Sorry... I dont have any insider information or details regarding these badboys...
I probably know as much as you know...

But... It seems like SVS has updated their news section since their last posting two months ago... In their newsletter (see link below), they announce the price increase as well as the unveiling of the new Ultra woofer based subs as CES 2007.

So, lets hear the guesses as to what we think we will see come Jan 8-11 from SVS..

Personally, I am wondering what kind of enclosure they will put the ultrawoofers in, ported or sealed, maybe both? Will they do both single and dual sub configurations? Where will they be priced at and what finishes will be available?

If the new driver is indeed a 13 or 14 inch driver, will this new sub be direct competition for the Fathom 13 driver?

I dont know about you but I just cant wait for CES 2007 anymore :p

Cheers! ;)

Tom didn't give too much away, but here's some tidbits over at HTSpot:

http://www.hometheaterspot.com/htsthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/817980/an/0/page/0#Post818221

Wow! Very exciting news!

It's awfully quiet around here now....

Agreed...

Whatever the case, I am still looking forward to what SVS showcases at CES07..

The link posted above was indeed good news as Tom claims significant gain over the current Ultra woofers... cant wait to see actual measurements and tests.

Maybe the bar will be raised yet again?

07 Looks like a promising year for Electronics..

Tom didn't give too much away, but here's some tidbits over at HTSpot:

http://www.hometheaterspot.com/htsthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/817980/an/0/page/0#Post818221

Just finished reading the whole thread (on & off at work) and some very interesting stuff..

Thx 4 posting jvgillow..

From TV in that Spot link:


Anything from JL is sure to be a quality product. The new(and current) Ultras are a different beast with different design goals though. If you are looking for the best performance from a relatively small enclosure in the $3000 range…The JL113 demands consideration. But if you are willing to accept a larger enclosure the new PBUltra will have huge performance advantages in the deeper bass frequencies(15-30hz) and we won’t be giving up much(if anything) in “upper bass slam factor) either..:)

The new Ultra driver (designed by Stephen Ponte) is a work of art. I’ve had the privilege of working with some of the best driver designer’s in the industry for the past decade and Stephen’s work is second to none and FAR superior to most. My longtime R/D partner Jim Farina is equally astute with his work on porting, amp design, enclosure design, ect. These two young engineers will be making waves in the industry for a long long time…mark my words here.

Also, remember that the new SB12plus is just the first design in the “small” subwoofer market for SVS. We’ll definitely expand that “family” of products in the future…although nothing is close to be finalized on those designs yet. This “family” definitely lends itself to the “multiple subwoofer” ideology of course.

Should be interesting to say the least. :)

If people thought the bar was already being raised, now they will really know it.

This is great news for sub fanatics,more performance ...over what is great performance in the current TV12 driver!

The current SVS Ultras are incredible, so the new ones will undoubtedly blow some minds!! Like it has been stated though, the SVS Ultras and the JL's arent the same type of subwoofer and each has a different market. I am personally extremely grateful that JL has pushed the envelope of performance to such a high level with enclosures that are reasonably sized. They are a much easier sell to customers than a coffin sized box (even if the coffin has a pristine finish). It is a good time to be involved in home audio!!

yeah jl rocks!

two of the MK3 VTF subs will outperform the new PBU13.5 though

two of the MK3 VTF subs will outperform the new PBU13.5 though

OK johnlarsen, I'll call you out on that statement. There have been no published specs or performance results for the new Ultra with which to compare it to any other sub. Your statement goes beyond false. It is, by definition, absurd.

ab·surd /æbˈsɜrd, -ˈzɜrd/
–adjective 1. utterly or obviously senseless, illogical, or untrue; contrary to all reason or common sense; laughably foolish or false: an absurd explanation.
–noun 2. the quality or condition of existing in a meaningless and irrational world.


Tim

yeah jl rocks!

two of the MK3 VTF subs will outperform the new PBU13.5 though

Seriously.........why do you call me out about TALKING about SVS subs, and trying to learn more about sub performance in general.

Then you post STUPID statements like this that take all of your credibility away.

You just go around and say things that are ABSURD. You know NOTHING about the new SVS product yet and neither do we.

I bet you lube up your MK3 at night and make love to it don't you? :p

that strike a cord with the tongue wagging fans ay?

the pbU13.5 is as almost as good as two pbU12, so it wont be as good as two MK3VTF3.

id rather go with two MFW15 (ridiculous insane valued at 999$) or two MK3VTF3 which go lower and maybe more db 20hZ than the 15.

dont mind Johnlarsack.....he is harmless. He is just the resident SVS, uhm....I mean.....XYZ hater.

what would be the fun on the forum without the likes of him?? :p

two of the 12nsd will be very similar in performances to the 13.5U ;) :p ;)

I think I just sold my Plus/2, and was going to buy the F113, guess I need to wait to see what this brings.

Michael

two of the 12nsd will be very similar in performances to the 13.5U ;) :p ;)


Dude you are priceless!


LOL

Johnlarsen,

I would have to agree with the brown tongue defenders and say you cannot comment a product you have not even seen specs or have not tested yourself.

Do not be a hater or zzabifro may unleash his armchair warriors on you. :p

EAR, wassup? It came from the horses mouth that the 13.5 is almost as good as two 12pbU. is that good or bad to these ssambiso's or billyjuices i dont know, but thats what the was said

EAR, wassup? It came from the horses mouth that the 13.5 is almost as good as two 12pbU. is that good or bad to these ssambiso's or billyjuices i dont know, but thats what the was said


My friend....here is your statement

the pbU13.5 is as almost as good as two pbU12, so it wont be as good as two MK3VTF3

Your A>B and B>C then A>C little comparision DOESN'T work with a SUBWOOFER we have never even heard.

The ONLY way we will know if the pbU13.5 is better, the same, or worse than 2 MK3VTF3's is to have an acutal real life comparision.

I don't have a care in the world who wins either. If its the HSU, then great, if it is SVS then great.


ps........our tounges may wag but that is as far as they go...........but yours on the other hand def. licks some HSU A$$

the ironic thing about john's endless SVS-hating posts is that he is just as much a zealot (on the other side of the spectrum) as those he chooses to trash. for these reasons, he has little credibility and its best to just ignore him.

r u kidding billyjuices? you have been licking every body part known to man with your endless post about nsd12, nsd12. r u sure you are not on their XYZ marketing payroll?

in craigSUB test, look at where pbU is in relation to others, duh. if u really didnt care u wouldnt make such a stink out of it

What would a current Ultra driver sound like if it bottoms out?
I was playing U517 the other day and got a very distinct "crack
crack crack" sound. I thought it was one of my sound panels,
which is hung behind my sub clicking against the wall, but now I
am not so sure.

r u kidding billyjuices? you have been licking every body part known to man with your endless post about nsd12, nsd12. r u sure you are not on their XYZ marketing payroll?

in craigSUB test, look at where pbU is in relation to others, duh. if u really didnt care u wouldnt make such a stink out of it


I wish I worked for SVS to get a discount....LOL

But honestly.....I just like busting your balls :p

I like my SVS and I'll continue to ask questions about it and other subs. I have not been licking it...just talking about it. I don't think it would taste very good. LOL :D

and

you like your HSU


So who really cares.......

i don't have a HSU, never have had one. i prefer SEALED. i am saving up for one of the SEATON designed subs ;) HSU is very good very good for the $$$ though with their MK3

For anyone who called me a fanboy(you know who you are cyberspace warriors)I have too many brands to be a fanboy of any one brand.

I seriously hope the new SVS Ultra kicks the JL in a few spots so I can find an excuse to buy dual SVS Ultras. I am confident it will win the SPL war with little trouble,but how about SQ! SQ rankings are dominated by sealed subs :p

I have a Ultra/2 sub. I have been debating adding another. (Trying to keep up
with this neighborhood!!) Obviously the new Ultra is going to be a better sub,
but surely to be more expensive. Is it a good idea to mix different subs? To
you gain from one's strength over the other? Or is it smarter to use two of the
same subs? Money also becomes an issue. Is a current Ultra/2 for under 2k
a smarter move than the new Ultra/2 in the 2.5-3k range (quessing). Are we
reaching the area of diminishing returns? Sure it's great to have a sub that
plays 120db, but if you never play it that loud, what good is it? I can't believe
that in 18x18 room, I would ever strain two current Ultra/2's. EAR give me your
thoughts.

For anyone who called me a fanboy(you know who you are cyberspace warriors)I have too many brands to be a fanboy of any one brand.

I seriously hope the new SVS Ultra kicks the JL in a few spots so I can find an excuse to buy dual SVS Ultras. I am confident it will win the SPL war with little trouble,but how about SQ! SQ rankings are dominated by sealed subs :p


There's no way you can be married. ;)

For anyone who called me a fanboy(you know who you are cyberspace warriors)I have too many brands to be a fanboy of any one brand.

I seriously hope the new SVS Ultra kicks the JL in a few spots so I can find an excuse to buy dual SVS Ultras. I am confident it will win the SPL war with little trouble,but how about SQ! SQ rankings are dominated by sealed subs :p


LoL, I feel somewhat guilty of this statement... :o

However, I have now concluded that TheEAR is not a Brand Fanboy but a Performance Fanboy which in the end is something we all are.... TheEAR just happens to be very enthusiastic about which ever particular brand and/or product currently holds the crown..

Cheers to the Ear, a good fellow :)


Now, back to the order of business....

CES is only Two Weeks AWAY! :D :p :eek:

The suspense is killing me, I cant hardly wait...

I think I just sold my Plus/2, and was going to buy the F113, guess I need to wait to see what this brings.

Michael


Exactly... But like Ron and Tom from SVS have said, the Ultra has different goals than that of the JL. Both will be very good at what they do and I for one plan on buying one of each... One F113 and one PB13 Ultra/2 or whatever the name is.. One for HT use and one for Music use..

and since I like to play, House, Techno, Rock and Rap with the occasional Concerto I need a sub that will take a pounding and keep on ticking... :D :cool: :cool:

It's awfully quiet around here now....

The calm before the storm. CES will be SVS's coming out party. Oddly, HSU has dropped out from CES.

If people thought the bar was already being raised, now they will really know it.

Ever insightful.

yeah jl rocks!

two of the MK3 VTF subs will outperform the new PBU13.5 though

Baiting you guys.


Personally, I hope they do more than just a driver release, but if it's just the Ultra I hope it reflects a new "sound" in clean distortionless and fast bass.
Only time will tell.

Oddly, HSU has dropped out from CES.
Hsu Research are in Vegas at the - St. Tropez - 8th - 11th Jan 2007

Ddavidson

Hsu Research are in Vegas at the - St. Tropez - 8th - 11th Jan 2007

Ddavidson

I thought they were only going to be at T.H.E. Show.
My mistake then.

swgiust,

It is always better to use multiples of the same subwoofer. As it will be more complex to mix and match them well.

But here you have a vented sub from SVS in the Ultra/2,adding the newer Ultra/2 V2 or whatever it will be named should be an easy match. Could be tuned lower,not by much,and will move more air(higher max output).These two should integrate very well.

I would email the SVS team to make sure.

Getting kinda antsy, only a week to go...

Will be interesting to see specs on SVS's version of a 13' sub as well as their new enclosure designs...

Wondering if the Ultra/2 will be showcased also. Some of SVS's forum posts suggest only the single driver models will be at CES with the dual driver models coming later in the year..

Actually, Ron backed away from the statement in their Winter newsletter that new Ultra subs would be shown -- all he has promised is the driver for inspection. This is an improvement from a month or so ago when only pictures of the driver were to be available.

I'm sure SVS is trying very hard to have a working display model :)

Last I heard the cylinder was going to be production ready first, followed by the single driver cabinets, and the dual driver cabinets a few months away.

The new SVS 'processor', in development for a year, and about which Ron will say nothing :), will be unveiled.

Only a few more days now...

Ggunnell - Please keep us posted on the new "U-13" ... It definitely will have a place "at the table" for the on going subwoofer shoootout. Based on what the $600 PB12-NSD unit is doing, I am sure the new Ultra is going to be SVS's best yet ... no small feat, replacing an almost 5 year old, yet still competitive, driver.

What would a current Ultra driver sound like if it bottoms out?
I was playing U517 the other day and got a very distinct "crack
crack crack" sound. I thought it was one of my sound panels,
which is hung behind my sub clicking against the wall, but now I
am not so sure.

The noise you described is pretty much the description of a driver bottoming.

Actually, Ron backed away from the statement in their Winter newsletter that new Ultra subs would be shown -- all he has promised is the driver for inspection. This is an improvement from a month or so ago when only pictures of the driver were to be available.

I'm sure SVS is trying very hard to have a working display model :)



:( :eek: :(

Ggunnell - Please keep us posted on the new "U-13" ... It definitely will have a place "at the table" for the on going subwoofer shoootout. Based on what the $600 PB12-NSD unit is doing, I am sure the new Ultra is going to be SVS's best yet ... no small feat, replacing an almost 5 year old, yet still competitive, driver.

We'll all know more in a few days :)

One thing that puzzles me is why CES is just after Christmas. The product development cycles I've seen for the past few years would put CES between April 1 and September 1, tending toward the latter to promo products for the Holiday selling season. After Christmas is the worst possible time IMO...

It awfully hot in Vegas in those parts of the year. I agree that right after Christmas isnt the best time but there is always Cedia and the RMAF.

:( :eek: :(

TrzVpr, I'm hoping Ron is just being careful not to over-promise on a product still in development. It's tough when a product is almost ready -- do you take a chance that the as-is product will get less that stellar reviews, or worst, fail in some unexpected way?

The last thing we want is audio products designed on a yearly marketing basis -- whoops, we already have that, don't we? :)

Originally Posted by ggunnell

One thing that puzzles me is why CES is just after Christmas. The product development cycles I've seen for the past few years would put CES between April 1 and September 1, tending toward the latter to promo products for the Holiday selling season. After Christmas is the worst possible time IMO...
There use to be two shows. The Vegas show was known as the "Winter CES" and was the smaller of the two shows. The "Summer CES" was the bigger roll out, and was in Chicago around June. Some time in the 90's the summer show stoped being. Don't know why. Maybe people like Vegas in the winter better than Chicago in the summer.

CEDIA was up and running in the 90's so maybe it was a natural replacement for "CES Summer".

It awfully hot in Vegas in those parts of the year. I agree that right after Christmas isnt the best time but there is always Cedia and the RMAF.

Chicago would be a more central location ... :)

Chicago would be a more central location ...
Yes it is, and has a major airport, good public transportation, hotels, restaurants, etc. Chicago was the place for conventions and trade shows with McCormic Place.

But, Orlando and Las Vegas have worked very hard to become trade show venues. And lets face it, Chicago has a hard time competing with Walt Disney or Sin. ;)

TrzVpr, I'm hoping Ron is just being careful not to over-promise on a product still in development. It's tough when a product is almost ready -- do you take a chance that the as-is product will get less that stellar reviews, or worst, fail in some unexpected way?

The last thing we want is audio products designed on a yearly marketing basis -- whoops, we already have that, don't we? :)


ggunnell,

Dont you hate it when your right?? :confused: :p

You have a point and that is why SVS produces such a great product, because they take such pride in their product development..

I was hoping to pick one up for a Excersice room I have going and really wouldnt want to wait 6 months to buy a sub..

Of course, If I buy a sub right now then it wouldnt be the one I want so I guess I'll wait to hear more details..

I mean dual 13 Ultra woofers in a ported enclosure and 1Kw+ power from SVS.. Well I want to hear it first before I plunk my money elsewhere..

At least well get to see the new driver.. :rolleyes:

The new Ultra protos are laying down numbers that are so "out there", I had trouble digesting them. While we are still tweaking the final production power levels, both the Ultra and the Ultra/2 will be understressed (read bullet-proof and very low distortion) with our new amp platforms. It took a 5000 watt Crown Macro to get the Ultra/2 to break a sweat during endurance testing. :)

With that said, the new Ultra woof is not the biggest story at SVS IMHO. Expect flatter FRs, improved upper bass headroom/linearity, and roll-off profiles that both improve transient response and are better matched to the acoustic transfer function of the typical customer's room.

When taken separately, each of these changes might be viewed as minor, but together they are proving to be quite synergistic and significantly improve the in-room acoustic signature of the subwoofer under any application, but particularly for music.

. . . (edited). . .
With that said, the new Ultra woof is not the biggest story at SVS IMHO. Expect flatter FRs, improved upper bass headroom/linearity, and roll-off profiles that both improve transient response and are better matched to the acoustic transfer function of the typical customer's room.

When taken separately, each of these changes might be viewed as minor, but together they are proving to be quite synergistic and significantly improve the in-room acoustic signature of the subwoofer under any application, but particularly for music.

Now I can't let that go by :)

What IS the biggest story? Are the improvements you delineate going to apply to ALL SVS subs -- via new electronics? enclosures? Outboard 'processor'?

Thanks for the music part. Reproducing live music is worth the effort, IMO.

Yes it is, and has a major airport, good public transportation, hotels, restaurants, etc. Chicago was the place for conventions and trade shows with McCormic Place.

But, Orlando and Las Vegas have worked very hard to become trade show venues. And lets face it, Chicago has a hard time competing with Walt Disney or Sin. ;)

Bob,

Off topic, but you're completely right. I've done a lot of work on trade shows/conferences for my employers and/or clients in the past, and Orlando, Las Vegas, and San Francisco (you forgot that one) sell out. Attendee comments from these locations are that the air travel was expensive, the ground transportation lacking, the hotels too expensive, etc., etc., but they show up. In post event surveys they *say* it would be better to put it in a place like St. Louis, but show up when it's in one of those other three.

-Robb

Maybe ed was talking about the processor.

Sounds very tempting, and I'm looking at adding a sub, BUT, I'm confused.

There is a link near the beginning of the thread that says the prices for the new model will be higher, yet says 2 can be had for 2.5 (thousand). This implies about $1250 each.

Am I missing something? Aren't the current models significantly higher? :confused:

The new Ultra protos are laying down numbers that are so "out there", I had trouble digesting them. While we are still tweaking the final production power levels, both the Ultra and the Ultra/2 will be understressed (read bullet-proof and very low distortion) with our new amp platforms. It took a 5000 watt Crown Macro to get the Ultra/2 to break a sweat during endurance testing. :)

With that said, the new Ultra woof is not the biggest story at SVS IMHO. Expect flatter FRs, improved upper bass headroom/linearity, and roll-off profiles that both improve transient response and are better matched to the acoustic transfer function of the typical customer's room.

When taken separately, each of these changes might be viewed as minor, but together they are proving to be quite synergistic and significantly improve the in-room acoustic signature of the subwoofer under any application, but particularly for music.

Ed - It appears SVS is getting serious about making subwoofers which are improved in the music department. A "guess" here is that you are going to incorporate some DSP amps into the new Ultra design.

Regardless - the new Dual driver Ultra should be a VERY worthy competitor to the Fathom 113, the VTF-3 HO, Mark Seaton's SUBmersive and the new BMF from AV123.

Looking forward to having it take on these four subs when the opportunity presents itself.

And Ed - Thanks for the hat AND T-Shirt in our PB12-NSD ... :)

Sounds like Ed is already making an impact at SVS. :D

Ed I want my new Ultra 2


Michael

So noone is hinting at a release date?hmmmmm.....?

CES needs to get here now. :p

I have to say wow. I think there is a lot more than we know about right now besides the ultra driver and subs we have new proccessor, the mid tower, and Large tower speakers still ahead and I think most people all but forgot about them. I hope the new speaker will make others sit up and take notice the way svs's subs have done and hopefully the ultra will put them back on top. :cool:

Those ultra woofers sound like beasts and that me to thinking will the new PBULTRA/2 nullify the need for a new PBPlus/4 sub sense it sounds like the ultra should be close in out put and be easyer to place in somones room?


Oh and I want my 7.2 large tower speaker and Ultra/2 X2 system. :D

...edit...

There is a link near the beginning of the thread that says the prices for the new model will be higher, yet says 2 can be had for 2.5 (thousand). This implies about $1250 each.

Am I missing something? Aren't the current models significantly higher? :confused:

John, that was me talking about the approximate price of a pair of current Ultras -- quote: "...those that run stereo (or more) subs are looking for quality sound in less expensive per unit enclosures. A 113 at $3k might possibly represent a performance value; but to get the acoustic benefits of stereo subs would require a minimum investment of $6k as opposed to around $2.5k for a pair of Ultras."

Regardless - the new Dual driver Ultra should be a VERY worthy competitor to the Fathom 113, the VTF-3 HO, Mark Seaton's SUBmersive and the new BMF from AV123.



So you think that the single driver model can't keep up with the other models that you mention?

I'm not surprised given that Hsu's own comparisions between the H.O and the Plus/2 are more sober then yours are :)

Remember what I used to say that you were trying to remove hard data from this forum and move it back into the dark ages? Well congratulations! From what I can tell you have succeeded, and a great example of what happens then is the guy who bought a HO to replace his Plus/2 thinking that it would deliver more SPL. For a while you even had me thinking that it was so, the only question in the back of my mind was "How?" : )

Keep on hyping!

John, that was me talking about the approximate price of a pair of current Ultras -- quote: "...those that run stereo (or more) subs are looking for quality sound in less expensive per unit enclosures. A 113 at $3k might possibly represent a performance value; but to get the acoustic benefits of stereo subs would require a minimum investment of $6k as opposed to around $2.5k for a pair of Ultras."
Thanks for the clarification.

Are there any rumors about the price of the new model?

So you think that the single driver model can't keep up with the other models that you mention?

I'm not surprised given that Hsu's own comparisions between the H.O and the Plus/2 are more sober then yours are :)

Remember what I used to say that you were trying to remove hard data from this forum and move it back into the dark ages? Well congratulations! From what I can tell you have succeeded, and a great example of what happens then is the guy who bought a HO to replace his Plus/2 thinking that it would deliver more SPL. For a while you even had me thinking that it was so, the only question in the back of my mind was "How?" : )

Keep on hyping!

Here we have a classic case of the behavior of someone who is so blinded by his own bias, that even simple truths evade him.

I was trying to remove hard data ? Right. That is why I posted these graphs of the VTF-3 HO and the PB12-Plus/2 playing the identical scene.

Here is the Plus/2 on the WOTW Lightning scene :

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/svslgt20hz.jpg

Here is the VTF-3 HO on the same scene :

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/hsulgttrbo.jpg

Check out the difference in the bass below 20 Hz.

Next ... let us look at Ilkka's graphs of the PB12-Plus/2 and the smaller (and according to Hsu, much less powerful than the VTF-3 HO) VTF-3 Mark II.

The PB12-Plus/2:

http://personal.inet.fi/private/ilkka/shootout3/svs%20pb12-plus2%2020hz%20plus12.3%20max.png

The VTF-3 Mark II

http://personal.inet.fi/private/ilkka/shootout3/hsu%20vtf3%20mk2%2020hz%20max.png

The VTF-3 Mark II in this configuration uses a driver with less throw than the HO, a smaller cabinet, lower powered amp, and a single 3 inch port vs. dual 4 inch ports in the HO. According to Hsu, the HO will deliver at least 6 dB higher SPL @ 20 Hz than will the VTF-3 Mark II.

The VTF-3 Mark II was only 3 dB lower in SPL @ 20 Hz than the Plus/2.

You want hard numbers ? These are hard numbers. As hard is this may be for you to accept, but even in sheer output levels, the HO matches up well to the Plus/2 ...and it sounded better under level matched, blind conditions. SPL is only part of the equation, when it comes to subwoofer performance.

I have stated for years that subwoofer tests need valid (meaning blind) listening tests combined with objective data. Why that is so hard for you to understand is a mystery.

It is quite clear that the new dual driver Ultra is going to be the new SVS flagship.

I suggested that we add this Flagship as a competitor to the other flagship designs being tested. Why does my suggesting this anger you ?

I never said that the single driver Ultra would not be competitive. I merely wanted to get the best SVS has to offer. Is it your position that the single driver Ultra will be a superior product ?

PLEASE, feel free to order as many subwoofers as you wish, run whatever tests you wish, and post the results.

You will find that, should you ever make this effort, I would treat you with some respect for having done so.

So you think that the single driver model can't keep up with the other models that you mention?

I'm not surprised given that Hsu's own comparisions between the H.O and the Plus/2 are more sober then yours are :)

Remember what I used to say that you were trying to remove hard data from this forum and move it back into the dark ages? Well congratulations! From what I can tell you have succeeded, and a great example of what happens then is the guy who bought a HO to replace his Plus/2 thinking that it would deliver more SPL. For a while you even had me thinking that it was so, the only question in the back of my mind was "How?" : )

Keep on hyping!
Do you mean this guy (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=772916)? As I wouldn't take Craig's scores as the final judgement, I wouldn't make any definitive assumptions based on the findings by that guy either. He clearly had some setup and/or room issues with his subs. I would like to see some more measurements and listening tests before judging which sub "plays louder".

Posts like yours just raise bad blood and cause locked threads. :(

Now I can't let that go by :)

What IS the biggest story? Are the improvements you delineate going to apply to ALL SVS subs -- via new electronics? enclosures? Outboard 'processor'?

Thanks for the music part. Reproducing live music is worth the effort, IMO.

This commitment started with the SB12-Plus, will be present in all new products, and will eventually migrate to all existing models at every price point.

It's not rocket science and it doesn't necessarily involve complex electronics (although that is indeed part of SVS' future too). In its most basic element, it's recognition that the listening room itself plays an integral part in the total performance solution.

Reshaping the frequency response of a subwoofer for increased upper bass linearity and headroom, improved transient response, and to complement the typical acoustic transfer function of most listening rooms isn't difficult - it simply requires a fundamental shift in thinking about how a subwoofer integrates with its intended environment.

We're putting to good use things we've learning from our own R&D, and past test data generated by myself, Ilkka, and AVTalk from the private sector. There is always room for improvement in any product line and we're taking every advantage of those opportunities moving forward.

Reshaping the frequency response of a subwoofer for increased upper bass linearity and headroom, improved transient response, and to complement the typical acoustic transfer function of most listening rooms isn't difficult - it simply requires a fundamental shift in thinking about how a subwoofer integrates with its intended environment.
Cough :D

It's not rocket science and it doesn't necessarily involve complex electronics (although that is indeed part of SVS' future too). In its most basic element, it's recognition that the listening room itself plays an integral part in the total performance solution.

Reshaping the frequency response of a subwoofer for increased upper bass linearity and headroom, improved transient response, and to complement the typical acoustic transfer function of most listening rooms isn't difficult - it simply requires a fundamental shift in thinking about how a subwoofer integrates with its intended environment.

as my neighbor's kid would say, Mutha Fuken http://smiliesftw.com/x/wigglewerd.gif

outstanding Ed...as always. ;)

ps- Tell Ron that we are still on for lunch this week at CES. Wish you would be there too, but I know you got to cover homefront.

And Ed - Thanks for the hat AND T-Shirt in our PB12-NSD ... :)

Hey Ed,

I am a SVS customer and I make hats and T-Shirts... :)
PM me sometime.

Okay, CES is HERE TODAY and some of us are not lucky enough to be there.. :(

So for those of you who are there REPORT! to your fellow AVS'rs with lots of Pics and Info! :p :cool:

Just checked SVS's website but no info on the Ultra as of this posting.

I'm checking on a regular basis as well!

I cannot wait to see some pictures and get some information!

Server overload!

Cant wait to see either.

Perhaps they all soiled themselves once the new Ultra hit the brown note :D

Argh... :mad: :(

Day 1 of CES is almost over and still no Info/Pics...

Someone has to have a Camera + Laptop + Wifi.. : :rolleyes:

Come on people...I want to see the new SVS Ultra sub and driver! Have mercy :mad:

Tonight is one of SVSs 'after parties' -- it may be tomorrow before anyone posts :)

This commitment started with the SB12-Plus, will be present in all new products, and will eventually migrate to all existing models at every price point.

It's not rocket science and it doesn't necessarily involve complex electronics (although that is indeed part of SVS' future too). In its most basic element, it's recognition that the listening room itself plays an integral part in the total performance solution.

Reshaping the frequency response of a subwoofer for increased upper bass linearity and headroom, improved transient response, and to complement the typical acoustic transfer function of most listening rooms isn't difficult - it simply requires a fundamental shift in thinking about how a subwoofer integrates with its intended environment.

We're putting to good use things we've learning from our own R&D, and past test data generated by myself, Ilkka, and AVTalk from the private sector. There is always room for improvement in any product line and we're taking every advantage of those opportunities moving forward.

All good points, Sir Edward, but...

For some of us, no fundamental shift in thinking is required. :cool:

Bosso

Do you mean this guy (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=772916)? As I wouldn't take Craig's scores as the final judgement, I wouldn't make any definitive assumptions based on the findings by that guy either. He clearly had some setup and/or room issues with his subs. I would like to see some more measurements and listening tests before judging which sub "plays louder".

Posts like yours just raise bad blood and cause locked threads. :(ho

It wasn't so much his comments and measurements, but when he asked Hsu why the Plus/2 went louder they answered that it should do just that.

For me Craig has always been very easy to see through, he will show you the facts that support his case, and hide the ones that does not.

For example in the post in this thread he emphasizes that the HO can go louder beneath 20hz, and he has mentioned this so often that people, like that guy who found that his old Plus/2 could go louder then his new H.O thought that there was something wrong with his H.O until Hsu themselves told him that this is how it is supposed to be.

Craig did the same thing a year ago when comparing the Ultra and the EP500. The Ultra could go considerably louder beneath 25hz, this was not something that Craig gave a lot of attention.

But as you can tell now, when it is the non-SVS sub that has the advantage in the deepest bass, THEN it is a considerable advantage.


And then he tops it of with the comment that it probably will take the dual version of the new Ultra to match the H.O : )

This is a sub of wich very little is known, but Craig is already convinced that the single driver model, being a 13.5", will not even be able to keep up with the modest H.O. Who was it that mentioned bias?

Good work guys...I can't wait to see pics and specifications for the new Ultra...in the mean time I am just going to have to suffer with my 2 HSU VTF-3HOs + Turbos...keep me posted.

Happy New Year

ho

It wasn't so much his comments and measurements, but when he asked Hsu why the Plus/2 went louder they answered that it should do just that.

For me Craig has always been very easy to see through, he will show you the facts that support his case, and hide the ones that does not.

For example in the post in this thread he emphasizes that the HO can go louder beneath 20hz, and he has mentioned this so often that people, like that guy who found that his old Plus/2 could go louder then his new H.O thought that there was something wrong with his H.O until Hsu themselves told him that this is how it is supposed to be.

Craig did the same thing a year ago when comparing the Ultra and the EP500. The Ultra could go considerably louder beneath 25hz, this was not something that Craig gave a lot of attention.

But as you can tell now, when it is the non-SVS sub that has the advantage in the deepest bass, THEN it is a considerable advantage.


And then he tops it of with the comment that it probably will take the dual version of the new Ultra to match the H.O : )

This is a sub of wich very little is known, but Craig is already convinced that the single driver model, being a 13.5", will not even be able to keep up with the modest H.O. Who was it that mentioned bias?Yeah, words are easy to say. I bet you don't see Craig posting data and graphs....oh wait....

Thomas, lay off Craig already. I don't recall him making some of those comments in reference to the new model (how could he, it's not even out yet). The HO with turbo should have an advantage at and below 20Hz vs the dual driver plus, because it was designed to move lots of air cleanly in the very deep bass. Above 25Hz, the dual driver would be louder, and Craig admitted that too. But there are other factors to consider too, such as frequency response linearity.

P.S. SVS teamed with Audyssey to create a new processor for eq'ing sub bass range. Pricing is supposed to be ~$700. I don't know about when it is supposed to be available.

For those relying on email notifications via this thread, go here for ssabripo's thread with some CES pictures.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=783524

Peter: As in the case with the Plus/2 owner buying a H.O, craig is not doing you any favours by his comparisions. Kudos to you, or whoever answered him honestly that the Plus/2 will be louder in most of the bass range.

It's not that I have anything against the H.O, to me it seems like a great product, and if I were in the market for a new sub today I probably would have bought one. I agree that there is so much more then just SPL when comparing subs, but when Craig always chooses to not emphasis any of the SVS subs strong points when comparing it to others I just can't take him seriously.


I would love if anyone could take the points I made in my last post and prove me wrong

Thomas, I suppose the important thing that others should take away is that Craig's opinions are his and his alone, and they really need to evaluate their own tastes and preferences to come up with the product that will best fit their needs. I feel that even among subwoofers there are various strengths and weaknesses in any design, and people need to try to get a decent sense of that before pulling the trigger. Thanks for the comments about the HO, we learned some painful lessons trying to introduce that sub, but at least things are a bit smoother now.

I would love if anyone could take the points I made in my last post and prove me wrong



It wasn't so much his comments and measurements, but when he asked Hsu why the Plus/2 went louder they answered that it should do just that.

For me Craig has always been very easy to see through, he will show you the facts that support his case, and hide the ones that does not.

For example in the post in this thread he emphasizes that the HO can go louder beneath 20hz, and he has mentioned this so often that people, like that guy who found that his old Plus/2 could go louder then his new H.O thought that there was something wrong with his H.O until Hsu themselves told him that this is how it is supposed to be.

The poster in question found that just by moving the HO to the floor, he managed to change the SPL delivered by 8 dB. Ilkka's test also has the VTF-3 Mark II, a subwoofer which is much less powerful than the HO, within 3-6 dB of the dual driver PB12-Plus/2 across the frequency band. I was quite clear in stating that the VTF-3 HO would be competitive with the PB12-Plus/2 in SPL, and that it managed to outpoint the Plus/2 in blind listening tests.

Craig did the same thing a year ago when comparing the Ultra and the EP500. The Ultra could go considerably louder beneath 25hz, this was not something that Craig gave a lot of attention.

You mean when I had three exclusively SVS owners, one who owned both SVS and Axiom, one who owned Rocket, and one who owned his own DIY subs do a blind listening test ?

For my own end, I placed the 2 subs in a virtual tie, both with stengths and weaknesses. The tie is shown in the subwoofer standings.

But as you can tell now, when it is the non-SVS sub that has the advantage in the deepest bass, THEN it is a considerable advantage.

No, the advantage was the VTF-3 HO was more visceral in reproducing the deepest bass scenes, than was the Plus/2. The Ultra is also better at reproducing the deepest bass scenes than is the Plus/2. This is a reason why the Ultra scored higher in the overall shootout.


And then he tops it of with the comment that it probably will take the dual version of the new Ultra to match the H.O : )

This is a sub of wich very little is known, but Craig is already convinced that the single driver model, being a 13.5", will not even be able to keep up with the modest H.O. Who was it that mentioned bias?

Actually - I said this: "Regardless - the new Dual driver Ultra should be a VERY worthy competitor to the Fathom 113, the VTF-3 HO, Mark Seaton's SUBmersive and the new BMF from AV123.

Looking forward to having it take on these four subs when the opportunity presents itself."

Mr. Miner, if you have any further questions or comments, please do the entire forum a favor, and PM me. Your conspiracy theories are getting rather tiresome, and the many people who, like myself, want to celibrate SVS's newest Ultra, have better things to read.

ManicMiner,

You should be more respectful of Craig, he knows alot more about this
stuff than you

Craig, me and most of us who have been here for a while know that debating you is rather pointless. Your answers to my points just goes to prove this once again.

-Even after he moved the H.O the Plus/2 was still louder, and as Peter Marcks says, so it should be

- I'm not questioning your methodology, but the way you choose the represent the results where any advantage an SVS sub may have will always be downplayed or ignored.

-That is exactly what you said, and why you think that it will take a dual Ultra to compete with the H.O is still beyond me. In my view I find it extremely more likely that even the single driver Ultra will be in a different league then the H.O, and considering the price difference, so it should be.

Now if you were any old yokel this would not bother me, but your bias affects peoples purchase descecions, like in the before mentioned case were someone read your posts and expected a H.O to improve upon the SPL that he was getting from his Plus/2.

If I were to make any conspiracy theories it would be about WHY you do this, but I'll stick to the facts.

ManicMinor

Craig Chase has so much more experience than you do. Do you have any idea how many subwoofers he has had in his home? He has had all kinds of SVS, Maestros, EP 600, EP500, HSU, other AV123, and more than I can begin to list...he has a Velodyne SMS-1, is buidling his own subs with his brother...has extensive measurement technology and graphing experience, has done outdoor testing, and has a very critical ear...

With all due respect...there is much more to subwoofing than you are taking into consideration...for instance, group delay...my Denon 5803A has adjustable group delay feature for the subwoofer output...

Show a little respect please...

Happy New Year

amen

Craig, me and most of us who have been here for a while know that debating you is rather pointless. Your answers to my points just goes to prove this once again.

-Even after he moved the H.O the Plus/2 was still louder, and as Peter Marcks says, so it should be

- I'm not questioning your methodology, but the way you choose the represent the results where any advantage an SVS sub may have will always be downplayed or ignored.

-That is exactly what you said, and why you think that it will take a dual Ultra to compete with the H.O is still beyond me. In my view I find it extremely more likely that even the single driver Ultra will be in a different league then the H.O, and considering the price difference, so it should be.

Now if you were any old yokel this would not bother me, but your bias affects peoples purchase descecions, like in the before mentioned case were someone read your posts and expected a H.O to improve upon the SPL that he was getting from his Plus/2.

If I were to make any conspiracy theories it would be about WHY you do this, but I'll stick to the facts.

At this point, you are beating a dead horse ad nauseum. I think many of us know that Craig's opinions are his own, but personally, I value his opinions because he has had experience with so many subwoofers. However, I do understand that his subjective opinions may differ from mine.

Sometimes, I wonder if you would give Craig the same scrutiny if he put SVS near the top of his list.

Manic, let them have their fun with their toys - it's about time you join us in the DIY area and build a REAL sub ;)

Hehe, thanks Steve but I have 10 thumbs, and if I try to handle a saw I will be left with only 9 within a matter of minutes : )

At this point, you are beating a dead horse ad nauseum. I think many of us know that Craig's opinions are his own, but personally, I value his opinions because he has had experience with so many subwoofers. However, I do understand that his subjective opinions may differ from mine.

Sometimes, I wonder if you would give Craig the same scrutiny if he put SVS near the top of his list.

You make several good points. The PB12-Ultra uses a driver and amp combo from 2002, yet it still is in the upper echelon of ported subwoofers for overall performance.

The Hsu VTF-3 HO comes close to the best, and more expensive, sealed designs.

What will the new Ultra do ? Ed Mullen has already stated that it will have better music performance - as they are working on enhancing linearity.

If the new Ultra ends up outperforming the JL Audio stuff (which also means outperforming the VTF-3 HO), that will be reported with enthusiasm.

I am looking forward to finding out first hand. Manic Miner will be welcome to come to our place for a blind test between any 2 subs that we have here, including the Ultra vs. the VTF-3 HO. :)

I think that SVS should concentrate on the upper bass linearity as well. My PB12+/2 was a hardest sub to integrate into my system. I did found that it had more output above the low pass xover from by receivers BM then at the Xo point. The sub extended output well into triple digits, and sounded very muddy no matter where I placed it. I had to assign another filter on my BFD[160hz] with half octave bandwith and 20db gain reduction to bring things into line. Anyway while a BFD is a great cheap[and must IMO with any sub] device, a new processor from Audyssey should be a welcome addition into my rig.

with all the SVS support around here I'm surprised they have yet to throw us a bone

Hopefully their website will be updated after CES with that mystery Ultra series brochure..

with all the SVS support around here I'm surprised they have yet to throw us a bone

I'm here at CES helping SVS out with their booth, and I can tell you any of them would love to have enough time to hit the forums with news. We're all working from the break of dawn until almost the break of dawn again. They have, however, finally posted a bit to their news page with links to all the materials we're handing out here.

http://www.svsound.com/news-news.cfm

Enjoy,

-Robb

Robb - Thanks for the link, and all the hard work you guys are doing. With a pair of the new Ultras AND the new AS-EQ1 coming in at around $3600 - $4000, this could be a state of the art system for a pretty reasonable rate - no more than a B4 was 3 years ago.

The AS-EQ1's ability to EQ dual subs over multiple listening positions is definitely a breakthrough for $750.

The next question: When does pre-order start ?

Quick question regarding the MultiEQ, how does it work when used in conjunction with a receiver that also uses MultiEQ? Is it a synergestic arrangement to have the receiver do the EQ for the 5/7 channels, with the AS-EQ1 dealing with the .1?

I gotta say I'm a little dissapointed that they failed to show any new finished speakers and
subs.

I want a new sub soon and was hoping I could save a few $$$ by not purchasing an F113 and maybe getting one
of the new Ultras instead

I gotta say I'm a little dissapointed that they failed to show any new finished speakers and
subs.

I want a new sub soon and was hoping I could save a few $$$ by not purchasing an F113 and maybe getting one
of the new Ultras instead

If you live near northwest Pa., you are welcome to borrow a sub from us while waiting. I know it is a long shot, but figured it cannot hurt to ask.

**** if you were giving that offer I would have taken an Ultra for couple weeks :)

lol

Craig your one hell of a generous guy! :)

Craig is such a pimp, thanks bro but I'm in Canada. My first real sub was purchased on
Craig's recommendations (ACI)

I want one :p

I gotta say I'm a little dissapointed that they failed to show any new finished speakers and
subs.

I want a new sub soon and was hoping I could save a few $$$ by not purchasing an F113 and maybe getting one
of the new Ultras instead


Im in the same boat anxiously waiting to see the New Ultras so that I could either buy one or an F113..

I however, have a little more patience, and can wait without a sub until the new Single and Dual Ultra cabinets are released.

Besides, With the substantial improvements that SVS will make with their new designs, its not like they are sitting around twidling their thumbs... Their goal is to raise the bar again and know that it takes lots of time (R&D) to do so.

If you live near northwest Pa., you are welcome to borrow a sub from us while waiting. I know it is a long shot, but figured it cannot hurt to ask.

Sounds like Craig is going to become the Blockbuster of subs, you should charge a small fee and you would have a nice business there.

If I was closer Craig I would take you up on your offer so I could test the HO and MBM. Oh well........ :D

I am torn....do I keep my current PB Ultra/2 or do I sell for one of the new ones....darned CES always giving me upgraditis.....


anyone interested in a gloss black PB Ultra/2 :)

Might want to see how the new processor improves your current sub first.

Does anyone know the price on these new Ultra's ?

I've must of overlooked it, but I don't can't find the price info.

Regards,
Jose

Does anyone know the price on these new Ultra's ?

I've must of overlooked it, but I don't can't find the price info.

Regards,
Jose

They have not finalized pricing as of yet.

I own multiple SVS and HSU products. I have always felt (and feel) Craig has been "on the mark" with his reviews. I plan to purchase the new SVS Ultra 13....and hope Craig reviews it befor my purchase. How can anyone go wrong with any of these products.....they all ROCK!!!!

I am torn....do I keep my current PB Ultra/2 or do I sell for one of the new ones....darned CES always giving me upgraditis.....


anyone interested in a gloss black PB Ultra/2 :)

DANG, was about to ask you some more info about it, but I live no where close to you ;).

Old SVS PCI Ultra uses 12" inch driver and new upcoming SVS Ultra will be use 13"driver !!! not 15" thata a shame........unless there is huge change in the board
otherwise its not worthy to buy new ultra over old.... :mad: :mad: :mad:

Imho, there appears to be a very significant step up in features & performance of the upcoming pb13-ultra over the current pb12-ultra.

Aside from the obvious size & beef of the new driver, other changes include:

| ---- Feature ------- | ----PB12-Ultra ------------ | ---- PB13-Ultra-------------------- |
| ---- orientation ---- | ---- down firing ------------ | ---- front firing --------------------- |
| ---- type ---------- | ---- vented ---------------- | ---- vented & sealed --------------- |
| ---- porting -------- | ---- triple 3" ---------------- | ---- triple 3.5" --------------------- |
| ---- power --------- | ---- 525w ----------------- | ---- 750w (950??)------------------- |
| ---- tuning -------- | ---- 20hz, 16hz & 12hz ------ | ---- 20hz, 15hz, 10hz & sealed ----- |
| ---- woofer -------- | ---- 12.3" ------------------ | ---- 13.5" --------------------------- |
| ---- cone ---------- | ---- Kevlar and aluminum ---- | ---- glass laminated foam ----------- |

Old SVS PCI Ultra uses 12" inch driver and new upcoming SVS Ultra will be use 13"driver !!! not 15" thata a shame........unless there is huge change in the board
I dunno? Considering what Tom has said in relation to output gain over their existing Ultra offerings, it seems like quite a substantial improvement to me? 4.5 to 6dB gain over it's predecessor and a 6 to 8dB gain for the /2 over the current PB12-Ultra/2 offering.

Although I have ran all the Ultra options at one time or another (including dual) and have since moved over to the DIY arena...the new PB13 "imo" seems to be shaping up quite nicely.

Old SVS PCI Ultra uses 12" inch driver and new upcoming SVS Ultra will be use 13"driver !!! not 15" thata a shame........unless there is huge change in the board
otherwise its not worthy to buy new ultra over old.... :mad: :mad: :mad:

Given that the JL Audia F113 has a 13" driver, and outclasses the performance of the Velo DD-18, there's more to subwoofering than inches alone. A couple of the new passive Ultra cylinders, a solid amp, and the new EQ box should give some impressive results indeed.

Given that the JL Audia F113 has a 13" driver, and outclasses the performance of the Velo DD-18, there's more to subwoofering than inches alone. A couple of the new passive Ultra cylinders, a solid amp, and the new EQ box should give some impressive results indeed.
No doubt! I'm thinking of some past 15" driver projects and how they roughly compared to the current offerings. With factoring the dB gain on the PB13, I would definitely need to tune up to the same tune to come in close to the same output with a high excursion 15", if it could be done.

Old SVS PCI Ultra uses 12" inch driver and new upcoming SVS Ultra will be use 13"driver !!! not 15" thata a shame........unless there is huge change in the board
otherwise its not worthy to buy new ultra over old.... :mad: :mad: :mad:

The area of the new Ultra is appx. 27% larger than the old driver, and it likely has a longer throw compared to the TV-12, based on the 4.5-6 dB difference in output across the frequency band of the subwoofer.

You might wait until someone actually tests the old Ultra against the new Ultra before you get :mad: :mad: :mad: .... :)

Old SVS PCI Ultra uses 12" inch driver and new upcoming SVS Ultra will be use 13"driver !!! not 15" thata a shame........unless there is huge change in the board
otherwise its not worthy to buy new ultra over old.... :mad: :mad: :mad:

this is Totally an insane response. The differeence in 1 inch is actually very very significant. The difference is in the neighborhood of a 25% increase inoverall surface area. Plus the new design is sure to be better than the old design in terms of how much air it can push through the larger ports. PLUS the larger amp with better configuration options in terms of the filter. A company wouldn't introduce a new woofer and design like this for nothing! :)

LOL>.......didn't see that craig already posted.....

Craig you "one-uped" me. I just gave a neighborhood of 25%........you give the actual 27%figure......LOL

LOL>.......didn't see that craig already posted.....

Craig you "one-uped" me. I just gave a neighborhood of 25%........you give the actual 27%figure......LOL

I just happened to have a calculator handy ... :D

It is also a mystery (to me) why people get so wound up about subwoofers. This stuff is supposed to be FUN.

Speaking of that ... Our basement theater looks like a subwoofer disaster. We currently have 12 subwoofers hanging out there - I think we just lowered the cubic footage of the room ... :p

My wife is on notice that pics will be required soon ...

Craig I cannot wait to hear what you have to say after the weekend of testing. :)


you are 100% right.....hsu, svs, whatever.......this is supposted to be about BASS and FUN!

My quote is "Subwoofers....I love this game"

You might wait until someone actually tests the old Ultra against the new Ultra before you get
mmm, Geez,.. I wonder who might be willing to do that?:p

I am torn....do I keep my current PB Ultra/2 or do I sell for one of the new ones....darned CES always giving me upgraditis.....


anyone interested in a gloss black PB Ultra/2 :)


These guys are "upgrading" drivers faster than Microsoft updates windows.

As others have suggested, I'd hold off a bit until at least some returns are in. On the other hand, ready - fire - aim seems to be fairly typical around these parts. ;)

As others have suggested, I'd hold off a bit until at least some returns are in. On the other hand, ready - fire - aim seems to be fairly typical around these parts. ;)
Yeah.. I don't see what the problem is around here? Why do so many upgrade so often? ;)

Anyone know when the new PB13-Ultra will be available for purchase?

Anyone know when the new PB13-Ultra will be available for purchase?

You just grabbed a 12 and already are looking at upgrading to the 13? That is too funny. Wish I had the budget to even be able to consider such a thing.

Anyone know when the new PB13-Ultra will be available for purchase?

Pre-sale is set for March/April, but you never know, could be further out.

These guys are "upgrading" drivers faster than Microsoft updates windows.

Could be a sign of a crowded and saturated market. There are a lot more worthy contenders in the mix these days.

My opinion is that there's not so much innovation as there is simply upgrades to subs from the big players toward what a subwoofer should provide in the first place.

For example, when Ed said: " Expect flatter FRs, improved upper bass headroom/linearity, and roll-off profiles that both improve transient response and are better matched to the acoustic transfer function of the typical customer's room."...

...he basically means that all of the prior models from SVS had less than flat response, less than desired upper bass headroom/linearity and no selectable roll off profiles that better match different room's transfer functions.

This is due entirely to the use of low end, high Le overhung and underhung motor drivers in ported subwoofers designs.

Hsu's answer is the mid bass module, SVS's answer is to finally begin to use a lower Le driver and offer selectable system 'Q' which eliminates the early upper end roll off and offers different low end roll off profiles.

More output and smoother in room response is better achieved by using multiples of subwoofer model, but the flatter and further reaching upper end as well as different 'Q' and order of roll off profiles is simply what should have been available in the first place.

It's a bit odd that Ed can mention these improvements without anyone assuming that by mentioning them he implies that the previous subs all were lacking in these areas, without any backlash.

When I've mentioned these shortcomings in the past, I was referred to as a troll, a TV hater and anti-anything SVS. :rolleyes:

It's good to see Hsu and SVS finally addressing these points, but I certainly wouldn't go as far as to say that the market for flat in-room, VLF, high SQ, highly user-adaptable, high WAF subs is anywhere near over saturated.

Bosso

Excellent points Bosso. You're right, the SVS/HSU crowd deosnt like the truth, unless it benefits them. I have been called out as a "hater" for similar reasons.

Pre-sale is set for March/April, but you never know, could be further out.
where did u get that info,kweezy? :confused:

Excellent points Bosso. You're right, the SVS/HSU crowd deosnt like the truth, unless it benefits them. I have been called out as a "hater" for similar reasons.

I don't think anyone who does not agree or dissents should be called anything other than a dissenter or disagreeable, but:

Uuummm. Of course the old version was not as good. Correct me if I'm wrong, isn't every industry/company doing the same. When was the last time GM said, last year's model was junk or don't buy this one becasue a better version will be out next year.
I buy a new motorcyle every year, and every year it is better throttle response, better mass centralization, .25 ounces shaved off here and there, more corner speed, less rotating mass, better midrange torque....

Why would subwoofers or any company producing them be any different?
Last year's or the last version was the best they could do given the required constraints. You can bet the upcoming Ultra-13 will be improved upon for the next version Ultra-XX...

Some people are more sensitive to having the products they buy and decisions they make criticized in any way, even if it is constructive, factual, and purposeful.

Just an observation.

jpmst3, you're not wrong. you're exactly right, but I think you are missing the point. Companies always push for a better product, I didnt (and would never) say otherwise and always look forward to new and improved designs. I was referring to how defensive (and down-right insulting) a certain group people get when areas of performance I think need addressed are mentioned in these forums. I have nothing against the companies or their products, I have owned serveral from both.

where did u get that info,kweezy? :confused:

On HomeTheaterSpot, Tom said he wanted to wait to start preorders for the single driver cabinets until actual shipping dates were confirmed, and estimated late March/April for preorders.

More output and smoother in room response is better achieved by using multiples of subwoofer model, but the flatter and further reaching upper end as well as different 'Q' and order of roll off profiles is simply what should have been available in the first place.
Further reaching upper end wasn't an issue with the + series for sure, I can't comment on the Ultra however. I agree with the JPMST3 that every manufacturer try to release a better product without saying that the predecessor was a junk or less then stellar. There is always room for improvement, as there isn't a "perfect" subwoofer out there yet.

jpmst3, you're not wrong. you're exactly right, but I think you are missing the point. Companies always push for a better product, I didnt (and would never) say otherwise and always look forward to new and improved designs. I was referring to how defensive (and down-right insulting) a certain group people get when areas of performance I think need addressed are mentioned in these forums. I have nothing against the companies or their products, I have owned serveral from both.

Agreed, I know where you are coming from. I am on the same page. Hence, the last statement in my previous post.

Some people handle it better than others. With the nature of this mostly anonymous means of comment/debate some resort to name calling when they hear something they don't like. We need dissent and criticism or the very products we are all discussing will never get better!

This is due entirely to the use of low end, high Le overhung and underhung motor drivers in ported subwoofers designs.

Hsu's answer is the mid bass module, SVS's answer is to finally begin to use a lower Le driver and offer selectable system 'Q' which eliminates the early upper end roll off and offers different low end roll off profiles.

Good points Dave. Yes the inductance of the current models undoubtedly result in very high temperatures on the voice coils which together with the large motors were contributing to unlinearities, more artifacts, less than ideal FR and the characteristic SVS mid-bass hump. I wouldn't say "entirely" though because those low power plate digital switching amps also lowered performance and also added to the problems you mentioned above.

On the other hand its good to see them raise the quality of the components with what looks like lower voice coil inductance in the driver and more powerful amp, though its still a plate amp. I was hoping they would start to use more capable amplifiers like those found in the subs of many of their competitors.

The porting doesn't look like anything new and I doubt a couple of hertz tuning difference will be audible. By the way plugging all the ports will not automatically make it a sealed sub no more than plugging my PC-Ultra will all of a sudden make it "sealed". These guys are good marketers no doubt about it. ;)


It's a bit odd that Ed can mention these improvements without anyone assuming that by mentioning them he implies that the previous subs all were lacking in these areas, without any backlash.

I don't know about this comment Dave. :) You can say the same thing about every company that comes out with new product offerings. Most of them are quality improvements based on design changes, technology advances or better pricing of higher quality parts. It does look like they are improving quality within their price constraints.

When I've mentioned these shortcomings in the past, I was referred to as a troll, a TV hater and anti-anything SVS. :rolleyes: I'm shocked...shocked that you could suggest such a thing. :D Don't worry you are in good company. Some people can accept constructive objective criticism better than others. Many people here appreciate your insights and comments. Keep 'em coming.


It's good to see Hsu and SVS finally addressing these points, but I certainly wouldn't go as far as to say that the market for flat in-room, VLF, high SQ, highly user-adaptable, high WAF subs is anywhere near over saturated.

Last I checked there is still no such thing as the perfect sub though I must say the new JL subs are as close to that ideal as I've heard. In any event its good to see SVS has finally upgraded their product line and I'm looking forward to hearing how they sound and how the new specs compare. I'm sure we can look forward to a raft of new offerings this year. :cool:

My opinion is that there's not so much innovation as there is simply upgrades to subs from the big players toward what a subwoofer should provide in the first place.

For example, when Ed said: " Expect flatter FRs, improved upper bass headroom/linearity, and roll-off profiles that both improve transient response and are better matched to the acoustic transfer function of the typical customer's room."...

...he basically means that all of the prior models from SVS had less than flat response, less than desired upper bass headroom/linearity and no selectable roll off profiles that better match different room's transfer functions.

This is due entirely to the use of low end, high Le overhung and underhung motor drivers in ported subwoofers designs.

It's a bit odd that Ed can mention these improvements without anyone assuming that by mentioning them he implies that the previous subs all were lacking in these areas, without any backlash.

Bosso

If an OEM can't look at its own products with a critical eye and recognize areas for improvement, it might as well throw in the towel. :)

Reminds me of the time Road & Track confidently proclaimed the 350 cubic inch pushrod V-8 in the '84 'Vette had reached its clean output limits at 205 HP. 15 years later that same basic engine was making 350 HP. :cool:

If we've collectively learned anything as a forum community over the last 5 years, it's that the room is an integral part of the performance equation. While the great outdoors remains an ideal environment to measure subwoofers, a flat anechoic response to 17-18 Hz doesn't always result in good things when the subwoofer is placed into a typical customer's listening room.

I wouldn't lay the blame entirely on the Le value of the woofer; things like the resonance frequency and Qts of the driver, the box tuning frequency and interior volume, any EQ curves employed, and the use of high pass filters all obviously factor into the final FR profile.

Regardless, a low-bass bump in the quasi-anechoic curve, combined with the acoustic transfer function of a typical listening room (which usually results in a rising low-end response anyway), can negatively impact mid/upper bass linearity and the overall sonic presentation of the subwoofer.

The goal (obviously) is to obtain a flat in-room response with a benign roll-off profile that makes the best use of room gain while still being protective of the woofer below Fb. Selective roll-off profiles give the customer some flexibility to accomodate for various room sizes and transfer functions.

Well, I didn't place the blame solely on the Le of the driver. I said that high inductance is the cause of the premature roll off from 50Hz up.

I also mentioned ported subwoofer designs as the problem with controlling the F6 BW and ultimate roll off profile.

As it would apear to have been a 'collective' learning experience, I remember it quite differently. Here is an example of the replies I typically got for discussing the thought we all seem to agree with today (this one from TV):

I suggest you research the topic a little more. The typical home theater environment isn't going to grossly distort the FR of a subwoofer designed to be flat anechoically into the 16-20hz range. On average, you'll see a db or two at 25hz and another dB or two at 20hz... So, in fact...the subwoofer that is designed to maintain a flat FR anechoically...will have a MUCH more accurate FR curve at common listening levels.

Quoting Ed from his post above, we see an opposing view to TV's:

If we've collectively learned anything as a forum community over the last 5 years, it's that the room is an integral part of the performance equation. While the great outdoors remains an ideal environment to measure subwoofers, a flat anechoic response to 17-18 Hz doesn't always result in good things when the subwoofer is placed into a typical customer's listening room.

The following is a spot on statement, just not usually very evident in these public forums:

If an OEM can't look at its own products with a critical eye and recognize areas for improvement, it might as well throw in the towel.

I'm glad to see that all of the discussions have apparently led to better products for the end user, but I certainly don't recall it as being very collective.

Hey John, great to see ya. I have something for ya...check your PM ;)

Bosso

Anyway I read those quotes I see progress, and confirmation that BS does not always baffle brains. :D Judging by the many discussions over the last couple of years it looks like the momentum has shifted such that most people regard the room as the more important influence affecting realistic bass reproduction. Good to see Ed bringing abundant common sense to this company.

For example, when Ed said: " Expect flatter FRs, improved upper bass headroom/linearity, and roll-off profiles that both improve transient response and are better matched to the acoustic transfer function of the typical customer's room."...

...he basically means that all of the prior models from SVS had less than flat response, less than desired upper bass headroom/linearity and no selectable roll off profiles that better match different room's transfer functions.

I really should know better than to address any of this, but I never claimed to be a genius.

"Expect flatter FRs" does not mean "all of the prior models from SVS had less than flat response", but rather that their response wasn't as flat as their new subwoofers. I can only hope that's true of all subwoofer manufacturers. Perhaps it's the definition of flat that we're missing here? If a 0.0 dB variance from 1 to 200 Hz is what it takes to be flat, then, to my knowledge, all subwoofers have "less than flat response" (including SVS' newest models).

"…improved upper bass headroom/linearity" does not mean "all of the prior models from SVS had… less than desired upper bass headroom/linearity", but rather that upper bass headroom/linearity is better than it was (for all we know the previous models exceeded the design goals at the time).

The SB12-Plus already has selectable roll off profiles. Perhaps Ed means it is a feature we will see added to more of their products.

I'm a fairly analytical guy – my glass of water isn't half empty or half full – it's holding 50% of its potential. I can appreciate, though, any of those views depending on one's life circumstances. I don't know what kind of person, however, could see adding more water to the glass as an indication that the previous contents were poison…

-Robb

Of course Robb has added some excellent perspective. The existing line-up is very good - and we're going to make it even better. That should be the goal of any OEM with an eye toward continuous improvement.

In big rooms with open floor plans and lossy boundaries, room gain is virtually non-existent - and a flat anechoic response to 17-18 Hz is a good thing. We've got plenty of customers with rooms that fit this basic description.

Place that same subwoofer in a 10x14 enclosed and tightly built room (and we see lots of these style rooms too) and it's going to exhibit a rising response below ~35 Hz. A selectable roll-off profile will help counter this phenomenon and will result in a more accurate and better-sounding in-room FR.

Not only does the SB12-Plus have one of the flattest mid/upper bass FRs of any sub in our line-up, it's also the first to incorporate the selectable roll-off profile. This feature will be included on the new Ultra line, and will eventually (not overnight) migrate to other subs in the line-up. It's simply another tool for helping the customer to achieve the goal of a flatter in-room response.

Dave, over the years we've earned each other's respect by keeping an open mind, learning from a lot of talented minds on these forums, and even working together on some interesting projects. We haven't always agreed on every point, but we eventually came to recognize the value in the other's opinion (and in the opinion of others) and that has broadened everyone's perspective.

The sub forum veterans have unquestionably matured and grown over the last 5-6 years and each has something interesting to contribute and a unique perspective. A new breed of subwoofer testers has also materialized - working together and pushing the envelope - and have since generated a wealth of valuable data. We've even expanded the scope of testing to include the time domain, looking harder at impulse response, phase response, group delay, and spectral decay - and how these results can make an audible impact on sound quality.

That's what I meant by a collective learning experience. And it's these experiences - combined with competition that never sits still - that prevents product stagnation and improves the breed - and the consumer ultimately benefits.

Of course Robb has added some excellent perspective. The existing line-up is very good - and we're going to make it even better. That should be the goal of any OEM with an eye toward continuous improvement.

I understand the position you have to take, and I'm sure it's sincere, only because it's coming from you. My opinion is that the current products are not so good and you're attempting to make them good. Time and Ilkka will tell.

In big rooms with open floor plans and lossy boundaries, room gain is virtually non-existent - and a flat anechoic response to 17-18 Hz is a good thing. We've got plenty of customers with rooms that fit this basic description.

I'm not sure how you came to this conclusion, but at least it's a much better analysis of reality than the previous position offered by SVS.

Place that same subwoofer in a 10x14 enclosed and tightly built room (and we see lots of these style rooms too) and it's going to exhibit a rising response below ~35 Hz. A selectable roll-off profile will help counter this phenomenon and will result in a more accurate and better-sounding in-room FR.

Not only does the SB12-Plus have one of the flattest mid/upper bass FRs of any sub in our line-up, it's also the first to incorporate the selectable roll-off profile. This feature will be included on the new Ultra line, and will eventually (not overnight) migrate to other subs in the line-up. It's simply another tool for helping the customer to achieve the goal of a flatter in-room response.

I consider the sealed sub to be part of the 'new SVS philosophy'. I said ported subwoofers, as I always have.

Dave, over the years we've earned each other's respect by keeping an open mind, learning from a lot of talented minds on these forums, and even working together on some interesting projects. We haven't always agreed on every point, but we eventually came to recognize the value in the other's opinion (and in the opinion of others) and that has broadened everyone's perspective.

The sub forum veterans have unquestionably matured and grown over the last 5-6 years and each has something interesting to contribute and a unique perspective. A new breed of subwoofer testers has also materialized - working together and pushing the envelope - and have since generated a wealth of valuable data. We've even expanded the scope of testing to include the time domain, looking harder at impulse response, phase response, group delay, and spectral decay - and how these results can make an audible impact on sound quality.

That's what I meant by a collective learning experience. And it's these experiences - combined with competition that never sits still - that prevents product stagnation and improves the breed - and the consumer ultimately benefits.

Yes, Ed, this is all mostly true, and, you have indeed earned my respect, and once for all time is how it is with me regarding that subject.

But, I don't include your new full time bosses in this process. They have consistently had the least opened minds when it came to all of the subjects you mention in your very eloquent post...to the point of absurdity.

That is my singular point.

Robb...I'm not interested in talking about glasses and/or liquids that partially fill them. Nice try with the double talk, though :)

Bosso

I hear where you are coming from Dave but I think we should reserve judgement on the company's "new" philosophy until we hear and test the new products. There could be some surprises in store either way, spilled glasses be damned.

I'm liking the new look of SVS as personified by Ed. True he has a full-time job to do but I doubt we will see the overreaction to objective comments that marred the company and seemed characteristic of one principal. I say its time to turn the page and see what the new product line and new management bring to the party.

My opinion is that there's not so much innovation as there is simply upgrades to subs from the big players toward what a subwoofer should provide in the first place.

For example, when Ed said: " Expect flatter FRs, improved upper bass headroom/linearity, and roll-off profiles that both improve transient response and are better matched to the acoustic transfer function of the typical customer's room."...

...he basically means that all of the prior models from SVS had less than flat response, less than desired upper bass headroom/linearity and no selectable roll off profiles that better match different room's transfer functions.


I hear what you're saying, (not that I'm even remotely equipped to argue the technical side of things and I won't even try!), but isn't SVS just trying to offer their consumer, at a certain price point, the best possible sub and just trying to impove upon that with each release while staying within a certain price range? I see the new subs as becoming even "better" at doing what they are "supposed to do" without the price of say a Fathom F113 or Velo DD series. Now, maybe they won't do everything as well as the Fathom and DD series does (including the fact that these subs do it in a much smaller enclosure), but that would likely result in much higher prices to the consumer.

I.e., SVS is just saying they've basically managed to improve upon an already excellent line-up (which many argue belies its price range) for the 2007 lineup while still keeping prices reasonable for the consumer who isn't going to spend $3,000 - $5,000 on a single sub.

I just wish they'd release the darn thing sooner as I can't wait much longer!!

Yes, Ed, this is all mostly true, and, you have indeed earned my respect, and once for all time is how it is with me regarding that subject.

But, I don't include your new full time bosses in this process. They have consistently had the least opened minds when it came to all of the subjects you mention in your very eloquent post...to the point of absurdity.

That is my singular point. Bosso

This well stated point is exactly why no SVS sub will ever cross the threshold of my home. I understand being an Evangelist for your company and products, but you do not see other manufacturers behaving this way publicly. They may all be alike behind closed doors but these guys, with their false bravado and hyperbole come off like snake oil peddlers. I think Ed does bring some much needed credibility to this company but as long as the principles remain, I will hold fast to my position.

Troll out!


PS My quoting Bosso in no way implies that he agrees with my sentiments. I am also aware that no one gives a rats a$$ about my opinions. :p

^^^
Love these type of guys! They don't own any product from them but they will continuously offer their unwanted pennies of thoughts about the company's founders. Just what these forums are for. Remarkable. :rolleyes:

^^^
Love these type of guys! They don't own any product from them but they will continuously offer their unwanted pennies of thoughts about the company's founders. Just what these forums are for. Remarkable. :rolleyes:


Love you too hun :p

..my glass of water...it's holding 50% of its potential.

Uh.. isn't that the same thing as half full? :p

I've got two questions:

Suppose I design a high Le driver -- lots of coils cutting lots of flux lines -- a good strong motor for deep bass -- can't I easily EQ to compensate for a gradual >50Hz rolloff? Isn't it easier to EQ up >50Hz from a high Le motor that try to EQ up <20Hz from a low Le motor?

How far up do you think a sub should respond?
The LFE channel is supposedly brickwalled at 120Hz, but I still believe in the old "one octave above or below" rule -- I like a sub to have response to 200Hz.
OTOH some subs (Axiom and Rythmik come to mind) cut off pretty quickly past 100Hz.

Good debate going on here,SVS has very competiitive products as it stands now.Only normal evolution to see them refresh the Ultra lineup and offer better performance.

Competition is very agressive now,no longer is it true to say the Ultra sub beats subs costing 2-3 times more.In fact at $2300 plus shipping the dual driver SVS faces very real competition from dual HSU VTF3HO/Turbo subs(these cost a bit less) and from JL Audio's f113.Not even naming Mark Seaton's designs,getting very positive comments from experienced users.

Even companies known for lesser subs(I shall not name)are comming with subs so much improved they may become more serious competitors.

Bosso, I have to agree with you, but this design practice has in no way been limited to SVS. Nearly all "traditional" ported home theater subs are designed to be anechoically flat to some "low" frequency, 30hz, 25hz, 20hz, or somewhere inbetween. An EBS type of ported design meshes better with typical rooms, and the LLT ported design does it even better. Did it take SVS a while to catch on to what DIYers were doing to achieve better results? Yeah. But I bet it will take other ported home theater sub manufacturers even longer ;) If you can't provide enough headroom to extend solidly below 20hz, then not much reason to worry about room gain in the first place.

As for the drop off in the high end due to high Le drivers, I dunno why that took so long to address. They had some driver revisions over the years, you'd figure it might have come up.

It does look like it is going to be a very good year, but even more confusing, for upgraders and first-time sub buyers. SVS raised the bar a little, then HSU threw down the gauntlet with the Mk3s and the looong time coming HO. To stay competitive in this market segment, I think SVS is going to have to ratchet up the performance, features, and SQ of the Plus series. Then AV123 is going to get their beast into production and shake up the <$1500 market again. Then Seaton will ramp up production and have better finishes to compete with Velo and JL. That should force Velo to introduce some new products. Looks like TC is going to be late for the party, but if the LMS line performs as advertised, their subs will be monsters and the raw drivers will give the DIY crowd something new to play with.

Yep, it is going to be a fun 2007. Hopefully, they will all come out winners and keep the competition going. It looks like it will be a very dangerous year for someone to take a mis-step or to even stand pat.

Bosso, I have to agree with you, but this design practice has in no way been limited to SVS. Nearly all "traditional" ported home theater subs are designed to be anechoically flat to some "low" frequency, 30hz, 25hz, 20hz, or somewhere inbetween. An EBS type of ported design meshes better with typical rooms, and the LLT ported design does it even better. Did it take SVS a while to catch on to what DIYers were doing to achieve better results? Yeah. But I bet it will take other ported home theater sub manufacturers even longer ;) If you can't provide enough headroom to extend solidly below 20hz, then not much reason to worry about room gain in the first place.

As for the drop off in the high end due to high Le drivers, I dunno why that took so long to address. They had some driver revisions over the years, you'd figure it might have come up.

Of course, you're right, Steve, but I've said all along that user-control of the roll off of a ported sub is not practical, and neither is it's size.

My point, again, is that SVS will label you a heretic troll while they're busy in the back room developing exactly what you were discussing in the first place.

If you proclaim the new one is improved, you also admit at the same time that the old one was lacking. Just don't ever try to point out that shortcoming while the model is still 'new' ;)

I also wanted to address this silly notion that buying a 1,000 dollar subwoofer plus an outboard EQ is 1/3 the cost of buying, for example, a Velo Digital Drive 18" sealed servo sub.

How much does the bang for buck guy spend in the end with the endless 'new and improved' upgrades? Meanwhile, I don't see Velo changing drivers, amps, box size, raising prices, etc., after more than 3 years.

Bosso

My point, again, is that SVS will label you a heretic troll while they're busy in the back room developing exactly what you were discussing in the first place.

If you proclaim the new one is improved, you also admit at the same time that the old one was lacking. Just don't ever try to point out that shortcoming while the model is still 'new'
I follow. Again though, I wouldn't limit it to SVS. A while back I mentioned that I found it strange that AV123 offers crossover upgrades for some of their speakers, cause like you say, this would mean that they are admitting their first pass at a crossover is lacking. As one might guess, I got gang attacked by that group for even mentioning such sacrilege :)

Seems like the non internet direct companies get away with this kind of stuff much more easily, perhaps because they don't have a real online presence or the company heads don't converse on these forums. This whole thing could just be avoided though if everyone came to their senses and built their own subwoofer... :cool:

I follow. Again though, I wouldn't limit it to SVS. A while back I mentioned that I found it strange that AV123 offers crossover upgrades for some of their speakers, cause like you say, this would mean that they are admitting their first pass at a crossover is lacking. As one might guess, I got gang attacked by that group for even mentioning such sacrilege :)

Seems like the non internet direct companies get away with this kind of stuff much more easily, perhaps because they don't have a real online presence or the company heads don't converse on these forums. This whole thing could just be avoided though if everyone came to their senses and built their own subwoofer... :cool:

LOL!
If only we saved ourselves the trouble this way.

I am glad SVS is making what I think our good moves to improve their lineup. Their former line needed some work, b/c they were to borg-like in their testing methodology. Maybe now they will change their testing to better reflect the end goals, but factoring in the customer's room. This is where I believe HSU always had them despite their "cheap" subs. They recheapened them this year to the benefit of the customer and w/ little cost besides shutting down their dealers.

The SVS EQ looks interesting, but is quite expensive.

Let's hope they up the bar and are in a feirce fight with other companies wishing to do the same. In those cases the customer wins.

As one might guess, I got gang attacked by that group for even mentioning such sacrilege :)



Yes its the nature of communicating one views with people who are less openminded than they think and don't want anyone to second guess their design or purchase decisions as the case may be. We have all had the privilege of being attacked and having to defend positions. Goes with the territory.

I find it humourous seeing people acknowledge weaknesses that they didn't want to read in print months earlier. Its pretty well accepted now that the same SVS designs that gave good extension compromised the mid/high bass reproduction. Response and rolloff 40hz and up has a significant impact on sound quality. Its very difficult to optimize bass, ergo sound quality, in that critical region with a heavy cone and high Le driver. I understand the design compromises involved especially if the primary objective is extension and SPL down low. Extended listening or a side by side test usually show such compromised designs will not sound as good compared with subwoofers having better mid/upper bass control.
Its forward thinking on Hsu's part to address this deficiency head on with the MBM-12 which appears to be made for anyone with an SVS sub.

Seems like the non internet direct companies get away with this kind of stuff much more easily, perhaps because they don't have a real online presence or the company heads don't converse on these forums.

Non-internet companies will always come under less scrutiny. Companies that want to distribute their products through this channel will have to run through a guantlet of knowledgeable posters. That's a good thing. How they react to constructive objective criticism is just as, if not more, important than the products themselves since it directly affects a company's brand image. Some companies come out looking better than others.

As for the drop off in the high end due to high Le drivers, I dunno why that took so long to address. They had some driver revisions over the years, you'd figure it might have come up.
Maybe because their own measurements don't show any (1-2 dB tops) upper bass roll-off...?

http://www.svsound.com/pix/f_plus_curve.jpg

http://www.svsound.com/pix/f_plus2_curve.jpg

http://www.svsound.com/pix/pb12nsd_fr_comp1.JPG

This could be way off the mark, but all of this upper-bass roll off talk is interesting. Could it not also be due to the rise in the low-end due to room gain? Then the user perceives a deficiency in the high-end...

Wild I have a feeling that you are on to something with that statement.

Room gain plays a major part in LOW bass response. It can really boost it, while not really boosting the mid-upper bass as much, which in turn gives the listener the perception that the mid-high bass is lacking.

But the case really is the mid-high bass is great, its just that the room dynamics boost the low end to make it unproportional.

This is why many higher end systems incorporate some sort of bass management that allows them to flatten frequency reponse even more than the sub design itself can do.

Yeah, the only reason I even bring it up is that everyone knows SVS designs most of their subs (at least the standard ones) to have a flat FR in an anechoic chamber (or similar environment).

The FR on my PB-12 is flat.....I really only checked it up to 80hz though because that is where my system crossover is at.

I'm sure no matter what sub we are using the MBM would reign supreme and add some really PUNCH just because it is MADE for 50hz and up.

Looking at every FR graph from AVTalk, Ed and Ilkka, the SVS subs drop anywhere from 5-10dB from 40Hz to 100Hz, except for the PB10, which I recall Ed having measured to be pretty darned ruler flat through 100Hz.

If you look at the same guys' measurements of the Velo DD-18, P'Digm 15 and servo 15, Blue Sky U-15, they are all generally within 2dB of ruler flat to well above 100Hz.

Even the little BK Monolith ported sub only drops 1dB from 40Hz to 100Hz.

Room and boundary gain just exaggerate the problem that already exists.

And, yes, of course we all have read that those guys use inaccurate equipment that's probably miscalibrated and some of them probably only measured broken SVS subs, but that's probably a bit of a stretch. :)

Fact is, higher Le limits transient response options...period. The Tumult MKII, with an aluminum shorting ring and much lower Le, offers 8dB of headroom at 100Hz over the orignal Tumult in my exoerience since receiving a batch of them. Same box, same upstream hardware, same amp, same signal.

And no, I don't use a Behringer mic, or a sound card and my rig is calibrated and my original Tumults ain't broken.

Bosso

Could it not also be due to the rise in the low-end due to room gain? Then the user perceives a deficiency in the high-end
No, it's real. See here (http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/subwoofer-tests/).

I remember once in a forum when I stated SVS sacrificed the upper portion and lacked impact,some went up in arms and said it is because they are so flat! :rolleyes:

Refusing to even hear what I had to say. No sub is perfect and none will ever be perfect.The main focus should be constant improvement leading to products that offer a flat frequency response in the anechoic chamber and incorporate electronics to tame the peaks in a room the sub will be used.

It is always better to tame peaks than compensate for dips. The closest subs to being truly flat across the range they cover are so far Velodyne HGS/DD series.

No, it's real. See here (http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/subwoofer-tests/).

Wow...yeah, I forgot about tests like Ilkka's. There is definitely some serious high-end roll off.

Wouldn't high Le make the frequency response roll-off pretty linearly? But when you look at the response below, it's actually pretty flat from 100 Hz to 200 Hz, suggesting it's not the high Le.

Probably a combination of high tuning frequency, high Qts driver which would require much larger enclosure, some EQ etc.

http://personal.inet.fi/private/ilkka/shootout3/svs%20pb12-plus2%2025hz%20plus12.3%20fr.png

i flipped thru this thread.

Did you guys notice they updated the SVS news site with the cutsheets:
http://www.svsound.com/news-news.cfm

if you look at the PDF File below it has pictures of the new front firing PB13 with a grill in the front with specs.

at 125lbs for a single sub, its a BEAST!!!!

http://www.svsound.com/CES2007/SVS_PB_PCUltra13SubsSheet.pdf

JL F113: 19.50 in x 16.50 in. x 19.75 in. 130lbs


SVS PB13 Ultra: 22in x 20.5in. x 27in. 125lbs


The quality of construction that goes into these new woofers is astounding for sure!!

When is the PB13 Ultra/2 coming out? I'm very anxious for a new subwoofer (and this is the first sub I'll be buying from SVS and I am buying without hearing it first.. (no time to audition) How much will it cost? My top options right now are the F113, PB13 U/2, DTS-20 and the Submersive. All around the same price.. I'm 15 so this will be my first 'real' subwoofer (current is a DLS-5000R). I want it to atleast last me a few years.. My room is 10 ft long, 8 ft ceiling, 8 ft wide. Thanks guys.

Some nice sub options for a 15-year-old. When I was your age, I saved all summer for a Gibson Explorer. If you want to make it to 16, you might want something more modest in a 10x8x8 room. ;)

Some info on the new eq...cool.

http://www.audioholics.com/ces/CESprocessors/SVSoundASEQ1.php


i flipped thru this thread.

Did you guys notice they updated the SVS news site with the cutsheets:
http://www.svsound.com/news-news.cfm

if you look at the PDF File below it has pictures of the new front firing PB13 with a grill in the front with specs.

at 125lbs for a single sub, its a BEAST!!!!

http://www.svsound.com/CES2007/SVS_PB_PCUltra13SubsSheet.pdf
Very cool...should be world-class.

When is the PB13 Ultra/2 coming out? I'm very anxious for a new subwoofer (and this is the first sub I'll be buying from SVS and I am buying without hearing it first.. (no time to audition) How much will it cost? My top options right now are the F113, PB13 U/2, DTS-20 and the Submersive. All around the same price.. I'm 15 so this will be my first 'real' subwoofer (current is a DLS-5000R). I want it to atleast last me a few years.. My room is 10 ft long, 8 ft ceiling, 8 ft wide. Thanks guys.

Where do you work that you're making that kind of money at 15? For a room that size with the subs you named, you just might not have a room left after a few scences in War of The Worlds. The F113 is a $3K subwoofer, right? You've got to tell us your secret---where do you work?

Is that a metal front grill of some sort in the PB13? Or just the picture?

When is the PB13 Ultra/2 coming out? I'm very anxious for a new subwoofer (and this is the first sub I'll be buying from SVS and I am buying without hearing it first.. (no time to audition) How much will it cost? My top options right now are the F113, PB13 U/2, DTS-20 and the Submersive. All around the same price.. I'm 15 so this will be my first 'real' subwoofer (current is a DLS-5000R). I want it to atleast last me a few years.. My room is 10 ft long, 8 ft ceiling, 8 ft wide. Thanks guys.

Wow, call me crazy, but with the new Ultra /2 which will be fairly LARGE, you will not have enough room to sit down. That is unless you glue some padding on top of the sub and use it as seat! You would save money on butt kickers for sure!

There is no way you need anything close to the subs you are considering in a room that size...especially with a 225+ pound Ultra/2. BTW, the Ultra/2 may not be out until very late this year. I would lean toward a F113 or a single Ultra-13 due to space constraints very small room size.

Is that a metal front grill of some sort in the PB13? Or just the picture?Looks to me like perforated metal. Not sure I like the see-through look. Hopefully they will offer a cloth grill as well.

When is the PB13 Ultra/2 coming out? I'm very anxious for a new subwoofer (and this is the first sub I'll be buying from SVS and I am buying without hearing it first.. (no time to audition) How much will it cost? My top options right now are the F113, PB13 U/2, DTS-20 and the Submersive. All around the same price.. I'm 15 so this will be my first 'real' subwoofer (current is a DLS-5000R). I want it to atleast last me a few years.. My room is 10 ft long, 8 ft ceiling, 8 ft wide. Thanks guys.



Wait.......are you actually serious?

10x8x8 is only 640cubic feet!!!!

Seriously.....you would actually be doing yourself a DISSERVICE by getting the subs you are talking about.

A SINGLE Ultra or a F113, or a HSU HO with Turbo would be WAY MORE THAN PLENTY of sub for a room so small...

I understand you want to go BIG, but in your case I think you are going overboard...

How would the new PB-ultra compare to the original ultra/2?

I'm very serious about the purchase. Disregard my room.. What has the best performance?
I think a Submersive is better than a F113, but I am not so sure.. Also about the DTS-20.. I have enough room to stand it up in the same place I would put the F113 or Submersive. Again, overall best performance is of greatest concern. I don't have a great home theater room like you guys.. It's just my small office/theater. Just regular office seats.

EDIT: Also, how would 2 PB13 Ultras stacked on top of each other perform against a Single F113? Also.. Anyone know about the Gotham G213? It seems to be fairly nice. :)

Answer to 'how I do it..'
http://www.myspace.com/envy_entertainment
http://envyentertainment.i8.com/

DJ on weekends. Check the contacts on the Envy website. All paperwork you need to see unless you hire me is there. :) Southern California only please.. We're based in Huntington Beach. :)

When is the PB13 Ultra/2 coming out? I'm very anxious for a new subwoofer (and this is the first sub I'll be buying from SVS and I am buying without hearing it first.. (no time to audition) How much will it cost? My top options right now are the F113, PB13 U/2, DTS-20 and the Submersive. All around the same price.. I'm 15 so this will be my first 'real' subwoofer (current is a DLS-5000R). I want it to atleast last me a few years.. My room is 10 ft long, 8 ft ceiling, 8 ft wide. Thanks guys.

I have a room around this size(9.5*11*6.5(as a mezzanine cuts the room about in half)).

Many few subs in there. Go for the JL Audio f113 you will outclass anything other 15 and what most "adults" here own by a good margin. ;)

I use f113's,two and a single f112 in the small room,plus three Klipsch RSW subs(10,12 and 15) act as MBM modules. :p I do not complain,the power is there at all times when I dare pump up the volume,limitless bass.

The other coice would be to wait for the new Ultra with the 13.5 woofer and EQ.Wil it best the f113 in sound quality,I bet all I own NOT. Will it be close,probably. Output it should have a bit more,as capable as the f113 is nothing in its size bests it,and slightly larger vented subs best in by small margins in SPL.

I'm very serious about the purchase. Disregard my room.. What has the best performance?
I think a Submersive is better than a F113, but I am not so sure.. Also about the DTS-20.. I have enough room to stand it up in the same place I would put the F113 or Submersive. Again, overall best performance is of greatest concern. I don't have a great home theater room like you guys.. It's just my small office/theater. Just regular office seats.

EDIT: Also, how would 2 PB13 Ultras stacked on top of each other perform against a Single F113? Also.. Anyone know about the Gotham G213? It seems to be fairly nice. :)

Answer to 'how I do it..'
http://www.myspace.com/envy_entertainment
http://envyentertainment.i8.com/

DJ on weekends. Check the contacts on the Envy website. All paperwork you need to see unless you hire me is there. :) Southern California only please.. We're based in Huntington Beach. :)


I remember when I was 15 we had paper routes,and bag grocery....Oh these crazy kids with their My space, and what not.... I am for sure envious....appropriate name for company...GO BIG KID! Like that you wouldn't have any regrates. ;)

How would the new PB-ultra compare to the original ultra/2?

The upcoming Ultra-13 will be roughly equal to the current generation Ultra-12/2. It will have some serious output! The sound quality will be the only question. Will it be good, of course! Will it be as good or better then an F113 or DD-18, doubtfull, either way you can bet the debate will rage...

Wait.......are you actually serious?

10x8x8 is only 640cubic feet!!!!

Seriously.....you would actually be doing yourself a DISSERVICE by getting the subs you are talking about.

A SINGLE Ultra or a F113, or a HSU HO with Turbo would be WAY MORE THAN PLENTY of sub for a room so small...

I understand you want to go BIG, but in your case I think you are going overboard...

One thing is for sure. You will be wasting your money by going with a sub that is designed for 5000 cubic ft spaces. You could better spend your money on a great center channel or TV...there is more to HT than subs...

You can only listen to movies and music so loud and for short periods of time. If you insist on listening at insane levels you will pay for it later in the form of trading in subwoofers for hearing aides.

One thing is for sure. You will be wasting your money by going with a sub that is designed for 5000 cubic ft spaces. You could better spend your money on a great center channel or TV...there is more to HT than subs...

You can only listen to movies and music so loud and for short periods of time. If you insist on listening at insane levels you will pay for it later in the form of trading in subwoofers for hearing aides.

You sound like my dad. It's all about SPL levels to him too.. My DLS-5000R couldn't hit 19hz at higher than 30db if it's mere existence depended on it.

You sound like my dad. It's all about SPL levels to him too.. My DLS-5000R couldn't hit 19hz at higher than 30db if it's mere existence depended on it.

did you measure the frequency response?

anyway, my first decent sub was the 5000R ... then I moved on to the axiom EP500, believe me when I say that although there was improvement, don't expect improvement equal to the money you add. (e.g. twice the price, therefore twice the performance)

for movies, in my 2600 cu.ft. room, the 5000R is more than sufficient

... in a room as "big" as yours, a 5000R is ALWAYS near field :)

Spezzy, do yourself a favor and get ONE new Ultra cylinder when they come out.
It will only take up a 16" circle of your floorspace, can be moved around in-house easiliy, and can be one-man moved further with a handtruck if you so desire :)

You sound like my dad. It's all about SPL levels to him too.. My DLS-5000R couldn't hit 19hz at higher than 30db if it's mere existence depended on it.

Sorry, that may be true, but you may be looking back in 20 years when you are not 10 ft. tall and bulletproof and say "Man, I should have listened to that guy and my dad who warned me about hearing loss." Trust me it happens, I know quite a few people in their 30s that frequenlty went to rock concerts and/or rode around with booming car stereos (which are not any louder in most cases than what you are talking about) and they now have significant hearing loss. So, take the friendly advice or not, but it can and will happen...

Your DLS may not due it at the lowest frequencies, but at the higher onese it can still play very loudly albeit maybe with quite a bit of distortion.... I think you just need a more capable sub.

did you measure the frequency response?
anyway, my first decent sub was the 5000R ... then I moved on to the axiom EP500, believe me when I say that although there was improvement, don't expect improvement equal to the money you add. (e.g. twice the price, therefore twice the performance)

for movies, in my 2600 cu.ft. room, the 5000R is more than sufficient

... in a room as "big" as yours, a 5000R is ALWAYS near field :)


I was just making a guess.. I get no usable FR at 20hz so I figured it would roll off.


Sorry, that may be true, but you may be looking back in 20 years when you are not 10 ft. tall and bulletproof and say "Man, I should have listened to that guy and my dad who warned me about hearing loss." Trust me it happens, I know quite a few people in their 30s that frequenlty went to rock concerts and/or rode around with booming car stereos (which are not any louder in most cases than what you are talking about) and they now have significant hearing loss. So, take the friendly advice or not, but it can and will happen...

Your DLS may not due it at the lowest frequencies, but at the higher onese it can still play very loudly albeit maybe with quite a bit of distortion.... I think you just need a more capable sub.

True. I'm not trying to make myself deaf. I just want the lower frequencies I don't have. I don't blast my HT to the point my ears are hurting or where my house is shaking.. Often.

I was just making a guess.. I get no usable FR at 20hz so I figured it would roll off.

True. I'm not trying to make myself deaf. I just want the lower frequencies I don't have. I don't blast my HT to the point my ears are hurting or where my house is shaking.. Often.

Well, if you are used to a DLS series, I am guessing a new Ultra-13 or Fathom 113 will be equal to 4 or more of your DLSs at 25Hz and below and with almost no audible distortion comparatively speaking.

Well, if you are used to a DLS series, I am guessing a new Ultra-13 or Fathom 113 will be equal to 4 or more of your DLSs at 25Hz and below and with almost no audible distortion comparatively speaking.

As good of a budget sub as the DLS5000 is it is not even close in sound quality and output at 25Hz from the f113.The DLS is a caveman sub next to the f113.

And the deeper you go the more the f113 or even current SVS Ultra dominates.

Does any one have any clue as to the ETA of the new ultra series subs?

Also what is the expected price hike for the new ultra?
20% increase from 1200 would make it 1440
30% increase from 1200 would make it 1560

Does any one have any clue as to the ETA of the new ultra series subs?

Also what is the expected price hike for the new ultra?
20% increase from 1200 would make it 1440
30% increase from 1200 would make it 1560

As indicated somewhere earlier in the thread;

Single Ultras late 1st quarter or early 2nd

Ultra/2 late 4th quarter

Hope that helps.

As indicated somewhere earlier in the thread;

Single Ultras late 1st quarter or early 2nd

Ultra/2 late 4th quarter

Hope that helps.

thanks.

Hopefully they follow the traditional yearly calendar.

According to that, late first quarter = March, early second is April.

thanks.

Hopefully they follow the traditional yearly calendar.

According to that, late first quarter = March, early second is April.

They do, but the release has already been delayed several times. Alhtough, things are a lot closer to production/release than they were before (literature, specs, finalized driver, etc). So, unless there is some serious setback I would expect the Ultra cylinder and single box available for pre-order by sometime in the next few weeks.

Does any one have any clue as to the ETA of the new ultra series subs?

Also what is the expected price hike for the new ultra?
20% increase from 1200 would make it 1440
30% increase from 1200 would make it 1560


I'm thinking more along the lines of going from $1199 to maybe $1299 or $1349.

I don't think they'll bump it pas $1399 just because of the HUGE success HSU is having with their 3.3 and their HO models, BOTH of which are priced under $1000!!!!!!!!!

SVS is only updating its Ultra series correct?

Their current plus series with the 12.3 drivers are not going to be replaced correct?

SVS is only updating its Ultra series correct?

Their current plus series with the 12.3 drivers are not going to be replaced correct?Correct, at least for now. The 12.3 drivers were released in May of 2006. The NSD drivers came out a couple months later.

With the latest release of improved subs, I don't think SVS can stand pat on the 12.3 Plus driver for long. They are going to have to raise its performance level along with all their subs fairly soon or they will start losing market share. They fired the first shot, now everyone else is shooting back.

Correct, at least for now. The 12.3 drivers were released in May of 2006. The NSD drivers came out a couple months later.

With the latest release of improved subs, I don't think SVS can stand pat on the 12.3 Plus driver for long. They are going to have to raise its performance level along with all their subs fairly soon or they will start losing market share. They fired the first shot, now everyone else is shooting back.

Boy, isn't that the truth? Back when I purchased my first SVS there was nothing even remotely close for the money. Now, the market is flooded with some pretty darn good companies and their respective products. It certainly is good for us, the consumers. Although, we can change subwoofers like we change underwear and still not have the latest/greatest. The SVS NSD/Plus lines are still great performers, but they are not they used to be comparitively speaking. Hopefully, the Ultra will be the next salvo to put them ahead of the pack, and of course force everyone else to up the ante, AGAIN!

I can't wait for the PB13, because of it's smaller size than a PB12/+ 2, I can set it right next to the sofa (like an end table) and watch moves at a lower volume. My wife and kids will thank me for that. I am tempted to put my current SVS subs for sale right now, but I don't want to be with out bass for a while in case the PB13 gets push back or something.

Pardon my ignorance but I haven't heard about the PB13, only the Ultra's. Is the PB13 going to compare to a PB12 plus 2?

Info on PB13

http://www.svsound.com/CES2007/SVS_PB_PCUltra13SubsSheet.pdf

Thanks!! That would be a good substitute for the plus 2, thats one reason I have not pulled the trigger as of yet with a new SVS was the size. This may change my mind.

the 13 looks ugly. svs should have stayed with the old design. i think i'll go for the cylinder.

the 13 looks ugly. svs should have stayed with the old design. i think i'll go for the cylinder.Hard to tell if that is a real grill or just photo shopped on the pic. I hope that in not the grill. I don't think I would like the see-thru design. The driver itself is probably just a proto and not the final presentation.

the 13 looks ugly. svs should have stayed with the old design. i think i'll go for the cylinder.


I think it looks good.

the 13 looks ugly. svs should have stayed with the old design. i think i'll go for the cylinder.


are you crazy (kidding)....that 3 port design and front firing woofer looks sweet!

The picture they show is just a sketch...its not a real photograph...

the 13 looks ugly. svs should have stayed with the old design. i think i'll go for the cylinder.

It looks like a drawing, so I will reserve judgment until I see the official pictures.

The grill material on the front of the PB13 looks very similar to the stuff they use to cap the cylinder subs. Remember that the ports are firing through that so you wouldn't want a typical fabric cover because it would be fluttering around a lot.

the 13 looks ugly. svs should have stayed with the old design. i think i'll go for the cylinder.

The render may not look great,just wait for the real deal in pictures.I think it will come out great.

The grill material on the front of the PB13 looks very similar to the stuff they use to cap the cylinder subs. Remember that the ports are firing through that so you wouldn't want a typical fabric cover because it would be fluttering around a lot.Maybe they should move the ports to a separate box that can be stacked on top. ;)

Its forward thinking on Hsu's part to address this deficiency head on with the MBM-12 which appears to be made for anyone with an SVS sub.

Funny you should say that because I'm thinking about ordering an MBM-12 this weekend to pair up with my 20-39PCi. I had to sell my DD-15 last year and I'm hoping that the MBM-12 will give me back some of that punch that I'm missing with the SVS.