I just purchased a cav6.6 and am getting ready for the pre-wire. I was wondering if you use a keypad splitter and share a zone (not a-bus), like back porch and garage. can you put a knob style volume control between the speaker and the keypad to turn one room down while the ohter is on. I suppose I would also have to run the zone with an additional amp also being that it would be 4 speakers off of 1 zone. Whould any 2 channel amp work for this. I am kind of running out of zones and am thinking this would work, but not sure. any help would be greatly appreciated.
thanks
chris b.

Chris,

You could connect a manual volume control between the amp & speakers for one or both rooms, but the functionality may not be very intuitive?

You will need an external amp to power the additional pair of speakers... almost any amp will do (even an old receiver).

Cheers,
Paul

thanks, paul! i was hoping that you would see this and be able to help me. I have been reading through all the post about the cav and you seem to really understand the system. When you say "intuitive" do you mean that it wont communicate with the main key pad? Would you have any other ideas for doing what im trying to accomplish. Does russound sell a volume control that would work for this application?
I also have the same issue with my kitchen and family room. There is a big opening from kitchen to family and i thought it would be a waste to have them on separate zones, but I also would like the ability to have low volume music on in the kitchen and still be able for someone to watch tv in the living room?
thanks again for any help you can offer.
chris b.

Chris,

By "not intuitive" I just mean that the music volume in the room with the manual volume control would always be at the same level or attenuated from the main room. This works well if you want to reduce the volume in that room only, but if the volume is already turned down (or off) in the main room, you'll have to go back in there to turn the volume up first. What if you want music in the room with the manual volume control, but not in the main room? You can't do it...

You could use a keypad splitter to place an UNO keypad in each room and them also install manual volume controls in each room, but this doesn't seem like a very elegant solution and will add up with the cost of splitters & extra keypads.

What's your adversion to A-Bus? This is a perfect application to use it. Why not put an A-Bus keypad in the Kitchen as a sub-zone off the Family Room? This gives you independant on/off plus volume control of each room, but they'll always stay synced playing the same source (same for the Garage & Porch).

If you're concerned about the limited power of the A-Bus keypads, I think you'll be suprised at how much sound they can put out. A-Bus is a little limited because you can't adjust the bass/treble, but multiple A-Bus sub zones can even be connected to a single CAV6.6 zone using A-Bus hubs... it's quite flexible to meet different configurations.

Cheers,
Paul

paul,
can you use an external amp for abus subzones? do you think the abus w/just 7watts per channel is enough for a fairly large kitchen? after seeing your recommendations for the proficient c620 i bought 6 pairs of them? Would those be ok for a large covered porch on the ceiling or would you recommend something else. do you use the pre construction brackets from proficient for these speakers or something else?
thanks again for your help. it is greatly appreciated.
chris

I've got a CAV66 with some Abus keypads. The downsides to the Abus keypads are no text display (obvious) no track next/prev control and they don't seem to remember the last volume level used. It's a little annoying to power it up and have to raise the volume every time. And the lack of any device control is disappointing. Of course I knew about the lack of device control going in, so that's not a surprise. The volume level, though, that's annoying.

Yes, you can use an external amp with an Abus keypad. I do it for our outside deck area.

can you turn the main zone off/volume down and still listen to the a-bus sub-zone? when hooking up the abus subzone with the amplifier do you have to run any different wires to the abus?
thanks
chris

Yes, you can use the abus keypads independent of the master zone. But if you wanted to control the master zone you'd be using the uno keypad and thus activating the zone. It can pass IR signals from the abus in through the CAV66 to the source devices so you could also use an IR remote.

The wiring is different but you may want to make it the same. I've found it's best to run CAT5 to the wall box and then 4 conductor speaker wire. From the box I then run two 2 pair speaker wires for left and right. On a Uno the 4-conductor back to the CAV66 handles the speakers. When using an Abus it'd remain unused as Abus puts the line-level audio on the CAT5. But if you ever wanted/need to change to a regular zone you'd need that wiring back to the CAV66. Wire's cheap, time/effort to run it again later usually isn't. Inside an Uno wall box I then use euro-style terminal blocks to splice the 4 conductor out to the 2 speakers. Works great.

For an Abus zone that needed an amp, however, you'd do things a bit differently. There would have to be wiring running from the Abus keypad to an amp and THEN up to speakers. I did this for only one location, out on a deck. The master is right next to it in the sunroom thus it isn't likely I'll ever need to upgrade it to an uno zone. So the wiring difference is OK.

I have found it's really helpful to have wiring setup using conduit wherever possible. Either flexible blue 'smurf tubes' or regular electrical gray PVC. When you need to pull more wire it's invaluable having a clear path for it. Just make sure the tubing is large enough to really accomodate everything. And if you don't use tubing then try to drop the wires through clear spaces in the walls and have decent access above or below. This only gets important when you have rooms that might be candidates for "fancier" display setups. For a small or occasional use room (like a bathroom, dining room) it's less important. But for a master bedroom, possible den/office or spoiled child's room it's worth a little planning ahead of time.

Let me back up and clarify the abus slave zone, it can only use whatever source the master is using or was last setup to use. You cannot use different sources on the master and the slave zone. This is where it's a good idea to setup these master/slave arrangements in rooms that have some audio overlap. A dining room off the living room is one such idea. But not a kitchen or a bathroom off the master bedroom. Think about the likelihood of one spouse wanting to watch TV in the bedroom while the other listens to the radio in the bath. For this I put an Uno in each place. Marital bliss is worth planning around...

Just to recap what's been stated in the previous posts and maybe add a bit of detail:

-Main zone and A-Bus subzone will always be synced to the same source

-The A-Bus subzone can play audio from any of the 6 sources, but can only toggle between the first 4 sources by pressing the power button on the keypad (pressing and holding they power button will turn it off). To play source 5 or 6, you'll have to select from the UNO keypad in the main zone.
-The A-Bus keypad will pass IR from a hand held remote for control of the source gear.

-No bass or treble control on A-Bus keypad, and the volume always comes on at a low setting when turning on the subzone (doesn't remember previous voluem setting).

-You can connect an external amp to the Line Out connection of the A-Bus keypad and use it to control the volume.

-You can still use the A-Bus sub zone even if the main zone on the CAV is off. The only issue with this is if you are using Russound sources like the ST2 tuners or SMS3 music servers. The RNET devices are aware if they are in use or not by a CAV or CAM zone and will shut off after a few minutes if they are not. For example: You're listening to XM radio from a Russound ST2-XM Tuner on an A-Bus subzone. If you go and turn off the main zone (UNO Keyapd), and the XM source is not selected by any other main zones, it will shut off the tuner in a few minutes and the music will stop playing on the A-Bus subzone too.

Russound has a new more advanced A-Bus system that is due out Summer 2007. The keypads have a small LCD display (look similar to a UNO-S1 keypad), and will have more powerful digital amps, audio paging, all on/all off, and party funtions. There will also be an accessory keypad which will provide numeric & transport control.

http://www.pksweb.com:8080/images/automation/newabus.jpg

Cheers,
Paul

paul,
After seeing your recommendations for the proficient c620 i bought 6 pairs of them? Would those be ok for a large covered porch on the ceiling or would you recommend something else. do you use the pre construction brackets from proficient for these speakers or something else?
thanks again for your help. it is greatly appreciated.
chris

Chris,

The C620's are a good fit for whole house audio systems. They should work fine in your covered porch, but a little difficult to advise without dimensions or a floor plan.

We do generally use the Proficient pre-construction brackets for new construction or remodels when using their speakers. If the drywall is already up, no need for the brackets, simply cut the hole and secure the speakers.

Cheers,
Paul

Russound has a new more advanced A-Bus system that is due out Summer 2007. The keypads have a small LCD display (look similar to a UNO-S1 keypad), and will have more powerful digital amps, audio paging, all on/all off, and party funtions. There will also be an accessory keypad which will provide numeric & transport control.
Ooo, looks interesting! Any word on what it'll require from a CAV66? Will it work with existing CAV66 units? Or can they be field upgraded via firmware to support these new style abus keypads?

The new A-bus keypads are being designed around a new A-Bus Hub (controller) which is what will allow the additional functionality of paging, party & all on/all off. This new controller is a 1U rack mount (or shelf) design and has the power supply built-in so it's a departure from the A-Bus hubs that are currently available.

Because of this, I don't expect that all the features will be supported when connected to a CAV6.6. Some of the things I think that will still be a benefit when connected to a CAV are bass, treble & loudness controls, a more efficient Class T amp, and setting for turn on volume.

I asked a lot of questions about the new A-Bus stuff at EHX. They had the new keypads & controller on display, but they weren't functioning (the keypad was hooked up, but was powered by an old A-Bus hub). The two employees I spoke with didn't know too much about it yet, including how they'll interface with the CAV.

Cheers,
Paul

well, i spent some time looking at the layout of the house over the weekend and i determined that it would be reasonalbe to use just one zone for the family/kitchen/formal dining/formal living rooms. the kitchen is open to the family room and the two formal rooms have no doors and large opening to them. Was hoping I could have uno in family room w/ a-bus in other three rooms. Would never need different source in one of those rooms at same time. Plasma in family room will not be hooked to cav. So these will be music only and I was hoping that by using a-bus instead of multiple uno's w/keypad splitter that I would be able to control volume independently in each room. If wife was cooking in kitchen she could have music on and i could watch tv in family room. Would this work? if so what components will i need to order for that zone for (3 a-bus controllers and what else). Also if your seeing this Paul, do you think it would be better for me to wait and see how the new a-bus system will integrate with the cav. We wont be finished with the house for 4-5 months. any help is very much appreciated
chris

does anybody know if sources (2 or 3 hddvr's) plugged into the russound VM1, be one of the 6 sources of the CAV or will you still have you CAV sources and also have 4 separate hd video sources that you can control with the CAV.
thanks

anybody?

Well I am not sure, so I wasn't going to speculate, but since no one else has answered I'll post my educated guess (and it is simply a guess - I have not seen any technical material on the VM1).

I suspect that the VM1 will use the same sources as the main system (either by design, or at least as the only practical way of hooking it up). The reason I say this is the VM1 like most HD switchers only handles the component video. You will still need to route audio to the zone, and the VM1 will not have the ability to do this on it's own. Therefore, you'll need to route the audio to the zone using the main controller.

As a side note, I'm hoping it might be possible to route coaxial audio to the zone via the composite video output on the main system. I know this is not how the system is designed and will never be an accepted practice by Russound, but it might work - however it is a long shot. Of course you wouldn't be able to use any of the composite inputs for video. It will have to be an all or nothing thing, and the composite outs are not designed to carry the same frequencies as the digital audio, but it is worth trying out. I guess anyone could try it now to see. I don't own a Russound currently or I would try it myself. Even if it does work, I'm sure the runs would need to be fairly short as I sure the signal would degrade fairly quickly over a longer distance.

i am currently doing a prewire for a new contruction and have a cav unit. I have a question about hooking up a-bus keypads off of a zone. I want family room(zone1) w/ uno and kitchen/dining/formal living room (all somewhat open to each other) run with 3a-bus keypads. how do i hook up external amplifier in this situation. does it connect back at the cav head unit w/all other wiring the exact same as normal wiring. what amplifier would be recommended for this 4sets of speakers? thanks for help!
chris b.

also, what a-bus products would i need for this?? would i need an a-h4 hub or not??? would i need 3-abus keypads 1-a-h4 and 1-power supply???
thanks again
chris

also, what a-bus products would i need for this?? would i need an a-h4 hub or not??? would i need 3-abus keypads 1-a-h4 and 1-power supply???
thanks again
chris

So you want to share zone 1 with three more a-bus keypads? It's usually done by hanging each a-bus keypad as a slave to a separate zone. If you wanted to use more than one you'd have to use a hub. Trouble is I'm not sure you can slave a hub off a CAV66. You'd want to check with Russound on this first.

As for amplification, the in-keypad amps on the a-bus units are usually pretty sufficient for small to medium sized rooms at background levels. It's not like you need to CRANK THE SOUND in these situations. And if you do need more power you'd run the line-level output from the a-bus keypad back to an amp and then to the speakers. I do this out on a deck where I've got an a-bus slave off an adjacent uno in the sunroom. The rock and deck speakers are all driven from a separate 200W amp. But for a living room/dining room I'm not sure you really need added power. You could always run the extra wire just in case. It's common to run a 4-conductor from the CAV66 to the keypad and then up to the speakers. In the case of using an a-bus you'd just run another 4-conductor BACK from the keypad to the central location, to an amp, and then back up the 4-conductor normally used for an uno. The bonus is if you need to rearrange things later to put an uno in place of the a-bus you've already got the right wires in place.

Really think about how you want zones to get shared. Where are you using the other five zones? Stop and give seriously thought about how you'd REALLY listen to what might be different sources in nearby rooms. Like the wife watching TV in the bedroom while you've got morning radio in the adjacent master bath. Or a kitchen show in the TV while there's background music in the dining room. These make a difference when you're talking about sharing a zone. Plan ahead and avoid the headaches of rearranging; which won't be THAT bad if you run the right wires.

i just looked at the picture of the back of the a-bus and it showed the line out for the keypad and it was a speaker wire hookup w/pos/neg like a typical 16guage speaker wire, but the amp it goes to is an rca like a typical line out with just 2 rca type ends. how do you do this?
thanks again
chris

Cables are nothing but connectors and wire. You take the wire from the keypad into the amp and put connectors on it!

Many permanently installed amps use screw or other types of connectors that connect to just the bared ends of the wire. If you're using an amp that requires a connector, you put said connector on the wire.

That and it's often a real pain in the a## to pull wire that already has connectors on it. To say nothing of being considerably more expensive than bulk wire.

One might be tempted to use that question as an example why some stuff isn't sold to the DIY market. But we'll give you the benefit of the doubt...

But if you're not fully aware of how to properly run wire, such that it follows the electrical code and operates as designed, you may want to give serious consideration to hiring a professional that does. This is your house, don't half-a## it.

As to your previous question regarding the VM1 and zones, it seems extremely unlikely you'd get any additional zones through the CAV66. More like the VM1 is slaved to the CAV66 zones and operates in parallel. There's probably only four on the VM1 recognizing that few installations are going to need all six as HD video sources. Sat radio, mp3 streams, CDs, etc, are likely to occupy at least two of the zones, if not more. Better to have only one port going unused on a VM1 than, say, three of them.

what kind of wire/cable do you use for running from the abus keypad to the external amplifier and what kind of rca ends do you use. can i use a 16/4 and put rca ends on it???? im not sure.
thanks

14/4 works best. You can either put ends on it or terminate it into a strip inside a wiring box and then bridge from there to the equipment. I did this as I find it's best not to try pulling wires straight out of the walls directly to equipment. You don't to move the equipment and have it break wire that's permanently in the wall. If you move stuff then you only have the wire from the gear to the wiring box to worry about.

All my gear is in a 72" rack that's on casters. There's an 'umbilical' cord of wires that comes out the top and over to a wiring box. Works great. Sure, it's a bit more work but this stuff's expensive, no sense shortchanging it.

Again, these questions about terminating wires and such seems to reflect a lack of understanding the basics. I strongly urge you to seek the help of a professional installer before you put anything in. Don't just take advice from web forums when it comes to wiring up your home. KNOW the code and/or hire someone that does.