Hey Amir,

I'm getting worried, because everything i see about the spring update is all about IM stuff. Are you 100% percent sure they will have the vga fixes in it? and if yes why is microsoft not mentioning it with the PR blitz we are seeing for the update?

Not supporting TrueHD is simply for the convenience of BD equipment makers and nothing more. Let’s not try to justify it in some other way. Many titles would get pushed into much more expensive BD-50 discs with limited availability because of PCM (and MPEG-2, and fake PiP, etc.). One day people will have to pay for the premium of BD-50 and on that they, they will wish that they had not taken the easy route on audio. Only it would be too late.


But by that time Dolby TrueHD decoding will be defacto in most BD players, so then software developers should have more incentive to provide it. Wouldn't that affect the outcome according to your argument?

Given the relative derth of lossless tracks on BD (regardless of codec/packing method) compared to what's available on BD, I fail to see how consumers are to feel cheated out of "lossless" on BD software? True, DTS-HD MA tracks on Fox titles aren't fully docoded in today's BD hardware, but DTS-HD MA tracks wouldn't be decoded in HD DVD hardware either.

Warner's choice not to provide lossless on BD releases where lossless is provided on HD DVD is their own internal studio decision and doesn't appear to reflect any other studio's attitude (certainly not Fox and Disney who have championed lossless audio on almost every BD release). Have you heard otherwise?

I agree with you that providing both PCM and Dolby TrueHD on BD as Sony plans to do seems redundant. I think that dual-lossless strategy is only temporary. Hasn't Paidgeek mentioned that this dual-lossless was part of their initial test strategy with Dolby TrueHD?

I also don't take issue with the notion that it was a good thing that HD DVD hardware required (2.0) Dolby TrueHD decoding and that it was a bad thing that BD hardware does not require it. It bothers me that the BD group caved to manufacturing pressure to relax these audiophile-specs, though in not too long a time I suspect they'll be "standard" by default, regardless of spec requirements (much like DTS in DVD players is today).

Amir, have you heard of any progress on the DTS-HD MA decoding front? Any expected delivery time for the chips/software from DTS? Any rough idea of when we might see an HD DVD player with DTS-HD MA decoding?

To insiders with knowledge about drive mechanics...

Is a slot loading hd-dvd/blu-ray combo drive in a laptop form factor a practical possibility? As far as I know only a full height drive has been announced (by LG). The case I'd like to use for an HTPC (a new version of the mcubed HFX mini (http://www.mcubed-store.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=195) )only takes laptop drives and I want to avoid having external drives.

Thanks,

Aitor

Amir, why do you think Warner generally includes a DD+ track on those HD DVD releases which also have a TrueHD track? This is either purely redundant, given that your assumption that all HD DVD players will support TrueHD 5.1 decoding, or Warner is assuming some players may only support TrueHD 2.0, in which case they are offering features which might not be strictly lowest-common-denominator.
Maybe they worry that if they advertise the TrueHD track on a BD box, and the user can’t find it in the player menus (or it is found but doesn’t play), they get product returns. “I paid for lossless audio but it is not there!” I simply cannot find a plausible reason for Warner not to have included TrueHD tracks on Blu-ray releases where it wouldn't force a BD25 release onto BD50. Your argument regarding users being upset that they paid for lossless audio they can't hear flies in the face of most of the history of DVD, where only consumers with AVR's with 5.1 support (and DD decoders, if the player doesn't decode it) can hear surround, even though it's prominently advertised on most discs. I imagine even today that a minority of DVD players are part of 5.1-capable installations.

Comments?

- Talk

To insiders with knowledge about drive mechanics...

Is a slot loading hd-dvd/blu-ray combo drive in a laptop form factor a practical possibility?A combo drive? I'd be very surprised given the additional optical complexity. As a Blu-ray only drive it's already been announced (http://www.emedialive.com/Articles/ReadArticle.aspx?ArticleID=12600) as an upgrade for Macs.

- Talk

Talk, can we thus assume that you think including PCM and Dolby TrueHD on the same disc is ridiculous?I forgot about the possibility of a >16-bit master, where you could include that on TrueHD but to include it with lossless PCM would be impractical due to the need to effectively code as 24-bit. Other than that, or the possibility of doing a test release to follow-up with consumer research to see which track consumers value, I can't see the benefit of including two forms of an identical lossless track, though if Paidgeek is pursuing it I'm sure there's a good rationale.

The conformance point for content creators is the decoders, not encoders. They want to know what audio will be playable on all players, irrespective of how that audio is later transported.

How is truehd 5.1 playable on 360s?

To Chip insiders or anyone that knows

Does Broadcom or Sigma Designs, or anyone else have a chipset that can decode DTS-HD MA out yet that is shipping or has shipped in CE products?


Is DTS-HD MA decoding possible in software, that is, if the chipset in a given CE devices does not support full MA decoding (NOT CORE), is there a software solution to this?

@Paidgeek

Is there any information on Leon: The professional being worked on or on a schedule or even thought about? It's one of my favorite movies. I believe it's another Gaumont title (like TFE?), so I'm a little worried you guys may be in a similar position with regards to master access as TFE...?

Also, from what I've seen of the releases it's most Columbia and SPHE... are there any Sony Pictures Classics movies coming? A lot of fantastic foreign movies and lesser known titles are released under the SP Classics name.

This thread is really appreciated!

Talk, where do you think doing a PCM track rates on the difficulty/time/effort/money scale compared to a TrueHD/DTS-HDMA track for a Blu-ray disc?

I'm particularly thinking of Warner titles that had TrueHD for HDDVD and no lossless at all for their Blu-ray release (Superman Returns as one example with HD-30/DVD-9 Combo HDDVD TrueHD 5.1 versus Blu-ray BD-50 with only lossy). There are reports of some 30+GB free on the Blu-ray...

Hey Amir,

I was wondering how exactly the DTS patch/DD night mode fix will work. If we want the audio to be output as DTS 1.5Mbps, we choose that in the settings. Now, will all HD DVD audio be output as DTS (IE: DD+ 5.1, TrueHD, etc)? If the answer is yes, will he hear a difference in sound quality if we pick TrueHD over DD+?? I hope it makes sense what I'm asking....

I would love to know the answer to this as well.

Hey Amir,

I was wondering how exactly the DTS patch/DD night mode fix will work. If we want the audio to be output as DTS 1.5Mbps, we choose that in the settings. Now, will all HD DVD audio be output as DTS (IE: DD+ 5.1, TrueHD, etc)? If the answer is yes, will he hear a difference in sound quality if we pick TrueHD over DD+?? I hope it makes sense what I'm asking....
You might hear a difference. That's because TrueHD track is the same as the master which was fed to it. So the player represents the original signal unchanged before re-encoding on the way out using DTS/WMA-Pro/DD.

With DD+/DTS on disc, the signal is not identical to the original mathematically speaking. So you start off at a different point than TrueHD. Now, how much quality is left on the table in this scenario depends highly on the data rate of the DD+/DTS, the content, your ears, the equipment, etc. For many people, they probably won’t hear much of a difference, especially if we are talking about DD+/DTS at 1.5 mbit/sec. Others might hear something.

Also keep in mind that the levels may not be identical in these two scenarios which will no doubt make some people think one or the other is better :). In addition, there may be some merit to using different codecs as input and output. That is, for DD+, use DTS/WMA Pro. Reason being that some codecs don’t like to re-encode their own streams (their “windows” might align, causing some distortion).

Anyway, my suggestion would be to use TrueHD when it is there as it will never be worse than DTS/DD+.

To both formats, I'm more concerned with 7.1 audio tracks then whether the track is PCM, TrueHD, DD+, DD etc... I rather hear the sound coming from more directions then worry about the slight differences between tracks.

Anyway my question about this is to both formats, what can we look forward to as far as titles with 7.1 tracks coming out in 2007?

Can you think of any difficulties Warner might have had converting making PCM tracks for the Blu-ray releases (some of which have 20+GB free on the BD50), using the source material that they made Dolby TrueHD tracks out of the HDDVD release of the same title?

Of course, I don't expect you to be accountable for Warner, but you're a smart guy who would know the theory of such matters far better than me... and unfortunately I can't seem to think of any factors other than HDDVD favoritism or lazyness in skimping on the BD releases so... And I don't believe they're lazy, given the quality they show in their HDDVD releases.
I really try to avoid guessing when answering questions in this forum. And that is what you are asking me to do :). So here are some ideas. But please don't assume that they are rooted in data from Warner. Only they can represent their actual views:

1. Using PCM would utilize more of the surface of the BD-50 discs. If there are yield issues, they will typically be proportional to power of 3 relative to space used. That is, if you double the space used, your yields go down by a factor of 8! In this case, the PCM track for a 2 hour movie, we are talking about 4+ gigabytes of space for 5.1, 16-bit, 48khz. This is a substantial increase in space used relative to 25 or so gigabyte taken by the title and given the exponential drop in yields, could have a material cost impact.

Note that some of the discs manufactured by Sony in BD-25 when the format launched had unused space. And the talk around town definitely was that this was done to improve yields (we know they didn’t do it to give you higher quality with those MPEG-2 titles :)).


2. Maybe they are upset at BDA for voting the audio codecs mandatory in DVD Forum, then walking next door and making it optional and want to poke their finger in their eye this way :). I am saying this half seriously but there could be as many business reasons as there are technical.


3. Testing yet another track does cost money in QC. Remember that Warner has a higher cost basis than other BDA studios because they have to master in two formats. So I would think they are not anxious to pile on more costs, especially because it is being forced onto them by the same camp, making what they wanted, optional.

Isn't it comparitively much easier to do a PCM track if the bit bucket and capacity are hypothetically available on disc?
Unfortunately, as I explained above, we are not living in the hypothetical world, but the real one :). Business and technical factors must have weighed in as we know, and you state nicely, Warner is interested in producing top quality product for consumers.

You might hear a difference. That's because TrueHD track is the same as the master which was fed to it. So the player represents the original signal unchanged before re-encoding on the way out using DTS/WMA-Pro/DD.

With DD+/DTS on disc, the signal is not identical to the original mathematically speaking. So you start off at a different point than TrueHD. Now, how much quality is left on the table in this scenario depends highly on the data rate of the DD+/DTS, the content, your ears, the equipment, etc. For many people, they probably won’t hear much of a difference, especially if we are talking about DD+/DTS at 1.5 mbit/sec. Others might hear something.

Also keep in mind that the levels may not be identical in these two scenarios which will no doubt make some people think one or the other is better :). In addition, there may be some merit to using different codecs as input and output. That is, for DD+, use DTS/WMA Pro. Reason being that some codecs don’t like to re-encode their own streams (their “windows” might align, causing some distortion).

Anyway, my suggestion would be to use TrueHD when it is there as it will never be worse than DTS/DD+.

Thanks Arirm!

Quick question. You probably answered this already, but not sure. Currently when I select TrueHD on a HD DVD I hear a slight difference. How does the xbox 360 output this? On the xbox I have marked as being able to decode DD+ and WMA Pro which my receiver can decode both. I was wondering if the xbox favors outputing it in one format (DD+ versus WMA Pro)?

You might hear a difference. That's because TrueHD track is the same as the master which was fed to it. So the player represents the original signal unchanged before re-encoding on the way out using DTS/WMA-Pro/DD.

With DD+/DTS on disc, the signal is not identical to the original mathematically speaking. So you start off at a different point than TrueHD. Now, how much quality is left on the table in this scenario depends highly on the data rate of the DD+/DTS, the content, your ears, the equipment, etc. For many people, they probably won’t hear much of a difference, especially if we are talking about DD+/DTS at 1.5 mbit/sec. Others might hear something.

Also keep in mind that the levels may not be identical in these two scenarios which will no doubt make some people think one or the other is better :). In addition, there may be some merit to using different codecs as input and output. That is, for DD+, use DTS/WMA Pro. Reason being that some codecs don’t like to re-encode their own streams (their “windows” might align, causing some distortion).

Anyway, my suggestion would be to use TrueHD when it is there as it will never be worse than DTS/DD+.

Thanks Amir for the clarification. That was something that was always puzzling me.

Now, if we can only get a solid date on when we can expect this patch would be great. I understand you guys work on a "qualitative" schedule, but even with this type of schedule there must be some kind of expected completion date. We have all be waiting as patiently as possible for this patch, and I can tell you that if this patch comes out AFTER the May 7th Spring Update, there are going to be some VERY upset users!

I remember reading threads of yours back in Nov/Dec 06 saying we are counting "weeks not months" yet we have not seen anything to date yet. It's now April!! You must understand the frustration of your users!!

What I'm trying to get at is if you can please confirm whether this patch will come before or after the May 7th update (since you cannot give a firm date). I think I speak for a lot of people when I say we are fed up of waiting. Amir, please get the authorization required to fill us in on when we can expect this patch.

I do not want it to go unsaid....you add a great value to this forum with you presence as you provide us with answers to various questions we would not be able to find anywhere else. Please see what you can do.

Thanks Amir for the clarification. That was something that was always puzzling me.

Now, if we can only get a solid date on when we can expect this patch would be great. I understand you guys work on a "qualitative" schedule, but even with this type of schedule there must be some kind of expected completion date. We have all be waiting as patiently as possible for this patch, and I can tell you that if this patch comes out AFTER the May 7th Spring Update, there are going to be some VERY upset users!

I remember reading threads of yours back in Nov/Dec 06 saying we are counting "weeks not months" yet we have not seen anything to date yet. It's now April!! You must understand the frustration of your users!!

What I'm trying to get at is if you can please confirm whether this patch will come before or after the May 7th update (since you cannot give a firm date). I think I speak for a lot of people when I say we are fed up of waiting. Amir, please get the authorization required to fill us in on when we can expect this patch.

I do not want it to go unsaid....you add a great value to this forum with you presence as you provide us with answers to various questions we would not be able to find anywhere else. Please see what you can do.

Amir,

For what it is worth, Dr. Know echoes the concerns of many of us 360 add-on owners. Am I at the point where I only buy and watch Blu-Ray movies right now because of the audio issues on the 360 add-on. I have literally not watched an HD DVD movie for almost one month because I am waiting for the fix. I have a number of titles I am interested in buying on HD DVD but I really want to experience the movie with the audio fix.

I think we all realize that you are in a difficult position here, but there is a very lengthy thread in the HD DVD player section with some very upset people.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=757895

Any information you can share may help calm the masses...

Regards.

Amir,

For what it is worth, Dr. Know echoes the concerns of many of us 360 add-on owners. Am I at the point where I only buy and watch Blu-Ray movies right now because of the audio issues on the 360 add-on. I have literally not watched an HD DVD movie for almost one month because I am waiting for the fix. I have a number of titles I am interested in buying on HD DVD but I really want to experience the movie with the audio fix.

I think we all realize that you are in a difficult position here, but there is a very lengthy thread in the HD DVD player section with some very upset people.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=757895

Any information you can share may help calm the masses...

Regards.

Yes, I too have not watch nor purchased an HD DVD in two months (The Departed was the last one) because of the AQ issue. I've been buying more Blu Ray just for this fact. There are releases I'm interested in purchasing but will not buy them because of this (we all understand this issue is only with the 360 add-on and no other HD DVD player). And I would rather get the HD DVD version of the multi format moveis (Happy Feet) but have not done so because of issue. If you do take a look at that thread ack_bk posted above, you will clearly see the frustration.

Thanks Arirm!

Quick question. You probably answered this already, but not sure. Currently when I select TrueHD on a HD DVD I hear a slight difference. How does the xbox 360 output this?
It is re-encoding it to DD at 640kbps. Note that some of the difference you hear is artificial because our current DD+/DD decoder in 360 reduces dynamic range. So you may be hearing that effect, as opposed to quality difference between DD+ and TrueHD which was the question asked.

On the xbox I have marked as being able to decode DD+ and WMA Pro which my receiver can decode both. I was wondering if the xbox favors outputing it in one format (DD+ versus WMA Pro)?
Today, it only outputs DD. With the updated software, you will be in command and able to choose DD at 640kbps, DTS at 1.5 Mbit/sec or WMA Pro at 1.5mbit/sec. Since your receiver understands all three, you can play with them and see what sounds best.

Hey Amir,

I'm getting worried, because everything i see about the spring update is all about IM stuff. Are you 100% percent sure they will have the vga fixes in it? and if yes why is microsoft not mentioning it with the PR blitz we are seeing for the update?
Yes, I am sure :). The Xbox PR is about gaming. So that is where they focus their attention. I am here to cover the video end :).

But 100% of HD DVD players support 5.1 decode..

Will all "cheap" Chinese players do too, once they hit the market?

Because we are not licensed to sell or send videos overseas, you will need to go through their customer service offices to obtain a replacement. If it was purchased through Amazon in the U.S., it is likely a formatting issue.

Amir,

This is the response I got from National Geographic.
I would appreciate it, if you know somebody in this loop, that you inform them that I am not suffering from a "formatting issue" but an apparent appalling QA level on National Geographic HD-DVD discs.
I tried explaining that a replacement disc would likely not fix the problem, as quoted by a few people on threads here, but I fear this makes no sense to the poor person who has to answer emails for them.
I won't be purchasing another NG HD-DVD again.

Amir, why do you think Warner generally includes a DD+ track on those HD DVD releases which also have a TrueHD track? This is either purely redundant, given that your assumption that all HD DVD players will support TrueHD 5.1 decoding, or Warner is assuming some players may only support TrueHD 2.0, in which case they are offering features which might not be strictly lowest-common-denominator.

Amir,

could you comment? That does seem redundant given the decoding capability of HD DVD hardware.

To any HD DVD insiders:

Any updates on the playback issues with Pathe titles and the lack of news about the delayed BCI titles.

Also, did you work with First Look International on encoding their first HD DVD release?

Talk, where do you think doing a PCM track rates on the difficulty/time/effort/money scale compared to a TrueHD/DTS-HDMA track for a Blu-ray disc?This is outside my realm of expertise, but my assumption is that you have to feed a PCM track into an encoder to get a DD/DD+/TrueHD/DTS/DTS-HD/DTS-HD MA track. Therefore, you've always got a PCM track in the process, and it would require relatively little effort to put it on the disc.
I'm particularly thinking of Warner titles that had TrueHD for HDDVD and no lossless at all for their Blu-ray release (Superman Returns as one example with HD-30/DVD-9 Combo HDDVD TrueHD 5.1 versus Blu-ray BD-50 with only lossy). There are reports of some 30+GB free on the Blu-ray...30GB free?!? Why didn't they just use a BD25?

Amir suggests that one possible reason for Warner not including a lossless track where they have room is due to the cost of decreased yields on BD-50. Let's do some math and see what the cost might be:

He claims additional space used has a power of three impact on yield. I'd like to see some reference to this as being true, as it seems it would be power of two, since you're using more surface area, not more volume. Nonetheless, let's use Amir's numbers. If you assume a disc without lossless is 25GB and one with lossless is 29GB, you're at 1.16x the original size. Cubing this gives you a factor of 1.56, which applied to an estimated BD-50 yield of 70% gives you 0.7 * (1 / 1.56) = 0.45, or a 45% yield. You've therefore dropped your yield (70 - 45), or 25%, which means you've increased your production cost 25%. Let's estimate it costs Warner $1.50 to replicate each BD50 disc (based on published pricing), and they have a production run of 30K for each title (probably high since the highest-selling title is just over 100K). $1.50 * 30,000 * 0.25 = $11,250. Therefore, using Amir's rationale and these numbers, it would cost Warner an extra $11,250 in disc reproduction costs for an average title to include lossless sound. Assuming Warner receives $15 wholesale per disc, they'd need to sell an extra 750 discs to recoup the cost of including a lossless track where they have the room to do so. They'd also likely receive better reviews due to providing better sound quality (meaning more disc sales) and the'd generate consumer goodwill by providing the "best possible sound", so there would be additional benefits to doing so.

If I were in charge, there's be lossless PCM on the Warner discs!

- Talk

Amir suggests that one possible reason for Warner not including a lossless track where they have room is due to the cost of decreased yields on BD-50.

Didn't seem to be a problem for Disney providing full 24-bit PCM 5.1 on Chicago... along with 640 kbps DD and a 2.0 24-bit PCM stereo spanish track with an AVC video encode that averaged close to 30 mbps... along with almost all the bonus material from the 2-disc SE DVD set. Perhaps Disney is privy to superior 50GB replication lines? Or perhaps yields aren't really what's behind WB's choice not to go lossless on BD.

Actual information on WB's choice to withhold lossless from BD seems suspicious to me. My bet is that it's a political move, and not a technically-constrained one.

Any insider with real information (ie, beyond mere conjecture about poor yields being to blame) care to share?

I meant to say 20-30GB free. Obviously any title less than 25GB would/should likely be using BD25 (unless they were going to go with a multiple disc model for extras ala MI3). From the Unofficial specs thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=760714), Superman Returns (as one example) is using 29,749,466,608 bytes total and has no lossless tracks (despite having TrueHD 5.1 on the HDDVD).

Does WB monitor this thread or AVS in general? What is the best way we as consumers can make clear to WB the imperitive that we want/demand lossless on BD as well as HD DVD?

Might I add... no dialog normalization on that Dolby TrueHD if you please... (and nothing less than 20 bit)

Blu-ray insiders -

There have been a couple of mentions of current BD titles that support bookmarking. Could you please tell me which titles on BD have bookmarking and whether or not the first gen players are capable of handling the bookmarks? Thanks.

There have been a couple of mentions of current BD titles that support bookmarking. Could you please tell me which titles on BD have bookmarking and whether or not the first gen players are capable of handling the bookmarks? Behind Enemy Lines, Speed, and League of Extraordinary Gentleman all support up to 99 bookmarks each on all Blu-ray Disc players. There may be other titles as well...

Amir, why do you think Warner generally includes a DD+ track on those HD DVD releases which also have a TrueHD track? This is either purely redundant, given that your assumption that all HD DVD players will support TrueHD 5.1 decoding, or Warner is assuming some players may only support TrueHD 2.0, in which case they are offering features which might not be strictly lowest-common-denominator.
Amir,
could you comment? That does seem redundant given the decoding capability of HD DVD hardware.

OK, I will comment once more but I really think we have spent enough time on this topic already.

I believe what we are seeing here is the marketing value for enthusiasts when it comes to alphabet soup of technical terms on the back of the box. Many people don't know what all they mean but the more, the merrier it seems :). Just look at the front of any AVR these days, especially those coming from Japan. You see a ton of logos there for the same reason.

Once the market develops though beyond enthusiasts, and we maintain 100% compatibility with the installed base, then they will feel at ease to let go of the redundant tracks, at least on their non-special titles (the special titles are still targeted at collectors and such, who may value the alphabet soup).

Yes, we still have to make sure devices continue to be at superset of the required spec by decoding 5.1. We are striving to do that by choosing to use reference platforms which enable full 5.1 decoding. If you go by Paid’s statement which says TrueHD is free if you license regular DD, then there should be no excuse for not supporting it.

Didn't seem to be a problem for Disney providing full 24-bit PCM 5.1 on Chicago... along with 640 kbps DD and a 2.0 24-bit PCM stereo spanish track with an AVC video encode that averaged close to 30 mbps... along with almost all the bonus material from the 2-disc SE DVD set. Perhaps Disney is privy to superior 50GB replication lines? Or perhaps yields aren't really what's behind WB's choice not to go lossless on BD.
If I told you any car you want to buy is free, would you buy a Hyundai or a Porsche? Not saying the discs are free to Disney but without being privy to what arrangement each studio has, you cannot position them similarly. Nor can you assume they are similarly motivated to promote a format, as opposed to making business decisions strictly on ROI basis.

Any insider with real information (ie, beyond mere conjecture about poor yields being to blame) care to share?
Word to the wise: don’t answer questions anymore when asked to guess as to intentions of other companies :(. This is the kind of feedback you are bound to get from folks who don’t like the answer…

I believe what we are seeing here is the marketing value for enthusiasts when it comes to alphabet soup of technical terms on the back of the box. Many people don't know what all they mean but the more, the merrier it seems . Just look at the front of any AVR these days, especially those coming from Japan. You see a ton of logos there for the same reason.

Once the market develops though beyond enthusiasts, and we maintain 100% compatibility with the installed base, then they will feel at ease to let go of the redundant tracks, at least on their non-special titles (the special titles are still targeted at collectors and such, who may value the alphabet soup).

Yes, we still have to make sure devices continue to be at superset of the required spec by decoding 5.1. We are striving to do that by choosing to use reference platforms which enable full 5.1 decoding. If you go by Paid’s statement which says TrueHD is free if you license regular DD, then there should be no excuse for not supporting it.

Makes sense.

It will be interesting with time to see if trends in reduction of "redundant" tracks occur based on an increased base of fully-featured decoding etc. Even on DVD we still see redunant tracks like 5.1 and 2.0 Dolby tracks... when the 2.0 track sounds no better (often worse bcs of reduced bitrate) than the 5.1->2.0 folddown.

BTW, didn't mean to be too critical about the "yields" thing for no lossless on WB Blu-rays. Sorry...didn't mean to disparage. It's just after months of the same question only being met with suppositions (from multiple sources), it's frustrating that no one has come forth to offer any real information. The yield issue also seems a highly unprobable justification for titles like Superman that had so much available space (especially given that other studios are producing discs that make near total use of 50GB). So, without being dismissive of your own efforts to theorize and offer your thoughts, it would be great if anyone who was privy to some WB-information would share. It's been months since this question was first raised and we still have yet to hear a "real" reason from a WB source (first or 2nd hand).

@Paidgeek

Is there any information on Leon: The professional being worked on or on a schedule or even thought about? It's one of my favorite movies. I believe it's another Gaumont title (like TFE?), so I'm a little worried you guys may be in a similar position with regards to master access as TFE...?

Also, from what I've seen of the releases it's most Columbia and SPHE... are there any Sony Pictures Classics movies coming? A lot of fantastic foreign movies and lesser known titles are released under the SP Classics name.

This thread is really appreciated!

Sorry, I don't have any information on this title

To both formats, I'm more concerned with 7.1 audio tracks then whether the track is PCM, TrueHD, DD+, DD etc... I rather hear the sound coming from more directions then worry about the slight differences between tracks.

Anyway my question about this is to both formats, what can we look forward to as far as titles with 7.1 tracks coming out in 2007?

I am not aware of any films from Sony Pictures coming out this year with 7.1 for home audio. SM3 will have and SDDS 7.1 on the print, but this is for 5 speakers across the front and this is not a typical consumer 7.1 configuration. For a 7.1 mix to have value, it should be created by the film makers and they are focussed on the mixes required for theatrical venues.

Didn't seem to be a problem for Disney providing full 24-bit PCM 5.1 on Chicago... along with 640 kbps DD and a 2.0 24-bit PCM stereo spanish track with an AVC video encode that averaged close to 30 mbps... along with almost all the bonus material from the 2-disc SE DVD set. Perhaps Disney is privy to superior 50GB replication lines? Or perhaps yields aren't really what's behind WB's choice not to go lossless on BD.

Actual information on WB's choice to withhold lossless from BD seems suspicious to me. My bet is that it's a political move, and not a technically-constrained one.

Any insider with real information (ie, beyond mere conjecture about poor yields being to blame) care to share?

Warner has said they want absolute parity between their HD-DVD and BD releases. Providing a better audio experience on BD would obviously violate that principle. There is no issue with using up more of the disc for audio and hurting yield. Witness the fact that SPE is filling up virtually every disc released in Europe.

Warner has said they want absolute parity between their HD-DVD and BD releases.

Paidgeek,

the context of my post was that WB is *not* providing parity between the two formats when they provide lossless Dolby TrueHD on the HD DVD version but *not* on any Blu-ray Disc version. Read back a few posts to see what we're talking about (for some reason, WB has yet to release lossless Dolby TrueHD on any Blu-ray despite the *same titles* providing it on HD DVD). In other words, right now they are giving an audio advantage to HD DVD.

I know many dual-format collectors who opted for the HD DVD copy of Superman and Happy Feet based on the provision of lossless audio alone (since it was omitted on the Blu-ray versions). Naturally, one of the questions is whether or not WB is doing this intentionally to weight sales in favor of HD DVD on these titles where Lossless audio is offered on HD DVD but not BD.

To both formats, I'm more concerned with 7.1 audio tracks then whether the track is PCM, TrueHD, DD+, DD etc... I rather hear the sound coming from more directions then worry about the slight differences between tracks.

Anyway my question about this is to both formats, what can we look forward to as far as titles with 7.1 tracks coming out in 2007?
Amir,

Since WMA supports 7.1 over SPDIF, when (if?) titles with 7.1 audio become available, will the 360 output all 7.1 channels if WMA is the selected output type?

Amir,

Since WMA supports 7.1 over SPDIF, when (if?) titles with 7.1 audio become available, will the 360 output all 7.1 channels if WMA is the selected output type?
We would have to modify the encoder to support 7.1. More channels requires more processing power so we would have to optimize the encoder more.

Any insiders care to comment on Samsung's new dual-format player?

http://www.koreanewswire.co.kr/en_read.php?id=241929&no=0&nmode=&ca=&ca1=English-&ca2=&sf=&st=&of=&nwof=&conttype=&tm=1&type=&hotissue=&sdate=&eflag=&emonth=&spno=&exid=&rg1=&rg2=&rg3=&tt=

First Dreamworks as a major studio announces dual-format support, and now Samsung as a major CE company. Do partison insiders welcome or resist this trend?

Mainly to the Microsoft guys:

For years I have been creating my own multichannel music on my Windows PC -yes a PC, not a Mac, such a rogue I am - with 5.1 or greater mixes in mind. The content creation apps are there for Windows and are quite good.

Yet the closed media formats, licenses and royalties for "surround" encoders, and high cost of authoring(burning) tools has made it very difficult for the consumer/prosumer to be able to do a relatively straightforward thing: create surround music, encode in high fidelity (better than AC-3), burn it to a disc, and pop that disc in a AVR disc player.

Is there an opportunity here for HD DVD, like HD DVD formatted WMA encode on DVD-R for example? Or even better yet, a real live I-can-buy-it-now set of software/hardware/av equipment that will let me accomplish this? Or will my high fidelity multichannel music forever be hostage to my Windows PC?

Amir,
First just let me say how grateful I am to have access to the wealth of knowledge that you and the other 'insiders' provide on this site. I only recently started visiting these forums and I often find myself reading through these long threads in a trance, soaking up every tidbit of info I can (I'm a bit of a nerd for this stuff if you can't tell, but it looks like I'm in good company here)

But I digress. I have a question about 'director's cuts'. Let's just say for this example that we're talking about LOTR (the first one). I love this movie, and I also love the extended edtion, but I'd like to have them both on the same disc. Obviously, encoding both versions as separate entities would take up way too much space for HD DVD and probably Blu-ray as well. But would it be possible (maybe with IME or BD-J) to encode the standard version in its entirety and then have the extra scenes from the extended version encoded by themselves separately, so that if you want to watch the extended version the player would access the main feature and then whenever an extended scene is coming up, it would load up that part and seamlessly cut to that extra scene at the right moment, then go back to the main feature at the end of the scene? (sorry for the run-on sentence)

I don't know if I'm explaining that well enough. But this is something that I always thought would be cool with DVDs but I think it was beyond the capabilities of that spec. Or maybe it was just that film studios would rather keep those versions separate so I have to buy it again?

Amir,
First just let me say how grateful I am to have access to the wealth of knowledge that you and the other 'insiders' provide on this site. I only recently started visiting these forums and I often find myself reading through these long threads in a trance, soaking up every tidbit of info I can (I'm a bit of a nerd for this stuff if you can't tell, but it looks like I'm in good company here)

But I digress. I have a question about 'director's cuts'. Let's just say for this example that we're talking about LOTR (the first one). I love this movie, and I also love the extended edtion, but I'd like to have them both on the same disc. Obviously, encoding both versions as separate entities would take up way too much space for HD DVD and probably Blu-ray as well. But would it be possible (maybe with IME or BD-J) to encode the standard version in its entirety and then have the extra scenes from the extended version encoded by themselves separately, so that if you want to watch the extended version the player would access the main feature and then whenever an extended scene is coming up, it would load up that part and seamlessly cut to that extra scene at the right moment, then go back to the main feature at the end of the scene? (sorry for the run-on sentence)

I don't know if I'm explaining that well enough. But this is something that I always thought would be cool with DVDs but I think it was beyond the capabilities of that spec. Or maybe it was just that film studios would rather keep those versions separate so I have to buy it again?

If I remember correctly the Disney movie "The Lion King" did just that on SD-DVD so it probably can be done with HD-DVD as well.

I too would be interested in knowing an answer to this since this would seem the best way to have both versions on one disc.

Makes sense.

It will be interesting with time to see if trends in reduction of "redundant" tracks occur based on an increased base of fully-featured decoding etc. Even on DVD we still see redunant tracks like 5.1 and 2.0 Dolby tracks... when the 2.0 track sounds no better (often worse bcs of reduced bitrate) than the 5.1->2.0 folddown.

BTW, didn't mean to be too critical about the "yields" thing for no lossless on WB Blu-rays. Sorry...didn't mean to disparage. It's just after months of the same question only being met with suppositions (from multiple sources), it's frustrating that no one has come forth to offer any real information. The yield issue also seems a highly unprobable justification for titles like Superman that had so much available space (especially given that other studios are producing discs that make near total use of 50GB). So, without being dismissive of your own efforts to theorize and offer your thoughts, it would be great if anyone who was privy to some WB-information would share. It's been months since this question was first raised and we still have yet to hear a "real" reason from a WB source (first or 2nd hand).


I also would like to have any insider info about this issue about the justification of not using the extra space for Superman Returns or any WB title that falls in this category as well..

Amir,
First just let me say how grateful I am to have access to the wealth of knowledge that you and the other 'insiders' provide on this site. I only recently started visiting these forums and I often find myself reading through these long threads in a trance, soaking up every tidbit of info I can (I'm a bit of a nerd for this stuff if you can't tell, but it looks like I'm in good company here)
I am sure I speak for all the insiders for thanking you for the kind words :). It is the currency that keeps us working here.

But I digress. I have a question about 'director's cuts'. Let's just say for this example that we're talking about LOTR (the first one). I love this movie, and I also love the extended edtion, but I'd like to have them both on the same disc. Obviously, encoding both versions as separate entities would take up way too much space for HD DVD and probably Blu-ray as well. But would it be possible (maybe with IME or BD-J) to encode the standard version in its entirety and then have the extra scenes from the extended version encoded by themselves separately, so that if you want to watch the extended version the player would access the main feature and then whenever an extended scene is coming up, it would load up that part and seamlessly cut to that extra scene at the right moment, then go back to the main feature at the end of the scene? (sorry for the run-on sentence)

I don't know if I'm explaining that well enough. But this is something that I always thought would be cool with DVDs but I think it was beyond the capabilities of that spec. Or maybe it was just that film studios would rather keep those versions separate so I have to buy it again?
You are describing it just fine. And yes, both formats allow such a feature. I believe in DVD this was a kludge using angles and such. In HD DVD, you can just make a playlist.

Per a post much earlier, we are enhancing our tools to automate the encoding of such content. You can do it today but you have to do some manual work at the seams.

Mainly to the Microsoft guys:

For years I have been creating my own multichannel music on my Windows PC -yes a PC, not a Mac, such a rogue I am - with 5.1 or greater mixes in mind. The content creation apps are there for Windows and are quite good.

Yet the closed media formats, licenses and royalties for "surround" encoders, and high cost of authoring(burning) tools has made it very difficult for the consumer/prosumer to be able to do a relatively straightforward thing: create surround music, encode in high fidelity (better than AC-3), burn it to a disc, and pop that disc in a AVR disc player.

Is there an opportunity here for HD DVD, like HD DVD formatted WMA encode on DVD-R for example? Or even better yet, a real live I-can-buy-it-now set of software/hardware/av equipment that will let me accomplish this? Or will my high fidelity multichannel music forever be hostage to my Windows PC?
You can certainly do this with HD DVD. You just need an HD DVD authoring tool and standard DVD burner. Then encode away in PCM. Without video, there is no need to even compress the audio. You will be able to get almost 2 hours of audio in 5.1, 24-bit/48khz in standard dual layer DVD. For longer content, then TrueHD can be used or some kind of HD DVD burner.

Ben can advise on which tool is suitable for consumer use (Ulead?) or you can check out threads on creating HD DVDs.

Paidgeek,

the context of my post was that WB is *not* providing parity between the two formats when they provide lossless Dolby TrueHD on the HD DVD version but *not* on any Blu-ray Disc version. Read back a few posts to see what we're talking about (for some reason, WB has yet to release lossless Dolby TrueHD on any Blu-ray despite the *same titles* providing it on HD DVD). In other words, right now they are giving an audio advantage to HD DVD.

I know many dual-format collectors who opted for the HD DVD copy of Superman and Happy Feet based on the provision of lossless audio alone (since it was omitted on the Blu-ray versions). Naturally, one of the questions is whether or not WB is doing this intentionally to weight sales in favor of HD DVD on these titles where Lossless audio is offered on HD DVD but not BD.

According to WB, the titles that were released on both formats that provided DD THD on HD-DVD but not BD were the result of a problem with authoring DD THD discovered at a point in time to close to a critical ship date to hold back. The problem with the authoring tool was quickly corrected, so this situation should not come up again.

Amir, since the XBox 360 HD DVD add-on is being used by many with their HTPC setup, will Microsoft provide a way for HTPC enthusiasts to upgrade the firmware of the add-on as they become available for the XBox 360?

Amir, since the XBox 360 HD DVD add-on is being used by many with their HTPC setup, will Microsoft provide a way for HTPC enthusiasts to upgrade the firmware of the add-on as they become available for the XBox 360?
Unfortunately not. We don't support the drive on PC as we have no software to talk to it there. Maybe some other mechanism develops over time to do that.

amir, do you know what software can be used to encode TrueHD tracks? Thanks!

amir, do you know what software can be used to encode TrueHD tracks? Thanks!
I only know of the Dolby tools. But I assume Sonic and others also have a version but I don't know first hand.

Now that Samsung has officially announced their player combo player http://www.samsung.com/PressCenter/PressRelease/PressRelease.asp?seq=20070413_0000338109 is there anything insiders can tell us about this? :)

Amir,

Which is the better audio format for movies? WMA pro or Dolby Digital? I want to see if there is a difference when I watch movies on my 360. If you have a receiver that does not support WMA would you still get sound out if I select the WMA pro option on my 360? And will it be 5.1 surround?

According to WB, the titles that were released on both formats that provided DD THD on HD-DVD but not BD were the result of a problem with authoring DD THD discovered at a point in time to close to a critical ship date to hold back. The problem with the authoring tool was quickly corrected, so this situation should not come up again.

But it's been several months since Superman Returns was released on BD. Heck, Happy Feet wasn't even in theaters I believe when the BD of SR was released. They also did it with The Phantom of The Opera. Meantime, Legends of Jazz was released with DTHD.

In any case Paidgeek, you can tell your bosses that some of us want DTHD, especially if it's 20 or 24 bit resolution. The Spider-Man films for example.

Amirm/Andy,
Can you give us some idea when the Elite360 will become available in asia? Secondly, has the Elite360 vanished the hoover drives that now grace the current 360 units? You don't have to be a brain surgon to realise the noise coming from these units is a big put off for people living in apartments.
Thanks

Is it true that the uncompressed audio PCM tracks (which Sony advertises so proudly) have actually been truncated from 24 to 16bits?
This does not make any sense as the studios record at 24 bits and the Blu-ray disks have all that huge capacity.

Please tell me it ain't so. I want to buy only High Definition discs!

Warner has said they want absolute parity between their HD-DVD and BD releases. Providing a better audio experience on BD would obviously violate that principle. There is no issue with using up more of the disc for audio and hurting yield. Witness the fact that SPE is filling up virtually every disc released in Europe.
Then what incentive is there to buy Blu-ray discs?

Question for A Blu Ray(or HD DVD) insider:

Why can't studios pump out titles at a faster rate than what is already being produced? There are tons of titles that would be great for high def but it seems there is a slow trickle at times. Does the encoding take a long time? Is it man power? Or is it the low installed base?

Also, if tiles for BD are already using BD-Java...what is the hold up of Warner titles? Even if some players can't support PIP, they will in the future...Is Warner waiting for every player to support PIP?

amirm:

Will we be receiving a 360 HD DVD firmware update to improve the HD DVD compatibility, or will the HD DVD release include this update?

Many combo disks are not playing, as well as some of the other documentaries that were apparently authored in basic mode.

I see Toshiba has released a firmware update.

@amirm,

From this thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10289477#post10289477) it seems some consumers do think a black hd-dvd addon could be a helpful offering to pair with the 360 elite.

It looks you did at least create a limited run of black addon drives from the picture in that thread. I know you've said the expense of offering another SKU and estimating the number of units to produce for each color was a key factor in deciding not to offer one.

At the same time with all the effort used to offer the 360 Elite in black doesn't it seem a bit hackish to leave this major peripheral in white only?

What's the chance of getting the message to someone at MS to reconsider at least a limited black addon offering or perhaps an "online orders only offering"?

Amirm,

Thanks SOOOO much for your attentiveness here. You are an invaluable resource.

A number of pages back someone asked you about the recent bypassing of AACS on the 360 HD DVD drive. I know that one of the big selling points for the studios (notice I say studios, because this benefits consumers not at all) was that if the AACS was compromised on a piece of software or hardware, they can revoke that software or hardware's keys, forcing updates.

This happened recently with WINDVD. Their keys had been compromised, so everyone was forced to update their software, or their software player would no longer work with future HD DVD's.

Now that the 360 HD DVD addon drive has been compromised, what does that mean for us? Are the keys intrinsic to the drive, so our expensive peripherals are now junk? Or is it in the firmware, so we just need a firmware update?

Please let us know, as there are a lot of us with potential expensive paperweights who are concerned about this. If they decided to simply revoke the keys for the drive, and all drives were then obsolete, that would seem to be the death knell of next generation HD disks, as people would be hesitant to buy a player knowing it could so easily be made invalid.

Thanks!

(Edited for Spelling)

paidgeek,

Paprika is being released on BD next month in Japan (23rd to be exact), do you have any details regarding this release? Video, audio, subs (if any), etc? Any plans for a US release?

Thanks in advance.

Now that Samsung has officially announced their player combo player http://www.samsung.com/PressCenter/PressRelease/PressRelease.asp?seq=20070413_0000338109 is there anything insiders can tell us about this? :)
Well, what would you like to know? :) For now, I think there is a key sentence in their release that is worth noting:

"As a member of the DVD Forum and contributor to the DVD Industry, we recognize that both HD-DVD and BD formats have merits.”

You now see more companies from BD side who think HD DVD is an important format which is going to have long life. And that selling expensive BD-only models essentially means one has a very small addressable market. With PS3 under-pricing stand-alone BD products, they have no choice but to look for other value-add features and dual format is a key one for them. Indeed, I think over time, BD-only playback devices (other than PS3) may completely fall out of favor.

This product is also a stronger attempt at building a dual format player than LG. I suspect it will be marketed much more aggressively than LG.

So we now have three CE companies manufacturing HD DVD playback equipment: Toshiba, Samsung and LG (in addition to ones we announced at CES). Our list is growing. And seeing how companies like Pioneer, Panasonic and Philips ship very low volumes, I think the equation is balancing out nicely.

And yes, this product has been in development for a long time. It was tough not being able to comment on it before.

Before BD folks come back kicking and screaming about my statements above :), keep in mind who has been predicting and supporting such products coming to market ;).

Thanks Amir. To make it easier, please go ahead and comment on any others combo players in production. You know, to keep the stress off you! :p

Amirm,

Thanks SOOOO much for your attentiveness here. You are an invaluable resource.

A number of pages back someone asked you about the recent bypassing of AACS on the 360 HD DVD drive. I know that one of the big selling points for the studios (notice I say studios, because this benefits consumers not at all) was that if the AACS was compromised on a piece of software or hardware, they can revoke that software or hardware's keys, forcing updates.

This happened recently with WINDVD. Their keys had been compromised, so everyone was forced to update their software, or their software player would no longer work with future HD DVD's.

Now that the 360 HD DVD addon drive has been compromised, what does that mean for us? Are the keys intrinsic to the drive, so our expensive peripherals are now junk? Or is it in the firmware, so we just need a firmware update?

Please let us know, as there are a lot of us with potential expensive paperweights who are concerned about this. If they decided to simply revoke the keys for the drive, and all drives were then obsolete, that would seem to be the death knell of next generation HD disks, as people would be hesitant to buy a player knowing it could so easily be made invalid.

Thanks!

(Edited for Spelling)
I think I need to make three things clear:

1. The equiv of WinDVD software is what runs in 360 to playback HD DVD. That software is NOT on the drive. Nor have there been any reports of our software in 360 being breached. So comparing the two situations is not appropriate in this case.

2. The first step in any report like this is investigating and duplicating what has been reported. Until then, there is no worry whatsoever. Your product is safe and you can continue to use it with confidence. When/if there is an issue that needs to be resolved, it will be up to the manufacturer to take action during certain period. AACS gives proper opportunity for the impacted product to make the system right, as you have seen with WinDVD action. The intention of all involved is to continue to have a working ecosystem, not shutting parts of it down. As doing so, harms the very entities that benefit from it (i.e. content owners).

3. If this is indeed a drive issue, then it will be up to manufacturer of the drive to take action, not necessarily other companies. For example, in case of WinDVD, you didn't see HP being on the hook, rather Corel. That is not to say we may not play a role in that. But that the primary company to respond may be different than it seems.

Anyway, as we learn more I will report back but wanted to be sure people understood the above principals. And that people should continue to use and purchase 360 HD DVD drive with confidence. We are here to make sure that assurance has value. We are not new to content protection systems :).

Thanks Amir. To make it easier, please go ahead and comment on any others combo players in production. You know, to keep the stress off you! :p
:D

Amir,

Which is the better audio format for movies? WMA pro or Dolby Digital? I want to see if there is a difference when I watch movies on my 360. If you have a receiver that does not support WMA would you still get sound out if I select the WMA pro option on my 360? And will it be 5.1 surround?
I hate to start another war of which codec is better :). But suffice it to say, we would not invent another audio codec, if we thought the ones in the market are better. In our internal double blind tests, WMA Pro at 760kbps matched the quality of DTS at 1.5 mbit/sec for example.

And yes, WMA Pro is 5.1. The version in Windows actually goes up to 7.1. But in 360 (and content you download) it is limited to 5.1.

So yes, if you are in the market to upgrade your AVR, then looking for WMA Pro would be a good thing. As you see, there is a lot more support for it now that it is also available for HD DVD playback.

Anyway, as we learn more I will report back but wanted to be sure people understood the above principals. And that people should continue to use and purchase 360 HD DVD drive with confidence. We are here to make sure that assurance has value. We are not new to content protection systems .

Thanks for your quick reply. From what I understand, the breach was not actually in the software at all, but instead was related to the hardware on the drive itself. It is unclear (and probably intentionally on their part) as to how exactly they overcame the problem, but apparently they are bypassing AACS altogether to get the volume id for the disk.

It makes sense as you say that this is a drive related issue, and not necessarily a Microsoft problem. Since they are also bypassing AACS altogether, maybe there will be no way to resolve the problem and the content providers will just have to live with it. It will be interesting to see how this progresses.

I love my HD DVD drive on my 360. I appreciate your commenting on this, and I know you and Toshiba will do all you can to ensure continued functionality!

Amir:

Thanks for your continuing contributions to the forum.
Previously you stated the following with respect to Samsung's plans:

I can' t comment on anything specific regarding Samsung. I can say as I have in the past that there will be more companies beyond LG building dual format players. When and who they are I can't say.

Given that you used the word "companies," plural, can you say whether you know of other CEs in addition to LG and now Samsung currently building/planning dual format players?

I fully understand you can't say who or when, but a simple yes or no would do! :)

I think I need to make three things clear:

1. The equiv of WinDVD software is what runs in 360 to playback HD DVD. That software is NOT on the drive. Nor have there been any reports of our software in 360 being breached. So comparing the two situations is not appropriate in this case.

2. The first step in any report like this is investigating and duplicating what has been reported. Until then, there is no worry whatsoever. Your product is safe and you can continue to use it with confidence. When/if there is an issue that needs to be resolved, it will be up to the manufacturer to take action during certain period. AACS gives proper opportunity for the impacted product to make the system right, as you have seen with WinDVD action. The intention of all involved is to continue to have a working ecosystem, not shutting parts of it down. As doing so, harms the very entities that benefit from it (i.e. content owners).

3. If this is indeed a drive issue, then it will be up to manufacturer of the drive to take action, not necessarily other companies. For example, in case of WinDVD, you didn't see HP being on the hook, rather Corel. That is not to say we may not play a role in that. But that the primary company to respond may be different than it seems.

Anyway, as we learn more I will report back but wanted to be sure people understood the above principals. And that people should continue to use and purchase 360 HD DVD drive with confidence. We are here to make sure that assurance has value. We are not new to content protection systems :).

If I understand you correctly, what you are saying is that if there is a problem with a part inside a Microsoft product that has an issue, unless the part is made by Microsoft it doesn't warrant the company to take action but to wait on the manufacturer of the part to admit to a problem and then come up with a repair?
If there is a problem with the drive, shouldn't Microsoft be the ones responsible for the repair even though the drives were manufactured by a different company? If the Ford motor company sells you a vehicle with defective tires from Goodyear that blow up on certain occasions, Ford is still responsible for the problem.

Question for A Blu Ray(or HD DVD) insider:

Why can't studios pump out titles at a faster rate than what is already being produced? There are tons of titles that would be great for high def but it seems there is a slow trickle at times. Does the encoding take a long time? Is it man power? Or is it the low installed base?
Well, there are production issues in play wrt to going faster but that is not the key issue as that can be solved with more money. The key issue is that the market for HD DVD+BD combined, is only 1% of DVD. As such, one has to think whether mastering costs alone can be recovered, let alone making profits on top of it. And where to get marketing dollars for such low volume products?

So in reality, we are way ahead of where we should be. Titles like King Kong and Batman Begins should have never come out in such early stage. Look at how Spiderman, Pirates and such haven't yet been released despite the strong desire of the companies on that side to "win the war." Some business principals trump other needs. Still, I think BD folks are also going to be far more aggressive than they would be otherwise. And titles like Casino Royal shows that they also break the rules where they can.

We need to thank the format war for this btw. Without it, neither side would have been so aggressive. See the slow roll out of titles with DVD. There is no doubt in my mind that some studios would not have released a single title without it at this stage.

Also, if tiles for BD are already using BD-Java...what is the hold up of Warner titles? Even if some players can't support PIP, they will in the future...Is Warner waiting for every player to support PIP?

People are selling you a car with an engine but without a transmission and wondering why you complain that you can’t go anywhere that way :). Warner titles use Picture in Picture. This feature was identified in DVD Forum requirement docs as being mandatory for studios some 3 years ago. Yet BDA decided to leave it out because their CE companies thought they could not get it working in time before product launch. So it doesn't matter if someone claims BD-J is there in some subset scenarios. First, there is no way to know if all of BD-J is functional because there is no way to exercise the parts in question. And second, without Picture in Picture hardware, they can't duplicate the functionality in HD DVD version of the same discs.

While there is more visibility into BD-J issues in BD format (after 2 years of me saying the same here :)), there are other problems still under wraps with performance variability being a key one. The cost to develop and test such features as such, remains quite high. And aggravation factor even higher. Given the small market for the product, you have to expect slower roll out of such features. That is just fact of life.

If I understand you correctly, what you are saying is that if there is a problem with a part inside a Microsoft product that has an issue, unless the part is made by Microsoft it doesn't warrant the company to take action but to wait on the manufacturer of the part to admit to a problem and then come up with a repair?
I think you are going a bit far in that argument per note below but this part is fairly close :). We have no ability to get into the drive and mess with it. So to the extent there is an issue with the drive, it is up to that company to investigate it.


If there is a problem with the drive, shouldn't Microsoft be the ones responsible for the repair even though the drives were manufactured by a different company? If the Ford motor company sells you a vehicle with defective tires from Goodyear that blow up on certain occasions, Ford is still responsible for the problem.
Absolutely. You can certainly look to us to take care of our customers. And we will do exactly that. All I was saying above is that there is a process where we identify the component needing repair and we need to wait for the response from the people who built that. Ultimately, the buck does stop with us. And we have every intention of taking care of our customers.

Also keep in mind that I am providing general principals here. I am not necessarily saying other people have to take action. That is why we have to take time to investigate such reports.

Amir:

Thanks for your continuing contributions to the forum.
Previously you stated the following with respect to Samsung's plans:

I can' t comment on anything specific regarding Samsung. I can say as I have in the past that there will be more companies beyond LG building dual format players. When and who they are I can't say.

Given that you used the word "companies," plural, can you say whether you know of other CEs in addition to LG and now Samsung currently building/planning dual format players?

I fully understand you can't say who or when, but a simple yes or no would do! :)
I really can't comment further. I think two major BD companies going dual-format ought to be enough for now :).

amirm:

Will we be receiving a 360 HD DVD firmware update to improve the HD DVD compatibility, or will the HD DVD release include this update?
Yes. Indeed 99% of the work in the spring update is regarding title compatibility improvements. And this is what is taking time wrt to getting the release out.

Many combo disks are not playing, as well as some of the other documentaries that were apparently authored in basic mode.

I see Toshiba has released a firmware update.
This is still be investigated to best of my knowledge. Should there be a new firmware for the drive, we can automatically update it in Xbox 360. But right now, I am not aware of any fixes for us to incorporate.

The best recourse is to work with the studio in question and exchange your disc through them.

@amirm,

From this thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10289477#post10289477) it seems some consumers do think a black hd-dvd addon could be a helpful offering to pair with the 360 elite.

It looks you did at least create a limited run of black addon drives from the picture in that thread. I know you've said the expense of offering another SKU and estimating the number of units to produce for each color was a key factor in deciding not to offer one.

At the same time with all the effort used to offer the 360 Elite in black doesn't it seem a bit hackish to leave this major peripheral in white only?

What's the chance of getting the message to someone at MS to reconsider at least a limited black addon offering or perhaps an "online orders only offering"?
I have already done that :). They have heard your feedback loud and clear!

Yes. Indeed 99% of the work in the spring update is regarding title compatibility improvements. And this is what is taking time wrt to getting the release out.


So, does this mean the HD-DVD upgrades are coming with the Spring dash update?

Is it true that the uncompressed audio PCM tracks (which Sony advertises so proudly) have actually been truncated from 24 to 16bits?
This does not make any sense as the studios record at 24 bits and the Blu-ray disks have all that huge capacity.

Please tell me it ain't so. I want to buy only High Definition discs!

It is correct that some titles have audio masters that have been reduced from 24bit to 16, but many of our catalog titles only were 16bit in the first place. Using 24bit, especially multiplied by additional languages is a burden, even with the bandwidth of BD.

Then what incentive is there to buy Blu-ray discs?

If you have both format players, then it may make little difference to you where a WB title is concerned. For other studios that choose to take full advantage of what Blu-ray can offer over HD-DVD, the decision is easy.

Has there been any news on the source of the problems with some Universal HD-DVDs, like Children of Men and The Good Sheppard? I know you said Microsoft was looking into it and it was a high priority issue, I'm just wondering if they've reached any conclusions yet, or have useful results to show.

paidgeek,

Paprika is being released on BD next month in Japan (23rd to be exact), do you have any details regarding this release? Video, audio, subs (if any), etc? Any plans for a US release?

Thanks in advance.

I do not have the details on this release.

I have already done that :). They have heard your feedback loud and clear!

Thanks so much Amir for helping to get these concerns heard.

Hopefully we get to see that black/black combo in a few AVS racks.
At the very least an extra "Elite model" related press release couldn't hurt. :)

Amir,
Do you know anything about Hitachi and Kenwood supporting HD DVD?

From this French blog post (http://www.cinemotion.biz/informacion.php?iinfo=120) via this thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=833899).
Thanks.

@paidgeek:

Will there be any more marketing actions in Europe where you can throw a competitor's next generation gaming console against a wall to get a free PS3? I think I would be ready for this now. Is there a speed record on thrown add-ons? I think I would break it.

Warner titles use Picture in Picture. This feature was identified in DVD Forum requirement docs as being mandatory for studios some 3 years ago. Yet BDA decided to leave it out because their CE companies thought they could not get it working in time before product launch.From what Ben said (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9378765&&#post9378765) isn't it because the PiP requirements for Blu-ray are a lot higher than the PiP requirements that are mandatory for HD DVD?

Amir,

If you get a few mins from basking in Matt-05's compliments :) (you missed eM)would you please address some Xbox live marketplace questions, mainly in the business sense.

How are the movie sales on Marketplace and how are the studios reacting to it? Are they in line with MS and studio expectations? Clearly, I'm not asking you to disclose confidential information but more of a high level overview of how movie sales of marketplace is doing and how well the public is responding to digital downloads.

BTW, I'm personally a big fan of the movies off market place. It's convenient and the quality is damn good to my eyes. Just lower that price of HD movies a bit :)

dear amir,

I and I believe many others appreciate that MS is trying to solve as much problems with the HD DVD update as possible. however, it starts to get really annoying. I have now about 75 HD DVDs purchased within the last six months. 1 or 2 have playback issues, whereas ALL of them have problems with DD+. to be quite blunt - I don't much care for those 1 or 2 titles which won't play smootly. I would rather like to be able to enjoy ALL my movies with the best sound quality. considering that the 360 HD DVD add-on is most probably the best selling HD DVD player so far, it doesn't shine a too good light on MS that the DD+ has not been solved so far.

best regards,

stefan

The best recourse is to work with the studio in question and exchange your disc through them.

:eek: How do you get away with saying things like that?!
There is NO published procedure for contacting "studios" and, in my limited experience, they are not interested in resolving the problem directly with consumers, referring them back to the store where they were purchased from instead.

Why should consumers pay for the mistakes that studios and manufacturers make? Why should we be chasing them for a resolution?

:eek: How do you get away with saying things like that?!
There is NO published procedure for contacting "studios" and, in my limited experience, they are not interested in resolving the problem directly with consumers, referring them back to the store where they were purchased from instead.
Not in this case. I post the 800 number for Unviversal in the COM thread. And I can assure you that they are responsive and very intrested in hearing from you. Here is the number again: 1-888-304-0680. Reason for their interest btw is that they can't replicate the problem easily and would you to send your bad discs to them so that they can figure out what is wrong with those specific ones.

Why should consumers pay for the mistakes that studios and manufacturers make? Why should we be chasing them for a resolution?
I agree things should be right the first time but they are not always. My new car still in Warranty has had issues and I had to take time off to go and drop it off. They fix it for free but it is still a hassle. The industry is new and as it expands as HD DVD is doing, you get new people/equipment/processes involved which run into snags. It is our combined responsibility to avoid issues. But when they do, we have a duty to be responsive. Hopefull you see that in my answering your questions, forwarding them to studios, and getting action in the form of 800 number above. If there is something else we should be doing, please let me know :).

Amir,

If you get a few mins from basking in Matt-05's compliments :) (you missed eM)would you please address some Xbox live marketplace questions, mainly in the business sense.

How are the movie sales on Marketplace and how are the studios reacting to it? Are they in line with MS and studio expectations? Clearly, I'm not asking you to disclose confidential information but more of a high level overview of how movie sales of marketplace is doing and how well the public is responding to digital downloads.

BTW, I'm personally a big fan of the movies off market place. It's convenient and the quality is damn good to my eyes. Just lower that price of HD movies a bit :)
I think everyone is pleasantly surprised in how well the marketplace is doing. They were a lot of people who thought the service would not fly but it did. Like yours, the only feedback I have seen has been positive. Of course, it not obsoleting DVDs for anything like that. But for a new concept and offering like that, it is doing very well.

I think everyone is pleasantly surprised in how well the marketplace is doing. They were a lot of people who thought the service would not fly but it did. Like yours, the only feedback I have seen has been positive. Of course, it not obsoleting DVDs for anything like that. But for a new concept and offering like that, it is doing very well.


Any chance to pass on to the marketplace team that us in Canada are still waiting for our HD market place content?

From what Ben said isn't it because the PiP requirements for Blu-ray are a lot higher than the PiP requirements that are mandatory for HD DVD?
You know you are in trouble where your source of BD interactivity data continues to come from us :p.

Anyway, the requirements could be infinite but as long it is missing in action in real players/products, studios can't target it ;). And no spec can insert a secondary video decoder in the products people have bought without it. So this leaves the studios with a tough situation of creating discs which leave some segment of the market behind, and open themselves up to having returned discs from those customers. Or worse yet , having liability cases to deal with.

Even more puzzling is why PS3 is behind in implementing it. Since it has the lion share of BD players, you would think if it had full support, some studios would target it. So either the PS3 lacks the functionality, or having partial support in the installed base is not good enough for the studios.

Either way, this is one hell of a mess for BD format. The screaming behind the scenes is even louder than what you read in the press. Had BD come clean 2+ years ago when this decision was made, folks would be less happy than they are now. As I said before, "Tell it all, tell it now." :) Folks thought they were pretty smart keeping this data from you. But once it gets out after the fact, the damage is even bigger…

Anyway, the requirements could be infinite but as long it is missing in action in real players/products, studios can't target it ;).You mean like the Enhanced Video secondary decoder?

paidgeek,

Paprika is being released on BD next month in Japan (23rd to be exact), do you have any details regarding this release? Video, audio, subs (if any), etc? Any plans for a US release?

Thanks in advance.

I do not have the details on this release.

Since paidgeek was unable to answer this one I guess I will. The Japanese release of Paprika has been solicited to retailers as being a barebones release completely devoid of extras, subtitles or other language tracks. It's just the movie itself, while the DVD releases get the deluxe treatment in comparison with extras discs, commentary tracks storyboard books and the like.

I would very much hope that if this sees ever a US release once the theatrical run is over the HD release gets a much better treatment than it did in Japan. It really is quite a shame and a missed opportunity IMO.

You mean like the Enhanced Video secondary decoder?
No, I meant the super-cooled, double barrel, photon charged torpedoes! :D

Please Richard, I wish you would take these comments elsewhere. They don't belong in this thread as we don't argue here. Nor are they a credible response to deficiencies of BD format. Fact is that studios are holding back BD content because they don’t have proper interactivity/Picture-in-Picture support. In contrast, I am not aware of any studios worrying about "enhanced video secondary decoder." Whatever you think that is :).

And keep in mind that even after BD gets Picture in Picture, they will only catch up to where we are now. They have no plans apparently to make networking mandatory, ever! This means they will be behind in all the new scenarios we will deliver on these on 100% of our installed base.

Unfortunately not. We don't support the drive on PC as we have no software to talk to it there. Maybe some other mechanism develops over time to do that.
Is it possible that this could change in the future? Or that firmware updates could be managed via Windows Update as the 'XBox 360 HD DVD Memory Unit' drivers were? Or is my only course of action to connect the add-on to a friend's XBox 360 and update the drive via that route?

Dear amirm,

one quick question about the dts update for the 360 hd dvd player, I have noticed that the volume on hd dvds is much lower that that of games and the dashboard on the 360, is this fixed in the new update.

And keep in mind that even after BD gets Picture in Picture, they will only catch up to where we are now.Are you saying that HD DVD PiP and the coming Bluray PiP are exactly the same in all technical aspects? Also, given the current sales numbers, wouldn't it be reasonable to conclude that consumers don't care much about PiP?

Not in this case. I post the 800 number for Unviversal in the COM thread... Hopefull you see that in my answering your questions, forwarding them to studios, and getting action in the form of 800 number above. If there is something else we should be doing, please let me know :).

Well there are a few more studios than Universal releasing HD-DVDs on the market and it is the smaller studios which appear to have more problems with their discs than the major ones. Do we have access to contact numbers for all HD-DVD publishers?

Thanks for the Universal phone number.
I haven't had the chance to play COM yet but there is a sense of dread to attempt it.
I am surprised this format is still experiencing issues like this one year after being introduced on the market. I'm not buying the "bleeding edge" argument any more.

Let's be honest here, the problems we are experiencing at the moment are solely QA issues. If these discs were checked correctly during production then we wouldn't even be here and it would save a lot of businesses money.

Is there something else we should be doing?
Yes. Two things:
1.) Increase QA standards in the production process.
2.) Studios working through retailers to proactively replace 'known' faulty stock.

Well there are a few more studios than Universal releasing HD-DVDs on the market and it is the smaller studios which appear to have more problems with their discs than the major ones. Do we have access to contact numbers for all HD-DVD publishers?

Thanks for the Universal phone number.
I haven't had the chance to play COM yet but there is a sense of dread to attempt it.
I am surprised this format is still experiencing issues like this one year after being introduced on the market. I'm not buying the "bleeding edge" argument any more.

Let's be honest here, the problems we are experiencing at the moment are solely QA issues. If these discs were checked correctly during production then we wouldn't even be here and it would save a lot of businesses money.

Is there something else we should be doing?
Yes. Two things:
1.) Increase QA standards in the production process.
2.) Studios working through retailers to proactively replace 'known' faulty stock.

I was wondering the same thing with Lionsgate and their unplayable BD disc "The Descent"

Well, there are production issues in play wrt to going faster but that is not the key issue as that can be solved with more money. The key issue is that the market for HD DVD+BD combined, is only 1% of DVD. As such, one has to think whether mastering costs alone can be recovered, let alone making profits on top of it. And where to get marketing dollars for such low volume products?

So in reality, we are way ahead of where we should be. Titles like King Kong and Batman Begins should have never come out in such early stage. Look at how Spiderman, Pirates and such haven't yet been released despite the strong desire of the companies on that side to "win the war." Some business principals trump other needs. Still, I think BD folks are also going to be far more aggressive than they would be otherwise. And titles like Casino Royal shows that they also break the rules where they can.

Those are all good points. I know it varies from title to title, but do you have any idea how many units have to be sold to reach break-even on say a title like Children Of Men or Night At The Museum? I guess I'm trying to figure out if the studios are bleeding red on these two formats or if it's just a case of them making a small amount of money, but nothing near DVD. I remember once being told by someone at Pioneer's LD pressing facility in Carson that it took 1200 units to break even on an initial pressing and 300 units for a repress.

My second question:

Do you see this heading towards another SACD/DVD-A situation where most players down the road will be dual-format or do you really seeing one format totally prevailling?

We need to thank the format war for this btw. Without it, neither side would have been so aggressive. See the slow roll out of titles with DVD. There is no doubt in my mind that some studios would not have released a single title without it at this stage.

I agree with that. The competition has been good for quality and for the number of titles. However, do you really think that the format war isn't still driving consumers away?

Well, what would you like to know? :) For now, I think there is a key sentence in their release that is worth noting:

"As a member of the DVD Forum and contributor to the DVD Industry, we recognize that both HD-DVD and BD formats have merits.”

You now see more companies from BD side who think HD DVD is an important format which is going to have long life. And that selling expensive BD-only models essentially means one has a very small addressable market. With PS3 under-pricing stand-alone BD products, they have no choice but to look for other value-add features and dual format is a key one for them. Indeed, I think over time, BD-only playback devices (other than PS3) may completely fall out of favor.


As will HD DVD only playback devices surely. When is Toshiba and Microsoft going to recognize the more broadly addressable market and go dual format?

Those are all good points. I know it varies from title to title, but do you have any idea how many units have to be sold to reach break-even on say a title like Children Of Men or Night At The Museum?
I don't know the exact costs here. Production costs can range from $50K to $400K+. We can make a rough guess of $200K for the type of title above (COM has fair amount of interactivity). Let's further assume $15 net of retailer margin and COGS (cost of goods sold). This means you would need to sell about 13,300 discs to break even. This is devoid of marketing costs of course.

My second question:

Do you see this heading towards another SACD/DVD-A situation where most players down the road will be dual-format or do you really seeing one format totally prevailling?
Neither :). This is what I see happening:
1. Companies like Toshiba will be building lower cost HD DVD players in volume (they have a cost and royalty advantage over dual format players). As you can imagine, Toshiba will not build a dual format player. And of course, we will remain HD DVD-only with Xbox 360.

2. Sony will continue to build PS3s with BD only playback. Like Toshiba but in reverse, they will not touch HD DVD.

3. There will be companies like Samsung/LG aggressively promoting dual format players.

4. In the noise level, there will be BD-only players and high-end companies building single format players (mostly HD DVD in the short term).

Right now, I think #1 and #2 will dominate the market in volume. Both comps have strategic reasons to do that which others do not. #3 will capture a smaller but somewhat significant volume.

A wild card is the PC. Right now it is in #4. But that might change.

However, do you really think that the format war isn't still driving consumers away?
Not really. What is driving them away is paying 10X to 20X more than a DVD player for the pleasure of having 6X the pixels (half of which they don't see on their 768p/720p displays). Once prices come down, and significantly so, the format war will almost not matter.

I have changed wireless phone carriers, with their incompatible systems either because the phones were essentially free, or my company paid for them (i.e. free to me :)). As such, I didn't care at all that one was GSM, and the other CDMA. When you ask people to pay a lot, that is when the look under the table and figure out what the format battle is all about. Give them a bargain and they won't bother to think and just buy.

As will HD DVD only playback devices surely. When is Toshiba and Microsoft going to recognize the more broadly addressable market and go dual format?
Not in the cards. Nor is the situation the same. BD companies have a serious problem called PS3. They simply cannot market products that do the same thing as PS3 but cost the same or more. They take advantage of the fact that Sony won't do HD DVD, and build a dual format player and have instant differentiation.

Toshiba on the other hand, already sells HD DVD players at half the PS3 price, and in the same vein, cheaper than Xbox 360+HD DVD drive. So they have no motivation to change stance. If they added dual format, they would instantly lose their price advantage. I think they much rather play in much lower price/higher volume end of the market, than duke it out with Samsung/LG in the middle of the market.

On our side, we sell an HD DVD drive for just $199 with a movie included. That is a huge bargain for our customers. If we changed this to dual format, our cost would go up substantially, and reduce the volume that we could sell. Since our competitor is a single format player, we can be the same just to get even with them :).

Of course, we have nothing against others building dual format players and are even ready to help them do that. We don't see an issue with that, just like the fact that we are happy to see Sony support our WMA audio codec in both PSP and PS3.

I don't know the exact costs here. Production costs can range from $50K to $400K+. We can make a rough guess of $200K for the type of title above (COM has fair amount of interactivity). Let's further assume $15 net of retailer margin and COGS (cost of goods sold). This means you would need to sell about 13,300 discs to break even. This is devoid of marketing costs of course.


Neither :). This is what I see happening:
1. Companies like Toshiba will be building lower cost HD DVD players in volume (they have a cost and royalty advantage over dual format players). As you can imagine, Toshiba will not build a dual format player. And of course, we will remain HD DVD-only with Xbox 360.

2. Sony will continue to build PS3s with BD only playback. Like Toshiba but in reverse, they will not touch HD DVD.

3. There will be companies like Samsung/LG aggressively promoting dual format players.

4. In the noise level, there will be BD-only players and high-end companies building single format players (mostly HD DVD in the short term).

Right now, I think #1 and #2 will dominate the market in volume. Both comps have strategic reasons to do that which others do not. #3 will capture a smaller but somewhat significant volume.

A wild card is the PC. Right now it is in #4. But that might change.


Why do you believe that a BD-only player vendor cannot compete with Toshiba on price?

As well, if dual format vendors can price within a reasonable level above an HD-DVD only Toshiba player, Toshiba will surely start to lose significant market share. Why would some buy a HD DVD only player and give up a sizeable studio segment vs buying a combo and having access to everything?

Amir:

Do you see HD DVDs strength being fortitude? Staying power? Bleeding the competition as far as marketing dollars and resultant product?

So why has it taken so long to provide what should have been a simple fix to turning off DD+ night mode decoding? Almost 5 months of a crippled product is hardly taking care of customers.
Yes, we could have done two releases. One to fix the audio and the other taking care of title incompatibility, lip sync, etc. But that would have meant that the second release would have happened much later due to "release tax."

On a personal note, I have heard your message loud and clear Ian on this front. I don't know what is gained from twisting my answer to a completely unrelated matter in the process of repeating it. If you are this unhappy with your purchase and you have to keep hammering on the same point, please PM me and I will buy the drive back from you. There are a ton of people who don't consider the product "crippled" and would be happy to receive it. Hopefully you find this offer responsive :(.

Anybody know when Toshiba is releasing HD-DVD players in NZ?
I haven't seen any available in the shops.

Any update on 1440x900 VGA resolution being added? If it is being added and doesnt make the spring release. Will we maybe see it in the fall update?

wow. and samsung has been one of the biggest Blu-ray supporters. this (support for BOTH formats) is good news for all of humanity, like that geneva convention thingy we used to have

My only concern with this proposition is that if both formats remain, we will be wasting 20GB of space for every BD50 that is used because everything will be encoded to HD-DVD 30GB specs. I'm perfectly OK with having two formats if two distinct encodes are done for each that utilize the extra space and bandwidth available on the disc for the best quality possible. I believe that is what we all as consumers want from all the movies we buy. This is unless we get HD-DVD 51GB discs to become the norm which is where my question to Amir is heading.

Amir, what do you think about my concern above about wasted space due to encoding only done to fit the smaller sized disc with lower specs? Is HD51 coming soon enough that this concern won't be an issue in my mind any longer?

One thing that somewhat interests me about TL51 is DL34.

That's "only" a 13% increase in size, but that seems big enough to be important. The other thing is that it seems from the HD DVD disc structure there are a significant amount of support files although I'm not entirely sure what everything is.

This may be an odd question but... Does a 13% increase in disc size mean exactly a 13% increase in movie length (if you use the exact same encoding settings), or does it mean something more or less?

It's my understanding that PC players for both BD and HD DVD require HDCP/HDMI video cards, even whent ICT flags are not set on the discs. Why is this? Is it required by the AACS license?

- Tom

One thing that somewhat interests me about TL51 is DL34.

That's "only" a 13% increase in size, but that seems big enough to be important. The other thing is that it seems from the HD DVD disc structure there are a significant amount of support files although I'm not entirely sure what everything is.

This may be an odd question but... Does a 13% increase in disc size mean exactly a 13% increase in movie length (if you use the exact same encoding settings), or does it mean something more or less?

Piggybacking on this question, is that if there were 34GB discs, would this mean that movies such as King Kong which were long films have been able to have Dolby TrueHD soundtracks rather than DD+?

If so, that would be really positive news even though I'd like to see 51GB or larger discs available.

Yes, we could have done two releases. One to fix the audio and the other taking care of title incompatibility, lip sync, etc. But that would have meant that the second release would have happened much later due to "release tax."

On a personal note, I have heard your message loud and clear Ian on this front. I don't know what is gained from twisting my answer to a completely unrelated matter in the process of repeating it. If you are this unhappy with your purchase and you have to keep hammering on the same point, please PM me and I will buy the drive back from you. There are a ton of people who don't consider the product "crippled" and would be happy to receive it. Hopefully you find this offer responsive :(.

Amir,

If you are serious about buying the drive back, that is a very generous offer. This actually raises a question that many owners in the other thread may be interested in. Will Microsoft refund our money on the add-on if there is no fix in place after May 7th (Spring Update)? I think the majority of unhappy owners would rather have a fix, but this issue seems to keep dragging on. I would much prefer to have Microsoft take care of the consumer than me trying to sell my add-on on Ebay.

Thanks,
-Tim

I know everyone keeps bringing the LOTR films in any discussion of long films on HD DVD cause they're long and have lots of action, but I think a much tougher test would be an older film (ie lots of grain, probably not the cleanest master) such as say Lawrence of Arabia (yeah I know Sony owns it) or Gone with the Wind (damn, do they have that one too?). Do you think a 'transparent' representation is possible at 12-15mbps using VC-1?
Certainly a lot of grain does make things more challenging, although having some grain is helpful in other ways, like reducing any banding due to 8-bit conversion.

Generally speaking, studios haven't beeing doing a whole lot of super-grainy movies lately - consumers and reviewers have certainly indicated a preference to err on the side of less grain. Too bad for us, I suppose, since lots of grain increases VC-1's differential advantage :). Still, 12-15 Mbps isn't at all a problem for us for typical masters with appropriate grain in them.

We're working on some great stuff for the next release of the codec that will help our efficiency with super-grainy content as well.

I am not trying to be inflammatory, but I was wondering what MS thinks about the patent decision that was recently made by the MPEG-LA awarding just two out of the 125 patents used in VC-1 to Microsoft?

I will understand if the answer is no comment.

Say, if anyone is at NAB and would like to meet up in person, I made up a blog post listing where I'm going to be:

My mission after the NAB/MIX/Streaming Media trade show season is over is to start blogging more about longer topics that aren't a good fit for AVS.

http://on10.net/blogs/benwagg/

One thing that somewhat interests me about TL51 is DL34.

That's "only" a 13% increase in size, but that seems big enough to be important. The other thing is that it seems from the HD DVD disc structure there are a significant amount of support files although I'm not entirely sure what everything is.

This may be an odd question but... Does a 13% increase in disc size mean exactly a 13% increase in movie length (if you use the exact same encoding settings), or does it mean something more or less?


How is going from 34 to 51 a 13% increase?
You're getting three layers instead of 2; that's 50% more space.

How is going from 34 to 51 a 13% increase?30 to 34 is a 13% increase.

51 gigs / 3 layers = 17 gigs per layer
17 gigs per layer * 2 layers = 34 gigs

(34 gigs on 2 layers with this new method) / (30 gigs on 2 layers as things stand now) = 1.1333 = 13.33% increase in capacity

...at least if this pans out.

It's my understanding that PC players for both BD and HD DVD require HDCP/HDMI video cards, even whent ICT flags are not set on the discs. Why is this? Is it required by the AACS license?

- Tom
Digital output must have some for of copy protection. Is this what you are asking?

Amir,

If you are serious about buying the drive back, that is a very generous offer. This actually raises a question that many owners in the other thread may be interested in. Will Microsoft refund our money on the add-on if there is no fix in place after May 7th (Spring Update)? I think the majority of unhappy owners would rather have a fix, but this issue seems to keep dragging on. I would much prefer to have Microsoft take care of the consumer than me trying to sell my add-on on Ebay.

Thanks,
-Tim
No, that was a personal offer. I would have paid for it out of my own pocket. We do not make such performance guarantees. Nor does any other company that I am aware of in this space.

I am not trying to be inflammatory, but I was wondering what MS thinks about the patent decision that was recently made by the MPEG-LA awarding just two out of the 125 patents used in VC-1 to Microsoft?

I will understand if the answer is no comment.
Actually, it is a good question. I think it is important to note how the process works here. The patent pool administered by MPEG-LA only includes issued patents. And it is up to each company to provide their patents to be evaluated against the standard as otherwise, they won’t be included in the list, even if they read on the spec. So this is not the case of us showing them 100 patents, and them "awarding" two of them.

Microsoft currently has many patents for VC-1 technology under application status, as it takes five years or more for patents to be granted. Therefore, we expect Microsoft’s patent position with respect to VC-1 to increase significantly over the next few years. More important than the sheer number of patents, however, is the level of innovation reflected in those patents. Many of the patents in the current list refer to older codec algorithms, whereas Microsoft’s patents and pending patent applications reflect the core innovations in the codec.

The same is true of other pools btw. Some 150 companies contributed to AVC for example but I believe only 25 are represented in MPEG-LA pool today. As the new entrants have their patents granted and they choose to participate in AVC pool, the list will grow and percentage of patents from each company will change.

Actually, it is a good question. I think it is important to note how the process works here. The patent pool administered by MPEG-LA only includes issued patents. And it is up to each company to provide their patents to be evaluated against the standard as otherwise, they won’t be included in the list, even if they read on the spec. So this is not the case of us showing them 100 patents, and them "awarding" two of them.

Microsoft currently has many patents for VC-1 technology under application status, as it takes five years or more for patents to be granted. Therefore, we expect Microsoft’s patent position with respect to VC-1 to increase significantly over the next few years. More important than the sheer number of patents, however, is the level of innovation reflected in those patents. Many of the patents in the current list refer to older codec algorithms, whereas Microsoft’s patents and pending patent applications reflect the core innovations in the codec.

The same is true of other pools btw. Some 150 companies contributed to AVC for example but I believe only 25 are represented in MPEG-LA pool today. As the new entrants have their patents granted and they choose to participate in AVC pool, the list will grow and percentage of patents from each company will change.

Thank you for your reply, I just don't want to see Microsoft giving up as VC-1 has the potential to be great.

So there is still a lot of IP left to be considered and MS should have a bigger holding in the next lot, will this be done by the MPEG-LA or by a different arbitrator?

Insiders from both camps -

Is it possible for the studios to code the PiP features (IME, U-Control, etc.) in such a way that the user could hit a "swap" button and have the footage in the little window change places with the main movie (like what TVs and cable boxes do?) It would need to be "on the fly" and the user would need to be able to switch back and forth seamlessly. We're discussing the merits of BD mandating HD resolutions for the secondary video stream in another thread, and I thought this might be a circumstance where it would be benefitial.

Is it possible on HD DVD (even though the second stream would be SD?) Is it possible on BD (assuming you have a profile 1.1 compliant player and software?)

Thank you for your reply, I just don't want to see Microsoft giving up as VC-1 has the potential to be great.
Thanks :).

So there is still a lot of IP left to be considered and MS should have a bigger holding in the next lot, will this be done by the MPEG-LA or by a different arbitrator?
Yes, we will be submitting our patents as they are granted to MPEG-LA. We and other companies in the pool worked very hard to establish the terms and the program there. So we wouldn't want to go and shop for another system.

I have recently been reading and hearing more and more about Mediapile. I was wondering if any insider could comment on their thoughts concerning Mediapile, especially if they see it as future possible competition.

Digital output must have some for of copy protection. Is this what you are asking?


Only partially. If the ICT flags are not set why can't you just use VGA/RGB output on a normal non-HDMI video card? Is that specifically an AACS requirement for PC playback?

My apologies if that was answered years ago and I just forgot, but it came to mind again after your comment on the uncertainty of the effect of possible PC playback.

- Tom

amirm,

Not sure if you seen this or not. But still wanted to know if you have any kind of update on this situation?

Any update on 1440x900 VGA resolution being added? If it is being added and doesnt make the spring release. Will we maybe see it in the fall update?

Only partially. If the ICT flags are not set why can't you just use VGA/RGB output on a normal non-HDMI video card? Is that specifically an AACS requirement for PC playback?

My apologies if that was answered years ago and I just forgot, but it came to mind again after your comment on the uncertainty of the effect of possible PC playback.

- Tom
This was asked a while ago and when I researched, I could not get an answer to it either. I personally don't know a reason why they would enforce such a rule.

amirm,

Not sure if you seen this or not. But still wanted to know if you have any kind of update on this situation?
I don't think it will show up in the upcoming release. But I will keep pushing to see if we can get it implemented in the future.

Bummer. Thanks for the push!

I don't think it will show up in the upcoming release. But I will keep pushing to see if we can get it implemented in the future.

Insiders from both camps -

Is it possible for the studios to code the PiP features (IME, U-Control, etc.) in such a way that the user could hit a "swap" button and have the footage in the little window change places with the main movie (like what TVs and cable boxes do?) It would need to be "on the fly" and the user would need to be able to switch back and forth seamlessly. We're discussing the merits of BD mandating HD resolutions for the secondary video stream in another thread, and I thought this might be a circumstance where it would be benefitial.

Is it possible on HD DVD (even though the second stream would be SD?) Is it possible on BD (assuming you have a profile 1.1 compliant player and software?)
If I understand your scenario correctly, yes, this is simple to do in HD DVD. As soon as the user selects the PiP to go full screen, you switch to another encode of the PiP in full resolution. The advantage of this mechanism is that you do not need to share the bandwidth of the full-screen with the primary experience. Each can be full bandwidth because they are not playing at the same time.

HD DVD also allows zooming using HDi so you could choose the alternative full-screen encode to be at a different resolution, and have it be scaled. This would let you save space as most PiP content is not shot in highest fidelity anyway. You could also zoom it to a subset of the screen and show other stats/graphics, etc. in “full screen” mode. Things you could not do if you don’t have a secondary scalar for the PiP picture.

To make it seamless though, you would need to possibly encode the PiP content differently, allowing more precise seeks into it. But personally, I don’t understand the requirement for it to be “seamless.” You are watching two completely different things when you switch. As such, there is no expectation that this is a seamless switch as the two experiences are unrelated. Yes, you don’t want a pop or glitch but this can be nicely taken care of in HDi by controlling the audio levels/mixing between the two streams. And one can minimize the switch time using the encoding option just mentioned.

Would be interesting to see if BD 1.1 has the ability to scale down PiP and at the same time, have ability to scale the primary window.

Amir,

do you believe all "cheap" Chinese HD DVD players will decode lossless 5.1, like the Toshibas, once they hit the market?

To make it seamless though, you would need to possibly encode the PiP content differently, allowing more precise seeks into it. But personally, I don’t understand the requirement for it to be “seamless.” You are watching two completely different things when you switch. As such, there is no expectation that this is a seamless switch as the two experiences are unrelated. Yes, you don’t want a pop or glitch but this can be nicely taken care of in HDi by controlling the audio levels/mixing between the two streams. And one can minimize the switch time using the encoding option just mentioned.

Would be interesting to see if BD 1.1 has the ability to scale down PiP and at the same time, have ability to scale the primary window.
Thank you for the quick response. To clarify, I meant "seamless" in that you wouldn't have to start the movie over - it would just swap the IME content from the little window to the big window (with the movie now occupying the little window.) A little pause or "flash" is no big deal, imo.

Thank you for the quick response. To clarify, I meant "seamless" in that you wouldn't have to start the movie over - it would just swap the IME content from the little window to the big window (with the movie now occupying the little window.) A little pause or "flash" is no big deal, imo.
Oh, then that is really easy :). We can under HDi control jump into any part of a clip (think bookmarks). So all one does is keep track of where we are in PiP and when the switch comes, we play the alternate full screen one with that as the seek position.

dear amirm,

great work on the hd dvd player , the new upcoming update for it and the elite, my question is will the elite automatcally choose the reesolution for me over hdmi or will i be able to set it myself?

Should a 2.40 aspect ratio Blu-ray or HD-DVD disc be allowed to be advertised as "1080p"?

Does the 1080 mean 1080 lines of resolution or instead only 801 lines of actual resolution 1080*(1.78/2.4) with 279 lines of wasted filler?

dear amirm,

great work on the hd dvd player , the new upcoming update for it and the elite, my question is will the elite automatcally choose the reesolution for me over hdmi or will i be able to set it myself?
It will attempt to query the display and use what it tells it. However, you have the option of refusing that information and forcing it to use other timings if the display implementation (or the response it gives 360) is incorrect.

So yes, it is automatic with the user having the option to override if that doesn't work right.

Should a 2.40 aspect ratio Blu-ray or HD-DVD disc be allowed to be advertised as "1080p"?

Does the 1080 mean 1080 lines of resolution or instead only 801 lines of actual resolution 1080*(1.78/2.4) with 279 lines of wasted filler?
Yes :). 1080p or whatever talks about the signal being output, not how much information it has in it, or even how well it supports that level of resolution. This is very common in the industry. How many times have you seen "24-bit/96Khz DAC" for audio when in reality none of these devices can output such a resolution. And when the play something like the CD, the source is obviously 16-bits, not 24-bits.

Amir,

do you believe all "cheap" Chinese HD DVD players will decode lossless 5.1, like the Toshibas, once they hit the market?
I can't speak for them. What I can say is that we are providing them a platform which can support it. And if Paid is right and it doesn't cost them anything, they should do as we have and support 5.1.

If I understand your scenario correctly, yes, this is simple to do in HD DVD. As soon as the user selects the PiP to go full screen, you switch to another encode of the PiP in full resolution. The advantage of this mechanism is that you do not need to share the bandwidth of the full-screen with the primary experience. Each can be full bandwidth because they are not playing at the same time.

HD DVD also allows zooming using HDi so you could choose the alternative full-screen encode to be at a different resolution, and have it be scaled. This would let you save space as most PiP content is not shot in highest fidelity anyway. You could also zoom it to a subset of the screen and show other stats/graphics, etc. in “full screen” mode. Things you could not do if you don’t have a secondary scalar for the PiP picture.

To make it seamless though, you would need to possibly encode the PiP content differently, allowing more precise seeks into it. But personally, I don’t understand the requirement for it to be “seamless.” You are watching two completely different things when you switch. As such, there is no expectation that this is a seamless switch as the two experiences are unrelated. Yes, you don’t want a pop or glitch but this can be nicely taken care of in HDi by controlling the audio levels/mixing between the two streams. And one can minimize the switch time using the encoding option just mentioned.

Would be interesting to see if BD 1.1 has the ability to scale down PiP and at the same time, have ability to scale the primary window.

Amir;

I be confused.

Does this SWAP feature currently exist? I have the HD-A1 firmware 2.0 and I haven't found a button for it. Have I missed it?.

To put a finer point on this, and with specific reagrd to CHILDREN OF MEN;
does all of this PIP ishness have any negative effect on the resolution of the
main window in full screen?

I be suspicious that it could. cuz over the years I've professionally had WAY too many bad experiences with DVE processing adding nasty noise and artifacts to my video signal [ not so much of late thought. ]

I look forward to being wrong. How's THAT for a thread first ???


-30-

Amir;

I be confused.

Does this SWAP feature currently exist? I have the HD-A1 firmware 2.0 and I haven't found a button for it. Have I missed it?.
There are four programmable buttons (A-D) which can be used by HDi application running on disc to do this. Other buttons could also be used but that might confuse the user.

To put a finer point on this, and with specific reagrd to CHILDREN OF MEN; does all of this PIP ishness have any negative effect on the resolution of the main window in full screen? I be suspicious that it could. cuz over the years I've professionally had WAY too many bad experiences with DVE processing adding nasty noise and artifacts to my video signal not so much of late thought.

Wow, someone who knows what a DVE is! :) Good to run into fellow video professionals around here. (For the benefit of others, DVE is a Digital Video Effects machine used to create picture in picture, 3-D effects and other fancy processing in real-time which you see on TV everyday).

Yes, there is video mixing going on. But no DVE action in the current PiP implementation as the current PiP is in SD so no resizing needs to occur. So if you will, there are more "switcher" issues to pop up here, than DVE. I don't know what Toshiba uses but in Xbox 360 we take extreme care to keep everything in proper YUV domain as to not disturb the original image. Others may map things to RGB, do the mixing there, and then back out to YUV if that is the output format.

HDi does allow the main video to be resized and there you are dealing with a DVE type of effect. First gen Toshiba players did not do well here and if you watch Miami Vice with interactivity on, you see fair amount of aliasing in the video. But with second gen, they do a great job here.

Dear amirm,

THANK YOU VERY MUCH AMIRM FOR ANSWERING MY QUESTION , so esentialy aapril 29th when i get and plug in my elite it will automatically choose it for but i can also select the resolution myself, right?

No, that was a personal offer. I would have paid for it out of my own pocket. We do not make such performance guarantees. Nor does any other company that I am aware of in this space.
Amir,

I was afraid you were going to say that :( For the record Amir, outside of the AQ issues, the add-on has a great picture. The add-on (via a VGA cable) looks equally as good as my standalone Blu-Ray player (HDMI) on my 56" Samsung DLP.

Once you guys address the audio bugs, the add-on will be well worth the puchase price, and will tide me over for the next 12 months or so depending on what happens with this crazy format war. And I really appreciate your contributions to this board. Although it is frustrating waiting for a fix, I do honestly believe that you are doing everything in your power to get these issues addressed.

BTW, I would be more than happy to beta test any audio patches for the add-on should you need a few volunteers ;)

Keep it up..

-Tim

Any insiders care to comment on Samsung's new dual-format player?As I've mentioned before, at this point I think consumers are poorly-served by anything which extends the format war. With the vast majority of the CE and studio communities supporting Blu-ray, better specs in virtually every category, and already having effectively ended the format war in Japan and Australia, the release of dual-format players only increases the chances of a)neither HD format succeeding, or b)consumers being saddled forever players with largely redundant support for two formats, resulting in higher costs (hardware and patent burdens), increased complexity, poorer performance (due to compromises required to support two formats), and less innovation (due to development time focusing on integrating the formats and fixing twice the bugs rather than innovating in other areas).
First Dreamworks as a major studio announces dual-format support, and now Samsung as a major CE company.As a subsidiary of Paramount, Dreamworks was largely expected to fall into the neutral category.

- Talk

Even more puzzling is why PS3 is behind in implementing it [secondary video]. Since it has the lion share of BD players, you would think if it had full support, some studios would target it. So either the PS3 lacks the functionality, or having partial support in the installed base is not good enough for the studios.Or any number of other possibilities you fail to mention here, such as waiting to ensure they can adequately test the support against content from multiple studios, higher-priority features in the PS3 firmware update pipeline, or a strategic decision not to release secondary video support until it's also supported by at least one standalone player, to name only three hypothetical possibilities.

BD companies have a serious problem called PS3. They simply cannot market products that do the same thing as PS3 but cost the same or more.This argument ignores the fact that there is little cost difference to manufacture an HD DVD player vs a Blu-ray player. Therefore, either Toshiba is taking a loss on each HD-A2 (a strategy they can't pursue forever), or Blu-ray vendors can drop prices to similar levels when such a move is justified.

Is it possible for the studios to code the PiP features (IME, U-Control, etc.) in such a way that the user could hit a "swap" button and have the footage in the little window change places with the main movie (like what TVs and cable boxes do?) It would need to be "on the fly" and the user would need to be able to switch back and forth seamlessly. We're discussing the merits of BD mandating HD resolutions for the secondary video stream in another thread, and I thought this might be a circumstance where it would be benefitial.Correct; because Blu-ray secondary video supports essentially the same specs on either primary or secondary video (whereas the HD DVD spec mandates far lower resolution/bitrates for secondary video) you could support this quite easily assuming you have enough bandwidth for full-resolution encodes of both primary and secondary video. With typical PiP material (director commentary, etc.) I don't think this would be an issue, but it would certainly be possible to construct video for which this wouldn't be feasible without degrading PQ.

Note that an example was given by Amir for this effect being achieved on HD DVD by switching to a separate encoding of the PiP material as full-screen. I believe the issue here is that would require seamless branching, and to my knowledge bandwidth limits generally preclude you from branching at any arbitrary point; branch points generally have to be carefully planned to ensure a seamless transition. I understand tools are available to help with this, but I've not heard they would allow arbitrary branching at any point the user hits a button.

- Talk

I'm surprised this hasn't received more attention (only one poster even responded).

Regarding WB's lack of lossless Dolby TrueHD on BD where corresponding HD DVD titles offer it, Paidgeek said:

According to WB, the titles that were released on both formats that provided DD THD on HD-DVD but not BD were the result of a problem with authoring DD THD discovered at a point in time to close to a critical ship date to hold back. The problem with the authoring tool was quickly corrected, so this situation should not come up again.

Paidgeek,

that seems strange given the long duration (months) of the disparity seen between lossless on HD DVD but not BD. Superman and Charlie and the Chocolate Factory were released months ago, and Happy feet just recently. In all that time WB couldn't figure out how to author a BD with Dolby TrueHD?

Also, WB has even announced *TotalHD* discs which have yet to be released... again with specs that provide lossless Dolby TrueHD for the HD DVD side but *not* for the BD side.

If WB really was willing/wanting to provide parity with audio for both formats, why would they still be announcing *future* releases where the lossless audio for BD is omitted in the released specs?

If you have a source you're able to contact at Warner, could you ask these questions?

Correct; because Blu-ray secondary video supports essentially the same specs on either primary or secondary video (whereas the HD DVD spec mandates far lower resolution/bitrates for secondary video) you could support this quite easily assuming you have enough bandwidth for full-resolution encodes of both primary and secondary video. With typical PiP material (director commentary, etc.) I don't think this would be an issue, but it would certainly be possible to construct video for which this wouldn't be feasible without degrading PQ.

Note that an example was given by Amir for this effect being achieved on HD DVD by switching to a separate encoding of the PiP material as full-screen. I believe the issue here is that would require seamless branching, and to my knowledge bandwidth limits generally preclude you from branching at any arbitrary point; branch points generally have to be carefully planned to ensure a seamless transition. I understand tools are available to help with this, but I've not heard they would allow arbitrary branching at any point the user hits a button.


BTW, any thoughts about using the dual-video streams for 3-D encoding? All you'd need is a player with firmware to either matrix the two 1080p24 streams into a sterescopic 1080p48 stream for shutter-glasses or have a player with dual HDMI output for dual projection with polorized glasses.

Tom in the projector forum posted that JVC will show 3D using polarized lenses on two RS1s and 2 video streams. Keith pointed out in the discussion thread that more theatres and movies are going with 3D capabilities. So following on the PiP swap question.

Can HD DVD/BD formats support the secondary stream be used for that and if so are there any manufacturers thinking about releasing a player that will support this.

(just in case it is not clear, what I was thinking of is a player (with the disk encoded for this purpose) with dual output, one stream is the left pic, the other the right pic, the player sends one stream to one (Left) projector and the second to a second one (Right) and we see 3D using polarized glasses) So instead of PiP (small box on screen) we get two full screen images.

Correct; because Blu-ray secondary video supports essentially the same specs on either primary or secondary video (whereas the HD DVD spec mandates far lower resolution/bitrates for secondary video) you could support this quite easily assuming you have enough bandwidth for full-resolution encodes of both primary and secondary video. With typical PiP material (director commentary, etc.) I don't think this would be an issue, but it would certainly be possible to construct video for which this wouldn't be feasible without degrading PQ.

Note that an example was given by Amir for this effect being achieved on HD DVD by switching to a separate encoding of the PiP material as full-screen. I believe the issue here is that would require seamless branching, and to my knowledge bandwidth limits generally preclude you from branching at any arbitrary point; branch points generally have to be carefully planned to ensure a seamless transition. I understand tools are available to help with this, but I've not heard they would allow arbitrary branching at any point the user hits a button.

- Talk
Thanks for the quick reply, Talk.

..........Also, WB has even announced *TotalHD* discs which have yet to be released... again with specs that provide lossless Dolby TrueHD for the HD DVD side but *not* for the BD side.

If WB really was willing/wanting to provide parity with audio for both formats, why would they still be announcing *future* releases where the lossless audio for BD is omitted in the released specs?

Very good question Dave. I too have my concerns about Warner and the future state of their releases.

Amir, I know you get many questions and it is impossible to answer them all. However my main concern is one of many since I hear it quite a lot in many different ways. This is concerning post number 3859 in this thread where I show concern about what would happen if both formats remain on the market. Also where TL51 never becomes the standard for HD-DVD and all movie studio's go neutral. We all have seen how sub-par many of the Warner releases have already been for Blu-Ray. My number one concern with both formats remaining indefinitely as they are in the market is that most studio's will follow Warner Bros. path to save money and only do one encode leaving 20GB or more of space on the BD disc wasted not to mention never going beyond any specs that HD-DVD can't reach. I would rather see two encodes that reach the max specs of each format and have the general public be able to choose which version of the same film they prefer. I believe Paramount has done this already with a few titles. Having a dual format player and format neutrality makes sense if studio support was cut in half equally and movie’s either appear on one format or the other.. However it is a stupid idea in my opinion to have them both coexist forever side by side and the same movie shows up looking exactly the same on both. Especially if they were both encoded to fit the smaller of the two discs and not utilizing the more advanced disc design to its full potential. Again I will say this that I am perfectly OK with having two formats if two distinct encodes are done for each that utilize the extra space and bandwidth available on the disc for the best quality possible.

So Amir, what do you think about my concerns above and is triple layer HD-DVD 51GB coming out soon enough that this concern won't be as much of an issue for all of us who are on the sidelines of this format war any longer? Also, would HD-DVD TL51's allow for a higher Maximum Bitrate or would that still be lower than that of Blu-Ray by roughly18Mbit/s give or take?

Thank you Amir for taking the time to read all of our questions and concerns. I appreciate you coming on here and responding to most of our questions.

Tom in the projector forum posted that JVC will show 3D using polarized lenses on two RS1s and 2 video streams. Keith pointed out in the discussion thread that more theatres and movies are going with 3D capabilities. So following on the PiP swap question.

Can HD DVD/BD formats support the secondary stream be used for that and if so are there any manufacturers thinking about releasing a player that will support this.
While there are certainly lots of applicable technology in the HD formats that could be used as the basis for a 3D player/format, it would be a pretty significant addition to the spec, requiring new players, new standards, new test content etcetera. It would be much less work than starting from scratch, but it's still a lot of work.

The only way to do it without going through that kind of multi-year process would be to use interlaced video, @ 60i, with one field for each eye. This has been used for past shutter-based 3D display approaches.

Amir, I know you get many questions and it is impossible to answer them all. However my main concern is one of many since I hear it quite a lot in many different ways. This is concerning post number 3859 in this thread where I show concern about what would happen if both formats remain on the market. Also where TL51 never becomes the standard for HD-DVD and all movie studio's go neutral. We all have seen how sub-par many of the Warner releases have already been for Blu-Ray. My number one concern with both formats remaining indefinitely as they are in the market is that most studio's will follow Warner Bros. path to save money and only do one encode leaving 20GB or more of space on the BD disc wasted not to mention never going beyond any specs that HD-DVD can't reach. I would rather see two encodes that reach the max specs of each format and have the general public be able to choose which version of the same film they prefer. I believe Paramount has done this already with a few titles. Having a dual format player and format neutrality makes sense if studio support was cut in half equally and movie’s either appear on one format or the other.. However it is a stupid idea in my opinion to have them both coexist forever side by side and the same movie shows up looking exactly the same on both. Especially if they were both encoded to fit the smaller of the two discs and not utilizing the more advanced disc design to its full potential. Again I will say this that I am perfectly OK with having two formats if two distinct encodes are done for each that utilize the extra space and bandwidth available on the disc for the best quality possible.
Again, let me reiterate that a number of post houses wondered if they could get better quality out of a BD spec VC-1, and made different encodes. And even though they looked hard, there wasn't a difference in the PQ between an optimal HD DVD encode and an optimal BD encode. That studios use the same encode for both is simply because they don't bother do something twice to get an identical result.

FWIW, there are titles on the market with different encodes for both formats, and no one has noticed :). I kind of wish there were more of them, and I could tell you which they were just so we could stop aruging over this point here...

...I kind of wish there were more of them, and I could tell you which they were just so we could stop aruging over this point here...Any more info without getting yourself in trouble?
Are those titles actually movies from major studios? Released in the US?

Diogen.

Yes, there is video mixing going on. But no DVE action in the current PiP implementation as the current PiP is in SD so no resizing needs to occur. So if you will, there are more "switcher" issues to pop up here, than DVE. I don't know what Toshiba uses but in Xbox 360 we take extreme care to keep everything in proper YUV domain as to not disturb the original image. Others may map things to RGB, do the mixing there, and then back out to YUV if that is the output format.

HDi does allow the main video to be resized and there you are dealing with a DVE type of effect. First gen Toshiba players did not do well here and if you watch Miami Vice with interactivity on, you see fair amount of aliasing in the video. But with second gen, they do a great job here.

Amir,

Thanks for the details -- one quick clarification; may we assume that with the
interactivity turned OFF that there is no additional main image video processing of any kind.?
Or is that a title by title issue.?

I am truly loving my HD-DVD deck but old habits/worries about video resizing die hard

. . . . and yet again for the record, I prefer my extras available separately AND with an index so I can see them all without having to watch the film.


-30-

Talk, HP says that HD DVD hardware is cheaper to produce than BD and Panny says the high cost of BD players is due to the blue laser used for BD (which I believe is different than the one used for HD DVD). So, how are you saying that the costs of HD DVD and BD players are the same? Is HP mis-informed?

Again, let me reiterate that a number of post houses wondered if they could get better quality out of a BD spec VC-1, and made different encodes. And even though they looked hard, there wasn't a difference in the PQ between an optimal HD DVD encode and an optimal BD encode. That studios use the same encode for both is simply because they don't bother do something twice to get an identical result.

FWIW, there are titles on the market with different encodes for both formats, and no one has noticed :). I kind of wish there were more of them, and I could tell you which they were just so we could stop aruging over this point here...

Ben are you stating that for VC-1 encodes for film reach the point of diminishing returns for encode quality at the 12-15 Mbps range?

If this is the case, would that be the same for AVC?

Again, let me reiterate that a number of post houses wondered if they could get better quality out of a BD spec VC-1, and made different encodes. And even though they looked hard, there wasn't a difference in the PQ between an optimal HD DVD encode and an optimal BD encode. That studios use the same encode for both is simply because they don't bother do something twice to get an identical result.

FWIW, there are titles on the market with different encodes for both formats, and no one has noticed :). I kind of wish there were more of them, and I could tell you which they were just so we could stop aruging over this point here...

We know the Nine Inch Nails disc is one of them. Isn't The Sopranos a different encode also?

As I've mentioned before, at this point I think consumers are poorly-served by anything which extends the format war. With the vast majority of the CE and studio communities supporting Blu-ray, better specs in virtually every category, and already having effectively ended the format war in Japan and Australia, the release of dual-format players only increases the chances of
a)neither HD format succeeding, or
b)consumers being saddled forever players with largely redundant support for two formats,
resulting in higher costs (hardware and patent burdens), increased complexity, poorer performance (due to compromises required to support two formats), and less innovation (due to development time focusing on integrating the formats and fixing twice the bugs rather than innovating in other areas).

Hi Talk

You are not the first person to claim format war victory for bluray :p
I don't believe things are that simple.

To buy bluray discs in australia costs almost twice as much as hddvd discs.
To buy a bluray player costs over three times as much as a hddvd player.

We already have higher prices, increased complexity, poor performance in the HD format "war". But there is anything but less innovation!
I think it is great to have two major standards delivering HD content to consumers.
It keeps things competitive and promotes innovation among manufacturers/studios.

When can we expect to see bluray hardware/software getting to a reasonable price for the average consumer?

I'm surprised this hasn't received more attention (only one poster even responded).

Regarding WB's lack of lossless Dolby TrueHD on BD where corresponding HD DVD titles offer it, Paidgeek said:



Paidgeek,

that seems strange given the long duration (months) of the disparity seen between lossless on HD DVD but not BD. Superman and Charlie and the Chocolate Factory were released months ago, and Happy feet just recently. In all that time WB couldn't figure out how to author a BD with Dolby TrueHD?

Also, WB has even announced *TotalHD* discs which have yet to be released... again with specs that provide lossless Dolby TrueHD for the HD DVD side but *not* for the BD side.

If WB really was willing/wanting to provide parity with audio for both formats, why would they still be announcing *future* releases where the lossless audio for BD is omitted in the released specs?

If you have a source you're able to contact at Warner, could you ask these questions?

I will ask WB about their future intentions for lossless on BD.

One possible reason for announcing lossless on HD-DVD but not on BD where the THD disc is concerned is that it will likely be a 30/25 configuration. The 5GB deficit coming from not using a full capacity BD may be affecting their ability to use lossless on both.

Ben are you stating that for VC-1 encodes for film reach the point of diminishing returns for encode quality at the 12-15 Mbps range?

If this is the case, would that be the same for AVC?
No, it is not the same. You have to turn up the bitrate enough to shut down the loop filter which means much less quantization that would occur at those bit rates.

However, AVC does look a lot more pleasant at those rates than MPEG-2 does. It just won't quite have the same effective resolution.

Amir,

Thanks for the details -- one quick clarification; may we assume that with the
interactivity turned OFF that there is no additional main image video processing of any kind.?
Or is that a title by title issue.?
You would hope that would be the case. But there is no way to be sure as people could still leave the same pipeline running as to avoid glitches and pops when they switch (of course, they could have glitchless switching also).

I am truly loving my HD-DVD deck but old habits/worries about video resizing die hard
I am with you :). On top of looking for video faults, I am also looking for compression faults.

This argument ignores the fact that there is little cost difference to manufacture an HD DVD player vs a Blu-ray player. Therefore, either Toshiba is taking a loss on each HD-A2 (a strategy they can't pursue forever), or Blu-ray vendors can drop prices to similar levels when such a move is justified.
Not sure how to say this but you are thinking too hard :). There are various reasons why cost could be higher or lower. But the top factor is volume. Toshiba has it. BD stand-alone products don't. Here is the ranking on Amazon today:

Toshiba HD-A2: #5
Samsung BD: #22
Sony BD: #38
Panasonic: Not in top 100 DVD players!
And I don’t need to remind you of the exponential nature of the above curve with respect volume.

This means that Toshiba is enjoying much higher volume today, and much better pricing with their suppliers as a result. For other to catch up, they would have to put in orders at least as large as Toshiba, and take a big chance with volumes which may simply not be there.

On top of the above, you can add in the lower manufacturing cost of the OPU for HD DVD and you get an insurmountable barrier for others to cross. And if you are right that Toshiba is subsidizing HD DVD, then they can kiss any opportunity goodbye as I doubt that any one of them want to subsidize BD players.

Of course, Sony could start to subsidize their player but as their executives have said on record, they can only afford to subsidize so many products.

Anyway, if you disagree and like to bet against this logic, please go ahead. Tell me who will match or exceed the volume of Toshiba player this holiday and will be able to match them in pricing. I will bookmark the page and come back to it at the appropriate time! :)

?? HD-DVD disks are simply not available in Australia, and I've never spotted a HD-DVD player either. Samsung BD retails for A$1500, and while you could probably import a HD-DVD player for half that you could also import a Samsung at its USA discounted rate and end up far closer.
The real issue is that virtually all CE equipment here is much more expensive than in the States. GST, shipping costs, and exchange rates don't explain the full differences in price though :(
Relative to DVD market, how big would you say BD+HD DVD sales are in Australia? Less than 10%? Less than 5%? Less than 1%?

Here is the ranking on Amazon today:

Toshiba HD-A2: #5
Samsung BD: #22
Sony BD: #38
Panasonic: Not in top 100 DVD players!
And I don’t need to remind you of the exponential nature of the above curve with respect volume.

This means that Toshiba is enjoying much higher volume today, and much better pricing with their suppliers as a result. For other to catch up, they would have to put in orders at least as large as Toshiba, and take a big chance with volumes which may simply not be there.

:)

Doesn't the higer volume for Toshiba come from being the only stand alone game in town? Any idea what the difference in units sold is to go from #5 to #22 or #38?

Doesn't the higer volume for Toshiba come from being the only stand alone game in town?
However it got there, it still supports my notion that they have higher volumes and with that, lower cost basis. Unless you are suggesting that all the BD companies will get behind one brand and give up on their own, then they all have a major disadvantage cost wise. This is already reflected in their much higher prices.

Any idea what the difference in units sold is to go from #5 to #22 or #38?
I don't. What I do know that is that three of the players above it in sales rank cost less than $100!

BTW, the situation is only going to get worse for BD players given the new Toshiba pricing.

Not sure how to say this but you are thinking too hard :). There are various reasons why cost could be higher or lower. But the top factor is volume. Toshiba has it. BD stand-alone products don't. Here is the ranking on Amazon today:

Toshiba HD-A2: #5
Samsung BD: #22
Sony BD: #38
Panasonic: Not in top 100 DVD players!
And I don’t need to remind you of the exponential nature of the above curve with respect volume.

This means that Toshiba is enjoying much higher volume today, and much better pricing with their suppliers as a result. For other to catch up, they would have to put in orders at least as large as Toshiba, and take a big chance with volumes which may simply not be there.

On top of the above, you can add in the lower manufacturing cost of the OPU for HD DVD and you get an insurmountable barrier for others to cross. And if you are right that Toshiba is subsidizing HD DVD, then they can kiss any opportunity goodbye as I doubt that any one of them want to subsidize BD players.

Of course, Sony could start to subsidize their player but as their executives have said on record, they can only afford to subsidize so many products.

Anyway, if you disagree and like to bet against this logic, please go ahead. Tell me who will match or exceed the volume of Toshiba player this holiday and will be able to match them in pricing. I will bookmark the page and come back to it at the appropriate time! :)
Amirm, speaking of rankings, the Planet Earth box set on HD DVD which is selling for $70 just broke the Top 5 sales rank on Amazon.com. To my knowledge this is the first high-definition title to reach this milestone. What studio or studios in particular do you think are paying close attention to this sort of success for HD DVD?

Amirm, speaking of rankings, the Planet Earth box set on HD DVD which is selling for $70 just broke the Top 5 sales rank on Amazon.com. To my knowledge this is the first high-definition title to reach this milestone. What studio or studios in particular do you think are paying close attention to this sort of success for HD DVD?
Yes, I just noticed it. Did I say I LOVE AVS forum for finding these little jewels? :)

Having high dollar titles like this doing well, shows that we are still at enthusiast/collector stage of the market. Of course, such titles are highly profitable so it is great news no matter which studio we are talking about.

Again, let me reiterate that a number of post houses wondered if they could get better quality out of a BD spec VC-1, and made different encodes. And even though they looked hard, there wasn't a difference in the PQ between an optimal HD DVD encode and an optimal BD encode. That studios use the same encode for both is simply because they don't bother do something twice to get an identical result.

FWIW, there are titles on the market with different encodes for both formats, and no one has noticed :). I kind of wish there were more of them, and I could tell you which they were just so we could stop aruging over this point here...

This sounds like something The Look and Sound of Perfect should be working hard to get permission to divulge and capitalize on...are there efforts to be able to divulge such information for marketing purposes as well as technical purposes?

Any insider,

I have been scrambling to find which encode is used for Planet Earth on disc. Does anyone know?

Something tells me that if it were VC-1, benwaggoner or Amir would have brought it up by now, so my guess is it's AVC.

Correct; because Blu-ray secondary video supports essentially the same specs on either primary or secondary video (whereas the HD DVD spec mandates far lower resolution/bitrates for secondary video) you could support this quite easily assuming you have enough bandwidth for full-resolution encodes of both primary and secondary video. With typical PiP material (director commentary, etc.) I don't think this would be an issue, but it would certainly be possible to construct video for which this wouldn't be feasible without degrading PQ.

Note that an example was given by Amir for this effect being achieved on HD DVD by switching to a separate encoding of the PiP material as full-screen. I believe the issue here is that would require seamless branching, and to my knowledge bandwidth limits generally preclude you from branching at any arbitrary point; branch points generally have to be carefully planned to ensure a seamless transition. I understand tools are available to help with this, but I've not heard they would allow arbitrary branching at any point the user hits a button.

- Talk
No, we don't need seamless branching because there is by definition a seam when you go from the movie, to PiP playing by itself.

And if you think about this a bit more, you realize that you have far less bandwidth than HD DVD to allocate to the PiP track. We have combined bandwidth of 60 mbit/sec for HD DVD scenario. Hey, we can have lossless audio for our full screen PiP. And even 5-6 secondary audio tracks. Yes, even dubbed tracks could be in lossless! Can you do all of this with what is left out of the main movie bandwidth? See, two can play the bandwidth and audio quality game :p.

In addition, the SD PiP in HD DVD uses the richer 709 color space and by using VC-1, it can be artifact free. As such, we can upscale it and have even a better experience than DVD upscaled today. So tell me how many people would demand more than this for their PiP experience.

While there are certainly lots of applicable technology in the HD formats that could be used as the basis for a 3D player/format, it would be a pretty significant addition to the spec, requiring new players, new standards, new test content etcetera. It would be much less work than starting from scratch, but it's still a lot of work.

The only way to do it without going through that kind of multi-year process would be to use interlaced video, @ 60i, with one field for each eye. This has been used for past shutter-based 3D display approaches.

Thanks for taking the time Ben. But not sure I understand.

Obviously new players (none are dual output at this time) but I though the secondary stream can be full screen, is there a rule that both can't be full screen. There will need to be some standardization on left/right but what more would be needed?

as for 60i can't see how that would work. There are three techs that I know for 3D (as described from the glasses

1) red/blue glasses - nothing new no issue with what is there today but sucks
2) timed intervals - but all of them need the glasses connected to the movie and encoding for the player for what eye to open (and all of them are so far 120fps)
3) polarized - light has a "directionality", you need two polarized image with different "directionality (i.e. for one eye the light ray looks like | and the other like - the - can pass through the = lens but not the | light and the opposite for the other lens) The easiest way is to have two sources

Amir, in regards to VC-1 being used for PiP and extra features...
When it begins being used, what kind of image quality improvements can you get for the same bit rate and file size of an mpeg2 encoded video?
For instance could we get the same amount/length of special feature content as current HD DVD discs have (carried over from a 2 disc DVD set)... but in 720p?
I ask as it would be good to have a gauge as to what improves we can expect once all HD DVD content is purpose made for the format. I wouldn't be really bothered in seeing all talking-head features in 720p at all. That would be a waste of space. But some well made documentaries and features detailing the special effects would be good to see in HD.
And how many hours of 'SD VC-1' can you fit on a HD-30 alongside a 2 hour movie?

Can I just repeat everyone else when I say thanks for taking the time to answer questions. That extends to all the insiders who contribute. This thread is fascinating to read and is kind of a microcosm/news source for the whole format war thingy. It's funny to see you insiders bicker like everyone else.

Amir, you mentioned previously about Universals demo at CES and making online trailers available. Since then there have been many members asking about it in different threads. Can you tell if us if any of this will actually become available to us in the near future? How close is this go going live?

Is there any truth to the recent suggestion by an insider in another forum that Universal is being paid to remain HD-DVD exclusive? Considering the history of one of the companies involved, I don't think too many people would be terribly surprised. Can someone confirm, deny or otherwise offer an informed opinion on this subject?

Paidgeek,

WRT to Crouching Tiger.

1. MPEG2 or AVC?
2. BD25 or BD50?
3. Uncompressed PCM?

Is there any truth to the recent suggestion by an insider in another forum that Universal is being paid to remain HD-DVD exclusive? Considering the history of one of the companies involved, I don't think too many people would be terribly surprised. Can someone confirm, deny or otherwise offer an informed opinion on this subject?
Something tells me that is a BD insider. If so, here is a good way to find out what they really know. Ask him/her what the deal between Sony and Fox, Disney and LG is that is keeping them exclusive. If the person claims ignorance, and doesn't know what is going on in their own camp, you might still not know the situation with Universal. But you will know a hell of a lot about the intentions of that "insider"and how much weight to put on his/her opinion! :)

Amir, you mentioned previously about Universals demo at CES and making online trailers available. Since then there have been many members asking about it in different threads. Can you tell if us if any of this will actually become available to us in the near future? How close is this go going live?
I really can't disclose such information. Our goal at shows is to show consumers and content owners the capabilities of the platform. When/if they deploy them, is up to them. Our track record though is pretty good here. We should interactivity scenarios around Bourne at CES the year before and the final title had many of the same elements...

Amir:

HD DVD became available almost one year ago. That's a very special occasion coming.
Is there something being planned to mark the date?
Some (big) event? Any (even bigger) announcement?
We all know there will be a party... but parties are for insiders...
Besides that, anything?

Thanks for taking the time Ben. But not sure I understand.

Obviously new players (none are dual output at this time) but I though the secondary stream can be full screen, is there a rule that both can't be full screen. There will need to be some standardization on left/right but what more would be needed?
It's more that any standardization is a long process. Specs are written, conformance test content is produced, interoperability testing events are held.

as for 60i can't see how that would work. There are three techs that I know for 3D (as described from the glasses

1) red/blue glasses - nothing new no issue with what is there today but sucks
2) timed intervals - but all of them need the glasses connected to the movie and encoding for the player for what eye to open (and all of them are so far 120fps)
3) polarized - light has a "directionality", you need two polarized image with different "directionality (i.e. for one eye the light ray looks like | and the other like - the - can pass through the = lens but not the | light and the opposite for the other lens) The easiest way is to have two sources
Top field would go to the left eye, bottom field to the right. This would work on current players, but with a special display technology.

Amongst the (many) discussions in the "Battle" thread, the issue of the potential for decoding a lossless audio stream to render a non-lossless result was brought up. This was in the context of why PCM might be preferable to lossless codecs.

The contention was that given a particular encoding path/optimization on the front end, the decoder on the back end might find itself out of MIPS under some set of circumstances, and therefore you were in danger of not really getting identical bits back.

My thoughts are:

- the behavior of the encode/decode is deterministic for all of the sample formats/data rates within the spec

- conformance tests exist to test pathological cases such that these extremes are already exercised prior to certification/logo'ing, etc...

- multi-core SoC designs that contain many functional blocks (i.e. audio decode, video decode, video plane scaling, CPU core, etc...) are built/tested such that individual blocks are not allowed to step on each other's toes (i.e.- max data rate video decode doesn't saturate the memory pipeline such that you can't get samples in/out of the audio decoder)

As such, I believe the concern is a non-issue. Furthermore, I've NEVER heard of CE equipment being widely criticised for it's codecs (be they lossy or otherwise) not outputting the correct bitstream due to lack decoder horsepower. Finally, I'd suspect that the error condition in such a case would be a an audible glitch in the output (not some graceful degradation), such that if this were an issue, it would be pretty darn noticeable.

I ask the insider's for their opinion on this. Thanks.

Any insider,

I have been scrambling to find which encode is used for Planet Earth on disc. Does anyone know?

[quote]Something tells me that if it were VC-1, benwaggoner or Amir would have brought it up by now, so my guess is it's AVC.
You want to bet? :D

Seriously, we tend to not want to comment on unreleased products. It also takes a bit of time to research things that are done overseas. But I will bend the rules here and say that I am pretty sure it is encoded in VC-1.

I would assume Amir is the best person to ask as he quoted in many of the articles.

With the Press Releases today at NAB on Microsoft's new commercial VC-1 Encoder SDK and the SDK being used in the Sonic Solutions CineVision PSE. Is this the beginning of the tools to enable home comsumers (me) to produce VC-1 HD DVDs or is it about additional tools for the professional?

Thanks.

Oh, the use of VC-1 in Sliverlight looks pretty cool.

Adam

amir,

It has been stated that the audio fix is done, and that for the Xbox 360 fix, they are working on Title compatibility.

Since there are new HD-DVD's released every week does that mean, you are still testing those new titles or is there a line that has to be drawn?

Since you could always push a "monthly or bi weekly" title compatibility update for the newer titles later?

Amir/Ben,

I have some DVD-audio titles, like the LOTR Complete Recordings, which came along CDs or DVDs. I'd really like to play them, but I'm not gonna buy a DVD-Audio player just for that. I considered buying a multi-player some time ago, but since my HD-A1 upscales DVDs so well, it would be redundant.

Since the Toshibas don't have the necessary licenses to play MLP off DVD-Audio discs, I want to try a different route:

DVD-audio security was hacked in 2005, and it seems possible to rip the MLP (PPCM) streams from the AOB files to your hard disk. I know it's illegal and all, but DVD-audio is a dead format anyway... And it's not like I'm posting those streams on P2P networks.

My idea, and I'd like to know its feasibility today, was to burn those MLP streams back into a 4.7GB DVD-R, but formatted as an audio only HD-DVD. Is this possible at all? Can it be done without expensive professional authoring software?
What if I decoded the MLP streams into 6 48/24 WAVs? Would it be easier to create an audio-only HDDVD using PCM instead of MLP (with the resulting need of multiple discs)?

Thanks for the great work you keep doing here, with answers as complete as possible. And from my POV (a format neutral guy who roots for both formats to 'win'), I like it that your answers seem always balanced, never making me feel I'm being sold something instead of being informed.

Plus, two additional qusetions I forgot to include in the last post:

1- Sony began selling its BluRay player here officially this month, even though there are NO BluRay titles in Latin AMerica. Toshiba announced they'd release their players during the holiday season, but it never happened. Microsoft sells the 360 officially here, but not the add-on. Do you have any idea when HD-DVD will begin being promoted in Latin America? And more importantly, do you know if any discs are being considered for a local release?

2- Any new info on the chinese HDDVD player that we saw a leaked picture of some days ago?

Amir,

Another Elite question, but I believe this has not been asked.

Will there ever be a possibility of the Elite having a 5.1 Analog dongle cable to allow for true Dolby true HD support.? I believe this would be possible, and maybe a good option since the HDMI feature is not capable of transferring the full lossless DTHD soundtrack.

Thanks in advance.

Amir, will the HD-DVD trailer be in NYC for the Home Entertainment Expo beginning on May 8th? It was nice to have met you at CES.

Amir,

For what it is worth, Dr. Know echoes the concerns of many of us 360 add-on owners. Am I at the point where I only buy and watch Blu-Ray movies right now because of the audio issues on the 360 add-on. I have literally not watched an HD DVD movie for almost one month because I am waiting for the fix. I have a number of titles I am interested in buying on HD DVD but I really want to experience the movie with the audio fix.

I think we all realize that you are in a difficult position here, but there is a very lengthy thread in the HD DVD player section with some very upset people.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=757895

Any information you can share may help calm the masses...

Regards.

Hey Amir,

Care to comment?

Blu-ray insiders:

Is it true that Blu-ray players have mandatory support for 5.1 (6) channel LPCM at 24bit, 192kHz?

If so why is 7.1 (8) channels not supported?

Are players required to have DAC's that are capable of 24/192 or would it be acceptable to use every other sample or something similar?

Do you think we will ever see 5.1 24/192 get used or is it just there to fluff up the specs?

any update on when the audio fix is coming, for the add on?

I don't think it will show up in the upcoming release. But I will keep pushing to see if we can get it implemented in the future.
Amir,

Might you also push for two other even more common computer monitor vga resolutions? Namely:

1) 1920 x 1200, native resolution for 24" 16:10 widescreen lcd diplays

2) 1600 x 1200, used as native resolutions on most all 19" 4:3


And thank you very much for all the info and help you have and still are providing.

Amir: you made a couple of posts on PiP swapping.

in the general thread some guys said they were not sure what you meant and when I posted someone said I am wrong and either I or he will ask (I guess he did not). I hope you don't mind me asking for you to confirm my interpretation or correct where it is wrong.

HD DVD requires players to be able to decode two video streams. The specs require much less for the second video stream ( <=4mbps for AVC/VC-1, <=6mbps MPEG-2, lower resolution).

Usually the secondary stream is in a smaller subsection of the screen (PiP) but if a studio decides to add the PiP swapping in a title (use the secondary on the main screen and the primary in the PiP) then the main screen isn't getting high quality.


If we call the two streams A and B (and use upper case to denote higher quality and lower case for lower quality) what you are saying is a studio who wants high quality when swapped could encode on a disk Ab and later Ba and use branching to do the PiP swap so in Ab mode b is lower quality but is also in the PiP box and in Ba mode a is lower quality but is in the PiP.

And that is why you said 60mbps because they are at two different places and so each is 30mbps (for example on part of the disk A could be 20mbps, b 4mbps and the rest 6mbps and on the other half of the disk B could be 20mbps, a 4mbps and the rest 6mbps
-----
PS isn't BD 48mbps A/V? so couldn't the BD versionk be 20mbps A, 20mbps B and 6mbps the rest?

You can certainly do this with HD DVD. You just need an HD DVD authoring tool and standard DVD burner. Then encode away in PCM. Without video, there is no need to even compress the audio. You will be able to get almost 2 hours of audio in 5.1, 24-bit/48khz in standard dual layer DVD. For longer content, then TrueHD can be used or some kind of HD DVD burner.

Ben can advise on which tool is suitable for consumer use (Ulead?) or you can check out threads on creating HD DVDs.

Any comment on this Ben? Perusing through Nero & Ulead forums, I don't see anyone creating music-only or music+slideshow HD DVD on DVD-R/RW.

Amirm,
I bet this has been asked before, but honestly, I would prefer not to go through the 132 pages to try to find the answers.

Is there an estimate on when an audio patch for the XBox 360's HD-DVD add-on will be released? The patch/fix I am asking about is for the audio sync on some HD-DVD's as well as it being "flat".

Any insider:

Is there any vague timeframe for internet connectivity usage other than firmware updates for the near future?

dear amir,

as others have now expressed their desire for the audio fix too, I would really ask you to please get back to MS and tell them that their customers actually want the audio-update SOON and don't care about other issues for now. if the update is really ready to go, I really don't see the necessity of holding it back until the playback issues have been dealt with.

regards,

stefan

With the Press Releases today at NAB on Microsoft's new commercial VC-1 Encoder SDK and the SDK being used in the Sonic Solutions CineVision PSE. Is this the beginning of the tools to enable home comsumers (me) to produce VC-1 HD DVDs or is it about additional tools for the professional?
Yes, exactly! We'll be providing implementations of VC-1 for HD DVD and BD available for license in a wide variety of products at a wide variety of price points.

PEP was always an extremely high end tool, and it will remain so as CineVision PSE. But most consumers don't need a 16-way blade system with segment reencoding :). We want to help deliver our great VC-1 implementation to every market VC-1 can be used in.

Oh, the use of VC-1 in Sliverlight looks pretty cool.
It is. FWIW, I encoded all the Fox and Universal content being used for all the Silverlight demos here at NAB. We've got 720p24 VC-1 playing back in a web browser on a Macbook!

Moderator

several more posts deleted

This thread was not created for members to badger the experts: if you continue to do so, you will lose your posting privileges

Amir,

A while ago, you were going to check with the xbox team to see whether the new Elite sku will be using the quiet DVD drives only. Were you able to get any info on that? I'd certainly trade mine in for an elite if that's the case.

Amir, Ben, or other codec experts, there is a recent thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=834539) implying xbox360 has no CPU power to decode H.264 at higher than 10 Mbps, though it is easy to dismiss such a claim since Xbox 360 with HD DVD addon is fully functional HD DVD player and can certainly decode H.264 at well above 10 Mbps.

This does lead a question, does decoding same HD materials at higher bitrate require more CPU power ? With higher bitrate, there is less compression, to me, it means less CPU demanding (assuming similar final PQ), if correct, does it also mean less CPU power for decoding ?

Amir,

A while ago, you were going to check with the xbox team to see whether the new Elite sku will be using the quiet DVD drives only. Were you able to get any info on that? I'd certainly trade mine in for an elite if that's the case.
Sorry, I did but forgot to post it here :). No, there are no "quiet" drives in the new SkU. The drives used there are the same as what is used in the current systems.

Quick note on my phone...

Am on plane going to atlanta for our avs forum meet. Been busy with NAB conference all day and night. Will try to answer more questions when I land.

Thanks for your patience.

Quick note on my phone...

Am on plane going to atlanta for our avs forum meet. Been busy with NAB conference all day and night. Will try to answer more questions when I land.

Thanks for your patience.

Hi Amir,

When can we watch Comcast HD broadcast in VC-1? ;)

Yes, exactly! We'll be providing implementations of VC-1 for HD DVD and BD available for license in a wide variety of products at a wide variety of price points.

PEP was always an extremely high end tool, and it will remain so as CineVision PSE. But most consumers don't need a 16-way blade system with segment reencoding :). We want to help deliver our great VC-1 implementation to every market VC-1 can be used in.


It is. FWIW, I encoded all the Fox and Universal content being used for all the Silverlight demos here at NAB. We've got 720p24 VC-1 playing back in a web browser on a Macbook!
Ben Will VC-1 ever be implemented to Window Media Center?
And would I be able to get an update or upgrade for my current 2005 edition?
I hate the hoging codec being used now.
Thanks!

Amir,

I may have misunderstood you earlier when you discussed it, but I thought Universal was doing away with combo premium pricing? If so, when was that going to take effect? Smokin Aces stung a little at $30.

Top field would go to the left eye, bottom field to the right. This would work on current players, but with a special display technology.

Benwaggoner,

I understand there is complexity (spec approvals, manufacturer and studio complications) with amending the BD spec to support "3-D" playback in an official capacity. However, since the 2nd video stream could be full-resolution 1080p, it would seem that an easy way to obtain full-quality 3-D encoding could be to simply use it for the second video stream so that the disc now contains both left/right eye images in uncompromised 1080p24 compression.

Naturally any BD player that lacked any "3-D" playback firmware/hardware could just play the standard video stream normally... or treat the 2nd video stream in "PIP" fashion like any other video stream.

All you'd need at that point to get full 3-D playback would be one of two things:

1. A BD player that could provide dual-video output (via dual HDMI) for each video stream simultaneously (for use with dual-projection/polarlized glasses).

2. a BD player that would "matrix" the two 1080p24 streams together into a single 1080p48 stream... alternating each progressive-frame in left/right/left/right form for a single projector synchronized to LCD shudder glasses.

It would seem that both of these routines would be technically easy to impliment from a BD playback side (leaving shutter glasses or dual-projectors out of the argument... you'd need those anyway).

There is are important advantages with this method over the traditional "interlacing" approach we have on DVD in 60i:

1. The 3-D encoded Blu-ray would play normally on any BD player for any 2-D viewer. You can't do that with 3-D encoded software using the "interlaced" method bcs it's not watchable without the 3-d shudder glasses. (and also complicated deinterlacing algorithms).

2. The 3-D image, when fully realized, would be an uncompromised, 1080p24-quality image. This is far superior to an image that is marred with interlacing artifacts or that sufferes from deinterlacing artifacts that are not able to use 3-2 pulldown recognition to restore full-frame fidelity.

Can you let us know what it might take to raise awareness in the industry about this important issue? It would seem something that could be an "optional" component of BD-J... not all players would be required to provide 3-D playback (since they all would play all 3-D Discs in 2-D form it's not a problem for any consumer who doesn't care). But high-end manufactures could easily produce players that provide either dual-HDMI output or a matrixed 1080p48 stream for 3-D equipped viewers. If there's anyone we should write to, please let us know!

dave

Amir, Ben, or other codec experts, there is a recent thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=834539) implying xbox360 has no CPU power to decode H.264 at higher than 10 Mbps, though it is easy to dismiss such a claim since Xbox 360 with HD DVD addon is fully functional HD DVD player and can certainly decode H.264 at well above 10 Mbps.

This does lead a question, does decoding same HD materials at higher bitrate require more CPU power ? With higher bitrate, there is less compression, to me, it means less CPU demanding (assuming similar final PQ), if correct, does it also mean less CPU power for decoding ?
Question seems to have already been answerd in that thread :). I have said the same in other forums.

The AVC decoder handles 30 mbit/sec streams for HD DVD and at the same time, handles PiP. Not sure why the Xbox team used the 10/15 number. Regardless, it is not correct.

Higher bit rate does use more CPU. When you increase compression ratio, you truncate some of the frequency coefficients which removes their computational load for the decoder. This is not a linear and predictable graph though.

It is. FWIW, I encoded all the Fox and Universal content being used for all the Silverlight demos here at NAB. We've got 720p24 VC-1 playing back in a web browser on a Macbook!

Ben, thanks for the reply, I can't wait for consumer tools. Just wondering can you talk about the demo? I would be interested in what video clips you encoded, and why you choose those particular clips, or anything else you find interesting.

Thanks.

Adam

dear amir,

as others have now expressed their desire for the audio fix too, I would really ask you to please get back to MS and tell them that their customers actually want the audio-update SOON and don't care about other issues for now. if the update is really ready to go, I really don't see the necessity of holding it back until the playback issues have been dealt with.

regards,

stefan
We won't hold the release back forever. And believe me, given the fact that half the team works for me, when I tell them how urgent it is to get the audio fix out, they "get it." They are working very hard to get the release out and with high quality. I know this doesn't mean much to you all waiting for the fix, there is only so much I can push a team which is working around the clock.

So it's after the dash update now?

Amir,

The current dvd-drive in the XBOX 360 is much too loud for a home theater environment, and frankly I think it is too loud for even a second system in the house. I measured the output at 42 dB with just the fans alone and over 50 dB with a DVD in the drive itself. Are there no plans to fix this with the new Elite? If not, this is a huge missed opportunity in my opinion. Comments or thoughts?

Thanks,

Amir,

The current dvd-drive in the XBOX 360 is much too loud for a home theater environment, and frankly I think it is too loud for even a second system in the house. I measured the output at 42 dB with just the fans alone and over 50 dB with a DVD in the drive itself. Are there no plans to fix this with the new Elite? If not, this is a huge missed opportunity in my opinion. Comments or thoughts?

Thanks,


Same thing here. Playing games at night, it's loud. Simple as that. However, the noise during movie playback via marketplace content is fine by me but I have not tried DVD playback for SD movies in the main drive. The make or break on the Elite, for me, would have been a quieter drive. :(

Sorry, I did but forgot to post it here :). No, there are no "quiet" drives in the new SkU. The drives used there are the same as what is used in the current systems.

To be a little more clear (and add some closure to this topic), from what I understand, newer 360s are using the BENQ drive which are said to be quieter than the samsung and hitachi drives used previously. If the Elite is using the BENQ, then it is quieter right?

Question seems to have already been answerd in that thread :). I have said the same in other forums.

The AVC decoder handles 30 mbit/sec streams for HD DVD and at the same time, handles PiP. Not sure why the Xbox team used the 10/15 number. Regardless, it is not correct.

Higher bit rate does use more CPU. When you increase compression ratio, you truncate some of the frequency coefficients which removes their computational load for the decoder. This is not a linear and predictable graph though.


Could it be that AVIVO tech is only used for HD DVD playback and for general AVC content, it's limited to Xenon only?

Or is AVIVO used anytime AVC decoding is called upon by any part of the console?

It is. FWIW, I encoded all the Fox and Universal content being used for all the Silverlight demos here at NAB. We've got 720p24 VC-1 playing back in a web browser on a Macbook!
Out of interest's sake, what bitrates? Shouldn't most "reasonable"-bitrate 720p24 VC-1 be relatively easy to play back on a 2.0 GHz Core 2 Duo MacBook? Or does the web browser make it much more complicated? Would 20 Mbps 1080p be too much? BTW, what OS? ;)

P.S. Maybe you should tell Cyberlink of your results. :) They refuse to allow playback of any HD DVD with PowerDVD 7 on any machine without a next gen videocard. (As you know, the MacBook uses integrated GMA 950.)

...
Higher bit rate does use more CPU. When you increase compression ratio, you truncate some of the frequency coefficients which removes their computational load for the decoder. This is not a linear and predictable graph though.
Thanks, Amir. So higher bit rate, even with decreased compression, does require more CPU, hopefully it is compensated by increased (even a little bit) PQ. However, if one aims for similar PQ (truncating same frequency coefficients), would CPU requirement be similar ?

Amongst the (many) discussions in the "Battle" thread, the issue of the potential for decoding a lossless audio stream to render a non-lossless result was brought up. This was in the context of why PCM might be preferable to lossless codecs.

The contention was that given a particular encoding path/optimization on the front end, the decoder on the back end might find itself out of MIPS under some set of circumstances, and therefore you were in danger of not really getting identical bits back.
Dolby TrueHD certification requires bit exact decoding of the content. Here is the exact wording from Dolby FAQ on TrueHD:

"The Dolby TrueHD decoder circuit actually verifies the output is lossless as it is decoding."

My thoughts are:
- the behavior of the encode/decode is deterministic for all of the sample formats/data rates within the spec

- conformance tests exist to test pathological cases such that these extremes are already exercised prior to certification/logo'ing, etc...[/quote]
Yes, even in the case of lossy codecs, there are certification tests and PSNR levels to meet. In case of lossless, you have to be bit exact or you don't get to ship the technology.

- multi-core SoC designs that contain many functional blocks (i.e. audio decode, video decode, video plane scaling, CPU core, etc...) are built/tested such that individual blocks are not allowed to step on each other's toes (i.e.- max data rate video decode doesn't saturate the memory pipeline such that you can't get samples in/out of the audio decoder)
Indeed. There are always dedicated audio DSPs/CPUs that are not impacted by other work loads. But if there is interference, it is job of the system designer to make sure everything works. Otherwise you will have issues with displaying the logo (and in some cases, licensing the technology at all).

Furthermore, I've NEVER heard of CE equipment being widely criticised for it's codecs (be they lossy or otherwise) not outputting the correct bitstream due to lack decoder horsepower.
Indeed.

Finally, I'd suspect that the error condition in such a case would be a an audible glitch in the output (not some graceful degradation), such that if this were an issue, it would be pretty darn noticeable.
That is what I would expect. And the exact same thing happens to PCM audio .

To be a little more clear (and add some closure to this topic), from what I understand, newer 360s are using the BENQ drive which are said to be quieter than the samsung and hitachi drives used previously. If the Elite is using the BENQ, then it is quieter right?
All I know is that Elite uses the same suppliers as the general console. So if this means BenQ and a quieter drive, then OK :).

Amir,

The current dvd-drive in the XBOX 360 is much too loud for a home theater environment, and frankly I think it is too loud for even a second system in the house. I measured the output at 42 dB with just the fans alone and over 50 dB with a DVD in the drive itself. Are there no plans to fix this with the new Elite? If not, this is a huge missed opportunity in my opinion. Comments or thoughts?

Thanks,
It is really beyond the scope of my responsibility to comment on these points. But yes, having quieter machine is always a good thing :).

So it's after the dash update now?
No, we haven't said it is before or after. I have said (and just repeated a few pages back :)) that we are on track for meeting our earlier promise of "early to mid spring." I really don't know how to be more specific than this.

We won't hold the release back forever. And believe me, given the fact that half the team works for me, when I tell them how urgent it is to get the audio fix out, they "get it." They are working very hard to get the release out and with high quality. I know this doesn't mean much to you all waiting for the fix, there is only so much I can push a team which is working around the clock.
Well then, I must say I am happy to know that it;s planed to come out, and as you stated in the later post, that you plan it to be released this spring. For me, it means a lot because it means that it's been worked on, and it's still being worked on. Personally, I under more then enough of the technical stuff to know that it's a big pain to fix something like this properly and keep everything else working. Of course, I would like it sooner then later, but I would much rather have it done right, and with the quality it deserves then sooner. If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right.
Thanks for the post! I appreciate that you are willing to talk to the community about this in your spare time.

Amir,

Thanks for your continued support of the community here. I see you answering questions on Friday and Saturday nights and I want to tell you to go home (unless you're there) and be with your family!!!

Anyway, my question is: Since the upcoming HD-DVD add-on update is coming separately from the Dashboard update, does that mean that future updates won't be tied to the fall/spring schedule and can instead be released when issues are found and resolved, in a more timely manner? People shouldn't have to wait 6+ months to get fixes for compatibility issues with discs, etc.

Thanks again!

-Brian

Amir,

Thanks for your continued support of the community here. I see you answering questions on Friday and Saturday nights and I want to tell you to go home (unless you're there) and be with your family!!!
Thanks! Yes, I am usually home. It is the curse of wireless laptop sitting next to you, with email notifaction from AVS on subscribed threads!

Anyway, my question is: Since the upcoming HD-DVD add-on update is coming separately from the Dashboard update, does that mean that future updates won't be tied to the fall/spring schedule and can instead be released when issues are found and resolved, in a more timely manner? People shouldn't have to wait 6+ months to get fixes for compatibility issues with discs, etc.

Thanks again!

-Brian
Yes, we will stay seperate from the dashboard release.

Can anyone properly explain DTS-HD codecs please??

I thought it was nailed, but I'm confused again :confused: My understanding was that you start with what is now called core which is good old DTS at up to 1.5mbps, 24 bit and 48kHz. If you use DTS-HD HR, you add HR extension packets to the core. If you use MA you add MA extension packets to the core up to insane bitrates. You cannot decode HD from MA...

However, on Fox discs marked as DTS-HD MA, PowerDVD, which only claims DTS-HD support not MA (like Panasonic are claiming with v2.0 firmware) appears to be decoding a VBR DTS-HD stream that hits some pretty big highs >5mbps, that must be taking it into lossless territory.

So, is PowerDVD actually decoding DTS-HD MA? Is DTS-HD HR a fixed bitrate codec like all other lossy codecs? Why did they have to make it so complicated?

Even the studios don't understand the differences it seems as BV in Europe have labelled their non-English DTS 1.5 mbps language tracks as DTS-HD MA... Or is it really DTS-HD MA and PowerDVD is only decoding the core? In which case have Fox got it wrong and have they actually only used DTS-HD HR which is why PowerDVD decodes it???

:confused: :confused: :confused:

Yes, we will stay seperate from the dashboard release.
This raises a side question from me, any particular reason? I can think on only think of a few myself, and they make logical sense as well.
One being that they software is held separately, and combining the two could cause problems with the OS on systems without the HD-DVD add on.
The other one being that MS just wants to keep the separate and prevent unneeded downloading.

Amirm,

Has there been any word on the recent Universal combo disc problems? I can't imagine this is all a manufacturing defect - three high-profile releases within a month (Children of Men, The Good Shepard, and now Smokin Aces), all suffering such a big problem over such a large number of discs is a bit much to stomach.

If I had to make a wager on the cause, I'd say Universal is authoring / producing these with some new method that HD-DVD player firmwares aren't yet ready to deal with.

I imagine both Microsoft and Universal are taking this issue very seriously (I would certainly hope!), so can you make some kind of statement on the current status, and when/how customers can expect to have this resolved?

Ben, thanks for the reply, I can't wait for consumer tools. Just wondering can you talk about the demo? I would be interested in what video clips you encoded, and why you choose those particular clips, or anything else you find interesting.

This is the only clip I see on the web site at this point. I think more may be posted later. I didn't pick the clips or have that big a role in the design or anything.

http://download.microsoft.com/download/2/c/4/2c433161-f56c-4bab-bbc5-b8c6f240afcc/Silverlight%20WEB%20720p%202M-128%20vbr.wmv

Only 2 Mbps for 720p24!

Out of interest's sake, what bitrates? Shouldn't most "reasonable"-bitrate 720p24 VC-1 be relatively easy to play back on a 2.0 GHz Core 2 Duo MacBook? Or does the web browser make it much more complicated? Would 20 Mbps 1080p be too much? BTW, what OS? ;)

Bear in mind this is a web browser plugin, so we're doing it all in software - no GPU acceleration, etcetera. Doing 1280x720 24p in a browser window on a laptop is a big advancement over what was in previous technologies.

Ben Will VC-1 ever be implemented to Window Media Center?
And would I be able to get an update or upgrade for my current 2005 edition?
I hate the hoging codec being used now.
Thanks!
VC-1 has been in Windows Media Center all along. VC-1 is the SMPTE designation for the Windows Media Video 9 technology we've been using for years.

Microsoft insiders,
Xbox Live Marketplace needs some graphical/audio powerhouse tech demos available for download.

Wouldn't it be great to just load up a fun little demo like the PS3 "rubber ducks" or that one with the millions of leaves? Or just a super-detailed house to walk through.

Oooh! Ooh! Or an ultra-realistic human head model that you can animate yourself. Set up a string of mouth animations and then record your own voice with the headset to sync up with the talking head? Oh yeah!
Or just some freaking beautiful village to just walk around and throw rocks into the lake.

Tech demos. Insiders, make it happen.

Just kidding, I'm just a 360 customer laying out his dreams...(seriously, make it happen)

...or anything else you find interesting.

Oh, forgot to mention the Silverlight implementation of the U-Control experience from a section Tokyo Drift, including PiP and the insurance meter at the same time, with clips encode for streaming over a 5 Mbps connection :). In HD!

I just make the files, so it was pretty amazing to see what they did with them!

We won't hold the release back forever. And believe me, given the fact that half the team works for me, when I tell them how urgent it is to get the audio fix out, they "get it." They are working very hard to get the release out and with high quality. I know this doesn't mean much to you all waiting for the fix, there is only so much I can push a team which is working around the clock.

dear amir,

thank you for your answer. of course, I didn' want to imply that you or your people were not working. and I think we all appreciate all this hard work. however, if the audio-update as such is finished - why don't get it out now? that is the question that many folks in this forum don't understand. you could always have a secondary update regarding the playback issues lateron.

and this is also causing the confusion or irritation - if the audio update is finished and ready to go: then there is no reason to hold it back, especially if there is such public demand for the update. BUT - the update is not coming since months. therefore, many people start wondering: have they really finished the audio-update or are they just trying to keep aus quiet until they have figured out on how to solve this problem... see my point?

This raises a side question from me, any particular reason? I can think on only think of a few myself, and they make logical sense as well.
One being that they software is held separately, and combining the two could cause problems with the OS on systems without the HD-DVD add on.
The other one being that MS just wants to keep the separate and prevent unneeded downloading.
The main reason is that we want to have agile development. If we tie things together, then we constantly need to coordinate the work with each other, and be at the mercy of when they want to release/announce new features, etc. Same reason we update Windows components after the major release independently.

There are other reasons but the above is one of the main ones.

dear amir,

thank you for your answer. of course, I didn' want to imply that you or your people were not working. and I think we all appreciate all this hard work. however, if the audio-update as such is finished - why don't get it out now? that is the question that many folks in this forum don't understand. you could always have a secondary update regarding the playback issues lateron.

and this is also causing the confusion or irritation - if the audio update is finished and ready to go: then there is no reason to hold it back, especially if there is such public demand for the update. BUT - the update is not coming since months. therefore, many people start wondering: have they really finished the audio-update or are they just trying to keep aus quiet until they have figured out on how to solve this problem... see my point?
The reason is that we have to do what is called "regression testing." In other words, even if we just change the audio option, we would have to retest the entire release because changing the decoder behavior, might have unexpected effects elsewhere, breaking something else. I also mentioned this as “release tax” – i.e. extra work you do even if you fix nothing. For large scale products, the release tax and how you manage it is super important as it uses up a lot of resources, most of them time for nothing.

So instead of doing all of that testing twice, once for audio and once for all the other things we fixed, we combined them together to gain efficiency and time to release for both set of bug fixes/functionality improvements. Yes, this does mean that it delayed the audio release but we think it is a fair compromise for all of our customers because many people want the other fixes as much as audio (indeed, if you go beyond the AVC crowd, the other fixes are deemed more important).

We also have serious responsibility to content owners to keep Xbox as compatible as we possibly we can with their content (including working around any authoring bugs :p). If we don't do this, the content might dry up at the source and that would not be a good thing. Hence the other reason we are keen to get out title compatibility fixes.

Amirn, very good explanation. Thank you for that small, but very appreciated incite. I didn't even think of that being an issue.

Oh, forgot to mention the Silverlight implementation of the U-Control experience from a section Tokyo Drift, including PiP and the insurance meter at the same time, with clips encode for streaming over a 5 Mbps connection :). In HD!

I just make the files, so it was pretty amazing to see what they did with them!

Wow, the streaming clip is impressive. Especially when you consider that its HD full screen, (my monitors is 1280x1024). The part that is most amazing is that it steams. I can't wait till Soapbox, Youtube, myspace start using this technology.

A follow up questions, so the U-Control is client based in the web broweser? I'm being streamed 2 video files and the plug-in combines the two?

Adam

Dolby TrueHD certification requires bit exact decoding of the content. Here is the exact wording from Dolby FAQ on TrueHD:

"The Dolby TrueHD decoder circuit actually verifies the output is lossless as it is decoding."



- conformance tests exist to test pathological cases such that these extremes are already exercised prior to certification/logo'ing, etc...
Yes, even in the case of lossy codecs, there are certification tests and PSNR levels to meet. In case of lossless, you have to be bit exact or you don't get to ship the technology.


Indeed. There are always dedicated audio DSPs/CPUs that are not impacted by other work loads. But if there is interference, it is job of the system designer to make sure everything works. Otherwise you will have issues with displaying the logo (and in some cases, licensing the technology at all).


Indeed.


That is what I would expect. And the exact same thing happens to PCM audio .

Thank you Amir.

Keith, would you concur?

Thank you Amir. Keith, would you concur?Yes, Amir is 100% correct on what's needed to pass conformance testing. It's really pretty straightforward. At the SoC level, it is our responsibility to ensure it still works 100% correctly no matter what else our chip is doing. For example, we made the audio DSP caches large enough to minimize DRAM memory bandwidth so that video processing isn't affected.

Yes, Amir is 100% correct on what's needed to pass conformance testing. It's really pretty straightforward. At the SoC level, it is our responsibility to ensure it still works 100% correctly no matter what else our chip is doing. For example, we made the audio DSP caches large enough to minimize DRAM memory bandwidth so that video processing isn't affected.

Thank you, gentlemen.

I am kind of confused about the new BD+ comming out. I have started getting a library of blu-ray movies and was planning on buying the Sony BDP-S300 blu-ray player this june. I read somewhere that a bd+ disc can only play in one player? If this is the case, I was wondering if my player should die or i upgrade my player in a year or two does that mean i have to buy the same blu-ray disc all over again just so i can watch it in a new player?

Amir,
I have been reading tons of threads about the Elite (which I have ordered), and havent found any answer or question about this. Forgive me if it has been asked.

It has been said that its a benefit to keep the video signal 100% digital and HDMI allows for this. Can you please comment if MS has done any test to see if there is ANY visual difference in the 360 staying digital with HDMI vs going through a video DAC in the current 360 using component?

Maybe you can answer my question with the assumption that the display would be digital and the same in both cases.

benwaggoner,

How does silverlight compare to this technology (http://movenetworks.com/demo.html)?

Notice how fast it starts and move the time line around. They also claim 720p capability.

This is the only clip I see on the web site at this point. I think more may be posted later. I didn't pick the clips or have that big a role in the design or anything.

http://download.microsoft.com/download/2/c/4/2c433161-f56c-4bab-bbc5-b8c6f240afcc/Silverlight%20WEB%20720p%202M-128%20vbr.wmv

Only 2 Mbps for 720p24!

What's the situation with MACINTOSH compatibility?

I downloaded all the avaialble program files / updates but . . . .

All I get is audio in a QT window from Flip 4 Mac.

All this stuff sounds great . . . Mac compatible would be great too.


-30-

To the MS guys:

When do you forecast we will be at a point where mainstream integrated chipset/motherboard audio/video processing can satisfactorily play 1920 x 1080 VC1/AVC/MPEG-2 with 5.1 DD+/DTS/THD/PCM?

To me, a motherboard with build-in chipest audio/video processing and HDMI output seems like a no-brainer, and I keep hearing talk about it, but I'm not seeing much product-wise.

To Amir or any other Microsoft/HD DVD people..

Any word AT ALL on the 360 HD DVD incompatibilities with Children of Men [HD DVD]? Is there a way to tell if my 360/HD DVD add-on will be affected? Like a manuf date range, etc? And will this be fixed in the upcoming update?

It is really beyond the scope of my responsibility to comment on these points. But yes, having quieter machine is always a good thing :).


Thanks Amir. I will be reviewing the Elite for Ultimate AV, so I will be able to get some first hand knowledge with it.

Wow, the streaming clip is impressive. Especially when you consider that its HD full screen, (my monitors is 1280x1024). The part that is most amazing is that it steams. I can't wait till Soapbox, Youtube, myspace start using this technology.
Note that clip was quite amenable to compression - not everything looks that good at that low rate. Still 4 Mbps 720p streaming is taking pretty much everything we throw at it now.

A follow up questions, so the U-Control is client based in the web broweser? I'm being streamed 2 video files and the plug-in combines the two?
Correct. The Silverlight plugin handles the compositing for you. With alpha channels, etcetera.

The basic design is somewhat similar to HDi, in fact, with XML-based market, JScript to control elements, compositing with transparency, etcetera.

What's the situation with MACINTOSH compatibility?

I downloaded all the avaialble program files / updates but . . . .

All I get is audio in a QT window from Flip 4 Mac.

All this stuff sounds great . . . Mac compatible would be great too.

The about-to-be-released version of Flip4Mac handles this file fine. Also, Silverlight itself is 100% cross-platform, and that file plays perfectly in Safari on a MacBook right in front of me.