Hi guys!

I've been in here a bit before, but considering the latest addition to my Home Cinema I reckon I'll be spending some more time here, since this machine seems most known and used in the US.

In the Dutch HT forums they love images, so hoping you think along similar lines here's a smack after unpacking and looking about a bit:


http://www.drunkdragons.com/memberupload/DSCN1757.JPG



http://www.drunkdragons.com/memberupload/DSCN1758.JPG



http://www.drunkdragons.com/memberupload/DSCN1760.JPG


http://www.drunkdragons.com/memberupload/DSCN1761.JPG



http://www.drunkdragons.com/memberupload/DSCN1762.JPG



http://www.drunkdragons.com/memberupload/DSCN1763.JPG



http://www.drunkdragons.com/memberupload/DSCN1764.JPG



http://www.drunkdragons.com/memberupload/DSCN1765.JPG

http://www.drunkdragons.com/memberupload/DSCN1768.JPG



http://www.drunkdragons.com/memberupload/DSCN1769.JPG



http://www.drunkdragons.com/memberupload/DSCN1770.JPG



http://www.drunkdragons.com/memberupload/DSCN1776.JPG



http://www.drunkdragons.com/memberupload/DSCN1777.JPG



http://www.drunkdragons.com/memberupload/DSCN1778.JPG




A slight wear on the green tube, but plenty of life left in the lot I reckon!

It came with HD-18 lenses, I guess those are the standard? Are they good or should I already start keeping my eye out for the HD-145 or something else for a future upgrade?

One thing I wanted to ask right off though: on powering up the unit for some quick testing all was in fine working order, I found that the fans are rather noisy. Is it possible, and doable, to replace these by quieter ones? Any suggestions and/or possible links to addresses where to purchase?

I'm quite into the PC world and know there's plenty of fans out there, but these probably are 230V whereas most PC fans are 12V or 5V.

The standby button is blinking when in standby mode, this is due to the fact that it's a US model but with a euro powersupply according to the seller. It doesn't bother me much and if it starts to I can easily simply blind it I reckon, but nonetheless - can something be done to make it work 'normally' ?

The unit powered up fine and a quick test with S-Video signal from my DVD gave me picture, albeit crap and non-converged, obviously. I assume the other inputs are ok as well so I'll transfer the 2nd half of the money to the seller tomorrow as well :)


I'm not in a hurry, we'll be celebrating X-mas at the gf's family, after which we travel to Holland to visit my family over newyear (we live in Sweden). I plan to do the tough work (ceiling mounting, converging, calibrating etc) after X-mas when I have plenty of time. I will read the manuals thoroughly, as I've read the NEC's aren't the easiest to configure. Hence I hope to not be bothering you guys with questions which I could've found the answer to by simply reading. Nonetheless I hope that when I do stumble upon things I can't figure out, some experts here can and are willing to assist.

Cheers,
Joris
Uppsala, Sweden

It came with HD-18 lenses, I guess those are the standard? Are they good or should I already start keeping my eye out for the HD-145 or something else for a future upgrade?


You've got an LC machine. HD145s are an AC lens.

Dave

Welcome!

The fans won't be 230V... they will be low voltage DC (12 or 24V.)
As it happens, Gary Murrel has a thread here about his efforts to quiet his XG:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=723826

I can't speak to LC lens options, only reiterate that HD144 and 145 are air coupled therefor won't work with this PJ.

Follow the setup advice you get here, at least WRT the projection distance... NEC was FAR too conservative, resulting in small rasters that would burn quickly and produce less resolution and light output.
Best advice is to set up the projected image from your source and resolution to be within a centimeter or so from the green tube edge, then move the projector forward and back to fill your screen. Measure and set up your mount for this PD.

And yes, you've got a fair amount of life left in those tubes... think 6000-8000 runtime hours.

Thanks for the replies! I'll check out that topic as well.

As for the setup, I plan to start with the current configuration. The previous owner had the pj installed in a nice home cinema dedicated room, and - from what I could see on the tube - in 16:9, which I plan to use as well. The image filled the tubes horizontally with about a cm on each side, as you mentioned.

It's good to know to not fare blind on the NEC manual then, I've heard that from several owners now!

I plan to use a 16:9 screen which is 2.20m wide. I'm sorry, I don't know the vertical size from head (and if I did, it wouldn't be in ", but there's plenty conversions 'out there' to fix that ;) ).

Looks like a beauty, Joris. Yes, the XG is notoriously loud. There have been several threads on cooling it and quieting it down, see e.g.
http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=531375
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=723826

You will probably want to build a hushbox to contain the noise, but then you have to make sure you ventilate it well. The best way to exhaust the hot air depends on whether you're mounting the XG on a table (right side up), or hanging from the ceiling (upside down). If you're hanging it, you want to stick a "plenum" on the baseplate of the XG, and suck air out of it. This draws air through the body of the projector and out the base. See http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=529823. (Probably want to reverse the two side fans if you do that, so they blow in (working with the plenum extraction) rather than out (makes sense for a right-side-up installation but not for upside-down).

Have fun! You have a "learning experience" ahead of you. :)
Gary

Nice XG. Set up time!

Sweet. I love to look at minty tubes and for some reason the tubes on a G70 and XGLC are just dead sexy :p .

NEC XG Tubes = The Pamela Andreson of Tubes

You've got an LC machine. HD145s are an AC lens.

Dave

Besides which, the only thing that makes the HD-145 lenses of any value is because of the Red and Green colored filters in the lenses. The LC NEC and Sony projectors use colored C-elements, so you don't have to put up with the picture degradation that the cheap filters used in the lenses cause. ;)

Bruce! Haven't seen you in a while, glad to see you're still alive! :D

Awesome projector...now you must find a way to keep it cool and quiet. This is the journey....enjoy it.


Ben

Bruce! Haven't seen you in a while, glad to see you're still alive! :D

Hi Chris, I haven't been feeling too well and get tired from doing nothing, so I sleep alot. I guess I'll live to see next year, but after that, I don't know. :D As long as I don't have to read any of your l-o-n-g posts I should make it another year. :p

Hi Chris, I haven't been feeling too well and get tired from doing nothing, so I sleep alot. I guess I'll live to see next year, but after that, I don't know. :D As long as I don't have to read any of your l-o-n-g posts I should make it another year. :p

I hope it is not any thing serious.

Hi Chris, I haven't been feeling too well and get tired from doing nothing, so I sleep alot. I guess I'll live to see next year, but after that, I don't know. :D As long as I don't have to read any of your l-o-n-g posts I should make it another year. :p

Well stay well, and I'll try to stay pithy. :)

You, uh, might not want to wander into the OT Global Warming thread though, there are some long ones in there... :cool:

Hello again!
Now that X-mas is past, a trip to Netherlands (visiting my parents and friends) done and I've actually gotten around to hanging the projector and do some quick calibration, here's some pictures:


http://www.drunkdragons.com/memberupload/DSCN1923.JPG


http://www.drunkdragons.com/memberupload/DSCN1924.JPG


http://www.drunkdragons.com/memberupload/DSCN1926.JPG


http://www.drunkdragons.com/memberupload/DSCN1930.JPG


After calibration, starting with a picture of the desktop on my 22" Wide TFT:


http://www.drunkdragons.com/memberupload/DSCN1928.JPG


http://www.drunkdragons.com/memberupload/DSCN1935.JPG


http://www.drunkdragons.com/memberupload/DSCN1936.JPG


http://www.drunkdragons.com/memberupload/DSCN1938.JPG


I find that the text isn't crispy clear (+ that I really should get a pair of glasses, but my gf confirmed it wasn't completely sharp), but the overall image was quite satisfying and subtitles are easy to read and seem fine. Unfortunately all walls here are white, so I will never get a truly good contrast in here.

As for the sharpness... right now I'm using my PC as source, using the following:

DVI -> VGA converter
VGA <--> VGA 3m cable (LOWEST quality)
VGA -> 5x BNC breakout (LOW quality)

From what I've read the best idea for getting optimal image quality is getting a Moome box, or better yet, card (which can be installed directly into the NEC). I wonder if that would give sharper image?

I did the lens focus and EF using a test pattern from the pc (using Nokia tool), perhaps I could get sharper result using the in-built? In any case, I reckon the internal test patterns are 'as sharp as it gets'? As usual hard to focus on blue.


As for the entire converging procedure, I find the manual somewhat meager. And one thing I really didn't understand yet:

there's an ALIGNMENT menu, and there's a CONVERGENCE menu... but most of the items seem to be the same? And in the manual, things start by Electrical focus (page 39, then follow some steps, then on pages 48/49 there seems to be some kind of roundup. But then things start anew?! :confused: Page 50: static convergence, followed by dynamic convergence...

I reckon I am missing a point here...

Well I hope you guys can give me some pointers based on above pictures and questions!

One final thing:

I noticed that in a white screen, I get discoloration towards the side edges:

http://www.drunkdragons.com/memberupload/DSCN1943.JPG



I'm using a wider image than the previous usage; is this simply the effect of wear, even though the tubes seemed in pretty good condition?

It's not disturbing me as it only shows in white screens and I don't want to decrease the projected area and be forced to re-hang the pj some cm backwards, so I'll have to live with it. I'm just wondering if that indead is due to wear.

http://www.drunkdragons.com/memberupload/DSCN1938.JPG



One more thing:

in the above picture one can see that there's some kind of slightly discolored band at the bottom of the screen. Is this somehow due to the signal I'm feeding? I see it on all tubes and it's a very SHARP line, ie not like the discolorations at the side edges which are more diffuse. I wonder what is causing that; in vertical range I'm using a smaller tube surface than the previous owner (he projected 4:3), so it shouldn't be related to wear I guess.

what resolution and refresh rate are you feeding it?

nice PJ, the NEC XG LC is king and it gives one heck of a image, that looks like wear on the tube, that line at the bottom you were asking about

here is what you can do with a NEC LC, from my 1352 in my HT after 3 months of setup:

http://home.bigsandybb.com/gmurrell/theater/screenshot4.jpg

http://home.bigsandybb.com/gmurrell/theater/screenshot6.jpg

http://home.bigsandybb.com/gmurrell/theater/screenshot15.jpg
http://home.bigsandybb.com/gmurrell/theater/screenshot22.jpg
http://home.bigsandybb.com/gmurrell/theater/screenshot45.jpg

more here:
http://home.bigsandybb.com/gmurrell/theater/screens.html

again Nice PJ ;)

-Gary

NEC XG Tubes = The Pamela Andreson of Tubes


I thought Pamela Anderson was the Pamela Anderson of tubes? :p

Or was that "Tommy Lee is (was) the tube of Pamela Anderson?" :eek: :eek: :eek:

what resolution and refresh rate are you feeding it?


I'm feeding 'standard' 720p at 60Hz refresh rate from my ATI card in the PC.

@Gary:

those are some awesome pictures m8! Although I'm aware such images are always 'changed' by camera and such, it looks great and probably even better in reality? I do reckon you have a completely dark room though, with dark walls and all? That I strife for when we buy a house, but for now I'll have to make do with the light here.

Jori, it does look better in person for sure, I got a new camera a couple days back and I am amazed how good I got those to turnout, they are untouched other than resizing them

you have one heck of a unit there, work with it and learn the NEC and it gives dividends, having lighter colored walls is a problem, not a bad one, but not optimum, try and make sure you room is at least 100% void of lights and that will make a big difference, when you get a new room, if you can do it 100% black, and everything in it, it makes a worlds difference is black level and 3D qualities

and if you need any help with the NEC just ask, there are plenty of us here, Mark in Australia could help with any NEC issue, imagined or real ;)

-Gary

Thanks m8!

I'll restart the setup now, starting with all values at 0. Somehow they weren't when I first started, so I basically started off on the wrong foot already.

One question: should one do the convergence and all using a test pattern generated from the source, or should one just the internal ones?

Since each signal requires its own fine-tuning, I reckon it'd be best with a generated pattern? I'm feeding 720p from pc and use a Nokia tool right now.

For the mechanic setup I reckon the internal patterns can and should be used?

I added a repost of another method that can help on your sound issue in this forum.

I added a repost of another method that can help on your sound issue in this forum.

*edit*
Ah gotcha, now I know what you mean! I'll read through it and probably give it a go, as the first lines already state the cost is nihil and it's fairly easy.


Ok back on track:

So I've got some coloration at the side edges of the screen:

http://www.drunkdragons.com/memberupload/DSCN1960.JPG


From what I was told probably wear; more light at the edges coming from the tubes with least wear?

Checking the individual colours, though, it seems there's most light in the middle. I tried to get it on picture, but the camera seems to overdo it a lot. Still I do feel with my eyes that the outer edges are actually slightly darker:

http://www.drunkdragons.com/memberupload/DSCN1954.JPG



http://www.drunkdragons.com/memberupload/DSCN1955.JPG



http://www.drunkdragons.com/memberupload/DSCN1956.JPG


a bit from the side:
http://www.drunkdragons.com/memberupload/DSCN1958.JPG




This effect seems independent of signal and resolution. Then there's the bar at the bottom showing, which I don't know what it is? But changing resolution does seem to make that disappear.

As said, right now I simply use 720p from the pc, using standard timings and all.


*edit*
actually looking at things a bit more closely, it seems that it indeed IS brighter in the middle of the screen. Is that some setting?


perhaps this is actually something that I shouldn't be addressing now, but rather do a full convergence following manual first?

Ok first things first...

I got referred to the description on Curt Palme for a PG projector PG Mechanical setup (http://www.curtpalme.com/NECPG_MechSetup1.shtm) , by a PG owner. Ofcourse there are differences, but most likely there are a lot of similarities as well.

For the mechanical setup, the PG owners start by centering the raster on the screen, by actually rotating CRC magnets at the back of the tubes. Then there's a ASTI something, but that seems to be electronic in the XG (found ASTI and put it to 0 in the menu anyway).

Is this raster centering needed on the XG as well? For one, it's hard to actually determine properly with the LC tubes... but checking through the lenses it seems the raster actually IS pretty decently in the center.

What to do? Unfortunately I can't find a similar extensive setup description for the XG on Curt Palme.

judging from the last two pics I would assume that you use a high-gain screen.

This causes hot-spotting, which shifts as you movie from the center to the sides

Ok first things first...

I got referred to the description on Curt Palme for a PG projector PG Mechanical setup (http://www.curtpalme.com/NECPG_MechSetup1.shtm) , by a PG owner. Ofcourse there are differences, but most likely there are a lot of similarities as well.

For the mechanical setup, the PG owners start by centering the raster on the screen, by actually rotating CRC magnets at the back of the tubes. Then there's a ASTI something, but that seems to be electronic in the XG (found ASTI and put it to 0 in the menu anyway).

Is this raster centering needed on the XG as well? For one, it's hard to actually determine properly with the LC tubes... but checking through the lenses it seems the raster actually IS pretty decently in the center.

What to do? Unfortunately I can't find a similar extensive setup description for the XG on Curt Palme.


Astig is both mechanical and electronic.

You first do the mechanical setting, then the electronic setting. For now you should probably skip the mechanical part of it (you can do that later once you are more familiar with the more "basic" adjustments).

As for raster centering: that is done via the menu in the XG (the PG series has a mechanical adjustment for that).

Btw, if you add your location to your profile, there might be someone in your area willing to assist you.

Kai

Thanks. I'll add the location, but doubt it'll help much, as I'm located in Sweden :cool:


So basically no need whatsoever to do any mechanical adjustments inside the projector (as for the PG)?

The screen I have is a very basic 1.0 gain one, bought from a german company on a well-known auctioning site.

Umm ahh, eventually you will want to tweak the astig magnets on the necks of the tubes.

Individual Raster Centering controls are only available when you have entered the service mode using 3151 passcode - but it won't work unless a user passcode is setup as well.

I wouldn't use 720p 60hz. You are in a 50hz country for a start - at least try 720p 75hz for local material. There's lots of more suitable res's than 720p 60hz. I use 1080i at 72 and 75hz, Kai using 1080i 96hz, some use 1440x816p at 72/72hz, or 1280x1152 at 50hz...

Your righthand edge looks like wear. You bottom edge looks strange - what happens if you use Position SHIFT to move the image up? Does it move too?

And if it's not sharp at 720p you need to tweak electronic astig/focus and if that doesn't work you need to tweak the astig magnets (advanced stuff).

A DVI input card is not sharper than VGA...well, maybe a little, but barely - not in my experience. If it's not sharp with VGA a DVI card won't help. It's all setup and throw distance related.

And I always use an external pattern.


Have fun.

Mark

Thanks, that gives me something to work with. So a Moome box isn't really a wise investment in conjuction with a HTPC as source?

I actually hadn't been into the ASTIG before at all, got stuck in the manual before as I didn't understand the ALIGNMENT vs CONVERGENCE. Now I do, realizing the ALIGNMENT is for green tube or all, whereas convergence is to get the red and blue raster precisely on top of the green.

As for the signal, 720p/60 is what I standard get with the ATI software, but that might be USA settings then?

Should use powerstrip and try a 75Hz? Why 75Hz, if the source material here is 50Hz? Best to keep 'simple' multiples, i.e. 1.5 times 50Hz = 75Hz?

I bought a Moome card to future proof my system, but it's not a huge performance increase - maybe a small one, but not huge.

I use powerstrip to set my resolutions - and there is more to it than just the refresh rate ;)

Mark

I've tried using powerstrip before, when I still had my LCD projector. It worked, but I ran into problems with the image being off-screen and I couldn't figure out how to fix it. I've now changed the max refresh rate for the 2nd output to 75Hz, and set the rate to that (still using the catalyst control center only).

720p on 75Hz seems to work fine... any reason to start with powerstrip again regardless? Or perhaps wait with that till later, when I've gotten the hang of the pj better?


*edit*
with all settings zeroed, I've done some of the mechanic setup on the tubes now (fixing the horizontal size so it's not too big and near the edges and fixing the image in the dead center, as far as I could manage with the hollow LC thing in front).

After that I now adjusted the angles of the tubes to align with the green on the test crosshair pattern. I attach a picture of how this looks now, and ask the question: is it ok to proceed from here, or should I adjust something mechanically in especially the red tube, to get it level? Right now the red is tilted... I know much can be adjusted electronically, but it's best to get as good a fit with mechanical setup first, right?

(by the way I've done some converging on a Barco Data 600 and a Sony 1271QM before, so I'm not totally unfamiliar with the procedures and process).

http://www.drunkdragons.com/memberupload/DSCN1966.JPG

Turn the Red Deflection yoke (big coil at the front). Don't touch the windings, but they are easy to avoid.


Eventually you may do some research on Porch Pixels/Sync width and tweak your resolution a bit more. If you have a HD source, I'd be using 1080i at 72/72/96hz (depending on the source refresh rate).

Mark

Actually, if Green and Blue lines are not dead level, you'll need to turn them too.

Turn the Red Deflection yoke (big coil at the front). Don't touch the windings, but they are easy to avoid.

I'm sorry but I'm not native English, I'm not sure I know what you mean here? You're not talking about those rings at the neck of the tube (under the (deflection?) board which can be folded down after unscrewing 2 screws)? Perhaps a picture says more than words...


Eventually you may do some research on Porch Pixels/Sync width and tweak your resolution a bit more. If you have a HD source, I'd be using 1080i at 72/72/96hz (depending on the source refresh rate).

Mark

I will mostly play regular DVD's from the pc, but I do have some 720p and 1080i though. Does 1080i at the rates you mention improve the image?

I plan to dig into theatertek/ffdshow combo again soon, after I upgrade my pc's hardware somewhat. I could upscale everything to 1080(i?) with ffdshow I guess.

I bought a Moome card to future proof my system, but it's not a huge performance increase - maybe a small one, but not huge.

I use powerstrip to set my resolutions - and there is more to it than just the refresh rate ;)

Mark


You did come from a MP modded video card though iirc.

The moome using DVI was a huge improvement over my stock ATI 9600 and the stock Nvidia Geforce 6800 over VGA.
A Mike Parker modded VGA output should be about as good as the moome DVI though, but it wasn't cheap either, nor is it still available iirc.




And to JoriS:

check these screenshots out:
a Nec 6PG Plus at 1080i96
http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3306

The deflection coils are the BIG black coils right up the front of the tube.

See picture attached.

You did come from a MP modded video card though iirc.

The moome using DVI was a huge improvement over my stock ATI 9600 and the stock Nvidia Geforce 6800 over VGA.
A Mike Parker modded VGA output should be about as good as the moome DVI though, but it wasn't cheap either, nor is it still available iirc.

Mine was BNC modded, not MP modded, but probably much the same.

But how about we let him learn how to setup the XG before he starts lusting after than last 5%?...

Mine was BNC modded, not MP modded, but probably much the same.

But how about we let him learn how to setup the XG before he starts lusting after than last 5%?...

most definitely.
That's why I suggested skipping mechanical astig for now :)

Yep, astig later.

But Joris, you will need to level the crosshairs by rotating the Def coils (with electronics at zero and loosen black clamp first!). This is essential.

Thanks Mark, and thanks kschmit2!

Those are some impressive photo's as well. I've downloaded the png and will at some point give it a go and see what it looks like at my place.

Although I agree that I should first learn the entire process before worrying about those final %, you guys did get me curious as to what that BNC/MP mod is?

But alas, this evening I'll continue the setup process from ground up. The deflection coil seems easy to find :cool:

I'll try and get some dark string to mark the lines and determine whether the crosshair is level, starting with the green.

Yep, astig later.

But Joris, you will need to level the crosshairs by rotating the Def coils (with electronics at zero and loosen black clamp first!). This is essential.

Everything is at 0, except for image position, which I adjusted while looking at the tube to get the image in the center of the raster.

Black clamp... well I'm currently at work and can't have a look to confirm I know what clamp you are talking about... does it involve loosening any screws?

Nup it's a black finger clamp - you'll find it. There's also a clamp for the focus coil, you don't want that one.

A laser level is really handy to use instead of string too.

Nup it's a black finger clamp - you'll find it. There's also a clamp for the focus coil, you don't want that one.

Just came home for lunch, I know what you mean now. Thanks.

@dokworm
I have a cheap-ass laser level, but it doesn't really produce a long line. Only a couple of inches, so not that handy. It doesn't have a standing foot either or such which could be used to keep the laser on the same spot on the screen. I'll make do with string and tape.

I just mentioned it as you can buy a self levelling laser that projects a cross hair for about $30, and they are well handy for setup.

Ok now I've done the YOKE and continued with the ASTIG (through remote). The dots all had rather unequal size, i.e. comparing the different colours and positions on screen (right now I'm having a bit of a trapezoid with a narrower top than bottom).

After that the electrical focus (I did the lens fine focus after the YOKE), but I'm having a hard time of it. I don't know really how sharp things CAN get, but for one I can't get the edges equally sharp as the centre. For some positions it hardly even matters what I do with the electrical focus, it doesn't seem to affect the focus noticeably.

Is this my eyes deceiving me, a ****** screen I'm projecting on, dirty something or should I check something else? I know there are 3 potmeters for RGB focus under the cover, those I haven't touched but perhaps I should?

No Don't Touch Those!

:d

No Don't Touch Those!

:d


Hehehe fine, but what DO I do? Or simply satisfy myself with that as is? Is signal quality an issue there?

Now the next thing; this is my test pattern for the green now:

http://www.drunkdragons.com/memberupload/DSCN1968.JPG


As you can see, the horizontal lines are a little bit bowing up and down towards the edges. A bit of an eye shape. I've tried many of the ALIGNMENT options now, but can't seem to get it sorted... do I need the coarse point convergence for this?

Also there's a little strange 'disturbance' near the bottom which I'm not sure what it is, but might be caused by the signal frequency? (720p @ 75Hz)
I didn't see it on 720p60 before.

Go to the left on linearity then correct pincushion. Go to point then normalize. For starters. You store by hitting 'store' then 'enter'. Doug

Go to the left on linearity then correct pincushion. Go to point then normalize. For starters. You store by hitting 'store' then 'enter'. Doug

Do I use the NORMAL button for that? I used that at start to reset all to 0.. I don't think I should do that now...


*edit*
Using LINEARITY and PINCUSHION I cannot fix this. If the lines are horizontal on the centre part of the screen, the side edges start bending out.

I went into RGB POINT, then chose COARSE and chose NORMAL and enter. Did the same for MEDIUM and FINE, but didn't seem to change anything.

This is strange, when I did my first quick converging but without changing any of the settings to 0 beforehand, I had a much better and straighter raster.

No Don't Touch Those!

:d


Eh? Why not? It's just the focus pots - he will need to tweak them.

The only thing to be carefull off is to set the Blue Defocus in the menu to off, focus it up with the pot, and then turn Blue defocus on again.

But don't touch any other pots!

I haven't read the entire tread. Just saw the last grid photo.
Those lines are way too thick and thickness should be closer vertically and horizontally.

While in point hit normal then confirm yes. Do this for each color. Store-enter. This is just incase point was used before. Doug

You're where I was around 2 months ago with my XG. Honestly, the best thing you can do is to read the manual. While it may be a little technically advanced, most of the questions you've asked thus far can be answered from the manual.

In terms of convergence, you should be able to get it pretty good just by fooling around for a bit. First use the crosshair pattern to do the mechanical setup. Then use tilt/skew and bow to make the green crosshair properly straight (a laser pointer or string is essential for this step). Then do the same with the blue and red to converge them onto the green. Next, you need to do linearity and amplitude to converge the red and blue onto the green. Then do any individual keystoning to fix the corners (mostly where just one edge is tilted). Make sure you know that you can select individual corners by using CTRL + arrow. I didn't know this and it was quite embarrassing when Mark had to point it out :). Also, don't forget to do some geometry somewhere inbetween (such as pincushion and keystone).

The hardest part with the XG is definitely astig and optical focus, but it will give you the most improvement I think. If you're screen size and angle are covered in the manual for lense flapping (focus rings), consider yourself lucky. I have to basically use trial and error (if anyone knows a better way, I'd appreciate it!).

Anyways, good luck! Maybe you won't end up needing someone to come calibrate it (although I have a torus screen which complicates things even more :( ).

-Jeff (who wishes he bought a cheap starter projector before the XG).

While in point hit normal then confirm yes. Do this for each color. Store-enter. This is just incase point was used before. Doug

I did do that, but didn't make a difference. So I guess it was at 0 from the overall data reset I did prior to starting the process.


I haven't read the entire tread. Just saw the last grid photo.
Those lines are way too thick and thickness should be closer vertically and horizontally.

There's no need to read it all, the latest problems are always at the end :D
I would agree that the lines are rather thick, especially after seeing these photos from Gary:
http://home.bigsandybb.com/gmurrell/theater/screenshot28focus.jpg
http://home.bigsandybb.com/gmurrell/theater/screenshotgeometery.jpg

But then my question: how do I get those lines thinner? Also I should say that the lines are at least somewhat thinner in reality, it's partly the camera having moved slightly while taking the picture.


You're where I was around 2 months ago with my XG. Honestly, the best thing you can do is to read the manual. While it may be a little technically advanced, most of the questions you've asked thus far can be answered from the manual.


I've read through most of it, but I find the actual convergence process rather poorly explained. They don't really explain how to fix certain problems and the function of many of the adjustments is really hardly discussed at all? But I'll read more and more until I can dream it :)

The hardest part with the XG is definitely astig and optical focus, but it will give you the most improvement I think. If you're screen size and angle are covered in the manual for lense flapping (focus rings), consider yourself lucky. I have to basically use trial and error (if anyone knows a better way, I'd appreciate it!).


Do you mean those rings which can be set at a value between 1 and 5?
I got the manual for XG85LC / 135LC, but have been told the 110LC has the same built as teh 135LC so I'm using the settings which are listed in the manual for that one.


Anyways, good luck! Maybe you won't end up needing someone to come calibrate it (although I have a torus screen which complicates things even more :( ).

-Jeff (who wishes he bought a cheap starter projector before the XG).


Thanks :)
I won't get somebody in to calibrate just now, as we will not be living here that long.. max a year. I rather wait until we find something more permanent. On the other hand, getting an expert in and learning the procedure might mean I can do it myself in our future house... (just not as good!)


Eh? Why not? It's just the focus pots - he will need to tweak them.

The only thing to be carefull off is to set the Blue Defocus in the menu to off, focus it up with the pot, and then turn Blue defocus on again.

But don't touch any other pots!


Ok so I can use those for adjusting? That would hopefully give me a sharper focus.

But the first thing I feel should be fixed is the raster pattern. If I get that in order, the 'rest' is to get perfect convergence and optimal focus and all.


Thanks for all replies guys! I'll be digging in later this afternoon again, when it gets dark (around 15.30 these days here in Sweden!!).

Well as long as he is talking the correct focus pots, I don't know the Xtra but on the plus they aren't under a cover - the only ones under a cover are the naughty pots.

You are using the 'upper' and 'lower' pincushion to try and get the bend out aren't you?

Well as long as he is talking the correct focus pots, I don't know the Xtra but on the plus they aren't under a cover - the only ones under a cover are the naughty pots.

You are using the 'upper' and 'lower' pincushion to try and get the bend out aren't you?

Well I can't really seem to get an 'upper' and 'lower' pincushion :confused:

With many other settings I can use th CTRL button plus an arrow or so, to swap to edge or center etc. But not with the pincushion. Or not that I know?

If there is a way to adjust only upper or lower, then yes that would definately fix the problem!

What projector do you have, by the way?

I have a 6PG+ , but I always use the PCCFW software to control it via an old tablet PC, I find it much much faster than the service remote.

You can adjust Pincushion at the top and the bottom separately. It is probably just CTRL UP or CTRL DOWN, but I can't remember - the software just has separate sliders for it.
Unfortunately I can't check for you with the remote at the moment as my PJ is in bits.

I read about the PC Control software, downloaded manual and such as well. But don't have the cabling for it, nor do I know how well it works and if it wouldn't only make things harder for me right now. I'll try and see if I can get to adjust the pincushion for the edges, will keep you posted.


I read your other topic about the error codes... any progress?

JorisS,
On the XG you set the center electronic focus to center cursor on each color then use the three focus pots labeled R-G-B on the wave board. This is on shown on the decal on top cover of the card cage. This will be the start point for best center of screen focus for each color. This will give good range over and under when you correct electronic center focus.

When in green pincushion you have pincushion top to bottom using the up and down arrows. Left and right arrows correct the sides. If you hold the CTL button down then hit pin it will give you pincushion balance. Arrows work the same way for this. Balance is ( ( where reg is ) (. This is the same for top to bottom but you use the top and bottom buttons.
Red and Blue you select using CTL then hit the R or B button. On these you have each side to select from. Doug

JorisS,
On the XG you set the center electronic focus to center cursor on each color then use the three focus pots labeled R-G-B on the wave board. This is on shown on the decal on top cover of the card cage.

When in green pincushion you have pincushion top to bottom using the up and down arrows. Left and right arrows correct the sides. If you hold the CTL button down then hit pin it will give you pincushion balance. Arrows work the same way for this. Balance is ( ( where reg is ) (. This is the same for top to bottom but you use the top and bottom buttons.
Red and Blue you select using CTL then hit the R or B button. On these you have each side to select from. Doug


Thanks Doug,

that more or less confirms what I thought (that I couldn't adjust top and bottom separately for green), and also what I was just reading in the manual. It says for the convergence (R + B) section that one can select top and bottom, not for the green.

That does however end me up with still the same problem. I'm guessing I'll need combinations of pincusion, bow, balance? I don't understand why the raster in 'zero' position is this awkward really.

If post 49 is what your getting with no corrections your really doing well. You need to 'tell' the projector what your physical install is so it can 'know' what the geometry is suppose to be and then remember it for each signal entry and phase settings.

Lets say new out of the box it only knows to be a 100" diag 4:3 front ceiling projector and at the exact throw distance to be focused IF you run the exact same freqs that were put in at the factory.

Used from a previous install it only knows the last install.

Your at the start of telling it what to do for your HT and sources being used. Doug

If post 49 is what your getting with no corrections your really doing well. You need to 'tell' the projector what your physical install is so it can 'know' what the geometry is suppose to be and then remember it for each signal entry and phase settings.

Lets say new out of the box it only knows to be a 100" diag 4:3 front ceiling projector and at the exact throw distance to be focused IF you run the exact same freqs that were put in at the factory.

Used from a previous install it only knows the last install.

Your at the start of telling it what to do for your HT and sources being used. Doug


Yes it is without corrections. The problem is that it seems I can't figure out how to tell the pj what to do. I.e. I can't figure out a combination of adjusting several things to actually get a straight raster.

What I did just do was create a new entry (using same signal), using the following steps:

INPUT A -> RGB -> NAME INPUT -> DEFAULT (initial data select)


After that I get the following test pattern:


http://www.drunkdragons.com/memberupload/DSCN1977.JPG


This seems to be better in terms of the raster being straighter. The values for pincushion and other stuff are far from 0 though. For example:

PINCUSHION: -60% (H) +36% (V)
TILT: +12% (H) -34% (V)
BOW: -11% (H) +7% (V)
LINEARITY: 0% (H) +25% (V)
KEYSTONE: ´83% (H) +11% (V)


Do such values appear to be ok, or is the mechanical setup poorly done then?

Should I simply printout these values and use as reference for my other signal, where I appear to be so darn stuck?

It isn't strange that I'm having a hard time if it requires changes in 4 or 5 settings, which each in turn affect eachother...




One side question: what is this PHASE thing? I did read the manual, several times on the specific topic, but I simply don't understand what they mean by it.

Raster is not actual image. Raster can be seen raising brightness to 100%. This needs to be centered in the tube face. Actual image can be centered in the raster using position/ shift.

Forget about your values, at least until you get it the actual image size to fit the screen.
You tell it to remember by storing 'store then enter' The internal test patterns are 10% overscanned so dont use those. You can use Avia test DVD or the actual image.

You need a lot more reading to grasp it but the cross-hair test pattern you correct first, make this as perfect as you can. This will give you your start point for tilt / skew and just about everything else. If you marked your screen for center in four points then it makes it easier. With that done keystone will be more acurate but dont change tilt / skew once you correct it for green and store it. Doug

Phase has to be done right after the signal entry for anything to work out. Do a search or look at the picture in the manual.

Ok, will try my best. Thanks.

I felt before I was nicely on my way, but now I feel like yet another newbie who gets scolded for not reading the manual properly... :(

It's probably true though. A lack of time (sequential hours anyway) and eagerness to progress are partly to be blamed for that. And my nature.

//Joris

Because we have a terrible search engine:
XG Phase:
Hit the phase button.
You will get a tilted test pattern. Disregard the tilt and just look at the green.
Make the center line going from left to right as straight as possible even though its tilted with the left and right arrows. Use the up and down button to center the vertical line in the center of the screen. Store then enter. Note: If you are using point and you have a 'hump' center the hump on the vertical line. Store then enter. You do this for each signal entry.

Raise brightness to see the raster, if you see a upswing in the raster correct with the left right arrows to fine tune. Recheck center vertical or hump centering. This will be a bit different between models and firmware versions but the basics are the same.

JorisS its not scolding and not intended that way but over the last eight years we have went over this a bunch. The search engine isnt the best. I couldnt even get it to come up or find it. Frustrating. Doug

Sorry didn't mean to come across offended or anything, that's the limits of not being native English speaking there... scolded wasn't the proper word.

What you say is exactly what I meant though; you guys have gone through such tons of times, and I am actually trying to avoid asking the same just yet another time. But I reckon the reason the same gets asked so often, is because it simply is confusing :cool:

The 'problem' is that I on one hand want to try and do a setup as good as I possibly can, on the other hand we are planning to watch entire season 5 of 24 in one straight run this saturday... so I'm supposed to have a watcheable image on the screen by then.

:eek:

So i'm a bit stuck between settling for 'good enough' and yet trying to optimize and get things as good as possible. For the latter I simply need more knowledge and understanding though.

Thanks for the explanation of the PHASE thing. I do get a hump, and a square around the central vertical (and horizontal) line. I did put the hump in the middle there, as good as possible. As for the left - right: scrolling through I get a wave through the screen, which I adjusted to get it out of the screen... it just felt wrong having such a curve/wave in the screen. I guess -despite not fully understanding the function- I did the right thing then.

Try to fix the pincushion, then re-read my post and see if you can do everything listed in that order. If you do, you'll get it converged and watchable. Optical focus doesn't need to be that great to get something watchable, but it definitly needs to be converged.

By the way, if anyone has any tips for doing lense flapping not covered in the XG manual, I'd greatly appreciate it! I can't seem to get it right and every time I change the flapping I have to adjust the gun alignment and physical angle of the projector a bit and then re-do static convergence (aka PITA!).

Thanks. Hope you find some help with the lense flapping issue as well!
I have roughly a 100" diagonal screen, so it's covered. As for the angle, the pj is hanging level so I assume it's the 'standard' angle of 12.4 degrees or what it is.


When I did the mechanical setup I used this guideline:

MechSetup PG (Curt Palme) (http://www.curtpalme.com/NECPG_MechSetup1.shtm)

Its for a PG and I noticed some things are different. But is this in general a good guide to follow?

Much of it is the same except to center the rasters you use electronic centering in the service mode under raster centering. PG uses mechanical centering rings. Doug

I now managed to get a pretty decent grid for the green tube :cool:

Using mostly the settings meant for it, but to fine-tune I did use a bit of point convergence. That ought to be ok.

Now though the red and blue pattern are rather far off to start with from center. I thought I'd have to do the magnet adjustment (mechanical) to get the vertical central lines aligned, but now you say it's electronic on the XG I get doubts.
One thing I found odd though: when adjusting the POSITION, the horizontal position responds normally to me adjusting it bigger or smaller. Yet when I adjust the vertical, I see the screen 'flicker' somewhat but there's really no movement in the projected grid on the screen?

So I don't know how to align the red and blue now, and I very much doubt I have to point convergence that much.

Might have been doing too much now on the green and the mechanic setup, so that I consequently forgot and/or lost track of the basics of aligning red and blue....

quick hinters? ;)

*edit*
Girlfriend just came home with the camera, so here's a picture of the green grid and then one showing how the red and blue are off:

http://www.drunkdragons.com/memberupload/DSCN1984.JPG

http://www.drunkdragons.com/memberupload/DSCN1986.JPG

I don't think your rasters are centered properly. There's no other way to move the red/blue that much vertically without moving the raster AFAIK. Try doing CTRL+POSITION for red and blue vertically. Use the crosshair pattern for this.

I don't think your rasters are centered properly. There's no other way to move the red/blue that much vertically without moving the raster AFAIK. Try doing CTRL+POSITION for red and blue vertically. Use the crosshair pattern for this.

If I do that, I can only change raster ALL

This DOES however now give me the possibility of moving the image vertically, which didn't really respond before.
But since it's for all tubes, I can't individually adjust red and blue.

I can raise green perhaps, but blue and red are not aligned either. And might move along anyway...

Ok after an MSN session with Jeff (NautikaL) we came no further than to decide to throw another post.

The thing is, when I push CTRL + POSITION, the menu popping up says

RASTER CENTERING
CRT -ALL-

from there if I try CTRL + R or B it says '*KEY INPUT ERROR*'

Hence I can only adjust the vertical position of all tubes simultaneously, not only red or blue.

Jeff says he can get to adjust R and B separately.


I don't know if I've got some setting wrong somewhere, or if there's a difference depending on what input you use. I use VGA -> 5x BNC from the PC at 720p75Hz.

I'm (we're?!) at a loss here... It seems I cannot at the moment adjust the vertical alignment of my red and blue tube, making it virtually impossible for me to do a convergence, with in mind that when I go into POSITION SHIFT there's no response to changes I make in the vertical slider....

HELP!? :( :confused:


*edit*
Jeff has a XG110 regular, when he pushes the CTRL + POSITION it says

"RASTER Position CRT -G"

then when pushing CTRL + R it swaps to

"Raster position CRT - R"


The only thing I can do at the moment, what I know, is use the STATIC (under POSTION) to move red and blue... but Jeff says I don't want to do that, not more than a line width anyway...

*edit 2*

Could it be we have different versions of FIRMWARE or so?

My version info says the following:

HARWARE VERSION 2.0

SOFWARE VERSION
BIOS 2.02
APPLICATION 2.10
DATA 1.30
SUB-CPU 1.00
D-CONV 2.00
OSC 2.30

You have to be in service mode - you aren't.

To enter service mode enter passcode 3151.

BUT you have to have setup a user passcode first, otherwise service mode will NOT work.

So setup a user passcode (say 1111), then enter 3151 to get into service mode.

Then you will get separate raster centering controls.

You have to be in service mode - you aren't.

To enter service mode enter passcode 3151.

BUT you have to have setup a user passcode first, otherwise service mode will NOT work.

So setup a user passcode (say 1111), then enter 3151 to get into service mode.

Then you will get separate raster centering controls.

If you were anywhere nearby, I'd give you a HUG!! :D

Unfortunately it's 0.45 AM here and I turned off the pj, so I'll check and do it tomorrow. But I trust you to be right on this!


GREAT!!! :D


*edit*
A projector is quickly switched on...

IT WORKS!!

Thanks a LOT!

Well well now I've 'finalized'.

I'm well aware there's still much more to be gained, but right now I'm satisfied with the result and confident we can enjoy the picture watching 24 tomorrow :)

Just one thing, about brightness and contrast...

I have a DVE (Digital Video Essentials, basically similar to AVIA but a PAL version), but there's soooo much talking and I don't have the time nor patience for that now. Now I used the Nokia tool with the image with the % of blackness. But there are several ways to achieve the % so they can just be seen as they roughly should be (combining different combinations of brightness and contrast).

If I raise the brightness to almost full, I get the best detail in dark scenes, but the image gets too bright imo. Unfortunately I have white walls and ceiling, so I guess I'll just have to deal with that.

My values now are

BRIGHTNESS 75%
CONTRAST 40%

is that somewhat reasonable?

Can anybody recommend a quick and easy to use tool (preferably with short manual/help) to try and optimize the brightness/contrast?

Higher contrast wears the tubes faster, what about brightness?

Grateful for some final help, I'll post some pictures in a bit.

Brightness 60-65 Contrast 50-60 on average. If 24 is anything like DTV channel program its going to be dark. Doug

Look in the tube face and raise the brightness until you just see the back raster light up for a quick no reading / listening setting or use Avia pattern to set but you will need to listen.
The W/B settings in kelvin can also be used but more advanced and requires reading. B sets the low IRE but you can get this to high also. Curts site has how to adjust grayscale also. Doug

Ok, I didn't want to go too high in the contrast in fear of wear, but if 50-60 is ok then I can go somewhat further and lower brightness some more.

Here are the current pics:

http://www.drunkdragons.com/memberupload/DSCN1991.JPG


http://www.drunkdragons.com/memberupload/DSCN1992.JPG


http://www.drunkdragons.com/memberupload/DSCN1993.JPG


http://www.drunkdragons.com/memberupload/DSCN1994.JPG



This is the original image of the eagle:

http://img1.jurko.net/wide/wallpaper_138.jpg


If I want to be able to see the feathers properly I need to raise the brightness almost all the way to 100, but that's ugly pale then.

Look in the tube face and raise the brightness until you just see the back raster light up for a quick no reading / listening setting or use Avia pattern to set but you will need to listen.


Does it matter for which tube? The green one has a much lower brightness than the red and blue. If i do as you say for green, I can still see the raster very clearly for red and blue. I've never tampered with GAIN or anything else, but I'm not the first user...



The W/B settings in kelvin can also be used but more advanced and requires reading. B sets the low IRE but you can get this to high also. Curts site has how to adjust grayscale also. Doug


I'll save that for later.



One more thing: looking into the tube there's a rather distinct, bright line (like the menu almost) which is at the utter bottom of my image, and it's actually touching the sides of the tube!

It seems to be an artefact, but do I need to worry about it? Wouldn't know what to do about it...

*edit*
Hrm it's only there when I lower contrast to 0 it seems... peeked in with 'normal' image and it's not there.

You can find the Digital Video Essentials PAL manual here http://videoessentials.com/Manuals.php?referrer=NTSC

Thanks a lot for all help guys!

I seriously wouldn't have managed this without!
Very much appreciated!


One last question for now is one I've posed before; I still have coloration towards the sides of the screen:

http://www.drunkdragons.com/memberupload/DSCN1995.JPG



I have a 1.0 gain screen, and the walls here are rather white. Looking in the tubes carefully it appears to be uniform there.

it's not disturbing, just wondering what can cause it.

*edit*
the image is pretty poor.. white is whiter in reality. It actually doesn't really seem to be edges, rather a bit of a halo with the brightest spot in the center.

can you take pictures of that white image from the sides please?

I.e. camera not in the center, but from the left and right.

can you take pictures of that white image from the sides please?

I.e. camera not in the center, but from the left and right.

I'll do that this weekend, have switched off the pj in order to do a slight bit of socializing :D

We had one heck of a day, watched entire 24 season 5 in one run and nobody complained of headaches or any other nasty things which might be poor-image-related :cool:

I am loving this projector!
The fan mod held out well during roughly 18 hours as well :)