It then becomes a legal requirement for us to ensure that the content is only available for to people in the countries in which it is licensed. If we don’t do this it makes it really difficult for us to get new content providers to put content on Xbox Live, which in turn means Xbox Live members don’t get the content they want.
http://www.maxconsole.net/?mode=news&newsid=16560

Oh.. if only Michael Newey could see the irony of his own comment.

I am a (valued?) xbox live member who has had access to buying content through xbox live for awhile now until the most recent "update" to my xbox360.
Now I am blocked from accessing any multimedia content through xbox live - both free and paid content - yep, an xbox live member who can't get the content they want.

I discovered this when trying to download the HD clips of the Matrix now offered through xbox live before the release date on hd-dvd. Now this is where the logic all falls apart when microsoft starts chucking around "license holder" speak.

Warner allows me buy and play region-free Matrix HD discs in region-free hd-dvd players and somehow i can't access free promotional clips through my xbox??

So is it really warner or microsoft who is blocking access to this content?

Glad to see the positive feedback on WMA Pro :). And no, you are not imagining things. Our testers arrived at the same conclusion.

WMA Pro was designed to be super efficient codec from start, to enable surround experiences at rates people normally associate with stereo MP3 rates (e.g. 256kbps). As such, it is able to extract maximum quality out of any available bandwidth.

In this context, WMA Pro is running at the same data rate as DTS, i.e., 1.5 mbit/sec. But while DTS is a non-perceptual codec at 1.5mbit/sec (i.e. it does not use the characteristics of human hearing system), WMA Pro does use its perceptual model even at these higher rates. So it is only taking things away that it considers inaudible. This, coupled with its more efficient coding scheme allows better fidelity.

Note that WMA Pro is able to produce even higher quality when used outside of this context. Here, we have to run with very low latency and in real-time with lower MIPS usage. When used in our standard library for offline encoding, it does not have to have such limits. As such, it can produce the same quality you are hearing, at probably half the rate.

Apologies if this is a naive question.... (Please correct the following as needed)

If i select Dolby TrueHD via Display>Audio whilst playing a HD DVD on Xbox what is actually output via optical?

Is it DD, DTS or WMA pro?

If WMA pro provides the 'best' fidelity is it only available if there is a WMA track on the DVD?
What is the optimum arrangement for Xbox audio?

Is it correct that a HD DVD can contain any of the following: DD, DD+, DTS, WMA pro, TrueHD?

Therefore is the Xbox's response:

DD>DD
DD+>DD
DTS>DTS
WMApro>WMApro
TrueHD>DD

Therefore making either DTS or WMA the preffered choice?
Or does the higher initial quality of TrueHD even when ouput as DD provide a higher quality alternative?

I appreciate that the answer to some of these questions may well be subjective, but i am just trying to get a handle on my options and the perceived expectation of the result.

Many thanks

If i select Dolby TrueHD via Display>Audio whilst playing a HD DVD on Xbox what is actually output via optical?

Is it DD, DTS or WMA pro?
You get the audio codec you selected for the output, irrespective of what the audio codec or codecs on the disc is.

If WMA pro provides the 'best' fidelity is it only available if there is a WMA track on the DVD?
What is the optimum arrangement for Xbox audio?
Nope, if you've got a WMA Pro capable reciever, just set the player to WMA Pro and you'll get optimum audio quality for all your discs.

Is it correct that a HD DVD can contain any of the following: DD, DD+, DTS, WMA pro, TrueHD?
It could also have PCM. WMA Pro is an optional secondary audio codec, and I haven't seen it used in mass-market titles yet.

Therefore is the Xbox's response:

DD>DD
DD+>DD
DTS>DTS
WMApro>WMApro
TrueHD>DD

Therefore making either DTS or WMA the preffered choice?
Or does the higher initial quality of TrueHD even when ouput as DD provide a higher quality alternative?
The latter - whatever your source audio, it gets recompressed to the selected output codec. So TrueHD -> WMA Pro is theoretically the best option.
[/QUOTE]

Many XBox owners live in areas where broadband is not yet available. When will the HD DVD update, and the dashboard update, be available over the internet?

Why weren't these updates uploaded to the internet servers when they were uploaded to the Live servers? I realize without broadband we don't need most of the dash update, however, I, for one, am anxiously awaiting the VGA update.

Thanks!

Another one for paidgeek

I have heard that the current version on the Fifth Element has "officially been discontinued" with the new version due to ship as of Juy 17. I have also heard that retailers will sell through their current stock.

Living in Australia and relying on internet mail order for my discs, is there any way to differentiate this new version from the old one? I usually order from Amazon, but who knows what their stock levels are like and if I order after that date I would have no idea which version I would get (and if they have a huge stock level this could be the case for months).

Will this re-release get a proper new release ie new coverart or some remastered banner or an entirely new sku or am I stuck with pot luck. I have held off on this release in the hopes of getting a remaster.

One other question, is a remaster for House of Flying Daggers in the works at all.

I have kept my questions to Sony releases as I am aware this is your area of expertise.

Thanks for your time.

Momaw

The new version of TFE can be identified by the new SKU and by the fact that it has a Dolby lossless track included. It is not being released with an announcement that it is a new transfer, so don't look for package information to that effect.

HOFD will not be re-transferred in the forseeable future. The picture characteristics of this title are not releated to those that affected TFE.

You get the audio codec you selected for the output, irrespective of what the audio codec or codecs on the disc is.


Nope, if you've got a WMA Pro capable reciever, just set the player to WMA Pro and you'll get optimum audio quality for all your discs.


It could also have PCM. WMA Pro is an optional secondary audio codec, and I haven't seen it used in mass-market titles yet.


The latter - whatever your source audio, it gets recompressed to the selected output codec. So TrueHD -> WMA Pro is theoretically the best option.
[/QUOTE]

Ben,

Thanks, that helps alot.

One last Question:

Under audio settings, i have:

1.Digital Stereo (Is this DD?)
2.Dolby Digital 5.1 (Is this DTS?)
3. Dolby Digital with WMA Pro

Amir,
WRT the 360 outputting DD+, you've said a couple of things: 1) your receiver wouldn't understand it, 2) DD+ can't be output via Toslink. Well, new receivers are coming out this summer that will support all the high-def codecs (TrueHD, DTS MA, etc.). These codecs must be transported over HDMI. You also mentioned that the internal data pathways in the Elite don't have enough bandwidth to pass more than 2 channel PCM, or 1.5 Mbps DTS/WMA Pro. So, given a DD+ plus stream, could you not output it over the HDMI in the Elite?
HDMI 1.3 is required to support sending compressed streams over HDMI. We are not claiming HDM 1.3 compliance. Even Sony who does claim compliance with PS3, is now saying that they do not support compressed streams over HDMI. That is an optional feature even in HDMI 1.3 so unless you use the right transceiver chips, you are out of luck. If you all think BD vs HD DVD is a bad thing, just pour over the specs and myriads of confusing and optional features of HDMI and you get a real sense of where problems in this world are :).

Receivers will soon be able to decode it, it will be passed over HDMI, and it fits within bandwidth limits used by other codecs already.
The questions put to me was in the context of what people could get out of the Toslink output because that is the port on millions of 360s people have. And it mates nicely with the millions of AVRS out there with the same connection. With our latest release, we now provide so many ways to get the absolutely best quality out of that port, without obsolescing anyone's receivers. No other CE product provides this level of flexibility in preserving everyone’s investments.

Also keep in mind that many of the scenarios in HD DVD don’t work right with compressed codec output. You would lose all PiP functionality for example as you won’t be able to hear the audio from secondary video decoder. Yes, some people don’t care and want the HDMI audio. In that case, my suggestion is to buy a Toshiba player which with its new $100 price drop, seemingly as cheap as water. I think filling my car’s gas thank in US is soon going to be more expensive than buying this HD DVD player! :D

The only possible issue I see with it is because of HDi and audio mixing, the stream has to be decoded already, and there just wouldn't be enough CPU power left to reencode as DD+ (although I would guess the WMA Pro encode would be more CPU intensive, especially given comments from Roger that DD+ is more of a structural change from DD than very much of an actual encoding change).
I don’t see any issue with encoding into DD+ as opposed to DD.

1.Digital Stereo (Is this DD?)
2.Dolby Digital 5.1 (Is this DTS?)
3. Dolby Digital with WMA Pro

First one is stereo PCM. No compression. So for stereo material, you are good to go.

First one is stereo PCM. No compression. So for stereo material, you are good to go.

Sorry am still puzzled! (maybe i need coffee!)

I saw this explanation:

* Option to output ALL HD DVD audio as DTS 1.5Mbps (list includes DD+, TrueHD, DTS, and any other audio option offered on HD DVD discs I may have missed)
* Option to output ALL HD DVD audio as DD 640Kbps, (which it currently does, but will be fixed from the Night Mode bug), list includes DD+, TrueHD, DTS, and any other audio option offered on HD DVD discs that I may have missed.
* Option to output ALL HD DVD audio as WMAPro (768Kbps I think), (list includes DD+, TrueHD, DTS, and any other audio option offered on HD DVD discs I may have missed) for those receivers that support WMA.

The options i have are:

1. Digital Stereo (PCM)
2. Dolby Digital 5.1
3. DD wi WMAp (WMA)

How do DD and DTS fit in?

{snip}

It could also have PCM. WMA Pro is an optional secondary audio codec, and I haven't seen it used in mass-market titles yet.

{snip}



Ben, a follow-up to this:

You mention this as a "secondary" audio codec. I had seen it posted previously that WMA Pro was only spec'ed as a decoder for secondary streams, is that what you meant?

In other words, a title cannot use WMA Pro for the priamry movie feature... is that correct?

Thanks.

Sorry am still puzzled! (maybe i need coffee!)

I saw this explanation:

* Option to output ALL HD DVD audio as DTS 1.5Mbps (list includes DD+, TrueHD, DTS, and any other audio option offered on HD DVD discs I may have missed)
* Option to output ALL HD DVD audio as DD 640Kbps, (which it currently does, but will be fixed from the Night Mode bug), list includes DD+, TrueHD, DTS, and any other audio option offered on HD DVD discs that I may have missed.
* Option to output ALL HD DVD audio as WMAPro (768Kbps I think), (list includes DD+, TrueHD, DTS, and any other audio option offered on HD DVD discs I may have missed) for those receivers that support WMA.

The options i have are:

1. Digital Stereo (PCM)
2. Dolby Digital 5.1
3. DD wi WMAp (WMA)

How do DD and DTS fit in?
Are you looking at the consoloe/dashboard output settings or HD DVD? They are different.

Any plans for Hero (the Zhang Yimou one) on either format (likely Blu-ray) any time soon?

Hi paidgeek,

Are you still privvy to MGM releases? I know Fox is distributing their blu ray releases now, but I was wondering if they ever nailed down when the recently remastered Bond Films will be released on Blu ray?

That is an optional feature even in HDMI 1.3 so unless you use the right transceiver chips, you are out of luck. If you all think BD vs HD DVD is a bad thing, just pour over the specs and myriads of confusing and optional features of HDMI and you get a real sense of where problems in this world are :).I think this needs to be hammered home. Just having an HDMI 1.3 input or output means nothing. Various HDMI 1.3 chips optionally support various HDMI 1.3 features. And those features require firmware support, even if the hardware is there.

The new version of TFE can be identified by the new SKU and by the fact that it has a Dolby lossless track included. It is not being released with an announcement that it is a new transfer, so don't look for package information to that effect.

Could you at least change that hideous cover art?

Amir,

Perhaps you missed my questions the first time I asked. I am hoping you could answer these for me.

I love both the new Spring Dashboard Update and the HDDVD update, but I noticed 2 of my most wanted features haven't been implemented, or I am an idiot and missed them.

1. Can we get an option to have games and the Dashboard to render at 720p, but HDDVDs play at 1080i? Movies look better at 1080i on my TV, but games look best at their native 720p.

2. Can we get an option as to which drive tray opens when we press the Open/Close button on the media remote. Perhaps some type of timing system could be implemented where one quick press opens the console tray and 2 quick presses or a longer press opens the HDDVD tray. I would suspect most people who have the HDDVD drive play all media through the addon now so haveing the media remote open the console tray is a bit useless.

Again if these changes made it into the 2 latest updates, forgive me because I have been unable to find them.

Thanks!

Are you looking at the consoloe/dashboard output settings or HD DVD? They are different.

Ah.... (lightbulb)

Sorry hadn't found that menu! (hd dvd>display>digital audio)

So am i correct that whatever is selected in the HD dvd menu overrides whatever is in the system blade?

Would you then put our options in the following order of preference?

HD DVD > Output
TrueHD > WMA Pro
TrueHD > DTS
DD+ > DTS ?
DD+ > DD

You get the audio codec you selected for the output, irrespective of what the audio codec or codecs on the disc is.


Nope, if you've got a WMA Pro capable reciever, just set the player to WMA Pro and you'll get optimum audio quality for all your discs.


It could also have PCM. WMA Pro is an optional secondary audio codec, and I haven't seen it used in mass-market titles yet.


The latter - whatever your source audio, it gets recompressed to the selected output codec. So TrueHD -> WMA Pro is theoretically the best option.
[/QUOTE]

Amir for you??

OK, here I go, I tried new firmware on my HD DRIVE with KK, as KK does not have any DTS HD soundtrack, only DD ENG PRO HD etc..So, by default I chose that.

I chose DD 5.1 on digital audio option on my HD DVD drive display and sound was puny as before to my dislikening..mind you dynamic compression was set to OFF.

Now I select DTS option and VOILA! My reciever display it as DTS 5.1 with 7.1 overlay, and sound is bigger and fuller, equivalent to DD that I recorded on my DVR with DD, played back through digital out put.

WMA pro selected..no sound as nither my reciever, nor xbox 360 has that decoder.

So, now if I may ask/ If I am able to choose DTS option on my HD DVD drive audio options, and get fuller sound, irrespective of movie disc, having DTS option or not..I should be OK! I guess??

So, now if I may ask/ If I am able to choose DTS option on my HD DVD drive audio options, and get fuller sound, irrespective of movie disc, having DTS option or not..I should be OK! I guess??

Yes. You can select DTS output and it will output in that format regardless of what codec technology is used on the disc. So if you like DTS best, then by all means, select that and you are good to go.

BTW everyeone, looks like we are running on a new software revision of the forum and it puts a slashQuote at the beg. of the post which screws up formatting. So you may want to edit that before posting.

I think this needs to be hammered home. Just having an HDMI 1.3 input or output means nothing. Various HDMI 1.3 chips optionally support various HDMI 1.3 features. And those features require firmware support, even if the hardware is there.

Since we are hammering, what about switchers and repeaters that are spec'd at v1.3. Are they subject to these v1.3 chip variances or will we be ensured of full pass-through performance.

Yes. You can select DTS output and it will output in that format regardless of what codec technology is used on the disc. So if you like DTS best, then by all means, select that and you are good to go.

BTW everyeone, looks like we are running on a new software revision of the forum and it puts a slashQuote at the beg. of the post which screws up formatting. So you may want to edit that before posting.

Thanks Amir,

If you had KK, may Iask, your impressions?

Paidgeek, any news on Starship Troopers and Bad Boys yet?

HI Amir! any news in when the add on update is gonna be available for download on xbox.com? also, did you find out why Universal stopped supporting spanish subtitles in all new releases? thanx in advance

To all MS Insiders,

First of all, thanks for all your hard work on getting the updates out to us. They are much appreciated.

Most standalone DVD players feature frame advance (pause, then Pause button to advance frame by frame), slo-mo, etc. However the 360 player only allows for FF, RW, Play and Pause.


Now that the audio update is out of the gate, I would like to ask if any of the above features have been considered, may be on the horizon, or are scheduled for the next update.


Also, in my Dashboard I have turned the 360 sound effects to OFF, so I don't get annoyingly loud sound effects if a friend comes online, etc., when I'm watching a movie at -10 below reference level. However the sound effects in the Advanced menu bar (Digital Audio for example) still have the beep. Would it be possible to have this sound effect read ON/OFF status from the Dashboard, or just disable that sound altogether? Often when switching audio formats to compare, we do it with the volume at very high levels, and this bloop sound is rather loud at those levels.

I also noticed that when in the Digital Audio menu, switching to a different codec causes a brief pause, then the audio resumes. But about 3~4 seconds later the audio cuts out again momentarily. I assume this is nothing / by design, but is there anything to it?


Lastly, I don't know if this can be answered, but regarding the DD and DTS output... I know some people's receivers reduce DTS by 4dB, but mine is not one of them. But in testing a few scenes last night (Tokyo Drift - "My Ride" parking garage, Dreamgirls song, and Children of Men in the car before the attack, and the Universal start-up animation at the beginning of discs), I couldn't discern a difference that I could reproduce. If I thought I heard something different in one, it would still be there when I switched back to the other format. I can't seem to tell a difference between the two, at least with my short testing. However some people say there's a big difference in clarity (although I don't think anyone has done it "blind"). So, my last question is, is there anything inherent or "there by design" in the re-encoding to DD and DTS that would cause there to be differences in audio (surround speaker separation, center channel level, etc.)? If so, what are the inherent differences, even if slight? Or should they sound virtually the same, at least in theory, notwithstanding how the user's receiver decodes and plays the audio back?


Thank you!


PS - I also have another question here from late last night:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10559053&&#post10559053

I think this needs to be hammered home. Just having an HDMI 1.3 input or output means nothing. Various HDMI 1.3 chips optionally support various HDMI 1.3 features. And those features require firmware support, even if the hardware is there.

Keith,

Could you describe/characterize the similarities and differences of mpeg-2/avc/vc-1 decoding hardware in CE devices vs. computer video cards? Have you had any involvement with Intel, AMD(ATI), or Nvidia in the GPU arena?

Thanks Amir,

If you had KK, may Iask, your impressions?
You mean King Kong? If so, it used to be one of our top demo reals until a few new movies unseated it just recently (i.e. Matrix, see http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/matrix_umc.html). So I really think highly of the audio/video experience on this title, especially given the long length of this movie....

HI Amir! any news in when the add on update is gonna be available for download on xbox.com?
I don't unfortunately. I have asked the question and will report back what I find out.

also, did you find out why Universal stopped supporting spanish subtitles in all new releases? thanx in advance
I have confirmed that they have done it. But I am minding my own business on why, lest they want to start telling us how to write code. :)

To all MS Insiders,

First of all, thanks for all your hard work on getting the updates out to us. They are much appreciated.

Most standalone DVD players feature frame advance (pause, then Pause button to advance frame by frame), slo-mo, etc. However the 360 player only allows for FF, RW, Play and Pause.


Now that the audio update is out of the gate, I would like to ask if any of the above features have been considered, may be on the horizon, or are scheduled for the next update.


Also, in my Dashboard I have turned the 360 sound effects to OFF, so I don't get annoyingly loud sound effects if a friend comes online, etc., when I'm watching a movie at -10 below reference level. However the sound effects in the Advanced menu bar (Digital Audio for example) still have the beep. Would it be possible to have this sound effect read ON/OFF status from the Dashboard, or just disable that sound altogether? Often when switching audio formats to compare, we do it with the volume at very high levels, and this bloop sound is rather loud at those levels.
Thanks for the feedback and kind words. I have passed on the list to the team for consideration.

I also noticed that when in the Digital Audio menu, switching to a different codec causes a brief pause, then the audio resumes. But about 3~4 seconds later the audio cuts out again momentarily. I assume this is nothing / by design, but is there anything to it?
Yes. When you switch codecs, there is some up front setup time. And you have to gracefully switch (i.e. by muting) digital audio as otherwise, you could get a loud pop.

Lastly, I don't know if this can be answered, but regarding the DD and DTS output... I know some people's receivers reduce DTS by 4dB, but mine is not one of them. But in testing a few scenes last night (Tokyo Drift - "My Ride" parking garage, Dreamgirls song, and Children of Men in the car before the attack, and the Universal start-up animation at the beginning of discs), I couldn't discern a difference that I could reproduce. If I thought I heard something different in one, it would still be there when I switched back to the other format. I can't seem to tell a difference between the two, at least with my short testing. However some people say there's a big difference in clarity (although I don't think anyone has done it "blind"). So, my last question is, is there anything inherent or "there by design" in the re-encoding to DD and DTS that would cause there to be differences in audio (surround speaker separation, center channel level, etc.)? If so, what are the inherent differences, even if slight? Or should they sound virtually the same, at least in theory, notwithstanding how the user's receiver decodes and plays the audio back?
The two codecs are wildly different in how they encode their material. So there are definite sonic differences. Whether you hear them or not, depends on what content and your ears. In general, I would say DD is more efficient than DTS, but it has to run at 640kbps vs 1.5 mbit/sec. It is very hard to compensate for that much difference in bit rate. On the other hand, DD is a preceptual codec is it does a better of job of hiding what it is taking away. DTS on the other hand, is more or less zipping the audio and only in extreme situations, is throwing away stuff (but when it does, it doesn't do as a good a job as DD). So depending the circumstance, one or the other may sound slightly better.

At the end of the day though, you should go by what your ears tell you. If you can't tell the difference, decide which logo looks cooler on your AVR and pick that! :D

PS - I also have another question here from late last night:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10559053&&#post10559053
There is not enough info there for me to comment on. We need to know what looks bad, what the model number of the Visio is, and what resolution it is being fed. Even then, it may be hard to dignose but we can at least take a shot at it.

Thanks for the response, Amir!!!

Any MS insider
With the updates out, could someone respond on why now anything in Dolby Stereo no longer produces sound? I tested this in the HD-DVD options, and when it's on Stereo, all sound is gone. re-connecting the optical cable does nothing, and it's still identified as a Dolby sound source, just it can't be decoded for some reason.

Thanks for the feedback and kind words. I have passed on the list to the team for consideration.


Yes. When you switch codecs, there is some up front setup time. And you have to gracefully switch (i.e. by muting) digital audio as otherwise, you could get a loud pop.


The two codecs are wildly different in how they encode their material. So there are definite sonic differences. Whether you hear them or not, depends on what content and your ears. In general, I would say DD is more efficient than DTS, but it has to run at 640kbps vs 1.5 mbit/sec. It is very hard to compensate for that much difference in bit rate. On the other hand, DD is a preceptual codec is it does a better of job of hiding what it is taking away. DTS on the other hand, is more or less zipping the audio and only in extreme situations, is throwing away stuff (but when it does, it doesn't do as a good a job as DD). So depending the circumstance, one or the other may sound slightly better.

At the end of the day though, you should go by what your ears tell you. If you can't tell the difference, decide which logo looks cooler on your AVR and pick that! :D


There is not enough info there for me to comment on. We need to know what looks bad, what the model number of the Visio is, and what resolution it is being fed. Even then, it may be hard to dignose but we can at least take a shot at it.

Having spent some time with all the codecs now, I would say WMA Pro has the edge in fidelity and openess. Using King Kong, the part that did it for me was were the girl screams at the top of her lungs. On DD it was very loud and harsh. On DTS it was very good, not so harsh however it lacked the dynamic punch of DD, but when I switched to WMA PRO, I was simply blown away. Wma seems to have great dynamics and openess, without being harsh. I am definitely going to keep it on Wma for now on.

Having spent some time with all the codecs now, I would say WMA Pro has the edge in fidelity and openess. Using King Kong, the part that did it for me was were the girl screams at the top of her lungs. On DD it was very loud and harsh. On DTS it was very good, not so harsh however it lacked the dynamic punch of DD, but when I switched to WMA PRO, I was simply blown away. Wma seems to have great dynamics and openess, without being harsh. I am definitely going to keep it on Wma for now on.
Thank you for the kind words. WMA Pro is one of our sleeper technologies. It is great to see its values becoming more apparent this way.

Having spent some time with all the codecs now, I would say WMA Pro has the edge in fidelity and openess. Using King Kong, the part that did it for me was were the girl screams at the top of her lungs. On DD it was very loud and harsh. On DTS it was very good, not so harsh however it lacked the dynamic punch of DD, but when I switched to WMA PRO, I was simply blown away. Wma seems to have great dynamics and openess, without being harsh. I am definitely going to keep it on Wma for now on.

PARASITE, I've also come to this conclusion about WMA Pro. What sold me was the "HIGHWAY Scene" in MI:3. The WMA Pro addition has been a very pleasant surprised & a gr-8 addition by MICROSOFT for those of us who have receivers which can decode WMA Pro... :D

Amir/MS
I've just been on the phone to CS here in HK with yet another faulty 360 (3rd in 2 months), this time i get the error msg 'E 79'.
Now the CS here is very good, the representatives are friendly and the whole experience is rather good. Now after i told CS the issue with E79, he replied 'Thats unique to us'. I wish he had not as now the curiosity factor has grown and i would like to know what the 'E 79' error is.
Soooo, Amir or other MS insiders, what is the error 'E 79' in the 360?
Thanks
Will
PS, is there a list of receivers that decode WMA Pro?
Thanks.

The new version of TFE can be identified by the new SKU and by the fact that it has a Dolby lossless track included. It is not being released with an announcement that it is a new transfer, so don't look for package information to that effect.

HOFD will not be re-transferred in the forseeable future. The picture characteristics of this title are not releated to those that affected TFE.

Will SPE still be offering a swap program on this title?

Amir/MS
I've just been on the phone to CS here in HK with yet another faulty 360 (3rd in 2 months), this time i get the error msg 'E 79'.
Now the CS here is very good, the representatives are friendly and the whole experience is rather good. Now after i told CS the issue with E79, he replied 'Thats unique to us'. I wish he had not as now the curiosity factor has grown and i would like to know what the 'E 79' error is.
Soooo, Amir or other MS insiders, what is the error 'E 79' in the 360?
Thanks
I am sorry you are having problems like that. I checked with folks and they say that error means your hardware is bad (dah! :)). So you should keep working with CS there to get it resolved. Should you not get resolution soon, PM me and I will see if I can help out (folks, this is not a generic offer to make good on Xbox support things :). Just trying to to offer something given the grief he has been through).

PS, is there a list of receivers that decode WMA Pro?
I believe Pioneer is the only one supporting it. I understand it is their full line through from cheap AVRs to expensive ones.

On Xbox 360 update being available on Xbox.com, just heard that it should be before end of the month.

The new version of TFE can be identified by the new SKU and by the fact that it has a Dolby lossless track included. It is not being released with an announcement that it is a new transfer, so don't look for package information to that effect.

Paidgeek,

when does this new disc hit the streets? I didn't purchase the first release, so I'm not asking for swap-information... I just want to know when I should start to scour the shelves at the local Best-Buy for the new copy.

I'm assuming that it's safest to get this from a B&M given that one will need to inspect the back of the packging closely to determine if it's the new or old release.

thanks!

dave :)

I am sorry you are having problems like that. I checked with folks and they say that error means your hardware is bad (dah! :)). So you should keep working with CS there to get it resolved. Should you not get resolution soon, PM me and I will see if I can help out (folks, this is not a generic offer to make good on Xbox support things :). Just trying to to offer something given the grief he has been through).


I believe Pioneer is the only one supporting it. I understand it is their full line through from cheap AVRs to expensive ones.
Thanks Amirm,
The CS here is good so the whole thing has been no problem at all, i think it was just my curiosity getting the better of me as i wanted to know what part of the hardware has gone a bit nutty:)
Do Denon have eny plans for WMA Pro supporting receivers?
Thanks again

Also keep in mind that many of the scenarios in HD DVD don’t work right with compressed codec output. You would lose all PiP functionality for example as you won’t be able to hear the audio from secondary video decoder. Yes, some people don’t care and want the HDMI audio. In that case, my suggestion is to buy a Toshiba player which with its new $100 price drop, seemingly as cheap as water.

Hi Amir

The two low-end toshiba hd-dvd players don't sport analogue 5.1 outputs and apparently provide "HDMI audio support for PCM only".

Excuse my ignorance, but does this mean the audio from truehd soundtracks is pushed as 5.1 PCM audio through HDMI to my amp (like the analogue outputs would give me) or not?

Hi Amir

The two low-end toshiba hd-dvd players don't sport analogue 5.1 outputs and apparently provide "HDMI audio support for PCM only".

Excuse my ignorance, but does this mean the audio from truehd soundtracks is pushed as 5.1 PCM audio through HDMI to my amp (like the analogue outputs would give me) or not?
Yes, they are equiv. In one case, you send an analog stream. In the other, digital. In both cases TrueHD is decoded in the player. There is a slight peference to the digital/HDMI path for some AVRs which attempt to digitize their analog inputs before outputting. In these systems, you wind up digitizing the audio and then converting them back to analog yet again. With HDMI audio, you avoid this (whether you hear the difference though, is another matter).

Hopefully I didn't confuse you with the extra explanation :).

Amirm,

Thank you very much providing inside info for HD DVD. Your contribution to this forum is just awesome.

I have just experimented with uncompressed PCM 2.0 down mixed from 5.1 LPCM source on PS3 feeding my Panny receiver via toslink. All I can say is that the fidelity of 2.0 uncompressed PCM sounds MUCH MUCH better than the lossy DD/DTS 5.1 tracks. With PLIIx processing I still get great surround sound effects but now with high fidelity.

The question is: Can Xbox 360 provide uncompressed down mixed PCM 2.0 output from Dolby TrueHD or DTS HD MA tracks as another toslink output option (First decode Dolby TrueHD/DTS HD MA to 5.1 LCPM internally then down mix it to 2.0 LPCM internally then output as 2.0 PCM) ?

After my PS3's experiment, I have been convinced that even 2.0 PCM uncompressed sound processed by PLIIx logic sounds MUCH better than ANY lossy DD/DTS 5.1 output.

Thanks

Amir, the Xbox 360 with the Spring HD-DVD update still cannot play the HD-DVD "Discovery Atlas: Italy Revealed". Are there still known issues with some discs?

Edit: Never mind. This disc appeared to crash my 360 HD-DVD player the first 2 times I tried it, but now it's working fine. Happened during the transition from the copyright warning to the main menu. Might have been because I pressed the "DVD Menu" and/or fast forward buttons during the copyright warning...but now I can't recreate it. Weird.

Hi Amirm
From which HD device do you enjoy your own movies? I am on the thinking of moving from the add on to a stand alone solution.

Secondly could MS think of releasing a "true" elite add on for the xbox360, which could support all audio formats (maby by analoges). I love the interface and interaction with friend list and messenger through the dash, while seeing movies, but dislikes my NO-abiity to take fully advantage for next gen sound.

Thanks in advance for your comments.
Regards
Martin Lynge

Changes coming to the Insiders thread?

we have received requests to have a separate Insiders thread for Xbox questions: the rules of the new thread will be identical to this one: just limited to Xbox

If we set this up, we ask that you be sure to post to the appropriate thread

Any ideas for this split? please PM me (do not post)

Thanks!

Here are some questions regarding Toshiba HD-DVD Players. Since I'm not aware of a Toshiba insider posting here, I would be very glad if Amir or any HD-DVD insider picks up the questions. Thanks a lot in advance! :)

1. I've read somewhere that the 2nd gen HDDVD-Players (XE1 and XA2) have been used to demonstrate DTS-MA decoding capabilities to the public during demo sessions. Are these players able to handle DTS-MA by design, or would (besides firmware) any kind of hardware extension be required to upgrade these players from the DTS-Core option to a full DTS-MA support? DTS-MA is one of the rare features which are not fully available yet and I feel it would be great to have as several Studio Canal titles come with DTS-MA (which is by the way a good thing in my opinion).

2. To be specific: is there anything in the works for 1st and 2nd gen players which will allow DTS-MA support?

3. As you might know the "display statistics" option of the HD-XE1 informs about the audio and video codec and resolution of the disc which is played, but it would be great to have the following information added to that info box:
- remaining playing time of the disc
- remaining playing time of the actual chapter (not that important)
- an information about the pictures per second which the movie is stored ON THE DISC

The remaining playing time is a feature which I'm missing on the player - mostly for physical reasons (to assess if it's time for a break or to decide to watch the rest of the movie... :D ), whereas the pictures per second would be great to know as it helps to judge certain aspects of movie quality (e.g. judder effects) and to select the best viewing device to be used.

So the question is: Are you aware of firmware development activities which would add those features to the XE1 and other HD-DVD players? In case this is not known/decided yet I would highly appreciate that someone passes these feature requests to Toshiba for consideration.

Thanks,
Torsten

Hi paidgeek,

Are you still privvy to MGM releases? I know Fox is distributing their blu ray releases now, but I was wondering if they ever nailed down when the recently remastered Bond Films will be released on Blu ray?

I am not in the loop on the catalog Bond releases from MGM. I am looking forward to them though...

Paidgeek,

when does this new disc hit the streets? I didn't purchase the first release, so I'm not asking for swap-information... I just want to know when I should start to scour the shelves at the local Best-Buy for the new copy.

I'm assuming that it's safest to get this from a B&M given that one will need to inspect the back of the packging closely to determine if it's the new or old release.

thanks!

dave :)

Dave,

You should be able to get the new version in stores by mid-July.

Will SPE still be offering a swap program on this title?

Yes, we promised, we'll deliver...

Amir,

Thanks again for the incredible update...my Denon AVR-3805 (BTW do you have an opinion of this AVR?) has simply never sounded so great...I have watched Bourne Supremacy prolly about 10 times, but last night for the first time watching it after the update...I am hearing things I've never heard before, its like watching the movie for the first time....many thanks!

I do have a question though. Prior to the update I could watch DVD movies that were DD and my 360 would send a DD signal to my AVR (DVD I tried last night was Scent of a Woman). Now after the update its only sending stero to my AVR and the AVR is just putting out stero. Is this normal? How do I get surround coming out of DVDs now?

Again many thanks!

Hi Amirm
From which HD device do you enjoy your own movies? I am on the thinking of moving from the add on to a stand alone solution.
As you can imagine, I have a lot of them :). I use the XA-2 in my main theater. A2 gets used in the family room (both of these drive Sony displays but one will be retired soon in favor of JVC). And XA-1 has been moved to the vacation home (OK, so I watch movies there -- so shoot me :D).

The Xbox gets used by my teenage sons in their rooms. They play movies and games on it there.


Secondly could MS think of releasing a "true" elite add on for the xbox360, which could support all audio formats (maby by analoges). I love the interface and interaction with friend list and messenger through the dash, while seeing movies, but dislikes my NO-abiity to take fully advantage for next gen sound.
Me too :).

Thanks in advance for your comments.
Regards
Martin Lynge
My pleasure. Thanks for the feedback.

Amirm,

Thank you very much providing inside info for HD DVD. Your contribution to this forum is just awesome.
My pleasure!

I have just experimented with uncompressed PCM 2.0 down mixed from 5.1 LPCM source on PS3 feeding my Panny receiver via toslink. All I can say is that the fidelity of 2.0 uncompressed PCM sounds MUCH MUCH better than the lossy DD/DTS 5.1 tracks. With PLIIx processing I still get great surround sound effects but now with high fidelity.

The question is: Can Xbox 360 provide uncompressed down mixed PCM 2.0 output from Dolby TrueHD or DTS HD MA tracks as another toslink output option (First decode Dolby TrueHD/DTS HD MA to 5.1 LCPM internally then down mix it to 2.0 LPCM internally then output as 2.0 PCM) ?
It certainly can. Just select PCM stereo and you have uncompressed output, even on S/PDIF and Toslink.

After my PS3's experiment, I have been convinced that even 2.0 PCM uncompressed sound processed by PLIIx logic sounds MUCH better than ANY lossy DD/DTS 5.1 output.

Thanks
You are basically trading full accuracy of surround info for the last bit of quality. So I am not surprised that some people would prefer one over the other.

Amir, great news that the HD DVD hardware will output 2.0 PCM if "PCM" is selected in the setup when playing a lossless TrueHD stream.

I have just experimented with uncompressed PCM 2.0 down mixed from 5.1 LPCM source on PS3 feeding my Panny receiver via toslink. All I can say is that the fidelity of 2.0 uncompressed PCM sounds MUCH MUCH better than the lossy DD/DTS 5.1 tracks. With PLIIx processing I still get great surround sound effects but now with high fidelity.

The question is: Can Xbox 360 provide uncompressed down mixed PCM 2.0 output from Dolby TrueHD or DTS HD MA tracks as another toslink output option (First decode Dolby TrueHD/DTS HD MA to 5.1 LCPM internally then down mix it to 2.0 LPCM internally then output as 2.0 PCM) ?

After my PS3's experiment, I have been convinced that even 2.0 PCM uncompressed sound processed by PLIIx logic sounds MUCH better than ANY lossy DD/DTS 5.1 output.

I concur.

In fact, in my Blu-ray Disc reviews of Chicago, The Queen, and Open Season at dvdfile.com I've stated this in the audio portion of each review. For those without HDMI or multi-channel analog input, it's a great way to get lossless audio quality NOW, simply sacrificing 5.1 discrete in favor of DPL II. I'm continually amazed how directional the surround panning is with Dolby PL 2 and continually amazed how much BETTER it sounds running lossless in 2.0 mode to my receiver than choosing *any* 5.1 Lossy track.

Naturally, 5.1 lossless in native form would be better still. But having to choose lossless in 2.0 (ProLogic II) mode over 5.1 lossy, 2.0 lossless wins every ear-test so far.

Question for PaidGeek : Is Jumanji in work for Blu-Ray? i remember this was one of the first DVD release from Columbia. It's one of my fav kid action/fantasy movie of the 90's

Industry Insiders Xbox and PS3 Q&A thread: : Xbox and PS3 ONLY (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10573046&&#post10573046)

Above is a link to use for Xbox and PS3 Questions to Insiders: by popular demand we are creating a separate Insiders Thread ONLY for Xbox and PS3: the rules and list of approved Insiders is identical to this thread

Please use the appropriate thread for you questions

Thanks

"Above is a link to use for Xbox and PS3 Questions to Insiders: by popular demand we are creating a separate Insiders Thread ONLY for Xbox and PS3: the rules and list of approved Insiders is identical to this thread

Please use the appropriate thread for you questions"


So do questions about the Xbox 360 HD-DVD add-on or HD-DVD playback through the 360 go here or there?

Industry Insiders Xbox and PS3 Q&A thread: : Xbox and PS3 ONLY (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10573046&&#post10573046)

Above is a link to use for Xbox and PS3 Questions to Insiders: by popular demand we are creating a separate Insiders Thread ONLY for Xbox and PS3: the rules and list of approved Insiders is identical to this thread

Please use the appropriate thread for you questions

Thanks

Thank you, thank you, thank you. OK, sorry, not a question. But I had to say it.

"Above is a link to use for Xbox and PS3 Questions to Insiders: by popular demand we are creating a separate Insiders Thread ONLY for Xbox and PS3: the rules and list of approved Insiders is identical to this thread

Please use the appropriate thread for you questions"


So do questions about the Xbox 360 HD-DVD add-on or HD-DVD playback through the 360 go here or there?



questions about Xbox 360 HD DVD add-on and related playback issues go in the new thread please


edited title of the new thread

Hopefully I didn't confuse you with the extra explanation :).

Thanks for the clarity.

I am contemplating purchasing the Toshiba HD-A20 when I am in California next month (that special is too good to pass up) but I can't find any mention of the included power supply specs on any website.

Do you know if the power supply is multi-voltage (110v-220v)?

I appreciate your help to date.

Thanks for the clarity.

I am contemplating purchasing the Toshiba HD-A20 when I am in California next month (that special is too good to pass up) but I can't find any mention of the included power supply specs on any website.

Do you know if the power supply is multi-voltage (110v-220v)?

I appreciate your help to date.
I am at our vacation home right now without access to A2 so can't look it up. Perhaps someone else can look in the back of the unit. XA1 unfortunately is 120v only.

Silly thing about this is that most switching power supplies can handle 220v. But it is more costly and difficult to get UL insurance on it so they opt to only certify it for 120v. So in many instances, the supply will work fine with higher voltages. Of course, if it does not, it will be the fastest you would be spending $300 :D. So better go with a transformer as the power consumption is pretty low....

Question for AACS insiders,

I am wrong to think that AACS has been a total and utter failure and a complete embarrasment to those involved with it's development.

Reading ars technica

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070517-latest-aacs-revision-defeated-a-week-before-release.html

paints a fairly comical picture.

We were lead to believe that revocation would keep things under control. That does not appear to be reality.

Are studios angry that AACS appeared easier to crack than CCS?

Or do the AACSers still maintain that everything is under control, what is the true story deep in the bowels of the Hollywood studios?

Dennis.

Amir, can you comment on this report of the HD-DVD group releasing 800 additional titles this year. The numbers seem to be exaggerated, especially the title counts for NOV and DEC.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=849308

Will Universal (or others) delay any of the planned title releases because of the untimely new AACS compromise?

- Tom

Perhaps this is a dumb question, but here it goes:

With constant tweaking to Video Encoding, is this mainly for more Efficiency with better results? Such as before a movie that was encoded at 15MBps VC-1 might now only take 12MBps to produce the same results of quality?

Also then would any of this translate into better compression of audio codecs? Or is lossless compression of audio (TrueHD) not able to be done more efficiently (assuming they keep the same encoding bit rate).

Thanks

Any reason why on HD DVD, extras are still MPEG2 and not H.264/VC-1?

I note that the four hour standard definition documentary on The Frighteners HD DVD is still MPEG2 and uses up 7.6 GiB worth of space.

Are Blu-ray titles using VC-1/H.264 for extras?

Any reason why on HD DVD, extras are still MPEG2 and not H.264/VC-1?

I can only speculate it is because the studio already has the content in that form from the DVD, and dont want to re-encode it.

However picture-in-picture content, even when originally on the DVD as old-fashioned Extras, is always re-encoded (in VC1 or, in rarer cases, H.264). I've never seen PIP in MPEG2.

Perhaps this is a dumb question, but here it goes:

With constant tweaking to Video Encoding, is this mainly for more Efficiency with better results? Such as before a movie that was encoded at 15MBps VC-1 might now only take 12MBps to produce the same results of quality?
It could. Except that for now, the studios are not interested in leaving discs half empty so they use the old rate, and take advantage of the improvements in the form of less hand optimizations. And potential micro-quality (quality improvements at the frame level which you might not see).


Also then would any of this translate into better compression of audio codecs? Or is lossless compression of audio (TrueHD) not able to be done more efficiently (assuming they keep the same encoding bit rate).

Thanks
Without knowing the MLP/THD algorithm in detail, I would say that it is unlikely that lossless compression itself gets better wrt to average rates as there are no subjective decisions being made in the codec.

We do hope that they get better wrt to how they use peak rate though. THD has regular peaks that go to maximum rate irrespective of the content being fed to it (i.e. even silence would have these regular peaks). This is done to allow seeking into the audio (i.e. for synchronization). But there are other ways to do this. And at any rate, neither WMA Pro or it seems, DTS lossless suffer from the same issue. Without this fix, TrueHD has a benefit in size, but not bandwidth. In reality, it should have that benefit in both domains as does VC-1 for video for example.

One more addition to my previous post. One way we can gain more average rate efficiency out of TrueHD is to use its little known feature which is to encode at any bit boundary. Unlike PCM, one can dial in 18, 19,21, 22 or whatever bit depth you want. There are analysis programs which can tell you the real resolution of source material. One can use the output of that tool, to best encode each channel and not allocate one extra bit beyond the real resolution of source material. By doing this, one can gain significant efficiency over PCM beyond where we are today.

Question for AACS insiders,

I am wrong to think that AACS has been a total and utter failure and a complete embarrasment to those involved with it's development.

Reading ars technica

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070517-latest-aacs-revision-defeated-a-week-before-release.html

paints a fairly comical picture.

We were lead to believe that revocation would keep things under control. That does not appear to be reality.

Are studios angry that AACS appeared easier to crack than CCS?

Or do the AACSers still maintain that everything is under control, what is the true story deep in the bowels of the Hollywood studios?

Dennis.

Working on AACS is not exactly a fun job during this particular period of time. So if by comical picture and complete embarrassment, you mean my current choice in career, well...

Just to clarify, the original attack was on certain software players that proved to be vulnerable, and did not and does not represent a widespread break in the AACS ecosystem. You have seen a revocation cycle occur which has required upgrades to certain software players to make them more robust to known styles of attack. The AACS system was designed to deal with these sorts of attacks, and remains intact as a technology. This is in contrast to CSS, which is vulnerable to direct, brute-force attacks.

The analogy we sometimes give is: if you lock your house, but leave the keys lying on the street, then there's really nothing wrong with the locks or with the concept of locks in general. If you don't find the keys, you can change the locks if you like.

We do not have much information yet on the newly reported attack, and are actively investigating.

To your other questions, I think it's fair to say that studios who have their content stripped of the protection are understandably unhappy. At the same time there seems to be no change in the universal use of AACS on next-gen titles.

Amir,

Are you aware if Denon will have wma pro in their new line up in this fall? I have just seen few pictures of those amps, but no info about wma pro :(

Thank you.

Without knowing the MLP/THD algorithm in detail, I would say that it is unlikely that lossless compression itself gets better wrt to average rates as there are no subjective decisions being made in the codec.

We do hope that they get better wrt to how they use peak rate though. THD has regular peaks that go to maximum rate irrespective of the content being fed to it (i.e. even silence would have these regular peaks). This is done to allow seeking into the audio (i.e. for synchronization). But there are other ways to do this. And at any rate, neither WMA Pro or it seems, DTS lossless suffer from the same issue. Without this fix, TrueHD has a benefit in size, but not bandwidth. In reality, it should have that benefit in both domains as does VC-1 for video for example.Just to clarify, in normal use, these regular peaks (frame headers) never reach the maximum bitrate of the format (18 Mbps) nor the maximum bitrate of the PCM source. The overall file is encoded VBR, and the encoder uses its FIFO method the flatten the worst case peaks to a set level for the whole file. This is roughly 1.7 Mbps below the PCM bitrate. Once that maximim bitrate is defined, the restart peaks will not exceed it. So TrueHD does provide benefits in both bandwidth usage (bitrate reduction) as well as file size.

Working on AACS is not exactly a fun job during this particular period of time. So if by comical picture and complete embarrassment, you mean my current choice in career, well...

Just to clarify, the original attack was on certain software players that proved to be vulnerable, and did not and does not represent a widespread break in the AACS ecosystem. You have seen a revocation cycle occur which has required upgrades to certain software players to make them more robust to known styles of attack. The AACS system was designed to deal with these sorts of attacks, and remains intact as a technology. This is in contrast to CSS, which is vulnerable to direct, brute-force attacks.

The analogy we sometimes give is: if you lock your house, but leave the keys lying on the street, then there's really nothing wrong with the locks or with the concept of locks in general. If you don't find the keys, you can change the locks if you like.

We do not have much information yet on the newly reported attack, and are actively investigating.

To your other questions, I think it's fair to say that studios who have their content stripped of the protection are understandably unhappy. At the same time there seems to be no change in the universal use of AACS on next-gen titles.

Thank you Richard for responding, and for responding honestly. Much appreciated.

My tone was a little strong, that was a little unintended. No slight was intended.

Question, is the true solution to never offer PC based solutions?

SACD not cracked (that I am aware of), no PC solutions exist.
CSS cracked, AACS (somewhat problematic at the moment), PC solutions exist.

The PC has been where both CSS and AACS have been compromised.

If no PC replay/drives existed it would seem to be very difficult to home-brew a crack.

I am being too simplistic?

Dennis.

One more addition to my previous post. One way we can gain more average rate efficiency out of TrueHD is to use its little known feature which is to encode at any bit boundary. Unlike PCM, one can dial in 18, 19,21, 22 or whatever bit depth you want. There are analysis programs which can tell you the real resolution of source material. One can use the output of that tool, to best encode each channel and not allocate one extra bit beyond the real resolution of source material. By doing this, one can gain significant efficiency over PCM beyond where we are today.Indeed! This is particularly valuable with "24 bit" sources that actually carry something like 12- or 14-bit audio, and lots of noise. Some of the old analog masters used to make DVD-A discs were like that.

In addition, one can use common sense in deciding which resolutions are most efficient for each stage in the content chain. Plenty of threads have covered this--the idea that a studio console and recorder needs 24 bits or more in order to preserve sufficient margin for gain changes, EQ, and all the other processing involved, without raising the noise floor of the content to audible levels. One could say the same of DSP processing in players or AVRs, where the bass management, room EQ, tone, surround processing, mixing, etc are all being performed. Hence, 24-bit DSPs are the norm. The lossless connective link betwen these two processing domains, however, does not need to exceed about 18 bits in order to avoid limiting the dynamic range for humans. Rounding up to be generous, we'd say 20 bits is more than sufficient. With the downstream AVR post-processing the 20-bit lossless audio in its 24-bit domain, it is fully able to maintain the 20-bit performance, hence the quality is unimpaired.

Using lossless coding at 20 bits compared to 24 saves 1 Mbps in bitrate (average and peak), which translates to about 1 GB of disc space, and that's all well worth having.

Roger Dressler,

This might not be your table.. Are companies still working with DVD Audio titles or will they shift for releasing titles on HD DVD and using Dolby TrueHD (as I understand Dolby TrueHD is like DVD Audio?) on those disc?

I really enjoy those DVD Audio titles I have and want more.

I think it's fair to say that studios who have their content stripped of the protection are understandably unhappy. At the same time there seems to be no change in the universal use of AACS on next-gen titles.


Richard,

Last time AACS was circumvented, there were rumors of complaints from some
studios, not to mention consumers, about the time it took to repair the damage.

If you can answer, is there anything in place to speed up the repairs this time
so that we don't have a repeat of Unversal and Studio Canal sitting on the
sideline for months?

Thanks for your participation in this thread and I understand if this cannot be
answered at this time.

Roger Dressler,

This might not be your table.. Are companies still working with DVD Audio titles or will they shift for releasing titles on HD DVD and using Dolby TrueHD (as I understand Dolby TrueHD is like DVD Audio?) on those disc?

I really enjoy those DVD Audio titles I have and want more.Good question, but I really have no good information to share about that.

Amir,

You say you have a XA-2 player in your setup, do you also own a Blu-Ray player. Just curious...

Amir,

You say you have a XA-2 player in your setup, do you also own a Blu-Ray player. Just curious...
Yes, more than I can count :). I have the Sony, Samsung (first gen), Panasonic and PS3. Each one acts differently on different material so we wind up having multiple units to get a better picture of what the competition is doing.

I should note that I can't bring myself to actually watch any full-length BD titles on them. The main use they get is comparison testing and that's all. Yes, it is crazy. I should be able to enjoy the movies on them. But... doing so reminds me of work too much :). One look at the blue cases and I can't bring myself to actually want to watch the movie and keep thinking of this format competition.

Even crazier.... When I am airplanes (which is a lot), I will watch any movies from BD studios on crappy LCD screens even though I have most if not all BD titles. It is only HD DVD movies which I reserve for watching when I get home.

Now, I will make an exception for two movies: The Fifth Element if Don's shop does a great job of cleaning up that title and does justice the second time around. And Spiderman. But as I type this, that would be hard too :). But maybe I hide the case under the couch and take the disc out with my eyes closed :D.

Are there any plans by Universal to release the extended King Kong (2005) edition, perhaps even with TrueHD this year?

It could. Except that for now, the studios are not interested in leaving discs half empty so they use the old rate, and take advantage of the improvements in the form of less hand optimizations. And potential micro-quality (quality improvements at the frame level which you might not see).


I should have stated where I was going with this, but if more efficiency is reached, would this mean movies like Lord of the Ring Extended Editions each fit on one disc and be able to have 7.1 channels of TrueHD? I would not want to see any PQ loss as a resuls.

If not, would this be where the potential 34GB or 51GB discs be the end solution?

I should have stated where I was going with this, but if more efficiency is reached, would this mean movies like Lord of the Ring Extended Editions each fit on one disc and be able to have 7.1 channels of TrueHD? I would not want to see any PQ loss as a resuls.
Not commenting on LOTR but yes, your point is most definitely valid.

If not, would this be where the potential 34GB or 51GB discs be the end solution?
Optimizing the VC-1 encoder gives people something for nothing. They get more efficiency without it costing them anything. So in that respect, it is always superior to larger discs.

Thank you Richard for responding, and for responding honestly. Much appreciated.

My tone was a little strong, that was a little unintended. No slight was intended.

Question, is the true solution to never offer PC based solutions?

SACD not cracked (that I am aware of), no PC solutions exist.
CSS cracked, AACS (somewhat problematic at the moment), PC solutions exist.

The PC has been where both CSS and AACS have been compromised.

If no PC replay/drives existed it would seem to be very difficult to home-brew a crack.

I am being too simplistic?

Dennis.

In the past PC's have typically been a big target for hacking activities, as they are designed to run arbitrary software programs. But the line between PCs and traditional CE devices is clearly blurring -- and many of the best PVR systems (in my opinion) are highly customizable and capable of running user-designed software.

But the most important aspect is simply that many people use their PCs and hybrid devices to watch movies. Designing a top-notch Windows Media Center box for your home theater demands that next-gen playback be supported. Microsoft in particular wants to be sure PCs are supported for all forms of entertainment (including next-gen optical), and we have a large customer base that are actively doing so.

It is true that all of the latest AACS attacks have focused on software playback products. Keep in mind, however, that AACS is aware of the history and attack vectors of PC playback systems, and there are several technical measures (such as KCD and the entire proactive renewal system) that are designed specifically to address the particular issues of PC-based protection.

Richard,

Last time AACS was circumvented, there were rumors of complaints from some
studios, not to mention consumers, about the time it took to repair the damage.

If you can answer, is there anything in place to speed up the repairs this time
so that we don't have a repeat of Unversal and Studio Canal sitting on the
sideline for months?

Thanks for your participation in this thread and I understand if this cannot be
answered at this time.

I can not speak for the studio rumors.

The time for AACS to perform a revocation, and the criteria that must be met, are not secrets. They are publicly available as part of the published license agreement which you can download at aacsla.com

AACS of course has the technical means to revoke overnight. But the current license agreement generally provides for 90 days. This is to allow time for the manufacturer to repair the product and presumably fix the vulnerability, and time to rollout the patches to the affected users.

It would be much worse for legitimate consumers to find themselves with a disc that cannot play and no patch available to allow it to play.

It would also be a poor situation if manufacturers were so rushed to put out a patched version of their program that they didn't fix the problem and the program simply gets rehacked.

The revocation time period is an attempt to find a balance between the interests of studios, consumers, and manufacturers.

Originally Posted by benwaggoner

{snip}

It could also have PCM. WMA Pro is an optional secondary audio codec, and I haven't seen it used in mass-market titles yet.

{snip}

Ben, a follow-up to this:

You mention this as a "secondary" audio codec. I had seen it posted previously that WMA Pro was only spec'ed as a decoder for secondary streams, is that what you meant?

In other words, a title cannot use WMA Pro for the priamry movie feature... is that correct?

Thanks.

Although I orginally addressed this as a response to Ben, would anybody be able to address this?

Thanks.

AACS of course has the technical means to revoke overnight. But the current license agreement generally provides for 90 days. This is to allow time for the manufacturer to repair the product and presumably fix the vulnerability, and time to rollout the patches to the affected users.

It would be much worse for legitimate consumers to find themselves with a disc that cannot play and no patch available to allow it to play.

Richard,

Thanks for the response, let me come at this another way, say XYZ's software player's processing key is found to have been exposed. If XYZ is able to patch and test their product and AACS signs off in 30 days, is the license agreement's 90 days going to hold true each time?

In your opinion, was the 90 days setup initially to give the vendors and AACS enough time to thoroughly test the first circumvention or do you see this as the norm with each break?

I apologize if some of this is listed on aacsla.com as I just started reading the specs.

Thanks.

Richard,

Thanks for the response, let me come at this another way, say XYZ's software player's processing key is found to have been exposed. If XYZ is able to patch and test their product and AACS signs off in 30 days, is the license agreement's 90 days going to hold true each time?

In your opinion, was the 90 days setup initially to give the vendors and AACS enough time to thoroughly test the first circumvention or do you see this as the norm with each break?

I apologize if some of this is listed on aacsla.com as I just started reading the specs.

Thanks.

AACS is of course free to accelerate the process and working in cooperation with the product manufacturer is always the best way to proceed. Assuming consumer impact was minimized, I'm sure all parties would be pleased by an acceleration.

This sort of thing would not be in the agreement, the agreement just lays out the maximum times.

Please feel free to ask more questions about that -- I'd hate to think you are trying to force yourself to read the entire 115 page agreement (in addition to the hundreds of pages of other agreements and specifications).

Is MS working on an improved VC-1 decoder?
Yes. The MS codec team is working on a better optimized version of the VC-1 decoder. However, you have to keep in mind that Windows OS is not our only platform or product. The new decoder will likely be seen in other products (i.e. Xbox, Silverlight) first before it makes its way into another Windows update (or release). Our team's human resources are finite so of course we must be careful only to sign up for deliverables we can actually handle.

CoreAVC seems to consume less CPU than Microsoft's VC-1 decoder (with comparable bitrates), which seems kind of backwards to me, since h264 is supposed to be more CPU demanding. That indicates potential for improvement in the VC-1 decoder.
New builds of the decoder are being designed to scale better on systems with more than 2 cores (current Windows decoder is only dual-threaded). Also, while current Windows VC-1 decoder supports DXVA decoding up to Profile C (iDCT, MoComp, PostProc done by GPU), future releases of the decoder might support full hardware decoding (aka Profile D or VLD). There's still room to improve, for sure.

As for CoreAVC... I used to be a big fan, but lately their star has been quickly fading. Their users are growing very impatient: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=999349#post999349

IIRC, Amir said that the current MS VC-1 decoder doesn't do the loop / deblocking filter stuff, which a full VC-1 decoder should do.The current Windows VC-1 implementation is spec compliant, and so has full support for the loop filter.
Like Ben said, the Windows decoder supports inloop filtering and postprocessing (deblocking+deringing). All that said... One thing to realize about the Windows VC-1 decoder is that it's still a WMV9 decoder first and foremost. Yes, it's VC-1 compliant, but it still relies heavily on the Windows Media ecosystem - ASF format, WM Format SDK, Media Foundation (Vista), and such. For the Vista/WMP11 release the decoder was still tested exclusively with ASF file sources. There are instances in which the decoder still relies on ASF for metadata (i.e. interlaced frame signaling) rather than on the VC-1 bitstream alone. One of the things we'll need to improve in future Windows releases is ensuring the decoder can work just as well when VC-1 is stored in other file formats (i.e. MPEG-TS, MP4) which is likely to become more common in the future.

Vista also has some VC-1 decode performance improvements over XP I believe. Also, we support DXVA for GPU hardware acceleration of VC-1 decode - if you're having performance issues and have a relatively modern GPU, you should see if DXVA is on and see if that helps.
Yep. Pretty much every Nvidia card from GeForce 6200 up has DXVA decoding support for VC-1 Advanced Profile as well as classic WMV9 SP/MP. Recent Nvidia 8600+ series has the highest Profile C support under Vista. Incidentally, that's the only advantage the Vista decoder has over XP and that's simply because XP doesn't support DXVA 2.0.
Other video IHVs are still working on their VC-1 DXVA support.

zambelli,
ATI is claiming VC1 full hardware decoding support for its 2400 and 2600 to be released in july. How is it possible ?

Thanks for your reply, zambelli!

There are instances in which the decoder still relies on ASF for metadata (i.e. interlaced frame signaling) rather than on the VC-1 bitstream alone. One of the things we'll need to improve in future Windows releases is ensuring the decoder can work just as well when VC-1 is stored in other file formats (i.e. MPEG-TS, MP4) which is likely to become more common in the future.
I'm usually converting all my movies to MKV - including my HD-DVDs. And as far as I can see, VC-1 in MKV through the MS decoder works just fine for me. What problems could I expect due to the missing ASF metadata?

P.S: Well, there's one problem: I get good playback only if I set the graphics card to 59.94Hz. With 23.976Hz, the VC-1 video is stuttering quite badly (and yes, of course the video is marked as 1080p23.976 in the MKV container). Don't have this problem with any other codec. Could that have to do with the missing ASF metadata?

Although I orginally addressed this as a response to Ben, would anybody be able to address this?

Thanks.
Yes, that is correct as a practical matter. If you don't include a mandatory audio codec, you have no assurance that anyone can hear it. Of course, you may not care in some situations but in most cases, you do.

Greetings

the separate thread for Xbox/Add on & PS3 is not working out as planned

This Master Q&A thread is up to 162 pages: so we are going to create a single new Q&A thread and close the two existing threads: sorry for another change but it was worth a try :o

Link to new combined Master Insiders Thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10607144&&#post10607144)