Industry Insiders Q&A MASTER THREAD [separate thread for Xbox/Add On & PS3] [Text View] - Page 15

ack_bk

04-05-07, 10:46 AM

Hello Amir, Lets shift gears for just abit:).... This was posted in another thread, and since we have had playability problems with some of the recent HD DVD releases, can you look into this? And as always we appreciate your participation!

jimby_99
Member

Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 55

Don't be too hard on Universal
I'll throw my two cents in here. I am a production supervisor on a current HD-DVD and Blu-ray release (NIN), and I went through the process of authoring and manufacturing for both formats, for both the main releases and sampler discs.

There are two problems with making titles for HD-DVD that Blu-ray doesn't have:

1. It's not possible to make a full HD-DVD burn yet to check the entire title; you have to preview the title on an emulator, which does NOT give you the ability to QC in various players. This is a huge disadvantage compared to Blu-ray, where you can make a Blu-ray burn and run it in specially modified production players.

Without the ability to burn check discs, there is virtually no way to do proper QC.

Of course you could do a manufacturing run at the plant for test discs, but for every run that you do, you have to purchase AACS security keys, which cost a bundle, and then you lose a week in the schedule waiting for the discs to be run. Not to mention that some manufacturers have large minimum quantities that make this unbelieveably costly to do.

2. The verifier software that Toshiba is responsible for is (in my opinion) not currently up to the task. For those who don't know what verifier software is...this is the software that is run when the title is received at the manufacturing plant to verify that the authoring is "legal" and to the specification. It's meant to catch specification-related bugs in the authoring BEFORE the disc is replicated.

I had a issue on one series of HD-DVDs that we ran at a well-known replicator that passed the verifier, but would not play on the Toshiba A1 player. In fact, it caused the player to require a reboot after the disc was inserted into the player. This is completely unacceptable for verifier software, and Toshiba is mostly is responsible for this piece. My company ended up eating part of the cost of a replication run because of this problem.

So I wouldn't be too hard on Universal as a lot of this stuff is probably beyond their control.

Amir, know you are a busy guy, but there are many of us interested in hearing your take on the above when you have time.

Thanks!

wnorris

04-05-07, 11:40 AM

Amir, and all insiders contributing...THANK YOU for this wonderful resource. There's nothing better to a consumer than knowing somebody's got your back.

The 360 is advertised as being the solution for the @home media center, able to play HD video @ 1080p amongst other wonderful things. But apparently 1080p is a relative term.

The WMV-HD Showcase offers oodles of 1080p video clips, which are just dandy for 360 playback. Well, 1440x1080p. I suppose it's still 1080p. Due to the aspect ratio and "antiquated" codec profiles used for encoding these clips, the average BR is about 8mpbs from what I've seen.

I've created many WMVs encoded using WVC1 @1920x1080, and the average bitrate is ~17mbps. My expensive monster can handle them, but i'd rather have them on the big screen in a different room. The 360 cannot handle them, and I'm quite positive it's not a network issue (it's wired and 100mpbs full). So my question is twofold:

What is the maximum bitrate the 360 can handle? I've heard from various places that the HD-DVD drive provides some assistance for the decoding process of a disc, but what exactly is going on in there? This issue's been bugging me for a while, and after some testing it appears the highest reliable bitrate i can provide the 360 is ~12mbps. I don't know what the average bitrate of an HD-DVD is, but I'm sure it's much higher. Thanks again for all the helpful info!

Amir,

On a similar topic, is it possible to damage the Xbox360 by playing self-encoded WMV files at high(er) bitrates than normal (downloaded) WMV? I had a 360 that I purchased in November and had used it for less than 80 hours. It had worked perfectly, without a hiccup. I have all my CD's ripped as MP3's on a home server, and used the 360 to play those files remotely. I had played a few games with no problems. I decided to try streaming movies too. Basically turn the 360 into a movie "jukebox". I ripped some DVD's and rencoded them as WMV file using Windows Media Encoder, between 5-8 Mps total bitrate, depending on the source material.

Well, the first video I did started playing back fine. It made it through the opening movie credits when the image froze (the 360 locked up). I powered down, back up, and got the red ring of death. The 360 no longer functioned. I was eventually told a failed video card and got a replacement unit.

A few weeks later, I got my replacement. I played the replacement for a few days with games, MP3's, downloaded video, etc. and it worked fine. I fired up a different WMV encoded DVD and it started playing fine. But about 35 seconds into the movie, the screen went black (the power light was still on and one green segment). The 360 didn't seem to be responding, so I powered off and back on. Red ring of death again. Another return and apparently another failed video card. Another replacement, but now I'm afraid to even try streaming WMV video.

I find it odd that both consoles worked perfectly until I tried to stream WMV video to them, and then they suddenly fail. Is there something in a 5-8 Mbs stream (or higher) that could somehow damage the 360?

benwaggoner

04-05-07, 11:45 AM

The 360 is advertised as being the solution for the @home media center, able to play HD video @ 1080p amongst other wonderful things. But apparently 1080p is a relative term.

The WMV-HD Showcase offers oodles of 1080p video clips, which are just dandy for 360 playback. Well, 1440x1080p. I suppose it's still 1080p. Due to the aspect ratio and "antiquated" codec profiles used for encoding these clips, the average BR is about 8mpbs from what I've seen.

I've created many WMVs encoded using WVC1 @1920x1080, and the average bitrate is ~17mbps. My expensive monster can handle them, but i'd rather have them on the big screen in a different room. The 360 cannot handle them, and I'm quite positive it's not a network issue (it's wired and 100mpbs full). So my question is twofold:

What is the maximum bitrate the 360 can handle? I've heard from various places that the HD-DVD drive provides some assistance for the decoding process of a disc, but what exactly is going on in there? This issue's been bugging me for a while, and after some testing it appears the highest reliable bitrate i can provide the 360 is ~12mbps. I don't know what the average bitrate of an HD-DVD is, but I'm sure it's much higher. Thanks again for all the helpful info!
The HD DVD drive is just a drive - all the decoding and processing is in the Xbox 360. So the hardware itself can certainly decode VC-1 @ 30 Mbps peak and doing a lot of other stuff at the same time. However, there are different optimizations for HD DVD and WMV.

The real limit for WMV playback isn't the average bitrate, but the peak bitrate. What mode are you encoding in? If it's VBR, make sure you're using VBR (Peak Limited) and set a reasonable cap. Maybe start with 20 Mbps?

Bear in mind that the peak rate also determines what your network can do. If your average is 17 but your peaks are 50, that can also have trouble on a 100Base-T network if there's other stuff going on.

benwaggoner

04-05-07, 11:50 AM

On a similar topic, is it possible to damage the Xbox360 by playing self-encoded WMV files at high(er) bitrates than normal (downloaded) WMV? I had a 360 that I purchased in November and had used it for less than 80 hours. It had worked perfectly, without a hiccup. I have all my CD's ripped as MP3's on a home server, and used the 360 to play those files remotely. I had played a few games with no problems. I decided to try streaming movies too. Basically turn the 360 into a movie "jukebox". I ripped some DVD's and rencoded them as WMV file using Windows Media Encoder, between 5-8 Mps total bitrate, depending on the source material.

Well, the first video I did started playing back fine. It made it through the opening movie credits when the image froze (the 360 locked up). I powered down, back up, and got the red ring of death. The 360 no longer functioned. I was eventually told a failed video card and got a replacement unit.

A few weeks later, I got my replacement. I played the replacement for a few days with games, MP3's, downloaded video, etc. and it worked fine. I fired up a different WMV encoded DVD and it started playing fine. But about 35 seconds into the movie, the screen went black (the power light was still on and one green segment). The 360 didn't seem to be responding, so I powered off and back on. Red ring of death again. Another return and apparently another failed video card. Another replacement, but now I'm afraid to even try streaming WMV video.

I find it odd that both consoles worked perfectly until I tried to stream WMV video to them, and then they suddenly fail. Is there something in a 5-8 Mbs stream (or higher) that could somehow damage the 360?
We've got a whole lot of people playing back 12 Mbps peak HD WMV files via Xbox Live Markplace all the time without these kinds of issues, and I play HD .WMV files off DVD-R on my retail 360 all the time.

I think you just had an unpleasent coincidence. If it happens a third time, though, send me a copy of that WMV file! Or send it to me first, and I'll try it on mine first :).

kornesque

04-05-07, 12:00 PM

Ben,

I can't thank you enough for this information. I never even thought to cap the bitrate - my files are VBR, but i never modified my profiles to limit the peak. I'll try a sample and let you know. Cheers!

benwaggoner

04-05-07, 12:16 PM

I can't thank you enough for this information. I never even thought to cap the bitrate - my files are VBR, but i never modified my profiles to limit the peak. I'll try a sample and let you know. Cheers!
Cool, let me know how that goes.

I've been lobbying to drop the non-peak constrained VBR mode for just that reason - there's really never a case where you want an unbound peak, and you can set it arbitrarily high for easy content on powerful devices.

Also, if you want to do random access in HD content, you want to have more frequent keyframes. Every 2-4 seconds is a good range (FYI, HD DVD uses 0.6 sec).

IndifferentBozo

04-05-07, 12:52 PM

I think someone in the BD PR group made an interesting choice in giving a dramatic name to what amounts to standard PR/marketing activities. Would this even be a topic of discussion if it had not been given a name appropriate for a Godzilla sequel?

Thanks for the response. To answer your question, Hydra it would have caught my attention no matter the name. They psychology of advertising/PR is facinating, particulaly the idea of viral marketing/advertising.

One clarification though, do you mean by what you stated above that (1) Hydra is just a standard marketing effort (in other words, advertising, etc), or that (2) this type of viral marketing (people posting in forums promoting a product without disclosing their affliation) is standard PR/Marketing?

Thanks

Dahlsim

04-05-07, 01:01 PM

I think someone in the BD PR group made an interesting choice in giving a dramatic name to what amounts to standard PR/marketing activities. Would this even be a topic of discussion if it had not been given a name appropriate for a Godzilla sequel?

I very much enjoy your paricipation for instance in this forum, however it's deemed very important by the board that your affiliation is noted in your signature/profile. If it's important here to show paid affiliation that could color opinions why wouldn't it be important for paid internet marketers?

Respectfully paidgeek, are you implying that you see no problem (ethical) which such paid undercover marketing proliferating across the internet?

RichB

04-05-07, 01:22 PM

BD Insider,

What is up with the "Brothers Grimm". Leaving the movie itself out of it (not my cup of tea), I expected the image quality to be high from reviews I have read. The black level was inconsistent and their was tons, I mean tons of macroblocking in the darker areas. Reviewers did not mention that at all. I also watched the Transporter 2 which looked fantastic. I am using PowerDVD 7.3, is this a problem with the source material or do you think it is my player?

- Rich

amirm

04-05-07, 01:29 PM

He was responding to Amir's "if there is interest here..."
As am I, so I will put it in the form of an official question.
Amir, can you please expound on multi-headed sea dragons and what you might know about them?
There is currently a pretty quickly growing thread about it, so I would say there is interest.
Wow, that is very high level of interest!

My reaction to this program was actually different than what people seem to worry about. Yes, having more shills here would be bad. But you all are excellent in weeding them out. Few can show up here and pretend to speak “our language” within two days of indoctrination. Certainly AVS is too sophisticated for cheap games like this. If you keep someone like me on my toes, I know the shills stand little chance against you all :). And the internet has “lose lips” like there is no tomorrow. Should folks find these people, the damage is more than any good people think they do.

The thing I was surprised about is to what extent they understand (or don’t understand in this case) what the Internet is about, and who is part of and who is not. Unfortunately, some of this detail is not in Alex’s post so I can’t be too specific. But suffice it to say, the broad brush they are using to paint here might cause them trouble. Professional marketing people have little understanding of the dynamics here and elsewhere and it shows from the list of the targets they have. And there is so much you can try to market and influence bloggers and such before they lose their credibility and have the whole thing backfire on you as a result.

Amir,
Any comment about the HD DVD promotion group engaging in such behavior (phase hydra)?
Thanks,
Robert.
No. We have no program like this. We talk to bloggers and editors of web sites like we do with trade magazine, analysts, etc. If they request interviews, we talk to them. If we are in an area, we give them a chance to come and hear our message as we do with the others just listed.

We don’t plant shills. We don’t pay random people to come and say good things about HD DVD or bad about the other guy. This kind of stuff gets discovered one day and does far more damage than good in my opinion.

I will finish this post with a great line I learned from the speech writer for one of our presidents on how to deal with embarrassing revelations. His advice was, “tell it all, tell it now!” The longer you wait and the less you say, the more things will start to smell like week old fish :). Of course, it is remarkable how many people ignore such sage advice....

amirm

04-05-07, 01:54 PM

Hello Amir, Lets shift gears for just abit:).... This was posted in another thread, and since we have had playability problems with some of the recent HD DVD releases, can you look into this? And as always we appreciate your participation!
Would be happy to. As always, one must keep in mind that not everyone in the ecosystem knows all the answers and capabilities which might exist. This is especially so of the smaller houses who may have less access to people making tools and such.

I'll throw my two cents in here. I am a production supervisor on a current HD-DVD and Blu-ray release (NIN), and I went through the process of authoring and manufacturing for both formats, for both the main releases and sampler discs. There are two problems with making titles for HD-DVD that Blu-ray doesn't have:

1. It's not possible to make a full HD-DVD burn yet to check the entire title; you have to preview the title on an emulator, which does NOT give you the ability to QC in various players. This is a huge disadvantage compared to Blu-ray, where you can make a Blu-ray burn and run it in specially modified production players.

Without the ability to burn check discs, there is virtually no way to do proper QC.
Well, we have one better and that is, burning HD DVD compatible DVD-Rs. You can easily test your interactivity and navigation using abbreviated (movie) content and do a ton of QC this way, with substantially less cost than burning BD-R discs. Yes, you can’t test the entire movie content this way but I am not sure who would want to trust a BD-R discs as their final QC either if the worry is that replication could screw things up.

2. The verifier software that Toshiba is responsible for is (in my opinion) not currently up to the task. For those who don't know what verifier software is...this is the software that is run when the title is received at the manufacturing plant to verify that the authoring is "legal" and to the specification. It's meant to catch specification-related bugs in the authoring BEFORE the disc is replicated.
Per above, substantial amount of testing (including 100% of the interactivity) can be done using real hardware if one wants. But at some point, you have to replicate real content on final AACS discs to be sure. There is no getting around that.

In general, when it comes to tool support, we get much higher praise than the other format. And there are other tools beside Toshiba now (e.g. Sonic). Here is what another insider working at a larger shop said a while ago on similar topic: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9500194&&#post9500194

Now there's a loaded question [which format is easier to author for]. The short answer; HD is easier than BD. The long answer is much more involved.

On the HD side, standard content authoring is identical to SD authoring. You're really just putting better A/V and menus into the same process. If you move into advanced content, HDi, it's night and day difference from standard content authoring. All the control is moved from preset commands to JavaScript and XML. It's very similar it web based programming, so the transition is a bit easier for most.

On the BD side, there are also two choices also. The simpler of the two, BDMV, has many similarities to SD authoring with different names. It takes some getting use to but makes sense once you're familiar with it. The biggest problem is the graphics for the menus. No images can overlap, so any menu with a curve becomes a hassle to slice up; the images are limited to 8-bit(256 colors); and each "page" of a menu must have an associated palette. The graphics people really find it frustrating.

Now, when moved to BDJ, things move in a whole other direction. It becomes more like an HDi environment where you have the freedom to do what you please. The image constraints from above are no longer an issue. The issue that does arise very quickly is the move to a full-blown Java environment. It no longer becomes an easy task to migrate someone to BDJ, unless they have a programming background. I can see it limiting BDJ to larger facilities than can afford to hire someone if someone is not available in house already. I would image smaller authoring houses sticking to BDMV for quite some time.

The above isn't what made me say HD is easier than BD. What has made me are two very important things; support and testing. Microsoft as a whole; not just Amir, Ben, and others here, has been extremely helpful. Sony, on the other hand, doesn't seem to want to be as helpful. I've tried several times to get the proper communication channels setup to further what I am doing and their own format, but to no avail. And second, I can't get reliable playback with BD. What do I mean by that?

Of course when you are developing anything new, there is a lot testing done. The testing has gone much smoother on the HD side. Microsoft has provided some simple, yet extremely useful tools, to debug HDi. Toshiba also has modified hardware available for the authoring environment. Both greatly increase efficiency. I wish things paralleled on the BD side, specifically BDJ. The code debugging isn't all that bad, but testing the code in a player or emulator is a nightmare. Just today, I tried some pretty basic BDJ in 5 different scenarios. There was one software emulator, one software player, and 3 stand-alone players. One crashed completely; two only processed about half the code, not the same half; and two others handled the code correctly, but were slightly inconsistent. From an authoring standpoint, it's not good to say the least.

I never said the answer would be short or pretty. :)

Nox

04-05-07, 02:51 PM

...and I play HD .WMV files off DVD-R on my retail 360 all the time.

Ben,

I play HD wmv files on my 360 off DVD-R as well. I also stream the same files to the 360 through my MCE PC. I did find, however, that the same movie files when played off the discs don't play as smoothly as when streamed. For example, when a scene pans across the screen, the wmv file played off the disc stutters, but when streamed, it's perfectly smooth as it should be.

What could be causing this? I'm sure there's enough bandwidth reading from a DVD for HD wmv files.

Also, any chance on Microsoft offering native DVR-MS support to play them directly off discs on the 360?

amirm

04-05-07, 03:01 PM

ack_bk

04-05-07, 03:29 PM

paidgeek

04-05-07, 05:54 PM

Thanks for the response. To answer your question, Hydra it would have caught my attention no matter the name. They psychology of advertising/PR is facinating, particulaly the idea of viral marketing/advertising.

One clarification though, do you mean by what you stated above that (1) Hydra is just a standard marketing effort (in other words, advertising, etc), or that (2) this type of viral marketing (people posting in forums promoting a product without disclosing their affliation) is standard PR/Marketing?

Thanks

As sometimes happens on the forum, a bit of information has spun up into something more than it really is.

I did a bit of research and "Phase Hydra" is not the name of any project, but rather was just the title given to a presentation. There is no proposal in this presentation, nor any other promotions committee activity to use anonymous forum participants to promote Blu-ray.

cyberbri

04-05-07, 06:08 PM

Actually Amir, one of the tactics such firms use is recruiting existing users who are well respected in the community with a long history within the web circle. So you get a mix of new sign ons who spam "BR FTW LOL!" endlessly and others who are knowledgable yet still being paid to promote while hiding their affiliation. While the spammers create a false sense of greater activity and demand, the veteran recruits massage the userbase into seeing things their way. This way they can cover both angles. The whole thing is based on deception and that's really my issue with it.

I know MS has done the same in the past with the Xbox and perhaps other divisions but I'm hoping, as you stated, HD DVD continues to use that "tell it all, tell it now!" approach going forward :)

From my experience (I work at a video game company that has a good relationship with MS), the "existing users" you are talking about are the Microsoft VIPs. This is not hidden or shifty or back-room. The program deals with "key influencers," bloggers, podcasters, and forum posters, and gives them hands-on time, etc. with new games. Just like they would with the press before games are released, etc. Other game companies do this as well, showing off their pre-release games at consumer events, etc. Nintendo sponsors a rock tour in the summers and has their games and systems there for people to try out and tell their friends about. Other parts of the Xbox community are Major Nelson (his blog and podcast) and the Gamerscore blog (parts of Microsoft), and they reach out to the community as MS spokespeople. The success and popularity of Major Nelson was probably the main reason Sony followed suit with Three Speech, a "semi-official" Sony blog.

This is "community" and getting the fans involved and letting them help spread the word about products. Everyone does it. Look at the movie sneak previews with free tickets so people go out and tell their friends and family how great the movie was.

This is in a sense "viral," but still very different from hiring people to say good things about your product without revealing the connection or the fact they are getting paid to post. Like employees of a subwoofer or speaker company posting good things anonymously about the company's products, or negative and/or FUD about an opposing company's product. That is wrong. I hope companies now realize that this is not the way to do things, and that they can be much more effective bringing in actual fans and working together with them.

For example, take the fake "all I want for Xmas is a PSP" blog, traced back to a marketing firm hired by Sony. Instead of coming up with fake fans, they could have come out and said they were Sony, and encouraged people to "do better" than the hokey rap video by submitting their own music/parody videos as a contest to win free PSPs, etc. Nintendo did this officially with a "How Wii Play" myspace page last year where users submitted their own "commercials" for the system.

Sorry for posting out of turn. I guess I'm sort of an insider as I work at a video game company, but I just wanted to say a few things about this issue for clarification.

benwaggoner

04-05-07, 06:55 PM

I play HD wmv files on my 360 off DVD-R as well. I also stream the same files to the 360 through my MCE PC. I did find, however, that the same movie files when played off the discs don't play as smoothly as when streamed. For example, when a scene pans across the screen, the wmv file played off the disc stutters, but when streamed, it's perfectly smooth as it should be.

What could be causing this? I'm sure there's enough bandwidth reading from a DVD for HD wmv files.
What's the peak rate? If the DVD-R wasn't a perfect burn, it might not play back at full speed, causing you to stutter during bitrate peaks

Also, any chance on Microsoft offering native DVR-MS support to play them directly off discs on the 360?
Hmm. I didn't know that it didn't. I'll check.

StevenZ

04-05-07, 07:49 PM

Paid, Talk, etc.

Maybe it got lost in the XBox360 clinic :rolleyes:, but could you take a look at my post from last week (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10173394#post10173394) about BD Profiles this fall and beyond? Thanks.

Jeff Williams

04-05-07, 08:29 PM

It's always killer when Amir quotes you :) . The only sad part is that the quote is still 100% true 3 months later. BD-J is still an issue along different players. Finding a happy medium between them all is getting harder and harder as the interactivity gets more complex.

Rob Zuber

04-05-07, 08:34 PM

Finding a happy medium between them all is getting harder and harder as the interactivity gets more complex.Can you be specific?

bases1616

04-05-07, 08:39 PM

Paul.R.S

04-05-07, 08:46 PM

Thx for the reply re Bad Boys II, PaidGeek.

I noticed word this week at the Bits that Sony is reissuing Starship Troopers on standard def. Might this be a harbinger of an imminent Klendathu attack (read: release of Troopers on BD), perhaps tied to the home vid release of Verhoeven's Black Book?

John Haghighi

04-05-07, 08:59 PM

Are you asking if Toshiba could have wide enough data paths for PCM audio, why didn't we?

If so, the reason is that these are very different engines. In case of Toshiba, they have an A/V subsystem with dedicated processors for such task. The System on a Chip (SoC) on these machines decodes the audio with ready data path to a DAC or HDMI bridge for output. In other words, they are purpose built that way. The 360 is a general purpose computing platform and its data paths were designed differently.

Amir so basically did they even consider redesigning the elite to allow for 5.1 LPCM over HDMI?

Can you confirm whether 5.1 LPCM over HDMI is a hardware limitation on the Elite?

If the PS3 can accomplish being a great gaming platform and a HD playback device why can't the Elite, which I assume was designed after the PS3 accomplish this?

I don't even understand the business decision behind this, why release a new 360 elite without any major upgrades to allow for better optimal HD media disc playback for audio and video?

Is the expectation that Toshiba and whatever other Chinese manufactures are releasing players will carry the market for HD DVD? Why not take advantage of a gaming platform to advance adaptation of HD DVD?

The bottom line is if we are comparing playback of HD media discs on the PS3 vs. the 360 as is today, the 360 gets beat, wouldn't you agree? (I'll hold judgement on the Elite version, but on paper it's not changing much due to the lack of LPCM)

How is MS advancing HD DVD adaptation with the 360 elite?

It seems to me Microsoft is headed towards format neutral and codec specific for HD optical disc playback, is this the case?

amirm

04-05-07, 11:49 PM

AMIRM,

I was wondering is Microsoft going to provide us existing 360 owners with an HDMI cable for our premium or core systems? I would like to experience 1080p and lossless audio from my HD DVD add on.
Unfortunately not. There is just no way to provide such a cable or we would have done that, instead of offering a new version of the machine. I am sorry about that.

amirm

04-06-07, 12:03 AM

Amir so basically did they even consider redesigning the elite to allow for 5.1 LPCM over HDMI?
Yes, we considered this. And I pushed hard. But it just wasn't within the constraints of the project.

Can you confirm whether 5.1 LPCM over HDMI is a hardware limitation on the Elite?
Well, yes. Kind of :). When you are modifying the box, you can of course modify anything including changing the CPU, etc. :). But at some point, you draw the line and where the line was, did not allow for that many channels of uncompressed audio.

If the PS3 can accomplish being a great gaming platform and a HD playback device why can't the Elite, which I assume was designed after the PS3 accomplish this?
Well, the 360 is a fantastic HD playback and gaming device. Don't let people make you think that you need lossless audio to get that experience. You have 1080p video and great sound to go with it. You have a choice of much lower cost consoles than PS3. And with Elite, you get a large hard disk which will do more for you in the form of digital downloads and such, than any incremental audio quality you may think you are missing. And do so at still lower prices than cheaper PS3.

I don't even understand the business decision behind this, why release a new 360 elite without any major upgrades to allow for better optimal HD media disc playback for audio and video?
Because it is not better for 99% of the people out there who would use the machine. To use PCM over HDMI, you have to have an HDMI AVR. What percentage of the gamers have their 360 hooked up to an AVR to begin with, let alone have it sport HDMI? And of that percentage, how many of them think DTS/WMA-Pro at 1.5 mbit/sec is a suboptimal audio experience? You see where I am going with this?

Is the expectation that Toshiba and whatever other Chinese manufactures are releasing players will carry the market for HD DVD? Why not take advantage of a gaming platform to advance adaptation of HD DVD?
Xbox 360 has done a wonderful job promoting and supporting HD DVD. It has superb a/v experience. No, we didn't design it to replace stand-alone devices. We looked at our target market and made decisions appropriately. For $199 you can add HD DVD playback to a console you already own. That is a value offering and support for HD formats which is unmatched by anyone.

The bottom line is if we are comparing playback of HD media discs on the PS3 vs. the 360 as is today, the 360 gets beat, wouldn't you agree? (I'll hold judgement on the Elite version, but on paper it's not changing much due to the lack of LPCM)
Beat by what? If I played a lossless PCM track and a DTS at 1.5 mbit/sec, I assure you that most people could not tell the difference. Again, go and do a survey and see how many people think the audio on their DVD system is bad. You won't find many people.

How is MS advancing HD DVD adaptation with the 360 elite?
By supporting HDMI, now we also have a digital video path. So to the extent we were successful before, we are even more successful now.

It seems to me Microsoft is headed towards format neutral and codec specific for HD optical disc playback, is this the case?
Absolutely, positively not. Let me repeat that again: absolutely positively not :). We are 1000% behind HD DVD. Let there be no doubt about that. PCM audio has nothing to do with the HD format choice anyway. We have always wanted our customers to have a choice here. If they don’t have a need for HD optical, they can buy the base system. If they want HD DVD, then they can buy the option. If they want BD, well, there is something wrong with their thinking so we are not going to cater to that (just kidding! :D).

IndifferentBozo

04-06-07, 12:07 AM

As sometimes happens on the forum, a bit of information has spun up into something more than it really is.

I did a bit of research and "Phase Hydra" is not the name of any project, but rather was just the title given to a presentation. There is no proposal in this presentation, nor any other promotions committee activity to use anonymous forum participants to promote Blu-ray.

Thanks very much for the response, its great to have insiders here on the forum to cut through the fog. Reading between the lines a bit and asking one last question just to wrap it up: is it true that that the presentation entitled Phase Hydra related to marketing blu ray, but did not relate to the use of forum participants to promote blu ray?

I don't mean to be redundant, but that's basically the gist of your responses, I think.

amirm

04-06-07, 12:14 AM

Amir,

Looking at this graph:
http://www.eproductwars.com/asinsaleshistory.cfm?db=dvd&asin=B000N6TX22

It looks like Amazon has been out of stock for "Children of Men" since 3/30/07 after receiving only a limited supply initially. Do you know if this is related to the playback issues, and when HD DVD owners can expect to see Amazon get more stock in? I believe Amazon has told several people 4-6 weeks. In addition, do you know if there will be a press release with regards to the playback issues?
I have no personal knowledge one way or the other. I did however post the phone number for Universal to call in the thread within the HD DVD section. So people should feel free to call them there if they have problems with their discs.

mentho

04-06-07, 12:16 AM

Yes, we considered this. And I pushed hard. But it just wasn't within the constraints of the project.

It's good to hear you made an effort! So if discussions about another 360 hardware revision come up, can we assume you'll push for LPCM and maybe even HDMI 1.3?

It's great to have an advocate. :)

JadedRaverLA

04-06-07, 12:52 AM

Now that all the "Elite" 360 questions are out of the way, I was hoping I could ask any Sony insiders a few quick questions:

1) Do any of you have any idea when the PS3 update for upscaling DVDs is expected? Also, there was much talk before the system's release of the ability to play Divx/Xvid files. Is this possibly coming in the near future?

2) How close are we to seeing "second-gen" 4x or 6x speed Blu-ray PC burners?

and

3) The new Sony receivers are starting to hit stores, and despite the advertising and earlier press release, the STR-DG710 model doesn't seem to actually accept LPCM 5.1 or 7.1 audio. It only is processing 2 channels. No one seems to have the 810 or 910 receiver, yet, so its unclear if the issue is exclusively with the 710. I don't have this model but reports are coming in to messageboards everywhere with people unable to get LPCM sound working despite all efforts.

Anyway, I understand if any of these can't be answered, but thanks for your time.

paidgeek

04-06-07, 02:10 AM

Thanks very much for the response, its great to have insiders here on the forum to cut through the fog. Reading between the lines a bit and asking one last question just to wrap it up: is it true that that the presentation entitled Phase Hydra related to marketing blu ray, but did not relate to the use of forum participants to promote blu ray?

I don't mean to be redundant, but that's basically the gist of your responses, I think.

Part of the presentation in question covers the importance of attending to all the communications on Blu-ray, including forums like this one. It does not recommend doing so anonymously. Others have participated here from Pioneer and possibly other BD companies in the past. Maybe they can be coerced into making occasional posts again.

maxleung

04-06-07, 02:53 AM

It's very disappointing that the new 360 won't support full PCM audio.

I assume it will pass through TrueHD and DTS-HD MA unmolested to the receiver over the HDMI connection, right?

Razter

04-06-07, 06:49 AM

amirm: Have you seen Warners VC-1 transfer of "The Prestige"?
Should we expect it to be better than Disneys BD?

kidman

04-06-07, 07:21 AM

First of all, thank you all insiders for answering our questions.
As a Xbox 360 owner I'd especially like to thank Amir for being such a great inside source (if i may say so).
There's only one thing that i'm wondering about. hdmi.
How come 360 Elite has older version of it than ps3?
Amir: You said that it's all because 1.3 specs weren't final, so.. were they final when they made ps3? Was 360 elite designed before ps3?
I know You can't say some things, but I'm still really interested in whole story:)
It's not that i need hdmi, it's just that the whole situation is a bit weird to me (simple 360 owner, i don't have a lot of technical knowledge).
Thanks in advance for any answer:)
p.s.
I'm sorry, for any typing or grammar mistakes;)

jeffstarr

04-06-07, 09:16 AM

Well, we have one better and that is, burning HD DVD compatible DVD-Rs. You can easily test your interactivity and navigation using abbreviated (movie) content and do a ton of QC this way, with substantially less cost than burning BD-R discs.

Hi Amir,

First of all, thankyou for you continued support and posting in these forums - you seem to get a bit of a hammering sometimes, yet this hasn't stopped you from participating, and I think we are all greatful for that.

With regards to you above comments, as you may or may not be aware there has been some discussion on the MSDN forums reccently concerning DVD-R playback issues, which can be summarised two-fold:

1. Toshiba's HD-A2 & E2 players have 'issues' playing back DVD-Rs with Advanced Content.

2. 1st Gen players offered better performance for playback than 2nd gen players in HDi / Advanced content.

Would you, or any HD DVD insider be able to look into / comment / flag these issues with the relevant people / companies?

- Can Toshiba look into fixing this compatibility issue please?

- Do the newer Broadcom / Sigma SOC offerings address this performance issue, bringing levels back up to / exceeding the 1st gen players. I understand that you can't discuss which manufacturers will be using your chips and when, but is this something that the right 'people' are aware of and are aiming to address?

amirm

04-06-07, 02:04 PM

If you honestly think I'd be wasting my time, which I apparently am :D , complaining about the audio and lip sync issues with the 360 because someone told me lossless audio sounds better your mistaken, I've been listening to MLP since it's been available. In fact I'd venture to say while this may hold true for a majority of 360 users, your not going to find the average 360 crowd on these forums. (realize I need to make these arguments while I have my hearing, the older I get, I am sure I'll eventually be fine with MP3 audio).
Let me say that we have fixed all the lip sync issues reported. So there should be no concerns about that in general. I too have been listening to MLP since it came out and hold my ears to high regard :). But see more below on this topic on why this may not be relevant.

Regardless of what you and Ben preach about what is acceptable, or excellent audio for some % the marketing group came up with, I am still trying to understand why you guys keep promoting on this forum that HD DVD requires advanced codecs for audio and video in players and the other camp does not, and that MS is 1000% behind the format, yet MS's own product can't even provide full output of lossless audio (and this is round 2 for the 360)? Is that really fully supporting the format?
We are getting argumentative :). So I am not going to drill deep. But if you feel that lack of lossless audio on 360 HD DVD playback means we are about to close shop and go put in a BD player, well, I don’t follow that logic. Because, after all, if we did a BD player, it would likewise lack lossless audio and where would that leave us? :p Really, I enjoy nothing more than people mistaking our intentions with this product launch. Keeping our enemies confused is “a good thing.” :).

Wow so we should suffer because most of the 360 world is tone def?
Well, I am sorry but I don’t know how else to say this. But turns out 100% of the 360 world is indeed “tone deaf”. Come to think of it, 100% of PS3 owners are tone deaf too. Actually it is worse than that. 100% of the people reading this forum are tone deaf! The only entity reading this post that is not tone deaf is the computer processing these words. The rest of us are human and by definition, and thankfully so, are tone deaf! And I am not talking about tones outside of the human hearing range. I am talking about all of us being deaf to tones within the human hearing range! In the words of the Oracle in the Matrix movies, “if this don’t cook your noodles,” I don’t know what will. :) Now that I got your attention, let’s inject some science into this topic.

Research in 1950s and 1960s created some interesting data which has become the foundation of audio compression and why we are able to compress audio as much as we do without you knowing what we are taking out. I won’t drill into the full science but let me touch on one aspect of it called “masking effect.”

Let’s do this with an example. You know how your projector fan can be heard when your audio system is off but you don’t hear it when the audio is on and especially when it gets louder? Does the fan stop making that sound as the movie explosions come? If not, why doesn’t your ear hear it? What if your projector was dead silent but the same fan noise existed in the background of the said explosions? You still wouldn’t hear it, right? The tones are there, right? What if you encoded the movie now in MLP/TrueHD? Do you think if I examined the PCM samples in that encode, I would find the noise in there? Of course it would be there. But how come you don’t hear it? And if you don’t hear it, are we not wasting bits on it? Well, we are :).

How about this example. I am sure if you are a high-end audiophile you can easily tell the difference between 128k MP3 and the CD. But don’t feel too good yet as this was a trick statement and not praise for your hearing ability :). The data rate of uncompressed CD is 1.4 mbit/sec. So in representing it at 128kbps, we are compressing it at 11:1 compression ratio. Saying this another way, we have thrown away 91% of the audio and that remaining 9% is what you are hearing! That’s right. Only 9% of the original is left. So do you think your ears are detecting that 91% of the audio that is taken out? Or that just a bit of the quality is missing? You see where I am going with this? MP3 is an old codec and pretty inefficient by modern standards yet, at such a high compression ratio, despite your ear missing out on a lot of “tones” your perception as an audiophile is that substantially less quality/“tones” is taken out than the number suggests.

The concept should be clear by now. We convert the audio to frequency spectrum. Within that domain, we then look at the intensity of various tones. If a faint tone is next to a louder one, we can safely reduce its resolution and your ear simply is not going to know the difference. What you will continue to hear is the louder sound, and the fact that the fainter one is at lower resolution (or gone altogether) is immaterial.

So far, we have been talking about one channel’s worth of data. In movie sound we get lucky in other ways. Since you are not listening to your movies with headphones, the masking effect becomes even more helpful in that we could have a loud sound in one channel, masking fainter sound in others. In the explosion example above, you simply are not going to hear the faint ambiance in the background coming from the rear channel and we could take even more “tones” out those sources without you knowing the difference.

Now let’s look at this from another angle. According to Dolby (and our tests), using 5.1 audio, one can approach nearly 3:1 compression ratio with lossless TrueHD without taking any tones out. For 16-bit, 48khz, 5.1 audio, this amounts to 1.5 mbit/sec or so data rate. So if we used a lossy codec like DTS/DD+ and encoded the soundtrack at 1.5 mbit/sec, we are operating in a domain where basically little data needs to be thrown out at all as the data rate is the same as lossless mode (all lossy codecs have a “back end” that is lossless)! We would be basically cruising, applying the lightest amount of compression and most of the time, not compressing anything at all. Indeed, this was the foundation of DTS algorithm where it operates in lossless mode even though we think of it as a lossy codec. When pushed DTS does switch to lossy encoding but at 1.5 mbit/sec it just doesn’t go into this domain often.

Unfortunately, the lossy algorithm in DTS is not as sophisticate as what we use in modern audio codecs and as such, its quality suffers at half rate (760 kbps). And hence the reason we are able to do so well against it with WMA Pro operating at same data rate. But with the output of 360 running at 1.5 mbit/sec, even this is not a concern.

So as you see, the argument is not a simple one even when one looks at just one psychoacoustic technique in compressing audio.

The only people who are truly bothered by audio compression are the people trained in that science. Years of training their ears and understanding of compression science allows them to “search” and find quantization noise. These skills do not come easily though and as such, even the best audiophiles lack them and will not be able to find distortion in mildly compressed audio. But despite falling into the class of trained compression listeners after doing years of codec testing, I still enjoy compressed movie sound. I find that unlike when I am listening to music, the visual stimulus is high enough that I simply don’t tear up the audio samples like I do with music. As such, despite having more expensive audio equipment than most people deserve to own, I am not swayed by arguments where people say they listen to MLP music, and as such, nothing but lossless audio meets their needs for movies. If this is not the case for skilled listeners like me, it surely is not true for 99% of the audiophiles out there let alone general public.

So Microsoft will never offer a Blu-ray drive for use with the 360?
As “never” as is the case with Sony producing a version of PS3 with standard DVD or HD DVD drive :p.

Jeff Williams

04-06-07, 02:21 PM

Can you be specific?
It's not something that I worked on personally, but The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen is a BD-J title and has a bookmarking feature. I got it to work on a Panasonic player, but not the first-gen Samsung. It a very simple example of a particular problem.

On my own work, it gets even simpler. I'm working on a BD-J demo disc. 10 clips that loop with an interactive animated menu. It's a very basic project with huge headaches. Without getting into a lot of details, the looping is causing a lot of problems. I've tested it on 3 hardware players and 1 software player. The software player plays the loop as intended. Since this is the first player that I tested it on, I was hopeful. Next, I moved to the first-gen Samsung. Played all the clips and stopped at the last one instead of looping back to the beginning. Not terrible and maybe easily fixed. Next up, the Sony player. It runs extremely slow and only plays the first clip and stops. Now I'm getting angry. Finally, the Panasonic. Put the disc in, and nothing. It displays "Now Reading" and goes nowhere :mad:.

Now how is it that 4 players that all adhere to the same spec have 4 different results? And before you ask, yes the firmwares are all up to date.

Hi Amir,

First of all, thankyou for you continued support and posting in these forums - you seem to get a bit of a hammering sometimes, yet this hasn't stopped you from participating, and I think we are all greatful for that.

With regards to you above comments, as you may or may not be aware there has been some discussion on the MSDN forums reccently concerning DVD-R playback issues, which can be summarised two-fold:

1. Toshiba's HD-A2 & E2 players have 'issues' playing back DVD-Rs with Advanced Content.

2. 1st Gen players offered better performance for playback than 2nd gen players in HDi / Advanced content.

Would you, or any HD DVD insider be able to look into / comment / flag these issues with the relevant people / companies?

- Can Toshiba look into fixing this compatibility issue please?

- Do the newer Broadcom / Sigma SOC offerings address this performance issue, bringing levels back up to / exceeding the 1st gen players. I understand that you can't discuss which manufacturers will be using your chips and when, but is this something that the right 'people' are aware of and are aiming to address?

I'm actually taking part in that discussion too. I've run into some big differences from G1 to G2 players, mainly with animations. I'm hoping that Toshiba addresses them in a firmware update because it's a step backwards in my opinion.

MBL

04-07-07, 04:45 AM

Hi Amirm,
First of all thanks for your great support!

2 questions:
1. Is it just the HD DVD sound, that is "trapped" in night mode, or will the ingame sound also be opened with the upcoming update?
2. Can we expect to have a date announced for the updates, or will they just appear one LOVELY day?

Thanks in advance for your reply.
Regards Martin Lynge - Denmark

-Hitman-

04-07-07, 05:40 AM

Hi Amir,

Going back to the VGA/Component differences with colourspace....

I have a Panasonic 50PHD8 plasma panel and have an RGBHV board fitted that can be configured to accept component or VGA(RGBHV) inputs.

Component as mentioned before gives a great picture with excellent detail but when using the VGA output the colours become washed out and a large amount of detail has been lost.

I have found the above when doing a side by side comparison of the two outputs.
(using a PC to provide a direct comparison in the same way above, both images result in being exactly the same in colour and detail)

Surley this can't be the display and has to be the outputs from the 360 as the display is using the exact same connection only with the difference of H/V becoming seperated from the video signal when using the VGA side.

I have also noticed using the service menu of my display that the VGA output is giving out some strange timing frequencies that seem to be lower than the expected frequency, this has also been reported by Gefen users on the forum over there and that Gefen devices are not working because of this.

I also speak for probably all Panasonic display users and ask if the 1366x768 @50 and 60hz resolution can/will be added.

1 last thing is could it be possible to have an Auto resolution feature that will bypass the 360's scaling and deinterlacing and output native resolutions of the source media eg.480i/576i DVD, 720P games and 1080i/p HD-DVD for people who use an external scaler, so that all scaling and deinterlacing would be done via the external processor?

Thank you!

amirm

04-07-07, 05:44 AM

Hi Amirm,
First of all thanks for your great support!

2 questions:
1. Is it just the HD DVD sound, that is "trapped" in night mode, or will the ingame sound also be opened with the upcoming update?
Just the HD DVD sound because the problem is in the decoder not, encoder (the later is the only part used for gaming).

2. Can we expect to have a date announced for the updates, or will they just appear one LOVELY day?
They will just appear one lovely day I am afraid :). I will do my best to leak it a bit earlier if I can, but no promises.

Thanks in advance for your reply.
Regards Martin Lynge - Denmark
My pleasure.

amirm

04-07-07, 05:49 AM

Hi Amir,

Going back to the VGA/Component differences with colourspace....

I have a Panasonic 50PHD8 plasma panel and have an RGBHV board fitted that can be configured to accept component or VGA(RGBHV) inputs.

Component as mentioned before gives a great picture with excellent detail but when using the VGA output the colours become washed out and a large amount of detail has been lost.

I have found the above when doing a side by side comparison of the two outputs.

Surley this can't be the display and has to be the outputs from the 360 as the display is using the exact same connection only with the difference of H/V becoming seperated from the video signal when using the VGA side.
Unfortunately it is the display. Problem is that there are two "standards" for VGA video. One comes from PC world and is full range. The other from video and it is not. The current 360 only outputs in one mode so if your TV works the other way, then you are going to get washed out colors/contrast. Component was never used for PC monitors so it doesn't have this problem (although in broadcast world, we suffer from it sometimes).

I have also noticed using the service menu of my display that the VGA output is giving out some strange timing frequencies that seem to be lower than the expected frequency, this has also been reported by Gefen users on the forum over there and that Gefen devices are not working because of this.
If you can give me a link to the specific discussion, I will have someone look into it.

I also speak for probably all Panasonic display users and ask if the 1366x768 @50 and 60hz resolution can/will be added.
My focus right now is trying to get the resolution for new crop of LCDs added. If I succeed there, then I will take more requests :).

1 last thing is could it be possible to have an Auto resolution feature that will bypass the 360's scaling and deinterlacing and output native resolutions of the source media eg.480i/576i DVD, 720P games and 1080i/p HD-DVD for people who use an external scaler, so that all scaling and deinterlacing would be done via the external processor?

Thank you!
Understood. I will pass it on.

-Hitman-

04-07-07, 06:04 AM

Unfortunately it is the display. Problem is that there are two "standards" for VGA video. One comes from PC world and is full range. The other from video and it is not. The current 360 only outputs in one mode so if your TV works the other way, then you are going to get washed out colors/contrast. Component was never used for PC monitors so it doesn't have this problem (although in broadcast world, we suffer from it sometimes).

Will this issue be resolved by the addition of the 0IRE and 7.5IRE selection that you are adding to the 360?

If you can give me a link to the specific discussion, I will have someone look into it.

http://forum.gefen.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1380

My focus right now is trying to get the resolution for new crop of LCDs added. If I succeed there, then I will take more requests :).

Understood. I will pass it on.

Ok thank you very much indeed Amir, for your help and response, the auto feature would be an excellent addition;)!

amirm

04-07-07, 06:23 AM

Will this issue be resolved by the addition of the 0IRE and 7.5IRE selection that you are adding to the 360?
Yes.

http://forum.gefen.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1380
Thanks.

new_in_hd

04-07-07, 09:25 AM

Ben, amirm

Is there any HD DVD released with Film Grain Technology?
Is it supported by all Toshiba players?

thx

HighDeff

04-07-07, 10:11 AM

amirm

04-07-07, 12:43 PM

Ben, amirm

Is there any HD DVD released with Film Grain Technology?
Is it supported by all Toshiba players?

thx
I am not aware of any titles using it. As you know, FGT is only available for MPEG-4 AVC and is not for VC-1. So it is possible someone will use it without us knowing about it. But I believe there is only one MPEG-4 encoder which supports it and there have been no takers even though I have heard of discussion to use it a couple of times.

And yes, the Toshiba player supports it as it is mandatory in HD DVD spec. The logic is actually in the hardware MPEG-4 decoder btw. So in a funny way, BD players also have the same logic since they use the same chip!

amirm

04-07-07, 12:53 PM

Hi Amir and Ben

Since I first heard of HD DVD, I´ve been a big supporter, but recently I begin to have my doubts. I´ve just received the Discovery HD DVD disc "AUSTRALIA REVEALED", but it won´t play on my Toshiba HD-E1 (FW version 1.3 latest released).!!!

Why does WE again and again, have to wait for new FW updates, to play back all these new HD DVDs.??

Wouldn´t it be better, that you HD DVD insiders and manufacturers, solved all of this prior to releasing discs, that is not playable on the players allready sold.???

I know that none of you are directly connected to Toshiba, but this is a common problem. So what can be done to solve a major problem conserning HD DVD.???

HighDeff
Denmark
Northern Europe

:confused:
Let me start by saying I am not happy about these occurrences either. Both formats are letting the customer down with all of these compatibility problems. I have expressed my dissatisfaction to my team and Toshiba, hoping that new emphasis can be put to make the situation better.

What we are facing is that these products are incredibly complex compared to anything ever produced by CE/content companies before. The HDi interactivity spec for example, is 800 pages and I am sure the BD equiv. is no shorter. We are in the realm of complex computer programs, yet some are building equipment with much simpler assumptions.

Fortunately, you have seen the aggressive support from Toshiba to produce quick updates and with built-in internet connection and update mechanism, we can at least fix things. But I fully agree it is best to avoid the bugs, than fix them after the fact.

On the content side, we constantly plead with people to take advantage of our resources to test titles. But alas, titles come out without us ever seeing them. Again, they are facing a level of unknown performance never seen in DVD land. So I feel for them with regards to these issues.

We really have no shot at a mass market (again I am talking about both formats) without ironing out these glitches. As an industry, we need to mature the technology more than we have if we are to ever get to a point where people replace their DVD players with these new formats. We have a ton of work to do on this front…

laric

04-07-07, 01:20 PM

Hi Amir and thanks for all the info you put in there.

Is there any specific reasons "studio" (or should I say the people that build disk) cannot use any HD-DVD burner ? They should then be able to tests all this before release.

--Patrice

PeterTHX

04-07-07, 02:56 PM

As “never” as is the case with Sony producing a version of PS3 with standard DVD or HD DVD drive

Well the PS3 already plays standard DVDs....(so is that a yes?) ;)

trbarry

04-07-07, 04:22 PM

I am not aware of any titles using it. As you know, FGT is only available for MPEG-4 AVC and is not for VC-1. So it is possible someone will use it without us knowing about it. But I believe there is only one MPEG-4 encoder which supports it and there have been no takers even though I have heard of discussion to use it a couple of times.

And yes, the Toshiba player supports it as it is mandatory in HD DVD spec. The logic is actually in the hardware MPEG-4 decoder btw. So in a funny way, BD players also have the same logic since they use the same chip!

Amir -

I believe I personally proposed the equivalent of FGT to you on these forums almost 4 years ago shortly after I published my AddGrain open source filter. Since VC-1 obviously doesn't use it can I take it you are not a fan of the technology? ;)

BTW, since my public post was likely before FGT was proposed for AVC, or patented, would it constitute prior art for patent purposes?

- Tom

new_in_hd

04-07-07, 04:48 PM

Ben, amirm

Can you confirm that PEP is not anymore available from Microsoft, but from Sonic for some (not small) amount of money?

amirm

04-07-07, 05:34 PM

Amir -

I believe I personally proposed the equivalent of FGT to you on these forums almost 4 years ago shortly after I published my AddGrain open source filter. Since VC-1 obviously doesn't use it can I take it you are not a fan of the technology? ;)

BTW, since my public post was likely before FGT was proposed for AVC, or patented, would it constitute prior art for patent purposes?

- Tom
I can't really answer your legal question there. I will just note that FGT is not just noise insertion. It has noise modeling which is used at encoding time, to determine which noise profile to insert at playback. If your scheme is the same, by all means, give the Thomson guys a call :).

amirm

04-07-07, 05:54 PM

Well the PS3 already plays standard DVDs....(so is that a yes?) ;)
I didn't say that it played DVD. But that it ships with a normal DVD drive ;).

Supporting BD has not been at all a motivation for our choice to continue to offer HD DVD as a separate option. The drive is external and optional because it simply is too expensive to make it standard for everyone. Look at the fact that we are able to ship a 120 gigabyte (Elite) 360 for less money than the competition ships a 20 gigabyte machine! And that the other guy is in so much pain with the 20 gigabyte unit that are making sure few people opt for it by sharply reducing distribution. Reason is simple. Some components of a blue-laser drive can cost as much as an entire red laser drive!

Now, if PS3 was the most wildly successful game machine, then it would influence our decision to do things maybe differently. But they have clearly shown that their decision to include a blue-laser drive at this point in time, has been a poor choice with respect to their gaming business, given their third-place finish. We don't walk away from that observation, copying their (in our opinion) mistake. Indeed, we look at what Nintendo has done and it reinforces our choice even more that you have to keep focusing on value and great gaming experience as number one priority. Lose your eye on that target, and you do finish last.

So please, don't keep hypothesizing things that are not backed by much simpler logic. The cost factor and the lack of sufficient value general consumers/gamers put on HD optical playback are the key reasons you see us not wanting to force everyone to pay a premium to get a blue laser drive. Not some advance thought to put in a BD drive in there.

trbarry

04-07-07, 06:14 PM

I can't really answer your legal question there. I will just note that FGT is not just noise insertion. It has noise modeling which is used at encoding time, to determine which noise profile to insert at playback. If your scheme is the same, by all means, give the Thomson guys a call :).

I don't have any legal issues there, or even a dog in that race. But with regards to the modeling, see my old series of posts in the archives starting with my ""mit regard to der rad schidt" (http://archive.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=1744665#post1744665) (I don't like grain ;) ) post in your own original WMV9 Step into Liquid thread. There I suggested to you (back in Jan 2003):

Amir -

I never said I knew how to do it satisfactorily.

But I'll bet if some of your guys researched it a bit it would be semi random noise slightly more correlated on one axis than the other, and probably easily simulated for a whole movie (or at least scene) depending upon a couple parms.

And I guess it is not possible to filter it out either without losing some detail. But when bits run short and you have to start quantizing high frequency detail anyway it sure might be a good candidate for something to lose if you felt you could sneak it back in later.

To me it's always seemed there is some detail that actually gives some information about the desired real world scene and there is other detail that just sort of gives a texture or flavor to things. Whether that 2nd type can be abstracted out and then pass a Hollywood Turing taste test is something I really don't know.
...
- Tom

FWIW, I still believe it is a useful technique (in moderation) though I don't have the details of how the Thompson guys decided to to it.

edit: The question part ... do you still not believe this could have some value?

- Tom

wickedbob

04-07-07, 06:54 PM

amirm

04-07-07, 07:12 PM

Hi Amir

http://www.engadget.com/2007/04/07/xbox-360-spring-dashboard-update-leaked/

May 7th? Really?

Could you please pass along the suggestion to the Xbox team that they should ship their bug fixes separate from their dashboard updates?
It would save us waiting so long for resolutions to silly little problems.
Thanks.
I won't comment on the above article. But there are TWO releases here. One for HD DVD and one for the dashboard. The dashboard has the VGA fix. But the rest are in HD DVD update. Also the dates are different as the projects are seperate.

joeydoo

04-07-07, 10:15 PM

I won't comment on the above article. But there are TWO releases here. One for HD DVD and one for the dashboard. The dashboard has the VGA fix. But the rest are in HD DVD update. Also the dates are different as the projects are seperate.

If they are separate then is the location of changing the DTS output setting within the HDDVD player or in the dashboard? If the preference toggle/tickbox/thingy is in the dashboard then doesn't that require the dashboard to be updated? Is that option coming with the dashboard update?

xradman

04-08-07, 12:32 AM

Amir,

Can you comment on PQ of Traffic as reported by Xylon in these posts? (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10241130#post10241130) It really looks as though Universal used an upconverted SD master for this HD DVD release. I see absolutely zero increase in resolution for HD DVD in these examples. Any information you can gather from your contacts at Universal would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you,

amirm

04-08-07, 03:11 AM

amirm

04-08-07, 03:14 AM

edit: The question part ... do you still not believe this could have some value?

- Tom
What do you mean by "this?" FGT? If so, I would say at sub 10 mbit/sec, and with select content, it might do some good. Problem is that in many cases, FGT does more harm than good. So one would have to keep trying both ways and that could get expensive in man power.

amirm

04-08-07, 03:16 AM

Ben, amirm

Can you confirm that PEP is not anymore available from Microsoft, but from Sonic for some (not small) amount of money?
We have not made any public statements to this effect. But in general, we are looking for ways to scale better. There is so much demand on our engineering team, given so many post houses worldwide coming online with VC-1, that we have to find other ways to support them.

Hixxy

04-08-07, 08:11 AM

Hi

got question for amirm about vga 16:10 aspect problem that is currently on xbox hardware forum over 500 posts on this subject still nothing from microsoft,

Can't post url due to restrictions in place but if you go to xbox hardware forum and post is called "Need 16:10 Resolution Support... 1440x900... 1680x1050..."

we've try to contact hardware customer support directly but keep getting run around one customer support rep said it was being resolved and other denied it.

Question is do you know if we will be getting 1440x900 - 1680x1050 support in next update to help resolve this issue.

Sorry to be so direct i know may not be able to answer this question but any input would be great thanks

Bar81

04-08-07, 11:34 AM

I won't comment on the above article. But there are TWO releases here. One for HD DVD and one for the dashboard. The dashboard has the VGA fix. But the rest are in HD DVD update. Also the dates are different as the projects are seperate.

So the question then is, given the May 7th dashboard update confirmed date, is the decoupled HD DVD update going to come before or after May 7th?

John Haghighi

04-08-07, 01:43 PM

Sure. I will pass on.

WMA Pro algorithm is not public so I cannot talk about the details in the algorithm. In general however, our design goal was 2X more efficiency than DD/DTS. In double blind tests at 760 kbps, we matched the performance of DTS at 1.5 mbit/sec for example (5.1).

WMA Pro supports both lossy and lossless encoding. It will dynamically switch between the two as necessary but you can force it to encode strictly in lossless mode.

Yes, and no. The lossless mode in WMP is indeed a subset of WMA Pro algorithm. WMA Pro however, goes beyond that, with support for 7.1 channels and 24-bit, 96khz support and lossy/lossless encoding.

One small note here: all the encoders in 360 are running in real-time. As such, their performance is somewhat different than off-line software encoder which can take their time encoding.

.

So is what is the difference between WMA 10 Pro and WMA 9 Pro, and which does the 360 and AV receivers support, both? Is 10 backwards compatible with 9 decoders?

Since WMA Lossless is a subset of WMA Pro can we assume the AV receivers that support WMA Pro playback WMA Lossless?

You mention that the the WMA Pro can dynamically switch between lossy and lossless, can this be done running in real-time? Will it be forced to lossy in the 360?

Unclear about WMAL, if it is a distinct codec from WMA, does the WMA Lossless codec have a hybrid/lossy mode?

amirm

04-08-07, 03:05 PM

amirm

04-08-07, 03:18 PM

So is what is the difference between WMA 10 Pro and WMA 9 Pro, and which does the 360 and AV receivers support, both? Is 10 backwards compatible with 9 decoders?
I don't recall what changes we made from 9 to 10. But as far as I know, 10 is backward compatible with 9. And the 360 update has been tested and works with receivers such as Pioneer.

Since WMA Lossless is a subset of WMA Pro can we assume the AV receivers that support WMA Pro playback WMA Lossless?
Unfortunately not. WMA lossless is a stand-alone codec that while being a subset of WMA Pro, has its own syntax which is incompatible with WMA Pro decoders.

Note that WMA Lossless is just stereo (the version in WMA Pro is multi-channel). As such, the source can decode it and easily send it over coax/toslink, etc. and travel that way to the receiver, obviating the need to have a decoder there. WMA Pro however, cannot fit over that channel and hence the reason it was ported to DSPs used in AVRs.

You mention that the the WMA Pro can dynamically switch between lossy and lossless, can this be done running in real-time? Will it be forced to lossy in the 360?
I can't get into details of this. But it is a dynamic thing that the codec uses as it is encoding.

Unclear about WMAL, if it is a distinct codec from WMA, does the WMA Lossless codec have a hybrid/lossy mode?
WMA Lossless is a different codec than regular WMA. We could have made it a subset of WMA but it would not have been as efficient.

amirm

04-08-07, 03:20 PM

So the question then is, given the May 7th dashboard update confirmed date, is the decoupled HD DVD update going to come before or after May 7th?
I am sorry but I can't comment on the schedule that way. Because if I said it, and something changed, then I get even more unhappy posts :).

amirm

04-08-07, 04:41 PM

Someone asked where the DTS update is, in dashboard udpate or HD DVD. The answer is the later.

So to summarize, you need the dashboard update for VGA level setting. All the other fixes you are looking for from new encoding options, fixed audio decoding dynamic range, lip sync, title compatibility, etc., is in the HD DVD udpate. And the dates are seperate for each update.

Hope this helps.

StevenZ

04-08-07, 06:06 PM

Could the insiders and outsiders take off-topic discussions (WMA, 16:10 gaming resolutions, and other non-HD-DVD questions about Xbox 360, etc.) to another thread, please?

amirm

04-08-07, 06:16 PM

Could the insiders and outsiders take off-topic discussions (WMA, 16:10 gaming resolutions, and other non-HD-DVD questions about Xbox 360, etc.) to another thread, please?
Kind of impractical to take these questions elsewhere seeing how I can only comment in this thread.

Besides, it is not like there are a hundred other questions being asked and getting lost in the shuffle.

Still, since you all initiate questions and I follow, if the stream stops, we will get to where you want us to be, without insiders needing to do anything.

cyberbri

04-08-07, 07:58 PM

Amir,

Regarding the new options for HD-DVD playback (0 vs 7.5, Night Mode ON/OFF, etc.), I know the HD-DVD update will be separate from the Dashboard update, but will these be inside a special HD-DVD setup menu? Or will they be in a new section somewhere in the Dashboard? Right now there is no setup menu like standard DVD and HD players have.

alfbinet

04-08-07, 08:31 PM

Kind of impractical to take these questions elsewhere seeing how I can only comment in this thread.
Besides, it is not like there are a hundred other questions being asked and getting lost in the shuffle.

Still, since you all initiate questions and I follow, if the stream stops, we will get to where you want us to be, without insiders needing to do anything.

Amir, why? Talk comments on other threads.

Ken H

04-08-07, 10:02 PM

Could the insiders and outsiders take off-topic discussions (WMA, 16:10 gaming resolutions, and other non-HD-DVD questions about Xbox 360, etc.) to another thread, please?
No.

Dahlsim

04-08-07, 10:49 PM

Amir, why? Talk comments on other threads.

This thread was a solution to a problem where the valuable resource of insiders was not being taken advantage of properly. I think collecting their knowledge in one closely moderated location has been a great solution to that problem. :)

The thread does at times get more broad than just "blu-ray/hd-dvd" but that a seems a small price to pay.

@Amir, @Ben or other MS insider. There is a fair amount of 360 related questions here. Clearly the Xbox 360 elite is geared toward increased emphasis on HD video downloads. Can you answer questions as it relates to MS Xbox 360 HD video download service or is there a better place to ask questions about that service?

tanukibear

04-08-07, 11:39 PM

Hey Amir and Ben,

I've been reading a lot of what you've been writing here, and am very appreciative of what you have going on here. One of the things Microsoft and its employees have done right compared to their competitors in the video game space is that they have some sense of community between employees/insiders and consumers. Though I'm still reading and catching up on things, I still haven't found an adequate answer to a question that's been burning in the back of my mind for a good long while.

My initial read of the features sounded like there might have been a fix for 1080p over VGA, but your responses to someone else who had problems with a Sony TV/Monitor actually sounds like there may not be a proper fix after all. My BenQ FP241W can do 1920x1080 just fine with a PC and a Mac, through either VGA or DVI (this should be expected, as it is a computer monitor after all), but my 360 chokes and sputters pretty badly, giving me a wildly distorted picture (stretched vertically beyond the limits of the screen, and placed on the far right so far that I can't see half the picture). To compensate, I am running it at 1280x1024 in widescreen mode.

Frankly, this is not only disappointing, but also leads me to purchase Blu-Ray discs over HD-DVD and will lead me to purchase more PS3 games over 360 games in the future (at least the ones that are multiplatform and support 1080p...there are few so far). If Microsoft can't get VGA resolutions right, then I have less of a reason to support them over their main competitor, which actually did nail that resolution right the first time.

I've been in contact repeatedly with MS tech support, and even got in contact with Major Nelson who assured me via email that the "team would look into it," but so far, nothing. Will the Spring update provide proper 1080p over VGA for games and HD-DVD's? I'm not about to go out and buy an Elite at this point (my monitor has HDMI, but my PS3 is occupying it, and I'm not willing to buy another 360 since I already own one), so this means I will be shifting more to the Sony side of things if Microsoft can't get it right.

Talkstr8t

04-09-07, 12:14 AM

My reaction to this program ["Phase Hydra"] was actually different than what people seem to worry about. Yes, having more shills here would be bad. But you all are excellent in weeding them out. Few can show up here and pretend to speak “our language” within two days of indoctrination. Certainly AVS is too sophisticated for cheap games like this.

...

Unfortunately, some of this detail is not in Alex’s post so I can’t be too specific. But suffice it to say, the broad brush they are using to paint here might cause them trouble. Professional marketing people have little understanding of the dynamics here and elsewhere and it shows from the list of the targets they have. And there is so much you can try to market and influence bloggers and such before they lose their credibility and have the whole thing backfire on you as a result.Let me be very clear here. Alex stated the following:
The BDA has formally kicked off a new PR campaign called "Phase Hydra"....its purpose is to seed "high profile" forums with Blu-ray advocates and target bloggers to promote Blu-ray to get the word out to the world...the campaign will also focus on "smaller, independent studio issues"...
Here (word-for-word) is exactly what was presented:

Phase “Hydra”: strengthen PR tactics with bloggers, deal with smaller independent studio issues, etc.

Nothing about "seeding", "high profile", or "Blu-ray advocates". This bullet simply refers to BDA representation not being as visible here and in other active high-def forums as has representation from the HD DVD camp. Paidgeek's efforts here on the forum stem in part from this understanding. Do you consider him a "shill", or his input non-credible?

Alex is breaching someone's trust by posting confidential documents, and when the information is presented out of context from the full verbal presentation it's even more prone to mis-representation.

- Talk

Talkstr8t

04-09-07, 12:18 AM

BD-J is still an issue along different players. Finding a happy medium between them all is getting harder and harder as the interactivity gets more complex.I can assure you a great deal of effort is going into ensuring that the frustrations you've encountered authoring advanced content are short-term.

- Talk

Talkstr8t

04-09-07, 12:24 AM

Is "BD-Live" the final, sanctioned name for the network-connectable feature?To my knowledge, yes.
Will Profile 1.1 get a name?In the formal specification it is referred to as BD-ROM Profile 1. I suspect it will probably be simply referred to as "BD-Video" in the marketplace.
If Profile 1.1 is mandatory for players after 31 Oct 07, will Profile 2 be mandatory at some point (perhaps with exclusions for portable players or other device classes)? If not, do you think Profile 2 will always be a step-up feature, or will it just become normal? It has been made optional to provide manufacturers the option to differentiate their products. I suspect it will be found on the vast majority of players, however.
If (as Talk suggests (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10108418&&highlight=fox&#post10108418)) Fox intends to release discs that use Profile-2 features in 2007, my guess is that there will be one or two P2 players to test against, or maybe to buy, by the end of the year. What will kick off the big push for Profile 2 players? CES 2008? I don't have any speculation here.

- Talk

Talkstr8t

04-09-07, 12:25 AM

Samsung Universal Player in July? Looking for BD folk input. Has Samsung Gone Neutral?

Amir responded any BD or Samsung folks here to give credence or deny?Only Samsung can deny this, and to my knowledge they have not had a presence here. Don't take a lack of response from other BD insiders as confirmation that this rumored player is coming.

- Talk

chad_cincy

04-09-07, 12:43 AM

Phase “Hydra”: strengthen PR tactics with bloggers, deal with smaller independent studio issues, etc.

[snip] This bullet simply refers to BDA representation not being as visible here and in other active high-def forums... [snip]
- Talk
Talk,

The bullet actually doesn't refer to high-def forums at all. Is there more to this, than this one bullet? I'm just trying to wrap my head around how both you and Alex agree on particular forums being an area of interest if this is truly the complete and only source of information of "Phase Hydra".

Thanks for your candor and willingness to discuss it with us, Talk.

John Haghighi

04-09-07, 01:48 AM

Unfortunately not. WMA lossless is a stand-alone codec that while being a subset of WMA Pro, has its own syntax which is incompatible with WMA Pro decoders.

Note that WMA Lossless is just stereo (the version in WMA Pro is multi-channel). As such, the source can decode it and easily send it over coax/toslink, etc. and travel that way to the receiver, obviating the need to have a decoder there.

Does this mean the WMA Lossless can be decoded on the 360 today and sent over toslink as DD? What happens after the HD DVD update? Re-encode to WMA Pro?

What about the Elite 360, can WMA Lossless be decoded and sent over HDMI as two channel PCM?

amirm

04-09-07, 02:00 AM

I hope the new AACS update isn't what is holding the new HD-DVD update from getting in our hands?

I'd rather have another small update next month when they do change over keys.
No, there is nothing related to AACS since our implementation was not breached (even though the drive may have been used in other applications).

What takes a long time is testing 200+ titles with every build of the system to make sure there are no regressions.

Talkstr8t

04-09-07, 02:01 AM

The bullet actually doesn't refer to high-def forums at all. Is there more to this, than this one bullet? I'm just trying to wrap my head around how both you and Alex agree on particular forums being an area of interest if this is truly the complete and only source of information of "Phase Hydra".There is no other reference in the entire 42-page presentation to "Hydra", blogging, forums, or anything else which could possibly suggest what has been inferred here from Alex's misleading paraphrasing of the presentation.
Thanks for your candor and willingness to discuss it with us, Talk.I'm not comfortable posting verbatim here from a confidential document, but I feel it's better to clear the air than to let misinformation inform the agenda...

John Haghighi

04-09-07, 02:04 AM

There is no other reference in the entire 42-page presentation to "Hydra", blogging, forums, or anything else which could possibly suggest what has been inferred here from Alex's misleading paraphrasing of the presentation.
I'm not comfortable posting verbatim here from a confidential document, but I feel it's better to clear the air than to let misinformation inform the agenda...

Thanks for posting the clarification, your explanation is perfectly clear. Can we expect more BD insiders participation here?

amirm

04-09-07, 02:05 AM

My initial read of the features sounded like there might have been a fix for 1080p over VGA, but your responses to someone else who had problems with a Sony TV/Monitor actually sounds like there may not be a proper fix after all.
Hmmm. I am not sure what I said that would sound this way :). We have fixed all the problems we know of with Sony XBR LCDs.

My BenQ FP241W can do 1920x1080 just fine with a PC and a Mac, through either VGA or DVI (this should be expected, as it is a computer monitor after all), but my 360 chokes and sputters pretty badly, giving me a wildly distorted picture (stretched vertically beyond the limits of the screen, and placed on the far right so far that I can't see half the picture). To compensate, I am running it at 1280x1024 in widescreen mode.
It is hard for us to comment on any and all display issues. Sometimes the problem is in the display and requires work arounds (which other vendors might already have). I suggest testing it against the spring update and see if there are improvements.

Frankly, this is not only disappointing, but also leads me to purchase Blu-Ray discs over HD-DVD and will lead me to purchase more PS3 games over 360 games in the future (at least the ones that are multiplatform and support 1080p...there are few so far). If Microsoft can't get VGA resolutions right, then I have less of a reason to support them over their main competitor, which actually did nail that resolution right the first time.
Unfortunately, it is not all up to us. Display problems can be at either end. Over time, one accumulates a lot of work arounds to deal with them across large majority of displays. But given the fact that we recently enabled 1080p timing on VGA, some problems are to be expected, given the state of the industry. I am sorry for the inconvenience this causes anyone.

I've been in contact repeatedly with MS tech support, and even got in contact with Major Nelson who assured me via email that the "team would look into it," but so far, nothing. Will the Spring update provide proper 1080p over VGA for games and HD-DVD's? I'm not about to go out and buy an Elite at this point (my monitor has HDMI, but my PS3 is occupying it, and I'm not willing to buy another 360 since I already own one), so this means I will be shifting more to the Sony side of things if Microsoft can't get it right.
The team tells me that they have found/fixed a number of issues related to this. Unfortunately, per above I can’t guarantee that your specific problem is fixed. If it is not, you should feel free to scream at me and I will make sure the Xbox senior managers know about it. Deal?

TwisTz

04-09-07, 02:07 AM

What takes a long time is testing 200+ titles with every build of the system to make sure there are no regressions.

I'm sure we would be happy to test all the 200+ titles if you could slip us the update discreetly. :p

amirm

04-09-07, 02:12 AM

Let me be very clear here. Alex stated the following:

Here (word-for-word) is exactly what was presented:

Phase “Hydra”: strengthen PR tactics with bloggers, deal with smaller independent studio issues, etc.

Nothing about "seeding", "high profile", or "Blu-ray advocates". This bullet simply refers to BDA representation not being as visible here and in other active high-def forums as has representation from the HD DVD camp. Paidgeek's efforts here on the forum stem in part from this understanding. Do you consider him a "shill", or his input non-credible?

Alex is breaching someone's trust by posting confidential documents, and when the information is presented out of context from the full verbal presentation it's even more prone to mis-representation.

- Talk
Talk, as you noticed, I have not said much beyond what Alex has mentioned. So I am unclear as to nature of your objection regarding my post. If you genuinely want to address people's concerns, do as I suggested: “tell it all, tell it now. “ Go ahead and fully disclose the plans and let people see if there is something bad in it. Or let the topic die, as it was nicely doing on its own before you renewed it ;).

Talkstr8t

04-09-07, 02:16 AM

Sorry, Amir, while I know you're not a fan of direct insider discussion, I just can't let this one go unanswered. I'll understand if you choose not to respond...
Really, I don't understand how you consider BD just as good. HD DVD mandates two more codecs than BD. That ought to provide more flexibility than not.20GB provides a lot more flexibility than does another codec. Worst case the hit for Blu-ray not having mandatory TrueHD support is the need to include an additional 640kb/sec DD track alongside the TrueHD track, which by my calculation would be an extra 824MB for a three hour movie, or less than 5% of the additional capacity afforded by Blu-ray. And with both Sony and Disney indicating plans for 80% of upcoming releases to be BD-50, I won't accept your argument that BD-25 will be the norm and that Blu-ray bears no capacity advantage.
The more "forward looking" format has made networking standard so that you can have open ended capacity and bandwidth.Just because BD gives manufacturers and consumers the ability to choose the featureset they desire (i.e. networking support) doesn't in any way suggest it is a less "forward looking" format. For my money mandating far higher capacity and bandwidth buys much more flexibility than does mandating network support. Blu-ray supports the same "open-ended capacity and bandwidth" you attribute to HD DVD for anyone who chooses to buy a network-enabled player. Meanwhile Blu-ray took the necessary companion step of mandating 1GB of local storage capability for all network-connected players. The feature you describe would be useless without sufficient local storage. Is there any mandate that more than 128MB be provided on HD DVD, or a mandate that USB or memory slots be present to support external storage? Without this companion requirement to mandatory network support a given HD DVD consumer is no more guaranteed to be able to access network-delivered audio than would be a given Blu-ray Disc consumer who may or may not have a network-enabled player. The fact that a good percentage of HD DVD network-enabled players won't be attached to a network also dilutes your argument that network-delivered audio tracks make up for HD DVD's capacity deficit.

- Talk

huntaar

04-09-07, 02:17 AM

What takes a long time is testing 200+ titles with every build of the system to make sure there are no regressions.

Amir,

Has there been any talk of starting a beta program for the HD DVD add-on software updates? Who better to test all the ins and outs than a bunch of home theatre nuts? We'd be happy getting the updates sooner and MS, hopefully, wouldn't need to put in as many man hours testing against all the different HT configurations. A win-win!

John Haghighi

04-09-07, 02:37 AM

Hmmm. I am not sure what I said that would sound this way :). We have fixed all the problems we know of with Sony XBR LCDs.

The Sony XBR2 RPTV's are the ones that never worked with VGA or any of the updates provided thus far.

It is hard for us to comment on any and all display issues. Sometimes the problem is in the display and requires work arounds (which other vendors might already have)

Does this mean that the alleged Console update in May will not include a fix for these Sony XBR2 RPTV displays?

Should we be pushing Sony for a fix?

Michael76706

04-09-07, 03:14 AM

Amirm or other MS insider,
I have a Samsung ln-s4095d will the update help with the washed out colors that the vga cable produces on this tv?

BioSehnsucht

04-09-07, 03:17 AM

Amir or other MS Insider:

A thought just occured to me, that since there was some theory (I don't believe it was ever confirmed) that the reason 1080P resolution timings don't work with CRTs (because of a reduced blanking interval) is that the 'Ana' analog chip was being maxed out, and did not have the the bandwidth to increase the horizontal blanking to normal timings.

Will the elite be limited to the same reduced blanking intervals that the normal 360 is, or will the new output stage allow for normal 1080P/60 timing and therefore CRT compatibility. Also, if it can do so, will it be limited to just HDMI or analog output, or work for both?

While I was previously of the mindset that multichannel LPCM via HDMI was a deal maker/breaker for me, it occurs to me that being able to properly support 1080P with normal timings would also sell me on buying a new 360, despite the lack of LPCM surround.

Secondarily, if it is a bandwidth constraint as theorized on the older 360 models, would there be a possibility of a future update bringing a reduced horizontal resolution 1080P mode, to bring the necessary bandwidth in line with what is available to the system? Since my only other option is 1280x720P anyways (unless a 1080i VGA option is added), and 1920x1080i seems to work fine, then something around 960x1080P should be possible. That is giving up half the horizontal detail, but I'd rather lose some horizontal resolution than lose resolution in both axes - at least it would be an even 2:1 reduction and not fractional 1.5:1. As long as the timings matched 1080P60, it shouldn't matter to display devices if the horizontal picture data was 960 'double wide' pixels.

tanukibear

04-09-07, 03:31 AM

Hmmm. I am not sure what I said that would sound this way :). We have fixed all the problems we know of with Sony XBR LCDs.
Actually, I'm having a hard time finding that comment again...not sure where it went scampering off to, or maybe I just misread something concerning Sony TV's. I know that Sony customers were the most vocal during the initial release of 1080p, so they were pretty much the only ones with 1080p over VGA problems that have received a fix so far, though I don't think the fix addresses ALL Sony TV's.

Unfortunately, it is not all up to us. Display problems can be at either end.
True enough, but there were a lot of us who had this problem with a myriad of different displays (many of them actually seemed to be computer monitors, like mine). Most of us have given up complaining about it though, since Microsoft seemed to have given up on us non-Sony customers with 1080p VGA problems. We all were vocal about it for a while on the 360 forums and on Major Nelson's page, though. If you'd like links, I will do my best to provide some, though I may have a little trouble finding it now...it has been a while since the initial two 1080p updates, after all.

This combined with my LCD's proven ability to display 1920x1080 correctly leads me to believe it's probably more the 360 than my BenQ display.

The team tells me that they have found/fixed a number of issues related to this. Unfortunately, per above I can’t guarantee that your specific problem is fixed. If it is not, you should feel free to scream at me and I will make sure the Xbox senior managers know about it. Deal?
Is this for the current Dashboard or the Update to come soon? If it's the former, it ain't workin' now, and my lungs are tired from all the screaming I've already done. If it's the latter, I will be sure to let you and many others know, as I have done before.

Many thanks, Amir. :)

kornesque

04-09-07, 08:32 AM

Well, it appears the update will include support for h.264. THANK THE HEAVENS! The page listing the features says up to 15mbps...is this the average bitrate?

http://www.xbox.com/en-US/community/news/2007/0408-im.htm

bigblueit

04-09-07, 09:07 AM

Amir,

You may not be aware of this as its a PAL issue but I can tell you there are literally thousands of PAL 360 users that have had issues with 'tearing' over VGA ever since the fall update.. Horizontal break up of frames is the best way to discribe it when panning horizontally and made games unplayable (literally), particularly Dead Rising. This issue is something MS introduced as there was no problem with tearing over VGA before the fall update. This did not affect NTSC systems for some reason which is why it hasnt received as much publicity.

The subsequent 1080p 'fix' reduced the issue to making games more barable but still having the problem.

Can you confirm whether these issues have been addressed in the spring update as part of the larger VGA fixes?

Thanks

TomsHT

04-09-07, 09:51 AM

And with both Sony and Disney indicating plans for 80% of upcoming releases to be BD-50, I won't accept your argument that BD-25 will be the norm and that Blu-ray bears no capacity advantage.

Out of all the Blu-ray disc's released and announced for release with specs regarding disc size, only about 20% are actually on BD50 discs while 80% of these are on BD25s.

The above is including titles that Sony and Disney have announced to be released on BD50s.

If 80% of all titles are on BD25, how could that not be considered the norm?

And at what point will this be reveresed that 80% will actually be on BD50 discs?

tiong_fi

04-09-07, 10:43 AM

Amir,

Does the "Added MPEG-4 Part 2 video support: Up to 8 Mbps, Simple Profile with 2 channel AAC LC and Main Profiles." include support for XViD or DivX?

swanlee

04-09-07, 11:35 AM

Amir

Does the added support for MPEG-4 and some AVI apply when streaming to the 360 from Windows Media 11? Won't there need to be a Windows Media patch to allow this?
If not can we request this to happen soon, more codecs for streamin through WM 11 would be great.

zoro

04-09-07, 11:52 AM

Amir,

Does the "Added MPEG-4 Part 2 video support: Up to 8 Mbps, Simple Profile with 2 channel AAC LC and Main Profiles." include support for XViD or DivX?

same question here?

benwaggoner

04-09-07, 11:53 AM

So is what is the difference between WMA 10 Pro and WMA 9 Pro, and which does the 360 and AV receivers support, both? Is 10 backwards compatible with 9 decoders?
WMA Pro 10 is a backwards compatible enhancement to WMA Pro 9. Bitrates at 128 Kbps and above are identically decoded, although there are quality improvements in the new implementation. The rates below 128 Kbps are new, and offer much improved compression efficiency, but aren't relevant to home theater applications.

I included some more details on the new codec in this article:

http://www.streamingmedia.com/article.asp?id=9510&page=2&c=4

benwaggoner

04-09-07, 12:00 PM

20GB provides a lot more flexibility than does another codec. Worst case the hit for Blu-ray not having mandatory TrueHD support is the need to include an additional 640kb/sec DD track alongside the TrueHD track, which by my calculation would be an extra 824MB for a three hour movie, or less than 5% of the additional capacity afforded by Blu-ray.
But is that really the apropos comparison?

With a TrueHD HD DVD disc, the content author knows that the user can get all the bits of audio they can take. With a BD TrueHD + AC-3 disc, the contnent author will know that many customers with expensive players would just hear the AC-3. That's why we see AC-3 + PCM discs, right?

BuGsArEtAsTy

04-09-07, 12:11 PM

But is that really the apropos comparison?

With a TrueHD HD DVD disc, the content author knows that the user can get all the bits of audio they can take. With a BD TrueHD + AC-3 disc, the contnent author will know that many customers with expensive players would just hear the AC-3. That's why we see AC-3 + PCM discs, right?
I note that the HD DVD spec only mandates TrueHD 2.0. What does that mean exactly? There are several options I can think of:

1) The track simply doesn't work on bare bones HD DVD machines (none of which exist at the moment).
2) Only two channels of the TrueHD track are decoded.
3) All TrueHD channels are decoded, but the sound is remixed to 2 channel audio.
4) The DVD Forum will be changing the spec to require TrueHD 5.1 support (which wouldn't affect existing players).

Which of the above is true, if any? Options 3 (and 4) would be fine, but options 1 and 2 would be problems.

(I believe there were some comments on this before, but I'm not sure exactly where.)

RobertR1

04-09-07, 01:49 PM

Just because BD gives manufacturers and consumers the ability to choose the featureset they desire doesn't in any way suggest it is a less "forward looking" format.

This is great line Talk and one that people should also remember when making 360 vs PS3 comparisons :)

Dr_Kn0w

04-09-07, 01:51 PM

I am sorry but I can't comment on the schedule that way. Because if I said it, and something changed, then I get even more unhappy posts :).

Thanks for the info Amir. If I read into this further, I can gather that the HD DVD update is "supposed" to come BEFORE the May 7 Spring Dashboard update based on your response. Let me explain:

No one will be upset if you say the HD DVD update is coming AFTER the Spring Dashboard update, and it ends up coming early. BUT, people will be upset if you say it's coming before the Spring Dashboard update and it ends up coming after.

So I can safely assume the HD DVD update should (key word is "should") arrive before the May 7 Spring Dashboard update.

Talkstr8t

04-09-07, 01:56 PM

Out of all the Blu-ray disc's released and announced for release with specs regarding disc size, only about 20% are actually on BD50 discs while 80% of these are on BD25s.Of course - the first BD50 disc didn't show up until many months after format release. Yet it's much closer to 50/50 for discs released in 2007, and both Disney and SPE have announced an intent to primarily use BD50 (Disney even has two "BD75" releases upcoming). The trend is unmistakable, and invalidates any claim that BD50 is commercially unworkable.

- Talk

squidboy

04-09-07, 02:04 PM

Disney even has two "BD75" releases upcoming

Did I miss something? Are there now 3-layer BDs?

Talkstr8t

04-09-07, 02:05 PM

With a TrueHD HD DVD disc, the content author knows that the user can get all the bits of audio they can take. With a BD TrueHD + AC-3 disc, the contnent author will know that many customers with expensive players would just hear the AC-3.I don't understand your point. With TrueHD + AC3 (DD) a Blu-ray author knows that all current and future players will have access to, at a minimum, DD 5.1, and if their equipment supports it, TrueHD 5.1. An HD DVD author using only TrueHD knows that players available today will have access to, at a minimum, DD 5.1, and if their equipment supports it, TrueHD 5.1, though future players might only be able to render TrueHD 2.0. Further, over half of HD DVD owners won't have access to the lossless stream (since the Xbox 360 add-on can't output lossless), while almost all Blu-ray owners do have access to the lossless stream (since the PS3 can decode it or hand it off to an AVR for decoding).
That's why we see AC-3 + PCM discs, right?No, we see AC-3 + PCM discs because for most titles Blu-ray has ample capacity to skip the extra variable of TrueHD and go to the simplest lossless format, PCM (and save a few cents in royalties at the same time). As multi-language support or other capacity demands enter the picture Blu-ray can move to AC-3 + TrueHD (or DTS-HD MA by itself) with very little impact on either disc capacity/bandwidth nor consumer audio experience.

- Talk

John Williams

04-09-07, 02:06 PM

(Disney even has two "BD75" releases upcoming).
- Talk

OK, I'll bite -- is the "BD75" you are referring to a BD50 + BD25 (dual-BD) package, or...something else?

:confused:

-John

Talkstr8t

04-09-07, 02:09 PM

Did I miss something? Are there now 3-layer BDs?No, they're packaging a BD50 + a BD25.

BuGsArEtAsTy

04-09-07, 02:22 PM

Is BD-9 an official Blu-ray format? I'm getting mixed info on this. I know 3X HD DVD is an official HD DVD format.

(I think the above will be very important for consumers.)

Talkstr8t

04-09-07, 02:26 PM

Is BD-9 an official Blu-ray format? I'm getting mixed info on this. I know 3X HD DVD is an official HD DVD format.Yes, it's an official format.

benwaggoner

04-09-07, 02:27 PM

Amir,

Does the "Added MPEG-4 Part 2 video support: Up to 8 Mbps, Simple Profile with 2 channel AAC LC and Main Profiles." include support for XViD or DivX?
The Divx/Xvid codec is MPEG-4 Part 2, so yes. But what a "Divx file" means isn't standardized - lots of different audio codecs, wrappers, etcetera. This update will support MPEG-4 Part 2 data in a .mp4 file, but not in a .avi.

swanlee

04-09-07, 02:57 PM

"This update will support MPEG-4 Part 2 data in a .mp4 file, but not in a .avi."

That sucks as the vast majority of internet video is .avi format. Also an idea on streaming or disc support for plain old mpeg2 .mpg files?

I have some TS HD streams from my cable box in .mpg format that I'd like to stream to the 360 and do not want to convert them to .wmv as in trying to do this has been a disaster.

benwaggoner

04-09-07, 03:04 PM

I don't understand your point. With TrueHD + AC3 (DD) a Blu-ray author knows that all current and future players will have access to, at a minimum, DD 5.1, and if their equipment supports it, TrueHD 5.1. An HD DVD author using only TrueHD knows that players available today will have access to, at a minimum, DD 5.1, and if their equipment supports it, TrueHD 5.1, though future players might only be able to render TrueHD 2.0. Further, over half of HD DVD owners won't have access to the lossless stream (since the Xbox 360 add-on can't output lossless), while almost all Blu-ray owners do have access to the lossless stream (since the PS3 can decode it or hand it off to an AVR for decoding).

But just DD 5.1, right? With HD DVD, any user gets to start with TrueHD on the disc, so even if the audio output is getting downsampled to DTS 1.5 Mbps or whatever, a TrueHD track will sound better than the AC-3 track off any of the many BD players that don't support TrueHD.

Cova

04-09-07, 03:31 PM

The Divx/Xvid codec is MPEG-4 Part 2, so yes. But what a "Divx file" means isn't standardized - lots of different audio codecs, wrappers, etcetera. This update will support MPEG-4 Part 2 data in a .mp4 file, but not in a .avi.

Ok - the Xbox page over at http://www.xbox.com/en-US/community/news/2007/0408-im.htm gives us the new video codecs - but it raises some questions.

# H.264 video support: Up to 15 Mbps, Baseline, Main, and High (up to level 4.1) Profiles with 2 channel AAC LC and Main Profiles.
# Added MPEG-4 Part 2 video support: Up to 8 Mbps, Simple Profile with 2 channel AAC LC and Main Profiles.

First off, there is no mention at all of any container formats.

Second - what about mixing those video codec's with other audio codecs that are already supported on a 360. eg. H.264 video + DD 5.1 / AC3 audio?

Talkstr8t

04-09-07, 04:01 PM

But just DD 5.1, right?No, with the PS3 supporting in-player TrueHD decoding as well as exporting it via HDMI, most Blu-ray owners will have access to lossless sound.

My point is that what Blu-ray takes away by not mandating TrueHD (824MB to support a DD 5.1 track alongside a TrueHD track on a three-hour movie) it gives back many times over with an extra 20GB and 18Mb/s of bandwidth. And the further marketplace reality is that the majority of HD DVD owners don't have players capable of outputting the lossless track (the Xbox 360 add-on), while the majority of Blu-ray owners do (the PS3). On what point do you and I disagree?

benwaggoner

04-09-07, 04:03 PM

Frode

04-09-07, 04:16 PM

Transport streams do support H.264/AVC along with AC3 yes. It's fast becoming one of the major standards for DVB in Europe in particular. Do you know if there's any plans to support transport streams containing that - say for recorded content? 15Mbps max peak is also not going to cut it for those kind of streams, unless that quote above is average bitrate?

Nox

04-09-07, 04:58 PM

The Divx/Xvid codec is MPEG-4 Part 2, so yes. But what a "Divx file" means isn't standardized - lots of different audio codecs, wrappers, etcetera. This update will support MPEG-4 Part 2 data in a .mp4 file, but not in a .avi.

I don't know if it's even possible, but is there a way the 360 could be updated to support user based codecs in the future?

Users could add them to the 360 on their own if needed through a USB thumbdrive by selecting it and pressing an "add codec" button or something in the dashboard (just a crazy thought). In that case, Microsoft wouldn't have to officially 'support' every codec. The user base would supply their own. A "Remove codec" button could be used to delete it. Kind of like Windows very own "Add/remove Programs" in the control panel.

I hope Microsoft understands how close they are to ruling the entertainment room with the 360. If it could play all types of files like a PC the 360 would be the ultimate multimedia device.

RichB

04-09-07, 05:20 PM

I know this has been brought up before, but it just does not make sense to me that HD DVD cannot do resume play:

1) The player knows the position that I was playing because I can go back into the menu and return to the same spot.

2) I can start at the beginning and drag the time slider (at least in PowerDVD) to the correct position.

So a macro can be made to do it for me, right?

From a user standpoint, this is a major omission. Is it not in the player’s capabilities to provide this feature even if the disk does not?

- Rich

swanlee

04-09-07, 05:24 PM

Yep,

Note to AMIR if you guys ever support streaming of divx or xvid HD in .avi format from the pc to your Xbox 360 natively with no other conversion you have won the home media hub race.
The 360 would then become the ultimate media streaming appliance.

You guys are so close .avi support for divx and xvid and .mpg are all you need for the win.

Cova

04-09-07, 06:44 PM

What's been announced is what's been announced. H.264 + AC-3 isn't really a "standard" - I'm not even sure what spec would support both. Transport streams?

Yes - as has already been posted h.264+AC3 in a transport-stream is fast becoming the standard for HD broadcast over in europe. It's also just starting to show up in north america - Dish network is broadcasting h.264+AC3 transport streams.

Also - matroska supports pretty much any combination of video and audio you want to put into a single file. I do a lot of recording of MPEG2+AC3 transport streams over firewire from my DCT-6200. To save HD space I transcode the video to h.264 and usually just mux that + the original audio into a mkv file.

The ASF/WMV container I believe should also technically be able to have h.264 + AC3 in it. I know I've muxed VC1 + AC3 into a WMV before. Its far from standard, but if the 360 will demux it and send the audio+video off to their proper codecs for display, then I'd be happy :)

swanlee

04-09-07, 06:48 PM

I just want to stream HD divx and xvid .avi files and HD .mpg and .ts files using windows media player 11 to the Xbox 360. Then having to spend days converting things to .wmv with mixed results will be over

BuGsArEtAsTy

04-09-07, 06:52 PM

Ok - the Xbox page over at http://www.xbox.com/en-US/community/news/2007/0408-im.htm gives us the new video codecs - but it raises some questions.

First off, there is no mention at all of any container formats.
I've asked if they can provide dome clarification on that
I am not an insider, but if I may... A Microsoft insider (who doesn't post here) posted the container specs (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=986906#post986906) over at Doom 9:

Finally I gan give more details without getting into trouble.

Good news: h.264 is the same decoder used for HD-DVD. VC-1 is also multi threaded so higher bitrates should now work.

Bad news: h.264 profile support is 4.1 for HD and 5.0 and 5.1 for SD (720x576) content (we run out of memory for HD 5.0+ content). MPEG4 is SP only no ASP seatures are supported (B-Frame, QPEL etc.). Also no subtitle support.
Bad news: container support is MPEG4 and ASF, audio is WMA or AAC LC 2ch only.
Bad news: This updated functionality is for the dash video player only. MCX is a separate product and is completely unrelated to the dash.
However, I do note that the H.264 bitrate was decreased from 15 Mbps when announced earlier to 10 Mbps this afternoon. Is the currently listed "H.264 video support: Up to 10 Mbps peak, Baseline, Main, and High profiles with 2 channel AAC LC" correct?

EDIT:

Question has been answered elsewhere. The MS guy posted again that the numbers are not hard limits, and reemphasized that the H.264 decoding is using the same code as for HD DVD.

swanlee

04-09-07, 07:18 PM

Meatpopsicle

04-09-07, 09:24 PM

This is for Amir

Add me to the list of people who cannot get Children of Men or The Good Sheppard to work in the 360 Add-on. Both are recent Universal combo discs.

I have all the latest updates my 360 is fully connected to live all the time, these are the first two discs to flat out not play no matter what I do.

Are these two important titles going to be fixed to play on the 360 add-on with the next HD-DVD patch? I would hope your team makes these two a high priority as these are big deal Exclusive titles.

This has already been addressed in this thread. It isn't a problem with the 360 add-on, as they work fine in mine. Universal had some bad production runs. Keep returning them until you get a good one.

Man, I would love to stream divx/xvid avis.
There are an awful lot of posts the past couple pages that are not questions for insiders.
Again, this has been adressed before. Divx support is never coming. This is most likely due to Microsofts delicate partnerships with studios now, and allowing the most pirated formats on the internet to be streamed on the 360 would essentially be taking a leak on those partnerships. (same reason you are not likely to see them on the PS3 either). Whether you all want to admit it, you only want .ts files and divx files so you can more easily stream what you get off bittorent. :)

Amir, is it possible that you can make an all encompassing post addressing A) DIVX Support's possibility of EVER coming to the 360. And B) An update on universal's recent production issues? In fact, perhaps we should work on a little FAQ that addresses stuff like this. That way we can paste your answer, through PM, every time someone asks here that doesn't want to use the search feature. Feel free to address all your favorite repeated questions and lets build a FAQ! :)

benwaggoner

04-09-07, 11:02 PM

I don't know if it's even possible, but is there a way the 360 could be updated to support user based codecs in the future?

Users could add them to the 360 on their own if needed through a USB thumbdrive by selecting it and pressing an "add codec" button or something in the dashboard (just a crazy thought). In that case, Microsoft wouldn't have to officially 'support' every codec. The user base would supply their own. A "Remove codec" button could be used to delete it. Kind of like Windows very own "Add/remove Programs" in the control panel.

I hope Microsoft understands how close they are to ruling the entertainment room with the 360. If it could play all types of files like a PC the 360 would be the ultimate multimedia device.
Well, I think one of the best things about the Xbox 360 is that in never crashes. Allowing user-provided binary codec could have a huge stability risk.

That said, if the codec isn't that complex, perhaps something could be written in XNA targeting that could do something along these lines. We're working to open up the 360 where we can, while still preserving its unique advantages, and not forgetting that it's first and foremost a game machine.

http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb200104.aspx

John Haghighi

04-10-07, 12:13 AM

Well, I think one of the best things about the Xbox 360 is that in never crashes. Allowing user-provided binary codec could have a huge stability risk.

That said, if the codec isn't that complex, perhaps something could be written in XNA targeting that could do something along these lines. We're working to open up the 360 where we can, while still preserving its unique advantages, and not forgetting that it's first and foremost a game machine.

http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb200104.aspx

At the very least it would be nice to see support for FLAC

ccutrer

04-10-07, 01:29 AM

I'm confused as to how come new codecs supported by the dashboard are not immediately supported by the MCX software. I'm a very advanced win32 software developer, and while I realize the 360 isn't exactly just Windows for PowerPC architecture, it does have it roots in the NT kernel (forked sometime around Windows 2000, correct?).

Anyhow, on a Windows machine, (non-proprietary) a/v decoding is handled using DirectShow... a codec registers itself in the registry, and then is instantiated as an in-process COM component, pushing samples through the graph. Is the 360 a/v architecture anything like DirectShow? And if so, what pieces are missing that would not allow MCX to automatically instantiate and use new codecs? I would guess the 360 has no-to-minimal concept of a registry. So is codec instantiation limited to the controlling process directly linking to the codec? Or is there enough of a registry that it can simply pass the codec's CLSID to a COM-like system to be loaded (both cases requiring software, such as MCX, to be aware of all possible codecs before it can take advantage of them). Because obviously either auto-detection and selection of codecs is not supported, or the codecs are not being installed in a commonly accessible location.

While we're at it, I love "internals" information (learning how the NT Kernel really works inside intrigues me). I would assume the 360 has a very stripped down or non-existent security model (ACL's and authentication/authorization on objects such as files, processes, threads, synchronization primitives, etc.) (I know the FATX/FATX360 filesystem has no support for ACLs). My question is the process model: on the original xbox, when a game ran, it was an island unto itself with complete control over the system (with presumably either a very minimal kernel providing base system services, or that functionality statically linked in or dynamically linked, but all in a single process). With the advent of the ever-present dashboard in the 360, are there multiple concurrent processes on the 360? I would assume that's how background downloading during a game is implemented, but I could also see potential performance benefits if process barriers were removed. Maybe I should just try to get my hands on the XDK, so I could read about it all myself :).

In regards to the "never crashes" comment (from Ben, i think): it doesn't crash 99.xxxx% of the time :). It's only locked up a few times for me, and that's usually because of I/O errors with a scratched disk. There's no way you can actually truthfully say it "never crahes". Halting problem, anyone?

Thanks amir, for all the great info!

My setup:

Xbox 360 premium (launch day system)
HD DVD addon
Nintendo Wii
Playstation 3 (don't own any games; it's exclusively for Blu-Rays. Sorry, but Disney and Sony are kind of important studios for me to not be able to watch in hi-def :( )
Mitsubishi 73" WD73831 1080p DLP. 360 hooked up via VGA, and anxiously awaiting the VGA fixes so my darks don't bleed (I've calibrated everything else to at least look decent)
Crappy old Denon receiver that only knows Dolby Pro Logic

wickedbob

04-10-07, 01:37 AM

Well, I think one of the best things about the Xbox 360 is that in never crashes.

Whoa! Did you just say that?

http://forums.xbox.com/8294647/ShowPost.aspx

To make matters worse, my console (like two other of my friend's consoles) was lost by Microsoft Australia upon return under warranty. It was a hellish experience with appalling customer service for an $800 product.

Xbox 360 DOES crash and even worse than windows, it is unusable after it crashes.

Wouldn't it be smarter for windows media connect to transcode other file formats so that they can be effortlessly played on the xbox360?

madshi

04-10-07, 04:26 AM

What's been announced is what's been announced. H.264 + AC-3 isn't really a "standard" - I'm not even sure what spec would support both. Transport streams?
Almost all HD broadcasts in Europe are H.264 + AC-3. If you look through forums discussing worldwide HDTV broadcasts, you'll find that European broadcasts (especially PremiereHD broadcsts here in Germany) are considered to offer the best broadcast image quality you can get today. PremiereHD sends about 18Mbps average H.264. There are 2 ways to store H.264 and AC-3: Transport streams and Matroska (MKV).

So would you consider adding H.264/AC-3/DTS support in both TS and MKV containers?

That would be awesome and would actually make me consider an Xbox just for this feature. Without at least H.264/AC-3 in TS support the Xbox streaming is practically useless for all European HDTV consumers, cause we don't have any MPEG2 HD broadcasting here.

joeydoo

04-10-07, 07:18 AM

Hi Amir/Ben
Have you seen or heard anything about Warner's VC-1 encode of The Prestige due out next month? I've pre-ordered it already as I love the film. Is it going to hold up against the mpeg4AVC Blu-Ray disc?

Andy Pennell

04-10-07, 08:28 AM

So a macro can be made to do it for me, right?
Is it not in the player’s capabilities to provide this feature even if the disk does not?
- Rich

No. For std content discs then the player could do this in theory, as it is "DVD on steroids". However for advanced content discs there is way too much "state" apart from just the position of the AV stream for a player to reliably support this. I know: we tried on the Xbox, and it was incredibly unreliable. For auto-resume to work, title authors have to code it (e.g. Warner's bookmark feature) as only they have the knowledge of what state is truly required.

markrubin

04-10-07, 08:34 AM

RichB

04-10-07, 08:39 AM

No. For std content discs then the player could do this in theory, as it is "DVD on steroids". However for advanced content discs there is way too much "state" apart from just the position of the AV stream for a player to reliably support this. I know: we tried on the Xbox, and it was incredibly unreliable. For auto-resume to work, title authors have to code it (e.g. Warner's bookmark feature) as only they have the knowledge of what state is truly required.

Welcome Andy!!

How about if it just remembers the position and audio stream? But I guess you tried that. Perhaps it should be taken up at the next HD DVD standards meeting. Even requiring it on the disk would be a step in the right direction.

We have little children so there is not much TV time at night. It took us 3 nights to watch Kingdom of Heaven and it was great that PowerDVD could just resume. We also greatly appreciate this feature on TiVo.

- Rich

Andy Pennell

04-10-07, 08:49 AM

How about if it just remembers the position and audio stream? But I guess you tried that.
We have little children so there is not much TV time at night. - Rich

Yup, that was the failed attempt on Xbox. I hear you: I have 2 little ones myself. We have a Toshiba A1 so the turn-on time is super-painful, so I leave it Paused overnight when we try to watch a longer movie. That's why I prefer the titles with Bookmark support: good for demos too (well except for that turn-on time thing).

Caurus

04-10-07, 09:00 AM

Welcome Andy,

Are you a Microsoft insider from the xbox team? Can you tell us when the DTS update will arrive? Or at least if it comes before or after the spring update?

Rich Peterson

04-10-07, 09:03 AM

Please welcome Andy Pennell as our newest Insider
Welcome, Andy. Is your area of expertise the XBOX? Or what?

Edit: I see Caurus asked the same question just before me.

RichB

04-10-07, 09:07 AM

Yup, that was the failed attempt on Xbox. I hear you: I have 2 little ones myself. We have a Toshiba A1 so the turn-on time is super-painful, so I leave it Paused overnight when we try to watch a longer movie. That's why I prefer the titles with Bookmark support: good for demos too (well except for that turn-on time thing).

Pause :D

Would bookmark support be enough for the player to create and "automatic" bookmark when you hit stop?

- Rich

bobgpsr

04-10-07, 09:17 AM

Thanks for posting in the Insider's thread Andy. So good to get a Xbox 360 HD DVD add on developer here:
http://blogs.msdn.com/andypennell/archive/2007/02/16/xbox-360-hd-dvd-drive-now-in-black.aspx

What are your thoughts on a future Xbox AV Media Center type machine that will be able to support multichannel lossless playback?

(Assuming a re-design that supports enough internal channel bandwidth to get the PCM streams out the HDMI)

scaesare

04-10-07, 09:33 AM

Talk-

In this thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10253767&&#post10253767) regarding the state of BD-J development at the moment, there's a link (http://www.blueboard.com/bluray/qa_dragonslair.htm) to an interview with the author of the BD-J Dragon's Lair game. In that interview, he refers several times to a 2nd revision of the BD-J spec. For example, he says:

We decided to remove that code for fear it might hang in certain players but hope to implement it in the version 2 BD-J spec. We've also written all the Internet connectivity code but later found out that it is only in the version 2 spec so we're ready to go once we have a player to test it on. "

He clearly is indicating that there are portions the BD-J environment that aren't there yet as part of a version level, as opposed to indicating that the hardware isn't there yet.

As you know, I've been somewhat defending your characterization of BD-J as complete-but-wating-for-hardware in a few other threads, and you've done nothing to correct that.

Can you shed some light on to what this additional version of BD-J that's being referred to is?

kitzi

04-10-07, 09:36 AM

Any insiders: There is a "discussion" going on in another thread about PCM vs TrueHD/DTS HDMA. Is the following accurate...I admit I've never really thought much about it...But I had always assumed a 16bit DTHD track when decompressed would be identical to a 16bit LPCM track, but this fellow seems to imply that a 16bit DTHD track would decompress to the full 24bit master?

From YellowCows
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10258370&highlight=Thirdly#post10258370

Thirdly, with your reference to DTS HD-MA & Dolby TrueHD not being lossless because they use 16-bit word length - you are comparing apples to oranges. These use compressed algorithms to deliver...(say it with me now)...LOSSLESS bit-accurate soundtracks that are faithful to the master. Whatever bitrate of the TrueHD track - the decompressed output is (must be, by definition) bit-for-bit equivalent to the input signal. This is not the same as Linear PCM, which is an uncompressed format (a digital waveform) to whit the sampling rate is directly correlated to the fidelity of the signal. If it is sampled at any bitrate lower than that of the master, it is not lossless (again, by definition). Compressed codecs discard data by design, as that data is reconstructed by the decoder. Uncompressed formats reconstruct nothing, so any data lost through re-sampling at lower bitrates is lost forever. Uncompressed is one thing, Lossless is another.

paidgeek

04-10-07, 09:47 AM

kitzi

04-10-07, 09:53 AM

I think all the fuss is a matter of semantics about 16bit LPCM. The poster is making the point that if the master was 24bit in the first place that a 16bit LPCM audio master derived from it should not be called "lossless". I understand the logic, but what the OP does not acknowledge is that this assumes the original audio master was recorded with more than 16 bits in the first place. Many catalog titles have 16bit masters because that was what was available on the recording equipment of the day.

That part I got...but he went to great lengths to point out that 16bit Dolby TrueHD is lossless by definition, which to me would mean that that using his definition 16bit DTHD decompresses back to the 24bit master (assuming 24 bit is consistent with the original)

amirm

04-10-07, 10:20 AM

That part I got...but he went to great lengths to point out that 16bit Dolby TrueHD is lossless by definition, which to me would mean that that using his definition 16bit DTHD decompresses back to the 24bit master (assuming 24 bit is consistent with the original)
I think they are talking past each other and both are correct :). He is saying that you can't call PCM lossless automatically which is right. At the same time, if downsampled PCM is used as the source for TrueHD/DTS-MA-HD, that process is lossless but of course, lossy wrt to the original master.

Here is a bit of new information here though. TrueHD allows for very fine tuning of source resolution. Specifically, it allows increments of 1-bit whereas PCM in the BD spec appears to jump in 8-bit increment (from 16 to 24). As such, one can dial TrueHD to be the true resolution of the source, whether that is 17, 18, 19 or 22 bits. So one for example, can eliminate the low order 2-3 bits of a 24-bit signal which is basically noise. At decode time, these signals can be output at 24-bits for compatibility with common DACs. And of course, you get higher efficiency out of TrueHD than PCM.

All in all, the only thing that PCM is good for, is saving royalties for equipment maker. It is otherwise less optimal in multiple directions. For this reason, I have always found it odd that BDA made it optional. They have a more expensive format, but opt to save a few pennies this way. The premium for their OPU (optical pick up) easily dwarfs any royalty savings here.....

kitzi

04-10-07, 10:40 AM

I think they are talking past each other and both are correct :). He is saying that you can't call PCM lossless automatically which is right. At the same time, if downsampled PCM is used as the source for TrueHD/DTS-MA-HD, that process is lossless but of course, lossy wrt to the original master.

Thanks to you and Paidgeek...sounds like my understanding of the topic was OK...so in the sense that a 16bit sampling of a 24 bit master isn't lossless...LPCM isn't lossless and neither would be TrueHD (or DTSHDMA)...Still not sure I understand all I know about that... :)

Andy Pennell

04-10-07, 11:31 AM

What are your thoughts on a future Xbox AV Media Center type machine that will be able to support multichannel lossless playback?

Personally speaking I'd love one :) . However I know nothing about future Xbox plans, and even if I did I be fired for posting them.

I'm a developer on the HD DVD team at Microsoft. I have been working mostly on the Xbox versions for the last year or so, and we work with Xbox and codec folks from other teams to put it all together.

No, I can't tell you the release dates for anything: same reason as above.

Andy Pennell

04-10-07, 11:34 AM

Would bookmark support be enough for the player to create and "automatic" bookmark when you hit stop?

For a simple title, yes, that would be enough. However for more complex titles, no, as resources would not be loaded and any state stored in JScript would be missing when the player restarted. I have asked Peter to post some sample code to his HDi blog to help content authors out on this.

Phloyd

04-10-07, 12:02 PM

All in all, the only thing that PCM is good for, is saving royalties for equipment maker.

It is great that PCM is a cost saver - thanks for pointing that out. Considering that in most cases there is plenty of space for PCM on Bluray disc, this cost saving is a no brainer.

I am more interested though in why HD DVD claims to have 7.1 audio capability yet there is not a single title to support it. Not even a 6.1 title.

Do you know why this is? I know that some studios don't bother to mix beyond 5.1 but surely out of all of the HD DVD titles that have been released, one of them would have been a candidate for audio beyond 5.1

I have always been curious about this... is there a technical difficulty of some kind? Or are the studios that support HD DVD all against the idea of 6.1 or 7.1 audio?

benwaggoner

04-10-07, 12:08 PM

At the very least it would be nice to see support for FLAC
Well, that's an easy lossless transcode to WMA Lossless

efjay

04-10-07, 12:12 PM

Andy, welcome and thanks for participating.

Question for you and Amir also: why is the release date of the HD DVD patch so closely guarded? The Spring update which would be far more interesting to your competitors than the audio fixes the patch will bring have been detailed AND dated so why the reluctance to reveal the HD DVD fix date? Is it not finished yet? Or is it going to be released with/potentially after the Spring update? Announcing a release date and not meeting it wont be the end of the world: even Vista was delayed.

Will it at least be released before the Matrix hits on May 22? Thanks in advance.

bkilian

04-10-07, 01:40 PM

Pause :D

Would bookmark support be enough for the player to create and "automatic" bookmark when you hit stop?

- RichNot entirely. For instance, when we tested this on XBox, if you ejected/stopped a disc in a Universal title that had gone to it's screensaver, you would only be able to see the screensaver from then on. (the player jumped to the "bookmark" we had stored, which was the screensaver, but the title had no information on where the screensaver had come from, and so ignored any keypresses)

I'm sure it's a very nice screensaver, but I don't think you folks would want it to be the only video accessible on the disc ever again.

That's just the easiest to describe issue we had with it. HD DVD discs store a lot of program state, and all sorts of things can go wrong if we mess with that program state without understanding what it was for.

RichB

04-10-07, 01:55 PM

Not entirely. For instance, when we tested this on XBox, if you ejected/stopped a disc in a Universal title that had gone to it's screensaver, you would only be able to see the screensaver from then on. (the player jumped to the "bookmark" we had stored, which was the screensaver, but the title had no information on where the screensaver had come from, and so ignored any keypresses)

I'm sure it's a very nice screensaver, but I don't think you folks would want it to be the only video accessible on the disc ever again.

That's just the easiest to describe issue we had with it. HD DVD discs store a lot of program state, and all sorts of things can go wrong if we mess with that program state without understanding what it was for.

I understand and will leave it at that, but you should realize that coming from a company that writes operating systems that can hybernate, this seems like a cop out. Also, never forget, BD does this just fine and that is what the end user understands so in this regards, HD DVD appears to be the lesser product.

- Rich

grommet

04-10-07, 01:59 PM

Any comment on what UPnP AV server is intended to be used to stream the newly supported H.264/MPEG-4 content (in .MP4 containers) to the Xbox 360? WMP 11 doesn't currently support .mp4 (or.m4v, or .mov) out of the box, and it's NSS UPnP AV server (and the older WMC 2.0 server) only sends .wmv, .dvr-ms, .avi, & .mpg.

Is WMP 11 finally going to get a refresh so it has the H.264/MPEG-4 (and AAC) support that the Zune Software version already has? Or are we supposed to use the Zune Software to serve Xbox 360? (No idea what the file limits are on the Zune's XBox-only version of NSS... maybe it's all ready to go.)

Thanks.

amirm

04-10-07, 02:44 PM

It is great that PCM is a cost saver - thanks for pointing that out. Considering that in most cases there is plenty of space for PCM on Bluray disc, this cost saving is a no brainer.
You guys are getting good and sneaking in your advertisements in the form of questions :). NOT! :D

Think about it this way. If a disc gets pushed into being BD-50 instead of BD-25 because of PCM audio, the cost difference in producing one title is considerable more than the royalties for the TrueHD decoder. And of course, if you pay the royalty once, you save that money across all the titles! So I let you decide which system has made wiser choices here.

You may also want to look at Paid’s previous posts on this topic, where he was lamenting the storage expense of PCM audio, especially when the resolution goes up, and number of audio tracks adds up.

I am more interested though in why HD DVD claims to have 7.1 audio capability yet there is not a single title to support it… I have always been curious about this... is there a technical difficulty of some kind? Or are the studios that support HD DVD all against the idea of 6.1 or 7.1 audio?
If 6.1 is done using matrix technology, it really is no different than 5.1. So there is no extra effort or technical reason for not having it.

Beyond that, you already answered your own question ;). From what I understand, interest in have more channels than 5.1 in movies has dropped considerably. At last year's Home Theater Cruise, everyone was lamenting this fact and that we are back to 5.1. So perhaps the question is better put to studios, rather than us. We can certainly accommodate it in HD DVD.

Note that as you increase the number of channels, PCM starts to hurt even more as data rate scales linearly there whereas with Lossless compression, you gain even more efficiency since the other channels tend to have much data in them most of the time. And algorithms like TrueHD let you assign different resolution to extra channels as appropriate, unlike PCM where you are stuck with fixed multiples again.

Anyway, there is no way to spin lack of TrueHD decoders being mandatory being a good thing. Certainly not when you are a fan of the more expensive BD format :). As with interactivity, you once more see the power of CE companies in BDA, overriding studio wishes.

Edit: Just found out that unlike MLP, TrueHD forces unified sampling rate and resolution for all channels. Bummer!

BuGsArEtAsTy

04-10-07, 02:59 PM

amirm

04-10-07, 03:53 PM

I note that the HD DVD spec only mandates TrueHD 2.0. What does that mean exactly? There are several options I can think of:

1) The track simply doesn't work on bare bones HD DVD machines (none of which exist at the moment).
2) Only two channels of the TrueHD track are decoded.
3) All TrueHD channels are decoded, but the sound is remixed to 2 channel audio.
4) The DVD Forum will be changing the spec to require TrueHD 5.1 support (which wouldn't affect existing players).

Which of the above is true, if any? Options 3 (and 4) would be fine, but options 1 and 2 would be problems.

(I believe there were some comments on this before, but I'm not sure exactly where.)
First, you do get audio in all players. You can test this in the original Toshiba player before the 5.1 upgrade (I have verified this). TrueHD allows both downmixing at player level, or seperate stereo mix at encode time. It is the choice of author. I don't personally know how the titles are encoded though on this front.

And yes, it probably makes sense to change the spec to 5.1 as that is what we are all doing anyway in our products so there should be no pushback from anyone.

BuGsArEtAsTy

04-10-07, 04:05 PM

First, you do get audio in all players. You can test this in the original Toshiba player before the 5.1 upgrade (I have verified this). TrueHD allows both downmixing at player level, or seperate stereo mix at encode time. It is the choice of author. I don't personally know how the titles are encoded though on this front.
Thanks. That's good to know that all will get sound. But can you clarify the bolded part?

Are you saying that even the most basic bare bones HD DVD spec player would have reasonably full range 2-channel sound from a TrueHD 5.1 track? If so, that seems perfectly fine to me. ie. You wouldn't get two partial range channels and miss out on say something like centre channel dialogue volume, etc. right?

And what do you mean by "separate stereo mix at encode time"? Do you mean either a completely separate TrueHD track, or else that two of the 5.1 tracks actually form a complete stereo track pair?

I guess the simplest way to ask the question is if would make sense to have the primary audio as TrueHD 5.1 with no backup DD+ track at all, and still have fine stereo output for the el cheapo no-name players that people might use for the den or whatever when HD DVD players are <$50.

And yes, it probably makes sense to change the spec to 5.1 as that is what we are all doing anyway in our products so there should be no pushback from anyone.
Here's hoping. :p

John Haghighi

04-10-07, 04:41 PM

Well, that's an easy lossless transcode to WMA Lossless

Ben perhaps you answer this question:

Unfortunately not. WMA lossless is a stand-alone codec that while being a subset of WMA Pro, has its own syntax which is incompatible with WMA Pro decoders.

Note that WMA Lossless is just stereo (the version in WMA Pro is multi-channel). As such, the source can decode it and easily send it over coax/toslink, etc. and travel that way to the receiver, obviating the need to have a decoder there.

Does this mean the WMA Lossless can be decoded on the 360 today and sent over toslink as DD? What happens after the HD DVD update? Re-encode to WMA Pro?

What about the Elite 360, can WMA Lossless be decoded and sent over HDMI as two channel PCM?

John Haghighi

04-10-07, 04:55 PM

Think about it this way. If a disc gets pushed into being BD-50 instead of BD-25 because of PCM audio, the cost difference in producing one title is considerable more than the royalties for the TrueHD decoder. And of course, if you pay the royalty once, you save that money across all the titles! So I let you decide which system has made wiser choices here.

How do the royalties work for the advanced audio codecs? Are they per device for CE manufactures, and on software titles for studios are they per each disk or a flat fee for a given title?

Anyway, there is no way to spin lack of TrueHD decoders being mandatory being a good thing

Amir is mandatory decoding of 5.1 TrueHD a good thing or mandatory decoding and outputing of 5.1 TrueHD?

benwaggoner

04-10-07, 06:35 PM

Ben perhaps you answer this question:

Does this mean the WMA Lossless can be decoded on the 360 today and sent over toslink as DD? What happens after the HD DVD update? Re-encode to WMA Pro?

What about the Elite 360, can WMA Lossless be decoded and sent over HDMI as two channel PCM?
Sorry, my bad. As in all things, if Amir and I say different things, believe Amir :).

But do a maximum quality WMA Pro encode from your FLAC, and you won't hear a difference.

MidnightWatcher

04-10-07, 07:05 PM

Amirm: Can you please comment on this article (http://news.digitaltrends.com/news_printerfriendly12663.html), specifically, the reference to the possibility that HD DVD add-on drives may be revoked if the latest firmware breach is confirmed? Wouldn't this also render the XBox 360 incapable of HD DVD playback if the add-on is revoked?

paidgeek

04-10-07, 07:35 PM

All in all, the only thing that PCM is good for, is saving royalties for equipment maker. It is otherwise less optimal in multiple directions. For this reason, I have always found it odd that BDA made it optional. They have a more expensive format, but opt to save a few pennies this way. The premium for their OPU (optical pick up) easily dwarfs any royalty savings here.....

This is incorrect, according to Dolby, once the license is taken for legacy Dolby Digital, there is no additional fee for including Dolby THD.

Isn't it just as odd, that HD-DVD only requires output of two channels of decoded lossless? This sort of kills any benefit of having DD THD mandatory don't you think?

We are seeing BD players like the Panasonic provide software updates to add lossless capability. From your post last week the XBOX 360 cannot be updated to support the output of a fully decoded 5.1 lossless or LPCM stream correct? Judging from the response to LPCM and lossless streams by the consumers, this was an unfortunate place to save BOM costs.

Phloyd

04-10-07, 07:56 PM

If 6.1 is done using matrix technology, it really is no different than 5.1. So there is no extra effort or technical reason for not having it.

Beyond that, you already answered your own question ;). From what I understand, interest in have more channels than 5.1 in movies has dropped considerably.

That is a shame. It might be interesting to see if movies from Dreamworks like Chicken Run that had 6 channel mixes retain these for the HD releases.

Anyway, there is no way to spin lack of TrueHD decoders being mandatory being a good thing.

Funny, I don't recall mentioning TrueHD at all in my question...

Now that you mention TrueHD though, I heard from somewhere (don't recall where exactly) that TrueHD on HD DVD was limited to 5.1 (while DD+ could go to 7.1)... It would seem odd to me if this limitation existed. Is this the case, or is what I heard false? Maybe it was the MLP version of TrueHD that was 5.1 limited...?

amirm

04-10-07, 10:12 PM

This is incorrect, according to Dolby, once the license is taken for legacy Dolby Digital, there is no additional fee for including Dolby THD.
So if you were not cheap, what were you? :D Of course, we both know the decision for these things was made 2-3 years ago at a time where people didn't the true cost. You were not at DVD Forum SC meeting where the number 1 objection was the royalty cost and CE folks almost shot down the mandatory status of TrueHD. Thankfully, they did not prevail.

Isn't it just as odd, that HD-DVD only requires output of two channels of decoded lossless? This sort of kills any benefit of having DD THD mandatory don't you think?
It is not odd at all. Because if 2-channel was not made mandatory, I assure you that 100% HD DVD installed base would not be implementing 5.1 either (look at DTS-MA-HD). Once one has the hardware/MIPS to do 2-channel, going to 5.1 is not a big reach. So nothing was "killed" in this process. This is a rated G posting after all :D.

We are seeing BD players like the Panasonic provide software updates to add lossless capability.
So what do I do with the Samsung? Or Pioneer? Or wait, your own Sony player? Hear the sound of silence? Or do you need to have a duplicate PCM track for the disc for the rest of your installed base? And if you do that, tell me again why you would want to put a lossless track on the same disc?

From your post last week the XBOX 360 cannot be updated to support the output of a fully decoded 5.1 lossless or LPCM stream correct? Judging from the response to LPCM and lossless streams by the consumers, this was an unfortunate place to save BOM costs.
Remember, the discs are forever, the players are not. With lossless mandatory, we see Warner discs in HD DVD having TrueHD and BD version having only low rate DD. You can always buy an HD DVD player to get lossless sound. It is a hell of a lot harder to find the missing bits in the BD DD version of the same track with a new player ;).

amirm

04-10-07, 10:27 PM

How do the royalties work for the advanced audio codecs? Are they per device for CE manufactures, and on software titles for studios are they per each disk or a flat fee for a given title?
I don't know that the royalites are public so I can't disclose the amounts. Go ahead and ask Don if he can disclose more details than I can.

Amir is mandatory decoding of 5.1 TrueHD a good thing or mandatory decoding and outputing of 5.1 TrueHD?
By far decoding. Because that determines what is on disc. Most consumers will go through a few players especially as prices come down and performance improves. But you hate to go buy the same movie again just to get a lossless track on it. At least I do.

Without us and Toshiba decoding 5.1 TrueHD, there would have been far less lossless tracks on discs (again, look at BD discs from Warner). Or IME, etc.

Donnie Eldridge

04-10-07, 10:27 PM

Paidgeek,

Any chance you've had a peek at Desperado? Is it in the pipe for this Summer? What kind of shape was/is it in?

amirm

04-10-07, 10:29 PM

Does this mean the WMA Lossless can be decoded on the 360 today and sent over toslink as DD? What happens after the HD DVD update? Re-encode to WMA Pro?
WMA Lossless is supported in the 360 but not broadly. Its decodec locally only if it accompanies a video as its sound track. You can also stream it remotely from the PC. But in this case, our server on the PC decodes it into WAV before sending it to 360 (or any other DLNA receiver).

But yes, in both cases you can output losslessly over HDMI, etc. because this is only 2-channels and there is enough bandwidth on that on both output ports.

There is no need to re-encode into WMA Pro.

What about the Elite 360, can WMA Lossless be decoded and sent over HDMI as two channel PCM?
Yes, see above.

amirm

04-10-07, 10:32 PM

Clark Burk

04-10-07, 10:38 PM

Paidgeek, Any update on a new firmware update for the Sony BDP-S1? We're still waiting for the update to correct the 24P problem with AVC discs.

amirm

04-10-07, 10:42 PM

Thanks. That's good to know that all will get sound. But can you clarify the bolded part?

Are you saying that even the most basic bare bones HD DVD spec player would have reasonably full range 2-channel sound from a TrueHD 5.1 track? If so, that seems perfectly fine to me. ie. You wouldn't get two partial range channels and miss out on say something like centre channel dialogue volume, etc. right?

And what do you mean by "separate stereo mix at encode time"? Do you mean either a completely separate TrueHD track, or else that two of the 5.1 tracks actually form a complete stereo track pair?
The algorithm is actually quite smart in this instance. What is encoded is not discreet 5.1. Rather, there is a core stereo encode which all players decode and play. 5.1 is a secondary lossless layer which provides all the missing information to reproduce the 5.1 signal. So it is a scalable codec wrt to channels. This provides the optimal stereo and 5.1 without compromise and you are not getting partial decode of a 5.1 mix in L&R channels.

I guess the simplest way to ask the question is if would make sense to have the primary audio as TrueHD 5.1 with no backup DD+ track at all, and still have fine stereo output for the el cheapo no-name players that people might use for the den or whatever when HD DVD players are <$50.

Here's hoping. :p
Yes indeed. :)

amirm

04-10-07, 10:45 PM

Amirm or other MS insider,
I have a Samsung ln-s4095d will the update help with the washed out colors that the vga cable produces on this tv?
It should.

amirm

04-10-07, 11:06 PM

A thought just occured to me, that since there was some theory (I don't believe it was ever confirmed) that the reason 1080P resolution timings don't work with CRTs (because of a reduced blanking interval) is that the 'Ana' analog chip was being maxed out, and did not have the the bandwidth to increase the horizontal blanking to normal timings.
OK, it took me a bit of time to research this :). Ana works up to 150 Mhz Pixel clock. If the CRT has 1080p listed in the EDID, we’ll use it subject to that constraint (with the Fall 2006 AU). If it doesn’t, then we assume the 138.5MHz RB VESA CVT generated timing (since that’s the standard for VGA). Unfortunately, some displays don’t comply with this standard. So in the upcoming spring update you will be able to select between 138.5 MHz and 148.5MHz CEA770.3. Unfortunately, there are some displays which use 154 Mhz reduced blanking clock frequency for 1080p. We won’t be able to support these.

The way you select the alternate timings is by declining the automatic (EDID generated) timing. This is available for the following resolutions: 1024x768, 1280x768, 1280x720, 1920x1080. Using these, we are hoping the spring udpate should be able to support a lot more displays over VGA.

Secondarily, if it is a bandwidth constraint as theorized on the older 360 models, would there be a possibility of a future update bringing a reduced horizontal resolution 1080P mode, to bring the necessary bandwidth in line with what is available to the system? Since my only other option is 1280x720P anyways (unless a 1080i VGA option is added), and 1920x1080i seems to work fine, then something around 960x1080P should be possible. That is giving up half the horizontal detail, but I'd rather lose some horizontal resolution than lose resolution in both axes - at least it would be an even 2:1 reduction and not fractional 1.5:1. As long as the timings matched 1080P60, it shouldn't matter to display devices if the horizontal picture data was 960 'double wide' pixels.
I am hoping the new alternative timings work for you so you don’t have to resort to this :).

Someone asked about tearing in PAL mode. We think that could also be fixed with the above timing selections but the team is double checking.

bigblueit

04-10-07, 11:32 PM

Someone asked about tearing in PAL mode. We think that could also be fixed with the above timing selections but the team is double checking.

Yep that was me!

Thanks for chasing this up Amir. If you can let us know when the team has confirmed this, that would be much appreciated.

Thanks again.
Harry

BioSehnsucht

04-10-07, 11:36 PM

OK, it took me a bit of time to research this :). Ana works up to 150 Mhz Pixel clock. If the CRT has 1080p listed in the EDID, we’ll use it subject to that constraint (with the Fall 2006 AU). If it doesn’t, then we assume the 138.5MHz RB VESA CVT generated timing (since that’s the standard for VGA). Unfortunately, some displays don’t comply with this standard. So in the upcoming spring update you will be able to select between 138.5 MHz and 148.5MHz CEA770.3. Unfortunately, there are some displays which use 154 Mhz reduced blanking clock frequency for 1080p. We won’t be able to support these.

The way you select the alternate timings is by declining the automatic (EDID generated) timing. This is available for the following resolutions: 1024x768, 1280x768, 1280x720, 1920x1080. Using these, we are hoping the spring udpate should be able to support a lot more displays over VGA.

This sounds great! Except what is confusing is the mention of EDID - I wasn't aware the 360 could poll EDID data via DDC2 on the VGA connector, and since the HDMI model isn't available yet we can't be speaking of that in the past tense yet :)

zoro

04-10-07, 11:39 PM

amir may I ask? if xbox 360 add on can play back pal discs and is region free for SD DVDS?

amirm

04-10-07, 11:50 PM

amir may I ask? if xbox 360 add on can play back pal discs and is region free for SD DVDS?
I believe it can. Unfortunately, it is not region free for SD discs. Wherever you bought your console, determines the region for SD DVDs.

paidgeek

04-10-07, 11:53 PM

Paidgeek,

Any chance you've had a peek at Desperado? Is it in the pipe for this Summer? What kind of shape was/is it in?

I have not seen the master and it is not on the current schedule.

paidgeek

04-10-07, 11:55 PM

Paidgeek, Any update on a new firmware update for the Sony BDP-S1? We're still waiting for the update to correct the 24P problem with AVC discs.

I have had no news on this in the last few days.

JadedRaverLA

04-10-07, 11:57 PM

paidgeek -- any idea if Rent (which is out on Blu-ray in Japan) will be getting a stateside release any time soon?

Ian_S

04-11-07, 01:52 AM

OK, let's take a leap of faith for a moment and assume that BD-Live is here and working with 1GB of persistent storage...

Can anyone from either side explain how for example you would be able to download additional language tracks or perhaps even alternative endings on any player that sticks to each spec's mandatory persistent storage?

Presumably as a consumer, if I'm downloading that content I do not want to have to re-download it everytime I want to watch a film as some content such as language tracks is going to take some time to DL.

Are any players on either side going to be capable of the more interesting uses for internet connectivity unless they go way above the mandatory requirements? If so, what? And the "Kevin Collins Bookmark" is not really much of a use... it's a bit like turning up at someone's house with a slide projector and 1000 slides...

Also, are there any plans from either side to have a unified access point with a consistent user access model or are we going to get subjected to 101 different ways to get to online studio content with totally different look and feels?

amirm

04-11-07, 02:22 AM

Ian_S

04-11-07, 02:52 AM

Ian, we have nothing to do with BD_live. So I am not sure who you are asking to comment.

But quick correction. We showed downloads of new trailers and such at CES, not just bookmark sharing. And we did so with currently shipping players, including Gen 1 Toshiba. Once downloaded, the new content gets integrated into the title menu system and stay with you until you delete them. So no need for re-download.

As to other interesting uses, we are not going to disclose them in front of our competition :). You will see them in upcoming titles though.Sorry Amir, my comment at the beginning about assuming BD-Live was here was to try and sidestep any comments along the lines of we can do that today, so and so can't... didn't work!!

As such I was hoping for each side to explain how their format would handle those things.

So to take HD-DVD for example, with 128MB of perisistent storage, about 1 trailer at decent resolution would fill it. It's not going to take much content to mean we'll be downloading and deleteing on a regular basis. And I'm not being picky here, I don't see 1GB being much use either for HD download content.

Downloading trailers is hardly "new", Apple's Quicktime site has let us do this for some time now in HD and to a device that has some sensible storage...

So, unless the target device is a PC, PS3 or Xbox 360 (with HDD) where is all this wonderful content going to go?? You yourself have said that HD-DVD can provide the ability to download other language soundtracks that do not fit on the disc. A 640kbps DD track far exceeds the mandatory storage requirement of HD-DVD and only just fits one in 1GB...

Also will we get a unified site per format for example an HD-DVD/BD equivalent of Xbox Live or PSN or is it every studio for themselves??

amirm

04-11-07, 03:14 AM

So to take HD-DVD for example, with 128MB of perisistent storage, about 1 trailer at decent resolution would fill it. It's not going to take much content to mean we'll be downloading and deleteing on a regular basis. And I'm not being picky here, I don't see 1GB being much use either for HD download content.
Right. That is why there are USB ports on Toshiba players. For $100, you can get a 120 gig USB drive from Amazon today. And with a bit of software, you can share the drives you already have in the home at no additional cost.

Downloading trailers is hardly "new", Apple's Quicktime site has let us do this for some time now in HD and to a device that has some sensible storage...
On computers, sure. On CE devices, this is new. As you have noticed, your DVDs from 10 years ago, have trailers for movies in the "future", which have come out 9 years back :). Still, this was just demonstration of what the technology can do. Real applications may or may not match what we have shown.

The key thing to note here is that the experience on a “ROM” disc for the first time, is extensible. This lets us extend and experience well into the future. We could do away with multiple disc releases for example. You could get the super, extended, special edition, new ending, with just a digital download on the first edition you bought. You could even sample before you buy! The possibilities are endless. And that was exactly our goal and that of studios in defining HD DVD interactivity and making its critical components mandatory.

It will take us a while to develop all of these ideas, learn from customers like you what works and what doesn’t. Rome was not built in a day for sure :). But good news is that we have nice platforms which can be software upgraded and easy to program which should ease adoption and speed new scenario development.

So, unless the target device is a PC, PS3 or Xbox 360 (with HDD) where is all this wonderful content going to go??
Of course we can do all of this in devices you list. The trick is to have a new way which is truly platform neutral. This is amazing feat when you consider how many subsystems a digital download and playback can touch. Even having the same thing work on Mac and Windows is hard, let alone when you throw a bunch of CE equipment in the mix.

From studio point of view, this is super important. As you have noticed, there are HD movies available in BD/HD DVD which are not available to any PC or game console. The studios want to target CE devices, as much as we love to think the world surrounds PCs and game consoles :p.

Also will we get a unified site per format for example an HD-DVD/BD equivalent of Xbox Live or PSN or is it every studio for themselves??
Well, nothing in the spec forces anyone toward a single solution if that is what you are asking.

Ian_S

04-11-07, 03:48 AM

Thanks Amir...
Right. That is why there are USB ports on Toshiba players. For $100, you can get a 120 gig USB drive from Amazon today. And with a bit of software, you can share the drives you already have in the home at no additional cost.Hmm... on PC's etc, addon hard discs with more cables, boxes and power bricks is just about ok. But on a CE hi-fi device such as the Toshiba's I'm not convinced. To have a USB HDD plugged in, the front flap has to be permanently down, the USB ports are on the front, it would look quite frankly ugly. Do you think such a solution is going to get wife approval? PC's in studies are tolerated by those who control the decor. Items that you expect to see in the living room have to pass much stricter criteria... I would suggest you get some more female dominated focus groups together.

On the technical front, can all the existing Toshiba players accept and make available HDD's thourgh USB as persistent storage? How do I select the HDD for HD-DVD storage on an Xbox 360? Would I be right in assuming that such devices only have to support a 15mbps transfer rate according to HD-DVD specs?

EDIT: Also are you saying the Toshiba's can mount network storage from a PC?
The key thing to note here is that the experience on a “ROM” disc for the first time, is extensible. This lets us extend and experience well into the future. We could do away with multiple disc releases for example. You could get the super, extended, special edition, new ending, with just a digital download on the first edition you bought. You could even sample before you buy! The possibilities are endless. And that was exactly our goal and that of studios in defining HD DVD interactivity and making its critical components mandatory.How would that work using downloaded content for say alternative main feature endings that may require full feature bandwidth for audio and video? Can the persistent storage be used for content that requires more than 15mbps bandwidth which presumably such a feature would?
It will take us a while to develop all of these ideas, learn from customers like you what works and what doesn’t. Rome was not built in a day for sure :). But good news is that we have nice platforms which can be software upgraded and easy to program which should ease adoption and speed new scenario development.On the first thing we agree, it is early days and no-one, us consumers included, really know what will or won't press the right buttons content wise.

However, don't you feel it is pushing things a little to pretend that for either format, any machine that adheres to the minimum spec is really capable going forward of being ready for what may come, and that in reality, in 2-3 years you will need a much more sophisticated device to use such enchancements if they ever take off?

Take HD-DVD's car insurance quote possibility in Fast and Furious. Apart from the fact that the last thing people want to do is stop the film to answer enough questions for a quote there and then, how on earth would you enter the information? It takes forever on a PC to enter all the info. It's just not realistic to expect anyone using nothing more than a remote control to attempt that.

I feel like we're being fed lame examples thus far, trailers, adverts, and other stuff for which the hardware is not there. (The most useful thing about an ethernet port on an HD player thus far has been the ability to perform a firmware upgrade online. So far, it's looking favourite to remain the best use and ironically it's in neither specs list of features.) In a CE device it has to be a seamless solution, which leads to...
Well, nothing in the spec forces anyone toward a single solution if that is what you are asking.I think Xbox live is very good. Consistent interface one place to go to get stuff, simple to navigate and hopefully somewhere you feel safe to explore and buy... Now assuming that not all additional content will be free, it strikes me that you ought to be thinking of a similar environment for HD disc interaction... So the question is, is anyone actually thinking along those lines? Again, remember, on a CE device it needs to be simple and slick... A free for all on interactivity will be just the opposite.

9158

04-11-07, 06:40 AM

Amir, will the 360 Elite output 768p (1366x768 or 1360x768) on HDMI for movies and games?

Thanks

RichB

04-11-07, 07:27 AM

Can any HD or BD insider explain the lack of internal BD-ROM and HD DVD ROM drives. Many of us have been able to build HD capable machines but the price has been high.

Why are they only selling external drives for HD DVD and writers for Blu-Ray?
Are there not enough blue lasers to go around?

- Rich

Edit: Are they coming?

MikeZ1998

04-11-07, 07:31 AM

The key thing to note here is that the experience on a “ROM” disc for the first time, is extensible. This lets us extend and experience well into the future. We could do away with multiple disc releases for example. You could get the super, extended, special edition, new ending, with just a digital download on the first edition you bought. You could even sample before you buy! The possibilities are endless. And that was exactly our goal and that of studios in defining HD DVD interactivity and making its critical components mandatory.
IMHO, the most valuable HD interactivity feature is the extra subtitle download.
It allows watching foreign movies in a lossless way.

Current Japanese HD-DVD titles don’t have English subtitles.
Is it possible to add extra subtitle streams to these titles?

AES256

04-11-07, 08:22 AM

Thanks Amir...

/snip interesting exchange between Amir and Ian (for space purposes :) )

Amir, Ben and other insiders. The only storage medium idea/concept that I've found so far that would contain the kind of capacity that we'd really want i.e. 500GB plus, and that would be "transparent to the decor" is NAS (networked storage). And ideally wireless connectivity to it from the CE device (as well as your, probably existing, computer equipment).

A brief picture of this:
Your NAS would be located in "the computer room" with the other "noisy computer stuff", the wireless card would be internal to the CE equipment (such as is the case with most mobos nowadays), or invisible at the rear of it (like is the case with the 360), and the 500GB plus NAS (ideally mirrored RAID with hot-swappable discs in case a of disc failure) would be the central repository of all your computer Word, Excel etc. documents, family photos and HD-downloaded additional content etc.

The usual range/placement/bandwidth contraints/reliability/etc. issues with wireless may come into play, so maybe substitute wired instead.
Nonetheless, nice and neat.

BUT

To put it mildly, this is not an average non-techie setup or easily accessible and understandable technology; certainly not to deploy in the home.
And it's relatively expensive although getting more and more affordable nowadays, what with companies like Buffalo and ReadyNAS bringing out products. And the ever-decreasing Hard Drive prices, of course.

Yes. More and more of the general population are getting more familiar with computer and networking technology; especially the "youngens" who are brought up with this in school and at home.
But many people just want a "black box". A washing machine. An oven. With some buttons on the front and that's it. And no, the water pipe and gas pipe were connected by the plummer and the gas man respectively :D

So what does the HD industry have in mind? (if you're allowed to disclose such things at this point in time)

Are we maybe heading towards a "two-tier" user base? "Basic tier" being those who play their discs in their players and nothing more. And the second "tier" being those who have the skill/understanding and or put the effort in to use their shiny new HD CE equipment like a networked computer.

I'd be interested as to the industry's strategy and how it plans on "spreading the word"/influencing people to start viewing/treating their CE appliance more like a computer and using it as such.

Caurus

04-11-07, 09:14 AM

To the Microsoft insiders:

Is it really true that the dynamic compression bugfix will not come before the fall update or the spring update 2008?

chad_cincy

04-11-07, 10:53 AM

http://eetimes.com/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=198701588

-Is this why Managed Copy has been MIA so far?
-Is this why the word "Mandatory" has been dropped from any references?
-Is the entire idea of MC in jeopardy? MMC?
-Any additional comments?

I understand these are probably difficult to answer right now. Any information you can provide is always greatly appreciated.

Thank you,
Chad

amirm

04-11-07, 11:27 AM

We are deviating from Q/A format too much :). I will comment once more but we probably need to move on…
But on a CE hi-fi device such as the Toshiba's I'm not convinced. To have a USB HDD plugged in, the front flap has to be permanently down, the USB ports are on the front, it would look quite frankly ugly. Do you think such a solution is going to get wife approval? PC's in studies are tolerated by those who control the decor. Items that you expect to see in the living room have to pass much stricter criteria... I would suggest you get some more female dominated focus groups together.
Well, I am not sure it is the wife that is asking for all of these extra features right now. :) Once a market develops for such features, I am sure people will build devices with USB jacks in the back, etc. And you can always put away the hard disk if you don’t need something that is on it. And per my earlier note, you can also use a network share with a bit of software.

On the technical front, can all the existing Toshiba players accept and make available HDD's thourgh USB as persistent storage? How do I select the HDD for HD-DVD storage on an Xbox 360? Would I be right in assuming that such devices only have to support a 15mbps transfer rate according to HD-DVD specs?
The capabilities are there. Whether it is enabled or not, I don't know (see more below).

But yes, downloaded content gets its own bandwidth because it is not fighting for access on the primary (mechanical) device. So in essence, you get 45 mbit/sec total. We also hope to get the 15 mbit/sec relaxed since it is artificial and very low wrt to the speed of secondary storage.

EDIT: Also are you saying the Toshiba's can mount network storage from a PC?
Again, all the architecture is there. And more importantly, the hardware is there. That is why I said extra software is needed to enable it.

How would that work using downloaded content for say alternative main feature endings that may require full feature bandwidth for audio and video?
The current spec assumes concurrent playback and hence the 15 mbit/sec. If one is just playing the extra content by itself from secondary storage, there is no reason to limit it to anything because memory/hard disk is actually faster than optical. Certainly the hardware just works as it is able to read 30+ mbit/sec from the optical disc.

Can the persistent storage be used for content that requires more than 15mbps bandwidth which presumably such a feature would?
This would be non-compliant today even though it would work perfectly. Indeed, one of the HD DVD emulators works by loading things onto a hard disk and running it from there. But we hope the spec can change. Even if it does not, just like having hard disk is above and beyond the spec but works just fine, one can imagine higher rate playback be allowed here just the same.

However, don't you feel it is pushing things a little to pretend that for either format, any machine that adheres to the minimum spec is really capable going forward of being ready for what may come, and that in reality, in 2-3 years you will need a much more sophisticated device to use such enchancements if they ever take off?
Sure, more optimal devices will be built including those with hard disk built-in, as we have seen with DVD recorders. But it is important to have the capability in every player, even if it is less than optimal. Content owners worry about liability and returned products if they advertize a feature and some segment of the people can’t experience it. It is fine if the user chooses to not go certain route (e.g. if they don’t like to hook up a cable to the front of the box). But less OK if they want to do it, but can’t. Witness the situation BD format is in, with titles advertizing features which cannot playback on some players. I am pretty positive they will face some grief at some point (there have been amazing examples of this in the past with DVD).

Take HD-DVD's car insurance quote possibility in Fast and Furious. Apart from the fact that the last thing people want to do is stop the film to answer enough questions for a quote there and then, how on earth would you enter the information? It takes forever on a PC to enter all the info. It's just not realistic to expect anyone using nothing more than a remote control to attempt that.
Why you assume a remote control? Indeed, the USB jacks are in the front on Toshiba for new input devices. Wireless keyboards would be easy to hook up. But I agree personally that such advanced scenarios such as messaging, etc. would be best on a PC. Per above though, it is important to allow the possibility still, both for consumer sake, and for CE company sake (so that they don’t think we built a format just for PC use).

I feel like we're being fed lame examples thus far, trailers, adverts, and other stuff for which the hardware is not there. (The most useful thing about an ethernet port on an HD player thus far has been the ability to perform a firmware upgrade online. So far, it's looking favourite to remain the best use and ironically it's in neither specs list of features.) In a CE device it has to be a seamless solution, which leads to...
Well, a lot of people don’t agree with your feeling :). The #1 feature studios want to target is the networking feature. They are itching to keep their titles fresh. That has been a huge problem with DVDs getting stale. They want the advantages of the internet, in a more packages, predictable way. In every HD DVD meeting, we show the interactivity and many people are impressed when they see all the capabilities there, and a number of people go and buy players because of it. I think folks in the BD comp tend to justify away features because they don’t have it. But this doesn’t make the features less valuable. These are definitely market drivers. Not for everyone. But even a 10% increase in interest amounts to big business here.

amirm

04-11-07, 11:29 AM

To the Microsoft insiders:

Is it really true that the dynamic compression bugfix will not come before the fall update or the spring update 2008?
No it is not true. We have said that the update will come in "early to mid-spring" and we are tracking to that.

eq_shadimar

04-11-07, 11:31 AM

amirm

04-11-07, 11:33 AM

http://eetimes.com/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=198701588

-Is this why Managed Copy has been MIA so far?
No. There are seperate organizations, licensens, etc. governing AACS used in HD DVD and CSS used in DVD.

-Is this why the word "Mandatory" has been dropped from any references?
I am not aware of anyone dropping that term.

-Is the entire idea of MC in jeopardy? MMC?
Jeopardy is too strong of a word. But at some level, AACS has been very busy with the reported breaches, substantially delaying progress on creating a final license. In additoin, MMC has been an issue that has been hard to resolve, in a license agree language.

-Any additional comments?

I understand these are probably difficult to answer right now. Any information you can provide is always greatly appreciated.

Thank you,
Chad
Once we allowed players/titles to get out without MMC, we opened up the possibility of slow progress and that is what we are experiencing. We as always are strong supporters of MMC. We hope the rest of the industry sees the same and works hard to finish the agreements allowing this capability. The demand is certainly there from legitimate users.

amirm

04-11-07, 11:36 AM

Would it be possible with the technology in HD-DVD (or Blu-ray) players to have playlists of movie trailers and to have that playlist play automatically before a movie starts? Currently I am using a HTPC to play my custom theater intro and selected movie trailers when having a movie night. To have this ability in the CE player would be awesome.
Yes, absolutely. Even the default playlist in the movie can change dynamically should you add extra content to it. But for sure, you can have user created playlists driving the experience in HDi.

Second question for HD-DVD insiders. Paidgeek is pretty active with pursuing movable subtitles for those of us with constant height systems (2.35 screens etc..) and he even has a thread going in the 2.35 subforum. Have any inroads been made with studios producing HD-DVD content in regards to this feature?

Thank you in advance for your time!

Laters,
Jeff
Yes, there are at least two titles coming out from Europe which not only let you have three positions for the subtitles, but two different sizes: one for TVs and such and the other for larger screen projectors. You will be able to select all of these variations from the remote.

swanlee

04-11-07, 11:38 AM

"Amirm: Can you please comment on this article, specifically, the reference to the possibility that HD DVD add-on drives may be revoked if the latest firmware breach is confirmed? Wouldn't this also render the XBox 360 incapable of HD DVD playback if the add-on is revoked?"

If they did anything even remotely close to revoking the use of the drives their would be tons of class action lawsuits. This would be like suicide for HD-DVD.

amirm

04-11-07, 11:40 AM

Amir, Ben and other insiders. The only storage medium idea/concept that I've found so far that would contain the kind of capacity that we'd really want i.e. 500GB plus, and that would be "transparent to the decor" is NAS (networked storage). And ideally wireless connectivity to it from the CE device (as well as your, probably existing, computer equipment).
Agree this will be a desirable feature for computer savvy owners.

Are we maybe heading towards a "two-tier" user base? "Basic tier" being those who play their discs in their players and nothing more. And the second "tier" being those who have the skill/understanding and or put the effort in to use their shiny new HD CE equipment like a networked computer.
There will certainly be those two tiers. But there will also be a third with included storage/HDD. We already see this in DVD recorders. CE companies will surely build a version for HD DVD. If they don't, we will certainly get ahead of them with PCs and game consoles :).

pythagoras

04-11-07, 12:30 PM

It sounds to me like the current hd dvd spec and hardware has the capability to play downloaded/streamed movies via network or usb, is this the case?

Could we infact be able to rent hd movies via the network interface and either store it on hard disk or use the persistent storage built in as a buffer for streaming?

This would be a killer feature imho.

Regards

John.

9158

04-11-07, 12:35 PM

Amir, will the 360 Elite output 768p (1366x768 or 1360x768) on HDMI for movies and games?

Thanks

Amir, can you answer my question please?

markrubin

04-11-07, 01:13 PM

mod

some posts deleted

this thread is for specific technical questions to the experts: I think many recent posts are strechting the rules

amirm

04-11-07, 01:44 PM

Amir, will the 360 Elite output 768p (1366x768 or 1360x768) on HDMI for movies and games?

Thanks
1360x768 is currently supported over VGA and will be supported over HDMI/DVI for Elite. This however, requires that display advertise such with its EDID if HDMI is used.

We are not aware of displays that advertize in their EDID support for 1366x768.

RichB

04-11-07, 02:10 PM

1360x768 is currently supported over VGA and will be supported over HDMI/DVI for Elite. This however, requires that display advertise such with its EDID if HDMI is used.

We are not aware of displays that advertize in their EDID support for 1366x768.

Panasonic Commercial Plasma displays do.

- Rich

RobertR1

04-11-07, 02:20 PM

PARASITE

04-11-07, 02:26 PM

amirm, sorry if this is a dumb question. When the update hits that fixes the vga washed out colors, will the picture be better then component, since it will be running in full range?

amirm

04-11-07, 02:30 PM

Amir,

So now that passed has passed, what happened with Childern of Men and what's the right way to go about getting a working copy? I've done 2 swaps at best buy with no luck and it's getting a bit annoying.

Thanks,
Robert.
I would contact Universal directly. I put in the 800 number in the thread for that title. They will make it right and want to see the bad discs.

amirm

04-11-07, 02:32 PM

amirm, sorry if this is a dumb question. When the update hits that fixes the vga washed out colors, will the picture be better then component, since it will be running in full range?
It is hard to say. Which one looks better depends on the electronics in your display. I would just try it out and see. With the new test discs coming out, you could use the frequency sweeps for example and see which one resolves more detail.

amirm

04-11-07, 02:48 PM

Panasonic Commercial Plasma displays do.

- Rich
Thanks. I will ask the team to see what happens with those displays.

Talkstr8t

04-11-07, 03:12 PM

Divx support is never coming. This is most likely due to Microsofts delicate partnerships with studios now, and allowing the most pirated formats on the internet to be streamed on the 360 would essentially be taking a leak on those partnerships. (same reason you are not likely to see them on the PS3 either).Sony's support for Linux on the PS3 has already enabled DivX support there.

- Talk

Talkstr8t

04-11-07, 03:19 PM

In this thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10253767&&#post10253767) regarding the state of BD-J development at the moment, there's a link (http://www.blueboard.com/bluray/qa_dragonslair.htm) to an interview with the author of the BD-J Dragon's Lair game. In that interview, he refers several times to a 2nd revision of the BD-J spec. He clearly is indicating that there are portions the BD-J environment that aren't there yet as part of a version level, as opposed to indicating that the hardware isn't there yet.

Can you shed some light on to what this additional version of BD-J that's being referred to is?Everything he says in the Q&A is consistent with how most of the recent press has characterized the November "Profile 1.1" issue as "BD-J support isn't mandatory until November", rather than the correct "hardware support for secondary audio/video and local storage capabiliity aren't mandatory until November". In the Q&A he also notes that they haven't licensed the specification, so he doesn't appear to be in a position to have first-hand knowledge of the spec.

Nothing is different from my, as you put it, "BD-J is complete-but-waiting-for-hardware" stance.

- Talk

Talkstr8t

04-11-07, 03:27 PM

So what do I do with the Samsung? Or Pioneer? Or wait, your own Sony player? Hear the sound of silence? Or do you need to have a duplicate PCM track for the disc for the rest of your installed base?Amir, you know this is ridiculous. Why would you possible include both TrueHD and lossless PCM tracks on the same disc? Where disc space isn't an issue lossless PCM is an easy choice - it works on all players. Where disc space or bandwidth is an issue, TrueHD + DD is a fine choice. It requires less space than lossless PCM, provides the other benefits you've discussed here (i.e. more precise selection of bit resolution), and still allows the majority of Blu-ray Disc owners to hear lossless, while providing a 5.1 mix for those whose players don't support TrueHD. Just as you've been telling potential Xbox 360 HD DVD add-on owners that if lossless audio is important to them they ought purchase a standalone player, why is similar advice not relevant to Blu-ray Disc owners? If you want TrueHD support buy a player which supports it; many do today, and it's likely most will in the future.
With lossless mandatory, we see Warner discs in HD DVD having TrueHD and BD version having only low rate DD. You can always buy an HD DVD player to get lossless sound. It is a hell of a lot harder to find the missing bits in the BD DD version of the same track with a new player ;).And yet a far greater percentage of Blu-ray titles have lossless sound than do HD DVD. To what do you attribute this? If mandatory TrueHD support is such an advantage, why are the studios not making far more use of it?

- Talk

9158

04-11-07, 03:53 PM

to Blu-ray insiders:

I've noticed that the PS3 can scale 1080p trailers (such as "Casino Royale" from the PS Store) to 720p. Yet it can't scale 1080p BD movies to 720p. Why is that?

RichB

04-11-07, 04:10 PM

Thanks. I will ask the team to see what happens with those displays.

FYI, this may not be possible because the I believe only the newer ATI 1xxx series graphics processors correctly handle resolutions that are not a multiple of 8.

- Rich

jwakaruk

04-11-07, 04:24 PM

To all insiders,

AMD Inc. and Kulabyte™ had a press release today announcing a new professional software/hardware combination that they claim decreases encoding time up to 60% over current industry standards. VC-1, MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 were mentioned in the press release.

Which codec benefits the most from advances in processing power? Will developments by companies such as AMD Inc. influence future use of different codecs by studios or are the benefits mostly linear across the board?

Thanks

eq_shadimar

04-11-07, 04:27 PM

Yes, absolutely. Even the default playlist in the movie can change dynamically should you add extra content to it. But for sure, you can have user created playlists driving the experience in HDi.

Yes, there are at least two titles coming out from Europe which not only let you have three positions for the subtitles, but two different sizes: one for TVs and such and the other for larger screen projectors. You will be able to select all of these variations from the remote.

Excellent news! Thank you for the answer. Can you hint at the titles? :)

Laters,
Jeff

bfdtv

04-11-07, 04:48 PM

Amir,

Can you clarify? Does the IME on every HD-DVD title use VC-1, or is that a more recent development? I recall last year, you mentioned several times that you expected to reduce peak bandwidth on IME by 40-60% with VC-1.

roma_victor

04-11-07, 06:15 PM

To paidgeek:

First, thanks for your continuing contribution to this forum.
There has been some speculation here about several possible upcoming BD releases, and I would like to ask if you can verify whether the following are in the works/scheduled for release in the near future:

Lawrence of Arabia

Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon (one of my all-time favorite movies)

Bram Stoker's Dracula (ditto)

Ghostbusters 1 & 2

Thanks in advance for any information you can share!

paidgeek

04-11-07, 06:24 PM

roma_victor

04-11-07, 06:30 PM

All of these titles are in the works, but I can't comment any further on them until they are closer to their street dates.

Thanks and good news!
While I've got you here, any information you can share about Hero and/or any other Zhang Yimou films (To Live, Raise the Red Lantern, Ju Dou, etc...)
IMO he is the greatest director working today and IIRC all my Zhang Yimou dvds and vhs are from Sony Classics.

(btw, I appreciate HOFD and the upcoming Curse of Golden Flower BDs)

Richard Paul

04-11-07, 06:42 PM

Isn't it just as odd, that HD-DVD only requires output of two channels of decoded lossless? This sort of kills any benefit of having DD THD mandatory don't you think?It is not odd at all. Because if 2-channel was not made mandatory, I assure you that 100% HD DVD installed base would not be implementing 5.1 either (look at DTS-MA-HD). Once one has the hardware/MIPS to do 2-channel, going to 5.1 is not a big reach. So nothing was "killed" in this process.Amir, all of the HD DVD movies I know of that have a Dolby TrueHD audio track also include a DD/DD+ audio track so wouldn't that indicate that the studios believe that there will be HD DVD players in the future that are only capable of 2-channel Dolby TrueHD decoding? If the studios believed that all future HD DVD players would be able to decode 5.1 Dolby TrueHD why would they include both a Dolby TrueHD and DD/DD+ audio track?

Schlotkins

04-11-07, 06:56 PM

Paidgeek-

Any chance of getting Groundhog day out on Blu-ray? It would probably need a restore before it could go out, but hey, it's a top 250 movie on IMDB. :)

Thanks,
Chris

paidgeek

04-11-07, 07:01 PM

Paidgeek-

Any chance of getting Groundhog day out on Blu-ray? It would probably need a restore before it could go out, but hey, it's a top 250 movie on IMDB. :)

Thanks,
Chris

This title is being considered for release, but I don't have any further details about when.

benwaggoner

04-11-07, 07:29 PM

AMD Inc. and Kulabyte™ had a press release today announcing a new professional software/hardware combination that they claim decreases encoding time up to 60% over current industry standards. VC-1, MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 were mentioned in the press release.

Which codec benefits the most from advances in processing power? Will developments by companies such as AMD Inc. influence future use of different codecs by studios or are the benefits mostly linear across the board?

Cool.

There's nothing specific I'm aware of about their technique that would make a particular codec more or less efficient. That said, we're aggressively engaged in optimization along many axes simultaneously (algorithmic, hardware, SIMD, multithreading).

Anyone coming to NAB? I'll be on a panel at the Kulabyte booth Monday at 11am talking about this. Come by and say hi!

I'll be at the Microsoft booth and elsewhere talking about PEP, and I'm teaching several conference seesions about authoring for HD DVD/BD, and compression in general.

benwaggoner

04-11-07, 07:33 PM

Can you clarify? Does the IME on every HD-DVD title use VC-1, or is that a more recent development? I recall last year, you mentioned several times that you expected to reduce peak bandwidth on IME by 40-60% with VC-1.
This is a more recent development. Back in the day PEP was harder to use than a simple real-time MPEG-2 encoder, so some titles used VC-1 for the main feature and MPEG-2 for the extras.

Improvements in PEP have increased the relative value of using it over MPEG-2, and made it quite a bit easier to use it for that, so we're seeing more titles using VC-1 everywhere.

Schlotkins

04-11-07, 08:32 PM

This title is being considered for release, but I don't have any further details about when.

Thanks for the info... Hopefully it's fairly soon!

John Haghighi

04-11-07, 09:48 PM

WMA Lossless is supported in the 360 but not broadly. Its decodec locally only if it accompanies a video as its sound track. You can also stream it remotely from the PC. But in this case, our server on the PC decodes it into WAV before sending it to 360 (or any other DLNA receiver).

But yes, in both cases you can output losslessly over HDMI, etc. because this is only 2-channels and there is enough bandwidth on that on both output ports.

There is no need to re-encode into WMA Pro.

Yes, see above.

That seems very odd to me that it has to be accompanied by a Video track, why not update the software in the 360 to decode WMAL locally? (and while your at it add FLAC>WMAL)

The idea here would be to allow us to have an external HD full of WMAL music, attach it to the USB port instead of requiring a PC to stream re-encoded WAV across the LAN.

Also can we assume that if WMAL is decoded in the 360 it will be output as PCM over HDMI as the best option or if sent over toslink, re-encoded asWMA Pro at 1.5Mbps? (I am trying to build a case for the Elite)

John Haghighi

04-11-07, 09:56 PM

Without us and Toshiba decoding 5.1 TrueHD, there would have been far less lossless tracks on discs (again, look at BD discs from Warner). Or IME, etc.

Nice save Amir! (No forgiveness for lack of 5.1 output from you guys)

Seriously though, I thought the only reason Warner was leaving off TrueHD was because they have a format preference?

I don't see why Warner would not include a TrueHD track on BD, as the DD stream can be decoded from it correct?

They include a PCM track for Departed, but they choose to leave this off many other discs?

Can anyone BD or HD insiders or someone from Warner explain the reasoning here, we are all curious?

amirm

04-11-07, 10:20 PM

Seriously though, I thought the only reason Warner was leaving off TrueHD was because they have a format preference?
I don't think that is the case. They have been strong advocates of the least common denominator principal. In DVD Forum they were clear that optional features would simply not get used. So we listened and made things like internet and TrueHD mandatory. It would seem really odd for them to give up their principals all of a sudden and use optional features in BD.

Of course, they could change their mind but so far, they don't seem to have done that.

I don't see why Warner would not include a TrueHD track on BD, as the DD stream can be decoded from it correct?
The DD track and TrueHD are seperate encodes even in BD. It is not the same concept of core+extension which DTS has. As such, one doesn't "fall out of" the other, or come for free. They would have to make an effort to create the TrueHD track, knowing that despite the expense, some people can't play it.

They include a PCM track for Departed, but they choose to leave this off many other discs? Can anyone BD or HD insiders or someone from Warner explain the reasoning here, we are all curious?
I wish we had not driven their representative out of here as I am sure he could have answered this question. I can only leave you with the tidbits above :).

amirm

04-11-07, 10:25 PM

That seems very odd to me that it has to be accompanied by a Video track, why not update the software in the 360 to decode WMAL locally? (and while your at it add FLAC>WMAL).

The idea here would be to allow us to have an external HD full of WMAL music, attach it to the USB port instead of requiring a PC to stream re-encoded WAV across the LAN.
I agree it would be more efficient to do it that way. For now though, 2-channel stereo only takes 1.4 mbit/sec so it is a difficult argument to make on that front. Note that the PC is not encoding into anything. It is simply decoding WMA Pro and sending it uncompressed.

Also can we assume that if WMAL is decoded in the 360 it will be output as PCM over HDMI as the best option or if sent over toslink, re-encoded asWMA Pro at 1.5Mbps? (I am trying to build a case for the Elite)
It will be output as PCM over HDMI. And I am 90% sure it will be output the same way over toslink. So if I am right, there is no need for re-compression into WMA Pro.

Jackinbox

04-11-07, 10:50 PM

I don't think that is the case. They have been strong advocates of the least common denominator principal. In DVD Forum they were clear that optional features would simply not get used. So we listened and made things like internet and TrueHD mandatory. It would seem really odd for them to give up their principals all of a sudden and use optional features in BD.
Isn't TrueHD 5.1 optional? I thought only 2.0 was mandatory? Besides, PCM on BD is analagous to TrueHD on HD-DVD in terms of player decoding. All BD players will decode PCM just as all HD-DVD players decode TrueHD.

The DD track and TrueHD are seperate encodes even in BD. It is not the same concept of core+extension which DTS has. As such, one doesn't "fall out of" the other, or come for free. They would have to make an effort to create the TrueHD track, knowing that despite the expense, some people can't play it.
That's true but it still doesn't explain why the HD-DVD versions have both a TrueHD track and a Dolby Digital track but the BD versions don't. If they've already created the track it just doesn't make sense not to use it on both.

UxiSXRD

04-11-07, 11:04 PM

I don't think that is the case. They have been strong advocates of the least common denominator principal. In DVD Forum they were clear that optional features would simply not get used. So we listened and made things like internet and TrueHD mandatory. It would seem really odd for them to give up their principals all of a sudden and use optional features in BD.

Can you think of any difficulties Warner might have had converting making PCM tracks for the Blu-ray releases (some of which have 20+GB free on the BD50), using the source material that they made Dolby TrueHD tracks out of the HDDVD release of the same title?

Of course, I don't expect you to be accountable for Warner, but you're a smart guy who would know the theory of such matters far better than me... and unfortunately I can't seem to think of any factors other than HDDVD favoritism or lazyness in skimping on the BD releases so... And I don't believe they're lazy, given the quality they show in their HDDVD releases.

The DD track and TrueHD are seperate encodes even in BD. It is not the same concept of core+extension which DTS has. As such, one doesn't "fall out of" the other, or come for free. They would have to make an effort to create the TrueHD track, knowing that despite the expense, some people can't play it.

Isn't it comparitively much easier to do a PCM track if the bit bucket and capacity are hypothetically available on disc?

xact

04-11-07, 11:13 PM

But yes, we do upsample DVDs over HDMI. The resolution would be whatever you set your HDMI port to (or what it autoselects if you don't).
Amir,

Since the Elite provides a protected video path (offering DVD upscaling, etc), will it also provide access to the "My DVD's" library as a Media Center Extender?

Thanks for your ongoing support...

amirm

04-11-07, 11:14 PM

Not sure why this simple concept is getting so many arguments back :). We should move on as I am sure the mods will step in soon to delete more posts as we are not saying anything new here...

Isn't TrueHD 5.1 optional? I thought only 2.0 was mandatory?
At spec level this is true. But 100% of HD DVD players support 5.1 decode which is a different situation from BD where major brands/players don't support any decoding of TrueHD -- 2.0 or otherwise.

Besides, PCM on BD is analagous to TrueHD on HD-DVD in terms of player decoding. All BD players will decode PCM just as all HD-DVD players decode TrueHD.
HD DVD also supports PCM. There are titles in Japan which use it already. Of course, we don't use it here much because we have lossless compression so why waste space. But it is there. And no, there is no "decoding" going on with PCM. The samples are simply output as is from disc. Hence the reason both formats support it.

Not supporting TrueHD is simply for the convenience of BD equipment makers and nothing more. Let’s not try to justify it in some other way. Many titles would get pushed into much more expensive BD-50 discs with limited availability because of PCM (and MPEG-2, and fake PiP, etc.). One day people will have to pay for the premium of BD-50 and on that they, they will wish that they had not taken the easy route on audio. Only it would be too late.

That's true but it still doesn't explain why the HD-DVD versions have both a TrueHD track and a Dolby Digital track but the BD versions don't. If they've already created the track it just doesn't make sense not to use it on both.
Maybe they worry that if they advertise the TrueHD track on a BD box, and the user can’t find it in the player menus (or it is found but doesn’t play), they get product returns. “I paid for lossless audio but it is not there!” With HD DVD, the menu item is always there, even if the player only supports 2.0. And you always get some sound. See how Paid is saying even with their TrueHD title, they are also going to stuff a PCM track on the same title. This just sounds wrong to me. Very wrong. “Belts and suspenders” should have no place in this business.