Industry Insiders Q&A MASTER THREAD [separate thread for Xbox/Add On & PS3] [Text View] - Page 12

amirm

03-15-07, 10:17 PM

My apologies Richard for not answering your post from last night. Even though it was argumentative as usual (:)), I did realize that you, and perhaps a couple of other posters had misunderstood the nature of the tests based on your questions. So I wanted to take the time to properly explain what is going on and hence this longer post.

Amir, would you consider two encoded frames from a VC-1 encoding with no details given on how that encoding was made to be a good representation of VC-1? In other words if somebody showed you a bad example of two VC-1 encoded frames but didn't tell you any of the details of how they got it would you accept that there was a problem with the entire VC-1 codec?
You could replace VC-1 with AVC and everything you said applies to Ron’s posting yet I didn’t see you object then :). No matter, let me explain why your concerns is not very relevant in this case.

What Ron and I were arguing about was NOT which codec is better. Rather, he was arguing that even though AVC can filter up to 3 pixels, in practice, this would not occur in light quantization cases. So the dispute is about the loop filter, and nothing else. He devised a simulation to show his side of the story, we took his idea to the next level and made it even more concrete. Let me explain again how we did that.

The problem with Ron’s test was that he did not have a comparative frame of VC-1 so there was no way to judge what our codec would filter much less in that situation . There was also the big question of which frame he picked and why. After all, there are thousands of frames in that video. So even if one had the VC-1 version, there would be no way to prove that you are fair when you pick one frame out of the whole movie. He also used a 1440p video which is less representative of the topic at hand. But at high level, Ron’s idea for visualizing the results were good so we ran with it.

What we did was to conduct the standard practice in compression circles to examine subcomponents of a codec. We try to fix as many other parameters as we can, as to only notice what is different, in this case, the loop filter. We did this by using “fixed quantization.” As I explained before, the concept of fixed quantization is that you tell the codec to compress the frame at a specific ratio. The codec does not get to choose what data rate to use, nor does the user specify the data rate.

The best analogy for those of you who are photographer is when you compress something with JPEG. You set the “quality” slider of say, 1 to 10, telling the codec to compress the image, and the file size is whatever it is. You are fixing the compression ratio (which is incorrectly labeled as “quality”) and letting the data rate be variable. Since in this test we are just trying to understand how the loop filter works, and not which codec is more efficient, we really don’t care about the output file size and this methodology suits us just fine.

We then went one step further and used a single frame of video. Why not a whole movie? Because if you feed the codec multiple frames, you then are dealing with the entire codec chain and a ton of variables, including motion estimation, predictive frames, etc. (fully inviting your criticism of the test). But we can simplify this by taking advantage of the fact that every half a second or so, an I-frame is generated by the codec and it gets filtered with the loop filter and gets propagated to the following frames. We need to examine the loop filtering for I-frames carefully anyway as any softening created there, lasts for multiple frames. Another bonus here is that we completely eliminate any bias in which frame we pick to compare, because we are only dealing with a single frame. Note that Ron also focused on the I-frame.

To reuse the JPEG analogy here, what we have done is turn both AVC and VC-1 into still image compression codecs, which is a subset of the video encode anyway. Indeed, excellent video codecs have to be excellent still image codecs (both AVC and VC-1 run circles around JPEG for this reason). We can then nicely analyze the output of the system, in this much simplified way, while maintain the full effect and importance of loop filter in an actual video.

Also would you mind telling us which MPEG-4 AVC encoder you used, whether it was main profile or high profile encoding, whether it used 8x8 blocks or 4x4 blocks, how many passes the encoder was set to, the bit rates settings used, how much video was encoded overall to get those two encoded frames, along with any other relevant details of how the encoding was made?
With the above explanation, hopefully you see some of your questions don’t make any sense in this context. Only a single encoding pass was necessary since we only have one frame to encode at a fixed compression ratio (quantization level). And I already explained why it doesn’t make sense to talk about “bit rate” in this test. The bit rate is whatever it wants to be :). The key is that both codecs were told to compress the fame using similar compression ratio.

For block size, we used 4x4 (i.e Main Profile) which is what Ron had used, as to come as closely as we could to his test scenario:
Here's my first attempt at showing the effects of the H.264 loop filter. Note that the BBC streams are Main Profile (4x4 blocks only) and real-time CBR at 1440x1080.
As an FYI, 8x8 blocks would not materially change the behavior of the loop filter.

For Encoder, we used the MPEG reference AVC encoder because it sports a forced quantization mode. Commercial encoders do not have such features as it is used mostly for research (although our VC-1 encode does have it). Before you say other encoders act differently, please read my description above. This is not a codec shoot out. We are not using the bulk of any tuning/black magic that might be in the encoder because we are just encoding a single frame. And are only interested in the loop filter, and not how efficiently the codec is operating. We used the default setting for both codecs btw.

Wouldn't even better data be from professionally made MPEG-4 AVC encodings that have actually been released on Blu-ray..
So by now, you can answer this question yourself. Just in case it is not clear :), the answer is a resounding NO. There would have been no way to have a comparable VC-1 encode with identical treatment of the same frame in both encodes (forgetting for a moment, how one would strip AACS from such a disc to run it in our special decoder when working for a company like Microsoft). Our testing is far more objective and compelling than running things against such movies anyway for the reasons I mentioned.

Summing things up, I post a detailed write up of why VC-1 is superior to AVC in encoding HD material. I went through great length describing various attributes, together with historical perspective and independent data backing the same. One area was disputed by Ron and that was in the case of light quantization, AVC is not being so aggressive with its filtering. We devised a better test, and a fair comparison between the codecs, showing that opposite is true, matching our experience in the field, to say nothing of the views of our top codec experts who have not only designed VC-1, but also led the standardization of AVC and contributed significant logic to it.

amirm

03-15-07, 11:29 PM

@HD-DVD Insiders

First of all, congratulations for a great show at this years Cebit fair in Germany.
Thanks much. I didn't get a chance to go there due to executive reviews here in town. But I hear our event was very well received, due to large European participation from our partners there.

At the end of the press conference/presentation, which was held by the HDDVD Promotion Group, the movie "Bugs" was shown in two versions (standard and 3D). The 3D version has gained a lot of attraction and here comes my question:

Do you know whether this 3D version will be available on HD-DVD and if yes, how is it solved technically to achieve the 3D effect? (are there signals encoded on the disc to control shutter glasses which can switch between interleaved (right/left) image, or is the movie present in 2 parallel tracks without interleaving frames)?

Thanks.
I understand the HD DVD will indeed be 3-D. But do not know what mechanism they are using it. Hoping to find out soon and share with you if we can.

DaViD Boulet

03-15-07, 11:44 PM

Do you know whether this 3D version will be available on HD-DVD and if yes, how is it solved technically to achieve the 3D effect? (are there signals encoded on the disc to control shutter glasses which can switch between interleaved (right/left) image, or is the movie present in 2 parallel tracks without interleaving frames)?

One of the benefits of Blu-ray's bandwidth is that it has room for dual 1080p24 streams that can both be easily compressed. I'd be curious to see how HD DVD handles 3-D applications given its more restrictive bandwidth.

Paidgeek, off topic. When that Fifth Element BD re-release comes out. Can you talk your guys into going 24-bit rather than 16-bit for the PCM or lossless audio? Disney has the 24-bit thing down. Would be nice to see Sony leave 16-bit behind. Since they know the benefits that SACD brings over red-book 16-bit CD, I'd hope they don't need convincing that 16-bit isn't the holy grail of lossless resolution.

thanks!

paidgeek

03-16-07, 12:06 AM

One of the benefits of Blu-ray's bandwidth is that it has room for dual 1080p24 streams that can both be easily compressed. I'd be curious to see how HD DVD handles 3-D applications given its more restrictive bandwidth.

Paidgeek, off topic. When that Fifth Element BD re-release comes out. Can you talk your guys into going 24-bit rather than 16-bit for the PCM or lossless audio? Disney has the 24-bit thing down. Would be nice to see Sony leave 16-bit behind. Since they know the benefits that SACD brings over red-book 16-bit CD, I'd hope they don't need convincing that 16-bit isn't the holy grail of lossless resolution.

thanks!

David, we are preparing our first DD THD title right now "Stomp the Yard". As a test, this one is scheduled to have 16/48 LPCM and 20/48 DD THD. Based on how that works out along with some potential player updates, we will decide where to go from here. I am almost certain that TFE would only have been 16bit in the first place given its vintage, so there is no point in doing 24 bit on that one. Frankly I am not a fan of 24bit LPCM or lossless because consumer equipment can rarely resolve anything past 18 bits anyway. If you have seen bonafide specs on systems (player and D/A included) that can get beyond 110db dynamic range, let me know as I am in the market...

BTW the Sony BDPS1 should have some of the best specs for audio resolution because SEL went to some lengths on the design of the audio section.

Technicolor

03-16-07, 12:12 AM

Sorry for the late reply. I wanted to wait a few days to make sure BD guys were not responding before taking a shot at answering. But then completely forgot about it :).

I realize if I give you a number, it would be hotly disputed by folks with or without the real data. So instead, why don’t I walk you through a process to estimate it, and then you can run with it as needed and adjust things up and down.

The key cost factors, assuming one ignores equipment cost and labor, are yields, cycle time, and material cost. Let’s look at these one by one.

For yield, let’s use 70% for BD-25. I think this is pretty defensible if one uses the industry standard definition of true yield, as opposed to measuring when the machine starts to produce good discs (i.e. including the warm up period). Let’s further agree that the second layer is harder to do and go with a 50% yield for that. To get the composite yield, we multiple the two yield factors and we get 35%. We now have to put on a cover and protective coating, so let’s knock down 20% for this, and we get 28% overall yield.

DVD cycle time is around 2.5 seconds for state-of-the-art equipment. Last number I saw for BD was in 4.6 second range or nearly double that (OK, so I round up, go ahead and shoot me :) ).

Now let’s do part of the math. DVD cost is roughly 50 cents per disc. We would have to double this due to cycle time (since the same factory produces half as many BD discs as compared to DVD), and then multiply it by 100/28 (for the 28% yield) to arrive at a total cost of $3.57 per disc.

"But wait, there is more!" :) BD-50 still uses film coating to best of our knowledge. The material cost for the film is about 70 cents per disc (yes, the cover layer costs more than the entire DVD!). Adding this to above figure gets us to $4.21. Since it is silly to assume we have one cent accuracy in above analysis, let’s drop this down to $4 and call it done.

That's impressive
...and it does explain why I cannot find an independent replicator doing BD50. As I like to say: take all the disc subsidizing and this war is being fought between BD SL25 and HD DVD DL30.

But, Amir, a $3.50 cost over DVD and a $2.50 cost over HD DVD DL30 does not seem THAT much considering the final product.

If we see a HD DVD for, let's say, $20... does that mean that BD50 should cost around $22.50... $23?

Does not look too expensive. What am I missing? :cool:

paidgeek

03-16-07, 01:02 AM

Paid,
Hello there, could you tell me what subtitles the BR discs bought from Japan have please? I'm looking for BR discs with Chinese subs (for my better half:) ) and am hoping i can get them through the net.
Ta,
Will.

Will,

When we include Chinese subs (typically more than half of our releases) you will get them on the North American release. Japan gets its own disc version with only Japanese and English subs. So no need to order discs from overseas.

darkedgex

03-16-07, 01:41 AM

David, we are preparing our first DD THD title right now "Stomp the Yard". As a test, this one is scheduled to have 16/48 LPCM and 20/48 DD THD. Based on how that works out along with some potential player updates, we will decide where to go from here.I was just about to ask what the present situation was re: lossless CODECs. Any chance Sony might also use DTS HD MA (for various reasons I prefer it to Dolby TrueHD)? And for what it's worth, I'd also like to see Sony move towards 24-bit audio.

madshi

03-16-07, 03:32 AM

I've a question about E-AC3. What bit depth is used for E-AC3 encoding? And what bit depth should E-AC3 be decoded to to avoid any quality loss? Is it 16bit or 20bit or 24bit? I've tried to find information about this in the E-AC3 header, but it doesn't seem to be there (unless I missed it).

Thanks!

Ian_S

03-16-07, 03:44 AM

David, we are preparing our first DD THD title right now "Stomp the Yard". As a test, this one is scheduled to have 16/48 LPCM and 20/48 DD THD. Based on how that works out along with some potential player updates, we will decide where to go from here. I am almost certain that TFE would only have been 16bit in the first place given its vintage, so there is no point in doing 24 bit on that one. Frankly I am not a fan of 24bit LPCM or lossless because consumer equipment can rarely resolve anything past 18 bits anyway. If you have seen bonafide specs on systems (player and D/A included) that can get beyond 110db dynamic range, let me know as I am in the market...

BTW the Sony BDPS1 should have some of the best specs for audio resolution because SEL went to some lengths on the design of the audio section.My preference here is that the soundtrack should be encoded at the same bit-depth as the original. I understand that getting a full 24 bits of resolution is not yet possible, but for higher end kit getting more than 16 where available is... DVD-Audio's can sound stunning on the right setup as can SACD.

Wouldn't it be preferable to encode at the maximum so it's in the hands of the customer whether they want to invest in expensive kit that can make a difference? It also gives the high end manufacturers the opportunnity to perhaps make such kit doesn't it?

rover2002

03-16-07, 03:44 AM

Unfortunately, I don't have any details on what they fixed. The only thing I know is that it improves "disc readability". If I find out more, I will report back although I am sure people here will figure it all out before I do :).
Thanks Amirm.

May i ask for your view on the upcoming Warner THD discs? I personally don't see enything wrong with them if we are indeed going to have 2 formats for the forceable future, my only nibble would be price.
Lastly i've been trying to get a 2nd hand copy of 'Biohazard' on HD-DVD. My understanding is they were included with the Japan G1 units. Is there an online 2nd hand store based in Japan where i might find this one or some other store?
Thanks again,
Will.

cyberbri

03-16-07, 05:12 AM

Amir,

I have another question about the update coming to the Xbox 360 this spring and what we can look forward to.

Will this update include new playback functionality for the HD-DVD add-on, such as single-frame advance, slow-mo, etc.? These functions are missing right now. Also, will there be a way to display the information for the disc playing, such as audio and video codec, bit rate, etc.?

Thanks!

DaViD Boulet

03-16-07, 08:22 AM

David, we are preparing our first DD THD title right now "Stomp the Yard". As a test, this one is scheduled to have 16/48 LPCM and 20/48 DD THD. Based on how that works out along with some potential player updates, we will decide where to go from here. I am almost certain that TFE would only have been 16bit in the first place given its vintage, so there is no point in doing 24 bit on that one. Frankly I am not a fan of 24bit LPCM or lossless because consumer equipment can rarely resolve anything past 18 bits anyway. If you have seen bonafide specs on systems (player and D/A included) that can get beyond 110db dynamic range, let me know as I am in the market...

BTW the Sony BDPS1 should have some of the best specs for audio resolution because SEL went to some lengths on the design of the audio section.

Paidgeek,

GREAT news. Naturally providing the full resolution of the LPCM master is all that is required (16 bit if 16 bit), but if the LPCM master is higher-than-16-bit natively, we want all those bits up to 24.

Yes, we know all about the noise-floor of consumer electronics and d/a converters etc. :) Yet for some reason SACD and 24-bit DVD-A just sound *so much better* than 16-bit software... subjectively better than 18-bit to my ears. Kind of the way that LPs sound silky-smooth despite having a noise-floor that measures less than 16-bit digital recording. Lots of theories why noise-floors aren't the last word in perceived wave-form resolution... but that's another topic... ;)

In any caese... GREAT NEWS. Please advocate for 20-24 bit encoding for LPCM as a general rule of thumb over at Sony for us audiophiles... and Lossless packing is fine by most of us. I also prefer DTS-HD (MA) to Dolby True HD only because I get nervous with many of Dolby's "features" like forced dialogue-normalization etc.

Potetgullmannen

03-16-07, 08:54 AM

Will,

When we include Chinese subs (typically more than half of our releases) you will get them on the North American release. Japan gets its own disc version with only Japanese and English subs. So no need to order discs from overseas.

I'm from Norway and my wife's from Thailand, so I appreciate the fact that many of Sony's BD US titles also carry Thai subtitles (which is nice for my wife since she only speaks Thai and Norwegian. No English). I import those Sony US titles with Thai subtitles that work on my Region B Panny player for that reason only. Or else I normally buy the Norwegian/European version with Norwegian subtitles.

Paidgeek, what decides which titles (US) comes with the different languages? Not all Sony US titles carry Asian/Thai subtitles unfortuneately. Also, the newest Sony region A titles doesn't work on my region B player. But I'd actually import a Region A BD player from the US if I could be sure that more movies would come with Thai subtitles. Also, do you know if the other BD studios like Fox, Warner, Paramount, Disney.. will start to support Thai subtitles for their releases?

In a multi cultural home I try to keep everyone happy :)

dobyblue

03-16-07, 08:57 AM

Majority of the DVD Forum board voted to adopt FGT (not just the companies building HD DVD products). Since the BDA companies hold majority position in DVD Forum board, your are saying that BDA companies adopted FGT as to cause Thomson to support HD DVD :p.
When I look through most of the decisions made by the DVD Forum I notice that many of the companies are not represented. Are you saying that the website's information is incorrect and that the BDA's board of director's companies that are founding members of the DVD Forum are actually present at the meetings when most of the decisions are made?

AlexBC

03-16-07, 09:55 AM

paidgeek

03-16-07, 10:16 AM

I was just about to ask what the present situation was re: lossless CODECs. Any chance Sony might also use DTS HD MA (for various reasons I prefer it to Dolby TrueHD)? And for what it's worth, I'd also like to see Sony move towards 24-bit audio.

We are not partial to one lossless codec over another, but at the moment, Dolby is the format of choice because there are decoders in the market for it. As that situation changes, we will re-evaluate.

amirm

03-16-07, 10:18 AM

When I look through most of the decisions made by the DVD Forum I notice that many of the companies are not represented. Are you saying that the website's information is incorrect and that the BDA's board of director's companies that are founding members of the DVD Forum are actually present at the meetings when most of the decisions are made?
I have personally attended half a dozen SC (board) member meetings and every company was present and voted on issues. Even when the key person was not there, another was sent in his/her place. Are you looking at the list of SC meetings or general companies who are members of the DVD Forum? The former is only 19 companies out of 250+ for the latter. Note that there is no concept of "founding members." SC board is elected every two years by the entire forum membership.

paidgeek

03-16-07, 10:27 AM

My preference here is that the soundtrack should be encoded at the same bit-depth as the original. I understand that getting a full 24 bits of resolution is not yet possible, but for higher end kit getting more than 16 where available is... DVD-Audio's can sound stunning on the right setup as can SACD.

Wouldn't it be preferable to encode at the maximum so it's in the hands of the customer whether they want to invest in expensive kit that can make a difference? It also gives the high end manufacturers the opportunnity to perhaps make such kit doesn't it?

I am also in favor of encoding using the same bit depth as the original, but we have to consider the situation where we have several languages on the same disc. The storage and bandwidth difference between 20 and 24 bits is significant (How many HD-DVD titles provide even 1?). For a typical 2 hour movie, those 4 LSB's, cost around 1.2Mbps and 1GB of storage, multiply that times the number of streams. Pretty costly when you consider that it is questionable if you can detect a difference between the 20 and 24 bit versions.

dialog_gvf

03-16-07, 11:30 AM

For yield, let’s use 70% for BD-25. I think this is pretty defensible if one uses the industry standard definition of true yield, as opposed to measuring when the machine starts to produce good discs (i.e. including the warm up period). Let’s further agree that the second layer is harder to do and go with a 50% yield for that. To get the composite yield, we multiple the two yield factors and we get 35%. We now have to put on a cover and protective coating, so let’s knock down 20% for this, and we get 28% overall yield.

The BD-25 yield INCLUDES the cover and protective coating yield reductions. You can't put it through as a layer yield. Using your numbers, the calculation should be:

BD-25 overall yield: 70%
BD-25 layer yield: 87.5% (X - 20% = 70%)

BD-50 second layer yield: 50%
BD-50 two year yield: ~43.75%

BD-50 yield: 35% (- 20%)

As for using a rule that double the cycle time means the replicator charges twice the price, I'd really love to see some evidence that is true. Besides, if they were to do it they would double on their cost, not on the price they charge which includes profit. The DVD price includes replicator profit.

Base price from your numbers:

0.50 * 100/35 = $1.43 + adjustments

But, where is the RELATIVE yield to DVD?. That 100/28 meant you're giving DVD 100% yield.

What is the TRUE yield for DVD?

Gary

EDIT: "adjustments" could be considerable. They would include the cycle time cost (mostly manpower I expect). Extra material costs. And also the lack of competition. Replicators could charge more for BD50 simply because of a lack of competitors. But, of course, they can only go so far before they make 2x BD25 the chosen option.

xradman

03-16-07, 12:47 PM

Kris Deering

03-16-07, 01:08 PM

I am also in favor of encoding using the same bit depth as the original, but we have to consider the situation where we have several languages on the same disc. The storage and bandwidth difference between 20 and 24 bits is significant (How many HD-DVD titles provide even 1?). For a typical 2 hour movie, those 4 LSB's, cost around 1.2Mbps and 1GB of storage, multiply that times the number of streams. Pretty costly when you consider that it is questionable if you can detect a difference between the 20 and 24 bit versions.

While I understand your point about whether you would hear a difference I don't understand your point about languages. Most Sony releases I've seen so far have a French or Spanish DD soundtrack on them but not much else (unless it is a foreign track). None of these are in PCM or a lossless format. So having the primary soundtrack in DTHD OR PCM (not both as that is a bit of a waste of space) at 24/48 or whatever the full resolution is along with up to 3 DD soundtracks shouldn't even be an issue with the bandwidth that BD offers and 50GB discs. It certainly shouldn't cut into your video bandwidth much, especially if you are starting to use more efficient codecs such as AVC.

And yes there is a 24/48 Dolby TrueHD soundtrack on HD DVD. It is the same one that is on Blu-ray; NIN Beside You In Time. Both versions contain a 24/48 Dolby TrueHD soundtrack.

amirm

03-16-07, 02:25 PM

This is a topic which I have briefly covered before but it seems that it is not broadly known so I am going to make a posting on it. I hope the mods forgive me for deviating from Q/A format for this one post.

I am sure many of you have noticed that I have focused my participation on AVS to this one Insider thread. The reason goes back a few weeks to the last firestorm in some other thread(s). Tensions ran high, threads were closed and posts were deleted. I don’t actually recall the specifics, but did get a PM from one of the mods as a result of it. In there was a request to consider only participating in the Insider thread.

At first, my reaction was to quickly say “NO” as there are clearly discussions which are worthwhile which occur outside of this thread. But it took all of 30 seconds to realize that the suggestion was a good one. So from that moment on, I followed it and stayed here. Occasionally I might comment in “safe” threads such as support questions in HD DVD sections, but that is it.

Reflecting back, it has been mostly a positive change. I have saved a ton of time in not having to answer every argument, which was handy as we launched some other products in my group which also needed my attention. It is also much less stressful to answer questions, than to argue :). My post count is stuck in the mud but it is already high enough to be embracing :D.

Yes, there is a down side to only living here. Often someone sends me a link to something, I read it and realize that I could add something to the conversation but just can’t. The other drawback is that the format for this thread by definition, forces me to follow the topics/questions posed by others. As a result, you get a disjointed view of technology, politics, or whatever from me, not a cohesive view. In a way, you control what I say and when I say it and that may make it hard for people to get a complete picture of things. To deal with this, I might write up more detailed explanations as you saw in my description of AVC vs VC-1. But even those will be triggered by questions as opposed to topics I might pick.

Overall, I probably need to find another outlet to have less sterile discussion with folks but hopefully in the same respectful manner that exists in this thread. People have suggested I start a blog, which I finally plan to do (although the blog will be far wider in topics than HD formats). I was also asked to participate in another forum which I have done although I spend far more time here than there, even though I roam free in that forum. I won’t mention the name of that forum but there is some learning from the way they have divided their forum to avoid some of the pitfalls of this one.

Some people think I am a coward for not going outside for a fist fight on some topics :). Hopefully the above convinces you that this is not the case. I have been participating in public Internet forums going back some 25 years (yes, there was an Internet then :)). It has always been tough to participate as such, whether it was for hobby or business. There are so many knowledgeable people who can argue well for their point of view. So while I have settled in this thread due to circumstances, people should not assume that this is my style. It is not but it is what works best in the social structure of this forum.

As a related aside, I am also highly limiting my posts to other insiders here. I am not religious about this one but will bite my tongue and only post when I really feel compelled.

The mods should feel free to delete this post although if they do choose to do so, I hope they consider leaving it here for a couple of days for folks to get the message. I also hope all follow ups to this post are in another thread. I will commit to reading your comments there but of course, won’t be able to respond.

Respectfully,

Dr_Kn0w

03-16-07, 02:27 PM

Hey Amir,

I apologize if this question has already be asked, but are you guys expecting to bring the HD DVD roadshow to Toronto, Canada anytime soon??

amirm

03-16-07, 02:59 PM

Hey Amir,

I apologize if this question has already be asked, but are you guys expecting to bring the HD DVD roadshow to Toronto, Canada anytime soon??
We don't really have a "roadshow" per se. We just schedule these events as my schedule permits it, and as there is interest.

The usual process is for someone to create a new thread in the HD DVD section for it asking who all wants to come. And have someone volunteer to host us. Then we can work with that person on the logistics if there is sufficient interest.

On Toronto, there was earlier interest expressed and I mentioned that I would be more than happy to do it. As a funny aside though, we just visited Vancouver. On the way up, the Canadian border crossing agent gave me a really hard time on why I was coming to visit you all. But poor Kevin got a much worse treatment. The detained him for an hour, after he explained that "he was coming to meet AVS Forum people to talk about HD DVD!" They could not believe we would have any legitimate business to come and see you all! And even with me, after I got done telling the agent that I had done similar events in the US, he asked “but why are trying to do it in Canada?” As if there is some difference between us when it comes to watching TV and movies. Ah, what fun after September 11th….

So if you want us to come, you have to put in the good word with your immigration officers :).

H9K_

03-16-07, 03:44 PM

Snickering Hound

03-16-07, 04:46 PM

Amir:

Can you give any information about the Venturer HD-DVD player that is currently at the Hannover CeBIT show?

http://www.hddvdprg.com/eng/event/31cebit.html

This is using the Microsoft/Broadcom SOC solution isn't it?

Does it support 1080i/1080p?

Dolby TrueHD?

Any idea of pricing and availability?

P.S. What does that card on it say?

Steeb

03-16-07, 05:37 PM

To BD Insiders:

Do any of you know how the Panasonic BD players will handle DTS-HD MA tracks once we get the update that enables DTS-HD? Will we still only get the 1.5mbps core for the MA tracks, or will we get a higher bitrate (but still lossy) version?

captaincelluloid

03-16-07, 07:23 PM

Meatpopsicle

03-16-07, 07:30 PM

Amir,

Which do you personally feel will likely happen first, given your own personal analysis?

- The war is dragged on long enough that all studios go neutral. (If so, how long do you feel the war would have to continue for it to happen?)
- One format wins, the other is abandoned.
- Something else you can maybe expound on?

amirm

03-16-07, 08:23 PM

Amir,

Which do you personally feel will likely happen first, given your own personal analysis?
This is the kind of question which can generate hundreds of posts and debates :). I will take a shot at it since you asked but I am sure the mods will keep a sharp eye on folks going crazy on it.

- The war is dragged on long enough that all studios go neutral. (If so, how long do you feel the war would have to continue for it to happen?)
This is the most likely scenario of the two you list.

I believe at some point "HD DVD" and "BD" will simply become "features" of DVD players. People won't even think about them in the context of a format war or a conscious decision to enter one. They will be buying some sub $99 DVD player, which happens to play HD DVD. Enough of them get sold and the format will be there for good. Consumer will then be free to buy DVDs or HD DVDs and not lose anything one way or the other. I assume BD folks have the same plan (although probably reluctantly :)).

Same thing happened with DVD-A/SACD to some extent although the failing there was that interest in that sort of fidelity improvement was nearly non-existent and it came at a time of great change in music business with interest shifting from quality to "access" and convenience. Without that, they would be standard today and we would be living with them for our music enjoyment.

It is possible that both BD and HD DVD will become standard features of DVD players. The hurdle for such universal players is a bit higher (due to higher optical costs which cannot be reduces easily to such low cost thresholds) but it is not too far away from above reality.

Once we hit this inflection point, the concept of format war kind of loses steam and we will simply be throttled by the demand for HD content than anything else. That future is not too far down the road btw. State of electronic integration is so much more advanced now than any other time in history. We are also lucky that the disc size is the same, making these combination products seem like a nature thing to happen as far as general consumers are concerned.

IPR (patent fee) concerns are somewhat a barrier but in a volume business, new solutions would have be devised to avoid paying double and triple for the same patent when the application is similar in each instant (i.e. playing a VC-1 or MPEG-2 movie). And experiences are exclusive. (i.e. you play either DVD or HD DVD/BD, so why pay for both patents at the same time?)

Even now, the whole notion of “war” is overblown in my opinion. We have a very effective rental system which shields people from its effect which did not exist in previous “wars.” And we have a drive toward cheap hardware which likewise lessons the level of “harm” from picking the “wrong” format. The war is a boon to press and to folks who think one side should be shut down but other than that, it is not nearly as significant. Certainly from our point of view, we don’t worry a bit about BD format hanging around forever. But we digress :).

- One format wins, the other is abandoned.
Since no one is blinking on either side, this does not seem likely right now. Something unpredictable could happen of course but if we deal with the facts as we know it, this scenario cannot be supported as having high likelihood.

- Something else you can maybe expound on?
A few other alternatives come to mind:

* Both formats grow to certain percentage of DVD sales and then get stuck there (say growing from current 0.5% to 20 or 25%). Title pricing will be most likely the reason for this as hardware cost will not be a factor per my hypothesis above. If one assumes price pressure will continue on current DVD titles, then pricing HD media where current DVDs are will be defensible. But higher premiums would keep the market from growing at some point. Then again, CDs did push up the ASP (average selling price) over LPs so maybe I am wrong :). But I think consumers saw more value in that transition than here.

* Both grow so slowly as to compete with digital downloads as far as revenues/volume is concerned and given the cache of the former, lose steam. I don't think this is a likely outcome (in the next five years anyway) but it remains a distinct concern. HD video and interactivity is nice. How nice to average person, remains to be seen. We can guard against this outcome by making sure it is not an “either or” choice. Things like managed copy, digital downloads to enhance titles, etc., allow us to bridge the gap between the two means of delivery. But if folks stay too married to strict physical goods and not innovate, times may pass them by.

Now you know why are blazing the trail on interactivity for HD DVD :). We feel that a “modern” optical format will have quite a strong staying power. A stale one that forces the old DVD business on you, less so.

So how did I do? :)

paidgeek

03-16-07, 09:37 PM

Paidgeek:

How is the spiderman 2 BD comming along and what was the result of the poll about added content (that most ppl wanted). Did you forward that info and what was the result of that?

Also regards to downloading subtitles: Will it be possible for me to download subtitles for a japan import eventhough i live in europe?
And how about releasing some downloadable subtitles that are in different position, as in not black barst but in the "image".It is quite annoying when subtitles get cut in 2 :)

It is still in the works. I think there is a better than even chance we will be able to include both DD THD and LPCM on this title. I cannot say what else might be included.

For downloaded subs, I suspect you will be able to access them from other locations, but I can't say for certain until we are farther along with providing them. Text based subs such as we will use for downloading will allow re-positioning. We are also going to test another title with this feature using regular raster based subs (the typical method), based on requests from the forum.

Steeb

03-16-07, 09:41 PM

It is still in the works. I think there is a better than even chance we will be able to include both DD THD and LPCM on this title. I cannot say what else might be included.

What would be the advantage of including a DTHD track if there's already an uncompressed PCM track? Will either track be 24/48 or will they both be 16/48?

darinp2

03-16-07, 09:44 PM

For yield, let’s use 70% for BD-25. I think this is pretty defensible if one uses the industry standard definition of true yield, as opposed to measuring when the machine starts to produce good discs (i.e. including the warm up period). Let’s further agree that the second layer is harder to do and go with a 50% yield for that. To get the composite yield, we multiple the two yield factors and we get 35%. We now have to put on a cover and protective coating, so let’s knock down 20% for this, and we get 28% overall yield.

DVD cycle time is around 2.5 seconds for state-of-the-art equipment. Last number I saw for BD was in 4.6 second range or nearly double that (OK, so I round up, go ahead and shoot me ).

Now let’s do part of the math. DVD cost is roughly 50 cents per disc. We would have to double this due to cycle time (since the same factory produces half as many BD discs as compared to DVD), and then multiply it by 100/28 (for the 28% yield) to arrive at a total cost of $3.57 per disc.I would be interested in hearing the costs for HD30/DVD9 combo discs. And the cycle times for those. How many can be produced per day per machine and operator compared to the number of DVD9s that can be produced per day? If somebody on the HD DVD side is willing to provide those, that would be great. If not, maybe an insider on the Blu-ray side could run the numbers for these HD DVD combos like Amir did above for Blu-ray discs.

--Darin

paidgeek

03-16-07, 09:47 PM

While I understand your point about whether you would hear a difference I don't understand your point about languages. Most Sony releases I've seen so far have a French or Spanish DD soundtrack on them but not much else (unless it is a foreign track). None of these are in PCM or a lossless format. So having the primary soundtrack in DTHD OR PCM (not both as that is a bit of a waste of space) at 24/48 or whatever the full resolution is along with up to 3 DD soundtracks shouldn't even be an issue with the bandwidth that BD offers and 50GB discs. It certainly shouldn't cut into your video bandwidth much, especially if you are starting to use more efficient codecs such as AVC.

And yes there is a 24/48 Dolby TrueHD soundtrack on HD DVD. It is the same one that is on Blu-ray; NIN Beside You In Time. Both versions contain a 24/48 Dolby TrueHD soundtrack.

Kris, in planning at our releases, we are considering all markets. How we support audio in Europe is one of the key factors we will based encoding decisions on. With multiple languages in 20 bit DD THD we will easily use more than 20% of a BD-50 on some titles.

My point on HD-DVD is was not whether there are any titles with DD THD, but rather that it is very uncommon.

xboxboi

03-16-07, 09:47 PM

I would be interested in hearing the costs for HD DVD30/DVD9 combo discs. And the cycle times for those. How many can be produced per day per machine and operator compared to the number of DVD9s that can be produced per day? If somebody on the HD DVD side is willing to provide those, that would be great. If not, maybe an insider on the Blu-ray side could run the numbers for these HD DVD combos like Amir did above for Blu-ray discs.

--Darin

amir, the costs of BD disk production/replication which is significantly higher than HD DVD, that you have stated, were those costs actual or after BDA (Sony) subsidy?

paidgeek

03-16-07, 09:48 PM

What would be the advantage of including a DTHD track if there's already an uncompressed PCM track? Will either track be 24/48 or will they both be 16/48?

The advantage is that we would like to have 20bit resolution, but it is costly to have it with LPCM. DD THD will allow it with a reasonable space/bandwidth burden.

paidgeek

03-16-07, 09:51 PM

Paidgeek,

I am somewhat perplexed as to why Korean subtitles are included on Sony BD discs for special features. The last example I saw was on Casino Royale, but I also remember seeing this on Blackhawk Down and Tears of the Sun. This is often the only subtitle other than English. What is so special about Korea that they get this as opposed to more common Spanish or French? Please note that this is not about subtitles for the main feature, but special features only.

When we have Korean subs on a title, it is for the purpose of making that same disc suitable for sale in Korea. I presume that the MD in that territory has made a case that added value subs in the local language are particularly important there.

amirm

03-16-07, 09:53 PM

amir, the costs of BD disk production/replication which is significantly higher than HD DVD, that you have stated, were those costs actual or after BDA (Sony) subsidy?
They would be pre-subsidy costs.

Also note that they are not true costs in that equipment cost (i.e. lease fees for a $1.5M line) and labor are not included. The latter could be very significant at this stage of the game given the difficulty of the process (i.e. how much time/energy you need to tune the machine to produce at the yields mentioned). Also, to the extent the machine needs a couple of days of warm up time, that is lost productivity which would also have to be incorporated into the cost figure...

trbarry

03-16-07, 09:58 PM

* Both formats grow to certain percentage of DVD sales and then get stuck there (say growing from current 0.5% to 20 or 25%). Title pricing will be most likely the reason for this as hardware cost will not be a factor per my hypothesis above. If one assumes price pressure will continue on current DVD titles, then pricing HD media where current DVDs are will be defensible. But higher premiums would keep the market from growing at some point. Then again, CDs did push up the ASP (average selling price) over LPs so maybe I am wrong :). But I think consumers saw more value in that transition than here.

Is this a subtle and possibly unintentional warning to the studios they may be overpricing some discs in the new format(s)?

- Tom

paidgeek

03-16-07, 09:58 PM

Paidgeek,

can you please comment if the upcoming Korean BD of Casino Royale will feature the same uncut version as their DVD version?

I'm sure you know all about this, but just for reference to other users, the US PG-13 version is slightly different from the full uncut version, that for now, seems to be available only in Korea.

What about the transfers, are they comparable?

And regarding the Kung Fu Hustle discs, since they are already out, I'd really appreciate if you could comment on possible transfer quality differences (as the Korean and Japanese versions feature the full uncut version, while the US is edited down).

Thanks in advance ;)

There are slight censorship cuts for the worldwide version of CR in UK and Germany. Except for the US which has 3 short edits for censorship, all other regions are getting the full un-cut version. The transfer quality will be the same since they were created at the same time.

Like CR, KFH should also have the same picture quality, regardless of version.

amirm

03-16-07, 10:02 PM

Is this a subtle and possibly unintentional warning to the studios they may be overpricing some discs in the new format(s)?

- Tom
With some exceptions, no. The question is what happens 3 years from now. If they are priced the same way, then yes, I believe we will not penetrate the DVD market in a significant way. DVDs will be so much cheaper that consumers will simply stay there.

paidgeek

03-16-07, 10:02 PM

I'm from Norway and my wife's from Thailand, so I appreciate the fact that many of Sony's BD US titles also carry Thai subtitles (which is nice for my wife since she only speaks Thai and Norwegian. No English). I import those Sony US titles with Thai subtitles that work on my Region B Panny player for that reason only. Or else I normally buy the Norwegian/European version with Norwegian subtitles.

Paidgeek, what decides which titles (US) comes with the different languages? Not all Sony US titles carry Asian/Thai subtitles unfortuneately. Also, the newest Sony region A titles doesn't work on my region B player. But I'd actually import a Region A BD player from the US if I could be sure that more movies would come with Thai subtitles. Also, do you know if the other BD studios like Fox, Warner, Paramount, Disney.. will start to support Thai subtitles for their releases?

In a multi cultural home I try to keep everyone happy :)

These decisions are based on whether or not we have the rights to distribute the title in question into the market where the subtitles are required. For the moment, we are using the U.S. version to service these markets.

darinp2

03-16-07, 10:04 PM

paidgeek,

Can you please comment on this from http://www.hdtvuk.tv/:
Blu-ray Disc Association launch 'BD Light' license for independent content producers

In recognition of the many smaller independent labels producing content, who don't have the budget or sales volumes of the major Hollywood studios, the Blu-ray Disc Association has introduced the 'BD Light' license agreement, which reduces the fee from $3000 to $500.Do you know if the fees referred to here include AACS fees? Also, is that $3000 per release, per company, something else?

Thanks,
Darin

paidgeek

03-16-07, 10:08 PM

paidgeek,

Can you please comment on this from http://www.hdtvuk.tv/:
Do you know if the fees referred to here include AACS fees? Also, is that $3000 per release, per company, something else?

Thanks,
Darin

This an annual fee per company unrelated to AACS.

Dan Hitchman

03-17-07, 12:39 AM

Paidgeek,

Not to sound like a broken record, but I very much like what Fox is supposedly doing with most (if not all) of their titles: 24/48 lossless audio for the PRIMARY language track of the title (English if it's in English, Spanish if it's in Spanish, etc.) and a couple other secondary languages depending on the region (for Region A usually French and Spanish (if the title is an English language film) at space saving DVD lossy compression levels.

I'm all about getting THE BEST POSSIBLE audio for the feature. Heck, even quality 24 bit re-mastering of 16 and 20 bit original masters can sound stunning if done correctly on the right equipment, and with care. This is done all the time in the music world. Besides, the backbone of most movies is the music anyway. That benefits a lot from high resolution audio recording and mastering.

A small label like R&B Films can do a 24/96 lossless encode from their re-mastered original 24/96 multi-track, so why can't a multi-billion dollar company like Sony deliver the same?

Disney gets kudos for their 24/48 LPCM tracks (especially Chicago and The Prestige!), although if space is an issue using BD-25 for some titles they could still do 24/48 resolution using DTS MA or Dolby TrueHD without dropping to 16/48 LPCM.

I also agree with others here that putting a PCM and lossless track on the disc is a waste of space. If you want the best audio and you need space... go lossless.

HD discs should deliver the goods in both audio and video. We're paying a lot, so isn't it reasonable that we ask for a lot in return?

Dan

amirm

03-17-07, 12:41 AM

Amir, welcome back to the forum!
Thanks :).

Any answer to this question?
Is the upcoming firmware update for the 360 HD-DVD player going to fix the inability to play the HD-DVDs "Discovery Atlas: Australia Revealed" and "Discovery Atlas: Italy Revealed"?

Ah, so you were the one who asked :). I chased the answer but then couldn't remember who had asked for it!

But yes, the answer is that it is fixed in the upcoming update.

Steeb

03-17-07, 01:03 AM

The advantage is that we would like to have 20bit resolution, but it is costly to have it with LPCM. DD THD will allow it with a reasonable space/bandwidth burden.
So you're saying we could see BD releases with a 20/48 DTHD track and a 16/48 PCM track? As long as it doesn't adversely affect the PQ, I think that's really cool. Are there other titles, besides Spider-Man 2, that are slated to have both a lossless and an uncompressed track?

Thanks for the info, BTW. Your input is greatly appreciated.

benwaggoner

03-17-07, 01:09 AM

Currently, as you've probably seen, there is mass negativity flying around these forums about THD. From my understanding, THD will essentially limit all movie file size from warner to 25GB on both formats because of the current impossibility of a dual layer BD flip disc (after August). I am obviously assuming that Warner will use the same encode on both sides. How do you feel about this? Is 25GB ample room to put out quality releases with lossless audio and bonus features in your opinion?

Warner did a bunch of titles as HD DVD 30 and BD 25, so we know it can be done.

For longer movies, the HD DVD could use the extra space for DD+ or TrueHD and PIP, neither isn't a good fit for many BD players anyway.

Even if the video encode is the same, the audio and interactivity features can use the extra space to provide the higher level of both mandatory for HD DVD players.

paidgeek

03-17-07, 01:34 AM

Head Shot

03-17-07, 04:18 AM

Amir,

For the upcoming evolution of HD disks to go through the process of approval, which of the two ( TotalHD and Triple Layer 51) will have a better chance ?

RealEstateWagon

03-17-07, 07:08 AM

Amir/Ben

I have yet to experience HD video from the Xbox Video Marketplace where I live, although I've heard nice things about it. Still, I wonder if Marketplace must use well-known codecs only or if you are able to experiment with newer iterations of WMV that go beyond VC-1?

amirm

03-17-07, 11:26 AM

Amir,

For the upcoming evolution of HD disks to go through the process of approval, which of the two ( TotalHD and Triple Layer 51) will have a better chance ?
I don't think TotalHD would be going through the DVD Forum process. There is no way DVD Forum would be in a position to approve the BD side in it. Historically, the forum has taken a dim view of such things. For example, there used to be a twin disc format with CD on one side, and DVD on the other side (promoted by the record companies). It was too thick and violated DVD spec so there were a lot of fireworks in DVD Forum about it. I don't expect such a contention here but the resistance will definitely be there. I will double check with our forum experts and report back if I hear anything different.

TL-51 can of course move through the forum. How easy it would be to do that, depends on the spec. I have not seen the TL-51 specifications so I have no real data to give you. But the forum has approved many variations of HD DVD format already so there is pretty good structure for evaluating and approving it.

H9K_

03-17-07, 11:53 AM

I would be interested in your further explanation of why you very much like something that you cannot decode. Please PM me and we can discuss...

Because we can do that in near future and plan to re-watch films many times as the years go by.
Seems some one needs to start looking farer ahead than the tip of their nose.
Why not put the best track you got on it at now?

amirm

03-17-07, 12:13 PM

The BD-25 yield INCLUDES the cover and protective coating yield reductions. You can't put it through as a layer yield.
Not quite Gary :). By your logic, the second layer would have the same yields as the first one which we know, and you seem to agree, it does not. Reason is that there is a fixed tolerance for all the layers of the cake in a BD disc. When you have a single layer disc, you get to have more freedom in how flat and perfect the layers need to be. However, when you add layers, the job become progressively more difficult because the lower layers rob you of your available tolerances. I don’t recall the exact number but I believe the flatness is in the order of 8 microns. So let’s use this to walk through an example:

Let’s say the first layer is flat within 4 microns and the cover layer is within 2 microns. Add these two together and you have 6 microns of inaccuracy which is still within 8 micron total allowable and a single layer disc meets the spec requirements. But now, you only have 2 microns left. The second layer now needs to be flat within these 2 microns, not 4 as was the case with the first layer. So your yields drop drastically as if you could make layers that flat, you would already be doing it for the first layer :). To compensate, you may now need to have a 1 micron tolerance for the cover layer which drops the yields for that layer. If you did this, then you have 4 microns for the first layer, 3 microns for the second, and 1 micron for the cover layer. As you see, the last two steps are harder to manufacture now and you have to deduce some yield loss because of it. This is why you can’t just use the same cover layer yields as you did for BD-25.

The above is the reason there are no combo BD discs. On paper, one can dream 0 micron, perfectly flat layers. But in reality, sticking a DVD under BD layers with its high tolerances plays havoc with flatness you need to maintain for the upper BD layers. Put another way, the DVD layer underneath the BD layers uses up all of your tolerance allowance, making the discs possible on paper but nearly impossible to manufacture in practice. Or you could produce them with such low yields as the cost to be way outside of the value it brings.

Second manifestation of above is why there used to be a lot of talk about more than 2 layers for BD discs, but in reality, those did not materialize for ROM movie format. The yields drop so much for layers above 2 that in practice you can’t make them without changing the core spec and relaxing some of the tolerances (and in process, make the drive more difficult to make). Recordable discs enjoy other freedom which comes from not having to be produced in a ROM replication process and of courses, the discs can and do cost a lot more than movie discs.

Third manifestation comes from the challenge of using spin coating instead of expensive film. Spin coating is a process where you drop some resin on the inside ring of a BD disc, and let centrifugal force spread it across the surface. Sounds neat on paper and looks exciting to look at it work on a machine. Problem is, the same gravity force means that some of the resin pools at the outside edge of the disc (called “damming effect”), and thins out on the inner circle, making the thickness non uniform, taking away the precious tolerances. Hence the reason expensive but ultra smooth plastic film appears to still be in use for BD-50 discs. The film unfortunately also has a set of issues with contaminations under it and hence the deductions for it when computing the total yeilds.

As for using a rule that double the cycle time means the replicator charges twice the price, I'd really love to see some evidence that is true.
We are not talking about what people “charge.” We are talking about all else being equal, what is the true cost of a BD disc to manufacture (which is what the original question was). If I have two DVD plants, both of which cost identical amounts to build, the one that produces twice as many discs per day, can clearly make me twice as much money for the same investment, given a competitive marketplace. If BD is to compete with DVD, and replace it in three years as some are claiming, then they have to live by these rules. A large studio distributes half a billion DVDs a year. With those kinds of volumes, one cannot look the other way on mass volume production considerations such as this, nor can a replicator try to stay in business having to buy twice as many lines yet sell the discs for the same price as before.

Besides, if they were to do it they would double on their cost, not on the price they charge which includes profit.
Speaking of "profits", if you want to maintain the same gross margin percentage for your business, you would have to mark up the incremental costs by that amount. This would make the equation worse for BD, not better. Put another way, if I sell a disc for 50 cents and it costs me 25 cents to make, then I have 50% gross margin. If the cost goes up to $2 and I sell it for the same "profit" (25 cents) at $2.25, my gross margin just shrank down to 10%! If I am a public company, my stock crashes on that day as there are a lot of companies with much better profit models, given the same cost structure. But we digress as economic discussions can become argumentative quickly....

What is the TRUE yield for DVD?
Upwards of 96%+. And these numbers are verified by independent replicators who do not have an IP stake in DVD format. BD numbers that you see thrown around in press releases not only lack verification by third-parties, but are often from “pilot” lines which are nothing but test/R&D labs. Even if one assumes their yield numbers are right and can somehow be verified, when you take such processes and install them in volume replication plants, you wind up with very different numbers (e.g. labor is free in a lab so people can spend far more time tuning a machine than in a real factory where you have to pay for such expert skills). This is why the industry puts little value on announcements such as one from Panasonic circa 2005, claiming 80% yields in their Torrance “pilot line” for BD-25.

AlexBC

03-17-07, 01:12 PM

Paidgeek,

thank you for the explanations, your care and attention to us here at AVS has made me even more eager to SPHE content.

Regarding CR and KFH, I still have a little doubt, you mention they come from the same transfer, that's fair enough. But is the bitrate of the encoding similar as well?

I ask this because I've been importing SPHE DVDs from various countries (mostly US, Jp and Korea) for a number of years as well as purchasing our local Brazilian version (all of them NTSC versions) and even though one can clearly notice they come from the same transfer, the video bitrate budget sometimes varies a lot from version to version (or region to region). Kinda like some of them would be superbit versions with much higher butyrates.

Now I guess the question is, will this happen to the SPHE BD versions as well? Or we can expect the same or very similar encodings?

It's really frustrating going on a quest to find the very best version of our beloved movies even though it's being distributed by the same company worldwide.

I would be interested in your further explanation of why you very much like something that you cannot decode. Please PM me and we can discuss...

I second Dan's comments and I can say my reasoning for doing it is just that we can be future safe. The capable hardware will come along (very shortly I guess) and our collection will gain a whole new perspective once it's available to us. I don't think it makes much sense to limit the software now just because the hardware hasn't matched it yet, since it's perfectly possible to keep the software at this higher level and still be backwards compatible (the 48/24 tracks will just be downsampled).

MidnightWatcher

03-17-07, 01:40 PM

To any insider:

I was at a major DVD rental chain up here in Canada earlier this week and asked them if they would be carrying HD DVD any time soon. Their answer was that nothing was confirmed at this time, but he did know that Blu-ray was lobbying the company's head office to carry BD. The head office was reluctant, however, because BD wanted to charge them $100 per disc. Assuming this is accurate, why the huge price variance between rental and retail discs? Is Blu-ray trying to recoup losses somehow, or have they opted to make discs intended for the rental market more durable somehow for this purpose, hence the higher cost?

paidgeek

03-17-07, 02:52 PM

Paidgeek,

thank you for the explanations, your care and attention to us here at AVS has made me even more eager to SPHE content.

Regarding CR and KFH, I still have a little doubt, you mention they come from the same transfer, that's fair enough. But is the bitrate of the encoding similar as well?

I ask this because I've been importing SPHE DVDs from various countries (mostly US, Jp and Korea) for a number of years as well as purchasing our local Brazilian version (all of them NTSC versions) and even though one can clearly notice they come from the same transfer, the video bitrate budget sometimes varies a lot from version to version (or region to region). Kinda like some of them would be superbit versions with much higher butyrates.

Now I guess the question is, will this happen to the SPHE BD versions as well? Or we can expect the same or very similar encodings?

It's really frustrating going on a quest to find the very best version of our beloved movies even though it's being distributed by the same company worldwide.

I second Dan's comments and I can say my reasoning for doing it is just that we can be future safe. The capable hardware will come along (very shortly I guess) and our collection will gain a whole new perspective once it's available to us. I don't think it makes much sense to limit the software now just because the hardware hasn't matched it yet, since it's perfectly possible to keep the software at this higher level and still be backwards compatible (the 48/24 tracks will just be downsampled).

As a rule, we are going to use the same encoded video file for all versions worldwide unless we cannot do so because of censorship. When censorship is an issue, we will keep the same bit rate specs as the NA version. The situation with DVD was different in that disc capacity required for some versions might force a different bitrate, particularly for PAL.

For audio, I am clear on the benefits of using one of the lossless codecs and the attraction this has for some consumers. What I did not understand was the preference for DTS lossless versus Dolby because, being lossless, the only other consideration should be the availability of decoders... Dolby has some out there with more coming and DTS, at present, does not.

Kris Deering

03-17-07, 03:24 PM

Kris, in planning at our releases, we are considering all markets. How we support audio in Europe is one of the key factors we will based encoding decisions on. With multiple languages in 20 bit DD THD we will easily use more than 20% of a BD-50 on some titles.

My point on HD-DVD is was not whether there are any titles with DD THD, but rather that it is very uncommon.

I understand that but it isn't like Sony is releasing their present titles with uncompressed audio for every language now. What I am saying is there is no reason that I can see for Sony not to include a full resolution PCM OR DDTHD soundtrack with every release and still include all the languages you want at 640DD or 1.5DTS. Adding both seems like a waste of space. With BD50 and BD's bandwidth there doesn't seem to be a reason you couldn't and still deliver top notch video.

Azumi

03-17-07, 03:58 PM

As a rule, we are going to use the same encoded video file for all versions worldwide unless we cannot do so because of censorship. When censorship is an issue, we will keep the same bit rate specs as the NA version.

To the forum mods,

I hope you'll allow this little follow-up on censorship, which could be helpful for people interested to buy imported discs from Europe:

The UK and Germany are the two european countries with consistent censorship requirements. In Great Britain, a stringent censorship has been in place for quite a long time, while in Germany a new set of regulations has been put in place a few years ago. It's important to remember that some of the cuts are made on a voluntary basis by the studios themselves, in order to obtain more "favorable" ratings.

Therefore, as a rule, if you're interested to buy discs like "Kung Fu Hustle" and are unsure if the UK/German versions are untouched, please remember that the French discs are always presented in their uncut/uncensored versions.

If you wish to import from the UK/Germany, you'll have to make the appropriate research (BBFC, local DVD/hi-def websites) to make sure that the film hasn't been altered.

paidgeek

03-17-07, 05:40 PM

I understand that but it isn't like Sony is releasing their present titles with uncompressed audio for every language now. What I am saying is there is no reason that I can see for Sony not to include a full resolution PCM OR DDTHD soundtrack with every release and still include all the languages you want at 640DD or 1.5DTS. Adding both seems like a waste of space. With BD50 and BD's bandwidth there doesn't seem to be a reason you couldn't and still deliver top notch video.

If we dropped LPCM today in favor of a lossless codec, I would expect the customers who are currently enjoying those streams to be upset. It would be acceptable to use 20 bit LPCM, but the nature of the way the data is packed requires that it occupy the same space as 24 bit LPCM. Those 8 bits translate into a significant amount of disc space and bandwidth, even for BD 50.

abr27440

03-17-07, 06:02 PM

If we dropped LPCM today in favor of a lossless codec, I would expect the customers who are currently enjoying those streams to be upset. It would be acceptable to use 20 bit LPCM, but the nature of the way the data is packed requires that it occupy the same space as 24 bit LPCM. Those 8 bits translate into a significant amount of disc space and bandwidth, even for BD 50.

Paid, could you explain why 20bit LPCM would occupy the same amount of space as 24bit?

darinp2

03-17-07, 06:27 PM

TL-51 can of course move through the forum. How easy it would be to do that, depends on the spec. I have not seen the TL-51 specifications so I have no real data to give you. But the forum has approved many variations of HD DVD format already so there is pretty good structure for evaluating and approving it.I would love to see HD DVD require TL-51 with 1.5x spin rate support for all future players (Gen1s being allowed an exception if required). There was a press release recently about a Chinese format where the only major difference was said to be the codecs used, with the same discs used for it as HD DVD. Looks to me like the same drives could be used for both formats if things stay like that. Do you expect the requirements for players for both formats to change so that they have to support TL-51s, the requirements for only HD DVD players to change so they have to support TL-51s (thus creating another difference between the 2 formats), or for neither format to require players to support TL-51s?

--Darin

AlbertA

03-17-07, 06:43 PM

Paid, could you explain why 20bit LPCM would occupy the same amount of space as 24bit?

Because it probably needs to be packed in 3 bytes and probably cannot be bitpacked.

paidgeek

03-17-07, 09:29 PM

Paid, could you explain why 20bit LPCM would occupy the same amount of space as 24bit?

I have not looked into this deeply. Our engineering staff has though and they tell me that there is no way around this as it is part of the specifications.

paidgeek

03-17-07, 09:33 PM

As I understand it the Playstation 3 should be adding DTS HD MA decoding in this months firmware, and the Panasonic(?) 2nd gen BD player will include DTS HD MA decoding out of the box. Other devices could, conceivably, add DTS HD MA decoding via firmware updates as well. Alarmingly though, Sony's 2nd-gen BD players don't include DTS HD MA or Dolby TrueHD. If you have any contact with the hardware side of Sony, it would be nice to know what their thinking is regarding next-gen audio CODECs.

In any event, I'd like to think both Dolby TrueHD and DTS HD Master Audio decoding will sneak into A/V Receivers as HDMI 1.3 is adopted (allowing even first-gen BD players (assuming they all support HDMI 1.3) to send the raw bitstream out).

My information is different than yours, but I hope yours is right. I am not aware of any updates coming for PS3 or the Panasonic player that can support DTS lossless. You should also know that the first gen players do not support HDMI 1.3. This is due to the fact that the required chips were not available at the time the players were developed.

darkedgex

03-17-07, 11:59 PM

My information is different than yours, but I hope yours is right. I am not aware of any updates coming for PS3 or the Panasonic player that can support DTS lossless. You should also know that the first gen players do not support HDMI 1.3. This is due to the fact that the required chips were not available at the time the players were developed.The Panasonic support (http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/03/17/panasnoic-revises-blu-ray-player-dmp-bd10a/) was just announced in the last day or so at CeBIT—
This week at CeBIT Panasonic introduced the DMP-BD10A, which is a revision to the DMP-BD10. Among other things the A revision brings with it advanced CODEC support including Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD.Of course they don't say DTS HD MA, but I'd be really annoyed if they only included support for DTS HD. As for the PS3, I'll have to go spelunking for a source for that later. =)

Anyways, was not aware that first-gen players lacked HDMI 1.3 capabilities.

Reginald Trent

03-18-07, 01:06 AM

Amir, can you name HD DVD exclusive studios that provide concert DVDs? Like Image for example, are they HD DVD exclusive?

Amir, I asked this earlier do you have the answer?

amirm

03-18-07, 03:03 AM

Amir, I asked this earlier do you have the answer?
I am sorry but I don't have an answer. You might want to ask in the HD DVD software section. I am sure someone else does :).

trbarry

03-18-07, 04:36 AM

.
.
.
Let me start by using words to explain something and then we go to pictures. In compression circles, as Ron did in his response, we use the term “Quantization” or “Qp” as a measure of how much we compress a block of pixels. The encoder dynamically changes Qp as it examines the complexity of the source against the available bit budget. Note that there is simple, “linear” relationship between Qp and visual artifacts (or we would not need humans to optimize these encodes). But Qp is a way to objectively talk about compression of video.

AVC uses a log scale of 1 to 51 for its Qp factor. VC-1, like MPEG-4 Part 2, uses a linear scale of 1 to 31. In both cases, 1 means essentially no compression, and maximum scale means just that, maximum compression. Ron suggested that we look at the case for Qp of 17 for AVC which is not a bad number for the kind of Qp often seen in HD DVD/BD encode so I will do the same. The same Qp roughly corresponds to “2” in VC-1. So we use that there for our codec.
.
.
.

The quote is from Amir, on the loop filtering test, but my question here is really for paidgeek, dr1394 or one of the AVC encoder insiders. How common is Qp 17 (or higher) in typical AVC encoded highdef movies? That is, given the large size of highdef discs does Qp 17 or higher typically occur often, or only in extremely hard to encode scenes?

- Tom

RobertR1

03-18-07, 04:44 AM

Amir,

Any comment on the Studio Canal delays?

Matt_Stevens

03-18-07, 09:39 AM

Krobar

03-18-07, 10:17 AM

Hi Amir,

(Maybe this got missed first time round)

According to a Major retailer here in the UK we are set to get a load of the Studio Canal titles on the 26th of this month (Cover art is rather nice), do you know if the audio speedup issue will be fixed for these?

Matt_Stevens

03-18-07, 10:34 AM

xploited cinema just reported that those titles are now indefinitely delayed.

RBFilms

03-18-07, 11:24 AM

Hi Darin,

AACS charges a $3,000 to $10,000 initial contract administration fee ... with the cost for each studio being determined by certain factors I can't recall offhand.

I paid $3,000 for the privilege of being tagged another $1,500 plus $200 for e-mail delivery = $1,700 for every check disc we make that does not work.

So, in the case or an early adopter release like CHRONOS, which took at least four (4) Check Discs to get right, AACS charged $1,700 x 4 = $6,800 for the "AACS Encyption Keys."

Add the $3,000 initial fee for the AACS Contract, and we got banged for almost $10,000 by AACS just to put out a Blu-Ray Disc. Nice.

We are forced to use AACS for BD but have the option with HD-DVD. You may notice that we do NOT use AACS on any of our HD-DVD releases nor do we plan to in the future.

Some people have asked me why the BD Version of CHRONOS cost more...this is one reason. If we could sell 10,000 to 20,000 units, these costs could be absorbed. However, we will be lucky if we sell maybe 25% of that number in year #1.

For some reason, the HD-DVD Version of CHRONOS is outselling the BD Version 2 to 1. This could be temporary as the HD-DVD has been out longer.

This is probably more information than you asked probably care to know, but I cannot help myself once I get rolling..:)

paidgeek,

Can you please comment on this from http://www.hdtvuk.tv/:
Do you know if the fees referred to here include AACS fees? Also, is that $3000 per release, per company, something else?

Thanks,
Darin

Azumi

03-18-07, 11:48 AM

amirm

03-18-07, 12:27 PM

I asked that two days ago and he has not responded.

Amir, if you are not aware of reasons or as to what happened with the audio, please just say so. That is a better answer than no answer at all.

Thanks.
I frankly have yet to get to the bottom of the complete answer. I have had probably dozens of communications on this and don't have definitive answers to give you across all the titles (this is complicated a bit given the larger set of post production houses involved).

If there is a partial answer, it is the fact that it seemed no one had tried to make 24p encodes in EU for optical discs. We thought it would be a walk in the park, using US masters but apparently not.

I can also tell you that I am putting extreme pressure on people to fix these things movig forward. But am having a hard time getting full confirmation of what is fixed and what is not. But I know the information is there now. As I learn more, I will reply.

BTW, I know this might be annoying but my preference is to only answer questions when I have something concrete to say. In the past, I just get beat up and get more arguments and hence not replying :).

Ja Phule

03-18-07, 12:30 PM

Richard,

Has R&B Films decided how they will use managed copies. Since AACS will not be used for HD DVD, how will this affect the use of managed copies?

Hi Darin,

AACS charges a $3,000 to $10,000 initial contract administration fee ... with the cost for each studio being determined by certain factors I can't recall offhand.

I paid $3,000 for the privilege of being tagged another $1,500 plus $200 for e-mail delivery = $1,700 for every check disc we make that does not work.

So, in the case or an early adopter release like CHRONOS, which took at least four (4) Check Discs to get right, AACS charged $1,700 x 4 = $6,800 for the "AACS Encyption Keys."

Add the $3,000 initial fee for the AACS Contract, and we got banged for almost $10,000 by AACS just to put out a Blu-Ray Disc. Nice.

We are forced to use AACS for BD but have the option with HD-DVD. You may notice that we do NOT use AACS on any of our HD-DVD releases nor do we plan to in the future.

Some people have asked me why the BD Version of CHRONOS cost more...this is one reason. If we could sell 10,000 to 20,000 units, these costs could be absorbed. However, we will be lucky if we sell maybe 25% of that number in year #1.

For some reason, the HD-DVD Version of CHRONOS is outselling the BD Version 2 to 1. This could be temporary as the HD-DVD has been out longer.

This is probably more information than you asked probably care to know, but I cannot help myself once I get rolling..:)

amirm

03-18-07, 12:36 PM

To all Insiders:

Studiocanal just issued an interesting press release stating that their 2nd HD-DVD wave will now be released on May 21, and that the reason of the delay was to integrate a new version of AACS which is due in April.

Amir, if you're planning to respond, it would be great if you could answer both on BD and HD-DVD on equal ground, because this is a global issue, and because both the BD and HD-DVD versions of Canal's 1st day-and-date release (Prête-moi ta main) have been affected as well and have yet to receive a new release date.

- What do we have to expect from the new set of AACS? Does it require a firmware update of all the existing BD and HD-DVD players in order to read the new discs?

.....

- Assuming that new software has to be installed in our player, will the existing discs continue to be played, even if some of our copies have keys that had been compromised?
I do have more information on this one but don't know if I can fully disclose it all. But I can address the one point above. If you are using PC software players (at least the ones I know about), then you would need a new player to play some content moving forward (and at some point, all new content). No other product is impacted so you are good to go with any BD/HD DVD player outside of PC software and don't need a firmware upgrade for them.

And yes, regardless you can continue to play the discs you own.

Matt_Stevens

03-18-07, 12:45 PM

Amir, thanks very much for the reponse on the Studio Canal situation. I can understand your hesitating to comment when you are still waiting for confirmation of facts, etc, so I am grateful that you could share with us what you know so far.

rwestley

03-18-07, 01:07 PM

Amirm, I know you can't or will not talk about the rumor of the Xbox 360 with HdMI output. I will say that you should use any pull you might have to get them to include a HD drive in the system when they come out with the upgrade with HDMI. Some rumors do not mention the inclusion of a HD drive and If there is no HD drive in the unit it could be the death of HDDVD. This is the time for Microsoft to show its true support for the format. Give us a small hint.

If Microsoft is woried about alienating the current owners it could offer a special upgrade price to current Xbox 360 owners. Or come out with a new lower priced HD add on drive with HDMI outputs. If one came out for under $100 with HDMI outputs I think it would really sell and would add to the Xbox and HD base. Watch the studios react if Microsoft would do this. I wonder how Andy would spin this?

f300v10

03-18-07, 01:22 PM

Amir, a few weeks ago you indicated that the HD-DVD Mobile Experience was heading to Atlanta in April. Do you have any dates and locations you can share on this yet? Thanks.

pteittinen

03-18-07, 02:03 PM

So, in the case or an early adopter release like CHRONOS, which took at least four (4) Check Discs to get right, AACS charged $1,700 x 4 = $6,800 for the "AACS Encyption Keys." Add the $3,000 initial fee for the AACS Contract, and we got banged for almost $10,000 by AACS just to put out a Blu-Ray Disc. Nice.
Richard, thank you very much for this info.

It also explains why there was such a palbable feeling of animosity towards the AACS guys at the DVD Forum Conference in Barcelona back in November. It was only during the discussion about AACS when voices got raised and folks got a bit hot under the collar. I think someone said out loud that nobody in the room liked AACS.

I shall be placing an order for Chronos right away, and hope to see more titles from R&B Films in the future. (edit: actually placed an order for both versions.)

MidnightWatcher

03-18-07, 03:26 PM

I do have more information on this one but don't know if I can fully disclose it all. But I can address the one point above. If you are using PC software players (at least the ones I know about), then you would need a new player to play some content moving forward (and at some point, all new content). No other product is impacted so you are good to go with any BD/HD DVD player outside of PC software and don't need a firmware upgrade for them.

And yes, regardless you can continue to play the discs you own.
Good news Amir, thank you. This is one of the strengths of AACS and I knew it would only be a matter of time, and perhaps this strength will give one or more of the BD exclusive studios incentive to start supporting HD DVD.

darinp2

03-18-07, 03:40 PM

This is probably more information than you asked probably care to know, but I cannot help myself once I get rolling..:)No, I really appreciate the amount of detail you provided. Thank you.

Now a followup question to Blu-ray insiders. I understand why the ROM-Mark (however it is spelled) may help combat professional piracy, but can somebody explain the requirement for AACS on Blu-ray? Is that to address professional piracy, other piracy, or something else I'm missing? Since (especially in the face of a format war) a good format can be modified if it makes the format better overall and is reasonable, is there any chance that the requirement for AACS will be reconsidered at any point here? From where I sit, that requirement for AACS on every release and the claims about replacing DVD within 3 years are contraditory, as you can't replace DVD without providing reasonable solutions for the small guys. If the Blu-ray group wants to achieve the latter I think they should reconsider the former. Any chance of that?

--Darin

trbarry

03-18-07, 06:36 PM

To all Insiders:

Studiocanal just issued an interesting press release stating that their 2nd HD-DVD wave will now be released on May 21, and that the reason of the delay was to integrate a new version of AACS which is due in April.

Amir, if you're planning to respond, it would be great if you could answer both on BD and HD-DVD on equal ground, because this is a global issue, and because both the BD and HD-DVD versions of Canal's 1st day-and-date release (Prête-moi ta main) have been affected as well and have yet to receive a new release date.

- What do we have to expect from the new set of AACS? Does it require a firmware update of all the existing BD and HD-DVD players in order to read the new discs?

- Does anybody know if this is the reason that led Fox to delay some of their BD titles?

- Assuming that new software has to be installed in our player, will the existing discs continue to be played, even if some of our copies have keys that had been compromised?

There has been speculation before that some releases of both formats were being held up pending AACS changes to improve the compromised copy protection. Can any insider confirm that April-May date for other studios also?

It would be nice to see more new releases.

- Tom

Azumi

03-18-07, 07:25 PM

Amir, thank you very much for your answer!

amirm

03-18-07, 07:37 PM

Amir, a few weeks ago you indicated that the HD-DVD Mobile Experience was heading to Atlanta in April. Do you have any dates and locations you can share on this yet? Thanks.
The truck is not going there but we are! I will need to create a thread about it in the HD DVD section. I think the date is second week of April.

f300v10

03-18-07, 08:44 PM

The truck is not going there but we are! I will need to create a thread about it in the HD DVD section. I think the date is second week of April.
Thanks, I will keep an eye out for the thread.

RDoherty

03-18-07, 09:23 PM

To all Insiders:

Studiocanal just issued an interesting press release stating that their 2nd HD-DVD wave will now be released on May 21, and that the reason of the delay was to integrate a new version of AACS which is due in April.

Amir, if you're planning to respond, it would be great if you could answer both on BD and HD-DVD on equal ground, because this is a global issue, and because both the BD and HD-DVD versions of Canal's 1st day-and-date release (Prête-moi ta main) have been affected as well and have yet to receive a new release date.

- What do we have to expect from the new set of AACS? Does it require a firmware update of all the existing BD and HD-DVD players in order to read the new discs?

- Does anybody know if this is the reason that led Fox to delay some of their BD titles?

- Assuming that new software has to be installed in our player, will the existing discs continue to be played, even if some of our copies have keys that had been compromised?

I can answer from the AACS perspective.

In the near future you may see software players that need to be upgraded and/or patched before they will play new content. It will not be a change to all drives and/or players, but simply updates to specific players that may have an identified vulnerability.

AACS has not identified any vulnerabilities in software titles themselves (just specific players). If an update is required for your player, then once you perform the update you should never have any difficulty playing any released disc.

A clear overriding goal of AACS is to minimize any impact on legitimate consumers.

And, obviously, I can't comment on the motivations of any particular studio.

benwaggoner

03-19-07, 01:33 AM

I have yet to experience HD video from the Xbox Video Marketplace where I live, although I've heard nice things about it. Still, I wonder if Marketplace must use well-known codecs only or if you are able to experiment with newer iterations of WMV that go beyond VC-1?
It's straight up VC-1. We're able to be a little more efficient in how we use it compared to the optical disc formats (like longer GOPs, VBR WMA Pro for audio), but it's the same codec. With the right source and the right settings, anyone can make WMV look as good as the Xbox Live Markplace content.

paidgeek

03-19-07, 10:31 AM

No, I really appreciate the amount of detail you provided. Thank you.

Now a followup question to Blu-ray insiders. I understand why the ROM-Mark (however it is spelled) may help combat professional piracy, but can somebody explain the requirement for AACS on Blu-ray? Is that to address professional piracy, other piracy, or something else I'm missing? Since (especially in the face of a format war) a good format can be modified if it makes the format better overall and is reasonable, is there any chance that the requirement for AACS will be reconsidered at any point here? From where I sit, that requirement for AACS on every release and the claims about replacing DVD within 3 years are contraditory, as you can't replace DVD without providing reasonable solutions for the small guys. If the Blu-ray group wants to achieve the latter I think they should reconsider the former. Any chance of that?

--Darin

The mandatory use of AACS on Blu-ray ROM is primarily a response to the current state of DVD. The studios have lost entire markets to piracy, even some that started out as legitimate, because it is so easy to manufacture pirate DVD ROM's with no copy protection. By requiring the players to check for AACS on ROM, it should be possible to develop a viable business with Blu-ray in certain countries.

Jackinbox

03-19-07, 10:37 AM

The mandatory use of AACS on Blu-ray ROM is primarily a response to the current state of DVD. The studios have lost entire markets to piracy, even some that started out as legitimate, because it is so easy to manufacture pirate DVD ROM's with no copy protection. By requiring the players to check for AACS on ROM, it should be possible to develop a viable business with Blu-ray in certain countries.

Paidgeek,

I'm curious though if a shady replicator couldn't just flag a BD-ROM as a BD-R and bypass AACS?

AlexBC

03-19-07, 12:56 PM

It would be acceptable to use 20 bit LPCM, but the nature of the way the data is packed requires that it occupy the same space as 24 bit LPCM.

Then by all means, let's go the 24bit LPCM way :D

Disney is using it to great effect. Titles like The Prestige, Pearl Harbor, Chicago, The Guardian and Enemy Of The State carry 48/24 LPCM tracks and still got remarkable reviews to both PQ and AQ in general, while still retaining all the extra features from their respective DVD release (with the exception of one extra in Chicago, that I believe was more related to the near VHS quality of the VH-1 special).

I know I'm just one consumer, but I would have bought every single SPHE BD title out since december (with the exception of RE:A) if they all had 24 LPCM tracks. But I'm being a little more restrictive due to their not full master quality.

What I did not understand was the preference for DTS lossless versus Dolby because

I see 3 major reasons (but my preference would still be for LPCM all other things being equal):

- From what I gather, no dialog normalization (I'll come back to this in a minute)
- Since space is an issue, by the very data you posted, DTS-HD MA (with 1,5mbps core) takes (slightly) less space than DTHD+DD640 at 48/24 .
- For last, what I believe is the most important, it has a much higher bitrate core for the legacy users (and at full 48/24, because almost all Dolby tracks up to now have been of the 16bit variety).

Regarding the DTS-HD MA decoding, the compatible hardware is starting to come out, with both the Panasonic announcement and the LG player is already on the market (though it's limited to analog outputs for the moment).

Can you elaborate on why you don't like dialnorm?

I don't like it because it messes with channel levels, and I don't think it makes sense to have to be altering a fine calibration on a title to title basis.

I don't wanna be throwing names here, but from what I read, Dan Hitchman and David Boulet have similar concerns (if I got you guys wrong, please correct me).

Now, from the little experience I had, comparing the LPCM and DTHD tracks on 'The Departed', I can say that for the tracks to subjectively sound the same, some tweaking was needed.

Of course this wasn't done at an absolute state of the art system, but for reference I believe it was good enough: Denon AVR 5805 + B&W 802 speakers for fronts and surround and with a more entry level B&W 600 series speakers.

Karnis

03-19-07, 01:17 PM

Are the industry insiders aware of the new GreenRay format just announced? You might find it of interest, complete with prototype pics:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=820901

amirm

03-19-07, 02:26 PM

Are the industry insiders aware of the new GreenRay format just announced? You might find it of interest, complete with prototype pics:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=820901
Learn something new everyday :D.

Love the "prototypes!"

coolscan

03-19-07, 03:07 PM

I am interested in the answer to the concern in this thread.
No bookmark option in eu HD DVDs! Why? (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=821865)

paidgeek

03-20-07, 02:21 AM

[QUOTE=AlexBC]

I don't like it because it messes with channel levels, and I don't think it makes sense to have to be altering a fine calibration on a title to title basis.

QUOTE]

There are two primary uses for Dial Norm, the first is to allow different Dolby streams to have the same apparent loudness level. I think this has worked well on SPE DVD titles because we actually take a measurement to determine the correct value to assign using an appropriate loudness meter. Note that this value only affects the decoder through this meta data value. It is really no different than an automatic adjustment of the receivers volume knob. Of course if you compare a Dolby stream to a DTS or LPCM stream, the levels will not match because those coding systems do not support this function.

Correction: DTS does support dial norm (and has for the last few years)

The other use for the dial norm value is to establish a reference point for DRC (compression). Audiophiles (and I am one) get annoyed at the thought of any compression taking place, but any receiver worth its salt will let you turn this function off.

If you think many posters are opposed to the use of Dial Norm, then I recommend taking a poll. If the respondents are in favor of disabling it (which is actually just setting the value to -31), then we can try it on a few titles and see how it goes.

lfletcher

03-20-07, 04:56 AM

Question for Amir.

It seems that the new Fox Pathé HD-DVD releases in France have some issues and may not play on the Gen1 HD-DVD players. According to this thread http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=816952

"None of the Pathé titles (Deux frères, Stalingrad, Les chevaliers du ciel) will play on HD-A1 or HD-XA1 players. "No disc" message is displayed. However, they do play on HD-E1 (A2) and HD-XE1 (XA2)."

Could you possibly investigate further to find out whether this is the case and whether Toshiba/Pathé are/can do anything to rectify the situation?

Thanks

amirm

03-20-07, 11:48 AM

Dr_Kn0w

03-20-07, 12:31 PM

Ian_S

03-20-07, 12:40 PM

If you think many posters are opposed to the use of Dial Norm, then I recommend taking a poll. If the respondents are in favor of disabling it (which is actually just setting the value to -31), then we can try it on a few titles and see how it goes.Rather than experiment with retail titles, how about SPE organising some viewing/listening sessions to see if people can tell the difference and if they can which they prefer...?? :) My only caveat would be that you include us over here in the UK. There's a nice little demo room in Guildford that comes to mind (Amir's been there:eek: ) and it's even got a Sony projector!

Not a question this bit, but I think it's great that forum's such as this result in companies such as MS, Sony etc participating and even offering to experiment with actual releases as a result.... :cool:

DaViD Boulet

03-20-07, 12:56 PM

There are two primary uses for Dial Norm, the first is to allow different Dolby streams to have the same apparent loudness level. I think this has worked well on SPE DVD titles because we actually take a measurement to determine the correct value to assign using an appropriate loudness meter. Note that this value only affects the decoder through this meta data value. It is really no different than an automatic adjustment of the receivers volume knob

This is not true.

Most high-end decoders, pre-amps, and receivers adjust volume in the analog domain. Cheap electronics that use digital-domain control to save money typically sound inferior. And high-end devices that use digital-volume control do so using very well designed algorithms and taking great care not to produce any audible degradation in the process.

I hardly think that's the sort of transparency coming out of the Dolby decoding chips on board the typical DVD, HD DVD, or BD player.

Dialog-normalization forces a recalculation of the ENTIRE waveform after PCM extraction. It is IMPOSSIBLE to get a bit-for-bit datastream from the output of a Dolby decoder when dialog normalization has been set, even with Dolby True HD titles.

I've heard Dolby Digital without dialog normalization applied and my first thought was "wow... sounds like DTS". In fact, I was so intrigued with the "DTS sound" of a particular Dolby track on a certain DVD that I contacted the recording engineer to find out why it sounded so much better than the sound of Dolby Digital on DVD that I had been accustomed to hearing.

He said: "Oh, that track sounded better because we didn't apply any dialog normalization to it".

In further conversations with this individual, it became clear that around the studio there was an opinion that the primary audible improvement with DTS over DD in practice on DVD was due to the dialog normalization setting typically being applied to Dolby Digital while DTS was left alone.

The use-case for Dialog-norm is when there are different programs streamed together that need to all be "normalized" in level to avoid playback discrepencies. Several programs on the same cable channel would be a good example. High-fidelity isn't as important in this case as level-matching across programs.

However, in a high-end AV application like Blu-ray or HD DVD were a single program item is delivered on a contained format like a disc, the use-case for dialog norm is moot and it shouldn't even be considered. It's legacy is one of the iconic examples of how the "more is better" approach to mastering, so rampant in the industry, contradicts the basic principle of high-fidelity mastering: lessons that the recording industry learned in the 1960's and managed to forget.

amirm

03-20-07, 01:05 PM

Hey Amir,

I apologize if this has been asked already, but I've read in another thread in the HD DVD section that the Xbox360 DTS addition is no longer going to be bundled with the Spring Dashboard update, but is going to be released sooner. Can you verify if this is infact true (which would be music to my ears :)) and can you provide an approximate timeline of when we can expect this patch? I've heard the Spring update was dated for May 8th...so I know it'll be before then....any insight is appreciated.
I can't comment on the schedule as we are "quality driven" (i.e. until we pass all of our quality metrics, we won't release). However, it is true that these are two different releases. We decoupled them as to be able to move more freely.

I know I speak for a lot of people when I say that I haven't really purchased/watched many HD DVD's due to the fact that the audio "quality" isn't up to par. I'm confident that this DTS patch will provide the audio experience I'm looking for to go with the visual experience that HD DVD has to offer.
Per my earlier note, the main fix applies to both codecs. So even DD output should sound better. Also note that your discs have always been fine, so investing in them, is not an issue :).

Appreciate everyone's patience on this. We want to do a quality release, fixing a lot of things so it is taking a bit of time to do it.

RobertR1

03-20-07, 03:03 PM

paidgeek

03-20-07, 04:52 PM

This is not true.

Most high-end decoders, pre-amps, and receivers adjust volume in the analog domain. Cheap electronics that use digital-domain control to save money typically sound inferior. And high-end devices that use digital-volume control do so using very well designed algorithms and taking great care not to produce any audible degradation in the process.

I hardly think that's the sort of transparency coming out of the Dolby decoding chips on board the typical DVD, HD DVD, or BD player.

Dialog-normalization forces a recalculation of the ENTIRE waveform after PCM extraction. It is IMPOSSIBLE to get a bit-for-bit datastream from the output of a Dolby decoder when dialog normalization has been set, even with Dolby True HD titles.

I've heard Dolby Digital without dialog normalization applied and my first thought was "wow... sounds like DTS". In fact, I was so intrigued with the "DTS sound" of a particular Dolby track on a certain DVD that I contacted the recording engineer to find out why it sounded so much better than the sound of Dolby Digital on DVD that I had been accustomed to hearing.

He said: "Oh, that track sounded better because we didn't apply any dialog normalization to it".

In further conversations with this individual, it became clear that around the studio there was an opinion that the primary audible improvement with DTS over DD in practice on DVD was due to the dialog normalization setting typically being applied to Dolby Digital while DTS was left alone.

The use-case for Dialog-norm is when there are different programs streamed together that need to all be "normalized" in level to avoid playback discrepencies. Several programs on the same cable channel would be a good example. High-fidelity isn't as important in this case as level-matching across programs.

However, in a high-end AV application like Blu-ray or HD DVD were a single program item is delivered on a contained format like a disc, the use-case for dialog norm is moot and it shouldn't even be considered. It's legacy is one of the iconic examples of how the "more is better" approach to mastering, so rampant in the industry, contradicts the basic principle of high-fidelity mastering: lessons that the recording industry learned in the 1960's and managed to forget.

David,

I understand your points, but please note from my earlier post that dial norm also serves a critical function for compression if that function has been selected (heresy for you, I know...) . The ability to surf audio channels on DVD or BD is also a reason that J6P may appreciate it.

That said, in monitoring the poll on this topic, there is clearly an overwhelming desire to encode streams without it that we were not aware of. We will almost certainly experiment with turning it off on upcoming titles and see if there is a backlash.

Rob Tomlin

03-20-07, 04:58 PM

Where is this poll?

Edit: Found it here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10079675#post10079675)

paidgeek

03-20-07, 04:58 PM

Paidgeek,

Having watched Casino Royale in the theaters on 2 occasions (2 diff. theaters also), the picture was grainy throughout. However, the BR version is very inconsistant with the grain. Some scenes are grainy while others have none. What happened here?

The master is inconsistent with grain as well. In the theater you are seeing the DI overlayed with grain from the film out/print process, so it is harder to see the original negative grain fluctuate from scene to scene because you are looking at it through more film processing.

The whole title had a light film grain reduction pass with special attention paid to a couple of scenes that were particularly grainy.

This title was a rare case in that we were able to screen the final result for Martin Campbell with the master available as a reference, he was extremely pleased with the results.

DaViD Boulet

03-20-07, 05:12 PM

I understand your points, but please note from my earlier post that dial norm also serves a critical function for compression if that function has been selected (heresy for you, I know...) . The ability to surf audio channels on DVD or BD is also a reason that J6P may appreciate it.

Paidgeek,

yes, I can understand that the context of toggling audio tracks might seem a use-case for dialogue-normalization. However, since all such audio tracks are under the care of your mastering engineers during disc-authoring, why not just record them so that their levels match to begin with, using the highest-fidelity track (the film's original soundtrack) as your point of reference? Or leave it set to "off" for that main track and leave it set to "on" for the other tracks but with a dialog-norm setting that will match the perceived volume of the film's master-track?

Compression and the other "features" of Dolby Digital have NO PLACE in an audiophile application. What other application (other than audiophile) do you consider a high-resolution lossless audio track to have? It's purpose should be transparency to the master. That's all. That's the audience that such a track is provided to satisfy.

Azumi

03-20-07, 05:41 PM

paidgeek,

I recently watched Hellboy on BD (euro release, region ABC), and the quality of the disc is excellent. I understand that Sony put special care in this disc, and the result is there.

I was wondering if you could mention from time to time some titles or features that *stand out*. Clearly, I don't intend to put you in a delicate position. What I rather mean, is that it would be great if you could mention the small accomplishments and highlights that make some discs "special". Like Stomp the Yard being the 1st title with THD, Open Season that was a showcase for AVC, possibly Hellboy for putting special care in the PQ department, director ABC supervising the BD of XYZ, and so on.

As an example, here's an idea of a topic where you could spend a couple of words: ;)
Paprika is the 1st anime you're putting out on BD. I understand it also involves 2D traditional animation. What were the difficulties involved to encode and translate the look correctly? And does Paprika bode well for the prospect of releasing on BD some other anime you have in your library? :)

SiggiG

03-20-07, 05:53 PM

Amirm, since "semi official" information has started to come out about the Xbox 360 Elite SKU, can you comment on whether this model can output 8 track LPCM sound over HDMI? :)

SamwisetheBrave

03-20-07, 05:56 PM

Yes, I just fired off a note. Will report what I hear back.
I hope this non-question is okay as it is a clarification for you, Amir.

I just got back from Paris where I bought the French language version of TWO BROTHERS. When I tried to play it on my A1, I got the dreaded "no disc" message. I guess washing the disc isn't going to help! :o

Clark Burk

03-20-07, 11:34 PM

paidgeek,

Is there any progress on the firmware update for the Sony BDP-S1 that addresses the issue of studdering on 1080p24 output with BDs encoded with the AVC codec?

BioSehnsucht

03-21-07, 12:50 AM

Amirm, since "semi official" information has started to come out about the Xbox 360 Elite SKU, can you comment on whether this model can output 8 track LPCM sound over HDMI? :)

Ditto! Also, as a note, if per the "semi-official" info the Elite becomes a Premium (but in white) later I will buy a new 360 just for multichannel LPCM over HDMI ! that is, right after I buy a new receiver that can handle it.. but I will :D

paidgeek

03-21-07, 10:30 AM

paidgeek,

Is there any progress on the firmware update for the Sony BDP-S1 that addresses the issue of studdering on 1080p24 output with BDs encoded with the AVC codec?

I expect a version to be released that solves this problem by early April. They are also making great strides in Java performance.

paidgeek

03-21-07, 10:40 AM

Maxpower1987

03-21-07, 11:21 AM

Hi Azumi,

I will pass on what I can from time to time....

Here are a few items of note:

Be sure to get a look at the following titles when they come out, the masters were exceptional:

Immortal Beloved
Ghandi
Anger Management
Hollowman
Ghost Rider
The Big Hit
Final Fantasy

This is not to say that our other releases won't also be very good, but these masters have qualities that make them particularly outstanding in HD.

Are we going to get any info on FFVII: Advent Children at the upcoming Squeenix party?

swanlee

03-21-07, 12:44 PM

For Amir

"It's straight up VC-1. We're able to be a little more efficient in how we use it compared to the optical disc formats (like longer GOPs, VBR WMA Pro for audio), but it's the same codec. With the right source and the right settings, anyone can make WMV look as good as the Xbox Live Markplace content."

I have been searching for a good tool that converts video to .wmv so I can stream HD content from my PC to my 360.

I have yet to find one tool that effectively converts various formats to .wmv using VC-1 well. Are there any consumer based converters that you can recommend a person to purchase for this?

benwaggoner

03-21-07, 01:59 PM

I have been searching for a good tool that converts video to .wmv so I can stream HD content from my PC to my 360.

I have yet to find one tool that effectively converts various formats to .wmv using VC-1 well. Are there any consumer based converters that you can recommend a person to purchase for this?
It's $499, but Canopus ProCoder can read a huge variety of input formats, has a rich WMV implementation, and supports Watch Folders and Droplets. There's also a roughly $5000 version of it from Rhozet called Carbon that does even more formats, but unless you need integration with professional broadcast servers, that would probably be overkill :).

We provide a free SDK for authoring Windows Media, so there are huge numbers of utilities that support WMV encoding, so there may be more consumer-focused produces that would work for you as well.

crashoveridema0

03-21-07, 03:10 PM

Kris Deering

03-21-07, 03:13 PM

Hi Azumi,

I will pass on what I can from time to time....

Here are a few items of note:

Be sure to get a look at the following titles when they come out, the masters were exceptional:

Immortal Beloved
Ghandi
Anger Management
Hollowman
Ghost Rider
The Big Hit
Final Fantasy

This is not to say that our other releases won't also be very good, but these masters have qualities that make them particularly outstanding in HD.

Interesting that you mention Final Fantasy. The DVD had a lot of issues that looked like jaggies. Look forward to seeing it on BD!

Kris Deering

03-21-07, 03:15 PM

I expect a version to be released that solves this problem by early April. They are also making great strides in Java performance.

Any word on the Sony supporting TrueHD soundtracks? Especially now that Sony is releasing titles in that format.

Donnie Eldridge

03-21-07, 03:45 PM

Paidgeek,

Which Final Fantasy were you referring to?

AlexBC

03-21-07, 04:01 PM

WOW, has there ever been such an unanimous poll here at AVS?

Very interesting indeed :)

Paidgeek,

now I have another question, how does Sony intend to deal with audio on the older catalog titles once they start to come out? (I can even see some on the list you just posted)

My opinion is that (and I know it's shared by many) BOTH, the original audio track and whatever 5.1 remix studios want to use, should be presented in uncompressed or lossless fashion for all titles not originally mastered for 5.1 (or higher). That's maintaining the original movie integrity and offering a change for revisionist viewing.

That should also be specially easy on bandwith since the original audio will probably be either stereo or mono.

In general, DVDs with either stereo or mono soundtrack can't hold a candle to their respective LDs with LPCM audio. For the movie enthusiast, it's just about time we get back to those heydays for audio on catalog titles. ;)

darinp2

03-21-07, 04:57 PM

Be sure to get a look at the following titles when they come out, the masters were exceptional:

The Big HitThanks paidgeek. I haven't looked at this one, but noticed that HighDefDigest reviewed it and gave it 3 out of 5 stars for video. Just wondering if you had any comments. The review is here:

http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/bighit.html

Also, as far as the sales for "Casino Royale" that will reportedly be released as over 100k when it is over that, can you tell us whether those will count sales to dealers, or just to end users?

Thanks,
Darin

paidgeek

03-21-07, 06:55 PM

Any word on the Sony supporting TrueHD soundtracks? Especially now that Sony is releasing titles in that format.

Kris,

I don't have any news on the BDPS1 player decoding lossless streams at this time. If I hear something concrete on this, I'll pass it along.

captaincelluloid

03-21-07, 06:59 PM

Hi Azumi,
Be sure to get a look at the following titles when they come out, the masters were exceptional:

Immortal Beloved
Ghandi
Anger Management
Hollowman
Ghost Rider
The Big Hit
Final Fantasy

This is not to say that our other releases won't also be very good, but these masters have qualities that make them particularly outstanding in HD.

Could you elaborate on what those particular qualities are.
Are they technical or aesthetic or both or what?

Thanks for now . . . .

-30-

paidgeek

03-21-07, 07:06 PM

Paidgeek,

Which Final Fantasy were you referring to?

Final Fantasy - The Spirits Within

paidgeek

03-21-07, 07:09 PM

cyberbri

03-21-07, 07:12 PM

Amir,

Thanks for your continued support of this thread.

I have a question about the Xbox 360. Aside from the rumors which appear to be true about a new HDMI-equipped version of the 360 coming soon, is it technically possible for the current adapter plug on the Xbox 360 to work with some sort of HDMI output?

In other words...
Currently you can plug composite, s-video, component and VGA adapters into it, but is the hardware such that an HDMI adapter would be technically possible?

If you can't comment on this, I understand.

Thanks!

-Brian

paidgeek

03-21-07, 07:12 PM

Thanks paidgeek. I haven't looked at this one, but noticed that HighDefDigest reviewed it and gave it 3 out of 5 stars for video. Just wondering if you had any comments. The review is here:

http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/bighit.html

Also, as far as the sales for "Casino Royale" that will reportedly be released as over 100k when it is over that, can you tell us whether those will count sales to dealers, or just to end users?

Thanks,
Darin

Please ignore the "Big Hit", my mistake...

The sales numbers for "Casino Royal" are 'sold-in' as opposed to 'sell-through' the latter being a much harder number to confirm. The key is that the retailers have already placed re-orders based on their actual or projected unit sales.

paidgeek

03-21-07, 07:21 PM

Could you elaborate on what those particular qualities are.
Are they technical or aesthetic or both or what?

Thanks for now . . . .

-30-

The titles I mentioned have very good focus, consistent levels of grain, and are composed in such a way that on good equipment, you can't help but notice that you are watching an HD image.

Azumi

03-21-07, 07:26 PM

Final Fantasy - The Spirits Within

Sweet. Now we're talking! :)

Will you be including as well the work-in-progress version of the film, like the DVD? And since of the stuff is digital, it would be great to have the alternative opening scene and most of the supplements in HD.

And don't forget to add the Easter's eggs of the DVD concerning Aki and the Thriller spoof. ;)

The double DVD of this movie was truly a milestone, possibly even more than the DVD-18 MiB. It would really be fantastic if Sony decided to push the envelope likewise with this BD.

PacificDisc

03-21-07, 10:15 PM

I don't have any specific information about replication costs for BD, but if BD follows a curve anything like DVD, replication costs will be a small concern after 5 years.

Here are our prices for BD (& HD) replication

http://www.pacificdisc.com/PricingHD-DVD.html

darinp2

03-21-07, 10:24 PM

Here are our prices for BD (& HD) replication

http://www.pacificdisc.com/PricingHD-DVD.htmlThanks for the info. Do you do HD DVD combos? Just wondering about how much more those are for the 15s and 30s.

--Darin

amirm

03-21-07, 10:48 PM

Dear amirm,

Iv, been hearing rumors of how walmart is now getting rid of its stock of hd dvd players and is now selling the 360 hd dvd add-on for 130 this could be the end of the format war, do you have any comment?
I don't have any details of merchandising at Wal-Mart to share with you. However, some people think The Matrix coming to HD DVD may be the end of the format war :p.

Just kidding... But boy, it has been so hard to keep this secret all this time. This is one HD DVD the company doesn't have to buy me for free!

ckong

03-21-07, 10:51 PM

Here are our prices for BD (& HD) replication

http://www.pacificdisc.com/PricingHD-DVD.html

Is there a reason why there is no pricing info for dual layer BD?

crashoveridema0

03-21-07, 10:54 PM

dear amirm,

yes thank you for your very intersting answer, but if microsoft was to release an hdmi-xbox 360 would there be some sort of adapter or cable for current 360 owners?

amirm

03-21-07, 11:07 PM

dear amirm,

yes thank you for your very intersting answer, but if microsoft was to release an hdmi-xbox 360 would there be some sort of adapter or cable for current 360 owners?
I wish I could say yes, but I just can't.

crashoveridema0

03-21-07, 11:11 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by crashoveridema0
dear amirm,

yes thank you for your very intersting answer, but if microsoft was to release an hdmi-xbox 360 would there be some sort of adapter or cable for current 360 owners?

I wish I could say yes, but I just can't.

wish you could say yes but you cant because, you cant comment or you cant say yes because thats not happening?

RobertR1

03-21-07, 11:18 PM

I don't have any details of merchandising at Wal-Mart to share with you. However, some people think The Matrix coming to HD DVD may be the end of the format war :p.

Just kidding... But boy, it has been so hard to keep this secret all this time. This is one HD DVD the company doesn't have to buy me for free!

How many other such secrets are you holding onto? Sharing is caring, Amir :)

AlexBC

03-21-07, 11:19 PM

I don't think we have too many titles with 5.1 remixes, but I agree with the idea that both should be available in LPCM or lossless.

That's really good. One thing that worries me is not having the original audio track like on The Terminator disc and to make matters worse, the 5.1 remix has new foley effects and misses some music cues. I know it was among your first discs, but it would be a shame to see this kind of thing happening again. Specially with the great track record Sony has been keeping the past months.

Can we expect the upcoming (and announced) release for Revenge to feature the original audio track in lossless audio?

amirm

03-21-07, 11:32 PM

How many other such secrets are you holding onto? Sharing is caring, Amir :)
At any one time, quite a few! In this case though, I spilled the beans when I mentioned last month that there were amazing titles coming. Alas, I am not sure folks believed it...

Meatpopsicle

03-21-07, 11:35 PM

At any one time, quite a few! In this case though, I spilled the beans when I mentioned last month that there were amazing titles coming. Alas, I am not sure folks believed it...

So Amir, is it safe to say that there are other "surprises" of this caliber in store for HD DVD?

BTW - How long have you known about Matrix?

Grubert

03-22-07, 04:17 AM

amir,

The Warner PR announcing the Matrix trilogy indicates the discs are all dual-sided.

My question is:

- Are dual-side HD discs (30/15 or 30/30) standardised and ready to replicate by May?

MBL

03-22-07, 05:50 AM

amir,
1. When can we expect to see more LIVE concert recordings released on HD DVD?
2. Why dont you try to give a release indicator of the xbox360 DTS update. As one previous stated - half the joy is in waiting for something, that you KNOW when to get! For myself I have stopped purchasing more HD DVD's, as I will need more specific information on update, before investing more money in movies and concerts with relatively "poor" sound stage.
3. Also why dont you try to make smaller releases instead of 1 big solving appearntly all issues on sound, menus etc. Smaller and more frequent updates could be welcomed!
4. Lastly - as I understand that you have been testing the new DTS-update, could you try to describe how big af sound wise difference it will be with current xbox360 connections (optical)
5. Super lastly - any comments on the rumored Xbox360 Elite SKU?

Thanks in advance for your reply
Regards
Martin Lynge

joshd2012

03-22-07, 07:37 AM

Here are our prices for BD (& HD) replication

http://www.pacificdisc.com/PricingHD-DVD.html

$.70 difference for 100,000 units. Is this media price differences, or machinery operation differences?

Jon_W

03-22-07, 09:09 AM

Grubert, might they be HDDVD 30 and DVD-9? Just a thought

Grubert

03-22-07, 09:31 AM

Grubert, might they be HDDVD 30 and DVD-9? Just a thought

Yes, they might. The red-laser side might even be HD. I'm just trying to narrow down the possibilities.

PacificDisc

03-22-07, 10:08 AM

Thanks for the info. Do you do HD DVD combos? Just wondering about how much more those are for the 15s and 30s.

Combos? Are you talking about a multiple discs in a single case?

PacificDisc

03-22-07, 10:10 AM

Is there a reason why there is no pricing info for dual layer BD?

Just haven't been told yet. Expect to add this in the coming weeks.

muzz

03-22-07, 10:13 AM

Combos? Are you talking about a multiple discs in a single case?

I may be wrong here, but I think he's asking about SD version on one side, and the HD DVD version on the other side of ONE disc.

PacificDisc

03-22-07, 10:14 AM

$.70 difference for 100,000 units. Is this media price differences, or machinery operation differences?

You're talking to the monkey, not the organ grinder. But I expect that this is due to machinery costs. As you all know, HD DVDs can be made on modified equipment we already own. Blu-ray lines cost an arm-and-a-leg and we'll be trying to recoup those costs quickly.

Suspect that later this year, when we've made back some of the investment, we'll be dropping the price -- as will most other replicators.

PacificDisc

03-22-07, 10:24 AM

I may be wrong here, but I think he's asking about SD version on one side, and the HD DVD version on the other side of ONE disc.

Yeah, sounds tricky. I'll check with the production folks and report back to the forum.

markrubin

03-22-07, 11:26 AM

mod

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amirm

03-22-07, 11:46 AM

amir,

The Warner PR announcing the Matrix trilogy indicates the discs are all dual-sided.

My question is:

- Are dual-side HD discs (30/15 or 30/30) standardised and ready to replicate by May?
I don't personally know. I have asked and if I can share the info, I will.

amirm

03-22-07, 12:00 PM

amir,
1. When can we expect to see more LIVE concert recordings released on HD DVD?
Unfortunately, I don’t have any data. Maybe Ben has more insight into upcoming titles in this category.

2. Why dont you try to give a release indicator of the xbox360 DTS update. As one previous stated - half the joy is in waiting for something, that you KNOW when to get! For myself I have stopped purchasing more HD DVD's, as I will need more specific information on update, before investing more money in movies and concerts with relatively "poor" sound stage.
I appreciate this. But it took me three months of trying to get you the last answer :). But I will give it another shot and see if I can share more.

As to more info, here is an embarrassing nugget. The reason the audio dynamic range is not where it should be is that the Dolby Digital/DD+ decoder is permanently stuck in the "night" mode. This is the mode you can set on your DVD player where the dynamics are compressed as to not wake up the others sleeping in the house. Apparently, Dolby certification rules mandate that night mode be on, if there is no UI to turn it on and off. Their assumption is that without such UI, this a portable DVD player and such, driving a TV with its little speaker which may get damaged with full dynamic range!

Anyway, the above is a silly requirement in this situation but I don't want to put the fault on Dolby. We should have caught this and put in the UI and do it right. So the update will have a UI setting with default being full dynamic range. This is why I said earlier that even normal Dolby Digital output will sound better. But per pervious posts, we will also be adding DTS encoding output at its higher rate.

The major part of this release by the way, is fixing title compatibility issues. Just about everything reported here and elsewhere has been addressed.

3. Also why dont you try to make smaller releases instead of 1 big solving appearntly all issues on sound, menus etc. Smaller and more frequent updates could be welcomed!
This is due to what we call “release tax.” We do a ton of testing which has to happen whether we fix one thing or a hundred. Being a big company, we can’t afford to miss some critical step in this process. Nor do we want to have regressions where something that used to work, now doesn’t. With so many titles to retest now, it is harder to do quick test passes. But yes, you could argue that we should have just fixed the audio problem early on in a quick update but we are where we are. As always I appreciate your patience.
4. Lastly - as I understand that you have been testing the new DTS-update, could you try to describe how big af sound wise difference it will be with current xbox360 connections (optical)
You should be able to simulate this yourself. Just take your DVD player and turn on the Night mode and then listen. That should give you an idea of the type of improvements you can expect there.
5. Super lastly - any comments on the rumored Xbox360 Elite SKU?
No comment really as those are rumors and we don’t say anything about them.

amirm

03-22-07, 12:02 PM

Wasn't this announced (without a release date) at CES? How then is it a surprise?
Not this level of detail. That is, HD DVD release being first. So much extra material. The pricing. The release date, etc.

amirm

03-22-07, 12:05 PM

yes thank you for your very intersting answer, but if microsoft was to release an hdmi-xbox 360 would there be some sort of adapter or cable for current 360 owners?

I wish I could say yes, but I just can't.

wish you could say yes but you cant because, you cant comment or you cant say yes because thats not happening?
I just don't want to set your expectations about something we have not said we have. We have not said there will be an HDMI cable for current box. So making assumptions about that one way or the other, is not sound. You should buy the 360 for what it does today. It has broadcast quality analog output plus a very low cost HD DVD player add-on. If you need HDMI, buy a low cost Toshiba player to augment it.

markrubin

03-22-07, 12:12 PM

AVS welcomes our newest Insider : PacificDisc

xradman

03-22-07, 12:18 PM

Paidgeek,

Thank you for your participation in this thread. I want to ask you about something that has been nagging me a little about Sony Blu-ray releases to date. What is it with generic design and title for disc art? I think even modification of SD DVD disc art to make each release stand out a little from each other would be a vast improvement on what we have now? Fox, Disney, and Lionsgate all seem to have put together a look which differentiate their discs while maintaining a cohesive Blu-ray look for their brands. Surely there are graphic designers at Sony who could do the same, no???

DTV TiVo Dealer

03-22-07, 12:31 PM

AVS welcomes our newest Insider : PacificDisc

I like PacificDisc. I have spoked to them on several occasions. Very skillful customer service folks.

-Robert

rover2002

03-22-07, 12:33 PM

Hi Robert,
Eny more news on the 1st gen firmware updates?
Ta :)

RichB

03-22-07, 12:46 PM

Is there any news on the availability of lower cost internal HD DVD or BDROM drives for the PC?

There are new motherboards/Chipsets from AMD the look to provide a low cost PC solution (less than $400). The problem now remains in the drive.

It seems to me the PC is a huge potential source of new players ;)

- Rich

PacificDisc

03-22-07, 12:57 PM

AVS welcomes our newest Insider : PacificDisc

Thank you Mark -- happy to be involved.

No shameless plugs here, but if you have questions about making HD DVD or Blu-ray discs (min 5,000), post them here and I'll endeavor to get them answered.

xradman

03-22-07, 01:06 PM

Thank you Mark -- happy to be involved.

No shameless plugs here, but if you have questions about making HD DVD or Blu-ray discs (min 5,000), post them here and I'll endeavor to get them answered.
A question that's been raised many times here, what are the real world yields for HD DVD SL, DL, and BD SL?

Caurus

03-22-07, 01:12 PM

As to more info, here is an embarrassing nugget. The reason the audio dynamic range is not where it should be is that the Dolby Digital/DD+ decoder is permanently stuck in the "night" mode. This is the mode you can set on your DVD player where the dynamics are compressed as to not wake up the others sleeping in the house. Apparently, Dolby certification rules mandate that night mode be on, if there is no UI to turn it on and off. Their assumption is that without such UI, this a portable DVD player and such, driving a TV with its little speaker which may get damaged with full dynamic range!

Anyway, the above is a silly requirement in this situation but I don't want to put the fault on Dolby. We should have caught this and put in the UI and do it right. So the update will have a UI setting with default being full dynamic range. This is why I said earlier that even normal Dolby Digital output will sound better. But per pervious posts, we will also be adding DTS encoding output at its higher rate.

DOH! I knew it, I knew it! I called Microsoft several times. I told them. BAAAAAHHHHH! But nobody was listening to me. The xbox team could have fixed this month ago - last year!

SERENITY NOW!

O.k. now I need a question...eh, well, yes...

So, Amir, you wrote the DTS update is decoupled from the spring update. To become decoupled it must have been coupled before. It must have been coupled for some good reasons. But then I can think of only one reason to decouple the release: one will be late. Reading your posts I see that you are not excluding the possibility that the DTS update will come AFTER the spring update. Did I understood this right? This possibility is not ruled out, right? I am not asking for the release date, I just want to make sure I understand the nature of the decoupling and can draw my own conclusions about the release date.

amirm

03-22-07, 01:17 PM

DOH! I knew it, I knew it! I called Microsoft several times. I told them. BAAAAAHHHHH! But nobody was listening to me. The xbox team could have fixed this month ago - last year!

SERENITY NOW!
Hey, even I didn't believe it at first :).

So, Amir, you wrote the DTS update is decoupled from the spring update. To become decoupled it must have been coupled before. It must have been coupled for some good reasons. But then I can think of only one reason to decouple the release: one will be late. Reading your posts I see that you are not excluding the possibility that the DTS update will come AFTER the spring update. Did I understood this right? This possibility is not ruled out, right? I am not asking for the release date, I just want to make sure I understand the nature of the decoupling and can draw my own conclusions about the release date.
No, it is not decoupled because it is "late." It was decoupled to allow us freedom on both projects. This by itself does not lead to one or the other project being late.

Please hang in there until I can get you more data. Speculation doesn't really yield more data here, just empty angst....

PacificDisc

03-22-07, 01:29 PM

I like PacificDisc. I have spoked to them on several occasions. Very skillful customer service folks.

-Robert

Thanks Robert.

Talkstr8t

03-22-07, 02:10 PM

f microsoft was to release an hdmi-xbox 360 would there be some sort of adapter or cable for current 360 owners?There have been reports that one of the requirements for HDMI is a standard connector on the device. I haven't verified this personally, but I'm not aware of any devices which support HDMI through anything but a direct female socket on the device.

- Talk

PacificDisc

03-22-07, 02:12 PM

Thanks for the info. Do you do HD DVD combos? Just wondering about how much more those are for the 15s and 30s.

--Darin

Hi Darin -

Assuming you are asking about HD DVD replication with Single-Layer on one side and Dual-Layer on the other; my production guy groaned, when asked and said that this is very hard to achieve and we've never done it. For that matter, we're not sure it can be done by any replicator today [could be wrong, but we don't know of anyone]. Sorry.

Like many other questions -- ask me in 6 months!

Talkstr8t

03-22-07, 02:12 PM

Welcome, PacificDisc,

Will you be willing to replicate Blu-ray titles for the adult industry, or do you expect to do business with the major studios, most of whom don't allow their replicators to also produce adult titles?

Talkstr8t

03-22-07, 02:22 PM

What is the maximum number of buttons (on menu) for HD DVD and Blu-Ray (are there any limitations)? For Blu-ray, HDMV supports 8160 per page; there is no specific limit for BD-J. For HD DVD, standard content allows 48, for advanced content you'd probably be constrained by the maximum number of DOM nodes permitted, 5,000.

- Talk

PacificDisc

03-22-07, 02:38 PM

TV Casualty

03-22-07, 02:39 PM

I'm feeling a growing sense of dread about the possibility of an HDMI cable for the current 360. I probably wouldn't be as down about it if we hadn't been told it was possible to begin with. I'll cross my fingers for some kind of miracle dongle/attachment that will allow it I guess.

Amir -
I apologize if this was asked already, I went several pages back and didn't see it. Any word on if the online interactive features that Universal has coming up for a few releases will be working on the 360? It seems like it should since it's an online console, but my knowledge of how much freedom that connection has outside of Live is limited.

BuGsArEtAsTy

03-22-07, 03:21 PM

The reason the audio dynamic range is not where it should be is that the Dolby Digital/DD+ decoder is permanently stuck in the "night" mode.
Glad to finally hear an explanation about the dynamic range issue. That makes perfect sense considering what we were hearing.

The major part of this release by the way, is fixing title compatibility issues. Just about everything reported here and elsewhere has been addressed.
Has there been significant progress on the audio lag issue too?

dkny75

03-22-07, 03:34 PM

Hi Darin -

Assuming you are asking about HD DVD replication with Single-Layer on one side and Dual-Layer on the other; my production guy groaned, when asked and said that this is very hard to achieve and we've never done it. For that matter, we're not sure it can be done by any replicator today [could be wrong, but we don't know of anyone]. Sorry.

Like many other questions -- ask me in 6 months!
Hey PacificDisc, I think Darin (sorry for assuming but if not then this will be an original question) was talking about 15gb HD DVD on one side and 9gb DVD on the other and 30gb HD DVD on one side and 9gb DVD on the other. Otherwise known as the dreaded combo disc that always seems to cost more.

BTW, is there a reason you don't have pricing for dual layer 50gb Blu-ray on your site and does the adult entertainment thing pertain to both formats?

Thanks and welcome aboard.

PacificDisc

03-22-07, 03:48 PM

Hey PacificDisc, I think Darin (sorry for assuming but if not then this will be an original question) was talking about 15gb HD DVD on one side and 9gb DVD on the other and 30gb HD DVD on one side and 9gb DVD on the other. Otherwise known as the dreaded combo disc that always seems to cost more.

BTW, is there a reason you don't have pricing for dual layer 50gb Blu-ray on your site and does the adult entertainment thing pertain to both formats?

Thanks and welcome aboard.

Thanks for the warm welcome. Interesting discussions.

The official stance of PacificDisc at time of writing is that we don't do combos -- in any flavor. Suspect this to change in time, but right now we're busy cutting our teeth on the standard stuff.

As for 50Gb Blu-ray (or dual layer), we're not tooled up to do these right now. Probably mid-year for us, at least.

Adult content? We don't allow it in the building. We do lots of work for clients who won't work with a company that does. Trust me, I've tried, as there is opportunity out there, but this is a corporate policy issue and not something I can influence.

Frode

03-22-07, 05:58 PM

Question for any AACS insider. According to these two articles (sorry they're in german) PC playback software has to switch to new AACS keys at least once every 18 months according to the AACS license:

http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/86693
http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/83289

Is this correct? Plextor have stated that they won't allow customers free upgrades of these keys after February 2008, and I'm worried that Intervideo and Cyberlink will do the same since Plextor essentially just licenses the OEM versions.

darinp2

03-22-07, 10:09 PM

The official stance of PacificDisc at time of writing is that we don't do combos -- in any flavor. Suspect this to change in time, but right now we're busy cutting our teeth on the standard stuff.Thanks for the answers Sean. Just to be clear, it was the discs with HD DVD on one side and DVD on the other (like the HD DVD version of "Happy Feet") that I was referring to. If you guys decide to start doing those in the future I'm sure there are people here who would be interested in hearing the premium for them.

Thanks,
Darin

Karnis

03-23-07, 07:59 AM

Originally Posted by amirm
The reason the audio dynamic range is not where it should be is that the Dolby Digital/DD+ decoder is permanently stuck in the "night" mode.

Would not a short workaround for this be to select a lossless audio track (if available) and then set your processors' audio decoder to MAX dynamic range?

Caurus

03-23-07, 09:36 AM

Please hang in there until I can get you more data. Speculation doesn't really yield more data here, just empty angst....

Well, the last time I had angst in this forum was when there was a rumor that it will take three month for the bug fix to show up. That was on 12-06-06.

But I have resigned. Bring the bugfix tomorrow or in 10 month, I don't care anymore. It was just... ah, let's forget this topic.

What I do care about is the results of your poll about Combo pricing. One of the huge selling points of HD DVD always were the cheaper media prices. But these Combos are actually more expensive then the Bluray versions. And I already consider the Bluray versions as much too expensive. Why can't Universal lower their Combo prices to a 19,99 street price like the catalog titels? I am definitely not paying 28 bucks for a movie - not even for Children of Men. Every media price that starts with a 2 or higher is a no go. There is my psychological barrier.

Do you think Universal will reconsider their pricing? Or will they at least give us some special sales in the future?

drhill

03-23-07, 10:15 AM

chefboy1

03-23-07, 10:21 AM

TomsHT

03-23-07, 11:01 AM

If one format should "die" within the next 12 months, have the major studios considered having a trade-in program to swap existing HD discs for a nominal fee? Or would the response be, "too bad you picked the wrong horse, now go buy the same movie again!" I'm sure I've seen Disney already do this for VHS-DVD and wonder if studios are willing to extend the policy to HD discs.

Since neither HD DVD/BD sales have really taken off yet, perhaps this can be used as a reward to early adopters for their support.

I have a slight variation to Chefboy1's question.

I dont think any studio would even admit defeat in the next 12 months for something like this to ever happen.

But it does have me wondering about the hardware aspect of this. Early adopters have invested alot in these players. Players that still contain glitches and lack features due to specs still continuing to change.

Will any type of discount be given to early adopters for there support to be applied towards upgrading players as they become available?

I think this could go a long way towards bringing more consumers in now if they are not as worried about having to upgrade as glitches get fixed and specs change.

FatiusJeebs

03-23-07, 11:03 AM

amirm,

I'm glad to hear about the sound fixes for our rather beloved movie joybox... but there is one feature that is dearly missing for video. Different output resolution for movies (HD/SD) then for games. I'm too lazy to constantly switch from 1080i to 720p when I start playing games, so I leave it at 1080i and let my games suffer. This can't be a huge deal since the box already switches resolution for SD-DVD's for us component users. That and some more video tweaking features at different resolutions (to fix the fact that SD-DVD's are way too bright at 480p). Any chance for these features in the update or anytime soon?

Also... figured I'd give this a futile stab too. If it were not technically possible to have a cable HDMI add on for old Xbox users has an upgrade path been discussed for those unfortunates who really want HDMI? I don't care at all about more HD space, but I really want to upconvert my dvd's and use my HDMI ports on my tv (as vga on sony's suck).

Suffer? I do everything in 1080i. You can honestly tell a major difference between 720 p and 1080i?

amirm

03-23-07, 11:10 AM

What I do care about is the results of your poll about Combo pricing. One of the huge selling points of HD DVD always were the cheaper media prices. But these Combos are actually more expensive then the Bluray versions. And I already consider the Bluray versions as much too expensive. Why can't Universal lower their Combo prices to a 19,99 street price like the catalog titels? I am definitely not paying 28 bucks for a movie - not even for Children of Men. Every media price that starts with a 2 or higher is a no go. There is my psychological barrier.

Do you think Universal will reconsider their pricing? Or will they at least give us some special sales in the future?[/
I am a little confused about your comment. The poll generated significant results. Universal decided to no longer use combos on library titles (recall that they had announced that all of their titles for this year would be combos) and use competitive pricing when they do use them on new titles.

Complicating matters is a bit is Fox pricing their non-combo BD titles so high. If BD fans revolted against them, I would have another argument. But all I see is folks celebrating that they are BD exclusive and buying their titles anyway. This was a tough argument to get around.

Please note that I am not in a position to dictate anything to studios. I pass on your suggestions with my recommendations but just like the fact that they don't tell us how to write software, ultimately how they price combos is between them and their customers (which goes beyond this forum).

But yes, I agree with your suggestion and will continue to speak on your behalf to studios.

amirm

03-23-07, 11:14 AM

amirm,

I'm glad to hear about the sound fixes for our rather beloved movie joybox... but there is one feature that is dearly missing for video. Different output resolution for movies (HD/SD) then for games. I'm too lazy to constantly switch from 1080i to 720p when I start playing games, so I leave it at 1080i and let my games suffer. This can't be a huge deal since the box already switches resolution for SD-DVD's for us component users. That and some more video tweaking features at different resolutions (to fix the fact that SD-DVD's are way too bright at 480p). Any chance for these features in the update or anytime soon?
I am not 100% following what you are saying :). But if my understanding is right, yes, there will be some new features to help with this.

Also... figured I'd give this a futile stab too. If it were not technically possible to have a cable HDMI add on for old Xbox users has an upgrade path been discussed for those unfortunates who really want HDMI? I don't care at all about more HD space, but I really want to upconvert my dvd's and use my HDMI ports on my tv (as vga on sony's suck).
You have to remember that it is hard to give a discount on any new game console, when you don't make money on it :). So should there be a new box, the best thing to do is to sell the others or do as I do and use it in another room as a great media extender. You get the media center UI remoted and its existing connections should be more than good enough for any secondary applications.

dialog_gvf

03-23-07, 11:20 AM

Complicating matters is a bit is Fox pricing their non-combo BD titles so high. If BD fans revolted against them, I would have another argument. But all I see is folks celebrating that they are BD exclusive and buying their titles anyway. This was a tough argument to get around.

People complain about the Fox pricing all the time.

Consider how successful the recent Amazon sale was. That was mainly because people jumped at the opportunity to get the Fox titles at sub $20.

Perhaps you can use the Amazon sale as leverage?

Gary

P.S. Seems we have a traditional retail battle: Sales v. every day low prices.

amirm

03-23-07, 11:23 AM

People complain about the Fox pricing all the time.

Consider how successful the recent Amazon sale was. That was mainly because people jumped at the opportunity to get the Fox titles at sub $20.

Perhaps you can use the Amazon sale as leverage?

Gary
They dismiss special sales (I have already tried :)). And they dismiss complaints with no action. What they don't dismiss is people not buying the titles. I have not seen any boycutting of Fox titles. Nor do I see reviewers telling people to not buy the title after they are done reviewing it because the MSRP is too high.

Again, please note that we are good to go with Universal. It is just a matter of who else we can convince.

rover2002

03-23-07, 11:34 AM

Hi Amirm,
Could you shed some light on why HD-DVD has not launched in Hong Kong/Korea/Taiwan, ect?
Is it due to movie distribution rights or something completely different? Hopefully its time for one of your long replys :) as i would love to hear the reasons behind it.
Thx
Will.

Nick Graham

03-23-07, 12:09 PM

I for one essentially boycott Fox titles - I will only buy them used or if they are offered at a steep discount (ie the Amazon sales). I picked up Kingdom of Heaven at the Amazon sale. It is a title I wanted badly, but refused to pay $30-$35 for it...until the Amazon sale I just figured I would not be owning it till Fox stopped ripping us off.

Children of Men was one of my favorite films of last year, but I don't see myself buying it until I find it used. I bought the Blu version of The Departed due to the price discrepancy as well (I later found a used copy for $25 that I would have purchased had I not already bought the Blu version). I waited to purchase Hollywoodland until I found it used for $19.99. I also plan on purchasing The Good Shepherd and The Fountain, but I won't be doing so until I find them used or steeply discounted ($25 or less). The next time they rebuff your suggestions on a special sale ala Amazon, perhaps you can ask them how much profit they see from the titles that myself and many others (check the used auctions on eBays) are purchasing used due to being unwilling to pay $35 for a movie.

Azumi

03-23-07, 12:16 PM

But yes, I agree with your suggestion and will continue to speak on your behalf to studios.

hi Amir,

In that case, would you be willing to pass along to Warner these concerns?

As you know, the Matrix announcement has generated a lot of controvery. A lot of people understand the technical reasons behind the delay of the BD versions, and they also understand that delaying the HD DVD versions wouldn't be fair for their customers.

Nevertheless, one cannot dispel the feeling that Warner doesn't treat both formats on equal ground, no matter what their marketers might say in public. The Matrix annoncement is only a minor straw that adds up to a string of other letdowns (barebone audio, video encodes not optimized, anemic release schedules...).

Therefore, it would be great to have, once and for all, Warner's point of view on the following questions:

1 - Would Warner be willing to check with consumers and retailers and, if there's a demand, release "barebone" versions of the Matrix trilogy on BD, and then do a double dip when BD-J is up and running?

2 - Would they agree to include at least one uncompressed PCM track (or even their "dreaded" DTS) to "equalize" the titles that get DD+ tracks on HD DVD?

3 - For their high profile releases, can they provide separate video encodes and fully optimize them for BD?

4 - How about cathing up with titles already out in HD DVD and that don't require specific BD-J treatment? Can Warner provide us with a schedule more specific than a "somewhere in 2007" and then commit to it?

5 - If Warner feels that the BD users aren't treated equally, would they agree to release a few titles with a few month's exclusive window for BD, in order to make up for the inconveniences?

6 - In most countries in continental Europe, Warner's BD (and HD DVD's as well) are expensive, and a Warner catalog release costs 5 € more than a Fox catalog title, and 10 € more than a Columbia one. Could they harmonize their street prices in both continents?

Amir, I would perfectly understand that you would disagree with some of those questions. But there's no one else around with a direct link to them. I'd very appreciate it if you could pass them along to Warners (hopefully, other people might have some other questions) and have someone address them. This would immensely help people understand Warner's points of view on Blu-ray.

Jazar

03-23-07, 01:02 PM

I have a question for the BD insiders. When can we expect BD profile 1.1 discs to enter the market? When can we expect BD profile 2.0 discs to enter the market?

joeydoo

03-23-07, 01:31 PM

Hi Amirm
Are there any plans in the current or future updates to have the media centre remote, that comes with the HDDVD drive, to open that drive instead of the 360's internal one? Discs are switched in and out of that drive much more often. I know it's a little thing and you have to be at the drive to put a disc in any way but it seems to me that if there is to be an eject button, it might as well open the drive the remote is intended for.

Also have/are you considering making DVD or HDDVD playback resume-able. For instance the ability to press stop and have that bring the blades up instead of the logo picture.
Then maybe you might play a game or whatever and then there is still a "resume" button where the DVD/HDDVD open/eject is. I realise this is what the bookmarking feature is intended to provide, but that's a fairly clunky, time consuming, way of getting back to where you were.

To all industry insiders....
What are your takes on Blu-Ray and HDDVD titles which are on the "opposing" formats in other territories. I read that 'The Prestige' has a Blu-Ray encode which looks amazing and I was a little miffed I couldn't get it as I don't have a Blu-Ray player. Then I see that Warner Bros release it in Europe next month. It should be interesting comparing them and so on. What's the feeling in the Blu-Ray camp on this?
Plus how do you think the lack of regioning all round, vs. DVD, will impact sales in the next few years?
HDDVD is bigger in Europe currently, mostly due to the delayed PS3, but also because loads and loads of 360 HDDVD drive owners are buying discs from the states.... which they have to because of a severe lack of releases. What will happen if there is a big in-balance of popularity between the formats in different territories? Would this be considered a problem?

Thanks in advance guys :)

dialog_gvf

03-23-07, 01:43 PM

They dismiss special sales (I have already tried ).

What serious consumer product company dismisses data from sales?! :confused:

I have not seen any boycutting of Fox titles. Nor do I see reviewers telling people to not buy the title after they are done reviewing it because the MSRP is too high.

Boycotting? I would agree there is nothing organized or extremely vocal. But, certainly many, many people have stated they don't buy Fox titles because they are too expensive.

For some of us, Fox titles are merely Fox DTheater pricing, which was FAR more consumer friendly than Universal or Dreamworks pricing. But, clearly mass market adoption would require lower prices.

Is there a boycott of HD DVD combos? Or reviewers telling people not to buy those?

The most vocal "boycott" I see brewing is that of TotalHD titles by BD supporters. I suspect HD DVD supporters simply don't have the luxury of boycotting Warner or any particular combo.

Gary

drhill

03-23-07, 02:08 PM

I am not 100% following what you are saying :). But if my understanding is right, yes, there will be some new features to help with this.

You have to remember that it is hard to give a discount on any new game console, when you don't make money on it :). So should there be a new box, the best thing to do is to sell the others or do as I do and use it in another room as a great media extender. You get the media center UI remoted and its existing connections should be more than good enough for any secondary applications.

My biggest grip with video settings is that I want my games at 720p to better take advantage of games that do run at 60fps, and my movies to run at 1080i to take advantage of the added resolution. Running the games at 1080i adds an interlace and a deinterlace to the process as well as losing some temporal resolution. It would just be nicer to have these things separate without manually switching them all the time.

Don't need media center stuff, everything I need is all in one spot. I guess you are saying that the charts that claim MS is making $90 off a premium unit as of now are wrong then? My problem is some of the early adopters are faced with a decision of sinking more money for something that should have been put in initially. No matter what the company line was, HDMI was prolific enough during design time to be included then. We don't really need 1.3, but 1.2 would have been fine for 1080p and pcm audio. Poop happens though. : shrug :

Thanks for answering though.

benwaggoner

03-23-07, 02:18 PM

To all industry insiders....
What are your takes on Blu-Ray and HDDVD titles which are on the "opposing" formats in other territories. I read that 'The Prestige' has a Blu-Ray encode which looks amazing and I was a little miffed I couldn't get it as I don't have a Blu-Ray player. Then I see that Warner Bros release it in Europe next month. It should be interesting comparing them and so on.
Given the HD DVD technical advantages of much better baseline interactivity, lower priced players, and lower priced replication, I think HD DVD does very well when the same content is authored taking advantage of the strengths of both platforms.

It makes me happy when our customers can watch the movies they want. And seeing those money being paid for those imports is also a good data point for studios that haven't yet annouced HD DVD support.

TomsHT

03-23-07, 02:36 PM

Amir, any word on releasses from HBO? I was looking forward to The Band of Brothers when it previously was in the coming soon release section. Has a date been rescheduled yet?

Talkstr8t

03-23-07, 03:20 PM

I have a question for the BD insiders. When can we expect BD profile 1.1 discs to enter the market? When can we expect BD profile 2.0 discs to enter the market?I assume what you mean is discs which rely on features present in the 1.1 or 2.0 profiles? (Discs don't have profiles.) I would expect to see them later this year; Fox has said they expect to release discs utilizing network support in 2007. The issue is the studios need enough players to test the content on to be confident the discs will work on all the players. Today they can test on the PC and on other prototype or pre-released firmware/hardware they have may have access to, but they probably won't be confident until they have three or four different platforms which are fairly close to final product to test across.

- Talk

paidgeek

03-23-07, 03:32 PM

I have a question for the BD insiders. When can we expect BD profile 1.1 discs to enter the market? When can we expect BD profile 2.0 discs to enter the market?

My best guess, look for profile 1.1 discs in the Fall. Profile 2.0 discs possibly by December.

Jazar

03-23-07, 05:09 PM

Thanks to you both! I'm looking forward to the advanced features.

amillians

03-23-07, 05:58 PM

Talk or paid, can either of you confirm that the June 1, 2007 cutover for mandatory Profile 1.1 compatibility has been *formally* moved to October 31, 2007? Parsons was quoted on it, but I'd like to hear it from the horse's mouth, especially since it didn't creep into the last JTC presentation that was published on the BDA website. Thanks.

darinp2

03-23-07, 06:11 PM

paidgeek,

Can you comment on "Ghost Rider" for June 12th and whether it will be the extended cut only, or whether we might see seamless branching used to let people pick which version of the movie they want to see?

Thanks,
Darin

metalsaber

03-23-07, 07:08 PM

Maybe this was asked already, but what was the reason for Warner deciding to go with a Matrix Trilogy lauch (Box Set) rather than release each movie individually.

While I'll probably be picking up the trilogy, wouldn't the steep price keep some people away that might have bought at least the first one (arguablly the best)? Or does Warner believe the demand is so strong that fans will by the trilogy regardless?

I would probably agree with the last as we've been starving lately.

Talkstr8t

03-23-07, 07:52 PM

Talk or paid, can either of you confirm that the June 1, 2007 cutover for mandatory Profile 1.1 compatibility has been *formally* moved to October 31, 2007? Parsons was quoted on it, but I'd like to hear it from the horse's mouthAs official BDA spokesperson Andy is the horse's mouth (so to speak), but I can confirm that BD Video 1.1 support is now a requirement for new players released after October 31st, not June. There probably isn't a huge practical impact here as long as players are released in time for the holidays.

- Talk

Esox50

03-23-07, 08:16 PM

As official BDA spokesperson Andy is the horse's mouth (so to speak), but I can confirm that BD Video 1.1 support is now a requirement for new players released after October 31st, not June. There probably isn't a huge practical impact here as long as players are released in time for the holidays.

- Talk
Talk, I'm a bit confused about the whole "BD-J issue" (again). With all the people running around spreading FUD it's hard to know what's real and what's not, and I'm not even sure BD-J is the issue. Anyway, there are BD-J features out now (like on Chicken Little) and soon on big titles such as Pirates of the Carribean. Yet, we have Warner Bros. claiming lack of BD-J ability is the reason why titles like Batman Begins are not available on BD, and they won't be until later this year.

It's been mentioned by Microsoft and others that to do true PiP on BD, dual video decoders are needed in most cases (though it's possible the PS3 can do it via software due to its immense processing capabilities). These dual video decoders are not present in current players.

So, what is the real issue here? Is it that to launch as soon as possible after HD DVD, manufacturers decided to not put a secondary video deoder in their players b/c BD-J wasn't even ready to allow/produce two streams? Now BD-J is fully functional (right?), but most of the players don't have the hardware to do PiP, so we're waiting now for the hardware side to catch up (and testing to be done on all the players that will be released in the next 6-12 months)?

And, finally, since the PS3 represents the majority of the BD players in use, why don't they/Sony go ahead and do the software solution for PiP (secondary video, whatever you want to call it) on the PS3 and allow the studios to move forth on releasing "enhanced" (or PiP) interactivity?

I hope that makes sense. Basicaly, the studios are saying it's BD-J. Other folks in the industry are saying its a lack of second video decoder. At the same time we hear that the PS3 "could do it" via software, but Sony doesn't seem to be doing that to allow everyone to move on. I don't get it, and I'm totally confused.

Can we get the definitive answer on this Talk (and/or any other insider viewpoints)?

Thanks.

RobertR1

03-23-07, 08:25 PM

Talk,

What promoted this push back? I mean the date has been there for a while but all of a sudden it's pushed back a fair bit.

Digitally challe

03-24-07, 12:29 AM

What are Image Constraint Tokens and what are their purpose? I'd like to get more details because I read somewhere that they would be enacted @2010 or 2012. Your help would be appreciated. -Bill

amirm

03-24-07, 03:10 PM

Talk,

What promoted this push back? I mean the date has been there for a while but all of a sudden it's pushed back a fair bit.
Since Bill has not responded, I will take a shot :).

First, it is instructive to note a post which I bookmarked in December of last year : http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9187409&&#post9187409

Can anybody provide some insight as to: 1) If there is any deadline at all for BD-Live support?

No deadline.

2) If the June '07 deadline for PiP only in in danger of being pushed back?

No discussion whatsoever about this. This shouldn't be a big deal - the Sigma and Broadcom chips have had support for some time.

- Talk

I fell of my chair when I read Talk's response. Not only were there "discussions" at that time, but decision was made to push out the date already (hence the reason for the bookmark). To be honest, I understand their motivation and feel their pain. Producing a second gen machine so close to when they shipped their (much delayed) first gen, was going to be onerous for the hardware companies in BD camp. So it made sense to delay the deadline as to rondeveux with holiday selling season and when they can get new hardware design to power them. Talk’s response was incorrect on another front anyway as the BRCM platform he was talking about, could not handle an HD and an SD stream decode (it could decode only two SD streams, not an SD and HD).

In general, you can say that in HD DVD, we were driven on this front by studios whereas it is clear in DBA, the hardware companies rule (all the studios were later invitees). As an interesting thought exercsise, I suspect if BD format did not exist, we could have faced more resistance in DVD forum and not have interactivity mandatory in HD DVD either! Put another way, if the BD companies in DVD Forum were going to build HD DVD products, I am sure they would have objected to adoption of these features due to their cost/complexity concerns. And to borrow the line from Matrix, if you “really want to cook your noodle,” think that without Disney, we would not have HDi, or Matrix in HD DVD first! :)

amirm

03-24-07, 03:17 PM

What are Image Constraint Tokens and what are their purpose? I'd like to get more details because I read somewhere that they would be enacted @2010 or 2012. Your help would be appreciated. -Bill
ICT is a flag that could be set on disc, to force the player to display the content at quarter of 1080p resolution (about 30% better than DVD) on analog output.

Due to mass revolt against it from members here and others, studios decided to not use it in either format.

My memory is a bit hazy on this so Richard would have to correct me but I recall the 2012 date being the time after which, you cannot build a player with analog output (i.e. analog "sunset"). It is unrelated to ICT I believe.

Nick Graham

03-24-07, 05:23 PM

Talkstr8t

03-24-07, 08:26 PM

Talk, I'm a bit confused about the whole "BD-J issue" (again).
...
So, what is the real issue here? Is it that to launch as soon as possible after HD DVD, manufacturers decided to not put a secondary video deoder in their players b/c BD-J wasn't even ready to allow/produce two streams?It's not a BD-J issue at all. Secondary video was one of the last features added to the Blu-ray specification (perhaps in response to it being part of the HD DVD specification, but I wasn't present at discussions to know the motivation). The BDA put higher mandatory performance requirements on the secondary video, in effect requiring it to support the same specs as primary video (HD DVD has greatly reduced bandwidth requirements for secondary video). As a result the first generation chipsets from Broadcom and Sigma which had already been designed into most of the standalone players were unable to meet these specs, hence the "BD-Video 1.0" profile was permitted until a date by which most thought it would be feasible to produce 1.1 players. More recently, in response to apparent difficulties in meeting the June deadline, the date was pushed back to the end of October.
And, finally, since the PS3 represents the majority of the BD players in use, why don't they/Sony go ahead and do the software solution for PiP (secondary video, whatever you want to call it) on the PS3 and allow the studios to move forth on releasing "enhanced" (or PiP) interactivity?I expect they will (as will the PC-based players). By all indications the PS3 is fully capable of supporting BD-Live requirements. But there are risks in being the only player supporting the new profile; there's a much higher level of confidence all around if there are several players (or at least prototypes) which allow the studios to author content making use of the new profile and provide feedback regarding any bugs or inconsistencies.
Basicaly, the studios are saying it's BD-J. Other folks in the industry are saying its a lack of second video decoder.For Warner I think it's clear the issue is lack of secondary video support, which is really the only feature in IME which can't easily be supported on 1.0 Blu-ray players. To a lesser extent the lack of high-level BD-J authoring tools (allowing non-programmers to develop BD-J applications) has also slowed down those studios unwilling to invest in authoring advance content, but the fact that all of the exclusive Blu-ray studios have released BD-J content indicates BD-J itself isn't the issue.

- Talk

Talkstr8t

03-24-07, 08:29 PM

What promoted this push back? I mean the date has been there for a while but all of a sudden it's pushed back a fair bit.There's always a debate between hardware vendors who want to minimize hardware costs and device complexity versus studios who want the fewest constraints on what features they can provide on the discs. The final specification reflects a compromise between the two camps and a best guess as to what can be achieved by when. Just as it had been expected that Managed Mandatory Copy would be available by now on both formats, hardware and software development realities often don't meet initial forecasts.

amirm

03-24-07, 08:40 PM

Just as it had been expected that Managed Mandatory Copy would be available by now on both formats, hardware and software development realities often don't meet initial forecasts.
What software/hardware realities are you talking about wrt to managed copy?

RichB

03-24-07, 08:46 PM

What software/hardware realities are you talking about wrt to managed copy?

I have noticed that your posts no longer include Mandatory when refering to managed copy. Am I reading too much into that? ;)

- Rich

Talkstr8t

03-24-07, 08:51 PM

No discussion whatsoever about this.I fell of my chair when I read Talk's response. Not only were there "discussions" at that time, but decision was made to push out the date already (hence the reason for the bookmark).When I posted the above last December there had been no discussions in any BDA meetings regarding a proposal to delay the June date, up to and including the Board of Director level. I had literally not heard a single word inside or outside of meetings regarding this proposal. It's apparent now that there had been discussions outside of official BDA meetings, but I had not been privy to any of these. When it came up for a vote I was both surprised and disappointed by the proposal. I was unable to impact the result, however, and I couldn't say anything about it publicly until it was officially discussed. I'm sorry I was unable to be more forthcoming on the issue.
In general, you can say that in HD DVD, we were driven on this front by studios whereas it is clear in DBA, the hardware companies rule (all the studios were later invitees).Note that in all specification bodies, including the BDA, DVD Forum, and elsewhere, much of the real work happens outside the meetings. Just as we see in the US Congress, lobbying and politicking often happens one-on-one so that when a proposal is made the outcome is essentially already known, based on "votes" which have been "locked-up" via these external discussions. Similar, there are hierarchies within organizations. In the BDA the eighteen Board of Director companies deal with many matters which Contributor and Member companies don't have direct input on, and even within the BoD the heavyweight CE companies like Sony, Panasonic, and Philips are more influential than other companies for whom Blu-ray makes up a smaller percentage of their business. There's a similar dynamic in the DVD Forum, where the Steering Committee deals with matters which the general membership doesn't, and you can be assured that Toshiba, Microsoft, and other strategic allies often confer on matters prior to proposals or votes without consulting Sony, Panasonic, or Philips.

Talkstr8t

03-24-07, 08:56 PM

It looks like I'm already beating a dead horse here, but are all the BD player manufacturers not realizing that they are going to have a torrent of angry customers come late this year/early next year who are going to pop in new titles they just bought (from all studios) that support features their players can't use?I believe the issue is being blown out of proportion. Yes, there will be features which won't work the same on all players. Secondary video is the most significant of these. While it's unfortunate, this is the nature of a new hardware format, and is not much different from DVD where newer titles often didn't work on 1G players. In general I believe most consumers willing to spend $1K on an unproven format understand the risks which come with that purchase, both that the format may not survive and that future players will likely cost less and support more features. In addition, it doesn't mean that certain movies simply won't work, it just means that certain bonus features may not be available or will offer reduced features on players not fully supporting BD-Video 1.1 or BD-Live.
This isn't something like DTS support or progressive scan support, this is the "interactivity" that both camps have been using to sell people on jumping into a new format since each format was born.The vast majority of interactivity will work fine. It is similar to DTS; just as movies with DTS soundtracks won't work on DVD players without a DTS decoder (or a receiver which decodes DTS), Blu-ray features requiring network support won't work on players which don't have a network connection.
I'm less than thrilled my PS3 may not be able to perform functions my $300 HD-A1 does flawlesslyAs a PS3 owner, I have every expectation that current PS3's will fully support the BD-Live profile once a firmware update is released to support it.