Test In-progress: Nine Wilsonart Colors

[pjohnston007]

Objective: Test nine Wilsonart colors to determine legitimate colors (other than DW and FG) for HT.

Situation:
InFocus IN72 in basement (98% controlled lighting), projecting onto a crappy wall (renting a house, and cannot redo the wall). Projecting a 54x95" (109" diagonal) image and throwing from about 17 feet, if I remember correctly. Running the IN72 in economode or whisper mode.

I want a great INEXPENSIVE screen and am totally turned on by the possibility of using a laminate.

Between Wilsonart sending me my six free samples and the local Lowe's, I have nine different laminates to test. I arranged them in this layout for most of my pictures and screenshots. Camera is a Nikon 8400 (8.0 Megapixels) in Manual mode and set to capture at 2.0 Megapixels (reduce file size and allowing me to present pictures without resizing / compressing). I've posted pictures that most resemble what I see with my eyes.

Attempting to use this to show nine Wilsonart laminate samples as I put them through their paces in a gamut of movies and lighting situations.

Here's the layout throughout most of the testing:
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q214/unMourned/Test1/Layout.jpg

Here's a "normal" daylight photo that fairly accurately reproduces the color my eyes see:
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q214/unMourned/Test1/DSCN2297.jpg

Mounted on the wall, lights full on, with flash:
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q214/unMourned/Test1/DSCN2274.jpg

Closeup of Designer White (45-degree angle to show texture):
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q214/unMourned/Test1/DSCN2289.jpg


More soon...

Please PM me with any comments.

Thanks...

[pjohnston007]

Green rating screen:
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q214/unMourned/Test1/DSCN2247.jpg

Pixar Animation:
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q214/unMourned/Test1/DSCN2251.jpg

Eye closeup (Resident Evil):
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q214/unMourned/Test1/DSCN2266.jpg

Flesh tone:
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q214/unMourned/Test1/DSCN2268.jpg

Right now, Cloud is very interesting and Platinum appears too dark, though I had high hopes for it.

More to follow.

[Clarence]

Look at the gain from that Pearl Silver! Too glossy... notice the -7 suffix.

I'd never guess it based on a color swatch alone, but the side-by-side screenshots really show the glare and gain beyond what a simple RGB/grayscale value can measure.

I did something similar with Formica samples a few years ago... I'll have to search the archives.

High gain doesn't work with CRT due to color shifting from the geometry of having separate tubes for the primary colors, but it'd be fun to try a larger test sample.

I bet it would hotspot pretty bad and have a really narrow viewing cone, but maybe someone with a dPJ could tame it with a poly coat.

[Clarence]

Here are the similar tests I did a few years ago...

http://archive.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=3659217#post3659217

http://crtforum.com/img/wilsonart-laminate-samples.jpg

http://crtforum.com/img/wilsonart-test2.jpg

[pjohnston007]

In response to Clarence's post:

I am specifically running a test of nine different Wilsonart samples to determine the best material for my easy, inexpensive projection surface. I am not necessarily trying anything new or revolutionary--I merely want to post my findings here on the chance it will spark conversation or enlighten anyone OR make anybody's path to DIY HT easier.

Since I have some time between semesters and have a fairly high-MP camera, I thought I'd have some fun playing around with Wilsonart samples and my projector.

Will be somewhat tied-up with Christmas / New Years holidays, but have mounted the nine samples on a sheet of white printer/copier paper. When I get a change, I'll throw them back up on the wall and try for the standard Nemo screenshots, etc.

If you guys have any recommendations please let me know.

-Paul

[pjohnston007]

Great recommendation, tiddler--thank you! I'll pick up some more samples and see what I can put together.

[nate358]

I can also tell you that you will notice a difference between batches. I got 4 samples of DW and there were 3 different shades/sheen to them. 2 were from the same batch... the other 2 were their own batch. They all said D354-60, but under the 1-800 number there is a 5 code digit that I believe is the batch number. Just so you know!

[wbassett]

Paul also take a look at some of the testing in the laminate thread. I'm not saying that to discourage you by no means.

I literally went through hundreds of samples from every major company out there. The best ones were identified and then more indepth testing and specs were gotten on them. For instance two that looked promising was White and Pewter (for a darker gray). After further testing and getting some data both were very bad choices. I also had samples of Frosty White... Now, Platinum and Dove Grey really have my attention and if someone else were to explore and play with those two for a third party type testing and evaluation that would be fantastic.

Both of those have a good color value but as we found out the matte surface on all of the Wilsonart colors is the same. Normally that sounds like a good thing, but what was discovered with Fashion Grey is that the overall gain was due more to the surface specularity, which is what was causing it to hot spot for some. I have no reason to believe we won't encounter the same problem with the other darker gray laminates. A poly top coating settled it down (as well as tamed Silver Screen) but these are darker and may require something extra... I can't say right now though.

Another very open and very interesting area is Formica. I do have color data on the best contenders from Formica, and some even have better (flatter) color characteristics than Wilsonart. The problem is nobody has really jumped on those and done any extensive real world testing. So there is plenty or room to explore and test. Some of your samples though I think you may find are not up to the task. They may work, but not as well as others.

[pjohnston007]

Well, based on my (very) initial opinion...Cloud appears to offer a nice mid-point between FG and DW. It looks to have an initial blue push, but disappears very easily under most picture settings.

I have gone though much of the DIY and laminate-related threads--hadn't seen anyone do a line-up like I'm attempting. I'll go through and see if I can catch it.

I will narrow down the line up of nine to four and present a better review of those four.

I will also get more of the samples to create a "larger" surface for analysis / review.

Thanks again.

[esldude]

I sure am glad you posted this. I was interested in Pearl Silver. Figured it was too glossy. But it looked interesting. Thought it might be brighter. Well it is and how. Too much so. You saved me from ordering a sheet of it.

A big thanks for that.

[pjohnston007]

For those of you who want to jump right to the pictures, follow this link:


All Test Pictures (Photobucket) (http://s137.photobucket.com/albums/q214/unMourned/Test2/)


Update:

After much browsing (both online and at my local Lowe's) I decided to narrow down the field to four materials: Cloud, Fashion Grey, Chargrey Suede (all Wilsonart) and Formica's Gray Stone. I acquired four test / sample pieces and mounted them on a sturdy piece of cardboard along with two reference squares of Wilsonart's Designer White and Pearl Silver.

After testing and close scrutiny of all materials, I believe I am going to order a 5x8 foot section of the Chargrey Suede!

As a reminder: I'm using an InFocus IN72 throwing a 110" diagonal picture from about 17 feet (running in eco mode / silent).

Onto the test pictures!


Here is the layout used in all following pictures:
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q214/unMourned/Test2/Grid.jpg


I am truly interested in the Pearl Silver. On-axis, it reflects like hell but off-axis it represents color very nicely and looks like it would be a GREAT option for an inexpensive screen that truly performs like a multi-thousand-dollar screen--if only they made this color in a Matte!


Here are the colors mounted in overcast sunlight:
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q214/unMourned/Test2/DSCN2621.jpg

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Resident Evil Test Section

Resident Evil: Flesh Tone
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q214/unMourned/Test2/DSCN2563.jpg


Resident Evil: Flesh Tone closeup
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q214/unMourned/Test2/DSCN2561.jpg


Resident Evil: Bed Contrast Test, Lights On
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q214/unMourned/Test2/DSCN2568.jpg


Resident Evil: Bed Contrast Test, Lights Off
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q214/unMourned/Test2/DSCN2567.jpg



Resident Evil: Screen Contrast Test, Lights On
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q214/unMourned/Test2/DSCN2569.jpg



Resident Evil: Screen Contrast Test, Lights Off
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q214/unMourned/Test2/DSCN2570.jpg

[pjohnston007]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Finding Nemo Test Section


Nemo: Ocean off-axis color shift:
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q214/unMourned/Test2/DSCN2605.jpg


Nemo: Dentist's Hand (Flesh Tone):
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q214/unMourned/Test2/DSCN2588.jpg


Nemo: Green test (Tank Slime):
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q214/unMourned/Test2/DSCN2582.jpg


Nemo: Off-Axis (~45 degree) Blue Shift:
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q214/unMourned/Test2/DSCN2581.jpg


Nemo: Blue Ocean "Screen Door" test:
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q214/unMourned/Test2/DSCN2575.jpg

Pixar Screen white / black level:
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q214/unMourned/Test2/DSCN2572.jpg



---------

I am looking forward to your feedback and thoughts. As you can tell from the overcast sunlight picture, Wilsonart's Chargrey Suede is a somewhat mottled color close-up. As soon as you are farther than six feet away, the colors blend together--this mix of colors appear to produce the best color and contrast of any of the other samples I've tested. I cannot wait to order this tomorrow (Monday) and assemble my black velvet-coated frame!!!

[pjohnston007]

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q214/unMourned/Test2/DSCN2708.jpg

[Jedd]

With the lights off Designer White looks a tad better IMO, with the lights on - Chargrey is better.. well as expected from the grey color.
But now I want to see it for myself, so I've just ordered 9 pieces of each (the samples are free anyway :P). Would be interesting to see how it matches against my old MM board.
And I also went ahead and ordered a sample of Sheerweave 4000 and SDX-720, just to see how they stand up against the solid stuff.

[pjohnston007]

Received permission to quote Garry's analysis of Cloud and CgS (frontrunners for my setup):


Paul,
Here's the test results on your Wilsonart colors:

Cloud D391-60
RGB: 201 201 216
Yxy: 59.33 0.3028 0.3125

Chargrey Suede 2902-60
RGB: 207 201 213
Yxy: 60.05 0.3091 0.3161

And one more I picked up that look interesting:

White Suede 2904-60
RGB: 223 213 217
Yxy: 68.16 0.3176 0.3245

Cloud leans toward blue quite heavily, and will not display colors correctly at D65. Too bad, because we need a gray at this lightness. Might work fine if you set your projector to 7500K, but doing this is basically unexplored territory.

Chargrey Suede is fine for color balance, but has a distinct gray/white spatter pattern that I'm afraid would be visible during pans or in bright scenes. It may not be evident in screen tests of small samples, but I'm betting it would be obvious with a full screen. With a lightness of 60, it too would fill the gap between Designer White and Fashion Gray quite nicely, were it not for this potential problem.

White Suede is a bit lighter at 68, and has a very nice color balance. Could be just the thing for those needing just a hint of gray to boost blacks, but may be too light for your application. It also has a bit of the "spatter" effect, but nowhere near as pronounced as Chargrey.

Here's how they line up for color accuracy:

http://home.mchsi.com/~gstoner/pics/watest8.jpg

And here's the lightness, compared to other WA laminates:

designer white 83.12
white suede 68.16
chargrey suede 60.05
cloud 59.33
fashion grey 51.53

I didn't have much time to look at other samples - I just grabbed the ones I needed today. I'll take a closer look later this week, and see if there is anything else in the Chargrey lightness range with a more uniform surface. Let me know if you have any other possibilities, and feel free to ask any questions you may have. I enjoy this stuff - it's a nice break from my usual work!

Garry

[LemurGuy]

what is this "spatter effect" he speaks of? Checked the glossary post and couldn't find it.

[wbassett]

what is this "spatter effect" he speaks of? Checked the glossary post and couldn't find it.
From the closeup pictures it appears to have white and gray spatter throughout the color. I'm not sure if that is what Prof is talking about but it seemed predominate in the pictures. I am sure he will clarify that when he gets on.

[prof55]

From the closeup pictures it appears to have white and gray spatter throughout the color. I'm not sure if that is what Prof is talking about but it seemed predominate in the pictures. I am sure he will clarify that when he gets on.

Yes, that is what I'm describing. There's some more discussion about it here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9351612&&#post9351612

Garry

[mech]

It appears to me that the FG and the formica have better blacks and contrast with the lights on/off. The cloud and chargrey seemed a bit blue but it's tough to tell. Your off axis shot of 'Nemo: Ocean off-axis color shift:' is where I noticed it. White paint on the wall?

mech

[pjohnston007]

It appears to me that the FG and the formica have better blacks and contrast with the lights on/off. The cloud and chargrey seemed a bit blue but it's tough to tell. Your off axis shot of 'Nemo: Ocean off-axis color shift:' is where I noticed it. White paint on the wall?

mech

1) The paint on the wall is a white-yellow-eggshell mix. I try to avoid comparing any of the color slices to the wall (as difficult as that may be) when viewing for purposes of analysis. Paint on wall = bad.

2) In all honesty, I canNOT see any speckling/mottling/spatter pattern when farther than 3-4 feet away with an image on-screen. Despite the close-up picture, the pattern really disappears easily with distance.

3) Blue shift: I really only noticed that with Cloud (and only on certain shots/frames/movies).

- Cloud has a blue push.

- I'd swear that CgS does not.

-pjohnston

[Jedd]

With the lights off Designer White looks a tad better IMO, with the lights on - Chargrey is better.. well as expected from the grey color.
But now I want to see it for myself, so I've just ordered 9 pieces of each (the samples are free anyway :P).
Just a small follow up. I don't remember exactly how I painted my current screen - something base white, pearls and more white, but DW is 95% identical. Most of the time I can't see a change when panning. Other 5% DW is better. Colors are more shiny, but no hotspotting. And it calibrates better. If I to get a screen right now Designer White would be a winner. ($80 vs $30 is really worth it).
Chargrey Suede IMO is horrible. Too hot and face close-ups bring a strong "pox" effect. (I seat about 10 feet away)

[pjohnston007]

I would never ever go with DW because, even in a basement at night with the lights off, I could not get a black out of DW. With even the smallest (15W), indirect light on, DW glows like it's radioactive.

Seriously.

Because I am not into watching everything "in a cave" (and neither is my wife), we were looking for something decidedly darker than DW, but not as dark as FG (because I've not seen it do white).


CgS fits the bill. Awaiting our local Joann Fabric sale and the laminate delivery and I should have something in the way of screenshots up by this coming Thursday.



Chargrey Suede IMO is horrible. Too hot and face close-ups bring a strong "pox" effect. (I seat about 10 feet away)

Oh--and with a ~4x6 test area of CgS, I noticed no such "pox" effect; to the contrary, in fact--CgS was the most accurate flest tone / color reproduction according to both my eyes and my wife's eyes.

I'm not trying to incite any war here, but does anyone think I'd throw down the $80 to implement a piece of crap?

[wbassett]

pjohnson it all comes down to personal preferences. Based on your comments you would not like a white commercial screen either so it's not specifically a DW issue.

We don't have a 'cave' and my projector isn't particularly strong when it comes to CR. Blacks are okay, about as good as an LCD can produce but certainly not a deep dark black. For a white screen with a tested and proven gain it is a very good option for those that do want a white screen.

If you are happy with CgS that's all that matters.

[garyfritz]

Interesting comment ("radioactive glow"). wbassett, how would you say the DW compares to a BO screen for "radioactive" reflection of ambient light? I have a dedicated HT with dark walls so I generally watch my BO screen (with CRT) in a cave environment, but my wife (not a big movie fan but wants to participate occasionally) likes to have some light in the room. A bit of light is better when you watch sports/etc too, but of course max CR and PQ isn't as much of an issue then.

[Jedd]

Oh--and with a ~4x6 test area of CgS, I noticed no such "pox" effect; to the contrary, in fact--CgS was the most accurate flest tone / color reproduction according to both my eyes and my wife's eyes.
I'm not trying to incite any war here, but does anyone think I'd throw down the $80 to implement a piece of crap?
I also have an ambient light (~25W) enough to type and I've tried on a 12"x10" piece. My PJ, as I said, is quite close so I could put a lot of picture there. Maybe it's just my setup - distance, ANSI and angles made it look so bad. But if it works for you - that's the way to go.
(however, if you haven't ordered yet, I'd recommend to double check with the bigger sample. If you build from 3"x5", it is a good idea to leave holes on the outside perimeter)
Peace. :)

[pjohnston007]

Last pictures I shot before I made the decision to order the CgS. I should pick up my 5x8' section on Wednesday, but wanted to post these here to keep people thinking until I can post full screens of CgS in action.

Hockey game shots:

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q214/unMourned/Test2/DSCN2742.jpg
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q214/unMourned/Test2/DSCN2741.jpg
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q214/unMourned/Test2/DSCN2747.jpg

Extreme situation: Full lights on:
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q214/unMourned/Test2/DSCN2719.jpg


See the DW glow (two tiles, upper right):
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q214/unMourned/Test2/DSCN2714.jpg

Again, the DW appears just too bright:
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q214/unMourned/Test2/DSCN2715c.jpg

Ice skating, Hi Def image:
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q214/unMourned/Test2/DSCN2723.jpg

[mech]

I would never ever go with DW because, even in a basement at night with the lights off, I could not get a black out of DW. With even the smallest (15W), indirect light on, DW glows like it's radioactive.
Whoa! That's a pretty strong statement from someone who's only done tests with tiny little sample cards. I can't say I agree or disagree though as I've never seen anything but pics of DW.


Because I am not into watching everything "in a cave" (and neither is my wife), we were looking for something decidedly darker than DW, but not as dark as FG (because I've not seen it do white).

This statement I take issue with. I've posted numerous photos of FG in action. What exactly did you want to see that I did not post? Whites?
Sweater:

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o149/smechman/Poly/PC070073.jpg

White stripes?

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o149/smechman/Poly/PC070033.jpg

Hockey with serious ambient light?

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o149/smechman/Poly/PC070035.jpg

Hockey with lights at about 60%?

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o149/smechman/Poly/PC070036.jpg

Don't get me wrong, I applaud your efforts and hope that CgS works for you. It just seems that you neglected to read the other thread. Then again, maybe you did and you're off blazin' a new trail. I know that when I went and picked up my FG, it was the same day that one user posted that it was hotspotting bad. I was worried. But after putting it up I noticed only a slight bit of it. And than I found tiddler's idea of polying it. I felt kinda like I was blazing my own trail.

Regardless, there are numerous satisfied DW users out there and maybe a smattering of satisfied FG users. And there may be a happy CgS user soon as well...

mech

[LemurGuy]

assuming the CgS does have a visible spatter effect even on a large viewing area from a good distance away could it be abated or at least mitigated with the use of a poly topcoat?

also just a side note, has anyone tried the matte finish of the Pearl Gray (the 60 suffix instead of the 7 PJ used)? In some of the shots it had awesome whites and colors and blacks, but it has the shiny finish on it.

[mech]

assuming the CgS does have a visible spatter effect even on a large viewing area from a good distance away could it be abated or at least mitigated with the use of a poly topcoat?
My uneducated guess? I doubt it.

also just a side note, has anyone tried the matte finish of the Pearl Gray (the 60 suffix instead of the 7 PJ used)? In some of the shots it had awesome whites and colors and blacks, but it has the shiny finish on it.

You know let's step back a bit. You're looking at tiny sample cards. While I think they serve a purpose in what they were designed for, I find it hard to believe that you can draw any conclusions from them. Not to mention a picture of them. I recall back when I poly'd my cut offs of FG and taped them to my unpoly'd FG screen. It was extremely difficult to discern differences between the two. Look here. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9064163&&#post9064163) . Those were like 9" by about 2'. There was an incredible amount of research done in the laminate thread, let's not just throw it by the wayside. Go to that thread and look at all the color analysis done. Then read the threads on neutral grays. By that time you'll start catching on.

To me, the most intriguing thing I've found in this thread is the formica samples. Not to mention pjohnston007's willingness to stray from the beaten path and test something that may or may not be a good screen. I for one am eager to hear his results.

mech

[pjohnston007]

And I feel compelled at this point to state the following:

I have never intended to trash or downplay anyone's DIY efforts or solutions. If anyone feels that I have, I am sorry.

My primary objective in this testing was to find a hang-and-view (laminate) solution that fell somewhere between Wilsonart's Designer White and Fashion Grey. The moment I had the samples in my hand, I had the impression that they were nearly two extremes (that wouldn't work for my setup) on either side of what I was looking for.

I have spent many hours looking at and photographing over 12 samples (both Wilsonart and Formica) using different mounting and lighting conditions. I'm an active Army guy without too many dollars to throw at this HT project, so I need good bang-to-buck ratio. And, since I have broadband and a decent digital camera, why not document my project (analysis?) for others to critique, applaud, ignore...or learn from?

I am, by nature, a guy who doesn't walk a path that others have thoroughly beat down (unless there are land mines in the area). Sure, I could have read the laminates thread, called the local building center store and ordered up a DW or FG solution. Where is the fun or adventure in that?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Okay...I hope that has cleared up a few things about my project.

On a related note, I picked up my 5x8' CgS today!!!!!! I have not yet unrolled it, but can tell (because it is very loosely rolled) that it is in good shape and I think it looks SWEET! I measured the height and--to most others' experiences--it measures 61". I'm hoping for the extra inch horizontally, too.

I'll unroll it after my frame is complete. I don't need 40 sq ft of screen being walked on by my 3 yr old.

I am considering assembling the frame first, then wrapping with velvet. I've seen it done both ways...still leaning strongly toward assembling, then wrapping.

I'll post pictures of the project, in-progress, after I have it up on the wall and am done cursing. :p

Thanks for your help (prof, mech, wbasset) and everyones' opinions and criticisms.

More to follow...

[LemurGuy]

You know let's step back a bit. You're looking at tiny sample cards. While I think they serve a purpose in what they were designed for, I find it hard to believe that you can draw any conclusions from them. Not to mention a picture of them. I recall back when I poly'd my cut offs of FG and taped them to my unpoly'd FG screen. It was extremely difficult to discern differences between the two. Look here. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9064163&&#post9064163) . Those were like 9" by about 2'. There was an incredible amount of research done in the laminate thread, let's not just throw it by the wayside. Go to that thread and look at all the color analysis done. Then read the threads on neutral grays. By that time you'll start catching on.

mech

I've read that ENTIRE thread, and my personal taste won't allow me to get something as dark as a FG screen. I'm astounded at the energy and effort put intot he testing of both the FG and DW colors, but i think it would be great to do that with some of the other viable colors. The conclusions i draw from seeng these tiny samples is entirely based off of the comparison to the DW samples he has up in the tests. I have a full DW sheet so i know how tht looks full sized now, and just from a naked eye comparison some of those other samples look pretty decent.

I in no way think the work Merch or Wbassett or any of the others in the laminate thread should be ignored. Its astounding to see the effort put in by these indivduals.

[prof55]

And I feel compelled at this point to state the following:

I have never intended to trash or downplay anyone's DIY efforts or solutions. If anyone feels that I have, I am sorry.

My primary objective in this testing was to find a hang-and-view (laminate) solution that fell somewhere between Wilsonart's Designer White and Fashion Grey. The moment I had the samples in my hand, I had the impression that they were nearly two extremes (that wouldn't work for my setup) on either side of what I was looking for.

I have spent many hours looking at and photographing over 12 samples (both Wilsonart and Formica) using different mounting and lighting conditions. I'm an active Army guy without too many dollars to throw at this HT project, so I need good bang-to-buck ratio. And, since I have broadband and a decent digital camera, why not document my project (analysis?) for others to critique, applaud, ignore...or learn from?

I am, by nature, a guy who doesn't walk a path that others have thoroughly beat down (unless there are land mines in the area). Sure, I could have read the laminates thread, called the local building center store and ordered up a DW or FG solution. Where is the fun or adventure in that?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Okay...I hope that has cleared up a few things about my project.

On a related note, I picked up my 5x8' CgS today!!!!!! I have not yet unrolled it, but can tell (because it is very loosely rolled) that it is in good shape and I think it looks SWEET! I measured the height and--to most others' experiences--it measures 61". I'm hoping for the extra inch horizontally, too.

I'll unroll it after my frame is complete. I don't need 40 sq ft of screen being walked on by my 3 yr old.

I am considering assembling the frame first, then wrapping with velvet. I've seen it done both ways...still leaning strongly toward assembling, then wrapping.

I'll post pictures of the project, in-progress, after I have it up on the wall and am done cursing. :p

Thanks for your help (prof, mech, wbasset) and everyones' opinions and criticisms.

More to follow...

Personally, I admire your desire to take new paths. It's that kind of thinking and effort that makes this Forum such an interesting and useful place. I look forward to seeing your project come together! :)

Garry

[mech]

Personally, I admire your desire to take new paths. It's that kind of thinking and effort that makes this Forum such an interesting and useful place. I look forward to seeing your project come together! :)

Garry
I concur! :)

mech

[pjohnston007]

Okay. Screen is up!!!

Here's the process, eye candy follows.

I picked up the laminate in this condition:
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q214/unMourned/Final%20Product/DSCN2770.jpg

Here's the roll on its side at home. Exciting color:
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q214/unMourned/Final%20Product/DSCN2772.jpg

I drove to the local Lowe's to pick up my frame lumber. They were OUT! I talked with one of the workers and they told me they had a fresh shipment come in today. He brought back two bundles of eight footers. Since I'm building a 5x8 screen, I needed longer beams for my horizontal sections. I ended up buying two eight foot poplar boards and talked them down on two 10 foot red oak boards (more on that later). Here are the boards:
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q214/unMourned/Final%20Product/DSCN2799.jpg

Boards and laminate layed out--ready to get to work!
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q214/unMourned/Final%20Product/DSCN2800.jpg

I used the 90-degree clamp to saw my corners. As carefully and slowly as I sawed, I did NOT get perfect angles. I got most of the corners fairly square, but kept chanting to myself "Perfect is the enemy of good enough." Thank God I'm covering this up with velvet.
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q214/unMourned/Final%20Product/DSCN2810.jpg


I purchased the good velvet at Joann's Fabrics at 50% off (woot!) and vinyl L-bead, which I cut to strips.
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q214/unMourned/Final%20Product/DSCN2857.jpg

Here it is up on the wall:
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q214/unMourned/Final%20Product/DSCN2866.jpg


Eye candy to follow...

[pjohnston007]

Start of the eye candy (just the beginning--more to follow):
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q214/unMourned/Final%20Product/DSCN2868.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q214/unMourned/Final%20Product/DSCN2871.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q214/unMourned/Final%20Product/DSCN2873.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q214/unMourned/Final%20Product/DSCN2876.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q214/unMourned/Final%20Product/DSCN2878.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q214/unMourned/Final%20Product/DSCN2882.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q214/unMourned/Final%20Product/DSCN2883.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q214/unMourned/Final%20Product/DSCN2884.jpg


The result? Very happy with the color. I did calibrate the projector after installation of the screen, but did not wipe down the screen (need to do because there were some greasy hand and finger prints on receipt).

I will hope for a good shot of a hi-def hocky game and football game to show off some extreme situations for Chargrey Suede.

I will also do some lights on work.

I wholeheartedly believe that Chargrey Suede is a valid solution for a screen for people who do not want to go as dark as Fashion (or Dove) Grey.

More to follow...

-Paul

[pjohnston007]

Okay--the story on the red oak. Since there was apparently a run on the poplar (they had a bunch in the day or two before, but were OUT of 95% of their stock on build day, of course), the sales associate pointed to the red oak (which ran over $13 per 10 foot board). He gave me a price cut on the red oak that got it nearly down to the poplar prices--no problem, I thought.

I was wrong.

About 10 minutes into assembling the frame I received quite a wake-up. The red oak was far heavier (denser) and harder than poplar. Generally, this wouldn't have been a problem at all--but instead of stapling the vinyl strips (which hold down the velvet) I had to nail the strips into the red oak. The red oak increased the cost of this project and also increased build time by 2-4 hours. Overall, the red oak made this project a pain in the ass when it otherwise would have been nearly pure fun with poplar.

I cannot remember who used the method for wrapping the frame with the L-bead, but kudos to them. This was a very nice and easy method which produces killer looks.

In review, I definitely fumbled a few times on this project--but ended up with a screen that works well for my situation.

I also looked at several material colors and hope to have shed some light on Chargrey Suede as a valid solution for a projection surface.

-p

[Paints]

Looking good PJJohn! What projector are you using and can't wait to see the ambient light shots. Also....is your pj mounted or on a shelf? If things swing out well...I may not haft to go the FG route with poly coating.

[Nick Smith]

Yeah, I'm definitely interested as well. After finding out how bad my painting skills really are (and runing a sheet of FG in the process), I'd love to see a light grey laminate that doesn't require a coat of poly to improve it. Thanks for the effort!!!

[mech]

Paul,

Looks good! Couple photo requests...

Can you take a shot of the screen itself, straight back about 10 feet, even with the screen height, and with the flash? The one you have of the screen itself appears slightly off-axis, I'd like to see one perpendicular to the screen. Something like this:
http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o149/smechman/Poly/PC070018.jpg

Also, one a little closer with an image on the screen to discern the mottled pattern of CgS. If you could try and get as close as you have to so that I (we) could see the mottled appearance under a projected image.

And then we need to see some shots with some lights on. For it to truly be an alternative to FG, we need to see some ambient light shots. Give us a description of your lighting situation - maybe a shot of your room with the lights such as this:
http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o149/smechman/FG/P1050089.jpg

A good one I like to use is this shot - All (nine - 75 watts each) lights on, including 2 cans ~4 feet back shining directly onto screen
http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o149/smechman/Poly/PC070035.jpg

And then the same with the 5 lights on - 2 near screen off - dimmed to ~60%. This would be a normal viewing situation for most folks with some ambient light.
http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o149/smechman/Poly/PC070036.jpg

And finally a darkness shot:
http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o149/smechman/Poly/PC070037.jpg

The color seemed a bit off in pics #2, 3, and 7. That could be the camera though cause it looks ok in the last one. I'd ask for an off axis shot or two but I know that laminates have no trouble with that. This is about 25 degrees off axis.
http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o149/smechman/Poly/PC070038.jpg


Is the screen actually 5X8? Looks good so far! If you're like me though, you've got a bit of tweaking to do yet... :)

mech

[pjohnston007]

A quick note:

mech: pictures in the making to fill your request. We have company coming over this afternoon/evening, so it may be Monday until I take/download/post them here.

paints: I am using an InFocus IN72, mounted on top of our old entertainment stand. It is nothing elegant, but it is simple and works for now.

[mech]

mech: pictures in the making to fill your request. We have company coming over this afternoon/evening, so it may be Monday until I take/download/post them here.

No problem and thanks!

mech

[pjohnston007]

Material and Room Lighting:

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q214/unMourned/Final%20Product/DSCN2951.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q214/unMourned/Final%20Product/DSCN2950.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q214/unMourned/Final%20Product/DSCN2964.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q214/unMourned/Final%20Product/DSCN2958.jpg

[pjohnston007]

More "Lights Off" grabs:

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q214/unMourned/Final%20Product/DSCN2937.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q214/unMourned/Final%20Product/DSCN2909.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q214/unMourned/Final%20Product/DSCN2917.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q214/unMourned/Final%20Product/DSCN2918.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q214/unMourned/Final%20Product/DSCN2920.jpg

[pjohnston007]

Full Ambient Light grabs:

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q214/unMourned/Final%20Product/DSCN2973.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q214/unMourned/Final%20Product/DSCN2974.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q214/unMourned/Final%20Product/DSCN2975.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q214/unMourned/Final%20Product/DSCN2976.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q214/unMourned/Final%20Product/DSCN2982.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q214/unMourned/Final%20Product/DSCN2984.jpg

[pjohnston007]

mech,

I've tried to provide photos that fill your request. If I've fallen short of any request--or if there is something additional you'd like to see--please let me know.

I re-measured the screen and viewable is certainly 5x8 (+/- 1/4"). Here's how I arrived at that:

Since the laminate arrived at one inch over 5x8' each axis, I overlapped the laminate on the frame by 1/2" each axis (not much to work with, certainly). The result is a 96x60" screen that works for a multitude of DVDs, HD-TV and SD-TV.

[Wet1]

Looks nice, I like the color as it's a nice compromise of DW and FG.

One observation... is it me (I'm viewing on a crappy work monitor) or is there hot-spotting? I seem to be seeing the same hot-spotting pattern on most of these images.

[pjohnston007]

It looks like the camera highlights my uneven work of fastening the laminate to the frame. This pattern is completely invisible / undetectable during viewing.

There is much less hotspotting than the wall we were using and to my surprise, the Chargrey Suede seems to be rather non-hotspotting.

I ordered two sections of Wilsonart Pearl Silver and will be conducting tests on the two large sections when they arrive in ~2 weeks.

-p

[Wet1]

Great news regarding the lack of hot-spotting. Looking forward to seeing the other samples as well. :)

[prof55]

Nice job! Ambient light performance looks very good.

[mech]

Paul,

Looks good! How many watts are those lights? It looks like it's gonna hotspot though. If you look at your first two pics of the screen with the flash. You can see the dreaded hotspotting. To illustrate my point, here's a photo of FG without poly:

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o149/smechman/Wilsonart%20Fashion%20Gray/PB270081.jpg

Now here's one with the poly:

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o149/smechman/FG/P1040069_2.jpg

That little polygon of light in the upper right hand side is from the glare of the sun off of a passing car window I think. Anyways, I really noticed no serious hotspotting on my FG until I watched a bright HD hockey game. Then it was noticeable. I suspect it will be for you as well. Let's hope for the best! ;)

I agree with prof55 that it does do well in ambient light. Need to paint those walls though! :eek: Enough nitpicking by me... Excellent work! I'll keep my fingers crossed for ya and have a beer as well! :D

mech

[pjohnston007]

I have yet to watch a hockey game on CgS, but will try to do so soon. I'm about halfway through MI3 right now and it looks STUNNING (first full-length film I've watched on it).

Hotspotting--as I said earlier, compared to the existing finish on the wall, it is minimal to nonexistent.

I would, however, propose that a camera's flash can either be used to MAKE something hotspot or NOT hotspot. I can bounce flash, but have not used it for my photos. Our projector will not put nearly the light on the laminate (or any other surface) that the camera's flash will.

In my opinion, using a camera's flash to illustrate hotspotting isn't an accurate or valid measure of a material's hotspotting potential.

-p

[LemurGuy]

alright, i'm sold ... I think this will be the other side of my dual sided screen ...

[mech]

I have yet to watch a hockey game on CgS, but will try to do so soon. I'm about halfway through MI3 right now and it looks STUNNING (first full-length film I've watched on it).

Hotspotting--as I said earlier, compared to the existing finish on the wall, it is minimal to nonexistent.

I would, however, propose that a camera's flash can either be used to MAKE something hotspot or NOT hotspot. I can bounce flash, but have not used it for my photos. Our projector will not put nearly the light on the laminate (or any other surface) that the camera's flash will.

In my opinion, using a camera's flash to illustrate hotspotting isn't an accurate or valid measure of a material's hotspotting potential.

-p
I kinda always thought that was the accepted method for determining it... not to say you're wrong or anything. Just in what little research I've done on it, that was the easy way to determine whether or not it may exist. Another way that I've noticed it in the past with FG was with projected RGB colors on the screen as well.

Take a look at these from pre-poly FG (The FG is down in front on the first pic - Polywall is on the wall in back: On the 3rd pic the polywall is in front):
http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o149/smechman/Wilsonart%20Fashion%20Gray/PB270062.jpg

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o149/smechman/Poly%20Test/PC030030.jpg

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o149/smechman/Day%202/PB280182.jpg

and then this after the poly:

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o149/smechman/Poly/PC070053.jpg

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o149/smechman/Poly/PC070058.jpg

Keep in mind that I'm not trying to be a 'pest' or anything. :o I'm just trying to help. :) And I say this as someone who has yet to learn 'everything there is to know'. Also keep in mind that as you embarked on your journey I've learned more! :eek:

Now regardless of all that I expect some photos when you're all settled in for the showcase (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=749273) thread and the DIY Registry Thread. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=785709)

[mech]

PS I see you have little ones runnin' around just like me! :D I see the mini piano in the one pic. Notice the cozy coupe here:

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o149/smechman/Poly%20Test/PC030034.jpg

:p

mech

[Soransis]

alright, i'm sold ... I think this will be the other side of my dual sided screen ...


I was thinking of dual sided screen as well, but since seeing the CgS in action I don't think I'm going to anymore. I would love to see a hockey game first before really going nuts over this grey. *crosses fingers* I hope it doesn't hotspot! (of course its not like I'm going to be watching hockey, or any other sport on mine, well okay maybe the finals for some sports, but I doubt it).

[LemurGuy]

Well I'm in love with the white look for the darkest of night so i have to have it

I also don't mind sitting in darkness when i watch my TV shows / Movies / video games, but i don't think most of the company i have is comfortable with it, so I'd like to have something i can have a light on with when they're around.

[pjohnston007]

I love (and play) hockey; but was unable to catch a game on-screen this weekend. I honestly didn't check ESPN or the schedule, so I can't say I put an honest effort into it, either.

I'll try harder, so y'all can see hockey in action on CgS.

-p

[caddy-shak`]

Thank you for this post! This is what I was looking for! Although I can create "the cave", there will be times when I will want some ambient light. I really did not want to paint either!

I am planning on buying the HD1000. I sure would like to hear from someone using this projector with the CgS. It has 1500 lumens and am worried it will hot spot.

[pjohnston007]

I forgot to include this for those about to embark on a similar project.

Here are my project-related expenses:

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q214/unMourned/Final%20Product/ScreenPriceList-Cost.jpg

Even with the purchase of a saw and clamp, the cost of the project came in under US$200.00 (excluding tax).

Also: Here's the link to ALL final product laminate-related photos in my photobucket project folder:

http://s137.photobucket.com/albums/q214/unMourned/Final%20Product/?start=all

-p