war may end within a year.Bill seems to have gotten caught up in the hype. By the end of 2007, there should be about 20 - 25 million xbox 360s out there (depending on when they drop the price). Lite-on will begin producing the HD DVD add-on drive for MS in the spring. What happens if MS drops the price of the add-on to $150 or less? They could afford to make it whatever price they want, in order to achieve their goals.

To be clear, there is no BD2.0. There are two profiles, originally known as one and two, now known as BD-Video and BD-Live.

That said, I don't consider the fact that no players claiming BD-Live compliance were shown at CES to be significant. In a mature market (i.e. televisions) CES is often where any new product to be released in the coming year will be shown. In an emerging market product development is on a compressed timescale (hence first-quarter 2007 release of the LG and Samsung players which hadn't ever been previously discussed). Neither Sony, Pioneer, Philips, nor Panasonic formally discussed second-generation players, yet I have little doubt they all have them under development for release yet this year. Bottom line, I expect that any newly released Blu-ray player with an ethernet connection will ultimately be BD-Live compatible.

Thanks! I thought there were three profiles based on that 'compilation' post someone made: BD1.0 (Current Gen), BD1.1 (+PiP), and BD2.0 (+Network) ... with increased levels of mandatory local storage at each?

That said, with BD-Video and BD-Live ... where does PiP fit in? BD-Live would include PiP, but then there would be cases were some BD-Video players had PiP and some didn't, right? So it would be like: BD-Video, BD-Video+PiP, and BD-Live?

btw, I thought Sony showed some Prototypes of G2 players?

The only $1K+ Blu-ray player with an ethernet connection is the Pioneer, and Pioneer has been very upfront that their player will not support online content. I honestly don't believe anyone who buys a $1K+ player and cares about online content isn't going to at least check to see if it has network support.

But if the Demonstration Video that is playing on these players indicates that network support is part of Blu-Ray, don't you feel that is very confusing the the average consumer? I know I'd just assume it could do it if the Demo Materials said I could. Especially since there is no "*Requires BD-Live Compliant Player" disclaimer flashed on the screen?

Amir was referring to consumers being upset that they hadn't been educated on whether a given Blu-ray player would support a given feature. I believe the way the Xbox 360 HD DVD add-on handles audio presents a similar customer letdown.
Sorry, that's not good enough. Decoding 1080p VC1 but outputting only via an RF modulator to channel three is an unsatisfactory situation. A customer reads that TrueHD, lossless audio, is one of the mandatory features of HD DVD. So they happily buy an HD DVD add-on, yet are unable to enjoy lossless sound. Yes, the add-on is decoding the lossless sound. Yes, the sound they do hear may be of perfectly reasonable quality. Nonetheless, they aren't getting the lossless sound which they reasonably expected based on the format's promise of mandatory support for lossless sound. It seems that Amir thinks Blu-ray player manufacturers ought to advertise "does not support secondary video", or some such disclaimer. If so, Microsoft ought be advertising "not capable of lossless audio output".

Just to be clear, because I really don't understand ... to take advantage of DD+ or DTS+ or TrueHD, my receiver needs to support that format, correct? Usually I get on my receiver a display that says PCM 2.0 (2 Channel?) or Dolby Digital 5.1 when I switch around sources. I'm assuming if my receiver doesn't say TrueHD on it or DTS+ or whatever, then it just can't use the format and I'll get the next best level, right? Or is TrueHD just some fancy marketing for something else?

* "Beneficial in the short term" is also beneficial in the long term, if the players are of good quality and produce an outstanding HD image and sound. There is no data that says they cannot. In fact, they are OEMs for Sony, Panasonic, et. al. If they are good, they will sell tons of them, forcing studios to either abandon exclusivity or face the shareholders to explain why not.

* "Damaging for major CE companies in the long term". But not damaging for consumers. Bill appears to acknowledge that Japanese CE manufacturers want to see HD DVD dead so that they can prop up high prices. They have forced the HD DVD camp to this course of action in October 2005 by siding with BD. What did they expect to happen?

Bill seems to have gotten caught up in the hype. By the end of 2007, there should be about 20 - 25 million xbox 360s out there (depending on when they drop the price). Lite-on will begin producing the HD DVD add-on drive for MS in the spring. What happens if MS drops the price of the add-on to $150 or less? They could afford to make it whatever price they want, in order to achieve their goals.

I thought Microsoft was predicting 13-14 Million Xbox 360's this year? Was that a 'combined' forcast? As in, 3-4 Million this year? Or an 'additional' forcast? As in, 10 Million PLUS 13-14 Million? I'm guessing you're going with the later by your 20-25M estimates, but that would mean the Xbox sells 1 M per Month ... I dunno about that.

I thought Microsoft was predicting 13-14 Million Xbox 360's this year? Was that a 'combined' forcast? As in, 3-4 Million this year? Or an 'additional' forcast? As in, 10 Million PLUS 13-14 Million? I'm guessing you're going with the later by your 20-25M estimates, but that would mean the Xbox sells 1 M per Month ... I dunno about that.
The projection is 13-15M this fiscal year, i.e. through June 30, and Robbie Bach announced that they were .5M ahead of projections to hit that #.

Am I the only one a tad surprised that three different HD DVD insiders have posted recently saying that they don't expect Enhanced Video decoding to ever be used on any HD DVD titles? It might very well might be true, but why even have such an optional feature if expectations are that no studio will ever use it?

Because it was the pet idea of someone deeply involved, or required to be accepted to bring a company into the fold?

I'm sure most don't want FGT to be used.

Gary

* "Beneficial in the short term" is also beneficial in the long term... "Damaging for major CE companies in the long term". But not damaging for consumers.Sorry, but I can see Bill's viewpoint. :) To bring a technology to maturity requires companies to make a reasonable profit within a reasonable time on their investment. Otherwise, no reason to continue to innovate. Putting artificial price pressure on parts suppliers this early is not a healthy thing to do long term. Fewer suppliers will enter the market and there will be less money to invest in the format. A few companies have already decided not to take their SoC decoder being developed to market for this reason. The market has now lost their innovations and perhaps the ability to have even lower player prices in 1-2 years.

Granted, more players being sold could enable the studios and members of the IP pools to make more money faster. But perhaps at the expense of making even more money one or two years later.

But interestingly, the Annual Reports for the China companies say that they are no longer interested in low-margin business and are now focusing on higher-margins products. Looks like they learned their lesson on DVD.

What happens if MS drops the price of the add-on to $150 or less? They could afford to make it whatever price they want, in order to achieve their goals.

That's possible. In fact, what I'm seeing from a while now is MS throwing money at HD DVD left and right, on all levels. (Not that I'm complaining.)

In their own words, they're here "to make sure HD DVD doesn't go away."

But interestingly, the Annual Reports for the China companies say that they are no longer interested in low-margin business and are now focusing on higher-margins products. Looks like they learned their lesson on DVD.

Nobody like razor thin margin. But for many Chinese manufactures, all the IP and high margin key parts are controlled by the others. Also, very few CE company is willing to focus on R&D and long term benefit. Most of them is engaged in market hype and quick money. I don't blame them for this. It is sometimes an inevitable disadvantage when you enter the food chain too late and game rule is already set.

In their own words, they're here "to make sure HD DVD doesn't go away."

They only have this much clout and it is realy not up to them, is it? Maybe they should start to buy movie studios...

Nobody like razor thin margin. But for many Chinese manufactures, all the IP and high margin key parts are controlled by the others. Also, very few CE company is willing to focus on R&D and long term benefit. Most of them is engaged in market hype and quick money. I don't blame them for this. It is sometimes an inevitable disadvantage when you enter the food chain too late and game rule is already set.

Which makes me shake my head when people condem Sony for the design of the PS3. That product has over 1 billion $$ invested in the CELL development alone. Look around and try to find any other CE products that are more cutting edge than the PS3. I'm not aware of any, except the new iPhone from Apple and I don't know if you could classify it as a CE product.

b2b

Amir was referring to consumers being upset that they hadn't been educated on whether a given Blu-ray player would support a given feature. I believe the way the Xbox 360 HD DVD add-on handles audio presents a similar customer letdown.
Were's talking about the difference between feature sthat simply don't work (PIP, internet connectivity), and connectivity modes not being available that weren't available in the first place - the video and audio experience out of a Xbox 360 + HD DVD accessory is at least as good as the normal Xbox 360 experience which customers already have.

Plus, it's just a game accessory. There are higher end stand-alone players widely available that consumers who want HDMI can get (we're not offended if they do!). With BD, it's the high-end, premium-priced standalone players that are missing big chunks of advertised functionality in forthcoming titles. What's going to be the user experience? Someone picks "PIP" in the menu, and gets a "this feature is not supported by this player" message? Rather more intrusive I think!

If anything, I'm surprised that you keep bringing up this comparison - this is a major weak point in BD, since it will encourage videophiles to indefinitely delay purchasing anything.

Sorry, that's not good enough. Decoding 1080p VC1 but outputting only via an RF modulator to channel three is an unsatisfactory situation. A customer reads that TrueHD, lossless audio, is one of the mandatory features of HD DVD. So they happily buy an HD DVD add-on, yet are unable to enjoy lossless sound. Yes, the add-on is decoding the lossless sound. Yes, the sound they do hear may be of perfectly reasonable quality. Nonetheless, they aren't getting the lossless sound which they reasonably expected based on the format's promise of mandatory support for lossless sound. It seems that Amir thinks Blu-ray player manufacturers ought to advertise "does not support secondary video", or some such disclaimer. If so, Microsoft ought be advertising "not capable of lossless audio output".
Again, is the difference between features that work, and how they get transported. Warning a consumer that discs they can purchase will throw up error messages when they try to pick standard features seems like a good policy.

Plus someone can always hook up the HD DVD accessory to a PC, and get HDMI out. It's an Xbox 360 accessory! I haven't heard anyone complain yet that it doesn't magically cause the 360 to sprout some new connectors.

They only have this much clout and it is realy not up to them, is it? Maybe they should start to buy movie studios...

The Halo movie deal is already "kaput" ;)

b2b

Which makes me shake my head when people condem Sony for the design of the PS3. That product has over 1 billion $$ invested in the CELL development alone. Look around and try to find any other CE products that are more cutting edge than the PS3. I'm not aware of any, except the new iPhone from Apple and I don't know if you could classify it as a CE product. b2b
you never heard of the phrase throwing good money after bad?

Apple spend a fraction of that for iPod which has a sustainable 50% profit margin.

ps - the design choices from top down were terrible for a consumer product where sales begin to really flourish under $199.

Plus someone can always hook up the HD DVD accessory to a PC, and get HDMI out. It's an Xbox 360 accessory! I haven't heard anyone complain yet that it doesn't magically cause the 360 to sprout some new connectors.

Well, let me make it official then ... I am complaining that I can't get HDMI from an XBOX-360 ... if you dudes had announced that speculated AV variant, I would have been a buyer.

Thats assuming its transmitted faithfully to the decoding. By the above standard of performance, decoding 1080p and transmitting 540p would be acceptable cos its being decoded and transmitted.

Nope, no way, no how (I am hd lover, hear me shout)
Sure, someone with an analog-only display or player shouldn't purchase ICT-encoded titles, and should make that clear to publishers.

Of course, there aren't any of those shipping, or announced, or even rumored.

Sorry, but I can see Bill's viewpoint. :) To bring a technology to maturity requires companies to make a reasonable profit within a reasonable time on their investment. Otherwise, no reason to continue to innovate. Putting artificial price pressure on parts suppliers this early is not a healthy thing to do long term. Fewer suppliers will enter the market and there will be less money to invest in the format. A few companies have already decided not to take their SoC decoder being developed to market for this reason. The market has now lost their innovations and perhaps the ability to have even lower player prices in 1-2 years.
Who is putting pressure on parts suppliers by saying Chinese companies will build products and potentially sell them for less? They charge less because they can live with smaller margins themselves, and not charge for their brand. That does not translate to you all having to sell them parts at lower prices. Indeed, you can refuse to do so.

Granted, more players being sold could enable the studios and members of the IP pools to make more money faster. But perhaps at the expense of making even more money one or two years later.
The big thing it does is to expand the market to millions of devices rather than hundreds of thousands. That will allow companies such as yourself to also get benefit of higher volume manufacturing for your silicon. Really, I am very surprised to see a silicon company complain about higher volume players getting into the market, and instead preferring low volume, boutique business. Maybe the world of hardware has changed a lot since I left it. :)

But interestingly, the Annual Reports for the China companies say that they are no longer interested in low-margin business and are now focusing on higher-margins products. Looks like they learned their lesson on DVD.
Indeed, the types of companies who are working on HD DVD are in this class. Instead of losing money making players for Japanese companies or selling them for $30 in low cost retail outlets, they can sell players that sell for considerably higher price and good margins.

Sigma should be very happy about all of this and your reaction is super puzzling to me Keith. Surely you want to amortize your R&D costs over much larger volume than few thousand expensive BD players. No?

That's possible. In fact, what I'm seeing from a while now is MS throwing money at HD DVD left and right, on all levels. (Not that I'm complaining.)

In their own words, they're here "to make sure HD DVD doesn't go away."

Well, they lost $2 Billion a year or something on the Xbox to get in the 'door' ... why not the same for HD-DVD? Or, even more likely, Digital Downloads. Vista is going to support Xbox-Live Video Marketplace, no?

Were's talking about the difference between feature sthat simply don't work (PIP, internet connectivity), and connectivity modes not being available that weren't available in the first place - the video and audio experience out of a Xbox 360 + HD DVD accessory is at least as good as the normal Xbox 360 experience which customers already have.

Plus, it's just a game accessory. There are higher end stand-alone players widely available that consumers who want HDMI can get (we're not offended if they do!). With BD, it's the high-end, premium-priced standalone players that are missing big chunks of advertised functionality in forthcoming titles. What's going to be the user experience? Someone picks "PIP" in the menu, and gets a "this feature is not supported by this player" message? Rather more intrusive I think!

If anything, I'm surprised that you keep bringing up this comparison - this is a major weak point in BD, since it will encourage videophiles to indefinitely delay purchasing anything.


Again, is the difference between features that work, and how they get transported. Warning a consumer that discs they can purchase will throw up error messages when they try to pick standard features seems like a good policy.

Plus someone can always hook up the HD DVD accessory to a PC, and get HDMI out. It's an Xbox 360 accessory! I haven't heard anyone complain yet that it doesn't magically cause the 360 to sprout some new connectors.

Well Ben, I'm disappointed that it cannnot cause it to sprout new connectors. If the PS3 can give me 4D, why cant the Xbox-360 Addon just grow an HDMI port onto the console? I mean ... the Cell could do it ... :p

Well, let me make it official then ... I am complaining that I can't get HDMI from an XBOX-360 ... if you dudes had announced that speculated AV variant, I would have been a buyer.

Or at least a pigtail ... but I understand that's technically not possible due to analog output embedded in the console?

Sorry, but I can see Bill's viewpoint. :) To bring a technology to maturity requires companies to make a reasonable profit within a reasonable time on their investment. Otherwise, no reason to continue to innovate.What everyone else before me said, plus one more.

SONY started this whole thing! (BD supporters forget this all the time. :) ) PS3's inclusion of BD cut the legs off the BD player market. They are responsible for razor thin margin for the entire next gen HD market!

By selling a (more than) fully functional BD player (most say "the best" BD player) at a highly subsidized price, they have assured their BDA partners they will never make high margins in the BD-ROM market. I'm surprised you can't see this yet.

What is the ratio between PS3 sales and all other BD player sales? Is it 10:1 or 15:1? What happens when PS3 stops selling because of price? Have you seen the press? Analysts call PS3s lying on shelves in US "troubling". They expected the sellout to go to June. Sony must eventually cut the price.

Or what happens when MS announces a price cut? Of course then Sony must cut the price. Then where does the BD player market stand?

Well, let me make it official then ... I am complaining that I can't get HDMI from an XBOX-360 ... if you dudes had announced that speculated AV variant, I would have been a buyer.
If you want to play HD DVD movies and want HDMI, buy a Toshiba player, with my blessing :).

The Xbox 360 HD DVD accessory is an accessory to the Xbox 360, which is a game machine. It's a great solution for those who want to game and watch HD DVD, but isn't, and doesn't claim to be, a full-on videophile/audiophile solution.

Anyway, by complaint I meant someone who was confused by the situation. I'd like a HDMI Xbox 360 as much as the next guy, but I like haveing 10+ million units on the market more. And it's not like HDMI would make the games look any better compared to component analog.

What everyone else before me said, plus one more.

SONY started this whole thing! (BD supporters forget this all the time. :) ) PS3's inclusion of BD cut the legs off the BD player market. They are responsible for razor thin margin for the entire next gen HD market!

By selling a (more than) fully functional BD player (most say "the best BD player) at a highly subsidized price, they have assured their BDA partners they will never make high margins in the BD-ROM market. I'm surprised you can't see this yet.

What is the ratio between PS3 sales and all other BD player sales? Is it 10:1 or 15:1? What happens when PS3 stops selling because of price? Have you seen the press? Analysts call PS3s lying on shelves in US "troubling". They expected the sellout to go to June. Sony must eventually cut the price.

Or what happens when MS announces a price cut? Of course then Sony must cut the price. Then where does the BD player market stand?

I don't think BD manufacturers really had a goal of strong growth in the Blu-ray player market early on. Other than having players with big margins for early adopters of course.

Panasonic and Pioneer don't seem to mind pushing the PS3 as a player (or even getting upstaged). The real money lies a few years down the road. They could sell players in the $100-$200 range for a decent profit once the parts got cheap.

I don't think BD manufacturers really had a goal of strong growth in the Blu-ray player market early on. Other than having players with big margins for early adopters of course.

Panasonic and Pioneer don't seem to mind pushing the PS3 as a player (or even getting upstaged). The real money lies a few years down the road. They could sell players in the $100-$200 range for a decent profit once the parts got cheap.

That explains the BD CE rationale but it doesn't change the fact that the low subsidized player prices began with guarantee of BD in every PS3.

Everyone knows that a video game console can only sell so high and as it turns out it's clear Sony pushed it to consumer limit as it is. Sony guaranteed in advance low priced players from day 1 for which they would foot the bill so naturally the industry fell in behind that. Why not let Sony create the market 1st if they are willing to take on the cost to do so?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/zd/20070108/tc_zd/198153


Well...From reading this article I understand the IPTV for the 360 better. I am a little dissapointed as it appears only a select group will be able to tkae advantage of the service. The interesting part about this article is where the MS rep mentions IPTV providers issuing 360's as a set top box. Even more interesting it mentions that those 360's could have different features( Larger HD and Possibly HDMI) then retail versions. I now think this is where these leaked pictures of the HDMI 360 come from, test units perhaps for these IPTV providers to roll out. If this kind of stuff comes to light I will be very dissapointed with the path MS is taking with this. I am an owner of 4 360's (3 Just Bought) and the HD DVD drive and this would be the kind of thing to make me walk away on principal. I respect Amirm and Ben alot for coming on these Boards and sharing there insight and valuable time. But I don't agree with Ben's take on HDMI. I bought the 3 360's recently to await a Dual Cable Card Media Center PC at the end of the month and use the 360's for a whole house TV/ Media center distribution. Now I find out that The 360 can have Streamed HD content Downrezzed to 540P because of CIT(Which is like ICT on Movies) and the analog only connection. I think that the 360 was designed as a game machine 1st, but just as much a media center also. Bill Gates has said the same thing himself. So if lack of Digital Connection could interfere with Movies and Now HD Cable streaming......Then I say it is an issue. And if someone who lives in an area that has an IPTV provider will be capable of getting a 360 with better hardware and connnectivity, then I also that isn't going to sit well with several 360 owners. MS should just issue a statement about the HDMI on current 360's as that would end alot of speculation for current owners. And I think it could be a bad decision to roll out new services and hardware to a select group who can get IPTV service!

What everyone else before me said, plus one more.

SONY started this whole thing! (BD supporters forget this all the time. :) ) PS3's inclusion of BD cut the legs off the BD player market. They are responsible for razor thin margin for the entire next gen HD market!

By selling a (more than) fully functional BD player (most say "the best" BD player) at a highly subsidized price, they have assured their BDA partners they will never make high margins in the BD-ROM market. I'm surprised you can't see this yet.

What is the ratio between PS3 sales and all other BD player sales? Is it 10:1 or 15:1? What happens when PS3 stops selling because of price? Have you seen the press? Analysts call PS3s lying on shelves in US "troubling". They expected the sellout to go to June. Sony must eventually cut the price.

Or what happens when MS announces a price cut? Of course then Sony must cut the price. Then where does the BD player market stand?

I doubt that any BD player mfg ever had any illusions of $1000 dollar players being the norm for any more than little over a year. What the PS3 does is to jumpstart the market so titles wll be produced (and bought) and establishes a floor of $499 for the BD player mfgs to work with. Right now the floor for HD-DVD is $199 with the xbox addon and even the new Toshiba players are at $499. There is a lot of time for new SoC players to be introduced between now and the next holiday season and I expect more than one BD player to have MSRP of $499 or less.

PS3 will "do what it will do" based on when there is a "killer" game title that really shows the power of the HW. My guess is that will be well before the '07 holliday season too. :)

b2b

And I think it could be a bad decision to roll out new services and hardware to a select group who can get IPTV service!

I doubt a new 360 SKU will be "rolled out" only to select households ... my guess is if and when a new SKU comes, it will be available to everyone.

Ofcourse IPTV depends on bandwidth and service availability from your ISP.

I don't think BD manufacturers really had a goal of strong growth in the Blu-ray player market early on. Other than having players with big margins for early adopters of course.

Panasonic and Pioneer don't seem to mind pushing the PS3 as a player (or even getting upstaged). The real money lies a few years down the road. They could sell players in the $100-$200 range for a decent profit once the parts got cheap.Indeed. Remember Andy Parsons (Pioneer) bragging early in 2006 in the Digital Bits (http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articles/ces2006/parsonsinterview.html):

The PS3 is launching right at the forefront of Blu-ray Disc. If Sony ships the kind of numbers we expect them to this year, that will provide a very rapid growth of players out there hungry for titles. We've been hearing between 4 and 7 million units could ship. And if you look at PlayStation Portable, with UMD discs, everyone is shocked at how many titles have shipped for that platform. And they're selling as well or better than the game software. So I think Sony has proven that they can drive a new video format like this with their gaming platforms.
In hindsight, what a joke. But the fact that Pioneer and the rest of the BDA gang was willing to cede that much of the market to their competitor with the PS3 was (and is) amazing to me. It's like the BDA is only producing stand alone players as a "show of force" to give the appearance that HD DVD has no chance in the marketplace. They don't care about pushing players in volume until HD DVD dies.

I doubt a new 360 SKU will be "rolled out" only to select households ... my guess is if and when a new SKU comes, it will be available to everyone.

Ofcourse IPTV depends on bandwidth and service availability from your ISP.

Read the Article....That is what the MS rep says....

Indeed. Remember Andy Parsons (Pioneer) bragging early in 2006 in the Digital Bits (http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articles/ces2006/parsonsinterview.html):


In hindsight, what a joke. But the fact that Pioneer and the rest of the BDA gang was willing to cede that much of the market to their competitor with the PS3 was (and is) amazing to me. It's like the BDA is only producing stand alone players as a "show of force" to give the appearance that HD DVD has no chance in the marketplace. They don't care about pushing players in volume until HD DVD dies.

Maybe they liked the idea of Sony "making a market" for BD on Sony's dime seemed better than them "making a market" on their dime... like Toshiba and MS is doing for HD-DVD... ;)

b2b

Customers tend to skip a product generation. Nintendo captured all the limelight with their new console look what happened to them before.

The large installed PS2 base has a lot of users that have invested in add ons and games already. Apart from the hardcore gamers and early BR adopters many consumers might skip this PS generation.

That's possible. In fact, what I'm seeing from a while now is MS throwing money at HD DVD left and right, on all levels. (Not that I'm complaining.)

Whatever money MS is spending on HD DVD I think is miniscule in comparison to Toshiba - and ofcourse what Sony spends on BluRay.

Infact with $300 subsidy on PS3, I wonder how they can ever make up - even if they get $10 per game, that would require an astounded attach rate of 30 games.

Read the Article....That is what the MS rep says....

I did read it.

But your post contains your interpretation - not any direct quotes that support your interpretation.

You wouldn't want to watch TV on an X360 before they do the die shrink and reduce the fan noise and power consumption.

Anyways, PS3 is why Blu-Ray has so much content support. The makers of standalones will have to differentiate with better features, like integrating a DVR, recordability, better playback performance, better remotes, etc.

Or they could have done HD-DVD players only to get undercut by Toshiba and the Chinese but still have no content support. That's a recipe for success. :rolleyes:

Indeed. Remember Andy Parsons (Pioneer) bragging early in 2006 in the Digital Bits (http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articles/ces2006/parsonsinterview.html):


In hindsight, what a joke. But the fact that Pioneer and the rest of the BDA gang was willing to cede that much of the market to their competitor with the PS3 was (and is) amazing to me. It's like the BDA is only producing stand alone players as a "show of force" to give the appearance that HD DVD has no chance in the marketplace. They don't care about pushing players in volume until HD DVD dies.

It make sense when you consider that Sony is accelerating the curve for an hd player market much faster than it could be conceived of any other way. Everyone else is mostly riding that wave till it becomes profitable. MS may be the only other company in the world who could have done such a thing, with the 360 but then of course they don't have Sony's natural vested interest in a format.

Sony is essentially buying a format, paying the cost to be the boss.

But interestingly, the Annual Reports for the China companies say that they are no longer interested in low-margin business and are now focusing on higher-margins products. Looks like they learned their lesson on DVD.

Yep. $39 DVD player is useful only to (some) consumers, retailers and studios.

However you should look closer home - at some retailers with huge clout - to see where some of the pressure to reduce prices is coming from.

Or they could have done HD-DVD players only to get undercut by Toshiba and the Chinese ...

Yep. Looks like Sony & Toshiba have marginalized the other CE manufacturers in this format war. The only way they can get back into the game is to release fairly priced full featured Universal players ....

Pioneer and the rest of the BDA didn't cede anything.

They weren't going to move hundreds of thousands of 1G units.

Did the first DVD players move those kinds of volumes?

The early adopter pricing would have limited their market anyways.

At least with PS3 volumes, the studios are attracted to support the format. Remember though, Toshiba came close to compromising last April/May. They wouldn't be in this situation now, looking at half the studio support of the competing format, having the CE industry lined up against it.

Maybe MS is using lube though. :D

Indeed, the types of companies who are working on HD DVD are in this class. Instead of losing money making players for Japanese companies or selling them for $30 in low cost retail outlets, they can sell players that sell for considerably higher price and good margins.Given that, should people be expecting a big price drop from having Chinese companies make players they sell with their own brand names vs Toshiba having players built in China that get sold under the Toshiba brand name? And if so, about how much this year from that effect? It seems that there are some people here assuming that just having Chinese companies sell players will bring prices way down, but my understanding is that there are already HD-A2s being built in China for Toshiba.

--Darin

As a note ... Rented the LG DVD title "Crank" and the PQ for a DVD was one (if not the best) I have seen in years. I'm sure the HD release will be equally stunning on Blu-Ray. :) The movie (as something "entertaining") wasn't anything to waste bulb hours on.. the FF button is your friend (sad to say). ;)

Upside is that if Universal starts doing all of there new release titles with the same PQ as "Crank" then upscaling a SD DVD would provide a reasonable substitute until they go neutral... ;)

b2b

Whatever money MS is spending on HD DVD I think is miniscule in comparison to Toshiba - and ofcourse what Sony spends on BluRay.

Infact with $300 subsidy on PS3, I wonder how they can ever make up - even if they get $10 per game, that would require an astounded attach rate of 30 games.

the $300 a unit figure is probably very inaccurate. yeah, we've all seen the report from those analysts, but people in the know have discussed this at places like beyond3d forums, and most are pretty sure its considerably cheaper to manufacture ps3's than what those analysts came up with.

personally im thinking sony is close to breaking even on the 60gb and probably losing 30-40 bucks on the 20 gb unit.

Given that, should people be expecting a big price drop from having Chinese companies make players they sell with their own brand names vs Toshiba having players built in China that get sold under the Toshiba brand name?Not the same, Toshiba is not yet using the WinCE/Broadcom reference design offered to the Chinese manufacturers. History has already shown us what the Chinese can do in making low cost DVD players. But your are right in that it might take a while to go from $349 to $299 to $199 ;)

Also I have no complaints about the build quality of my HD-XA2 built in China. It is just a matter of actual design, specs and QC to make a high quality product. There are many examples of high quality items being built in China.

Yep. Looks like Sony & Toshiba have marginalized the other CE manufacturers in this format war. The only way they can get back into the game is to release fairly priced full featured Universal players ....Which is what LG realizes they have to do - add some value. They see no value in a "me too" product.

Everyone else is mostly riding that wave till it becomes profitable.But when will that be if Sony is forced to continually lower the price of the PS3 to counter MS lower prices and still keep game developers interested in the PS3? If MS drops their price $50, Sony must as well (eventually) otherwise risk being priced out of market.

PS3 will "do what it will do" based on when there is a "killer" game title that really shows the power of the HW. My guess is that will be well before the '07 holliday season too. Killer game on PS3? One that can't be done on 360? One that will make PS3s fly off shelves? Well before '07 holiday season? I'd be interested in which one you think that is...

Not the same, Toshiba is not yet using the WinCE/Broadcom reference design offered to the Chinese manufacturers.The reference design should help, but I specifically asked about the factor of having Chinese companies making these for themselves vs making them for others since that is one of the things that seems to be assumed. Toshiba could use the reference design for their own player built in China also. And Toshiba has a stake in the game, so I bet they could live with a lower profit margin than some other companies for a while. Not that they have to, but if it were the difference between losing the war or selling players at no profit for a year, Toshiba might take the second route. I'm not sure that the Chinese companies feel the same way.
History has already shown us what the Chinese can do in making low cost DVD players.History has shown that some Chinese companies cheat and don't pay the fees they are obligated to pay in order to beat others. At least an attempt is being made this time to counter that with keys.

--Darin

Killer game on PS3? One that can't be done on 360? One that will make PS3s fly off shelves? Well before '07 holiday season? I'd be interested in which one you think that is...I doubt that this will be as killer as hoped, but at one point I think "Motorstorm" was thought to be a ways in this direction. I will be interested to see how it goes over in Europe as I think it might be their top launch title.

--Darin

Boy, it's really good news for BD that not all content is important to winning a format war. For example porn won't be influential, right? I think that's what the company backing Betamax thought as well.

CES 2007: HD DVD versus Blu-ray - The porn industry says HD DVD

http://www.tgdaily.com/2007/01/11/ces2007_hddvd_blu_ray/

One of the key questions at this year's CES actually is "Which high-def format will win the current format war - Blu-ray or HD DVD?" Surprisingly, it seems that there is no such question in the minds of the adult industry luminaries.

Putting myself through the arduous trek through the floor of the adult expo I did a quick straw poll on, the virtues of HD DVD versus Blu-ray, and the answer from a dozen companies, big and small, including Pink Visual and Bangbros editor-in-chief, is going into a single direction: HD DVD is the preferred format. Period.

One of the big problems they have with Blu-ray is its expense, followed by its market share. "Blu-ray has superior quality, yes," said a spokesperson for porn studio Bangbros, "but HD DVD is easier to produce, cheaper to produce and there are more HD DVD players in homes than there are Blu-ray players, for example in the Xbox 360."

Because a)BD-J is a more complex platform than HDi, and so until some higher-level authoring tools mature, developing for it is a more labor-intensive process, b)Microsoft apparently devoted significant resources to working with both studios in the implementation of those features, and c)HD DVD had a several month headstart.


Which was my initial point, that interactivity on HD DVD is more mature (the polite way of saying currently available) than it is on BD, with the combination of hardware and software. This is why I was (am) somewhat puzzled that the LG hybrid would not have HD DVD's interactivity in its first released player, but would have BD's.

As long as LG is "up front" (boy are those two words loaded around these parts) about what the player can and can't do I don't see a problem. Both formats as stand alone players have some issues to work with, let alone being mature enough to combine into one piece of hardware.

the $300 a unit figure is probably very inaccurate. yeah, we've all seen the report from those analysts, but people in the know have discussed this at places like beyond3d forums, and most are pretty sure its considerably cheaper to manufacture ps3's than what those analysts came up with.

Sure. Sony insiders from Japan are writing in beyond3d :p

personally im thinking sony is close to breaking even on the 60gb and probably losing 30-40 bucks on the 20 gb unit.

Then I personally think at $99, MS can make a nice profit on HD DVD add-on ;)

Killer game on PS3? One that can't be done on 360? One that will make PS3s fly off shelves? Well before '07 holiday season? I'd be interested in which one you think that is...

I have no idea about what the game might be, I'm not a "gamer", but simple logic would follow that unless you can put a "stunning" HW design to use with a "stunning" SW application, then what is the point of going to the trouble of building the HW in the first place. I'm of the opinion that Sony has enough brain power to realize that simple fact before spending billions of dollars just to at some point go "oops !" :)

b2b

History has shown that some Chinese companies cheat and don't pay the fees they are obligated to pay in order to beat others.

History has shown that they were egged on (pressured to do so ?) by large American retailers ...

Killer game on PS3? One that can't be done on 360? One that will make PS3s fly off shelves? Well before '07 holiday season? I'd be interested in which one you think that is...

Esp. given some big games on 360 will be hitting shelfs this year .... like Halo3 :D

But when will that be if Sony is forced to continually lower the price of the PS3 to counter MS lower prices and still keep game developers interested in the PS3? If MS drops their price $50, Sony must as well (eventually) otherwise risk being priced out of market.

When indeed. That's the risk part of Sony's flood the player market strategy.

IMO Sony's BD strat becoming profitable is probably based quite a bit on being able to run hd-dvd out of town pretty quickly rather than on BD fighting against sd-dvd, hd-dvd and other video game consoles over a protracted periods of time.

BD needs to get volume price drops pretty fast or continue subsidizing and carrying higher costs for quite some time. Remember PS3 has boosted BD considerable but much higher PS3 numbers were projected and in theory could have had more a 'blow hd out of the water' effect. Didn't quite happen to that degree...

Motorstorm probably won't be that big a seller in the US. That kind of rally-racing isn't big here.

But in terms of technical merit, it deserves to sell. May sell well in EU and has sold well in Japan.

Heavenly Sword is the other possibility in the spring. Again, another technical tour de force but a new IP so you don't know where it might go. Then again, I think Gears of War sold on graphics and word of mouth so who knows.

Same thing happened with God of War, which was a huge hit, technically, critically and commercially, even though it was a brand new game. Heavenly Sword looks to have similar kind of gameplay and of course, over the top graphics.

I have no idea about what the game might be, I'm not a "gamer", but simple logic would follow that unless you can put a "stunning" HW design to use with a "stunning" SW application, then what is the point of going to the trouble of building the HW in the first place. I'm of the opinion that Sony has enough brain power to realize that simple fact before spending billions of dollars just to at some point go "oops !" :)

b2b

PS3 will put out some very good games no doubt. The problem they face though is that with PS2 they had the superior gaming library overall. More exclusives which included several of the killer apps. That is not shaping up to the be the case this time.

Many of the huge games that were PS2 exclusive (GTA for instance) are already slated to go on both PS3 and 360 this time, so the advantage is not there. If that trend continues then what will differentiate the 3 systems? It will be mostly Brand Name vs. Lower Price. Guess we'll see just how strong that Sony/Playstation brand is.

That's the other side of the blu-ray risk to the PS3. Not only does it increase the price of the PS3 but it dilutes the PS3 attractiveness to game developers. It makes less and less sense to be exclusive on the platform that playing catchup in numbers and at a higher price too. You also add more people to the PS3 user base that while they buy blu-ray movies, may not buy many games, which is a sword that cuts 2 ways.

Motorstorm probably won't be that big a seller in the US. That kind of rally-racing isn't big here.

But in terms of technical merit, it deserves to sell. May sell well in EU and has sold well in Japan.

Heavenly Sword is the other possibility in the spring. Again, another technical tour de force but a new IP so you don't know where it might go. Then again, I think Gears of War sold on graphics and word of mouth so who knows.

Same thing happened with God of War, which was a huge hit, technically, critically and commercially, even though it was a brand new game. Heavenly Sword looks to have similar kind of gameplay and of course, over the top graphics.
I'm thinking a "Flight of the Osiris" Animatrix type game (as in PQ). They already have mocap, so now all they need is the game plot.. :)

b2b

PS3 will put out some very good games no doubt. The problem they face though is that with PS2 they had the superior gaming library overall. More exclusives which included several of the killer apps. That is not shaping up to the be the case this time.


PS3 still has the PS2 library available.

It shouldn't be forgotten that most of 2006 was a slim year for the 360. I unfortunately purchased vapid titles such as Gun and Full Auto x 1. We did have good games hit in Fall/Winter (most notably Gears of War & the BK games, which are hilarious BTW :D ), but outside of Oblivion & Lego Star Wars II (neither exclusives), the rest of the year it was pretty lackluster and many Xbox partisans seem to easily forget that.

The PS3's analog may not be until winter 2007, but I've been having a blast so far with the free demos of GT:HD and Motorstorm enough that the latter is as sure a buy as Resistance was. Looking at IGN's list of upcoming releases through March/April it doesn't appear nearly as slim as my selections were the prevoius year with the 360.

Regarding the HD war, the 360 needs to get that DD+ and/or DTS fix out there ASAP because it really lags the PS3 on the AQ side, while it holds up quite well on the PQ side. Fortunately, I've always been more of a videophile than an audiophile, though, so I'm not that unhappy yet. As I've always said, though, I will happily jump to a new 65nm SKU 360 with HDMI (quieter and with better audio options available) and hopefully an integrated HD-DVD drive or I'm gonna have to see about modding. :)

Killer game on PS3? One that can't be done on 360? One that will make PS3s fly off shelves? Well before '07 holiday season? I'd be interested in which one you think that is...

Metal Gear Solid 4, Final Fantasy 13, Killzone 2, Lair, Gran Tourismo 5, Motorstorm, Heavenly Sword, just to name a few.

OK, what can I say, I am a point-counterpoint kind of guy...

Who is putting pressure on parts suppliers by saying Chinese companies will build products and potentially sell them for less? They charge less because they can live with smaller margins themselves, and not charge for their brand.Sadly, price pressure is an automatic given these days and many here are expecting this to be the magic silver bullet to dirt cheap players really fast. They are expecting the duplication of what happen to DVD, only in a few months instead of a few years.

That does not translate to you all having to sell them parts at lower prices. Indeed, you can refuse to do so.Well, it's not easy to walk away from business if you want to get your solution entrenched to make it difficult for companies to switch suppliers. Yes, it is the responsibility of the parts supplier to ensure they are able to offer their products with the needed features/price/time. If they can't, well tough buku.

Really, I am very surprised to see a silicon company complain about higher volume players getting into the market, and instead preferring low volume, boutique business.Hey, we'd love to see hundreds of millions sold, preferably with our chip inside :D . Just not at 10% gross margin next year. :) The goal of Sigma, Broadcom and others is to help make high volume happen as easily and quickly as possible.

Indeed, the types of companies who are working on HD DVD are in this class. Instead of losing money making players for Japanese companies or selling them for $30 in low cost retail outlets, they can sell players that sell for considerably higher price and good margins.OK, I'm happy to here that. :)

Well, it's not easy to walk away from business ....

The same thing I've heard from manufacturers selling those $39 DVD players ...

The same thing I've heard from manufacturers selling those $39 DVD players ...

Well Nat, I don't think you have ever heard anything from any HW mfg unless you read it here on AVS... :)

b2b

Hey, we'd love to see hundreds of millions sold, preferably with our chip inside :D . Just not at 10% gross margin next year. :) The goal of Sigma, Broadcom and others is to help make high volume happen as easily and quickly as possible.

Don't you know hardware vendors are suppose to take whatever scraps they can and leave the big margins to MS?:p

Just how this....
“Meridian is a company renowned for state-of-the-art digital audio and video technology, and we are delighted to be working with Microsoft on the development of high-end players. Meridian has for some time been deeply involved in some of the core audio technology in HD DVD and at CES 2007 we are pleased to announce that we have now joined the HD DVD Promotional Group.

“Consistent with Meridian's product development approach, where standards of performance, particularly for audio and video are exceptionally high, product development takes some time, and for that reason we cannot announce any product-specific details at this time."

Translates into this quote is a almost comical.. :)
Quote: Originally Posted by Zvi7799
Cheap players are of course welcome. Especially if they have quality too As for the Meridian, didn't they announce that they have no plans for making HD DVD player?
Quote: amirm
That was a mistake. The person was not notified about their plans. They clarified this nicely yesterday, saying they are 100% behind HD DVD now and plan to build reference quality players: http://media.meridian-audio.com/pre...vd-ces07.pdf

Shameless propaganda... ;)

b2b

the $300 a unit figure is probably very inaccurate. yeah, we've all seen the report from those analysts, but people in the know have discussed this at places like beyond3d forums, and most are pretty sure its considerably cheaper to manufacture ps3's than what those analysts came up with.

personally im thinking sony is close to breaking even on the 60gb and probably losing 30-40 bucks on the 20 gb unit.

Wow ... if we figure that even a high end BR player like the Pioneer has 50% margin, their cost is right around $500 right? Let's assume $400, just for kicks. Now, add to that the cost of The Cell, the RSX, a 60GB Hard Drive, more RAM, WiFi, and a Controller ... are you saying all of that can be purchased for $150-200?

Esp. given some big games on 360 will be hitting shelfs this year .... like Halo3 :D

All they'd have to do is release Halo-3 on HD-DVD only ... that'd drive your 3 Million HD-DVD players right there ... in a few months ... :p

Yes, I know ... not going to happen ... just saying ... ;)

Am I the only one a tad surprised that three different HD DVD insiders have posted recently saying that they don't expect Enhanced Video decoding to ever be used on any HD DVD titles? It might very well might be true, but why even have such an optional feature if expectations are that no studio will ever use it?I asked that same question when I first read the spec. The answer is normally "politics". Microsoft fought very hard to make things that were originally optional mandatory (in both specs) because it's well known that something that is optional in a spec might as well have been left out. With an optional component, even if a player has the ability to do it, they often won't, since it adds development and testing time that they could use for required stuff.

Metal Gear Solid 4, Final Fantasy 13, Killzone 2, Lair, Gran Tourismo 5, Motorstorm, Heavenly Sword, just to name a few.


You're dreaming if you think you'll see half those games by christmas. This generation is going to be a lot more balanced than the last one.

You're dreaming if you think you'll see half those games by christmas. This generation is going to be a lot more balanced than the last one.

I personally can't wait to get my (2) Free Cars with GT HD so that I can spend another $100 on downloading extra cars that are actually useful. :p

Metal Gear Solid 4, Final Fantasy 13, Killzone 2, Lair, Gran Tourismo 5, Motorstorm, Heavenly Sword, just to name a few.

You think all these will be better than any other XBox 360 game ? Sure :p

Talking about the Xbox 360, new discussion topic:

The Xbox 360 sold 92,000 HD DVD add-ons during 2006.

Opinions?

Also from the same article Grubert linked ...

The impact that game consoles will have on the video format wars is yet to be seen, however. Time Warner CEO Richard Parsons recently said, “Do I think that the game console platform is really going to drive the conversion? I don't think so. People get those things to play games, not watch movies."

And the general console numbers are

The December numbers are

Xbox 360 - 1,100K
Nintendo Wii - 604K
PlayStation 3 - 490K

The November numbers were

Xbox 360 - 511K
Nintendo Wii - 476K
PlayStation 3 - 197K

So, holiday season '06 makes that

Xbox 360 - 1,611K
Nintendo Wii - 1,080K
PlayStation 3 - 687K

And just a node about the NPD numbers

NPD receives data representing about two-thirds of U.S. retail sales and makes projections for the remainder of the market based on a sampling of consumers.

Talking about the Xbox 360, new discussion topic:

The Xbox 360 sold 92,000 HD DVD add-ons during 2006.

Opinions?

Seems right to me. That means, Tosh sold around 80-100K standalone players. That would jive with the 175K plus players that they reported at CES...

In general I've seen Tosh's own reps come in at the lower end of estimates (say compared to WSJ numbers), while Sony has been saying millions, when it now looks like it was hundreds of thousands...

Talking about the Xbox 360, new discussion topic:

The Xbox 360 sold 92,000 HD DVD add-ons during 2006.

Opinions?Any idea about whether this is worldwide and if so, what kind of percentage was in North America?

--Darin

Talking about the Xbox 360, new discussion topic:

The Xbox 360 sold 92,000 HD DVD add-ons during 2006.

Opinions?
That is from mid-November? Nice! Keep those HD-DVDs a-coming!

Any idea about whether this is worldwide and if so, what kind of percentage was in North America?

--Darin

Per nataraj's additional info, exclusively US and A.

edit: but worldwide sales won't be much higher. The add-on has been absolutely impossible to find locally in the three European countries where it has been released (UK, France and Germany).

Just how this....

Translates into this quote is a almost comical.. :)


Shameless propaganda... ;)

b2b

wrong portion highlighted.

What Meridian said:

and we are delighted to be working with Microsoft on the development of high-end players



and what Amir says:


They clarified this nicely yesterday, saying they are 100% behind HD DVD now and plan to build reference quality players

nothing shameless about it. Seems kosher to me :)

Yeah I read a bit where they related the 92k versus 4.5 million X360s shipped to date (in its life).

So you get 2% attach rate.

Yeah I read a bit where they related the 92k versus 4.5 million X360s shipped to date (in its life).

So you get 2% attach rate.


yup. Not bad for 6 weeks!

Seems right to me. That means, Tosh sold around 80-100K standalone players. That would jive with the 175K plus players that they reported at CES...Robert claimed in I believe September or October that Toshiba had sold 70k first gen players and recently said that they sold 60k second gen players. Unless they sold a lot of them outside of North America, those numbers don't jive with the 175k+ to me.

Anybody know when the HD-E1 shipped in Europe?

edit:
edit: but worldwide sales won't be much higher. The add-on has been absolutely impossible to find locally in the three European countries where it has been released (UK, France and Germany).Does that mean they didn't get many or just that they sold out quickly?

--Darin

Talking about the Xbox 360, new discussion topic:

The Xbox 360 sold 92,000 HD DVD add-ons during 2006.

Opinions?On what? Was that worldwide, NA, or just in the Redmond area? Our company store got 600 in at one stage, and they were gone in 28 minutes, so I know the number is bigger than 600. :D
If you're talking North America, I have no idea how accurate that number is, looks believable, I suppose.

wrong portion highlighted.

What Meridian said:

and we are delighted to be working with Microsoft on the development of high-end players



and what Amir says:


They clarified this nicely yesterday, saying they are 100% behind HD DVD now and plan to build reference quality players

nothing shameless about it. Seems kosher to me :)

just the usual attempts at character assassination...amir must really be affecting the outcome of this war single-handedly to attract so much "attention" ;)

Anybody know when the HD-E1 shipped in Europe?

December 18 in Britain, a week later in the continent.

Does that mean they didn't get many or just that they sold out quickly?


They got very few and took forever to restock. Just look at the stock availability thread on avforums: http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=441823

Even amazon.co.uk shows "Usually dispatched within 1 to 2 weeks."

Going back to America:

175000 - 92000 = 83000

It's a fact - the A20 will have 1080p60 and 1080p24, and advanced audio decoding.Seems like you like stating this as a fact, but won't say where that came from. Thought people might want to know that Robert now says that he doesn't expect the A20 to support 1080p24. If you got the original information from Robert's A20 thread, why hide that?

Here is the new one:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9445964#post9445964

I do not expect 1080p 24 Hz on the A20.--Darin

I personally can't wait to get my (2) Free Cars with GT HD so that I can spend another $100 on downloading extra cars that are actually useful. :p

I'm primarily interested in certain Honda and Nissan and Ferrari models and wouldn't mind missing a couple hundred other makes/models out there at all, especially if I had to pay for them. Don't pretend that 360 owners will be exempt from this business model themselves as they already have some content only available through Xbox Live (and I am considering the Oblivion expansion if/when comes through XBL).

Yes, in a perfect world, we'd get EVERY expansion for free, but if you've been into computer gaming at all for the last few years you've become used to the paradigm where a good & fun game comes out and better content is offered in expansions that are 25-40% of the original MSRP of the game. Often there are 2 or 3 such expansions before all development ceases and the sequel game is released and the whole cycle starts again...

he doesn't expect the A20 to support 1080p24.

I believe for HD DVD to support 24p, IVTC circuit is a must. XA2 has HQV thus a no brainer. I doubt the A20 will have a discrete video processor besides the decoder. If the A20 decoder couldn't do IVTC, then 24p is out of the picture.

What is the A20 offering extra? Just 1080p/60?

Gary

I believe for HD DVD to support 24p, IVTC circuit is a must.

Wasn't it said repeatedly a while ago that all was needed was ignoring the metadata and extracting the 1080p24 straight from the disc?

I don't want the 1080p24-1080i60-1080p24 double conversion.

Wasn't it said repeatedly a while ago that all was needed was ignoring the metadata and extracting the 1080p24 straight from the disc?

I don't want the 1080p24-1080i60-1080p24 double conversion.

That's complicated for HD DVD, because the PiP and possible overlays from HDi, are expecting 1080i.

What happens if someone pops up a menu, over the feature, for example?

You'd have to have some way of changing modes depending what is active. Not impossible, but it complicates the entire data flow considerably.

BD requires by spec that the secondary video match the primary's frame rate. So, all the PiP must be 24p for film, and 30p/60i for video.

Gary

I believe for HD DVD to support 24p, IVTC circuit is a must. XA2 has HQV thus a no brainer. I doubt the A20 will have a discrete video processor besides the decoder. If the A20 decoder couldn't do IVTC, then 24p is out of the picture. Just talked to Robert DTV Tivo Dealer , whos probably in the air right now. I'm sure he will clarify his statement. From what I learned at CES, their is very very good reason to think the HD A20 will support 1080p24, even if that has to be with a firmware upgrade after launch. Toshiba may be shy on saying it now,, but I would count on it.

Several reasons that I have to figure out how to say and explain, I am quite confident that the HD A20 will eventually support 1080p24.

It may not right at launch and Toshiba might be shy about saying it might , but from what I know now I would be very confident that 1080p 24 support will come for the HD A20.

Just talked to Robert DTV Tivo dealer as he was heading to the airport. He is not the source of my HD A20 1080p24 info, and i know what he posted but that was in reference to the status upon launch.

That info doesn't conflict with my confidence on eventual support, I have very strong reasons and information to believe that that support would soon be available for the A20 even if it wasn't included at launch.

I would buy one, if I absolutely needed 24p and that was the only thing holding me back.

ignoring the metadata and extracting the 1080p24 straight from the disc?


I believe that's what people do on the PC with the add-on.
For a CE player, it might be safer to go the IVTC route. I hope Keith could comment on this. IVTC might give a better 24p experience than the ignore sequence header route especially for mixed content(not PiP overlay).

I know thelion-Joe Kane despise the extra step. :) Hey, that is what bluray for.

What is the A20 offering extra? Just 1080p/60?
Gary
Yep, but 1080p applies for both HD DVD and upconverted standard DVDs. The remotes even the same.

Standard definition DVDs are also upconverted to 1080p.

I also would bet heavily that 1080p24 will also be supported.

The new second generation HD DVD Point Of Sale literature (cardstock 8 page glossy stock with photo inserts) that just got printed in time to hand out at CES states that is the only difference.

that piece states

The HD-A20 takes the performance and convenience of the HD-A2 to the next level. For the highest level of picture quality with today's best performing high-definition TVs, the HD-A20 adds 1080p output. Thats twice the resolution of the 720p signal

Talking about the Xbox 360, new discussion topic:

The Xbox 360 sold 92,000 HD DVD add-ons during 2006.

Opinions?

I think that more weight should be placed on the HD-DVD Add-On than the PS3 in general because those that buy the Add-On are buying it solely for watching movies, whereas those that buy the PS3 may be purchasing it for Movies, Games, or Both. IOW: We *know* what the HD-DVD Add-On is being used for ... the PS3 ... not so much ...

Seems right to me. That means, Tosh sold around 80-100K standalone players. That would jive with the 175K plus players that they reported at CES...

In general I've seen Tosh's own reps come in at the lower end of estimates (say compared to WSJ numbers), while Sony has been saying millions, when it now looks like it was hundreds of thousands... One difference is the Toshiba numbers generally are what they can ID as sales to consumers, while Sony is trying to use shipped numbers. Generally Toshibas numbers are overly conservative, while Sony's are overly aggressive. Its a corporate culture issue as well as a political one as Sony is trying to put the best spin on their numbers, and Toshiba is content with being conservative for now.

I'm primarily interested in certain Honda and Nissan and Ferrari models and wouldn't mind missing a couple hundred other makes/models out there at all, especially if I had to pay for them. Don't pretend that 360 owners will be exempt from this business model themselves as they already have some content only available through Xbox Live (and I am considering the Oblivion expansion if/when comes through XBL).

Yes, in a perfect world, we'd get EVERY expansion for free, but if you've been into computer gaming at all for the last few years you've become used to the paradigm where a good & fun game comes out and better content is offered in expansions that are 25-40% of the original MSRP of the game. Often there are 2 or 3 such expansions before all development ceases and the sequel game is released and the whole cycle starts again...

I don't mind paying for expansions to a game I like to increase longevity ... that's fine ... I take issue with having to pay stuff just to get the basic functionality out of a game ... if the cars that I can purchase are special edition's and just neat fun, that's fine ... if the cars and tracks are needed to be competitive in the game ... and you need to purchase more than 50% of what's available ultimately ... well ... that I'd have a problem with. Of course, this is just speculation on my part, it's in the rumor mill.

I also would bet heavily that 1080p24 will also be supported.


I figured that was obvious, until today. The $100 bought you that flexibility. Very sensible. And very appealing.

But, now who knows what to believe.

Gary

But seriously in the South Hall the Microsoft booth and Intel booth both have signs saying HDi with people staffing those demos. I talked to the guy in the Microsoft booth as he was doing his demo of HDi functionality.That's annoying - I asked several Microsoft personnel in the Central Hall booth and they all said there was no Microsoft presence in the South Hall.

I asked about this in the Blu-Ray booth as well. Apparently there are no players currently announced that have promissed upgradability to BD-Live. So the current ethernet ports on BD players and the LG are for network upgrades only.That doesn't mean they won't be able to support BD-Live, just that they haven't announced it.
So are you saying you believe the G2 Samsung will be upgradeable to BD-Live?Yes, that is my expectation, based in no way on discussions with Samsung personnel. So if you buy one and it ultimately isn't, don't expect me to reimburse you!

Yes, that is my expectation, based in no way on discussions with Samsung personnel. So if you buy one and it ultimately isn't, don't expect me to reimburse you!
What is that expectation based on then?

That's annoying - I asked several Microsoft personnel in the Central Hall booth and they all said there was no Microsoft presence in the South Hall.

I think I understand the problem. Take a look at the attached map. As you walk from the central hall toward the south hall you pass through that greenish building on the map. I believe this is actually where they were located. As I was walking it I thought I had already entered the South Hall.

If you recall seeing where Cnet was filming their live from CES show, the entrance was directly to the left of that.

A correction (I'll save a rebuttal for the Format Battle thread):
Not true. A demonstration was shown by Fox of a networked trivia game where multiple people competed against each other from separate Blu-ray players.
I thought you said that this was done on PCs, and not CE products. If so, then it is not a proper response to what we showed and what I said (demo on shipping players). And of course, I talked about relevant movie scenarios, whereas you are talking about “trivia” games talking together on PCs. I think that has been done before. No? :)

In addition, I will contend that what is demonstrated is largely a function of how much money those companies choose to devote to building demonstrations.
Fair enough. But didn’t Disney/Fox make high-budget movies a year ago to demonstrate interactivity features that have yet to ship in BD products? Compared to that, I'd say we spent a fraction of that. The demos were put together very quickly because programming HDi is very simple and quick. And most of the work was done by our post house partners who are skilled in HDi programming.

There is no question that the HDi demos shown could easily be supported on BD-Live as well.
Well, maybe. The way to prove that point is with things people can touch and independently verify, like our demo.

Also, wouldn't you have a higher hill to climb, with first figuring out how to bring BD-Live to machines with networking, and some exchange program for many people with BD players with no networking hardware, before your demo would have any value to folks?

What would have been more significant would be actual titles using these features...
Agree that real titles are best. But our track record here is excellent. Last CES we showed HDi interactivity for Bourne Supremacy. And a few months later, the title came out sporting the same features. And we have been advancing the art ever since. Take a look at Miami Vice with dynamic PiP where the movie shrinks/expands/moves under control of HDi (no fake PiP there :)).

Yeah I read a bit where they related the 92k versus 4.5 million X360s shipped to date (in its life).

So you get 2% attach rate.

Let's look at the numbers from a different perspective.

92,000 customers who paid to watch HD-DVD movies

687,000 customers who paid to play games and might watch BD movies

hmmmmmm......it's looking pretty good to me. ;)

Let's look at the numbers from a different perspective.

92,000 customers who paid to watch HD-DVD movies

687,000 customers who paid to play games and might watch BD movies

hmmmmmm......it's looking pretty good to me. ;)The question is - what wiill the dog days bring for PS3 - March, April, May...We talking 100K, 300K, or 500K months? Certainly 6 million by March 07 is totally out of the question, not from a supply view, but from a demand view. I still say someone should question Andy Parsons why he said 4 to 7 million PS3s by end of year 2006. That remark to Bill Hunt ranks as possibly the greatest bait and switch in Consumer Electronics history.

Thanks! I thought there were three profiles based on that 'compilation' post someone made: BD1.0 (Current Gen), BD1.1 (+PiP), and BD2.0 (+Network) ... with increased levels of mandatory local storage at each?It depends on how you look at it since though I think of it as three profiles you could also think of it as two profiles with higher requirements for one of them after a certain date.


I'd like a HDMI Xbox 360 as much as the next guy, but I like haveing 10+ million units on the market more. And it's not like HDMI would make the games look any better compared to component analog.So your saying that Xbox 360 games won't look any better on digital displays even with HDMI? Also with HDMI output you could also have uncompressed PCM audio from the Xbox 360. Personally speaking I for one would be far more likely to buy an Xbox 360 if it included an HDMI output.

So your saying that Xbox 360 games won't look any better on digital displays even with HDMI? Also with HDMI output you could also have uncompressed PCM audio from the Xbox 360. Personally speaking I for one would be far more likely to buy an Xbox 360 if it included an HDMI output.

You see a big diff between HDMI and component video? I don't and I have a really nice 106" display with calibrated projector.

It depends on how you look at it since though I think of it as three profiles you could also think of it as two profiles with higher requirements for one of them after a certain date.Richard, as one who was there that night on AVS not long ago when the BD "profiles" were originally and unintentionally revealed, I just have to :) and marvel at the marketing spin that has been put on them, just as I predicted that night...Kudos to Sony and the BDA! Just because BD is not ready to deploy should not deter them from selling players! Breaks the meter on the unintentional comedy scale... :rolleyes:

I'm sure every doctor and lawyer that buys a BD player in the next six months will be FULLY informed as to what they are getting, because, as Talk says, they will be on this forum checking into all of the details. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Richard, as one who was there that night on AVS not long ago when the BD "profiles" were originally and unintentionally revealed, I just have to :) and marvel at the marketing spin that has been put on them, just as I predicted that night...Kudos to Sony and the BDA! Just because BD is not ready to deploy should not deter them from selling players! Breaks the meter on the unintentional comedy scale... :rolleyes:

I'm sure every doctor and lawyer that buys a BD player in the next six months will be FULLY informed as to what they are getting, because, as Talk says, they will be on this forum checking into all of the details. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

The folks at Engadget don't understand the subtleties. They posted a story recently saying that the LG universal player lacks HD-DVD interactive functionality but has BD interactive functionality (because it supports BD-J).

If the folks at Engadget don't understand, how many consumers will? It's pretty clear the BD CEs don't see this as a problem.

Let's look at the numbers from a different perspective.

92,000 customers who paid to watch HD-DVD movies

687,000 customers who paid to play games and might watch BD movies

hmmmmmm......it's looking pretty good to me. ;)

Let's look at the numbers from even another perspective.

If the $200 Xb360-AO hadn't been around for the '06 holiday season to boost HW sales, HD-DVD would have been SOL.. ;)

b2b

The folks at Engadget don't understand the subtleties. They posted a story recently saying that the LG universal player lacks HD-DVD interactive functionality but has BD interactive functionality (because it supports BD-J).Well, from what I understand, that is true, which is why DVD Forum will not give them authorization to carry the HD DVD Logo. After all, the LG is a BD player converted to a combo player. I heard the 2G unit will be HDi compatible. LG just couldn't stand to release another BD player to no sales, and instead tried to add value, albeit prematurely.

You may know more...

If the folks at Engadget don't understand, how many consumers will? It's pretty clear the BD CEs don't see this as a problem.I'm sure 75% of AVS Forum members do not even know about the BD profiles...

Let's look at the numbers from even another perspective.

If the $200 Xb360-AO hadn't been around for the '06 holiday season to boost HW sales, HD-DVD would have been SOL.. ;)

b2bThat's like saying if BD didn't have Sony around, then they'd be SOL. A complete waste of typing.

Well, from what I understand, that is true, which is why DVD Forum will not give them authorization to carry the HD DVD Logo. After all, the LG is a BD player converted to a combo player. I heard the 2G unit will be HDi compatible. LG just couldn't stand to release another BD player to no sales, and instead tried to add value, albeit prematurely.

You may know more...

I'm sure 75% of AVS Forum members do not even know about the BD profiles...

What I was getting at is that it supports BD-J not BD-Live. To say that it supports the interactive functionality of Blu-Ray is not accurate. Unless you use a very limited definition of what interactivity is.

Sure, someone with an analog-only display or player shouldn't purchase ICT-encoded titles, and should make that clear to publishers.

Of course, there aren't any of those shipping, or announced, or even rumored.
I wasn't talking about ICT. 540p just happened to be the no. I chose cos it is half of 1080p in one dimension.

My original point stands as is. You may replace 540p with 720p for purposes of discussion. Either way, semantic-play is not welcome by buyers.

I, as a buyer could not care less about what the decoding is if the ouput is not faithful to it. And attempts to justify it otherwise smacks of a bad attitude towards consumers, Imo.

If you (not you personally, Ben) decode the data, please send it out in the decoded form without down-conversion IF you state that you support the concerned data-format (THD in this case or PQ rez in my example).

Which makes me shake my head when people condem Sony for the design of the PS3. That product has over 1 billion $$ invested in the CELL development alone. Look around and try to find any other CE products that are more cutting edge than the PS3. I'm not aware of any, except the new iPhone from Apple and I don't know if you could classify it as a CE product.

b2b
Amen

Let's look at the number from even another perspective.

If the $200 Xb360-AO hadn't been around for the '06 holiday season to boost HW sales, HD-DVD would have been SOL.. ;)

b2b You know, I agree with you here.

The HD A1 sold so well that their was a gap when they had to delay the HD XA2 to fix the chip problem. That gap would have been more of an issue if the Xbox 360 HD DVD player bundle had not picked up the slack with attach rates similar to the HD A1.

But since it did launch in that gap between the first and second generation HD DVD players it saved the day. :)

Now Toshiba is saying that HD A2's and HD A20s and HD XA2 soon will be available in mass inventory as soon as the boats arrive and unload through customs.

It will be interesting to see what HD DVD sales will be when the players are no longer supply constrained and Toshiba and the HD DVD Promotions group start advertising and point of sale product training.

Who knows, maybe even you will be convinced enough to buy one. ;)

You could always buy one and not tell us in public here...., so you wouldn't get in trouble or anything like that........ ;)

You wouldn't want to watch TV on an X360 before they do the die shrink and reduce the fan noise and power consumption.

Anyways, PS3 is why Blu-Ray has so much content support. The makers of standalones will have to differentiate with better features, like integrating a DVR, recordability, better playback performance, better remotes, etc.

Or they could have done HD-DVD players only to get undercut by Toshiba and the Chinese but still have no content support. That's a recipe for success. :rolleyes:
Good points and a great summation of the choice facing CE makers.

Metal Gear Solid 4, Final Fantasy 13, Killzone 2, Lair, Gran Tourismo 5, Motorstorm, Heavenly Sword, just to name a few.For now, anyway...assuming of course they blow anything on the 360 away, enough to sell the pS3.


Konami Cans PS3 and Wii Games
Luckily, Metal Gear Solid 4 is still on (11 Jan 2007) (http://news.spong.com/article/11476?cb=966)

PS3 exclusives seem to be dropping like flies...

That's like saying if BD didn't have Sony around, then they'd be SOL. A complete waste of typing.

Well I didn't want to be harsh but... Face the facts. HD-DVD with Toshiba was DOA and MS put it on life support and the "intervention" with the Xb360-AO got the format through the '06 holiday crisis when Toshiba dropped the ball on getting the A2 shipping.

Even now the only HW for HD-DVD is three PC based Toshiba players (2 shipping), the AO and some announcements from Microsoft working with Broadcom on a "reference platform". If you hadn't noticed, Sigma is already shipping a "reference platform" for SoC BD players right now.

b2b

Many of the huge games that were PS2 exclusive (GTA for instance) are already slated to go on both PS3 and 360 this time, so the advantage is not there. If that trend continues then what will differentiate the 3 systems?
Better physics and graphics (textures etc.) may help. Higher rez is something we will see in 2007.

Yeah I read a bit where they related the 92k versus 4.5 million X360s shipped to date (in its life).

So you get 2% attach rate.
I reckon comparing againstthe installed base of 360 owners might be a better gauge. Jmo. Is there some methodology behnid only coutning the consoles sold while the add-on was around?

You know, I agree with you here.

The HD A1 sold so well that their was a gap when they had to delay the HD XA2 to fix the chip problem. That gap would have been more of an issue if the Xbox 360 HD DVD player bundle had not picked up the slack with attach rates similar to the HD A1.

But since it did launch in that gap between the first and second generation HD DVD players it saved the day. :)

Now Toshiba is saying that HD A2's and HD A20s and HD XA2 soon will be available in mass inventory as soon as the boats arrive and unload through customs.

It will be interesting to see what HD DVD sales will be when the players are no longer supply constrained and Toshiba and the HD DVD Promotions group start advertising and point of sale product training.

Who knows, maybe even you will be convinced enough to buy one. ;)

You could always buy one and not tell us in public here...., so you wouldn't get in trouble or anything like that........ ;)

A quick check of epinions shows that everybody and his brother have A2s for sale. If they get boatloads, then you will have street vendors trying to sell them.... ;)

http://www99.epinions.com/Toshiba_HD_A2_HD_DVD_Player/display_~latest_prices

b2b

Regarding the Samsung eventually supporting BD-Live:

Yes, that is my expectation, based in no way on discussions with Samsung personnel. So if you buy one and it ultimately isn't, don't expect me to reimburse you!

Wow. Just wow.

The folks at Engadget don't understand the subtleties. They posted a story recently saying that the LG universal player lacks HD-DVD interactive functionality but has BD interactive functionality (because it supports BD-J).

If the folks at Engadget don't understand, how many consumers will? It's pretty clear the BD CEs don't see this as a problem.

Testify brutha'!

I will now take this opportunity to again ask for links for where a person may educate themselves on the features of Blu Ray profiles, and how they are implemented on current players.

(and Talk, your "I've already admitted there needs to be better education" statement is negated by your more recent re-assertion that "if those feature are important to consumers they should not buy a player today that does not proimise them" stance.)

Anybody?

Bueller...?

Bueller...?

You see a big diff between HDMI and component video? I don't and I have a really nice 106" display with calibrated projector.No offense but just because you can not see a difference between HDMI and component video on your projector does not prove anything. After all for a digital display to properly show a difference between HDMI and component video it must be capable of 1:1 pixel mapping and have a pure digital pathway. Also this does not even get into the issues you can have with the video source itself.


Richard, as one who was there that night on AVS not long ago when the BD "profiles" were originally and unintentionally revealed, I just have to :) and marvel at the marketing spin that has been put on them, just as I predicted that night...Kudos to Sony and the BDA!No offense Mike but for some reason you seem to have always had a chip on your shoulder about the Blu-ray profiles (http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=628111). Look honestly speaking there are both positives and negatives to profiles. For instance HD PiP decoding will be required in all Blu-ray players after this June and that is something that is pretty nice. Add in that any BD-Live player will require at least 1 GB of persistent storage and it seems to me like the BDA planned this out well for the long term. Now of course all of this matters little to those who bought BD-Video 1.0 players which is why I agree that consumers should know about the Blu-ray profiles. What I dislike is the fact that certain posters are far more interested in attacking Blu-ray over this issue than in actually informing consumers.


Just because BD is not ready to deploy should not deter them from selling players!If Toshiba had added TL-51 with its larger capacity and higher bandwidth to HD DVD early last year than this criticism would make more sense.


I'm sure every doctor and lawyer that buys a BD player in the next six months will be FULLY informed as to what they are getting, because, as Talk says, they will be on this forum checking into all of the details. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:I certainly would have no problem with you putting a link to my post about the Blu-ray profiles (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9391582&&#post9391582) in your signature if you want to help educate consumers about this issue.


Wow. Just wow.Why are you so surprised by that? Talkstr8t doesn't know whether it will be a BD-Video 1.1 player or a BD-Live player. Obviously the presence of an Ethernet jack on it would indicate that it might be a BD-Live player but it does not guarantee it.

Testify brutha'!

I will now take this opportunity to again ask for links for where a person may educate themselves on the features of Blu Ray profiles, and how they are implemented on current players.

(and Talk, your "I've already admitted there needs to be better education" statement is negated by your more recent re-assertion that "if those feature are important to consumers they should not buy a player today that does not proimise them" stance.)

Anybody?

Bueller...?

Bueller...?

While you are out there digging, how about seeing if you can find any info on the "Performance Level 2 & 3" for HD-DVD while you're at it.... ;)

b2b

No offense Mike but for some reason you seem to have always had a chip on your shoulder about the Blu-ray profiles (http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=628111). Look honestly speaking there are both positives and negatives to profiles. For instance HD PiP decoding will be required in all Blu-ray players after this June and that is something that is pretty nice. Add in that any BD-Live player will require at least 1 GB of persistent storage and it seems to me like the BDA planned this out well for the long term. Now of course all of this matters little to those who bought BD-Video 1.0 players which is why I agree that consumers should know about the Blu-ray profiles. What I dislike is the fact that certain posters are far more interested in attacking Blu-ray over this issue than in actually informing consumers.

What I dislike is the audacious idea that other consumers should even have to do this. :mad:


Why are you so surprised by that? Talkstr8t doesn't know whether it will be a BD-Video 1.1 player or a BD-Live player. Obviously the presence of an Ethernet jack on it would indicate that it might be a BD-Live player but it does not guarantee it.

Because we are talking something like 6 months after BR hit the market and the best that an acknowedged BD industry insider can tell a consumer boils down to "You spins da wheel, and ya takes yer chances!"

Oof.

Which makes me shake my head when people condem Sony for the design of the PS3. That product has over 1 billion $$ invested in the CELL development alone. Look around and try to find any other CE products that are more cutting edge than the PS3. I'm not aware of any, except the new iPhone from Apple and I don't know if you could classify it as a CE product.

AmenA. The iPhone is an overpriced way too large cell phone. Cell phone guys breathed a sigh of relief when it was introduced. Ridiculous - can't even fit in the pocket...and $500/$600 reminds me of PS3.

B. Just because Sony spent way too much money on CELL development does not make it good, no matter how much you guys insist that the more money spent must equal better tech. 360 CPU = relatively easy programming (using MS tools). 360 GPU = powerful graphics processing. PS3 CELL = difficult programming. PS3 GPU = weak graphics processing.

Wasn't it said repeatedly a while ago that all was needed was ignoring the metadata and extracting the 1080p24 straight from the disc?

I don't want the 1080p24-1080i60-1080p24 double conversion.

According to THIS POST (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9411192&&#post9411192) from a HD disc compressionist and author, this should be possible:

Most HD-DVDs are 1080p24. The reason for the confusion may be because the 1080p24 encode has metadata attached so the player will know how to handle the transition to 1080i. So your thoughts are 100% correct. A player that outputs native 1080p24 should ignore the metadata and output the stream. A real world example is to follow. I did a 1080p24 encode, using Microsoft's encoder, for HD-DVD. I then was able to remove the extra metadata for HD-DVD and have a 1080p24 encode for Blu-ray which I imported into Scenarist BD. It involved zero encoding to go from what the R&B rep is thinking is 1080i to 1080p24 for Blu-ray. That wouldn't be possible if the HD-DVD was truly 1080i.

According to THIS POST (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9411192&&#post9411192) from a HD disc compressionist and author, this should be possible:

That's the exact same thing that has been said forever. "Just ignore how the disc is encoded" and do what you want. Problem is the only devices so far that "ignore" the encoding are PCs. If it so dang easy what's the holdup with Toshiba standalone players doing 24p ??

b2b

I wasn't talking about ICT. 540p just happened to be the no. I chose cos it is half of 1080p in one dimension.

My original point stands as is. You may replace 540p with 720p for purposes of discussion. Either way, semantic-play is not welcome by buyers.

I, as a buyer could not care less about what the decoding is if the ouput is not faithful to it. And attempts to justify it otherwise smacks of a bad attitude towards consumers, Imo.

If you (not you personally, Ben) decode the data, please send it out in the decoded form without down-conversion IF you state that you support the concerned data-format (THD in this case or PQ rez in my example).
The Xbox 360 outputs the media over the connections it has. I'm not sure exactly what you expect ought to happen here :). If you hook up an A1 to an amp via TOSLink, you get DTS as well. Do you complain that a CD player doesn't give you digital out when you hook it up via RCA?

For videophiles who insist on HDMI, go for a HDMI enabled player, with our blessing. HDMI is the first widely available interconnect available for multichannel PCM. You're using "downconversion" incorrectly - nothing is being degraded; the playe is making best effort to get the best possible version of the content out via the available connectors, just like an ygood player would.

This also plugs into the broader point that audio simply isn't transported how it's encoded anymore, since the audio gets mixed in player. I realize this is a big mental and even emotional shift for many enthusiasts, but it is what it is, and it's a good thing. Even if the disc is THD, THD isn't going to what's going over HDMI.

While you are out there digging, how about seeing if you can find any info on the "Performance Level 2 & 3" for HD-DVD while you're at it.... ;)

b2b

You seem to have lapsed in to telling me what to do again.

You ask your questions, and I'll ask mine.

(And if you missed it, I did, and the answer is that they are not ratified parts of the standard that there are any plans around yet. If such happens without disclosure, you can join me in complaining, K?)

No offense Mike but for some reason you seem to have always had a chip on your shoulder about the Blu-ray profiles (http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=628111).Of course! Everyone did (and does).

Thanks for the link though...That thread was good times...Whatever happened to Semblance, and his "this is garbage" posts? Wait...Maybe he was resurrected? :eek:

Look honestly speaking there are both positives and negatives to profiles. For instance HD PiP decoding will be required in all Blu-ray players after this June and that is something that is pretty nice. Would have been nicer if at launch, no?
Add in that any BD-Live player will require at least 1 GB of persistent storage and it seems to me like the BDA planned this out well for the long term. Now of course all of this matters little to those who bought BD-Video 1.0 players which is why I agree that consumers should know about the Blu-ray profiles.Civil of you... :)

What I dislike is the fact that certain posters are far more interested in attacking Blu-ray over this issue than in actually informing consumers.OK, but don't you think this is not our responsibility, but the BD Manufacturer's responsibility? As in, it should be on packaging, and spec sheets? Like a Logo program, perhaps?

If Toshiba had added TL-51 with its larger capacity and higher bandwidth to HD DVD early last year than this criticism would make more sense.I'm still not sure what the issues are with TL-51 so I cannot comment on this. If everything works with G1 players, then all is well. If not, then we can talk.
certainly would have no problem with you putting a link to my post about the Blu-ray profiles (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9391582&&#post9391582) in your signature if you want to help educate consumers about this issue.I'm not sure this tells the whole story (it might only come to light in a book 5 years from now), but I will post in Sig (and keep it dignified).

B. Just because Sony spent way too much money on CELL development does not make it good, no matter how much you guys insist that the more money spent must equal better tech. 360 CPU = relatively easy programming (using MS tools). 360 GPU = powerful graphics processing. PS3 CELL = difficult programming. PS3 GPU = weak graphics processing.

The CELL is also Toshiba. When you wave your Sony Hate stick around blindly you tend to get collateral damage.

PS3 weak graphics? Difficult programming? Does the 360 render games at 1080p? Didn't think so. Programming tools are easy because they are provided by MS? You don't think developers can figure out the PS3 with Sony tools?
PS: the same "criticisms" were leveled at the PS2 as well. Didn't stop it from becoming the most successful platform in history, did it?

You seem to have lapsed in to telling me what to do again.

You ask your questions, and I'll ask mine.

(And if you missed it, I did, and the answer is that they are not ratified parts of the standard that there are any plans around yet. If such happens without disclosure, you can join me in complaining, K?)If you really think about it, the way HD-DVD is 'evolving' in an ad-hoc manner itself is bad enough. We can at least complain about BD profiles.

On the other hand, DVD-forum/Toshiba, doesn't even give us a chance to complain beforehand! :) Just drop the bomb -- HD51 being the case in point. And then there are rumors about those HDi performance profiles. Maybe, that is the strategy (i.e., "don't talk about things beforehand, otherwise there will be questions"). I have really admired HD-DVD camp's execution so far, but I really, really dislike their ad-hoc 'evolution'. I am sure I am not alone in this.

In this case, I would prefer BDA's approach. I went with PS3, and didn't buy a standalone because I was not sure about their capabilities. I took the safer bet; still a bet all the same. How are HD-DVD buyers any more informed? No, seriously, it's not a rhetorical question.

In my opinion, a known evil is better than the unkown one.

If you really think about it, the way HD-DVD is 'evolving' in an ad-hoc manner itself is bad enough. We can at least complain about BD profiles.

On the other hand, DVD-forum/Toshiba, doesn't even give us a chance to complain beforehand! :) Just drop the bomb -- HD51 being the case in point. And then there are rumors about those HDi performance profiles. Maybe, that is the strategy (i.e., "don't talk about things beforehand, otherwise there will be questions"). I have really admired HD-DVD camp's execution so far, but I really, really dislike their ad-hoc 'evolution'. I am sure I am not alone in this.

In this case, I would prefer BDA's approach. I went with PS3, and didn't buy a standalone because I was not sure about their capabilities. I took the safer bet; still a bet all the same. How are HD-DVD buyers any more informed? No, seriously, it's not a rhetorical question.

In my opinion, a known evil is better than the unkown one.

I don't disagree. As matter of fact, disclosure and education is, IMO, the real issue, not features themselves.

Therefore, potential new features don't scare me... it's the execution of them along with the infomation dissemination associated with them that I'm interested in.

Tha having been said, if all disks a year from now are TL-51's, and I can't play them on my A2, I'll honestly be at least a little ticked off, no matter how good a job the HD DVD folks do at disclosure. :(

The Xbox 360 outputs the media over the connections it has. I'm not sure exactly what you expect ought to happen here :). If you hook up an A1 to an amp via TOSLink, you get DTS as well. Do you complain that a CD player doesn't give you digital out when you hook it up via RCA?

For videophiles who insist on HDMI, go for a HDMI enabled player, with our blessing. HDMI is the first widely available interconnect available for multichannel PCM. You're using "downconversion" incorrectly - nothing is being degraded; the playe is making best effort to get the best possible version of the content out via the available connectors, just like an ygood player would.

This also plugs into the broader point that audio simply isn't transported how it's encoded anymore, since the audio gets mixed in player. I realize this is a big mental and even emotional shift for many enthusiasts, but it is what it is, and it's a good thing. Even if the disc is THD, THD isn't going to what's going over HDMI.
I think the original issue has been totally lost here. My bad or yours, I dont know, it doesnt matter.

I dont have the time to go back and repeat the arguments. If you can find the post (by darinp, i think) that summarizes the issue, great. Otherwise, it suffices to say (Imo) that the statements above have nothing to do with the meat of the matter.


P.S. I think multiple-levels of quoting may help prevent such meandering of issues-at-hand, but it would also make some of the posts a page long thanks to the passionate arguments people have here.

Tha having been said, if all disks a year from now are TL-51's, and I can't play them on my A2, I'll honestly be at least a little ticked off, no matter how good a job the HD DVD folks do at disclosure.

A little ticked off? If that happens, I'll be apoplectic!

We've been told repeatedly by HD-DVD supporters that 30 GB is more than enough. So obviously there is no need for these "science fiction" TL 51 discs.

I reckon comparing againstthe installed base of 360 owners might be a better gauge. Jmo. Is there some methodology behnid only coutning the consoles sold while the add-on was around?

I believe the add-on started selling right at the end of November. Does anyone recall the exact date?

92,000 Add-ons

December Xbox360 sales = 1.1 Million units

So about 12 Xbox360s sold for every add-on (more or less). There are other variables though. The add-on was supply constrained and the Xbox360 wasn't, so that can skew the percentages as well.

We've been told repeatedly by HD-DVD supporters that 30 GB is more than enough. So obviously there is no need for these "science fiction" TL 51 discs.

I agree with everything you said. ;)

The CELL is also Toshiba. When you wave your Sony Hate stick around blindly you tend to get collateral damage.Of course CELL is Tosh as well. So? I am not a blind Tosh lover... And no hate stick here. Just don't think CELL is all that...

PS3 weak graphics? Difficult programming? Does the 360 render games at 1080p? Didn't think so. Personally, I really don't care...it all looks good if done well. IT'S A VIDEO GAME! Not Lawrence of Arabia. If you render @ 1080p w/PS3, there will be a price to pay elsewhere...It's a waste of time, only a marketing ploy, as usual.

Programming tools are easy because they are provided by MS? You don't think developers can figure out the PS3 with Sony tools? Maybe some day. But developers say MS tools are worlds ahead of Sony here. Fodder for a different thread.

PS: the same "criticisms" were leveled at the PS2 as well. Didn't stop it from becoming the most successful platform in history, did it?Fine, but this here is all about price and available games. Gaming capabilities are equal. Numbers are on the 360 side. MS has done better this time around courting developers. KK was too busy to meet with them. Which is why he got promoted.

At what point will all the people who can afford a $500/$600 gaming console already have one? I say 2 more months. Then we are talking 200K months...I hear EA Sports dropped price for games on 360, but forgot to do so on PS3. PS3s sit on shelves in January, after 690K sold. Analysts thought this would happen in June. Game ports are going from 360 to PS3. Not good times for KK and Co.

Would you define "very upfront", and provide any examples you think evidence this on Pioneer's behalf?Pioneer literature clearly states that the broadband connection does not support downloadable Blu-ray content, or something to that effect.
What is that expectation [Samsung will be BD-Live] based on then?It has an ethernet port, it has a chipset which supports Blu-ray secondary video, and my expectation that this will be a more-or-less standard feature of all G2 players.
we are talking something like 6 months after BR hit the market and the best that an acknowedged BD industry insider can tell a consumer boils down to "You spins da wheel, and ya takes yer chances!"I am not a Samsung spokesperson. Even if I fully know that it will be BD-Live compliant, it's not appropriate for me to break that news here.

Just to be clear, because I really don't understand ... to take advantage of DD+ or DTS+ or TrueHD, my receiver needs to support that format, correct?Not necessarily. If your player can decode those formats you can output the audio over HDMI (if your player and receiver support them) or analog (if your player supports them). Otherwise you're limited to using the optical connection, which is limited to stereo PCM or 5.1 compressed (Dolby and/or DTS).

That's possible. In fact, what I'm seeing from a while now is MS throwing money at HD DVD left and right, on all levels. (Not that I'm complaining.)

In their own words, they're here "to make sure HD DVD doesn't go away."I'd say more correctly they're here to make sure Blu-ray doesn't succeed. If Blu-ray were to go away, I bet you'd see them drop there HD DVD efforts in a heartbeat. Not that anyone will admit to that right now...

"Blu-ray has superior quality, yes," said a spokesperson for porn studio Bangbros, "but HD DVD is easier to produce, cheaper to produce and there are more HD DVD players in homes than there are Blu-ray players, for example in the Xbox 360."[/I]Which just goes to show how uninformed the person quoted is, since Blu-ray capable homes outnumber HD DVD capable homes by better than 5:1.

I was (am) somewhat puzzled that the LG hybrid would not have HD DVD's interactivity in its first released player, but would have BD's.Simple. All evidence points to the SoC used in many of the players, including the LG, as not being powerful enough to support the demands placed on it by HDi.

I think that more weight should be placed on the HD-DVD Add-On than the PS3 in general because those that buy the Add-On are buying it solely for watching movies, whereas those that buy the PS3 may be purchasing it for Movies, Games, or Both. IOW: We *know* what the HD-DVD Add-On is being used for ... the PS3 ... not so much ...If you choose to ignore the extensive survey Sony did, sure. For the rest of us the 80% figure of people who plan to watch Blu-ray movies on the PS3 gives us a pretty good idea.

The Xbox 360 outputs the media over the connections it has. I'm not sure exactly what you expect ought to happen here :). If you hook up an A1 to an amp via TOSLink, you get DTS as well. Do you complain that a CD player doesn't give you digital out when you hook it up via RCA?

For videophiles who insist on HDMI, go for a HDMI enabled player, with our blessing. HDMI is the first widely available interconnect available for multichannel PCM. You're using "downconversion" incorrectly - nothing is being degraded; the playe is making best effort to get the best possible version of the content out via the available connectors, just like an ygood player would.

This also plugs into the broader point that audio simply isn't transported how it's encoded anymore, since the audio gets mixed in player. I realize this is a big mental and even emotional shift for many enthusiasts, but it is what it is, and it's a good thing. Even if the disc is THD, THD isn't going to what's going over HDMI.

I think What'sHD's lost point is what happens if PiP or secondary video or menu popup or information text is on screen? Is the HD DVD player still outputting at 1080p24, if that is what was being output before with only primary video playing?

The folks at Engadget don't understand the subtleties. They posted a story recently saying that the LG universal player lacks HD-DVD interactive functionality but has BD interactive functionality (because it supports BD-J). To say that it supports the interactive functionality of Blu-Ray is not accurate. Unless you use a very limited definition of what interactivity is.Sorry, 2Channel, network connectivity will one day enable a wide range of content, but it's ridiculous to claim that without it you have a very limited definition. There are many, many compelling interactive features which will be created without network support.

The LG fully supports BD-J. Therefore, it is fully capable of interactivity. Whether it can support BD-Live depends on whether they enable it (it would appear to be capable of it), but you cannot claim it doesn't support Blu-ray interactivity unless you're willing to claim there isn't a single disc of either format with interactivity (since none of them support the network).

If you choose to ignore the extensive survey Sony did, sure. For the rest of us the 80% figure of people who plan to watch Blu-ray movies on the PS3 gives us a pretty good idea.

Can you provide a link to the full text of this survey?