From thedigitalbits, of course. Pasted without commentary. ;)

We've also finally heard back from Warner per our high-def inquiry from early last week. We've spoken today with Warner Home Video's VP of HD Media Development, Dan Silverberg, about the studio's support of both the HD-DVD and Blu-ray Disc formats moving forward. Here's what he had to say:

"WHV's objective is to have triple day and date releases for all new theatrical titles on DVD, HD DVD and Blu-ray Disc. We began this with The Lake House and more recently Superman Returns and Ant Bully. As for our catalog titles, we would like to have simultaneous HD DVD and Blu-ray Disc releases. Again, this is something we have done recently with National Lampoon's Christmas Vacation and A Christmas Story, and will be doing with Scooby-Doo and Alexander: The Director's Cut, as well as recent DVD releases coming soon to high def like Wickerman and Beerfest, both being the unrated versions.

We also plan to make every effort to "catch-up" the 2006 titles currently only out on HD DVD with the Blu-ray versions in 2007. There are two reasons that the discrepancy exists. One has to do with the interactivity layer for BD with respect to picture-in-picture functionality. Some of our titles like Batman Begins and V for Vendetta have extensive interactive experiences and we don't want the Blu-ray consumer to have a "lesser" experience. We expect that this enhanced interactivity will be ready on the Blu-ray side soon. The other reason had to do with length of movies and the availability of 50 GB discs. That situation has already improved, as the releases of Unforgiven, Last Samurai and Goodfellas (1/16) show. We are also working on Enter the Dragon and a few others for early 2007 Blu-ray release as part of that "catching up" plan."

There ya go.

So, it's official... the interactivity portion of Blu-Ray, coming late, has really bit them in the ass.

It's given as the sole reason that the Blu-Ray guys don't have some of Warner's best relesese to date.

The other reason had to do with length of movies and the availability of 50 GB discs. That situation has already improved, as the releases of Unforgiven, Last Samurai and Goodfellas (1/16) show.

So wait. Is Warner saying they need 50GB discs on the Blu-ray side to make up for the better compression that VC-1 gives them on HD DVD and because of that Unforgiven, Last Samurai, and Goodfellas simply won't fit on a 25 GB disc?

So wait. Is Warner saying they need 50GB discs on the Blu-ray side to make up for the better compression that VC-1 gives them on HD DVD and because of that Unforgiven, Last Samurai, and Goodfellas simply won't fit on a 25 GB disc?

No. All Warner BD titles released since September have been VC-1 and used the same encode as HD DVD.

Hallelujah, bring the BD loving, Warner

Great news! I am sure many Blu-ray only owners are really looking forward to some of those titles.

From thedigitalbits, of course. Pasted without commentary. ;)
"WHV's objective is to have triple day and date releases for all new theatrical titles on DVD, HD DVD and Blu-ray Disc.
There ya go.

That's what I have been looking for... :)

Without at least parity for new releases with the HD version getting the same day and date as DVD was a serious error to getting HD on shiny disc into the mainstream.

Hopefully they will start giving HD a two week head start to really give a good reason to pay the premium for both HW and media...

b2b

Some of our titles like Batman Begins and V for Vendetta have extensive interactive experiences and we don't want the Blu-ray consumer to have a "lesser" experience.



They should really be commended for trying to give owners of both formats the same experience.

Okay then - now I have to ask this: How smooth/perfected truly is BD's advanced authoring and BD-50 yielding capabilities at this point then?

Are both of those things truly now as strong and easy as HD DVDs advanced authoring and HD DVD-30 production?

Or do BD fans have another significant wait ahead of them (for the best Warner titles, most-advanced titles) while Sony struggles to get BD-50 yields produced at low-cost/very high ratios/quick turn-around and bring a fully-functional/very easy new authoring system to the forefront? If so, how long might that wait be?

Warner's intentions seem honest, fair, and noble - but will that change their preference to release more of their best stuff on HD DVD (any time soon) - if and when it is so much easier/cheaper to create or produce such stuff on it instead of BD?

So is this the cause of catalog HD DVD titles that we know are already made being delayed from release till they can match the interactivity on BR? Where is the darn Harry Potter and Matrix movie for HD DVD?

Okay then - now I have to ask this: How smooth/perfected truly is BD's advanced authoring and BD-50 yielding capabilities at this point then?

Are both of those things truly now as strong and easy as HD DVDs advanced authoring and HD DVD-30 production?

Or do BD fans have another significant wait ahead of them (for the best Warner titles, most-advanced titles) while Sony struggles to get BD-50 yields produced at low-cost/very high ratios/quick turn-around and bring a fully-functional/very easy new authoring system to the forefront? If so, how long might that wait be?

Warner's intentions seem honest, fair, and noble - but will that change their preference to release more of their best stuff on HD DVD (any time soon) - if and when it is so much easier/cheaper to create or produce such stuff on it instead of BD?

Continuing on with the BD-50GB FUD = http://www.filmhobbit.com/forum/images/admins/smilies/deadhorse.gif

The new campaign is BD-J & BD-Live... Come on now.. keep up... :)

b2b

If so, how long might that wait be?


The answer is right there, if you bother to read the article in the first place:

We also plan to make every effort to "catch-up" the 2006 titles currently only out on HD DVD with the Blu-ray versions in 2007.

They should really be commended for trying to give owners of both formats the same experience.

I'm not sure about 'commending' Warner for much...

If they want a uniform experience all around, I'm not sure I understand the laziness on their parts in getting the recent BD films the audio tracks they deserve.

Anyway still, good news overall.

Grubert, btb - could you guys just frankly/briefly answer my questions instead of making your "little comments"? :p ...Seriously, though, - I was being honest in my questions - not cynical.

Grubert, I read the article - 2007, yes, - but 2007 is a long ****ing time. I was looking for a more specific guess-timation from those who knew the answers to the questions I posed before it. You see, starved and impatient high-def fans can't wait 3 weeks for HD DVD announcements at CES without going insane. I don't want to imagine how bitter BD fans will get (and justifiably so) - if they actually will be waiting to get Batman Begins all the way into the second half of next year.

As for my other questions - I need someone who's aware to just quickly, honestly answer them. I haven't been following BD's track-record of success or BD in general like many others have. So I'm truthfully curious. Is BD in a position where they could have Batman Begins authoring on a BD-50 tomorrow? And as easily/cheapily as it could be done on HD DVD? Or are there some hurdles (minor or major) that must be overcome to reach that point?

Last time I checked BD-50 yields weren't 100% perfect, costed a little more, were a little more difficult to make and were being subsidized by Sony for the studios to have something out there. Last time I checked, there was a very small percentages of BD-50 titles actually available or in the pipe-line. And last time I checked - advanced BD authoring tools like picture-in-picture were either non-existant or just being introduced.

Again though, I'm just being honest here. That last paragraph I just wrote was NOT being cynical or snide to BD. That's just honestly what my understanding of the BD situation is/was. But maybe I'm a confused nut about that stuff and more developments have been made.

So could somebody please help me out here?

This is what I've been saying for at least 3 weeks now. I also posted that a Microsoft VP said as much in the latest WSR. It has to do with the PiP aspect of BD. Of course, people like Plazman continued to believe that WB has some secret "favoring" of HD DVD when the more simple explanation here makes total sense. Of course, the vision of some people here has been clouded by a different MS VP here. Tis a shame, really.

Whatever, some people around here are in a fantasy world.

As to the question of "where's Harry Potter and the Matrix"...think about it. These are BIG catalog titles from WB. BD is/was not ready to provide the "full experience/interactivity" WB wanted, and my GUESS is that the BDA has asked WB to hold those titles from HD DVD in North America until the BD versions are able to provide a "comparable" experience so that they can be released simultaneously (or as close to simultanesously as possible).

Now, I'm sure some jokers here are going to "hate the BDA" even more now, citing the interactivity delays on BD and "strong-arming from the BDA" as reasons they cannot get their favorite WB titles ASAP on HD DVD. But, I would think they should be asking why WB would comply with such a request...

If they want a uniform experience all around, I'm not sure I understand the laziness on their parts in getting the recent BD films the audio tracks they deserve.

If the BD players could decode the advanced audio codecs, I'm sure Warner would put the same audio on BD that they're putting on HD.

I'm not sure about 'commending' Warner for much...

If they want a uniform experience all around, I'm not sure I understand the laziness on their parts in getting the recent BD films the audio tracks they deserve.

Anyway still, good news overall.

I'm really curious about Warner's response to the question of 'Why do none of your Blu-ray releases have lossless audio tracks?' as well, but it does SEEM that it could be a temporary technical issue like the early VC-1 problem/ current interactivity problem.

At least it doesn't appear, in my opinion, that Warner is purposely favoring HD DVD.

If the BD players could decode the advanced audio codecs, I'm sure Warner would put the same audio on BD that they're putting on HD.

They put TrueHD tracks on HD DVD discs before the players could decode them.

... and...

The PS3 DOES decode TrueHD currently and is the highest selling hi def player available.

.... and....

With a supposed firmware upgrade coming soon, the Panasonic player will be TrueHD capable.

So, I don't think your point is completely valid.

I'm really curious about Warner's response to the question of 'Why do none of your Blu-ray releases have lossless audio tracks?' as well, but it does SEEM that it could be a temporary technical issue like the early VC-1 problem/ current interactivity problem.
I believe that is the case. Someone had posted rather recently about the differences in the way TrueHD is handled on each respective format. Had something to do with a core packet, and layering of the lossles on one format vs. the other. I'm not sure I "get it", and hope that someone could comment and/or verify that this is indeed the case.

So because BD couldn't get it's act together HD DVD owners suffer?

You see, starved and impatient high-def fans can't wait 3 weeks for HD DVD announcements at CES without going insane. I don't want to imagine how bitter BD fans will get (and justifiably so) - if they actually will be waiting to get Batman Begins all the way into the second half of next year.

PiP is not required in BD until June, and that is only for players manufactured after that date. No telling when those players hit the market. Batman on BD will have to to wait until after that. I would suspect that the release will be closer to the end of the year than the beginning.

I believe that is the case. Someone had posted rather recently about the differences in the way TrueHD is handled on each respective format. Had something to do with a core packet, and layering of the lossles on one format vs. the other. I'm not sure I "get it", and hope that someone could comment and/or verify that this is indeed the case.

I hope, if this is the case, that it is dealt with soon. But, if it can't be for whatever reason, I really don't mind Warner holding back titles like Batman Begins, V for Vendetta, and The Matrix until the issue is resolved. It would really be a shame if those discs are released without lossless audio of some sort.

I wonder what the issue is with them not simply slapping a LPCM track on though in the meantime. Does Warner have a deal with Dolby?

PiP is not required in BD until June, and that is only for players manufactured after that date. No telling when those players hit the market. Batman on BD will have to to wait until after that. I would suspect that the release will be closer to the end of the year than the beginning. Wow, see, I didn't know this. Thanks for your reply - and if anyone else has additional input on the questions I posed - please provide it.

But what does this mean? HD DVD fans now won't see Matrix, Harry Potter, or any other PiP/advanced authoring title til after next June (when they were promised them this summer) - just because of whatever BS Blu-ray is going through?

And I need further clarification as to what you are saying, crussader. Maybe I'm dense - but I thought PiP wasn't as dependant on hardware. Are you saying that none of the current BD players (including the PS3) are capable of doing PiP, no matter how the discs are authored? But things like a cheap HD DVD drive can?

And why would PiP not being required til June mean that there is no way for BD to get these titles until after that? Is there no chance BD won't offer a solution (either through new hardware/firmware/authoring/or whatever) prior to June or that Warner won't just release those titles anyway? (I know we're speculating here but that's fine - just curious of your/the opinion)

Grubert, btb - could you guys just frankly/briefly answer my questions instead of making your "little comments"? :p ...Seriously, though, - I was being honest in my questions - not cynical.

Grubert, I read the article - 2007, yes, - but 2007 is a long ****ing time. I was looking for a more specific guess-timation from those who knew the answers to the questions I posed before it. You see, starved and impatient high-def fans can't wait 3 weeks for HD DVD announcements at CES without going insane. I don't want to imagine how bitter BD fans will get (and justifiably so) - if they actually will be waiting to get Batman Begins all the way into the second half of next year.

As for my other questions - I need someone who's aware to just quickly, honestly answer them. I haven't been following BD's track-record of success or BD in general like many others have. So I'm truthfully curious. Is BD in a position where they could have Batman Begins authoring on a BD-50 tomorrow? And as easily/cheapily as it could be done on HD DVD? Or are there some hurdles (minor or major) that must be overcome to reach that point?

Last time I checked BD-50 yields weren't 100% perfect, costed a little more, were a little more difficult to make and were being subsidized by Sony for the studios to have something out there. Last time I checked, there was a very small percentages of BD-50 titles actually available or in the pipe-line. And last time I checked - advanced BD authoring tools like picture-in-picture were either non-existant or just being introduced.

Again though, I'm just being honest here. That last paragraph I just wrote was NOT being cynical or snide to BD. That's just honestly what my understanding of the BD situation is/was. But maybe I'm a confused nut about that stuff and more developments have been made.

So could somebody please help me out here?

The only person that has any qualifications to comment on the BD-50GB situation said this..
The titles that were released on BD25 were relatively short runtimes. This allowed us to include the picture and sound we wanted for all the titles. You will see a great deal of BD50 in the future (something like 75 - 80%). That will give us the flexiblity to release any title we want without compromises.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9191150&&#post9191150

b2b

Wow, see, I didn't know this. Thanks for your reply - and if anyone else has additional input on the questions I posed - please provide it.

But what does this mean? HD DVD fans now won't see Matrix, Harry Potter, or any other PiP/advanced authoring title til after next June (when they were promised them this summer) - just because of whatever BS Blu-ray is going through?

And I need further clarification as to what you are saying, crussader. Maybe I'm dense - but I thought PiP wasn't as dependant on hardware. Are you saying that none of the current BD players (including the PS3) are capable of doing PiP, no matter how the discs are authored? But things like a cheap HD DVD drive can?

And why would PiP not being required til June mean that there is no way for BD to get these titles until after that? Is there no chance BD won't offer a solution (either through new hardware/firmware/authoring/or whatever) prior to June or that Warner won't just release those titles anyway? (I know we're speculating here but that's fine - just curious of your/the opinion)
The new campaign is BD-J & BD-Live... Come on now.. keep up... :)
Glad to see you're up to speed.... ;)

b2b

They put TrueHD tracks on HD DVD discs before the players could decode them.Not true. the HD DVD spec requires that all players decode at least 2 channels of TrueHD. The original A1/XA1 could play stereo TrueHD off of the POTO disc. We just got to enjoy 5.1 TrueHD with the firmware 2.0 release.

The only person that has any qualifications to comment on the BD-50GB situation said this..

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9191150&&#post9191150

b2b Glad to see you're up to speed.... ;)

b2bHah, okay, - thanks, btb, for everything. That is interesting and actually very cool. I hope that BD-50 prediction does actually come to fruition (and I have no reason to believe it will not, I guess) and is the reality for the future of the format. That would be so much better for high-def fans in general.

Hmm, little news/info tidbits like this makes me look forward to CES even more. Reminds me that beyond just the obvious interesting things like title announcements - we may hear all kinds of lesser bullet-points that are no less exciting. (Such as status/usage/& plans for codecs, advanced authoring, capacities, web connectivity, etc - of both formats. Will be very cool to hear! :D )

Not true. the HD DVD spec requires that all players decode at least 2 channels of TrueHD. The original A1/XA1 could play stereo TrueHD off of the POTO disc. We just got to enjoy 5.1 TrueHD with the firmware 2.0 release.

yeah... sorry... meant to say "5.1 TrueHD tracks"... but my argument still stands with this correction.

All I'm saying is that Warner put the soundtrack on the disc before the player could fully use it, so they don't seem to have any apprehension future-proofing their titles somewhat.

It does sound like it's a technical/ authoring reason Warner is holding back TrueHD tracks from Blu-ray releases, though (posted in the 'Insiders' thread):

Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet:
Question for WB insiders:

Why does the BD of Superman Returns lack the Dolby True HD Lossless track that's included on the HD DVD?

Since all BD players (even those that can't "decode" Dolby true HD at the moment) can pass the 640 DD core from a D-True-HD track, why eliminate it? My PS3 can transcode D-True-HD to LPCM and most current players that can't will be upgraded.

Response by Talkstr8t:

I have no direct knowledge of Warner's rationale, but TrueHD on Blu-ray has a different format than on HD-DVD. On HD-DVD it's a single stream. On Blu-ray it's a core DD stream plus a peripheral stream which, when processed together with the core stream, provides the lossless stream. Therefore Warner would have to re-encode the audio. I can't imagine this is a big enough deal for them not to do it, but perhaps it has a ripple effect making the whole encode far more expensive.

No. All Warner BD titles released since September have been VC-1 and used the same encode as HD DVD.

Thanks Grubert. But this still confuses me. Basically I'm asking if those movies were bigger than 25GB, but enough for 30GB, and they couldn't release until BD-50 was more mainstream?

Response by Talkstr8t:

I have no direct knowledge of Warner's rationale, but TrueHD on Blu-ray has a different format than on HD-DVD. On HD-DVD it's a single stream. On Blu-ray it's a core DD stream plus a peripheral stream which, when processed together with the core stream, provides the lossless stream. Therefore Warner would have to re-encode the audio. I can't imagine this is a big enough deal for them not to do it, but perhaps it has a ripple effect making the whole encode far more expensive.^^^Wow, so that's interesting too. It may be true then that current costs of encoding a TrueHD BD disc in the authoring process is significantly higher then it is for HD DVD to do the same. Therefore, we may see far less (or zero) TrueHD tracks on BD discs compared to HD DVD for a long time. Meaning that the only time BD will ever really see TrueHD tracks in a significant amount of titles is when the costs of encoding have just dropped in general and not necessarily even when/if BD authoring/encoding tools have improved - yes?

Sorry if I'm still "catching up" or confused...

^^^Wow, so that's interesting too. It may be true then that current costs of encoding a TrueHD BD disc in the authoring process is significantly higher then it is for HD DVD to do the same. Therefore, we may see far less (or zero) TrueHD tracks on BD discs compared to HD DVD for a long time. Meaning that the only time BD will ever really see TrueHD tracks in a significant amount of titles is when the costs of encoding have just dropped in general and not necessarily even when/if BD authoring/encoding tools have improved - yes?

Sorry if I'm still "catching up" or confused...

Yeah... that could be the issue, but I can also read this as the process is just 'different' for Blu-ray than HD DVD and not necessarily more expensive. Where Talkstr8t says it would be more expensive, I think he could mean that since the HD DVD TrueHD tracks are already done, it would be added cost to have to go and do the Blu-ray version as well. Maybe once Warner figures out a way to do them at the same time or at least makes it a point to add TrueHD to Blu-ray, the whole Blu-ray disc authoring process won't necessarily be any more/less expensive than for HD DVD.

Good to see more great titles come for my PS3 :)

I own a PS3 and a handful of Blu-ray movies, but I have to admit that these technical and tool support issues on the Blu-ray side like early VC-1 support, interactivity issues, and possible TrueHD tool support are really frustrating. How can all this stuff not be worked out by now? I know HD DVD has its share of issues too like seamless branching and early 5.1 TrueHD hardware support/ hardware glitches, so I'm not necessarily just frustrated with Blu-ray.

Weren't both HD DVD and Blu-ray both scheduled to initially launch in late '05???.... and we're still seeing big issues???

Grubert, I read the article - 2007, yes, - but 2007 is a long ****ing time. I was looking for a more specific guess-timation from those who knew the answers to the questions I posed before it. You see, starved and impatient high-def fans can't wait 3 weeks for HD DVD announcements at CES without going insane. I don't want to imagine how bitter BD fans will get (and justifiably so) - if they actually will be waiting to get Batman Begins all the way into the second half of next year.

As for my other questions - I need someone who's aware to just quickly, honestly answer them. I haven't been following BD's track-record of success or BD in general like many others have. So I'm truthfully curious. Is BD in a position where they could have Batman Begins authoring on a BD-50 tomorrow? And as easily/cheapily as it could be done on HD DVD? Or are there some hurdles (minor or major) that must be overcome to reach that point?

Last time I checked BD-50 yields weren't 100% perfect, costed a little more, were a little more difficult to make and were being subsidized by Sony for the studios to have something out there. Last time I checked, there was a very small percentages of BD-50 titles actually available or in the pipe-line. And last time I checked - advanced BD authoring tools like picture-in-picture were either non-existant or just being introduced.

Again though, I'm just being honest here. That last paragraph I just wrote was NOT being cynical or snide to BD. That's just honestly what my understanding of the BD situation is/was. But maybe I'm a confused nut about that stuff and more developments have been made.

So could somebody please help me out here?
All of Buena Vista/Pixar/Disney's 2007 titles are going to be on BD50. Paramount has released BD50. Sony, Lionsgate and Fox have all released BD50.

[QUOTE=Amiable-AkumaWe may see far less (or zero) TrueHD tracks on BD discs compared to HD DVD for a long time. Meaning that the only time BD will ever really see TrueHD tracks in a significant amount of titles is when the costs of encoding have just dropped in general and not necessarily even when/if BD authoring/encoding tools have improved - yes?
[/QUOTE]
There is already one BD title with TrueHD - Legends of Jazz.
Fox are releasing all titles with DTS-HD Master Audio, which is lossless like TrueHD. Sony camp and Disney camp are releasing PCM tracks which are lossless like TrueHD and DTS-MA.
So far Warner is the only HD DVD supporter to have released a TrueHD track; only 9 titles so far. 9 titles out of over 100!
The Blu-ray exclusive studios have released lossless tracks on nearly 100% of their titles.
I'll take TrueHD, DTS-MA or PCM over DD+, DD, DTS and DTS:ES any day of the week.

I guess the fact that Harry Potter and the Matrix won't be released on HD DVD until Blu-ray is ready is an example of playing to the "lowest common denominator". In the past, some Blu-ray folks have had issues with that sort of thing. I assume this is ok with you now. ;)

I guess the fact that Harry Potter and the Matrix won't be released on HD DVD until Blu-ray is ready is an example of playing to the "lowest common denominator". In the past, some Blu-ray folks have had issues with that sort of thing. I assume this is ok with you now. ;)
It is not a fact with regard to Harry Potter and The Matrix. It was merely a guess on my part, and I CLEARLY noted that in my post above. However, it is a fact with regards to Batman Begins, V for Vendetta, etc (i.e. some of the titles on HD DVD but not on BD yet) that the interactivity caused a delay on the BD release.

Is is POSSIBLE Harry Potter and Matrix are being delayed for simultaneous release due to BD interactivity issues (and that was my GUESS). But it is also just as possible that WB didn't release them in North America at this moment due to marketing reasons, or just due to their general release schedule/plans. We do not know the reasons, but can only speculate.

I know what *I* think, but it is NOT A "FACT" that HD DVD titles have been delayed due to BD interactivity layer issues.

It is a fine line, but you know how things tend to get blown out of proportion here at AVS. Then, they are repeated untl they do seem like they are a "fact".

But what does this mean? HD DVD fans now won't see Matrix, Harry Potter, or any other PiP/advanced authoring title til after next June (when they were promised them this summer) - just because of whatever BS Blu-ray is going through?

Actually, Harry Potter is available now from Amazon UK (It plays just fine in US players). As for Matrix, there is no technical reason for its delay. I suspect it, like a lot of big titles, will be held back until the studios decide there are enough players out there to get the sales numbers they want.



And I need further clarification as to what you are saying, crussader. Maybe I'm dense - but I thought PiP wasn't as dependant on hardware. Are you saying that none of the current BD players (including the PS3) are capable of doing PiP, no matter how the discs are authored? But things like a cheap HD DVD drive can?


Apparently it is a hardware issue, or the BDA would not have set the June 07 deadline for it. Whether current players can handle it with a firmware update is unknown, and the BDA isn't commenting on the subject.



And why would PiP not being required til June mean that there is no way for BD to get these titles until after that?

BD could release the titles sooner, but I doubt they would without knowing that there are a significant number of players out there that can handle it.

Well, for the first time HBO has stepped up to the plate! The Sopranos Season 6, Pt. 1 on Blu-Ray has a PCM 5.1 track and the HD-DVD is DD+ lossy.

Come on WB!! If you seemingly are unwilling to get your TrueHD encoder ready for Blu-Ray then go for 24 bit LPCM tracks instead!

Dan

Yes, there will be more PCM tracks from Warner coming up in 2007.
Any lossless HD DVD release should be paired with a lossless BD release. TrueHD on HD DVD and PCM and eventually TrueHD on Blu-ray as well.

Well, for the first time HBO has stepped up to the plate! The Sopranos Season 6, Pt. 1 on Blu-Ray has a PCM 5.1 track and the HD-DVD is DD+ lossy.
WB is biased against HD DVD! :rolleyes:

^^^Wow, so that's interesting too. It may be true then that current costs of encoding a TrueHD BD disc in the authoring process is significantly higher then it is for HD DVD to do the same. Therefore, we may see far less (or zero) TrueHD tracks on BD discs compared to HD DVD for a long time. Meaning that the only time BD will ever really see TrueHD tracks in a significant amount of titles is when the costs of encoding have just dropped in general and not necessarily even when/if BD authoring/encoding tools have improved - yes?
No. As someone said, WB already has TrueHD tracks encoded in the format required by HD-DVD. Since BD requires different format (arrangement), they would need to re-encode for BD. That is an additional cost. Not that BD encoding of TrueHD is costly or anything (at least not as derived from TalkStr8t's post).

If you really want to catch up on BD (not just the audio side) you need to read last few pages of "Industry insiders Q&A" thread. Especially after the entry of PaidGeek. You are serious about that, right?

If we learn anything from this it's:


25GB is not enough for some movies, but 30GB is.

So WB needs 50GB discs for some releases, and IM compatibility for others.

my GUESS is that the BDA has asked WB to hold those titles from HD DVD in North America until the BD versions are able to provide a "comparable" experience so that they can be released simultaneously (or as close to simultanesously as possible).The BDA can't even begin to make such a request - it would be a gross anti-trust violation, something the member companies take very seriously (a lawyer starts every meeting by reminding those present of the responsibilities anti-trust laws dictate).

Not true. the HD DVD spec requires that all players decode at least 2 channels of TrueHD. The original A1/XA1 could play stereo TrueHD off of the POTO disc. We just got to enjoy 5.1 TrueHD with the firmware 2.0 release.

and BD requires that the DD and DTS cores of the lossless codecs be decoded in the player. Either way a studio that adds 5.1 lossless you would not get. On one it would have been stereo on the other 5.1 lossy

The BDA can't even begin to make such a request - it would be a gross anti-trust violation, something the member companies take very seriously (a lawyer starts every meeting by reminding those present of the responsibilities anti-trust laws dictate).
Thanks for eliminating that possibility. So, it's safe to assume that WB is doing this on their own then, for either one or a variety of reasons.

The BDA can't even begin to make such a request - it would be a gross anti-trust violation, something the member companies take very seriously (a lawyer starts every meeting by reminding those present of the responsibilities anti-trust laws dictate).

Have not been to a BDA meeting, but I have been to enough similar groups to support what he said. At one standards meeting an engineer joked that we should all agree to charge more to not have some feature (I can no longer remember what his joke was, just the lawyer's response). The group's lawyer's head almost exploded. He went on a 10 minute tirade about how we could not discuss setting prices in any way. When he finished, the engineer pointed out that he was clearly joking, but that did nothing to calm the lawyer.

/carmi

^^^So what does this mean? That there is probably then really no BD or format war reason why these titles were delayed? That Harry Potter and Matrix were just delayed for whatever reason - and that we could actually see them announced for Q1 on HD DVD by Warner at CES?

^^^So what does this mean? That there is probably then really no BD or format war reason why these titles were delayed? That Harry Potter and Matrix were just delayed for whatever reason - and that we could actually see them announced for Q1 on HD DVD by Warner at CES?
Without any inside information, that would seem to be a reasonable conclusion we can come to based on the information we have.

Without any inside information, that would seem to be a reasonable conclusion we can come to based on the information we have.

Without any inside information we can also guess that they were delayed to be included in a box set(both), or to be "saved" as part of a lead in to the next Movie's release in June/July...which would not give us Harry Potter in Q1...

Okay then - now I have to ask this: How smooth/perfected truly is BD's advanced authoring and BD-50 yielding capabilities at this point then?

.... snip ...

Or do BD fans have another significant wait ahead of them (for the best Warner titles, most-advanced titles) while Sony struggles to get BD-50 yields produced at low-cost/very high ratios/quick turn-around and bring a fully-functional/very easy new authoring system to the forefront?

Looks to me like you ask a question whose answer you have already decided.

Warner's intentions seem honest, fair, and noble - but will that change their preference to release more of their best stuff on HD DVD (any time soon) - if and when it is so much easier/cheaper to create or produce such stuff on it instead of BD?

What evidence do you have that it is cheaper or easier to produce HD DVD discs? You ask a question, assume an answer and then respond as if your answer was true.

/carmi

^^^So what does this mean?

It means exactly what it says: Warner made this decision for their own reasons with out being pushed into it by the BDA.


That Harry Potter and Matrix were just delayed for whatever reason - and that we could actually see them announced for Q1 on HD DVD by Warner at CES?

I will be surprised if Harry Potter is released in Q1.

/carmi

Without any inside information we can also guess that they were delayed to be included in a box set(both), or to be "saved" as part of a lead in to the next Movie's release in June/July...which would not give us Harry Potter in Q1...
We most certainly could have that as a guess too!! :) I just hope they don't put it in a box with the other 3 and make us buy the whole box. :)

We most certainly could have that as a guess too!! :) I just hope they don't put it in a box with the other 3 and make us buy the whole box. :)

I hope they do put it in a box like they did with MI3 that could be taken out of. I want all 4 and I like how you can take them out of the box an store them like all the rest of your cases.

Surely the biggest news here is:

"WHV's objective is to have triple day and date releases for all new theatrical titles on DVD, HD DVD and Blu-ray Disc"

This is a key requirement if your beloved (or behated) high def format wants to succeed as a mainstream format. It makes it so much easier to buy into a HD format. I don't recall a statement like this from a studio before. All these 30GB, 50GB, BD-J, BD-Live discussions are so irrelevant.

From thedigitalbits, of course. Pasted without commentary. ;)


Hi,

Could you please provide the link to the The Digital Bits article?

Thanks.

Larry

This is nothing new. They've been saying they wanted to release titles on both formats at the same time for quite a while now. They have already said that BB and V didn't go on BR because of the interactive feature. This is a non-event.
It still does not say if Titles for HD are being held up until BD-J get functional.
J

This is what I've been saying for at least 3 weeks now. I also posted that a Microsoft VP said as much in the latest WSR. It has to do with the PiP aspect of BD. Of course, people like Plazman continued to believe that WB has some secret "favoring" of HD DVD when the more simple explanation here makes total sense. Of course, the vision of some people here has been clouded by a different MS VP here. Tis a shame, really.

Whatever, some people around here are in a fantasy world.

As to the question of "where's Harry Potter and the Matrix"...think about it. These are BIG catalog titles from WB. BD is/was not ready to provide the "full experience/interactivity" WB wanted, and my GUESS is that the BDA has asked WB to hold those titles from HD DVD in North America until the BD versions are able to provide a "comparable" experience so that they can be released simultaneously (or as close to simultanesously as possible).

Now, I'm sure some jokers here are going to "hate the BDA" even more now, citing the interactivity delays on BD and "strong-arming from the BDA" as reasons they cannot get their favorite WB titles ASAP on HD DVD. But, I would think they should be asking why WB would comply with such a request...

You can talk about hate or whatever you like, but it's becoming apparent BDA manipulation is resulting in HD-DVD owners having to wait for titles, and simply because BR products and or tools aren't ready (and God knows when they will be). If BR can't handle it, then why is it necessary for HD-DVD owners to have to wait?

To level the playing field? Right, whatever the BDA can possibly do to live up to it's predictions at CES2007 -- yes? To call this "BullS@$t!" completely understates the reality. Naturally, the BR fanboys are applauding -- who would expect anything else? If the only way you have a chance is to weight the dice, then start drilling -- go BR and the BDA (and Sony of course :))! You people are so F$$$ing full of it!

You can talk about hate or whatever you like, but it's becoming apparent BDA manipulation is resulting in HD-DVD owners having to wait for titles, simply because BR products and or tools aren't ready (and God knows when they will be). If BR can't handle it, then why is it necessary for HD-DVD have to wait?

To level the playing field? Right, whatever the BDA can possibly do to live up to it's predictions at CES2007 -- yes? To call this "BullS@@t!" completely understates the reality. Naturally, the BR fanboys are applauding -- who would expect anything else? If the only way you have a chance is to weight the dice, then start drilling -- go BR and the BDA (and Sony of course:))!

Like Talk mentioned before this is entirely a Warner decision. I agree it is unfair to hold up titles when Toshiba really needs some right now, but that is what Warner has decided to do not the BDA or Sony. If the BDA and/or Sony had any influence on Warner they would've had their exclusivity by now and they never would have let "Total HD" get past the planning phase.

Like Talk mentioned before this is entirely a Warner decision. I agree it is unfair to hold up titles when Toshiba really needs some right now, but that is what Warner has decided to do not the BDA or Sony. If the BDA and/or Sony had any influence on Warner they would've had their exclusivity by now and they never would have let "Total HD" get past the planning phase.

I've read many a comment by Talk, and I wouldn't give his impartially (or absolute integrity) any votes of confidence at all.

True, it could be 100% Warner, but that simply isn't at all obvious. If this truly has absolutely nothing to do with the BDA and its members, then there's no question I'll be owing an apology. It just has the appearance of manipulation to me!

The whole thing reeks. Warner had a hand in starting this war and was releasing HD DVD titles since launch without holding them back and waiting for Blu Ray to get to market. They must have been prepared to face down a PS3 system that was going to sell millions in the first few months because that was the prevailing wisdom.

So the PS3 hits, and is a near total bust compared to what the BDA expected sales wise, and also a much less formidable weapon than HD DVD proponents were expecting to battle.

So with the BDA in a weakened state due to lagging stand alone player sales and PS3 sales that were off the radar, why would Warner suddenly change their policy and cease releasing their big titles on HD DVD?

Possibly it’s because they want to sell Total HD to the world.

Sony is probably fine with that idea at this point because it will stall and weaken HD DVD in the marketplace, so they won't throw up any legal roadblocks to Total HD even if they could.

The longer this drags on, the less I care for Warner as a company. They may have had this Total HD plan on the backburner from the beginning which would explain why they heavily backed HD DVD at the start, but hit the brakes when the PS3 underperformed so badly and HD DVD was really taking off.

I don't think they are lying when they state they want parity. It's what is best for them and Total HD, but the customers will get screwed on all sides as the war drags on and on and on.

The BDA can't even begin to make such a request - it would be a gross anti-trust violation, something the member companies take very seriously (a lawyer starts every meeting by reminding those present of the responsibilities anti-trust laws dictate).Sorry, but since when does Sony follow laws?

Sorry, but since when does Sony follow laws?
Sorry, did TalkStr8t mention Sony? He said the BDA. ;)

I could just be as "unfair" by mentioning that certain software company insisting that what it built-in to its software is not anti-competitive but for the good of consumer's overall experience.


fuad

I am starting to hate Warner this year.

First the advent of TotalHD and now kicking Joss Whedon off the Wonder Woman project. WTF is up with those randoms that work there.

I am starting to hate Warner this year.

First the advent of TotalHD and now kicking Joss Whedon off the Wonder Woman project. WTF is up with those randoms that work there.

Plus banning Cjplay from posting here.

I am starting to hate Warner this year.

First the advent of TotalHD and now kicking Joss Whedon off the Wonder Woman project. WTF is up with those randoms that work there.

They kicked Joss off the Wonder Woman project??? Are they INSANE???
I'm starting to dislike Warner too.
J

So the PS3 hits, and is a near total bust compared to what the BDA expected...

Whatever the case with the BDA (haven't seen any quotes myself), it certainly seems that the PS3 exceeded Warners expectations though:

Speaking at the Credit Suisse media and telecom conference in New York, he (Parsons) said referring to Blu-ray on PS3, "Do I think that the game console platform is really going to drive the conversion? I don't think so. People get those things to play games, not watch movies."

Since PS3's launch, BD is enjoying a sales lead on HD DVD, and Warner titles that are available, are selling well. Obviously... this can't go unnoticed by Warner.

The original post is from over a month ago. This is old information.

I think many of us are waiting on a new statement from Warner which is supposed to be coming this week.

This is nothing new. They've been saying they wanted to release titles on both formats at the same time for quite a while now. They have already said that BB and V didn't go on BR because of the interactive feature. This is a non-event.
It still does not say if Titles for HD are being held up until BD-J get functional.
J
But this does - http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=796592

Because if Bluray titles are being held up by BDJ, then their new policy stated here would mean that HD DVDs are being held back too.

I think that Warner did what they thought was fair, originally, probably not realizing that BDJ would be causing this trouble today.

We have just gotten word that they will be sending out a reply to all the folks who sent emails to them about the issue.

So I, for one, am definitely VERY appreciative of them taking the time to recognize our concern and to reply to us also. They should be commended for this and also for the support they have given HD DVD.

Thanks Warner! :)

We have just gotten word that they will be sending out a reply to all the folks who sent emails to them about the issue.

So I, for one, am definitely VERY appreciative of them taking the time to recognize our concern and to reply to us also. They should be commended for this and also for the support they have given HD DVD.

Thanks Warner! :)
It would be nice if someone posted their response here. I didn't get one. I'm getting real tired of the wait and the games.

J

...

Since PS3's launch, BD is enjoying a sales lead on HD DVD, and Warner titles that are available, are selling well. Obviously... this can't go unnoticed by Warner.


According to some sales numbers for 'real' BR players from CE manufacturers combined sold as much as the total HD DVD players sold by Toshiba.

Currently there is/was a small lead early january, HD DVD took back the lead 3d week. Don't now the current sales estimates.
In total disk sales to date it's about even so far.

This can only lead to the conclusion that the PS3 impact on BR disk sales are not that big.

According to some sales numbers for 'real' BR players from CE manufacturers combined sold as much as the total HD DVD players sold by Toshiba.

Currently there is/was a small lead early january, HD DVD took back the lead 3d week.Where did you get that?
Nielson's numbers for first 2 weeks didn't include combos, so the third week's numbers do not give any indication whether HD-DVD outsold BD in that week or not. They didn't report the corrected numbers for the first two weeks otherwise we would have re-calculated the weekly numbers/ratio.

What we can deduce is that BD's performance for those first two weeks would not look as impressive as it looked with numbers without combos; but we cannot deduce any more than that.

Don't now the current sales estimates.
In total disk sales to date it's about even so far.

This can only lead to the conclusion that the PS3 impact on BR disk sales are not that big.PS3 impact is actually quite big -- so much that HMM says (to Grubert) they think BD sells since inception may overtake HD-DVD this month. That will be a big turn-around, I would say. We will see. YTD is already a big turn-around for BD already.

I don't dispute these sales numbers as they can fall in favor of both camps anytime at this stage.

My point is that sales for CE player are considered about even. It looks to me that the PS3 affect so far is overrated as there as as many BR CE players as HD DVD players sold.

If the januari numbers are as the are than PS3 related disk sales constitute about 1/3 of BR disk sales. This is surprisingly low as there are supossed to be 5..10x more PS3 sold than BR ce players. (Assuming equal attach rates for HDDVD, BR players and PS3)

If combo's where not counted then the situation so far for HD DVD could have looked better.

Where did you get that?
Nielson's numbers for first 2 weeks didn't include combos, so the third week's numbers do not give any indication whether HD-DVD outsold BD in that week or not. They didn't report the corrected numbers for the first two weeks otherwise we would have re-calculated the weekly numbers/ratio.

What we can deduce is that BD's performance for those first two weeks would not look as impressive as it looked with numbers without combos; but we cannot deduce any more than that.

PS3 impact is actually quite big -- so much that HMM says (to Grubert) they think BD sells since inception may overtake HD-DVD this month. That will be a big turn-around, I would say. We will see. YTD is already a big turn-around for BD already.

I agree. The PS3 is a big part of the BD success. The have put 5x as many BD hardware as HD DVD and that is a huge factor.

I don't dispute these sales numbers as they can fall in favor of both camps anytime at this stage.I agree with this. Too early; too small a sample.

My point is that sales for CE player are considered about even. It looks to me that the PS3 affect so far is overrated as there as as many BR CE players as HD DVD players sold.

If the januari numbers are as the are than PS3 related disk sales constitute about 1/3 of BR disk sales. This is surprisingly low as there are supossed to be 5..10x more PS3 sold than BR ce players. (Assuming equal attach rates for HDDVD, BR players and PS3)

If combo's where not counted then the situation so far for HD DVD could have looked better.Many people argued that Xbox360 add-on will nullify effect of PS3. Most discounted PS3. The numbers we have so far indicate otherwise. That's all I would like to point out.

I am not really too much interested in attach rates -- i.e., I don't care what percentage of PS3 buyers buy BD discs. It is almost impossible to calculate. Some people said it will be <5%, some said 20%, etc. What I care about are the final numbers. If 90% of the PS3 buyers don't buy discs, but the 10% of the buyers buy a lot to reverse the trend (as we have seen so far), then I think Sony and BDA would be happy! :)

I agree. The PS3 is a big part of the BD success. The[y] have put 5x as many BD hardware as HD DVD and that is a huge factor.
That is what is determining the bottom line, isn't it? And number of titles.



---[not that you are implying this, but...]
If, because of such a big number of PS3s, the attach rate numbers come out to be very low, it is just a math exercise. It doesn't change the situation much if BD continues to outsell HD-DVD! :)

I guess, that is the idea of a Trojan Horse. Looks like it is working.


I think this is OT for this thread. Maybe we should talk about this in the Nielsen/Videoscan thread.

I think there are BS numbers being tossed around by the BDA.

So far we have the Videoscan numbers which were debunked, and now we have a misleading report claiming "percentages" of stand alone players are roughly even (offering no hard totals of any player sales, calling into question how those percentages were calculated.)

This contradicts every other piece of relevant data, including a poll here on AVS with nearly 2,000 respondents which showed HD DVD stand alone players outnumbering BD stand alone players by 3:1.

HD DVD owners (including Xbox HD DVD bundles)
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=768075

Blu-ray owners (including PS3 movie watchers)
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=768087

I have a VERY hard time wrapping my head around the idea that a poll here at AVS could be anywhere near that inaccurate when it comes to bleeding niche CE products like stand alone Blu Ray and HD DVD players.

As for Warner looking at the PS3 as a success, that makes no sense. Every single analyst's best guess predicted that the PS3 would have a much stronger launch. When Warner got into the HD DVD game, I don't think Sony had even announced the pricing of the PS3, which was the big wet blanket. Before that people were expecting even higher numbers of PS3 systems to be sold.

Then the PS3 launches and the Media Create and NPD numbers (actual totals, not percentages) show up, and they are on the extreme side of low considering the PS3 was supposed to be another PS2 by nearly everyone's estimation.

It's then that they begin to stall their output of big HD DVD titles. Was it because HD DVD had so much momentum behind it?

Warner shifted their support bias toward BRD only when it appeared to be in distress and truly in danger of losing the format war. The only explanation I can come up with is that they don’t want HD DVD or BRD to win, but they want to prolong this war using their influence to achieve market parity so that their own TotalHD design will become the industry standard. The BDA probably doesn’t care at this point because had Warner kept cranking out the big releases on HD DVD then BRD would be in serious jeopardy.

I hope I am wrong and Warner ditches the idea of Total HD and starts releasing all of the HD DVD titles they are holding back (including the already pressed USA Harry Potter HD DVDs that they shipped and released in another region.) The whole concept of a format neutral studio holding back content so that the one format can ‘catch up’ or get their technology ironed out is contradictory to the word “neutral”.

They are hurting HD DVD an helping BRD by stalling. That is not being format neutral, it is an agenda. I expect the BDA to do all it can to stall the adoption of the requisite BD-J tools as long as Warner adheres to their newly stated policy.

So, basically, HD-DVD owners and format neutral owners get to wait for some A-list titles because the BDA made a poor decision in choosing their interactive implementation.

As a soon-to-be member of the neutral camp, this frustrates me greatly....not to sound cold, but I say go ahead and release the HD-DVDs and let Blu only folks take it up with the BDA for their flawed decision making. They'll be on Blu eventually, but why make HD owners wait for BD's mistakes in the meantime?

[QUOTE=Sean_O]I think there are BS numbers being tossed around by the BDA...[QUOTE]

Yawn ... please present some "science" or "facts" into this discussion. I no longer give a "rats ass" about your opinion. Links, please?

I think there are BS numbers being tossed around by the BDA.Oooh, this will be fun.

So far we have the Videoscan numbers which were debunkedReally? Where were they debunked?

and now we have a misleading report claiming "percentages" of stand alone players are roughly even (offering no hard totals of any player sales, calling into question how those percentages were calculated.) Still no evidence...

This contradicts every other piece of relevant data, including a poll here on AVS with nearly 2,000 respondents which showed HD DVD stand alone players outnumbering BD stand alone players by 3:1. The hilarity of comparing an internet poll on a message board with actual sales figures from an established, long-standing source talking to sellers instead of fanboys is astounding.

I have a VERY hard time wrapping my head around the idea that a poll here at AVS could be anywhere near that inaccurate when it comes to bleeding niche CE products like stand alone Blu Ray and HD DVD players.Again, where have you heard the words "internet", "message board", and "poll" being synonymous with accurate reporting and data?

Then the PS3 launches and the Media Create and NPD numbers (actual totals, not percentages) show up, and they are on the extreme side of low considering the PS3 was supposed to be another PS2 by nearly everyone's estimation. "Extreme side of low"? Any evidence to back that up? And considering that the PS3 was 1.5x-2x the price, I don't think very many analysts were looking for PS2 numbers at launch. But if you can dig up, say 3, you might get a prize.

Warner shifted their support bias toward BRD only when it appeared to be in distress and truly in danger of losing the format war. Yeah right. Warner was one of the driving forces behind DVD and has been a big supporter of Toshiba over the last decade

The only explanation I can come up with is that they don’t want HD DVD or BRD to win, but they want to prolong this war using their influence to achieve market parity so that their own TotalHD design will become the industry standard.Except that they stated they're not issuing license fees for THD.

The whole concept of a format neutral studio holding back content so that the one format can ‘catch up’ or get their technology ironed out is contradictory to the word “neutral”. Or, you know, ensuring parity is the exact meaning of the word "neutral.

so again....are all these "catch up" movies that had problems on HD-DVD (noise reduction filter on or whatever) going to have the same problems on Blu Ray?

Oooh, this will be fun.

Really? Where were they debunked?
.

You may have heard, the numbers for weeks one and two were wrong because they forgot to include HD combo disc in the tabulation.

Someone complained about my congratulations post? I don't know what happened to it..

Anyway, I would really like to take my hat off to Warner now that they have said they have gotten everyone's emails and will be replying.

It shows that they have a lot of respect for their customers to be so responsive.

Regardless of what the response is, I would like to show my appreciation and respect for Warner for the support they are giving BOTH formats, and hope that they will release to both formats when material is ready, and not delay either format for the other.

Hats off to Warner for responding. And hats off to those who emailed them - you have been heard.

You may have heard, the numbers for weeks one and two were wrong because they forgot to include HD combo disc in the tabulation.Yet the new numbers with combos still show a 2:1 ratio YTD.

Really? Where were they debunked?


Look that thread over again. It's not possible to have the kind of swing they were suggesting. You did see that HD DVD was back on top the following week? With numbers that made it impossible for the previous two weeks to be accurate. The lack of including combo discs in the tally has been suggested as a likely cause, as the numbers denoted inclusion of combo discs in the week that HD DVD came out ahead. That still does not change the fact that the numbers don't work no matter how you add them up. They are suspicious, which even strong proponents of the BD side have agreed with.

Still no evidence...

Ironic, because that was exactly my point. There is no evidence to support the percentages given. No totals for any stand alone players were given, none. There is zero evidence showing how those percentages were calculated. This is supposedly coming from NPD, who are typically fond of providing actual totals instead of playing the percentage game. You know who has been using percentages a whole lot in their latest press releases? It’s Sony. The NPD numbers for the PS3 have not been in their favor, and they have played the percentage game to put a little shine on it.

Anyone who follows the videogame industry and has kept pace with the latest press out of the Sony camp should know exactly what I am talking about, even if they don’t like it.

So I also find it curious and contradictory that you claim to want evidence yet you rush in here to defend the BDA for running a report which hides any hard evidence that would support their claims.

The hilarity of comparing an internet poll on a message board with actual sales figures from an established, long-standing source talking to sellers instead of fanboys is astounding.


This one says a lot about you. First of all, as noted, there are no "actual" sales totals in that sketchy report. NPD is established and respected, and you will not get any argument there from me. I suspect something had been misrepresented here, or else we would see the actual totals of hardware moved, as would be typical of an NPD report. NPD is not known for hiding numbers, which makes this report very suspect. We have been over that enough.

If you don’t like the polls here at AVS, feel free to comb through and disqualify the votes on both sides from those whom you accuse of being “fanboys” (you can see each voter’s identity) and then see if it changes the overall ratios. I voted in that poll… I guess I am a fanboy. Did you vote on that poll? Are you a fanboy because you visit the AVS? Are we all fanboys now?

AVS forum members would probably be the single most accurate sample group with which to conduct polls concerning early adopters of niche audio video entertainment hardware. If there are a few trolls and “fanboys” skewing the totals, it’ not going to be enough to cause the sort of massive variance being suggested.

On one side we have a questionable, totals hiding, no telling how they added it all up percentage based report that shows everything even. On the other side we have a real world poll of the most AV-centric and generally techno savvy group of people anywhere which shows a 3:1 ratio in favor of HD DVD stand alone hardware. And unlike that report, each and every vote here at AVS is backed up with being able to see who voted for it. So tell me again which set of data is more credible?

Again, where have you heard the words "internet", "message board", and "poll" being synonymous with accurate reporting and data?

Get over it. This is not some anonymous poll conducted on a site populated by AV casuals. If you can not yet see the difference then I have to question exactly what in your mind constitutes a fair and accurate poll, or representation of the facts?

"Extreme side of low"? Any evidence to back that up? And considering that the PS3 was 1.5x-2x the price, I don't think very many analysts were looking for PS2 numbers at launch. But if you can dig up, say 3, you might get a prize.

*Sigh*

January 18, 2006: http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=14132
This was considered the most pessimistic estimate of any analyst at the time, and in the end his total sales predicted were off by about half, on the high side.
Pacific Crest Securities analyst Even Wilson has predicted that Sony's PlayStation 3 will launch in November in North America, preceded by a summer launch in Japan and followed by a March 2007 European launch. ----
He believes that the PS3 will launch with a million units in Japan in summer, with similar volumes seen at the US launch in November, and presumably a similar number again when the system arrives in the European market in March.
The numbers he predicts are better than those Microsoft achieved with the Xbox 360 this Christmas, when a simultaneous global launch with just 1.3 million units of the console left retail in both North America and Europe unable to fulfil pre-orders for the system.
However, the shipments would still be small by comparison with likely demand for the PS3, and if Wilson's "most likely scenario" is correct, Sony would be under immense pressure to keep a steady supply of the PS3 into the market post-launch.
2 million predicted, about one million actually sold. Next.

January 27, 2006: http://www.gamespot.com/news/6143288.html Daiwa Institute of Research, Japan.
Defibaugh and Maeda both think the PlayStation 3 will have half of the market in the worldwide next-generation console war by the end of 2006, followed by the Xbox 360 at 30 percent, and the Revolution at 20 percent.
Whoops! Half of the market… that would be about what… 7 million? Hey, they were only off by about 600%

September 5, 2006: http://www.qj.net/Analysts-Downgrade-Predictions-on-the-PS3/pg/49/aid/64737

Wedbush Morgan securities, one of the largest private, independent brokerage firms in United States (according to their website), downgraded their predictions for PS3 sales in 2006 from 3 million to about 2.3 million.

That’s three. There are many more, but I’ll leave it to you to do your homework from here on. Here is a bonus link. This guy is no analyst, but I think many people will get a kick out of his comments none the less.
January 19, 2006: http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=14159
Andy Parsons, senior vice president of Pioneer Electronics, has told the media that he expects between four and seven million units of the PlayStation 3 to ship worldwide by the end of 2006, representing an "explosion" for Blu-Ray players.
Parsons' comments come in the wake of projections earlier this week from Pacific Crest Securities analyst Even Wilson, who predicted a Japanese launch in summer, followed by November in the United States and March in Europe - with just a million units available for launch in each territory.
That outlook is far more pessimistic than Parsons', and suggests that less than three million units of the PS3 could ship worldwide by the end of 2006. However, publisher sources have indicated in recent weeks that they believe the PS3 will launch in Europe before the end of the year, suggesting that Parsons' figures could be the more accurate of the two.
I guess Pioneer Parson’s predictions (or misleading of the press) turned out to be less accurate. Sweet vindication for the lowball analyst who still overshot with his PS3 sales predictions by 50%. 
Yeah right. Warner was one of the driving forces behind DVD and has been a big supporter of Toshiba over the last decade
Again, thank you for making my point even more clear. Warner got into this war to support HD DVD in the face of what 90%+ of the industry thought would be a hardware juggernaut in the PS3 and Blu Ray. As Warner has historically fought at the side of HD DVD, why would they change course when the PS3 launched without anywhere near the strength they had likely anticipated? The only explanation can be that they do not want HD DVD to win, but have other interests to serve.
Except that they stated they're not issuing license fees for THD.
I have read that myself. Do you really think that Warner would be doing what they are, or would have even spent the time and resources developing and pushing TotalHD if they stood to gain absolutely nothing from it? Licensing fees are not the only way the manufacturer of a proprietary media can collect.

Or, you know, ensuring parity is the exact meaning of the word "neutral.
Then, you know, put the software out now instead of holding it back and damaging one format in the marketplace. And, you know, if that sort of behavior is neutral in you eyes, then what do you call it when Warner releases Harry Potter outside of the US, and also postures to release some of their biggest titles ahead of schedule elsewhere in the world?
We may have to import our copies of The Matrix and Harry Potter if we want them before Blu Ray gets their act together, or if we have no desire to buy them on Total HD discs.
Now please, go and parse someone else’s posts. If you disagree just say so, don’t try to belittle me again.

now we have a misleading report claiming "percentages" of stand alone players are roughly even (offering no hard totals of any player sales, calling into question how those percentages were calculated.) There is no evidence to support the percentages given. No totals for any stand alone players were given, none. There is zero evidence showing how those percentages were calculated. This is supposedly coming from NPD, who are typically fond of providing actual totals instead of playing the percentage game.Pay your money to NPD and I'm sure they'll be happy to share specific numbers. This is standard procedure in the analyst community - they release high-level data for free to call attention to their report, and those who subscribe get access to the raw data.
This contradicts every other piece of relevant data, including a poll here on AVS with nearly 2,000 respondents which showed HD DVD stand alone players outnumbering BD stand alone players by 3:1. I have a VERY hard time wrapping my head around the idea that a poll here at AVS could be anywhere near that inaccurate when it comes to bleeding niche CE products like stand alone Blu Ray and HD DVD players.
Ridiculous. In no way does AVS Forum constitute a statistically valid population. For instance, Amir's presence here is likely to draw a disproportionate number of HD DVD fans who like to have their purchase decision validated. Meanwhile a not-insignificant number of posters here who have largely migrated to the forums at Blu-ray.com so as to avoid the noise level here. As a result you can't possibly suggest that a self-selected poll from a non-random population can even begin to compare in validity to that of a respected market analyst using hard numbers.
Warner shifted their support bias toward BRD only when it appeared to be in distress and truly in danger of losing the format war. The only explanation I can come up with is that they don’t want HD DVD or BRD to win, but they want to prolong this war using their influence to achieve market parity so that their own TotalHD design will become the industry standard.Also ridiculous. TotalHD is simply the mechanism which Warner thinks is the best way to deal with the format war. It isn't a new format, and by any measure it costs Warner more to release a TotalHD disc than it would to release a single disc of either format.
The BDA probably doesn’t care at this point because had Warner kept cranking out the big releases on HD DVD then BRD would be in serious jeopardy. Oh, yes, I'm sure Warner's releases would put Disney's, Fox's, Sony's, and Lionsgate's to shame. Blu-ray doesn't stand a chance if Warner rolls out the big guns exclusively for HD DVD.

- Talk

Oh, yes, I'm sure Warner's releases would put Disney's, Fox's, Sony's, and Lionsgate's to shame. Blu-ray doesn't stand a chance if Warner rolls out the big guns exclusively for HD DVD.

I sincerely hope that wasn't sarcasm.

If it was I'm sure they would be thrilled at your enthusiam for their support of your format.

I am curious now. What are products is NPD reporting on percentages without volume data?

IMO Warner should just release all the IME movies as they come along to HD DVD!
Why? Should HD DVD customers have to suffer not be able to enjoy the movies to be released because of an incomplete formats problems.
BD said It was unfair last year but that's not Warners fault is it?
Why Is Warner letting BD stand in the way of HD DVD sales???

I say tough to BD for not getting their product complete for these releases.

I sincerely hope that wasn't sarcasm.

If it was I'm sure they would be thrilled at your enthusiam for their support of your format.Yes, it was sarcasm. My point wasn't to denigrate Warner's titles, but to point out the fact that no one studio can make up for three major plus one slightly-less-major exclusive studios.

Pay your money to NPD and I'm sure they'll be happy to share specific numbers. This is standard procedure in the analyst community - they release high-level data for free to call attention to their report, and those who subscribe get access to the raw data.
Ridiculous. In no way does AVS Forum constitute a statistically valid population. For instance, Amir's presence here is likely to draw a disproportionate number of HD DVD fans who like to have their purchase decision validated. Meanwhile a not-insignificant number of posters here who have largely migrated to the forums at Blu-ray.com so as to avoid the noise level here. As a result you can't possibly suggest that a self-selected poll from a non-random population can even begin to compare in validity to that of a respected market analyst using hard numbers.
Also ridiculous. TotalHD is simply the mechanism which Warner thinks is the best way to deal with the format war. It isn't a new format, and by any measure it costs Warner more to release a TotalHD disc than it would to release a single disc of either format.
Oh, yes, I'm sure Warner's releases would put Disney's, Fox's, Sony's, and Lionsgate's to shame. Blu-ray doesn't stand a chance if Warner rolls out the big guns exclusively for HD DVD.

- Talk

In no way does AVS Forum constitute a statistically valid population.
That sentence has no real meaning. While each word individually means something, together they mean nothing. Wth is a "statistically valid population"? How can a population not be statistically valid? Anyway...

If instead of "population" you meant "sample" and instead of "statistically valid" you mean "representative," then I understand what your saying, but would point out the fact that NPD data is modeled, and therefore it's conclusions are not based on representative samples either. Since we don't know what their model is, we don't know how accurate it is.

But more than that, by reading what you just wrote one would never know that Nielson just released POS sales data comparing HD DVD to BD, and forgot to include the combo's in HD DVD sales. From the way you describe things, we should all just defer to the authority of those organizations and accept their summaries and studies as gospel. We shouldn't have questioned why the numbers conflicted.

But of course, that would be ridiculous. These organizations make mistakes all the time. That's not to say we shouldn't ever believe their results, but if their data conflicts with several other data points, it should make us skeptical. We should want more evidence. This information should be accepted provisionally, not absolutely.

I already posted this in the HD DVD Software forum, but this is the response I got from Warner today:

First of all, thank you for your support of Warner Bros. and for our films in the new HD DVD format, as well as the existing SD DVD format. As you have pointed out in your note, there have recently been on-line discussions claiming that Warner Home Video is holding titles back from the marketplace in the HD DVD format due to plans in BD, and that this is now a company policy. Regardless of the source of this information, it is not true.

Warner Home Video is releasing titles in both high definition formats, and where possible we try to release a title simultaneously in both formats. But this is not always the case, and in fact since we released our first titles in April, 2006 there have been some titles that have been released in HD DVD before BD, and some that have been released in BD before HD DVD.

There are many factors that determine the timing for the release of a motion picture in DVD, HD DVD, and BD. We currently have released more titles in HD DVD than any other studio, and we are anticipating a very exciting schedule for the rest of 2007. In the month of January 2007, we released 4 new titles in HD DVD.

We hope you will enjoy our upcoming HD DVD releases, including two of our best movies from last year (and both recognized with multiple Academy Award nominations), THE DEPARTED and HAPPY FEET, which will be released in February and March 2007, respectively.

We also expect to announce shortly some title plans for April and May. The titles will be quite a thrill for all HD DVD owners and supporters.

Best regards.

Yes, it was sarcasm. My point wasn't to denigrate Warner's titles, but to point out the fact that no one studio can make up for three major plus one slightly-less-major exclusive studios.
lol,bd may have more studios and titles out but wheres all the great titles from those studios,they may have more ,but the titles suck on bd

I already posted this in the HD DVD Software forum, but this is the response I got from Warner today:

Very interesting, well done.

If I can paraphrase - the letter starts by stating, essentially, that "holding back HD DVD releases for BD is not a Policy". This is very good, as "policy" was the bit that people were most concerned about - Warner's statement that there is no policy for this is very important.

The last sentence, if you read it carefully, actually says more than one realizes. I look forward to these announcements.

Thank you Warner for your concern and replies! And well done to those who wrote in, also.

Do you have such a low view of your fellow forum brethren that you felt the need to 'paraphrase' a 5 paragragh statement?;)

Do you have such a low view of your fellow forum brethren that you felt the need to 'paraphrase' a 5 paragragh statement?;)

For paraphrase read spin. ;)

Do you have such a low view of your fellow forum brethren that you felt the need to 'paraphrase' a 5 paragragh statement?;)
I'll ignore the obvious intent/goal of a statement such as this... ;)

Sorry mate

It was a joke.

I'm sorry that you're so caught up in this Fake war that you cant see a joke for what it is!

Chill - Watch The Bill

So, any plan on taking out the statement "BD-J Problems Holding Back HD DVDs?!!" from your sig now that it's been proven false by Warner themselves?

So no explanation on titles not being released that were advertised to be released for last spring like Harry Potter and The Matrix :(

Also confirmation that they dont sound like any more announcements are coming for Feb, thanks for the whole 3 movies Warner, I may get one of them :(

I cant see how there excited that they put out 4 movies in January, put out 40 or even 10 then I'll be excited...

So, any plan on taking out the statement "BD-J Problems Holding Back HD DVDs?!!" from your sig now that it's been proven false by Warner themselves?I don't see that letter proving it false. If Warner starts announcing titles for HD DVD with IME for April and/or May, then that might prove it false.

--Darin

So no explanation on titles not being released that were advertised to be released for last spring like Harry Potter and The Matrix :(

Also confirmation that they dont sound like any more announcements are coming for Feb, thanks for the whole 3 movies Warner, I may get one of them :(

I cant see how there excited that they put out 4 movies in January, put out 40 or even 10 then I'll be excited...

The letter isn't much really. All they said was that holding back HD DVDs "due to plans in BD" wasn't "company policy". Which of course, doesn't really say much. That and we should be excited about The Departed and Happy Feet. Weeeee!
I got the e-mail late last night, so I'll respond tonight.
J

I don't see that letter proving it false. If Warner starts announcing titles for HD DVD with IME for April and/or May, then that might prove it false.

--Darin

Ed's quote reads "BD-J Problems Holding Back HD DVDs?!!"

Warner's message reads "[T]here have recently been on-line discussions claiming that Warner Home Video is holding titles back from the marketplace in the HD DVD format due to plans in BD, and that this is now a company policy. Regardless of the source of this information, it is not true."

That sounds like a direct refutation. Now that could just be a CYA from Warner, but until that's proven, he's wrong.

Ed's quote reads "BD-J Problems Holding Back HD DVDs?!!"

Warner's message reads "[T]here have recently been on-line discussions claiming that Warner Home Video is holding titles back from the marketplace in the HD DVD format due to plans in BD, and that this is now a company policy. Regardless of the source of this information, it is not true."

That sounds like a direct refutation. Now that could just be a CYA from Warner, but until that's proven, he's wrong.I explained my position over here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9702255&&#post9702255

Basically, they make it sound like a direct refutation in the first paragraph and then immediately turn to saying:
Warner Home Video is releasing titles in both high definition formats, and where possible we try to release a title simultaneously in both formats.Now, if they release things with IME on HD DVD and nothing similar on Blu-ray then it will support that they weren't holding back, but if they do hold some titles back until they can release simultaneously in both with PiP, then that will be consistent with what the letter says in the 2nd paragraph. As they say, it isn't always the case, but can be the case. But their proof is that is based on past things and nobody was claiming that things like "Batman Begins" got held up for Blu-ray. The question was about what they did with "Harry Potter" and the future. We'll see what Warner does.

--Darin

I don't see that letter proving it false. If Warner starts announcing titles for HD DVD with IME for April and/or May, then that might prove it false.

--Darin
Every time I think I have you pegged, you surprise me! :)

Got my email today. It was phrased slightly differently, but is (mildly) encouraging.

Yes, I know they have to be very careful in what they say, but they do seem to refute the charge of holding back HD DVD because of BD, saying that rumors suggested it was "company policy. Regardless of the source of this information, it is not true."

Let's hope! :o

Ed's quote reads "BD-J Problems Holding Back HD DVDs?!!"

Warner's message reads "[T]here have recently been on-line discussions claiming that Warner Home Video is holding titles back from the marketplace in the HD DVD format due to plans in BD, and that this is now a company policy. Regardless of the source of this information, it is not true."

That sounds like a direct refutation. Now that could just be a CYA from Warner, but until that's proven, he's wrong.
Hi JB.

First - In relation to this, kindly read the title of this thread: "Warner's release policy and 'catching up' explained"... As you know this thread was started by Grubert in December or so. So certainly, everyone had reason to believe it was policy...

Second - Grubert also started a thread recently about BDJ problems being responsibly for "lots" of BD releases being delayed...

Third - Given that #1 PLUS #2 equal the basis of our perfectly reasonable concerns that BDJ delays were causing delays to HD DVD titles, I see no reason to change the title of that thread.

Fourth - As I have highlighted, Warner's excellent response seems to indicate that this is NOT an overiding policy decision - which is VERY encouraging to hear. They say that "if possible" they will release both at the same time, but leave room to release one at a time if they have to.

Fifth - They direct our attention to their April/May schedule as evidence of what they can do, and of there not being a policy.

Sixth - We are ALL looking forward to seeing these! :) Not much else we can say till then we hear... Once we see these releases we will hopefully see that no HD DVD titles are being held up for BD versions (or visa versa).

All the letter said was that it wasn't company policy. They never said they didn't do it, or that they wouldn't do it in the future.
They direct our attention to their April/May schedule as evidence of what they can do,
Which is what exactly? A few penguincentric movies?
I replied with a few more questions, so we'll see if they reply back.
Lots of HD disappointment...
J

The Warner letter is a joke. Doesn't provide any substantive information. It's just standard form letter marketing spin.

The Warner letter is a joke. Doesn't provide any substantive information. It's just standard form letter marketing spin.
I hear you, but I'm not sure that that is the case.

I think that Warner has to be very careful what they say - but I would give them the benefit of the doubt on this one. They responded very quickly and they have hinted very strongly that they are "uncoupling" HD from BD releases and will be releasing some "key" titles in April/May.

I think they have carefully chosen the wording in their letter to reflect this, so I would recommend that we wait a couple of weeks to see what they announce for this period.

Believe me, most people here know that I would be the first to make noise if a see a problem.

I truly believe that they have said something between the lines here and they would like us to wait and judge these coming announcements on their merits.

I think we may just have to sit tight for now...

It's given as the sole reason that the Blu-Ray guys don't have some of Warner's best relesese to date.

Indeed. It's also the reason I have half of the HDDVD titles that I do. Generally, my Paramount releases have gone Blu-ray to availability concerns (when I wanted Aeon Flux and Sahara, BB had the BD's but not the HDDVDs, for example). Batman Begins I got tired of waiting for the BD to compare. I doubt I'll miss anything in any case and the HDDVD is certainly excellent quality. Same with V for Vendetta and We Were Soldiers.