Industry Insiders Q&A MASTER THREAD [separate thread for Xbox/Add On & PS3] [Text View] - Page 18

yitzchakis1

05-02-07, 10:44 AM

Amir any insight into this from a post I made a few days ago?....I know MS knows about it and is working to fix it....I'd be be interested in your insight as well please as its fasinating to me how HDMI works...well anything electronic is fasinating to me lol
---------------------------
Amir or any insider,

I am also having issues with my new Elite….please reference the xbox hardware, Elite issue in the xbox forums, sorry it would not let me link from here.

Actually there are many different topics being posted in that forum on this problem. Sometimes when I watch a video (not always) on the HDD or HD-DVD add-on or DVD the screen goes bright purple with the imagine in the background, it also does the same sometimes as green. When you go back to the dashboard the weird color stays with me as the dashboard is now washed out in green.

The quick way to resolve it is to change my Hitachi 55VF820 720 LCD HDTV input to say the one Comcast is on, as soon as I switch back to the input my Elite is hooked up too, its back to normal with no issues until I watch a video again. So far it has not does this to me in gears and frankly gears looks stunning on my HDTV going though HDMI.

BTW....I used the xbox hdmi cable it came with and then I switched to my new Monster Ultra hdmi cable and nothing changed, so in this instance its not the cable...its the handshake I think

Any help and advise is greatly appreciated….thanks again for all you do for the community.

Isaac

amirm

05-02-07, 12:12 PM

yitzchakis1

05-02-07, 12:18 PM

amirm

05-02-07, 12:27 PM

wow you guys continue to impress me :) Granted you just posted this publically on a forum, is it ok if I post what you said on the xbox forums?
No problem. You can do that.

I should say that the Xbox team deserves a lot of credit here. First, they are very responsive to my questions to them from AVS. They hold you all to high regards :). And second, to get a fix into a release this late is unheard of. They really worked around the clock to get this done once we got the data from the field.

yitzchakis1

05-02-07, 12:52 PM

No problem. You can do that.

I should say that the Xbox team deserves a lot of credit here. First, they are very responsive to my questions to them from AVS. They hold you all to high regards :). And second, to get a fix into a release this late is unheard of. They really worked around the clock to get this done once we got the data from the field.

Yes its quite impressive....we hold them in high regard as well....I've never felt so connected to a company......its because they really care about the community and this just proves it! Got the Elite on Sunday....its Tuesday issue resolved and in between that time I was contacted by one of the guys on the team who fixed it asking my HDTV details to make sure they understood the issue....what company does that?

Good job indie and crew :)

mikecoscia

05-02-07, 04:27 PM

Oh, I didn't miss your question. I already forwarded it to the team when I first saw it :).

Currently, we know of a small number of TVs which are non-compliant with HDMI spec. They work-around you mention very much matches what we think the problem is (switching inputs forces the TV to do what is should do all the time but it is not). Fortunately, we had time to squeeze in a work-around for this in the spring update to come out shortly. So my suggestion is to wait a few days until this update comes out.

Just found this thread, thanks for all the info! I have a quick question however. The issue with my Sharp Aquos 37D90U is not as severe as others my screen simply flashes green before video playback and pink after. During playback everything is normal as is when I go back to the dashboard. Will the work around also fix this situation?

Oh another glitch I found. I am running my Elite through a Denon 2307CI reciever. If the reciever is already powered on, the Elite will not boot up unless its input on the reciever is selected. All that happens is the middle power light on the console lights green and all the lights on the controller flash like it can't find the console. As soon as I select the right input on the reciever, the 360 boots up. The 360 is almost acting like its AV cables have been pulled out. Once the 360 is on however I can switch to an input and switch back with no problems. I don't have this issue with any other HDMI components hooked up to the reciever.

That being said let me thank the Xbox team for such quick service and addressing the problems so quickly!

ryanmcv

05-02-07, 04:49 PM

Papercuts

05-02-07, 05:18 PM

Wow, I'm excited that Xbox has taken to these Elite issues so fast and already with a fix.

I was wander if anyone could shed some light on the Issue I was having. Seems to be in the same vain as other on here have described but a little different.

I have a Samsung lnt4661F 1080p LCD tv set and I have my Elite set up through HDMI. The Dashboard is fine, but like others when I start a video that is downloaded to the HDD a quick green flash appears as it loads then as it ends it will flash pink. The Flashes are very quick almost like a blink. But, also during game play and even during HD DVDs I get a green flash too or sometimes a black flash. I just wanted to put my situation out on the board so I may get some more info about what this maybe caused by and if the update will address this

bobgpsr

05-02-07, 05:20 PM

Question to the moderators and MSFT insiders. Since MSFT supports the Xbox.com forum with its people and answers all types of XBOX questions there, why does the AVS HDTV Software Media Discussion's Insiders Thread have to be used for XBOX 360 support?

http://forums.xbox.com/295/ShowForum.aspx

It seems that things here are getting out of hand. Should not Xbox users be directed to Xbox.com?

WERA689

05-02-07, 05:46 PM

It seems that things here are getting out of hand. Should not Xbox users be directed to Xbox.com?[/QUOTE]

I am of the opinion that the xbox forums are populated with a much "younger" group of users. With the exception of the few screaming, whining complainers here, this is a much more adult, enthusiast-oriented forum. As such, it draws a more 'enlightened' group of users who ask much more intelligent and thought out questions than those seen on xbox forums. JMHO.

Nox

05-02-07, 06:03 PM

I'm in agreement with Xbox post being in another thread/forum if it's not an insider question.

Sound, video, and other playback problems with the 360 should be taken up with MS tech support or posted in the proper area of AVS.

amirm

05-02-07, 06:35 PM

I am of the opinion that the xbox forums are populated with a much "younger" group of users. With the exception of the few screaming, whining complainers here, this is a much more adult, enthusiast-oriented forum. As such, it draws a more 'enlightened' group of users who ask much more intelligent and thought out questions than those seen on xbox forums. JMHO.
Indeed. Also, I would not be able to participate in those forums as I am not a gamer and would not be in a position to answer broader questions. And there are no xbox people who want to discuss the ins and outs of HDMI, etc. with folks. So you are stuck with me here, for good or bad :).

I realize this is an issue for people not interested in Xbox. But to the extent the questions are A/V related, they are no different than people asking A/V questions regarding Toshiba, Sony, etc. Also, the volume of questions is low in general. We have less than a dozen posts a day here total. So it should be easy to skip.

Imeldhil

05-02-07, 06:55 PM

amirm thanks so much for the tips. Yeah I guess they were 2 different updates (it seem to much for me in just one) and it's great to know both are coming in some days. My main question would be, in the dashboard fix, the VGA colour problem, it solves right? but is it for both the console and the HD DVD?? I mean, the improvment would be seen inn both right?

Also, perhaps you can help me with something that I aske dbefore, abdout a Toshiba XE1 connected via analog multichannel getting a ppor sound of the True HD tracks, is that normal?? I mean, shoudl it sound lower? or coudl it be a defect on the player or the discs??

Thanks anyway if you can't help on that one and thanks for coming back around!

BuGsArEtAsTy

05-02-07, 06:58 PM

TrueHD on the Batman Begins HD DVD is reportedly encoded slightly off-sync. (http://forums.xbox.com/5/8181232/ShowPost.aspx#8181232)

If true, is this TrueHD issue only with this disc, or are TrueHD tracks on other HD DVDs also affected?

EDIT:

This has been answered by the same poster. Apparently he was referring specifically to Batman Begins, and not Warner TrueHD tracks in general.

Joe Bloggs

05-02-07, 10:11 PM

What is on the source (HD DVD/BD) does not support such large color space or resolution. So all flavors of HDMI look the same wrt to playing the video itself.

The extra capacity of HDMI 1.3 might allow for slight improvement in quality of graphics overlayed on top of video or allow a bit more accurate color space conversion. All in all, 1.3 is there more as a tool to sell things than to make things look better :).

Also keep in mind that even if one did pass all of those colors to the display over 1.3, it is very unlikely that you would see them output that way as displays have even worse resolution than what we have on the disc, than something better. They have a long way to go to become transparent to the signal on older generation of HDMI before we have aspirations of something better.According the product description of the Panasonic TH-50PX600B - 50" on Amazon UK (not that I'd be able to afford it ;)) it says "An outstanding 29 billion colours can be displayed on the PX600 models, offering V-Real Gamma Control. A maximum 11.5 bit video processing makes it possible to reproduce images with 3,072 equivalent steps of gradation". Now maybe that's marketing talk but I'd think they'd get in trouble if they couldn't actually display 1 billion colours (yet HD-DVD discs are 8 bit (millions of colours)) so they seem to be saying this TV COULD display more colours than are on the HD-DVD disc.

I think those articles that say "HDMI 1.3" allows billions of colours is more than a bit misleading then if that's not the case (for video). Even wikipedia says "Optionally supports 30-bit, 36-bit, and 48-bit xvYCC with Deep Color or over one billion colors, up from 24-bit sRGB or YCbCr in previous versions.".

PS: For colour graduations (such as during the end titles of King Kong) it shouldn't really take any more bitrate (for >8 bit colour) as the background is a static image (with moving titles).

PPS: Don't suppose there's any news on that title I asked about in my first post?

QUOTE amirm: "Also interesting is to think about releasing these episodes on red laser DVDs formatted as HD DVD. That way, you can us VC-1 and probably get up to 3X the capacity on the same disc with interactivity to boot!"

I would prefer if they were released on HD-DVD because:
* Dual layer HD-DVD are about 3 times the capacity of dual layer standard def DVDs so you could get more on at higher quality.
[I was going to complain about CSS and region coding if they were on SD-DVD but as you say, if they were formatted as HD-DVD they wouldn't have CSS and should therefore be region free - but I'd still prefer if they were on HD-DVD].

amirm

05-02-07, 11:05 PM

According the product description of the Panasonic TH-50PX600B - 50" on Amazon UK (not that I'd be able to afford it ;)) it says "An outstanding 29 billion colours can be displayed on the PX600 models, offering V-Real Gamma Control. A maximum 11.5 bit video processing makes it possible to reproduce images with 3,072 equivalent steps of gradation". Now maybe that's marketing talk but I'd think they'd get in trouble if they couldn't actually display 1 billion colours (yet HD-DVD discs are 8 bit (millions of colours)) so they seem to be saying this TV COULD display more colours than are on the HD-DVD disc.
To borrow a term from your side of the pond, that is "total bollocks" :). What they are talking about is the resolution of the internal signal processing and D/A conversion. It has nothing to do with the accuracy or the ability of the Plasma panel to actually display such graduations. By way of analogy, they could claim that this TV handles 1920x1080 resolution because it accepts that resolution signal on its input as 1080i. But obviously it cannot display it as the panel is 768p.

Certainly low level signals will not be reproduced as the black level is well above zero and the gray scale at low levels is rarely accurate on a Plasma.

So no, they cannot duplicate the signal that is on HD DVD. Most definitely lacking in resolution but also fine gradations and accuracy.

I think those articles that say "HDMI 1.3" allows billions of colours is more than a bit misleading then if that's not the case (for video). Even wikipedia says "Optionally supports 30-bit, 36-bit, and 48-bit xvYCC with Deep Color or over one billion colors, up from 24-bit sRGB or YCbCr in previous versions."
Yet it is absolutely the norm to advertize such a thing.

ryanmcv

05-03-07, 12:05 AM

Amir,

Just to add to my above post about the ghosting issues I'm having with the Elite:

I have a friend who has the 40" model of that same TV and he is also having this ghosting issue with the HDMI output on his Elite. There is also a thread going on over at the Xbox.com forums where another user is having the same problem on a newer-model Samsung (link (http://forums.xbox.com/12079784/ShowPost.aspx)). And there are more postings by Samsung-owners on other sites that are reporting this same issue.

There definitely seems to be an issue with the Xbox 360 Elite and certain Samsung HDTVs. I have reverted back to component cables for now, as I simply cannot achieve a good gaming experience through the HDMI port due to the ghosting issues that I described in my above post.

amirm

05-03-07, 12:42 AM

mikecoscia

05-03-07, 06:41 AM

Amir,

Did you catch my question at the top of this page (143)? I know you’re busy but I was curious, esp about the receiver and wondering if it is a handshake issue with the 360?

Thanks again for the input you have been giving this board.

AES256

05-03-07, 08:28 AM

Amir,

as you seem to sometimes pass requests on to HD DVD companies, could you kindly ask Warner to release Amadeus (which they're apparently planning to do in Feb '08 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=842752)) with a TrueHD track?
It would seem the obvious thing for a studio to do with such a title, but your voice seems to carry some weight in the industry :D

snoop01

05-03-07, 11:38 AM

Amir or any Insider,

I am having an issue when connecting via HDMI to my Dell plasma model W5001C. When connecting via HDMI i get a black screen and no video at all. I have connected with a known good HDMI cable and a known good HDMI port, this cable and port also work with my Cable box with no issues, on the TV but no picture. However, when i connect the xbox elite via HDMI to my Vizio LCD I get video with no issues.

Has anyone else seen this behavior on a Dell TV or other manufacturer's TV? Would the fix for the purple issue be the same fix for the no video issue? Thanks for the info.

A.VOID

05-03-07, 11:51 AM

Dahlsim

05-03-07, 12:04 PM

Indeed. Also, I would not be able to participate in those forums as I am not a gamer and would not be in a position to answer broader questions. And there are no xbox people who want to discuss the ins and outs of HDMI, etc. with folks. So you are stuck with me here, for good or bad :).

I realize this is an issue for people not interested in Xbox. But to the extent the questions are A/V related, they are no different than people asking A/V questions regarding Toshiba, Sony, etc. Also, the volume of questions is low in general. We have less than a dozen posts a day here total. So it should be easy to skip.

1 word: Convergence.

Both Sony & MS and others have been saying devices would converge so as they do it's harder to separate the effects of the devices on the coverged functions. In this case after all video game consoles are comprising a huge share of the entire high def optical video market. (Be nice to see a "PS3 guy" around here every now & then)

On the issue of interest from 'Xbox people' Amir , there seems to be a few MS guys that do peruse these forums and occasionally answer question. Apparently MS guy "Ghent" for instance has already posted that the 360 hd dvd update should be expected between the May 7th and 11th (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10443745&&#post10443745).

Perhaps you could get Ghent or such to drop into this thread occasionally?

snoop01

05-03-07, 12:41 PM

I assume you're asking about the Elite, and I saw people with Dell's having a lot of issues. Maybe a Dell firmware thing?

I am having the issues when connecting an xbox 360 elite.

evil

05-03-07, 02:42 PM

paidgeek

05-03-07, 05:36 PM

Paidgeek,

I asked you this a few pages back (post 4122). Can you offer some comment on this?

Sorry for the bump, but you answered every subsequent question

Sorry for the very delayed response.

I understand the interest in having multiple versions on one disc, but there is not a lot of interest in doing this at the studio. I adds significantly to the complexity of preparing the title, in part because of audio splice issues that can arise. We will use this feature on a title this year, but not on "The Patriot". It will go out as the extended version.

eybert

05-03-07, 05:44 PM

[...]
There definitely seems to be an issue with the Xbox 360 Elite and certain Samsung HDTVs. I have reverted back to component cables for now, as I simply cannot achieve a good gaming experience through the HDMI port due to the ghosting issues that I described in my above post.

I haven't tried the Elite yet (as it is not available in Norway), but I have the same ghosting issues when connecting my Denon 2910 DVD player to my Samsung 40M61 using HDMI. Makes me believe it's not a problem with the Elite, but rather with certain Samsung TVs.

paidgeek

05-03-07, 05:44 PM

paidgeek,

As you probably know, Onkyo recently announced that its first HDMI 1.3 receivers with built-in DTS-HD MA and Dolby TrueHD decoding would ship within a few weeks (May), with other models to follow in June. Some retailers (J&R) are/were taking preorders.

Can you confirm whether the current firmware on the Sony PS3 is capable of passing -- rather than decoding -- the full DTS-HD MA and TrueHD bitstreams to these receivers? Originally, the PS3 was unable to do that, but do you know whether that capability was added with one of the firmwares released in the past two months? Or do you expect that is something Sony will support soon after these new A/V receivers hit the market?

If that is something you could confirm with SCEI, members would appreciate it. They've got PS3s and are looking at these new A/V receivers with DTS-HD MA and TrueHD decoding, but they want to be sure they can actually take advantage of it. New products such as these command a premium at initial release, so if the ability to pass full DTS-HD MA and TrueHD bitstreams won't be added for a few months yet, members could wait and consider alternatives from other manufacturers later this summer.

Sorry for the delayed response.

The PS3 does not pass advanced codecs over HDMI except for Dolby THD after decoding to PCM. I don't know if this feature will be added in the future. I fully understand why members are concerned about this, but as far as I am concerned, decoding in the player to LPCM gives us the most flexibility while maintaining sound quality.

paidgeek

05-03-07, 05:49 PM

Dear Paidgeek,

Can I please ask if you have any information regarding when the Playstation 3 will be able to decode DTS Master Lossless Audio, if ever? This is very important to me.

Also, I've seen Spider-man 2 playing off a demo Blu-ray disc at a local Sony Style store. The scene was when Spider-man was squaring off with Dr. Octopus on the train. This particular scene exhibited a pretty noticeable amount of grain throughout the picture.

My question is, is this grain inherent to the master? And if it is, will it make it to the final encode on the Blu-ray release?

Finally, do you have any knowledge if any or all of the Spider-man releases will employ the use of seamless branching to include extra scenes, like the ones in the DVD release of Spider-man 2.1?

Thank you so much for your time :) .

I don't know what Sony Computer is planning with respect to DTH MA HD decoding on the PS3. We have discussed it, but as far as I know if it still under study.

All of the Spiderman titles have significant film grain. We will encode them at a sufficient bit rate to make sure it is preserved.

There are no plans to use branching on any of the Spiderman releases at this time.

joealtus

05-03-07, 05:54 PM

Paidgeek,

Are there any plans to update the PS3 to allow 720p output for 1080 Blu-ray movies?

bfdtv

05-03-07, 06:04 PM

ryanmcv

05-03-07, 06:09 PM

I haven't tried the Elite yet (as it is not available in Norway), but I have the same ghosting issues when connecting my Denon 2910 DVD player to my Samsung 40M61 using HDMI. Makes me believe it's not a problem with the Elite, but rather with certain Samsung TVs.
Hello again. ;)

As I said, I just don't understand why every other device works perfectly, but only the Elite and the DVD player you mentioned have ghosting issues. It must have something to do with the signal that is coming out of the Elite. If my cheap cable box from Comcast and my cheap upconverting DVD player can both produce perfect pictures on my TV through HDMI, then why can't the Elite? Something is wrong.

H9K_

05-03-07, 06:14 PM

Paid:We will use this feature on a title this year

so...what movie might that be? :D

markrubin

05-03-07, 06:32 PM

Greetings

Please remember this thread is for questions only to Insiders: only Insiders are allowed to answer

Check out the rules and the list of Insiders here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9265013&&#post9265013

Thanks

paidgeek

05-03-07, 06:41 PM

Paidgeek,

Are there any plans to update the PS3 to allow 720p output for 1080 Blu-ray movies?

Scaling functions are in the works, but I don't know about this particular combination. Since it is such a common function for an HD ready display to accept 1080 and convert it to the native panel resolution, this would probably be a lower priority.

RobertR1

05-03-07, 06:48 PM

awp

05-03-07, 06:56 PM

Amir,

This may have already been asked, but there's 144 pages in this thread now so...

Will this update for the 360 add-on that's coming fix problems with 3X DVDs (HD DVD content on a standard DVD) created by video editing software? Pinnacle, Magix and Ulead all now support this format with their latest versions. However, none of them work directly (you can burn them separately with Nero, but I still have some issues with this).

On the Pinnacle forums, one of the tech support staffers said Microsoft was working on a fix for this. And this was months ago, so I was hoping this would be part of the upcoming fix. Is it?

Thanks!

Alan Gordon

05-03-07, 07:33 PM

Sorry for the delayed response.

The PS3 does not pass advanced codecs over HDMI except for Dolby THD after decoding to PCM. I don't know if this feature will be added in the future. I fully understand why members are concerned about this, but as far as I am concerned, decoding in the player to LPCM gives us the most flexibility while maintaining sound quality.

Thanks for the information PG!

I'm planning on buying a PS3 (as well as "Spider-Man 3" for the PS3 as well) tomorrow (and really chomping at the bit to do so), and I already have a Onkyo TX-SR605 (with DTS-HD MA decoding) pre-ordered to allow me access to PCM and Dolby TrueHD tracks on Blu-Ray discs (as well as Dolby TrueHD from my HD-A2), but I'm disappointed that I don't have have access to the best audio option on 11 (and counting) of my Blu-Ray movies (10 from Fox, 1 from Lionsgate).

There was quite a bit of hullabaloo about the PS3 being one of the first devices to use HDMI 1.3, and yet, the one main advantage of HDMI 1.3 is currently not supported by the PS3.

I'm buying the PS3 as a Blu-Ray player, but I intend on buying several games for the system this year... but the lack of decoding (or outputting) of DTS-HD MA is a feature that is sorely missed by those of us who are buying/have bought the PS3 due to it's positive reviews as a Blu-Ray player... and since PS3 owners seem to be a good portion of the Blu-Ray consumers, this is a feature that Sony should try to implement for us somehow.

Please pass this request along if possible as the 2007 Onkyo AVR (TX-NR905, TX-SR875,805,705,605,575,505) Anticipation Thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=831063&page=1&pp=30) has quite a few people who are getting these receivers for their PS3s due to their decoding of DTS-HD MA.

Thanks!
~Alan

Dave Vaughn

05-03-07, 08:00 PM

Originally Posted by paidgeek
Sorry for the delayed response.

The PS3 does not pass advanced codecs over HDMI except for Dolby THD after decoding to PCM. I don't know if this feature will be added in the future. I fully understand why members are concerned about this, but as far as I am concerned, decoding in the player to LPCM gives us the most flexibility while maintaining sound quality.

Paidgeek,

If what you are stating is true, then the PS3 is NOT HDMI 1.3 compliant, it is 1.2 compliant. Having the players decode the streams is the HD DVD line of resoning, not the same line that has been coming from the BD camp. Has there been a change of heart somewhere along the line?

Thank you for your response on this.

Best,

kjack

05-03-07, 08:29 PM

Paidgeek,

If what you are stating is true, then the PS3 is NOT HDMI 1.3 compliant, it is 1.2 compliant. Having the players decode the streams is the HD DVD line of resoning, not the same line that has been coming from the BD camp. Has there been a change of heart somewhere along the line?One does not have to use all the optional features of HDMI 1.3 to be 1.3 compliant. :)

Dave Vaughn

05-03-07, 08:38 PM

Keith,

Putting on my "consumer" hat right now, I have to say that these types of "optional" features are what make me angry! Essentially the PS3 is no better than a 1.2 compliant device, right now, correct? Or am I missing something here?

amirm

05-03-07, 08:41 PM

Amirm, I was think about getting MI1 and the Matrix set this month, but I waiting on the HD DVD add-on update that will fix the low sound quality problem, will it be out before the 22 of may or after?Because if it's after I will wait till the update is out. Also why is Microsoft keeping the date of this patch a big secert?
Yes, it is slated to be out before the 22nd.

As to keeping things secret that is not the motivation. It is just that software development is an inexact science and folks forget that and hold me to specific things I say here. So as a result, I don't say specific things here :).

Dave Vaughn

05-03-07, 08:42 PM

I just pulled this from the HDMI website on HDMI 1.3:

New HD lossless audio formats: In addition to HDMI’s current ability to support high-bandwidth uncompressed digital audio and all currently-available compressed formats (such as Dolby® Digital and DTS®), HDMI 1.3 adds additional support for new lossless compressed digital audio formats Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio™.

The .pdf is attached as well. I didn't see where it said these items were "optional".

Dave Vaughn

05-03-07, 08:46 PM

Yes, it is slated to be out before the 22nd.

As to keeping things secret that is not the motivation. It is just that software development is an inexact science and folks forget that and hold me to specific things I say here. So as a result, I don't say specific things here :).

Amir, what are you specifically trying to say? :D

FilmMixer

05-03-07, 09:13 PM

I certainly don't agree with the most flexbility comment. Most flexibility would be letting the end user decide whether their player or receiver decodes the stream.

Can you name one situation where doing the decoding in the processor/receiever would be beneficial?

IMO, 1.3 offers no real advantages over 1.2, and is as big of a marketing ploy as 7.1 soundtracks, making countless enthusiasts think that they are missing out on things that won't add anything to the experience as far as movies and music are concerned (i.e. Deep Color or passing hi res bitstreams)...

I am just tagging this comment onto a question that went unanswered earlier, and I wanted to pose it again..

kjack et al... what is the difference between 1.3a and 1.3b? I see the new Onkyo receivers are 1.3a, and am curiouse about what is coming down the pike...

RobertR1

05-03-07, 09:20 PM

Can you name one situation where doing the decoding in the processor/receiever would be beneficial?

IMO, 1.3 offers no real advantages over 1.2, and is as big of a marketing ploy as 7.1 soundtracks, making countless enthusiasts think that they are missing out on things that won't add anything to the experience as far as movies and music are concerned (i.e. Deep Color or passing hi res bitstreams)...

I am just tagging this comment onto a question that went unanswered earlier, and I wanted to pose it again..

kjack et al... what is the difference between 1.3a and 1.3b? I see the new Onkyo receivers are 1.3a, and am curiouse about what is coming down the pike...

A receiver can possibly do a better job of decoding and the stream (fix any lip sync issues). It can also then take the stream and add effects to it, similar to PLxII and so forth (correct me if I'm wrong and it can't). Also, in the case of the PS3, it doesn't decode DTS HD MA so you don't get that audio as is. And this wouldn't be an issue if it simply passed the stream to the receiver and let it decode.

Perhaps an inside can't help me out if I'm right or wrong in my analysis above.

ryanmcv

05-03-07, 10:01 PM

Hi Amir,

I hope your traveling went smoothly today! Anyways, I just wanted to know if you had gathered any information about the ghosting issues I had mentioned on the previous page. I am convinced that it has something to do with the signal that the Elite is sending to the TV, as all of my other HDMI devices work flawlessly with that Samsung HDTV (model LN-S3251D).

Thanks for your help!

markrubin

05-03-07, 10:39 PM

benwaggoner

05-03-07, 10:43 PM

Amir, what are you specifically trying to say? :D
The thing about software is you only know when it's going to be done once it's already done :).

Rob Tomlin

05-03-07, 10:45 PM

Please welcome FilmMixer as our newest Insider :)

Welcome FilmMixer! :cool:

FilmMixer

05-04-07, 12:04 AM

A receiver can possibly do a better job of decoding and the stream (fix any lip sync issues). It can also then take the stream and add effects to it, similar to PLxII and so forth (correct me if I'm wrong and it can't). Also, in the case of the PS3, it doesn't decode DTS HD MA so you don't get that audio as is. And this wouldn't be an issue if it simply passed the stream to the receiver and let it decode.

Perhaps an inside can't help me out if I'm right or wrong in my analysis above.

If you think of the lossless codecs as ZIPed files, which is a great analogy for what they are, then it is hard to think that uncompressing the stream to PCM inside the player or receiver will result in any difference in the resulting PCM data... unless the transmission of this data is corrupted on the way to the processor, they should be identical. In order to add any kind of "effects" or processing to these tracks, they must first be decoded into PCM anyways... this cannot be done do to an encoded bitstream... most processors out today that accept MC PCM over HDMI allow DPLIIx (or pick your poison) overlay today.

As far as automatic lip sync correction, that is a nice feature that I will be curious to see in practice. However, any delays are just that.. delays due to processing. This will never end up in the audio being early, and most processors that have decent DSP allow you to manually do sync correction today (there is a great test for A/V sync on DVE.)

As far as the PS3, you cannot automatically assume it will pass DTS HD MA or D THD bitstreams just because it has HDMI 1.3... I fear that many people will be disappointed to find out that may not be the case in the future (my opinion only)...

Dave Vaughn

05-04-07, 12:04 AM

Yes...welcome FilmMixer (I loved your work on We Were Soldiers!).

2Channel

05-04-07, 12:43 AM

joealtus

05-04-07, 12:44 AM

I don't know what Sony Computer is planning with respect to DTH MA HD decoding on the PS3. We have discussed it, but as far as I know if it still under study.

I suspect if you were to poll PS3 users, we'd all love to see DTS MA HD decoding by the PS3, so I hope SCEI will eventually implement that.

And thank you for your response on my 720p question.

amirm

05-04-07, 03:25 AM

The recent reviews of Dreamgirls on highdefdigest.com has sparked some prolonged debate on another thread and I'm interested in feedback from any insiders who can provide input on the subject.

This title was released in both formats but uses DD at 640kbps for audio on the BD release and DD+ at 1.5mbps for audio on the HD-DVD release. Both discs received a 4/5 for AQ on highdefdigest.com with the following commentary from Peter Bracke........"Interestingly, though, I didn't find the lower bitrate of the Blu-ray produced any truly audible drop in quality"

There are two different views on why this is. One view is that by the time you have reached DD 640kbps you have reached the point of severely diminished returns. So the extra bit rate in the DD+ 1.5mbps is simply beyond the audible perception of the reviewer. Hence a lossless sound track would similarly not yield a detectable difference on this same material.
As I have written extensively in the past, detecting compression artifacts is a very challenging thing. Unless one is trained in it, one cannot hear these artifacts after some point. Indeed, even audiophiles have trouble in this regard. So I am not surprised that Peter did not hear improvement in quality. By his ears, DD at 640kbps had already achieved transparency.

I know that he has angst over lack of “high resolution audio” and hence the 4 star rating. But our goal in life is to achieve transparency. And if he can’t hear the difference beyond 640bkps, I submit that he would not hear the difference with lossless either, in a blind test. So the rule of automatically giving one less start due to lack of lossless audio, doesn’t do justice to the fidelity presented. This is especially so if the reviewer has no way of hearing the original to know what could have been there, but was not.

The other view point is that HD-DVD and its implementation of DD+ is so inefficient in the way it is encoded that there is very little "effective" (used for actual audio) bit rate difference between the DD 640kbps BD encode and the DD+ 1.5mbps HD-DVD encode. Therefore the two sound the same, because they pretty much are the same. A lossless audio encode, however, would have yielded a significant improvement in AQ.
This is absolutely incorrect (it is pretty much non-sense but don’t want to say that and insult someone :)). DD encoder when told to product 1.5 mbit/sec as its output, most definitely uses those extra bits to preserve the nuances of transients. Dolby would be the laughing stock of the audio compression community to have done what is claimed above to say nothing of the fact that there is no reason whatsoever to pad the output this way. Whoever thinks DD+ at 640bks and 1.5 mbit/sec sound the same, has no business arguing about lossless audio having merit. As there is far more difference between DD at 640k and 1.5 mbit/sec, than there is between 1.5 mbit/sec and lossless.

At 1.5mbit/sec, the lossy codec is running near the data rate of lossless codec. As such, it is applying so little quantization to the audio samples as to have no detectable effect on them. So the output is going to sound pretty much the same as lossless case. At 640kbps though, we are dealing with 2.5X higher compression ratio and skilled listeners will be able to hear the difference on transients. Non-skilled listeners though, will find the audio to be far better than anything DVD had and enjoy it just the same :).

Any explanation of the efficiency of DD on BD vs. DD+ on HD-DVD would be helpful.

It is really simple. DD has a limitation in how it packetizes its output. To understand this, one needs to keep in mind that even though we use audio codecs in constant bit rate mode (i.e. we specify a fixed data rate like 640bksp), the codecs operate in variable bitrate internally. On steady-state signals (think of a constant tone), the efficiency is quite high and the codec outputs far fewer bits than what it inputs. When transients come, like guitar strings, then the codec must spend considerably more bits to avoid distortions such as pre-echo. So the data rate peaks.

To deal with these variations and output a constant bitrate, the codec uses an output buffer which packs the bits (i.e. averaging peaks and valleys). With right feedback loop from the output buffer, one can assure the target bit rate is hit, even with high and low variations. Turns out this is pretty tricky code to write in the generic sense. The codec has certain boundaries which must be obeyed even with this output buffering as sending incomplete fragments could cause problems if some data is lost (i.e. the receiver cannot recover properly). And this is the problem with DD bitstream syntax. When used in the MPEG transport stream in HD DVD, DD is not able to support data rates above 440kbps because that breaks its packetization logic. The fault here though, is NOT with HD DVD but with the way the codec output buffer system was designed.

DD+ fixes the above restriction, allowing any data rate to be used. As it should be because competing codecs such as our WMA Pro, also can output their data stream at any rate into MEPG transport stream without trouble.

Now, why BD stays with the older and more restrictive syntax is beyond me. Yes, by not using transport stream, they can get around some of the limitations in the DD packetization but they still wind up with a kludgey system when it comes to supporting higher channels which DD+ does natively.

If the above is the reason for hypothesis #2, then I can tell you that people are barking at the wrong tree :). Packetization just determines how you pack the bits to be stored. The encoder works the same in both scenarios except that in the case of 1.5 mbit/sec, is able to “breath” a lot better and produce much cleaner transients. Per above though, the reduction in distortion may not be audible to most people. But the encoder definitely is working a lot less in compressing bits when given the larger pipe.

price3

05-04-07, 08:40 AM

Can any insider tell me any way of hearing DTS-HD MA soundtracks? If the (highest volume BD player) PS3 cannot decode it to PCM, and also cannot output the encoded bitstream to the incoming receivers that can decode, what are our other options? Which released or announced player can do these things?

dr1394

05-04-07, 09:40 AM

It is really simple. DD has a limitation in how it packetizes its output. To understand this, one needs to keep in mind that even though we use audio codecs in constant bit rate mode (i.e. we specify a fixed data rate like 640bksp), the codecs operate in variable bitrate internally. On steady-state signals (think of a constant tone), the efficiency is quite high and the codec outputs far fewer bits than what it inputs. When transients come, like guitar strings, then the codec must spend considerably more bits to avoid distortions such as pre-echo. So the data rate peaks.

To deal with these variations and output a constant bitrate, the codec uses an output buffer which packs the bits (i.e. averaging peaks and valleys). With right feedback loop from the output buffer, one can assure the target bit rate is hit, even with high and low variations. Turns out this is pretty tricky code to write in the generic sense. The codec has certain boundaries which must be obeyed even with this output buffering as sending incomplete fragments could cause problems if some data is lost (i.e. the receiver cannot recover properly). And this is the problem with DD bitstream syntax. When used in the MPEG transport stream in HD DVD, DD is not able to support data rates above 440kbps because that breaks its packetization logic. The fault here though, is NOT with HD DVD but with the way the codec output buffer system was designed.

You're way off the beam here. Read Dolby's White paper on HD-DVD Program Stream limitations.

http://www.dolby.com/assets/pdf/tech_library/DPlus_TrueHD_whitepaper.pdf

On page 6, there's a section called "Unique aspects of Dolby Digital Plus on Blu-ray Disc vs HD-DVD".

Ron

FilmMixer

05-04-07, 09:49 AM

Aitor Ibarra

05-04-07, 10:00 AM

Amir,

In an earlier you post you explained that the team that was working on HD DVD playback for Vista had moved onto the 360 and that for now at least you were leaving PC/MCE integration to third parties (e.g. Cyberlink). Now that it looks like the remaining issues with 360 have been fixed by updates and HDMI on the Elite, is it possible that Microsoft could spend more developer time improving the PC experience?

I would love to see HD DVD properly integrated into Media Center, and when managed copy finally gets sorted out (any updates on that?) , it will be a great feature to integrate too. I was really hoping that Vista Ultimate would support all of this out of the box...

If you prefer to leave it to others to fill in the gaps, can you / are you doing something to help them? PowerDVD Ultra and the other players are still pretty buggy, the hardware situation is pretty dire too, especially if you're looking for hi-def audio over hdmi.

Any insights into what you & others are doing would be most welcome!

Also, is Microsoft talking to HD broadcasters (e.g. Sky, Virgin, the BBC if it gets permission to re-use analogue TV bandwidth) in the UK to get some kind of support from them for Media Center? Ditto for VC-1...

Thanks,

Aitor

Frank Derks

05-04-07, 10:04 AM

paidgeek

05-04-07, 10:20 AM

Thanks for the information PG!

I'm planning on buying a PS3 (as well as "Spider-Man 3" for the PS3 as well) tomorrow (and really chomping at the bit to do so), and I already have a Onkyo TX-SR605 (with DTS-HD MA decoding) pre-ordered to allow me access to PCM and Dolby TrueHD tracks on Blu-Ray discs (as well as Dolby TrueHD from my HD-A2), but I'm disappointed that I don't have have access to the best audio option on 11 (and counting) of my Blu-Ray movies (10 from Fox, 1 from Lionsgate).

There was quite a bit of hullabaloo about the PS3 being one of the first devices to use HDMI 1.3, and yet, the one main advantage of HDMI 1.3 is currently not supported by the PS3.

I'm buying the PS3 as a Blu-Ray player, but I intend on buying several games for the system this year... but the lack of decoding (or outputting) of DTS-HD MA is a feature that is sorely missed by those of us who are buying/have bought the PS3 due to it's positive reviews as a Blu-Ray player... and since PS3 owners seem to be a good portion of the Blu-Ray consumers, this is a feature that Sony should try to implement for us somehow.

Please pass this request along if possible as the 2007 Onkyo AVR (TX-NR905, TX-SR875,805,705,605,575,505) Anticipation Thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=831063&page=1&pp=30) has quite a few people who are getting these receivers for their PS3s due to their decoding of DTS-HD MA.

Thanks!
~Alan

Alan, et al.

I will reiterate the message to SCEI that the members positively want DTS HD MA capability on the PS3.

Paul_Seng

05-04-07, 10:41 AM

Alan, et al.

I will reiterate the message to SCEI that the members positively want DTS HD MA capability on the PS3.
Paidgeek,
If you can also post that we would also like 1080P/24 that would be nice too. I would hate that all of the stat's about blu-ray players out there are relying on the PS3 yet we can't get 24hz and it has the horsepower to do it.
Thanks

amirm

05-04-07, 11:49 AM

You're way off the beam here. Read Dolby's White paper on HD-DVD Program Stream limitations.

http://www.dolby.com/assets/pdf/tech_library/DPlus_TrueHD_whitepaper.pdf

On page 6, there's a section called "Unique aspects of Dolby Digital Plus on Blu-ray Disc vs HD-DVD".

Ron

Appreciate the comment Ron. But I don’t think I am off base here, let alone “way off base.” :) Keep in mind that we have implemented both DD and DD+ in our products and we are a ton of people who understand audio compression at the most fundamental level. And that for the first five years of my career at Microsoft, I did little but help develop our audio compression technology and specifically was involved in the design of the packetization logic and innovations we came up with to avoid the very issue DD suffers from here. Our audio technology is not used in these formats so you don’t see me talking about that topic often but that doesn’t mean I am still learning how to screw in a light bulb in this area :D.

But yes, I had read that paper. It is really a marketing piece, not technical (even though it looks technical). So I don’t rely on it although what is there is consistent with what I have said anyway. If you want to understand DD+, you need to read the AES technical paper which talks about the algorithm in detail for people who understand audio compression. In there, you see the following: http://www.dolby.com/assets/pdf/tech_library/pa_at_AES%20Intro%20to%20Dolby%20Digital%20Plus.pdf

“The E-AC-3 (DD+) system enables more control over the data rate of the bitstream than the standard AC-3 system in order to provide greater flexibility required by new applications… This increased flexibility allows for both a greater maximum data rate and a finer resolution between data rates than the AC-3 system… The number of usable data rates is significantly expanded over the AC-3 system.”

So it is abundantly clear that Dolby removed core limitations in the AC-3/DD bitstream syntax to allow arbitrary data rates in any transport. Which is what one expects when a company improves one of its products.

Sure, one solution is to have others bend to deal with the limitations in the codec. But another is to have the proper design that works everywhere. This is what DD+ does. And what we do day in, day out, with our own audio codecs. DD+ is a clear advancement in this area and others over DD.

If you are still unconvinced, let's say Adobe decided to put DD in their Flash player tomorrow and required certain packet boundaries to deal with lossy internet transmission. If DD cannot handle that, but our codec can, are you are going to defend DD and say it is the fault of Flash? I hope not. One would lose the design win and that would be the end of that.

Anyway, I didn’t realize you had dived into audio in addition to video. If you tell me the depth of your experience here, I can dive deeper if needed. Otherwise, I assume this explanation settles the matter.

Dan Hitchman

05-04-07, 11:56 AM

Thanks for your efforts thus far, paidgeek. I really, really hope you can sway the fine folks at Sony electronics to either first update the PS3 to decode DTS-MA internally and/or switch on the full HDMI 1.3 audio bitstream portion via firmware... FAST!

I too have a hankering for a new receiver or pre-amp with the latest and greatest audio/video features (and sound quality!!) some time this summer to replace my aging processor, and hopefully Sony won't leave us hanging while these new products get released... wouldn't hurt the PR aspects either. :D

Dan

RobertR1

05-04-07, 11:56 AM

Amir,

Would you please check with Toshiba regarding the XA2 on one thing. Since it has HDMI1.3, will it pass on the DTHD and DTS HD MA streams untouched to a HDMI1.3 receiver and let it handle the decoding?

Thanks,
Robert.

alfbinet

05-04-07, 12:20 PM

Is the XA2 firmware upgradeable to decode DTS HD MA?

amirm

05-04-07, 12:32 PM

bobgpsr

05-04-07, 12:42 PM

I have been told (second hand) that it does but will confirm.This is surprising -- or will the XA2 only do this for HD DVDs authored in Basic mode ? -- good news anyway if so :). I thought we had it explained to us many times that discs authored in Advanced mode required player decoding, mixing with button sounds and commentary audio and then output. Or is there a secret user option easter egg buried button to pass bitstream if the player sees a HDMI 1.3 receiver downstream that advertises dts-HD MA, etc capability? ;)

Andy Pennell

05-04-07, 01:19 PM

amirm

05-04-07, 01:47 PM

This is surprising -- or will the XA2 only do this for HD DVDs authored in Basic mode ? -- good news anyway if so :). I thought we had it explained to us many times that discs authored in Advanced mode required player decoding, mixing with button sounds and commentary audio and then output. Or is there a secret user option easter egg buried button to pass bitstream if the player sees a HDMI 1.3 receiver downstream that advertises dts-HD MA, etc capability? ;)
Isn't there a "bitstream" output format for HDMI audio already? If so, that should be all you need to set. If the receiver supports 1.3 and does MA decoding, then it should "just work." (says he, holding his fingers crossed, given the mess that HDMI is as far as compatibility).

But yes, you would lose interactivity sound plus picture in picture, etc. Same is true of BD format btw. I seem to recall that on the Samsung, one of its outputs has interactivity sounds, and the other does not! The same would happen here in that your analog/SPDIF output will have interactivity and HDMI not. As a work-around, you could hook up both connections and switch between them, say, to listen to Picture in Picture sound. This would be a good test to see how motivated people really are to get that last bit of quality they think they are not getting :).

Also, always hearing the interactivity sound is not a mandatory thing. The player must support them, yes. But they can also put in optional features that defeat it such as the above. Content owners are sure to complain, but if the feature is reserved for high-end solutions, maybe it won't be as bad....

Finally, please hang in there until I confirm this is really there.

bobgpsr

05-04-07, 01:52 PM

AlexBC

05-04-07, 03:17 PM

Sorry for the very delayed response.

I understand the interest in having multiple versions on one disc, but there is not a lot of interest in doing this at the studio. I adds significantly to the complexity of preparing the title, in part because of audio splice issues that can arise. We will use this feature on a title this year, but not on "The Patriot". It will go out as the extended version.

Thanks Paidgeek

can we at least expect the TC down the road? I love it, but can't stand the EE.

RobertR1

05-04-07, 03:26 PM

Isn't there a "bitstream" output format for HDMI audio already? If so, that should be all you need to set. If the receiver supports 1.3 and does MA decoding, then it should "just work." (says he, holding his fingers crossed, given the mess that HDMI is as far as compatibility).

But yes, you would lose interactivity sound plus picture in picture, etc. Same is true of BD format btw. I seem to recall that on the Samsung, one of its outputs has interactivity sounds, and the other does not! The same would happen here in that your analog/SPDIF output will have interactivity and HDMI not. As a work-around, you could hook up both connections and switch between them, say, to listen to Picture in Picture sound. This would be a good test to see how motivated people really are to get that last bit of quality they think they are not getting :).

Also, always hearing the interactivity sound is not a mandatory thing. The player must support them, yes. But they can also put in optional features that defeat it such as the above. Content owners are sure to complain, but if the feature is reserved for high-end solutions, maybe it won't be as bad....

Finally, please hang in there until I confirm this is really there.

Talk about confusing :) So let me get this right:

Player A, which is HDMI1.3 and is able to pass on the encoded audio stream to the receiver, can only play the main audio track IF the receiver is doing the decoding. If you want the interactivity, the audio must be decoded internally, mixed with the interactivity audio and then output as PCM to the receiver.

So, if you want the full package, wating for a HDMI1.3 receiver that can handle DTS HD and TruHD decoding is pointless unless you only want the main audio track?

xbdestroya

05-04-07, 03:41 PM

...numerous PS3-related responses...

Hi Paidgeek, first of all I of course want to say I personally appreciate your continued presence on this forum; you're of great benefit in getting questions answered and providing insights. :)

In terms of Playstation 3-related queries though, I have to wonder why you don't gracefully recuse yourself from that field. It's not a knock against you - believe me - but as someone that remains in close touch with several people over at SCEI, I get the sense sometimes that some of the PS3-related questions are as much an unknown to you as they are to some of the people asking. I just feel that there is a *lot* of drama wrapped up in this device, and personally in your shoes I would just say: "That's a question for SCEI, not for Sony Pictures."

A lot of folk around here seem to either forget or not to know in the first place that SCEI and Sony electronics... let alone Sony pictures... are two entirely different branches of the company that don't talk/deal/coordinate that much with each other save on a very high level.

I guess my specific question is... why even field that line of questioning when you know the black/white answers folk truly want are beyond all of our present abilities to acquire? I mean you've *got* to be tired of dealing with DTS-MA/PS3 questioning by this point; hell this is just the latest in a long legacy on that one aspect alone.

FilmMixer

05-04-07, 03:42 PM

So, if you want the full package, wating for a HDMI1.3 receiver that can handle DTS HD and TruHD decoding is pointless unless you only want the main audio track?

In my opinion, yes.

RobertR1

05-04-07, 03:44 PM

In my opinion, yes.

Thank you. I'll just get a Marantz 7001 to take care of my needs. Now I'm upset I waited this long :(

The full package is important to me as I have grown a liking to IME and extras.

paidgeek

05-04-07, 06:05 PM

Hi Paidgeek, first of all I of course want to say I personally appreciate your continued presence on this forum; you're of great benefit in getting questions answered and providing insights. :)

In terms of Playstation 3-related queries though, I have to wonder why you don't gracefully recuse yourself from that field. It's not a knock against you - believe me - but as someone that remains in close touch with several people over at SCEI, I get the sense sometimes that some of the PS3-related questions are as much an unknown to you as they are to some of the people asking. I just feel that there is a *lot* of drama wrapped up in this device, and personally in your shoes I would just say: "That's a question for SCEI, not for Sony Pictures."

A lot of folk around here seem to either forget or not to know in the first place that SCEI and Sony electronics... let alone Sony pictures... are two entirely different branches of the company that don't talk/deal/coordinate that much with each other save on a very high level.

I guess my specific question is... why even field that line of questioning when you know the black/white answers folk truly want are beyond all of our present abilities to acquire? I mean you've *got* to be tired of dealing with DTS-MA/PS3 questioning by this point; hell this is just the latest in a long legacy on that one aspect alone.

Thanks for your comments and empathy.

It is accurate to say that I don't have much concrete information on the timing of feature releases from SCEI. Even so, I encourage members to continue asking questions on PS3 matters as I can forward them to the appropriate persons in SCEI.

Dan Hitchman

05-04-07, 06:38 PM

In a perfect world it would be nice if different branches of the same company would communicate more with each other... kind of like the left hand knowing what the right hand is doing.

Seeing as the PS3 has become, whether warranted or not, the player in the forefront of the Blu-ray charge, I can see why people (like myself) would want movie related issues with the PS3 to be resolved quickly and efficiently (DTS MA decoding and/or HDMI 1.3 audio passthrough, black and white level clipping, 1080p/24 output, random Blu-ray disc freezing when the network connection is engaged, quality upscaling, etc.) and am very glad that someone like paidgeek is around and is willing to forward our requests along.

Thank you, once again! Kudos.

wickedbob

05-04-07, 06:47 PM

Does anybody know whether the mpeg4 and h264 support in the new xbox360 update will allow me to view material encoded in 720p and 1080p resolutions?

Andy Pennell

05-04-07, 07:12 PM

Does anybody know whether the mpeg4 and h264 support in the new xbox360 update will allow me to view material encoded in 720p and 1080p resolutions?

Are you asking about the HD DVD update, or the Dashboard update? The HD DVD player has always been able to decode those resolutions of all supported codecs. (I know nothing about the Dashboard update).

TomsHT

05-04-07, 08:05 PM

Thanks for your comments and empathy.

It is accurate to say that I don't have much concrete information on the timing of feature releases from SCEI. Even so, I encourage members to continue asking questions on PS3 matters as I can forward them to the appropriate persons in SCEI.

They turn fast on ya when you post an answer that they dont want to hear, all of a sudden your not credible. :rolleyes:

If you can add to the whole DTS-HD MA coming to the PS3 it would be helpful. Currently (as with most things hi def here) semantics is running wild on your past statements at to the exact meaning of whether or not the update is coming or not.

If it can be confirmed anyhow that would be great if not it would probably be better to put the whole issue to rest now so we can move on to the next subject.

Thanks Paid

wickedbob

05-04-07, 09:10 PM

Are you asking about the HD DVD update, or the Dashboard update? The HD DVD player has always been able to decode those resolutions of all supported codecs. (I know nothing about the Dashboard update).

Sorry Andy, I thought I made this quite clear.
I mean the mpeg4 and h264 codec playback that is being made available in the new dashboard update.

Ps.. what exactly do you develop at Microsoft?

John Haghighi

05-04-07, 09:37 PM

As I have written extensively in the past, detecting compression artifacts is a very challenging thing. Unless one is trained in it, one cannot hear these artifacts after some point. Indeed, even audiophiles have trouble in this regard. So I am not surprised that Peter did not hear improvement in quality. By his ears, DD at 640kbps had already achieved transparency.

I know that he has angst over lack of “high resolution audio” and hence the 4 star rating. But our goal in life is to achieve transparency. And if he can’t hear the difference beyond 640bkps, I submit that he would not hear the difference with lossless either, in a blind test. So the rule of automatically giving one less start due to lack of lossless audio, doesn’t do justice to the fidelity presented. This is especially so if the reviewer has no way of hearing the original to know what could have been there, but was not.

This is absolutely incorrect (it is pretty much non-sense but don’t want to say that and insult someone :)). DD encoder when told to product 1.5 mbit/sec as its output, most definitely uses those extra bits to preserve the nuances of transients. Dolby would be the laughing stock of the audio compression community to have done what is claimed above to say nothing of the fact that there is no reason whatsoever to pad the output this way. Whoever thinks DD+ at 640bks and 1.5 mbit/sec sound the same, has no business arguing about lossless audio having merit. As there is far more difference between DD at 640k and 1.5 mbit/sec, than there is between 1.5 mbit/sec and lossless.

At 1.5mbit/sec, the lossy codec is running near the data rate of lossless codec. As such, it is applying so little quantization to the audio samples as to have no detectable effect on them. So the output is going to sound pretty much the same as lossless case. At 640kbps though, we are dealing with 2.5X higher compression ratio and skilled listeners will be able to hear the difference on transients. Non-skilled listeners though, will find the audio to be far better than anything DVD had and enjoy it just the same :).

It is really simple. DD has a limitation in how it packetizes its output. To understand this, one needs to keep in mind that even though we use audio codecs in constant bit rate mode (i.e. we specify a fixed data rate like 640bksp), the codecs operate in variable bitrate internally. On steady-state signals (think of a constant tone), the efficiency is quite high and the codec outputs far fewer bits than what it inputs. When transients come, like guitar strings, then the codec must spend considerably more bits to avoid distortions such as pre-echo. So the data rate peaks.

To deal with these variations and output a constant bitrate, the codec uses an output buffer which packs the bits (i.e. averaging peaks and valleys). With right feedback loop from the output buffer, one can assure the target bit rate is hit, even with high and low variations. Turns out this is pretty tricky code to write in the generic sense. The codec has certain boundaries which must be obeyed even with this output buffering as sending incomplete fragments could cause problems if some data is lost (i.e. the receiver cannot recover properly). And this is the problem with DD bitstream syntax. When used in the MPEG transport stream in HD DVD, DD is not able to support data rates above 440kbps because that breaks its packetization logic. The fault here though, is NOT with HD DVD but with the way the codec output buffer system was designed.

DD+ fixes the above restriction, allowing any data rate to be used. As it should be because competing codecs such as our WMA Pro, also can output their data stream at any rate into MEPG transport stream without trouble.

Now, why BD stays with the older and more restrictive syntax is beyond me. Yes, by not using transport stream, they can get around some of the limitations in the DD packetization but they still wind up with a kludgey system when it comes to supporting higher channels which DD+ does natively.

If the above is the reason for hypothesis #2, then I can tell you that people are barking at the wrong tree :). Packetization just determines how you pack the bits to be stored. The encoder works the same in both scenarios except that in the case of 1.5 mbit/sec, is able to “breath” a lot better and produce much cleaner transients. Per above though, the reduction in distortion may not be audible to most people. But the encoder definitely is working a lot less in compressing bits when given the larger pipe.

Amir, thanks for your continued detailed explanation on the audio front.
I foresee this coming up again and again, and what are we to take away from this?

Your opinion of what someone can hear is subjective at best correct?
It's fine to make sweeping statements about the masses, but many folks here spend lots of $$$ on equipment and some even have trained musical ears! Do you believe by discounting the possibility of various factors involved in a playback environment you are going to change opinions on this topic?

In the early days of HD DVD and Blu-ray, before it was even released, all the talk by industry insiders was lossless audio and 1080P video because there was plenty space, now that we've got real market products we are seeing detailed explanations of why we shouldn't care for lossless audio because we can't hear the differences. Do you understand why this topic keeps coming up again and again?

If the space is available, give us lossless, allow us to decode and transport it natively, and let the consumer decide what they can and can't hear, and what's marketing fluff...don't we do the same for video codecs (avc vs. vc-1; mpeg2 vs. vc-1)?

benwaggoner

05-04-07, 09:56 PM

If the space is available, give us lossless, allow us to decode and transport it natively, and let the consumer decide what they can and can't hear, and what's marketing fluff...don't we do the same for video codecs (avc vs. vc-1; mpeg2 vs. vc-1)?
There's never been a lossless video codec targeted for consumers. Heck, most video content production goes through at least one lossy phase.

John Haghighi

05-04-07, 10:18 PM

There's never been a lossless video codec targeted for consumers. Heck, most video content production goes through at least one lossy phase.

Ben to clarify, my point was with video we have cases were we can choose between an MPEG-2 and VC-1 titles and make are own decisions about which we prefer, key point being regardless of what the detailed explanations of why one codec is better than another with certain material, the consumer has a choice, perhaps that's not going to be case in the future as WB seems to be settling on VC-1...

All I'm saying is the studios should give consumers the choice when it comes to audio...if the space is there provide lossless or uncompressed audio...let us decide what to listen too "."

Andy Pennell

05-04-07, 11:48 PM

Ps.. what exactly do you develop at Microsoft?

I'm on the HD DVD team (ie AmirM is my VP). I've been work mostly on the Xbox player in recent times, though before that I worked on iHDSim (which is the PC "HD DVD simulator" included in the HDi Jumpstart kit for HD DVD authors). Before that I owned the Visual Studio debugger. Before that, well, that was a long time ago.

amirm

05-05-07, 12:03 AM

It's not a DD audio issue, it's a DVD and HD-DVD MPEG-2 Program Stream muxing issue. Dolby added variable blocks per frame not to just have higher bitrates, but to get around the 448 kbps maximum bitrate issue of DVD and HD-DVD Program Streams.
HD DVD has no “448kbps maximum bitrate issue” as otherwise DTS would not be able to stuff 1.5 mbit/sec in there ;). As we do with WMA Pro just the same. Yes, given the way DD is designed, it suffers from that limiation. But that is why it was changed in the process of creating DD+. And hence my comment on where the blame resides.

Look, I am not here to defend mpeg specifications – we didn’t invent the darn thing :). We use our own system stream for Windows Media. The point here is that we and others have no problem putting the output of our audio codecs in the same enclosure in HD DVD/DVD. So to condemn the enclosure because one codec can’t fully utilize it, seems “off base to me.” Not the other way around.

BTW, I'm not an audio expert, but I am an MPEG-2 Systems Transport Stream expert.
Ron
I suspect your expertise here does not explain why BD format seems to limit DD+ to 640kbps for 5.1 tracks in that format. :) Or why the limited the max rate for DD+ extension to a much lower value than HD DVD.

Andy Pennell

05-05-07, 12:07 AM

...is it possible that Microsoft could spend more developer time improving the PC experience?

If you prefer to leave it to others to fill in the gaps, can you / are you doing something to help them? PowerDVD Ultra and the other players are still pretty buggy, the hardware situation is pretty dire too, especially if you're looking for hi-def audio over hdmi.

Yes, we are working with 3rd parties to help them with their PC HD DVD players. We have a special program called the Experience Initiative where we share information with 3rd parties and have "Plug-Fests" to check on title compatibility between the various players. For more info see http://www.microsoft.com/emea/itsshowtime/sessionh.aspx?videoid=175 . On the hardware front I know the Windows OEM team are working on the HDMI issues.

amirm

05-05-07, 12:25 AM

Your opinion of what someone can hear is subjective at best correct?
Well, it is and it isn't. We have tested hundreds of "subjects" in the last 10 years that we have been doing audio codec development. We have run large scale tests of listeners at Microsoft. We have tested the common man. We have tested audiophiles with golden ears. And we have tested "expert listeners." The only people who can reliably detect codec artifacts in small amounts are the last category (i.e. people who are trained specifically to detect codec artifacts and know what to listen for). This fact has remained constant in all of our testing.

It's fine to make sweeping statements about the masses, but many folks here spend lots of $$$ on equipment and some even have trained musical ears! Do you believe by discounting the possibility of various factors involved in a playback environment you are going to change opinions on this topic?
No I am not and am not attempting that. For enjoyment of music, people can chase the last bit of quality, real or not. I will never engage in that kind of argument. I know better :). My beef is with film content. I simply remain unconvinced that people enjoy movies more if they are given that last bit of quality they think they are missing. There is a lot more to a movie enjoyment, than the purist audio experience. I mean when was the last time you saw a movie review that talked about "sound stage" and where the instruments were placed in front him/her? Yet that is common terminology in music reviews.

Movie sound is high synthetic anyway so talking about “lossless” makes one wonder, what is really meant by that. The sound has gone through so many mixing stages and other changes that the notion that it is lossless has little meaning. Lossless relative to what? In music, one can strive for very pure reproduction of what one would hear in the real world. Such does not exist for movies.

In the early days of HD DVD and Blu-ray, before it was even released, all the talk by industry insiders was lossless audio and 1080P video because there was plenty space, now that we've got real market products we are seeing detailed explanations of why we shouldn't care for lossless audio because we can't hear the differences. Do you understand why this topic keeps coming up again and again?
I do but I think it is more of an emotional thing, than a scientific thing. Most people watch movies at 448kbps DD on DVD today. And until now, there were no riots in the streets, with people complaining about audio quality. Yet the kind of people you talk about with $$$ equipment, really, really complained about CD being harsh and such as compared to LP. Why the contrast? The reason must be what I stated. Music and film are two different animals. As is the psychoacoustical aspects of 5.1 film content relative to stereo music.

If the space is available, give us lossless, allow us to decode and transport it natively, and let the consumer decide what they can and can't hear, and what's marketing fluff...don't we do the same for video codecs (avc vs. vc-1; mpeg2 vs. vc-1)?
I can’t argue with this :). Studios might, in positioning some titles higher than others. But I won’t argue with it…

wickedbob

05-05-07, 01:00 AM

I'm on the HD DVD team (ie AmirM is my VP). I've been work mostly on the Xbox player in recent times, though before that I worked on iHDSim (which is the PC "HD DVD simulator" included in the HDi Jumpstart kit for HD DVD authors). Before that I owned the Visual Studio debugger. Before that, well, that was a long time ago.

Cool. Thanks for the clarification and your hard work on the xbox player - it is the best way to view HD content in my house.

Do you have access to knowing if Microsoft has plans/ambitions to release a consumer iHD authoring application? Something a bit more "for dummies" than the jumpstart kit.

TomsHT

05-05-07, 01:17 AM

Cool. Thanks for the clarification and your hard work on the xbox player - it is the best way to view HD content in my house.

Do you have access to knowing if Microsoft has plans/ambitions to release a consumer iHD authoring application? Something a bit more "for dummies" than the jumpstart kit.

Also can iHD be programmed in the VS.Net studio environment?

Andy Pennell

05-05-07, 01:20 AM

Do you have access to knowing if Microsoft has plans/ambitions to release a consumer iHD authoring application? Something a bit more "for dummies" than the jumpstart kit.

I'm just an engineer, an engineer that values his job, so you won't see any info from me about future plans on anything unless someone else goes officially public with it first. It's no fun I know :D

At CES I did see Nero claiming HD DVD authoring coming soon as a free update.

Andy Pennell

05-05-07, 01:24 AM

Also can iHD be programmed in the VS.Net studio environment?

Absolutely, that's what we use! VS has a reasonable XML editor and a Javascript one too, which is all you need for the Advanced content. There's no specific iHD suppport in VS, but as an editor (and a script debugger if using ihdsim) its very usable for HDi (yeah I know, I can't get used to the new name either). It can also handle the big-endian unicode js files that are required, which many other editors can choke on.

ryanmcv

05-05-07, 01:59 AM

Hi Amir,

Hopefully you can give some insight on my problem with the Elite.

I have my new Elite hooked up via HDMI to my Samsung 32" LCD HDTV (model LN-S3251D (http://www.samsung.com/Products/TV/ArchivedTVs_2006/LNS3251DXXAA.asp?page=Specifications)). The dashboard, DVDs, HD DVDs, and downloaded videos appear perfectly. But whenever I start up a game, I begin to have ghosting and after-image issues. Black/dark areas on the screen become a bit "snowy" and I can see the grey outlines of images that were previously there. Colors also appear faded and washed-out. Again, this ONLY happens when I play games. Everything else appears just fine.

I have tried using several different HDMI cables, and I've tried using both of my HDMI ports on the TV. Nothing seems to be helping. When I connect the 360 via component, I have no problems with ghosting. So it doesn't appear to be a problem with the video card on the console. I've also tried hooking it up via HDMI to a Sony 32" LCD and haven't had any problems with that set. I only get the ghosting on my Samsung LCD. I've tried adjusting all of the video settings on the Samsung, but nothing gets rid of the ghosting while playing games.

Any idea what could be causing this? Will the spring update next week address this? Thanks for all of your hard work! I really appreciate the Xbox team's commitment to their customers.

Amir,

Just to add to my above post about the ghosting issues I'm having with the Elite:

I have a friend who has the 40" model of that same TV and he is also having this ghosting issue with the HDMI output on his Elite. There is also a thread going on over at the Xbox.com forums where another user is having the same problem on a newer-model Samsung (link (http://forums.xbox.com/12079784/ShowPost.aspx)). And there are more postings by Samsung-owners on other sites that are reporting this same issue.

There definitely seems to be an issue with the Xbox 360 Elite and certain Samsung HDTVs. I have reverted back to component cables for now, as I simply cannot achieve a good gaming experience through the HDMI port due to the ghosting issues that I described in my above post.

Just wanted to bring this issue back to light, as it has been burried by all these posts about audio on HD DVD and Blu-ray.

Roger Dressler

05-05-07, 04:05 AM

...And this is the problem with DD bitstream syntax. When used in the MPEG transport stream in HD DVD, DD is not able to support data rates above 440kbps because that breaks its packetization logic. The fault here though, is NOT with HD DVD but with the way the codec output buffer system was designed.

...HD DVD has no “448kbps maximum bitrate issue” as otherwise DTS would not be able to stuff 1.5 mbit/sec in there. As we do with WMA Pro just the same. Yes, given the way DD is designed, it suffers from that limitation. The issue with DD bitrate in DVD and likewise on HD DVD has nothing to do with MPEG streams breaking the DD audio. One of the very first DVDs made, the Delos DVD Spectacular, has a hidden DD 640 track on it, which plays fine in Sony DVD players--maybe others, new and old. Then why can’t DVDs use 640? The DVD Forum establishes rules for how the format works. One of the rules requires every elementary stream packet to have a start header in it. It helps with trick play, branching, etc. But the format doesn't break if that rule is violated, as was shown with our secret test disc. (By the way, the Pink Floyd concert DVD "Pulse" also has a 640 track on it.)

In DVD, the audio packets are 2048 bytes, or 16 kbits. One frame of DD is 32 ms long, so 16kb/32ms = 500kb/s. That is the maximum allowed. The highest supported rate for DD is 448 kb/s. The next higher bitrate of 512 kbps would not fit.

So how is it that DTS can have 1.5 Mbps, 3x the 500 kbps rate we calculated? DTS uses a 10ms coding frame (1/3 the duration of the DD frame). Hence, three times the bitrate. (16kb/10ms = 1.6Mbps.)

What we did with DD+ was design the syntax to support frames of 32, 16, 10, and 5 ms, thus allowing up to 3 Mbps in the HD DVD structure.

I suspect your [MPEG] expertise here does not explain why BD format seems to limit DD+ to 640kbps for 5.1 tracks in that format. Or why the limited the max rate for DD+ extension to a much lower value than HD DVD. The BD format is not limiting DD+, per se, except that since DD+ is optional rather than mandatory, Dolby worked out a way to allow the disc to carry the benefits of DD+ (higher bitrates and more channels) while also ensuring the stream can be decoded by standard DD chips. Since standard DD is designed with a max bitrate of 640 kbps, that is the limit for the core 5.1 portion of the stream.

And just so no one thinks I’m seeking to disagree with Amir, I totally agree with his views in Post 4345. It mirrors my own findings. Well said.

reincarnate

05-05-07, 06:35 AM

And just so no one thinks I’m seeking to disagree with Amir, I totally agree with his views in Post 4345. It mirrors my own findings. Well said.
Roger,
Do you hear a large difference when comparing the sound quality of Dolby TrueHD encoding vs. DD+?
Also why don't the players (Toshiba XA2 and PS3) default to Dolby TrueHD decoding rather than DD+? Why do I manually have to go switch it from the remote every time?

umr

05-05-07, 07:58 AM

Roger,

Do you get to listen to a variety of final products?

I work on about 300 surround systems a year. In my work I listen to the same audio sequences on every system. I am stunned to hear what sounds to me like software glitches in a fairly large number of products on the market. Some of the time it is a buzzing sound that should not be there and other times things just sound wrong. In many cases I am able to eliminate these problems by changing to or from a processing mode like THX while in other products it is always present. Add to this the LFE problems encountered today and we seem to have a mess on our hands with software QC.

What is your take on this and if you agree is Dolby doing anything to ensure the software is executed properly in the final product?

Andy Pennell

05-05-07, 10:31 AM

Also why don't the players (Toshiba XA2 and PS3) default to Dolby TrueHD decoding rather than DD+? Why do I manually have to go switch it from the remote every time?
For Advanced Content HD DVD titles the default tracks are determined by the content authors. Not sure about Standard Content.

amirm

05-05-07, 10:32 AM

Just wanted to bring this issue back to light, as it has been burried by all these posts about audio on HD DVD and Blu-ray.
Neither us or Xbox team have any guesses as what could be causeing this ghosting. Can you see if someone can take a good picture of it and PM me with that. And in there, be very clear as to whether DLNIe is turned off in Samsung? Also, there is a firmware upgrade for larger Samsung's to enable 1:1 pixel mapping. People should do this and see if it fixes things as without it, you are going to get filtering in the set which can cause something like it. There is a thread on this in the LCD section of AVS (for the 409x series).

darinp2

05-05-07, 01:29 PM

The BD format is not limiting DD+, per se, except that since DD+ is optional rather than mandatory, Dolby worked out a way to allow the disc to carry the benefits of DD+ (higher bitrates and more channels) while also ensuring the stream can be decoded by standard DD chips. Since standard DD is designed with a max bitrate of 640 kbps, that is the limit for the core 5.1 portion of the stream.Thanks Roger. I know this has been covered some in the past, but I just want to make sure I have it right. Can DD+ with greater than 640k be used on BD without going to more than 5.1 channels?

--Darin

darinp2

05-05-07, 01:32 PM

paidgeek,

I notice that there is a movie coming out December 21st ("The Other Boleyn Girl") with Natalie Portman and Scarlett Johansson which imdb lists Columbia as having the theatrical rights to in the US (here http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0467200/companycredits ). Can you tell us if Columbia has the disc rights also?

Thanks,
Darin

ryanmcv

05-05-07, 01:44 PM

Neither us or Xbox team have any guesses as what could be causeing this ghosting. Can you see if someone can take a good picture of it and PM me with that. And in there, be very clear as to whether DLNIe is turned off in Samsung? Also, there is a firmware upgrade for larger Samsung's to enable 1:1 pixel mapping. People should do this and see if it fixes things as without it, you are going to get filtering in the set which can cause something like it. There is a thread on this in the LCD section of AVS (for the 409x series).
I'll take some pictures of my screen and send them to you. However, I do not see any option in the TV's menu to disable the DNIe feature. So I am assuming that it is impossible to turn off on my TV. :confused: I have tried disabling the Digital Noise Reduction, but that didn't make any difference.

captaincelluloid

05-05-07, 01:50 PM

Movie sound is high synthetic anyway so talking about “lossless” makes one wonder, what is really meant by that. The sound has gone through so many mixing stages and other changes that the notion that it is lossless has little meaning. Lossless relative to what? In music, one can strive for very pure reproduction of what one would hear in the real world. Such does not exist for movies.

To Amir

Good point well put . . . . and, from a filmmaking perspective it's true whether or not some people will acknowledge it.

To Filmmixer;

Could you elaborate on how audio processing during the sound editing and mixing process affects the basic audio quality . . . . . and could you in general weigh in
on this lossy / lossless 16bit / 20 bit / 24 bit yada yada yada debate.

OBTW. nice to have to back posting again.

-30-

Roger Dressler

05-05-07, 02:15 PM

Roger,
Do you hear a large difference when comparing the sound quality of Dolby TrueHD encoding vs. DD+?
Also why don't the players (Toshiba XA2 and PS3) default to Dolby TrueHD decoding rather than DD+? Why do I manually have to go switch it from the remote every time? Large? No. As for player soundtrack preferences, it is a player design matter. If that feedback reaches the makers, they may well take it into consideration by adding a menu where user preference can be expressed.

Roger,

Do you get to listen to a variety of final products?

I work on about 300 surround systems a year. In my work I listen to the same audio sequences on every system. I am stunned to hear what sounds to me like software glitches in a fairly large number of products on the market. Some of the time it is a buzzing sound that should not be there and other times things just sound wrong. In many cases I am able to eliminate these problems by changing to or from a processing mode like THX while in other products it is always present. Add to this the LFE problems encountered today and we seem to have a mess on our hands with software QC.

What is your take on this and if you agree is Dolby doing anything to ensure the software is executed properly in the final product? Dolby confines its official evaluation to the algorithms it provides. Beyond that, we do check various aspects of the products, and often make suggestions, but it is non-binding.

Thanks Roger. I know this has been covered some in the past, but I just want to make sure I have it right. Can DD+ with greater than 640k be used on BD without going to more than 5.1 channels? --Darin No.

FilmMixer

05-05-07, 03:15 PM

Could you elaborate on how audio processing during the sound editing and mixing process affects the basic audio quality . . . . . and could you in general weigh in
on this lossy / lossless 16bit / 20 bit / 24 bit yada yada yada debate.

OBTW. nice to have to back posting again.

-30-

While it is more a matter of semantics, I disgree that film sound is anymore synthetic than music recording. I will dive into that in a minute, but one important thing to note is that while anything that is mixed goes through many processes, none of them are lossy, and none of them use perceptual coding techniques like Dolby or DTS (except for exhibition, which is going to see a change towards lossless with the advent of digital cinema)..

Except for most classical, live or live events, music goes through as much signal processing and mixing as do films. And unless there is something special done to the sound for design or creative purposes, when we mix a film we are dealing with raw tracks... i.e. the dialog goes straight from the on set recorder digitally into a workstation, with no transcoding involved... if it starts as 24bit/48k, it will stay that way until it gets to me.. there may be some level changing done inside the editorial workstation, and most of those platforms use at least 40bit precision DSP. The same goes for foley, ADR, and most sound effects... they maybe eq'ed or compreseed, etc, but for this conversation and debate, the exact same things happen in the world of music.. I can't think of any mixer that doesn't use EQ, reverbs, compression etc. when mixing music.. so as far as I see it, film sound tracks are no more synthetic than music.

The board I currently work on is capable of hadling over 300 channels of 24 bit, 48kHz audio... all processing (eq, compressing, level changes) are done with 40 bit precision DSP.. so the quesion is, for example. will raising a fader 1db inherently do something undesireable to the sound? In practice, and in my experience, no.

EQ is obviously a tool that changes the sound, more so if you are using a non phase linear one.. but once again, none of these things are as "drastic" as looking at the sound, deciding that certain frequencies that are at a lower level will be masked by louser one, and then throwing them out (that is a very simplistic way of thing about how DD and DTS work.) My pont being, that until we are at the mastering stage, film sound is as unsynthetic as music... probably my fragile ego as a film mixer saying this, but it's my opinion.

With all that being said, I find that the tracks that I mixed and heard on HD DVD and Blu Ray sound pretty good at either 640 DD, 640 DD+ and 1.5 DD+.. I haven't yet done an A/B/C against a 640DD, 1.5 DD+ and the original master yet, but I will in the near future. I am a bit of a snob in regards to this, though, and would always prefer the track not go through any kind of perceptual encoding... I am not saying I would hear the difference without being ablt to A/B the master using higher bitrates.

There is a lot of talk on these forums about video codecs and what they do to the picture. Since there is no way for us to have a lossless version of the picture on these discs, these codecs have been amamzing in practice in regards to their performance and transparancy.

But on the audio side of things, and in my personal opinion, there is no reason for content creators to not use a lossless audio codec from the beginning if space isn't a limiting factor. Sony and Disney have a great track record so far, as does Fox (even if no one can hear it yet) on the Blu Ray side of things.. and Warners has been keeping the faith on the HD DVD side of things.. And while much debate rages on as to whether or not the change from DD+ at 640 to 1.5mbps makes a huge difference, I applaud Universal and Paramount for going with the later.

One last note... anyone who is ever in the Los Angeles area is welcome to come by and check out the mixing stage, and maybe even sit in on a mix.. there is so much passion on these forums, that I always am happy to have enthusiastic visitors.. I can't always promise that the film makers will allow guests, but anyone who is around the area and wants to try and come by can shoot me a PM, and I'll always see what I can do..

nilsp

05-05-07, 04:52 PM

I love this place! :) Thanks for the info, FilmMixer!

AnthonyP

05-05-07, 05:46 PM

In DVD, the audio packets are 2048 bytes, or 16 kbits. One frame of DD is 32 ms long, so 16kb/32ms = 500kb/s. That is the maximum allowed. The highest supported rate for DD is 448 kb/s. The next higher bitrate of 512 kbps would not fit.

So how is it that DTS can have 1.5 Mbps, 3x the 500 kbps rate we calculated? DTS uses a 10ms coding frame (1/3 the duration of the DD frame). Hence, three times the bitrate. (16kb/10ms = 1.6Mbps.)

What we did with DD+ was design the syntax to support frames of 32, 16, 10, and 5 ms, thus allowing up to 3 Mbps in the HD DVD structure.

High Roger

two small questions about DD+ on HD DVD
is DD+ CBR (I guess this could apply to BD as well)? and if not is it truly VBR (i.e. can it be 1.2mbps)

If it needs 1.2mbps would that mean that it would need to use on the disk 1.5 (i.e the frame size is fixed)

the blob

05-05-07, 06:29 PM

captaincelluloid

05-05-07, 06:42 PM

"While it is more a matter of semantics, I disgree that film sound is anymore synthetic than music recording. . "

" . . . But on the audio side of things, and in my personal opinion, there is no reason for content creators to not use a lossless audio codec from the beginning if space isn't a limiting factor. Sony and Disney have a great track record so far, as does Fox (even if no one can hear it yet) on the Blu Ray side of things.. and Warners has been keeping the faith on the HD DVD side of things.. And while much debate rages on as to whether or not the change from DD+ at 640 to 1.5mbps makes a huge difference, I applaud Universal and Paramount for going with the later. . . "

Filmmixer -- thanks. Nice succinct answers nicely laid out.

RE: semantics; I agree.

I can't speak for Amir but my point on film sound being "synthetic"
was in the sense that it is made up many many component parts as opposed to an
real-time audiophile "live to two track-two mike recording" . . . . and not that there is anything wrong or superior with either . . . just different.

. . . . altho the general public and a fair number of AV-ophiles seem to be surprised
by all the layering that goes on in film mixes.

in another forum I believe you said you felt 1.5 Mbps is essentially lossless . . . .
could you elaborate a bit on that.

Also, you mentioned your console was 24 bit with 40 bit DSP processing. Could you elaborate on that as well.

Also, and with regard to older films. What is the timeline for the introduction and wide usage of these high end digital consoles -- two years -- five years -- ten years?

I think it's semantically safe to say that some years ago some film sound was at times over processed and distortions were introduced. With today's gear how much fidelity can be extracted out of all those multiple generations of 35 stripe and fullcoat.

AND thanks for the global invite to visit . . . . hope to take you up on that.

PS - sent you a PM

-30-

nataraj

05-05-07, 06:55 PM

I can't think of any mixer that doesn't use EQ, reverbs, compression etc. when mixing music.. so as far as I see it, film sound tracks are no more synthetic than music.

I'm sure many audiophile music labels don't use any of that cr*p. But you are right that most commercial "music" is just synthetic.

The board I currently work on is capable of hadling over 300 channels of 24 bit, 48kHz audio... all processing (eq, compressing, level changes) are done with 40 bit precision DSP.. so the quesion is, for example. will raising a fader 1db inherently do something undesireable to the sound? In practice, and in my experience, no.

I've always wondered about one more thing. All of us keep talking about bit depth and sampling rate. How about phase. Do the mixers make sure the phase is not screwed up ?

FilmMixer

05-05-07, 07:17 PM

To FilmMixer,

I make music for a living, albeit on a much lower budget and home recorded. When it comes to my preferred listening format, the vast majority of my music collection is on vinyl still. Maybe it's just what i grew up with but i still believe it has a richer sound. Most of the music i work on begins and ends in the digital domain so i don't have a problem with sample rates and not feeling that i'm losing anything, so i work mainly at 44.1 or 48kHz and 24 bit. It all ends up being released on vinyl too but i'm being forced to go the online sales route and i have to admit, listening on the same monitors i work on day in day out, i find it very hard to notice any perceptible difference between the final master and a 320kb mp3 of it. Still, psychologically, there's always a difference for some reason. Maybe years of working have dampened my frequency response, especially in the high end. I don't like to buy mp3's. I'll take the vinyl, or cd if there is none, just to know i'm getting the best i can but i know from my own comparisons, especially when it comes to cd's, i probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference. I can understand your position being 'if there's space, use it' because something still holds me back from listening to mp3's even at high quality. As an aside, i wonder how many people on here who are debating about not having lossless audio have gone the mp3 route which would be a contradiction...

Anyway, to my question... With the debate having raged for years over sample rates above 48kHz and whether or not the frequencies can be heard, is there not an element similar to 'if there's space, use it'? When recording real world sounds and instruments, shouldn't these be recorded at the maximum sample rate available before getting to the mixing stage? If they are, does much downsampling go on before going to the mixjng stage? I for one haven't been able to tell much difference above 48kHz but people say it's there, so doesn't recording at 48kHz brick wall those frequencies out?

It's all kind of hair splitting i know but still.. surely a 48kHz reproduction of live sound is effectively not lossless from the psychological point of view of those people who say they can tell the difference? :)

A lot all of the source material that comes to the stage is in a native 24 bit, 48kHz sample rate. Some sound effecs recordists like to record sound effects at 96k so that aliasing artifacts can be minimized when pitching things down. The major exception to this is the score... I would say a majority of scores today are recorded at 24 bit 192 or 96k, and downsampled for the stage. But the differnces in downsampling from 24 bit to 16 bit or sample rate conversion and perceptual encoding are two differnt types of processing that result in very different types of sound artifacts, and I would say for the most part it doesn't happen alot in the post process (as I said usually the score is downsampled to 48k and sometimes source music masters are only available from commercial 16 bit, 44.1k CD's.) And this brings up one other important distinction... this kind of signal manipulation occurs on only some elements, and not the entire final mixed track.

I agree that there is usually no information above 24kHz in 96k or 192k recordings. However, when recording at sample rates that high, you severyly cut down on sideband distortion, which many people feel is audible in the guise of airyness and transparency. And there are many on these forums that feel that 24 bit source is a waste, and is complete overkill for the home environment. (I completely disagree with that, btw.)

But in speaking about film mixing specifically, there are a couple of points to make. Firstly, space and resources are a concern. If we move to 96k recoding, we double the ammount of stoage space needed for the entire post production process, and cut in half the ammount of processing power available to us.... Most films that I mix have between 200-300 tracks coming in for the final (and thats whittled down from over 2 to 3 times as many in the predub stage).. Full scaled digital mixing consoles are expensive, and we don't see the immediate benefit from raising the sample rate. But it is very important for us to be in 24 bit mode, since mixing involves so much level changing, eq, dynamics etc. it is very important to leave a full 24 bit wordd around obvious reasons.

So the short answer to your quesion is we use the highest quality sample and bit rates available that still allows us to have a manageable data workflow and ample mixing resources.. sorry for the rambling reply :)

FilmMixer

05-05-07, 07:47 PM

RE: semantics; I agree.

I can't speak for Amir but my point on film sound being "synthetic"
was in the sense that it is made up many many component parts as opposed to an
real-time audiophile "live to two track-two mike recording" . . . . and not that there is anything wrong or superior with either . . . just different.

-30-

Completely agree.

in another forum I believe you said you felt 1.5 Mbps is essentially lossless . . . .
could you elaborate a bit on that.

Actually I said that is the general consensus, not mine. However, as I stated before, I have found my mixes to be very satisfying at 1.5 DD+, and I know it'll sound wishy washy, the ones at 640 DD or DD+ have been pretty satifying too.. I am not a compression expert, but my ears tell me a lot.

Also, you mentioned your console was 24 bit with 40 bit DSP processing. Could you elaborate on that as well.

In the simplest terms, you need 40 bit processing to hold onto the entire 24 bit original word when mixing... if you pull the fader down, for example, 20 db on a piece of music, and you have no head or toe room in the DSP architecture, you start mixing your source right into, and with, the systems noise floow.. the extra eight bits help retain the integrity of the original sound... this is a very simplistic explanation, and not a very good one, but I hope it answers your question...

For more in depth reading, heres a primer on the subject... this has to do with mining in a digital workstation, but it's a great starting point 48bit Mixer Models (http://akmedia.digidesign.com/support/docs/48_Bit_Mixer_26688.pdf)

Also, and with regard to older films. What is the timeline for the introduction and wide usage of these high end digital consoles -- two years -- five years -- ten years?

I would say seven to eight years, give or take some exceptions... we just closed our last analog feature stages in January,

I think it's semantically safe to say that some years ago some film sound was at times over processed and distortions were introduced. With today's gear how much fidelity can be extracted out of all those multiple generations of 35 stripe and fullcoat.

Mag sounds great... and we still make them as deliverables on some shows.. I think that most of the transfers I have gotten from mag sound pretty transparent to the masters and hold that good ol' tape saturation and soft distorion pretty well..

Our company is doing the restoration on Blade Runner right now, and I will be curious to see how these elements sound after all of these years.

FilmMixer

05-05-07, 07:53 PM

I've always wondered about one more thing. All of us keep talking about bit depth and sampling rate. How about phase. Do the mixers make sure the phase is not screwed up ?

I haven't had any phase issues for a while, but since we are working in a discrete environment, problems usually won't surface until the stereo printmaster... And using digital interconnects solved a lot of those issues, since most outside material is interfaced to our consoles in AES pairs.

As far as making sure it's not screwed up while we are mixing, we don't use phase meters for the most part, just our ears, and if theres a problem, we'll hear it, and fix it, in the 2 track printmaster :)

darinp2

05-05-07, 08:01 PM

RobertR1

05-05-07, 08:27 PM

Amir, Paidgeek, Roger and FilmMixer,

I created a thread that is hoping to get clarification on HDMI1.3 and it's relevance to the advanced audio codecs in regards to BR and HD DVD. With your collective valuable input, I'm hoping we can come to some clarity and avoid the plethora of follow up repetitive questions that'll occur as more HDMI1.3 receivers come out.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10472413#post10472413

Any other insider is also welcomed with their input!!!

Thanks,
Robert.

GmanAVS

05-05-07, 09:32 PM

Although I haven't asked you any questions FilmMixer, thank you for your contributions to this forum. :)

Gianmarco

xradman

05-05-07, 09:49 PM

Amir,

I remember when WMA codec first came out, Microsoft had an audio display which played subtracted compressed WMA and MP3 tracks from the original PCM track to demonstrate the superiority of the WMA codec. Essentially PCM track - compressed WMA track was nearly silent whereas the MP3 version had quite a bit of aural information left in it. I thought it was a very elegant way to demonstrate that you didn't lose a whole lot of information by using WMA compression.

Couldn't something similar be resurrected to demonstrate aural difference between advanced audio codecs? PCM - TrueHD or PCM - 1.5Mbps DD+ and let the listener decide how much information is lost.

Thank you,

joeydoo

05-05-07, 09:59 PM

Our company is doing the restoration on Blade Runner right now, and I will be curious to see how these elements sound after all of these years.

Cool! Is there anything you would be allowed to tell us about this? This is Ridley Scott's "definitive cut" for the 25th anniversary?

Roger Dressler

05-05-07, 10:04 PM

two small questions about DD+ on HD DVD
is DD+ CBR (I guess this could apply to BD as well)? and if not is it truly VBR (i.e. can it be 1.2mbps)

If it needs 1.2mbps would that mean that it would need to use on the disk 1.5 (i.e the frame size is fixed) DD and DD+ are both CBR.

No, there is no padding added to fill out the bitstreams or packets. No wasted space--if that is what you were asking.

amirm

05-05-07, 11:48 PM

What does it mean to have HDMI 1.3? Is there someplace we can look to see what features are mandatory and what features are optional? I have looked at the box for my PS3 and don't see any mention of HDMI 1.3 there. In the "Safety and Support" booklet on page 19 I see, "HDMI (supports Deep Color/Ver 1.3) x 1". Seems a little bit ambiguous to me as to whether that says it is HDMI 1.3 or just supports the Deep Color feature of HDMI 1.3, but I know the PS3 has been advertised as having HDMI 1.3. Is there any way to verify which version of HDMI a device includes without just trusting the literature? Is there any chance it is really HDMI 1.2-something (maybe with added Deep Color support)?

--Darin
You might find some hints here: http://www.hometheaterblog.com/hometheater/2006/08/hdmi_13_not_as.html and from the source: http://ir.siliconimage.com/ReleaseDetail.cfm?releaseid=207419

And then ask some pointed questions. Like.... what HDMI transceiver PS3 uses. 'cause if it is the SiI 9133, you kind of know the answer from the above article ;). And if someone says otherwise, ask them how they got volume parts in time for production last year :).

Then for grins, you can ask what is meant by 1.3a. Because it sure doesn't include the full capabilities....

Robert George

05-06-07, 12:06 AM

StevenZ

05-06-07, 10:54 AM

Does any insider know whether HDMI Licensing is working on logos, names, or other branding for the features of HDMI 1.3?

Even the FAQ (http://www.hdmi.org/learningcenter/hdmi_1_3_faq.asp#q7) says:
Q: How will consumers know which products have the latest implementation of HDMI 1.3?
Consumers should not look for a particular version of HDMI, but rather for the functionality that they want the device to support (Deep Color™, specific audio formats, etc.). Alternatively, consumers can look for support for these features called out in the manufacturer’s product information.I guess I'm looking to break out of the sort of "logic" that says "1.3>1.2>1.1, so it must be better". What I've quoted from the FAQ seems to put the burden on consumers to look for features, not the spec revisions that are often posted more prominently. But do you know if HDMI or any manufacturers are making an effort to clarify which of 1.3's many capabilities (read: optional features) might actually be implemented in a given product?

AnthonyP

05-06-07, 11:07 AM

DD and DD+ are both CBR.

No, there is no padding added to fill out the bitstreams or packets. No wasted space--if that is what you were asking.

Hi Roger, thanks for answering but I am not sure I understand.

Obviously some things are easier to encode then others. (i.e. a silent part in the movie while two love struck lovers gaze in each others eyes, compared to a band playing when all of a sudden a bomb goes off). If it is CBR that would mean that the silent part will take as much bandwidth as the complex part, right? So if a frame is 5ms for the hard part, it will be 5ms for the easy part as well?

Don’t mean padding, but if the divisions are 5,10,16,32ms/frame and a frame is a predetermined amount of bits then what will happen, then doesn’t it mean that there are only specific bitrates that are available?

bferr1

05-06-07, 11:35 AM

AV Doogie

05-06-07, 11:48 AM

Confused by this, as the upcoming Onkyo receivers are HDMI 1.3a, yet can decode Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD MA. Can any insider please clear up the confusion over 1.3a and 1.3b?

You may want to post in the HDMI thread...where HDMI folk hang out?

Roger Dressler

05-06-07, 01:58 PM

Hi Roger, thanks for answering but I am not sure I understand.

Obviously some things are easier to encode then others. (i.e. a silent part in the movie while two love struck lovers gaze in each others eyes, compared to a band playing when all of a sudden a bomb goes off). If it is CBR that would mean that the silent part will take as much bandwidth as the complex part, right? So if a frame is 5ms for the hard part, it will be 5ms for the easy part as well?

Don’t mean padding, but if the divisions are 5,10,16,32ms/frame and a frame is a predetermined amount of bits then what will happen, then doesn’t it mean that there are only specific bitrates that are available? The frame size does not directly dictate the bitrate--although in certain delivery formats, it limits it. Current Dolby Digital is a fixed frame of 32 ms, and it supports bitrates from 64 kbps to 640 kbps. Whatever bitrate is chosen for the program is used for the whole program. And in the case of DD+, once the frame size is chosen, it too remains fixed for the whole program.

amirm

05-06-07, 02:08 PM

The frame size does not directly dictate the bitrate--although in certain delivery formats, it limits it. Current Dolby Digital is a fixed frame of 32 ms, and it supports bitrates from 64 kbps to 640 kbps. Whatever bitrate is chosen for the program is used for the whole program. And in the case of DD+, once the frame size is chosen, it too remains fixed for the whole program.
Roger, do you not have an output buffer that is larger than 32ms? After all, the system only requires you to maintain the rate within one second, not 32ms. And if so, do you allocate different number of bits to each 32ms frame to accomodate difficulty (i.e. level of quantization) of the source...

WirelessGuru

05-06-07, 02:34 PM

Okay, I'm game...

I am interpreting the above quoted articles to say, HDMI 1.3a adds Deep Color support and HDMI 1.3b further adds the ability to transmit advanced audio codecs. The first SI chip to ship will enable HDMI 1.3a and the later chip, the 9134, will be necessary for HDMI 1.3b.

To any insider, is this interpretation correct?

To Paidgeek, what HDMI transmitter is used in the PS3?What the hell Sony? Advertise HDMI 1.3, and not tell the consumers the specifics. Are people supposed to keep buying PS3's thinking that it will eventually send lossless codecs over HDMI? Why do we have to hear this bit of information from Amir? Yeah, some may say he is playing dirty by bringing it up, but I think deception is a dirty game too.

So tell us.... can or can't the PS3 output next gen lossless bitstream audio to a receiver capable of decoding it?

RobertR1

05-06-07, 02:37 PM

ryoohki

05-06-07, 05:34 PM

What the hell Sony? Advertise HDMI 1.3, and not tell the consumers the specifics. Are people supposed to keep buying PS3's thinking that it will eventually send lossless codecs over HDMI? Why do we have to hear this bit of information from Amir? Yeah, some may say he is playing dirty by bringing it up, but I think deception is a dirty game too.

So tell us.... can or can't the PS3 output next gen lossless bitstream audio to a receiver capable of decoding it?

The problems here is not that, it's Will sony add HR and MA (DTS) to it's software decoding to PCM. If they do, then a Receiver with those codec seems pretty pointless.. since most of HDMI AMP right now doesn't PlIIx to convert 5.1 to 7.1 (the only DSP that is worth it IMHO). IF, and only IF they do then great. The Panasonic right now, updated, play the most format (TrueHD and DTS HR), will see with FW2.0 if it add something, because Sony only release major feature with Whole Version (X.X don't get major feature). Panasonic did the same thing, they add TrueHD and DTS HD HR with V2.0...

bobgpsr

05-06-07, 05:56 PM

A simple question to BD insiders; does the PS3 already have the hardware capability to output the raw bitstreams of the new advanced audio codecs (DD+, Dolby TrueHD, dts-HD HR, and dts-HD MA) on HDMI 1.3? Capable in that a firmware update could add that capability?

FilmMixer

05-06-07, 06:01 PM

pythagoras

05-06-07, 07:23 PM

Sorry, wasnt a question. Mods can delete this post without offence :o

Regards

John.

vancouver

05-06-07, 07:48 PM

There seems to be a lot of anxiety over decoding inside the players on this forum.... And Robert, I am not Roger, and am not trying to answer for him, but as far as HD DVD goes, if it is authored in advanced format, player decoding is mandatory as far as Dolby D + and True HD is concerned (according to their white papers and the HD DVD forums specs..)

I fully believe that there is nothing to gained by decoding the audio in the receiver.

IMO, HDMI 1.3 is, in regards to HD software and broadcasts, just another way for manufacturers to make people think they need to upgrade, when the current state of the art software and broadcasts will never benefit from it (i.e. Deep Color).

I actually think that one of the beauties of having the players decoded and pass as PCM is that you can upgrade your player and not be constantly chasing the more expensive pieces of gear... when it was time to upgrade last year, I knew that HDMI 1.2 was going to be as future proof as I needed.. until 4k HD comes along, as well as an entire reworking of the entire production and post production chain to support higher color space and the like, you can't go wrong with HDMI 1.2, and IMO, there is no reason to wait around for 1.3....

This issue seems to cause a lot of confusion and anxiety around here.. I really don't think it should.

you are right, but ill bite on the reason why people want their reciever/SSP to decode rather then the source. I think most people are used to recievers and SSPs doing a much better job at decoding Dolby Digital and DTS then most DVD players. This is likely because of a few reasons, at least in my personal experience.

1.) If a player decodes DD or DTS then in many cases it would get sent via the analog ouputs. In most cases the DACs are better in the reciever or SSP. In the case of using HDMI this probably doesnt matter anymore.

2.) Am I wrong or can one player/reciever decode better then another? Seems to me that my SSP is better then my past DVD players at this.

Personally I dont care if DD+ or TrueHD are decoded in the player then passed as PCM via HDMI. If that never changes I could care less as long as the quality of decoding into PCM doesnt vary from player to SSP.

awp

05-06-07, 10:44 PM

shelbygt33

05-06-07, 11:00 PM

To any MS Insider:

It is obvious that a lot of us use the 360 as our HD-DVD player. It has also been well documented that the VGA connection with the 360 can leave a bit to be desired. I do believe that the long-awaited 2007 spring update will encompass a VGA fix for the coloration issue.

Major Nelson has stated at about minute 48 of his podcast that there is no definitive date for the spring update. I'm not sure if it was internet myth or not, but me and a lot of others were expecting the update this week. The press release stated: "Beginning the week of May 7, 2007, the Xbox 360 Spring Update will provide Xbox 360 owners worldwide with access to Windows Live Messenger features..."

Does no date mean "not sure what day this week" or "not this week, sorry"?

amirm

05-06-07, 11:46 PM

To Amir,

Wasn't sure if you saw my post regarding 3x DVDs (HD content burned on an DVD+/-R thru programs such as Pinnacle studio and Ulead VideoStudio). These work on the Toshiba HD-DVD players. And I can get them to work without menus on the 360 add-on, but not with menus.

As I stated in my previous post, Pinnacle tech support said Microsoft was working an update that would fix the 360 add-on's ability to play these without issues. Do you know if that will be part of the upcoming update for the HD DVD add-on?

Thanks,
awp
I think Andy answered this before :). Namely, we have fixed a lot of bugs in the "standard content" mode of HD DVD in the 360 software. Standard mode meets old DVD menus, as opposed to HDi. Since 99% of HD DVD titles use HDi, we didn't catch these before. But in the last few months, we have fixed quite a few bugs here so the situation should be much better.

amirm

05-06-07, 11:49 PM

joeydoo

05-07-07, 01:43 AM

If it's not going to be this week for dashboard (or HD DVD update) can you just say because then I can forget about it.

Atar3on

05-07-07, 03:55 AM

MS officially has it listed on their xbox site for May 7...today:

I tried to post the url but this damn site would not let me.

It says beginning the week of May 7, and not "during".

Am i missing something here?

Yes, I believe you are. If you saw a statement which read "Beginning the week of May 7th", then you as well as many others have probably misinterpreted that as meaning "At the beginning of the week of May 7th". Their wording basically states that the week itself is the marker for when the update will become available and in no way suggests that the 7th itself is the release date.

azure_blue

05-07-07, 03:58 AM

Yes, some studios still want it. There is no denying that. And our job is to provide a platform they want to use.

.
Re region coding and "some studios still want it" like Fox and Disney; and you want to make the HD-DVD technically a platform they want to use... why wouldn't Microsoft want to make this technically possible... considering this action would encourage more studios to support HD-DVD ...

What Sony and other studios in favor of region coding want, should be enforced through their legal/contract means. After all, why have a contract if you are going to rely on technical means?
.
Do you mean US retailers should not be permitted to sell US HD movies to o/seas customers
I remember this policy early on with video tape between the UK and Australia (ie both PAL.) although I was still able to "import" UK tapes from smaller UK businesses .. it mainly just stopped local retailers importing UK material.

madshi

05-07-07, 04:40 AM

Would you please check with Toshiba regarding the XA2 on one thing. Since it has HDMI1.3, will it pass on the DTHD and DTS HD MA streams untouched to a HDMI1.3 receiver and let it handle the decoding?

I have been told (second hand) that it does but will confirm.
as far as HD DVD goes, if it is authored in advanced format, player decoding is mandatory as far as Dolby D + and True HD is concerned (according to their white papers and the HD DVD forums specs..)
This seems to contradict each other. Could we please get a clear clarification on whether bitstream output is "allowed" for HD DVD discs which are authored in advanced mode?

Thanks!

amirm

05-07-07, 09:18 AM

This seems to contradict each other. Could we please get a clear clarification on whether bitstream output is "allowed" for HD DVD discs which are authored in advanced mode?

Thanks!
Players must do what is required in the spec: that is, decode and mix all the streams in the player. But nothing stops a company from adding an override to the player that the user controls. As long as the default setting does what it is supposed to, you are good to go. In other words, the user must always have the option of playing things in a compliant way, so that the content owners don't get complaints that the player can't do something that is on the disc. But it doesn't say what you can't add.

As a trivial/silly example, the spec requires that the player output video. But if you turn off the TV, you won't see the output, yet the player is still compliant.

madshi

05-07-07, 09:24 AM

Ok, thank you, Amir! :)

amirm

05-07-07, 09:26 AM

Re region coding and "some studios still want it" like Fox and Disney; and you want to make the HD-DVD technically a platform they want to use... why wouldn't Microsoft want to make this technically possible... considering this action would encourage more studios to support HD-DVD ...
Studios may want many other things beyond region coding. But the features that we add must also align with the motivations of other companies involved. This is why AACS is a tri-industry organization. One industry wanting something, doesn't mean the other two will give it to them (in both directions). AACS refused to take on region coding. That should tell you a fair bit especially when it includes three major studios (Warner, Sony and Disney).

Again, we are very respectful of what studios ask for. They are one of the customers we have to please. But at the end of the day, there must be consensus on what they want and there isn't one around this. If we can’t get consensus in the core copy protection group for both formats, then that requires needs more work.

Do you mean US retailers should not be permitted to sell US HD movies to o/seas customers
I suspect their contract with their distributor requires them to not sell them already. And if it doesn’t, then that is a business conflict that needs to be dealt with.
I remember this policy early on with video tape between the UK and Australia (ie both PAL.) although I was still able to "import" UK tapes from smaller UK businesses .. it mainly just stopped local retailers importing UK material.
That’s right. Bigger guys probably comply with the rules better because they have more to lose….

Grubert

05-07-07, 10:38 AM

amir,

As a follow-up to the recent increase in interest regarding region encoding, I have compiled what information is available to the general public on this topic. I have posted it here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10479762&&#post10479762).

Do you consider that an accurate summary of the status of RPC for HD DVD? Or do you want to correct/augment any of it?

qz3fwd

05-07-07, 12:11 PM

paidgeek-maybe you can answer a few questions regarding BD+

Now that it is inevitable we will be seeing BD+ enabled discs in the near future, the issue of compatability with Gen 1 & 2 players must be addressed.

0. Is BD+ part of the specification the Gen 1 & 2 players meet?
1. Is BD+ supported in every player sold to date? If not what machines do/dont support it currently?
2. Will BD+ enabled discs playback transparently on early adopter machines?
3. Will firmware updates be required for players, and if so which players and when?
4. What is the first disc to hit the streets with this "feature" enabled?
5. How will consumers know the difference between and BD+ and BD- disc's in case there are compatability problems before buying and opening the disc?
6. Is the specification complete and official yet? If not, what is the target date for completion?
7. What assurances will Sony/BDA make to early adopters that they will not get screwed? (I'm sorry, but due to security breaches, your $1500 player is soon to be a boat anchor and your going to have to shell out another $1000 to continue to watch future BD titles)

Thank You.

kjack

05-07-07, 12:28 PM

I find it very ironic in this age of high quality video and lossless audio that we even have to consider something as fundamental as lip sync. Two steps forward, one step back, I guess.The video processing inside TVs has become more complex (and getting more complex every year). This results in video being delayed, creating the lip sync issue again. Of course, the lip sync correction feature of HDMI 1.3 assumes the delay info being passed back and forth is correct in the first place. :)

kjack

05-07-07, 12:36 PM

Am I wrong or can one player/reciever decode better then another? Seems to me that my SSP is better then my past DVD players at this.I think that one major difference now is that with the new audio codecs, decoding has to bit-accurate to pass conformance tests. Plus, both HD players and receivers now use audio DSPs for audio processing.

awp

05-07-07, 01:14 PM

I think Andy answered this before :). Namely, we have fixed a lot of bugs in the "standard content" mode of HD DVD in the 360 software. Standard mode meets old DVD menus, as opposed to HDi. Since 99% of HD DVD titles use HDi, we didn't catch these before. But in the last few months, we have fixed quite a few bugs here so the situation should be much better.

Amir,

Thanks for the info. I also was confused about the timing of the update. From what I understand, issues like this and other HD DVD compatibility problems would be fixed as part of the Dashboard update that's supposed to come this week.

But the audio issues would be fixed in a separate update for which no date has been specified.

Is that correct?

Thanks again.

amirm

05-07-07, 01:32 PM

Amir,

Thanks for the info. I also was confused about the timing of the update. From what I understand, issues like this and other HD DVD compatibility problems would be fixed as part of the Dashboard update that's supposed to come this week.
Actually, not quite right. There are TWO updates. One for dashboard and one for HD DVD. They are seperate releases with different dates although they are very close to each other as I type this (date wise). The dashboard fix that matters to this community the most is the VGA levels. Otherwise, most everything you are looking for is in the HD DVD update.

But the audio issues would be fixed in a separate update for which no date has been specified.

Is that correct?

Thanks again.
Correct but per above, the dates are very, very close to each other. I am on the home theater cruise right now so a bit out of loop on exact timing. If I can find out and they let me share it here, I will.

captaincelluloid

05-07-07, 01:34 PM

To FILMMIXER

Thanks again for your replies;

Apropos the concept of film sound being a mix of many sources;
what are your thoughts / techniques regarding ambience.

I am still amazed / impressed of how hundreds of separate tracks can end up sounding like they exist in the same acoustic space.

I like to call myself an Ambience Junkie -- I love wet, immersive, SUBTLE tracks.
that feel like they come from the room rather than the speakers [ I use Lexicon
Logic 7 with two sides and two rears plus the front three. ]

How is that enveloping feeling done?
How much is "real" and how much is made to "sound real" . . and how?

-- Do you use 4 [ or more ] channel live recorded ambience tracks?
-- Are there ambience synthesizers et.al.?
-- or are most sound effects recorded multi channel in actual acoustic spaces.
-- do you add ambience to the music score or is that already mixed in?
-- do you add ambience from the center dialog to other tracks?

Love to hear your thoughts.

-30-

amirm

05-07-07, 01:36 PM

DrDon

05-07-07, 03:30 PM

Newbies.. please see the first post of this thread. The rules are different, here.

Thanks

Doc

RobertR1

05-07-07, 03:34 PM

Imeldhil

05-07-07, 04:03 PM

amirm or any insider, kinda dumb question but I had to ask. Say Disney and Fox say Ok, we are going to go along with you guys, BUT only if we get region coding. Is it possible to enable region code for HD-DVD that are ONLY from a certain studio???

Other that maybe some sinder might know. is region code REALLY needed?? I mean, when I was hard into DVD, I bougth a ot of things from overseas in the ebay, and I had a region free dvd player. And normally almoust everything came out sooner or later on my market and on my region. So my point is, what's gained with region coding?? besides of the fact that you may see a movie on dvd when it's still oin the cinemas at your country. Is that the reason?? I thing is really a pintless reason! I never knew the exact true meaning for region codes, and thougth this was it, but maybe some of you can clarify.

yitzchakis1

05-07-07, 04:06 PM

Amir,

I noticed that Fox trailers for upcoming films are now on Live Marketplace. Does this mean that we can expect to see Fox titles on marketplace in the near future?

Also, killer job with Blood Diamond HD on marketplace. You guys do some amazing things with VC-1 at "only" 720p :)

Also would like to say I was amazed how well Blood Diamond looked from marketplace....I saw it this past weekend and it was very noticable (it was either this or my first HD movie over the Elite v Pro difference).....it was only around a 6 gig download, would that not fit on a normal DVD?

Before seeing this movie I questioned the PQ level you could get from HD being downloaded with the compression, but this movie clearly set an example of where downloadble HD over marketplace can go with VC-1....very impressed!

crashoveridema0

05-07-07, 06:39 PM

Is microsoft going to release a blu-ray add-on for xbox 360? if so this would really not make me happy. Cause I am a full supporter of hd dvd.

amirm

05-07-07, 06:50 PM

Is microsoft going to release a blu-ray add-on for xbox 360? if so this would really not make me happy. Cause I am a full supporter of hd dvd.
Nope. We don't have anyone thinking, dreaming, designing or anything remotely related to blu-ray on Xbox. That doesn't stop people from thinking, dreaming, etc. about us doing it. But that doesn't make it reality :).

markrubin

05-07-07, 07:09 PM

please welcome jimby_99 as our newest Insider :)

Technicolor

05-07-07, 07:20 PM

Studios may want many other things beyond region coding. But the features that we add must also align with the motivations of other companies involved. This is why AACS is a tri-industry organization. One industry wanting something, doesn't mean the other two will give it to them (in both directions). AACS refused to take on region coding. That should tell you a fair bit especially when it includes three major studios (Warner, Sony and Disney).

Amir:

Forgive me, but now I got slightly confused...
AACS refused to take on region coding... so HD DVD has no region coding.
But there's also AACS on Blu-ray, right?... and Blu-ray does have region coding.

What's the difference? Why Fox and Disney got on BD something they could not get on HD DVD?

Or plus: what did HD DVD got in return for losing Fox and Disney? And I ask this because we all talk about how important studio support is since many people here miss it (not me at this point, by the way).

Now... another question of a whole different nature:

About HD DVD Double Layer 34Gb... is it any different than DL30 that it will require anything new in terms of replication and players capabilities? I ask this because CDs have evolved a lot without me having to buy another player. The Beatles' album "1" has a few minutes more than a CD can hold... and it played fine everywhere. CD-Rs used to come in 650Mb... and later started to offer 700Mb but I never needed to upgrade my recorder...

Can you elaborate on this? I feel that, given the very efficient job we see on HD DVD titles due to the use of advanced codecs like VC-1 (and it tends to get even more efficient as time goes by), these additional 4Gb can virtually make the DL disc an unbeatable choice against... you know... the other guy with 50... :p

Thanks for your time.

Paul_Seng

05-07-07, 07:20 PM

please welcome jimby_99 as our newest Insider :)
Mark, can you update your first post as to jimby_99's affiliation? thanks

markrubin

05-07-07, 09:04 PM

Mark, can you update your first post as to jimby_99's affiliation? thanks

yup: working on that

Roger Dressler

05-07-07, 09:53 PM

Roger, do you not have an output buffer that is larger than 32ms? No. 6-block frames are the max for DD or DD+, and that's 32 ms. About the same ballpark for MP3 and AAC, as I recall. DTS is even shorter (10 ms) What is it for WMA?

After all, the system only requires you to maintain the rate within one second, not 32ms.? DD was designed before DVD, if that is the system to which you refer, and the 32 ms frame size was chosen based on optimizing coding gain and minimizing the input buffer structure of the decoder so as to work in low cost DSPs. Also, a 1-sec restart interval would not make it easy to do trick play, or recover quickly after an error.

And if so, do you allocate different number of bits to each 32ms frame to accomodate difficulty (i.e. level of quantization) of the source? No. That would not be CBR. The bitrate per block can vary signficantly, though.

amirm

05-07-07, 09:54 PM

Amir:

Forgive me, but now I got slightly confused...
AACS refused to take on region coding... so HD DVD has no region coding.
But there's also AACS on Blu-ray, right?... and Blu-ray does have region coding.

What's the difference? Why Fox and Disney got on BD something they could not get on HD DVD?
The BDA in this case decided to add region coding as part of their spec and licensing. This is the case of some of the same companies saying NO in one forum, but saying yes in another. Putting that aside, the situation gets messy when two organizations have juristiction over some set of copy protection technologies.

Or plus: what did HD DVD got in return for losing Fox and Disney? And I ask this because we all talk about how important studio support is since many people here miss it (not me at this point, by the way).
Well, I can assure you that the world at large does not know why Fox and Disney are publishing in BD format. You know the public statements, but that is it. As with the Titanic....

About HD DVD Double Layer 34Gb... is it any different than DL30 that it will require anything new in terms of replication and players capabilities? I ask this because CDs have evolved a lot without me having to buy another player. The Beatles' album "1" has a few minutes more than a CD can hold... and it played fine everywhere. CD-Rs used to come in 650Mb... and later started to offer 700Mb but I never needed to upgrade my recorder...
Your analogy is correct in that DL-34 is very close to DL-30 so other than changing the spec to accomodate it, it should not be a big deal to incorporate it. Of course, people still need to noodle on it and test it before certification.

Can you elaborate on this? I feel that, given the very efficient job we see on HD DVD titles due to the use of advanced codecs like VC-1 (and it tends to get even more efficient as time goes by), these additional 4Gb can virtually make the DL disc an unbeatable choice against... you know... the other guy with 50... :p

Thanks for your time.
No doubt, if it comes for free, no one will refuse it :). At the same time, the marketing value of 2-disc sets is so high than even with extra capacity, folks may be liable to not use it anyway.

Roger Dressler

05-07-07, 09:56 PM

Roger,

Is it true that HD DVD and BR discs authored in the "advanced" format, must decode the audio in the player and cannot pass the encoded stream onto a receiver and let the receiver do the decoding?

Thanks,
Robert.For HD DVD only is that the case. For BD, the players apparently have the option of streaming the soundtracks directly, hence bypassing the player's internal decoder and interactive mixer. This is my understanding.

RobertR1

05-07-07, 10:04 PM

For HD DVD only is that the case. For BD, the players apparently have the option of streaming the soundtracks directly, hence bypassing the player's internal decoder and interactive mixer. This is my understanding.

Thanks for the reply Roger! So in BD, I assume if the interactive mixer is bypassed, you only get the main soundtrack and miss out on the interactivity audio?

Also, once BD titles are authored in "advanced" mode will they maintain this option or end up like HD DVD where bypass is not allowed?

BTW, I really appreciate your time on this as I believe that this is a very confusing matter to a lot of us and hopefully all the insiders can collaborate on and provide a strong guideline going forward.

Thanks again,
Robert.

Roger Dressler

05-07-07, 10:11 PM

Players must do what is required in the spec: that is, decode and mix all the streams in the player. But nothing stops a company from adding an override to the player that the user controls. As long as the default setting does what it is supposed to, you are good to go. In other words, the user must always have the option of playing things in a compliant way, so that the content owners don't get complaints that the player can't do something that is on the disc. But it doesn't say what you can't add. I would be very surprised if this were the case. That would mean that it would be permissible for a player maker to add, for example, a "go direct to the movie" button on the remote, thus bypassing the trailers, FBI screens, all that stuff, as long as the player could also play those contents as designed. But that is not the case, from what we have found in recent discussions at WG-1. Check with Kilroy, if you doubt me.

As a trivial/silly example, the spec requires that the player output video. But if you turn off the TV, you won't see the output, yet the player is still compliant. This is not a good example. The player is still compliant since it is still outputting video, and has not been modified in any way by the manufacturer.

Roger Dressler

05-07-07, 10:18 PM

Thanks for the reply Roger! So in BD, I assume if the interactive mixer is bypassed, you only get the main soundtrack and miss out on the interactivity audio?

Also, once BD titles are authored in "advanced" mode will they maintain this option or end up like HD DVD where bypass is not allowed? Yes, by definition, when the mixer is bypassed, there can be no interactivity. This is true for both BD and HD DVD alike.

My understanding is that some BD titles already use basic forms of interactive audio--menu sounds and the like, and it is my understanding that the BD format does not have a mode where content makers can prevent direct bitstreaming of the soundtrack, as they do in HD DVD. The formats are not identical in this respect.

benwaggoner

05-07-07, 10:39 PM

No. That would not be CBR. The bitrate per block can vary signficantly, though.
Interesting. Over what window does the data rate average out?

FilmMixer

05-07-07, 11:30 PM

To FILMMIXER

Apropos the concept of film sound being a mix of many sources;
what are your thoughts / techniques regarding ambience.

I am still amazed / impressed of how hundreds of separate tracks can end up sounding like they exist in the same acoustic space.

How is that enveloping feeling done?
How much is "real" and how much is made to "sound real" . . and how?

-- Do you use 4 [ or more ] channel live recorded ambience tracks?
-- Are there ambience synthesizers et.al.?
-- or are most sound effects recorded multi channel in actual acoustic spaces.
-- do you add ambience to the music score or is that already mixed in?
-- do you add ambience from the center dialog to other tracks?

Love to hear your thoughts.

-30-

I know this isn't specific to the HDTV software discussion, but I will answer the question.

Like anything in film, there are many ways to achieve this.... but first the general answers to your questions.

It is pretty rare to have more than two channels of any given source, music excluded.

This is for a number of reasons, but more practically, it is earier to give us a mono or stereo source and let us do the rest... and multichannel micing is hard enough in a controlled environment, let alone out in the real world... sometime we get quad ambiences (airs, winds, ets..) but that is very rare.

So then how do we do it with all of these mono or stereo sources?

The first thing is panning and layering... lets say for a given scene in a park, you might have 2 stereo tracks of air, 2 stereo tracks of birsts, 2 stero tracks of distant traffic.. maybe you will pan the first air track L R LR RR, and the second one in the surrounds, and then move them around as the scene plays... maybe change the eq over time so the ears have something to grab onto... lots of stuff like that.. that's how we achieve spaciousness with multiple sounds.

As far as ambience, we use devices called digital reverber ation units, or reverbs. These devices are programable to many different spaces and are fully adjustable... so if we can apply reverbs of different ammoount to all of the sounds to simulate an evnironment.

Sometimes the sound designers will record in ambient spaces, but once again, sometimes it is better for us to have the dry sounds so we have control over the ammount of ambience on a given sound. And sometimes, when you have the time and money, you can take the cut sounds and then play them back over a loudspeaker are re record them in that environment.... this was how almost all of the ambiences for "Walk The Lines" music was done.. and it sounded amazing. This is sometimes called "worldizing."

Music scores for the most part don't have any added reverb added onto them... my stage is right next to our scoring stage, which can hold up to 110 pieces.. and the reverb time of the room is adjustable with movable baffles and wall plates.. So in most cases, the score ambience you hear comes from the actual recording space. If it is a mostly synth score, I will add some reverb and try and get it to sound as natural as possible.. source music is another story, and those are ususally two track masters and I have to do all of the panning, eq and reverb to make them sound like they are in the space.. thats a whole other discussion :)

As far as your last question, I think you speaking about any of the natural sound that is part of the recorded dialog track.. of so than, no, we usually don't have enough of that sound clean with out dialog to fill out and use as ambience. We work hard to match the effects tracks to the dialog, and that can be really tough somtimes..

I prepared a scene that is on the DVD of "Monster" in the Special Features section which lets you listen to all of the food groups seperately... it isn't a heavy dialog scene, but if you listen to the center of that selection you can see how much else was added into that one scene, and there are some cool reverbs for ambience and effects in there.. and that was a low budget film :)

grahamlaws

05-08-07, 12:12 PM

Corellianrogue

05-08-07, 02:01 PM

Dear Amir,

Thank you for the excellent information, apologies if these questions have already been answered elsewhere:

1. I have a Samsung M86 HDTV, and it does not accept the 1920x1080 output over VGA from the Xbox, do you know if this is resolved in the Spring 2007 update?

2. Why is HD DVD playback limited to 1080i via component?

3. Why is DVD playback limited to 480p via component?

4. Does the Xbox Elite provide DVD upscaling to 1080p over HDMI?

Kind Regards

Graham Laws

You just posted the questions I came here to post. Thanks! :D The only ones you missed are:

5. When is the Elite coming out in the UK?

6. Are there going to be HDMI cables coming out for the original Xbox360 so that I don't actually have to buy an Elite to to get HD DVDs running in 1080p on the off chance that there's no VGA fix or that it doesn't work for the Samsung M87 (same as the M86)? (Also I want to try out the M87's Movie Plus on HD DVDs and you can't activate that in VGA mode for some reason. :confused: )

RobertR1

05-08-07, 02:12 PM

jimby_99,

First of all, thank you for participating on the forum on behalf of Universal. :)

My question is, what created the large amount of playback issues with Childern of Men and what is being done to ensure such does not occur going forward?

Also, why is Universal only using DD+ at 1.5mbps and no TruHD?

In closing, Universal's support for HD DVD has been great and I've enjoyed the quality, both video and audio, on the 20+ Universal titles I own. Keep up the good work!

Thanks,
Robert.

Rob Tomlin

05-08-07, 02:25 PM

jimby_99,

First of all, thank you for participating on the forum on behalf of Universal. :)

Universal Music Group.

EWL5

05-08-07, 02:40 PM

jimby_99,

With the failure of SACD and DVD-Audio in replacing CD's, are there any plans for Universal to put music on any of the hi-def disc formats as DolbyTrueHD or DTS-HD Master Audio tracks?

With the popularity of DVD music videos, I guess there really isn't a market for audiophile music-only hi-def discs, is there?

2Channel

05-08-07, 02:40 PM

A question for Roger. There has been some discussion on another thread regarding the efficiency of DD on BD vs. DD+ on HD-DVD. The point being made is that you can't compare BD's DD 640Kbps directly to HD-DVDs DD+ 1.5Mbps because the DD+ encode is less efficient. I'm curious to know if there are any efficency differences between the two. If so, can you quantify the difference so it is easier to compare?

For example, if the efficiency of DD 640K is 1X, would DD+ 1.5M be .75X (25% less efficient)? As a follow up question, what is the next DD+ bit rate down from 1.5M? Is it 768K or 640K? and what would would their efficiency on HD-DVD be compared to BD using DD 640K?

captaincelluloid

05-08-07, 04:48 PM

To FILMMIXER
RE: A question of ambience
I know this isn't specific to the HDTV software discussion, but I will answer the question.
I would beg to differ and say again how much I welcome your perspective -- how content is CREATED is quite germaine to the subject . . . . actually, it really IS the subject. Sometimes this truly wonderful forum can forget that everything is in the service of reproducing content.

I had no idea that those wonderful 360 Soundfields were created from
stereo and mono sources. Cool.

NEW QUESTION -- perhaps more of a playback / broadcast hardware issue.

On some 5.1 HDTV broadcasts all I get from the rear channels is just the foley and babble / walla tracks. No music ambience, no effects, no nothing.
Mostly on CBS shows most recently SHARK.

I'm guessing this is a local encoder issue . . . . but how does that happen?
Phase problems? I can't imagine it's a creative choice. Is there anything I can do with my gear -- Lexicon MC-1 -- to correct it?

Have you ever noticed this? Has anyone ever done that deliberately?

It is pretty rare to have more than two channels of any given source, music excluded.

This is for a number of reasons, but more practically, it is earier to give us a mono or stereo source and let us do the rest... and multichannel micing is hard enough in a controlled environment, let alone out in the real world... sometime we get quad ambiences (airs, winds, ets..) but that is very rare.

So then how do we do it with all of these mono or stereo sources?

The first thing is panning and layering... lets say for a given scene in a park, you might have 2 stereo tracks of air, 2 stereo tracks of birsts, 2 stero tracks of distant traffic.. maybe you will pan the first air track L R LR RR, and the second one in the surrounds, and then move them around as the scene plays... maybe change the eq over time so the ears have something to grab onto... lots of stuff like that.. that's how we achieve spaciousness with multiple sounds.

As far as ambience, we use devices called digital reverber ation units, or reverbs. These devices are programable to many different spaces and are fully adjustable... so if we can apply reverbs of different ammoount to all of the sounds to simulate an evnironment.

Sometimes the sound designers will record in ambient spaces, but once again, sometimes it is better for us to have the dry sounds so we have control over the ammount of ambience on a given sound. And sometimes, when you have the time and money, you can take the cut sounds and then play them back over a loudspeaker are re record them in that environment.... this was how almost all of the ambiences for "Walk The Lines" music was done.. and it sounded amazing. This is sometimes called "worldizing."

Music scores for the most part don't have any added reverb added onto them... my stage is right next to our scoring stage, which can hold up to 110 pieces.. and the reverb time of the room is adjustable with movable baffles and wall plates.. So in most cases, the score ambience you hear comes from the actual recording space. If it is a mostly synth score, I will add some reverb and try and get it to sound as natural as possible.. source music is another story, and those are ususally two track masters and I have to do all of the panning, eq and reverb to make them sound like they are in the space.. thats a whole other discussion :)

As far as your last question, I think you speaking about any of the natural sound that is part of the recorded dialog track.. of so than, no, we usually don't have enough of that sound clean with out dialog to fill out and use as ambience. We work hard to match the effects tracks to the dialog, and that can be really tough somtimes..

I prepared a scene that is on the DVD of "Monster" in the Special Features section which lets you listen to all of the food groups seperately... it isn't a heavy dialog scene, but if you listen to the center of that selection you can see how much else was added into that one scene, and there are some cool reverbs for ambience and effects in there.. and that was a low budget film :)

Roger Dressler

05-08-07, 08:03 PM

Interesting. Over what window does the data rate average out? The coding frame.

benwaggoner

05-08-07, 08:11 PM

The coding frame.
And how long is that?

markrubin

05-08-07, 08:30 PM

Greetings

The Insiders list (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9265013&&#post9265013) in the top thread has been updated: any corrections please PM me

Are you an Insider who wants to post here? please PM me if you are not on the list: we would love to add more

Thanks

bferr1

05-08-07, 08:45 PM

jimby_99, please tell me that U2 concert BDs for Vertigo and Elevation tours are in the works and that they have uncompressed PCM sound!

amirm

05-08-07, 09:27 PM

Quick note you all. I, along with a few other insiders (i.e. Don) are here at the Home Theater Cruise. Good news is that this is a new ship and has wireless in most of the ship. Bad news is that it costs $0.33 for every minute! So this message will cost me a $1 or more to type!

I will try to check once in a while and answer anything urgent. Otherwise, I appreciate you all hanging in there while we enjoy talking about all things HighDef at the cruise! :).

One thing though. I have exchanged email with Roger regarding his understanding of bypass ability for HD DVD. It is not only allowed, but the spec allows the HDi application to query that, and turn off features which may not work effectively in that mode (e.g. Picture in Picture). I do see where his confusion came from but it is all cleared. So to the extent people want such pass through modes, player companies can implement them.

Dazog

05-08-07, 09:30 PM

Amirm now that the dash update is scheduled for tomorrow.

Can the countdown clock begin on the HD-DVD update :)

BenDover

05-08-07, 09:33 PM

hellokeith

05-09-07, 12:33 AM

dolby212

05-09-07, 02:06 AM

Amirm
will the 360 be able to pass through WMA pro 7.1 surround audio with the 2007 update

dolby212

05-09-07, 04:09 AM

Amirm,
Never mind on my last post I found the answer. Thanks anyway, Oh well, guess i'll still need to use my computer for watching wmv hd files with wma pro audio.

RobertStern

05-09-07, 04:10 AM

So how would anyone get to listen to the DTS-HD Master Audio tracks on Blu-Ray discs if their is no player that can decode this format or pass the un-decoded track to a receiver to be decoded??

Anyone? As I can see this is something will will all be waiting for until 3rd generation players become available.

Peter M

05-09-07, 04:47 AM

My first question to the insiders ... very exciting ... must make it a good one ...

How's the beer on the ship ? :D

but seriously ... when will HD-DVD be arriving in the UAE ?

Samsung and Sony are doing a pretty good job of selling BR ... HD-DVD seems to be MIA !! :(

rdjam

05-09-07, 06:04 AM

To all insiders,

Recent news has Comcast (cable TV provider) in talks with Hollywood on same-day releases of movies to theater and cable TV (likely PPV).

Assuming this has more than just a hair's width chance of ever taking place, and it was expanded to same day release of HD media (BD / HD DVD):

How would same day release on HD media impact your respective business and/or technical area?
I second this question.

http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20060228/1218252.shtml

But would this be more likely to be Standard Def than Hidef?

Also, could this be day and date with the DVD releases, as this previous article outlines? http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/18/technology/18cable.html?ex=1324098000&en=15fbafbbc5db986a&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

Also, could anyone comment on whether these approaches would really mean "tightening the release windows", as outlined by Disney's Iger in 2005? And might this "tightening" allow less time for piracy to eat into studio profits?

http://www.slate.com/id/2125746/

Kirium

05-09-07, 06:52 AM

When is the HD DVD audio update coming?

Cheers,

Dylan

tanukibear

05-09-07, 06:56 AM

amirm,

I was going to just send this as a Private Message, but I'm not able to.

Firstly, this message isn't urgent. Don't bother to reply until you come back from your cruise there, and spare yourself the bandwidth time and money until you come back if you choose to reply to me.

About a month and half ago, or maybe two months ago, I asked if the 1920x1080 thing over VGA would be resolved with the Spring Update for those of us still having problems with our TV/Monitor and 360 setup. You offered that I could bother you about it if it didn't get fixed with the update, and I've decided to take you up on that offer.

The picture is stretched to hell with the left side of the screen getting SERIOUSLY cut off, and it seems to be that way with the two settings it gives me. Selecting "No, try again" makes it less pronounced, but still unusable either way. My BenQ FP241W correctly reports it as 1920x1080 at 60Hz. either way, but I'm reverting back to a lower resolution because 1920x1080 is not working. At all.

My PC and my Mac can do that exact resolution with this monitor (and my PS3 too, but that's not interfacing through VGA...), but my 360 cannot. Honestly, what are my options at this point? Is there any chance whatsoever for a fourth patch-up?

grahamlaws

05-09-07, 07:20 AM

Hi Amir,

I have the Samsung M86 (LE40M86BD), after today's update, selecting 1920x1080 gives me a picture very briefly (about 2/3 secs) before the TV rejects it. Prior to today's update it did not display at all.

The handbook gives the following spec:

Resolution: 1920x1080
H Freq: 66.587 kHz
V Freq: 59.934 kHz
Pixel Clock Freq: 138.500 MHz

I have the HD DVD drive and wish to watch movies at 1080p. Any advice?

Regards

Graham

Character_Zero

05-09-07, 07:37 AM

Can someone explain the new VGA display modes in the video setup on the 360? There is Standard, Intermediate, and Expanded.

Yumbo

05-09-07, 07:45 AM

Hi,

Relentless Enemies and HDScape Sampler still don't work after today's update.
Which update will fix this?
Do I start advising people to buy a Toshiba instead of the add-on?

kornesque

05-09-07, 07:51 AM

amir and ben, please convey my thanks to the update team. the VGA update has rendered my display flawless. as for the ability to run VC1 on all 3 cores...i tested 2 different 18mbps (avg) vc1+wma .wmv files thru WMP and they played perfectly. this combined with the VGA fix makes a very capable media player in my eyes. tell them thanks for listening to the customers, and implementing meaningful fixes/features. MS done gone pimped my ride. ;)

and sorry to hear about those who are still having VGA issues, i don't mean to gloat in the midst of your agony. for what its worth, i'm running on a westy LVM37W3 - quite versatile. hope your troubles are taken care of.

thanks again!

markrubin

05-09-07, 07:53 AM

Please welcome RDoherty as our newest Insider

Please keep the requests coming :)

Grubert

05-09-07, 08:07 AM

but seriously ... when will HD-DVD be arriving in the UAE ?

Samsung and Sony are doing a pretty good job of selling BR ... HD-DVD seems to be MIA !! :(

If I may chime in:

Actually, there's a big trade show coming up in Dubai this weekend where HD DVD is featured:

http://www.ameinfo.com/118961.html

alfbinet

05-09-07, 08:35 AM

Is this player firmware upgradeable for HD-MA?

xbracerx

05-09-07, 08:40 AM

Amir-

Now that the Xbox 360 spring dashboard update has been released to the wild, can you give us a date for the HD-DVD update? Can we assume that since you're on a cruise that Microsoft is eagerly awaiting your return before releasing it?

many thanks

Eternal_Sunshine

05-09-07, 09:04 AM

It is accurate to say that I don't have much concrete information on the timing of feature releases from SCEI. Even so, I encourage members to continue asking questions on PS3 matters as I can forward them to the appropriate persons in SCEI.

paidgeek,

considering the importance of the PS3 for Blu-ray, maybe you could convince an insider from SCEI to post here on avsforum? There are a lot of questions (24p, DTS-HD MA decoding, bitstream via HDMI, DVD upconverting etc. etc.) that are currently being left unanswered.

As Microsoft (5 insiders and counting) so clearly understands, this forum is a great way to communicate with your customers and show confidence in your product. Also, there seems to be a new marketing push planned for the PS3 with more of an emphasis on it's Blu-ray capabilities (http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Sony/PlayStation_3/High-Def_Gaming/High-Def_Disc_Marketing/Sony_Touts_Blu-ray_Capabilities_in_New_PlayStation_3_Marketing_Push/615). Posting in the insiders thread on avsforum would, I believe, complement this effort.

In any case, please keep up the good work. I like your posting style a lot, very factual and to the point.

Dennis1951

05-09-07, 09:24 AM

jimby_99
name withheld upon request
VP, Advanced Technology for Universal Music Group
Production/Release supervisor of Blu-ray, HD DVD & DVD titles
Music/Video Industry Insider

I noticed that part of your responsibilities are production/release of Blu-ray. There is a thread located here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=845226 stating that Universal is going neutral by the end of the year. Are these statements true,if they are, when is Universal going to be releasing Blu-ray DVDs?

Thank You

RobertR1

05-09-07, 10:20 AM

Amir,

Hate to break your piggy bank :) but if you would please comment on the "universal going neutral" story from Pioneer http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=845226 it'd be much appreciated.

Thanks,
Robert.

yitzchakis1

05-09-07, 10:45 AM

Can someone explain the new VGA display modes in the video setup on the 360? There is Standard, Intermediate, and Expanded.

I have the same question and thought I would note that I am running my Elite over HDMI and given the same option as stated above. I am very curious what it is. There is even a warning that if the right one is not selected it could severly hurt your pq, etc. Could this have anything to do with the prior green/purple issue?

BTW please pass my congratulations to the team at XBOX. This spring update has corrected the green/purple HDMI issue :)

markrubin

05-09-07, 12:36 PM

mod

this thread is for Questions to Insiders only please

Insiders thread rules (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9265013&&#post9265013)

captaincelluloid

05-09-07, 12:54 PM

To FILMMIXER

A quick one; was is the reason for using three VERY tightly spaced mics for
recording voices for animated films.

I see this all the time in videos from PIXAR . . like this one;

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=81492&stc=1

thanks,

-30-

ZippyBongHits

05-09-07, 01:09 PM

Amir:

2 questions for you. One of them a detailed answer would be great.

Question 1:

What is the difference between Standard, intermediate and "expanded" on the VGA output settings for the 360/HD-DVD combo unit?

I assume

A. Standard ='s 7.5 IRE?
B. Intermeidate ='s XX IRE?
C. Expanded ='s 0 IRE??

Clarification here in DETAIL would be great!

2. When is the HD-DVD update going to happen in reality. 1 week, 2 weeks? Longer?

thanks

Imeldhil

05-09-07, 04:20 PM

Can someone explain the new VGA display modes in the video setup on the 360? There is Standard, Intermediate, and Expanded.

Yeah, an also, besides of this, I was told, or at least I belived that the fix would make the vga connection kinda like a PC, meaning that you'd be able to control Gamma, hue, saturation of colour (R B G level) brigthness, etc, just like for example the setup you have from a Nvidia video card, and we get is this??

I mean, now at least doesn't looked as washed out, but still, I finde it that i get, for exmaple a heck a definition and a greant PQ from te comonent in say, AEon Flux (the greens look INCREDIBLE) but from the VGA I got them all wrong, after the update, well, it loooks bettter when I put them on expanded, but still, not FULLY happy about it. So, any insider, , there is no way on getting to control those type of things from the dashboard at all????????????

Thanks

cyberbri

05-09-07, 04:26 PM

Yeah, an also, besides of this, I was told, or at least I belived that the fix would make the vga connection kinda like a PC, meaning that you'd be able to control Gamma, hue, saturation of colour (R B G level) brigthness, etc, just like for example the setup you have from a Nvidia video card, and we get is this??

I mean, now at least doesn't looked as washed out, but still, I finde it that i get, for exmaple a heck a definition and a greant PQ from te comonent in say, AEon Flux (the greens look INCREDIBLE) but from the VGA I got them all wrong, after the update, well, it loooks bettter when I put them on expanded, but still, not FULLY happy about it. So, any insider, , there is no way on getting to control those type of things from the dashboard at all????????????

Thanks

We are discussing this issue here in this post and below:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10500367&&#post10500367

The update gave the option to use PC levels or Video levels, basically. All other adjustments (hue, color, etc.) need to be made on your display itself, as it would be your display not displaying the signal properly.

ryanmcv

05-09-07, 04:32 PM

Amir,

The Spring Update seemed to fix the ghosting issues I was having with my Elite's HDMI output and my Samsung LN-S3251D. I set the "Reference Level" setting to Expanded, and all the ghosting went away.

I don't know what exactly these reference levels do, but I do know that it fixed the ghosting issues!

cyberbri

05-09-07, 04:52 PM

ryan,

See my post directly above yours, and the link in it, if you want to know what the "Reference Levels" are.

Yaponvezos

05-09-07, 05:11 PM

Hello, Amir. I just downloaded the spring dashboard update and there appear to be some minor issues. I loaded a few HD trailers from Apple's website and tried to play them. First I was asked to download an additional update, one that the system assured me I had already downloaded. I opted to download the update once more. After that some trailers work but with some stuttering while others won't work at all.

Any idea about what makes some playable while others unplayable? i don't know if it helps but I get status code: 69-02-C00D36C4.

Just so I don't give off the wrong impression, overall you did a great job with the update. And as silly as that may sound, I sooooooooo love that when I reach the end of a list I can push "down" once more and get to the top of the list. Not being able to do so was really annoying. For me at least.

Other then that, I know I have mentioned the issue before, but I would like to bring up the matter of subtitle downloads for HD DVD once more. I don't know if it's a difficult feat to pull off but I suspect it's not worth losing sales over it.

There is an online petition (http://www.**************.com/grsubs/petition.html) from Greek consumers asking for the inclusion of greek subtitles in both Blu-ray Discs and HD DVDs. I might be a supporter of only the latter format but it is a legitimate request from Greek consumers. I suppose the same applies for consumers of other nationalities as well. With all those gigabytes going around I would have thought we would get a sea of subtitle options. After all they have to be way cheaper than dubs to produce.

One more thing. Is there any chance for Greece (or any other country that actually could not care less for dubbing in its native language) to not get the versions other countries get? For example I understand that quite a few people in Germany, Spain, France etc really care for dubbing. The thing is the discs are delayed for the whole european market so that these countries get their dub. Why do some countries have to wait for something they don't really care about? And why should they get less extras just so all the dubs that they don't care about make it in the disc?

Again thank you for everyone's time and especially Amir that has to feel more often than not that answering in this thread is like a full time job. I am not bashing anyone or anything. I just feel that subtitling is not that hard to pull off.

I can even volunteer for the translations for heaven's sake!

BioSehnsucht

05-09-07, 05:43 PM

Amir, what happened to being able to choose different timings for 1080p? There doesn't seem to be any way to change it, I'm still getting the left edge of the screen chopped off on my Viewsonic monitor (VGA cable)..

I am loving the PC output levels tho.

edit: I see I'm blind, all I had to do to get the other timing was say "No, try again".

This almost works for me, but I'm still getting a teensy weensy bit of wrap-around on my Viewsonic PS790 monitor, but then again I'm totally maxing out its controls squeezing 1080p onto it (native rez is like 1600x1280 in 4:3). I hve to go max V-squeeze and then play with Bow etc to get it straightened out again..

I think the horizontal blanking just needs to be a hair longer to shoehorn this into my Viewsonic. Hopefully it'll work out on the CRT projector where it has better geometry controls and I can play with the blanking directly.

benwaggoner

05-09-07, 05:49 PM

Yaponvezos

05-09-07, 06:17 PM

The PM is on its way.

Again, thank you in advance for your time.

Roger Dressler

05-09-07, 06:44 PM

And how long is that? For DD, 32 ms. For DD+, it can be 32, 16, 10, or 5 ms.

markrubin

05-09-07, 06:59 PM

Please welcome Roger Dressler Director, Business Development, Dolby Laboratories as an Insider

Yaponvezos

05-09-07, 07:03 PM

Welcome Mr. Dressler and thank you for taking the time with this board. :)

dobyblue

05-09-07, 07:42 PM

But on the audio side of things, and in my personal opinion, there is no reason for content creators to not use a lossless audio codec from the beginning if space isn't a limiting factor.

Welcome to the boards FilmMixer, great to have you here.

I did have a question, but this quote answered it. I applaud your personal opinion as it is also mine.

dobyblue

05-09-07, 07:55 PM

For DD, 32 ms. For DD+, it can be 32, 16, 10, or 5 ms.

Hi Roger - welcome to the boards.

Can you confirm what's been going on with Dolby TrueHD as pertains to Blu-ray.
Have there been numerous changes in the specs or implementation since last year? Is TrueHD on Blu-ray now "better" than it was last June and why?
I feel that over the next year we will see studios like Paramount, Sony, Disney and Warner move to TrueHD on Blu-ray or DTS-HD MA as more and more players and receivers that are compatible with the format are released.

Also are you able to shed any light on whether or not the PS3 can pass TrueHD natively to a TrueHD receiver? Is this something that's hardware related and requires a new chipset, or because there would be no decoding in this manner is it something that would be a software upgrade, if anything is needed at all.

Thanks.

Andy Pennell

05-09-07, 08:21 PM

Hi,

Relentless Enemies and HDScape Sampler still don't work after today's update.
Which update will fix this?
Do I start advising people to buy a Toshiba instead of the add-on?

As Amir has said umpteen times, there are TWO Xbox updates: one for the flash, which happened at 2am today, and one for the HD DVD player, which has not happened yet. The flash update has the VGA level option which is of interest to readers of this forum, but no changes to the HD DVD engine: you need the other update for that, which is Coming Soon. Please, no more questions as to when exactly. If I could predict the future that accurately, I'd be buying lottery tickets :)

AlienRei

05-09-07, 09:51 PM

About a month and half ago, or maybe two months ago, I asked if the 1920x1080 thing over VGA would be resolved with the Spring Update for those of us still having problems with our TV/Monitor and 360 setup. You offered that I could bother you about it if it didn't get fixed with the update, and I've decided to take you up on that offer.

The picture is stretched to hell with the left side of the screen getting SERIOUSLY cut off, and it seems to be that way with the two settings it gives me. Selecting "No, try again" makes it less pronounced, but still unusable either way. My BenQ FP241W correctly reports it as 1920x1080 at 60Hz. either way, but I'm reverting back to a lower resolution because 1920x1080 is not working. At all.

My PC and my Mac can do that exact resolution with this monitor (and my PS3 too, but that's not interfacing through VGA...), but my 360 cannot. Honestly, what are my options at this point? Is there any chance whatsoever for a fourth patch-up?

I have exactly the same problem with my Samsung 244T LCD display.

Is it possible to get an update on this issue?

Thank you.
Alan

joeydoo

05-09-07, 10:11 PM

As Amir has said umpteen times, there are TWO Xbox updates: one for the flash, which happened at 2am today, and one for the HD DVD player, which has not happened yet. The flash update has the VGA level option which is of interest to readers of this forum, but no changes to the HD DVD engine: you need the other update for that, which is Coming Soon. Please, no more questions as to when exactly. If I could predict the future that accurately, I'd be buying lottery tickets :)

Hi Andy.
I don't think anyone wants exactly dates. Amir has said that the updates are "very very close" to one another. Most people expected that to mean this week. He also said that it will be available before the Matrix boxsets come out on the 22nd. That would suggest that it's extremely close to completion at this point.
Surely it wouldn't be too much of a push for your good selves to state 'this week' or 'next week'? Or it should at least be possible to confirm you are/aren't on track for releasing it in the next two weeks.

benwaggoner

05-09-07, 10:25 PM

What is the difference between Standard, intermediate and "expanded" on the VGA output settings for the 360/HD-DVD combo unit?

I assume

A. Standard ='s 7.5 IRE?
B. Intermeidate ='s XX IRE?
C. Expanded ='s 0 IRE??

You got it. Intermediate is an intermediate between 7.5 and 0 (hence 3.75, I believe). That's useful since some displays, notably Samsungs, can get a green tint when driven at the full Expanded range.

HDless

05-09-07, 10:58 PM

The thing with the quicktime trailers, the issue seems to be that the new Dash update supports 1080p quicktime trailers, but only ones with stereo audio. Those trailer with 5.1 sound don't play.

Off burnt DVD I didn't have any problems playing 1080p (stereo) trailers, but it did stutter for me playing them off a compact flash card (plugged into my DELL monitor). For me the CF reader must be just a bit too slow.

Will quicktimes with 5.1 audio be supported in the future?

By the way, great dash update, the new VGA setting looks good.

crashoveridema0

05-09-07, 11:42 PM

dear amirm, or any one who can help me

GREAT DASHBOARD UPDATE im lovn the reference fix for vga and hdmi, but i cant stream quicktim videos to my 360 through wmp 11 and i have vista. the videos just dont appear on my 360. ON my pc they are in my video library in windows media playen and i can play them through wmp 11 becuase i downloaded a codec pack as suggested so what should i do?

benwaggoner

05-09-07, 11:44 PM

The thing with the quicktime trailers, the issue seems to be that the new Dash update supports 1080p quicktime trailers, but only ones with stereo audio. Those trailer with 5.1 sound don't play.
Ah, correct. Check out the FAQ:

http://blogs.msdn.com/xboxteam/archive/2007/05/09/spring-07-video-playback-faq.aspx

1. What exactly does the Xbox 360 support for H.264?
Xbox 360 supports the following for H.264:
· File Extensions: .mp4, .m4v, mp4v, .mov
· Containers: MPEG-4, QuickTime
· Video Profiles: Baseline, main, and high (up to Level 4.1) profiles.
· Video Bitrate: 10 Mbps with resolutions of 1920 x 1080 at 30fps. See question number 6 for more information.
· Audio Profiles: 2 channel AAC low complexity (LC)
· Audio Max Bitrate: No restrictions. See question number 6 for more information.

Off burnt DVD I didn't have any problems playing 1080p (stereo) trailers, but it did stutter for me playing them off a compact flash card (plugged into my DELL monitor). For me the CF reader must be just a bit too slow.
Flash memory typically doesn't support high enough sustained bandwidth for HD playback.

benwaggoner

05-09-07, 11:46 PM

GREAT DASHBOARD UPDATE im lovn the reference fix for vga and hdmi, but i cant stream quicktim videos to my 360 through wmp 11 and i have vista. the videos just dont appear on my 360. ON my pc they are in my video library in windows media playen and i can play them through wmp 11 becuase i downloaded a codec pack as suggested so what should i do?
You can stream .mp4 and .mov via the Zune application, but not WMP11.

The Zune app is really a very nice media player, even when you're not using a Zune device.

AnthonyP

05-10-07, 12:03 AM

does anyone have any info on the Hitachi BD recorder (in the news thread)

renamed

05-10-07, 12:18 AM

Question to all Microsoft insider,

I got the patch this morning for my xbox 360, now some of my videos i download from marketplace do not play the audio. For what i can see is that videos i have with 5.1 sound is able to play perfectly while videos with no 5.1 soundtrack does not have sound while playing.

Everything was working fine before the patch, Is this is a known issue or am I the only weirdo with this bug?

Paul Cordingley

05-10-07, 12:18 AM

I was terribly disappointed to find that the XBox update still doesn't support 50Hz for us Aussies/Brits who's high definition is transmitted at 1080i50. Makes for stuttery TV when being used as an extender. :(

Do any insiders know if this is in the cards for the next update. Apologies for not being truly thread relevant.

HDless

05-10-07, 12:26 AM

Thanks Ben.

Good Link.

Just wondering, do you know why Mpeg/Mpeg2 still isn't supported in the dash?

I would have thought that would have been easier to implement then the more advanced mp4/H.264 codecs. And also the fact that the 360 plays DVD, which are mpeg2s.

Hopefully 5.1 in MOVs will be supported down the line, and DivX/Xvid. :D

Are MKVs also mp4 based?

Thanks.

hatchback

05-10-07, 12:29 AM

This is a question for our Microsoft insiders....

Why do so few digital audio playback devices -- ranging from portable players like the Zune to media extenders like Sonos or Squeezebox or Mediagate -- support WMA Lossless? Why does Apple Lossless have so much wider support than WMA Lossless on playback devices? And what are you planning to do to fix this serious problem for those of us who foolishly choose the Microsoft media ecosystem over Apple iTunes?

Respectfully,

HB

benwaggoner

05-10-07, 12:50 AM

Just wondering, do you know why Mpeg/Mpeg2 still isn't supported in the dash?

I would have thought that would have been easier to implement then the more advanced mp4/H.264 codecs. And also the fact that the 360 plays DVD, which are mpeg2s.
I don't know what drove that decision.

Hopefully 5.1 in MOVs will be supported down the line, and DivX/Xvid. :D
Xvid/divx are both the MPEG-4 Part 2 codec, which is supported. They're typically used in .avi files, which are not, but would work in a .mp4 or .mov wrapper.

Are MKVs also mp4 based?
That's another wrapper format, not MPEG-4 based. I can store a variety of codecs. It's not any kind of industry standard, and mainly used in particular hobbyist niches.

HDless

05-10-07, 01:10 AM

Cool.

Thanks again Ben.

HDless

05-10-07, 01:30 AM

For any MS insider.

Why did MS make it so you have to install software on the PC (MCE, WM11, etc.) in order to play videos, music or pics from a PC on the 360?

That always bugged me. Why didn't they at least give the option to be able to connect without the having to install software. I know it won't happen, but I hope they can did do it at some point.

Roger Dressler

05-10-07, 01:39 AM

Hi Roger - welcome to the boards.

Can you confirm what's been going on with Dolby TrueHD as pertains to Blu-ray.
Have there been numerous changes in the specs or implementation since last year? Is TrueHD on Blu-ray now "better" than it was last June and why?
I feel that over the next year we will see studios like Paramount, Sony, Disney and Warner move to TrueHD on Blu-ray or DTS-HD MA as more and more players and receivers that are compatible with the format are released. Luv your screen name! The DTHD specs and implementations have not changed--other than there may be more implementations now than before. I believe there were some early compatibility issues between DTHD files and the authoring systems, and some quick tweaks were made to iron those out. But I think your observation about the increase in compatible players is having the greatest impact on the content makers.

Also are you able to shed any light on whether or not the PS3 can pass TrueHD natively to a TrueHD receiver? Is this something that's hardware related and requires a new chipset, or because there would be no decoding in this manner is it something that would be a software upgrade, if anything is needed at all.

Thanks.Our understanding is that the PS3 cannot pass DTHD bitstreams. Only Sony can say why and if that will change.