http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/



wow and I thought the PS3 wouldn't mean anything for blu-ray ;)

The floodgates have opened.

Thats really funny!

Wow, only about the 10th thread discussing the same darned thing. :rolleyes:

Ok - I'm a big BD fan, but I must say to be fair that BOTH formats seem to have spiked, and simultaneously. So its a bit premature to declare that BD is walking all over HD-DVD just yet.

HD-DVD sales were looking VERY moribund on that site until today, then suddenly both formats got a burst of attention for totally unfathomable reasons.

The lines haven't quite crossed yet. I'm still guessing February for that thread :)

^ Yes, they have both spiked. It almost looks like a bulk order was made for titles on both formats. Do some independent video rental stores buy from Amazon or do they get them directly from the studios?

Actually though, I am surprised HD-DVD sales have held up as well as they have over the past month considering there really have not been many new releases during the past month and not a lot available to preorder either.

Actually though, I am surprised HD-DVD sales have held up as well as they have over the past month considering there really have not been many new releases during the past month and not a lot available to preorder either.

It's gotta be Toshiba's new HD-A2 decks entering the distribution pipeline the last couple of weeks. And maybe the XBox 360 HD-DVD add-on has continued to sell steadily (not necessarily sold out but moving units) underneath the radar. Both of these help explain the spike a week later of HD-DVD software. Better availability of PS3's and two new BD decks (Sony's and Pioneer's) can explain the spike on BD sales. Guess in the end the HD-DVD and BD improved sales cancel each other out for the time being. Unlike BD though, HD-DVD doesn't have a PS3 Trojan Horse that will continue to sell hundreds of thousands of units for months (maybe even years) to come. Are HD-DVD fans dedicated enough to buy more titles than the average J6P getting a PS3 and only buying a couple of BD movies for kicks?

And for the record I'm formal neutral but have liked what HD-DVD has been doing up until this point. Own the 360 HD-DVD add-on and, when I can find a PS3 easily, I'll become a BD owner (whether I want to or not; Sony doesn't give me a choice on the matter).

And for the record I'm formal neutral but have liked what HD-DVD has been doing up until this point. Own the 360 HD-DVD add-on and, when I can find a PS3 easily, I'll become a BD owner (whether I want to or not; Sony doesn't give me a choice on the matter).

According to some people on here, there are thousands of PS3's just sitting on shelves collecting dust because it is such a huge failure. lol You should be able to find one anywhere.

According to some people on here, there are thousands of PS3's just sitting on shelves collecting dust because it is such a huge failure. lol You should be able to find one anywhere.

I doubt there's 'thousands' laying around. The Best Buy where I live only has 80 (Kitchener, Ontario).

I doubt there's 'thousands' laying around. The Best Buy where I live only has 80 (Kitchener, Ontario).

Like Canada really counts. lol Once the sport of hockey is offically cancelled then more kids can stay inside and play video games.

P.S. Just joking around. I dont need all of canada on here blasting me. But on a serious note I hope all the canadians on here who have said sony hasnt sent any PS3s to canada need to go to your store.

^ Yes, they have both spiked. It almost looks like a bulk order was made for titles on both formats.I would expect both of these formats to have their sales less affected by people buying movies as gifts, just because they are less mainstream and more at the early adopter stage. Since these are only rankings, maybe DVD sales dropped off as people could no longer be guaranteed to get them in time for Christmas. With Christmas on a Monday this year, without Saturday delivery that means Friday (today) would be the last day to get something from Amazon in time to give it away on Christmas. So, maybe both formats were selling well in absolute terms even before we saw the spikes.

--Darin

I doubt there's 'thousands' laying around. The Best Buy where I live only has 80 (Kitchener, Ontario).

Thanx for the heads up. A few stores got shipments in last night. Richmond Hill is gone again, there are still some on woodbridge and scarborough. It seems whatever supply issues there were are now gone. Some stores had 60 consoles in.

I just looked at the charts. Still looks like an A@@ whoopin to me by HD DVD. Sorry.

"Sales Surge"?

Some people really don't comprehend what those charts actually track...

If I'm not mistaken, the site only tracks HD movie sales on Amazon.com, which in my opinion hardly represents the big picture.

Even if it does, I still think that it's far too early to declare either side a "winner". I'd wait until late 2007 or early 2008 at the least before making such an assumption.

It's pretty funny and sad that interest in the PS3 has waned significantly compared to the madness that was just over a month ago. Like I said before, however, it's still early to come to any conclusions.

Here's hoping we get big announcements in January by the truck-loads :D !

According to some people on here, there are thousands of PS3's just sitting on shelves collecting dust because it is such a huge failure. lol You should be able to find one anywhere.


The limited number of systems available are of course selling, due to mostly Sony fan boys and Sonys hype machine. That however will ony last so long, the PS3 itself is a massive failure as a gaming console, the games are not ground breaking, as Sony had promised, even the games that appear on both consoles look and play better on the 360. Check out the gaming sites and you'll see just how disappointed people are with the PS3. Better yet checkout a PS3 and 360 side by side playing the same games and then see if you can say the PS3 is better with a straight face. :rolleyes: Sony has without a doubt proved they can make promises and work wonders with marketing products, they've also proven time and time again they can't deliver on those promises. Is Blue Ray the product Sony promised? No! Is the PS3 the Product Sony promised? NO! But Sony fanboys will run out and buy them anyway, :rolleyes: in this case you get what you deserve not what you pay for.

If I'm not mistaken, the site only tracks HD movie sales on Amazon.com, which in my opinion hardly represents the big picture.

Even more specifically it only tracks HD movie sales rankings on the Amazon site. It doesn't track anything about sales, just overall ranks/popularity.

While those lines on the charts may look impressive and may appear to show lots of sales, they actually do no such thing. They just show the overall rank of the HD stuff in a list of over 11,000 standard def titles. That is, those lines represent about 2% of the total product on the list. Any movement up or down is just as likely to be a reflection of the 98% of product surrounding it.

A rise in the line does not indicate a sales surge just as a drop in the line doesn't indicate a sales decline. Actual sales could very easily be going in the opposite direction of those lines. There's no way to know.

People are reading things into these charts that simply isn't there.

The limited number of systems available are of course selling, due to mostly Sony fan boys and Sonys hype machine. That however will ony last so long, the PS3 itself is a massive failure as a gaming console, the games are not ground breaking, as Sony had promised, even the games that appear on both consoles look and play better on the 360. Check out the gaming sites and you'll see just how disappointed people are with the PS3. Better yet checkout a PS3 and 360 side by side playing the same games and then see if you can say the PS3 is better with a straight face. :rolleyes: Sony has without a doubt proved they can make promises and work wonders with marketing products, they've also proven time and time again they can't deliver on those promises. Is Blue Ray the product Sony promised? No! Is the PS3 the Product Sony promised? NO! But Sony fanboys will run out and buy them anyway, :rolleyes: in this case you get what you deserve not what you pay for.

Its been out for like a month. Man you people are impatient. The xbox 360 wasnt that impressive when it was first released. I know, I had one. It had few games and most of the games were the same as ones released on the regular xbox and the PS2 except the 360 versions had less features and were basically just hollow shells of a game. Did you ever play last years madden on 360? It was a joke. If you want to try and bury the PS3 after a month then thats your perogative.

The limited number of systems available are of course selling, due to mostly Sony fan boys and Sonys hype machine. That however will ony last so long, the PS3 itself is a massive failure as a gaming console, the games are not ground breaking, as Sony had promised, even the games that appear on both consoles look and play better on the 360. Check out the gaming sites and you'll see just how disappointed people are with the PS3. Better yet checkout a PS3 and 360 side by side playing the same games and then see if you can say the PS3 is better with a straight face. :rolleyes: Sony has without a doubt proved they can make promises and work wonders with marketing products, they've also proven time and time again they can't deliver on those promises. Is Blue Ray the product Sony promised? No! Is the PS3 the Product Sony promised? NO! But Sony fanboys will run out and buy them anyway, :rolleyes: in this case you get what you deserve not what you pay for.

Wow, and I thought I hated Sony.....

The statistics in that site are highly unreliable(some even say biased against blu-ray).

I'll wait for a more reliable source.

Its been out for like a month. Man you people are impatient. The xbox 360 wasnt that impressive when it was first released. I know, I had one. It had few games and most of the games were the same as ones released on the regular xbox and the PS2 except the 360 versions had less features and were basically just hollow shells of a game. Did you ever play last years madden on 360? It was a joke. If you want to try and bury the PS3 after a month then thats your perogative.

I agree that we should wait until late 2007 at the very least before we can judge how the PS3 will do the next 3-4 years. As Bill Gates put it so elequently: "The real battle will be in 2007".

As a matter of fact, we should wait a year or so before coming to any conclusions about either games OR HD formats. Neither HD format has enough market penetration to yield solid revenue numbers comparable to DVD sales, and game developers have yet to tap into the game systems' power to start cranking out the big AAA titles.

One thing is certain: 2007 will one interesting year. Fierce competition will only mean more quality movies and games for everyone, which can only be a good thing :) .

Now, it's showing that the gap between the two is widening again... -Let's see what happens tomorrow - who knows what could be revealed? *cues twilight zone music for no reason*

Enough of all of the dumb HD-DVD fanboy remarks. Lets get back to the topic: thedvdwars is not a reliable site. It shows rankings in popularity on only one site, not sales figures. Since the quality of the films and the variety is increasing, I personally do believe that sales are increasing.

Oh, by the way - besides his comment about "massive failure as a gaming console" - everything else Shasta said was absolutely honest, true, and/or factual. Read what he wrote more carefully. I don't know why some of you were shocked by what he said. It's actually nothing that a ton of paid editors at many official publications (even "Official Playstation Magazine"!) haven't said a hundred times already. Sony has not delivered on many of their promises and has had a disappointing launch. Whether you're a Sony fan or not - few will disagree with that - but depending on your viewpoint those truths either matter to you a lot or seem meaningless/irrelevant at this point and time. But there's definitely nothing new or shocking here in what Shasta said. In fact, until the PS3 solves shortage problems, gets more triple-A games out, or til BD matches every spec and pedigree that HD DVD has delivered for so long - you should expect to hear the same kinds of things continuously.

And you'll hear HD DVD griping when Pirates of the Caribbean comes out from Disney to BD first. The door swings both ways. I'm surprised you guys aren't used to or aware of all this at this point though...

http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/



wow and I thought the PS3 wouldn't mean anything for blu-ray ;)

HD DVD Fanboys say the darnest things! :p

http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/graphs/salesrank-1-1-recent7.jpg

I don't know if I would call that a "huge surge".

This is like watching the stock market guys, they go up and down, but always HD DVD is on top. Not bad for a "doomed format" eh?

Individual BD sales still show they have twice the rankings as the same-ranked HD DVDs. Is that really something to be celebrating?

AA...what? First of all, I have the official PS mag issue on the PS3, and (not suprisingly)it is most definitely nothing but positive. Numerous reviews (go read the cnet one yourself) put the PS3 well ahead of either the Wii or the 360. I had already agreed (as do most) that ust like when the 360 launched, there aren't many great games out yet, and they don't take full advantage of the PS3s hardware. I have never seen any reputable source say that dual format games look better on the 360, so source please from either you or shasta???

It now looks like Sony may actually make its 1m ship target (which suprises the heck out of me). And since you apparenly are not paying attention, BD does match or exceed HD DVD in almost every way now. PQ is awesome (and has been for months), AQ is often better (more LPCM tracks), and there are players that actually work on BD. If price is so important, get a PS3. Otherwise, accept that we early adopters pay through the nose.

What's really happening is the cacophonous echo chamber of a 2:1 ratio of HD DVD fanboys to anyone else on AVS makes it seem like all the good news is for their format. They cast doubt on any good BD news, and add (supposed) credibility to even the tiniest of positive ruors for HD DVD.

AA...what? First of all, I have the official PS mag issue on the PS3, and (not suprisingly)it is most definitely nothing but positive. Numerous reviews (go read the cnet one yourself) put the PS3 well ahead of either the Wii or the 360. I had already agreed (as do most) that ust like when the 360 launched, there aren't many great games out yet, and they don't take full advantage of the PS3s hardware. I have never seen any reputable source say that dual format games look better on the 360, so source please from either you or shasta???
It now looks like Sony may actually make its 1m ship target (which suprises the heck out of me). And since you apparenly are not paying attention, BD does match or exceed HD DVD in almost every way now. PQ is awesome (and has been for months), AQ is often better (more LPCM tracks), and there are players that actually work on BD. If price is so important, get a PS3. Otherwise, accept that we early adopters pay through the nose.

What's really happening is the cacophonous echo chamber of a 2:1 ratio of HD DVD fanboys to anyone else on AVS makes it seem like all the good news is for their format. They cast doubt on any good BD news, and add (supposed) credibility to even the tiniest of positive ruors for HD DVD.



Check out the IGN site and do a search, the 360 has flat-out beaten the PS3 for every single dual format Game they've compared. Just because you don't want something to be true doesn't make it a ny less true.

I have to say that although we're getting SOME great HD on BD, it's at a high cost. Zero, or near zero extras, and compression artifacts. I can't recall any in Black Hawk Down, but Kingdom of Heaven had some. When Legolas and Dr. Bashir were riding towards Jerusalem there is a camera pan from them towards the city. In the middle of it, there is macroblocking. I've never seen macroblocking on any HD DVD.

HD DVD fans don't like when I say this, but I think the LPCM tracks I've heard are superior to the TrueHD I've heard, and I've heard most of them.

CAN BD catch up to HD DVD? Of course they can. They have the technology to do so, but Sony is stuck on MPEG2 and the whole BD conglomerate with the exception of Paramount seems to think these first releases should be feature free to guarentee double-dipping. HD DVD is POURING on the features with practically every release.

So BD can match HD DVD if they want to, but for what seem like financial reasons, they are choosing not to.

...audio is more consistently better because of the included LPCM tracks

Yea, and there goes a significant part of the space advantage BR is constantly touting, and most of the rest goes to the idiotic use of MPEG2. As shasta stated, BR in theory could be fantastic, but that has yet to see the light of day.

Just for fun, let's look at a snap shot of the "Bestselling" ranking from buy.com today:

Blu-ray
26. Invincible (Blu-ray)
43. Fifth Element (Blu-ray)
61. X3-Last Stand (Blu-Ray)
62. Underworld-Evolution (Blu-ray)
78. Speed (Blu-Ray)
79. Kingdom of Heaven (Blu-ray)
83. Terminator 2-Judgment Day (Blu-ray)
86. Pearl Harbor-60th Anniversary Commemorative Edition (Blu-ray)
93. Ice Age-Meltdown (Blu-Ray)
100. Black Hawk Down (Blu-ray)
101. Into the Blue (Blu-ray)
141. Click (Blu-Ray)
142. World Trade Center (Blu-ray)
146. Monster House (Blu-Ray)
157. Lord of War (Blu-ray)
163. Last Samurai (Blu-Ray)

Avg. Blu-ray Top-10 Rank: 71


HD DVD
28. Superman Returns (HD & DVD Combo)
33. Casino (HD DVD)
45. Jet Li-Fearless (HD DVD & DVD Combo)
76. Goodfellas (HD DVD)
82. Last Samurai (HD DVD)
85. National Lampoons Christmas Vacation (HD DVD)
139. Chicago and Earth Wind and Fire/Live/Geek Theatre (HD DVD)
144. Mummy (HD DVD)
159. Apollo 13 (HD DVD)
162. Superman I-Movie (HD)

Avg. HD DVD Top-10 Rank: 95

UMD (Just for a point of reference)
161. Talladega Nights-Ballad of Ricky Bobby (UMD)


Wish we had a graph over time, but I think only a week or two ago HD DVD had many more titles in the top 100...

Sorry but I haven't seen a single Bd title that beats the best HD DVD has to offer. At their best some BD titles have just recently started match par with HD DVD in terms of PQ, but that can hardly be described as a positive given the lofty expectations Sony set for BD. My issue with Sony has everything to do with the fact that instead of producing the products they hype, they use there considerable marketing muscle to sway public opinion. As a result the consumer gets an inferior or similar product at a premium price. There's not an HD DVD fanboy out there that wouldn't admit that BD, "In theory" would be a superior format for HD movies, however thats not whats on the market today, and BD fan boys are kidding themselves if they think all of a sudden BD discs are going to look and sound five times better than HD -DVD.

From the chair in my living the PQ looks phenomenal on BD. Im not sure what youre watching.

I for one WANT BD to get their act together becasue I want great HD. I personally hope this format war lasts forever because the competition has forced BD onto its game.

IF BD failed, the only satisfaction I would gain from it would be knowing that a splinter monopoly didn't pan out and the obnoxious comments made by people at Sony could be thrown in their faces.

But I'd be ticked because what happens to my BD collection when my Sammy dies?

Could I get a link for those buy.com stats? I'm not doubting the numbers, I'd just like to see them.

I'm watching HD DVD and guess what I guarantee it looks as good or better than what your watching for half the price. ;)

You cant make that guarantee. I have owned both. I had about 25 HD dvds before I sold them on Ebay. Ive now watched 51 of my BD dvds. There is no way the PQ is overall better on HD. But I guess since YOU "guarantee" it, it must be so.

PS. My factory sealed Samsung cost me about 500 dollars on ebay and I havent spent more than 19.99 on a BD disc. So if your collection really cost you half of mine than Id like to know where you got your stuff.

I would expect both of these formats to have their sales less affected by people buying movies as gifts, just because they are less mainstream and more at the early adopter stage. Since these are only rankings, maybe DVD sales dropped off as people could no longer be guaranteed to get them in time for Christmas. With Christmas on a Monday this year, without Saturday delivery that means Friday (today) would be the last day to get something from Amazon in time to give it away on Christmas. So, maybe both formats were selling well in absolute terms even before we saw the spikes.

--Darin

That's exactly what I was thinking as I looked at the charts spiking for both formats the last couple of days.
My guess is that both were sliding the last couple of weeks because of the large increase in sd dvd sales as holiday gifts (ranks = reative sales), whereas most HD/BD sales for now are early adopter sales for themselves (not gifts) and thus relatively stable.
Now that the holiday rush for sd dvds is mostly behind us, that same stable rate of purchase for the HD formats is translating into higher rankings for both formats.

BTW, both formats appear to be doing significantly better, not just BD. But this is good news for HD discs in general!

Could I get a link for those buy.com stats? I'm not doubting the numbers, I'd just like to see them.

No problem, I have no idea how to define "Bestselling" but here is how to generate the list:

1. Go to buy.com's home page
2. Change the drop-down box next to "Search" to "DVDs"
3. Type an asterisk "*" (without the quotes) in the text box
4. Click "Go"
5. On the results page, make certain that "View" is set to "List" and "Sorted By" is set to "Bestselling"

Don't know how often it's refreshed, or anything else.

I'm watching HD DVD and guess what I guarantee it looks as good or better than what your watching for half the price. ;)

Are you a Bear? Did you just wake up from hibernation? There's 2 Blu-ray machines you can buy right now for $500.

I'm not a fan of Amazon, thus I tend to buy at B&M, and Blu Ray prices are keeping me from matching the number of HD DVDs I have already. This might change after the holidays, but I ain't helping the "surge" yet...

Ottscay, I don't want to argue but you are the one who is confused or has not been reading enough...

AA...what? First of all, I have the official PS mag issue on the PS3, and (not suprisingly)it is most definitely nothing but positive... I don't know which particular issue you're talking about - but I was referring to the one where the official production editor (the person who ran the entire magazine) wrote and published a diatribe that said she would personally not be buying a PS3 because it was over-priced without any interesting games out at the moment, etc. This is a silly point though that I just made as an aside - I don't really consider it that important anyway. I was just mentioning it to note the irony, general impression out there.

Numerous reviews (go read the cnet one yourself) put the PS3 well ahead of either the Wii or the 360. "Well ahead of the Wii and 360!" - what planet are you living on and where did you read that? Besides Resistance - the PS3 has been considered to have practically nothing. Even Sony fanboys on other messageboards lament this fact daily and just talk about all the titles they hope are coming out soon (DMC4, etc). And I don't know what Cnet says but every other magazine/publication has said that the PS3 has a lot of catching up to do to the 360 in numerous areas and in shoot-outs for most interesting console of the season - usually the Wii wins.

I had already agreed (as do most) that ust like when the 360 launched, there aren't many great games out yet, and they don't take full advantage of the PS3s hardware. I have never seen any reputable source say that dual format games look better on the 360, so source please from either you or shasta???. This is where you are the most wrong. Jesus, it's like you've never read anything on the dual-format games for both systems. The sources that say this are too numerous to provide links for. Just go to Gamespot and IGN.com to start. Gamespot even has a lengthy shoot-out article just about this specific thing that includes screenshots for comparison and everything. They conclude by saying that the 360 is superior for basically every game and that the PS3 has a lot of catching up to do. The 360 dual-format games universally have much better frame-rates, among other things. This is all well-known. In fact, it's been noted (by many people, official editors - not just me!) that the 360 will always have slightly better graphics/performance on multi-platform games since it's easier to develop for than the PS3 - I mean, it's been said that for the next year at minimum this will be true. And I've just been talking about graphics/performance/etc - I haven't even mentioned where the 360 games are/will be better thanks to things like their gamer achievements system and exclusive live features like the new levels that will exist only for the 360 in GTA4.

It now looks like Sony may actually make its 1m ship target (which suprises the heck out of me). First of all, they originally predicted and long-promised 2 millon. Second of all, they have only sold/shipped a little over 500,000 worldwide now. Third, OPM editors/insiders themselves wrote/admitted that the US would likely see no more than 500,000 units by Jan 1. Fourth, we'll see - maybe they'll get more - but I doubt it. Fifth, I don't even know if this point matters anyway (I mean, whether it's before of after Dec. 31 - Sony will ship a lot more units over the next several months and hardcore fans will buy).

And since you apparenly are not paying attention, BD does match or exceed HD DVD in almost every way now. PQ is awesome (and has been for months), AQ is often better (more LPCM tracks), and there are players that actually work on BD. This is blatantly wrong and reeks of fanboyism and/or mis-information. The truth is some studios with BD don't offer extras and still use MPEG2. Also, BD-J isnt ready for prime time yet.

Glad to hear BD is finally (and no they haven't been caught up "for months" - what are you talking about?) catching up in the PQ department but they still, with many titles, fall below the pedigree that HD DVD has achieved and that both high-def companies said would be the goal/standard from day one. This is just a fact. A significant amount of BD titles aren't providing - not just the same! - but ANY amount of extras, PiP, advanced authoring, or consistency that a seemingly very high majority of HD DVD titles have enjoyed for quite a while now. All these things are very important to me - and I imagine they'll be seen as very important by anyone else who gets to experience and enjoy them with regularity. It's great stuff. Hopefully BD catches up sooner rather than later.

What's really happening is the cacophonous echo chamber of a 2:1 ratio of HD DVD fanboys to anyone else on AVS makes it seem like all the good news is for their format. They cast doubt on any good BD news, and add (supposed) credibility to even the tiniest of positive ruors for HD DVD. No, I don't think so. People see the facts and react accordingly. Most people who come to AVS are unbiased, educated professionals who either have the money to buy both or the knowledge to see through the BS. Many of us have chosen one side but that hasn't made us blind or unwilling to listen, research, and admit the truth. Any fanboy straggler who wonders in from another site can usually be weeded out quickly.

It looks like BD peaked yesterday, and has fallen somewhat today, while HD-DVD continues its upward swing. Much ado about nothing.

Oh great, I can get two over hyped, under preforming machines in one package, lucky day. :rolleyes:

Pure trolling, plain and simple. The PS3 is as low as $500 and has rave reviews from neutral videophiles at this site.

Why can't we all just get along. :)

It now looks like Sony may actually make its 1m ship target (which suprises the heck out of me).

Did they adjust again? The 'target' was 2 million just last week.

Just for fun, let's look at a snap shot of the "Bestselling" ranking from buy.com today:

Blu-ray
26. Invincible (Blu-ray)
43. Fifth Element (Blu-ray)
61. X3-Last Stand (Blu-Ray)
62. Underworld-Evolution (Blu-ray)
78. Speed (Blu-Ray)
79. Kingdom of Heaven (Blu-ray)
83. Terminator 2-Judgment Day (Blu-ray)
86. Pearl Harbor-60th Anniversary Commemorative Edition (Blu-ray)
93. Ice Age-Meltdown (Blu-Ray)
100. Black Hawk Down (Blu-ray)
101. Into the Blue (Blu-ray)
141. Click (Blu-Ray)
142. World Trade Center (Blu-ray)
146. Monster House (Blu-Ray)
157. Lord of War (Blu-ray)
163. Last Samurai (Blu-Ray)

Avg. Blu-ray Top-10 Rank: 71


HD DVD
28. Superman Returns (HD & DVD Combo)
33. Casino (HD DVD)
45. Jet Li-Fearless (HD DVD & DVD Combo)
76. Goodfellas (HD DVD)
82. Last Samurai (HD DVD)
85. National Lampoons Christmas Vacation (HD DVD)
139. Chicago and Earth Wind and Fire/Live/Geek Theatre (HD DVD)
144. Mummy (HD DVD)
159. Apollo 13 (HD DVD)
162. Superman I-Movie (HD)

Avg. HD DVD Top-10 Rank: 95

UMD (Just for a point of reference)
161. Talladega Nights-Ballad of Ricky Bobby (UMD)


Wish we had a graph over time, but I think only a week or two ago HD DVD had many more titles in the top 100...


wow!!!

Just for fun, let's look at a snap shot of the "Bestselling" ranking from buy.com today:

Blu-ray
26. Invincible (Blu-ray)
43. Fifth Element (Blu-ray)
61. X3-Last Stand (Blu-Ray)
62. Underworld-Evolution (Blu-ray)
78. Speed (Blu-Ray)
79. Kingdom of Heaven (Blu-ray)
83. Terminator 2-Judgment Day (Blu-ray)
86. Pearl Harbor-60th Anniversary Commemorative Edition (Blu-ray)
93. Ice Age-Meltdown (Blu-Ray)
100. Black Hawk Down (Blu-ray)
101. Into the Blue (Blu-ray)
141. Click (Blu-Ray)
142. World Trade Center (Blu-ray)
146. Monster House (Blu-Ray)
157. Lord of War (Blu-ray)
163. Last Samurai (Blu-Ray)

Avg. Blu-ray Top-10 Rank: 71


HD DVD
28. Superman Returns (HD & DVD Combo)
33. Casino (HD DVD)
45. Jet Li-Fearless (HD DVD & DVD Combo)
76. Goodfellas (HD DVD)
82. Last Samurai (HD DVD)
85. National Lampoons Christmas Vacation (HD DVD)
139. Chicago and Earth Wind and Fire/Live/Geek Theatre (HD DVD)
144. Mummy (HD DVD)
159. Apollo 13 (HD DVD)
162. Superman I-Movie (HD)

Avg. HD DVD Top-10 Rank: 95

UMD (Just for a point of reference)
161. Talladega Nights-Ballad of Ricky Bobby (UMD)


Wish we had a graph over time, but I think only a week or two ago HD DVD had many more titles in the top 100...

I just went through and verified all this. The picture changes somewhat right after this list ends though:

Blu-ray
172. Gone in 60 Seconds
273. Memento
307. Superman Returns
308. The Wild
309. Enemy of the State
324. Stealth
335. The Ant Bully
348. 50 First Dates
349. House of Flying Daggers
371. Italian Job

Average for next 10: 309.6

HD DVD
165. The Thing
166. Spartacus
173. We Weree Soldiers
176. Chronicles of Riddick
178. Pitch Black
270. Sahara
274. Cinderella Man
275. Serenity
299. Derailed
300. Scary Movie

Average for next 10: 227.6

Blu-ray
375. Kiss of the Dragon
376. LXG
389. Unforgiven
399. Tomb Raider
402. MI: III
403. Total Recall
404. Stargate
411. Brothers Grimm
412. Eight Below
413. Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back
435. Enron
446. Tears of the Sun

Average for next 12: 405.4

HD DVD
345. The Phantom of the Opera
333. A Christmas Story
311. Corpse Bride
301. The Matador
302. Miami Vice
304. Superman II
271. Constantine
377. Meet the Parents
382. Field of Dreams
386. Lady in the Water
391. Scorpion King
392. V for Vendetta

Average for next 12: 341.25

These next few are also HD DVD, but after searching through 30 more pages I couldn't find anymore BDs to match them with:

394. 12 Monkeys
400. Heart
415. Fast and the Furious
421. Training Day
428. Van Helsing
429. Swordfish
438. Friday Night Lights
439. Kiss Kiss, Bang Bang
440. Animal House

It's a little suspicious that they seem to go in runs with 2-3 HD DVDs back to back and 2-3 BDs back to back. Interseting though.

As you go further down you can start to see how it gets more and more lopsided for HD DVD.

I know there's something screwy on that site because I just went through the next 30 pages, up to 50, and didn't see a single other HD title in either format.

If this format is so popular it can hit the 20's in sales of all DVDs, you're going to tell me that by the time we get to 1200 we still haven't seen Smallville, or The Sopranos, or Species or dozens and dozens of others? That smells funny to me.

Pure trolling, plain and simple. The PS3 is as low as $500 and has rave reviews from neutral videophiles at this site.

Why can't we all just get along. :)

How is stating opinion "trolling"??? The PS3 is getting anything but rave reviews, it will take you all of but five seconds to do a search and find out how much of a major disappointment the PS3 has been to many people. I'll say it once again in the simplest terms I can, Sony marketed a "vastly superior gaming console" in order to justify it's inflated price. Anyone remember the Sony's sales pitch? "NEXT GEN. STARTS WHEN WE SAY IT DOES" Yeah, right :rolleyes: The only thing they delivered on was the inflated price.

Individual BD sales still show they have twice the rankings as the same-ranked HD DVDs.Looks like that is true for "Superman Returns" and "Lady in the Water" right now. A couple of days ago SR on Blu-ray got higher than on HD DVD and LitW was reasonably close when I checked yesterday. "The Sopranos" is currently ranked higher on Blu-ray than HD DVD.

I'm not sure when the next big title for just a movie will be released on both formats on the same day, but it should be interesting to see what happens there.

--Darin

I just went through and verified all this. The picture changes somewhat right after this list ends though.

Sorry, Fettastic, I think I screwed you up. I didn't list only the top 10 blu-ray titles, I kept listing them as I added HD DVD to get to 10 just because. I only included the top 10 in my avg. calculation, however.

The last 5 on my blu-ray list are actually numbers 11-15. You should probably rerun your numbers to see how that shakes things up.

My bad!! :(

I for one WANT BD to get their act together becasue I want great HD. I personally hope this format war lasts forever because the competition has forced BD onto its game.

IF BD failed, the only satisfaction I would gain from it would be knowing that a splinter monopoly didn't pan out and the obnoxious comments made by people at Sony could be thrown in their faces.

But I'd be ticked because what happens to my BD collection when my Sammy dies?

Amen

Looks like that is true for "Superman Returns" and "Lady in the Water" right now. A couple of days ago SR on Blu-ray got higher than on HD DVD and LitW was reasonably close when I checked yesterday. "The Sopranos" is currently ranked higher on Blu-ray than HD DVD.

I'm not sure when the next big title for just a movie will be released on both formats on the same day, but it should be interesting to see what happens there.

--Darin

Sorry, I wasn't clear, although those results are interesting as well.
What I meant was that the top 10 rated releases at www.thedvdwars.com for HD DVD are rated roughly twice as high as the top 10 releases on BD. In other words, the 3rd highest rated HD DVD may be ranked 500 (I don't know if it is, I'm just making an illustration), and the 3rd highest rated BD would then be ranked around 1,000.

Sorry, Fettastic, I think I screwed you up. I didn't list only the top 10 blu-ray titles, I kept listing them as I added HD DVD to get to 10 just because. I only included the top 10 in my avg. calculation, however.

The last 5 on my blu-ray list are actually numbers 11-15. You should probably rerun your numbers to see how that shakes things up.

My bad!! :(

No, I got you. I just started from after your list ended. The way I see it, all the rankings are here if people want to play around with them. I feel "done" with the project.

Like I said, I don't really trust those rankings anyway because the HD releases were often clustered together and then they just dissapear after like 440.

how can anyone claim that this is not a surge? :rolleyes:

about 1 million PS3s have been sold now. that alone is more than all the HD-DVD players in the world.


http://img343.imageshack.us/img343/2041/salesrank11recent30hh3.jpg (http://img343.imageshack.us/my.php?image=salesrank11recent30hh3.jpg)


this is barely the beginning :)

how can anyone claim that this is not a surge? :rolleyes:

about 1 million PS3s have been sold now. that alone is more than all the HD-DVD players in the world.


http://img343.imageshack.us/img343/2041/salesrank11recent30hh3.jpg (http://img343.imageshack.us/my.php?image=salesrank11recent30hh3.jpg)


this is barely the beginning :)

http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/graphs/salesrank-1-1-All.jpg

Probably because as you can see, it's dropping back down again while HD DVD continues to rise. It's also less than it was at launch while HD DVD is slightly better than it was at launch.

I think it is pretty clear BR is coming on stronger now, but the question remains if there are twice as many or three times as many BR players on the market then HD DVD then why is HD DVD still outselling BR? I think HD DVD will stay strong even if BR outsells it because of attach rates, which will almost certainly be higher for HD DVD.

how can anyone claim that this is not a surge? :rolleyes:

You can rolleyes all you want. I'd prefer that you actually explained how it *is* a surge. What, exactly, do you think that chart is showing?

No, I got you. I just started from after your list ended.Your post makes it looks like for 11-20 HD DVD is ahead by 227.6 to 309.6, when in fact it is Blu-ray that is ahead there by 191 to 227.6 according to that site.

--Darin

You can rolleyes all you want. I'd prefer that you actually explained how it *is* a surge. What, exactly, do you think that chart is showing?

Not one person outside of an Industry insider knows anything factual (and they are not about to release accurate sales figures from either camp) and every single post about this subject is speculation and interpretation of data that is of unknown quality. Anyone that says they are correct is convinced in their own mind only. The rest are trolls... some paid!

Your post makes it looks like for 11-20 HD DVD is ahead by 227.6 to 309.6, when in fact it is Blu-ray that is ahead there by 191 to 227.6 according to that site.

--Darin

I thought I stated it pretty clearly "It changes AFTER THAT LIST ENDS". I then say "Average for NEXT 10", as in the 10 after the previous list ends. The facts are exactly as I presented them. Once you get lower, HD DVD sales trump BD sales.

Your post makes it looks like for 11-20 HD DVD is ahead by 227.6 to 309.6, when in fact it is Blu-ray that is ahead there by 191 to 227.6 according to that site.

--Darin

I just added all 3 groupings together and got a final average of:

Blu-ray: 228.33

HD DVD: 192.74

Now aren't you glad you pushed for a more enveloping score? :rolleyes:

I think it is pretty clear BR is coming on stronger now, but the question remains if there are twice as many or three times as many BR players on the market then HD DVD then why is HD DVD still outselling BR? I think HD DVD will stay strong even if BR outsells it because of attach rates, which will almost certainly be higher for HD DVD.

I agree with you. I think HD-DVD could remain a "niche" market for several years to come, rabidly supported by a small fan base that remains loyal and buys almost everything released for it.

However, this time next year there will be close to if not over 10 million blu-ray players in homes around the world. Also, the number of movies available on blu-ray will be much larger than the number available on HD-DVD. This is something that Toshiba will not be able to touch.

I just added all 3 groupings together and got a final average of:

Blu-ray: 228.33

HD DVD: 192.74

Now aren't you glad you pushed for a more enveloping score? :rolleyes:And why would you post an average for the top 38 for Blu-ray vs the top 32 for HD DVD? Of course you can make it factually correct and still make it look like HD DVD is leading in a way that it isn't there by including 6 more Blu-ray titles at the bottom to average in or using titles 6 further down on the Blu-ray list for your numbers.

Seriously, what is your goal with using different numbers of titles to get your final averages above? This reminds me of people who use street price for one product and MSRP for another product to make it look like there is a difference in price that isn't there and then say that their numbers were factual.

--Darin

However, this time next year there will be close to if not over 10 million blu-ray players in homes around the world.

And, as has been discussed ad naseum, it is unclear how many of that number would actually be used for movies, since the vast majority of those machines could be used for gaming only. We'll only know as the year progresses. But if you're assuming that PS3 is going to somehow "crush" HD DVD, you've got blinders on.


And you still haven't addressed my question: How does that chart you posted represent a "huge blu-ray sales surge"? You apparently think it is so obvious that you need to use a rolleyes icon... but the rest of us that actually understand the chart await your explanation.

^

Hey, neat! More rolleyes, but still no explanation. Interesting.

And why would you post an average for the top 38 for Blu-ray vs the top 32 for HD DVD? Of course you can make it factually correct and still make it look like HD DVD is leading in a way that it isn't there by including 6 more Blu-ray titles at the bottom to average in or using titles 6 further down on the Blu-ray list for your numbers.

Seriously, what is your goal with using different numbers of titles to get your final averages above? This reminds me of people who use street price for one product and MSRP for another product to make it look like there is a difference in price that isn't there and then say that their numbers were factual.

--Darin

Ok, I see where the problem is now. I didn't realize that original list was lopsided. You're right, my results are screwy then. Don't make me out to be some moustache-twirling villain though, it was an honest mistake.

Here's those last 3 BDs so we can get an accurate sample:

1468. Good Night and Good Luck
1490. silent Hill
1491. RV

So all together now:

HD DVD average for top 41 titles: 271.41

Blu-ray average for top 41 titles: 388.09

Whew! I'm glad we got that sorted out. :cool:

Ok, I see where the problem is now. I didn't realize that original list was lopsided. You're right, my results are screwy then. Don't make me out to be some moustache-twirling villain though, it was an honest mistake.I was trying to point it out nicely the first time by adding to what BrynRhys said. By the time you responded to that with 2 posts, including a :rolleyes: I figured you knew what your numbers represented. I can see that it was an honest mistake though.
Here's those last 3 BDs so we can get an accurate sample:

1468. Good Night and Good Luck
1490. silent Hill
1491. RV

So all together now:

HD DVD average for top 41 titles: 271.41

Blu-ray average for top 41 titles: 388.09I haven't checked that site, but it looks a little bit strange that the Blu-ray list goes from:

446. Tears of the Sun

for the 38th title to 1468 for 39th title. Adding in those last 3 that are way beyond any others there does make it so that the HD DVD number is much lower than the Blu-ray number.

--Darin

Come on guys, we're all smart enough to figure out ways to slam each other without resorting to name calling. :cool:

Salesrank still doesn't tell us anything about volume, however...

I was trying to point it out nicely the first time by adding to what BrynRhys said. By the time you responded to that with 2 posts, including a :rolleyes: I figured you knew what your numbers represented. I can see that it was an honest mistake though.
I haven't checked that site, but it looks a little bit strange that the Blu-ray list goes from:

446. Tears of the Sun

for the 38th title to 1468 for 39th title. Adding in those last 3 that are way beyond any others there does make it so that the HD DVD number is much lower than the Blu-ray number.

--Darin

That's why I said several posts ago that I don't trust the numbers on that site. There's simply too many BDs and HD DVDs that should be ranked alongside other top-selling titles that are nowhere to be found. There's like a 35 page gap in the middle and that doesn't make any sense.

Salesrank still doesn't tell us anything about volume, however...

I agree and do not dispute this.

However the point of the thread is simply to provide evidence of a general trend.

I agree and do not dispute this.

However the point of the thread is simply to provide evidence of a general trend.

If you agree, then I don't understand your thread title.

And I still don't understand the evidence you're providing. What 'trend' is this thread showing?

That rankings of 300 HD titles among over 11,000 standard DVDs has been erratic for BD? That it has consistently resulted in higher rankings for HD DVD? That this likely doesn't mean much for either format, given that they're ranked with a very popular item (standard DVDs) during the holiday season?


I'll ask again: "evidence" of what? What do you think the charts at dvdwars.com show?

You know, the way I see it, it is absolutely phenomenal that DESPITE there being 500,000 PS3's, PLUS the Sammy, Plus the Panasonic, PLUS the Sony, PLUS the studio advantage, PLUS the huge marketing push in BB's and CC's, that HD DVD still holds a measurable lead. Does this not strike anyone as ridiculous?! Blu-ray supporters keep saying wait now until 2007 when there are a couple of million more PS3's, and Disney releases POTC, as though the playing field is not lopsided enough already. I mean, how much advantage does Blu-ray need before they finally MATCH HD DVD sales. Hopefully some studio execs will look at this, and instead of thinking how many PS3's there will me, will instead think that it's HD DVD that has the far greater potential to draw the huge attach rates. In the end, when there is a winner (if there is one), it won't matter how many PS3's there are since everyone will own a $100 HighDef player and then it will only be about buying the movies. To this end, HD DVD has shown their mettle.

reported.

I'm sorry you feel the need to call me names and personally insult people on this forum over a digital disc.How about we report you for voting in the A2 poll...when you don't even own a A2 player...2 can play that game. :rolleyes:

If you agree, then I don't understand your thread title.

And I still don't understand the evidence you're providing. What 'trend' is this thread showing?

That rankings of 300 HD titles among over 11,000 standard DVDs has been erratic for BD? That it has consistently resulted in higher rankings for HD DVD? That this likely doesn't mean much for either format, given that they're ranked with a very popular item (standard DVDs) during the holiday season?


I'll ask again: "evidence" of what? What do you think the charts at dvdwars.com show?


I cant believe you have to have this spelled out for you. The charts show an increasing sales rank of top BD titles at amazon.com

You know, the way I see it, it is absolutely phenomenal that DESPITE there being 500,000 PS3's, PLUS the Sammy, Plus the Panasonic, PLUS the Sony, PLUS the studio advantage, PLUS the huge marketing push in BB's and CC's, that HD DVD still holds a measurable lead. Does this not strike anyone as ridiculous?! Blu-ray supporters keep saying wait now until 2007 when there are a couple of million more PS3's, and Disney releases POTC, as though the playing field is not lopsided enough already. I mean, how much advantage does Blu-ray need before they finally MATCH HD DVD sales. Hopefully some studio execs will look at this, and instead of thinking how many PS3's there will me, will instead think that it's HD DVD that has the far greater potential to draw the huge attach rates. In the end, when there is a winner (if there is one), it won't matter how many PS3's there are since everyone will own a $100 HighDef player and then it will only be about buying the movies. To this end, HD DVD has shown their mettle.

Amen Brother!

I agree with you. I think HD-DVD could remain a "niche" market for several years to come, rabidly supported by a small fan base that remains loyal and buys almost everything released for it.

However, this time next year there will be close to if not over 10 million blu-ray players in homes around the world. Also, the number of movies available on blu-ray will be much larger than the number available on HD-DVD. This is something that Toshiba will not be able to touch.

Your projections are like the weather mans' .... he only has to be right 5% of the time to keep his job. Seriously, you have no idea how many will be sold or if BD or HDDVD will win and when. You are no different than the HD fanboys you are trying to slam

I cant believe you have to have this spelled out for you. The charts show an increasing sales rank of top BD titles at amazon.com

The only way from there is up

You know, the way I see it, it is absolutely phenomenal that DESPITE there being 500,000 PS3's, PLUS the Sammy, Plus the Panasonic, PLUS the Sony, PLUS the studio advantage, PLUS the huge marketing push in BB's and CC's, that HD DVD still holds a measurable lead. Does this not strike anyone as ridiculous?! Blu-ray supporters keep saying wait now until 2007 when there are a couple of million more PS3's, and Disney releases POTC, as though the playing field is not lopsided enough already. I mean, how much advantage does Blu-ray need before they finally MATCH HD DVD sales. Hopefully some studio execs will look at this, and instead of thinking how many PS3's there will me, will instead think that it's HD DVD that has the far greater potential to draw the huge attach rates. In the end, when there is a winner (if there is one), it won't matter how many PS3's there are since everyone will own a $100 HighDef player and then it will only be about buying the movies. To this end, HD DVD has shown their mettle.

Hear, hear.

How about we report you for voting in the A2 poll...when you don't even own a A2 player...2 can play that game. :rolleyes:

Because of what I do for a living I was able to preview one in my home. I will admit that the PQ was just as good as blu-ray but it froze up during king kong the only movie I had to play. I had to unplug the stupid thing to get it to turn off.

Anyway it has been returned to the office.

I guess it doesn't like you ;)

I'd say both formats have jumped suspiciously in the last week. I do see an advantage for Blu-ray right now in released titles and that certainly is causing a surge. Things should pick up and be hot n heavy next year when the studios get back to cranking out movies. Clearly there is demand. Great for HD in general.

reported.

I'm sorry you feel the need to call me names and personally insult people on this forum over a digital disc.
Oh shoot. Am I supposed to go to the principle's office now or what?

It's funny to me how you post the exact same thing as yoyoniner even after his thread dragged on for three pages about how the charts show NOTHING AT ALL.

The Situation of Another Market——Japen

http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20061215/bdhdvd.htm

2006 Software Market Share

BD 86% HD 14%

The data was got in Japenese Amazon.

Ok enough with the personal attacks. Challange the information NOT THE POSTER. if you see a problem post do not reply REPORT IT.

Thank you

I think it is pretty clear BR is coming on stronger now, but the question remains if there are twice as many or three times as many BR players on the market then HD DVD then why is HD DVD still outselling BR?

A better question might be, what makes you think HD DVD is outselling BR??? Amazon sales rankings are nearing parity, and that's only one source. The HD DVD forum has not seen fit to release relative sales data since August (when their lead was significantly less than the one extrapolated by fanboys from Amazon sales rankings). It's all how many angels can be made to dance on the head of a pin...

You know, the way I see it, it is absolutely phenomenal that DESPITE there being 500,000 PS3's, PLUS the Sammy, Plus the Panasonic, PLUS the Sony, PLUS the studio advantage, PLUS the huge marketing push in BB's and CC's, that HD DVD still holds a measurable lead. Does this not strike anyone as ridiculous?! Blu-ray supporters keep saying wait now until 2007 when there are a couple of million more PS3's, and Disney releases POTC, as though the playing field is not lopsided enough already. I mean, how much advantage does Blu-ray need before they finally MATCH HD DVD sales. Hopefully some studio execs will look at this, and instead of thinking how many PS3's there will me, will instead think that it's HD DVD that has the far greater potential to draw the huge attach rates. In the end, when there is a winner (if there is one), it won't matter how many PS3's there are since everyone will own a $100 HighDef player and then it will only be about buying the movies. To this end, HD DVD has shown their mettle.

No one, Sony included assumed that within a month that Blu Ray would just instantly blow HD out of the water. Even though Ive bought about 30 BD movies this month, most consumers pick up 1 or 2 a week. This will turn into a volume war and we are way to early into to decide anything is going decidely in way or the other.

You know, the way I see it, it is absolutely phenomenal that DESPITE there being 500,000 PS3's, PLUS the Sammy, Plus the Panasonic, PLUS the Sony, PLUS the studio advantage, PLUS the huge marketing push in BB's and CC's, that HD DVD still holds a measurable lead. Does this not strike anyone as ridiculous?! Blu-ray supporters keep saying wait now until 2007 when there are a couple of million more PS3's, and Disney releases POTC, as though the playing field is not lopsided enough already. I mean, how much advantage does Blu-ray need before they finally MATCH HD DVD sales. Hopefully some studio execs will look at this, and instead of thinking how many PS3's there will me, will instead think that it's HD DVD that has the far greater potential to draw the huge attach rates. In the end, when there is a winner (if there is one), it won't matter how many PS3's there are since everyone will own a $100 HighDef player and then it will only be about buying the movies. To this end, HD DVD has shown their mettle.

Yep, I agree.

You know, the way I see it, it is absolutely phenomenal that DESPITE there being 500,000 PS3's, PLUS the Sammy, Plus the Panasonic, PLUS the Sony, PLUS the studio advantage, PLUS the huge marketing push in BB's and CC's, that HD DVD still holds a measurable lead. Does this not strike anyone as ridiculous?! Blu-ray supporters keep saying wait now until 2007 when there are a couple of million more PS3's, and Disney releases POTC, as though the playing field is not lopsided enough already. I mean, how much advantage does Blu-ray need before they finally MATCH HD DVD sales. Hopefully some studio execs will look at this, and instead of thinking how many PS3's there will me, will instead think that it's HD DVD that has the far greater potential to draw the huge attach rates. In the end, when there is a winner (if there is one), it won't matter how many PS3's there are since everyone will own a $100 HighDef player and then it will only be about buying the movies. To this end, HD DVD has shown their mettle.

Agreed. I think the studios will realize that their best chance at reselling their catalog on a new format lies with HD-DVD, clearly.


No one, Sony included assumed that within a month that Blu Ray would just instantly blow HD out of the water.

That is not accurate. Sony sold everyone (studios included) on the premise that the PS3 would in fact end the format war extremely quickly. They sold everyone on the prospect of selling huge numbers of PS3 systems right out of the gate. Statements were made by Sony people alluding to the idea that the PS3 would instantly end HD-DVD, and there were many, many people on these forums who would parrot that same idea... some even made it into their signature.

Come on Mr. Krinkle, tell me why...?

Why do you post such inaccurate numbers, like:

about 1 million PS3s have been sold now

When in fact all of the available sales data puts the actual total of PS3 units sold at closer to half that number. You can’t believe Sony press releases, you have to look at numbers from impartial 3rd parties.

And how is Sony going to have “about 10 million units, if not more” sold by the end of 2007 when they are already seeing demand begin to dry up with just about 1/20 of that number in the marketplace? What is going to drive 9.5 million people to drop $500-$600 on a PS3 in 2007? There are no big games on the radar that would move that kind of hardware, even if the console were priced $200 less.

I might as well give up on pointing out that every PS3 sold does not equal a BluRay user.

Since some people in this thread were asking for it, here is Gamespot.com's direct comparison between some PS3 and 360 3rd party games:

http://www.gamespot.com/features/6162742/index.html?tag=topslot;title;3&om_act=convert&click=topslot

There are similar comparisons on IGN, 1up, etc. Pretty much all come to the same conclusion.

Second of all, they have only sold/shipped a little over 500,000 worldwide now. The total number of Japanese units sold up to last week was more than 308,000. Add the 197,000 from the North American launch and you're looking at 505,000 PS3s. Are you saying there have been no PS3s sold in North America since the mid November launch?

When in fact all of the available sales data puts the actual total of PS3 units sold at closer to half that number. You can’t believe Sony press releases, you have to look at numbers from impartial 3rd parties. Impartial 3rd parties like thedvdwars.com recently renamed as eproducts.com? (Why the rename though?)

vgcharts.org puts PS3s shipped at 390K in Japan (already outselling 360) and 620K in NAmericas as of this post. That means 1.01 million units have shipped.

While this is 1 million short of Sony's own projections and with only 8 days to go, this is more than 360 during the same time frame of its launch.

Agreed. I think the studios will realize that their best chance at reselling their catalog on a new format lies with HD-DVD, clearly. The only studio that will realize reselling of their catalog is Universal. Ponder on that for a while.


fuad

You know, the way I see it, it is absolutely phenomenal that DESPITE there being 500,000 PS3's, PLUS the Sammy, Plus the Panasonic, PLUS the Sony, PLUS the studio advantage, PLUS the huge marketing push in BB's and CC's, that HD DVD still holds a measurable lead. Does this not strike anyone as ridiculous?!I think HD DVD has been impressive in the US, but for anybody looking at the hardware numbers since a month or two ago until now, I don't see why they would think that HD DVD wouldn't still hold a lead on Amazon.com for software sales. Even if we were to say that long term we should count 20% of PS3s as Blu-ray players that people will get Blu-ray movies for, the number would likely be lower right after people get the system (I would expect that even most who will use it for movies in the long run would mostly concentrate on games right after they get it until they are a little bored with those and heavy marketing of BDs to PS3 owners hasn't even really started). So, for this example, let's say we count 15% right now and 20% a year from now and see where that would lead.

15% of 500,000 would be 75,000. I'm having a hard time imagining more than 50,000 standalone Blu-ray players in use right now, but maybe that is high or low. Anyway, that is what I am going to use to end up with 125,000 active players total on the Blu-ray side.

On the HD DVD side, they have claimed 70,000 with the first gen players for a while. And the add-on for the XBOX360 looks like maybe 125,000 right now to me (again, maybe high and maybe low). The HD-A2 seems to be in low supply, so I don't know what I should count, but I'm just going to count 5,000 and somebody can chime in if they have better info. Those numbers would put 200,000 on the HD DVD side.

Using those numbers, people can see that it would be 200,000 for HD DVD vs 125,000 for Blu-ray, so the HD DVD side really should sell more software if those numbers are close.

Now, what would those numbers mean for the future? If you go along with what I believe about the PS3 usage as a movie player most likely being higher in a year than today and it is 20%, that is going to be a lot of players in use. The XBOX360 add-on sales have been pretty impressive IMO, but hard to tell where they will top out as far as the attach rate they can get to since they seem to be somewhat supply constrained. The percentage really should be less than the PS3 because of the extra cost, but even 10% would be impressive and 15% would put a whole lot of HD DVD players out there in use.

I think things are already showing that those who felt that gamers would be irrelevant to this war were most likely wrong. If the HD DVD camp didn't have the add-on for the XBOX360 they would probably be behind in software sales right now. While the PS3 might not win the war for Blu-ray, one of the main reasons might be because the other side worked to neutralize that move with the add-on for the XBOX360. And if the PS3 had no Blu-ray playback capability and the XBOX360 had its add-on for HD DVD, the lead for HD DVD on the software side would most likely be much bigger than it seems to be right now.

I do find the buy.com numbers that basically show no lead for HD DVD and a comment from tsd2005 that another store owner has all of a sudden found that HD DVD is only outselling Blu-ray 10 to 8 to be interesting. I would love to hear the videoscan numbers for December when it is done, but not sure if we will be able to get those.

--Darin

So today shows that there is relatively little change from yesterday - both formats are again pretty stable in their numbers. I'm an HD DVD fan but I have to say that I'm impressed that BD hasn't yet experienced a sharper drop since their initial surge quite yet. Let's see what happens tomorrow! :eek:

(*Writes the above with his objective/non-biased hat on, no sarcasm, - really just enjoying to see these daily trends for the heck of it*)

Why are people so divided? I only own an HD-DVD player right now and about 18 HD-DVD's but I want a dual format player one that plays both. I dont see one format dying any time soon. I would love to have a player that played both. I keep hearing about them. I think if they did that and were a reasonable price the HD format would take off much faster.

Why are people so divided? I only own an HD-DVD player right now and about 18 HD-DVD's but I want a dual format player one that plays both. I dont see one format dying any time soon. I would love to have a player that played both. I keep hearing about them. I think if they did that and were a reasonable price the HD format would take off much faster.

People are so divided because most really dont want dual formats. In the long run it would be better for the consumers and the studios to just produce one standard format which means one format has to win. We all have our opinions on who will win and why but the sooner it happens, the better for us all.

BR is on it's way down again-

http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/graphs/salesrank-1-1-recent30.jpg

BR is on it's way down again-

http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/graphs/salesrank-1-1-recent30.jpg

Doesn't look like much of a drop to me. Looks more like a slight fluctuation.

^^^Yeah, the above actually shows that BD's sales rank has increased since yesterday and HD DVD's has dropped. So what are you talking about, "boo"? Let's see what happens tomorrow...

We spend more time arguing sales numbers of both formats. Do you guys ever have time to watch the movies? :)

At the end of the day (while I prefer HD DVD) I do own both and I have adjusted to two formats. I personally could care less about which corporation makes or loses more money.

+1 I just want quality movies. its why I'm an hd-dvd fan. I will take buggy, slow hardware over 2nd rate pq any day. Since I have both formats its interesting to me that bd is by far more slick/consumer friendly yet hd-dvd (to me) is far and away the superior product when it comes to the brass tacks of watching the movies.

Sales are definitely dropping for BDs again.

Top HD DVD: Batman Begins, ranked 233.
Top BD: X3, ranked 1126.

That's just not good, no matter how you slice it.

Sony definitely screwed themselves by including Talladega Nights, one of the worst looking BDs (from what I hear) with the PS3. It wasn't even the full version so they could make fans buy it a second time for the features. Not cool.

I have no idea why so many of you are focused on the software sales. The only thing that matters now is hardware sales. Only hardware sales will determine the software sales down the road. Without enough hardware sales, any format is doomed to fail.

Which hardware format do you think is selling like hot cakes?

Which hardware format do you think is selling like hot cakes?

As far as standalones, without a doubt the HD-A2 from Toshiba.

As far as standalones, without a doubt the HD-A2 from Toshiba.

I just took mine back on Saturday. Those things are great players overall, but miserably sloooooooooooow.

I have no idea why so many of you are focused on the software sales. The only thing that matters now is hardware sales. Only hardware sales will determine the software sales down the road. Without enough hardware sales, any format is doomed to fail.

Which hardware format do you think is selling like hot cakes?

Top selling BD player:
Samsung, ranked 1096

Top selling HD DVD player:
Toshiba HD-A2, ranked 494

Seems pretty clear to me. :cool:

I just took mine back on Saturday. Those things are great players overall, but miserably sloooooooooooow.

The HD-A2? I heard it was just as fast as the Samsung. The HD-A1 is pretty slow to start up however. Not a big deal if you can handle waiting 45 seconds, but I understand for some it's a deal-breaker.

I have no idea why so many of you are focused on the software sales. The only thing that matters now is hardware sales. Only hardware sales will determine the software sales down the road. Without enough hardware sales, any format is doomed to fail.

Which hardware format do you think is selling like hot cakes?

Blu-ray players by far

You guys are aware that top Blu-ray titles are sold out on Amazon right? That chart is meaningless for the time being. Once they stock up, we'll see.

You guys are aware that top Blu-ray titles are sold out on Amazon right? That chart is meaningless for the time being. Once they stock up, we'll see.

All that means is that they didn't get enough to meet demand. That could be 5 people. :p

Top selling BD player:
Samsung, ranked 1096

Top selling HD DVD player:
Toshiba HD-A2, ranked 494

Seems pretty clear to me. :cool:

if u add ps3 as a blu-ray player: more than 500,000.

seem like blu-ray hardware is selling like hotcakes.

if u add ps3 as a blu-ray player: more than 500,000.

seem like blu-ray hardware is selling like hotcakes.

Those were top selling, not top sold.

Those were top selling, not top sold.

huh? there are more than 500,000 ps3 in household right now...how is that being sold?

huh? there are more than 500,000 ps3 in household right now...how is that being sold?

And probably 5% are using it as a BD player, as is obvious by the sales ranks.

You guys are aware that top Blu-ray titles are sold out on Amazon right? That chart is meaningless for the time being. Once they stock up, we'll see.

What would you infer from the fact that M:I:III HD DVD is sold out at walmart.com?
It lists immediately after the Blu-ray version in the Top Sellers list (within its category). I wonder if that is the online store only? Must be. I can't imagine it is sold out in the B&Ms.

4 of the top 96 Blu-rays sold out at walmart.com (Nacho Libre, KKBB, Training Day, Rumor Has It), 8 of the top 96 HD DVDs sold out (Polar Express, Riddick, Fear & Loathing, Willy Wonka, M:I:III, Bourne Supremacy, Van Helsing, 2F2F).

And probably 5% are using it as a BD player, as is obvious by the sales ranks.There is some truth to this...within our entire family...there is 4 PS3's total...My family is the only one who uses it as a BD player. Also 2 of my neighbors have them and neither is interested in using them as a BR player. I use mine as a BD player only because I am not a gamer. To me this is really not a good sign for software sales using the PS3 as a player. I am only quoting what I see. ;)

BTW...Pearl Harbor looks awesome...a must buy!

You guys are aware that top Blu-ray titles are sold out on Amazon right? That chart is meaningless for the time being. Once they stock up, we'll see.

That's the latest excuse? Wow, you never seize to amaze me.
Maybe production of BD-50 is a bit slow then? Or production of Playstation 3 games is more important? Who knows.

That's the latest excuse? Wow, you never seize to amaze me.
Maybe production of BD-50 is a bit slow then? Or production of Playstation 3 games is more important? Who knows.

It's not excuse, it's fact. X-men 3 is remarkably at 700 and it's still a 6-11 days wait. So basically it's a preorder, and won't ship right way. While all the top HD DVD titles are in stock and can ship next day if you want it to. That's major convenience. Do you honestly believe that Superman Returns on Blu-ray which was outselling the HD DVD version a week ago (abeit just one day before it sold out) is suddenly at 4000 if it was in stock? :rolleyes:

The Amazon sales ranking mean little because they are just a ratio between items sold. When HD-DVD was ranked 1,000 overall and Bluray was ranked 3,000, it could have been HD-DVD was averaging 1000 sales per disc vs. BD 300 per disc.

Then as other products sell differently, the sales rank changes, even though both formats are averaging the same number of sales. If DVD sales as a whole increased greatly as Christmas approached, the rankings of both would appear to go down (which they did). Then there is a cut-off point where DVD's won't arrive in time for Christmas. Sales of DVD plummets to almost a standstill. This makes the sales of HDDVD and BD jump up (which they did).

So even though the chart rankings jump all over the place, sales of BD and HDDVD discs remain exactly the same on average # of discs sold per day. Without knowing the rankings of other item in the same catagory, the total number of items sold (in the same category), and the distribution density of all items in the category (for all we know sales ranks 1-1000 only differ by one unit sold, making them all nearly identical as far as units sold), the numbers are basically meaningless.

While something like DVDwars might be fun to look at, it is almost meaningless. All it really tells is that one retailer is selling more of 10 HD-DVD discs when compared to 10 other (often different) Bluray discs.

There is some truth to this...within our entire family...there is 4 PS3's total...My family is the only one who uses it as a BD player. Also 2 of my neighbors have them and neither is interested in using them as a BR player. I use mine as a BD player only because I am not a gamer. To me this is really not a good sign for software sales using the PS3 as a player. I am only quoting what I see. ;)

BTW...Pearl Harbor looks awesome...a must buy!

Do you really think that ratio will remain static.

As Christmas 2007 approaches and Blu-Ray hits the mainstream I'm guessing these PS3's will increasingly be used for Blu-Ray playback.

Do you really think that ratio will remain static.

As Christmas 2007 approaches and Blu-Ray hits the mainstream I'm guessing these PS3's will increasingly be used for Blu-Ray playback.


It is clear that PS3 is finishing third in the Next Gen Game wars and BR is lagging in the Next Gen Video wars. So unless a failing format can prop up a failing format, I don't think things will change much.

The ONLY thing can make or break HD DVD or BRD is white hot software.

LOTR, Star Wars Etc must have titles will push people off the fence

You are joking right?

The PS3 will outsell the 360 in no time at all while the Wii is a cool piece of hardware, but isn't competing directly with the PS3/360.

As for BR vs HD-DVD, the difference in sales between the two is negliable, yet HD-DVD is running full steam ahead, BR has barely hit it's stride!


Edit, just read your sig!

Enjoy HD-DVD while you can.

I have both formats and am well aware of the (justified) insecurirites HD-DVD owners have!

Those release schedules are damn worrying aren't they!

Just an FYI, Amazon sales rankings do not actually take into account whether an item is in stock or not. For example, the #20 selling BD is Crank which doesn't even come out until January 7th.

I don't know the point of arguing against the Blu-ray advantages. I admit, there are probably close to 1,000,000 PS3's which is a big advantage. I admit, Blu-ray has the power of Sony, Panasonic, and Pioneer stand alone players which is a big advantage. I admit, they have Disney, Fox, Sony, MGM, and Columbia exclusives which is a big advantage. I admit, they rule Best Buy and Circuit City which is a big advantage. OK. I also admit that it is absurd that with all these advantages, they will need MORE PS3's, MORE CE's, MORE and better releases from their exclusive studios, before they match HD DVD in sales. It's quite a numbers game for Blu-ray. It you can't win on merit, then just suffocate the competition. Good job.

I guess you haven't watched any of the new Blu-Ray releases.

Don't worry, just keep repeating to yourself BR is inferior, it may come true!

Never said Blu-ray was inferior, just that it can't win on merit. Also, you ignored the rest of what I said. Typical.

Jeff Lampert, how does Blu Ray need more CEs? They have everyone already except for Toshiba, bro. lol.

You are joking right?

The PS3 will outsell the 360 in no time at all while the Wii is a cool piece of hardware, but isn't competing directly with the PS3/360.

As for BR vs HD-DVD, the difference in sales between the two is negliable, yet HD-DVD is running full steam ahead, BR has barely hit it's stride!


Edit, just read your sig!

Enjoy HD-DVD while you can.

I have both formats and am well aware of the (justified) insecurirites HD-DVD owners have!

Those release schedules are damn worrying aren't they!

The only thing troubling about that release schedule is how many titles will be delayed because the BDP-S1 and the Samsung still can't handle BD-J.

3 titles so far have not been able to play on the Samsung:

Speed
LXG
The Descent

This has NEVER happened with an HD DVD, whihc has had iHD up and running since launch. Enjoying your video commentaries on BD? (snaps fingers) Oh yeah, you CAN'T! Isn't that troubling to you at all? And you are awful reliant on PS3 making or breaking the format. Yet, only roughly 10% of PS3 owners even have an HDTV. And let's not forget that Sony in their infinite wisdon decided to pack in the worst looking BD of all time! How many will be swayed to buy into the format because of Taledega Nights?

The only thing troubling about that release schedule is how many titles will be delayed because the BDP-S1 and the Samsung still can't handle BD-J.

3 titles so far have not been able to play on the Samsung:

Speed
LXG
The Descent

This has NEVER happened with an HD DVD, whihc has had iHD up and running since launch. Enjoying your video commentaries on BD? (snaps fingers) Oh yeah, you CAN'T! Isn't that troubling to you at all? And you are awful reliant on PS3 making or breaking the format. Yet, only roughly 10% of PS3 owners even have an HDTV. And let's not forget that Sony in their infinite wisdon decided to pack in the worst looking BD of all time! How many will be swayed to buy into the format because of Taledega Nights?

According to about everyone besides you....The Descent does play on the firmware upgraded Samsung....and hd dvd's freeze up at will because of the bargain bin processors used in the hd dvd players.

At least these BD's have an excuse ....and it will be corrected...so I am not seeing this as anywhere near as bad as the hd dvd's freezing randomly problem.

According to about everyone besides you....The Descent does play on the firmware upgraded Samsung....and hd dvd's freeze up at will because of the bargain bin processors used in the hd dvd players.

At least these BD's have an excuse ....and it will be corrected...so I am not seeing this as anywhere near as bad as the hd dvd's freezing randomly problem.

You mean like the PS3? ;)

As for BR vs HD-DVD, the difference in sales between the two is negliable, yet HD-DVD is running full steam ahead, BR has barely hit it's stride!

Do you have any particular evidence to back up this statement? We have barely any sales data that is known, so to claim that the difference is "negliable" is questionable. Do you even know what the difference is?

As for HD DVD running "full steam ahead" and BD "barely hitting its stride"... well, I'm not even sure I understand what you mean by that.

You mean like the PS3? ;)

I didn't realise there was a freezing problem playing BD on the PS3 if thats what your suggesting... as I haven't been able to get my hands on one yet.

I do have a 360 and heard theres no freezing with the add on....now if it only had hdmi and the ability to do lossless sound.

I didn't realise there was a freezing problem playing BD on the PS3 if thats what your suggesting... as I haven't been able to get my hands on one yet.

I do have a 360 and heard theres no freezing with the add on....now if it only had hdmi and the ability to do lossless sound.

Not only that, but it downconverts the image to 480p if your set does not accept 720p. I believe there is a firmware upgrade for that now, but you have to probably have to be hooked up to broadband to get it. And of course if you want lossless sound you have to buy a new receiver which will be outdated in a few months when HDMI 1.3 and lossless decoding starts showing up.

Not only that, but it downconverts the image to 480p if your set does not accept 720p. I believe there is a firmware upgrade for that now, but you have to probably have to be hooked up to broadband to get it. And of course if you want lossless sound you have to buy a new receiver which will be outdated in a few months when HDMI 1.3 and lossless decoding starts showing up.

Have broadband...and my Optoma H-78 pj accepts 1080p....so I am still searching for the Holy Grail...errr the PS3 that is :)

I didn't realise there was a freezing problem playing BD on the PS3 if thats what your suggesting... as I haven't been able to get my hands on one yet.

I do have a 360 and heard theres no freezing with the add on....now if it only had hdmi and the ability to do lossless sound.

My PS3 hasn't frozen once during BD playback and I've watched around 20 movies on it. Several others have reported it but it doesn't seem to be something that happens on ALL PS3s. Not to mention many people commenting on this don't have a PS3 and some who do haven't read the manual. Sure there are some who legitamitely have a problem with their PS3s however there are also some who don't have it properly ventilated or set up.

Fettastic - no you don't have to have the PS3 connected to broadband to run updates. You can simply download it on your PC and save it to any supported storage media.

So much misinformation on these boards.

My PS3 hasn't frozen once during BD playback and I've watched around 20 movies on it. Several others have reported it but it doesn't seem to be something that happens on ALL PS3s. Not to mention many people commenting on this don't have a PS3 and some who do haven't read the manual. Sure there are some who legitamitely have a problem with their PS3s however there are also some who don't have it properly ventilated or set up.

Fettastic - no you don't have to have the PS3 connected to broadband to run updates. You can simply download it on your PC and save it to any supported storage media.

So much misinformation on these boards.

I have a Mac at home, pre-USB and my PC at work is also pre-USB. So I guess I'm screwed right? But even if I DID have USB, I'd need one of those portable drive thingees right? Yeah, that's only $70! So what's my alternative? That's right, nothing. Sorry Fett, if you want your PS3 to actually, you know, WORK, you have to buy a new PC and a memory stick. :rolleyes:

I have a Mac at home, pre-USB and my PC at work is also pre-USB. So I guess I'm screwed right? But even if I DID have USB, I'd need one of those portable drive thingees right? Yeah, that's only $70! So what's my alternative? That's right, nothing. Sorry Fett, if you want your PS3 to actually, you know, WORK, you have to buy a new PC and a memory stick. :rolleyes:

I think you can burn the update to CD, but I'm not sure.

And, USB flash drives can be had for ~$10 or less in some cases.

I think you can burn the update to CD, but I'm not sure.

And, USB flash drives can be had for ~$10 or less in some cases.

I'm not paying a red penny to make the PS3 work properly.

I have a Mac at home, pre-USB and my PC at work is also pre-USB. So I guess I'm screwed right? But even if I DID have USB, I'd need one of those portable drive thingees right? Yeah, that's only $70! So what's my alternative? That's right, nothing. Sorry Fett, if you want your PS3 to actually, you know, WORK, you have to buy a new PC and a memory stick. :rolleyes:
You actually need an HDTV or other compatible display for it to display movies in HD too!

I have a TV at home, pre-HD and my projector at work is also pre-HD. So I guess I'm screwed right? You mean I have to pay $ for a display just to get my PS3 to work right? What a ripoff.

I have had the PS3 for about a month now, and have experienced no problems at all. The BD playback is incredible, and I have watched roughly 10 movies so far.

Quote;
This has NEVER happened with an HD DVD, whihc has had iHD up and running since launch. Enjoying your video commentaries on BD? (snaps fingers) Oh yeah, you CAN'T! Isn't that troubling to you at all? And you are awful reliant on PS3 making or breaking the format. Yet, only roughly 10% of PS3 owners even have an HDTV. And let's not forget that Sony in their infinite wisdon decided to pack in the worst looking BD of all time! How many will be swayed to buy into the format because of Taledega Nights?

I was watching World Trade Center and it had video commentaries that you could pull up while watching the movie. I don't understand what you mean by "you can't".

You actually need an HDTV or other compatible display for it to display movies in HD too!

I have a TV at home, pre-HD and my projector at work is also pre-HD. So I guess I'm screwed right? You mean I have to pay $ for a display just to get my PS3 to work right? What a ripoff.

Well it would be pointless to buy an HD player if I didn't have an HD capable display now wouldn't it? Would it also be pointless to buy an HD player....if I don't have broadband? A portable PC drive?

See how that arguement makes ZERO sense?

You actually need an HDTV or other compatible display for it to display movies in HD too!

I have a TV at home, pre-HD and my projector at work is also pre-HD. So I guess I'm screwed right? You mean I have to pay $ for a display just to get my PS3 to work right? What a ripoff.

That has to be one of the worst analogies I've ever seen. Talk about bending over backwards to rationalize why a unit isn't working properly out of the box...

I was watching World Trade Center and it had video commentaries that you could pull up while watching the movie. I don't understand what you mean by "you can't".

I didn't know about this because I thought it was a bad movie so I haven't bought it.

Are you saying that periodically during the film a picture-in-a-picture pops up with video? Or is it a "white rabbit" thing where a symbol comes on the screen, you click "enter" and it branches to a video segment?

You've obviously already got a PC since you participate on this forum. You can buy a USB card for your PC for about $7 and a 512mb USB drive for about $14. Being an HDTV, PC, and PS3 owner, I don't imagine that $20 will set you back too much.

You've obviously already got a PC since you participate on this forum. You can buy a USB card for your PC for about $7 and a 512mb USB drive for about $14. Being an HDTV, PC, and PS3 owner, I don't imagine that $20 will set you back too much.

No, I don't own a PS3 because of problems like this. And it will be a REAL cold day in hell when I start buying parts for my company PC.

What Fettastic is saying is he doesn't have a PC at home. He uses his work PC. No flame intended in those comments....just trying to clear up the picture

I didn't know about this because I thought it was a bad movie so I haven't bought it.

Are you saying that periodically during the film a picture-in-a-picture pops up with video? Or is it a "white rabbit" thing where a symbol comes on the screen, you click "enter" and it branches to a video segment?


During the movie you press the Square or Circle button on the controller (I don't remember which one) and it brings up a menu on the bottom of the screen. Select commentary and it gives you the option of listening to either Oliver Stones commentary or the firefighters that were actually trapped in the movie. All this while the movie is playing. There were other options, but I don't remember them all. It was a cool feature.

Well it would be pointless to buy an HD player if I didn't have an HD capable display now wouldn't it? Would it also be pointless to buy an HD player....if I don't have broadband? A portable PC drive?

See how that arguement makes ZERO sense?
The point is that the thing is designed to interact with other technologies. You don't need an HDTV for it to work, but you do need one for it to work at its full potential. Updates to the firmware are expected to optimize potential.
You can use:
1. Broadband connection.
2. CD-R
3. USB flash
If you don't even have those available, why are you so concerned with optimizing a next-gen electronics device?

That has to be one of the worst analogies I've ever seen. Talk about bending over backwards to rationalize why a unit isn't working properly out of the box...
Are you saying that no consumer electronics equipment should ever have to be updated or modified? That it should do everything you want it to do out of the box? What about PCs? Should you never have to install any software on it?

This relates loosely to the "it's only a video game" argument. The PS3 is designed to be more than simply a video game console. If it were solely a console, then I agree that it should be static and limited. However, it's more than that and therefore the software that drives it should be dynamic, much like a PC.

Are you saying that no consumer electronics equipment should ever have to be updated or modified?

No, I don't believe I said anything resembling that.

That it should do everything you want it to do out of the box?

Everything that it's supposed to do (i.e. -- work as advertised)? Yes, absolutely.

What about PCs? Should you never have to install any software on it?

Again with the bad analogies.

I shouldn't have to buy anything additional for my PC (or any other device) to work as advertised.

Obviously if I want my PC (or any other device) to do anything over and above what it already does, then I'm free to spend $$$ and upgrade. But if my new PC locks up every time I try to run Excel, I don't consider an answer of "spend additional $$$ to install additional stuff" an acceptable answer. It should simply be able to run Excel properly from the start. Or the company that sold me the PC should fix it at their expense so it works properly.

This relates loosely to the "it's only a video game" argument. The PS3 is designed to be more than simply a video game console. If it were solely a console, then I agree that it should be static and limited. However, it's more than that and therefore the software that drives it should be dynamic, much like a PC.

To me, that's taking dynamic to a whole new level. We're not talking about adding new funcationality months/years down the road. We're talking about errors in the system that are happening within the first weeks of purchase.

To not have a way for someone like Fett to fix those problems without using additional equipment (that the person may or may not have) is pretty unreasonable for a $500+ device.

Ultimately, Sony wants these things in tons of households. "Average Joe" households who's eyes glaze over when you talk about USB cards. What about them?

Ultimately, Sony wants these things in tons of households. "Average Joe" households who's eyes glaze over when you talk about USB cards. What about them?
Well, yes, you do have a point there. But what is the alternative? I certainly wouldn't want any new tech device to stay exactly as it is at release forever. That might work well for dedicated one trick ponies, but not in this case. It would also work with 2nd and 3rd generation equipment once the CE companies know what hurdles to overcome. For example, if you built and released a standard DVD player you already know the DVDs on the market and can test them with your new hardware before deployment.

PS3 was designed long before any of the current crop of movies were on the market. I'm glad that they put in a contingency for updating firmware to correct unforseen problems. There is no way to accurately anticipate what errors will occur.

If Sony required some sort of exclusive or non standard way to update the firmware that meant buying new equipment specifically for that one and only purpose, then I'd be as pissed as the next guy. But these are existing technologies that already exist in the marketplace, are in widespread use, and have many other purposes. I really don't see it as a huge problem.

Do you really think that ratio will remain static.

As Christmas 2007 approaches and Blu-Ray hits the mainstream I'm guessing these PS3's will increasingly be used for Blu-Ray playback.Well if you go by what is happening in my family then yes. Not one of these PS3's are in their main viewing areas...they are in the kids bedrooms on non HDTV's. To be honest I could care less as I am covered either way. ;)

Well, yes, you do have a point there. But what is the alternative?
The alternative would be for Sony to send out the patch/upgrade on a CD to the owners. Its not that big a deal really.
J

The alternative would be for Sony to send out the patch/upgrade on a CD to the owners. Its not that big a deal really.
J
That's actually a good idea.

Edit: It's a good idea for J6P. If they did this for everyone with every update, the cost would be prohibitive. I'd rather just download it myself. It's easier and quicker.

That's actually a good idea.

Edit: It's a good idea for J6P. If they did this for everyone with every update, the cost would be prohibitive. I'd rather just download it myself. It's easier and quicker.

You know what would be even better? Making sure it works as advertised before it hits store shelves. This whole mentality of "Sure it's screwed now, but we'll fix it with a patch later" is crap. And yes, I'm talking about the HD-A1 too. But at least I don't have to buy anything extra and spend my time downloading crap that may or may not get corrupted in the process and ruin my machine with it.

I have a Mac at home, pre-USB and my PC at work is also pre-USB. So I guess I'm screwed right? But even if I DID have USB, I'd need one of those portable drive thingees right? Yeah, that's only $70! So what's my alternative? That's right, nothing. Sorry Fett, if you want your PS3 to actually, you know, WORK, you have to buy a new PC and a memory stick. :rolleyes:


I don't care. The point is you were spreading misinformation and I simply corrected you. I could careless if you want to use the alternative methods to update a machine you don't have... I do care if you are spreading misinformation to others.

You said you have to have it connected to broadband to update it. You don't. End of discussion.

You know what would be even better? Making sure it works as advertised before it hits store shelves. This whole mentality of "Sure it's screwed now, but we'll fix it with a patch later" is crap. And yes, I'm talking about the HD-A1 too. But at least I don't have to buy anything extra and spend my time downloading crap that may or may not get corrupted in the process and ruin my machine with it.
I will concede that it should work out of the box. I agree completely with that.

Once the technology is well established and commonplace and all of the wrinkles have been ironed out, I imagine that the units will ship with the latest firmware that the average Joe will never feel the need to update. As it stands now, these new toys are all still in the "early adopter" stages.

Is it frustrating that we're essentially beta testers for these companies? Sure. But it's not realistic to think that the major CE corporations are going to delay the release of their new technologies so that they can test and correct for every conceivable possibility.

Never said Blu-ray was inferior, just that it can't win on merit. Also, you ignored the rest of what I said. Typical.

Neither format has so much as made a ripple in the mainstream, but only Blu-Ray has the marketing potential and catalogue to push on in 2007 and beyond.

For HD-DVD, other than a few new blockbuster releases, this is as good as it gets.

Basically HD-DVD will only 'succeed' so long as both formats are failures.

According to about everyone besides you....The Descent does play on the firmware upgraded Samsung....and hd dvd's freeze up at will because of the bargain bin processors used in the hd dvd players.

At least these BD's have an excuse ....and it will be corrected...so I am not seeing this as anywhere near as bad as the hd dvd's freezing randomly problem.

These are the kind of rumours and misinformation HD-DVD supporters cling to, it does the format no good. They should be complaining about the complacent attitude Toshiba and the studios are taking with HD-DVD.

I own an A1 and it's the slowest, glitchiest piece of crap I've ever owned!

It produces a great picture, but everthing else is so, so poor!

The Samsungs a dream machine by comparison, AND produces a great picture with the upgraded firmware.

You said you have to have it connected to broadband to update it. You don't. End of discussion.

I said you PROBABLY have to have broadband to get it. See? I didn't say you HAD to have it. I'm acknowledging that I don't know how it works, but the point is that Sony certainly isn't making upgrades easy to acces for j6p.

These are the kind of rumours and misinformation HD-DVD supporters cling to, it does the format no good. They should be complaining about the complacent attitude Toshiba and the studios are taking with HD-DVD.

I own an A1 and it's the slowest, glitchiest piece of crap I've ever owned!

It produces a great picture, but everthing else is so, so poor!

The Samsungs a dream machine by comparison, AND produces a great picture with the upgraded firmware.

Why don't you come over to my house and I'll show you firsthand the "rumours and misinformation" of The Descent not working on an updated Samsung.

Do you have any particular evidence to back up this statement? We have barely any sales data that is known, so to claim that the difference is "negliable" is questionable. Do you even know what the difference is?

As for HD DVD running "full steam ahead" and BD "barely hitting its stride"... well, I'm not even sure I understand what you mean by that.

It's the same 'evidence that HD-DVD supporters constantly throw about from Amazon etc., it's more trends that hard sales figures.

As for BR hitting it's stride, thats quite easy to understand, we now have BD50's in abundance, PS3 coming into stock, standalone players hitting the shelves with reduced prices and a tidle wave of AAA and blockbuster releases coming on stream.

HD-DVD, if anything, is showing the format cannot maintain it's impressive release schedule from 2006, the releases ARE drying up.

I'm acknowledging that I don't know how it works


Classic... at least you admit it I guess.

HD-DVD, if anything, is showing the format cannot maintain it's impressive release schedule from 2006, the releases ARE drying up.


What are you talking about? Dreamworks and New Line haven't even started yet and Weinstein and HBO are just beginning! Let's not forget that Universal also owns NBC so they might have a couple little shows on there they might want to release in high def. And of course Paramount is releasing to both formats, but somehow HD DVD is "drying up"? Universal has released like 2 doxzen titles and their all done now?

MY GOD MAN! See how far you've retreated into your own little world, just outside the real one the rest of us share? Talk about spreading misinformation! :eek:

Well if you go by what is happening in my family then yes. Not one of these PS3's are in their main viewing areas...they are in the kids bedrooms on non HDTV's. To be honest I could care less as I am covered either way. ;)

But thats the trogan horse theory.

Players are in housholds, they MAY not be interested in BR at this precise time, but when the marketing kicks in and BR begins to replace DVD these housholds which gradually switch over from DVD to BR.

Classic... at least you admit it I guess.

So because I'm not the expert on all things PS3, that somehow completely invalidates the well-known problems with the system? :confused:

Or are you saying that yes, Sony DOES send out CDs with firmware updates on them? Because if not, what is your point?

Please, in the name of all things holy Mr. "I've got 19 posts and ready to flame", SCHOOL ME! :cool:

What are you talking about? Dreamworks and New Line haven't even started yet and Weinstein and HBO are just beginning! Let's not forget that Universal also owns NBC so they might have a couple little shows on there they might want to release in high def. And of course Paramount is releasing to both formats, but somehow HD DVD is "drying up"? Universal has released like 2 doxzen titles and their all done now?

MY GOD MAN! See how far you've retreated into your own little world, just outside the real one the rest of us share? Talk about spreading misinformation! :eek:

Look at the release schedule, it's absolutely awfull!

Sure CES may give a little hope, but BR will also preview big hitters at the show.

I said you PROBABLY have to have broadband to get it. See? I didn't say you HAD to have it. I'm acknowledging that I don't know how it works, but the point is that Sony certainly isn't making upgrades easy to acces for j6p.
Let me get to the point and move on.

- Early adopters pay the price with new technology. First with their money, then with the frustration of firmware upgrades.
- Yes, it should work out of the box.
- There is no way any CE corportation is going through the time, expense, and extended delays to test every possible scenario.
- Once the tech becomes commonplace and mainstream, it will be cheaper and more reliable.
- J6P will wait until it is and so should you. Of course, if you haven't even made the move to USB yet, then it may take you some time.

Look at the release schedule, it's absolutely awfull!

Sure CES may give a little hope, but BR will also preview big hitters at the show.

And fewer people are buying BD than are buying HD DVD. HD DVD are getting heaped praise upon them while BD keeps a-stumblin'. Heck, just compare the number of people in this forum compared to those in the HD DVD forums! Keep in mind that propbably half hte people here are just HD DVD fans checkin' out the competition!

But I'm sure you're right, BD is steamrolling over HD DVD. :rolleyes:

Let me get to the point and move on.

- Early adopters pay the price with new technology. First with their money, then with the frustration of firmware upgrades.

I have no problem with that, so long as it is easy to upgrade. Sony makes it difficult.

- There is no way any CE corportation is going through the time, expense, and extended delays to test every possible scenario.

What happened to "The PS3 is the most tested BD player ever created"? And what's to test? Does it work or doesn't it? Sony doesn't have the money to check these things? It's not like there are 30 different HDTV technologies. There's like 6. Every time they showed the thing it had fewer and fewer ports on it. Now they knew all along they couldn't do what they said initially, but they decided to lie anyway.

- Once the tech becomes commonplace and mainstream, it will be cheaper and more reliable.

Is that what Sony is hoping for? That people will hold out for a year or two so it can actually get reliable?

- J6P will wait until it is and so should you. Of course, if you haven't even made the move to USB yet, then it may take you some time.

I have a Mac. The reason Mac doesn't rule the world is two-fold. They trusted that Bill Gates wouldn't rip them off when they asked him to help with programming, and they don't break. My Mac has never needed service and is 10 years old. How many PCs can you say that about? In short, I haven't NEEDED to upgrade, unlike PC owners who are triple, quadruple and sextiple dipping a computer because the old one is a POS that keeps breaking. Maybe the PC crowd is used to getting crap that never works the first time out, as a Mac and HD DVD owner, I'm not.

Like Canada really counts. lol Once the sport of hockey is offically cancelled then more kids can stay inside and play video games.

P.S. Just joking around. I dont need all of canada on here blasting me. But on a serious note I hope all the canadians on here who have said sony hasnt sent any PS3s to Canada need to go to your store.

Boy you got off lucky with your P.S. ;) I was getting ready to blast ya. But you have me in tears about Hokey officially cancelled. Funny :D

BTW! Who going to cancel it? The NFL? Oh! An because it's a country (officially and an excellent one) it's should be spelled Canada, nor canada. :eek:

I have no problem with that, so long as it is easy to upgrade. Sony makes it difficult.
It took me all of 5 minutes to update my firmware. It wasn't difficult in the least.
What happened to "The PS3 is the most tested BD player ever created"? And what's to test? Does it work or doesn't it? Sony doesn't have the money to check these things? It's not like there are 30 different HDTV technologies. There's like 6. Every time they showed the thing it had fewer and fewer ports on it. Now they knew all along they couldn't do what they had initially, but they decided to lie anyway.
I don't know of anyone who claims the "most tested BD player" thing. But even if it were a widespread claim, how many players are there? It's more tested than five other players? That means a 6 month old technology should work everytime out of the box? It's not mature technology. There is no way to anticipate every possible issue. It's not realistic. 1st generation technology rarely works without hiccups.
Is that what Sony is hoping for? That people will hold out for a year or two so it can actually get reliable?
Again, no company will spend the time or money to cover every single possibility. Do you think that Sony will hold out a year or two to make it absolutely reliable before releasing it?
I have a Mac. The reason Mac doesn't rule the world is two-fold. They trusted that Bill Gates wouldn't rip them off when they brought him into the fold to help with programming, and they don't break. My Mac has never needed service and is 10 years old. How many PCs can you say that about? In short, I haven't NEEDED to upgrade, unlike PC owners who are triple, quadruple and setiple dipping a computer becasue the old one is a POS that keeps breaking. Maybe the PC crowd is sued to getting crap that never works the first time out, as a Mac and HD DVD owner, I'm not.
Do you have first generation Mac? Did they make improvements over the very first one? Of course they did. Technology changes. Bugs are discovered. Improvements are made.

It's the same 'evidence that HD-DVD supporters constantly throw about from Amazon etc., it's more trends that hard sales figures.

So you just stated that "the difference in sales between the two is negliable" when you have no sales information at all? Come on...

I realize that some HD DVD people are spouting crap too, but that doesn't mean you have to add to it. You have no clue what the sales difference is at all, let alone that it is negligable.

only Blu-Ray has the marketing potential and catalogue to push on in 2007 and beyond.

Huh?

For HD-DVD, other than a few new blockbuster releases, this is as good as it gets.

That's crap. Without even considering the fact that some BD studios may support HD DVD down the road, you still have 3 *major* studios (Warner, Universal, and Paramount) that haven't even scratched the surface of their catalogs.

The Matrix, Titanic, Jurassic Park, Jaws, E.T., Lord of the Rings, Wizard of Oz, Forrest Gump, Harry Potter, Star Trek, Meet the Fockers, Ben-Hur, Twister, The 10 Commandments, Indiana Jones, Austin Powers, Doctor Zhivago, The Exorcist, Back to the Future, Grease, Ocean's 11, Top Gun, The Godfather

That's just a small handful of the huge box office titles that can still be released on HD DVD. And there are thousands of others too. This isn't "as good as it gets" -- it's the first year of a new format launch. Titles are going to be slow to come out and somewhat mediocre. The same thing is happening with BD, in case you didn't notice. Frankly, the fact that we've gotten decent titles like Casablanca, Batman Begins, etc. this early on is pretty amazing.

Look at the release schedule, it's absolutely awfull!

BD currently has more titles announced for 2007, but most of them are crap. There aren't many "heavy hitters" announced for either format in 2007 yet.

Aside from a few obvious good ones (Casino Royale, for example) the BD announcements are "absolutely awful" as well.

It took me all of 5 minutes to update my firmware. It wasn't difficult in the least.

Great! I don't have USB or broadband in my home, how do I update in 5 minutes?

I don't know of anyone who claims the "most tested BD player" thing. But even if it were a widespread claim, how many players are there? It's more tested than five other players? That means a 6 month old technology should work everytime out of the box? It's not mature technology. There is no way to anticipate every possible issue. It's not realistic. 1st generation technology rarely works without hiccups.

Again, no company will spend the time or money to cover every single possibility. Do you think that Sony will hold out a year or two to make it absolutely reliable before releasing it?

"On an interesting related note, a number of our industry sources are telling us to expect the PS3 to one of the best - if not THE best - Blu-ray Disc players on the market initially, because the unit has apparently been put through very rigorous QC to test format spec and disc compatibility."
http://www.thedigitalbits.com/mytwocentsa127.html"

Do you have first generation Mac? Did they make improvements over the very first one? Of course they did. Technology changes. Bugs are discovered. Improvements are made.

There was never anything "wrong" with Mac. They made it do new things with each generation, things that were never promised.

Great! I don't have USB or broadband in my home, how do I update in 5 minutes?
Okay, we're going in circles here. Sony has two options in this case.

1. Spend an extra year or so testing and fixing bugs, then release it.
2. Release it now and fix the bugs as they surface. Then, when it is mature and reliable, ship the units with that firmware.

Either way it would be a while before anyone who didn't want to fiddle with firmware updates got their hands on one. If you don't mind updates, but still don't have the ability, then I agree there should be a CD in the mail option. However, why go through all that trouble when there'll be more updates coming. Just hold off a few months.

We are not alone in our teething problems with our BD players.
How long and how many firmware updates did it take Toshiba to fix all of the bugs and finish up features in their 1st gen HD DVD player? Months and a dozen updates? I seem to remember reading thread after thread about hiccups, freezes and many other problems for months after it was released. I've read numerous threads in which owners have had problems acquiring and applying firwmare updates via downloads and CDs.
Is the 2nd gen Toshiba HD DVD player totally bug free? Apparently not!
On a different but related note, how many of us are using Windows XP which, after 5 years, still has several bug fixes released every month? If M$ had waited until Windows XP was 100% bug free we would still be waiting for it. Anyone care to speculate if Vista is 100% bug free at its release or can we expect numerous bug fixes on a monthly basis for the next several years?

thats the trogan horse theory.

Players are in housholds, they MAY not be interested in BR at this precise time, but when the marketing kicks in and BR begins to replace DVD these housholds which gradually switch over from DVD to BR.

Yes, absolutely, this is perfect. If the PS3 attach rate is a bust, then WAIT until it catches on down the road. You know what, the WHOLE Blu-ray strategy is a big Trojan Horse. Put as many PS3's out there as you can, get as many studios exclusive as you can, get the CE's to be exclusive, get those BD50's out, advertise like lunatics EVERYWHERE, etc. etc. Why, it's a Blu-ray MADHOUSE. Put it in your cereal and milk. Put it on your soap. Put it in your shampoo. If you overwhelm the population with enough Blu-ray, then they will eventually buy in. You know what, THAT's true. They will, and if you could see past all this, you'd know that this is NOT how you want your HighDef to be imparted to the public, through a maze of Trojan Horse strategies. The simple formula of great PQ, great AQ, and great customer service - i.e. HD DVD - ought to be enough. But the reality is, it isn't.

Okay, we're going in circles here. Sony has two options in this case.

1. Spend an extra year or so testing and fixing bugs, then release it.

2. Release it now and fix the bugs as they surface. Then, when it is mature and reliable, ship the units with that firmware.

OPTION 1! OPTION 1!

........Where do I vote anyway?

Either way it would be a while before anyone who didn't want to fiddle with firmware updates got their hands on one. If you don't mind updates, but still don't have the ability, then I agree there should be a CD in the mail option. However, why go through all that trouble when there'll be more updates coming. Just hold off a few months.

I'll be waiting....roughly......give or take........carry the two........forever. :cool:

We are not alone in our teething problems with our BD players.
How long and how many firmware updates did it take Toshiba to fix all of the bugs and finish up features in their 1st gen HD DVD player? Months and a dozen updates? I seem to remember reading thread after thread about hiccups, freezes and many other problems for months after it was released. I've read numerous threads in which owners have had problems acquiring and applying firwmare updates via downloads and CDs.

Is the 2nd gen Toshiba HD DVD player totally bug free? Apparently not!
On a different but related note, how many of us are using Windows XP which, after 5 years, still has several bug fixes released every month? If M$ had waited until Windows XP was 100% bug free we would still be waiting for it. Anyone care to speculate if Vista is 100% bug free at its release or can we expect numerous bug fixes on a monthly basis for the next several years?

Bill Gates should have built his own kernel from the get-go. The reason, AFAIK, why there are continuing problems with Windows is because it's built off DOS. Again, Macs don't have those problems and never did.

But I'm getting out of my depth here because I'm not that computer savvy. Bottom line: When you buy something, it should work as advertised, including,as I said before, the HD-A1.

Yes, absolutely, this is perfect. If the PS3 attach rate is a bust, then WAIT until it catches on down the road. You know what, the WHOLE Blu-ray strategy is a big Trojan Horse. Put as many PS3's out there as you can, get as many studios exclusive as you can, get the CE's to be exclusive, get those BD50's out, advertise like lunatics EVERYWHERE, etc. etc. Why, it's a Blu-ray MADHOUSE. Put it in your cereal and milk. Put it on your soap. Put it in your shampoo. If you overwhelm the population with enough Blu-ray, then they will eventually buy in. You know what, THAT's true. They will, and if you could see past all this, you'd know that this is NOT how you want your HighDef to be imparted to the public, through a maze of Trojan Horse strategies. The simple formula of great PQ, great AQ, and great customer service - i.e. HD DVD - ought to be enough. But the reality is, it isn't.

It isn't a trojan horse, it is a (repeat after me) FEATURE

I didn't buy this game system so I could play Resistance for 3 months, did you? Oh wait, you didn't buy one at all right? You are just trolling, sorry, didn't mean to interrupt, please continue sharing your insight with us.

Look at the release schedule, it's absolutely awfull!

Sure CES may give a little hope, but BR will also preview big hitters at the show.


What are you talking about?

Warner Brothers has already committed to day and date releases on HD-DVD for new releases in 2007. So I guess a new release schedule with every new WB release is "absolutely awful".

Further, Toshiba has asked HD-DVD studios to withhold their 2007 release schedule until CES. They want to roll out their entire release schedule for Q1 2007 over the course of the weekend so it creates more buzz than Bluray. The logic being that since BD has been making a few announcements here and there, they won't be able to produce a list containing as many new announcements as HD-DVD. I guess we will see if that works out in a week or so.

And fewer people are buying BD than are buying HD DVD. HD DVD are getting heaped praise upon them while BD keeps a-stumblin'. Heck, just compare the number of people in this forum compared to those in the HD DVD forums! Keep in mind that propbably half hte people here are just HD DVD fans checkin' out the competition!

But I'm sure you're right, BD is steamrolling over HD DVD. :rolleyes:

Ah message board forums, the last hope of HD-DVD :D

So because I'm not the expert on all things PS3, that somehow completely invalidates the well-known problems with the system? :confused:

Or are you saying that yes, Sony DOES send out CDs with firmware updates on them? Because if not, what is your point?

Please, in the name of all things holy Mr. "I've got 19 posts and ready to flame", SCHOOL ME! :cool:

For not being an expert on the PS3 you sure are eager to bash it in anyway you can on this forum. You seem to know all about these well-known problems without having experienced any of them yourself. You even admit to not being an expert yet still feel qualified to come here and answer people's questions based on what you think or what you have heard.

My point is that there are alternatives to updating your system other than a broadband connection... that is all. Stop spreading misinformation... if you don't know then don't post. I thought it was clear.

You have somewhere near 19 posts in this thread alone which has done exactly nothing for your credibility.

What are you talking about?

Warner Brothers has already committed to day and date releases on HD-DVD for new releases in 2007. So I guess a new release schedule with every new WB release is "absolutely awful".

Further, Toshiba has asked HD-DVD studios to withhold their 2007 release schedule until CES. They want to roll out their entire release schedule for Q1 2007 over the course of the weekend so it creates more buzz than Bluray. The logic being that since BD has been making a few announcements here and there, they won't be able to produce a list containing as many new announcements as HD-DVD. I guess we will see if that works out in a week or so.

Were are the exclusives?

It's no use telling me how great Warners releases are, I'll buy them on Blu-Ray.

Uh, going back to the original topic of this thread: the BD sales upswing on amazon.com as measured by www.thedvdwars.com. As of right now (7:00PM ET on 12/27/06) every single title in the HD-DVD Top 10 ranks below amazon's 1,000 threshhold (and eight of them rank lower than #1 BD title X-Men 3 at 743). Guess the big mojo for BD sales will have to wait until... until... until... whenever! :rolleyes:

It isn't a trojan horse, it is a (repeat after me) FEATURE

I didn't buy this game system so I could play Resistance for 3 months, did you? Oh wait, you didn't buy one at all right? You are just trolling, sorry, didn't mean to interrupt, please continue sharing your insight with us.

I couldn't disagree more.

Sony put the BD into the PS3 in an attempt to cram it down everyone's throat and then used it to sell their format to the public/movie studios... As a result, the PS3 is in short supply, is more expensive, and was a full year later to the market than originally planned.

Imagine the difference it was the same price as the 360 and had been on the market for a year already.....

John

Just so you know seven of the top ten Blu-ray disc are out of stock at Amazon. One other in the top ten is a pre-order.

hmmm, check again they all appear to be in stock when I try to check out.

Uh, going back to the original topic of this thread: the BD sales upswing on amazon.com as measured by www.thedvdwars.com. As of right now (7:00PM ET on 12/27/06) every single title in the HD-DVD Top 10 ranks below amazon's 1,000 threshhold (and eight of them rank lower than #1 BD title X-Men 3 at 743). Guess the big mojo for BD sales will have to wait until... until... until... whenever! :rolleyes:

Yup HD DVD really seems to be outselling BD right now on amazon stronger then ever. No more PS3s "under the tree" and apparently "1 million" have been sold and sony i on track to "sell a million more" before next tuesday. Now lets see if PS3 owners are gamers or movie buyers.

Yes, absolutely, this is perfect. If the PS3 attach rate is a bust, then WAIT until it catches on down the road. You know what, the WHOLE Blu-ray strategy is a big Trojan Horse. Put as many PS3's out there as you can, get as many studios exclusive as you can, get the CE's to be exclusive, get those BD50's out, advertise like lunatics EVERYWHERE, etc. etc. Why, it's a Blu-ray MADHOUSE. Put it in your cereal and milk. Put it on your soap. Put it in your shampoo. If you overwhelm the population with enough Blu-ray, then they will eventually buy in. You know what, THAT's true. They will, and if you could see past all this, you'd know that this is NOT how you want your HighDef to be imparted to the public, through a maze of Trojan Horse strategies. The simple formula of great PQ, great AQ, and great customer service - i.e. HD DVD - ought to be enough. But the reality is, it isn't.

Wow...You are damn right!!!

Yup HD DVD really seems to be outselling BD right now on amazon stronger then ever.

HD-DVD outselling BD on Amazon "stronger than ever?" What graph are you looking at? The sales gap has never been closer.

http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/graphs/salesrank-1-1-All.jpg

Uh, going back to the original topic of this thread: the BD sales upswing on amazon.com as measured by www.thedvdwars.com. As of right now (7:00PM ET on 12/27/06) every single title in the HD-DVD Top 10 ranks below amazon's 1,000 threshhold (and eight of them rank lower than #1 BD title X-Men 3 at 743). Guess the big mojo for BD sales will have to wait until... until... until... whenever! :rolleyes:

Tell us something new! No one said BD is outselling HD-DVD on Amazon, but the fact is the gap has NEVER BEEN CLOSER at such a consistent level and BD keeps closing the gap every week, and you just can't spin it any other way. BD sales are improving very consistently lately and this is great news for Blu-ray. Everyone can agree on that last sentence.

Looks like that Blu-ray ranking surge has held and is in fact higher ranked than at the peak of that surge. The average BD rank is now 1425 which I believe is the highest it has ever been. How can anyone possibly spin this as bad?

HD-DVD outselling BD on Amazon "stronger than ever?" What graph are you looking at? The sales gap has never been closer.

http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/graphs/salesrank-1-1-All.jpg

your right im wrong. I was looking at the sales rankings of the top ten and made my comments off of that. My mistake.

your right im wrong. I was looking at the sales rankings of the top ten and made my comments off of that. My mistake.

Wow you are seriosuly the first person on this forum I have seen actually admit they were wrong. Usually people argue or just disappear. Major respect.

Unless you have a nubus based mac... wow no USB!?! Most PCI Mac owner I know have added at least a USB PCI card. Heck a lot of them bought a PCI card designed for Windows with no Mac drivers and installed them in their Mac and was surprised that it worked.

your right im wrong. I was looking at the sales rankings of the top ten and made my comments off of that. My mistake.

those are sales rank...but does any1 know the actual number of blu-ray movies being sold vs hd-dvd in the month of december? the entire year of 2006?

Tell us something new! No one said BD is outselling HD-DVD on Amazon, but the fact is the gap has NEVER BEEN CLOSER at such a consistent level and BD keeps closing the gap every week, and you just can't spin it any other way. BD sales are improving very consistently lately and this is great news for Blu-ray. Everyone can agree on that last sentence.

Looks like that Blu-ray ranking surge has held and is in fact higher ranked than at the peak of that surge. The average BD rank is now 1425 which I believe is the highest it has ever been. How can anyone possibly spin this as bad?


Can you please point out some evidence that Bluray is closing the gap? There certainly isn't any proof of this that I can find. I think DVDwars is doing more of a disservice than service. No one seems to understand what is being presented there.

those are sales rank...but does any1 know the actual number of blu-ray movies being sold vs hd-dvd in the month of december? the entire year of 2006?

No, and I wish we wouldn't lend credibility to a site as flawed as this one. Yet people persist as if they were posting actual facts rather than made up ones

the point is that Sony certainly isn't making upgrades easy to acces for j6p.Wow. If you think you are representative of J6P for high-def DVD adopters, you couldn't be more wrong. How many PS3 or HD-A1 owners do you think have neither broadband, a computer with USB, or even a digital camera? I'm guessing you are one of very, very few. Sony could have done very little to make it easier to upgrade short of sending out a serviceperson to update it for you. If you have broadband it walks you through the process. If you don't you can use virtually any format of flash memory to update it, including downloading the update to your digital camera and plugging that in. Don't have broadband at home? Fine, download it at work. Or at the library. Or let your modem plug away, you'll have the update in a few hours (certainly overnight). And, if none of these options are convenient enough for you, I imagine you could get it from a SonyStyle store, or, if you ask nicely, from a Sony customer service rep via the mail.

I know nothing about you, but you come off like a cranky old geezer who has no business owning any product less than five years old.

hmmm, check again they all appear to be in stock when I try to check out.
Yeah, that is until you actually do order them. I've got 3 Blu-rays ordered that I thought were in stock, which won't be shipped until Jan. 11 - Jan. 17. X-men III, The Transporter 2, and Fantastic 4. Its Fantastic 4 thats holding up my order due to the fact that I requested the items be shipped together. Doh!

Yeah, that is until you actually do order them. I've got 3 Blu-rays ordered that I thought were in stock, which won't be shipped until Jan. 11 - Jan. 17. X-men III, The Transporter 2, and Fantastic 4. Its Fantastic 4 thats holding up my order due to the fact that I requested the items be shipped together. Doh!

This is the problem. No one buys 1 movie. They buy in bunches, if there's 1 movie that's out of stock, that may persuade someone to hold the order until they can get them all at the same time.

Bill Gates should have built his own kernel from the get-go. The reason, AFAIK, why there are continuing problems with Windows is because it's built off DOS. Again, Macs don't have those problems and never did.

But I'm getting out of my depth here because I'm not that computer savvy. Bottom line: When you buy something, it should work as advertised, including,as I said before, the HD-A1.Your lack of computer savvy shows. As someone who was responsible for a network of 50+ Macs and more than 400 windows based PCs for 5 years I'm well aware of the pros and cons of both, and let me tell you that the mac being more stable than a PC is little more than a myth. Sure it was true once upon a time, but that was a long, long time ago.

As for a way to update the PS3 in 5 minutes, buy a game. The firmware updates will be released on games the same way they are with the PSP. Don't want to buy a game? Either rent or borrow one. There are also plans for downloadable stations in stores where you can download demos and firmware updates, then take them home. Of course until then you could always get someone else with broadband to burn a copy of the update to disc for you, or in a pinch try your local game store. That's if you truly don't have your own access to broadband, a CD burner, memory stick, USB flash drive, USB hard drive, or ipod.

Tell us something new! No one said BD is outselling HD-DVD on Amazon, but the fact is the gap has NEVER BEEN CLOSER at such a consistent level and BD keeps closing the gap every week, and you just can't spin it any other way. BD sales are improving very consistently lately and this is great news for Blu-ray. Everyone can agree on that last sentence.

Looks like that Blu-ray ranking surge has held and is in fact higher ranked than at the peak of that surge. The average BD rank is now 1425 which I believe is the highest it has ever been. How can anyone possibly spin this as bad?

OK, I'll grant you that (using www.thedvdwars.com's methodology, which might or might not be flawed) BD is showing an upswing toward achieving PARITY with HD-DVD sales/rankings within the amazon.com universe. Happy now? ;)

As for a way to update the PS3 in 5 minutes, buy a game. The firmware updates will be released on games the same way they are with the PSP. Don't want to buy a game? Either rent or borrow one. There are also plans for downloadable stations in stores where you can download demos and firmware updates, then take them home. Of course until then you could always get someone else with broadband to burn a copy of the update to disc for you, or in a pinch try your local game store. That's if you truly don't have your own access to broadband, a CD burner, memory stick, USB flash drive, USB hard drive, or ipod.

Is it just me, or is there a somewhat defensive tone here?

Tell us something new! No one said BD is outselling HD-DVD on Amazon, but the fact is the gap has NEVER BEEN CLOSER at such a consistent level and BD keeps closing the gap every week, and you just can't spin it any other way. BD sales are improving very consistently lately and this is great news for Blu-ray. Everyone can agree on that last sentence.

Looks like that Blu-ray ranking surge has held and is in fact higher ranked than at the peak of that surge. The average BD rank is now 1425 which I believe is the highest it has ever been. How can anyone possibly spin this as bad?


You don't know that the gap has never been closer. Please provide some evidence if you want to make these kinds of statements. And no, DVDwars and Amazon.com sales ranks do not count as evidence. Can you tell me the difference in units sold between a rank of 800, 1500, and 3,000? Is it a difference of 5 units, 500 units, 5000 units?

You don't know, so you can't say the gap has never been closer. And this can change on a dailey basis. One day selling 5,000 units might make you #500 and the next day the same 5,000 units might make you #1,000. Sales rank is a totally floating number that floats in multiple domains. Without additional information that we don't have access to, it is totally meaningless.

The only accurate, meaningful observation that you can make from Amazon sales rank (or Buy.com sales rank for that matter) is that HD-DVD consistently outsells BD. It is impossible to tell if it is doing that by 1 unit, 100 units, or 1,000 units.

When the "gap" appears to "narrow", you don't know if it is because other items on the list changed positions, Bluray sales increased, HD-DVD sales decreased, etc. I also know from experience that whenever I've seen a ranked sales list that has 1,000's of items on it, there are usually HUGE chunks that all have sold the same amount, so they are essentially tied. In this case, what if the difference in rank between rank 3,000 and rank 1,500 was only 5 units, essentially making that an area where products are tied. This would mean for BD disc to go from the #3,000 spot to the #1,500 spot, they may only need to sell 5 more units. However, the gap between #1,500 and #800 may be 300 units. We don't know.

You just don't know what it means on a detailed level. Gainging .5% on HD-DVD doesn't necessarily constitute "closing the gap". Since you don't know units solds, you don't know if it was a gain of 50% or .5%. The DVDwars is a true/false, pass/fail type of comparison. Either HD-DVD or Bluray is ahead. You can't infer anything else from the limited amount of data.

The only accurate, meaningful observation that you can make from Amazon sales rank (or Buy.com sales rank for that matter) is that HD-DVD consistently outsells BD. It is impossible to tell if it is doing that by 1 unit, 100 units, or 1,000 units.

Quoted for agreement. I've tried to explain this to yoyoniner a few weeks back, but he refuses to understand.

The ONLY THING these ranks tell us is: the relative performance between Blu-ray and HD DVD.
When a graph goes up, it could mean either:
a) sales have increased
b) sales have decreased (!!)
c) sales practically haven't changed

That's because sales ranks also depend on how well other titles and formats (read: DVD) sell.

The ONLY THING these ranks tell us is: which system sells more.
Maybe the average difference in sales is only a single unit right now, we cannot know.
Maybe the sales gap as opposed to the sales rank gap is bigger than ever. We don't know.

Is it just me, or is there a somewhat defensive tone here?Just you. I have nothing to be defensive about when it comes to consoles and their manufacturers, I choose games over corporations.

However I find it silly when someone has to stop just short of "oh, well I live in a cave and have no contact with the outside world" in his effort to try and make a mountain out of a molehill.

The point is that the thing is designed to interact with other technologies. You don't need an HDTV for it to work, but you do need one for it to work at its full potential. Updates to the firmware are expected to optimize potential.
You can use:
1. Broadband connection.
2. CD-R
3. USB flash
If you don't even have those available, why are you so concerned with optimizing a next-gen electronics device?


Are you saying that no consumer electronics equipment should ever have to be updated or modified? That it should do everything you want it to do out of the box? What about PCs? Should you never have to install any software on it?

This relates loosely to the "it's only a video game" argument. The PS3 is designed to be more than simply a video game console. If it were solely a console, then I agree that it should be static and limited. However, it's more than that and therefore the software that drives it should be dynamic, much like a PC.
nothing should be static... everything should be upgradable.
Fact that PS3 is upgradable, and that games are upgradable, is one of the reasons I was willing to pay money for PS3.

Reason electronics are usually not upgradable is that hardware makers are not making any extra money by doing extra work. That is pretty bad for us - customers, since at the end, they require us to pay for changes they make, by purchasing new product.

Reason PS3 doesnt work that way is that they are loosing money on hardware, and making it on movies and games, so it is in their interest for you to keep the hardware as long as you can, while getting more games and movies.

At the end it is customers that win.

I paid more money from my Pioneer HD/DVD recorder than for PS3, which proved to have really crappy software on it, and of course, Pioneer will never issue an update, they issued two new versions which you have to buy, in order to have these issues fixed.

Complaining about company continuing R&D to improve the product you have already purchased is simply ridicilous. Imagine people complaining about Microsoft issuing SP2, or Apple issuing new version of Itunes? :-).

Funny how these "amazon sales" rankings were invalid and unreliable when hd-dvd was winning by a large margin but now that it's closer, the stats are suddenly reliable and worth looking at.

Funny how these "amazon sales" rankings were invalid and unreliable when hd-dvd was winning by a large margin but now that it's closer, the stats are suddenly reliable and worth looking at.

Yes this is amusing but perhaps not for the reasons you think.

The operator of the site expressly stated that he had not been recording the sales correctly but has made repairs. Here is a quote from his post on his site:

________
Recent thoughts on December 4, 2006 - Show thread - By Tony on December 4, 2006 - 19 responses - Last response on December 12, 2006
Good news for the blu-ray fans - I realized, after looking/searching on Amazon, that my site was missing quite a few blu-ray titles. I made an update, and now the number of buyable blu-ray titles is ...
_________

Before his changes, it was very clear to many of us that his numbers were inaccurate.

Right now, the Blu-ray sales numbers on Amazon are depressed because a number of titles are out of stock. Still, the trend is upward for Blu-ray.

Hello everyone!

I am back from christmas vacation. Hope everyone got lots of blu-ray disc movies in their stockings.

Anyway the surge is just intensifying!!

http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/7552/top1000011recent30cf3.jpg (http://img178.imageshack.us/my.php?image=top1000011recent30cf3.jpg)

What happened to all the people who said PS3 was not helping blu-ray? Sure doesn't look that way to me! Very, very soon now blu-ray will surpass HD-DVD forever and never look back.

When I first started this thread so many fanboys said there was no surge, but the surge will just keep growing until HD-DVD will be washed away by the blu tide!!

cheers :)

^
Thanks Krinkle!

It is also noteworthy that some key titles (like Superman Returns) are out of stock in Blu-ray.

Does it take a hammer to pound it into everyone's head that the DVDwars numbers don't mean anything and that it provides no evidence of any gap being closed.

To make the top 10,000 list in the DVD category, a title needs to sell around 5 copies per week. So from the chart Krinkle posted, it tells us that HD-DVD had 95+ titles that sold at least 5 copies and BD had 85 titles that sold at least 5 copies in a week.

Wee! Sales are stellar! 5 copies a week! Oh wait, some one just sold 6 copies and blew the gap wide open!

I used to think common sense prevailed at AVS, but alas...

^ wnorris,

Actually, the Amazon numbers don't mean very much. But they are interesting until we get some better data.

Hello everyone!

I am back from christmas vacation. Hope everyone got lots of blu-ray disc movies in their stockings.

Anyway the surge is just intensifying!!

http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/7552/top1000011recent30cf3.jpg (http://img178.imageshack.us/my.php?image=top1000011recent30cf3.jpg)

What happened to all the people who said PS3 was not helping blu-ray? Sure doesn't look that way to me! Very, very soon now blu-ray will surpass HD-DVD forever and never look back.

When I first started this thread so many fanboys said there was no surge, but the surge will just keep growing until HD-DVD will be washed away by the blu tide!!

cheers :)

Either you are new here or you are just falsely reporting what people said in many threads here on AVS over the past year. For the record, most HD-DVD supporters predicted that BD sales would catch up and surpass HD-DVD sales soon after the PS3 was launched since most PS3 owners would want at least a few BD's. However, some time after that, they would go back down below HD-DVD sales since PS3 owners are not as likely to collect movies (i.e., have high attach rates) like owners of stand-alone players (which HD-DVD has more of). So nothing that has happened so far contradicts those predictions. We'll just have to see how the predictions of surpassing and eventually going back down pan out. It's going to be along format war. You might want to not get too excited or over confident from just a couple weeks of strong data.

It is also noteworthy that some key titles (like Superman Returns) are out of stock in Blu-ray.

I just checked and SR on BD is in stock at Amazon. As far as "out of stock" is concerned, there are titles on both sides that have a "usually ships in 6 - 12 days" availability status, like Serenity, COR, WTC, just to name a few on HD-DVD. Those titles can still be ordered and I doubt that a short wait will affect overall sales rankings much. If anything, I am surprised HD-DVD is holding up so well considering that there have hardly been any new releases in the past month.

I just checked and SR on BD is in stock at Amazon. As far as "out of stock" is concerned, there are titles on both sides that have a "usually ships in 6 - 12 days" availability status, like Serenity, COR, WTC, just to name a few on HD-DVD. Those titles can still be ordered and I doubt that a short wait will affect overall sales rankings much. If anything, I am surprised HD-DVD is holding up so well considering that there have hardly been any new releases in the past month.

Yes, SR in BD is in stock now. It was not when I wrote the message and hasn't been in several days.

You are right to note that there have been few HD DVD releases recently, a trend that will apparently continue. There are now 58 announced BD titles and only 15 HD DVD announced titles. By the end of January, BD will have more shippable titles.

Unless something happens to change the studio support equation, Blu-ray is go to be moving ahead and may well gain unstoppable momentum.

That is the point of this entire thread.

Funny how these "amazon sales" rankings were invalid and unreliable when hd-dvd was winning by a large margin but now that it's closer, the stats are suddenly reliable and worth looking at.

not funny...kinda pathetic actually. One fanboi - Beatlesxxx - actually went as far as to poll the HD-DVD thread in order to make the case that HD-DVD owners are more prone to shop at Amazon. Luckily he got schooled by a terse post citing fundamental factors of statistics: sample size ROFLMAO

When I first started this thread so many fanboys said there was no surge, but the surge will just keep growing until HD-DVD will be washed away by the blu tide!!

First of all, given the tone of your post, I find it a bit silly for you to be labeling anyone -- on either side -- a "fanboy".

Additionally, if you look back, people weren't saying there wasn't a surge. They were specifically saying that there wasn't a "sales surge". That's because -- as has been stated about 100 times at this point -- those charts DO NOT track sales.

You seem utterly unable to understand that these charts just show overall rankings (mixed in with thousands of standard DVDs). You've said you understand... yet you continue to make statements and predictions based on this limited chart that go so far beyond the scope of the data as to border on fiction.

All these charts show is that -- at a single e-tailer -- HD DVD is outselling BD. That's it. Yet, somehow, you've found this as a reason to celebrate.

HD DVD may be outselling BD right now by millions of units, or just a few. I don't know. You don't know. But I wouldn't break out the champagne just yet.

Very, very soon now blu-ray will surpass HD-DVD forever and never look back.

Great, you go ahead an let us know when that happens. Because, so far, all I see is you celebrating while HD DVD apparently continues to remain solidly in the lead. Even more than a month after the PS3 launch and days following the holiday unwrapping of all of those units "under the tree".

When is this mythical "very, very soon" I've been hearing about since June?

When is this mythical "very, very soon" I've been hearing about since June?

Well from the looks of that graph it appears BD could very well surpass HD-DVD sales on Amazon within the next few days. Is that soon enough for you? At the very least I would certainly not go as far to call HD-DVD's lead "solid" that's for sure. What graph are you looking at? With current ranking trends they could be in second place as soon as tomorrow.

Average Since Launch
http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/graphs/salesrank-1-1-All.jpg

Average Last 30 Days
http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/graphs/salesrank-1-1-recent30.jpg

Well from the looks of that graph it appears BD could very well surpass HD-DVD sales on Amazon within the next few days. Is that soon enough for you? At the very least I would certainly not go as far to call HD-DVD's lead "solid" that's for sure. What graph are you looking at? With current ranking trends they could be in second place as soon as tomorrow.

We have no way of telling how far ahead HD-DVD is right now relative to Blu-Ray -- at least not by simply using these simple graphs available. There are no sales unit comparisons as has already been expressed multiple times. All we know is that HD-DVD is still leading. This may be a substantial margin or it could be an extremely minute margin. Until we have actual sales data (i.e. # of units sold), all we know is that HD-DVD is ahead of Blu-Ray at least as far as Amazon is concerned.

Well from the looks of that graph it appears BD could very well surpass HD-DVD sales on Amazon within the next few days. Is that soon enough for you?

Hey, that would be great. However, since we have NO CLUE what the gap in unit sales is between the two formats, I'm not sure what you're basing your predictions on.

Again, I've been hearing that BD is going to be outselling HD for months. I'm still waiting.

At the very least I would certainly not go as far to call HD-DVD's lead "solid" that's for sure. What graph are you looking at?

I'm looking at all of them -- including the two you just posted -- which show that HD DVD has had pretty steady sales rankings since launch and has pretty much always had higher rankings than BD. I'd call higher rankings since debut "solidly in the lead", but I admit that we may have different criteria.

We have no way of telling how far ahead HD-DVD is right now relative to Blu-Ray -- at least not by simply using these simple graphs available. There are no sales unit comparisons as has already been expressed multiple times. All we know is that HD-DVD is still leading. This may be a substantial margin or it could be an extremely minute margin. Until we have actual sales data (i.e. # of units sold), all we know is that HD-DVD is ahead of Blu-Ray at least as far as Amazon is concerned.

You won't find anyone in here that would disagree with that. But I don't think anyone in here would say that if one title is ranked higher than another that that title would actually be selling less though. The point is you can see from that graph that they could be in second place very soon if current trends continue or intensify, so calling HD-DVD's lead "solid" given what the trend of that graph looks like is totally ludicrous.

so calling HD-DVD's lead "solid" given what the trend of that graph looks like is totally ludicrous.

Yes, that's what's ludicrous about this thread. :rolleyes:

Again, I was using the term "solid" to indicate that HD DVD has consistently had the lead across 6 months of data. Not to indicate that it couldn't be overtaken at some point. I formally apologize if that was confusing or misleading.

You won't find anyone in here that would disagree with that. But I don't think anyone in here would say that if one title is ranked higher than another that that title would actually be selling less though. The point is you can see from that graph that they could be in second place very soon if current trends continue or intensify, so calling HD-DVD's lead "solid" given what the trend of that graph looks like is totally ludicrous.


Yeah, well until the fat lady sings, guess what? -- HD-DVD is still in the lead :). I've been hearing empty promises that Blu-Ray would be kicking its a## for months and months. Still hasn't happened even with all of the "supposed" advantages that the Blu-Ray camp has. Maybe if we just force Blu-Ray down consumers throats then it will finally take the lead. Maybe.

Hey, that would be great. However, since we have NO CLUE what the gap in unit sales is between the two formats, I'm not sure what you're basing your predictions on.

I agree, but do you agree that with that current graph trend that HD-DVD could literally be in second place on Amazon just in the next couple days? The gap is extremely close and BD rankings have been consistently improving the past couple months.


Again, I've been hearing that BD is going to be outselling HD for months. I'm still waiting.


Well wait longer. It's very simple. Seriously why are you posting in here? When BD outsells HD-DVD are you going to come back in here and congratulate these same people you have been arguing with all these months? I mean all these people are doing is looking at that graph line and seeing a trend, and then taking into account the incredible discrepancy of announced titles the next couple months in addition to increased PS3 production, not to mention a severe studio support discrepancy that still exists, and believing that one day this will combine to result in a sales lead. It's definetly a sane and logical prediction.


I'm looking at all of them -- including the two you just posted -- which show that HD DVD has had pretty steady sales rankings since launch and has pretty much always had higher rankings than BD. I'd call higher rankings since debut "solidly in the lead", but I admit that we may have different criteria.

To me it doesn't matter what sales were like in September nor should it matter to the studios. We need to see if the PS3 will be having an effect and you couldn't do that back then and that is part and parcel with the Blu-ray format. Right now Blu-ray has the highest sales ranking in its history on Amazon.com, and just forgetting HD-DVD for a moment, this is excellent news for the format and it clearly has sales momentum.

Seeing as how there are about 1 million more Blu-Ray players out there than HD DVD players, I should hope that BD sales would take the lead.

Yeah, well until the fat lady sings, guess what? -- HD-DVD is still in the lead :). I've been hearing empty promises that Blu-Ray would be kicking its a## for months and months. Still hasn't happened even with all of the "supposed" advantages that the Blu-Ray camp has. Maybe if we just force Blu-Ray down consumers throats then it will finally take the lead. Maybe.

Well those people making those promises were idiots and no offense but you shouldn't have listened to them. Anyone with half a brain would see how many cards Blu-ray had yet to put on the table. BD-50's. PS3. Players from Sony, Pioneer, Panasonic, Philips. Movies from Fox. Movies from Disney. I mean all these things didn't happen overnight but the point is they DID happen you just had to, like MOST things in life, wait for them. What I don't understand is the type of person who comes in the Blu-ray forum all the time and saying all we do is say "wait" when all they do is move the goalposts! We've heard the same arguments with BD-50's, the Sony player, studio support, it just goes on and on and on. Every week it is something new to have to tell people to "wait for" because they keep coming up with NEW arguments when the old ones are obsolete. I predict the same thing will happen with sales arguments in just a couple weeks as all signs point to Blu-ray having a sales lead very soon. I have always predicted end of January, even Mark0 can attest to that. It looks like it may happen even sooner.

gap is extremely close and BD rankings have been consistently improving the past couple months.

Well, again you are misinterpreting the graphs. This is done frequently, so I can't blame you entirely.

The gap could be close but we have no idea how close that is. Remember, all the graph can show is that one camp is ahead of the other camp. We don't have any idea of the relativity between the two formats because there is no unit:unit comparison made. The gap could be enormous and it might be very small, but there is absolutely no way to tell. None at all. At least not by using the graphs available.

Blu-ray has the highest sales ranking in its history on Amazon.com, and just forgetting HD-DVD for a moment, this is excellent news for the format and it clearly has sales momentum.

Again, you're trying to interpret a graph that you cannot interpretate at this stage. Blu-Ray could actually be selling less than yesterday, last week, a month ago, an hour ago, the list goes on. In fact, both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD may be selling less right now than they were a week ago. Because of heavy sales fluctuations during the holidays, I woudn't be surprised at all if both formats are selling much worse than a week ago right now. There is no way of telling how Blu-Ray or HD-DVD is selling right now relative to any other time by using these graphs. None!

If DVD's are selling worse now than they were a week ago (which they likely are due to Christmas being over), then that affects all of the sales data for this genre. Blu-Ray may be selling far less than it was last week, but we have no way of telling.

This is the only fact that we know based on the graphs we have at hand: HD-DVD is currently ahead of Blu-Ray. That is it. Sorry.

You are right to note that there have been few HD DVD releases recently, a trend that will apparently continue

There are going to be plenty of HD DVD releases announced at CES next week.

not funny...kinda pathetic actually. One fanboi - Beatlesxxx - actually went as far as to poll the HD-DVD thread in order to make the case that HD-DVD owners are more prone to shop at Amazon. Luckily he got schooled by a terse post citing fundamental factors of statistics: sample size ROFLMAO

You might refer to my post where I pointed out that the operator of thedvdwars.com made significant changes to his site on 12/4, stating that he had failed to note a number of Blu-ray titles. So, yes, the site is perhaps more accurate than it was in terms of measuring Amazon sales.

There are going to be plenty of HD DVD releases announced at CES next week.

Of which, 2 of the 3 studios titles will also be out same day on the opposing format. So the only titles exclusive to hd-dvd is universal, all other announcements are for both formats.

How does the aacs developments fit into this? For example the news lately have reported that HD-DVD and their encrpytion has now allowed a user to rip the content of a HD-DVD to harddrive using the key found in memory during playback.

To me this might be a turning point in the format war, since the studios have hyped the security aspect. This could mean more support for Blu-Ray as it is percieved as more secure. This also might be the first time that key rejection is used on a player. That would spell bad news for all those A1/A2 owners, this would not be a good time to reject keys as the format has not really taken off.

This could also be used as a marketing point, as proof of concept that one format is more secure than another. Wouldn't that be funny if a Universial HD-DVD only title was ripped and then burned to blu-ray. If Usenet does get it hands on such a title it could force a company like Universial to rethink their strategy. After all if a person could get the content of their favorite movie in the format they want, we wouldn't need a one horse pony show.

All I can say is support fair use, and I want to watch my blu-ray on Gnu/Linux with an open player, even if the codecs are closed, I would be over the moon if all I had to do was install some codecs, and use mplayer to play it.

Hey Everyone, I just want to pipe in with my 2 cents.

I'm thankful to all of you who are buying either format.
It is your large quanties of purchases that are really helping to kickstart this,
and by this i don't mean HD-DVD or Blu-Ray - I mean Hi-Def content in general.

Each time any of us buys an HD-Title in either format, we're sending a message to the studios - 'there is demand for High Definition content'

Eventually this will lead to more and more content being available, and I for one am thankful for the opportunitiy to own this content.

Sure it would be nice to have had one format instead of 2, but Let me remind all of you - 2 formats is better than 0.

We should be thankful there is interest in both.
I won't regret my purchase if the other format wins - I'll regret my lack of purchasing if neither format wins...

Ok, I've said my piece.
Time to head to another thread to learn what movies to buy next...

Well said

Of which, 2 of the 3 studios titles will also be out same day on the opposing format. So the only titles exclusive to hd-dvd is universal, all other announcements are for both formats.


Yes, but the original point being made was that the trend will be few HD DVD's released. A lot of titles being released to both formats doesn't translate to "few" on HD DVD.

Hey Everyone, I just want to pipe in with my 2 cents.

I'm thankful to all of you who are buying either format.
It is your large quanties of purchases that are really helping to kickstart this,
and by this i don't mean HD-DVD or Blu-Ray - I mean Hi-Def content in general.

Each time any of us buys an HD-Title in either format, we're sending a message to the studios - 'there is demand for High Definition content'

Eventually this will lead to more and more content being available, and I for one am thankful for the opportunitiy to own this content.

Sure it would be nice to have had one format instead of 2, but Let me remind all of you - 2 formats is better than 0.

We should be thankful there is interest in both.
I won't regret my purchase if the other format wins - I'll regret my lack of purchasing if neither format wins...

Ok, I've said my piece.
Time to head to another thread to learn what movies to buy next...

Excellent point.

Hey Everyone, I just want to pipe in with my 2 cents.

I'm thankful to all of you who are buying either format.
It is your large quanties of purchases that are really helping to kickstart this,
and by this i don't mean HD-DVD or Blu-Ray - I mean Hi-Def content in general.

Each time any of us buys an HD-Title in either format, we're sending a message to the studios - 'there is demand for High Definition content'

Eventually this will lead to more and more content being available, and I for one am thankful for the opportunitiy to own this content.

Sure it would be nice to have had one format instead of 2, but Let me remind all of you - 2 formats is better than 0.

We should be thankful there is interest in both.
I won't regret my purchase if the other format wins - I'll regret my lack of purchasing if neither format wins...

Ok, I've said my piece.
Time to head to another thread to learn what movies to buy next...

great post.

Average Since Launch
http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/graphs/salesrank-1-1-All.jpg

Average Last 30 Days
http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/graphs/salesrank-1-1-recent30.jpg


Everyday that HD DVD holds its own v. BD is a victory for HD DVD. The overall economics are in favor of HD DVD and as the number of titles and buyers continue to increase we will see a gradual widening of sales ranking in favor of HD DVD....especially if we see dual format players later next year. This is now looking inevitable. JMHO.

The relative rankings of HD DVD continues to surpass BD, although technically there are far more BD players arounds (if PS3 numbers are to be believed).

I will bet that Sony and Fox will announce all their big gun releases on CES. No point holding back now.

...The overall economics are in favor of HD DVD and as the number of titles and buyers continue to increase we will see a gradual widening of sales ranking in favor of HD DVD

What kinda bull**** are you talking about?
1 Increasing titles????? the last time I checked BR already surpassed HD-DVD titles available to order

2. Widening sales rankings???????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????
did you see the image you quoted, where's the widening part???????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????

What happened with the average price? Now the average price of Blu-ray at Amazon went up $7 to $28.10 vs HD DVD's $21.20. They used to only be a couple dimes apart.

Everyday that HD DVD holds its own v. BD is a victory for HD DVD. The overall economics are in favor of HD DVD and as the number of titles and buyers continue to increase we will see a gradual widening of sales ranking in favor of HD DVD....especially if we see dual format players later next year. This is now looking inevitable. JMHO.

The relative rankings of HD DVD continues to surpass BD, although technically there are far more BD players arounds (if PS3 numbers are to be believed).

I will bet that Sony and Fox will announce all their big gun releases on CES. No point holding back now.

I don't understand this post at all.

You seem to say that the sales increase for BD is a victory for HD DVD. I am not seeing much of a victory here as it appears to be a diminishing difference between the two formats.

Further, you suggest that Sony and Fox will announce their big gun titles. I agree that this would seem to be a good strategy for Blu-ray (although I hesitate to predict that Sony Pictures Home Entertainment will do anything rational at all). But, assuming that this happens, wouldn't this very likely push the numbers for Blu-ray well over HD DVD?

What I am predicting is that Blu-ray will soon overtake HD DVD in sales unless something dramatic happens for HD DVD.

What are you seeing, and why?

Everyday that HD DVD holds its own v. BD is a victory for HD DVD. The overall economics are in favor of HD DVD and as the number of titles and buyers continue to increase we will see a gradual widening of sales ranking in favor of HD DVD....especially if we see dual format players later next year. This is now looking inevitable. JMHO.

The relative rankings of HD DVD continues to surpass BD, although technically there are far more BD players arounds (if PS3 numbers are to be believed).

I will bet that Sony and Fox will announce all their big gun releases on CES. No point holding back now.

To be honest with you, if you replace the text "BD" where you've put "HD-DVD" and vice versa, you'll have a post that makes much more sense! Especially as you are currently contradicting yourself in the post! On first reading, I genuinely thought you got mixed up on the format names!

Some people arent sure what they are arguing about or why they are arguing about it. They just feel the need to give their opinion wether it is factual or relevant or not.

How will HD-DVD stand up when the number one title on HD-DVD namely Batman Begins arrives on Blu-Ray? Surely Blu-Ray will continue to cut a larger chunk from the HD pie as Warner releases the same titles for both formats.

What HD-DVD will be left with is a top ten full of Universal only titles and the question will be will those titles be strong enough to combat those from the other Studios?

I'm sorry but it HD-DVD down hill all the way from here. He who laughs last, laughs loudest.

Well from the looks of that graph it appears BD could very well surpass HD-DVD sales on Amazon within the next few days. Is that soon enough for you? At the very least I would certainly not go as far to call HD-DVD's lead "solid" that's for sure. What graph are you looking at? With current ranking trends they could be in second place as soon as tomorrow.

Well tomorrow is here and the sales ranking of the Top Ten Titles are HD-570, and BD-1097. I guess we need to wait another day. Oh, I am sorry that is the BD battle cry, wait, wait, wait................... :p

How will HD-DVD stand up when the number one title on HD-DVD namely Batman Begins arrives on Blu-Ray? Surely Blu-Ray will continue to cut a larger chunk from the HD pie as Warner releases the same titles for both formats.



I don't think that necessarily means it's bad for HD DVD. If dual format titles are selling well on both formats, that is neither hurting or helping either format. It just makes things good for Warner.

By the same token, what does it mean when the #5 selling game for both the PS3 and the 360 is CoD3? Does this hurt or help the PS3 and 360? Does it hurt the PS3 when the #2 selling title, Madden, is available on both formats?

Everyday that HD DVD holds its own v. BD is a victory for HD DVD. The overall economics are in favor of HD DVD and as the number of titles and buyers continue to increase we will see a gradual widening of sales ranking in favor of HD DVD....especially if we see dual format players later next year. This is now looking inevitable. JMHO.

The relative rankings of HD DVD continues to surpass BD, although technically there are far more BD players arounds (if PS3 numbers are to be believed).


It ain't just a river in Egypt folks. I agree with others on here... what graph are you looking at?

How anyone can predict a widening of sales in favor of HD-DVD all of a sudden is beyond me especially considering in 2007 we have 58 Blu-ray titles announced thus far versus 15 for HD-DVD (that is a major discrepancy), not to mention PS3's now in large supply, more Blu-ray standalone players than ever in the market while it is still Toshiba essentially going it alone for the forseeable future, Blu-ray players coming more inline with HD-DVD player prices (brand new Samsungs are now $599), etc. And the incredible differential in CE and studio support between the two formats STILL exists.

I mean seriously what does HD-DVD have going for it the next couple months relative to BD in order for you to predict that HD-DVD will "widen" it's sales lead, especially when it couldn't even do that the past couple months when it had an even better price and movie library advantage then it does now?

Well tomorrow is here and the sales ranking of the Top Ten Titles are HD-570, and BD-1097. I guess we need to wait another day. Oh, I am sorry that is the BD battle cry, wait, wait, wait................... :p

Good point that the gap continues to close. That 1097 is the highest average ranking in the history of the Blu-ray format. At this rate BD should overtake HD-DVD very soon... as in "sometime in January" soon like many predicted here. I've always said "end of January" but I will revise that to "mid January" looking at that graph.

The question to ask though is if Blu-ray overtakes HD-DVD in sales, seriously what are HD-DVD fanboys going to be left with with their new talking point? There is a reason Blu-ray fans are so used to saying "wait." It's because HD-DVD fanboys constantly move the goalposts and change their arguments. First it was more players available. Then it was MPEG-2=horrible PQ. Then it was BD-50's will never come out. Then it was the PS3 would have no effect on BD sales. Then it was Blu-ray players are all still $1000. Now it is "we are still waiting for BD to overtake HD-DVD in sales." When this happens seriously what is left to use as a talking point? Universal?

Good point that the gap continues to close. That 1097 is the highest average ranking in the history of the Blu-ray format. At this rate BD should overtake HD-DVD very soon... as in "sometime in January" soon like many predicted here. I've always said "end of January" but I will revise that to "mid January" looking at that graph.

The question to ask though is if Blu-ray overtakes HD-DVD in sales, seriously what are HD-DVD fanboys going to be left with with their new talking point? There is a reason Blu-ray fans are so used to saying "wait." It's because HD-DVD fanboys constantly move the goalposts and change their arguments. First it was more players available. Then it was MPEG-2=horrible PQ. Then it was BD-50's will never come out. Then it was the PS3 would have no effect on BD sales. Then it was Blu-ray players are all still $1000. Now it is "we are still waiting for BD to overtake HD-DVD in sales." When this happens seriously what is left to use as a talking point? Universal?
Everything you listed above are still true.

Everything you listed above are still true.

No.

1. Earth to Canuck, more players are available on Blu-ray now than HD-DVD.

2. Earth to Canuck, the best looking titles lately on Blu-ray are MPEG-2. MPEG-2 does not equal horrible PQ.

3. Earth to Canuck, BD-50's ARE out.

4. Earth to Canuck, BD sales are significantly up since the PS3 has been released.

5. Earth to Canuck, all Blu-ray players are not still $1000.

I guess you answered my question though... when the HD-DVD fanboys lose talking points and keep moving the goalposts but run out of new positions to take, they'll just go into denial. So I hope this forum braces for it the next couple months.