I'm noticing an increasing number of new PS3 owners asking the same question: "How can I get lossless (PCM, Dolby True HD, DTS MA) from my PS3? I realize that some of you are on a budget and don't want to spend too much on a receiver. Keep this in mind - The only way to get lossless audio from the PS3 is by using HDMI to your receiver.

Essentially, what you need is a receiver that can handle PCM audio through HDMI - PCM is basically the digital master form of the film's audio before it is losslessly "zipped" into Dolby True HD and DTS HD MA. When True HD and DTS MA are decoded ("un-zipped" either by the player or receiver), it becomes PCM again. All three are essentially the same thing in the end. Thus, you need a receiver that will accept a 5.1 (or 7.1 in some cases) PCM stream.

* For all Dolby True HD discs, the PS3 will decode it (5.1 - 7.1) and send it to your receiver as PCM.

* For all DTS Master Audio discs, as of now, no decoder exists, therefore, you can use Optical or HDMI to listen to the core track at still a strong 1.5mbps.

* You can still listen to uncompressed PCM through your optical out if you wish, but it will be a 2.0 stereo signal. If you do not have a receiver and using TV speakers (only if your TV has an optical input), this is as good as it gets. With a receiver, keep in mind that you will still be restricted to 2.0 even if you hear sound coming out of all of your speakers. Your receiver's DSP and surround settings may be matrixing the 2.0 into a 5.1 or 7.1. This is not true 5.1 PCM.

Here are some suggestions that people on this forum have endorsed. Keep in mind that some of these receivers can only accept/output a 1080i signal. So be aware if you have a 1080p display. You can google search these receivers for more information.

$600 and under.

- Onkyo TX- 05 series. Particularly 605 and 705. Both have True HD and DTS MA decoders. Will retail for $499. This is going to be a monster value.
- Yamaha V661 / HTR 6060 (1080p, with HDMI audio processing!)
- Harman Kardon AVR 247 The best pure sound at this price.
- Sony STR-DG1000
- Denon 2307 CI.
- Onkyo SR604
- Onkyo SR674


$600 - $1000

- Panasonic SA-XR700 (The first official Blu-ray compatible receiver)
- Sony STR-DA3200ES
- Yamaha V1700
- Yamaha V2700
- Denon 2807
- Denon 3806
- Pioneer Elite 74txvi
- Pioneer Elite 72txvi
- Pioneer Elite 82txs
- Pioneer Elite 84txs

2007 Models

- Pioneer Elite 91, 92, 94THX (THD + DTSMA)
- Onkyo SR 805 (probably the BEST Value for you dollar under $1000) (THD + DTSMA), a bit more and you can get the more impressive 875.
- Yamaha V881
-Denon 2808 (THD + DTSMA)
-Harman Kardon 347, 745

How about some more options going steadily up in price :) This could be a nice informative thread for folks looking to get an hdmi receiver at whatever price point they are looking.

The XR57 wont pass 1080p. I know, I had one with my PS3. This should be changed to 1080p and PCM over HDMI recievers thread :).

The XR57 wont pass 1080p. I know, I had one with my PS3. This should be changed to 1080p and PCM over HDMI recievers thread :).

Isn't it down -10db for the sub output also?

The Panasonic sa-xr 700 fixes both of these issues.

i have actually been looking into getting sound. i was going to go with the denon avr-1506 and the b&w m1-mt10 speakers but the deal on the $250 panny has my attention.

I'd like to hear this lossless audio I keep hearing about, but don't want to upgrade my receiver this soon (purchased maybe 6 months ago and otherwise working perfectly). Is it technically possible that (via a firmware update) the lossless audio could pass over Optical.. or is that something that just isnt possible outside of a hardware solution?

I believe that is just too much information to pass through optical...but I've been wrong before!

I'd like to hear this lossless audio I keep hearing about, but don't want to upgrade my receiver this soon (purchased maybe 6 months ago and otherwise working perfectly). Is it technically possible that (via a firmware update) the lossless audio could pass over Optical.. or is that something that just isnt possible outside of a hardware solution?

I just bought a Marantz 4001 relatively cheaply in Hong Kong (2850hkd = 365) which passes uncompressed PCM through HDMI. BHD sounds incredible....so much better than regular DD. Worth the upgrade to BR just for the improvement in sound. (previously used denon 3801). Not sure about 1080p, since I'm still using component to my older Sony 36" CRT (1080i max).

Can anyone confirm whether the 4001 can pass 1080p in case I upgrade my tv in 6-9 months?

i wonder if the panasonic is available in the uk

Great thread idea eightninesuited.

if you only have a 5.1 setup, would it be pointless to get a receiver capable of DTS-MA?
note: i cannot possibly upgrade the speaker arrangement to 6.1 or 7.1... space and room setup does not permit that. room 1 is my bedroom in my parents home, room 2 is my dorm room. we have 5.1 in the dorm (roomies brought that).. not as good as mine in my room but suffices considering my speakers will not fit in a dorm (towers and bookshelves).

if you only have a 5.1 setup, would it be pointless to get a receiver capable of DTS-MA?You just need a receiver with HDMI 1.1, as the PS3 will do the DTS-MA decoding in March.

Isn't it down -10db for the sub output also?

The Panasonic sa-xr 700 fixes both of these issues.Afaik, the Panasonic SA-XR57 has several limitations, namely the inability to pass 1080p, the inability to apply bass management to LPCM signals, and the -10dB LFE output (same issue affects receivers from Pioneer). The Sony PS3 doesn't offer bass management or speaker setup like some other players which can help avoid/offset these limitations, which could be a problem satellites or small bookshelves.

The Onkyo 604 doesn't have any of these issues, afaik, but the sound quality isn't as good as the Panasonic for coax/ optical sources.

Is it technically possible that (via a firmware update) the lossless audio could pass over Optical.. or is that something that just isnt possible outside of a hardware solution?It's technically possible with the optical interface, but not technically possible as the hardware is implemented by all players and receivers. In other words, lossless multichannel audio will never happen via optical or coax. No software update or change can ever make it happen. If you want lossless audio with the PS3, save your money for a receiver with HDMI 1.1 or later.

I looked at the denon AVR-1506 pictures front and back and don't see any HDMI connection but they mention it has one,... I just can't find it.

Ok I am pretty stupid and a noob to the audio aspect of things for the most part... I need to upgrade my receiver soon and I was looking at the Onkyo 604, but I was reading some stuff and it made me have some questions I figured I would see if I could get answered here...

If you have an HDMI going through to the receiver, can you use compenent video out to your TV for picture?

Also, if you have Component, Composite, S-Video going to the receiver, can you use HDMI to the TV for the picture?

Guess I am mainly asking if you can kind of mix them... I have many systems and whatnot and my current TV is component only (yeah I know... I need a new TV that doesn't blow)... so right now I need something that can take HDMI (my PS3 for example), components, and still get all of the benefits from it...

Sorry for it being worded so poorly... I can't really explain what I mean well enough to ask the question I guess... hopefully one of you can read "stupid" out there and know the answers.


Thank you.

How is the Sony STR DG 800 ???

Circuit City is selling a Sherwood for $249 that is 7.1 and HDMI. Anyone know if that one is good? Is Sherwood generally a good brand?

That cheap Sherwood does HDMI pass-thru without sound processing, not true HDMI switching. There's a difference.

Even though I will be going for a low-mid range receiver, I'm still waiting for HDMI 1.3 support. I waited this long, what's 1 more year?

I am thinking about upgrading my receiver too.

I own a Yamaha RX-V1400.

I want something that is at least 110x7, HDMI, and 1080p pass through.

What would you recommend?

The Yamahas have the -10 issue so my guess is it will not be another Yamaha.

I appreciate the recommendations and would like to keep price under $750.

Thanks!

So with these choices you still don't get any Dolby TrueHD or DTS-MA, I hope you all know that...

So with these choices you still don't get any Dolby TrueHD or DTS-MA, I hope you all know that...Provided the receiver has HDMI 1.1 and supports LPCM multichannel audio over that input, you certainly do.

The PS3 unpacks (unzips) TrueHD and outputs the contents -- uncompressed multichannel LPCM -- through HDMI. The PS3 will do the same thing for DTS-HD MA after the March software update.

The PS3 unpacks (unzips) TrueHD and outputs the contents -- uncompressed multichannel LPCM -- through HDMI.

O rly? Nice...

Nevermind then. :D

Also, the Denon 2807 and 2307 will do what you ask (some processing allowed of multi-channel LPCM and no LFE issue). However, it is still unclear what HDMI receivers will do with 96 kHz, 8 channel LPCM tracks (a possibility some day), or even 6.1 discrete lossless (unpacked to LPCM) from a soundtrack like X-Men 3. Some DSP engines will not accept anything other than 48 kHz or 88.2 kHz LPCM for processing. You need horsepower to add processing in 96 kHz or 192 kHz multi-channel modes.

The PS3 could also output SA-CD multi-channel via 192 kHz at some point. What will these processors do at that point? An unknown.

It might be a good idea to hold off until after CES to see what the manufacturers will announce.

How is the Sony STR DG 800 ???

It does not decode audio through HDMI. It is only a pass through. I learned this first hand. I have now upgraded to the Sony STR DG 1000 and it decodes everything. You can buy this model for just a little more than the 800 ($525.00 for me on Ebay). I had to order it online because my Best Buy just had the STR DG 800 as their top Sony model. :)

Waitaminute....the Panny has the same bass issues as Pioneer receivers?

I just ordered it this weekend to replace my Pioneer VSX-D812K, for two reasons.
One is that I plan on getting a PS3 soon, the other is that when hooked up via the 5.1 analog outs on my HD-A1, bass is very weak on HD-DVD. I was hoping making the move to HDMI, or at least hooking it to the 5.1 analog inputs on the Panny, would resolve that issue. Is this not the case?

Waitaminute....the Panny has the same bass issues as Pioneer receivers?

I just ordered it this weekend to replace my Pioneer VSX-D812K, for two reasons.
One is that I plan on getting a PS3 soon, the other is that when hooked up via the 5.1 analog outs on my HD-A1, bass is very weak on HD-DVD. I was hoping making the move to HDMI, or at least hooking it to the 5.1 analog inputs on the Panny, would resolve that issue. Is this not the case?

You want the Panasonic sa-xr 700 which does not have the -10db issue, does 1080p and 8 channel 192/24 over hdmi with 1.2 hdmi.

I just ordered one for 549.00

The Panys are designed to be basically a powered dac....but only via digital....and in this scenario hdmi digital.

Thank goodness for you guys. I was able to cancel the Panny and order the Onkyo from J&R for just $369.00 shipped.

Guys, if you're getting an HDMI receiver MAKE SURE you match the output of your PS3 to what your receiver can accept. Sending a 1080p signal into a 1080i HDMI receiver is not going to work well.

Hmmm, I'm pretty slow to get new technology but I guess I should ask questions to find out how to further upgrade my setup.

I had a 36" RCA TV (S-Video) for the past 10 years or so and upgraded to the Sony 60" SXRD XBR (dual HDMI v1.2). I also now have a PS3 console (1 HDMI v1.3). So visually I'm all set for Blu-ray movies and next-gen games. I also have an upconverting DVD recorder (1 HDMI v1.2) to record my NBA games.

My current sound setup however is a Pioneer receiver and speakers from 10 years ago that sends out a 2.1 Dolby signal that simulates surround sound by sending the same rear signal to both of the back speakers. It's a simulated 5.1 effect that sounds decent enough to all the laypeople in my family, but it sounds as if there's a major difference in the newer technology.

I'm looking at Onkyo 604 recommended here and have a few questions:

- Is it a waste to get a 7.1 receiver when I know I won't ever add more than 5.1 speakers? My room arrangement is set and I know it won't accommodate two extra speakers plopped in between the couch and the TV since the kids are always running around.

- What is the final wire arrangement for what I have if I got the Onkyo.....
PS3 HDMI->Receiver HDMI->HDTV HDMI for one setup, and DVD Recorder HDMI->Receiver HDMI->HDTV HDMI for the other setup?

- Speakers... is there anything in particular to make sure I look at when considering speakers? I doubt my old bookshelf units have enough 'oomph' to take advantage of this receiver. I really don't yet understand all of the lossless/PCM/DTS talk, so in general what must I make sure the speakers are fully compliant with considering all the gadgets I currently have? BTW, I'll place the setup in the corner of a room that's roughly 12x30 feet.

Thanks!

There are issues with the PS3 and XR-57 in regard to CDaudio/SACD playback:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=769373

From this thread. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9107902&&#post9107902)
So, a box was waiting for me this afternoon, and inside was a nice, shiny Sony STRDG1000. I've played around with it for a while, and here's my take...

Equipment:
PS3: Blu-ray, SACD via HDMI.
Pioneer DV588S: DVD-A, SACD via 6-channel analog
HTPC: DVD, CD, various video and audio codecs via SPDIF
SA8300HD: Cable HDTV via SPDIF

First thing I tried was the HTPC. DVDs work fine, decodes DD and DTS--including the matrixed formats--just fine. It even reads DVDs with PCM soundtracks. Cable box works perfect, 1080i and 720p were no problem. Blah, blah, time to get to the good stuff...

The PS3 works like gangbusters. There were absolutely no problems with handshaking, HDCP, or using the OSD, even when I switched away from the HDMI input. The PS3 said it supported every audio option (around 15 of them) from 2.0 16-bit/48khz to 7.1 24-bit/192khz. One cool thing about this receiver is that it flashes the bitrate on the receiver display, which is both useful (see below) and totally sweet.

For Blu-ray, it passed 1080p and 5.1 PCM with 0 problems. "Talladega Nights" showed "48khz" on the receiver, so presumably it's a 5.1 16/48 soundtrack. "Kingdom of Heaven" was read as "48khz" as well, and the DTS HD core was passed on as 1.5Mbps 5.1 PCM. Side note: The OSD for the PS3 rocks. You get timecodes, video and audio codecs, plus video and audio bitrates. Awesome. "Marvel: Ultimate Alliance" was read as Dolby Digital, to my surprise. I was unable to test "Resistance" due to some temporary router issues, so I'll have to check in later with that. As mentioned, I couldn't get it to do DPL IIx/DDEX or DTS ES mixing on 5.1 PCM. For SACD, both multi-channel and stereo tracks played flawlessly. I thought the unit couldn't go past 96khz, but I was pleasantly surprised that the receiver said the signal was being passed as 176khz PCM. I'll check again, but I think the signals are displayed as 5.1/7.1 even if they're 5.0 or 4.1 or whatever. It doesn't actually mix the channels, thankfully. I couldn't be sure, but I think the PS3 corrects for the +10 LFE on SACDs.

Playing DVD-A via the 6-channel analog from the Pioneer uni also worked fine, although LFE correction is necessary. Thankfully, speaker size/levels/distance seems to work on both analog and HDMI inputs, although LFE correction only goes to +10.

All in all, a very nice receiver for the cost. I've still got some playing and tweaking to do this weekend, but I'm satisfied so far. I've been hearing that it has the internals of the ES line (the 5200ES to be exact), so I'm hoping it doesn't have the QC issues I've both heard about and experienced with previous Sonys. It's doing almost everything I was hoped, it works with my Harmony remote, and it looks nice too.



fuad

There are issues with the PS3 and XR-57 in regard to CDaudio/SACD playback:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=769373


To be more precise: the issue is that this panasonic receiver doesn't do any processing on the incoming pcm signals from the hdmi input. You have to keep this in mind when choosing this receiver.
If you need processing on lpcm signals look elsewhere.

So, Robert1
what's with your panny receiver?

So, Robert1
what's with your panny receiver?This issue is the Panasonic SA-XR57 doesn't do bass management on LPCM signals. That doesn't matter with some other BD and HD-DVD players with bass management, but the PS3 doesn't offer that capability.

No bass management for HDMI audio on receiver + no bass management on PS3 = :(

So, is the Panny 700 the way to go?

So, is the Panny 700 the way to go?The Panny 700 addresses most of the issues with the XR57, but it still won't apply 7.1 PrologicIIx processing to 5.1 input over LPCM. If you don't have a 7.1 speaker setup, then this shouldn't matter to you. On the other hand, if you do have a 7.1 setup, then you may want to look elsewhere.

The Panny 700 addresses most of the issues with the XR57, but it still won't apply 7.1 PrologicIIx processing to 5.1 input over LPCM. If you don't have a 7.1 speaker setup, then this shouldn't matter to you. On the other hand, if you do have a 7.1 setup, then you may want to look elsewhere.Not only that, Panasonic removed digital output on the 700, so if you have a digital processor (like I do) that uses it, you SOL. Not sure why they made this decision when every other receiver/decoder has at least 1 coax/optical output, but their loss.

That and the other reasons noted are why I have decided to wait for HDMI 1.3 receivers.

This issue is the Panasonic SA-XR57 doesn't do bass management on LPCM signals. That doesn't matter with some other BD and HD-DVD players with bass management, but the PS3 doesn't offer that capability.

No bass management for HDMI audio on receiver + no bass management on PS3 = :(

So what does that mean exactly? I usually never change the bass when I use my XR57. Does this mean that the bass is very low or high?

So what does that mean exactly? I usually never change the bass when I use my XR57. Does this mean that the bass is very low or high?It means you are relying on your front and rears to produce bass in those signals. That's fine if you have large tower speakers with built-in subwoofers, but if you have small satellite speakers, then you are missing much of the bass in those channels, since it isn't redirected to the subwoofer as it would be on other HDMI receivers.

I bought a Denon 2807 a few days before I bought my PS3, and they work together like a charm. I highly recommend this setup.

Honey,
Will the 2807 allow 7.1 LPCM over HDMI?

Who has the best price for the 2807?

Who has the best price for the 2807?
Use Froogle or pricegrabber. Or you can support the advertisers of the AVSF.


fuad

Thanks Write, but was hoping for even better deals than pricegrabber listed.

The XR57 wont pass 1080p. I know, I had one with my PS3. This should be changed to 1080p and PCM over HDMI recievers thread :).

Yep this is the key. Wouldn't recommend an HDMI receiver without being able to pass 1080p.

Will the 2807 allow 7.1 LPCM over HDMI?

I just checked in the owner''s manual. There is no explicit mention that HDMI might only pass through 5.1 or 6.1. I therefore guess that the 2807 allows 7.1 LPCM over HDMI.

You guys do realize Denon announced they'll have a whole line of HDMI 1.3 receivers available by mid 2007?

You guys do realize Denon announced they'll have a whole line of HDMI 1.3 receivers available by mid 2007?

I do realize Denon has announced a new HDMI 1.3 compatible line for mid 2007. If the line will
actually be available at that time remains to be seen. Anyway, I don't think having an HDMI 1.3 receiver will make any difference before quite some time, at least for sources like HD DVD or Blu Ray players (see various threads in the A/V receivers forum).

It will make a significant difference if HDMI 1.3 receivers do processes PLII and offers other features such as bass mgt which appear to be lacking on current receivers. But as you said, it remains to be seen.

I, personally am willing to wait. I have DD640K output now which is a nice improvement and am willing to stick with it a little longer.

I got my Onkyo 604 Friday night. Won't have a PS3 till after the new year, but the difference between it and my old Pioneer VSX-812K in regards to HD-DVD playback is astounding. HDMI audio works like a charm, and I finally have BASS!

Will the Onkyo pass 7.1 LPCM thru HDMI?

I am debating about getting either the Onkyo 674 or 604. I am replacing a Onkyo 600 with it. What do you guys think? 604 or 674?

I am debating about getting either the Onkyo 674 or 604. I am replacing a Onkyo 600 with it. What do you guys think? 604 or 674?There are HDMI dropout issues with the 674, so I would be wary of that receiver.

Will the Onkyo pass 7.1 LPCM thru HDMI?Yes.

There are HDMI dropout issues with the 674, so I would be wary of that receiver.

Yes.Did you end up replacing your Panny XR57 with the Onkyo 604/674? If so, are you happier now with the Onkyo? I'm considering replacing my XR57 with the Onkyo 604 because of the XR57's inability to apply DD EX/PLIIx and BM to LPCM. Plus, I keep getting HDMI errors with the XR57.

Did you end up replacing your Panny XR57 with the Onkyo 604/674? If so, are you happier now with the Onkyo? I'm considering replacing my XR57 with the Onkyo 604 because of the XR57's inability to apply DD EX/PLIIx and BM to LPCM.If I could return the XR57, I probably would. I can't, though, as it is a few months old.

I never intended the XR57 as a long-term solution. I just didn't want to spend $1000-1500 on a new receiver without HDMI 1.3. Once the new HDMI 1.3 receivers are out with improved video processing and room equalization (circa May/June), I'll replace the Panasonic. If you are still within the return period on your XR57, I would swap it for the Onkyo SR604, which can now be had for $349 from Amazon.

So, is the Panny 700 the way to go?

Dont forget it will not output everything thru HDMI, inputs have to have the same output.

Dont forget it will not output everything thru HDMI, inputs have to have the same output.By now, most on this forum should have a remote that makes audio and video switching seamless. Logitech Harmony remotes change the audio and video input on your receiver and the video input on your TV at the same time.

I got my Onkyo 604 Friday night. Won't have a PS3 till after the new year, but the difference between it and my old Pioneer VSX-812K in regards to HD-DVD playback is astounding. HDMI audio works like a charm, and I finally have BASS!

Could you tell us whether this receiver will allow speaker level adjustments, bass management, etc. when using the HDMI multichannel PCM input? We know it won't do DPLIIX processing or any of the DSP modes, but what about simple speaker adjustments? Do the settings for the speakers created by the Audyessy stick for the multichannel PCM? Be sure to check using a multichannel PCM track, not the Dolby Digital track.

If I could return the XR57, I probably would. I can't, though, as it is a few months old.

I never intended the XR57 as a long-term solution. I just didn't want to spend $1000-1500 on a new receiver without HDMI 1.3. Once the new HDMI 1.3 receivers are out with improved video processing and room equalization (circa May/June), I'll replace the Panasonic. If you are still within the return period on your XR57, I would swap it for the Onkyo SR604, which can now be had for $349 from Amazon.I have had my XR57 for 2-1/2 months. I could probably upgrade it to the Panny XR700 or to a Yamaha or Pioneer Elite at the store I purchased it from (I know the manager) but they don't sell Onkyo. SO, like you, I'll probably wait.

It means you are relying on your front and rears to produce bass in those signals. That's fine if you have large tower speakers with built-in subwoofers, but if you have small satellite speakers, then you are missing much of the bass in those channels, since it isn't redirected to the subwoofer as it would be on other HDMI receivers.

Does this mean it would be better to just use the Optical Audio and miss out on the advance codec processing and SACD playback? Or should I just use the HDMI LPCM and hope for the best with my Athena Micra-6 satelite speakers?

Does this mean it would be better to just use the Optical Audio and miss out on the advance codec processing and SACD playback? I think so, since you have mini satellite speakers that aren't able to reproduce the bass from those channels.

It's possible that Sony will add bass management to the PS3 in the future, although I have not heard anything to that effect.

Is there another place that discuses this situation because that kind of defeats the purpose of an HDMI receiver in the first place.

Is there another place that discuses this situation because that kind of defeats the purpose of an HDMI receiver in the first place.Only a few receivers have this limitations -- unfortunately the Panasonic SA-XR57 is one of those.

Several other DVD, HD-DVD, and Blu-ray players have built-in bass management, so they don't exhibit this same issue -- but the PS3 doesn't.

Does this mean it would be better to just use the Optical Audio and miss out on the advance codec processing and SACD playback? Or should I just use the HDMI LPCM and hope for the best with my Athena Micra-6 satelite speakers?

I dont' believe you can have audio out of the optical if HDMI is connected. Can anyone confirm? I'm too lazy :(

Which receiver can:

pass 1080p via HDMI
allow 7.1 LPCM over HDMI? (allow you to matrix 5.1 into 7.1)
no -10 bass issue

At least 100watts per channel?

Will the Only 674 do this? Anyone with this receiver and a PS3? Im leaning towards this receiver over the Onkyo 604 since the 674 upscales ALL inputs over HDMI.

Ok, i need a new reciever.

Which is best...

Onkyo 604
Onkya 674
Sony STR DG 10000
Denon 2807


I got a PS3.

Which receiver can:

pass 1080p via HDMI
allow 7.1 LPCM over HDMI? (allow you to matrix 5.1 into 7.1)
no -10 bass issue

At least 100watts per channel?

I think the 2807 can (I am sure it allows 1080p over HDMI and has no -10 bass issue, and there is no mention in the owner's manual that the receiver does not allow 7.1 LPCM over HDMI; I did not check this last point personally, though).

Ok, i need a new reciever.

Which is best...

Onkyo 604
Onkya 674
Sony STR DG 10000
Denon 2807


I got a PS3.

I got a PS3 recently and got confronted with the same problem as you. I chose the Denon 2807 and am very happy about it.

Of those, the Denon 2807 is best if you don't need 1080p output. The Denon receivers are the best on the market at handling HDMI audio (LPCM), but some owners have reported issues with the 2807 passing 1080p signals.

Keep in mind the 2007 model replacements from the above manufacturers will be announced in less than two weeks.

Of those, the Denon 2807 is best if you don't need 1080p output. The Denon receivers are the best on the market at handling HDMI audio (LPCM), but some owners have reported issues with the 2807 passing 1080p signals.

Keep in mind the 2007 model replacements from the above manufacturers will be announced in less than two weeks.

What about the sony STR DG 1000? it will pass 1080p...any issues with it and the PS3?

I can get the Onkyo 604 for less than $350.....and it will pass 1080p and switch audio in HDMI...

What about the Onkyo TX-SR674B Receiver?

Its about $540 and will upscale everything to HDMI...

It also passes 1080p

Are there any issues with this receiver and the PS3?

What about the sony STR DG 1000? it will pass 1080p...any issues with it and the PS3?AFAIK, Sony receivers do not correctly handle LFE LPCM signals.

What about the Onkyo TX-SR674B Receiver?The 674 exhibits video dropouts with HDMI signals.

I would suggest you read this thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=748147).

So there is NO LFE bass with XR57/PS3 combo via HDMI ( or is it just the -10 db that many other receivers seem to have ) ?

Is it the same for movies , games , etc ?

I have not connected my PS3 to my XR57 via HDMI as of yet (using toslink for now since the HD DVD player is using the HDMI in) but this is upsetting news if true :( .

- Thanks ,
-- Jason

I dont' believe you can have audio out of the optical if HDMI is connected. Can anyone confirm? I'm too lazy :(

No, you can.

So there is NO LFE bass with XR57/PS3 combo via HDMI ( or is it just the -10 db that many other receivers seem to have ) ?

Is it the same for movies , games , etc ?

I have not connected my PS3 to my XR57 via HDMI as of yet (using toslink for now since the HD DVD player is using the HDMI in) but this is upsetting news if true :( .

- Thanks ,
-- Jason

It's not that there's no LFE. It's that with the multichannel PCM input (HDMI), the LFE channel is the only thing that is passed to the subwoofer. The receiver won't send the bass from the other channels to the subwoofer.

This behavior will be different with sources like DD, DTS, optical 2-channel, etc. In those cases the receiver will do bass management and other things.

I have the Onkyo SR-674 and think it's fantastic. I believe it handles LFE well enough and the video dropouts that people seem to be experiencing are from defective units, . I have a PS3 and an HD-DVD player hooked up to it and they work perfectly.

The receiver will passthrough all inputs (upto 1080p) so that you need only one cable out (HDMI), but I do not think it upconverts anything; I say that without checking.

Only disadvantage is that there are only two HDMI inputs, but that seems to be the norm.

Later.

I can confirm that the Denon 2307CI, Denon 2807, and Pioneer Elite VSX-82TSX can all pass 1080p and support LPCM.

My fav out of them was the Pio vsx-82tsx, I had to return it because it was just too big for my TV stand. I then went on to the 2307, which did everything very well, and if you're on a budget is probably your best bet for a receiver...however I had a problem with it and returned it for the 2807 which is basically just a step up from the 2307 and does the same stuff, just a little better. Not too noticeable though.

Oh...the 2307's remote SUCKS. Get a Harmony.

I can confirm that the Denon 2307CI, Denon 2807, and Pioneer Elite VSX-82TSX can all pass 1080p and support LPCM.

My fav out of them was the Pio vsx-82tsx, I had to return it because it was just too big for my TV stand. I then went on to the 2307, which did everything very well, and if you're on a budget is probably your best bet for a receiver...however I had a problem with it and returned it for the 2807 which is basically just a step up from the 2307 and does the same stuff, just a little better. Not too noticeable though.


So the best receivers for the PS3 will be the 2307 or 2807 and the pioneer if you have the space of it in your rack? Stay away from the Sony 1000?

The Denon 2307 $599.99
http://www.etronics.com/product.asp?stk_code=denavr2307ci&store=&catid=4118

hows the yamaha htr-6090?

What about the sony STR DG 1000? it will pass 1080p...any issues with it and the PS3?

I can get the Onkyo 604 for less than $350.....and it will pass 1080p and switch audio in HDMI...

I don't know how many times must I post this post and LINK (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9107902&&#post9107902) but you guys who are asking a lot of questions should go read that link and thread.

So, a box was waiting for me this afternoon, and inside was a nice, shiny Sony STRDG1000. I've played around with it for a while, and here's my take...

Equipment:
PS3: Blu-ray, SACD via HDMI.
Pioneer DV588S: DVD-A, SACD via 6-channel analog
HTPC: DVD, CD, various video and audio codecs via SPDIF
SA8300HD: Cable HDTV via SPDIF

First thing I tried was the HTPC. DVDs work fine, decodes DD and DTS--including the matrixed formats--just fine. It even reads DVDs with PCM soundtracks. Cable box works perfect, 1080i and 720p were no problem. Blah, blah, time to get to the good stuff...

The PS3 works like gangbusters. There were absolutely no problems with handshaking, HDCP, or using the OSD, even when I switched away from the HDMI input. The PS3 said it supported every audio option (around 15 of them) from 2.0 16-bit/48khz to 7.1 24-bit/192khz. One cool thing about this receiver is that it flashes the bitrate on the receiver display, which is both useful (see below) and totally sweet.

For Blu-ray, it passed 1080p and 5.1 PCM with 0 problems. "Talladega Nights" showed "48khz" on the receiver, so presumably it's a 5.1 16/48 soundtrack. "Kingdom of Heaven" was read as "48khz" as well, and the DTS HD core was passed on as 1.5Mbps 5.1 PCM. Side note: The OSD for the PS3 rocks. You get timecodes, video and audio codecs, plus video and audio bitrates. Awesome. "Marvel: Ultimate Alliance" was read as Dolby Digital, to my surprise. I was unable to test "Resistance" due to some temporary router issues, so I'll have to check in later with that. As mentioned, I couldn't get it to do DPL IIx/DDEX or DTS ES mixing on 5.1 PCM. For SACD, both multi-channel and stereo tracks played flawlessly. I thought the unit couldn't go past 96khz, but I was pleasantly surprised that the receiver said the signal was being passed as 176khz PCM. I'll check again, but I think the signals are displayed as 5.1/7.1 even if they're 5.0 or 4.1 or whatever. It doesn't actually mix the channels, thankfully. I couldn't be sure, but I think the PS3 corrects for the +10 LFE on SACDs.

Playing DVD-A via the 6-channel analog from the Pioneer uni also worked fine, although LFE correction is necessary. Thankfully, speaker size/levels/distance seems to work on both analog and HDMI inputs, although LFE correction only goes to +10.

All in all, a very nice receiver for the cost. I've still got some playing and tweaking to do this weekend, but I'm satisfied so far. I've been hearing that it has the internals of the ES line (the 5200ES to be exact), so I'm hoping it doesn't have the QC issues I've both heard about and experienced with previous Sonys. It's doing almost everything I was hoped, it works with my Harmony remote, and it looks nice too.


fuad

Doesn't HDMI transmit PCM over HDMI by default? If so, you'd still be getting an uncompressed audio stream (PCM) without the need for any additional hardware. You'd just need a PS3 and an HDTV directly connected to each other via HDMI, right?

Earz,

Wait a second! Everyone else is saying no 7.1 LPCM over HDMI, only 5.1

Are you sure?

So the best receivers for the PS3 will be the 2307 or 2807 and the pioneer if you have the space of it in your rack? Stay away from the Sony 1000?
Dont buy anything until after CES

Ok, on page 31 of the owners manual for the 604, it says multichannel PCM 5.1 ONLY!

Sorry, for me and the PS3, I need 7.1 LPCM

Earz,

Wait a second! Everyone else is saying no 7.1 LPCM over HDMI, only 5.1

Are you sure?

No...I am wrong...it was in all channel syereo mode....and I didn't realise that modes were allowed using PCM :o
I had just got it hooked up....and when I let the PS3 choose the audio modes automatically...7.1 was listed....opp's

Mines probably going back to be replaced by the Pany 700 as a stop gap instead.

Ok, on page 31 of the owners manual for the 604, it says multichannel PCM 5.1 ONLY!

Sorry, for me and the PS3, I need 7.1 LPCM

Searched for this info yesterday....and could not find it...although many had asked in the receiver section.

Yes, on page 31 of the manual, it says multichannel linear PCM 5.1, doesn't mention 7.1 anywhere

I think so, since you have mini satellite speakers that aren't able to reproduce the bass from those channels.

It's possible that Sony will add bass management to the PS3 in the future, although I have not heard anything to that effect. Actually, most satellite speaker systems that needed amplification by a receiver will first accept all 5.1 (or 6.1/7.1) audio into the subwoofer unit. The subwoofer will do the crossover cut-off and pass the rest of the audio signals to the satellites.

The only problem is that if the bass or .1 signal off the receiver is too low via the HDMI passthrough, your compensation on the subwoofer unit will affect normal Dolby Digital and DTS audio decoding, where the bass will then be overpowering/boomy.


fuad

I just recently bought a Pioneer Elite 81TX after I picked up my PS3. It is an excellent receiver. It will process 7.1 LPCM via HDMI, pass 1080p, and does not have any issues with PCM LFE (at least on my PS3, my Toshiba HD is another story). It evens has iPod connectivity. Plus, the auto setup is fantastic!

I am thinking about upgrading my receiver too.

I own a Yamaha RX-V1400.

I want something that is at least 110x7, HDMI, and 1080p pass through.

What would you recommend?

The Yamahas have the -10 issue so my guess is it will not be another Yamaha.

I appreciate the recommendations and would like to keep price under $750.

Thanks!

If you like Yamaha, the new 1700 is HDMI 1.2 (pass 1080p), Pass upto 7.1 Channel in MLPCM via HDMI up 24bit/192khz, has PLIIx Filter enable on HDMI PCM so that you can get you're 2 back surround to work with a 5.1 source, has EX/ES filter for HDMI PCM too.. all around great.

Could someone answer one question I have about the Onkyo 604, Can it send all video through the HDMI out? I dont care about upconversion, just pass through of all video.

I currently have the Panasonic SA XR-55, and I love it. It works great. Of course, I would love to get a HDMI 1.3 version of it. I guess I'll have to wait for CES. I've decided I'm not going to upgrade my receiver till I can get one with HDMI 1.3. I also want several HDMI inputs, (hopefully 3 of them). I'm definitely hoping that Panasonic comes out with something very similar to the XR-55, except with HDMI 1.3 support and still keeps the price low.

Earz,

Wait a second! Everyone else is saying no 7.1 LPCM over HDMI, only 5.1

Are you sure?

I picked up the Sony STRDG1000 last week to compliment my new PS3 and was able to get 7.1 PCM from The Descent Blu-Ray.

You may have have to set the PS3 to PCM and not Bitstream.

I have been very happy with the Sony, don't let anyone put you off on it until you read all the reviews.

If Sony ever updates the PS3 to pass DTS-HD as LPCM, I consider myself future proof (for at least the next few years ;))

I just bought a Marantz 4001 relatively cheaply in Hong Kong (2850hkd = 365) which passes uncompressed PCM through HDMI. BHD sounds incredible....so much better than regular DD. Worth the upgrade to BR just for the improvement in sound. (previously used denon 3801). Not sure about 1080p, since I'm still using component to my older Sony 36" CRT (1080i max).

Can anyone confirm whether the 4001 can pass 1080p in case I upgrade my tv in 6-9 months?
yea i got my ps3 goin to a marantz 4001 and it passes 1080p.

What is the most afforable HDMI receiver that will do LPCM 5.1 (or 6.1 or 7.1)correctly and 1080p?

Could someone explain the Panasonic XR-57and the bass issue? I like the price of this reciever. I only want to watch BR movies and want this for audio. Also, is this correct: the PS3 send all DD, DTS, DDTrue hd, and (soon) DTS-HD via hdmi as LPCM?

I believe that is just too much information to pass through optical...but I've been wrong before!

It is definitely not too much information to pass through optical, in the professional recording world there is a standard called ADAT Lightpipe which sends 8 full discrete uncompressed channels of 24-bit/44.1Khz audio over one TOSLINK optical cable. There are no consumer audio receivers with the capability to accept a lightpipe signal though. The only signals a consumer audio receivers are able to receive through an optical cable are Dolby Digital, DTS and 2-channel S/PDIF PCM. It's standards in audio receivers that make it impossible for 3+ channel uncompressed PCM to be sent over an optical cable. No receivers can read it.

Could someone explain the Panasonic XR-57and the bass issue? I like the price of this reciever. I only want to watch BR movies and want this for audio. Also, is this correct: the PS3 send all DD, DTS, DDTrue hd, and (soon) DTS-HD via hdmi as LPCM?

You are correct about what the PS3 can decode and send as PCM.

JVC RX-D402B - Great, affordable amp with HDMI switching.

Gang,

To those with a Sony STR-DG 1000, 3200ES, or 5200ES

Im willing to bet you will get no LPCM over HDMI (assuming you have a blu ray player or PS3 connected to your receiver) when the receiver is connected to a TV with a HDMI- DVI cable. My 5200ES wouldnt do this so it went back. I know DVI doesnt carry audio but the blu ray player or PS3 should be able to output LPCM over the HDMI connection to the receiver. My Marantz 7001 can.

My only concern is if the 1700 has the LFE issue.

If it does not, I am buying it. It has everything else.

My only concern is if the 1700 has the LFE issue.

If it does not, I am buying it. It has everything else.

The Denon 2307CI has a tad overall better sound and doesn't have any LFE issues. It's an awesome reciver, I couldn't be happier. 1700 is not a bad receiver at all, but Denon gets a slight edge in the sound department.

I have the Panny SA-XR70, not 700, this unit does not apply bass management or processing to HDMI other than level adjustments, then the video goes HDMI from the Panny to display. I have the Tosh HD-A1 and a PS3, along with the 360 add on. The unit does not pass through 1080p, not an issue for me, on the PS3, I have it set to pcm so no bass management or delay is introduced, also decodes my dts and dd internally, The sound is absolutely incredible, no lfe issue, but I could boost as much as I need to up to 30 on receiver (I leave it at 5). I also I have full size Polk towers R50's and R30's and do not have any abnormally low audio coming from them, either natural low end roll off or movie encoding on those channels. Either way I see no problems with the lpcm decoded audio going to my mains and causing any distortion. I also find my lfe to be cleaner since it only receiving what was intended for the lfe channel. My room is of medium size so lack of delay adjustments is not an issue. On the Tosh, I have bass management and delay all done internally in the player passing pcm to the Panny. The 360 add on is good with Dolby True HD, but has the DD+ issue, sounds good, but not as good as true uncompressed sound from either hi def format, also sacd never sounded so good when you can go digital into a digital receiver. I would recommend the Panny over the Onkyo based on sound quality and performance, it is very feature poor, but I can overlook those shortcoming for an all digital sound path and sound that I receive. You might want to wait for what they have to say about the new Panny SA-XR707, or buy the 700 for all your 1080p and bass management needs.

Does the Denon have problems converting 5.1 PCM to 7.1?

Denon 2307CI

Will it pass 1080p ok?

Hmm...maybe I should look into it.

Thanks.

Does the Denon have problems converting 5.1 PCM to 7.1?

Denon 2307CI

Will it pass 1080p ok?

Hmm...maybe I should look into it.

Thanks.

I haven't had much time to play with it, so I don't know of any problems converting 5.1 PCM to 7.1. I didn't even look into it and don't even know if it can do it :). As far as 1080p goes, I don't see any problems with that either. I had an Onkyo 604 for about 2 weeks and exchanged it for the Denon, the onkyo sounded distorted at mid-higer volumes. The Denon doesn't.

I'm a noob with home audio stuff. I was under the impression audio via HDMI was not the best and only two channel with the PS3?? I'm using optical connection now and it sounds great. What would I notice as an improvement making the switch?

I'm a noob with home audio stuff. I was under the impression audio via HDMI was not the best and only two channel with the PS3?? I'm using optical connection now and it sounds great. What would I notice as an improvement making the switch?

You won't notice much difference in Resistance, other than 2 more speakers behind you. But in movies that are PCM you will notice the biggest difference.
Only 2 channel through HDMI on the PS3 ?? hmmm, i wonder why you thought that.

So it looks like the Onkyo 604 ($369.99 at amazon) is the best deal for the money? It does everything we need except it is only 5.1 right?

The Sony STRDG1000 sounds great but it costs $654.03 at amazon.

I'm thinking Onkyo. Am I missing anything important here? Anyone get a 7.1 system for less or about the same as the Onkyo?

Woah, what about this one? It's 7.1 and is only $399.29:

Onkyo TX-SR604S
http://www.amazon.com/Onkyo-TX-SR604S-7-1-Channel-Receiver/dp/B000HEFJNM/sr=1-2/qid=1168553791/ref=pd_bbs_2/103-0270073-6656653?ie=UTF8&s=electronics

I would get the 674 if I were you.

I am going with the Yamaha 1700.

It looks to have everything I need and can be found for about $800.

For those that do not require 1080p pass thru (1080i or 720p displays) and have larger Mains the XR57 is tough to beat for sound quality (especially under $500) . I owned a $500 Denon when I first purchased the XR57 and the Denon ended up getting sold ;) . While there is no BM with PCM over HDMI you can adjust for the -10db LFE as the XR57 has a 0db to +20db subwoofer adjustment that works for any input . Certainly not saying it is THE best choice for everyone as it has its limitations but it cannot be beat regarding SQ for the price IMO .

Just wanted to add that in since I would hate to think some are spending more than they want for features that they may not need or even use ;) . All the features that I want in my next receiver would currently run me about $1000 so I am holding out for at least another year before upgrading .

- Best Wishes ,
----- Jason

Im looking into the denon 2807, heard good things about it. Plus I am starting to care less and less about HDMI 1.3

I ordered the XR57 from walmart.com. $300 is hard to beat. I only have a 1080i screen now anyway and if I understand the technology correctly, once I get a 1080p the set will just interlace the lines anyway.

I ordered the XR57 from walmart.com. $300 is hard to beat. I only have a 1080i screen now anyway and if I understand the technology correctly, once I get a 1080p the set will just interlace the lines anyway.

You don't mind that you can't change the speaker levels and apply bass management and time adjustment to the audio channels when using LPCM? I guess it would work for people who have large, identical speakers which are all equidistant from the listening position, but I'd at least like to know I could adjust levels if I needed.

You don't mind that you can't change the speaker levels and apply bass management and time adjustment to the audio channels when using LPCM? I guess it would work for people who have large, identical speakers which are all equidistant from the listening position, but I'd at least like to know I could adjust levels if I needed.

According to DaGamePimp, you can adjust the levels.

I'm not familiar with the term "time management", is that applying an echo effect or something? I'm not interested in that.

I'm not familiar with the term "time management", is that applying an echo effect or something? I'm not interested in that.

No, it's adding a delay to speakers that are closer than others so the sound reaches your ears at the same time.

The manual I looked at says this on page 18: Speaker settings (á pages 14 and 31) are canceled
when the unit receives a DVD-Audio multi-channel
signal through the HDMI input terminal. Set distances
from the listening-viewing position and speaker sizes
on your DVD recorder or DVD player in such cases.

Im looking into the denon 2807, heard good things about it. Plus I am starting to care less and less about HDMI 1.3

I thought one of the things HDMI 1.3 was able to do was to synch the audio and video so that there is no delay between the two. (which bugs the heck out of me!)

Does anyone have more info on this?

Yeah what exactly are the advantages of 1.3 anyway? Deep Color, whatever that means, and I thought it was necessary for the new codecs, but since we're getting them anyway I guess not.

No, it's adding a delay to speakers that are closer than others so the sound reaches your ears at the same time.

The manual I looked at says this on page 18:

I gotta admit that sounds interesting, but I live in an apartment so they aren't that far away anyway. Maybe next time.

ah ha. a little searching and found this:

Q: Why is lip sync important?
In a DTV, typically the video processing takes more time than the audio. As a result, lip sync can become an issue where it’s noticeable to the viewer, creating an effect similar to that of a badly-dubbed movie. HDMI 1.3 provides a method whereby the audio processing times in devices can be automatically adjusted to remove lip sync.

Taken from the HDMI website: http://www.hdmi.org/resourcecenter/hdmi_1_3_faq.asp#q9

So I guess I'll wait for receivers with HDMI 1.3. Where any announced at CES for reasonable prices?

I've seen this a couple of times with OTA HD, but it's pretty rare in my experience. I've certainly nevcer seen it with BD or HD DVD.

Yea only time i've ever seen a audio sync problem is on DISH Network and I believe that's a known DISH problem.

I gotta admit that sounds interesting, but I live in an apartment so they aren't that far away anyway. Maybe next time.

The point is to correct for certain speakers being closer to you than others. Often the surround speakers are closer than the front speakers. So, if your surrounds are 6 feet away but your front speakers are 10 feet away, the adjustment will delay the sound from the surrounds so that all sounds hit your ear at the same time. Your ear tends to localize a sound in the direction from which it came first, so you don't want sounds imaged in multiple speakers to be localized from the closer speaker. This feature has been around since the days of Dolby Pro Logic, although IIRC it only adjusted for the surrounds vs. the fronts rather than all speakers.

If you have your speakers arranged in a circle so that each is the same distance from you, you won't need this feature.

The point is to correct for certain speakers being closer to you than others. Often the surround speakers are closer than the front speakers. So, if your surrounds are 6 feet away but your front speakers are 10 feet away, the adjustment will delay the sound from the surrounds so that all sounds hit your ear at the same time. Your ear tends to localize a sound in the direction from which it came first, so you don't want sounds imaged in multiple speakers to be localized from the closer speaker. This feature has been around since the days of Dolby Pro Logic, although IIRC it only adjusted for the surrounds vs. the fronts rather than all speakers.

If you have your speakers arranged in a circle so that each is the same distance from you, you won't need this feature.

You can input the distance of each speaker in the HD-A1's setup menu, does that do the same thing?

You can input the distance of each speaker in the HD-A1's setup menu, does that do the same thing?

That's only if you have it hooked up through ANALOG connection.

All,

I guess my question is a little different from the rest of the folks. I have HUGE sums already invested in some very decent amplification and hence have no need to buy a receiver. Unfortunately every manufacturer is offering an A/V receiver with HDMI but NO PRE-AMPS with 1080p HDMI and 1.2+ specs!!!!

So here goes my question -

I need an inexpensive HDMI 1.2 compatible receiver/pre-amp that can do 1080p signal pass as well as offer an option to have 7.1 pre-outs that can be utilized with my amplification gear.

Searching for this information is very limited since not a lot of companies offer a 1080p receiver and those that do - do not have a good enough specs or images of the back-side.

Thanks!

^-- Denon 2807? Not sure what price range you are looking for, but I think that matches your qualifications so far. (Hum, no it says 1.1 HDMI... what does 1.2 give you over 1.1?)

^-- Denon 2807? Not sure what price range you are looking for, but I think that matches your qualifications so far. (Hum, no it says 1.1 HDMI... what does 1.2 give you over 1.1?)

AFAIK 1080p output via HDMI.

AFAIK 1080p output via HDMI.

CORRECTION - I just read the specs of 2807 and it does say 1080p switching so I guess even 1.1 does 1080p. :D

I believe that is just too much information to pass through optical...but I've been wrong before!

ADAT digital audio recording machines send and receive 8 channels of 20-bit/48khz uncompressed PCM audio over an optical cable. The standard is called ADAT lightpipe and is used by lots of pro audio gear to send and receive 8 channels of digital audio with one cable.

ah ha. a little searching and found this:

Q: Why is lip sync important?
In a DTV, typically the video processing takes more time than the audio. As a result, lip sync can become an issue where it’s noticeable to the viewer, creating an effect similar to that of a badly-dubbed movie. HDMI 1.3 provides a method whereby the audio processing times in devices can be automatically adjusted to remove lip sync.

HDMI 1.3 allows you to REMOVE LIP SYNC??? I'M ON BOARD YEEEEE HAW!!!

Who the hell wants people's lips synched with what they're saying anyways. I say REMOVE IT ALL!!

HDMI 1.3 allows you to REMOVE LIP SYNC??? I'M ON BOARD YEEEEE HAW!!!

Who the hell wants people's lips synched with what they're saying anyways. I say REMOVE IT ALL!!

Refers to it being out of sync.

what version of HDMI has to be supported for sacd passthrough from the PS3 and MLP DVD-a from a universal player?

I guess the first post needs updating. Is there an amp that can be used with the PS3 that allows playback of TrueHD, DTSHD-MA, UPCM, SACD and 1080p? What about for those of us "on a budget"?

I guess the first post needs updating. Is there an amp that can be used with the PS3 that allows playback of TrueHD, DTSHD-MA, UPCM, SACD and 1080p? What about for those of us "on a budget"?

Yup, please keep us updated.

Right now I have an onkyo 510 and my speakers are athena .5 series, so do you think that I would hear a significant difference if I upgraded to an amp that plays PCM and TrueHD??

I guess the first post needs updating. Is there an amp that can be used with the PS3 that allows playback of TrueHD, DTSHD-MA, UPCM, SACD and 1080p? What about for those of us "on a budget"?

Define "on a budget".

I'm fairly set on the Onkyo 674, but I'd appreciate an answer to whether it applies general speaker settings to audio over HDMI (audessey calibration etc). Don't mind if it doesn't do PLII from HDMI, as I only have a 5.1 setup and don't plan on getting 7.1 anytime soon as my room isn't that large

i was going to get the denon 3806 but now im not sure. i want to get full 7.1 LPCM and it looks like some receivers only due 5.1. does anybody know if this receiver will accept the full 7.1 lossless signal from HDMI? it has version 1.1 of hdmi.

any info is appreciated.

From what I can tell the Denon 3806 only accepts 5.1.. the 2807 should accept 7.1. They are about the same cost and feature set.
I have the 3806 but my rooom + WAF will not currently allow me to hook up 7.1 anyway. ;)

A useful thread http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=738511
on LPCM on various receivers.

HDMI 1.3

What, if any, are the benefits to an HDMI 1.3 receiver when using a PS3?

I've read that 1.3 will have twice the bandwidth and potentially better color so I guess if you have a 1.3 display and you want the receiver to pass it...

Is that it?


(I posted this on another thread, but this one seems to be much more currently viewed.)

Thanks

From what I can tell the Denon 3806 only accepts 5.1.. the 2807 should accept 7.1. They are about the same cost and feature set.
I have the 3806 but my rooom + WAF will not currently allow me to hook up 7.1 anyway. ;)

seems strange that a lower end model would allow this but the 3806 would not. did you get your info from the manual?

HDMI 1.3

What, if any, are the benefits to an HDMI 1.3 receiver when using a PS3?

I've read that 1.3 will have twice the bandwidth and potentially better color so I guess if you have a 1.3 display and you want the receiver to pass it...

Is that it?


(I posted this on another thread, but this one seems to be much more currently viewed.)

Thanks

You can pass bitstream audio to the HDMI 1.3 receiver to decode Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD MA audio and may also do additional audio processing.

You can pass bitstream audio to the HDMI 1.3 receiver to decode Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD MA audio and may also do additional audio processing.

So I guess that's good if the disc doesn't support PCM?

Define "on a budget".

Ask the OP!

Put it this way, I spent $500 on my PS3, I don't really want to spend a great deal on getting a sound setup if I even bother. What's the cheapest (acceptable) system that matches that spec?

Ask the OP!

Put it this way, I spent $500 on my PS3, I don't really want to spend a great deal on getting a sound setup if I even bother. What's the cheapest (acceptable) system that matches that spec?


from the looks of it, if your wanting lossless audio, probably at least 500 for the receiver, give or take a little. plus the speakers, as cheap speakers will definately not sound all that great even with a good receiver.

if you just want surround sound, just get a HTIB with optical input. you can get these for a little over 100 bucks. although, i wouldnt recommend this as these really do not sound that great. i would say just put together a nice system piece by piece, starting with the receiver capable of lossless pcm. but hey, its your money.

Thanks Chartwel. The reciever on the first page is $250 with lossless audio. However it doesn't do 1080p passthrough.

Seriously, someone needs to do an "audio for dummies" book or a decent FAQ. The whole thing is way too complex, god knows what J6p would think!

Maybe if you guys read this http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=738511 you will understand more.

yeah it is very confusing.

side note. i called denon and talked to the customer service rep and was told that the avr3806 WILL accept lossless 7.1 pcm, not just 5.1. looks like thats the one i will be getting next.

h9k, i read that thread. i know everything in it. im just looking for the right receiver................

H9k, that thread just confuses me more. It seems to be aimed at people who know what they're talking about already, it doesn't explain much at all!

Well owners of the 3806 will tend to disagree with what Denon claims. There is a thread on it, but it is too early for me to search for it. :)
The 2807 is a newer model (the last digit).

OK, found this (was not the thread I was looking for but...) on the 3806:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9550443&highlight=3806#post9550443

thanks for the info. i wanted the 3806 because numerous reviews stated that it had better audio quality (which is important to me), however so is 7.1 LPCM.

looks like it will be the 2807 for me...................

One thing I've noticed is how small speakers have gotten. I'm still using Jensen tower speakers with 14" woofers that I bought 20 years ago. Speakers like this today seem rare.

This was before woofers were seperate. Now it apears as though most front speakers have rather small (8"-10") woofers and you are expected to buy a large woofer to suppliment them. Speakers in general seem to be much more expensive now as well. My Jensens were $135 for the pair and they sound awesome.

That is probably because they want to match timber of all the surround system speakers with a center channel speaker which usually needs to be size constrained to go above or below a tv. A center channel speaker with a 14" woofer would kind of be a bitch in most case. ;)

I updated the main post with more "newbie-friendly" info. I haven't been checking this thread at all, but I noticed a lot of valuable info is here.

Here are some suggestions that people on this forum have endorsed. Keep in mind that some of these receivers can only accept/output a 1080i signal. So be aware if you have a 1080p display. You can google search these receivers for more information.

$600 and under.

- Sony STR-DG1000
- Denon 2307 CI.
- Onkyo SR604
- Onkyo SR674
- Yamaha V1600 (last year's model. Might get a good deal)

$600 - $1000

- Sony STR-DA3200ES
- Yamaha V1700
- Denon 2807
- Denon 3806

From the above receivers, can any of them apply PLIIx to an HDMI input?

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-P8gAMPtiJsf/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?search=Sony+STR%2DDG800&i=158STDG800
Saw this on sale for $315.

» 100 watts x 7 into 8 ohms (20-20,000Hz) at 0.09% THD
» Dolby® Digital EX, DTS-ES®, DTS Neo:6, and Dolby Pro Logic® IIx, and Digital Cinema Sound processing
» HDMI digital video switching (2 in, 1 out) — pass-through only for audio and video signals; receiver cannot play audio signals input via HDMI
» HDMI version 1.1
» XM Satellite Radio Ready (requires XM subscription and optional XM Mini-Tuner package)
» Digital Cinema Auto Calibration
» dual-room/dual-source audio (fixed line-level stereo output for 2nd room)
» multibrand remote
» A/V Sync helps align out-of-sync audio and video for digital sources
» analog direct mode
» component video conversion
» component video switching (2 in, 1 out, 80MHz bandwidth)
» 7.1-channel analog input for connecting an SACD or DVD-Audio player
» digital inputs: 4 optical (including 1 front-panel), 2 coaxial
» optical digital output
» 3 audio inputs (including phono)
» 5 A/V inputs (including 3 S-video and 1 front-panel)
» 30 AM/30 FM presets
» 2 sets of main speaker outputs

» HDMI digital video switching (2 in, 1 out) — pass-through only for audio and video signals; receiver cannot play audio signals input via HDMI


Thank you, but I think people should read this carefully before they buy.

[QUOTE=OniKoroshi]http://www.crutchfield.com/S-P8gAMPtiJsf/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?search=Sony+STR%2DDG800&i=158STDG800
Saw this on sale for $315.

It does not decode HDMI audio input.

eight, thanks for the update, it makes things a little clear.

If you have a TrueHD disc can you send the audio to any HDMI reciever? Is that true with uncompressed audio too? What setting do you need to use on the PS3? PCM or Bitstream?

I take it no DTS-MA receivers have arrived. It's possible that the PS3 will decode this after a firmware update. If not would you have to connect to a suitable receiver and select "bitstream"?

Do all HDMI 1.2 receivers decode SACD? or does it have to specifically say so in the specs?

All sub $600 receivers listed do pass 1080p so I assume the 1080i one(s) are in the more expensive group?

eight, thanks for the update, it makes things a little clear.

If you have a TrueHD disc can you send the audio to any HDMI reciever? Is that true with uncompressed audio too? What setting do you need to use on the PS3? PCM or Bitstream?

I take it no DTS-MA receivers have arrived. It's possible that the PS3 will decode this after a firmware update. If not would you have to connect to a suitable receiver and select "bitstream"?

Do all HDMI 1.2 receivers decode SACD? or does it have to specifically say so in the specs?

All sub $600 receivers listed do pass 1080p so I assume the 1080i one(s) are in the more expensive group?

if a receiver passes 1080p then it will pass 1080i.

I take it no DTS-MA receivers have arrived. It's possible that the PS3 will decode this after a firmware update.

That's the rumor. If this is indeed in the plans, I don't know why Sony doesn't make a statement about it. I am holding off buying a ps3 until then and there must be others out there like me....

if a receiver passes 1080p then it will pass 1080i.

Clearly! I was talking about ones that are 1080i max

eight, thanks for the update, it makes things a little clear.

If you have a TrueHD disc can you send the audio to any HDMI reciever? You can send both the raw bitstream audio or the converted-to-PCM audio over HDMI; this applies to Dolby TrueHD and DTS HDMA.

Is that true with uncompressed audio too? True with LPCM, yes.

What setting do you need to use on the PS3? PCM or Bitstream?
PCM.

I take it no DTS-MA receivers have arrived. It's possible that the PS3 will decode this after a firmware update. No Dolby TrueHD nor DTS HDMA is available. Hopefully the March firmware will get the PS3 to decode DTS HDMA.

If not would you have to connect to a suitable receiver and select "bitstream"? If the receiver has the decoding capability, yes.

Do all HDMI 1.2 receivers decode SACD? or does it have to specifically say so in the specs? It's not really about the HDMI version. The version only states that the HDMI CAN carry raw DST bitstream (DSD in lossless compressed form). So far no receivers can decode DST.

Using the PS3, you can listen to multichannel SACD via HDMI.

All sub $600 receivers listed do pass 1080p so I assume the 1080i one(s) are in the more expensive group? Should be the other way around. If a receiver can pass through 1080p it definitely can pass through 1080i and whatever else it receives.


fuad

Should be the other way around. If a receiver can pass through 1080p it definitely can pass through 1080i and whatever else it receives.

I realise that. Eightunited was saying that some of them are 1080i only and I checked and all the sub-$600 were 1080p. Therefore the 1080i only ones must be in the other group

Its not too expensive, but the Yamaha RXV1700 is an amazing reciever for the price.... I love this thing. I reccomend it, it can pass 1080p and handle TrueHD and Lossless MPCM via HDMI.. sent Linear PCM ofcourse from the player doing the decoding... hehe.. no need for HDMI 1.3 here folks.

Hey guys, new here, and I have a quick question to this as it describes the situation I'm kinda in...

I'm waiting for the new 1.3HDMI units to hit, preferably Denon, but my current rig died on me the other day and I really need to replace it with something quick, and that I could just transport to another section of the house, say family room when I'm done with it...

I don't want to spend a high bank on something at this moment, so I was thinking about a quick HTiB rig... Can anyone tell me if this unit would support Uncompressed PCM? I don't need 7.1 at this time, just something that will sound nice, and I could hook up to the girlfriend's tv in the family room when I get my 7.1 Denon rig... Anyways, here it is...

Onkyo 5.1-Channel Home Theater System (HTS894)

I was running an older HTiB set-up, so I don't have any true seperate speakers at this time to just grab a new receiver and slap the old speakers on... as I don't think they'd appreciate it most likely :)

Quick responses would help, really want to go pick this up today if good... have some store credit there that I want to burn up :)

Thanks in advance!

No, there isn't a single HTiB setup right now that will process uncompressed PCM.

I realise that. Eightunited was saying that some of them are 1080i only and I checked and all the sub-$600 were 1080p. Therefore the 1080i only ones must be in the other group If you can, try it out in a store with your PS3/BD player. Make sure you can see the TV's display on the input it receives. That would be the clearest indication that the receiver can pass 1080p; if of course the display is 1080p already. :cool:


fuad

No, there isn't a single HTiB setup right now that will process uncompressed PCM.

Bah! Thanks... Looks like I need to try and assemble something that'll do the trick for a reasonable price then with all seperate components... :(

I dunno if I could assemble a decent rig with a $800 budget though... 5.1 would be fine...

I realise that. Eightunited was saying that some of them are 1080i only and I checked and all the sub-$600 were 1080p. Therefore the 1080i only ones must be in the other group

That's incorrect. The Yamaha V1600/2600 will not output a 1080p signal. So if you have a 1080p display I'd avoid these for newer receivers.

Hi,

I have been following this and other forums for a little bit now but I am a little confused as to what to buy.

I am looking for a receiver that can do uncompressed 5.1 for my PS3 and can still handle (and sound good with) the regular optical cable audio for my Xbox 360. My Panasonic Plasma TV can only handle 1080i so the receiver doesn't need to do more than that but if it does that's fine.

I'm trying not to spend a lot and it doesn't have to last me forever, just the next 2 to 3 years.

The best I can figure on for my needs would be the Onkyo 604. Will this receiver work for my PS3 and Xbox 360? Also, are there any problems with the 1080p signal coming through as 1080i or will it handle it like the Blu-Ray movies do, i.e.; running 1080p movies in 1080i?

Thanks for the help!

Hi,

I have been following this and other forums for a little bit now but I am a little confused as to what to buy.

I am looking for a receiver that can do uncompressed 5.1 for my PS3 and can still handle (and sound good with) the regular optical cable audio for my Xbox 360. My Panasonic Plasma TV can only handle 1080i so the receiver doesn't need to do more than that but if it does that's fine.

I'm trying not to spend a lot and it doesn't have to last me forever, just the next 2 to 3 years.

The best I can figure on for my needs would be the Onkyo 604. Will this receiver work for my PS3 and Xbox 360? Also, are there any problems with the 1080p signal coming through as 1080i or will it handle it like the Blu-Ray movies do, i.e.; running 1080p movies in 1080i?

Thanks for the help!

The 604 absolutely does 1080p and 5.1 PCM via HDMI from the PS3.

When you guys say "pass 1080p," do you mean upscale 1080i to 1080p?

If not, are there any HDMI receivers that will take a 1080i source and upscale to 1080p?

Thanks in advance!

Can any of you here help us out by answering this elusive question about the Onkyo receiver?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=795545

When you guys say "pass 1080p," do you mean upscale 1080i to 1080p?

If not, are there any HDMI receivers that will take a 1080i source and upscale to 1080p?
"pass 1080p" means pass a 1080p signal cleanly from the source (PS3 or a BD player) to the 1080p HDTV.

There are some receivers that pass through 1080p that can upscale video signals to 1080p. I'm not sure if they can upscale 1080i to 1080p though.


fuad

Just picked up the Pioneer VSX-81TXV. This is a great receiver. Kicks out some of the best sound I've heard in a receiver. 2xHDMI (1.2) inputs with one out 1080p,i, etc., 7.1 PCM capable receiver. Listened to Tears of the Sun with the 5.1 PCM track. Wow!

The PS3 could also output SA-CD multi-channel via 192 kHz at some point. What will these processors do at that point? An unknown.
One safe way around this is to get a receiver with HDMI 1.2, then you'll be able to send the 1bit 2,822kHz DSD signal directly to the receiver and avoid a PCM conversion altogether. Probably won't find a receiver like this for under $600 though.

"pass 1080p" means pass a 1080p signal cleanly from the source (PS3 or a BD player) to the 1080p HDTV.

There are some receivers that pass through 1080p that can upscale video signals to 1080p. I'm not sure if they can upscale 1080i to 1080p though.


fuad


Thanks for the reply. Is there anyone here who knows if there are any receivers that will take, for example, the 1080i output of the A2-HD HD-DVD player and upscale it to 1080p before it reaches my display?

One safe way around this is to get a receiver with HDMI 1.2, then you'll be able to send the 1bit 2,822kHz DSD signal directly to the receiver and avoid a PCM conversion altogether. Probably won't find a receiver like this for under $600 though.

Panasonic SA-XR 700 is 1.2A...and on sale at Vanns.

People are recommending the Onkyo 604 and 674, but how can you use them with your power amps? I cant see any 5.1 or 7.1 pre-out.

If there is no preouts, then you can't, you are confined to the power of the receiver.

You can't, which is the main reason I bought the Denon 2307CI. It's a little more money, but more features and a full 7.1 pre-out which was the main selling point for me.

You can pass bitstream audio to the HDMI 1.3 receiver to decode Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD MA audio and may also do additional audio processing.

And why is that better than doing it in the player? I've been asking this everytime somebody bring it up, and have yet to get a good answer.

(I am someone who thinks that 1.3 is a spec conceived to sell more gear, and doesn't offer any real world benefits as far as HD-DVD/BR is concerned.)

Decoding to PCM is the easy part.. it's what you do with it after thats important.

Just picked up the Pioneer VSX-81TXV. This is a great receiver. Kicks out some of the best sound I've heard in a receiver. 2xHDMI (1.2) inputs with one out 1080p,i, etc., 7.1 PCM capable receiver. Listened to Tears of the Sun with the 5.1 PCM track. Wow!

Sweet, HP! I'm holding out for one myself.

Have they fixed the LFE bug yet?

How bout lossless audio from the Multi AV output on the PS3? Think about it. Most people here are using HDMI to their TV. This frees up the Multi AV out port on the PS3. There is enough bandwith to support at least 5.1 analog out (hopefully 7.1) Does anyone know if this is possible? Has Sony even considererd this option? I don't see why it wouldn't work. Maybe someone who has some connection with Sony could ask or mention this to them. We could easily get upto 7.1 analog out from the MultiAV port and use HDMI for our TVs.

How bout lossless audio from the Multi AV output on the PS3? Think about it. Most people here are using HDMI to their TV. This frees up the Multi AV out port on the PS3. There is enough bandwith to support at least 5.1 analog out (hopefully 7.1) Does anyone know if this is possible? Has Sony even considererd this option? I don't see why it wouldn't work. Maybe someone who has some connection with Sony could ask or mention this to them. We could easily get upto 7.1 analog out from the MultiAV port and use HDMI for our TVs.No. Not going to happen. If you want lossless out of the PS3 you'll need a new receiver that decodes at least HDMI 1.1.

Just got done reading this whole thread. I must say some things just flew over my head. Im a noob to home audio. Im hearing DTS-MA, Dolby TrueHD, PCM, lossless audio, dont have any clue what this all means or does. I currently have a year old yamaha reciever w/ no hdmi hookups. So im assuming none of these choices are available to me correct? Everything I watch and play is in either Dolby Digital or DTS in a 5.1 setup, and i think it sounds great. Is there a real need to upgrade? How much of a difference is all this new audio versus dolby digital?

The PS3 could also output SA-CD multi-channel via 192 kHz at some point. What will these processors do at that point?
An unknown.One safe way around this is to get a receiver with HDMI 1.2, then you'll be able to send the 1bit 2,822kHz DSD signal directly to the receiver and avoid a PCM conversion altogether. Probably won't find a receiver like this for under $600 though.
Got the Sony STR-3200ES on loan and hooked the PS3 to it via HDMI. Played some new Depeche Mode multichannel SACD remasters and the audio quality is just insane. 3200ES reports receiving something like 177KHz PCM (can't remember what the number actually was). I've got a set of KEF's XQ-series speakers, and I've never ever heard them play so beautifully. Based on this experience, I placed an order for the 5200ES.

neemo6: No real need to upgrade as long as your reciever has digital inputs. Only reason to upgrade is if you want your receiver to get digital bitstream SACDs and DVD-As. You can still listen to lossless audio from movies, but it'll be stereo uncompressed PCM. No discrete surround. If you hear surround, your receiver is trying to process matrixed surround info. Well done DTS vs. well done uncompressed PCM yeilds very little difference. If there's any difference heard it's probably due to difference in volume or how the signal is processesed in your receiver.

Details found at this thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=796439

Having read almost all these pages can someone just sum up what reciever you need for the ps3 to hear the next gen audio formats that everyones been bragging about.The most ive been able to pick up is you need a hdmi reciever.

Having read almost all these pages can someone just sum up what reciever you need for the ps3 to hear the next gen audio formats that everyones been bragging about.The most ive been able to pick up is you need a hdmi reciever.

You need an HDMI receiver that will handle the audio portion. Some recievers are simply a switcher and just pass the audio AND video right on through without any regard.

Ideally you also want one that will handle the LFE channel properly as well. It's clear that the Denons (2307, 2807) do this and I believe the Onkyos (604, 674) do as well. Not sure, at this time about the Pannys.

The Pioneers, which I want, have LFE issues, but there is a firmware fix. I don't know whether or not they've fixed recent builds, so I am waiting a bit, myself.

I've got a POS Sony HTIAB that's about 8 years old. Would it be bad to upgrade my receiver and worry about the speakers later on?

I've got a POS Sony HTIAB that's about 8 years old. Would it be bad to upgrade my receiver and worry about the speakers later on?

Of course it wouldn't be bad. You just may not notice much of a difference until you do upgrade the speakers. Without seeing your actual system, that would be my guess anyway.

If it were me, I think I'd wait until I was ready to get some speakers too. If that's going to be awhile, prices may come down, or tecnology may change for the better in the recievers.

You could get 4 Polks (M10) and a Polk center all with 5 1/4 woofers from CC for 350 bucks right now. Something like that would be the BARE MINIMUM, I would say. Ideally 6 or 6 1/2" woofers would be a better minimum, but I wouldn't go under 5 1/4. Obviously you should demo anything.

Again now, if it were me, I would get a system from ascendacoustics.com; the best one I could afford.

My personal second choice for a good value would be a set of 5 B&W DM601 S3 or 4 plus the LCR60 S3 center.

Now subs are a whole other issue.

I like M&k MXs, but they're pretty spendy.

I think HSU and Outlaw will give you the most bang for the buck.

Good luck

Thanks for the advice man.

Thanks for the advice man.

No problem.

I'd be interested in updates when the time comes.

ok i've read all the posts and other threads that seem similar to this one, but i have yet to find an answer for my question.......a few people have said that if you are using an optical cable for the PCM audio, then it is only a 2 ch. and the reciever tries to decode the different matrixs etc.. Well, when i change the audio from DD to PCM, it sounds 20x better. So my question is, is there a major sound difference to the normal person between PCM 2 channel and 5.1? My set up is a Sony STR-DG800 reciever, Klipsch quintet III, and a sub. Can anyone answer my qestion please? Thanks

Well, 5.1 is going to give you more specific surround activity as there are 6 discrete channels of information. 2 channel surround decoding (ie, Dolby ProLogic) is mainly created with bleed through of out of phase material.

The reason PCM sounds better is that it's uncompressed audio. So, you have a choice: better sound with 2 channels, or lesser sound with better surround action.

The only other option is to save for a receiver or pre-amp/processor that can handle 8 channel LPCM via HDMI, and can apply ProLogic IIx to 5.1 PCM signals as well.

Dan

As I wrote in another thread, I tried the "PS3 Uncompressed Cheat" and did hear clearer sound, but lose panning surrounds and LFE. Now, for music-heavy uncompressed discs this may be the way to go if you don't have/can't afford a better receiver at the moment. Wanna try Chicago in this manner.

[QUOTE=FilmMixer]And why is that better than doing it in the player? I've been asking this everytime somebody bring it up, and have yet to get a good answer. It's not. It provides external Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD MA decoding option for 1st gen BD players that lack this feature!
:)

Tried to get some help in the receiver forum and got tumbleweeds so i figure i'll try here. I'm preferrably looking for a sub $600 receiver that will

- take a lossless HD audio stream from a PS3
- time delay for the surround speakers
- allow for LFE adjustment for PCM tracks
- video upconversion to HDMI
- 1080p passthrough

I read through the suggestions in the first post but none seem to have all requirements. The closest i've found are the Denon AVR-887 (not sure if it does LFE adjustment), which is a little more than i was looking to spend; and the Onkyo 674 (which may or may not have LFE adjustment, seen posts saying both) which apparently has problems passing 1080p. If anyone's got any suggestions, comments, recommendations on receivers i'm overlooking then fire away, it'd be much appreciated. As of now the AVR-887 looks to be my only choice although i'm hoping i'm overlooking other options.

Just above a few posts Sketcha says...

Ideally you also want one that will handle the LFE channel properly as well. It's clear that the Denons (2307, 2807) do this and I believe the Onkyos (604, 674) do as well. Not sure, at this time about the Pannys..

I don't know about the 887. If you find an A/VR that clicks with your list, I'll get that one too.

Even if the 674 does LFE adjustment for sure, it apparently has a 1080p passthrough problem because of some kind of HDCP issue so i'm opting against that one. Found out about it in the "5.1/7.1 PCM, HDMI, and DSP - An Explaination of the Future-Proof receiver" thread, just do a search for "674" and they'll be the most recent ones.

If worse comes to worse and i just can't wait any longer i'll just go buy the AVR887 at Circuit City and test it out myself. Really don't want to have to do this though since it's $100 more there not including taxes.

Even if the 674 does LFE adjustment for sure, it apparently has a 1080p passthrough problem because of some kind of HDCP issue so i'm opting against that one. Found out about it in the "5.1/7.1 PCM, HDMI, and DSP - An Explaination of the Future-Proof receiver" thread, just do a search for "674" and they'll be the most recent ones.

If worse comes to worse and i just can't wait any longer i'll just go buy the AVR887 at Circuit City and test it out myself. Really don't want to have to do this though since it's $100 more there not including taxes.
Just read a report that says the the Onkyos DO NOT handle the LFE properly. So much for the cheap way in.

It seems to keep coming around to the Denons for the dough. I prefer the Elites and the upgrade has corrected their LFE issues, but I don't know if/when the new shipments will have the upgrade installed.

Anyone?

Of course you could test the Denon and take it back regardless of whether or not it works. Just make sure that when you do make the final purchase, that you buy it from an authorized retailer so they'll honor the warranty.

Tried to get some help in the receiver forum and got tumbleweeds so i figure i'll try here. I'm preferrably looking for a sub $600 receiver that will

- take a lossless HD audio stream from a PS3
- time delay for the surround speakers
- allow for LFE adjustment for PCM tracks
- video upconversion to HDMI
- 1080p passthrough

I read through the suggestions in the first post but none seem to have all requirements. The closest i've found are the Denon AVR-887 (not sure if it does LFE adjustment), which is a little more than i was looking to spend; and the Onkyo 674 (which may or may not have LFE adjustment, seen posts saying both) which apparently has problems passing 1080p. If anyone's got any suggestions, comments, recommendations on receivers i'm overlooking then fire away, it'd be much appreciated. As of now the AVR-887 looks to be my only choice although i'm hoping i'm overlooking other options.
I think the 887 is going to cover it for you. I think it will do everything on your list.

Here is a comparison between it and the 2307. Other than price, a quick glance shows them to be identical and these big-store versions usually are... again, other than price.

http://www.usa.denon.com/ProductDetails/257.asp?compareitem=3255&compareitem=3251&imageField.x=93&imageField.y=19

Good luck

[QUOTE] It's not. It provides external Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD MA decoding option for 1st gen BD players that lack this feature!
:)
1st gen BD players don't have HDMI 1.3 (other then PS3), so much for that idea.

It's not. It provides external Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD MA decoding option for 1st gen BD players that lack this feature!
:)

And how can you reasonably assume that any player that will pass the hi res bit stream lack player decoding? I think that the PS3 will, in the furture, decode all of the formats it can pass, and since none of the other players out there have 1.3, it's a moot point.

How about this Pioneer reciever:

http://www.pioneerelectronics.ca/pna/product/detail/0,,32171715_32252771_328750992_tab=B,00.html?compName=PNA_Pr oductDetailComponent

Model VSX-1016TXV

Its $569CAD right now.

It has 2 HDMI inputs and says "multichannel input : 7.1"
Will this decode PCM tracks??


Marc.

How about this Pioneer reciever:

http://www.pioneerelectronics.ca/pna/product/detail/0,,32171715_32252771_328750992_tab=B,00.html?compName=PNA_Pr oductDetailComponent

Model VSX-1016TXV

Its $569CAD right now.

It has 2 HDMI inputs and says "multichannel input : 7.1"
Will this decode PCM tracks??


Marc.

Stay away. The HDMI inputs simply pass the info untouched to the display, with no audio processed at all. The only reason they're there is to act as a simple switcher.

will there be a update for the PS3 in the future that will enable the player to support DTS-HD (master, up to 18 mb/s)?
If this will be, than I will buy the PS3 when launched in the Netherlands, if not, than I will wait till stand alone player will come and support DTS-HD master

Yamaha 1700/2700 should do the trick.

Yamaha 1700/2700 should do the trick.

eh, NO the WON T.
They only ACCEPT a multi-channal signal presented by a player (just like my Denon AVC-A11 XVA can do this). So the waiting is for a player that can DECODE dts-hd (master) and true-hd

is the Onkyo TX-SR604S 7.1 Channel A/V Receiver any different than the one listed in the OP? It's on sale for under 400 bucks at amazon right now and I am thinking of picking it up. It will be a much more efficient selector switch than the mess I have now in addition to a good surround upgrade.

Went ahead and bought the Onkyo 604, but I have a question..is there a simple converter available to go from the subwoofer I have to the RCA in on the new receiver? The subwoofer that I have has the two exposed looking wires that connected like the other speaker wires where you have to screw them in..I'm sure there's a technical name for that but I don't know what it is. I'd rather not have to buy another subwoofer or do any "modding" so I was hoping there was a simple workaround.

Went ahead and bought the Onkyo 604, but I have a question..is there a simple converter available to go from the subwoofer I have to the RCA in on the new receiver? The subwoofer that I have has the two exposed looking wires that connected like the other speaker wires where you have to screw them in..I'm sure there's a technical name for that but I don't know what it is. I'd rather not have to buy another subwoofer or do any "modding" so I was hoping there was a simple workaround.

You need a amp then for your sub, RCA cable to amp, speaker wires from amp to sub.

Another option is buy a stereo receiver and use that as your amp, RCA cable to receiver, speaker wires from receiver to sub.

You need a amp then for your sub, RCA cable to amp, speaker wires from amp to sub.

Another option is buy a stereo receiver and use that as your amp, RCA cable to receiver, speaker wires from receiver to sub.

How much would a sub amp run?
edit, just a quick glimpse on amazon tells me it'd be cheaper to just buy another subwoofer unless there is a cheaper solution I am missing.

and would this work? http://www.amazon.com/Monster-Cable-Interlink-Subwoofer-Interconnect/dp/B00003CW9D

Further edit..I am reading that I can also hook it up on the front left and right outputs..that sounds like the easiest thing to do, will it work? Or are there any other options that will cost little to no cash to do..

edit some more..I have a really old surround system in a box that instead of a receiver had all of its outputs and controls on the subwoofer..is there a way I could use this with a Y adapter and just connect it from the preamp sub out on the onyko to any of the audio inputs on the old surround in a box?

How much would a sub amp run?
edit, just a quick glimpse on amazon tells me it'd be cheaper to just buy another subwoofer unless there is a cheaper solution I am missing.

and would this work? http://www.amazon.com/Monster-Cable-Interlink-Subwoofer-Interconnect/dp/B00003CW9D

Further edit..I am reading that I can also hook it up on the front left and right outputs..that sounds like the easiest thing to do, will it work? Or are there any other options that will cost little to no cash to do..

edit some more..I have a really old surround system in a box that instead of a receiver had all of its outputs and controls on the subwoofer..is there a way I could use this with a Y adapter and just connect it from the preamp sub out on the onyko to any of the audio inputs on the old surround in a box?
Can you give us a model number or something so we know exactly what we're dealing with here?

Can you give us a model number or something so we know exactly what we're dealing with here?

The new receiver is the Onkyo SR604
The subwoofer is from the Sony STR K660P theater in a box
The ancient subwoofer/theater in a box thing is a Daewoo AHT-1000

I can't even find a picture online of the Daewoo theater in a box, but to try to explain, instead of a separate receiver box, all inputs and outputs and controls are through the subwoofer. So I am wondering, as a temporary solution until I just buy a powered sub, if I could hook this up by using the sub pre amp out on the Onkyo to one of the rca inputs (which are meant for actual source inputs, not just bass) on the Daewoo and it would act as a powered sub.

I see the Onkyo 604 and the 674, but I didnt see anything about the 804. How would this match up against the other recievers mentioned in this thread for PCM.

The new receiver is the Onkyo SR604
The subwoofer is from the Sony STR K660P theater in a box
The ancient subwoofer/theater in a box thing is a Daewoo AHT-1000

I can't even find a picture online of the Daewoo theater in a box, but to try to explain, instead of a separate receiver box, all inputs and outputs and controls are through the subwoofer. So I am wondering, as a temporary solution until I just buy a powered sub, if I could hook this up by using the sub pre amp out on the Onkyo to one of the rca inputs (which are meant for actual source inputs, not just bass) on the Daewoo and it would act as a powered sub.
I think it's worth a try. I doubt that could hurt anything.

Let us know how it goes.

Wow, to get lossless audio I have 3 input needs - Toshiba HD-DVD, PS3, and Tivo Series 3. I guess that's going to be big bucks.

Wow, to get lossless audio I have 3 input needs - Toshiba HD-DVD, PS3, and Tivo Series 3. I guess that's going to be big bucks.
The A1 has analog outs. I would guess that most receivers with 2 HDMI ins would have an analog set as well.

Good luck.

Never had a surround sound setup. I've been reading through this thread and I'm leaning towards the Onkyo 604. My question is does anyone have any suggestions for a relatively cheap, but quality 5.1 speaker setup (I would like to keep the whole speaker/receiver package under $1000). It's a studio apartment so I don't need that much power.

Never had a surround sound setup. I've been reading through this thread and I'm leaning towards the Onkyo 604. My question is does anyone have any suggestions for a relatively cheap, but quality 5.1 speaker setup (I would like to keep the whole speaker/receiver package under $1000). It's a studio apartment so I don't need that much power.

the 604 actually comes in a decent home theater in a box setup, i'm not sure of the model but it appears to be pretty good. I just got my 604 today and love it.

the 604 actually comes in a decent home theater in a box setup, i'm not sure of the model but it appears to be pretty good. I just got my 604 today and love it.
Good call!

I thought solving your problem was going to be a bit of a struggle. An Onkyo speaker system was my first thought, but this system seems like a steal!

Here it is at Amazon...

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000H9AF9K/interactiveda631-20

If I were just starting out, I would be all over this!

I think the weakest part in any of these will be the sub, but you need to spend a minimum of $580 (Outlaw,) IMO to get a decent one so save your pennies and get by with the one Onkyo provides. Since you've never had surround, you will be content for awhile, I'm sure.

If wire installation is going to be a chore and if you plan on living there for awhile, I would get some better speaker cable than what they provide. On a budget I like the 16 ga. that you can find by the roll at Home Depot. Nothing is wrong with Radio Shack wire, either. Don't let anyone sucker you into high dollar cable. That's for people with money to burn that already have premium components.

Here it is at Amazon...

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000H9AF9K/interactiveda631-20

If I were just starting out, I would be all over this!


does anyone have this set? I would like to know how it sounds with OTA HD and PS3 blurray.

Has anyone mentioned this receiver and is it any good to be classified with the rest of these?

http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/item/details/538499368

After reading this thread I've pretty much narrowed it down to the JVC above, the Onkyo 604 and the Panasonic 57.

I was leaning toward the Onkyo until I saw the 57s price. If the only problem is the bass adjustment problem, I may be sold - I dont think that will be a big deal for me.

About the Onkyo though - so its established it can only go 5.1 PCM...does it still output the back 2 in PCM mode if you had a 7.1 setup? Or does HDMI allow 7.1 PCM? If not, what mode exactly can it produce 7.1 in? (I'm a noob)

Basically I have a $400 max budget and dont even want to spend that if I dont have to. I'm about ready to dive into a 5.1 setup, but want the flexibility to make it a 7.1 with the same receiver. And I know nothing about audio except what I've read. Thanks in advance.

Has anyone mentioned this receiver and is it any good to be classified with the rest of these?

http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/item/details/538499368

After reading this thread I've pretty much narrowed it down to the JVC above, the Onkyo 604 and the Panasonic 57.

I was leaning toward the Onkyo until I saw the 57s price. If the only problem is the bass adjustment problem, I may be sold - I dont think that will be a big deal for me.

About the Onkyo though - so its established it can only go 5.1 PCM...does it still output the back 2 in PCM mode if you had a 7.1 setup? Or does HDMI allow 7.1 PCM? If not, what mode exactly can it produce 7.1 in? (I'm a noob)

Basically I have a $400 max budget and dont even want to spend that if I dont have to. I'm about ready to dive into a 5.1 setup, but want the flexibility to make it a 7.1 with the same receiver. And I know nothing about audio except what I've read. Thanks in advance.

Wait for the new sony receivers in march, the price tag is very very affordable and they pass 7.1 pcm thru hdmi, I was ready to push the trigger on the xr-57 but I though that I could wait a little to see what those babies can do

About the Onkyo though - so its established it can only go 5.1 PCM...does it still output the back 2 in PCM mode if you had a 7.1 setup? Or does HDMI allow 7.1 PCM? If not, what mode exactly can it produce 7.1 in? (I'm a noob)

It won't take a 5.1 signal and process the surround channels into an extra channel (or two, I'm not sure) for the back speakers. If the SOURCE is 7.1 (such as on Crank, so I've read) it will play through the back speakers.

There probably won't be many discs that are encoded as 7.1 channels due to the space taken up by the extra channels. Plus, many movies aren't even mixed for 6.1 or 7.1 anyway. Maybe when lossless compression (TrueHD/DTS-HD MA) becomes more common, there will be more 7.1 soundtracks.

Wait for the new sony receivers in march, the price tag is very very affordable and they pass 7.1 pcm thru hdmi, I was ready to push the trigger on the xr-57 but I though that I could wait a little to see what those babies can do

do you have a link to what you're talking about?

It won't take a 5.1 signal and process the surround channels into an extra channel (or two, I'm not sure) for the back speakers. If the SOURCE is 7.1 (such as on Crank, so I've read) it will play through the back speakers.

There probably won't be many discs that are encoded as 7.1 channels due to the space taken up by the extra channels. Plus, many movies aren't even mixed for 6.1 or 7.1 anyway. Maybe when lossless compression (TrueHD/DTS-HD MA) becomes more common, there will be more 7.1 soundtracks.

so if the source is 7.1 (like Crank or the Resistance game) then it [the Onkyo 604] will also output the back 2, but it just wont be PCM?

so if the source is 7.1 (like Crank or the Resistance game) then it [the Onkyo 604] will also output the back 2, but it just wont be PCM?

No, it's still PCM. PCM can be different numbers of channels. The source would have to be a 7.1 channel PCM track.

If the source is 5.1 (like the vast majority of movies will be) the 604 won't take those 2 surround channels and spread them across the side and back surround speakers. In those cases, the back speakers will be silent.

do you have a link to what you're talking about?



so if the source is 7.1 (like Crank or the Resistance game) then it [the Onkyo 604] will also output the back 2, but it just wont be PCM?

sure
http://news.sel.sony.com/en/press_room/consumer/home_audio_video/home_theater/release/28268.html

No, it's still PCM. PCM can be different numbers of channels. The source would have to be a 7.1 channel PCM track.

If the source is 5.1 (like the vast majority of movies will be) the 604 won't take those 2 surround channels and spread them across the side and back surround speakers. In those cases, the back speakers will be silent.
You are aware that certain receivers do have this capability via Pro Logic II, right SirD?

I know my H/K 635 can. I've done it and the display registers it too. Pretty cool.

I have forgotten if these Onkyos do, though.

Wait for the new sony receivers in march, the price tag is very very affordable and they pass 7.1 pcm thru hdmi, I was ready to push the trigger on the xr-57 but I though that I could wait a little to see what those babies can do
I get worried when I hear the word "Pass" in regards to HDMI and Receivers.

You are aware that certain receivers do have this capability via Pro Logic II, right SirD?

I know my H/K 635 can. I've done it and the display registers it too. Pretty cool.

I have forgotten if these Onkyos do, though.

Yes, of course. I was referring to the Onkyo 604.

does anyone have this set? I would like to know how it sounds with OTA HD and PS3 blurray.
I've heard similar models at CC. If there is one in your area, you might check and see if they have one of their Onkyo HTIBs set up.

They're not going to sound like audiophile speakers, but they're decent for HT and, I believe the best, by far for the money.

does anyone have this set? I would like to know how it sounds with OTA HD and PS3 blurray.
Here are some more options without a receiver. Avoid the Bose like the plague, but the Def Techs and the Klipsch are pretty
good.

(won't past properly so I'm altering.)

http://www.abt electronics.com/scripts/site/site_category.php3?id=96

Remove the space after "abt"

Yes, of course. I was referring to the Onkyo 604.
Cool.

Personally, 7.1 is not a deal killer for me, but if I could find a receiver for a few bucks more that could do the Pro Logic II processing, I would be all over it.

Just read a report that says the the Onkyos DO NOT handle the LFE properly. So much for the cheap way in.

It seems to keep coming around to the Denons for the dough. I prefer the Elites and the upgrade has corrected their LFE issues, but I don't know if/when the new shipments will have the upgrade installed.

Anyone?

Of course you could test the Denon and take it back regardless of whether or not it works. Just make sure that when you do make the final purchase, that you buy it from an authorized retailer so they'll honor the warranty.

I was thinking of going with the Onkyo 604, but like you said, has some sort of issue with the LFE. What exactly is the issue the 604 has with LFE? I don't know if it would be a dealbreaker for me, but I do have a nice $800 Infinity Alpha sub and I do like my bass. Will this LFE issue make me regret my purchase if I buy one?

I was thinking of going with the Onkyo 604, but like you said, has some sort of issue with the LFE. What exactly is the issue the 604 has with LFE? I don't know if it would be a dealbreaker for me, but I do have a nice $800 Infinity Alpha sub and I do like my bass. Will this LFE issue make me regret my purchase if I buy one?
You'd probably better do a search on that, but I'll tell you what I can remember.

Basically the ".1" in 5.1 is the Low Frequency Effects channel. For bandwidth purposes it is transmitted from the source to the receiver at around 10db lower than it should be. The receiver recognizes it and boosts it 10db.

The workaround for it, that many people are perfectly happy with, is to boost the LFE with a setting on the receiver to manually compensate. I think the only problem with this is that for other sources, the bass would be 10db too high. Some receivers have multiple saving capabilities so you could program the HD optical player only to have this boost.

Hope that helps.

You'd probably better do a search on that, but I'll tell you what I can remember.

Basically the ".1" in 5.1 is the Low Frequency Effects channel. For bandwidth purposes it is transmitted from the source to the receiver at around 10db lower than it should be. The receiver recognizes it and boosts it 10db.

The workaround for it, that many people are perfectly happy with, is to boost the LFE with a setting on the receiver to manually compensate. I think the only problem with this is that for other sources, the bass would be 10db too high. Some receivers have multiple saving capabilities so you could program the HD optical player only to have this boost.

Hope that helps.

Thanks for the info, and I think I understand now. I guess the next question is, does anyone here have an Onkyo 604 that can let me know if I can save custom settings for each input? So I can set the sub channel up 10db when using my ps3 or BD's and games, and then when I switch to another input for tv or music cd's it will automatically lower the lfe setting back down 10db? This would be nice but I am doubting it will let you set custom settings on the receiver like I can my samsung dlp in which I can change picture settings for each input on the tv.

I have 604 and I haven't experienced and LFE issue.

To back up DirDrexl's statement that the 604 will not apply Pro Logic II or any other matrix to PCM 5.1, there's a nice, little chart on page 62 of the owner's manual. On the right side is Multi Channel PCM (DVD.)

Bummer. :(

Not the end of the world, though. I bet that PCM 5.1 sounds a whole lot better than standard DD EX or even DTS ES.

http://www.onkyousa.com/download/own_manuals.cfm?cat=Receiver

I have 604 and I haven't experienced and LFE issue.
I've done a little more searching. From what I gather, the 604 does NOT have an LFE issue. Some folks just don't know how to hook it up, I guess. One guy complaining about the LFE says he also has a problem with "LFE" from his CD player. This is not possible as CD players do not have LFE channels.

I hate to say it, but I think what we're dealing with here is a result of the 604 being a budget, HDMI reciever (though, apparently a very good one) that has attracted owners with limited knowledge that have given false reports based on said level of knowledge.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9907926&&#post9907926


Now here's the summary thread with a list of receivers that do and do not boost the LFE. The Onkyos are in the Do column (that's good) for 15 db, but most importantly, they are NOT in the "Receivers not boosting PCM LFE input by 10dB" column as are the Pioneers. According to this, they should work fine, just as ajamils here and many others on the thread below report. See the quote box below.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=748147

Also, here is a thread that is a search result within the thread above using the acronym "LFE."

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/search.php?searchid=2359398

Receivers offering dedicated 0-15dB analogue SW gain

* Denon AVR-2307CI, AVR-2807, AVR-3806, AVR-4306, AVR-4806(AVC-A11XV), AVR-4806CI(AVC-A11XVA): 0,5,10,15dB steps
* Onkyo TX-SR604, TX-SR674, TX-SR702, TX-SR804E, TX-NR1000, TX-NR5000E: 0,5,10,15dB steps

Receivers offering dedicated analogue SW gain less than 15dB

* Pioneer VSX-84TXSi/VSX-82TXSi(VSX-AX4ASi/VSX-AX2ASi): 0 or +10dB selectable
* Pioneer VSX-74TXVi/VSX-72TXVi(VSX-AX4AVi/VSX-AX2AVi): 0 or +10dB selectable
* Sony STR-DA5200ES: 0 or +10dB selectable
* Marantz SR7001/SR8001: offers completely separate speaker level trims for 7.1 analogue input; SW -18dB to +12dB, others -12dB to +12dB

Receivers with no separate analogue SW gain

* Marantz SR7200

Receivers boosting PCM LFE input by 10dB

* Onkyo TX-NR1000, TX-NR5000E: can set +10dB, 0dB, -10dB, off; separate settings for PCM, DSD, DD, DTS and AAC
* Onkyo TX-SR804E: can set +10dB, 0dB, -10dB, off; unified setting for PCM, DD and DTS
* Denon AVR-2307CI, AVR-2807, AVR-3806, AVR-4306, AVR-4806CI(AVC-A11XVA): can set +10dB or 0dB; per-surround mode setting(?) - should allow separate settings for PCM, DSD, DD and DTS
* Panasonic SA-XR700: no option, but appears to get it right
* Yamaha RX-V1700/RX-V2700: No option. Latest tests suggest it is okay.
* Denon AVR-4806(AVC-A11XV): LFE control only affects DD and DTS. One owner reports that PCM/DSD LFE gain is undocumentedly linked to analogue SW Level setting; another owner reports that this doesn't work for him

Receivers not boosting PCM LFE input by 10dB

* Pioneer VSX-74TXVi/VSX-84TXSi/VSX-82TXSi(VSX-AX4AVi/VSX-AX4ASi/VSX-AX2ASi): apparently firmware fix is now available, but no firm reports yet

Other odd receiver behaviour

* Onkyo SR-804E: can't apply EX/PLIIx/etc to multichannel PCM input
* Sony STR-DA5200ES: can't apply EX/PLIIx/etc to multichannel PCM input
* Panasonic SA-XR700: can't apply EX/PLIIx/etc to multichannel PCM input
* Panasonic SA-XR57: can't bass manage multichannel PCM input - avoid



Whew!

Now go buy 'em, you guys and hook 'em up and tell us how much you love them!

Note: "It just goes to show ya' that it's always somethin'."

I just ran across a potential issue with the Onkyos. Some have reported that there is some kind of bug that won't allow 1080p to pass through the receiver to your display. Any HDMI 1.1 or greater receiver should be able to do this.

If it is important for you to pass a 1080p signal (vs. 1080i) from your player, through the receiver and to your display, I would suggest more research.

Here is where I found it. You'll have to do your own search...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=738511&page=1&pp=30&highlight=lfe

If you have, say, around 550 clams, you can find a Denon 887 (very nearly identical to the 2307ci) which appears to do everything great including processing 5.1 PCM into 7.1 via Pro Logic II. I would try J&R first, but you have to call to get the price.

Also bear in mind that if you buy the 2307ci (not the 887) online, it will likely not be covered under warranty from Denon.

Note: "It just goes to show ya' that it's always somethin'."

I just ran across a potential issue with the Onkyos. Some have reported that there is some kind of bug that won't allow 1080p to pass through the receiver to your display. Any HDMI 1.1 or greater receiver should be able to do this.

If it is important for you to pass a 1080p signal (vs. 1080i) from your player, through the receiver and to your display, I would suggest more research.

Here is where I found it. You'll have to do your own search...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=738511&page=1&pp=30&highlight=lfe

If you have, say, around 550 clams, you can find a Denon 887 (very nearly identical to the 2307ci) which appears to do everything great including processing 5.1 PCM into 7.1 via Pro Logic II. I would try J&R first, but you have to call to get the price.

Also bear in mind that if you buy the 2307ci (not the 887) online, it will likely not be covered under warranty from Denon.

I read most of that thread and dont remember reading about that bug...I will have to plow through it again until you remember what page it was on...and did you mean bug as in SOME were not getting it or ALL? Is there any sort of fix for that?