Hi,

I am trying to max out the performance of my blend rig equipment (2 Marquee 9500 Ultras w/ MP V2 mods, new tubes and GT17 lenses) and I am curious as to what could it be out there that is better...

The G90 is kept in very high regard, and those who own it prefer it to a M9500 (Ultras included?), and the other big one is the Barco 1209/s but it looks like Barco is not very popular in the US (compared to Sony or EHOME).

I have been trying to pinpoint some specifics comparing the Marquee and the G90, here's my thoughts, focused on PQ alone after reading a lot:

* Marquee has cleaner video-chain than G90, resulting in higher bandwidth
* Marquee has 45 point convergence control, G90 has 28 (Curt's site)
* G90 has better optics (HD10F seem to be even better than GT17s at corner focus). Direct comparison between HD10F and HFQ900 seems elusive.
* G90 has 6-pole astig vs. 2, 4 or 6 of Marquees (you have to be lucky or look explicitly to get a 6-pole one)
* G90 has LUGs by default, which are sharper than LCPs (Marquee's)
* G90 has the (apparent) ability to focus blue better than the Marquee.
* Both need modded C-elements to get better color reproduction (Marquee in red, G90 in green).

I know this might be controversial, and that you can possibly mod any of the two to neglect the differences. In addition, availability of replacement parts or noise are not considered, the Marquee would have an edge here.

I also know that while those might be spec differences and the resulting picture may or may not reflect the difference in any one's favours in a real-life environment.

I am specifically interested in those of you that have seen both in action and have decided in any particular direction. In addition, I am particularily interested in the HD10F lenses used in the G90... could they also be responsible for the reported edge sharpness of the G90?

Thanks in advance!

Andres

hother hombre, nunca estas contento!! :p

This is where I laugh my tail off at those who belittle AmPro's. Both my 3600HD and 4600HD have zero noise and zero streaking. What little noise is in my image comes from the NEC switcher. :cool:

Chip

Well... I don't think Ampros would work for my blending project... has anybody managed to get two Ampros working at the same time? ;) Looks like it's hard enough to get even one...

For me the de facto standard is either 9500Ultra or BArco 1209s. THe Ampro 4600 for me would come as a close second, and unless I had a complete working G90 as backup parts for a stack of G90s, I would NOT consider them.

Let's hope a couple of the G90 people chime in here, there are almost NO parts available for them, and currently there's at least one G90 owner that is sending me a board for repairs, as Sony no longer carries it. I'll try and repair it blind, without a working set to test it in. That's just too scary a prospect for me when it comes to reselling sets that I can't back up with support.

The fellow in France that I sold my defective G90 to that I spent 20 hours on without being able to find the problem has come to the same conclusion that I did: something is dragging down the data communication line between modules, now he has to FIND where the problem is. Fortunately he has a second working G90 that he can swap parts out of.

So unless I find 2-3 G90s at the same time for cheap, that's one set that I won't be selling any time soon.

Well you all know what I feel about the G90. Short of the factory and maybe Henry Fu I think I have sold more G90's that anyone I know of.
With that said, and except for one G90 that had an odd problem of cracking new G tubes, they have been very very reliable so parts to date haven't been an issue. I have been running that G90 that was cracking tubes in my theater for 6 months now without issue. I believe I found the problem to be leaving an all white screen on to long caused the glass to overheat which causes cracking.
That's not to say that something won't go in the future and I'll have to struggle with repairing it IF Sony doesn't have the parts. But then Sony is still offering warranty on new G90's so they are definately repairing them. It just that you have to pay for that service so DIY with a G90 isn't as easy as a 9500 or 1209S with the abundance of spares floating around. G90's stay in service and except for one that was being sold by a forum member that Curt and I were trying to buy as a "spares" machine, they aren't around. They are just to good to religate to spares no matter what their condition.

Curt, if you are getting the board I think you are, I think a transistor let go on the G channel looking at the schematic.

If something is dragging down the data line between modules, does that mean it is in the mother board?? If so, is something perhaps under it (a screw, washer, etc?) that could be taking the line down. I think if I were John, I would disassemble the entire G90 down to bare chassis and inspect and clean everything.

So anyone that doesn't want their G90 anymore and want to let it go, just get in touch with me and I'll take it off your hands.......

Terry

I think we all agree that availability of Marquee parts is significantly higher than G90's. But how about quality? Do the LUGs, HD10F and better blue focus (if it is better indeed) make a difference?

Clarence, Cliff... I believe you have seen Marquees in action prior to jumping on the G90 bandwagon... why?

BTW, I am not even remotely considering upgrading (either upwards or sidewards)... I just want to understand what the fuss is about. I have not even set up the Marquees yet (my room is still being worked on).

Regards!

Terry I agree with what you say, but it would just be my luck to sell a G90 that fails 6 months after I sell it.

It's probably the same board..:) If Sony has discontinued the board, what the heck are they going to do it they have a warranty unit that has that board toast? Supposedly they don't do board level repairs any more. "Sir, we can't repair it, how about we give you a brand new Pearl?"

I also agree with your analysis, but the set came out of an HT installation and failed after 8000 some-odd hours on it. I'd suspect a short on the data line. I've had a couple of Barcos get shorted FETs or Optos on the I2R line that also caused I2R errors on the screen. Hard to find, but with the BArcos I've got spare boards galore, so finding the bad board is easy.

I won't pass up G90s. Somewhere out there I know there's still a bunch of surplus units... IN fact keeping a working one with bad tubes will probably prove to be VERY profitable in the future when Sony will refuse all service to CRTs like NEC has done for a few years now..

Andres,

Stock for stock from what I have learned and seen, the G90 has a much tighter beam spot than the Marquee. I've never seen MP's mods so I cannot comment on them, but in my opinion, the G90 needs no mods out of the box unless you want quieter fans. ;)

As far as zone convergence, if you know how to properly set up a CRT, very, very, very minimal zone convergence is needed hence negating the use of it period. This coming from a CRT'r that is the "POINT KING". :eek: :D

The G90 also has much more extreme control of Geometry allowing for stacking (side by side) as well as built in component transcoding. Also don't let people fool you, the lug is a SHARPER focusing tube than a stock Marquee P19 as well.

Cliff

So anyone that doesn't want their G90 anymore and want to let it go, just get in touch with me and I'll take it off your hands.......

Terry

After our conversation and much thought, you go ahead and try and pry my G90's from my cold dead hands......... :p

Cliff

I wish I could say that I've compared my 9ultra to a G90, but I haven't, nor have I seen a G90 in person.
But I could have had a G90, 9500LC, 1209s or 4600... and I chose the 9500LC because I felt it's potential was the greatest based on the research I did on the Internet and speaking with techs in the field.

Had I been restricted to "out of the box" performance, I may have tried harder to view a G90 before buying the 9500LC.

Btw, I did take the lens off a Sony (HD10F) and put them on my 9ultra. And I may eventually borrow the focus yoke from a Sony as well.

Well... I don't think Ampros would work for my blending project... has anybody managed to get two Ampros working at the same time? ;) Looks like it's hard enough to get even one... :D

For me the de facto standard is either 9500Ultra or BArco 1209s. THe Ampro 4600 for me would come as a close second, and unless I had a complete working G90 as backup parts for a stack of G90s, I would NOT consider them.

Let's hope a couple of the G90 people chime in here, there are almost NO parts available for them, and currently there's at least one G90 owner that is sending me a board for repairs, as Sony no longer carries it. I'll try and repair it blind, without a working set to test it in. That's just too scary a prospect for me when it comes to reselling sets that I can't back up with support.

The fellow in France that I sold my defective G90 to that I spent 20 hours on without being able to find the problem has come to the same conclusion that I did: something is dragging down the data communication line between modules, now he has to FIND where the problem is. Fortunately he has a second working G90 that he can swap parts out of.

So unless I find 2-3 G90s at the same time for cheap, that's one set that I won't be selling any time soon.Curt, one has to think anyone that would recommend Ampros but not G90s is serving a personal agenda. ;)

As pointed out, 9500s have plenty of parts floating around, but G90s rarely seem to break. Hard choice. I would certainly rather have a G90, but maybe my mind would be more at ease with a 9500.

Btw, I did take the lens off a Sony (HD10F) and put them on my 9ultra. And I may eventually borrow the focus yoke from a Sony as well.

So... what were your impressions on the HD10F vs. the Marquee (H10 or GT17s) ones?

So... what were your impressions on the HD10F vs. the Marquee (H10 or GT17s) ones?

It's difficult to say because I never did a direct comparison and my screen and home have changed in between. When I lived in CA and had a ~90" wide screen, I felt the GT17 gave me the best picture (against 10's and 10L's) but didn't have the 10F's to compare against at the time..

Now I live in TX and have HD10F and use an ~82" wide screen, and I am currently getting the best corner focus I've ever seen. So I'm going to assume the 10F is better in this regard, for this screen size at least. I no longer have my GT17's so I can't make the direct comparison.

I hope to eventually get back to a screen size of ~108" wide and at that time I'll want to compare the GT17 to 10F. Especially to compare center focus.

How does the Ampro 4600 stack up against the 9500 or the 1209?
Include parts availability and reliability in your replys.
How would a 4600 in mint shape compare to a XG1352 also in mint shape?

Good point Phil, but I haven't had a 4600 in months....

Seriously, with all of the Ampro bashing here, my stance has always been that post 1993 or so, Ampro figured out most of the issues that caused problems.

I sold an NOS Ampro 2 years ago, and the customer put 2500 hours on it before a neck board died. $75 later and he was up and running again.

That's a circa 1990 set. I'd say that ANY 1990 vintage set at this point would break down every 2500 hours or so, NOS or not.

The Spellman HVPS have NEVER been anyone's favorite HVPS whether in Marquees or Ampros. Thanks to the work that Spellman did with Ampro pre 1993, they managed to work out a bunch of the bugs before Marquees got revision 10 or whatever they were up to at that time.

So knock Ampro all you want. THey're not bad sets.

Curt,

Many Ampro owners seem to be happy with their PJs, so I'm sure certain models are good PJs. But if you put told a 100 people the could have for free their choice between two 4600s or one G90, 99 would pick the G90. The one guy that picked the 4600s would be you! ;) :D

Curt,

Many Ampro owners seem to be happy with their PJs, so I'm sure certain models are good PJs. But if you put told a 100 people the could have for free their choice between two 4600s or one G90, 99 would pick the G90. The one guy that picked the 4600s would be you! ;) :D

Sorry, make that two. :p Sure I'd like to have a G90, a 909 and a 9500LC, all at the same time :D but my projector of choice is my 4600HD. And yes, it is down at this time but I'm sure it's my fault. I fell asleep watching a DVD and woke up to a cracked green tube. The movie I was watching has a very bright menu screen which was on for hours after the movie ended which probably overheated the tube. I will re-tube it and replace or at least go through the neck boards at the same time. I like it because it's quiet and has a clean image with awsome color (installed r and g c-elements) and zero streaking. Oh, did I forget to mention that it's only 12 1/2 inches tall? Great for low ceilings. I run the crap out of my projectors. In the last two years, that projector has been on more than off. In that time I've had a couple of minor problems. Hvps, had to re-solder a couple of bad connections. A burned plug on the focus board which I repaired by hard wiring it and a red neck board which I also repaired myself. I paid $1,500.00 for the projector with remote, GT-17 lenses and factory mount. I bought a 3600HD for under $200.00 with remote and mount for spare parts. The 3600 shares all the same internal components as the 4600. Only the tubes and motherboard are different. As far as I'm concerned, you all can continue to treat them as if they have the clap :rolleyes: It keeps my parts cheap :D

Chip

Sorry, make that two. :pSorry Chip! I forgot about you. Make that two weirdos. ;)

Yes I am. Whoever makes their living restoring electronics antiques is certifiable. No question there.

Dang Chip, something is wrong there. These CRT projectors are designed to display bright static images for hours on end. Okay the whole burn-in thing is stupid, but how many CRT's have you seen for sale that had a map of a subway system, or the united states burned into them. Those are images being displayed for hours, days, weeks and even months on end without really being turned off.
If I were you I would look into adding some fans or something before you blow another $1k on a green tube. Because something is not right there.
Heck I've done the same thing... fallen asleep and woken up eight hours later staring at a static DVD menu screen. Never had a problem though. Not even any burn-in.

***this cracked tube thing is not normal***

I'm pretty sure it was simply due to a flaw in the tube itself.

I had a local customer call this past week. He went on holidays and forgot to turn off the projector, and his computer didn't go into screen saver mode. THe set was on 24/7 for a week, and yes, the G and B tubes had a taskbar burnt in..:( So it can happen....

Well, for whatever reason it did it, it did it :( In defence of my theory, I do have the image right out to the edge which means the raster is at the edge but blanked to protect the tube edge. I use every bit of available real estate in order to get the degree of resolution I require. I did a quick check with the green disconnected and the blanking is still where it was set so I don't think I was touching the edge. I have not had time to mess with it but I need a known good used green tube and a replacement green neck board to test it with. I think the green Marquee tube that I installed in it was defective when I got it. The green neck card that was on the tube when it puked out is toast. I tried a correctly modded known good blue card on the marquee green and it went full on. Curt has some used tubes on the way hopefully there'll be a suitable green that's worth taking the time to install and check everything out. If everything is back to normal, I'll re-tube it when I go on vacation this late spring. Right now, it's still hanging from the ceiling with the lenses off and the $200.00 3600HD on a table below it. The 3600 is a great performer. I have resolved 1080P with it and jtnfoley was here to see it and measure the aspect ratio to insure I was not cheating :D

Chip

The 3600 is a great performer. I have resolved 1080P with it and jtnfoley was here to see it and measure the aspect ratio to insure I was not cheating :D

Chip


Saw with mine own eyes. Clean on/off at 1080p (granted, near the center and at 48 Hz.)


Oh, did I forget to mention that it's only 12 1/2 inches tall? Great for low ceilings.

Chip

Oh just admit it... you could have a 'Quee hanging from the ceiling and not risk skull damage! :D :D :D

Oh my! I wished this thread to be an objective (and subjective for those who had seem both) comparison of the G90 and the Marquee, and it turned out to be an Ampro self-defense one.... :(

Oh that's fine. Our resolution for 2007 is to pick on Barco owners...;)

Oh that's fine. Our resolution for 2007 is to pick on Barco owners...;)

My resolution is 1080 X 1920...

Ampros and 1292s--PJs only a delusional fanboy could love. ;) :D

Ampros and 1292s--PJs only a delusional fanboy could love. ;) :D


What?! I can't hear you... Let me turn my projector off... ;)

What?! I can't hear you... Let me turn my projector off... ;):D

What?! I can't hear you... Let me turn my projector off... ;)

No need to, it will turn off by itself soon enough. Check for an error message on the LED display under the top cover on the 1292. :D

Oh my! I wished this thread to be an objective (and subjective for those who had seem both) comparison of the G90 and the Marquee, and it turned out to be an Ampro self-defense one.... :(

As there was no mention of brand in the title I figured it was open for discussion.
But just so ya know, last year about this time jtnfoley and I took a ride to HiRez to see their latest, greatest fully modded 9500LC Ultra. I left with a very warm feeling about my 4600HD and thats why I have not persued a 9500LC for myself.
You can keep the quee and leave me my HD :p

Chip

No need to, it will turn off by itself soon enough. Check for an error message on the LED display under the top cover on the 1292. :D

Pfft! Real men don't need no sissy covers on their projectors.

Anyways, there's one thing I don't worry about with my 1292 - reliability!

I think every electronics tech should be required own an Ampro. That leaves the dependable brands for those of us that don't know how or want to work on them. ;)

I think every electronics tech should be required own an Ampro. That leaves the dependable brands for those of us that don't know how or want to work on them. ;)

And puts the really hi-end projectors in the hands of those who really know what they are doing :p

Chip

What you say is true! How can one learn if they own a PJ that never breaks? While I'm suffering thru one beautiful movie after another, you're yanking your PJ off the ceiling and working on it on a weekly basis. Under these circumstances, you couldn't help but know a lot more than I.

It's not fair! I'm tired of just watching movies! I want my PJ to break all the time like Ampros! :( ;)

Pfft! Real men don't need no sissy covers on their projectors.

Anyways, there's one thing I don't worry about with my 1292 - reliability!

Be that as it may, what you should start worrying about is parts availability; I am told that 1292 tubes are not rebuildable.......or is the buzz incorrect on that?

Geezzzzz.....

You guys just need to get the one and only BEST CRT out of the box EVER made for HT.

May I present:

DA G90!!!!! :cool: :D ;) :p

The Cliffster

Be that as it may, what you should start worrying about is parts availability; I am told that 1292 tubes are not rebuildable.......or is the buzz incorrect on that?


I think I have about 1100 hours on my tubes, and 1292's are known to be very long lasting tube-wise. Plus with my Torus screen I get a nice bright 110" wide screen without pushing it hard. Add that to the fact I only use the projector about 200 hrs a year... Lets just say I don't believe I will ever have to buy tubes.

Plus I'd imagine I'll upgrade to digital long before I'd need new tubes. My biggest HT wish is to go with a 15' wide screen. I think it will be a few years before a bright enough digital with CRT PQ is released for a reasonable amount (5K or so). But right now 1292 with tse gamma card and Torus screen works just fine for me!

Geez, we can go around again on this:

1292- few parts out there, tubes not rebuildable, some had green phosphor flaking issues.
G90- no parts out there period.
Ampro- maybe a BIT less reliable than others, but easy to fix and lots of parts out there.

Someone can correct me on this, but doesn't the G90 have a bigger (and probably better) focus yoke than the other brands? I would think focusing ability is a high priority to getting a small spot size.

Geez, we can go around again on this:

1292- few parts out there, tubes not rebuildable, some had green phosphor flaking issues.
G90- no parts out there period.
Ampro- maybe a BIT less reliable than others, but easy to fix and lots of parts out there.

Heh heh, Curt wants us all to get Ampros so he can retire in comfort... ;)

Sorry Chip! I forgot about you. Make that two weirdos. ;)

Make that 3. I'm still rebuilding the 4000G.

Let me clarify that simply owning an Ampro PJ doesn't make you weirdo. Preferring them to G90s is what gives you wacko status. ;) Hallucinogenics or schizophrenia have to be involved to have such an irrational preference. :D

Let me clarify that simply owning an Ampro PJ doesn't make you weirdo. Preferring them to G90s is what gives you wacko status. ;) Hallucinogenics or schizophrenia have to be involved to have such an irrational preference. :D

CLASSIC!!!!! :eek: :D :eek: :D

**EDIT not to offend anyone** :^)

The Cliffster

**EDIT not to offend anyone** :^)I saw that! Any activity that could induce blindness is not a good idea for a videophile.

Hmm.. video or (well...you know)? Does make for a difficult choice! :D

I saw that! Any activity that could induce blindness is not a good idea for a videophile.

Hmm.. video or (well...you know)? Does make for a difficult choice! :D

LOL. Just a bit too much alcohol in me last night..... My posts are going to get much worse tonight. :eek: :D

Cliff

LOL. Just a bit too much alcohol in me last night..... My posts are going to get much worse tonight. :eek: :D

Cliff
So how do you tell "just a bit too much" from "too much"?

I guess if you stumble and fall, and remember it the next morning, then it's a "bit too much". However, if you stumble and fall and wake up the next morning (with a hangover) and say to yourself "How the heck did I get that scrape on my forehead?" then it's "too much". :)

So how do you tell "just a bit too much" from "too much"?

I guess if you stumble and fall, and remember it the next morning, then it's a "bit too much". However, if you stumble and fall and wake up the next morning (with a hangover) and say to yourself "How the heck did I get that scrape on my forehead?" then it's "too much". :)

LOL. That's actually what happened to me here a couple of times the next morning.....

"What the hell did I post last night????" :eek: :D

One of these days I'll grow up........ :)

Cliff

Let me clarify that simply owning an Ampro PJ doesn't make you weirdo. Preferring them to G90s is what gives you wacko status. ;) Hallucinogenics or schizophrenia have to be involved to have such an irrational preference. :D


While we're on the subject of "weirdo's" consider this. Is it worth eight times more money to gain less than 5% picture improvement that can only be detected at the highest scan rates? If you say yes to that than your're head frigged.
Let's say you have a choice of cars. On one hand you have a Rolls Royce and the other a Lincoln. Sure we'd all like the Rolls but will it do a better job of getting you from home to the office then the Lincoln? This G 90 thing has turned into a "keep up with the Jonse's" thing. I've got much better things to do with my money than waste it trying to better someone else. For most of us this is a hobby. For some of you an obsession and a few of you a sickness. I'm happy with the choice I've made so please stop trying to rub my nose in it. It ain't gonna work. So good luck with your choices and may the force be with you and your check-book. From this day forth, I will no longer respond to AmPro bashers. I'll just sit back and feel sorry for those who can't just say no.

Chip

Chip,

It's all in fun. You shouldn't take it so personally.

While we're on the subject of "weirdo's" consider this. Is it worth eight times more money to gain less than 5% picture improvement that can only be detected at the highest scan rates? If you say yes to that than your're head frigged.
Let's say you have a choice of cars. On one hand you have a Rolls Royce and the other a Lincoln. Sure we'd all like the Rolls but will it do a better job of getting you from home to the office then the Lincoln? This G 90 thing has turned into a "keep up with the Jonse's" thing. I've got much better things to do with my money than waste it trying to better someone else. For most of us this is a hobby. For some of you an obsession and a few of you a sickness. I'm happy with the choice I've made so please stop trying to rub my nose in it. It ain't gonna work. So good luck with your choices and may the force be with you and your check-book. From this day forth, I will no longer respond to AmPro bashers. I'll just sit back and feel sorry for those who can't just say no.

Chip

Chip,

First of all chill dude and HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!! :D

I will have to add though, until you see a G90 or even a VERY WELL SETUP G70 crank phosphor like you could never imagine, well, you havent seen CRT. :)

Although, I have no personal experience with Ampro projectors, and never having seen a MP2 modded 9500, I'll have to stick with my G90 Stack.

Cliffy

Cliff-

Am I understanding you correctly that you've never seen an Ampro 4600, or a MP modded 9500, yet you're going to claim that the G90 is so superior to these other models? That's what you're saying, right? I'm sorry but I just don't know how you're coming to that conclusion when you haven't seem them in action. Are you basing that on someone else's testimonial?

I've owned about a dozen or so CRT projectors, and I've enjoyed learning and tweaking each one. I've been fascinated with what makes one projector better than another, and I've had fun comparing the ones that I've owned. Some were clearly better performers than others.

10 minutes ago I just finished watching the first movie on my new G90. The set-up I did was only rough at best, so it's far too soon to make any judgements. But my plan over the next several weeks is to do my own critical evaluation of my G90, my G70, and my Ampro 4600HD. If I find that the G90 isn't far and away the best of the group then I'll probably sell it. It's just too expensive to keep if it's only marginally better than the others.

I've been enjoying my G70 for about a year. I re-tubed my 4600 several weeks ago but haven't had the time to play with it yet. And 2 weeks ago the opportunity came about to get the G90 at a decent price. So I went for it. Now I'm looking forward to having my own little shootout to see who gets to stay and who has to go. I kinda hope that the 4600 looks nearly as good as the G90 because it was quite a bit cheaper, and I have spare parts for it. But the G90 probably wins in the bandwidth department, and if I start throwing 1080p into the mix then that could be a deciding factor. We'll see.

Play nice :)

I wonder if the G90 (or for that matter all high end 9" PJ's) is brought down to size on a high gain screen of moderate size? The G90 has two things that are important to HT, spot size and brightness. Use a high gain screen and both of those are easier to get by lesser PJ's. My 10PG's spot size is way smaller at the lower contrast settings I use and that's on a 161" screen.

So mtmelvin, use a smaller or higher gain screen and you could off the G90.

Deron.

That's a very interesting idea but CRT projectors have "Hot Spot" issues on higher gain screens. I've seen it myself.

-Mark

So mtmelvin, use a smaller or higher gain screen and you could off the G90.

Deron.

Can you document that, seeing a hot spot? Sure if you put up a all white screen you can see hot spotting, but during a movie you would have to get out the measuring equipment. There was a thread long ago in a distance galaxy that had three screen shots (pretty sure they were flat screens too) of different gain screens, you could see the hot spotting comparing the images, but there would be no way to tell not knowing what the image was supposed to look like. Sure there will be someone that will say they can tell, must have been one boring ass movie:)

"See that, rewind it, there's something wrong with that image"

Deron.

Here is what I see on my screen right now. Looks like hot spotting to me.

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l108/mtmelvin/ss01.jpg

I chose a bright scene to make it obvious, but it's pretty noticeable most of the time. Please forgive the poor set-up and focus of this projector. It's just a very rough set-up done in about 30 minutes yesterday. The projector is floor mounted and I sit behind it. The screen is 45"x80" and it's 45" from the floor to screen center.

I'm not exactly sure what gain this screen is. I made this screen with fabric that I removed from a Draper electric screen that was being thrown away. It's a very smooth, thin, rubbery material. It's definitely not glass beaded.
Prior to this screen I was using a homemade blackout cloth screen of the same size and I never saw this issue.

This shot was taken from my seated position, approximately.

10 minutes ago I just finished watching the first movie on my new G90. The set-up I did was only rough at best, so it's far too soon to make any judgements. But my plan over the next several weeks is to do my own critical evaluation of my G90, my G70, and my Ampro 4600HD. If I find that the G90 isn't far and away the best of the group then I'll probably sell it. It's just too expensive to keep if it's only marginally better than the others.
:)Mtmelvin, it looks like you do have the means to make a very good comparison between two very fine 9"crts. Please let us all know here what you end up observing, I for one would be very interested in just how far apart the 4600 compares to the G90 performance wise.

I for one would be very interested in just how far apart the 4600 compares to the G90 performance wise.

Yeah, so would I. I haven't heard of anyone comparing these two models before so it should be interesting. I will definitely share my findings. I'm far from an expert so I'm sure that these projectors won't be performing at their "peak," but I will get them as close as I can and I'll be glad to share my findings.

-Mark

Here is what I see on my screen right now. Looks like hot spotting to me.

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l108/mtmelvin/ss01.jpg

I chose a bright scene to make it obvious, but it's pretty noticeable most of the time. Please forgive the poor set-up and focus of this projector. It's just a very rough set-up done in about 30 minutes yesterday. The projector is floor mounted and I sit behind it. The screen is 45"x80" and it's 45" from the floor to screen center.

I'm not exactly sure what gain this screen is. I made this screen with fabric that I removed from a Draper electric screen that was being thrown away. It's a very smooth, thin, rubbery material. It's definitely not glass beaded.
Prior to this screen I was using a homemade blackout cloth screen of the same size and I never saw this issue.

This shot was taken from my seated position, approximately.

Do I see the light from the CRT lenses bouncing off of that screen?

Cliff

Do I see the light from the CRT lenses bouncing off of that screen?

Cliff

Yeah, you do. I am assuming that this can be attributed to the gain of the screen. It's really annoying.

-Mark

Yes, just like I said, put up a all white screen ( all green, all red, all blue...) and you can see the hot spotting. Try posting what you see 99% of the time in a movie, a mixed image and you can not see the hot spotting.

Now if you have gotten into high gain screens (with a CRT) you will find alot of the better screens have been curved to spread the hot spot so it is even harder to see. You could try leaning your screen, it looks a little brighter towards the bottom.

I wonder what the gain of that screen is, my screen has a gain of about 4 and it will hot spot with a uniform image (all white, blue, red, green...), but when I put up a all white image, that is what I get, all white, not red, yellow green, blue like I see in your picture. The brightness just falls off towards the edges.

Or are we both right and that screen you have is just a really bad high gain screen.

Deron.

I'm thinking of going for a "higher gain" (flat) screen for my 9500. Could a hot spotting issue be solved/limited using contrast modulation?

// Lyckman

Unfortunately I have no idea what gain this screen is, but it doesn't matter. I'm getting rid of it. I can't stand the hot spotting. It drives me crazy. Believe me, I can see it almost all the time unless it's a really dark scene. Perhaps someone has seen this before and can chime in and tell me why I am getting this rainbow effect at the bottom. Perhaps it's because my projector is floor mounted?

Wow, you use a screne of gain 4?! Is your projector floor mounted or ceiling mounted? And is it flat? In Curt's primer he recommends screens with a gain of 1.8 or less.

Anyway, thank you for your recommendation. It's a very interesting point. I will share what I find when I compare the G70, 4600 and G90.

Hi,

Just my 2c... the Marquee has better tube life because the massive amount of aluminum in the tube mounting serves as a heat sink (Ampro does about the same amount of heat sink ) this leads to longer tube life. G90s have been known to be very hard on tubes, and I believe that this is due to lack of heat dissopation in the tube mounting design of the g90. That is backed up by Terry finding that g90 cracked tubes by leaving a white screen up too long tends to support my theory. It is the heating of the phospher that leads to phospher burn over time, so the lower temp you keep the LC fluid the longer you can go before tube replacement.

We all know that any set that is run hard will burn the tubes, but the marquee and ampro seem to get 2-5k more hours than the g90 before major burn issues.

(Ok, so g90 owners, please remember I am not attacking you, just observing one of the weaknesses of a great machine, so please don't over react :)

God bless...

Mark

I mounted the PJ on the ceiling, I lean the screen back a few degrees so its brightest at the center, otherwise it would be brighter towards the bottom. I have a pretty radical curve in the screen from left to right, this helps spread the hotspot across the screen.

Talk to anyone that has a well set up high gain screen and they will tell you they love it and would never use a lower gain screen. Some of the things that you can enjoy with a high gain screen. Brighter, larger, sharper, longer tube life, better blacks, rejects unwanted light.

Deron.

last year about this time jtnfoley and I took a ride to HiRez to see their latest, greatest fully modded 9500LC Ultra. I left with a very warm feeling about my 4600HD and thats why I have not persued a 9500LC for myself.
You can keep the quee and leave me my HD :p

Chip


Not all Marquees are the same. And don't give up on the 8" Marquees either:

http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/7540/hpim1042bi1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/997/hpim1045ct8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/701/hpim1046ea1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/4482/hpim1038gc2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/7522/hpim1047nq7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Mike is this using the HD-145's ?

Tom

Yep!

Hi stefuel,

Just curious, did you feel that the 4600 has a better pq, or just much less expensive than the modded 9500?


I have a VIM that they modded and it made a very big difference in PQ over the stock, and the stock VIM and 9500lc had a sharper pic, took 1080p well and overall had a better pic than the 4300 that I had. (The tubes were in identical condition)

God bless...

Mark

Unfortunately I have no idea what gain this screen is, but it doesn't matter. I'm getting rid of it. I can't stand the hot spotting. It drives me crazy. Believe me, I can see it almost all the time unless it's a really dark scene. Perhaps someone has seen this before and can chime in and tell me why I am getting this rainbow effect at the bottom. Perhaps it's because my projector is floor mounted?

Wow, you use a screne of gain 4?! Is your projector floor mounted or ceiling mounted? And is it flat? In Curt's primer he recommends screens with a gain of 1.8 or less.

Anyway, thank you for your recommendation. It's a very interesting point. I will share what I find when I compare the G70, 4600 and G90.


Seems like a perfect candidate to turn into a Torus to me...so don't chuck it, Torus it.

Those 8" pics look good; but I am more interested in the hi-end 9" sets: how a 9500LC Ultra (w/ and wo/ MP2 mods) stacks against a G90 or a Cine9/1209s/909.

Once my HT room is finished, I will try to find them time compare my two Ultras w/ MP2 mods against a 9500LC (non-Ultra) w/ MP1 mods and against a 9000LC before and after upgrading it to "almost" a 9500LC (newer HPVS, CLB, VIM, etc.)

When I inquired VDC about using LUGs on my Marquees, the did NOT recommend them for HT use and told me to stick to LCPs, due to higher brightness of the latter. Based on that, LUGs have that con over LCPs.

Other than that I still do not know how a properly modded Marquee 9 Ultra compares to a G90 or a Cine9.

This is exactly what VDC told me regarding LUGs:


Secondly, in regards to the LUG CRTs, although these CRTs are designed for extreme resolution application, I feel the light output requirement typically associated with home theater installations would be too high for the LUGs, losing the advantage of the LUG CRTs resolution capabilities.

I am more interested in the hi-end 9" sets: how a 9500LC Ultra (w/ and wo/ MP2 mods) stacks against a G90 or a Cine9/1209s/909.


It don't think a comparison like this would ever happen, mainly because there's no real reason to make this happen. To put this level of gear into operation with the right source and setup would require a lot of time work ($$$$), to include you'll need to have all products in the same locations for comparison.

I think at this point it's just best to accept that we have several top end 9" CRT projectors, that has been at the top for years. And since each has its strengths and weaknesses, we should just leave things as they are, and not see either of them as being the best, but all as being among the best.

There is no BEST. It's all about preference..

Mike,
What camera are you using?

Looks like it has a lot of "stuck pixels" or dust on the sensor

Mike,
What camera are you using?

Looks like it has a lot of "stuck pixels" or dust on the sensor

No, that's something that happens with the Xbox from time to time when you pause it. But only during motion.

Hmm...

Maybe I should bring one of my 9500LC's home to one of my friend's Cine9 and MAKE this happen.
Not that I see much point though since the Cine 9 will demolish the 9500LC.

Hmm...

Maybe I should bring one of my 9500LC's home to one of my friend's Cine9 and MAKE this happen.
Not that I see much point though since the Cine 9 will demolish the 9500LC.
Most likely with one of YOUR 9500's.. Unless you retube them..
Bring that Cine9 over here for a fair comparison instead. You know where to find me. :P

// Lyckman

I was more thinking of bringing YOUR 9500LC Ultra to his house. Since yours is MP-modded.

This is a nice thread that speculates about the 9500LC vs. the Cine9:
http://archive.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=413691

I understand that the MP mods (both v1 and v2) improve the video-chain, especially as it relates to noise elimination and better bandwidth; but do the improve the focus at all? It looks like the weakest point of the Marquee (compared to Cine9 or G90) is the focus.

The G90 has apparently better focus but worse bandwidth. The Cine9 has it all. The Marquee can be upgraded to surpass the G90 in bandwidth; but I wonder if there are readily available modifications to improve focus?

The G90 has apparently better focus but worse bandwidth. The Cine9 has it all. The Marquee can be upgraded to surpass the G90 in bandwidth; but I wonder if there are readily available modifications to improve focus?

I have both Barco 909 and Marquee's here. And I'm confident that when the dust settles after this, the Marquee will be the clear winner with bandwidth as well..;)

I was more thinking of bringing YOUR 9500LC Ultra to his house. Since yours is MP-modded.
hehe,

The Ultra is not assambled yet. (I have sunday scheduled for that).
I still have the stock (still lowly) 9500LC in my HT. The MP magic is not applied yet. (The boards are yet to arrive).

Both you and I know the perfect place for a shootout.... Don't you have that 909 in stock?

// Lyckman

I have both Barco 909 and Marquee's here. And I'm confident that when the dust settles after this, the Marquee will be the clear winner with bandwidth as well..;)

Mike.... how about focus? Do any of your mods improve focus on the Marquees beyond say a G90?

Mike.... how about focus? Do any of your mods improve focus on the Marquees beyond say a G90?

I don't really want to get into the focus thing, because I believe with HDTV the most important thing is bandwidth. And if the PJ does really well with bandwidth, then you're able to take advantage of 1080P at its best. And when you're able to do that, the sharpness that you're so used to seeing in the foreground is now also in the background.

But to get that sharpness in the background, you'll need a ton of bandwidth. because the video chain has to be very fast and clean to maintain and present that same detail in finer areas.

I'm not that sure at least some Marquees cannot be as sharp as a G90.

Look very closely at the detail and sharpness in the background of that image. And if I were to tell you that that same 8" CRT projector has yet to have it's final focusing, you would not belive me. but if you were present, i could show it to you in person, yte, with good bandwidth, we're getting exceptional sharpness and background detail. And the picture is resized down.


http://img234.imageshack.us/img234/1299/hpim1045dd4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

I don't really want to get into the focus thing, because I believe with HDTV the most important thing is bandwidth. And if the PJ does really well with bandwidth, then you're able to take advantage of 1080P at its best. And when you're able to do that, the sharpness that you're so used to seeing in the foreground is now also in the background.

But to get that sharpness in the background, you'll need a ton of bandwidth. because the video chain has to be very fast and clean to maintain and present that same detail in finer areas.

I'm not that sure at least some Marquees cannot be as sharp as a G90.

Look very closely at the detail and sharpness in the background of that image. And if I were to tell you that that same 8" CRT projector has yet to have it's final focusing, you would not belive me. but if you were present, i could show it to you in person, yte, with good bandwidth, we're getting exceptional sharpness and background detail. And the picture is resized down.


resizing the photo down will improve the sharpness unfortunately. at this resolution a dvd looks as good as a hddvd

resizing the photo down will improve the sharpness unfortunately. at this resolution a dvd looks as good as a hddvd

Please explain how downsizing can make a photo sharper? I remember a site which did a direct comparison of the 1080p and the 480p versions of LOTR. Interestingly, the 1080p shots, even when downconverted to 480p, showed a LOT MORE detail.

I mean this page: http://www.cornbread.org/FOTRCompare/index.html

Those 8" pics look good; but I am more interested in the hi-end 9" sets: how a 9500LC Ultra (w/ and wo/ MP2 mods) stacks against a G90 or a Cine9/1209s/909.

Once my HT room is finished, I will try to find them time compare my two Ultras w/ MP2 mods against a 9500LC (non-Ultra) w/ MP1 mods and against a 9000LC before and after upgrading it to "almost" a 9500LC (newer HPVS, CLB, VIM, etc.)

When I inquired VDC about using LUGs on my Marquees, the did NOT recommend them for HT use and told me to stick to LCPs, due to higher brightness of the latter. Based on that, LUGs have that con over LCPs.

Other than that I still do not know how a properly modded Marquee 9 Ultra compares to a G90 or a Cine9.


well both the 1209s (later model) and Cine 9 have LUG's in them.

does that mean they are driven harder to reach the LCP's brightness?

Michael

resizing the photo down will improve the sharpness unfortunately. at this resolution a dvd looks as good as a hddvd

Ok, where's that DVD?

http://img115.imageshack.us/img115/6359/fullreztt6.th.jpg (http://img115.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fullreztt6.jpg)

I don't really want to get into the focus thing, because I believe with HDTV the most important thing is bandwidth. ]I certainly don't dissagree however bandwidth would not be the reason why G90's are highly sought after in the marketplace. Because the bandwidth of a G90 is probably not that much different than a 1292, yet look at the difference in price.

I think consumers are paying for the G90's bright and sharp picture more than bandwidth. I think they are paying for spot size in a big way. And personally I bet most of it is due to extra focus control of those big coffee can sized yokes.

And personally I bet most of it is due to extra focus control of those big coffee can sized yokes.

Yep, 6 pole that actually DOES SOMETHING when you adjust it! ;) :p

Cliffy

EDIT ** thanks for clarifying

Here is mp's dvd version... where is the shock and awe??

personally they are not lightyears apart


No, neither are DVD versions. one is resized to 800x600, and the other is native from the camera. So both are HDTV images from the same HD-DVD.

Now, you show that a DVD can be sharper than my two HD-DVD images at two different resolutions - that was my question.

No, neither are DVD versions. one is resized to 800x600, and the other is native from the camera. So both are HDTV images from the same HD-DVD.

Now, you show that a DVD can be sharper than my two HD-DVD images at two different resolutions - that was my question.

cool tnx