Thanks to Benwaggoner and HDless for clearing up the QT HD trailer thing for me!

just a quick reminder of the rules of this special thread and the updated list:

Post Questions [only questions] directed to and answered only by Industry Insiders who are asked to identify themselves as such in their sig : subject to AVS approval

Industry Insiders only may answer questions or make comments: this is the thread for chat between Insiders as well

any AVS member can post questions [only questions please] for Insiders- but we will not tolerate any bashing

AVS recognizes the special nature of Industry Insiders and values their participation: we ask all AVS members to treat them with respect

Remember: Questions only: no off topic posts: they may be removed: and only Insiders [who have been recognized by AVS moderators] may answer

Insiders: please PM Ken H and myself with your credentials: mods and only mods will make the determination of who qualifys as an insider and all such discussions will be done off line: not to be discussed here

This is a continuation of the original thread Industry Insiders Q&A Thread: only Questions to insiders please (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7970761&&#post7970761) which did not end well: any more of this and we will take strong action: Insiders are to be treated with respect:

Please help us make this a flagship thread on AVS by observing these rules

Insiders approved to post in this thread and guidelines for this list:

this list is controlled by the mods: please don't post, either here or in any other forum or thread, about the selection

- list is for this Insider's thread only: it does not apply to any other forum, thread, or post: we don't ask Insider's status outside of this thread and they are not required to ID themselves ouside of this thread
- please don't start any threads on it
-see a mistake or want to request an edit? please PM me: list will be updated frequently
-Are you an Insider who wants to post? please PM me if you are not on the list: we would love to add more


Amirm
Amir Majidimehr
Corporate Vice President, Microsoft Corporation
Consumer Media Technology Group, Mobile and Embedded Devices Division
Microsoft (HD DVD insider)
VC-1 video codec insider in BD/HD DVD

Andy Pennell
Andy Pennell
HDi Developer, Microsoft
HD DVD Insider

benwaggoner
Ben Waggoner
Program Manager for Video Encoding, Professional Content Group, Microsoft
HD DVD and VC-1 Insider with Microsoft

bkilian
Bryan Kilian
Software Development Engineer in Test HDDVD team at Microsoft
Insider with Microsoft

Cjplay
name withheld upon request
Warner Bros HD-DVD Compressionist
Compressionist
[we miss you]

DTV Tivo Dealer
Robert Zohn
President of *********************
Advanced Digital Technology Dealer
TV Broadcast RF Systems Engineer
Retailer - B&M Storefront and Online Website

FilmMixer
name withheld upon request
Re-Recording Mixer, ToddAO Studios
Studio City, CA
Film Sound and Post Production Insider

JeffWilliams
Authoring and Compression
HD-DVD/Blu-ray Insider

jimby_99
name withheld upon request
VP, Advanced Technology for Universal Music Group
Production/Release supervisor of Blu-ray, HD DVD & DVD titles
Music/Video Industry Insider

kjack
Keith Jack
Director Product Marketing
Sigma Designs
BD and HD-DVD decoder supplier
BD/HD-DVD insider

MeridianHQ
name withheld upon request
Meridian Insider
Huntingdon England

PacificDisc
name withheld upon request
Sean - PacificDisc
HD DVD & Blu-ray Replication Insider

paidgeek
name withheld upon request
Sony Pictures BD Insider
Engineer

RBFilms
Richard J. Casey
R&B Films, Ltd.
Producers Guild of America, New Media Council
HD-DVD / BD Industry Insider

RDoherty
Richard E. Doherty
Director, Technology Strategy, Microsoft

Roger Dressler
Director, Business Development
Dolby Laboratories

shore
name withheld upon request
Blu-ray and HD-DVD Insider

Talkstr8t
name withheld upon request
Blu-ray Insider
Speaking solely for myself, not the BDA
Digital Television

walkamo
Christopher Walker
Product Planning and Marketing for Blu-ray and Optical Discs
Pioneer Electronics Sr Manager
Blu-ray Hardware Insider


[list as of 10 May 2007: check the top thread as the list gets updated frequently]

A few weeks ago I asked Amir if there was a way to stream DVD's using Vista Media Center to the MC extender on the 360. He said it wasn't allowed until last year when MS' WM-DRM was approved as a transport. Can we expect to see this now that WM-DRM content is allowed to be streamed?


I second this question - bearing in mind Windows Media Player can do it (and hence Windows MCE can do it), it's rather frustrating that it cannot be done on a MCE extender i.e. the 360. Are there any plans to enable this feature in the future?

Thanks.

"ranging from portable players like the Zune to media extenders like Sonos or Squeezebox or Mediagate -- support WMA Lossless? "

I agree I have been bugging the Zune devs since I got a zune at launch about WMA Lossless support on the device. It's odd cause the Toshiba gigabeat support lossless audio but not the Zune.

Amir can you bug the zune devs about supporting some type of lossless audio on the zune device? This is a big deal for a lot of us that would like full quality audio. It would also be nice as we could play lossless audio through the Zune into the 360.

Ben (or Amir, if you're back),

Can we get an update on the HD-DVD update?
Recently it was stated that it was close to going into test.
Did it pass test, or were there issues that caused it to be sent
back requiring further fixing? Are we on track to get the update soon,
maybe next week?


Thanks!


-Brian

Ben (or Amir, if you're back),

Can we get an update on the HD-DVD update?
Recently it was stated that it was close to going into test.
Did it pass test, or were there issues that caused it to be sent
back requiring further fixing? Are we on track to get the update soon,
maybe next week?

You don't know for sure when software is going to be done until it's actually done, especially when it's almost done :). It's close, but can't be more specific than that.

Talkstr8t - Any updates on the Fox reshedule? What happened to Disneys Cars? When can we expect it?

Question to all Microsoft insider,

I got the patch this morning for my xbox 360, now some of my videos i download from marketplace do not play the audio. For what i can see is that videos i have with 5.1 sound is able to play perfectly while videos with no 5.1 soundtrack does not have sound while playing.

Everything was working fine before the patch, Is this is a known issue or am I the only weirdo with this bug?I have the same problem. I found a workaround, use the analog audio cables for now. It's annoying, but it gets the job done for now.

Amirm - Do you head or speak on development for any other 360 peripherals besides the HD-DVD player? I have some questions regarding other peripheral support I would like to direct to an insider.

Amirm - Do you head or speak on development for any other 360 peripherals besides the HD-DVD player? I have some questions regarding other peripheral support I would like to direct to an insider.
If it's not video related, it's not likely something we'd know much about.

I have a question about HD DVD audio. Are the TrueHD and DD+ streams 7.1 or 5.1 by default? If they are 7.1 (or 6.1 i guess) why not downmix them to DD EX or DTS-ES?

I have a question about HD DVD audio. Are the TrueHD and DD+ streams 7.1 or 5.1 by default?
Either can do either.

Licensed content (like from URGE?) with a license on the PC can now stream to the 360. I haven't had a chance to play around with this myself yet.

Hi Ben:
Glad to see a post about this, may I ask for a bit of clarification...I have 2 videos from Amazon Unbox on my PC, with proper DRM, and they play fine in a number of apps on my PC...WMP 10, TheaterTek, but when I place the files in my PC Xbox 360 folder, they are not seen by the Xbox. Zune will not play them and displays the error "Zune software cannot play, burn, or sync this protected file. The file was obtained from an online store that Zune software does not support."
Am I correct in assuming that since Zune doesnt support this neither will the 360? I find it odd as Unbox makes mention of playback via Xbox 360 if you use the older Windows Media Connect if I remember correctly....although it may have been the media center OS...thanks for your help!

I have a pioneer VSX D810 receiver oboviously it came out before WMA pro was introduced. I use my xbox 360 elite to watch movies. I set the settings to use WMA Pro digital. My receiver is able to play the movies in surround sound. It actually sounds better than regular Dolby Digital. My question is why is the receiver still working when it does not support WMA Pro? Or is it able to decode WMA pro? Can someone with a vast knowledge of this answer my question please? Thank you I will greatly appreciate it.

Hi Ben:
Glad to see a post about this, may I ask for a bit of clarification...I have 2 videos from Amazon Unbox on my PC, with proper DRM, and they play fine in a number of apps on my PC...WMP 10, TheaterTek, but when I place the files in my PC Xbox 360 folder, they are not seen by the Xbox. Zune will not play them and displays the error "Zune software cannot play, burn, or sync this protected file. The file was obtained from an online store that Zune software does not support."
Am I correct in assuming that since Zune doesnt support this neither will the 360? I find it odd as Unbox makes mention of playback via Xbox 360 if you use the older Windows Media Connect if I remember correctly....although it may have been the media center OS...thanks for your help!
I'm not an expert on DRM - I'm not sure to what degree the Zune and Xbox support the same assets. Since Zune targets an end-to-end ecosystem, I'd think the Xbox support would be more general.

I have a pioneer VSX D810 receiver oboviously it came out before WMA pro was introduced. I use my xbox 360 elite to watch movies. I set the settings to use WMA Pro digital. My receiver is able to play the movies in surround sound. It actually sounds better than regular Dolby Digital. My question is why is the receiver still working when it does not support WMA Pro? Or is it able to decode WMA pro? Can someone with a vast knowledge of this answer my question please? Thank you I will greatly appreciate it.
Where did you set that parameter? What content are you playing? I suspect you might have just turned on the WMA Pro passthrough, which would only apply if you're listening to content using the WMA Pro codec, otherwise you get out AC-3.

Where did you set that parameter? What content are you playing? I suspect you might have just turned on the WMA Pro passthrough, which would only apply if you're listening to content using the WMA Pro codec, otherwise you get out AC-3.

Does this affect my surround sound am I still getting dolby digital? Should I switch it back to the DD settings or can I leave it on WMA pro? Is it really making a difference?
If this were really WMA pro I wouldnt get any sound?

Does this affect my surround sound am I still getting dolby digital? Should I switch it back to the DD settings or can I leave it on WMA pro? Is it really making a difference?
If this were really WMA pro I wouldnt get any sound?
Yes, I assume that if you played WMA Pro audio you wouldn't get anything (or at least anything you'd want to hear).

Hi Roger. I'm not sure if my previous question regarding efficiency between DD on BD and DD+ on HD-DVD is something you can speak to, or if it's NDA material. Here's a recent post from someone on another thread. I'm hoping that you can tell us if this statement is accurate, and if so what the efficiency differences actually look like between DD and DD+ on the two formats.

what I am contending is that DD+ is a bit less efficient then DD and DD+ as used on HD DVD is even less efficient.

As Amir has said umpteen times, there are TWO Xbox updates: one for the flash, which happened at 2am today, and one for the HD DVD player, which has not happened yet. The flash update has the VGA level option which is of interest to readers of this forum, but no changes to the HD DVD engine: you need the other update for that, which is Coming Soon. Please, no more questions as to when exactly. If I could predict the future that accurately, I'd be buying lottery tickets :)

So, does the second update make the DVE HD DVD work? The disk (for video calibration) is worthless now. Thanks. SJ

Xvid/divx are both the MPEG-4 Part 2 codec, which is supported. They're typically used in .avi files, which are not, but would work in a .mp4 or .mov wrapper.

Sorry for my ignorance.
How does a wrapper work?
And where can I get more information about this?

I have a question about HD DVD audio. Are the TrueHD and DD+ streams 7.1 or 5.1 by default? If they are 7.1 (or 6.1 i guess) why not downmix them to DD EX or DTS-ES? They can be any channel configuration from mono thru 7.1--all depends on the nature of the source program. They can also support 5.1 sources that were EX encoded. The 7.1 and 6.1 modes support many other possible uses for the channels beyond the core 5.1 than just Cs or even Lb/Rb, so it would not be possible or beneficial to downmix them into an EX version.

They can be any channel configuration from mono thru 7.1--all depends on the nature of the source program. They can also support 5.1 sources that were EX encoded. The 7.1 and 6.1 modes support many other possible uses for the channels beyond the core 5.1 than just Cs or even Lb/Rb, so it would not be possible or beneficial to downmix them into an EX version.

Thanks, I was just wonderin'.

If it's not video related, it's not likely something we'd know much about.


does the Live Vision camera count as video?

does the Live Vision camera count as video?
Not to the extant I know much about it beyond its existance, and its enormous popularity in Uno games :). I don't own one myself.

Sorry for my ignorance.
How does a wrapper work?
And where can I get more information about this?
The wrapper is the file format, like .mov, .avi, .mp4, .mkv. Any of those can contain different codecs and metadata, and they all pack that data in different ways. To build a player, you need to have both a parser, that turns the wrapper file into streams of data for each codec, and then the decoders for each stream.

If you lack either a parser or a decoder for a file's format and codecs, you can't play it back.

The wrapper is the file format, like .mov, .avi, .mp4, .mkv. Any of those can contain different codecs and metadata, and they all pack that data in different ways. To build a player, you need to have both a parser, that turns the wrapper file into streams of data for each codec, and then the decoders for each stream.

If you lack either a parser or a decoder for a file's format and codecs, you can't play it back.

Do you think the xbox 360 will ever support the .avi wrapper? I want this feature.

Do you think the xbox 360 will ever support the .avi wrapper? I want this feature.
I have no knowlege of what the post Spring Update plans are at this point.

.avi is a very problematic format to support, since there is an incredible combination of codecs that can be used within it. I've got tons of .avi files even on my PC that play in some players, but not others.

Hi Roger. I'm not sure if my previous question regarding efficiency between DD on BD and DD+ on HD-DVD is something you can speak to, or if it's NDA material. Here's a recent post from someone on another thread. I'm hoping that you can tell us if this statement is accurate, and if so what the efficiency differences actually look like between DD and DD+ on the two formats.

what I am contending is that DD+ is a bit less efficient then DD and DD+ as used on HD DVD is even less efficient. The efficiency difference between DD and DD+ changes with bitrate. As the bitrate goes down, the efficiency of DD+ increases vs DD because the new coding tools take effect. As the bitrate increases to the same as normally used for DD, 448 kbps, the efficiency is essentially the same--might still be small advantage to DD+ under special circumstances due to the improved filterbank. In the case of HD DVD, as the bitrate increases beyond what DD can do (448 kbps), say 640 and above, the efficiency of DD+ reduces slightly as the frames get smaller, but as there is no equivalent bitrate for DD in that case, it cannot be concluded DD+ is less efficient than DD.

Roger, thanks for your input here, it's much appreciated!

Has Dolby done some broader tests with audiophiles, comparing:
(1) lossless 16bit with
(2) DD+ >16bit with 1.5Mbps?

That would be quite interesting to me. From what I understand DD+ tracks don't get bigger in size if you feed them more bits, is that right? If so, shouldn't every studio feed the master in full bitdepth into the DD+ encoder? Do you know if they are doing that already?

Ben, or Amir...

Is the 360 artificially stretching the color space to fit the 0-255 range, when going from "video levels" to "pc levels"? Thereby remapping 16 to 0 and 235 to 255? Would it be correct to assume that:

The video levels are "stretched" to pc levels. If they weren't going to "expand" the video levels , they would just ask you to select your display type (monitor or TV). Games are developed with video levels in mind since 99% of thier customers will be using video level devices. The 360 would have to stretch the levels so as not to break any existing games video output. If you look at it this way, stretching the levels was by far the easiest way to deal with the problem without introducing any other issues. By simply expanding the video levels to pc levels, you ensure everything still looks correctly across the board without having to test anything to verify it's displaying correctly.

Thanks...

The wrapper is the file format, like .mov, .avi, .mp4, .mkv. Any of those can contain different codecs and metadata, and they all pack that data in different ways. To build a player, you need to have both a parser, that turns the wrapper file into streams of data for each codec, and then the decoders for each stream.

Thanks Ben.

So is it accurate to say, based on your previous post, that you can "unwrap" an AVI and then "rewrap" the codecs and metadata in a different package or wrapper?
Does this require re-encoding the source material in anyway?

Is the 360 artificially stretching the color space to fit the 0-255 range, when going from "video levels" to "pc levels"? Thereby remapping 16 to 0 and 235 to 255? Would it be correct to assume that:

The video levels are "stretched" to pc levels. If they weren't going to "expand" the video levels , they would just ask you to select your display type (monitor or TV). Games are developed with video levels in mind since 99% of thier customers will be using video level devices. The 360 would have to stretch the levels so as not to break any existing games video output. If you look at it this way, stretching the levels was by far the easiest way to deal with the problem without introducing any other issues. By simply expanding the video levels to pc levels, you ensure everything still looks correctly across the board without having to test anything to verify it's displaying correctly.

AFAIK, games were already being rendered internally as 0-255 PC levels, but then outputting 0 as IRE 7.5. Now the IRE for R'G'B'=0 can be set.

So is it accurate to say, based on your previous post, that you can "unwrap" an AVI and then "rewrap" the codecs and metadata in a different package or wrapper?
Does this require re-encoding the source material in anyway?
If the codec bitreams are compatible, yes it's possible. This is typically called a "remux."

The harder point is metadata, since what's supported can vary so widely between formats.

Any word on HD DVD writers / burnable media for PC's ?

The BD burners are darn expensive! :eek:

ben or amir,

After the update, the WMV files I had that had previously worked just fine, now are very horizontally stretched, like some kind of super widescreen. If I attempt to change the aspect ratio, it does nothing until I get to fullscreen, and then the right blade comes up telling me it's an incompatible format. But they worked just fine before the update.

Any ideas what could be the cause of this? I tried both streaming from my computer and burning to a disc. Same result.

After the update, the WMV files I had that had previously worked just fine, now are very horizontally stretched, like some kind of super widescreen. If I attempt to change the aspect ratio, it does nothing until I get to fullscreen, and then the right blade comes up telling me it's an incompatible format. But they worked just fine before the update.

Any ideas what could be the cause of this? I tried both streaming from my computer and burning to a disc. Same result.
They work fine for me. How are you setting the aspect ratio?

Note that the old Dash didn't correct for anamorphic pixels, so a file that was tagged wrong might have appeared right before, but looks incorrect now.

They work fine for me. How are you setting the aspect ratio?

Note that the old Dash didn't correct for anamorphic pixels, so a file that was tagged wrong might have appeared right before, but looks incorrect now.

Thanks for the quick reply. Basically I was converting divx videos with this (http://happybeggar.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=60&Itemid=2) batch program for VLC. It would spit out wmv's that worked great. I suppose maybe your explanation is the reason for it, but now I need to find something else to quickly convert video files to wmv's.

To fix aspect ratio I was using the little hot bar that comes up on the bottom of the screen when you press ( I believe) B on the controller during playback. It seems to cycle through a few aspect ratio settings.

So, does the second update make the DVE HD DVD work? The disk (for video calibration) is worthless now. Thanks. SJ

Didn't AMIR make statements that the recent update would correct the DVE HD DVD issues? Or is this coming later?

Didn't AMIR make statements that the recent update would correct the DVE HD DVD issues? Or is this coming later?
The HD DVD update is still coming (soon!).

Has Dolby done some broader tests with audiophiles, comparing:
(1) lossless 16bit with
(2) DD+ >16bit with 1.5Mbps?No, we have not.

From what I understand DD+ tracks don't get bigger in size if you feed them more bits, is that right? If so, shouldn't every studio feed the master in full bitdepth into the DD+ encoder? Do you know if they are doing that already?Correct, the bitrate of lossy codecs, DD or DD+ in this case, are not affected by input wordlength. So yes, in that respect it would make sense to use the 24-bit source if available. But if a studio has prepared a 16-bit master for the PCM or lossless track, it is probably not easy to justify the cost and tracking issues to create another master at 24 bits just for the lossy track. I suspect that as lossless gets used more routinely, the masters will use higher resolution sources. Lossless is a better way to save space than wordlength truncation.

Correct, the bitrate of lossy codecs, DD or DD+ in this case, are not affected by input wordlength. So yes, in that respect it would make sense to use the 24-bit source if available. But if a studio has prepared a 16-bit master for the PCM or lossless track, it is probably not easy to justify the cost and tracking issues to create another master at 24 bits just for the lossy track. I suspect that as lossless gets used more routinely, the masters will use higher resolution sources. Lossless is a better way to save space than wordlength truncation.Isn't the reason that the track doesn't get bigger in size simply because the output of the encoder is a fixed CBR rather than anything else? Does this also mean that effectively the compression algorithms have to work harder on a 24bit source to make it fit the output CBR or do you get something for nothing here?

This is a question for paidgeek.

First, thanks for your participation in this thread and all the good info you have given us.

Resident Evil 2 is available on blu-ray currently. Are their any plans to release the original Resident Evil film? If so will that be as part of Resident Evil 3 marketing/release or earlier?

I have heard rumour that Memoirs of a Geisha is available on blu-ray in Italy but can find little information on this. Is a US release on the cards anytime soon?

I have my pre-order in for Curse of the Golden Flower and already Own House of Flying Daggers. Do you have anymore big Chinese or other Asian releases in the works that fans like myself might get excited about?

Thankyou for your time. It is very much appreciated.

momaw

Isn't the reason that the track doesn't get bigger in size simply because the output of the encoder is a fixed CBR rather than anything else? Does this also mean that effectively the compression algorithms have to work harder on a 24bit source to make it fit the output CBR or do you get something for nothing here?Once a signal enters the codec, it is treated as 24 bits regardless. It does not require more bits or harder work to do so because of what is called the exponent/mantissa gain scaling operation. The loudness of the audio signal (within each narrow frequency band of the filterbank) is carried in shorthand notation--the exponent shifts the audio by 6 dB per step. Furthermore, the exponent values are not defined explicitly for each band, but differentially from one band to the next. That means that the spectral shape of a signal can be replicated at any loudness, whether the signal is 20, 80, or 130 dB below full scale, with no difference in the amount of exponent data required. Only the first band carries an explicit value that covers the full 24-bit dynamic range.

This is probably grossly oversimplified, so if you want some additional detail on how this works, it is nicely covered in this white paper (http://www.dolby.com/assets/pdf/tech_library/37_ac3-flex.pdf). Part 4 discusses how the spectral envelope is coded. That’s the section to look at.

Amir/Ben

It seems that the spring dashboard update did NOT correct VGA output for 1080P on the Sony SXRD XBR2's. Are there any additional expected VGA fixes for the HD DVD update that will correct this ongoing problem reported back in December 2006?

Once a signal enters the codec, it is treated as 24 bits regardless. It does not require more bits or harder work to do so because of what is called the exponent/mantissa gain scaling operation.
I can't tell you what a pleasure it is to be asking questions here for once :). I haven't had nearly as much opportunity to deal with the audio side of the advanced formats.

Always 24-bit internally? So, if one has 24-bit source, one would always encode as 24-bit with DD+, since "simplifying" by converting to 16-bit first wouldn't really do anything advantageous?

...gotta love this thread, this is where the fun happens.

Some questions about audio - many of us know about the yeoman's work done on the video restoration and preservation side, but I for one am quite murky about the audio side. There a number of noteable things that are affecting our home presentations (and buying choice) thanks to these new formats.

1) For older films, I assume there are single or mutichannel optical or mag copies of the sound mix, depending on the age of the film and the budget for the mix. How have modern digital film soundtracks been preserved and archived? I assume with the changing technology there are a wide range of formats and originating platforms, but is there a standardization for the archiving of these digital mixes?

2)We've lived for years with DVD 5.1 mixes that were little more than stereo home video tracks processed through a magic box to 'simulate" surround. Obviously, lossless audio on HD/BD isn't going to rely upon such contrivances. That said, depending on the archiving solution above, is it possible that there's only a compressed (SDDS/DTS/DD) version of the theatrical mix available for use? In other words, is it conceivable for some films that a lossless soundtrack option isn't available, regardless of budget for home video, because there's no lossless source to draw from?

3) I did search for this (honest) but I've been unable to confirm once and for all whether or not certain BD and HD releases (take, I dunno, the first Mission Impossible) have unique encodings, with the the 1.5mb/s DD+ soundtrack on HD-DVD being a unique track from the DD 640kb/s track on the BD. We all know, of course, that higher bitrate and more efficient codec does not ensure improved quality if the source isn't so hot to start with. However, we have little to work with -other- than the assumption that a better audio codec (be it from Dolby or DTS or of course LPCM) will be the result of a unique encode (as opposed to, as above with video, metaphorically "remuxed" from one format to another).

4) It is suggested from some members of this forum, even one that purports to be a sound mixer, that there is little to no difference between a discrete 7.1 presentation on disc and a "matrixed" rear surround stage, as the archived soundtracks are only stored/mixed for 5.1 While at home ES/EX mixes can be either matrixed or discrete, I had assumed that there was actually a 6th (or 7th) channel at the mixing stage that would be subsequently used to generate the home video mix. Certainly "faked" rear surround signals just for the sake of showing off would be fairly useless, one could certainly understand the desire for the inclusion at home of mixes that were designed originally to incorporate rear surround information. A caveat is that I believe that theatrical presentations still are mixed for a mono rear surround field, so getting true stereo rear surrounds (as useless as this will be for many films :) ) might require a separate mix strictly for home.

When looking at the upcoming release of Nutty Professor II receiving a TrueHD soundtrack option, while the first Bourne film gets "only" DD+, one has to wonder about the political and technical challenges surrounding the choice of soundtrack for these releases. Here's hoping that my blatherings above can draw some interesting responses from you crazy insider peeps.

...It is suggested from some members of this forum, even one that purports to be a sound mixer....

I can confirm that FilmMixer is who he claims to be.

Moderator

Insiders are checked and approved by mods: if you have an issue with the selection, please PM me:

do not post it

from the rules for this thread in the top:

Insiders approved to post in this thread and guidelines for this list:

this list is controlled by the mods: please don't post, either here or in any other forum or thread, about the selection

- list is for this Insider's thread only: it does not apply to any other forum, thread, or post: we don't ask Insider's status outside of this thread and they are not required to ID themselves ouside of this thread
- please don't start any threads on it
-see a mistake or want to request an edit? please PM me: list will be updated frequently
-Are you an Insider who wants to post? please PM me if you are not on the list: we would love to add more

Hi walkamo

just saw you are on the HW side.

Any news if Pioneer is working on recorders, multidisk players.... for North America?

The efficiency difference between DD and DD+ changes with bitrate. As the bitrate goes down, the efficiency of DD+ increases vs DD because the new coding tools take effect. As the bitrate increases to the same as normally used for DD, 448 kbps, the efficiency is essentially the same--might still be small advantage to DD+ under special circumstances due to the improved filterbank. In the case of HD DVD, as the bitrate increases beyond what DD can do (448 kbps), say 640 and above, the efficiency of DD+ reduces slightly as the frames get smaller, but as there is no equivalent bitrate for DD in that case, it cannot be concluded DD+ is less efficient than DD.

hi Roger, how about DD@640? (i.e. would DD+@640 on HD DVD match it)

The HD DVD update is still coming (soon!).

Is it save to assume, that "soon" means next week?

Because the first time we heard that it will come soon was in december 2006...

Is "Hellfire360" a Microsoft insider from the xbox team?

He got this "Launch Team" thing in his gamer tag - and he said the update would come in less then a week from today:

Hellfire360 wrote:

sniper rmr wrote:
I feel better after that "we fixed it"... so to keep it simple,1. how much time do we have to wait to enjoy our HDDVD movies in sync?...2. is it going to be a download update? or do we have to take the player to a service center for hardware repairs?...3. This problem isn't going to happen to future releases, let's say two years from now?...4. how are we going to know when the solution is available? Thaks for the work you're doing to fix this problem (I'm a tv editor and this problem it really makes me mad)



1. less than a week
2. yes your player should update itself if you're signed into live and attempt to play an hddvd. if you don't have a live connection, you should be able to download and burn the update to a cdrom.
3. as far as we can tell, we've fixed the problem to the point our a/v sync is better than the current toshiba firmware. so if there are subsequent issues, they'll most likely be content authoring problems.
4. i'll post on these forums, but majornelson.com as well as xbox.com will probably call it out as well.

thanks for your patience!

That would be good news.

Ben

Is Microsoft IPTV all WMV9 and is this "VC-1 for TV" so to speak?

What's the difference in size of dvr-ms files per recorded hour between Mpeg-2 SD content and WMV9 HD content? Larger or smaller?

Thanks

...gotta love this thread, this is where the fun happens.

Some questions about audio - many of us know about the yeoman's work done on the video restoration and preservation side, but I for one am quite murky about the audio side. There a number of noteable things that are affecting our home presentations (and buying choice) thanks to these new formats.

1) For older films, I assume there are single or mutichannel optical or mag copies of the sound mix, depending on the age of the film and the budget for the mix. How have modern digital film soundtracks been preserved and archived? I assume with the changing technology there are a wide range of formats and originating platforms, but is there a standardization for the archiving of these digital mixes?

2)We've lived for years with DVD 5.1 mixes that were little more than stereo home video tracks processed through a magic box to 'simulate" surround. Obviously, lossless audio on HD/BD isn't going to rely upon such contrivances. That said, depending on the archiving solution above, is it possible that there's only a compressed (SDDS/DTS/DD) version of the theatrical mix available for use? In other words, is it conceivable for some films that a lossless soundtrack option isn't available, regardless of budget for home video, because there's no lossless source to draw from?

3) I did search for this (honest) but I've been unable to confirm once and for all whether or not certain BD and HD releases (take, I dunno, the first Mission Impossible) have unique encodings, with the the 1.5mb/s DD+ soundtrack on HD-DVD being a unique track from the DD 640kb/s track on the BD. We all know, of course, that higher bitrate and more efficient codec does not ensure improved quality if the source isn't so hot to start with. However, we have little to work with -other- than the assumption that a better audio codec (be it from Dolby or DTS or of course LPCM) will be the result of a unique encode (as opposed to, as above with video, metaphorically "remuxed" from one format to another).

4) It is suggested from some members of this forum, even one that purports to be a sound mixer, that there is little to no difference between a discrete 7.1 presentation on disc and a "matrixed" rear surround stage, as the archived soundtracks are only stored/mixed for 5.1 While at home ES/EX mixes can be either matrixed or discrete, I had assumed that there was actually a 6th (or 7th) channel at the mixing stage that would be subsequently used to generate the home video mix. Certainly "faked" rear surround signals just for the sake of showing off would be fairly useless, one could certainly understand the desire for the inclusion at home of mixes that were designed originally to incorporate rear surround information. A caveat is that I believe that theatrical presentations still are mixed for a mono rear surround field, so getting true stereo rear surrounds (as useless as this will be for many films :) ) might require a separate mix strictly for home.

When looking at the upcoming release of Nutty Professor II receiving a TrueHD soundtrack option, while the first Bourne film gets "only" DD+, one has to wonder about the political and technical challenges surrounding the choice of soundtrack for these releases. Here's hoping that my blatherings above can draw some interesting responses from you crazy insider peeps.

I will post a complete reply after Mother's Day brunch :)

Is it save to assume, that "soon" means next week?

Because the first time we heard that it will come soon was in december 2006...

Is "Hellfire360" a Microsoft insider from the xbox team?

He got this "Launch Team" thing in his gamer tag - and he said the update would come in less then a week from today:

I don't have a gamertag<>email translator, so I'm not sure who that is :). But the Xbox team controls the releases, so that's a good sign :).

FYI, my gamertag is "benwaggoner"

Is Microsoft IPTV all WMV9 and is this "VC-1 for TV" so to speak?
MSTV is codec agnostic - it works with everything. At this point, the majority of live content is in H.264 and the majority of on-demand content is in WMV with VC-1. We're working hard with partners to make VC-1 competitive in the IPTV space as well, as part of our SDK licensing effort. Inlet Spinnaker is the first product using that.

What's the difference in size of dvr-ms files per recorded hour between Mpeg-2 SD content and WMV9 HD content? Larger or smaller?

Depends on the data rate, of course :). At those bitrates, we're about 2-3x more efficient at a given quality level.

paidgeek,

considering the importance of the PS3 for Blu-ray, maybe you could convince an insider from SCEI to post here on avsforum? There are a lot of questions (24p, DTS-HD MA decoding, bitstream via HDMI, DVD upconverting etc. etc.) that are currently being left unanswered.

As Microsoft (5 insiders and counting) so clearly understands, this forum is a great way to communicate with your customers and show confidence in your product. Also, there seems to be a new marketing push planned for the PS3 with more of an emphasis on it's Blu-ray capabilities (http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Sony/PlayStation_3/High-Def_Gaming/High-Def_Disc_Marketing/Sony_Touts_Blu-ray_Capabilities_in_New_PlayStation_3_Marketing_Push/615). Posting in the insiders thread on avsforum would, I believe, complement this effort.

In any case, please keep up the good work. I like your posting style a lot, very factual and to the point.

Thanks for your comments. I agree that it would be ideal if someone from each division of the company was participating here. I also think it is a great way to get feedback from our customers. What can be problematic is the fact that members want solutions to their specific problems (preferably with dates) and if something should be over-promised, there is a sense that we lose, rather than gain ground, even if it is an honest mistake. On the other hand, I think viewing posts hear is common among BD companies and this is having a positive effect.

I can't tell you what a pleasure it is to be asking questions here for once :). I haven't had nearly as much opportunity to deal with the audio side of the advanced formats.

Always 24-bit internally? So, if one has 24-bit source, one would always encode as 24-bit with DD+, since "simplifying" by converting to 16-bit first wouldn't really do anything advantageous?You are correct, sir. No advantage.

This is a question for paidgeek.

First, thanks for your participation in this thread and all the good info you have given us.

Resident Evil 2 is available on blu-ray currently. Are their any plans to release the original Resident Evil film? If so will that be as part of Resident Evil 3 marketing/release or earlier?

I have heard rumour that Memoirs of a Geisha is available on blu-ray in Italy but can find little information on this. Is a US release on the cards anytime soon?

I have my pre-order in for Curse of the Golden Flower and already Own House of Flying Daggers. Do you have anymore big Chinese or other Asian releases in the works that fans like myself might get excited about?

Thankyou for your time. It is very much appreciated.

momaw

It is my pleasure to post here. Looks like the forum has good representation from all the key industries at the moment. I hope the members take full advantage of this.

The titles you asked about are in the works for release later this year in the US and Europe, but this is always subject to change.

Have you seen "Kung Fu Hustle" yet? It has an excellent transfer.

hi Roger, how about DD@640? (i.e. would DD+@640 on HD DVD match it) DD 640 uses 6-block frames (32 ms) and DD+ 640 (on HD DVD) uses 3-block frames. That slight efficiency loss is offset by the new DD+ Adaptive Hybrid Transform. Some folks think the DD+ version comes out better in this hairsplitter. It's pretty close, though.

Roger, thanks for your participation here. I think you've already cleared up a few misunderstandings.

One more question on this issue, if I may:

It's my understanding that, as per the Dolby whitepaper, HD DVD contains a DD+ core for 5.1 channels (up to 1.5Mpbs), and an optional extension frame containing additional channels (replacing the surrounds and adding the rears) for a 7.1 mix (for a combined total of up to 3Mpbs. Is this correct?

Assuming the answer to the above is "yes", I also understand that there is no DD core on HD DVD (only on Blu Ray). Any deck wishing to pass DD out on HD DVD would have a chipset that would re-encode the DD+ bitstream to a DD bitstream?

Mr. Dressler -

First of all, thank you for offering your time and expertise to us geeks. We really appreciate it.

There's been some confusion with DD+ on the two HD formats that I was hoping you could clear up for us. When used with HD DVD, does a DD+ track have a DD core? The same question goes for BD - does a DD+ track (when used with BD) contain a DD track? If so, is it possible for players (on either format) to simply "strip" away the extensions and output DD without converting the track? If it's only possible on one format or the other, please specify.

Thanks again for all of the information!

You are correct, sir. No advantage.
Good to know, thanks.

So, the Sony BD v. Universal HD DVD is really 1.5 Mbps 24-bit versus PCM 16-bit.

I wonder how that changes people's expectations for relative quality...

The Toshiba XA2/XE1 players transcode DD+ and TrueHD to 640 kbit/s Dolby Digital for output over S/PDIF, whereas the earlier players transcoded them to 1.5 Mbit/s DTS. Ever since the players came out, I've been wondering what prompted this change. I can imagine 3 reasons:

1) Toshiba is trying to reduce user confusion (e.g. when the user selects DD+ in the disc menu but sees "DTS" on his receiver's display with the old solution)

2a) Reduction of tandem coding losses: Since DD and DD+ use similar filterbanks, framing, bit packing etc, it is conceivable that DD+ transcoded to DD might sound better than DD+ transcoded to DTS, even with a lower bitrate.
2b) Also, I seem to remember reading in an old whitepaper on DD+ that it is possible to transcode DD+ to DD without fully decoding the stream, thus reducing conversion losses (although I doubt that this is used in the HD-DVD players, since they usually have to mix the soundtrack with secondary audio sources and thus need to fully decode them anyway).

3) Licensing issues (seems unlikely though, since the players now need both DD and DTS encoders rather than just DTS).

Mr. Dressler, while I am aware that you cannot speak for Toshiba, can you shed a light on this (especially if (2) or (3) make any sense)?

Thanks for your participation here!

It is my pleasure to post here. Looks like the forum has good representation from all the key industries at the moment. I hope the members take full advantage of this.

The titles you asked about are in the works for release later this year in the US and Europe, but this is always subject to change.

Have you seen "Kung Fu Hustle" yet? It has an excellent transfer.
Thanks Paidgeek

Kung Fu Hustle was my first BD disc and yes it is magnificent. I love that disc. :)

Once a signal enters the codec, it is treated as 24 bits regardless. It does not require more bits or harder work to do so because of what is called the exponent/mantissa gain scaling operation.Thanks. That is interesting, given that I think that Warner has been using 16/48 for their DD+ tracks. Is there any good reason they would do that with no compression advantage in DD+ over 24/48?

--Darin

Hi, to any insider, in the case that the next update this case for the hd-dvd, comes out this week, (some are saying tuesday-wensday), when downloading it, is it true that I MUST have the add--on conenected to the console, or when connecting to LiVE will it download automaticlly??


Also, will the update make the selection of DTS or DD automaticlly?? I mean, if I choose a True HD tack wich is 1.5 Mbps, DTS is the way to go to get the 15mbps a out of it, but, if I choose a DD+ track that is enconded at 648 Kbps, do I have to switch to DD my self?or will the machine read it and send it atomaticlly to my A/V reciver??


Also, any inders, can tel us, if the Matrix trilogy will bring True HD track??? cuz' there's no where I can find that info!!!

Thanks a lot!

...gotta love this thread, this is where the fun happens.

Some questions about audio - many of us know about the yeoman's work done on the video restoration and preservation side, but I for one am quite murky about the audio side. There a number of noteable things that are affecting our home presentations (and buying choice) thanks to these new formats.

1) For older films, I assume there are single or mutichannel optical or mag copies of the sound mix, depending on the age of the film and the budget for the mix. How have modern digital film soundtracks been preserved and archived? I assume with the changing technology there are a wide range of formats and originating platforms, but is there a standardization for the archiving of these digital mixes?

1. Since we are talking about the advent of digital sound on film, I assume you are speaking of films since 1991 and onward. However, realize that before then, many films were mastered in discrete LCRS stems, and there were a lot of 70mm masters that existed. But that's besides the point.

Up until the last 1 or 2 years, most film since the adoption of discrete digital sound mixes as the norm have been archived a number of ways. The most common way was to still archive to 35mm full coat mag with Dolby SR noise reduction. You must remember that even though films are released in DD, DTS or SDDS, until the last 5-6 years give or take, they were still mixed on mag with analog consoles. Sometimes we have digitally transferred the elements to DA88 8 track digital PCM recorder, sometimes to 3324 or 3348 digital DASH multitrack recorders, and sometimes we deliver the raw elements on a firewire drive and let the studios archive to mag, tape, etc.

But with the advent of hard drive recording, and the complete proliferation of digital editing and workstations, the studios have started to change over their deliveries. It is becoming more and more common to deliver a show in uncompressed PCM .BWAV files (broadcast wave). Most people concur that this is a file that will have a long shelf life, and since it isn't tied to any proprietary format, it is a safe digital asset (i.e. not tied to the certain hot workstation.)

This should become the industry standard over the next 3-5 years.

2)We've lived for years with DVD 5.1 mixes that were little more than stereo home video tracks processed through a magic box to 'simulate" surround. Obviously, lossless audio on HD/BD isn't going to rely upon such contrivances. That said, depending on the archiving solution above, is it possible that there's only a compressed (SDDS/DTS/DD) version of the theatrical mix available for use? In other words, is it conceivable for some films that a lossless soundtrack option isn't available, regardless of budget for home video, because there's no lossless source to draw from?

2. I take exception with that analysis. As I said earlier, for the past 15 years, a majority of films have been mixed in discrete 6 channel, and if a 5.1 didn't exist, you got the LtRt on the disc.. there may have been some matrix extractions done originally, but this was never the norm. If you can point me to the titles you are referring to that you know are 5.1's from a decoded LtRt, let me know... I don't know of any.

Even if a film was originally mixed in Dolby A or SR surround, the original mix stems were in discrete LCRS format, and there are a lot of flexibility in making a 5.1 out of those.

But you need to understand something else.. when we printmaster a film, we create discrete uncompressed PCM masters that are used to make the lossy codecs used for theatrical distribution.. the Dolby MO that is crested only contains the ~338kbps 5.1 bitstream and LtRt tracks that are used to create an optical sound negative. We send the 5.1 or 6.1 uncompressed master to the lab to encode the SDDS tracks, and another copy of the master to DTS for encoding onto the CD-ROM. These are only used for theatrical distribution, and cannot practically be used for anything else (i.e. they are proprietary lossy encodes or data and not audio). There is always a "lossless" master of a film around, whether it be an optical negative, 35mm mag, hard drive, etc.


3) I did search for this (honest) but I've been unable to confirm once and for all whether or not certain BD and HD releases (take, I dunno, the first Mission Impossible) have unique encodings, with the the 1.5mb/s DD+ soundtrack on HD-DVD being a unique track from the DD 640kb/s track on the BD. We all know, of course, that higher bitrate and more efficient codec does not ensure improved quality if the source isn't so hot to start with. However, we have little to work with -other- than the assumption that a better audio codec (be it from Dolby or DTS or of course LPCM) will be the result of a unique encode (as opposed to, as above with video, metaphorically "remuxed" from one format to another).

3. As per above, there maybe be different encodes of the masters, but the encodes come from the same master.. i.e. there is no consideration into what format the audio will be encoded. This isn't to say that the encodes will sound the same, but the master is the same, and in the case of 16 bit masters, have never delivered one on a film that was mixed in 24 bit, so any truncation, in my experience, is done by the studio or the encoder, and if it is either, I would almost always bet it was done for bit allocation issues, and not quality. And of course, the DD encode is going to be done separately from the DD+ or DTS HD or etc....

4) It is suggested from some members of this forum, even one that purports to be a sound mixer, that there is little to no difference between a discrete 7.1 presentation on disc and a "matrixed" rear surround stage, as the archived soundtracks are only stored/mixed for 5.1 While at home ES/EX mixes can be either matrixed or discrete, I had assumed that there was actually a 6th (or 7th) channel at the mixing stage that would be subsequently used to generate the home video mix. Certainly "faked" rear surround signals just for the sake of showing off would be fairly useless, one could certainly understand the desire for the inclusion at home of mixes that were designed originally to incorporate rear surround information. A caveat is that I believe that theatrical presentations still are mixed for a mono rear surround field, so getting true stereo rear surrounds (as useless as this will be for many films :) ) might require a separate mix strictly for home.

When looking at the upcoming release of Nutty Professor II receiving a TrueHD soundtrack option, while the first Bourne film gets "only" DD+, one has to wonder about the political and technical challenges surrounding the choice of soundtrack for these releases. Here's hoping that my blatherings above can draw some interesting responses from you crazy insider peeps.

4. I never said that 6.1 mixes were archived in 5.1... we create discrete 6.1 mix stems, and both matrix encoded and non matrix encoded printmasters. In the cases where we mix in 6.1 for the theatrical environment, the discrete elements will be used for the home video version when the client decides to do so.

And you are making the common mistake of confusing source channels with speaker channels. If you are in a 5.1 setup, and I panned something to the rear center, you will get a phantom center image of it, since the signal is equally in the LR and RR source. In a 7.1 setup, with a 5.1 input with DPLIIx decoding on it, that sound will end in the CS, wither in the mono CS in a 6.1 setup or in the LR RR in a 7.1 setup, and will stay out of the LB and RB channels. As another example, if I pan something between the LR, CS, and RS channels, in a 5.1 it will sound like it travels across the rear, and in a 7.1 playback, the transition across the back wall will be smoother.. same source, different reproduction.

There is phase manipulation that goes on in creating matrixed EX material (i.e. for the sake of having a mono sound stay in the LR and RR and not crashing into the CS) but it is much different that using a matrix encoder/decoder to derive a LCRS from two channels.. the steering artifacts are much less audible.

Hence my assertion that discrete surround channels will not sound that much different than matrix decoded material.

Your belief that most films are mixed with a mono surround track is wrong. As for your assertion that it is useless for most films, well I'll let that comment speak for itself. Even on my quiet dialog films, I always have true stereo surround information going on.

As to why some titles get a lossless encode, and others don't, that's a long story, and is based on many decisions. But you can't assume that"Borne" sounds deficient "only in DD+" because you have no idea what the master sounds like. What you should know is that you are hearing a first rate representation of the film makers work, and should be thrilled at that. We tend to spend way too much time debating this issue instead of enjoying the tracks... and since you, and most reviewers, aren't privy to the original masters, you shouldn't automatically assume that a lossy encode at 1.5kbps is automatically deficient.

Can't make that objective opinion with picture, and you can't make it for audio unless you've seen, or heard, the master and can compare the two.

On AVS, people find it very important to tier titles on picture quality or sound quality (which is usually just a subjective opinion on how much sub and surround information there is in a track.) IMO, the look and sound of the picture are there to do one thing... help tell a story. Some of my best work, what I am most proud of, is my most subdued. It's why I am at the point in my career that directors keep coming back to work with me.. because I don't, as a general rule, use sound for sounds sake, but I use it to help them tell their stories.

I hope that in the future that people on these boards remember that all this technology is here to let us enjoy movies and music, nothing else. Everybody has an opinion about how things look and sound, but I can tell you that with these new technologies, you are as close to the masters as ever. And just because 7.1 is the newest craze, you shouldn't believe you're missing out if it isn't on your favorite film... enjoy the movie, and don't fret about stuff you can't control. The studios, authoring houses, compressionists, mixers, DP's, editors, producers and directors do enough of that for you :)

And so I am no longer accused of being "purported," my name is Marc Fishman and if you would like a list of my credits, a quick search on IMDB will give you a good idea of some of my work. I have been involved over the last 17 years in sound, and have been very lucky to have been able to witness the advances in cinema and home theater digital sound firsthand.

Mods.. please feel free to post my name in the first post of this thread

Mods.. please feel free to post my name in the first post of this thread

Thank you Marc

done

please welcome zambelli


Alex Zambelli
Software Development Engineer in Test
Codec Team, Consumer Media Technology Group, Microsoft
VC-1 and WMV9 codec insider with Microsoft

A question to Marc. Are both our favorite HDM formats capable of delivering superb sonic quality?

Great post Marc! I totally agree with you about the subjective nature of sound mixes. To this day, I still think that Million Dollar Baby is one of the best sounding Dolby Digital Plus mixes on HD DVD, not because it is full of explosions and active surrounds. It is because the dialogue is so damn clear it sounds as if the narrator (Morgan Freeman) is sitting in the room with you speaking live...now that is a sign of a good mix.

My other favorite sound mix is We Were Soldiers on both BD and HD DVD...which I know was your work and it was excellent (with lots of bullets and explosions)!!!!

dear anyone who can help me,

how do i get the 360 to play quicktime videos or .mov videos through the zune application

Filmmixer Marc, what an educational, dynamite post.
Although I enjoy some of the juiced up soundtracks, it's the nuances that really stand out.
My very favs create the space\ambiance of the scene whether it's a One Hour Photo counter or a cave.
Thank you.

A question to Marc. Are both our favorite HDM formats capable of delivering superb sonic quality?

Yes... Is that a loaded question :)?

To the Microsoft guys,

Any chance we will see PC video capture cards/devices based on WMV/VC-1?

MPEG-2 analog hardware encoding and ATSC TS stream capture have been the norm for 3-4 years now in the HTPC space. And there are a few MPEG-4/DIVX capture cards.

But nothing with VC-1?

MPEG-2 at max bitrate (best quality) and ATSC stream capture are both pretty hefty in storage requirement, when you're talking about recording all your weekly tv shows as well as movie channels. A real-time VC-1 hardware card/usb device would, I bet, be a hit with the HTPC crowd.

It's my understanding that, as per the Dolby whitepaper, HD DVD contains a DD+ core for 5.1 channels (up to 1.5Mpbs), and an optional extension frame containing additional channels (replacing the surrounds and adding the rears) for a 7.1 mix (for a combined total of up to 3Mpbs. Is this correct?Basically, correct. What may differ from your description are the specific channels used for the 7.1 mode (could be backs, but could also be heights, wides, etc), and the bitrates of the frames. It is not necessary to use the same bitrate in the 5.1 core as the 4-ch extension. It is more efficient to use the equivalent per channel bitrate uniformly across the total. That's what the DD+ encoder does--the engineer selects the total bitrate, the encoder uses it to best advantage.

Assuming the answer to the above is "yes", I also understand that there is no DD core on HD DVD (only on Blu Ray). Any deck wishing to pass DD out on HD DVD would have a chipset that would re-encode the DD+ bitstream to a DD bitstream?Every DD+ decoder chip includes a converter that outputs a DD 640 stream without full DD+ decoding and DD re-encoding. Reduces computation load, and avoids compounding coding artifacts.

There's been some confusion with DD+ on the two HD formats that I was hoping you could clear up for us. When used with HD DVD, does a DD+ track have a DD core? The same question goes for BD - does a DD+ track (when used with BD) contain a DD track? If so, is it possible for players (on either format) to simply "strip" away the extensions and output DD without converting the track? If it's only possible on one format or the other, please specify.

Thanks again for all of the information!The HD DVD format's use of DD+ employs a converter to output standard DD, if/when the player is able to bypass the mixer. The BD format uses a DD core for the first 5.1 "DD+" channels, so will not use any conversion for the DD output, if/when BD begins using DD+ for 6.1 or 7/1-ch programs.

The HD DVD format's use of DD+ employs a converter to output standard DD, if/when the player is able to bypass the mixer. The BD format uses a DD core for the first 5.1 "DD+" channels, so will not use any conversion for the DD output, if/when BD begins using DD+ for 6.1 or 7/1-ch programs.
Much appreciated, Mr. Dressler. Thanks again!

Good to know, thanks.

So, the Sony BD v. Universal HD DVD is really 1.5 Mbps 24-bit versus PCM 16-bit.

I wonder how that changes people's expectations for relative quality...I cannot confirm what source was used to make any given DD+ file.


Thanks. That is interesting, given that I think that Warner has been using 16/48 for their DD+ tracks. Is there any good reason they would do that with no compression advantage in DD+ over 24/48? My only speculation on that matter was posted here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10522379&&#post10522379) a little earlier.

Hi Roger can you go into a bit more on how the conversion happens if it is not decoding and reincoding?

Every DD+ decoder chip includes a converter that outputs a DD 640 stream without full DD+ decoding and DD re-encoding. Reduces computation load, and avoids compounding coding artifacts.

The HD DVD format's use of DD+ employs a converter to output standard DD, if/when the player is able to bypass the mixer. The BD format uses a DD core for the first 5.1 "DD+" channels, so will not use any conversion for the DD output, if/when BD begins using DD+ for 6.1 or 7/1-ch programs.

Hello Roger and thanks for participating, your presence is much appreciated!

I'm a bit confused (<-- bad pun :p ). Why would the DD+ be converted to DD in an HD DVD output scenario?

Yes... Is that a loaded question :)?

FilmMixer,

Thanx for all your invaluable information and experience!

I see via IMDB that you worked on a FireFly episode or two. If FireFly, a TV series which has alread been released to DVD, were to be re-released on BD/HD DVD, would a person in your role/position be utilized? If yes, how so? If not, why not?

FilmMixer,

Thanx for all your invaluable information and experience!

I see via IMDB that you worked on a FireFly episode or two. If FireFly, a TV series which has alread been released to DVD, were to be re-released on BD/HD DVD, would a person in your role/position be utilized? If yes, how so? If not, why not?

In this specific case, no. We mixed "Firefly" in 5.1, and those masters would be used for any new formats... why the DVD's have LtRt's on them is beyond me... BTW, I only mixed one episode to fill in for some vacationing mixer, but it was a great experience...

It is very rare nowadays that TV isn't finished in 5.1, since almost all network and cable (i.e. HBO, Showtime, etc.) original programming is delievered in HD.... The older shows that are repurposed for DVD/HD DVD/BR are, for the most part, done by a completely seperate entity than the original production unit... and therefore it is very rare that the original mixing crews will be involved...

Basically, correct. What may differ from your description are the specific channels used for the 7.1 mode (could be backs, but could also be heights, wides, etc), and the bitrates of the frames. It is not necessary to use the same bitrate in the 5.1 core as the 4-ch extension. It is more efficient to use the equivalent per channel bitrate uniformly across the total. That's what the DD+ encoder does--the engineer selects the total bitrate, the encoder uses it to best advantage.

Every DD+ decoder chip includes a converter that outputs a DD 640 stream without full DD+ decoding and DD re-encoding. Reduces computation load, and avoids compounding coding artifacts.

Roger, thanks for the explanation.

Would I be correct in assuming that the chip that does the transcoding does so by using the existing quantized data (bit values, exponent encoding, etc...) and transferring it in-tact to the new codec where possible, so as to avoid the complete decode/encode process and the resulting accumulative error?

In other words: reuse common data where possible across the two differing codecs, and only unroll the newer DD+ features that a DD decoder wouldn't be able to digest?

Much appreciated, Mr. Dressler. Thanks again!

I second that. Thank you Mr. Dressler. I appreciate you taking the time to answer our questions and seperating fact from fiction for us.

FlimMixer, your post about audio archiving was fasinating. The time you and the other insiders spend here is greatly appricated. I really enjoy reading this thread every day or more often.

I looked up your credit list on imdb, wow. You've been a part of some great movies, tv shows, video games. I'm wondering what is the time frame for a project, is a tv show is a day, a movie a week? Also, is a video game different for you than a TV show or a Movie?

Adam

Amirm or Ben,
When the HD DVD audio update comes out will it be available to everyone or just to people who have the HD DVD add on drive. Also will we have the option of just passing through WMA Pro audio, (when watching WMV movies or listening to WMA Pro audo files) instead of having them reencoded again to WMA?

Amirm or Ben,
When the HD DVD audio update comes out will it be available to everyone or just to people who have the HD DVD add on drive. Also will we have the option of just passing through WMA Pro audio, (when watching WMV movies or listening to WMA Pro audo files) instead of having them reencoded again to WMA?
The option currently is for HD DVD playback only. Using it for gaming requires more work to make sure the performance of games is not impacted.

FlimMixer, your post about audio archiving was fasinating. The time you and the other insiders spend here is greatly appricated. I really enjoy reading this thread every day or more often.

I looked up your credit list on imdb, wow. You've been a part of some great movies, tv shows, video games. I'm wondering what is the time frame for a project, is a tv show is a day, a movie a week? Also, is a video game different for you than a TV show or a Movie?

Adam

Adam.. I am sure I can speak for a lot of the others around here, but thanks for the nice comments... I am so lucky to be a part of what I am doing, and I love it. And I love this forum.. If I can share my passion for films, it's the least I can do for all the great information and information I glean from others around here..... so thank you.

The time frames are all different... I have only worked on a handful of video games, and they are a different animal completely... Since most of the work in that field is handled by an audio director and their teams, they are on projects for months or years on end.

As far as television work goes, as a general rule, 1 hour dramas mix for two days... sometimes more, sometimes 1 day.. MOW's, as a general rule, mix in three to four days, with a fix for fixes and mastering..

Films are governed alot more by budget... and we usually do what we call "temps" for preview screenings or to show the studios.. we usually get between 2 to 5 days to do a temp, and it is a good starting template for how the show is going to sound in the end.

For the final mix, and as a very general rule, I get 1 week to predub (pre mix) the dialog, 1 week to predub the sound effects, design, foley and background, and 6-8 days to do the final mix, with another 1 to 2 days for fixes, and then 1 to 2 days each for printmastering and M and E's (music and effects masters that are then shipped to foreign territories to then have the dubbed dialog mixed in.)

Some films mix less... on "When A Stranger Calls" we did no premixing, and finaled for 8 days... on "Open Water" we did one week of dialog premixing, and one week of finaling. On a huge, big budget fx film, you might have two or three different crews just doing sound effects predubs for three weeks, dialog crews for two to three weeks and 4 to 6 weeks of final mixing..

All of these examples are ever changing, so don't hold my feet to the fire about them.

Filmmixer,

Thank you for all your input. Just as important as the techical Q/A, I'm glad you spoke up about the audio masters. What's sad is that while enthusiasts have always been "spen whores" they're taking it to a whole new extreme is this format war. Mainly since specs are what make them different. Its very refreshing to see, when a person actually working on the materials, provides their input on the subject of endless debates involving people who have no possible control over the release or an ability to do an A/B comparison with the master. So they cling onto their precious spec sheets and fight like it's DDay.

Every DD+ decoder chip includes a converter that outputs a DD 640 stream without full DD+ decoding and DD re-encoding. Reduces computation load, and avoids compounding coding artifacts.

What about software decoders (i.e. Xbox 360 HD DVD add on/PowerDVD) - do they follow the same behavior as the chips, or are the software decoders independently implemented?

Also, for Dolby TrueHD, is there a similar mechanism, or being a lossless codec there was nothing to gain by sharing quantization values and such (I really don't understand audio compression theory at all).

Finally, I've heard before that if you're going to re-encode, it's best to use a different codec. I.e. an MP3 re-encoded to another MP3 at the same bitrate will lose quality, JPEG image saved again as JPEG will lose quality, etc. From that quote, it sounds like it would be less lossy for a DD+ to be transcoded to DD instead of say DTS? How about other conversions? Specifically (after the HD DVD update), the Xbox 360 will be able to output DD 640, DTS 1.5, or WMA Pro (not sure on the bitrate)... for both DD+ and DTHD, what would the best output setting be? From a much earlier post, Amir hinted that WMA Pro is the highest quality audio codec the 360 can output... would that be true across the board?

First of all, Marc, thank you so very much for taking time on mother's day to respond, far more detail than I was expecting. However, before I get into this I want to make something absolutely and perfectly clear - my use of "purported" was a slip, I meant it to be synonymous with "reported", without the connotation that there was some misrepresentation going on. I'm the first to admit that the typical response on fora such as this is to be skeptical of all types of posts, but I learned a long time ago that one of my biggest strengths is knowing what I don't know. It is with humility and respect I meant to frame the question, not to appear antagonistic. If that's how it came across, that's because of my sloppy prose and choice of words, not because of my intention.

Secondly, I have for fifteen years dabbled in audio production, electroacoustic composition, and other audio nerd things that do two things - give me enough knowledge to not know what the hell I'm talking about, and supreme respect for sound guys and the work that they do. I buy Mix mag and drool over equipment I don't know how to use. I purchase the glorious "Recording the Beatles" book to learn about the history and evolution of valve equipment in EMI's mixing desks from 61 through 70. I dream of sitting in Skywalker sound, tweaking the knobs as my favourite film plays (let alone chilling at Bob Ludwig's mastering room, with those speakers that have concrete bases - who knows if it helps them sound better, that's just so hardcore).

Now, to your responses:

1. Since we are talking about the advent of digital sound on film, I assume you are speaking of films since 1991 and onward.

Yeah, I was thinking post-Jurrasic Park, but mostly post introduction of DAW exclusively in the mixing environment - I figured, given format changes, etc., that there may be a "safety" mag of LCRS archived, in the same way that dye transfer prints are stored for celuloid.

It is becoming more and more common to deliver a show in uncompressed PCM .BWAV files (broadcast wave). Most people concur that this is a file that will have a long shelf life, and since it isn't tied to any proprietary format, it is a safe digital asset (i.e. not tied to the certain hot workstation.)

This is exactly what I was getting at, whether there was a more rigorous, professional, multiplatform format for storing m/c mixes from a variety of workstation sources. This leads to other questions however - are only final mixes stored, or are automation files for the mixing board, pre-mixes, DAW files, etc. archived in some standardized way. I'd assume for the latter that this would be up to the individual mixing dept. and filmmakers, but in the same way that editing stems are sometimes collected, it's interesting to me to see what pre-complete process elements are preserved for posterity


2. I take exception with that analysis. As I said earlier, for the past 15 years, a majority of films have been mixed in discrete 6 channel, and if a 5.1 didn't exist, you got the LtRt on the disc.. there may have been some matrix extractions done originally, but this was never the norm. If you can point me to the titles you are referring to that you know are 5.1's from a decoded LtRt, let me know... I don't know of any.

First of all, let me assure you (as above) that there was no analysis going on there, just conjecture...:) Secondly, I was thinking of films that were older and may have had m/c mixes at one point in time, but the archive only preserved the stereo mix. Take something like Milos Forman's Hair, and older film that I assume (yeah, I could look) probably had a 4ch mix accomplished (LCRS?), but the SD DVD sounds to me like little more than a pro-logic II pass on a 2ch master. While prestige titles like Star Wars would of -course- have the effort and expense spent on creating truly discrete 5.1 mixes from the original discrete 6ch elements (and, again, I'm glossing over the 70mm 6ch mix vs. the 35mm mix vs. the mono mix, all which has been documented many times for this film in particular), I simply assumed that there are many times that in the drive to get a DVD out that uses the fancy 5.1 setting that 2ch mixes were put through a process to open up the rear soundstage and provide a consistent center channel because it looks better on the box (see your final comments below). Note that I'm -assuming- and -guessing- here, I've literally got no idea what has been done in the past...

But you need to understand something else.. when we printmaster a film, we create discrete uncompressed PCM masters that are used to make the lossy codecs used for theatrical distribution..

That's actually what I had assumed to be the case, and what I hoped to be what was preserved (see above).


3. As per above, there maybe be different encodes of the masters, but the encodes come from the same master.. i.e. there is no consideration into what format the audio will be encoded. This isn't to say that the encodes will sound the same, but the master is the same, and in the case of 16 bit masters, have never delivered one on a film that was mixed in 24 bit, so any truncation, in my experience, is done by the studio or the encoder, and if it is either, I would almost always bet it was done for bit allocation issues, and not quality. And of course, the DD encode is going to be done separately from the DD+ or DTS HD or etc....

I guess what I was getting at was, in a consumer metaphor, people were creating mp3 192kb/s files from the master first, then making 360kb/s VBR mp3s, (or even lossless Flac files) from the original compressed file and releasing it as a higher bitrate version. It's a nefarious suggestion, one I'm not pegging on anyone, but it remains a question - if one format promises DD640kb/s, and other DD+1.5kb/s, is it safe to say that (whether or not you can hear the difference, a whole 'nother story) that the DD+ is closer data-wise to the master? What about DD vs. DD+ where the bitrate is the same?

And you are making the common mistake of confusing source channels with speaker channels. If you are in a 5.1 setup, and I panned something to the rear center, you will get a phantom center image of it, since the signal is equally in the LR and RR source. In a 7.1 setup, with a 5.1 input with DPLIIx decoding on it, that sound will end in the CS, wither in the mono CS in a 6.1 setup or in the LR RR in a 7.1 setup, and will stay out of the LB and RB channels. As another example, if I pan something between the LR, CS, and RS channels, in a 5.1 it will sound like it travels across the rear, and in a 7.1 playback, the transition across the back wall will be smoother.. same source, different reproduction.

I was trying hard to not make that common mistake by referring to "rear surround" instead of "side surround". At any rate, I think I'm running into real world mixing practices vs. the format's potential. Forgetting for a moment the layout, and think of the mix as 8 source signals on the board, playing eight unique parts. Then, mapping these unique channels to the FL/C/FR/SL/BL/SR/BR/SW layout, I could (white noise test? channel identification?) send a unique signal to -each- of these speakers in turn. In the case of 6.1 (or matrixed rear of 5.1 where you're mixing equal SL and SR to create phantom or non-phantom RC (rear centre)) I would be getting the same signal output from my BL and BR speakers. As you suggest, whether this is done at the mixing stage by panning to 90 degrees for those elements that are to be matrixed (or simply perceived by the ear) to be rear-center surround, or to have a unique signal associated for that, it maybe moot.

However (please bear with me, this might all be a mess, it's certainly making my head hurt!) I can picture a mix where when granted control to send signal to these specific channels you'd be able to have a far more subtle interaction between the side and rear surround speakers. In other words, where the matrix rolls off the panned-to-center signal and places that signal in the side speaker is the result of the selected processing method selected. On the other hand, being able to specifically direct sounds to a particular speaker, and be able to direct with great specificity in a panning from one speaker to the other how and when that occurs strikes me as an important tool. The discrete location of, say, a series of gunshots going across the back room would be able to be achieved with much greater precision, in theory, if you could place the shot in whatever speaker you choose. Where things get crazy, of course, is that if in fact you are mixing for discrete rear surrounds, you could of course mix a phantom center -between- BL and BR!

I'm no doubt confusing the issue all to hell - I'm trying to suggest that discrete 7.1 mixes could avoid -any- steering artifacts. Whether or not there is any creative advantage to this is another story. Give ALL of that madness, are there any true, discrete theatrical 7.1 presentations? IMAX with its second CC maybe? If for all intents and purposes CH6 and 7 of your 7.1 are a shared signal for theatrical, and that this signal could just as easily (and without a dramatic difference in perception) be made by adroit mixing of the side surround channels and dexterous matrix decoding, then we're back to where you started, namely, that the difference between a 5.1 mix and a 7.1 mix at home (with all the caveats above) are pretty damn close to being identical.

Your belief that most films are mixed with a mono surround track is wrong.
..again, I specifically mentioned -rear- surround mono tracks, namely, the "sixth" chanel being for all intents mono (all those speakers at the back of the theatre pulling the same signal from either the decoder or matrix box.


As for your assertion that it is useless for most films, well I'll let that comment speak for itself. Even on my quiet dialog films, I always have true stereo surround information going on.

Of course! However, I'm assuming they don't have stereo -rear- surround information! :)


As to why some titles get a lossless encode, and others don't, that's a long story, and is based on many decisions. But you can't assume that"Borne" sounds deficient "only in DD+" because you have no idea what the master sounds like.
This, in the end, was one of my (many, many) points, that I've got no idea about the master quality, and that TrueHD doesn't make something immediately good (or compressed soundtracks immediately bad). However, I can assume, from above, that as a modern film there at least -exists- a lossless archived mix, and that this mix -could- have been used, if the studios had wanted to.


What you should know is that you are hearing a first rate representation of the film makers work, and should be thrilled at that. We tend to spend way too much time debating this issue instead of enjoying the tracks... and since you, and most reviewers, aren't privy to the original masters, you shouldn't automatically assume that a lossy encode at 1.5kbps is automatically deficient.

...nor should we assume that we are hearing differences in -quality- when comparing mixes that have different -levels- (particularly of bass or surround levels) - a charge that many leveled against DTS, particularly on some Spielberg titles, where the -mixes- were different, promoting people to pass judgements on the compression codecs.


I hope that in the future that people on these boards remember that all this technology is here to let us enjoy movies and music, nothing else. Everybody has an opinion about how things look and sound, but I can tell you that with these new technologies, you are as close to the masters as ever. And just because 7.1 is the newest craze, you shouldn't believe you're missing out if it isn't on your favorite film... enjoy the movie, and don't fret about stuff you can't control. The studios, authoring houses, compressionists, mixers, DP's, editors, producers and directors do enough of that for you :)

Lord knows you've no time to read anything else I'd post on this thread, but we are totally in agreement here, and I've many times made similar claims. So many are missing the enjoyment of the film in favour of the fetishization of the technology. That said, I hope my clarifications (and further confusions above!) do a better job of articulating not only my genuine interest of this process -as a film lover-, but as someone with an appreciation for the art of sound presentation and mixing.

Thanks Amirm

I appreciate it

I'm a bit confused (<-- bad pun :p ). Why would the DD+ be converted to DD in an HD DVD output scenario?For connection to a legacy AVR through S/PDIF.

Hi Roger can you go into a bit more on how the conversion happens if it is not decoding and reincoding?
Would I be correct in assuming that the chip that does the transcoding does so by using the existing quantized data (bit values, exponent encoding, etc...) and transferring it in-tact to the new codec where possible, so as to avoid the complete decode/encode process and the resulting accumulative error?

In other words: reuse common data where possible across the two differing codecs, and only unroll the newer DD+ features that a DD decoder wouldn't be able to digest?Yes! Much of what changed between DD and DD+ is syntax (structural), not coding operations. One prominent example is the option for shorter frame sizes. It means certain header information occurs more regularly, and some of this data gets stripped out when converting back to DD. The output block structure and bit allocation are all retained. There’s of course more to it, but I think you get the idea. If you want more detail, there is of course a white paper (http://www.dolby.com/assets/pdf/tech_library/pa_at_AES%20Intro%20to%20Dolby%20Digital%20Plus.pdf) . Section 6 (page 22) covers this topic in morbid detail.

@Roger Dressler, thanks four your replies here, much appreciated!

Another question: What is your stance about open source decoders for Dolby formats? Do you consider them legal? Can Dolby software decoders generally be developed without having to pay fees? The Linux crowd is currently short of E-AC3 and TrueHD decoders. I understand that an open source E-AC3 decoder is in the works, thanks to openly available format specification. But it seems that specifications for TrueHD are not readily available. Would you consider making TrueHD specifications available to support open source development?

@Amir/Ben: Would you mind trying to find out which bitdepth Warner and Universal (and Paramount) are feeding into the DD+ encoder for the HD-DVD releases? If it's not yet the full bitrate of the master, maybe the studios could be convinced to go the extra mile for that last 1% of sound quality? I mean it wouldn't cost one bit more space/bandwidth, so it sounds like a good option to me!

Also: Is there a chance you could convince Warner to use 1.5Mbps instead of 640kbps for those discs which don't have a TrueHD track?

@Paidgeek, do you know which bitdepth Sony is feeding into the DD encoder?

Thank you!!

Question for paidgeek: Is Sony planning to release any Bollywood on BR? They have rights to "Mission Kashmir" , "Lagaan" and some others, don't they?

FilmMixer,
Thanks so much for your time (and all the insiders actually). My question is reguarding the final "finished" mix. In general who decides an audio mix is complete? Is this done with ears only or some sort of visual representation of the levels etc also?

is it true that I MUST have the add--on conenected to the console, or when connecting to LiVE will it download automaticlly??

Also, will the update make the selection of DTS or DD automaticlly??

Yes, you need the add-on connected, as the player software is stored on the drive itself: no drive, no software.

No, you select your preference for audio re-encoding.

@Roger Dressler, thanks four your replies here, much appreciated!

Another question: What is your stance about open source decoders for Dolby formats? Do you consider them legal? Can Dolby software decoders generally be developed without having to pay fees? The Linux crowd is currently short of E-AC3 and TrueHD decoders. I understand that an open source E-AC3 decoder is in the works, thanks to openly available format specification. But it seems that specifications for TrueHD are not readily available. Would you consider making TrueHD specifications available to support open source development? Regardless of my opinion, open source decoders, the development or use thereof, technically, is illegal, as I guess goes without saying. It's a patent thing. Hence Dolby does not make any efforts to help these come into existence. It doesn't really cost much to do it legitimately, and with the reference code and support/test materials Dolby provides, the outcome is assured. End of shameless plug. :)

On AVS, people find it very important to tier titles on picture quality or sound quality (which is usually just a subjective opinion on how much sub and surround information there is in a track.) IMO, the look and sound of the picture are there to do one thing... help tell a story. Some of my best work, what I am most proud of, is my most subdued. It's why I am at the point in my career that directors keep coming back to work with me.. because I don't, as a general rule, use sound for sounds sake, but I use it to help them tell their stories.

I hope that in the future that people on these boards remember that all this technology is here to let us enjoy movies and music, nothing else. Everybody has an opinion about how things look and sound, but I can tell you that with these new technologies, you are as close to the masters as ever. And just because 7.1 is the newest craze, you shouldn't believe you're missing out if it isn't on your favorite film... enjoy the movie, and don't fret about stuff you can't control. The studios, authoring houses, compressionists, mixers, DP's, editors, producers and directors do enough of that for you :)


Marc the FilmMixer;

Nicely put.

IF I MAY RE-PRESENT TWO QUESTIONS FOR YOUR CONSIDERATION . . . . .

ONE

On some 5.1 HDTV broadcasts all I get from the rear channels is just the foley and babble / walla tracks. No music ambience, no effects, no nothing.
Mostly on CBS shows most recently SHARK.

I'm guessing this is a local encoder issue . . . . but how does that happen?

Have you ever noticed this? Has anyone ever done that deliberately?

TWO;

A quick one; what is the reason for using three VERY tightly spaced mics for
recording voices for animated films.

I see this all the time in videos from PIXAR . . like this one;

thanks,


-30-

__________________

This leads to other questions however - are only final mixes stored, or are automation files for the mixing board, pre-mixes, DAW files, etc. archived in some standardized way. I'd assume for the latter that this would be up to the individual mixing dept. and filmmakers, but in the same way that editing stems are sometimes collected, it's interesting to me to see what pre-complete process elements are preserved for posterity

Didn't take your response to be antagonistic at all :)

In the past couple of years, we have been delivering all cut elements and pre dubs to the clients, along with their corresponding DAW counterparts. If the film is mixed on a traditional console, we sometimes send backups of automation files and the like, but they aren't really going to be of any use in the future.

Take something like Milos Forman's Hair, and older film that I assume (yeah, I could look) probably had a 4ch mix accomplished (LCRS?), but the SD DVD sounds to me like little more than a pro-logic II pass on a 2ch master.


That's easy to find out.. just put your ear up to the L or R speaker during a dialog scene.. if ya hear bleeding of the dialog in the speakers, it's a 99% chance that it is a decode job (it could also be mag bleed).

It's a nefarious suggestion, one I'm not pegging on anyone, but it remains a question - if one format promises DD640kb/s, and other DD+1.5kb/s, is it safe to say that (whether or not you can hear the difference, a whole 'nother story) that the DD+ is closer data-wise to the master? What about DD vs. DD+ where the bitrate is the same?

I am not an expert on those things, and I think that Roger has sufficiently addressed those issues on this thread recently..


I'm no doubt confusing the issue all to hell - I'm trying to suggest that discrete 7.1 mixes could avoid -any- steering artifacts. Whether or not there is any creative advantage to this is another story. Give ALL of that madness, are there any true, discrete theatrical 7.1 presentations? IMAX with its second CC maybe? If for all intents and purposes CH6 and 7 of your 7.1 are a shared signal for theatrical, and that this signal could just as easily (and without a dramatic difference in perception) be made by adroit mixing of the side surround channels and dexterous matrix decoding, then we're back to where you started, namely, that the difference between a 5.1 mix and a 7.1 mix at home (with all the caveats above) are pretty damn close to being identical.

This, in the end, was one of my (many, many) points, that I've got no idea about the master quality, and that TrueHD doesn't make something immediately good (or compressed soundtracks immediately bad). However, I can assume, from above, that as a modern film there at least -exists- a lossless archived mix, and that this mix -could- have been used, if the studios had wanted to.

I agree with your assertion that discrete is always better... but in my opinion and experience, when listening to a rear sound field with your back turned to the speakers, it is very difficult to tell the difference between discrete and matrixed surround channels, and this becomes a rallying flag for some audio zealots round these parts :) and I see it as a minor issue.

The only theatrical 7.1 mixes are in SDDS, and they use 5 across the front. And just so I didn't confuse the issue, studios do use these lossless masters to encode from, whether from our printmaster or a home video remaster (i.e. New Line and Lions Gate.)

It is my pleasure to let you all know that the HD DVD udpate for Xbox 360 is slated for release on 5/15 (i.e. tomorrow!). So when you wake up in the morning, you should be able to upgrade your software. And me free from telling you when are going to get it :D. Hope you all download it and provide feedback on what you think!

And sorry I did not give more of a notice. I was out on the cruise and only now got around to getting the specific time/date for it.

FilmMixer,
Thanks so much for your time (and all the insiders actually). My question is reguarding the final "finished" mix. In general who decides an audio mix is complete? Is this done with ears only or some sort of visual representation of the levels etc also?

The director and picture editor are ususally the final voices.. although money plays a big part (feature film mixing stages run the client from between $800 - $1300 per hour, and the final mixes can be from 2 - 4 weeks) :)

When we final mix a film, after premixing, it is the mixers, supervising sound editor, music editor, film editor and director on the mixing stage... we start at the beginning and dub away. I like to start by running the reel down (film reels are on average 20 minutes per reel) with the faders up to hear what everybody has, and then we roll back to the top and start, usually going once through a scene, and then inching through the details.... and this is where we start to get a coherent mix.. we will throw things out, add things in, work the music, try it one way, then another, try alternate takes of dialog, lose music cues... etc. It's a fun process... Sometimes, if you have a car chase, for example, we have to decide if the sound effects are going to dominate, or the music.. if the effects win, I have to work really hard not to lose the music and get it through where I can... so we will go over and over it seconds of screen time at a time... Or when you have music that is played as source (i.e. from a radio or in a club) you have to get a sound for it (is it in the room or coming through the wall), mix it into the space and then mix it around the dialog so that you aren't stepping all over the words.

After we finish a reel, we will play it back and all take notes... raise music here, replace that door close there, etc....

We will then mix the other reels and fix those.

After that, we will assemble the mix so we can watch the film from beginning to end and take more notes.. still a lot of small detail notes, and making sure that one reel isn't out of balance level wise with the others (you mixes tend to get louder as the day wears on and your ears get tired).. somtimes go get big notes and then we will recut elements or try differnt directions.

Final fixes and then we move on to the mastering....

As a general rule, we mix ten hour days (9am - 7pm), and we do a lot of overtime and weekends to hit dates.

Sorry for the long answer to your short question.

Marc the FilmMixer;

Nicely put.

IF I MAY RE-PRESENT TWO QUESTIONS FOR YOUR CONSIDERATION . . . . .

ONE

On some 5.1 HDTV broadcasts all I get from the rear channels is just the foley and babble / walla tracks. No music ambience, no effects, no nothing.
Mostly on CBS shows most recently SHARK.

I'm guessing this is a local encoder issue . . . . but how does that happen?

Have you ever noticed this? Has anyone ever done that deliberately?

TWO;

A quick one; what is the reason for using three VERY tightly spaced mics for
recording voices for animated films.

I see this all the time in videos from PIXAR . . like this one;

thanks,


-30-



As per your first question, that's a weird one.. some people mix differently, but what you are hearing isn't normal, and sounds like an enocde error, or some strange affiliate issue.

On to the second question... I am no miking expert, and never got into that part of the process (live sound scares me too much, I'm more of a multi take guy :)) However, that picture looks like it is setup to look cool for the camera.. because the first mic is blocking the other two..... but they may be using the back two mics in an M/S pair to get some stereo ambience for the recording.. I will pass the picture along to some of our ADR mixers and get back to you on that.

It is my pleasure to let you all know that the HD DVD udpate for Xbox 360 is slated for release on 5/15 (i.e. tomorrow!). So when you wake up in the morning, you should be able to upgrade your software. And me free from telling you when are going to get it :D. Hope you all download it and provide feedback on what you think!

And sorry I did not give more of a notice. I was out on the cruise and only now got around to getting the specific time/date for it.

Thanks! Will the update be run upon connection to Live or when a HD-DVD disc is played?

It is my pleasure to let you all know that the HD DVD udpate for Xbox 360 is slated for release on 5/15 (i.e. tomorrow!). So when you wake up in the morning, you should be able to upgrade your software. And me free from telling you when are going to get it :D. Hope you all download it and provide feedback on what you think!

And sorry I did not give more of a notice. I was out on the cruise and only now got around to getting the specific time/date for it.

Cheers Amir, been a long wait for this one (was worthy of my first post!)

Should be a good day, DTS fix AND the Matrix boxset in one day :D :D

It is my pleasure to let you all know that the HD DVD udpate for Xbox 360 is slated for release on 5/15 (i.e. tomorrow!).

Great news Amir! :D

One question: will the update be prompted to all Xbox360s or only to the consoles with the HD DVD player connected?

Amir or another MS insider,
My 360 died last week and I am right now waiting for a replacement voucher from Best Buy. My question (which I am sure I can call and find out later but would like to ask here) is what happens to the movie I downloaded and have not yet seen? Will I be asked to download it again or if I keep the hard drive I have it on will I be charged to view it? I watched the first 20 seconds when my 360 died. By the way it was the Horrorfest 1st double feature.

Thanks in advance

Great news Amir! :D

One question: will the update be prompted to all Xbox360s or only to the consoles with the HD DVD player connected?

I know there is a check on insertion of a new HD DVD. Not sure about otherwise but I have the question into the team. Will let you know what I find out.

In general, the update only applies to playing HD DVDs. So there would be no need to apply it to the console itself. But I assume your question relates to having the software, and adding the drive later...

This is very good news about the HD DVD player update........just in time for the Matrix Trilogy! :D Hopefully it will be a glitch free update.

It is my pleasure to let you all know that the HD DVD udpate for Xbox 360 is slated for release on 5/15 (i.e. tomorrow!). So when you wake up in the morning, you should be able to upgrade your software. And me free from telling you when are going to get it :D. Hope you all download it and provide feedback on what you think!

And sorry I did not give more of a notice. I was out on the cruise and only now got around to getting the specific time/date for it.
This is fantastic news. I assume it's a worldwide release and not just the US.

Amir,

Excellent news!

Any idea when it will be available to download off the web for those of us who still don't have access to broadband? I'm still waiting for the dashboard update to come up on-line...

Thanks for all your hard work!

Amir,

I have a question about the update (thanks for getting it to us, btw!).
Supposedly there will be a way to toggle DRC on/off (for DD+ only? or for TrueHD as well?), as well as a re-sample to DD or DTS option.

Where will these options appear for us to access? In the Dashboard?

And are there any other changes besides the below?
-Fixing a/v sync issues
-Fixing disc read/ compatibility issues with various discs
-Adding DRC/Night Mode toggle option
-Adding option to select DTS versus DD for audio re-sampling output

Thanks!

Dear amirm,

THis is great news thank you very much and good work on this new update for the hd dvd player, but i have a question. How does the hd dvd group plan on beating blu-ray cause i think there is alot more things hd dvd could be doing. Like are there other timed exclusive titles coming to hd dvd like the matrix trilogy? And i also think some retailers should offer the 360 elite with the 360 hd dvd player packaged together for 600 bucks, I think that would generate alot more players sold as well.

Is windows media pro 1.5mbs still an option for audio out? My pioneer VSX59TXI is dying to do this.
Thanks in advance.

It is my pleasure to let you all know that the HD DVD udpate for Xbox 360 is slated for release on 5/15 (i.e. tomorrow!). So when you wake up in the morning, you should be able to upgrade your software. And me free from telling you when are going to get it :D. Hope you all download it and provide feedback on what you think!

And sorry I did not give more of a notice. I was out on the cruise and only now got around to getting the specific time/date for it.


Amir,


I think this is THE greatest news I've ever received on this forum. It has been a long time coming and I'm confident it will be well worth the wait. Please check out the feedback thread I've started in the HD DVD Players section for everyone's feedback on the forthcoming update. Kudos to you and your team working hard on getting this update out to us! I hope this will stop all of us hounding you for a fix/release date :p

Thanks! Will the update be run upon connection to Live or when a HD-DVD disc is played?

You will be prompted for the update when you launch the Xbox 360 HD DVD player while connected to Xbox Live. Please note that this is a free update for both Gold and Silver members.

Thanks for the reply Andy I didn't knew that the add-on actually stored anything I tought that the console did it.

And thanks amir for the news!!! Only one question comes to my mind, would there be possible to download it and burn it, or that's out of the queestion for tomorrow and would have to wait for say, days or so to actually do it??

Thanks!!!

It is my pleasure to let you all know that the HD DVD udpate for Xbox 360 is slated for release on 5/15 (i.e. tomorrow!). So when you wake up in the morning, you should be able to upgrade your software. And me free from telling you when are going to get it :D. Hope you all download it and provide feedback on what you think!

And sorry I did not give more of a notice. I was out on the cruise and only now got around to getting the specific time/date for it.
Good news Amir, I'm excited about this and I don't even own an XBox 360 yet. Any word on when MS will be releasing their own HD DVD solution for Vista Media Center x64? ;)

Amir,

I have a question about the update (thanks for getting it to us, btw!).
Supposedly there will be a way to toggle DRC on/off (for DD+ only? or for TrueHD as well?), as well as a re-sample to DD or DTS option.

Where will these options appear for us to access? In the Dashboard?No, in the player software itself. Accessible by pressing the "Display" button with the remote, or hitting "start" or "B" on the gamepad and selecting "Advanced"

And are there any other changes besides the below?
-Fixing a/v sync issues
-Fixing disc read/ compatibility issues with various discs
-Adding DRC/Night Mode toggle option
-Adding option to select DTS versus DD for audio re-sampling output

Thanks!Yes, there are many more changes than those, most, however, not customer facing. One of the UI changes is the addition of a network settings dialog, and adding UI for buttons that the remote doesn't have (like Angle and Subtitles)

Is part of the 360 HD DVD update a firmware update?

No, in the player software itself. Accessible by pressing the "Display" button with the remote, or hitting "start" or "B" on the gamepad and selecting "Advanced"

hopefully not too rediculous a question...will the hd dvd add-on retain in memory the last chosen option, or will one have to toggle said switch before each and every movie session?

Thanks Roger for the answer and the white paper

will the Nine Inch Nails TrueHD track be fixed?

will the Nine Inch Nails TrueHD track be fixed?

And Poseidon? For some reason, the Dolby TrueHD tracks on those movies have terrible popping and other problems when played through the HD DVD add on.......hopefully this update fixes that issue.

Any chance we will see PC video capture cards/devices based on WMV/VC-1?
I think Inlet (www.inlethd.com) and Digital Rapids (www.digital-rapids.com) have both done some work on hardware solutions that capture to WMV9/VC-1, though I'm not sure whether they're capturing uncompressed YUV and transcoding on the fly (with DSPs) or actually capturing directly to VC-1.

I don't think a consumer priced PCI card for capturing to VC-1 exists at this point.

MPEG-2 analog hardware encoding and ATSC TS stream capture have been the norm for 3-4 years now in the HTPC space. And there are a few MPEG-4/DIVX capture cards.
MPEG-2 encoding is not as computationally intensive as VC-1 and H.264 so I imagine we might have to wait a little before those become common. Also, it's demand that drives the market. Those interested in analog to digital video capture might prefer lossless YUV capture. HTPC environments (such as MCE) are moving away from analog TV to digital TV so there'll be less need for analog capture cards as we move forward.

It is my pleasure to let you all know that the HD DVD udpate for Xbox 360 is slated for release on 5/15 (i.e. tomorrow!). So when you wake up in the morning, you should be able to upgrade your software. And me free from telling you when are going to get it :D. Hope you all download it and provide feedback on what you think!

And sorry I did not give more of a notice. I was out on the cruise and only now got around to getting the specific time/date for it.

Dear Amir,

Thanks, great work and thanks for your trouble in keeping us updated. :)

My Samsung M86 1080p TV accepts 1920x1080 from PC but not from my Xbox 360, is this due to Horiz / Vert Freq or Pixel Clock Freq?
The TV takes the following:

Res: 1920 x 1080
H Freq: 66.537 kHz
V Freq: 59.934 kHz
Pixel Clock Freq: 138.500

As the TV works with a PC, Samsung don't feel they have to change anything, and the Elite is not released in the UK til November, I have the HD DVD player, but am missing out on 1080p for both HD & SD DVDs as i am forced to use component.

Can you offer any advice / thoughts?

Regards

GL

Hi Amir

Please send my thanks to the hd-dvd team at microsoft.
The audio update installed successfully on my xbox360 and everything appears to be working.

I have to admit, the updated UI is flawed.
Who decided to hide the audio settings in the software player?

Surely it would make more sense to have them in the settings blade like all the other settings on my xbox - after all, it is the metaphor that microsoft has already established - so no reason to break it. Even system-wide preferences for menu audio are ignored in the hd-dvd software!
This decision has complicated the user experience and I would appreciate it if you could pass this observation along.

My copy of King Kong has never sounded as good as it does today but when changing the audio output from dolby digital 5.1 to dts while playing the main feature, i notice a significant drop in volume and also a noticeable lack of audio detail.
In my general experiences of dts and my understanding that the bitrate of the dolby output is lower, I would have expected this to be the other way round.

Is there a reason why this is happening?

Pls one important question, the night mode, is it that option that says Digital compresion something?? if so, we should leave it off to avoid the problems that there was in the past rigth??? or is it something else???

Thanks!

I'll auto reply to myself, indedd, leaving it off kills the nigth mode.

But the funny part is this.

I enabled the DTS option, and used movies that actually had 1.5 Mbps tracks, like Superman Retunrs, Alexander, Enemy at the Gates, and such, and man, having that nigth thingy off, makes is sound brutal, BUT in DD. When I swich to DTS I get a more soft track, like if the nigth mode was on (wich is not).

Really weird, but after testing it, I 'll keep the DD option over the DTS (I have a Yamaha 6.1 A/V so I'm guessing is not that) and without the nigth mode on, I'm more than happy.

Silly, that after all this time, DTS doesn't meet with wht I wanted, but DD makes the trick.

Hi Amirm/microsoft insider,

I have noticed on the UK AV forums as well as these forums that, after the HD-DVD update, people are expriencing inferior quality sound from the DTS output option rather than the DD option. Some are saying it sounds soft and muffled. Can you confirm if there is another 'issue' with the audio ?

Another quick question, please do not take this question as an insult....but when the audio patch was finished did someone actually take time to listen to the two output options and compare DD v DTS ? If yes what did they find ?

I have yet to test the patch so I am unable to confirm that I have the same problems that others are having.

Thanks.

Can anyone possibly answer, why oh why, has neither firmware V1.3 or V1.5 been released to the Australian market yet? I was one of the lucky several, that was able to get one of the first players in the initial small shipment that was allocated to our fair shores. The current (till May 31st) supplier has absolutely no idea that firmware even exists past V1.2. They have tried to ask Toshiba, but like when I call, they too get bounced around departments with verbal blank stares.

Is it really that hard to upload the firmware, for our revision of the HD-E1, on the server that the player is set to search from so we can download it?

I'd love to be able to playback some of the problem discs known to be fixed with the updates.

Packet of Tim Tams for any insider that can leave a shoe up the arse of Toshiba to get this done ASAP... payable on visit to Australia... :)

And Poseidon? For some reason, the Dolby TrueHD tracks on those movies have terrible popping and other problems when played through the HD DVD add on.......hopefully this update fixes that issue.

Beside you in time DTS-HD track now works great, even the audio calibration on the NIN HD-DVD works now when set to DTS-HD.

However, it still outputs the signal as DD 5.1, not DTS like Amir stated was possible. I'm wondering if I missed an option somewhere, I didn't have much time this morning to check it out, though...

Another one for paidgeek

I have heard that the current version on the Fifth Element has "officially been discontinued" with the new version due to ship as of Juy 17. I have also heard that retailers will sell through their current stock.

Living in Australia and relying on internet mail order for my discs, is there any way to differentiate this new version from the old one? I usually order from Amazon, but who knows what their stock levels are like and if I order after that date I would have no idea which version I would get (and if they have a huge stock level this could be the case for months).

Will this re-release get a proper new release ie new coverart or some remastered banner or an entirely new sku or am I stuck with pot luck. I have held off on this release in the hopes of getting a remaster.

One other question, is a remaster for House of Flying Daggers in the works at all.

I have kept my questions to Sony releases as I am aware this is your area of expertise.

Thanks for your time.

Momaw

MS Guys,
The 360 update is working as expected when playing a HD-DVD. I can switch between DD, DTS and WMA Pro with the receiver recognizing all three and switching automatically. The update has not enabled WMA Pro output when playing video downloads from the hard drive or when playing Microsoft demo videos from my newly installed Windows Home Media Server. I know the MS demo material can output WMA Pro because it does when I play it through my HTPC. I do have the DD plus WMA Pro output enabled on the Console Settings in the System blade. Apparently it is still not functioning as expected. Will this be fixed in the 2008 Spring update?

amir/ben/andy:

will we ever see a bitrate meter for the hd dvd addon player? i don't understand why many bd players have this feature yet we see it nowhere on the hd dvd side.

i know that it is generally only something that geeks are interested in, but nonetheless, it seems simple enough to implement :)

TIA

btw, great job on the update for the hd dvd addon player...i think you should make the update take much longer to "download/install" ... it was too fast and didn't feel commensurate with how long many waited for it to be available :D

Amir (or any other HD-DVD insider)

Big Sopranos fan and very pleased to see Michael Imperioli selected as a HD-DVD spokesman. Can you share any other tidbits as to why/how this selection occured? Is he really a big hi-def fan? (I'll leave the fancy questions re: codecs and such to smarter people than myself!)

Amir,

I have a question about the update (thanks for getting it to us, btw!).
Supposedly there will be a way to toggle DRC on/off (for DD+ only? or for TrueHD as well?), as well as a re-sample to DD or DTS option.

Where will these options appear for us to access? In the Dashboard?

And are there any other changes besides the below?
-Fixing a/v sync issues
-Fixing disc read/ compatibility issues with various discs
-Adding DRC/Night Mode toggle option
-Adding option to select DTS versus DD for audio re-sampling output

Thanks!
I put some info on my blog http://blogs.msdn.com/andypennell/archive/2007/05/12/xbox-360-hd-dvd-update-now-available.aspx but the answer is Yes to everything. Well except the options are in the Player, not the Dashboard.

However, it still outputs the signal as DD 5.1, not DTS like Amir stated was possible. I'm wondering if I missed an option somewhere, I didn't have much time this morning to check it out, though...
I think you missed the option: pop up the Player UI and choose Audio Options.

ms insiders:

any word on shawshank redemption? have the MS folks seen/worked with this title yet?

Beside you in time DTS-HD track now works great, even the audio calibration on the NIN HD-DVD works now when set to DTS-HD.

However, it still outputs the signal as DD 5.1, not DTS like Amir stated was possible. I'm wondering if I missed an option somewhere, I didn't have much time this morning to check it out, though...

Yeah, you missed the option. While the movie is playing, press the "Display" button on the remote and choose "Digital Audio Settings" (or something like that) and then choose you audio option.

Think this was asked, but couldn't find a responce. Once we set the add on to the new setting (such as DTS or WMA pro) do we have to change it each time we watch something? Or does it save the setting?

Thank you BTW. All of you insiders are great to have here and this makes for an extremely interesting thread.

Think this was asked, but couldn't find a responce. Once we set the add on to the new setting (such as DTS or WMA pro) do we have to change it each time we watch something? Or does it save the setting?

Thank you BTW. All of you insiders are great to have here and this makes for an extremely interesting thread.

Boomster - I am not an insider, and it can be a bit taboo answering questions around here I think if your not, but this seems simple enough. Your settings appear to stick. I was swapping a few disks in and out this morning and once I set DTS I verified it on my reciever while switching disks out because I had the same concern as you.

I put some info on my blog http://blogs.msdn.com/andypennell/archive/2007/05/12/xbox-360-hd-dvd-update-now-available.aspx.
My workmate Raj spent an inordinate amount of time on audio/video sync issues, the most famous being the hammer scene in Batman Begins. That, plus every other reported sync issue has been addressed with this update: critical measurements indicate we have a closer AV sync than another other player.
How much of an audio lag remains, in terms of actual measurements? How much was there before?

I note that in most scenes now the sync seems near perfect (whereas before the update, the audio lag was huge and drove me up the wall).

However, I also note that on Fearless, the sync in the drum scene (00:01:31 on the HD DVD side) is ever-so-slightly different when you compare the HD DVD side vs. the DVD side, with the HD DVD's audio being very, very slightly behind.

Could this be a manifestation to the extremely-close-but-not-100%-bang-on status for the HD DVD player after the update, or could it be due to authoring issues of the disc itself?

Nonetheless, I'm quite pleased with this update. Thanks for all the hard work. Now I can go ahead and order that Matrix Trilogy set I've been drooling over. :)

Amir and other HD DVD insiders..

The HD DVD update is working perfect for me.

Thank you.

I think Inlet (www.inlethd.com) and Digital Rapids (www.digital-rapids.com) have both done some work on hardware solutions that capture to WMV9/VC-1, though I'm not sure whether they're capturing uncompressed YUV and transcoding on the fly (with DSPs) or actually capturing directly to VC-1.

I don't think a consumer priced PCI card for capturing to VC-1 exists at this point.


MPEG-2 encoding is not as computationally intensive as VC-1 and H.264 so I imagine we might have to wait a little before those become common. Also, it's demand that drives the market. Those interested in analog to digital video capture might prefer lossless YUV capture. HTPC environments (such as MCE) are moving away from analog TV to digital TV so there'll be less need for analog capture cards as we move forward.

Alex,

Thanks for your reply and your participation here!

Plextor has consumer usb/pci products that analog capture to DivX/MPEG-4 for several years now. In my experience, the playback quality is on par or just slightly below MPEG-2 DVD profile analog capture, but the file size is ~30% smaller.

I was under the impression from Amir that VC-1 encoding is near real-time now, and that happening with a significantly higher source bitrate than NTSC analog capture or ATSC stream capture?

I guess I'm just surprised to not see VC-1/WMV video capture in the consumer HTPC space, with as much as Microsoft has to put into growing the MCE branding.

I have to admit, the updated UI is flawed.
Who decided to hide the audio settings in the software player?

Surely it would make more sense to have them in the settings blade like all the other settings on my xbox - after all, it is the metaphor that microsoft has already established - so no reason to break it. Even system-wide preferences for menu audio are ignored in the hd-dvd software!
This decision has complicated the user experience and I would appreciate it if you could pass this observation along.

If these setting were in the system blade then users would have to stop playing the movie to exit and change them right?

With the audio settings implemented in the player it's easier to change audio settings on the fly which is very helpful.

I heard the difference very clearly just playing the hd-dvd preview trailers at the beginning of the movies. Props to the hd dvd, codec & Xbox teams.

With the new update will the HD-DVD player remember my position in the movie when I shut the system off? I find it extremely annoying that I have to chapter search and fast forward each time I turn the unit off.

Amir, does the XBox 360 HD DVD update also update the drive's firmware?

If these setting were in the system blade then users would have to stop playing the movie to exit and change them right?

With the audio settings implemented in the player it's easier to change audio settings on the fly which is very helpful.


Couldn't it be in both spots? I would find the blade interface settings to be a more intuitive place for me to look.

To any Microsoft HD DVD and Xbox insider:

Is there a link to download the HD DVD update and burn it on a CD for those friends without internet connection?

Thx

Amir,

Glad to finally see the update!! I have to say that the sound is much improved.

As far as my issue playing the 3x DVDs (HD DVD content burned to a standard DVD), I wanted to provide some feedback. These work much better. The menus now come up and I am able to select the chapter or play, etc.

However, if you let the menu continue to play to the end (of a motion menu / motion thumbnail), the menu freezes as it did before and you cannot select or play anything.

As I said, it's much better than before, where menus (I think you called them standard menus vs the HDi of most HD DVDs) would not even appear or if they did appear they would freeze immediately. So thanks for the hard work. Maybe the next update will have them working perfectly!

At least I can now enjoy my home movies / slide shows in HD DVD quality!

In the news thread, kjack posted regarding the new Panny DMP-BD10A BD player.

Any insight as to it's BD Profile adherence level?

Thanks.

Amir and all Microsoft Insiders,

I did some testing on the XBOX 360 update for HD DVD. First off, thanks for fixing the Dolby Digital output...it now works properly. As for DTS, the audio is coming out at 5 dB lower than the Dolby Digital output using the TrueHD audio tests on the DVE HD DVD disc. I have confirmed this by using my SPL meter. Just thought you would like to know.

Best,

To any Microsoft HD DVD and Xbox insider:

Is there a link to download the HD DVD update and burn it on a CD for those friends without internet connection?

Thx


For what's been said , probably there will be that chance next week.

Amir and all Microsoft Insiders,

I did some testing on the XBOX 360 update for HD DVD. First off, thanks for fixing the Dolby Digital output...it now works properly. As for DTS, the audio is coming out at 5 dB lower than the Dolby Digital output using the TrueHD audio tests on the DVE HD DVD disc. I have confirmed this by using my SPL meter. Just thought you would like to know.

Best,


who does the QC for microsoft

Couldn't it be in both spots? I would find the blade interface settings to be a more intuitive place for me to look.No, the update was a player update, not a dash update. It would be like Gears of War putting it's options in the Dash settings dialog.
Remember that it's not the dash playing your disc, it's a completely seperate app that lives on the HD DVD addon itself. It behaves exactly like a game does, with the same advantages and disadvantages.

That's not to say that the XBox team couldn't at some point offer the same options for games, but they may not, since changing the audio encoding step might effect a game in a non-deterministic way.

Amir and all Microsoft Insiders,

I did some testing on the XBOX 360 update for HD DVD. First off, thanks for fixing the Dolby Digital output...it now works properly. As for DTS, the audio is coming out at 5 dB lower than the Dolby Digital output using the TrueHD audio tests on the DVE HD DVD disc. I have confirmed this by using my SPL meter. Just thought you would like to know.

Best,
Your investigation is good as it should show a 4db difference. Here is the issue.

In our three audio encoders, we use a dial-norm of -31 db as required. For all DD decoders, they will boost this level by 4db to -27db total. Unfortunately, with DTS, this is not consistent. Some receivers do this 4db boost, while others do not. We consulted with DTS and they told us to use -31db so that is what we are doing. I believe THX certification requires this 4db boost so receivers with that logo, should have equal level to DD.

This is not limited to us but anyone doing the same encoding. Here is the thread on Toshiba HD DVD player and DTS: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/printthread.php?t=640949&page=42&pp=30

So just turn up the volume a bit and you should be good to go :).

Thanks Amir. Sounds like I may not need to hunt for a Tosh player after all (unless I find a really good deal on an XA1 I can perform frankenstein on with my add-on :D )...

Does any insider (particularly Roger) think there would be any AQ degradation or issues with the transcode to DTS? From the initial impressions I'm reading, it sounds like I'll be staying with the DD since I don't think my Denon will be able to do anything with the WMA Pro.

Guess I'm gonna have to fight with the wifi adapter to get it to see my Airport Base Station again... or ghetto rig the 50 foot ethernet cable from the office.

Your investigation is good as it should show a 4db difference. Here is the issue.

In our three audio encoders, we use a dial-norm of -31 db as required. For all DD decoders, they will boost this level by 4db to -27db total. Unfortunately, with DTS, this is not consistent. Some receivers do this 4db boost, while others do not. We consulted with DTS and they told us to use -31db so that is what we are doing. I believe THX certification requires this 4db boost so receivers with that logo, should have equal level to DD.

This is not limited to us but anyone doing the same encoding. Here is the thread on Toshiba HD DVD player and DTS: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/printthread.php?t=640949&page=42&pp=30

So just turn up the volume a bit and you should be good to go :).


Actually , I don't mind turning up 4 more db, the thing is, that the detail is MUCH more noticeable using DD than DTS, I mean, the surrounds and fronts, dont sound anything as detailed as when using DD.

I did a test, comparing the DD EX track of Lord of the rings to the DTS ES track and couldnt find problems with it, so I'm guesiing is not my reciver nor the DTS configuration of it.

Someone already pointed out this issue. Also the center speaker sound way low, having sometime dificulty listening the voice over the sounds. Indeed, the "power" problems is solved when turning up the volume, but sounds really "ghostly" with the DTS, so is there any explination as to why is this??

Thanks!

Amir/Ben/Andy:

Some Finnish users are now reporting that movie restarts from beginning when they press STOP on the remote. A bug brought on by the update or something else?

Amir,

Thanks for the update! Does this update basically override what you would choose in the movie menu audio settings. If I want to set as an example DTS in the player menu...what in the movie menu audio settings should I choose...whatever the highest codec for that particualr movie is, or is this selection irrevilant now that the player overrides it?

Your investigation is good as it should show a 4db difference. Here is the issue.

In our three audio encoders, we use a dial-norm of -31 db as required. For all DD decoders, they will boost this level by 4db to -27db total. Unfortunately, with DTS, this is not consistent. Some receivers do this 4db boost, while others do not. We consulted with DTS and they told us to use -31db so that is what we are doing. I believe THX certification requires this 4db boost so receivers with that logo, should have equal level to DD.

This is not limited to us but anyone doing the same encoding. Here is the thread on Toshiba HD DVD player and DTS: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/printthread.php?t=640949&page=42&pp=30

So just turn up the volume a bit and you should be good to go :).

Hey Amir,

Thanks for the info!! I'm glad to hear it's not a bug....but I am a bit skeptical. I haven't been able to test the difference between DD and DTS yet, but if HD DVD audio is anything like DVD audio, DTS should still be louder than DD in my case.

For regular DVD, if I flip between DD and DTS, I notice that DTS sounds louder. The same should hold true for HD DVD audio now when I flip between DD and DTS correct?

Dialnorms were applied to SD DVD as well as HD DVD DTS and DD audio streams right?

Thanks Amir...at least I know my sound meter is correct and that the test tones coming out of DVD HD DVD are correct as well!

I just demoed some movies to try out the new HD DVD update and holy *** it sounds good! I tried Poseidon wave scene, Mission Impossible bridge scene, and V for Vendetta end fight scene.......they all sounded fantastic, especially the MI:3 bridge scene........I always thought it could sound better, and now I know what I was missing! Yay! I can't wait for The Matrix Trilogy next Tuesday! :D

Amir,

Thanks for the update! Does this update basically override what you would choose in the movie menu audio settings. If I want to set as an example DTS in the player menu...what in the movie menu audio settings should I choose...whatever the highest codec for that particualr movie is, or is this selection irrevilant now that the player overrides it?

Although the sound gets converted anyways, I always pick the highest audio option. The reason for this is because I have a feeling the actual mix is different as well, maybe with better surround sound usage and such........I could be wrong.

Still not loading:

Relentless Enemies!

Other discs?

Next update, or do I return the disc?

Unacceptable, chaps.

I have a THX receiver and noticed the difference as well. The DTS on King Kong does sound a little muffled compared to the DD. Maybe I have to play with my settings?

Partially because I'm tired of all the xbox posts in here, but also because I think it's a good idea here's a general question to all the hardware manufacturers taking part here:

Would you consider setting up a closed beta test program for knowledgeable AVS members for any future firmware/player updates? Include NDAs and setup a limited access forum where people can talk directly to other testers and the devs. I do know AVS have provided assistance before with this kind of thing by creating forums that ATI could use for closed beta testing several years ago for instance.

By doing this you hit your core audience and have a much better spread of setups and test cases than you would by just doing internal testing. Things like the display synching for instance would be easier to fix. You also get much more focused feedback than trying to dig up information in threads like this and on other internet sites.

Amir,

It has been posted several times that Relentless Enemies is still not playing on the Xbox add on. Any ideas on why this title wasn't fixed?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=847397&page=4

Ok, I just put in Swordfish to test the audio because of the opening explosion. (IMO, it's one of the best scenes to test audio because of it actually using all channels, and a lot of frequencies.) Wow, great job! All I can say is I really hope HD-DVD is here to stay more then ever now. I had it set on DTS for the audio, and the AV sync problem was not there at all. Congratulations on the fantastic improvements. And IMO, well implemented as well with the mini dash. It fits with the rest of the system well.

On a side note, I noticed that if I enabled the DRC and disabled it after it went in effect, it had more solid sounds. I would suggest to anyone having an issue with it, to try that as it helped a lot. Almost like the software was stuck halfway with the setting.

Partially because I'm tired of all the xbox posts in here, but also because I think it's a good idea here's a general question to all the hardware manufacturers taking part here:

Would you consider setting up a closed beta test program for knowledgeable AVS members for any future firmware/player updates? Include NDAs and setup a limited access forum where people can talk directly to other testers and the devs. I do know AVS have provided assistance before with this kind of thing by creating forums that ATI could use for closed beta testing several years ago for instance.

By doing this you hit your core audience and have a much better spread of setups and test cases than you would by just doing internal testing. Things like the display synching for instance would be easier to fix. You also get much more focused feedback than trying to dig up information in threads like this and on other internet sites.

we are looking at this: and several members and Insiders have expressed similar requests: in the meantime, there are threads dedicated to this subject, and we prefer the posts be made elsewhere

please remember this forum is for general Insider questions

Thanks

Amir and other Ms & HD DVD insiders..
Thank you!
It may not be perfect, but now I feel we are now close to getting our hard-earned moneys worth out of the add-on
Maybe now others & I will not cringe thinking about the add-on purchase.

Thx again for all the hard work put into this project.

reminder that this thread is only for Questions to Insiders: see the top thread for details

Thanks

Amir/Ben/Andy:

Some Finnish users are now reporting that movie restarts from beginning when they press STOP on the remote. A bug brought on by the update or something else?No, it's a spec compliancy change. The HD DVD spec requires that pressing "STOP" initiates the "shut down process" of the player. What we were previously doing was effectively a pause, and not a stop. I preferred the old behaviour too. :(

No, it's a spec compliancy change. The HD DVD spec requires that pressing "STOP" initiates the "shut down process" of the player. What we were previously doing was effectively a pause, and not a stop. I preferred the old behaviour too. :(

Do you know if this is only on the HD-DVD addon or for all HD-DVD players?

I remember reading about some HD-DVDs being able to 'resume' or am I remembering incorrectly and that it was for BD?

Hey Amir, I don't know if this question has been addressed yet but I know there was talk of a 360 Elite HDMI fix to stop the pink/green random flashes. Supposedly it was in the Spring Update, but for me, using either a Samsung LN-T4661 or an LN-T4665, the problem still remains after updating.

Any word on that? Thanks very much for any assistance you can offer.

Amir and other Ms & HD DVD insiders..
Thank you
My question is this. You said awhile back that the wma pro was the VC-1 of the audio codecs, why is that? I will say with all three options, I do hear a big difference between wma and dd and dts. I think WMA sounds much more full and dynamic. Why is that?

Just happened to bump into a forum thread at teamxbox.xom >>> http://forum.teamxbox.com/showthread.php?t=523573 ... that Microsoft's Xbox corporate VP of worldwide marketing and publishing Peter Moore told Japanese site ITmedia that the imminent release of the Blu-ray Xbox 360 peripheral could appear for the system before Christmas.
Amir, any hint on how reliable is this news???

Thanks

Amir and other Ms & HD DVD insiders..
Thank you
My question is this. You said awhile back that the wma pro was the VC-1 of the audio codecs, why is that? I will say with all three options, I do hear a big difference between wma and dd and dts. I think WMA sounds much more full and dynamic. Why is that?

so, supposedly xbox does not have WMA encoder and you need a out bound reciever to decode it? Which brands can do that? any new imminent HDMI 1.3?

Just happened to bump into a forum thread at teamxbox.xom >>> http://forum.teamxbox.com/showthread.php?t=523573 ... that Microsoft's Xbox corporate VP of worldwide marketing and publishing Peter Moore told Japanese site ITmedia that the imminent release of the Blu-ray Xbox 360 peripheral could appear for the system before Christmas.
Amir, any hint on how reliable is this news???

Thanks
It is a totally bogus report. The original site claimed the "news" came from Associated Press. So we checked with them and they said that they had never written such an article. And they were not pleased at all that their name was used this way.

So let me be very, very clear on this. There is not a sole at Microsoft that is even thinking of building a BD player for 360, let alone people actively working on it. We are behind HD DVD as optical formats go. And that is the end of the story.

Your investigation is good as it should show a 4db difference. Here is the issue.

In our three audio encoders, we use a dial-norm of -31 db as required. For all DD decoders, they will boost this level by 4db to -27db total. Unfortunately, with DTS, this is not consistent. Some receivers do this 4db boost, while others do not. We consulted with DTS and they told us to use -31db so that is what we are doing. I believe THX certification requires this 4db boost so receivers with that logo, should have equal level to DD.

This is not limited to us but anyone doing the same encoding. Here is the thread on Toshiba HD DVD player and DTS: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/printthread.php?t=640949&page=42&pp=30

So just turn up the volume a bit and you should be good to go :).


Amir I can confirm the +4db works for DTS on Pioneer Elite 8x receivers...

So far everything seems to be working well. Can you describe how WMA Pro handles dial normalization, if at all?

It seems to me that DTS sounds the best thus far, not sure if this has anything to do with the receivers decoders for WMA vs. DTS or some other factor....

The rules of this thread are simple. DO NOT POST UNLESS YOU HAVE A QUESTION.

Post Questions [only questions] directed to and answered only by Industry Insiders who are asked to identify themselves as such in their sig : subject to AVS approval

Industry Insiders only may answer questions or make comments: this is the thread for chat between Insiders as well

any AVS member can post questions [only questions please] for Insiders- but we will not tolerate any bashing

AVS recognizes the special nature of Industry Insiders and values their participation: we ask all AVS members to treat them with respect

Remember: Questions only: no off topic posts: they may be removed: and only Insiders [who have been recognized by AVS moderators] may answer

Insiders: please PM Ken H and myself with your credentials: mods and only mods will make the determination of who qualifys as an insider and all such discussions will be done off line: not to be discussed here

This is a continuation of the original thread Industry Insiders Q&A Thread: only Questions to insiders please which did not end well: any more of this and we will take strong action: Insiders are to be treated with respect:

Please help us make this a flagship thread on AVS by observing these rules

Insiders approved to post in this thread and guidelines for this list:

this list is controlled by the mods: please don't post, either here or in any other forum or thread, about the selection

- list is for this Insider's thread only: it does not apply to any other forum, thread, or post: we don't ask Insider's status outside of this thread and they are not required to ID themselves ouside of this thread
- please don't start any threads on it
-see a mistake or want to request an edit? please PM me: list will be updated frequently
-Are you an Insider who wants to post? please PM me if you are not on the list: we would love to add more


Amirm
Amir Majidimehr
Corporate Vice President, Microsoft Corporation
Consumer Media Technology Group, Mobile and Embedded Devices Division
Microsoft (HD DVD insider)
VC-1 video codec insider in BD/HD DVD

Andy Pennell
Andy Pennell
HDi Developer, Microsoft
HD DVD Insider

benwaggoner
Ben Waggoner
Program Manager for Video Encoding, Professional Content Group, Microsoft
HD DVD and VC-1 Insider with Microsoft

bkilian
Bryan Kilian
Software Development Engineer in Test HDDVD team at Microsoft
Insider with Microsoft

Cjplay
name withheld upon request
Warner Bros HD-DVD Compressionist
Compressionist
[we miss you]

DTV Tivo Dealer
Robert Zohn
President of *********************
Advanced Digital Technology Dealer
TV Broadcast RF Systems Engineer
Retailer - B&M Storefront and Online Website

FilmMixer
Marc Fishman
Re-Recording Mixer, ToddAO Studios
Studio City, CA
Film Sound and Post Production Insider

JeffWilliams
Authoring and Compression
HD-DVD/Blu-ray Insider

jimby_99
name withheld upon request
VP, Advanced Technology for Universal Music Group
Production/Release supervisor of Blu-ray, HD DVD & DVD titles
Music/Video Industry Insider

kjack
Keith Jack
Director Product Marketing
Sigma Designs
BD and HD-DVD decoder supplier
BD/HD-DVD insider

MeridianHQ
name withheld upon request
Meridian Insider
Huntingdon England

PacificDisc
name withheld upon request
Sean - PacificDisc
HD DVD & Blu-ray Replication Insider

paidgeek
name withheld upon request
Sony Pictures BD Insider
Engineer

RBFilms
Richard J. Casey
R&B Films, Ltd.
Producers Guild of America, New Media Council
HD-DVD / BD Industry Insider

RDoherty
Richard E. Doherty
Director, Technology Strategy, Microsoft

Roger Dressler
Director, Business Development
Dolby Laboratories

shore
name withheld upon request
Blu-ray and HD-DVD Insider

Talkstr8t
name withheld upon request
Blu-ray Insider
Speaking solely for myself, not the BDA
Digital Television

walkamo
Christopher Walker
Product Planning and Marketing for Blu-ray and Optical Discs
Pioneer Electronics Sr Manager
Blu-ray Hardware Insider

zambelli
Alex Zambelli
Software Development Engineer in Test
Codec Team, Consumer Media Technology Group, Microsoft
VC-1 and WMV9 codec insider with MicrosofT

Amir I can confirm the +4db works for DTS on Pioneer Elite 8x receivers...

So far everything seems to be working well. Can you describe how WMA Pro handles dial normalization, if at all?

It seems to me that DTS sounds the best thus far, not sure if this has anything to do with the receivers decoders for WMA vs. DTS or some other factor....
It uses similar scheme to DTS which means that you are going to get lower levels out of it in some cases. So in your comparison, you might want to raise the volume since your receiver does the right thing for DTS in boosting its level.

Do you know if this is only on the HD-DVD addon or for all HD-DVD players?

I remember reading about some HD-DVDs being able to 'resume' or am I remembering incorrectly and that it was for BD?It's a spec requirement for HD DVD.
Resumable HD DVDs is a differeent story, and the European Studio Canal ones can currently do it. (You have to hit the "RESUME" key on the remote at the main menu)

Amirm, 1st of thanks for all the hard work, yourself and everyone behind the scenes who work on this update... Now to my question. I have WMA PRO capable receiver. I have tried DD, DTS & WMA Pro with the update. Mind you I have never used WMA on my receiver before & I must say WMA PRO sound real good. To my ears it sounds better than DD & DTS.

Is WMA PRO being coded @ a higher bit rate, hence why I'm hearing such a difference, or are my ears deceiving me... :eek:

amirm, first I would like to thank you and the rest of the HD-DVD/codec teams for working so hard on this update. Congratulations on it's completion! It definitely does sound much better, especially now with DRC off. :)

I'd just like to mention that the DIAL NORM does work correctly for DTS on pioneer elite 74TXVi, so it should work on the other pio elite 7x models (I'd assume elite 8x and 9x models too). However, I did notice that DIAL NORM does not work for WMA Pro. Is this something that the reciever does not support for that codec, or does WMA Pro itself not support the feature? Also, from a pure technology standpoint, do you think DTS or the WMA Pro9 codec is technically better? I'm really curious about WMA Pro since this is the first source that I have ever had that outputs it. I have high hopes for it because I have heard some good things about it, but so far I think DTS sounds better. I should mention though that direct comparison is difficult because of the difference in dB when switching between codecs. Thanks a lot and keep up the great work. I know we all really appreciate all you and your colleagues have done to help us.

Steve

Amirm, 1st of thanks for all the hard work, yourself and everyone behind the scenes who work on this update... Now to my question. I have WMA PRO capable receiver. I have tried DD, DTS & WMA Pro with the update. Mind you I have never used WMA on my receiver before & I must say WMA PRO sound real good. To my ears it sounds better than DD & DTS.

Is WMA PRO being coded @ a higher bit rate, hence why I'm hearing such a difference, or are my ears deceiving me... :eek:
Glad to see the positive feedback on WMA Pro :). And no, you are not imagining things. Our testers arrived at the same conclusion.

WMA Pro was designed to be super efficient codec from start, to enable surround experiences at rates people normally associate with stereo MP3 rates (e.g. 256kbps). As such, it is able to extract maximum quality out of any available bandwidth.

In this context, WMA Pro is running at the same data rate as DTS, i.e., 1.5 mbit/sec. But while DTS is a non-perceptual codec at 1.5mbit/sec (i.e. it does not use the characteristics of human hearing system), WMA Pro does use its perceptual model even at these higher rates. So it is only taking things away that it considers inaudible. This, coupled with its more efficient coding scheme allows better fidelity.

Note that WMA Pro is able to produce even higher quality when used outside of this context. Here, we have to run with very low latency and in real-time with lower MIPS usage. When used in our standard library for offline encoding, it does not have to have such limits. As such, it can produce the same quality you are hearing, at probably half the rate.

I note that some studios use 640 Kbps Dolby Digital Plus for HD DVD, while others use it at 1.5 Mbps.

Is there a reason why we don't see 768 Kbps or 1.0 Mbps, etc? Is there an advantage beyond bits saved to stick with 640 Kbps DD?

----

P.S. Welcome to the Xbox 360 technical support thread. :p LOL. ;)

Amir/MS
I've just been on the phone to CS here in HK with yet another faulty 360 (3rd in 2 months), this time i get the error msg 'E 79'.
Now the CS here is very good, the representatives are friendly and the whole experience is rather good. Now after i told CS the issue with E79, he replied 'Thats unique to us'. I wish he had not as now the curiosity factor has grown and i would like to know what the 'E 79' error is.
Soooo, Amir or other MS insiders, what is the error 'E 79' in the 360?
Thanks
Will
PS, is there a list of receivers that decode WMA Pro?

To MS Insiders:

Has anything been done (in the last two updates to the 360) to make the USB-sniffing less "effective"
to discover the encryption keys when using the add-on as a HD DVD player on the PC?

Diogen.

Still not loading:

Relentless Enemies!

Other discs?

Next update, or do I return the disc?

Unacceptable, chaps.

My copy of 'The Departed' still doesn't load. This is my 3rd disc and none have worked. It's not a disc issue since I've tried it on other drives and it seems to work. I'm guessing I'm one of the unlucky ones who bought a faulty drive.

HEY AMIRM,

Do you know if this issue was addressed or if it is something that cannot be fixed with an update? I'm not the only one who's having this issue:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=813399
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=818379

Does it seem like I need to have my drive replaced?

Thanks

...sorry for continuing the xbox 360 support thread trend

Amir,
I have enjoyed listening to several HD DVDs in WMA Pro today. Sound great through my Pioneer Elite receiver. When will the 360 be able to output WMA Pro (as it lists in the blade menu) so I can lister to wma content from my HTPC and Windows Home Server? I'd also like to listen to downloaded movies decoded in WMA Pro.

So will the 360 now output DD+@1.5Mbps as DD+@1.5Mbps? Or is the DD+@1.5Mbps being converted to DTS @ 1.5Mbps?

DD+ tracks at 640kbps will be played as DD+@ 640kbps?

TrueHD tracks will be played as DD+@1.5Mbps, DTS@1.5Mbps, or DD+ @ 640kbps?

So will the 360 now output DD+@1.5Mbps as DD+@1.5Mbps? Or is the DD+@1.5Mbps being converted to DTS @ 1.5Mbps?
There is no way to output DD+ over S/PDIF & Toslink. It could have been done, but it was not (by folks who designed DD+). So that option is out.

So yes, DD+ gets converted to one of the three choices: DD, DTS or WMA Pro.

DD+ tracks at 640kbps will be played as DD+@ 640kbps?
No, they get converted to regular DD as otherwise, your receiver would not know what to do with it.

TrueHD tracks will be played as DD+@1.5Mbps, DTS@1.5Mbps, or DD+ @ 640kbps?
No, the three choices are DD at 640, DTS and WMA Pro at 1.5 mbit/sec.

Amir,
I have enjoyed listening to several HD DVDs in WMA Pro today. Sound great through my Pioneer Elite receiver. When will the 360 be able to output WMA Pro (as it lists in the blade menu) so I can lister to wma content from my HTPC and Windows Home Server? I'd also like to listen to downloaded movies decoded in WMA Pro.
Thanks for the kind words on WMA Pro.

As to blade, that takes more work as it might impact gaming perf if not done right.

For HTPC use, I am not quite sure. I need to find out...

So why are some people saying DD @ 640kbps sounds better then DTS@1.5Mbps?

To MS Insiders:

Has anything been done (in the last two updates to the 360) to make the USB-sniffing less "effective"
to discover the encryption keys when using the add-on as a HD DVD player on the PC?

Diogen.
Yes. We put in special firmware so that the only way you can read the drive over USB, is to have the bits flow down with gravity. In other words, you now have to put the drive above the main unit. So to the extent that the hackers forget, and put the drive lower than the PC, they won't be able to get to the keys....







:D

Seriously, we probably won't comment on questions like this.

So why are some people saying DD @ 640kbps sounds better then DTS@1.5Mbps?
Well, it is a subjective thing. Also, per earlier posts, the DTS may be 4db lower than volume which would make a lot of people think it sounds worse (without volume compensation).

Well, it is a subjective thing. Also, per earlier posts, the DTS may be 4db lower than volume which would make a lot of people think it sounds worse (without volume compensation).

I see, thanks!

Plextor has consumer usb/pci products that analog capture to DivX/MPEG-4 for several years now. In my experience, the playback quality is on par or just slightly below MPEG-2 DVD profile analog capture, but the file size is ~30% smaller.
Interesting, I wasn't aware of Plextor's products. The compression ratio could probably be even more efficient with MPEG-4. A well optimized encoder could easily achieve 50% savings over MPEG-2, IMO. Which leads me to my next point...

I was under the impression from Amir that VC-1 encoding is near real-time now, and that happening with a significantly higher source bitrate than NTSC analog capture or ATSC stream capture?
I didn't say VC-1 realtime encoding wasn't possible. I only said it was more complex than MPEG-2 encoding. Also, "realtime" is a relative term. It's affected by the CPU speed, number of cores available, encoder complexity (quality/perf tradeoff), resolution, framerate, bitrate, etc. So it's not a question of whether you can do VC-1 encoding in realtime. The question is: how well can you do it?

Anyway... Keep in mind that MPEG-2 hardware encoders have been around for a long time now - but so has MPEG-2. Hauppauge PVR-350 wasn't available immediately after MPEG-2's creation in 1994. :) We're talking about consumer priced solutions here: PCI cards for probably less than $200. In order to get something like that priced that low you need mass production and high demand - and that just doesn't happen overnight.

I guess I'm just surprised to not see VC-1/WMV video capture in the consumer HTPC space, with as much as Microsoft has to put into growing the MCE branding.
I'm not aware of the MCE team building any features or scenarios around hardware VC-1 encoding so there's probably little business incentive for Microsoft to push consumer-level hardware VC-1 capture at this moment - other than for the generic "more VC-1 content = more VC-1 users" reason. You'd need a powerful scenario first, such as, "Using VC-1 capture cards to convert homemade HDV videos to VC-1 on the fly and then burn them to HD-DVDs". I'd imagine we'd want to ensure plans for such a scenario exist first - before we start encouraging IHVs to make the necessary hardware.

Hi Amirm,
i'm still curious as to what/why there is a preference in the Blade for WMA output. Nothing, except HD-DVD, is sending WMA out of the 360; even MCE converts my WMAPro music and 5.1 sound clips to DD5.1 .

very curious *one eyebrow raised, scratching chin.

Matt.

Hi
First of all thanks for the HD DVD update. Like having dirty windows washed.. :) ..

I do though experience the same thing as others have states - that is DD sounding much clearer and better detailed - and I am not just talking volume here - simply clarity in example strings played from a guitar - simply sounds more crisp on DD than on DTS - even for my Eagles HD DVD deliveried in DTS as original track.

Has anyone so far being able to compare DD and DTS from 360 to DD+ (and plus) from a dedicated player - and how big is the difference?

WHen I use the DD on the 360 now - the only update I have got is the "out of night mode"? is that correct?

Thanks in the advance for your input - this tread is GREATLY appreciated.
Regards Martin Lynge

To the MS WMV/VC1 insiders,

It seems to me that there are different versions of WMV9 video codecs around without some clear information on which is which. What I would really like to know is what software needs to be installed (and what settings used) on a standard Win XP PC to use WMEncoder with the latest WMV9 or VC1 video codec to produce the best quality WMV files for playback in WMPlayer?

Thanks for all the great info posted here!

Amirm,

Have found that my Samsung M86 will accept 1080p via VGA if passed through a D-Link DKVM-4K http://www.dlink.com/products/?pid=307
Can this information be passed to the Xbox team to assist in diagnosing the difficulties with VGA connection?
Thanks for the 'expanded' levels, huge improvement.

This is to any insider who might be able to help

I was wondering what the cost differential betwenn producing a movie on BD is verses HD DVD. Obviously Warners would have the answer pressing the same films for both formats. I am not after a specific dollar figure as it would obviously vary with the amount of work that ggoes into the release and is also obviously commercially sensative, I'm really just after an approximate ratio between the two.

The reason I ask is I think this is a very important factor in determining trends and making decisions on supporting formats.

Alot has been made out of the fact that so far this year BD is outselling HD DVD 2:1. Conclusions are being drawn on this such as: Universal is losing by supporting HD DVD, or, that more studios will remain or signup to BD because of this, but this reasoning ignores the fiscal side of things. I mean as a simple example if a BD version's costs are twice that of a HD DVD version of the same title, then even selling at 2:1 both formats are equally profitable.

Obviously if one format has cheaper costs, they need to sell less product to maintain healthy revenues and this would effect decision making.

I'm hoping someone here can help me with this as it will help me (and I'm sure many others) to make more than suface judgements based on sales figures and the likes.

Thankyou

To the MS WMV/VC1 insiders,

It seems to me that there are different versions of WMV9 video codecs around without some clear information on which is which. What I would really like to know is what software needs to be installed (and what settings used) on a standard Win XP PC to use WMEncoder with the latest WMV9 or VC1 video codec to produce the best quality WMV files for playback in WMPlayer?

Thanks for all the great info posted here!
To get the current codec, you need one of the following installed:

Windows Media Player 11
Windows Media Format SDK 11
Windows Vista

Any of the above will update you to the current latest .dll

Also, WMV9 is a VC-1 codec - you can think of WMV9 as our brand for our implementation of VC-1.

As for settings, that's a broad topic (and what I spend a lot of my days on)!

Is MS working on an improved VC-1 decoder? Two areas I'd like to see improved:

(1) Performance

CoreAVC seems to consume less CPU than Microsoft's VC-1 decoder (with comparable bitrates), which seems kind of backwards to me, since h264 is supposed to be more CPU demanding. That indicates potential for improvement in the VC-1 decoder.

(2) Full loop / deblocking filter

IIRC, Amir said that the current MS VC-1 decoder doesn't do the loop / deblocking filter stuff, which a full VC-1 decoder should do.

Thanks!!

Amir-
Are there still firmware updates scheduled for the G2 Toshibas anytime soon....?

Thanks in advance
DTS

Is MS working on an improved VC-1 decoder? Two areas I'd like to see improved:

(1) Performance

CoreAVC seems to consume less CPU than Microsoft's VC-1 decoder (with comparable bitrates), which seems kind of backwards to me, since h264 is supposed to be more CPU demanding. That indicates potential for improvement in the VC-1 decoder.
We're always working on improved performance. The Spring Xbox 360 update had dramatically faster VC-1 decoding for example. We're doing a bunch of optimization work for Silverlight now as well.

Vista also has some VC-1 decode performance improvements over XP I believe. Also, we support DXVA for GPU hardware acceleration of VC-1 decode - if you're having performance issues and have a relatively modern GPU, you should see if DXVA is on and see if that helps.

(2) Full loop / deblocking filter

IIRC, Amir said that the current MS VC-1 decoder doesn't do the loop / deblocking filter stuff, which a full VC-1 decoder should do.
The current Windows VC-1 implementation is spec compliant, and so has full support for the loop filter.

:D

Seriously, we probably won't comment on questions like this.
I should have phrased it differently: is it the firmware in the transport, the player (PowerDVD, WinDVD)
or both that have to be "fixed" to prevent key sniffing.
But I guess you answered that.

Thanks.
Diogen.

We're always working on improved performance. The Spring Xbox 360 update had dramatically faster VC-1 decoding for example. We're doing a bunch of optimization work for Silverlight now as well.

Vista also has some VC-1 decode performance improvements over XP I believe. Also, we support DXVA for GPU hardware acceleration of VC-1 decode - if you're having performance issues and have a relatively modern GPU, you should see if DXVA is on and see if that helps.
Thanks for your reply! I guess the latest decoder for XP is part of WMP11, right? Do you expect there will be a newer decoder version available for XP sooner or later?

The current Windows VC-1 implementation is spec compliant, and so has full support for the loop filter.
I may have remembered incorrectly. What I was referring to is this comment posted by Amir:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9922852&&#post9922852

"In addition, our VC-1 decoder that he says he used, lacks post processing as that was too CPU intensive for the time period we release that code. So you are bound to see more artifacts in some cases as compared to real HD DVD hardware (sadly, I understand some software HD DVD players lack the same post processing)."

What post processing did Amir mean if not the loop filter? And will the next version of the XP/Vista decoder include that post processing?

Thanks!

I may have remembered incorrectly. What I was referring to is this comment posted by Amir:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9922852&&#post9922852

"In addition, our VC-1 decoder that he says he used, lacks post processing as that was too CPU intensive for the time period we release that code. So you are bound to see more artifacts in some cases as compared to real HD DVD hardware (sadly, I understand some software HD DVD players lack the same post processing)."

What post processing did Amir mean if not the loop filter? And will the next version of the XP/Vista decoder include that post processing?

Thanks!
My comment was not regarding Windows Media Player. It was regarding our previous generation player, the "Media Player Classic" which I thought the poster was using (which he was not). That player came out in 1999 and hence, was designed for a different time. The decoders on WMP have the proper filters and such.

Your investigation is good as it should show a 4db difference. Here is the issue.

In our three audio encoders, we use a dial-norm of -31 db as required. For all DD decoders, they will boost this level by 4db to -27db total. Unfortunately, with DTS, this is not consistent. Some receivers do this 4db boost, while others do not. We consulted with DTS and they told us to use -31db so that is what we are doing. I believe THX certification requires this 4db boost so receivers with that logo, should have equal level to DD.

This is not limited to us but anyone doing the same encoding. Here is the thread on Toshiba HD DVD player and DTS: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/printthread.php?t=640949&page=42&pp=30

So just turn up the volume a bit and you should be good to go :).

You guys have done a phenomenal job giving us what we want as well as patiently answering questions, so I don't mean to be pedantic. My question is: are you 100% positive the dial-norm code is working as it should? I have an Onkyo THX-certified receiver, and I can confirm that the DD does receive the 4db boost, but the DTS does not. So, either not all THX-certified receivers handle DTS dial-norm properly, or there's something else going on. Turning up the volume by 4db certainly does help but I just want to make sure nothing else "strange" is going on. Can you ease my paranoia? If it's just my receiver (albeit a THX one), that's less of an issue, since I can compensate for it. Many thanks...

You guys have done a phenomenal job giving us what we want as well as patiently answering questions, so I don't mean to be pedantic. My question is: are you 100% positive the dial-norm code is working as it should? I have an Onkyo THX-certified receiver, and I can confirm that the DD does receive the 4db boost, but the DTS does not. So, either not all THX-certified receivers handle DTS dial-norm properly, or there's something else going on. Turning up the volume by 4db certainly does help but I just want to make sure nothing else "strange" is going on. Can you ease my paranoia? If it's just my receiver (albeit a THX one), that's less of an issue, since I can compensate for it. Many thanks...
One can never be sure of anything in this space, and hence the need for this thread :). We are not gods of how other people's technology works in practice. All we know is that with identical source, some players have high volume, some do not (hence the issue is not with our player). And that DTS told us to encode at the level which we did. Our bit wrt to THX was a guess as again, this is not our technology implementation.

Someone sent me a nice post after researching this mess (yes, it is a mess :)) before. I like to see him post it here. If I am not mistaken from the read of his message, THX certification does not mean that the level boost is applied. Rather, it is up to the receiver to obey DN for DTS or not. If this is correct, it would explain why you hear lower volume.

Answering a related question, WMA Pro has no dialog norm. But we do set its level at -31 also. So depending on the receiver, it may also sound softer.

Amir-
Are there still firmware updates scheduled for the G2 Toshibas anytime soon....?

Thanks in advance
DTS
I can't disclose specific schedules for them. But I suspect there will be more updates as we are working with them on continuous improvements.

Amirm,

Have found that my Samsung M86 will accept 1080p via VGA if passed through a D-Link DKVM-4K http://www.dlink.com/products/?pid=307
Can this information be passed to the Xbox team to assist in diagnosing the difficulties with VGA connection?
Thanks for the 'expanded' levels, huge improvement.
Will do and thanks for taking the time to share the "fix".

Glad to see the positive feedback on WMA Pro :). And no, you are not imagining things. Our testers arrived at the same conclusion.

WMA Pro was designed to be super efficient codec from start, to enable surround experiences at rates people normally associate with stereo MP3 rates (e.g. 256kbps). As such, it is able to extract maximum quality out of any available bandwidth.

In this context, WMA Pro is running at the same data rate as DTS, i.e., 1.5 mbit/sec. But while DTS is a non-perceptual codec at 1.5mbit/sec (i.e. it does not use the characteristics of human hearing system), WMA Pro does use its perceptual model even at these higher rates. So it is only taking things away that it considers inaudible. This, coupled with its more efficient coding scheme allows better fidelity.

Note that WMA Pro is able to produce even higher quality when used outside of this context. Here, we have to run with very low latency and in real-time with lower MIPS usage. When used in our standard library for offline encoding, it does not have to have such limits. As such, it can produce the same quality you are hearing, at probably half the rate.

Thanks for your response amirm. Like I said for a 1st time user of WMA PRO Audio Code, I am very impressed with the way the movies I tested yesterday sounded, especially the "Highway Scene" in MI:3... :eek:

The decoders on WMP have the proper filters and such.
Thanks for the clarification. I'm happy then... :)

This is to any insider who might be able to help

I was wondering what the cost differential betwenn producing a movie on BD is verses HD DVD. Obviously Warners would have the answer pressing the same films for both formats. I am not after a specific dollar figure as it would obviously vary with the amount of work that ggoes into the release and is also obviously commercially sensative, I'm really just after an approximate ratio between the two.
There are two costs: non-recurring costs and recurring costs. The former is labor, encoding, authoring, testing, etc. The latter is replication cost. With a combined volume of the two formats at 0.4% of DVD, you can easily imagine that the former factor dominates the cost. Reinforcing this point, is Don’s comment at the Home Theater Cruise which I totally agree with, is that few if any titles in HD DVD/BD have made any profits for any studio.

The reason I ask is I think this is a very important factor in determining trends and making decisions on supporting formats.
It is when the market takes off. And there, you start to look at the recurring costs and HD DVD has a major advantage there for many reasons from design to huge amount of competition among many companies who can replicated them with their DVD+HD DVD lines.

Alot has been made out of the fact that so far this year BD is outselling HD DVD 2:1. Conclusions are being drawn on this such as: Universal is losing by supporting HD DVD, or, that more studios will remain or signup to BD because of this, but this reasoning ignores the fiscal side of things. I mean as a simple example if a BD version's costs are twice that of a HD DVD version of the same title, then even selling at 2:1 both formats are equally profitable.
Per above, we won’t even have to get into this logic. The upfront costs dominate right now. But as volumes pick up, then HD DVD advantages do kick in. Of course, BD folks hope that they can get their cost structure down over time too. We will have to see :).

Obviously if one format has cheaper costs, they need to sell less product to maintain healthy revenues and this would effect decision making.
Agreed although one has to keep in mind that not all decisions get made logically. Disney and Fox supported the original Divx format instead of DVD if I am not mistaken. Surely that was not because Divx was cheaper to make. Deciding to support one format or the other (or both) is a complex arithmetic with many factors which do not lend themselves easily to internet discussions :).

I'm hoping someone here can help me with this as it will help me (and I'm sure many others) to make more than suface judgements based on sales figures and the likes.

Thankyou
If you search pack a few pages, there were some disc replication costs posted (for HD DVD-15/30 and BD-25 – no BD-50 costs were disclosed). While that is not what the majors are paying, it makes for good fuel for arguments on the forum :D.

Thanks for your response amirm. Like I said for a 1st time user of WMA PRO Audio Code, I am very impressed with the way the movies I tested yesterday sounded, especially the "Highway Scene" in MI:3... :eek:
Now you are making me want to go and throw out my Anthem D2 and replace it with a Pioneer to hear the darn thing this way :D.

But maybe in the second room....

BTW, you may want to send some kind notes toward your receiver manufacturers who put in WMA Pro. They did this a long time ago, hoping for such scenarios. I am sure they will be pleased to hear that their hard work on this front has payed off.

Now you are making me want to go and throw out my Anthem D2 and replace it with a Pioneer to hear the darn thing this way :D.

But maybe in the second room....

BTW, you may want to send some kind notes toward your receiver manufacturers who put in WMA Pro. They did this a long time ago, hoping for such scenarios. I am sure they will be pleased to hear that their hard work on this front has payed off.


Amir, do you know of any other AVR manufacturer's that offer WMA Pro decoding besides Pioneer? Nothing against Pio, I'm just curiuos.

Thanks

No, the three choices are DD at 640, DTS and WMA Pro at 1.5 mbit/sec.
Amir can you please better explain what is going on with TrueHD tracks.

It is my understanding (http://www.dolby.com/assets/pdf/tech_library/DPlus_TrueHD_whitepaper.pdf) that there is data in the Dolby Digital Plus and Dolby TrueHD streams that allows for the Dolby Digital legacy track to be extracted, but that there is no Dolby Digital Plus track maintained inside the Dolby TrueHD track.

I can see then how the DTS 1.5 Mbps matches up well when outputting the DD+ in the guise of DTS, but why would you want to ouput a TrueHD track at 1.5 Mbps if it's been decoded into the legacy format. Is there so much decoding and encoding going on inside the player that it actually decodes the TrueHD track and reassembles it as 1.5 Mbps DTS?

What's going on with the TrueHD?

Interesting, I wasn't aware of Plextor's products. The compression ratio could probably be even more efficient with MPEG-4. A well optimized encoder could easily achieve 50% savings over MPEG-2, IMO. Which leads me to my next point...

I haven't used the PCI card, but I did have the USB device.. it was a little buggy in the media center software that I was using, but performed mostly well for over 2 years. The DivX capture profiles looked better than the "MPEG-4" capture profiles.

I didn't say VC-1 realtime encoding wasn't possible. I only said it was more complex than MPEG-2 encoding. Also, "realtime" is a relative term. It's affected by the CPU speed, number of cores available, encoder complexity (quality/perf tradeoff), resolution, framerate, bitrate, etc. So it's not a question of whether you can do VC-1 encoding in realtime. The question is: how well can you do it?

Anyway... Keep in mind that MPEG-2 hardware encoders have been around for a long time now - but so has MPEG-2. Hauppauge PVR-350 wasn't available immediately after MPEG-2's creation in 1994. :) We're talking about consumer priced solutions here: PCI cards for probably less than $200. In order to get something like that priced that low you need mass production and high demand - and that just doesn't happen overnight.

Point taken and understood. I've had 2 Hauppauge cards, both excellent hardware. But I've also had 3 Microsoft keyboards, and they were excellent hardware as well, so I know you guys have it in you! ;)

I'm not aware of the MCE team building any features or scenarios around hardware VC-1 encoding so there's probably little business incentive for Microsoft to push consumer-level hardware VC-1 capture at this moment - other than for the generic "more VC-1 content = more VC-1 users" reason. You'd need a powerful scenario first, such as, "Using VC-1 capture cards to convert homemade HDV videos to VC-1 on the fly and then burn them to HD-DVDs". I'd imagine we'd want to ensure plans for such a scenario exist first - before we start encouraging IHVs to make the necessary hardware.

Here's a scenario for you: OTA digital is about to get very very big, in the USA. So capture OTA HD 1080i + 5.1, but instead of writing it to a massive MPEG-2 TS file like the Hauppauge 1600 does, you encode it on-the-fly to WMV (VC-1 / WMA).

Thanks for all your info Alex, and pass along my interest if you would for a Microsoft WMV hardware PCI encoder card. :D

Hi Amir, I know you don't venture too far away from the Insider's thread, but can you comment on why Microsoft remains in the HD DVD camp and hasn't gone neutral?

My main comments are in the first two posts of this thread "Why hasn't Microsoft gone neutral?" (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=848299)

Basically, here were the PR/comments back in Sept 2005 when MS evaluated the situation and decided to join the HD DVD group. While valid in 2005, it seems many points no longer apply in Q2 2007.

From Richard Doherty (MS program manager for media convergence – Sept 2005):
1. "HD DVD requires that movies may be copied to a consumer’s hard drive" (Managed Copy).
2. "HD DVD supports regular DVD recordings on flip side." (posted by Amir: “The timing here is key: hybrid discs are useful in early life of HD when consumers are transitioning. Having hybrid 3 to 4 years form now is of much less value.” and “We worry about shelf space for any HD format without hybrid.”)
3. "HD DVD offers more capacity... The 50GB Blu-ray disc is nowhere in sight. For now, HD DVD is the capacity leader."
From Amir Majidimehr (MS VP of Consumer Media Technology Group – Sept 2005 & July 2006)
4. "Blu Ray’s viability of being able to manufacture that disc…with high reliability"
5. "The fact that Blu-ray discs have data so close to the surface might also be a concern to consumers… scratching can become a big problem”
6. "Blu-Ray’s additional copy protection - 'it's the belts and suspenders kind of thing [laughs]—called BD+' ”
7. "Replication costs"
8. "Slim Drives – BR optical pick up is very large due need for multiple lenses. Concern: portable player and laptops may be difficult or impossible to build.”
Other Factors not mentioned specifically in PR in 2005.
9. Blu Ray’s decision to use BD-J.
10. "HD-DVD is more pc friendly." (nataraj, who doesn’t speak for MS – Sept 2005)
11. Standalone Player Costs.

Do you mind if I can post your reply from the Insider's Thread to the main one?

To any insider:

Any sign yet that a final AACS agreement is on the horizon? Or is another extension about to be announced?

- Tom

Amir,

Any news or other interesting info out of the Home Theater Cruise that you can share with the rest of us?

Amir, Andy, Ben...

I love both the new Spring Dashboard Update and the HDDVD update, but I noticed 2 of my most wanted features haven't been implemented, or I am an idiot and missed them.

1. Can we get an option to have games and the Dashboard to render at 720p, but HDDVDs play at 1080i? Movies look better at 1080i on my TV, but games look best at their native 720p.

2. Can we get an option as to which drive tray opens when we press the Open/Close button on the media remote. Perhaps some type of timing system could be implemented where one quick press opens the console tray and 2 quick presses or a longer press opens the HDDVD tray. I would suspect most people who have the HDDVD drive play all media through the addon now so haveing the media remote open the console tray is a bit useless.

Again if these changes made it into the 2 latest updates, forgive me because I have been unable to find them.

Thanks!

Amir can you please better explain what is going on with TrueHD tracks.

It is my understanding (http://www.dolby.com/assets/pdf/tech_library/DPlus_TrueHD_whitepaper.pdf) that there is data in the Dolby Digital Plus and Dolby TrueHD streams that allows for the Dolby Digital legacy track to be extracted, but that there is no Dolby Digital Plus track maintained inside the Dolby TrueHD track.

I can see then how the DTS 1.5 Mbps matches up well when outputting the DD+ in the guise of DTS, but why would you want to ouput a TrueHD track at 1.5 Mbps if it's been decoded into the legacy format. Is there so much decoding and encoding going on inside the player that it actually decodes the TrueHD track and reassembles it as 1.5 Mbps DTS?

What's going on with the TrueHD?
Yes, we decode TrueHD and re-encode into target format (DD, DTS and WMA Pro). We can't send TrueHD to your receiver because it would not know how to decode it (and its data rate can exceed S/PDIF and Toslink connections). So one has no choice but to decode it first and then re-encode.

Thanks for your reply! I guess the latest decoder for XP is part of WMP11, right? Do you expect there will be a newer decoder version available for XP sooner or later?
Correct, WMP 11 has improved performance over WMP 10 on XP.

I imagine there will be future updates, but there's no public schedule.

First off, I'm loving the update. Excellent sound now matches the excellent picture, in timing and quality....

Anywho, I spent a little time with King Kong earlier today, switching between DD, DTS, and WMA encoders (I confirmed that my processor is correctly handling the dialog normalization for both DD and DTS). After matching overall volumes, I am preferring DTS for the time being. I was a little disappointed with WMA actually. I'm perceiving significant roll-off in the upper frequencies compared to DTS and DD. (In many rooms, this would surely be a benefit) Perhaps it's due to WMA more aggressively throwing away what it considers in-audible? I quickly tried using my RTA to confirm this but I haven't been able do it just yet. I wish I had an HD DVE disk to use its full-bandwidth pink noise to get a good test sample. For the time being, it just sounds dull to me.

Dan

Yes, we decode TrueHD and re-encode into target format (DD, DTS and WMA Pro). We can't send TrueHD to your receiver because it would not know how to decode it (and its data rate can exceed S/PDIF and Toslink connections). So one has no choice but to decode it first and then re-encode.

Isn't it a myth that the SPDIF connection doesn't have the bandwith to pass SACD/DVD-A/advanced codecs? I thought the real issue was content protection and that's why it's only HDMI or the rarer iLink.

Yes, we decode TrueHD and re-encode into target format (DD, DTS and WMA Pro). We can't send TrueHD to your receiver because it would not know how to decode it (and its data rate can exceed S/PDIF and Toslink connections). So one has no choice but to decode it first and then re-encode.
I'm sorry but this hasn't actually answered my question.
I was looking for technical details as to what happens to the TrueHD track.
How can MS have added complete DTS encoder capabilities via firmware upgrade?
How can this on the fly decode TrueHD to PCM and then encode it to full bit rate DTS for the receiver to decode?

What is the TrueHD decoded to?

Is Dolby Digital Plus re-encoded into DTS, a different encoding scheme, or is the untouched DD+ track sent out with a DTS header so that it can go through Toslink?

Yes, we decode TrueHD and re-encode into target format (DD, DTS and WMA Pro). We can't send TrueHD to your receiver because it would not know how to decode it (and its data rate can exceed S/PDIF and Toslink connections). So one has no choice but to decode it first and then re-encode.

Does this mean the HDMI 360 version could (or eventually) allow TrueHD to pass through HDMI to a receiver that could decode it?

Isn't it a myth that the SPDIF connection doesn't have the bandwith to pass SACD/DVD-A/advanced codecs? I thought the real issue was content protection and that's why it's only HDMI or the rarer iLink.
Sure, a coax connection can way beyon the data rate approved today for S/PDIF. But the keyword is "approved." There is a spec for S/PDIF. If you exceed it, you have no assurance that it will work on all devices.

But let me be clear. From our point of view, folks could have allowed DD+/TrueHD, etc. to go out on S/PDIF and Toslink and we would have been fine with it. I am just saying that it is not allowed. And this is regardless of bandwidth requirements. People wanted you to buy an HDMI receiver and here we are :).

I'm sorry but this hasn't actually answered my question.
I was looking for technical details as to what happens to the TrueHD track.
How can MS have added complete DTS encoder capabilities via firmware upgrade?
Not sure why you think we can't do this with software. Encoder is just an algorithm. If you have fast enough CPU, you can do it without using silicon. And indeed, that is what we have in 360.

How can this on the fly decode TrueHD to PCM and then encode it to full bit rate DTS for the receiver to decode?
Again, the machine is fast enough to do the decoding of THD and encoding of DTS. And play video. And interactivity.... :)

What is the TrueHD decoded to?
PCM. And that is the input to DTS/WMA Pro/DD.

Is Dolby Digital Plus re-encoded into DTS, a different encoding scheme, or is the untouched DD+ track sent out with a DTS header so that it can go through Toslink?
In all cases we decode the source codec into PCM, and then encode into target format. You cannot send DD+ as DTS as they are completely different animals. Putting a DTS header on DD+ would simply cause the decoder to crash, hang, etc. as it would not know what to do with DD+.

Amir,

Any news or other interesting info out of the Home Theater Cruise that you can share with the rest of us?
There were no newsworthy items to report per-se. Most good discussions around favorite topics such as HD DVD/BD, HDMI, etc. We did show some cool content though which made folks pretty happy :). Rest of you have to wait some more to see the same thing. So in that respect, the people there got some insight into new things.

Any MS insider...

Do you think having so many HD DVD players hooked up via analog connections (VGA and component) via the Xbox 360 will help offset/delay the implementation of Image Constraint Token (ICT)?

Thanks amir and guys @MS mua!! thanks for update.

Now if I may ask? When will be black hd add on for elite will be available and for $.

and when will premium=Elite will be available?

Not sure why you think we can't do this with software. Encoder is just an algorithm. If you have fast enough CPU, you can do it without using silicon. And indeed, that is what we have in 360.
Again, the machine is fast enough to do the decoding of THD and encoding of DTS. And play video. And interactivity.... :)
PCM. And that is the input to DTS/WMA Pro/DD.
In all cases we decode the source codec into PCM, and then encode into target format. You cannot send DD+ as DTS as they are completely different animals. Putting a DTS header on DD+ would simply cause the decoder to crash, hang, etc. as it would not know what to do with DD+.
Thank you for those answers Amir, that much better explains it.

Thanks amir and guys @MS mua!! thanks for update.
My pleasure

Now if I may ask? When will be black hd add on for elite will be available and for $.
Well, if you were at the Elf charity auction on the home theater cruise, and were the highest bidder, you could be owning one now :). For the rest of you, you have to get a job here to get one :p. Other than that, I have nothing to say :D.

My pleasure


Well, if you were at the Elf charity auction on the home theater cruise, and were the highest bidder, you could be owning one now :). For the rest of you, you have to get a job here to get one :p. Other than that, I have nothing to say :D.

So, I assume, we have to put up with this mis matched couple for the time being lol.

To all MS insiders:

I am pasting this question from MrBeave70 located here (page 6 - I am badboodah77 and responded to him saying I would post it here).

I am still dying to know why the HDMI output gives me such an awful picture on my Vizio 32" TV. I've been communicating with Vizio, and they say the TV has nothing to do with it and it just accepts whatever signal it is given. I told them I disagree, because when my TV switches from the Dashboard to the start of a DVD, there is always about a second or two where the TV loses the Xbox signal and there's nothing on the screen. The TV HAS to play a role in this.

It's just so aggravating. I have both the Pro and Elite Xbox's right now. I want to keep the Elite and use the HDMI output, but it just won't work properly. (FYI, the issue I have is with upconverting standard def DVDs to 720p. The VGA output does it superbly, and the HDMI should do the same thing.... But it doesn't. The picture I get is horrible.)

I just want an answer. Please, HD Gods, tell me why my DVDs aren't getting upconverted through the HDMI output. I have a small Gateway, 19" LCD monitor, that displays an upconverted picture properly through both HDMI and VGA. So why on earth won't my 32" Vizio do the same?

Anybody have any other ideas what might be going on? Could the quality of the cable have any effect?

Thanks in advance!
(I'm off to play my first Halo 3 Beta match! Woohoo!)

Any MS insider...

Do you think having so many HD DVD players hooked up via analog connections (VGA and component) via the Xbox 360 will help offset/delay the implementation of Image Constraint Token (ICT)?
Well, what do you think? :)

Well, what do you think? :)

My guess is yes, ICT will be significantly delayed :)

Any Insider,

How are people reacting in regards to the fact that newly released HD DVDs and Blu-Ray movies that have had "old" keys revoked and thus can't be played on "old" versions of PowerDVD/WinDVD have already been "hacked" and copied? What does this say for the whole AACS protection scheme when movies that aren't technically even released have already had its protection circumvented and copied? Is there any movement on the part of your respective companies to movie away from DRM in general?

Amir,
WRT the 360 outputting DD+, you've said a couple of things: 1) your receiver wouldn't understand it, 2) DD+ can't be output via Toslink. Well, new receivers are coming out this summer that will support all the high-def codecs (TrueHD, DTS MA, etc.). These codecs must be transported over HDMI. You also mentioned that the internal data pathways in the Elite don't have enough bandwidth to pass more than 2 channel PCM, or 1.5 Mbps DTS/WMA Pro. So, given a DD+ plus stream, could you not output it over the HDMI in the Elite? Receivers will soon be able to decode it, it will be passed over HDMI, and it fits within bandwidth limits used by other codecs already. The only possible issue I see with it is because of HDi and audio mixing, the stream has to be decoded already, and there just wouldn't be enough CPU power left to reencode as DD+ (although I would guess the WMA Pro encode would be more CPU intensive, especially given comments from Roger that DD+ is more of a structural change from DD than very much of an actual encoding change).