Pioneer Elite BDP-HD1 First End User Reports - OWNERS ONLY [Text View] - Page 2

bferr1

12-29-06, 08:25 AM

No One has found an HONEST BUG.

They Have FOUND ---
Some features are not yet implemented. There are no guarantees
of specific features being part of a FW upgrade.

My Two cent opinion says since all the MISSING Features are
in the Manual - that it is likely they will be ENABLED when a
FW update is released.

The only complaints people have been able to post are that
so and so feature is not there. There is one NEW Blu-Ray
release this week that NEEDS a new feature - not implemented
yet - so therefore it does NOT PLAY as one would expect.Well, my two cent opinion is that if there are features described in the manual that are missing, as you say, either the manual is wrong or it is a bug, as per the definition of "bug" that JigLaw posted: "A software bug is an error, flaw, mistake, failure, or fault in a computer program that prevents it from behaving as intended."

Sorry, but failing to play "The Descent" for no known reason when it seems to play other BD-J discs like "League of Extraordinary Gentlemen" is a bug because the player is not behaving as intended. I stand by my bug comment, especially in light of the fact that other BD-J discs apparently play fine. Again, my two cents.

BenDover

12-29-06, 08:49 AM

It plays on the Samsung bd player, perfectly.

thanks for that info...i presume this is after a firmware upgrade and not as initially shipped at launch?

i've read a couple posts here that appear misleading and confused...it is my understanding from bd insiders that post here at avs that all 1st gen bd players are fully bd-j(ava) compliant.

not playing descent is more of a 'bug' if you will that will require a firmware upgrade but the firmware upgrade wouldn't be installing/enabling bd-j for the first time, simply fixing some newly discovered bug which i imagine we will encounter on both formats as studios get more creative with authoring ans more studios start learning how...

bferr1

12-29-06, 09:05 AM

not playing descent is more of a 'bug' if you will that will require a firmware upgrade but the firmware upgrade wouldn't be installing/enabling bd-j for the first time, simply fixing some newly discovered bug which i imagine we will encounter on both formats as studios get more creative with authoring ans more studios start learning how...That's exactly my point of view. It's not "The Descent" disc itself, as it reportedly plays fine on the Samsung and Panasonic; it's got to be something inherent in Pioneer's BD-J support that conflicts with "The Descent" but not any other BD-J discs. Hence, a bug.

drhankz

12-29-06, 09:27 AM

That's exactly my point of view. It's not "The Descent" disc itself, as it reportedly plays fine on the Samsung and Panasonic; it's got to be something inherent in Pioneer's BD-J support that conflicts with "The Descent" but not any other BD-J discs. Hence, a bug.

================================
Copy and Pasted from A Forum on Descent
================================

http://forums.highdefdigest.com/showthread.php?t=69

I purchased the Blu-Ray disc of "The Descent" yesterday (Dec 26) at the Best Buy store in Greensboro, NC. This is my 12th Blu-ray disc. All others play fine on my new Sony Blu-Ray player that I purchased the second week of this month (Dec 2006). IT IS THE FIRST AND ONLY DISC TO NOT PLAY AT ALL. All my other Blu-ray discs play without flaws, hiccups, anything.

I returned the disc (DESCENT) to the store today (Dec 27). A Best Buy "Team member" assisted me with putting the disc into their Sony Blu-Ray player and their Samsung Blu-Ray Player. It would not start on either machine. It would "load" but the screen would remain dark and you could not access any chapter, picture, menu--nothing, nada.

We unwrapped another copy of the Blu-Ray version of THE DESCENT, and it did he same thing--"load" and then nothing!

I have loved Blu-Ray discs and the Sony player. Obviously, Lionsgate has a problem with at least some (IF NOT ALL) copies of THE DESCENT.

Now, HOW DOES ONE GET THIS INFO TO LIONSGATE AND SONY?

I'm really looking forward to the seeing the movie on Blu-ray. So far, the movies look fantastic

gas_leak

12-29-06, 09:52 AM

I have a Sony and Sammy player and The Descent will not play in the Sony but plays fine on my Sammy with latest firmware as does all the features.

drhankz

12-29-06, 09:58 AM

I have a Sony and Sammy player and The Descent will not play in the Sony but plays fine on my Sammy with latest firmware as does all the features.

Thank You for that INFO - I think that proves it is related
to a FEATURE not yet IMPLEMENTED or ENABLED.

HTMan34

12-29-06, 10:12 AM

bferr1

12-29-06, 10:17 AM

I am not really sure why all these people are getting upset from this 1 title not being able to be played in the Pioneer. It appears if only the people that don't own the Pioneer are getting upset.Well, I can't speak for others, but I've been wanting to upgrade to a Pioneer from my Panasonic. But if I did, I'd have to give up a lot and I'm not sure what I'd be gaining.

drhankz

12-29-06, 10:27 AM

[QUOTE=drhankz]Thank You for that INFO - I think that proves it is related
to a FEATURE not yet IMPLEMENTED or ENABLED.[/QUOTE

That is what it is starting to sound like. I am not really sure why all these people are getting upset from this 1 title not being able to be played in the Pioneer. It appears if only the people that don't own the Pioneer are getting upset. I for one am not the least bit concerned, especially with the other 11 titles I own that play flawlessly!

I think some of the POSSIBLE problem also is Lionsgate's doing.

They have chosen to implement a feature named Metamenu(TM).

It is suppose to work on all Blu-Ray players - but it is not part of
the various standards Blu-Ray Player makers might have tested.

bferr1

12-29-06, 10:31 AM

[QUOTE=HTMan34]They have chosen to implement a feature named Metamenu(TM).

It is suppose to work on all Blu-Ray players - but it is not part of
the various standards Blu-Ray Player makers might have tested.No, Metamenu is nothing new. It has been used since the first wave of LGF discs, including T2, Lords of War and Crash-- all of which play just fine on my Panny, my friend's Sammy, and likely your Pioneer.

Ray Cathode

12-29-06, 10:38 AM

[QUOTE=drhankz]Thank You for that INFO - I think that proves it is related
to a FEATURE not yet IMPLEMENTED or ENABLED.[/QUOTE

That is what it is starting to sound like. I am not really sure why all these people are getting upset from this 1 title not being able to be played in the Pioneer. It appears if only the people that don't own the Pioneer are getting upset. I for one am not the least bit concerned, especially with the other 11 titles I own that play flawlessly!

I am with you. Thirty nine out of 40 BD's that I own play flawlessly. I have faith in Pioneer and/or Lionsgate in addressing this problem in due time.

They can have my HD1 when they pry it from... :D

bferr1

12-29-06, 10:41 AM

Descent - Requires BD-Java - which is not IN THE PLAYER YET. Then how is it that League of Extraordinary Gentlemen CAN play but The Descent CAN'T?

drhankz

12-29-06, 10:45 AM

Then how is it that League of Extraordinary Gentlemen CAN play but The Descent CAN'T?

Since you don't OWN a Pioneer - we should all DISCOUNT
anything you PUBLISH, as Just hearsay!

ALSO the TITLE of this THREAD is User Reports - OWNERS ONLY.

Tell me how you qualify to be here!

bferr1

12-29-06, 11:01 AM

Since you don't OWN a Pioneer - we should all DISCOUNT
anything you PUBLISH, as Just hearsay!Is that a real answer? Okay, will you take JigLaw's word for it? http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9288584&&#post9288584

ALSO the TITLE of this THREAD is User Reports - OWNERS ONLY.

Tell me how you qualify to be here!Tell me how you qualify to enforce that! Besides, as I have stated repeatedly, I have been/am currently thinking of upgrading to the Pioneer and am merely trying to separate hype from reality and make the best decision that I can. So far, I'm not convinced that the Pioneer is worth the upgrade, IMO. But please convince me otherwise... or just continue to cover your ears, talk over me and say "I can't hear you!"

learning101

12-29-06, 11:03 AM

Since you don't OWN a Pioneer - we should all DISCOUNT
anything you PUBLISH, as Just hearsay!

ALSO the TITLE of this THREAD is User Reports - OWNERS ONLY.

Tell me how you qualify to be here!

Now that you got that out of the way, I would be interested in an answer. I had thought that Descent was the only BD with Java - so the Java reason made sense. Now I am confused again.

Thanks for any clarification.

drhankz

12-29-06, 11:06 AM

Will you take JigLaw's word for it? http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9288584&&#post9288584

Tell me how you qualify to enforce that? Besides, as I have stated repeatedly, I have been/am currently thinking of upgrading to the Pioneer and am merely trying to separate hype from reality and make the best decision that I can. So far, I'm not convinced that the Pioneer is worth the upgrade, IMO. But please convince me otherwise.

I don't see Jiglaw calling things BUGS which don't exist yet.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9286941&&#post9286941

As for a Pioneer Want-To-Be - I hope you stick with your Panny.
You whine so much without putting your money where your
mouth is - I can only imagine later.

drhankz

12-29-06, 11:09 AM

Now that you got that out of the way, I would be interested in an answer. I had thought that Descent was the only BD with Java - so the Java reason made sense. Now I am confused again.

Thanks for any clarification.

I don't think anyone here on the AVS Forum knows for sure
WHY - it doesn't play. But a previous post indicates both Sony
and Pioneer don't play it. I'm sure Lionsgate has some new
FEATURE that has not been tested with all Player makers yet.

bferr1

12-29-06, 11:13 AM

I don't think anyone here on the AVS Forum knows for sure
WHY - it doesn't play. But a previous post indicates both Sony
and Pioneer don't play it. I'm sure Lionsgate has some new
FEATURE that has not been tested with all Player makers yet.Now, why couldn't you post this same answer to my question, instead of escalating things and attacking me personally twice?

drhankz

12-29-06, 11:16 AM

Now, why couldn't you post this same answer to my question, instead of escalating things and attacking me personally twice?

BECAUSE - at the time = it was not 100% clear there were
other Titles which had BD-Java that DID work.

alexortega

12-29-06, 03:51 PM

Well, I can't speak for others, but I've been wanting to upgrade to a Pioneer from my Panasonic. But if I did, I'd have to give up a lot and I'm not sure what I'd be gaining.

This is why Joe Rod's A/B comparison will be very interesting when it comes out. I have a Pioneer Elite DVD Player and the Panny Blu-Ray Player. The way i view it going from a Panny Blu-Ray to a Pioneer Blu-Ray Player i will be gaining/losing the following:

Gaining:
1) 1080p /24f support which will remove image judder if you also have a 1080p/24f display
2) Better Player Ergonomics: Remote / Bit Rate Display etc

Losing:
1) CD Playback (No big deal...)
2) DVD Audio Playback (No big deal....)
3) Loss of promised April firmware update for internally decoding DTS-HD MA and DolbyTrue HD ( A very big deal - after listening to uncompressed 5.1 PCM soundtracks, HD audio decoding is a must in my books. You lose 1/2 the Blu-Ray experience. I would not upgrade to a Pioneer Elite Blu-ray unless it had planned advanced audio codec support like the Panny)

PooperScooper

12-29-06, 04:46 PM

bferr1

12-29-06, 05:14 PM

This is why Joe Rod's A/B comparison will be very interesting when it comes out. I have a Pioneer Elite DVD Player and the Panny Blu-Ray Player. The way i view it going from a Panny Blu-Ray to a Pioneer Blu-Ray Player i will be gaining/losing the following:

Gaining:
1) 1080p /24f support which will remove image judder if you also have a 1080p/24f display
2) Better Player Ergonomics: Remote / Bit Rate Display etc

Losing:
1) CD Playback (No big deal...)
2) DVD Audio Playback (No big deal....)
3) Loss of promised April firmware update for internally decoding DTS-HD MA and DolbyTrue HD ( A very big deal - after listening to uncompressed 5.1 PCM soundtracks, HD audio decoding is a must in my books. You lose 1/2 the Blu-Ray experience. I would not upgrade to a Pioneer Elite Blu-ray unless it had planned advanced audio codec support like the Panny)Alex, for my own list of differences that I can spot between the players, see here: http://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php?p=36861&postcount=18
I think I'm as objective and even-handed as possible.

joerod

12-29-06, 05:34 PM

drhankz

12-29-06, 05:36 PM

Don H

12-29-06, 05:39 PM

Alex, for my own list of differences that I can spot between the players, see here: http://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php?p=36861&postcount=18
I think I'm as objective and even-handed as possible.

I only want to know in your humble opinion which player has the best PQ.

Anyway my electronics store called to ask if I wanted the only Pio that came in. They ordered 12, got one. I'm pretty sure, since he quoted a price lower than what I paid for the Sony at BB, I will be there when he opens Sat morning.

drhankz

12-29-06, 05:44 PM

I only want to know in your humble opinion which player has the best PQ.

WAIT until TOMORROW NIGHT.

Joerod is doing an A/B Comparison.

He will have BOTH. Others do not have BOTH.

bferr1

12-29-06, 05:53 PM

I only want to know in your humble opinion which player has the best PQ.

Don, from what I've read here and elsewhere, the general concensus is the Pioneer has better PQ, but I can't tell if that's because it can output 1080p/24 and the Panasonic can't or because it truly has better PQ. And since I can't use 1080p/24 with my current Samsung DLP anyway, it's kind of a moot point. With my DLP TV, will I see this better PQ? If so, then the upgrade is worth it; if not, then I'm better off keeping the Panasonic. But I'm still waiting for my local Tweeter to get theirs in (I'm told 1/8/07 now :mad: ), and that's why I'm agonizing over this decision so much. The wait is f**king killing me.

bferr1

12-29-06, 05:57 PM

I am more curious about my favorite subject: picture quality. I know everyone knows about all the bells and whistles each unit has or does not have. I just want to see how well they perform in terms of all out picture Q. For Blu ray and regular sd dvds. I am even more curious to do 480i over HDMI so my crystalio II can shine. ;) I guess my unit will be here in the morning so I have quite a Saturday planned. :) Shelf A vs Shelf B...joerod, eagerly awaiting your analysis. In particular, can you be sure to include a non-1080p/24 display in your testing? We all know that the Panasonic is lacking in this area, so you'll need a level playing field. Oh, and can you check the Pioneer for CUE on SD DVDs and crushed blacks on BDs? We all know the Panasonic has problems with both. Thanks.

(Is that objective enough for you, drhankz? :))

drhankz

12-29-06, 06:22 PM

(Is that objective enough for you, drhankz? :))

SURE IS :) :rolleyes: :o

JlgLaw

12-29-06, 06:40 PM

....
One delay after another and still doesn't play DVDs from Lionsgate. What else won't it do?

Unbelievable.

Just for clarity sake, I believe the only BR disk it cannot play (like the Sony) is the Descent. Other Lionsgate BR releases play just fine (I watched The Punisher last night, Crash wasn't a problem, neither was Lord of War, etc.)

Jim

Rob Tomlin

12-29-06, 07:43 PM

joerod, eagerly awaiting your analysis. In particular, can you be sure to include a non-1080p/24 display in your testing? We all know that the Panasonic is lacking in this area, so you'll need a level playing field. Oh, and can you check the Pioneer for CUE on SD DVDs and crushed blacks on BDs? We all know the Panasonic has problems with both. Thanks.

(Is that objective enough for you, drhankz? :))

Why should he include a non 1080p/24 display in his testing? I think that is an unreasonable request. Do you know how much time and effort goes into a true A/B comparison test? You have to calibrate both players and the inputs seperately. It isn't like he can just unplug all this stuff and then plug them in to another display. It is a very time consuming process.

1080p/24 output is one of the known advantages to the Pioneer. Taking that advantage away does NOT level the playing field. It handicaps the Pioneer by taking one of its features away that the competition doesn't have.

Frank Stein

12-29-06, 08:14 PM

Good question Frank. Let me know if you get the discrete back channel on the 7.1 LPCM thru the analog outs. You can PM me or post it in this thread. I'd really like to know the answer to that question.

Also if anyone has compared the picture quality & sound quality of the Pioneer Elite vs the Panasonic let me know.

I started a new thread on the Descent's sound in the BD Software section. I described how the Pansonic handled the PCM sound with a Denon 4806ci. The thread was hijacked by 89suited and probably doesn't exist anymore. I don't feel like retyping the entire post and I don't know if I kept a copy of the write up that I did before posting.

But yes, the Panasonic did output all 8 channels (7.1) via the analog outputs. I don't dare say that this demonstrates the importance of 8 channel analog outputs for those without HDMI sound input on their AVR for fear of being beaten to a pulp by 89suited or others who will say that there will only be a few 7.1 movies. Also, before I'm pummelled by saying The Descent is 7.1, I hereby officially acknowledge that I do know that the two rear channels are duplicated. So while the output is officially 7.1 (8 channels), because of the duplicated rears, some will say it's only 6.1 (7 channels) of actual discrete sound. I disagree, as I think we should call it 7.1 (8 channel) discrete regardless of the fact that the two rear channels are the same.

bferr1

12-29-06, 09:26 PM

Why should he include a non 1080p/24 display in his testing? I think that is an unreasonable request.Why? Because you'd be comparing apples to oranges. 1080p/60 is apples to apples.

1080p/24 output is one of the known advantages to the Pioneer. Taking that advantage away does NOT level the playing field. It handicaps the Pioneer by taking one of its features away that the competition doesn't have.So why bother even having an A-B comparison in the first place? What would be the point? joerod can certainly evaluate the 1080p/24 output of the Pioneer on its own, but using it as a basis of comparison against another player that does not have the same feature is kind of a waste of time. It might prove that 1080p/24 is the more desirable format, but not necessarily prove the Pioneer's PQ was better than the Panasonic's.

Rob Tomlin

12-29-06, 09:39 PM

Why? Because you'd be comparing apples to oranges. 1080p/60 is apples to apples.

So why bother even having an A-B comparison in the first place? What would be the point? joerod can certainly evaluate the 1080p/24 output of the Pioneer on its own, but using it as a basis of comparison against another player that does not have the same feature is kind of a waste of time.

Huh?

This makes zero sense.

Why compare? Gee, I don't know.....how about so we can see if 1080p/24 actually makes a noticeable difference over 1080p/60? What a concept! :rolleyes:

bferr1

12-29-06, 09:42 PM

Rob Tomlin

12-29-06, 09:50 PM

What a concept-- I want to know if the Pioneer has better PQ than the Panasonic at the same frame rate, just as we've compared the Panny to the Sammy at the same frame rate, or the Sammy versus the Sony. Comparing 1080p/24 to 1080p/60 is another debate entirely.

If you have a display that doesn't do 1080p/24 I understand why that is the comparison you want done.

But Joe's display does do 1080p/24 (I believe), so again, asking him to do a review just for you is a tad unreasonable, to say the least.

Why he wouldn't use the Pioneer to its fullest capabilities really wouldn't make a whole lot of sense, would it?

bferr1

12-29-06, 10:02 PM

If you have a display that doesn't do 1080p/24 I understand why that is the comparison you want done.Yes, that is exactly what I want done, if at all possible. My DLP is limited to 60Hz. Will I see an appreciable difference in PQ at 60Hz if I switched out my Panny for a Pioneer? Because, like joerod, said, PQ is what it's all about.

But Joe's display does do 1080p/24 (I believe), so again, asking him to do a review just for you is a tad unreasonable, to say the least.Rob, I'm just asking, that's all. If he can do it, great; if he can't, no big deal.

Rob Tomlin

12-29-06, 10:14 PM

Yes, that is exactly what I want done, if at all possible. My DLP is limited to 60Hz. Will I see an appreciable difference in PQ at 60Hz if I switched out my Panny for a Pioneer? Because, like joerod, said, PQ is what it's all about.

Mine is limited to 60Hz as well. But I still would rather know if there is an improvement with 1080p/24 since my next projector will have that capability.

I shouldn't speculate, but I am going to anyway: based on the positive reviews that we have seen re the Panny, I seriously doubt that you will see any appreciable improvement in PQ with the Pioneer doing 1080p/60 output over what the Panny can do. The Pio's biggest selling point is 1080p/24 (and 480i output over HDMI for SD DVD's to an external scaler like Joe's Crystalio 2), and that is where any noticeable PQ improvement is likely to come (for those who have displays that can handle it).

Rob, I'm just asking, that's all. If he can do it, great; if he can't, no big deal.

Sorry, I didn't mean to get so snappy. Bad day at work. Thank God the long weekend is here! :)

bferr1

12-29-06, 10:36 PM

No worries, Rob.

And I agree with you about knowing if there is an improvement with 1080p/24. I'm sure there is; I just can't benefit from it right now with my current equipment. And thus my quandary whether to go with the Pioneer or not, since I just got my DLP this past July and was hoping to hang onto it for awhile.

I shouldn't speculate, but I am going to anyway: based on the positive reviews that we have seen re the Panny, I seriously doubt that you will see any appreciable improvement in PQ with the Pioneer doing 1080p/60 output over what the Panny can do.
If I remember correctly, Stacey Spears' objective measurements said something about some kind of vertical filtering going on in the Panny. Plus, the crushed blacks on BDs and CUE on SDs. So as good as the Panny's picture is, there is room for improvement. And if I do upgrade to the Pioneer, those would be some of the reasons why.

joerod

12-29-06, 11:53 PM

I will be able to test both so no worries. I won't be able to spend as much time doing both but I will be as subjective as possible. My neighbor has a different set up so if I need I could always go there and plug and play. I plan to atleast look at all resolutions. And of course to me the main thing is the picture Q. No matter what that is most important to me. I have spent thousands upgrading my equipment so I could squeeze out 5-10% more... And I would do it again... :)

bferr1

12-30-06, 12:07 AM

Great, joerod! Thanks for all your hard work! Definitely appreciated.

christefan

12-30-06, 12:07 AM

I got the Pioneer player from ABT in the Chicago area on Thursday; been running both some SD and HD discs through it since then. It is being used with a Qualia 006 as a display at 1080/60 and compared against both a Toshiba A1 and a Playstation 3.

So far I'm going to say the SD picture quality from the Pioneer is easily better then either of the other machines, as far as HD quality I would agree with Walkamo that the Pioneer player is visually superior to a PS3. Compared to the Toshiba the mechanical aspects are distinctly better and I'm a bit suprised that what I've played in HD at how many of the titles are looking much more directly comparable to the best discs on HD-DVD when I really expected with what I've seen through the PS3 and all the complaints about Blu-ray mastering that I would be feeling that Blu-ray was not really up to the standards that have been established by the best HD-DVD titles. My only issue so far is difficult if not impossible performance for the Home Media Gallery; connectivity and reliability are not doing well yet-unfortunately this setup relies on Microsoft generating functional, consistent code (Windows Media Connect) and I haven't been able to consistently get a connection that will actually play something even after various setting adjustments and computer rebooting. Good luck for everyone trying to make a decision, I felt that if the Media Gallery didn't function well the unit would go back but the Pioneer's playback performance has been very good and the Gallery function may improve with different settings or after some new code and firmware is written, so I may keep it anyway--

HTMan34

12-30-06, 12:27 AM

[QUOTE=HTMan34]

I am with you. Thirty nine out of 40 BD's that I own play flawlessly. I have faith in Pioneer and/or Lionsgate in addressing this problem in due time.

They can have my HD1 when they pry it from... :D

Wow 40 BD's! I thought I was going crazy buying BD movies...I have 11 so far with another 11 on the way within the next few days from Amazon! I am trying to get caught up before the new titles come out in January.

Rony Dunham

12-30-06, 12:31 AM

Hi everybody,

Is it possible to output 1080fps(1080i48) from the pioneer ?

HTMan34

12-30-06, 12:31 AM

Is that a real answer? Okay, will you take JigLaw's word for it? http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9288584&&#post9288584

Tell me how you qualify to enforce that! Besides, as I have stated repeatedly, I have been/am currently thinking of upgrading to the Pioneer and am merely trying to separate hype from reality and make the best decision that I can. So far, I'm not convinced that the Pioneer is worth the upgrade, IMO. But please convince me otherwise... or just continue to cover your ears, talk over me and say "I can't hear you!"

Nobody should have to convince you, but from all us who own the Pioneer it appears that we are all 100% satisfied. Not sure if there will be a night and day difference from the Panasonic to the Pioneer, but the Pioneer is one helluva player so far, especially for a 1st gen player!

pifemaster

12-30-06, 12:42 AM

I just got an email today with my tracking number for my Pioneer Elite player. It will be delivered on Wed Jan 03. I am not thrilled to read christefan's post regarding the media connect issues as this was a big reason why I went with the Pioneeer. Hopefully it performs as expected.

Bob

Frank D

12-30-06, 12:43 AM

Does the Pioneer have 5.1 analog outs or 7.1?

If it does have 7.1 analog outs, does anyone know what would happen to the two extra channels if it is connected to a processor with only 5.1 analog ins?

Similiarly what happens to 7.1 information on the HD/Blue Ray disk if the player has only 5.1 analog outs?

Rob Tomlin

12-30-06, 12:59 AM

If I remember correctly, Stacey Spears' objective measurements said something about some kind of vertical filtering going on in the Panny. Plus, the crushed blacks on BDs and CUE on SDs. So as good as the Panny's picture is, there is room for improvement. And if I do upgrade to the Pioneer, those would be some of the reasons why.

I missed that. The Panny BD player that I saw on a Sony Qualia 004 looked superb. We used that player in a A/B comparison with the Toshiba HD-A1 (Blu-ray vs HD-DVD). The Panny seemed to have ever so slight improvements in color saturation (although we couldn't say which was actually more accurate). We also had a slight preference for the Panny's SD upconverting ability over the Toshiba.

bferr1

12-30-06, 01:07 AM

I missed that. The Panny BD player that I saw on a Sony Qualia 004 looked superb. We used that player in a A/B comparison with the Toshiba HD-A1 (Blu-ray vs HD-DVD). The Panny seemed to have ever so slight improvements in color saturation (although we couldn't say which was actually more accurate). We also had a slight preference for the Panny's SD upconverting ability over the Toshiba.I have to correct myself. The Panny has some sort of horizontal high resolution filtering issue, not vertical. See here, under the "Chroma Resolution" heading, for more: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=757137&highlight=objective

Rob Tomlin

12-30-06, 01:13 AM

I have to correct myself. The Panny has some sort of horizontal high resolution filtering issue, not vertical. See here, under the "Chroma Resolution" heading, for more: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=757137&highlight=objective

Panasonic DMP-BD10
The horizontal Nyquist burst was pretty much gray. Something in the player must be filtering out this high resolution information. Vertical was fine.

I wonder what kind of impact this would have on real world viewing? It sure seemed to be showing every bit as much resolution as the Toshiba in our comparisons.

dsinger

12-30-06, 07:46 AM

Has anybody connected the Pio to a DVI display? Is YCbCr properly converted to RGB? (unlike the Tosh HD DVD players).

Also, without pointing fingers, some of you (fanboys?) need to dial it down a notch or two. Debating player issues and others opinions is fine, but let's keep things non-personal.

larry

Regarding DVI, the Pioneer is the like the Sony. The setup menu allows you to chose the color space setting. Choices are YCbCr, 16-235 or 0-255. I chose 16-235 and it works perfectly. Per DVE the unit (a Sony S1) shows btb and wtw. NOTE however, when the Sony is turned off it reverts to 0-255 which the Pioneer manual says is the default. I have to reset the Sony every time it is turned on!! Hopefully, Pioneer fixed this as part of their extended QC effort.

JFR0317

12-30-06, 07:51 AM

...My only issue so far is difficult if not impossible performance for the Home Media Gallery; connectivity and reliability are not doing well yet-unfortunately this setup relies on Microsoft generating functional, consistent code (Windows Media Connect) and I haven't been able to consistently get a connection that will actually play something even after various setting adjustments and computer rebooting. Good luck for everyone trying to make a decision, I felt that if the Media Gallery didn't function well the unit would go back but the Pioneer's playback performance has been very good and the Gallery function may improve with different settings or after some new code and firmware is written, so I may keep it anyway--

Have you tried Windows Media Player 11? I don't have my BDP-HD1 yet (supposedly due on January 8th from Tweeter), but I do have a Pioneer Elite PRO-1140 TV that has Home Media Gallery. It is able to "see" my Windows XP laptop with Windows Media Player 11, to play MP3 files, to display jpeg format photos, and to play HD WMV video clips downloaded from Microsoft's site.

No, I certainly don't work for Microsoft - every other computer in the house is a Mac. Just wanted to point out that after not being able to find a current Windows Media Connect to download, some further reading led me to download the latest Windows Media Player 11, and after a few steps to enable sharing, I got my Home Media Gallery to work.

I obviously have no idea about what differences, if any, there are between the BDP-HD1's Home Media Gallery and that of the 1140, but I hope this might help. I'll let everyone know how it works on my BDP-HD1 if I ever get it. :)

PooperScooper

12-30-06, 09:47 AM

Regarding DVI, the Pioneer is the like the Sony. The setup menu allows you to chose the color space setting. Choices are YCbCr, 16-235 or 0-255. I chose 16-235 and it works perfectly. Per DVE the unit (a Sony S1) shows btb and wtw. NOTE however, when the Sony is turned off it reverts to 0-255 which the Pioneer manual says is the default. I have to reset the Sony every time it is turned on!! Hopefully, Pioneer fixed this as part of their extended QC effort.Thanks! I can live with having to reset the color format as long as I get correct video to my DVI based display.

larry

joerod

12-30-06, 10:16 AM

JUST ARRIVED! Initial impressions (without turning it on) are it does have a very nice build quality to it. Also, my build date says December 2006! I also like the manual. Well done and they make it easy to understand. Alright, I must get going so I can go put it thru the paces... :)

drhankz

12-30-06, 10:25 AM

obie_fl

12-30-06, 10:27 AM

christefan

12-30-06, 11:42 AM

Have you tried Windows Media Player 11? I don't have my BDP-HD1 yet (supposedly due on January 8th from Tweeter), but I do have a Pioneer Elite PRO-1140 TV that has Home Media Gallery. It is able to "see" my Windows XP laptop with Windows Media Player 11, to play MP3 files, to display jpeg format photos, and to play HD WMV video clips downloaded from Microsoft's site.

No, I certainly don't work for Microsoft - every other computer in the house is a Mac. Just wanted to point out that after not being able to find a current Windows Media Connect to download, some further reading led me to download the latest Windows Media Player 11, and after a few steps to enable sharing, I got my Home Media Gallery to work.

I obviously have no idea about what differences, if any, there are between the BDP-HD1's Home Media Gallery and that of the 1140, but I hope this might help. I'll let everyone know how it works on my BDP-HD1 if I ever get it. :)

Running 2 computers with lots of storage and a variety of saved ts files. Media player 11 is neccessary because they incorporated media connect into it so there is NO seperate download of 'connect'. Hooked up the Pioneer to the lan through the network box that the 2 computers are attached to-no go-later tried just the big machine in the den as a direct connect to the Pioneer. Asus 2895 dual Opteron server board, 2 -254 Opterons, 4 gb of memory, lots of available drive space, fresh install of Media Player, enable sharing to the Pioneer, added some folders to sharing via Media Player, a couple of reboots to get the PIoneer to see the computer after adjustments. If I select a movie file to play (MPEG not TS) from the Pioneer it crashes the computer with a stop error/blue screen--haven't checked the log yet to see what error is being reported but it definately isn't plug and play. When the Pioneer was hooked up to a network box and both computers it wouldn't see either one (Home Media Gallery) selection is greyed out rather then available, that's with firewalls turned off and/or all the ports TCP/UDP that media connect needs opened according to the instructions in the Media Player help files. Haven't tried Vista yet, it supposedly has version 4 of connect in it vs version 2 in Media Player 11 but that will get tried this weekend probably---I was really counting on this function to work it would simplify watching sat programs and movies that got recorded to a server in my setup so I'm still trying-thanks for the help/interest in the problem ;)

Don H

12-30-06, 12:18 PM

Just got mine today with a MFD of Nov 2006. Shipped from Long Beach Ca to Hazlet NJ.

Has separate box inside that contains remote, cables, two BR movies and manual. Classy.

Cabinet build about the same as the Sony. Has a front that pulls open and has a sticker with the letters dlna certified (playsforsure).

I pluged it in, hit the standby on remote waited until display read powered on. Maybe 90 sec. Opened drawer and inserted Stealth and hit play. Menue was as sharp as I've seen on any player. On a 1 to 10 scale 10 being the best I would rate the Panasonic I saw in BB a 8.5 and the Sony (which I returned due to price not PQ) a 9 and the Pioneer a solid 10.

I ask the salesman if had heard of any complaints about the Sony and he replyed that they sold all he had (nine) and there were no problems reported and he is the manager so he would know. They ordered 12 Pioneer and only got one, which is mine now. Merry Xmas to me.

My tv is a 61' Elite plasma with HDMI input. Reciever is a VSX-59TXI.

Now I'll take time to read the manual.

Later

John Ballentine

12-30-06, 01:10 PM

alexortega

12-30-06, 03:30 PM

Alex, for my own list of differences that I can spot between the players, see here: http://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php?p=36861&postcount=18
I think I'm as objective and even-handed as possible.

Thanks very comprehensive!....you know you can always keep the Panny and use what ever player you see as more superior for the particular BD Disc you intend to play...

I can also bet that CES 2007 would have an influencing factor on whatever decision you make. Surely some G2 Blu-Ray units would have to be announced...and how long can it be before Yamaha, Denon and Marantz join the party?

bferr1

12-30-06, 03:39 PM

Thanks very comprehensive!....Yeah, but like joerod says, it all really boils down to PQ. If there is a noticeable improvement in the Pioneer over the Panny, it'll make whatever decision I come to that much harder.

joerod

12-30-06, 04:54 PM

I am taking a break! I have been at it for about 4 hours now. I was drawn into watching a couple of the movies (more than I planned to) when I was doing those comparisons. And the odd thing is it was usually when I was playing the Blu ray disc on the Pioneer. Now so far I can say the picture Q differences are subtle, the average person would either not notice or not care. But I would say they are there. I really do like this Pioneer player thugh, being able to change the output from the remote is much easier than having to always go to the set up menu on the panny. Speaking of MENU the Pioneer may have the best looking GUI I have ever seen. You can tell they are done in true HD. :eek: I am also liking very much what I have seen so far playing SD dvds. Both with and without my crystalio II. Sorry for not going into much detail yet but I will definitely do it in my next post. I can say now I do like the Panny (very much) but as far as for my Theater set up the Pioneer will be front and center. It is very fast to load and the response time is right on. I do not know if it is worth it for everybody to switch to this unit. It depends on your set up. Each unit has different bells and whistles. The Pioneer is a tweakers dream though. Being able to hit display to see every drop of info is a very nice feature (more on that later). Overall so far the picture quality is excellent and if anyone would dissagree I would have to question their set up. To put it bluntly if you want the BEST of both formats I would have to give the nod to the Pioneer (Blu ray) and expect to do the same for the XA2(HD DVD) next week. Also I should point out that there was a slip inside asking to register the unit for warranty and for future updates... Of course they weren't specific but I think that is a good sign. I must get back down there (I spent to much time watching Kingdom Of Heaven and Little Man on the Pioneer). Oh and so far not one single glitch! :)

Rob Tomlin

12-30-06, 05:00 PM

Thanks for the initial report Joe.

If you get a chance, I would like to know if you notice any difference between 1080p/24 and 1080p/60 straight to the Ruby.

drhankz

12-30-06, 05:14 PM

Oh and so far not one single glitch! :)

Thanks for the update JOE:

Like Rob - I think it would be great to compare the two players
NOT GOING THOUGH your Video Processor at all.

It is possible your VP is IMPROVING things for both so the differences
are SUBTLE because of the VP and not the player.

After all not everyone has a VP [GRIN]!

Remember JOE - if you have the Pioneer set to DIRECT - the output
resolution changes automatically to the native resolution of the DVD.

madkaw

12-30-06, 05:17 PM

I am drooling till january the 8th

joerod

12-30-06, 06:11 PM

Rob I am going to do that comparison next. And drhankz I have been going back and forth with the VP so far. I really plan to try the 480i over HDMI tonite as well... Back in! :)

Rob Tomlin

12-30-06, 07:17 PM

Thanks Joe.

Walkamo

12-30-06, 08:45 PM

Can you new owners verify this thing can't play CDs? I guess I'm still holding out hope. I just can't see paying that kind of money for a player that can't play CD, SACD or DVD-A like the 79AVi can. Would also like to hear more about people's experience with DLNA. Do you have to use Windows Media player 11? What about Linux or third party servers?

Hi Obie,

I can assure you that the player does not play CD's.. Also, the player will work with any DLNA certified server software.. I currently have a linux PC running the Twonkyvision server, Windows XP running Windows Media Connect, Windows Vista running Windows Media Player 11, and a MacBook running Twonkyvision..

All of them work fine....

Chris

christefan

12-31-06, 01:04 AM

Hi Obie,

I can assure you that the player does not play CD's.. Also, the player will work with any DLNA certified server software.. I currently have a linux PC running the Twonkyvision server, Windows XP running Windows Media Connect, Windows Vista running Windows Media Player 11, and a MacBook running Twonkyvision..

All of them work fine....

Chris

Great to hear that you have the Pioneer DLNA working in four instances-but I continue to have problems with this feature. I select and build workstations so I'm not a computer idiot, and while I haven't been able to put in a lot of time yet to correct the problems (assuming they are correctable) it's still a no go here; which for real functionality people are going to have be to able to plug in the system and get it to work without suddenly becoming a computer technician.

I needed to use the server in the den today for recordings so I connected the PIoneer back into a broadband router with four ports-1 for the machine in the living room running XP, 1 in the den which I described in the last post about my reactions to the GREAT playback and these connect issues, one for the Toshiba A1 so it has an internet connections for upgrades and one for the Pioneer. Address is set correctly in the PIoneer to auto and the 'home media gallery' function is greyed out becasue it is not seeing either computer on this lan. Tried rebooting the living room machine to a Vista Ultimate partition from Xp sp2 and that didn't change that the Pioneer still wouldn't recognize either machine and the Vista partition wouldn't see the Pioneer in Media Player 11 sharing function.

I'll be working on the connect problem and research what stop error it caused on the server in the den by looking through the error log and dump but I'm still saying the DLNA is not reaady for prime time. The server in the den is capable of recording two streams, editing another, having several programs up and handling the load, there is no reason a command from the Pioneer through the network should crash the machine with not much running on it at the time of the remote command to play a movie through the PIoneer DLNA function was issued. Turning off the Pioneer didn't change this lack of function and neither did a timed (30 sec) unplug of the unit. The only functionality I've gotten so far is a direct connection to one machine and when a play command was issued from HMG it crashed the connected machine.

Adding this after the post was put up-watched a couple of films tonight that I'd seen on the PS3 and I've studied the performance of the Samsung,Panasonic and Sony players and I'm still going to go with the Pioneer is definitely deliverying the best picture-another member called the differences subtle but I'm feeling like there are immediate, indentifiable improvements to picture quality through the Elite player-I've seen and recalled differences within a few minutes on anything I've played.

jacovn

12-31-06, 04:45 AM

Walkamo,
Can you tell which file formats it is supporting ?
For example H.264 in a TS container ?

md1953

12-31-06, 06:18 AM

Not sure where to put this question...I want to take advantage of the Media Gallery functionality of the BDP-HD1, but my wireless router is upstairs and my set-up is downstairs in the living room. Can you daisy-chain wireless routers? Running a Cat 5 cable is out of the question. Thanks in advance.

obie_fl

12-31-06, 09:46 AM

I can assure you that the player does not play CD's.. Also, the player will work with any DLNA certified server software.. I currently have a linux PC running the Twonkyvision server, Windows XP running Windows Media Connect, Windows Vista running Windows Media Player 11, and a MacBook running Twonkyvision..

All of them work fine....

ChrisThanks Chris. I'll have to wait for a second generation Elite Blu-ray as I'd really hoped to replace my 79AVi. In the mean time I just picked up a PS3 to tide me over.

HTMan34

12-31-06, 10:52 AM

BenDover

12-31-06, 10:57 AM

Walkamo (aka, Chris),

Setting aside whether in fact Pioneer is going to provide a firmware upgrade to allow the Pio BD player to fully decode multi-channel advanced audio codec material, can you at least answer whether the current Pio BD player has the necessary hardware/software support to permit this should Pio decide to upgrade the player via firmware?

I think I would buy just knowing that at a minimum it IS POSSIBLE even though there would be no guarantee that Pio has plans to do it.

I think you've posted that you continue to push to get this done, which has certain implications in my mind: 1) the player physically can be upgraded via firmware; and 2) Pio currently does not plan on providing such an upgrade to this unit but instead will offer it in an upcoming 2d gen unit.

Anything on this you can offer would be much appreciated...thanks

drhankz

12-31-06, 01:50 PM

1) the player physically can be upgraded via firmware;

At least I know that much - it can be upgraded with a supplied disc
from Pioneer.

What will be Upgradable - I DO NOT KNOW!

chuckken

12-31-06, 03:43 PM

Walkamo's silence tells me all I need to know. Come on guys, wake up and read the writing on the wall. He knows it will not be upgradable, otherwise he would respond...I'll be waiting for second generation also....If there even is one!... :D

Ken H

12-31-06, 04:26 PM

Walkamo's silence tells me all I need to know. Come on guys, wake up and read the writing on the wall. He knows it will not be upgradable, otherwise he would respond...This is a very poor assumption. There could be a number of reasons why there is no response.

I'll be waiting for second generation also....If there even is one!... :DWant to bet? I didn't think so.

In the mean time, stop trolling.

joerod

12-31-06, 04:34 PM

Since I have guests coming in here any minute now I will have to brief. I have been playing with the Pioneer since yesterday morning. Doing 1080p/24 on its own proved to me it is THE BEST Blu ray player on the market. The picture is better than the Panasonic but not by a lot. In fact I would say it is 5-7% better. Now I bet 80% of consumers would not be able to tell but it is there. Pioneer did a great job on this unit. I think mine being a December build date helped insure it would not have ny glitches. My Wife even mentioned at how great the start up screen with the Pioneer logo looked.:eek: Now believe me when I say she has never said a word before about a menu screen ever! And she has been thru plenty of dvd players... To many to count! Now is it worth it for Panny owners to switch to it? It all depends on yor set up. I like the Pioneer better because I can do 480i over HDMI which makes SD dvds look incredible going thru my crystalio II. I also like being able to change the resolution via the remote. The Panny does have 7.1 analog outs as most of you know but that trade off is not worth it to me. I know Panasonic has announced the new firmware for April and hopefully Pioneer will do the same. Inside they did have info about signing up for updates. Of course they were not specific. Both units have a nice look to them. Of course this depends on your tastes. Some will want to squeeze out every last drop of better picture Q. That is also the group where I fall into. Not just for Blu ray but also for SD. If anyone has any specific questions feel free to PM me. But in conclusion I am very happy with this ELITE unit and think Pioneer did a great job with The flagship BLU RAY player. If one wants the best in picture Q with these HD formats I think the Pioneer and the soon to be released XA2 will definitely achieve that. This will be the first ever Pioneer Elite product I am keeping in my theater! :)

christefan

12-31-06, 04:38 PM

An update from a little fooling around today. Trying something that worked for Walkamo I installed Twonkymedia on the machine in the living rrom in an XPsp2 partition; gave the Pioneer and the computer a little time to say hi and with a direct connection between the two HMG came up. Tried displaying some pictures first which went fine although was on the slow side (probably downrezing to fit the HD screen dimensions) and then the big test some video files. While I was able to easily play a hard drive copy of a SD DVD with picture and sound, when I tried to play an MPEG2 file from a sat recording off DISH network the picture is just fine (even in HD) but there is NO sound, an interesting problem. Made adjustments to the sound configuration in the Pioneer but to no avail; there's no sound from the l/r analog outs to a stereo system and no sound via the HDMI connection to the Qualia either--so more work to figure out what is going on with this-wishing everyone on the forums a HAPPY NEW YEAR-

chuckken

12-31-06, 05:49 PM

This is a very poor assumption. There could be a number of reasons why there is no response.

Want to bet? I didn't think so.

In the mean time, stop trolling.

I don't even know what "trolling" means...(nor do I want to)...Ask Robert over at VE if I just cancelled my Pioneer Elite order...I love both formats, I even ordered the HD-XA2 from Robert due to ship on the 3rd...I have the PS3 but want to dump it because of no IR and I want to be able to incorporate my Blu-Ray into my MX-3000...(unfortunately, that can't happen)...So now I simply want a Blu-ray player that actually plays "all" blu-ray movies and is for sure going to be upgradable...Robert told me 2 days ago that Pioneer has actually said they "are not" going to offer an update for new audio codecs...If I were in the position of Chris, I can assure you that you would hear more than silence...Nuff said... :D

BenDover

12-31-06, 06:00 PM

At least I know that much - it can be upgraded with a supplied disc
from Pioneer.

What will be Upgradable - I DO NOT KNOW!

i knew that much as well :)

i meant upgradeable to support full decoding of the advanced audio codecs via a firmware upgrade...meaning not that it has the physical ability to accept a firmware upgrade in general, but if it has the hardware/software that would permit it to decode the advanced audio codecs IF upgraded via firmware :)

John Ballentine

12-31-06, 06:25 PM

Robert told me 2 days ago that Pioneer has actually said they "are not" going to offer an update for new audio codecs

Wonder if this is true??? :confused:

drhankz

12-31-06, 06:27 PM

i knew that much as well :)

i meant upgradeable to support full decoding of the advanced audio codecs via a firmware upgrade...meaning not that it has the physical ability to accept a firmware upgrade in general, but if it has the hardware/software that would permit it to decode the advanced audio codecs IF upgraded via firmware :)

I knew what you meant Mr. Bend Over :cool:

But I could only say what I knew for sure and didn't
want to speculate on what I don't know for sure :o !

drhankz

12-31-06, 06:32 PM

Since I have guests coming in here any minute now

I am very happy with this ELITE unit and think Pioneer did a great job with The flagship BLU RAY player. If one wants the best in picture Q with these HD formats I think the Pioneer and the soon to be released XA2 will definitely achieve that. This will be the first ever Pioneer Elite product I am keeping in my theater! :)

Thanks Joe for your diligent testing.

Now PARTY hard until NEXT YEAR [GRIN]!

Only 4-1/2 hours to go!

chuckken

12-31-06, 07:19 PM

Wonder if this is true??? :confused:

Robert personally finds it hard to believe that Pioneer "would not" offer updates for the audio, but told me they actully said they would not...So again, Pioneer seems to be very "unsupportive" when it comes to their clientelle...(kinda pisses me off)... :mad:

ekdo

12-31-06, 07:41 PM

Robert personally finds it hard to believe that Pioneer "would not" offer updates for the audio, but told me they actully said they would not...So again, Pioneer seems to be very "unsupportive" when it comes to their clientelle...(kinda pisses me off)... :mad:

Quite a few class action lawsuits against Pioneer for non performance, so no wonder they are being careful!

madkaw

12-31-06, 08:41 PM

bferr1

01-01-07, 01:56 AM

Even though panasonic said they were going to unless it was in writing (maybe it was) the panny could be in the same boat as the Pioneer and Sony.Panasonic has it in writing. There was a mail-in registration card for the DTS-HD and DTHD upgrades.

units

01-01-07, 02:49 AM

Look at it this way, if they dont you have grounds for a replacement because it does not do what the directions say and that is play BD. I have faith that they will though.

I have the Pioneer preordered, and I too hope the audio codecs will be updated; however, this is easily the most illogical statement I've seen today...

steviec

01-01-07, 09:04 AM

All I can do is hope that they do. Even though panasonic said they were going to unless it was in writing (maybe it was) the panny could be in the same boat as the Pioneer and Sony. I am not going to worry about it. Cant wait for it to get here. Look at it this way, if they dont you have grounds for a replacement because it does not do what the directions say and that is play BD. I have faith that they will though.
look at it this way.
there is no provision stating that bluray has to have onboard decoders but hd-dvd is mandated to include them in every player.
I can almost guarantee you that pioneer ,sony will want you to buy one of the new recievers that will decode the advanced audio.In fact you will have to do this to get the new audio.
Panasonic is the one who went their own route and did install the advanced decoders you will usually find only in the hd-dvd players.
So if you own the pioneer or sony be prepared to buy a new reciever.
Note: this is one reason the panasonic was so expensive.
new audio:
hd-dvd requires no new reciever just one with 5.1 analog inputs
bluray requires a new reciever excluding the panasonic dmp-bd10

HTMan34

01-01-07, 10:30 AM

Clark Burk

01-01-07, 10:32 AM

look at it this way.
there is no provision stating that bluray has to have onboard decoders but hd-dvd is mandated to include them in every player.
I can almost guarantee you that pioneer ,sony will want you to buy one of the new recievers that will decode the advanced audio.In fact you will have to do this to get the new audio.
Panasonic is the one who went their own route and did install the advanced decoders you will usually find only in the hd-dvd players.
So if you own the pioneer or sony be prepared to buy a new reciever.
Note: this is one reason the panasonic was so expensive.
new audio:
hd-dvd requires no new reciever just one with 5.1 analog inputs
bluray requires a new reciever excluding the panasonic dmp-bd10

I thought the Sony S1 and the Pioneer Elite lack the HDMI 1.3 that is necessary to carry the new audio codecs undecoded using HDMI? Even with a new receiver the Pioneer and Sony will be unable to process the new codecs.

madkaw

01-01-07, 10:52 AM

I have the Pioneer preordered, and I too hope the audio codecs will be updated; however, this is easily the most illogical statement I've seen today...
Its not illogical, if it wont play movies such as the Decent, and some others yet to be found then they have to give you a replacement. The player is advertised and in the manual as playing BD. If they up and decide that they will not provide this until the second generation then you have the right to get your unit replaced. Bottom line is if the player does not do what is advertised then you have the right to obtain one that does. On them.

drhankz

01-01-07, 11:32 AM

if it wont play movies such as the Decent,

And What IF -- the Finger Pointing goes towards Lionsgate?

Is that Pioneer's Fault?

learning101

01-01-07, 11:55 AM

And What IF -- the Finger Pointing goes towards Lionsgate?

Is that Pioneer's Fault?

I had sent Chris a PM about this and he sent me a reply. I didn't post it, thinking he would want to post it himself later. Since I don't think he did, I thought he wouldn't mind if I copied it here:
Beginning of info from Chris ---------------------------------
I am aware of the Descent not playing, however it appears to be an authoring error. The file which contains the instructions on what to do are located in the root directory of the main .jar file. These instructions are supposed to be located in a specific directory.

I am working with Lionsgate about this issue. I have every BD disc that is available worldwide and personally tested each one that was available with the player prior to shipping.

Please give me a few days to get an official response from Pioneer Japan and Lionsgate...

Thanks,

Chris
End of info from Chris ---------------------------------

chuckken

01-01-07, 12:36 PM

I'll bet if all Sony and Pioneer owners were to take their units back and have their money refunded, you can bet your azz those companys would start jumping through hoops and correct all these issues really quick!... ;) Power to the People!

bferr1

01-01-07, 12:47 PM

look at it this way.
there is no provision stating that bluray has to have onboard decoders but hd-dvd is mandated to include them in every player.
I can almost guarantee you that pioneer ,sony will want you to buy one of the new recievers that will decode the advanced audio.In fact you will have to do this to get the new audio.
Panasonic is the one who went their own route and did install the advanced decoders you will usually find only in the hd-dvd players.
So if you own the pioneer or sony be prepared to buy a new reciever.
Note: this is one reason the panasonic was so expensive.
new audio:
hd-dvd requires no new reciever just one with 5.1 analog inputs
bluray requires a new reciever excluding the panasonic dmp-bd10Just a couple of quick points: 1) receivers that will decode the advanced audio require a player with HDMI 1.3 to pass the undecoded bitstream-- neither the Sony nor Pioneer have HDMI 1.3; and 2) I think the reason why the Panasonic player is so expensive is that it uses the Panasonic BD burner drive as transport, which itself had a list price of $999-- I don't think audio upgradebability was a reason, or the sole reason.

drhankz

01-01-07, 12:47 PM

I had sent Chris a PM about this and he sent me a reply. I didn't post it, thinking he would want to post it himself later.

I will be surprised if Chris is HAPPY you posted
the PM that he sent you IN CONFIDENCE!

It is really up to Chris to post this info when he
feels it is appropriate.

JFR0317

01-01-07, 02:40 PM

You might want to reread bferr1's post. I think he is saying that the Panasonic uses a Panasonic BD burner drive, not that the Pioneer does.

bferr1

01-01-07, 04:53 PM

You might want to reread bferr1's post. I think he is saying that the Panasonic uses a Panasonic BD burner drive, not that the Pioneer does. This is what I'm saying, but are you responding to another post that's been deleted? :confused:

JFR0317

01-01-07, 05:56 PM

This is what I'm saying, but are you responding to another post that's been deleted? :confused:
Yes, there was. Looks like he misread your post, then saw mine, and then deleted.

alexortega

01-01-07, 06:45 PM

learning101

01-01-07, 10:21 PM

I will be surprised if Chris is HAPPY you posted
the PM that he sent you IN CONFIDENCE!

It is really up to Chris to post this info when he
feels it is appropriate.

His PM did not say anything about being in confidence.

Chris, if you read this and I was wrong in trying to be helpful (and supportive of Pioneer by trying to spread the word that this was not a player issue), please let me know.

It will not happen again.

I actually don't think I will ever post anything again, anyway. Thanks in advance to those who have been, and will continue to be, helpful. I just am not enough in tune with the politics of this forum to know what to say and when to say it.

bferr1

01-01-07, 11:25 PM

I actually don't think I will ever post anything again, anyway. Thanks in advance to those who have been, and will continue to be, helpful. I just am not enough in tune with the politics of this forum to know what to say and when to say it.I'm coming to the same conclusion for myself. :(

jsf

01-01-07, 11:39 PM

Rob Tomlin

01-01-07, 11:57 PM

bfdtv

01-02-07, 12:07 AM

I think the most logical thing to do concerning the Pioneer Elite is not to buy it until and unless support for the advanced audio is provided. It is a key part of the Blu-ray experience in the future. If you must have a Blu-ray player, get the cheapest, maybe a PS3, keep it a year and sell it for maybe 50%. Then the gen 2 units will be out for a while and will come down some in price. I have Pioneer Elite equipment, and would like to buy this, but I would feel very much taken advantage of to pay the price of this without the audio.BINGO!!!

I too own Pioneer Elite equipment, and I would love to own this player. But not without support of the new audio codecs, especially at this price.

If Pioneer issues a FW update to enable the new audio codecs, there is a strong possibility that I would purchase this player. Otherwise, I have no problem using my PS3 until the 2nd gen Elite is released (which will presumable have the new audio codecs from day one).Couldn't have said it better myself.

I'm also using the PS3 until the right player comes along. For me, the right player has HDMI 1.3, built-in decoding for all new audio codecs, 1080p24 output, and BD-Java Live profile support. If I am going to spend $1000-$1500 on a player, I want it use it for more than a year without feeling the upgrade bug.

Anyone who buys a player like the Pioneer without advanced audio support is going to want to replace it within the next year if they care anything at all about high-quality surround audio.

units

01-02-07, 02:04 AM

Its not illogical, if it wont play movies such as the Decent, and some others yet to be found then they have to give you a replacement. The player is advertised and in the manual as playing BD. If they up and decide that they will not provide this until the second generation then you have the right to get your unit replaced. Bottom line is if the player does not do what is advertised then you have the right to obtain one that does. On them.

I really don't want to get into a fruitless argument with you about this, but since you insist on posting these generalities as if they are fact, I must respond:

So far, the vast majority of high def players released for both formats have at one time or another had an inability to play at least one disk.

Furthermore, you continue to say "you have the right" to do this and that...could you please allude to the legal document by a governing body that guarantees all of these "rights" you keep referring to?

Here in the real world, when things go shady with products or their performance, the only real recourse is litigation, which itself is not cheap, has no guarantee of success, and MIGHT at some point force a manufacturer to correct a mistake of some kind.

As was always the case, as a consumer, the best you can do is attempt to make an informed decision about a potential purchase, as you really have no "rights" concerning swift resolution of an issue arrising from an unimformed purchase, thus the only truly applicable legal standard in this type of situation: "caveat emptor" or "buyer beware".

Regards.

Ray Cathode

01-02-07, 06:21 AM

His PM did not say anything about being in confidence.

Chris, if you read this and I was wrong in trying to be helpful (and supportive of Pioneer by trying to spread the word that this was not a player issue), please let me know.

It will not happen again.

I actually don't think I will ever post anything again, anyway. Thanks in advance to those who have been, and will continue to be, helpful. I just am not enough in tune with the politics of this forum to know what to say and when to say it.

Please do not go away. I was given (his) email address by Chris himself and I never received an answer. Your post answered a question that many of us that purchased the HD1 have had. Your post may be the most informative of this thread. DRH has a valid point (about PM emails), but with no instructions to NOT to release the info, you are not to blame for any breach of trust.

Chris should have answered the private emails he received from several of us (which) he did not. At least I now have SOME info to go on.

Don't let the abrasive atmosphere on AVS run you off. This is one of the more civil threads on this site.

AVS has always been rough and tumble (and the best source of HT education), but the gamer war has spilled over into the format war and many feel they are locked in a life and death "online game"... at the height of the great battle... fragging anyone that disagrees. It puts everyone on edge (understandably)

Thank you for posting and PLEASE stick around.

BenDover

01-02-07, 06:52 AM

learning101

01-02-07, 08:42 AM

Please do not go away. I was given (his) email address by Chris himself and I never received an answer. Your post answered a question that many of us that purchased the HD1 have had. Your post may be the most informative of this thread. DRH has a valid point (about PM emails), but with no instructions to NOT to release the info, you are not to blame for any breach of trust.

Chris should have answered the private emails he received from several of us (which) he did not. At least I now have SOME info to go on.

Don't let the abrasive atmosphere on AVS run you off. This is one of the more civil threads on this site.

AVS has always been rough and tumble (and the best source of HT education), but the gamer war has spilled over into the format war and many feel they are locked in a life and death "online game"... at the height of the great battle... fragging anyone that disagrees. It puts everyone on edge (understandably)

Thank you for posting and PLEASE stick around.

Thank you.....and BenDover......for your replies. After reading drhankz's response, I was very concerned that my posting might cause Chris to think twice about providing us with information - which would have been a HORRIBLE thing to have done.

I expect that someone will ask why other players could play Descent if the instructions were in the wrong place. I wonder if the other players don't bother to access the instructions.....(if that is even possible).

Anyway, my BDP-HD1 remains on pre-order. I realize I am another early adopter. I realize I will not have HDMI 1.3, and I will not have the advance codecs.

But I also feel I will have the best BD player, and the best PQ, so I will be grateful for what I will have. By the time the 2nd generation player is announced, I may have worn out the first one anyway.

Again, thanks for the kind replies, now I don't feel that I should be silent.

drhankz

01-02-07, 09:08 AM

After reading drhankz's response, I was very concerned that my posting might cause Chris to think twice about providing us with information - which would have been a HORRIBLE thing to have done.

PLEASE NOTE - I'm not PICKING ON ANYONE.

But I would like to offer my TWO CENTS worth of advice since I have lots
and lots of arrows in my back from EXPERIENCE. That is what they
call it when we get OLD [GRIN]!

I have founded 4 high-tech startups. In the good old days we could talk
about our company's in public arenas. Those days are long gone. As
officers, directors and even employees of Companies - we all need to be
EXTREMELY Careful what we say in public about the Company we work
for. IT IS CALLED INSIDER KNOWLEDGE. If that insider knowledge
gets to some people and not others - then watch out the lawyers are
ready to have a field day with you and your Company.

Chris takes his job in has hand anytime he posts something here. He also
takes his job in his hand anytime he sends a PM to anyone. I'm sure his
responses are well thought out to HELP and SUPPORT us all without
getting himself or Pioneer or a partner Company in trouble. There are times
when he does not respond. That doesn't mean he is ignoring you - but he
probably can not respond - FOR LEGAL REASONS.

My only advice is - lets be happy Chris can contribute and not push any
envelopes that would endanger that contribution.

As a current CEO and former board member of a PUBLIC Company - what
we say can get us ALL FIRED at any level in a Company. I have only been
fired 5 times - So I know first hand. It is NEVER FUN!

obie_fl

01-02-07, 01:06 PM

Couldn't have said it better myself.

I'm also using the PS3 until the right player comes along. For me, the right player has HDMI 1.3, built-in decoding for all new audio codecs, 1080p24 output, and BD-Java Live profile support. If I am going to spend $1000-$1500 on a player, I want it use it for more than a year without feeling the upgrade bug.

Anyone who buys a player like the Pioneer without advanced audio support is going to want to replace it within the next year if they care anything at all about high-quality surround audio.I don't want to flog a dead horse but hopefully Pioneer can use it for market research. :D Make me number three, I really wanted to replace my 79AVi with one of these but with all the above caveats and the lack of CD, SACD, and DVD-A just made it too large of a pill to swallow. I've also gone to the PS3 as a stop gap for now.

BenDover

01-02-07, 02:24 PM

I don't want to flog a dead horse but hopefully Pioneer can use it for market research. :D Make me number three, I really wanted to replace my 79AVi with one of these but with all the above caveats and the lack of CD, SACD, and DVD-A just made it too large of a pill to swallow. I've also gone to the PS3 as a stop gap for now.

yep, i picked up a ps3 on new year's day; also ordered the new oppo 981 for archived stuff i have in xvid/divx and that also includes dvd-a so i should be set until a more inclusive standalone bd player happens along...no comment either way from pioneer regarding upgradeability for advanced audio codec support just put me off for now...hope they upgrade the ps3 to do 24p off the disc output...my Pro-FHD1 is just screaming for 24p input ;)

JlgLaw

01-02-07, 05:11 PM

PLEASE NOTE - I'm not PICKING ON ANYONE.

But I would like to offer my TWO CENTS worth of advice since I have lots
and lots of arrows in my back from EXPERIENCE. That is what they
call it when we get OLD [GRIN]!

I have founded 4 high-tech startups. In the good old days we could talk
about our company's in public arenas. Those days are long gone. As
officers, directors and even employees of Companies - we all need to be
EXTREMELY Careful what we say in public about the Company we work
for. IT IS CALLED INSIDER KNOWLEDGE. If that insider knowledge
gets to some people and not others - then watch out the lawyers are
ready to have a field day with you and your Company.

Chris takes his job in has hand anytime he posts something here. He also
takes his job in his hand anytime he sends a PM to anyone. I'm sure his
responses are well thought out to HELP and SUPPORT us all without
getting himself or Pioneer or a partner Company in trouble. There are times
when he does not respond. That doesn't mean he is ignoring you - but he
probably can not respond - FOR LEGAL REASONS.

My only advice is - lets be happy Chris can contribute and not push any
envelopes that would endanger that contribution.

As a current CEO and former board member of a PUBLIC Company - what
we say can get us ALL FIRED at any level in a Company. I have only been
fired 5 times - So I know first hand. It is NEVER FUN!

As an attorney and former litigator (now focused on a new A/V business :D ) you make some valid points. Although there tends to be more concern when the company is publicly traded, there are always concerns with the laws of agency and the impact employees can have on your business. I know there are companies (I deal for some) that will not allow any employee to join/post on any forum.

To learning101, stick around, if you read enough of drhankz's posts you'll see he's a solid guy with good insight that probably didn't want the comment (although valid IMO) to generate all this chatter. Keep posting, everyone's considered opinion has value.

Jim

drhankz

01-02-07, 09:32 PM

As an attorney and former litigator (now focused on a new A/V business :D ) you make some valid points.
Jim

Thanks Jim:

It is easy for us AV Enthusiast to post whatever we feel like.

But when a Factory Representative comes on here to help us
all - we need to respect his position and not jeopardize it.

eldithomaso

01-02-07, 09:51 PM

This discussion is all well and good. It seems that some feel they betrayed Chris' confidence. Pioneer needs a public spokesperson that can comment on the quality and inclusions or omissions in their current product line. Chris can't troll this forum 7 days a week as many of us do so his PMs may address some non-universal issues. As a PR person that is Chris' job - even in his appearances at this forum to answer questions. This is no different than a booth at CEDIA or a store appearance.

Chris should be pleased to read the comments of the users and buyers in this forum. He should be pleased to share what he can with each of us who is disappointed in the Pioneer Blu-ray line. I for one am a Pioneer "fanboy" with thousands invested in Elite gear. I, however, make no bones about it when commenting on the forum about the current state of the Elite gear. The absence of CD playback, the absence of advanced audio coding, the absence of SACD/DVD-A playback and i-Link and the exorbitant price charged for this omission in the name of what 1080p24?

Express yourselves - it's free country. Do it in a civil tone and be honest. If Chris sends you a PM or if anyone sends you a PM don't share that - its a "Private" Message after all.

And for the record - if Chris is still reading this anymore - this Pioneer fanboy just abandoned Pioneer and bought a PS3. I have SACD playback and HDMI 1.3, oh and CD playback for about $600 less. If Sony gets their act in gear with software updates to the Cell and is muti-processors I may soon have DTS Master Audio too.

Pioneer didn't do it right with the BDP-HD1. I voted with my pocket book and won't hesitate to post my thoughts about its shortcomings in the forum. In fact I hope Chris reads about them and reports them to his superiors.

bfdtv - you have a private message...

ekdo

01-02-07, 11:47 PM

I read all these posts in this thread and it sounds like everybody is trying to flame Pioneer as they think they have Chris as an audience to hear their gripe.

Its just my observation as a non regular on this board. So don't flame.

Tho I will definitely be getting a Pioneer blu ray player once I get my voucher from Pioneer for the class action settlement for my X30.

Rob Tomlin

01-03-07, 12:17 AM

JlgLaw

01-03-07, 02:32 AM

I don't know if this was intentional or not, but that is really a funny post! :p

Caused me to re-read the post, you'r breaking me up Rob!!! :)

joerod

01-03-07, 06:13 AM

If most could see the great picture Q of this player they might not complain. :) 1080p/24:eek:

Free

01-03-07, 07:44 AM

Joe, so is your opinion, that feeding 1080/24 directly to the projector looks as good as, or better than feeding it through the Crystallio, or is there something else that the Crystallio does to the image to improve it, even when it is outputting 1080/24?

Ray Cathode

01-03-07, 08:59 AM

If most could see the great picture Q of this player they might not complain. :) 1080p/24:eek:

Amen brother. They can have my HD1 when they pry it from my cold, dead hands! :D

drhankz

01-03-07, 09:02 AM

Amen brother. They can have my HD1 when they pry it from my cold, dead hands! :D

ALSO AMEN Brother :)

HTMan34

01-03-07, 10:44 AM

If most could see the great picture Q of this player they might not complain. :) 1080p/24:eek:

100% agreed on that statement! Don't get me wrong, I would love to eventually have the HD1 decode DTS-HD MA and Dolby TrueHD internally, but uncompressed PCM audio is great too to go along with the excellent PQ from the Pioneer!

HTMan34

01-03-07, 10:46 AM

Amen brother. They can have my HD1 when they pry it from my cold, dead hands! :D

LOL! I feel the same way, mine is not going anywhere and nobody is going to take it!

Rob Tomlin

01-03-07, 11:08 AM

Caused me to re-read the post, you'r breaking me up Rob!!! :)

It just cracks me up how he is basically scolding us for "flaming" Pioneer about the lack of ability to decode the new audio formats, implying that we should just be happy with what Pioneer has given us......then he ends his post by saying he'll probably get one when he gets his money from the class action lawsuit against Pioneer!!!

Too funny.

Ray Cathode

01-03-07, 11:09 AM

ALSO AMEN Brother :)

:)

Ray Cathode

01-03-07, 11:18 AM

LOL! I feel the same way, mine is not going anywhere and nobody is going to take it!

Double Amen! :)

joerod

01-03-07, 03:12 PM

I still prefer sending it thru the crystalio II at 1080p then sending it straight to my pj. I can tweak it even more with the very flexible crystalio II which helps me achieve the most optimal setting. I have done the A/B comparison (1080i vs 1080p) thru the crystalio and I like the 1080p image a little better. Not by much but I do notice less noise in the picture. I think sending the source straight to the VP then tweaking a little is the best result (for me atleast). :)

cinemeccanica

01-03-07, 05:15 PM

In HD Guru review it 's written the pioneer player plays WMV-HD streams on a home network. Can it also play original WMV-HD DVDs?

WaldorfSalad

01-03-07, 05:20 PM

In HD Guru review it 's written the pioneer player plays WMV-HD streams on a home network. Can it also play original WMV-HD DVDs?I asked this same question a while back and IIRC the response from the Pioneer guy (Chris) was that it can only play WMV-HD across the network, not from a disc.

joerod

01-04-07, 12:00 AM

we watched Invincible Blu ray last nite and all I can say is WOW! :eek: It looked as good or better than many HD DVD titles on the Pioneer... Very impressive!

cinemeccanica

01-04-07, 05:15 AM

it can only play WMV-HD across the network, not from a disc.

thank you for your answer, it's what I suspected. Anyway, since it has an RJ45 input could it be conneted to a PC and play them from a PC? Or to a switch or router and play WMV-HD streams from PCs if they are sharing those files over a home network? I've also seen on Pioneer manual that this player plays MPEG-2 ts files (maybe these also over a home network) , this could be useful for playing the ATSC recordings capped on a PC

BenDover

01-04-07, 06:28 AM

anyone here that has the pio bd player also have a ps3? i'm wondering about the comparative pq performance?

Ray Cathode

01-04-07, 06:31 AM

we watched Invincible Blu ray last nite and all I can say is WOW! :eek: It looked as good or better than many HD DVD titles on the Pioneer... Very impressive!

I watched the "Searchers" last night and was absolutely blown away by the quality of a film made in the 50's! This thing popped off the screen like the Duke was going to charge into my Living Room! Ford was a Master and Wayne an incredible actor. This film left me wanting More More More! The extras are marvelous!

Bring it on from older films that hold up! This is my favorite film now (out of 57 BD's)! A real American Masterpiece in HD! Life is good! :)

jsf

01-04-07, 08:25 AM

anyone here that has the pio bd player also have a ps3? i'm wondering about the comparative pq performance?

Awhile back Chris from Pioneer wrote that he thought the Pioneer was better. :) You can do a search and see his exact words.

DVDO+WESTY=1080p

01-04-07, 08:30 AM

is tweeter still on for the 8th??? I hope so...

pifemaster

01-04-07, 09:18 AM

anyone here that has the pio bd player also have a ps3? i'm wondering about the comparative pq performance?
I had the ps3 up until yesterday when my Pioneer arrived. (I promised my son that he could have the ps3 at that time.)

I used Underworld Evolution & Black Hawk Down as my A/B comparison movies. Both players outputting 1080P-60 via HDMI to a Denon 4806CI (Up conversion OFF in the Denon). Denon connected via HDMI to Panny PTAX-100U. Projected on to a 96" Carada Screen.

I also read the older post by Chris @ Pioneer and have to disagree with him. I think the Pioneer's image output at 1080P-60 is 100% EQUAL to the PS3 (also outputting 1080P-60). I do NOT think the Pioneer is producing a BETTER image.

On the other hand the audio output on the PS3 beats the Pioneer - HANDS DOWN! When I watched BHD on the Pioneer the audio just did not compare to the audio through the PS3.

My other disappointment with the Pioneer is in regards the the "Home Media gallery" feature. As previously posted by someone else "I do not think this feature is ready for prime time." I tried for a couple of hours to get this feature working without success. I downloaded & installed WMP 11 with no luck and then tried TwonkyVision, also with no luck. I can not get the Pioneer to see any files on my HTPC. Eventually, I got so disgusted with it, I just gave up and un-installed the software from my HTPC.

The only advantage that the pioneer had (out of the box) over the PS3 was the remote. Not that the Pioneer remote is a great remote, just that it is not a gaming controller like the PS3. This could have been added to the PS3 for approximately $30.00.

My Conclusions:
-If I had been able to try the Pioneer prior to purchase, I would NOT have spent more than twice as much as the PS3.

-I did not think I would notice as much of a difference in audio as I as did.
If Pioneer does not provide a future firmware upgrade to take advantage of the advanced audio codecs, this will be the last Pioneer product that I will ever purchase.

Disclaimer:
The above post is based on MY OPINION. I do not have a display capable of accepting a 1080P-24 signal, so if this is an important feature TO YOU, then 'Your milage may vary".

Bob

BenDover

01-04-07, 09:46 AM

bferr1

01-04-07, 10:01 AM

is tweeter still on for the 8th??? I hope so...I was told yesterday it would be in the local warehouse on the 12th and would filter out to stores after that.

But hey, look on the bright side-- at least these delays are getting shorter... :o

HTMan34

01-04-07, 11:40 AM

I watched the "Searchers" last night and was absolutely blown away by the quality of a film made in the 50's! This thing popped off the screen like the Duke was going to charge into my Living Room! Ford was a Master and Wayne an incredible actor. This film left me wanting More More More! The extras are marvelous!

Bring it on from older films that hold up! This is my favorite film now (out of 57 BD's)! A real American Masterpiece in HD! Life is good! :)

I have to check out the "Searchers", would love to see the PQ in person. I watched "RV" last night. This was an older BD release, I think back in August. All I say is WOW! Looked great for an early BD release when everyone was saying that the early transfers were horrible. Also received 6 other movies yesterday from Amazon...have to check those out later. Briefly watched "Behind Enemy Lines" last night after "RV". Another winner! Even though the Pioneer can not decode DTS-HD MA yet, the DTS core on that movie is awesome!

RedSox04

01-04-07, 12:20 PM

is tweeter still on for the 8th??? I hope so...
I just called my local guy and he is saying the 12th of Jan with a secondary shipment of the 13th of Jan. :)

ADGrant

01-04-07, 01:08 PM

The only advantage that the pioneer had (out of the box) over the PS3 was the remote. Not that the Pioneer remote is a great remote, just that it is not a gaming controller like the PS3. This could have been added to the PS3 for approximately $30.00.

The PS3 remote issue is a little more complicated than that. The controller is Bluetooth based so it is not possible to use a Pronto or Harmony device instead.

Tolstoi

01-04-07, 01:11 PM

I have to check out the "Searchers", would love to see the PQ in person. I watched "RV" last night. This was an older BD release, I think back in August. All I say is WOW! Looked great for an early BD release when everyone was saying that the early transfers were horrible. Also received 6 other movies yesterday from Amazon...have to check those out later. Briefly watched "Behind Enemy Lines" last night after "RV". Another winner! Even though the Pioneer can not decode DTS-HD MA yet, the DTS core on that movie is awesome!

"yet"

Until proven otherwise we should be assuming that it will never decode DTS-HD and TrueHD.

dsinger

01-04-07, 03:49 PM

I just called my local guy and he is saying the 12th of Jan with a secondary shipment of the 13th of Jan. :)

Are those dates for being in the retail stores or in the warehouse? If warehouse we won't see them until the next week. @#$#%&* they must be using lame pack animals to deliver these!

antidata27

01-04-07, 03:51 PM

Ray Cathode

01-04-07, 04:20 PM

I have to check out the "Searchers", would love to see the PQ in person. I watched "RV" last night. This was an older BD release, I think back in August. All I say is WOW! Looked great for an early BD release when everyone was saying that the early transfers were horrible. Also received 6 other movies yesterday from Amazon...have to check those out later. Briefly watched "Behind Enemy Lines" last night after "RV". Another winner! Even though the Pioneer can not decode DTS-HD MA yet, the DTS core on that movie is awesome!

I watched RV a few nights ago. It did look really good. Funny movie also. Robin Williams talking about his ICBM had the gang rolling on the floor!

Searchers is a must see disc. I would HIGHLY recommend it! You will NOT believe your eyes.

I will check out BEL as soon as I receive it!

christefan

01-04-07, 05:26 PM

I had the ps3 up until yesterday when my Pioneer arrived. (I promised my son that he could have the ps3 at that time.)

I used Underworld Evolution & Black Hawk Down as my A/B comparison movies. Both players outputting 1080P-60 via HDMI to a Denon 4806CI (Up conversion OFF in the Denon). Denon connected via HDMI to Panny PTAX-100U. Projected on to a 96" Carada Screen.

I also read the older post by Chris @ Pioneer and have to disagree with him. I think the Pioneer's image output at 1080P-60 is 100% EQUAL to the PS3 (also outputting 1080P-60). I do NOT think the Pioneer is producing a BETTER image.

On the other hand the audio output on the PS3 beats the Pioneer - HANDS DOWN! When I watched BHD on the Pioneer the audio just did not compare to the audio through the PS3.

My other disappointment with the Pioneer is in regards the the "Home Media gallery" feature. As previously posted by someone else "I do not think this feature is ready for prime time." I tried for a couple of hours to get this feature working without success. I downloaded & installed WMP 11 with no luck and then tried TwonkyVision, also with no luck. I can not get the Pioneer to see any files on my HTPC. Eventually, I got so disgusted with it, I just gave up and un-installed the software from my HTPC.

The only advantage that the pioneer had (out of the box) over the PS3 was the remote. Not that the Pioneer remote is a great remote, just that it is not a gaming controller like the PS3. This could have been added to the PS3 for approximately $30.00.

My Conclusions:
-If I had been able to try the Pioneer prior to purchase, I would NOT have spent more than twice as much as the PS3.

-I did not think I would notice as much of a difference in audio as I as did.
If Pioneer does not provide a future firmware upgrade to take advantage of the advanced audio codecs, this will be the last Pioneer product that I will ever purchase.

Disclaimer:
The above post is based on MY OPINION. I do not have a display capable of accepting a 1080P-24 signal, so if this is an important feature TO YOU, then 'Your milage may vary".

Bob

Being the person who said HMG is not ready for prime time--so far I'll stick with that statement. My best result remains a direct connection to one computer ( no success through a lan connection) with the best playback of any video being a hard drive copy of a SD DVD; back in some previous era that might ahve seemed attractive but I have all sorts of HD recordings on hard drives attached to computers and/or that could be swapped out attaching them to computers and while I"ve gotten video without audio to play that doesn't really do much good and seems to be telling us that the HMG is not really set up to read and play MPEG2 streams if they are HD (what happened to the audio, it wouldn't decode?). I have an inquiry into Cyberlink about the PIoneer working in conjunction with Cyberlinks Home Media Kit which is DLNA certified and they are testing it and will report the results soon, while that would be an additional cost of ~80 if it would enable proper playback of HD streams it would certainly be worth it. Will post a follow up as I hear from them or establish any better results on my own.

I've watched a few more films on Blu-ray disc with my wife and we're still liking the playback through the PIoneer better then through a PS3 at 1080i-so the mileage seems to vary depending on your connection and possibly associated equipment-take care one and all :eek:

joerod

01-04-07, 06:06 PM

I need to try out RV! :)

pifemaster

01-04-07, 08:51 PM

I just noticed something weird going on with the Pioneer tonight. I will begin by saying that I can not yet confirm if this is an issue with the movie, or the Pioneer player.

I was watching my 4th movie on the Pioneer tonight it was Basic Instinct 2. When the movie first started, I played with the video adjustments and switched back and forth between the "Standard" and "Cinema" presets. I opted to leave the setting at "Cinema".

Several times throughout the movie and in particular in chapters 15 & 16 the lighting seemed to increase & decrease for no apparent reason. Similar to what I noticed when I would switch between Cinema & Standard modes.

Has anyone else noticed a problem with Basic Instinct 2? Or worse yet, has anyone had a similar experience with the Pioneer?

Bob

bladerunner7

01-04-07, 09:03 PM

is tweeter still on for the 8th??? I hope so...
Confimred today that it wlll be in the encinitas store on monday afternoon :D

drhankz

01-04-07, 09:21 PM

Searchers is a must see disc. I would HIGHLY recommend it! You will NOT believe your eyes.

OK Mr. Cathode Ray - on your recommendation - I went out
and BOUGHT Searchers tonight and watched it.

I must say for a 50 year old transfer - it is pretty good.

joerod

01-04-07, 10:03 PM

The Covenant on the Pioneer looked amazing tonite. I know it is a stretch even for a "B" movie but it is definitely reference material! :eek:

Ray Cathode

01-04-07, 10:47 PM

OK Mr. Cathode Ray - on your recommendation - I went out
and BOUGHT Searchers tonight and watched it.

I must say for a 50 year old transfer - it is pretty good.

It certainly was not what I expected and it did impress me for the same reason. I hope that I steered you correctly. I am looking forward to more transfers from the Ford/Wayne genre!

HTMan34

01-05-07, 01:03 AM

I watched RV a few nights ago. It did look really good. Funny movie also. Robin Williams talking about his ICBM had the gang rolling on the floor!

Searchers is a must see disc. I would HIGHLY recommend it! You will NOT believe your eyes.

I will check out BEL as soon as I receive it!

"Son, this is going to be a regular Field of Dreams moment for us"...LOL!

Looks like Amazon will be getting another order from me!

Definitely checl out BEL...Audio is great too.

HTMan34

01-05-07, 01:05 AM

I need to try out RV! :)

Great PQ on this one.

HTMan34

01-05-07, 01:07 AM

HTMan34

01-05-07, 01:10 AM

The Covenant on the Pioneer looked amazing tonite. I know it is a stretch even for a "B" movie but it is definitely reference material! :eek:

Oh no, not another one?? The wife is going to kill me! Looks like that 10% off for the next year from Amazon is really going to pay off!

joerod

01-05-07, 03:32 AM

Ray Cathode

01-05-07, 06:17 AM

"Son, this is going to be a regular Field of Dreams moment for us"...LOL!

Looks like Amazon will be getting another order from me!

Definitely checl out BEL...Audio is great too.

Hee hee! Some great lines in RV! :D

I have BEL on order and will let you know when I view it.

pjjnw

01-05-07, 07:41 AM

Is anyone running their BDP-HD1 through a VSX-84TXSi receiver via HDMI to the display? I'm curious if the 1080p24 signal makes it through the receiver to the TV. I would hate to have to plug my BD player directly into my monitor to get this feature.

Have been lurking around here for a few months so here goes.
I got my pio at magnolia on 12/31. I just happened to be there at the same time they got a couple in. I have it hooked thru an 82Txsi by hdmi, to my panny 50PX600U by hdmi. Not being a true expert in this area but the picture and audio is excellent. I left the player on 1080p24 and whatever get tru to the video thru the 82. I was very impressed by the Ledgends of jass. Must sound better than to have been there. Superman returns has some good scenes in it. Watched Underword 2, better than dvd but not all that impressive. I have a few more films but havent had time to check them out. I recorded Mission impossible in HD on my Tivo and plan to buy it on blueray to check if there is any differance between them. No problems with the player so far except the Decent.
:D

pifemaster

01-05-07, 08:13 AM

Haven't tried BI 2 yet, but after 2 weeks and 18 BD movies, have not experienced this with the Pioneer. Sounds like maybe a TV issue. What type of TV do you have the Pioneer hooked up to?
My pioneer is connected via HDMI to a Denon 4806CI which is connected via HDMI to a Panasonic PTAX-100U and projected onto a 96" Carada Screen.

I have "Auto Iris" and "Light Harmonizer" set to "OFF" on the Panasonic. But the effect I got was similar to what you would experience if it was set to "ON". I double checked the setting also.

I will continue to keep an eye on it. I did not notice anything on "Invincible", "Black Hawk Down" or "Underworld".

Bob

hamsey

01-05-07, 09:43 AM

Did these codes work for anyone? I tried them on my MX-700 and they did not work. I just used the learn feature but would like to use discrete codes. I also tried the attached file again, it did not work.

Try these: Straight from the engineers in pronto hex format. Please also find attached the complete Pronto CCF for the BDP-HD1.

On

0000 0068 0000 0044 0168 00b4 0016 0043 0016 0016 0016 0016 0016 0016 0016 0016 0016 0043 0016 0016 0016 0043 0016 0016 0016 0043 0016 0043 0016 0043 0016 0043 0016 0016 0016 0043 0016 0016 0016 0043 0016 0016 0016 0016 0016 0016 0016 0016 0016 0016 0016 0016 0016 0043 0016 0016 0016 0043 0016 0043 0016 0043 0016 0043 0016 0043 0016 0043 0016 0016 0016 06d9 0168 00b4 0016 0043 0016 0043 0016 0043 0016 0043 0016 0016 0016 0043 0016 0016 0016 0043 0016 0016 0016 0016 0016 0016 0016 0016 0016 0043 0016 0016 0016 0043 0016 0016 0016 0016 0016 0043 0016 0016 0016 0043 0016 0043 0016 0043 0016 0016 0016 0043 0016 0043 0016 0016 0016 0043 0016 0016 0016 0016 0016 0016 0016 0043 0016 0016 0016 06d9

Off

0000 0068 0000 0044 0168 00b4 0016 0043 0016 0016 0016 0016 0016 0016 0016 0016 0016 0043 0016 0016 0016 0043 0016 0016 0016 0043 0016 0043 0016 0043 0016 0043 0016 0016 0016 0043 0016 0016 0016 0043 0016 0016 0016 0016 0016 0016 0016 0016 0016 0016 0016 0016 0016 0043 0016 0016 0016 0043 0016 0043 0016 0043 0016 0043 0016 0043 0016 0043 0016 0016 0016 06d9 0168 00b4 0016 0043 0016 0043 0016 0043 0016 0043 0016 0016 0016 0043 0016 0016 0016 0043 0016 0016 0016 0016 0016 0016 0016 0016 0016 0043 0016 0016 0016 0043 0016 0016 0016 0043 0016 0043 0016 0016 0016 0043 0016 0043 0016 0043 0016 0016 0016 0043 0016 0016 0016 0016 0016 0043 0016 0016 0016 0016 0016 0016 0016 0043 0016 0016 0016 06d9

Video Engineer

01-05-07, 11:16 AM

Nobody should have to convince you, but from all us who own the Pioneer it appears that we are all 100% satisfied. Not sure if there will be a night and day difference from the Panasonic to the Pioneer, but the Pioneer is one helluva player so far, especially for a 1st gen player!

My testing shows that the Pioneer has slightly better PQ than Panasonic and will match and in some cases exceed HD DVD for PQ.

joerod

01-05-07, 11:19 AM

That's exactly how I feel about the Pioneer unit. I am excited to have it go head to head today against the XA2. Another fun weekend planned! :)

visualguy

01-05-07, 11:38 AM

Free

01-05-07, 11:44 AM

That's exactly how I feel about the Pioneer unit. I am excited to have it go head to head today against the XA2. Another fun weekend planned! :)

Joe, do you have the XA2 already?

Man, you get everything before me. :p

Ray Cathode

01-05-07, 12:15 PM

I have a Sony BDP-S1, and I'm considering exchanging it for the Pioneer BDP-HD1. How responsive is the HD1 when a button is pressed on the remote or the unit itself? The Sony has a lot of frustrating lag.

I'm also concerned about all the reports of freezes with the Sony. I haven't heard about this happening with the Pioneer, but that may be just because a lot fewer people actually own the Pioneer at this point.

Is it worth exchanging the S1 for an HD1, and paying the extra $500? Originally, I thought the Pioneer wasn't worth the extra cost, so I bought the Sony. However, I didn't know at the time about the lag and the freezes with the Sony.

I have not had one glitch or freeze. The HD1 is as fast as my 79Avi. It operates as easily and seamlessly as my 79Avi. It will not play Descent, but has played 45 plus other BD's without a hitch. I still have about 15 movies that I have not watched.

madshi

01-05-07, 12:26 PM

I've a few questions about the "Home Media Gallery":

The Pioneer website mentions H.264 as a supported codec for HMG. But it doesn't mention any container format (e.g. MP4, MKV or TS) which could hold H.264 streams for HMG playback. So I'm wondering:

Which container formats does HMG support? Does it support MP4? Does it support H.264 TS files? Does it support MKV? Is there are chance that MKV support could be added? (FWIW, every encoder expert will tell you that MKV is the most flexible and flat out best container.)

joerod

01-05-07, 01:13 PM

The Pioneer has a very fast response time. The fastest so far out of all the next gen units I have played with. :)

drhankz

01-05-07, 01:56 PM

I have a Sony BDP-S1, and I'm considering exchanging it for the Pioneer BDP-HD1. How responsive is the HD1 when a button is pressed on the remote or the unit itself? The Sony has a lot of frustrating lag.

I'm also concerned about all the reports of freezes with the Sony. I haven't heard about this happening with the Pioneer, but that may be just because a lot fewer people actually own the Pioneer at this point.

Is it worth exchanging the S1 for an HD1, and paying the extra $500? Originally, I thought the Pioneer wasn't worth the extra cost, so I bought the Sony. However, I didn't know at the time about the lag and the freezes with the Sony.

You have had a few responses from owners. Read through this
thread some more and you will find many saying we would only
give up our Pioneer Elite from our cold dead hands.

You don't find that sentiment from other products.

As for the ONE AND ONLY Blu-Ray Disc that does not play
as yet - see the post below.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9327743&&#post9327743

Is it worth the MONEY - In my book it is THE ONLY Blu-Ray
Player to own - PERIOD.

pifemaster

01-05-07, 02:48 PM

drhankz

01-05-07, 02:56 PM

UPDATE:
I just want to let evryone know that after I checked further into this issue that it is NOT a Pioneer problem. I found out that it is a known issue with the Panasonic projector that can be corrected via a firmware update (unfortunately, only by sending it in for service). So off to get updated!!!!!

Bob

Thanks for the RESEARCH and for posting the RESULTS - here.

manypixels

01-05-07, 03:55 PM

I am still waiting for my BDP-HD! It is due in on Jan 12,,I hope. Am going to hook it up to my Pioneer Elite Pro 1000 HDi. Anyone know of any problems doing this ?

chuckken

01-05-07, 10:14 PM

Is the Pioneer the same as the Sony on audio?...This is the only player I have not tested yet...Every time I see a poster ask if the Pioneer will allow the back channels for PCM such as PCM + PLII X MV well, no one responds!...So far the PS3 and the Panny "do" allow you to hear the PCM + modes on my Pioneer Elite receiver, but the Sony doesn't....and since it is very similar to the Pioneer, I was wondering if the Pioneer also "does not" allow you to hear these back channels added to the 5.1 PCM tracks?...Without this I will never own the Pioneer.

HTMan34

01-05-07, 11:52 PM

Your wife will like the shirtless guys in this one. Mine did! :eek: And yes use Amazon it will help save a ton. I gave up on BB and their high prices over 4 months ago. Now I have 95 HD DVD titles and 35 Blu ray ones! :eek: Blu ray has started catching up!

I only purchased 2 BD movies from BB...only reason was because someone got me a BB gift card, otherwise I would not spend my own money from them when Amazon has the same movies $10 -$15 cheaper plus the 10% off.

HTMan34

01-05-07, 11:55 PM

Hee hee! Some great lines in RV! :D

I have BEL on order and will let you know when I view it.

Just watched World Trade Center tonight...another movie you need to check out if you have not done so already. Again, all I can say is WOW! Even the dark scenes look great. There was one scene towards the end when they are pulling Nicholas Cage out from the rubble and they show a close up of his face, just a phenemonial picture!

HTMan34

01-05-07, 11:56 PM

HTMan34

01-05-07, 11:59 PM

I have a Sony BDP-S1, and I'm considering exchanging it for the Pioneer BDP-HD1. How responsive is the HD1 when a button is pressed on the remote or the unit itself? The Sony has a lot of frustrating lag.

I'm also concerned about all the reports of freezes with the Sony. I haven't heard about this happening with the Pioneer, but that may be just because a lot fewer people actually own the Pioneer at this point.

Is it worth exchanging the S1 for an HD1, and paying the extra $500? Originally, I thought the Pioneer wasn't worth the extra cost, so I bought the Sony. However, I didn't know at the time about the lag and the freezes with the Sony.

The response on the Pioneer is great...I was very surprised that it is this responsive for a 1st gen player...very comparable to regular DVD player responsiveness. No lag and definitely no freezing issues.

HTMan34

01-06-07, 12:01 AM

UPDATE:
I just want to let evryone know that after I checked further into this issue that it is NOT a Pioneer problem. I found out that it is a known issue with the Panasonic projector that can be corrected via a firmware update (unfortunately, only by sending it in for service). So off to get updated!!!!!

Bob

Kind of figured that was what it was...didn't sound like a Pioneer issue. Thanks for the update.

HTMan34

01-06-07, 12:04 AM

joerod

01-06-07, 12:09 AM

How can all of my other Blu ray titles play and Descent not? I am not blaming Pioneer at all. I returned Descent since there is no use using it as a coaster! And if I get another Lion's Gate disc with problems, I will NEVER purchase one of their HD movies again! ;)

cstorke

01-06-07, 03:11 AM

Did these codes work for anyone? I tried them on my MX-700 and they did not work. I just used the learn feature but would like to use discrete codes. I also tried the attached file again, it did not work.

I was unable to get them to work in my MX-850. Everything else in the file attached to the same post did work. Not sure what the problem is.

CasualViewer

01-06-07, 07:24 AM

The issues with Descent are discussed in the Bluray Software section.

hamsey

01-06-07, 07:49 AM

Worked great on my Pronto 7500.

Tried again last night. They do not work for me. Bummer!

Norm

joerod

01-06-07, 09:26 AM

We know the issues are discussed in the software area but since it also involves the Pioneer player it can be mentioned here to...

chuckken

01-06-07, 03:21 PM

steviec

01-06-07, 04:47 PM

Someone please answer this question???...

Is the Pioneer the same as the Sony on audio?...This is the only player I have not tested yet...Every time I see a poster ask if the Pioneer will allow the back channels for PCM such as PCM + PLII X MV well, no one responds!...So far the PS3 and the Panny "do" allow you to hear the PCM + modes on my Pioneer Elite receiver, but the Sony doesn't....and since it is very similar to the Pioneer, I was wondering if the Pioneer also "does not" allow you to hear these back channels added to the 5.1 PCM tracks?...Without this I will never own the Pioneer.

the panny is the ONLY player at this time that has 7.1 analog outs for delivering The new DTD MA 7.1 with the next firmware upgrade in april.?.
Both the sony and the pioneer have 5.1 analog outs but no decoders onboard so you will have to buy anew reciever if you want to hear any of the new sound codecs from them IF they put out the coreect signals which i believe they only do 650kb dts and dd..

chuckken

01-06-07, 05:28 PM

the panny is the ONLY player at this time that has 7.1 analog outs for delivering The new DTD MA 7.1 with the next firmware upgrade in april.?.
Both the sony and the pioneer have 5.1 analog outs but no decoders onboard so you will have to buy anew reciever if you want to hear any of the new sound codecs from them IF they put out the coreect signals which i believe they only do 650kb dts and dd..

I could care less about analog...You did not answer my question...I am talking HDMI here....I want to know if the Pioneer Elite Player will let you hear the back channels on a good HDMI receiver. The back channels "can" be heard on the Panny and the PS3, but not on the Sony. Since the Sony and Pioneer are practically the same player, I want someone with a receiver such as the Pioneer VSX-84TXsi to tell me if the PCM+PLIIXMV rear surround modes are added to the 5.1 PCM.

bferr1

01-06-07, 05:37 PM

I could care less about analog...You did not answer my question...I am talking HDMI here....I want to know if the Pioneer Elite Player will let you hear the back channels on a good HDMI receiver. The back channels "can" be heard on the Panny and the PS3, but not on the Sony. Since the Sony and Pioneer are practically the same player, I want someone with a receiver such as the Pioneer VSX-84TXsi to tell me if the PCM+PLIIXMV rear surround modes are added to the 5.1 PCM.chuckken, check the Pioneer's owner's manual. There is an audio chart somewhere in there that lists all the output options and configurations. I do believe that 7.1 PCM will be output as 7.1 PCM over HDMI. The manual can be downloaded at Pioneer's website.

chuckken

01-06-07, 06:30 PM

chuckken, check the Pioneer's owner's manual. There is an audio chart somewhere in there that lists all the output options and configurations. I do believe that 7.1 PCM will be output as 7.1 PCM over HDMI. The manual can be downloaded at Pioneer's website.

Well that's actually my concern...The Sony and the Pioneer have the same specs in this regards, however the Sony does not allow for the added rear PCM + modes...I am actually referring to 5.1 with the receiver adding the extra rear channels via PCM + DD X THX or PCM + PLII X MV etc...I guess I will go down to Tweeter this week and pick up a Pioneer Elite and find out for myself...I will post back here my findings... :)

steviec

01-06-07, 06:42 PM

Well that's actually my concern...The Sony and the Pioneer have the same specs in this regards, however the Sony does not allow for the added rear PCM + modes...I am actually referring to 5.1 with the receiver adding the extra rear channels via PCM + DD X THX or PCM + PLII X MV etc...I guess I will go down to Tweeter this week and pick up a Pioneer Elite and find out for myself...I will post back here my findings... :)
Well think about it. obviously no!

chuckken

01-06-07, 07:23 PM

Well think about it. obviously no!

I was hoping that since they are not totally identical that maybe The Pioneer does...That maybe they figured out the mistake on the Sony and corrected it on the Pioneer....It "is" possible. If it doesn't, I'll keep the Panny.

jsf

01-06-07, 09:02 PM

You have had a few responses from owners. Read through this
thread some more and you will find many saying we would only
give up our Pioneer Elite from our cold dead hands.

You don't find that sentiment from other products.

As for the ONE AND ONLY Blu-Ray Disc that does not play
as yet - see the post below.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9327743&&#post9327743

Is it worth the MONEY - In my book it is THE ONLY Blu-Ray
Player to own - PERIOD.
Not surprising reading those responses from the consumers extremely loyal to the Pioneer Elite brand and willing to pay top dollar for a unit that has no advanced audio support.

When Pioneer comes out with the next generation player in a few short months that does provide audio support, the same loyal customers will sell the gen 1 player, taking several hundred dollars loss and pay a similar price again for the new Pioneer.

And don't worry, there won't be many lining up to try and pry the unit from your cold dead hands. Enjoy!

drhankz

01-06-07, 09:55 PM

chuckken, check the Pioneer's owner's manual. There is an audio chart somewhere in there that lists all the output options and configurations. I do believe that 7.1 PCM will be output as 7.1 PCM over HDMI. The manual can be downloaded at Pioneer's website.

That is correct - the Manual - Page 44 says if the DVD is
authored in 7.1 and your Surround Processor supports
7.1 - then 7.1 will be output over HDMI. A lot of conditions
need to be met before it happens.

HTMan34

01-06-07, 10:05 PM

Not surprising reading those responses from the consumers extremely loyal to the Pioneer Elite brand and willing to pay top dollar for a unit that has no advanced audio support.

When Pioneer comes out with the next generation player in a few short months that does provide audio support, the same loyal customers will sell the gen 1 player, taking several hundred dollars loss and pay a similar price again for the new Pioneer.

And don't worry, there won't be many lining up to try and pry the unit from your cold dead hands. Enjoy!

The Pioneer is a great player...apparently you have not had a chance to view one yet! Not really sure why everyone is so hung up on advanced audio support...don't get me wrong, I hope Pioneer adds it with a future firmware update, but it definitely should not be the only factor people are worrying about with this player! Umcompressed PCM sounds awesome to me and the PQ on the Pioneer, speaks for itself when it is seen in person!

I could not care less if there is no line of people waiting to pry the player from my cold dead hands, because I am 100% satisfied and happy with it!

bferr1

01-06-07, 10:19 PM

Not really sure why everyone is so hung up on advanced audio support...I can only speak for myself, but it would annoy me to no end to pay a premium price for a player that lacked premium features. Plus, I would buy with confidence if I knew definitively that Pioneer planned on keeping the player current in its features and capabilities by issuing firmware upgrades the way Toshiba did and Panasonic is going to do. So far, that looks like it's not the case.

jsf

01-06-07, 10:32 PM

The Pioneer is a great player...apparently you have not had a chance to view one yet! Not really sure why everyone is so hung up on advanced audio support...don't get me wrong, I hope Pioneer adds it with a future firmware update, but it definitely should not be the only factor people are worrying about with this player! Umcompressed PCM sounds awesome to me and the PQ on the Pioneer, speaks for itself when it is seen in person!

I could not care less if there is no line of people waiting to pry the player from my cold dead hands, because I am 100% satisfied and happy with it!
That's what is great about the marketplace. To each his own.

I agree with bferr1. To me the audio is almost as important as the PQ, and it would really annoy me to pay the price of the Pioneer player and not have the support. I believe that without this audio capability, Pioneer sales will hurt. It seems to me that Pioneer is showing arrogance by putting out a unit, charging a premium price and not providing or stating a firm intention to provide the advanced audio inherent in Blu-ray.

So while I would not want to trash a unit other folks have purchased, and are enjoying based on their own standards, it is also somewhat annoying to hear people consider this unit as the second coming.

phansson

01-06-07, 11:19 PM

JSF,

Where is all of this proof that Pioneer is not going to provide updates to decode the advanced codecs?

I haven't heard any kind of official announcement.

jsf

01-06-07, 11:29 PM

JSF,

Where is all of this proof that Pioneer is not going to provide updates to decode the advanced codecs?

I haven't heard any kind of official announcement.
No proof that they won't but no indication that they will. If they do make an announcement that there will be a firmware update, then, of course, the situation would change.

danam

01-06-07, 11:45 PM

what is really weird is that most of the BD releases have a DTS-HD audio track in it !
but so far none of the players are able to handle this ... pretty lame for a format start ...
and I'm also disappointed that Pioneer comes up with an Elite player with no or little info about its audio features possibilities ...

this afternoon, I read an article in the Widescreen Review, the interview of Chris Walker and Don Eklund, and it's very confusing when it comes to the audio part ...

so let's say the PCM uncompressed audio track is kicking a$$, why bother putting DTS-HD audio track in BD releases ????

the way manufacturers and editors handle the BD stuff is really disturbing to me ... I don't have the same feeling about the hd-dvd guys.

and don't get me wrong, I'm not a hd-dvd pro ... I have both formats so far, I'm just curious to see how all this is going on, like a lot of ppl here i guess.
but maybe we'll know more at CES ? :)

bfdtv

01-07-07, 12:32 AM

what is really weird is that most of the BD releases have a DTS-HD audio track in it !
but so far none of the players are able to handle this ... pretty lame for a format start ...Panasonic has announced plans to add DTS-HD MA decoding in a software update, coming in March. Sony is also expected to add DTS-HD MA decoding to the PS3 at about the same time.

so let's say the PCM uncompressed audio track is kicking a$$, why bother putting DTS-HD audio track in BD releases ????Because of a dirty little secret...

The "dirty little secret" that many in the BD camp don't like to talk about...is that you aren't getting master audio or "HD audio" at all with most LPCM tracks. Instead, you are getting compromised, lower-fidelity 16/48 tracks downconverted from the 24/48 masters. The LPCM tracks on all but four Blu-ray titles are lower-fidelity 16/48 tracks downconverted from 24/48 masters. According to DTS, even their lossy DTS-HD audio @ 3.0Mbps noticeably exceeds the quality of the current 16/48 LPCM tracks.

Virtually every studio including LPCM right now is doing it soley for marketing purposes. They know it is inferior to the lossy 24/48 DTS-HD and lossless 24/48 DTS-HD / TrueHD tracks that require less space on disk, but they do it anyway to sell you "HD Audio" that is compatible with your legacy Blu-ray players. Don't be surprised if they try to sell you a "special edition" re-release in a year or two with a full 24/48 track on a BD50.

FOX has taken the right approach with an eye toward the future. They include full, master quality 24/48 DTS-HD MA lossless tracks with all of their titles. Thanks to lossless compression, these 24/48 master quality tracks consume less space on every disk than lower-fidelity, downconverted 16/48 LPCM tracks. Current players can't decode them, but within 12 months, you won't be able to buy a player without full DTS-HD MA decoding, and most Blu-ray players in customers' hands (i.e. PS3s, Panasonic's BD players, among others) will support it within a matter of months. In the meantime, you get a 20-bit DTS-ES core track @ 1.5Mbps for backward compatibility that rivals 16-bit LPCM in quality.

Quite frankly, if you buy a player without DTS-HD MA or an upcoming DTS-HD MA upgrade, you are getting a player with inferior audio output quality. Based on comments from a Sony representative on the insiders thread, they have no intention of ever using LPCM at full 24/48 quality on a BD25 release, so if master quality audio is something you want, then you need a player with DTS-HD MA and Dolby TrueHD decoding.

danam

01-07-07, 01:08 AM

yes actually that's why I took a PS3 instead of the Pioneer Elite BD player ... with the lack of info from Pioneer, I didn't want to risk wasting 1,5KUSD in a player in wich i'm not sure if it will support HD Audio codecs, too risky for me, can't afford it.
but I guess Pioneer doesn't mind since we have still no info about it, and I'm pretty happy with my PS3.

DrDon

01-07-07, 07:39 AM

NOTE: Thread title does say OWNERS ONLY. Let's keep the posts to people who actually own the unit. Thanks

Doc

DaViD Boulet

01-07-07, 09:12 AM

so let's say the PCM uncompressed audio track is kicking a$$, why bother
putting DTS-HD audio track in BD releases ????

Because a 24/48 or 24/96 LPCM 5.1 or 6.1 track consumes more than twice the bandwidth/space as a DTS-HD encoding.

bferr1

01-07-07, 09:42 AM

NOTE: Thread title does say OWNERS ONLY. Let's keep the posts to people who actually own the unit. Thanks

DocUnderstood, but we need a place to debate the merits of this player, both from specs point-of-view and real world usage. There are a lot of people who wouldn't mind owning this player but are apprehensive because of the cost or perceived shortcomings with its features. Bashing out these arguments somewhere can only alleviate some of that apprehension.

Ray Cathode

01-07-07, 10:23 AM

Understood, but we need a place to debate the merits of this player, both from specs point-of-view and real world usage. There are a lot of people who wouldn't mind owning this player but are apprehensive because of the cost or perceived shortcomings with its features. Bashing out these arguments somewhere can only alleviate some of that apprehension.

IMHO only, the place NOT to do it is in a thread named:

"Pioneer Elite BDP-HD1 First End User Reports - OWNERS ONLY"

If you don't own it, you are not an "end user" or an "owner", providing a "report" based on experience with "THE" player.

A read of this thread will find few if ANY owners complaining of what will or will not be in a future firmware update. Do "we" want all of the advanced audio codecs supported? Yes. Do "we" want a fix to the Descent problem? Yes. Am I an ignorant fool, blowing my money on a POS BD player because I am uninformed, stupid, moronic, and/or several other adjectives used to describe people who would buy such a crippled player? That is what has been inferred by this "debate of merits" that infected this thread.

Those of us that own this and other players, those of us that own BOTH formats know one thing... when it comes to this player and those that buy it, bashers (not pointing this statement at you) in this thread do not know jack! Again IMHO.

learning101

01-07-07, 10:34 AM

IMHO only, the place NOT to do it is in a thread named:

"Pioneer Elite BDP-HD1 First End User Reports - OWNERS ONLY"

If you don't own it, you are not an "end user" or an "owner", providing a "report" based on experience with "THE" player.

What a novel concept - paying attention to the name of the thread.

I vote for all non-owner postings to be removed from this thread to comply with

"Pioneer Elite BDP-HD1 First End User Reports - OWNERS ONLY"

mikey p

01-07-07, 10:42 AM

PooperScooper

01-07-07, 11:56 AM

If you own a ps3 why on earth do you require info of this or any other standalone player? You need to get to a GAMER forum. :rolleyes:Nice thread crap. You might consider another forum too.

larry

bferr1

01-07-07, 11:57 AM

IMHO only, the place NOT to do it is in a thread named:

"Pioneer Elite BDP-HD1 First End User Reports - OWNERS ONLY"

If you don't own it, you are not an "end user" or an "owner", providing a "report" based on experience with "THE" player.

A read of this thread will find few if ANY owners complaining of what will or will not be in a future firmware update. Do "we" want all of the advanced audio codecs supported? Yes. Do "we" want a fix to the Descent problem? Yes. Am I an ignorant fool, blowing my money on a POS BD player because I am uninformed, stupid, moronic, and/or several other adjectives used to describe people who would buy such a crippled player? That is what has been inferred by this "debate of merits" that infected this thread.

Those of us that own this and other players, those of us that own BOTH formats know one thing... when it comes to this player and those that buy it, bashers (not pointing this statement at you) in this thread do not know jack! Again IMHO.I can understand that, and I apologize if this debate has chafed you or others in any way. That was not my intent. I have a Panny, which I think is pretty good. I merely wanted to get to the heart of the matter, in concrete and measureable terms, as to why the Pioneer is regarded so highly and whether it is worth the upgrade for me. And until my local Tweeter gets them in, I won't be able to see this player for myself in my own home. In the meantime, though, I would love to see Stacey Spears' or Kris Deering's benchmark test results, and I'm sure you do, too.

danam

01-07-07, 12:16 PM

sorry i also apologize, actually I didn't pay attention to the thread title.
but owning a PS3 doesn't mean I should go to a gaming forum :roll:
I bought it more for its BD capabilities than for a gaming purpose ...

ppl pull the trigger pretty fast here ... I'm not used to that ...

chuckken

01-07-07, 01:33 PM

That is correct - the Manual - Page 44 says if the DVD is
authored in 7.1 and your Surround Processor supports
7.1 - then 7.1 will be output over HDMI. A lot of conditions
need to be met before it happens.

You still are not understanding...I am referring to 5.1 "not" 7.1 PCM. The Pioneer and Sony for some reason do not allow a 7.1 receiver to add the back PCM "PLUS" channels. The PS3 and the Panny do. If the Pioneer could do this, I would trade in my Panny for it. I am talking HDMI here and PCM only.

JerS

01-07-07, 01:42 PM

Can anybody comment on whether there is any potential for up-conversion via the component outputs on the BDP-HD1.

Thanks

bfdtv

01-07-07, 02:17 PM

Can anybody comment on whether there is any potential for up-conversion via the component outputs on the BDP-HD1.There is not. Doing so is prohibited by the DVD licensing agreement.

Rob Tomlin

01-07-07, 03:03 PM

There is not. Doing so is prohibited by the DVD licensing agreement.

Which makes ZERO sense since even HD-DVD outputs 1080i via analog components.

Frank Stein

01-07-07, 03:14 PM

Which makes ZERO sense since even HD-DVD outputs 1080i via analog components.

Ooops. I was going to explain this, but I remembered that only Pioneer owners can post in this thread. Since I own the Panasonic, I can't properly respond. Hint: you're incorrect because you didn't read the response and question carefully.

chuckken

01-07-07, 03:26 PM

Ooops. I was going to explain this, but I remembered that only Pioneer owners can post in this thread. Since I own the Panasonic, I can't properly respond. Hint: you're incorrect because you didn't read the response and question carefully.

Do I detect a trace of sarcasm in your facetiousness???...http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_12_6.gif

Neo-Geo

01-08-07, 03:39 PM

drhankz

01-08-07, 06:51 PM

I realize that this is supposed to be the "owners only thread" but how are we supposed to own this player when it's not yet available anywhere? When is this elusive player supposed to be released anyways? No signs of a current or even a past listing on eBay, no online retailers with stock, and definitely no local (Memphis, TN) retailers with stock. Oh ya, and the official Pioneer Online store doesn't even offer this Blu-Ray player either.

There is NO ONLINE Pioneer Store. So of course a non-existent store
would not carry the player.

If you are referring to the Pioneer Retail Store - They do carry them.
I got mine there and most of the other OWNERS got theirs from them
as well.

Tweeter nationally should have them by the end of the week as well
as Best Buy!

If you are trying to find this Pioneer Product from a Non-Pioneer Dealer.
GIVE UP!

drhankz

01-08-07, 07:03 PM

JFR0317

01-08-07, 07:18 PM

Great news, drhankz! Tweeter is still saying 1-12-07 here in Houston, so I can hardly wait to get my pre-order. Thanks very much for getting this great info.

drhankz

01-08-07, 07:26 PM

Great news, drhankz! Tweeter is still saying 1-12-07 here in Houston, so I can hardly wait to get my pre-order. Thanks very much for getting this great info.

1/12 is the date I though when the Really BIG BOAT load of players
arrives to be available nationally.

madkaw

01-08-07, 07:35 PM

The green light is getting brighter all the time with this news.

Rob Tomlin

01-08-07, 07:38 PM

Great news Dr. Hankz! Once Pioneer puts out the FW update for advanced audio codecs, this player will probably be mine. The 1080p/24 output will be a perfect match for my new JVC RS1 when it gets here late Feb/March. :)

drhankz

01-08-07, 07:41 PM

joerod

01-08-07, 07:43 PM

Great news! This should shut a lot of people up! :D Have I posted about how good the picture Q is? :eek:

Tolstoi

01-08-07, 07:51 PM

This is a great news and change everything regarding the overall value of this player.

drhankz

01-08-07, 07:56 PM

This is a great news and change everything regarding the overall value of this player.

I'm GLAD I could REPORT GOOD NEWS!

LEVESQUE

01-08-07, 08:10 PM

drhankz

01-08-07, 08:14 PM

Great news. Thanx!

I have this baby home now and playing with it. And with those great news, it will become one hell of a player. Nice combo with my HD-XA2 coming this week, and paired with the Anthem D2... Cool....

Did you see my XA2 report?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9397123&&#post9397123

md1953

01-08-07, 08:39 PM

Great to hear about the audio codecs. I have had the Pio on order for 2 months now had been considering keeping the Panny loaner from Tweeter, but it will now be going back as soon as the Pio arrives (this week, hopefully).

bladerunner7

01-08-07, 09:41 PM

my tweeter says 1-9-07, hopefully tomm

Neo-Geo

01-08-07, 11:21 PM

There is NO ONLINE Pioneer Store. So of course a non-existent store would not carry the player.

This must be the non-existent online Pioneer Store you were referring to:
Pioneer's online store (http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pna/v3/pg/shop/landing/0,,2076_310069581,00.html)

If you are referring to the Pioneer Retail Store - They do carry them. I got mine there and most of the other OWNERS got theirs from them
as well.

Oh, sweet! So there is one store in the North America that has stock of the Pioneer BD player. Bummer for the people that don't live in Southern California though.

If you are trying to find this Pioneer Product from a Non-Pioneer Dealer. GIVE UP!

I preordered mine a while back from an authorized dealer in my area. I was just making a point that people should be allowed to post in this thread even though they do not yet have possession of their player considering the distribution circumstances. Actually, distribution could not have been any more restricted and confusing. Absolutely no set release date and only one walk-in store at the launch. Could it be worse? Lol, nope!

I'm running out of patience here.

christefan

01-08-07, 11:23 PM

REPORT on Pioneer News From CES

I was able to learn a number of things from people
in the Pioneer Booth about Futures [GRIN]!

1) There is the appropriate hardware in the BDP-HD1
to enable internal decoding of Lossless Audio.

2) Beta FW versions of TrueHD Software Decoding is
at Dolby Labs for Certification.

3) The player can be updated with a DISK - this
feature has been extensively tested.

4) The Player can be updated via the Built-In
Ethernet Interface. This feature has also been
extensively tested. There is no MENTION of this
feature in the manual because it was printed BEFORE
Pioneer had their Update Servers ready to support
any updating over the Internet. This live updating
has also been tested with the servers that are now
in-place and it takes about 12 minutes for an
update via the Internet. This will will likely be
announced SHORTLY after CES ends.

5) There is an update disc for fixing the Descent
problem - which is a Lionsgate Authoring problem
that Pioneer has now made a FW change to adapt to
their incorrect directory structure. This UPDATE disc
should be available shortly - also or available over
the Internet Update Feature!

Since you are at CES- could you try to find out from PIoneer what they are going to do about the HMG feature. Right now it will not decode audio from a HD transport stream only the video comes through. I called PIoneer and the tech I talked to said that the player had not been tested with HD, only with SD; when I commented that since it is an HD player why would they think people wouldn't be interested in it streaming HD material? in response to that he started talking about how HD was not part of the DLNA specifications and that the studios held a great deal of power over equipment and what features could be put in the market place- I further stated to him that I could get it to stream the video from HD material but not audio and asked if the ability to recognize and decode a simple AC3 DD5:1 common satellite HD audio had been turned off. He would not reply to that and stated that he doubted if any consistent performance could be obtained right now on any streaming of HD material to the player. I told him that Cyberlink had just done a new module for HD/Blu-ray and H264 and that they were trying to test if the PIoneer player would function correctly in an environment of their HomeMediaKIt but they had not responded to me yet as to whether they had success with their testing. Walkamo had said that the player would handle MPEG1/2/4 and H264 in another thread, to me implying that HD streaming wouldn't be a problem but the result hasn't panned out yet-I don't need a crippled player myself even if it does provide the best Blu-ray picture, they should have implimented HMG in a manner consistent with the player being an HD unit itself. As it is usually you have to reboot a computer to get HMG to acknowledge that it is connected to a computer and it won't see multiple computers through a lan, I've been working on it the last week with no break through, I'm about to return the player-thanks for any help ;)

WaldorfSalad

01-08-07, 11:30 PM

REPORT on Pioneer News From CES

I was able to learn a number of things from people
in the Pioneer Booth about Futures [GRIN]!

1) There is the appropriate hardware in the BDP-HD1
to enable internal decoding of Lossless Audio.

5) There is an update disc for fixing the Descent
problem - which is a Lionsgate Authoring problem
that Pioneer has now made a FW change to adapt to
their incorrect directory structure. This UPDATE disc
should be available shortly - also or available over
the Internet Update Feature!Do you happen to know if #1 and #5 will also apply to the Sony BDP-S1?

HTMan34

01-09-07, 12:41 AM