I was onthe Radiance thread and asked this question to Jim From Lumagen:

Quote:
Originally Posted by nashou66
What would really be cool if the added blending functions to one of there products some day! With all this blendzilla stuff i see on here i'm getting an itch for it and I love Lumagen scalers so it seams like the next big upgrade for them !

How about it JP !



He responded with this !

It is a possibility. Please email us at support @ lumagen.com with how you would want this to work and be set up.

No promises though.

__________________
Jim Peterson
Lumagen

Now i have never done blending so i was hoping you Blenders out there could send them some sugestions for this feature.

Would there need to be two outputs? each with there own procesors behind them? I am new to this Blending but it wouyld be cool if the Lumagens had this feature.

Athanasios

I have had a number of discussions with Tim Martin from E-Tech Systems about edge blending. He asked that we consider this several years ago

The Radiance XD has two HDMI output ports. These are fed from two independent output data buses. This was done, at least in part, to make this feature possible.

So, it is technically possible for the RadianceXD to drive two displays with different images - say a 2.35 image split into two 16:9 overlapped 1920x1080p sections to build a 2.35 image on a 2.35 screen.

This is not a planned feature, only one under consideration. It would need to sell a number of units for us to consider putting it on the to-do list. Also, even if we did put it on the to-do list, it would not get done until well after production release.

So the answer is no at this point, but it could change later.

I think two output zones is a much more useful feature...

Many people with projectors have a second flat TV. Life would be easier if the same unit could drive both.

I think two output zones is a much more useful feature...

Many people with projectors have a second flat TV. Life would be easier if the same unit could drive both.

I fully agree with you as I, and many of my friends, are in this exact situation..

I would assume that a standard dual output capability would be an inherent capability of any blender. Tim can correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that his BlendZilla can act as two separate scalers, just sharing the same input.
If Lumagen built it - I would buy it!

Boilermaker i agree! Lets get some interest for it and hopfully it will get done with in a year ! Key word Hopefully ! :D

I would assume that a standard dual output capability would be an inherent capability of any blender. Tim can correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that his BlendZilla can act as two separate scalers, just sharing the same input.
If Lumagen built it - I would buy it!

Our DVX BlendZilla solution, from Analog France, is a broadcast switcher on steroids and to meet the switcher hardware requirements, has two switch banks, two transcoders and two scalers within, as well as RGB, DVI and HDSDI outputs in pairs. Pretty much the box Folsom intended, but never produced. I believe the results were worth it.

Those interested may want to visit the Midwest thread from three weeks ago, start at the middle of this page: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=729705&page=11&pp=30

and further along, some screen shots:


http://crtforum.com/img/cliff09.jpg

http://crtforum.com/img/cliff10.jpg

http://crtforum.com/img/cliff11.jpg

http://crtforum.com/img/cliff12.jpg

The Question is....how much is this switcher?

what is blending and what is the benefit from it.
Tim, are those screenshots blends? and if so what am I seeing that is different

Thanks

Guys!


Those tuning in late may not be familiar with blending; our DVX processor permits us to switch, transcode, scale, and deinterlace up to eight signal sources, then render two "halves" of these images with soft edge overlap for one huge seamless image that uses the most possible phosphor of the tubes of two CRT projectors; resulting in big crisp display of 1.78 and 2.35 sources; screens to twelve feet wide or more are now doable with the punch of a seven foot screen:


left sixty percent

http://i12.tinypic.com/48pwjt3.jpg


right sixty percent

http://i12.tinypic.com/2dka5gh.jpg


and if it is aligned well we get this

http://i12.tinypic.com/29w3988.jpg

The DVX lists for $17,000, but figure $15,900 for our AVS friends.

Thats alot of $$$$$, i hope lumagen can do it for alot less!

thanks

silly question, why use this technique instead of stacking the two CRTs and using a simple 1x2 distributor ?

I've wondered this but I think there are 2 reasons. You get a better use of phosphor for widescreen images and there are less issues with convergence.

Martin

The goal of blending is to acheive full phosphor usage from the tubes.

There are many informative post on the CRT forum, where the possibilitys of blending are most meaningful due to the lumen restrictions of the CRT format.

I think there are 2 reasons. You get a better use of phosphor for widescreen images and there are less issues with convergence.Yep... especially with 2.35 AR... a widescreen image leaves a lot of unused phosphor on a CRT tube, but when blended across 2 CRTs, it really maximizes the full tube face. So instead of just getting 2x the projected image, you effectively get 3x or 4x more from a blended setup.

Plus, each projector only has to handle 60% of the image, so instead of running the bandwidth hard at 1080p60, a pair can run easily at 1080p72 or higher. Even <$1000 8" CRT can handle 60% of 1080p@72.

I enjoyed playing with Tim's blendzilla (see my 12-foot-wide screenshots above). I think the potential market for blending will grow by 100x if the price falls by an order of magnitude.

I'd love to see Lumagen give this a shot!

Clarence,

not if you get two paramorph lens and put on both projectors... I think it would still be cheaper than buying a blending processor.

About convergence, I would think it would be much easier to actually do it with stacking - that way you have physically 4 corner points to converge, instead of two unclear areas.

Plus, stacking is applicable today, whereas you need a special processor to apply blending.

Clarence,

not if you get two paramorph lens and put on both projectors... I think it would still be cheaper than buying a blending processor.I was unaware of any 9" paramorph (or panamorph?) lenses for CRTs.

Would it take 2 paramorphs (one for each projector) or 6 (one for each of the CRT's lenses)?

For HT usage blending has only been applied to CRT's so a Panamorph lens is not really much of an option.

Currently it is "State of the Art" & therefore prohibitively expensive. Controlling a blend zone so that it is not visible is not an easy task. Interestingly enough these blenders are most commonly used in the simulator market where CRT PJ's once ruled.

While I think this would be relatively easy work for the engineering guys at Lumagen to tackle, I can't imagine they are interested due to the potential market size for HT use.

The DVX-8022 was made for the Business/Conference & Church display market where it's price and performance is a revelation compared to what had previously been available. I get the impression from the 2 Analog Way Reps that I have talked to that they are somewhat surprised to see their product used in this fashion but pleased by its performance & praise.

So yes stacking is perfectly viable but it is neither the best performing or most elegant method. I am sure 100% of the readers here would be ecstatic with Art's stacked G-90's for their Theaters.

Clarence - I think you'd need 3 lenses per CRT projector. Pretty pricey with commercial products.

There are some people making DIY ones for about $100 - $150 per lens out of crystal trophies in this Thread (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4677&perpage=10&pagenumber=95) .

http://www.massillonplaque.com//uploads/image-193.bmp


The trophies come as big as 6" x 7.5", which might work for some crt projectors (e.g. it appears that the diameter on HD-145 lenses are around 5"). Would take a good bit of effort to work it out. I stopped following that thread after I bought a CRT.

While I think this would be relatively easy work for the engineering guys at Lumagen to tackle, I can't imagine they are interested due to the potential market size for HT use.

The DVX-8022 is about $15k. If lumagen did this on the Radience for $5k wouldn't it open a new market for them?

I might even consider getting another Barco 909 if they did this :D

Martin

Clarence - I think you'd need 3 lenses per CRT projector. Pretty pricey with commercial products.

...come as big as 6" x 7.5", which might work for some crt projectors (e.g. it appears that the diameter on HD-145 lenses are around 5"). Would take a good bit of effort to work it out. I stopped following that thread after I bought a CRT.I'm not sure I'd want 6 more pieces of glass or acrylic (with their additional optical abberations) to design, mount, adjust, and align.

While I think this would be relatively easy work for the engineering guys at Lumagen to tackle, I can't imagine they are interested due to the potential market size for HT use.A video processor company might be interested in providing a feature like this to separate their latest product from their competitors.

Most manufacturers have competing products with similar features and performance. If a consumer is comparing video processors, then one with the flexibility for blending, could easily be a key discriminator to set it above a competitor. Several of us have tried various blending approaches... nvidia's fx cards, VLC, blendzilla. The potential of blending would create quite a buzz... screenshots of the results always fuels a lot of interest.

If early enough in the design phase, a few extra connectors (a 2nd set of video outputs) might only cost a few dollars in production. Once the hardware is in place, then the rest is "only software". ;)

At it's simplest, the device could accept any 1080i input, deinterlace it, and divide it into 2 video outputs, even with a fixed blend zone and fixed output resolutions like 1080x1080.

I propose about a 20% blendzone (instead of each projector displaying 50% of the image, it should display 60%), so 60% of 1920x1080 at 72hz = 1152x1080@72 or 1200x1080@72, etc.

http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/4749/blendomaticcomponentinputbncou.gif (http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=13541#13541)

This is great guys! This is the kind of BUZZ i want to create to get the guys at Lumagen to make Blending alot more afordable than the Blenzzilla option. And trying to find a used Analog way unit is next to impossible. We should all send lumagen an email Showing our interest in there development of blending.

Good God, I do not have the technical know how to compete with Clarences nicely done show & tell above.

How large a market do you think exist for Lumagen if they do undertake this endeavor? My guess is that if you were able to have a processor/blender unit in the $6000.00 range you would move 30 units.

It is interesting how many CRT enthusiast have multiple PJ's. Yet a good % are hesitant to spend more money on their systems. I remember multiple arguments with well meaning folks claiming HD-DVD players were not going to be that big of a performance improvement, just to give an example. Lessening fears of content protection has somewhat alieved this.

How large a market do you think exist for Lumagen if they do undertake this endeavor? My guess is that if you were able to have a processor/blender unit in the $6000.00 range you would move 30 units.

It is interesting how many CRT enthusiast have multiple PJ's. Yet a good % are hesitant to spend more money on their systems.Providing blending for multiple CRTs is surely a niche market.

What's the typical production run on any Video Processor (like the HDP, HDQ, VP30, VP50)? 1000? 5000? 10000?

As a WAG, of the CRT owners that are considering buying a video processor, maybe that number would double if blending was an available feature.

Even if my fictional "Blend-O-Matic" black-box could be built for <$1000, I suspect there would only a market for 100-500 units.

I'd envisioned a fellow CRT enthusiast producing a blender as a labor of love... like beun (Kim at Crescendo sys) or Jean (johnHWman in France) or moome. Their transcoders and DVI converters are amazing designs, great quality at low quantity production (~1000 units), and remain very affordable ($150-$300).

Blending won't necessarily make business sense. This HT hobby/obsession rarely does. But blending has been a very persistent challenge for several years. Anyone that has seen Art's stacked G90's or Tim's/Cliff's blended CRTs (I saw both a few weeks ago) knows that the results are worth pursuing.

If blending could be provided simpler and more-affordable than a $1000-$2000 HTPC at the current market price levels of scalers ($1000-$2000), maybe it's not a viable standalone product, but it would be a viable feature. And the enthusiast buzz here could be arguably worth something even to a market leader like Lumagen.

If the right person at Lumagen saw Tim's blendzilla, it wouldn't take much to catch the obsession that it could easily be done as a feature, despite a limited consumer market. Maybe I should anonymously send a couple of 8" Marquees to Lumagen. ;)

I have had a number of discussions with Tim Martin from E-Tech Systems about edge blending. He asked that we consider this several years ago

The Radiance XD has two HDMI output ports. These are fed from two independent output data buses. This was done, at least in part, to make this feature possible.

So, it is technically possible for the RadianceXD to drive two displays with different images - say a 2.35 image split into two 16:9 overlapped 1920x1080p sections to build a 2.35 image on a 2.35 screen.

This is not a planned feature, only one under consideration. It would need to sell a number of units for us to consider putting it on the to-do list. Also, even if we did put it on the to-do list, it would not get done until well after production release.

So the answer is no at this point, but it could change later.



Clarence
Instead of sending him two projectors we should all pitch in and get him on a flight to see Blendzzilla in person!It might be alot cheaper! lol
Seriously, If we start sending inquiries to Lumagen about Blending they might take us more seriously as our numbers grow. Maybe you could E-mail Jim a copy of your drawing from the above post! with a more detailed explanation of what needs to be done. He said they already have two outputs that will send the same image, now we just need them to have each out put be also able to send out a left and right 60% image witht he edges fading for the blend zone.

What do you think?

Doesn't JRP already have a 9500LC??

If we start sending inquiries to Lumagen about Blending they might take us more seriously as our numbers grow. Maybe you could E-mail Jim a copy of your drawing from the above post! with a more detailed explanation of what needs to be done. He said they already have two outputs that will send the same image, now we just need them to have each out put be also able to send out a left and right 60% image witht he edges fading for the blend zone.

What do you think?Jim and Patrick and the rest of the Lumagen team do a great job of keeping tabs on the support questions and enhancement requests here.

But we should also consider submitting the enhancement request for blending at Gordon's Support forum:
http://www.convergent-av.co.uk/forum

Of course, if Kei or Josh or any of the other video processing gurus want to contact me for more specs on my blending wishlist, please feel free to PM me. I'm sure I could round up a couple of test CRTs to send to you and/or I'll beta test anything that you want me to try.

Just for reference, here are some other blending threads, so you can read up on the past attempts and see the number of people who are interested:

cocquebert's VLC Panoramix plugin for VLC (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7906418&&#post7906418)
Any late breaking news/updates on blended CRTs? (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7910460&&#post7910460)
Breaking Blender News!! (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=698102) (YONEXSP using cyviz)
Edge Blending: Cheaper by the dozen (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8217446#post8217446)
Options for Blending Two 9500LC Ultra's (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9325984&&#post9325984)
Clarence's POWERWALL: Blending 2 CRTs with Nvidia FX (http://archive.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=409466)
Control Panel for nvidia's powerwall (http://archive.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?s=&postid=3813819&fullpage=1)
Twin output edge blending PC Graphics card (http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5670726&&#post5670726)
CRT Blending With Dscaler (http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=3957453&&#post3957453)
My CRT Blending Attempt (http://archive.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=3774478#post3774478) (MC Maniac)
Clarence's blending attempts (http://archive.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=3824698#post3824698)
Edge Blending is HOT these days...I need help! (http://archive.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=3792109#post3792109) (Nich)
Tim Martin's Got a WINNER BLENDING TWO 9" CRTs Side-By-Side!!! (http://archive.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=3025468#post3025468)
MorpheusSzeto has an impressive blended screenshot (http://archive.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?s=&postid=3722864&fullpage=1) in this thread:
Poor Man's HD = Two 1024x768 DLPs = 1804x768 for 2.35:1? (http://archive.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=3722864#post3722864)
Blending 2 projectors using a PC. It works!! (http://archive.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=3025039#post3025039)
Blend-o-Matic design spec (http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=13541#13541)

Clarence, I'm reading from the same page that you're on. Whatever market presently exists for a standalone scaler can share the same design platform with a blending machine. From a hardware standpoint, it just needs another output, which as Ofer stated, is desirable even without blending. The rest is just software to do the blending. I would like to think that within a year or so, all standalone scalers will have blending capabilities - But maybe I'm just dreamin'.

Bob

This absolutely can be done in a cost effective manor.

The folks at Aurora Multimedia come awful close to having the goods with their DIDO scalers which offer everything you need except the essential soft-edge blending feature.

Analog Way will be introducing a stand alone blender only at some point this quarter, but it will not likely be inexpensive since it will have the capability of up to 16 simultaneous blends!!

What would the market really be for blended CRT projectors?

I would consider adding an additional 8" CRT to my theater if I could blend and get a substantial improvement in PQ. And I would certainly upgrade in the Lumagen line.

As I watch Florida and OSU play, I wonder how much better the picture could be...

A scaler with the option to blend at a reasonable price sure seems like a really cool development.

I definitely believe Lumagen can gain market share and a leg up on the competition with the ability to blend.

I look forward to how this develops.

Again, I don't think the market is sufficient enough to justify it just for the sake of maybe 100-500 additional sales to multi-CRT owners.

I see it more like a NASCAR sponsor.

Having thousands of AVS'ers following the threads and screenshots of a few dozen people here who want to blend multiple projectors... that might make it worth pursuing if Lumagen has the R&D inspiration, technical talent, plus a little marketing vision.

Our DVX BlendZilla solution, from Analog France, is a broadcast switcher on steroids and to meet the switcher hardware requirements, has two switch banks, two transcoders and two scalers within, as well as RGB, DVI and HDSDI outputs in pairs. Pretty much the box Folsom intended, but never produced. I believe the results were worth it.

Those interested may want to visit the Midwest thread from three weeks ago, start at the middle of this page: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=729705&page=11&pp=30

and further along, some screen shots:


http://crtforum.com/img/cliff09.jpg

http://crtforum.com/img/cliff10.jpg

http://crtforum.com/img/cliff11.jpg

http://crtforum.com/img/cliff12.jpg


Tim, most AVS folks have never met you . Those of us who have know you look a bit squirrly. Must be nice to have such great family photos that you can post them here at AVS!!!@@@

So Guys at Lumagen....what do you think about blending? still an option for the future?


Athanasios

Love this CRT addiction

The Radiance has two digital outputs which could be used for a blended output. A blended output is on our list of possible future enhancements for the product. But right now we need to finish the product development. In the future we might consider adding some new features such as a blended output.

We just want you to know that we are taking your suggestion seriously but no decision will be made on this possible feature until after the product is in full production.

Best regards,
Randy Freeman

Randy,

I ofcourse understand & applaud the need for Lumagen to concentrate on the new product.

I think quite a few CRT'ers would wait on a blending solution from Lumagen if they had some kind of definite idea that it would be attempted.

Look at the amount of interest in this thread about a possible solution from the TVOne folks.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=832362

Randy,

I ofcourse understand & applaud the need for Lumagen to concentrate on the new product.

I think quite a few CRT'ers would wait on a blending solution from Lumagen if they had some kind of definite idea that it would be attempted.

Look at the amount of interest in this thread about a possible solution from the TVOne folks.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=832362

I agree mark, I will hopefully get my second PJ this week and the TVone Scaler as well, still have to send an e-mail to them that i'm ready. I have an HDQ lumagen right now and love it! When i get the tvone i'l see how it is in the scaling department if it sucks but blends well i'll see if it has a pass mode so i will use the lumagen first in the chain then the tvone to the PJ's not sure about anything yet. I'll keeep this thread posted also on my progress. I'd really like to see the Software in the Radiance do this i think it be a great addition and maybe even a way for lumagen to expand into the presentation market alittle more!

Athanasios

I'll keeep this thread posted also on my progress

Athanasios - has anything come of your TVONE test?

Yes, how do those two cards perform - they look like great scalers as well :)

I had the C2-7200 and one C2 2250 but i never got my second projector up and running properly. so i was just experimenting with one PJ and looking at the scaling features it has which are very very good. MadMrH on this forum has been in contact with the people at TVone and has done much more testing than i have. He has told me that the techs at TVone are extremely helpful and have been adding features that he has been suggesting just for home theater blends i presume. He says with in the next few months some major changes are going to be coming.

Tvone doesn't use any of the off the shelf chip sets on the market so they do everything in house and the entire chip is run by their own programs which means that the unit will always be upgradable with firmware updates and not limited to the programs of the makers chip sets. This means their units will never be obsolete in a specific line of scalers.

Having said all this, I still am wishing for a Lumagen Blend option. I love their scalers and think that since they are already scalers made for home theater lovers that they would have a great oportunity to make a great scaler with blend features or add it via firmware to their already existing line if there is not any hardware issues. Of course if this was added to current models there would be two scalers needed for a blend. But this is already one way to do it with the C2-2000 series from TVone, and i found prcing from Viscount electronics for two of their C2-2255 @ $2095 so $ 4190 for a blend which is near the cost of the lumagen radiance. Of course you would need t have a dvi splitter and TVone has those for around 225. this is not a bad cost for a blend set up now and no waiting for Lumagen to have their solution come around. But, I can wait for more than one reason, cash and time. ;)

MadMrH posted here his time with the C2-7200 post # 59 is the start of it.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=832362&highlight=blending&page=2

I'm very tempted to just max out a charge card and get two C2-2255 units and a dvi splitter and just go for it!

Athanasios

I'm very tempted to just max out a charge card and get two C2-2255 units and a dvi splitter and just go for it!


How about not maxxing out a charge card and getting a pair of TV ONE C2-260 cards instead? Viscount Video quoted me a price of $695 for one - that's $1390 for two, much less than $4190. Should be the same performance.

Not sure if i would want the cards, the break out cable that comes with it looks like it would create more of a mess in my already messy spagetti bowl of cabnett ! I just like the box style units with there displays to help you along in the set up. you dont need a pc connected to see what parameters you have set up. I think with the card you might be able to just use the display your blending to see the values of the blend zone and all but nit realy sure if that is how it works. there is alot involved in a blend and i want to see what values i have for each setting on a display. Now if some one on this forum is ingenious enough to make a box with power suply to hous the cards and maybe incorporate the break out cable with traditional connectors on the box then it be alot nicer. But maybe if we got enough people together on here we can do a power buy? I should email TVone and/or Viscount and see what kind of pricing we could get!I think 20 units for 10 blend rigs might get us under 1700 per unit. just a thought.

Athanasios

In case anyone is interested in the C2-260, I asked Viscount Video what the PC system requirements were, and got an answer that there were none; "The card just sits inside of the PC and draws power, there is no communication between the card and the PC.". Also I asked if it could simply be powered by a 12 volt power supply and the reply was "Yes, this would be possible. However if they don’t want to use a PC they would probably be better off with the external version of this unit the 1T-C2-250.". Don't know anything about this card. I doubt if it offers the blending feature.

I have a PDF of the C2-260 manual. PM me with your e-mail address if you want a copy.