I think things got a bit mixed up. Most HD-DVDs are 1080p24. The reason for the confusion may be because the 1080p24 encode has metadata attached so the player will know how to handle the transition to 1080i. So your thoughts are 100% correct. A player that outputs native 1080p24 should ignore the metadata and output the stream. A real world example is to follow. I did a 1080p24 encode, using Microsoft's encoder, for HD-DVD. I then was able to remove the extra metadata for HD-DVD and have a 1080p24 encode for Blu-ray which I imported into Scenarist BD. It involved zero encoding to go from what the R&B rep is thinking is 1080i to 1080p24 for Blu-ray. That wouldn't be possible if the HD-DVD was truly 1080i. I'm sure Amir and Ben will also affirm what I am saying, which I'm sure will mean more to the R&B rep than coming from me.

Thanks, Jeff. Other than resolution, how does this differ from the way that film-based content is stored on DVD? Why don't we refer to DVDs as "480p"?

(from my phone)

The video data in all codecs in both HD formats are 8-bit 4:2:0.

Any support in a player >8-bit would be a form of upsampling. I'd think any TV capable of handling that input would probably have a display processor as good as that in a high-end player anyway.

For the next decade, home theater is all about:

8-bit 1920x1080 and PCM over HDMI.

Now keep this in mind: there are actually two universal players here. One stand-alone and the other PC-based. They are shipping a drive with PC software which of course, fully supports HDi. So they have added two HD DVD products to their line up, not just one. And one is fully compliant.

Amir this sounds like it is already being accepted that this one player will come out not being fully HD DVD compliant.

Is this going to be fought against or not?

I would expect that the DVD Forum and the HD DVD promotion group would already be taking what action they can to ensure that this player comes out fully compliant to meet or exceed HD DVD min standards.

Could you at least say whether or not this is an issue that people are discussing on what to do or is it just being accepted as is?

Thank you Amir and congrats again on your award

Thanks, Jeff. Other than resolution, how does this differ from the way that film-based content is stored on DVD? Why don't we refer to DVDs as "480p"?
DVD content is pre-filtered as you noted. As such, it lacks the full resolution of 480p. HD DVD is not. It is encoded at 1920x1080, with 24 progressive frames. As such, it fully meets the defenition of a progressive signal.

They are not all on the same side. That is, we are not trying to read all 5 layers on one side of the disc. Two (SD layer) are on the other side. And three on the other. We have 4 today with combo discs.

Up until now, TL was a layer on the "other" side, wasn't it?

Are they coming up with a true third layer here, one that is closer to the surface rather than deeper? That would be a non-DVD replication process.

Gary

Will disc production constraints play a role in format war in near term future?
For HD DVD there is zero constraint. HD DVD lines are same as DVD lines and are able to crank out titles at the same massive rate. There are many, many replicators around the world who are already producing HD DVDs. Indeed, any modern DVD line that you buy is liable to be able to make both DVDs and HD DVDs.

BD of course, is no where close to above. Its lines can only make BD. And while some independent replicators have produced BD-25 discs, their yields and cycle time (how long it takes to make a disc) sharply lags HD DVD (even Sony claims cycle time of 4+ seconds compared to 2.5 for DVD/HD DVD). BD-50 is much more problematic with Sony/MEI the only two producing them although others are trying to get online. But even if they do produce them, the yields and cycle time are in a different class than what is needed for true mass production.

Having said all of this, the market for BD products is really small relative to DVD. So BD has not yet faced this issue head on. However, if they want to meet their grand forecast, they might face issues here with BD-50.

300 new titles this year for each format is likely to max out the available capacity.
Not for HD DVD. We could produce 30,000 titles and it would be no big deal. Note from above that if more capacity is needed, new lines can be purchases which can produce both HD DVD and DVDs (you can switch between them in as little as 5 minutes). So the investment is very protected.

BD however, requires dedicated investment in new lines so it is much riskier for replicator to spend the money. As such, if demand picks up, they may have issues scaling.

Now, before Talk or whoever jumps on these comments, I like them to produce exact figures for their yields and cycle time, as verified by independent replicators – not their own claims.

How are both camps to cope if the formats gain mass market traction this year?
Per above, we are ready and fully capable, worldwide, to meet increased demand. There is no issue here of asking one or two companies to make discs for you, and certainly you don’t have to deal with your competitors to do so as is the case with BD.

Up until now, TL was a layer on the "other" side, wasn't it?

Are they coming up with a true third layer here, one that is closer to the surface rather than deeper? That would be a non-DVD replication process.

Gary
The third layer is on the surface of one half. So no, nothing is on the actual surface of the disc. We are still talking about two .6mm halves being fused together, yielding faster cycle time than molding a thick substrate as BD does. And we still enjoy the same natural protection a deeper recording system provides.

But you are right that is not precisely the same process as current DVD. It adds some level of complexity. But these discs will still be cheaper and easier to produce than BD-50

there are no longer any known warner insiders posting on avs.
Sadly this is the case.

btw, insiders in the loop on this, how are the efforts to get warner to allow cjplay to post here agagain coming along...any progress?
Yes, I have communicated with both cjplay and both levels of management above him. I have explained the level of interest people have here in having him participate again and they all really appreciate this. They have said that they have forwarded my communication to their upper management.

I have offered to go all the way up to the head of Warner Home Video if necessary to get him back. But did not want to do so without their permission. They have said to wait for now. With the holidays over, I am pinging them to see what the status is.

BTW, I don't want to start another war here so please, let this comment remain but when I asked if anyone else was helping with this process, I was told no. So paidgeek, if you are supportive of getting cjplay back, a comment from Sony indicating that you have this opinion, will I am sure be greatly appreciated.

I'm still confused. How would five layers work if two are on one 0.6mm half, one is on the other? Where do the other two go?

Gary

BD-50 is much more problematic with Sony/MEI the only two producing them although others are trying to get online. But even if they do produce them, the yields and cycle time are in a different class than what is needed for true mass production.

What about these Warner Total HD disc's using BD50's?

Its doubtful that Sony will replicate these discs with an HD DVD side on them so will they rely on MEI creating these disc's or will they force everything to 25g disc's or start creating BD50's on there own?

Amir,

Is there anything built into Vista specifically for decoding (or aiding/accelerating) the high-quality audio on HD DVD discs?

XP requires either a software decoder (which usually downmixes to 2.1) or a hardware solution (sound card or integrated sound w/ Dolby decode) for actual Dolby Digital surround output.

Amir,

Thank you for posting here (as well as all insiders, but this question is for Amir).

Matt Stevens posted a few pages back about the Studio Canal release of Basic Instinct, specifically about the audio being higher pitched than any other release (people are incorrectly quoting PAL speedup as a cause, but we all know that it's 1080p24 and PAL doesn't come into it).

I am wondering if this is an issue with the master, the authoring, or the player maybe reencoding the core DTS out of DTS-MA on these discs (since DTS-MA isn't really supported yet on the HD-A1/XA1). Others are stating problems with other Studio Canal releases, but this title is the only one I'm having problems with (out of two owned (Total Recall being the other)).

I realize this may take some time for a response, but please let us know that it's being looked into.

Again, thanks!
Ed

Up until now, TL was a layer on the "other" side, wasn't it?

Are they coming up with a true third layer here, one that is closer to the surface rather than deeper? That would be a non-DVD replication process.
The third layer is on the surface of one half. So no, nothing is on the actual surface of the disc. We are still talking about two .6mm halves being fused together, yielding faster cycle time than molding a thick substrate as BD does. And we still enjoy the same natural protection a deeper recording system provides.

But you are right that is not precisely the same process as current DVD. It adds some level of complexity. But these discs will still be cheaper and easier to produce than BD-50
I think there is some confusion about where the layers are in DVD and HD-DVD. In DVD and HD-DVD dual layer discs, a layer is molded one the surface of each 600 micron thick part. These parts are then bonded back to back with the molded pits in the center of the disc using an optically transparent 'glue'. When done so, the two pit layers are only microns apart in the center of the disc (55 +- 15 for DVD and 20 +- 5 for HD-DVD). Both layers are read from the same side of the disc.

So the HD-DVD stack order from laser entry surface is:

~600 micron polycarbonate
Layer 0 pits with partially reflective coating.
20 micron Spacer layer (optical grade 'glue')
Layer 1 pits with fully reflective coating.
~600 micro polycarbonate

For DVD-18 and HD-DVD > 2 layer combination discs, you mold a second layer on top of the first layer on each part using a special process (BD50 requires this for its second layer).

So a HD-DVD- 30/DVD-9 combo or (DVD-18) stack would look something like:

~580 micron polycarbonate
Layer 0 pits with partially reflective coating.
20 micron Spacer layer (2P or other material)
Layer 1 pits with fully reflective coating.
glue
Layer 1 pits with fully reflective coating.
20 micron Spacer layer (2P or other material)
Layer 0 pits with partially reflective coating.
~580 micro polycarbonate

A HD-DVD-51 stack would probably look like:

~580 micron polycarbonate
Layer 0 pits with partially reflective coating.
20 micron Spacer layer (2P or other material)
Layer 1 pits with partially reflective coating.
20 micron Spacer layer (optical grade 'glue')
Layer 2 pits with fully reflective coating.
~600 micro polycarbonate

I'm still confused. How would five layers work if two are on one 0.6mm half, one is on the other? Where do the other two go?

Gary
Shore explained it nicely :). The key being that when we use the term layer, we mean all the layers that can be read from one side. If some are on the other side, we don't combine the layers (as we don't have to punch through the other layers to read them) and instead, call them double sided discs.

What about these Warner Total HD disc's using BD50's?
Unfortunately, they are even more complex than regular BD discs so chances of THD discs coming out with BD-50 on one side is very low in my opinion. The cost is also much higher although Warner argues that making to seperate packages is expensive which I agree with.

Its doubtful that Sony will replicate these discs with an HD DVD side on them so will they rely on MEI creating these disc's or will they force everything to 25g disc's or start creating BD50's on there own?
Neither Sony or MEI will come near such a disc as they would have to make HD DVDs and neither wants that on their resume :). So an independent replicators needs to first master BD process and then combine it with HD DVD. And as you indicate and my note above, chances of this happening with BD-50 is very low at this point.

Amir,

Is there anything built into Vista specifically for decoding (or aiding/accelerating) the high-quality audio on HD DVD discs?
Vista has a new secure pipeline for decoding of content such as HD DVD (we designed it with AACS in mind).

XP requires either a software decoder (which usually downmixes to 2.1) or a hardware solution (sound card or integrated sound w/ Dolby decode) for actual Dolby Digital surround output.
All of that applies to Vista just the same as people can just run their XP players on Vista.

We do however, offer our OEM (PC) partners optimized and high quality DD decoder so if they use that, they can get better quality product.

Amir,

Thank you for posting here (as well as all insiders, but this question is for Amir).

Matt Stevens posted a few pages back about the Studio Canal release of Basic Instinct, specifically about the audio being higher pitched than any other release (people are incorrectly quoting PAL speedup as a cause, but we all know that it's 1080p24 and PAL doesn't come into it).
Sorry I missed that point. To be absolutely clear, the Toshiba player only handles 24p, not 25p. So no one can speed up the video PAL-style, even if they wanted to (25p support comes later this year but even so, we think movies will continue to be encoded for 24p).

I am wondering if this is an issue with the master, the authoring, or the player maybe reencoding the core DTS out of DTS-MA on these discs (since DTS-MA isn't really supported yet on the HD-A1/XA1). Others are stating problems with other Studio Canal releases, but this title is the only one I'm having problems with (out of two owned (Total Recall being the other)).

I realize this may take some time for a response, but please let us know that it's being looked into.

Again, thanks!
Ed
This is the first I have heard about this problem. If you can give me a link to the postings I will get it in front of the right people to investigate.

A HD-DVD-51 stack would probably look like:

~580 micron polycarbonate
Layer 0 pits with partially reflective coating.
20 micron Spacer layer (2P or other material)
Layer 1 pits with partially reflective coating.
20 micron Spacer layer (optical grade 'glue')
Layer 2 pits with fully reflective coating.
~600 micro polycarbonate

Thanks! So if HD DVD-TL is doable, then it could also be TL 30/4.5 or 15/9 hybrid? Therefore hybrid doesn't have to be flippers.

How about the Total-HD? Since the BD layer is so close to the surface, is TL-HD DVD/DL-BD possible?

I also asked this question several times. Can anyone answer it?
For example, Sony just put out a 70" XBR TV with 10 bit x.v.Color. Does that TV need to interpolate the extra color bits, or does HD DVD / BluRay already have 10 bit color?

Or do we need to wait for more improvements in HD DVD / BluRay format to take advantage of HDMI 1.3 and 10 bit color?

What about on the XBOX HD DVD with its 1080p VGA out? Can that output 10 bit color if the format supports it?
O
As I think Ben commented, what is on disc is 8-bit and can not benefit from any new color space or higher resolution. However, to the extent the player does any video process and that includes compositing interactivity graphics, that output could be done using deeper color depth to avoid contouring and such. So the benefits are there, but rather small. I certainly would not base a purchasing decision on them with regards to what is on HD DVD/BD.

I realize this question was not directed at me, but I can answer it. The Sony press release (which you can read here (http://news.sel.sony.com/en/press_room/consumer/home_audio_video/blu-ray_disc/release/26539.html)) which was released before the player was available to purchase, clearly states that the player would not play BD-J content until an update was made available in 2007. No need to test the disc on the Pio or Sony, everyone already knew that the disc wouldn't work on those machines yet before they were even sold.
Well, Talk claims that is not the problem but a firmware bug in the players. If it is a firmware bug, then it is clear that the content was not tested on them.

Of course, you could be right that the player is not BD-J compliant and the bug is much more of an ugprade than a bug. But then we have to decide if we believe what Talk is telling us about the nature of the problem. Don't we? :)

Has anyone at CES announced or demo'd an HD DVD authoring software suite/package for consumer PC?

No comment on the Merridian debacle? I'd have thought dealing with that issue would have been the first port of call.

Anyone in the HD-DVD camp care to comment on this (http://avzombie.com/blog/2007/01/10/meridian-refutes-hd-dvd-hardware-announcement/)?
Well, it seems that he is uninformed about his company's decisions. As you can imagine, press releases do not go out without completely sign off from both sides and extensive reviews at executive levels. I personally worked with Bob Meridan on this and I can share with you that he and rest of the company is totally excited about being the first high-end company to support HD DVD and being the pioneer in digital A/V products as they have been. And to my knowledge, have no plans to support BD format.

I have a message into Bob to get the above corrected.

I have to say I was suprised by the announcement as both Meridian and Arcam (another UK audiophile brand) have consistently stated in the UK hifi press that they don't see either HD format as viable for them yet, and have generally condemned the format war...
Well, they have seen the excellent progress that HD DVD has made. And more importantly, the excellent quality we bring to the table. A year ago they were indeed going to stand on the side line. But not now.

Unfortunately, they are even more complex than regular BD discs so chances of THD discs coming out with BD-50 on one side is very low in my opinion. The cost is also much higher although Warner argues that making to seperate packages is expensive which I agree with.
can you answer this hypothetical...

summer 2008.... Warner wants to print 1million "new title" movie for HD-DVD and Bluray... what would be more costly out of pocket

making 500k HD-DVDs and 500k Bluray discs (and subsequent packing/shipping/distribution) vs 1m Total-HD?

It seems like Total-HD would be desired from the manufacturing, distribution, retailer right down to customer, nevermind allows a flexible inventory (you don't need to worry about PS3 buyer habits, or what % to press of each type).

Guys, I have to run to the show.... It is my first chance to walk the floor!!! So please let me enjoy that a bit and I will try to chime in later....

Thanks!

Question to any insider that can address it:

Was Universal under a time-exclusive contract for HD DVD only content?

Unfortunately, they are even more complex than regular BD discs so chances of THD discs coming out with BD-50 on one side is very low in my opinion. The cost is also much higher although Warner argues that making to seperate packages is expensive which I agree with.

Neither Sony or MEI will come near such a disc as they would have to make HD DVDs and neither wants that on their resume :). So an independent replicators needs to first master BD process and then combine it with HD DVD. And as you indicate and my note above, chances of this happening with BD-50 is very low at this point.

Thanks Amir and I agree unless Warner starts making there own BD50's, we can expect only 25g layers for the BR side on these total HD discs.

I know this will probably only be your opinion/guess but do you think Warner would then also find it easier to only use 15g layers for HD DVD rather then using 30g disc's?

As a dual format owner I have seen good movies on both 25g BR and 15g HD but thats not to say I want either format limited to these disc sizes.

Warner said they expected about half of there future releases to be on these discs and I see that as a worry that content and quality will be limited by these smaller sizes. Additional they think us consumers are going to pay more for this and there giving us less.

Well, it seems that he is uninformed about his company's decisions. As you can imagine, press releases do not go out without completely sign off from both sides and extensive reviews at executive levels. I personally worked with Bob Meridan on this and I can share with you that he and rest of the company is totally excited about being the first high-end company to support HD DVD and being the pioneer in digital A/V products as they have been. And to my knowledge, have no plans to support BD format.

I have a message into Bob to get the above corrected.


Well, they have seen the excellent progress that HD DVD has made. And more importantly, the excellent quality we bring to the table. A year ago they were indeed going to stand on the side line. But not now.

I'm sorry, I'm confused. Who is Bob Meridian? The owner/founder of Meridian is Boothroyd (Bob) Stuart.
J

Maybe he meant Bob Stuart at Meridian who co-founded the company with Allen Boothroyd.

http://www.stereophile.com/interviews/906bob/

Well, it seems that he is uninformed about his company's decisions. As you can imagine, press releases do not go out without completely sign off from both sides and extensive reviews at executive levels. I personally worked with Bob Meridan on this and I can share with you that he and rest of the company is totally excited about being the first high-end company to support HD DVD and being the pioneer in digital A/V products as they have been. And to my knowledge, have no plans to support BD format.

I have a message into Bob to get the above corrected.


Well, they have seen the excellent progress that HD DVD has made. And more importantly, the excellent quality we bring to the table. A year ago they were indeed going to stand on the side line. But not now.

Amir,


Can you suggest to your contacts at Meridian that they issue a formal press release? It would be helpful to have a confirmation about their plans and also whatever details they can provide.

I just checked their web site and I couldn't find anything.


Thanks.

Sorry I missed that point. To be absolutely clear, the Toshiba player only handles 24p, not 25p. So no one can speed up the video PAL-style, even if they wanted to (25p support comes later this year but even so, we think movies will continue to be encoded for 24p).


This is the first I have heard about this problem. If you can give me a link to the postings I will get it in front of the right people to investigate.

Amir-

Thanks for looking into this. The threads are here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=783777

People seemed to have confirmed it on Basic Instinct, Total Recall, Rambo I and II. Hopefully you can check on this issue and have it trouble shooted so it doesn't happen on future releases.

Cheers,
Chris

Um, it seems weird that a company could be "Really excited" about a product and have their press admin not know about it. Since this is the only comment actually from Meridian, can any insider get an actual statement from Meridian?

In truth, the two founders are Allen Boothroyd and Bob Stuart. Boothroyd did the industrial design and Stuart did the electronics.

Also, doesn't Blu-ray spin slower to get the same bitrate off disc due to the higher density?

What on earth is the point of HD in cars? Unless you have a stretch hummer with a 42inch screen, what possible benefit could HD bring to ICE?? I'm totally missing the point on that one.
It is one of convenience. Unless you are telling me that you will buy some discs in both BD and SD, you are going to find situations where you want to watch the movie in a car (think Kid's programming). Resolution is not as much of a driver as much as portability of the content.

In truth, the two founders are Allen Boothroyd and Bob Stuart. Boothroyd did the industrial design and Stuart did the electronics.
Thank you for clearing that up.
J

Question for HD-DVD/Blu-Ray Insiders,

I hope you may have an answer for this (It might have been asked already). Now that it's been a while with both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD on the PC market, and now that the HP HD-DVD drive has been released and we can see there is an official supported solution for HD-DVD on PC, does anyone know how the various HD-DVD playback solutions (Cyberlink, Intervideo, Windows Vista etc) offer Dolby TrueHD sound/DTS-HD master for PC output? Standard sound cards such as the Audigy 2 and Xi-Fi have 3 analog stereo plug connectors that feed 5.1 and sometimes 7.1, 8.1 sets of speakers or amplifiers. They also have optical and coaxial digital outputs as well. Is there a solution for getting proper full Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD master for PC? Can the Creative Xi-Fi handle this or do they have a solution in the works? Or are we going to have to settle for Dolby Digital+ remixed for DTS output or some other solution. Are there going to be any PC audio solutions to provide real Dolby TrueHD output? Like perhaps from Niveus? Is it possible under Windows XP or only Windows Vista?

Amir,
Can you suggest to your contacts at Meridian that they issue a formal press release? It would be helpful to have a confirmation about their plans and also whatever details they can provide.
Yes, they are right on it. Bob is trying to get a hold of his web team to post the press release on their site. He thinks it may take a day or so though. They are also working to take down the incorrect info on the blog.

I'm sorry, I'm confused. Who is Bob Meridian? The owner/founder of Meridian is Boothroyd (Bob) Stuart.
J
Sorry, too little sleep. :) Meant Bob Stuart....

Well, it seems that he is uninformed about his company's decisions. As you can imagine, press releases do not go out without completely sign off from both sides and extensive reviews at executive levels. I personally worked with Bob Meridan on this and I can share with you that he and rest of the company is totally excited about being the first high-end company to support HD DVD and being the pioneer in digital A/V products as they have been. And to my knowledge, have no plans to support BD format.
What is Bob Meridan's position with the company?

Sorry, too little sleep. :) Meant Bob Stuart....
Gotcha.

To be clear, HD DVD studios do attempt to test on as many players as they can get their hands on. It is just that in case of products which we have helped create, we also do testing. This double safety net should help reduce compatibility issues.



I really wish somebody would have tested the xbox HD-DVD addon before it got released. That might have saved us, the customers, the HUGE dissapointment about the broken sound (extrem dynamic compression) due to the bug in the DD+ decoder.

What brings me to the question: is there a date for a bugfix? Will it be fixed at all, or will just be DTS encoding added to the still broken DD+ decoding?

What is Bob Meridan's position with the company?

Owner

Question for HD-DVD/Blu-Ray Insiders,

I hope you may have an answer for this (It might have been asked already). Now that it's been a while with both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD on the PC market, and now that the HP HD-DVD drive has been released and we can see there is an official supported solution for HD-DVD on PC, does anyone know how the various HD-DVD playback solutions (Cyberlink, Intervideo, Windows Vista etc) offer Dolby TrueHD sound/DTS-HD master for PC output? Standard sound cards such as the Audigy 2 and Xi-Fi have 3 analog stereo plug connectors that feed 5.1 and sometimes 7.1, 8.1 sets of speakers or amplifiers. They also have optical and coaxial digital outputs as well. Is there a solution for getting proper full Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD master for PC? Can the Creative Xi-Fi handle this or do they have a solution in the works? Or are we going to have to settle for Dolby Digital+ remixed for DTS output or some other solution.
As audio is mixed with secondary and UI audio, it's internally PCM. You want to come out of the soundcard as uncompressed, irrespective of how it's encoded.

Again, in the modern era, players output uncompressed audio, just like they've been doing uncompressed video all along.

It is one of convenience. Unless you are telling me that you will buy some discs in both BD and SD, you are going to find situations where you want to watch the movie in a car (think Kid's programming). Resolution is not as much of a driver as much as portability of the content.
Shouldn't this be what managed copy is all about? You pay the premium for the original on HD, and through managed copy can watch the content you've paid for on portable devices which don't need such a high resolution copy, for which ICE would be a candidate in that arena... Not sure I'd want to trust HD discs in a car environment with children... ;)

This question is to Amir and Talk:

From your discussions with the studio heads, how much of an effect did the alleged HD-DVD hack have to do with no new studio support announcements for HD-DVD? There were several posters here over the past few months claiming that Lionsgate has all but gone neutral and was just waiting for CES to formally announce support and start punching out titles.. Yet, what we get from LG is a strong affirmation that they are loyal to BD. I really hope you could answer this question, as I am sure this issue must have come up in the discussions in one form or the other.

TIA.

Sorry I missed that point. To be absolutely clear, the Toshiba player only handles 24p, not 25p. So no one can speed up the video PAL-style, even if they wanted to (25p support comes later this year but even so, we think movies will continue to be encoded for 24p).


This is the first I have heard about this problem. If you can give me a link to the postings I will get it in front of the right people to investigate.

Here are the links:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9186738#post9186738
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=783777

Matt has tested it, and I have tested it against earlier sources. sound is definitely off.

Thanks for looking into it!

Ed

amir - do you think in the next 6-12 months certain studios might release HD content for 360 live market even if they don't support HD-DVD due to target demographic (ie. disney releasing hd cars for 360 would be an easy money grab)?

i know you can't release info for studios, but do you think HD-DVD/BRD politics (ignoring sony studio) will spill over to 360 market?

thanks!

Shouldn't this be what managed copy is all about? You pay the premium for the original on HD, and through managed copy can watch the content you've paid for on portable devices which don't need such a high resolution copy, for which ICE would be a candidate in that arena...
Nice come back :). Yes, that is what we wish to happen. But we want to make sure all avenues are open for doing this and not limit the portability which exists with DVDs today for ICE.

Not sure I'd want to trust HD discs in a car environment with children... ;)
Hence the reason you might want to adopt HD DVD instead of BD. :D (just a joke, please no big argument on this :))

This question is to Amir and Talk:

From your discussions with the studio heads, how much of an effect did the alleged HD-DVD hack have to do with no new studio support announcements for HD-DVD? There were several posters here over the past few months claiming that Lionsgate has all but gone neutral and was just waiting for CES to formally announce support and start punching out titles.. Yet, what we get from LG is a strong affirmation that they are loyal to BD. I really hope you could answer this question, as I am sure this issue must have come up in the discussions in one form or the other.

TIA.
Fortunately, there was no effect. As you know the hack never really materialized. But if it had, the effect would not have been wrt to format war but potential chilling effect on releases for both. Of course, some studios are more open minded than others on this so it would not have been a wholesale effect.

I also like to compliment Andy Parsons of BDA for properly expressing this issue as one in the same for both formats and not try to make it a format issue, as many fans here tried to make it so :).

As for studio's position with respect to format war, we guard such information with utmost respect so I can not share any details. Suffice it to say, HD DVD gets stronger everyday and others like LG will one day consider other options....

Here are the links:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9186738#post9186738
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=783777

Matt has tested it, and I have tested it against earlier sources. sound is definitely off.

Thanks for looking into it!

Ed
Thanks Ed. Our team is on it already in France...

amir - do you think in the next 6-12 months certain studios might release HD content for 360 live market even if they don't support HD-DVD due to target demographic (ie. disney releasing hd cars for 360 would be an easy money grab)?
Yes, very much so. As you know, unlike optical formats, there is no war going on in the digital download (there is competition from Apple and such but not in the classical sense of HD DVD/BD). So you will definitely see content from blu-ray studios on 360 marketplace.

i know you can't release info for studios, but do you think HD-DVD/BRD politics (ignoring sony studio) will spill over to 360 market?

thanks!
No, there is no spill over effect. As big companies, we sometimes take opposite positions but we still look for areas of joint benefit to both companies where possible. Good examples are Sony and Dell in PC business...

This HD content in the marketplace will be at 720p, I presume? I can't imagine downloading a 1080p file for a 2 hour movie.

Yes, very much so. As you know, unlike optical formats, there is no war going on in the digital download (there is competition from Apple and such but not in the classical sense of HD DVD/BD). So you will definitely see content from blu-ray studios on 360 marketplace.


No, there is no spill over effect. As big companies, we sometimes take opposite positions but we still look for areas of joint benefit to both companies where possible. Good examples are Sony and Dell in PC business...
Thanks. This is great news... especially for those of us wanting to be neutral without investing heavily into Bluray (or HDDVD) hardware in 2007 :)

QUESTION:

can and have you tried to work with studios to expand the 24 hour viewing to 48-hours?

i contacted "moviebeam" (HD ota rental) and they said their 24 hour restriction was a studio demand (odd since disney owns part of it).

problem is if you want to watch a movie over 2 nights (60 min one night, 70 min the next) that is two rentals unless you start LATE first night and EARLY the next night. sounds nit-picky but it's not.

Amir-

First, thanks so much for all of the answers you've provided here - very useful.

I have a few studio related questions. I know you probably can't answer any of these, but I'm curious...

1) How do studio's decide what to bring out and what not to bring out? I can't imagine it's totally random or anything like that. There should be like a studio request line for this if it is totally random. :)

2) New Line committed to titles last year and again this year for HD-DVD. However, there haven't been any dates set at all. Will we actually see releases from New line in 2007? If so, do you think first half or second half? I'll be honest, I'm jonesing for Rush Hour I/II.

3) Dreamworks. There hasn't been a peep from these guys and they have amazing titles - Shrek, Madagascar, The Peacemaker, Gladiator, etc. Can you make any comment on what if anything they are planning on doing?

Thanks again,
Chris

QUESTION:

can and have you tried to work with studios to expand the 24 hour viewing to 48-hours?

i contacted "moviebeam" (HD ota rental) and they said their 24 hour restriction was a studio demand (odd since disney owns part of it).

problem is if you want to watch a movie over 2 nights (60 min one night, 70 min the next) that is two rentals unless you start LATE first night and EARLY the next night. sounds nit-picky but it's not.I'll expand on this. If not 48 hours, can they at least make it 26 or 28 hours? I haven't used this service, but for the same reason stated. A person who leaves work at 5 and starts the movie the same time each night will span more than 24 hours. And it gets worse if they get a phone call or something the 2nd night that makes them pause it. Is there at least some kind of extra buffer over 24?

--Darin

Hence the reason you might want to adopt HD DVD instead of BD. :D (just a joke, please no big argument on this :))Already have HD-DVD and BD... Even got the t-shirt for HD-DVD thanks to a couple of strange Americans pretending foggy Guildford is London... :D

Any chance of sharing some information as to whether any proposed format enhancements have already been tested on existing systems? I think such information is vital to avoid people wondering if existing players are likely to become obselete, a factor that hasn't really been a consideration thus far for HD-DVD, but raises it's ugly head with TL51.

Thanks, Ian.

I really wish somebody would have tested the xbox HD-DVD addon before it got released. That might have saved us, the customers, the HUGE dissapointment about the broken sound (extrem dynamic compression) due to the bug in the DD+ decoder.

What brings me to the question: is there a date for a bugfix? Will it be fixed at all, or will just be DTS encoding added to the still broken DD+ decoding?

I too noticed the dull/compressed sound with DD+ soundtracks from my 360 add-on. :(

Amir, has this been acknowledged by Microsoft as a bug? :confused:

Also, Thanks to all of the 'insiders" for the time and effort on keeping us updated and answering questions. This thread has become a daily read for me. :D

Cheers,

Don

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=783777

Many are now openly saying yes, there is a problem. Some want to deny deny deny, but many of us can clearly hear the higher pitch to the sound and some of us have gone so far as to compare them to NTSC releases and this has proven we are right. There is something very very wrong with some of the Studio Canal releases. The soundtracks are pitched very high and do not sound normal. They sound like a PAL sped up soundtrack, even though they are 24p.

We cannot explain it. Amir, I hope that you can. No matter what, SOMETHING went wrong with these titles and future releases cannot suffer the same fate because otherwise they would be worthless. :(

I'll expand on this. If not 48 hours, can they at least make it 26 or 28 hours? I haven't used this service, but for the same reason stated. A person who leaves work at 5 and starts the movie the same time each night will span more than 24 hours. And it gets worse if they get a phone call or something the 2nd night that makes them pause it. Is there at least some kind of extra buffer over 24?

--Darin

i'll add my support for this request for additional time, although it is the same restriction i have on my cable company using their VOD/HDOD, etc.

Sadly this is the case.


Yes, I have communicated with both cjplay and both levels of management above him. I have explained the level of interest people have here in having him participate again and they all really appreciate this. They have said that they have forwarded my communication to their upper management.

I have offered to go all the way up to the head of Warner Home Video if necessary to get him back. But did not want to do so without their permission. They have said to wait for now. With the holidays over, I am pinging them to see what the status is.

BTW, I don't want to start another war here so please, let this comment remain but when I asked if anyone else was helping with this process, I was told no. So paidgeek, if you are supportive of getting cjplay back, a comment from Sony indicating that you have this opinion, will I am sure be greatly appreciated.

This was already done last week. I will follow-up when I get back from CES.

Well, Talk claims that is not the problem but a firmware bug in the players. If it is a firmware bug, then it is clear that the content was not tested on them.

Of course, you could be right that the player is not BD-J compliant and the bug is much more of an ugprade than a bug. But then we have to decide if we believe what Talk is telling us about the nature of the problem. Don't we?
I confirmed today, with my own work, that the Sony player is quite BD-J compatible. I read somewhere around the AVS that the problem was really an issue with the file structure on the disc. Any other insiders wish to comment on it's truthfulness?

Amir,

I can confirm there is a "pitch" problem with the Studio Canal Rambo movies.

I noticed it the minute Rambo spoke in First Blood.

You can really hear it when Trautman talks because Crenna has a very disctinct voice that does not sound quiet right with the Studio Canal versions.

Any update on what is going to happen with the LG universal player? Are they going to sell it as is without a HD DVD logo or are they going to try to add HDi to it?

Any update on what is going to happen with the LG universal player? Are they going to sell it as is without a HD DVD logo or are they going to try to add HDi to it?
Are you planning on buying one Richard?

Regardless, my answer could not have been more clear as are DVD forum rules. If you don't pass HD DVD tests, you don't get the logo. And the tests include HDi. So short of getting an LG insider telling you otherwise, this product is not going to have a logo in my opinion.

LG has been in the press as saying they will build follow on products that are fully compliant. And of course, their PC solution already is. So yes, the situation will change in the future.

I confirmed today, with my own work, that the Sony player is quite BD-J compatible. I read somewhere around the AVS that the problem was really an issue with the file structure on the disc. Any other insiders wish to comment on it's truthfulness?

A firmware update will be released in a few days to solve this. The disc is spec compliant as far we know and the player has a bug.

@paidgeek:

now that sony has announced some of its upcoming 2007 releases, are there ay exciting details you can share with us regarding audio and/or extras that will be included?

tia

To be honest, extras don't excite me too much... but there will be more. Look for our first Java title in March, nothing special, just an experiment.

We will likely use Dolby Lossless in Europe this year. The PS3 can support it and other players will be coming this year with HDMI 1.3 and/or internal decoders.

To be honest, extras don't excite me too much... but there will be more. Look for our first Java title in March, nothing special, just an experiment.

We will likely use Dolby Lossless in Europe this year. The PS3 can support it and other players will be coming this year with HDMI 1.3 and/or internal decoders.Thanks. Any news on DTS-HD Master Audio support in players (including an upgrade for the PS3)?

--Darin

Paidgeek, I´m european, and I´m very interested in knowing if the reason to use dolby lossless in Europe instead of PCM is to allow multiple lossless languages. I know you guys in the USA don´t care at all for dubs, but I´ll tell you that in Spain, for example, everything is dubbed and not having BOTH tracks lossless is going to be a cause for criticism (as there is already for the lack of interactive features on the KING KONG HD DVD because they fit 5 languages)

paidgeek, I am also in Europe (Germany) and am disappointed that Sony BD has here only the native language i.e. German in PCM, not the original English soundtrack which I prefer. So I am all for using lossless on BOTH. If you have really no space, please use PCM only for the original English since dubs mostly have worse sound quality anyway.

Amir,

I know it is completely out of your hands, but is there any indication that there will be a wave of title announcements for the HD-DVD side anytime soon?

We don't need all 300 titles, just a couple months of solid release dates would do fine.

Thanks.

If you don't pass HD DVD tests, you don't get the logo. And the tests include HDi. So short of getting an LG insider telling you otherwise, this product is not going to have a logo in my opinion.

LG has been in the press as saying they will build follow on products that are fully compliant. And of course, their PC solution already is. So yes, the situation will change in the future.

Hello Amir:

I would like to ask if there are further measures that can be pushed besides just preventing use of the logo? I don’t see it mattering much to the general public if the player says it can read HD DVD but is missing the proper logo. I would think some type of licensing or other means would also be needed that can be declined until they come into full compliance or would anyone feel to insecure about the possibility of them taking the combo player off the table?

Regarding the recent Studio Canal audio problem and disappointments with audio codec choices in general as well as the less than stellar early MPEG2 Blu-Ray releases and usage of old inferior digital masters instead of new restored transfers:
Is any sort of quality control or recommendation done by the HD-DVD and Blu-Ray alliances?

I was really hoping with HD-DVD and Blu-Ray we would only see “Criterion Collection” class releases.
Isn’t anyone policing this, not even in this early stage?

I just read on the bits that Warner's Total HD discs will contain "the same features" on both the HD DVD and BD sides. On the one hand, I understand this logic given that they want to minimize consumer frustration with not being able to access an advertised feature based on their particular format of player. However, it also seems a serious waste in that every 50GB BD side will basically be treated like 30GB. For titles like Amadeus, Color Purple, or LOTR where multiple lossless tracks (like a music-only track in lossless) or high-res lossless like 24/48 instead of 16/48 might have been included on the 50GB HD media, I'm worried that the studio will "dumb down" the content to keep it consistent with what can be placed on the 30GB HD DVD layer.

Can any insider share some thoughts on this? At the VERY LEAST, I'd like to suggest that any Dolby True HD or DTS-HD lossless track that is restricted to 16/48 resolution on the HD DVD side due to space/bandwidth-limitations be re-encoded at 20/48 or 24/48 on the BD side given the additional breathing room.

The other worry is extras being down-converted to SD resolution. LOTR has documentaries that were all filmed in native 1080 resolution. Whill they be down-resed to 480? That additional 20GB could be used for some fantastic HD bonus content!

Thanks. Any news on DTS-HD Master Audio support in players (including an upgrade for the PS3)?

--Darin

No news on this on the player side....

Paidgeek, I´m european, and I´m very interested in knowing if the reason to use dolby lossless in Europe instead of PCM is to allow multiple lossless languages. I know you guys in the USA don´t care at all for dubs, but I´ll tell you that in Spain, for example, everything is dubbed and not having BOTH tracks lossless is going to be a cause for criticism (as there is already for the lack of interactive features on the KING KONG HD DVD because they fit 5 languages)

It is our intention to use Dolby lossless in Europe for all the languages including the original. It has been argued on this forum many times that lossless encoded tracks, whether Dolby or DTS, should be identical in sound performance to LPCM. If we find that this is not the case in practice, we will reconsider providing LPCM instead. Even with the capacity advantage of Blu-ray, multiple dubbed audio tracks will take up a very significant amount of bandwidth and disc space. Please know that while we do not use the dubs in the US, we have been pushing hard for equal treatment of all languages on our European product so that no single country feels disadvantaged.

If I am not mistaken, KK was not released with LPCM or lossless on any version. This was probably due to space or bandwidth issues.

A firmware update will be released in a few days to solve this. The disc is spec compliant as far we know and the player has a bug.
How do we get the firmware? Will we be able to download and burn it or do we need to order it, or will it be sent automatically to registered owners?

To all insiders and studio reps:

16/48 lossless/LPCM is not good enough. We want 20/48 or 24/48 minimum when higher-than-16-bit LPCM masters exist.

downconverting a 24/96 master to 16/48 for "lossless" encoding isn't a "lossless" representation of that master. It may avoid the additional artifacts of psychoacoutic masking filters, but a 16/48 dither from a 24/96 master is not its equal, and is not adequate when bit-space and bandwith would have allowed the full-resolution original.

Thanks Paidgeek, and yes, King Kong only had DD+, what I meant was that using multiple audio tracks can be troublesome. The spanish Fox titles only use DTS-HD MA in English, and regular DTS on spanish, so maybe Sony will be the first to offer 2 lossless tracks or does anyone know another example?

If I am not mistaken, KK was not released with LPCM or lossless on any version. This was probably due to space or bandwidth issues.
No, it was not due to either factors. First, we don't waste space with LPCM no matter what. Second., Uni feels that with high rate DD+, they can provide a great sound to everyone. Yes, I know, some people will argue with that. But a lot of people also argue with the use of MPEG-2 and PCM on 25 gigabyte discs :). You certainly don't have the capacity there either compared to HD DVD-30 but usage continues.

At the end of the day, companies develop preferences around how they encode the disc an follow that.

So they could have fit a TrueHD track on King Kong?

Wouldn't the sound of perfect translate to being lossless, not "transparent" to lossless?
To all insiders and studio reps:

16/48 lossless/LPCM is not good enough. We want 20/48 or 24/48 minimum when higher-than-16-bit LPCM masters exist.

downconverting a 24/96 master to 16/48 for "lossless" encoding isn't a "lossless" representation of that master. It may avoid the additional artifacts of psychoacoutic masking filters, but a 16/48 dither from a 24/96 master is not its equal, and is not adequate when bit-space and bandwith would have allowed the full-resolution original.
Although I don't think you'll find many 24/96 masters as opposed to 24/48 masters, I could not agree with you more.

Dolby TrueHD, DTS-MA and LPCM should be released on all HD discs to give the full HD experience.

I just read on the bits that Warner's Total HD discs will contain "the same features" on both the HD DVD and BD sides. On the one hand, I understand this logic given that they want to minimize consumer frustration with not being able to access an advertised feature based on their particular format of player. However, it also seems a serious waste in that every 50GB BD side will basically be treated like 30GB.
You are putting the cart before the horse on this one :). I would jump with joy if I were a BD fan and these discs really had BD-50. Having the things you ask will be icing on the cake. As it is, that combo may not see the light of day. More likely, we will be talking about BD-25.


For titles like Amadeus, Color Purple, or LOTR where multiple lossless tracks (like a music-only track in lossless) or high-res lossless like 24/48 instead of 16/48 might have been included on the 50GB HD media, I'm worried that the studio will "dumb down" the content to keep it consistent with what can be placed on the 30GB HD DVD layer.
Well, I am worried in reverse :). That HD DVD side may get dumb down due to patchwork of interactivity support in BD. Also keep in mind that VC-1 syntax in BD is more restrictive than in HD DVD. So we have already had to live with that without complaining :).

Per above, if the BD side is 25, and their machines don't all support lossless compression, you are going to have differences no matter how much Warner wishes to keep things the same.

Fortunately, my sense is that Warner will attempt to treat both sides equally as best as they can within the technical contraints of replications and such. So no, I don't think the two sides will be physically identical.

Can any insider share some thoughts on this? At the VERY LEAST, I'd like to suggest that any Dolby True HD or DTS-HD lossless track that is restricted to 16/48 resolution on the HD DVD side due to space/bandwidth-limitations be re-encoded at 20/48 or 24/48 on the BD side given the additional breathing room.
Again, it is likely to be the case that there is less room on the BD side, not more. So I am sure Warner would like to hear what compromises you think is acceptable for them to support that.

The other worry is extras being down-converted to SD resolution. LOTR has documentaries that were all filmed in native 1080 resolution. Whill they be down-resed to 480? That additional 20GB could be used for some fantastic HD bonus content!
I don't have an answer on this of course. But history shows that even BD companies leave out extras to fit things on BD-25. And as you point out, lossless compression is also left out. So unless some magic happens and BD-50 combos become a walk in the park, you are going to see differences of this kind.

You are putting the cart before the horse on this one :). I would jump with joy if I were a BD fan and these discs really had BD-50. Having the things you ask will be icing on the cake. As it is, that combo may not see the light of day. More likely, we will be talking about BD-25.I don't have an answer on this of course. But history shows that even BD companies leave out extras to fit things on BD-25. And as you point out, lossless compression is also left out. So unless some magic happens and BD-50 combos become a walk in the park, you are going to see differences of this kind.
I have to strongly object here. BD50s have been used by all studios that support Blu-ray. All the exclusive studios have made press announcements at CES that state they will be taking advantage of the now readily available BD50 discs, from Sony to Fox to BVHE.

As for the THD demo, it was done using Superman Returns, which is an HD30 and BD50 release.

From the press conference:
http://www.engadget.com/2007/01/09/live-coverage-from-the-warner-press-conference/

What is the capacity for each side?
They have the full capacity of both HD DVD and Blu-ray and dual layer on both discs.
How do you get "likely, we will be talking about BD-25." from that statement?

From Warner's previous statements
http://www.thedigitalbits.com/mytwocentsa130.html
We also plan to make every effort to "catch-up" the 2006 titles currently only out on HD DVD with the Blu-ray versions in 2007. There are two reasons that the discrepancy exists. One has to do with the interactivity layer for BD with respect to picture-in-picture functionality. Some of our titles like Batman Begins and V for Vendetta have extensive interactive experiences and we don't want the Blu-ray consumer to have a "lesser" experience. We expect that this enhanced interactivity will be ready on the Blu-ray side soon. The other reason had to do with length of movies and the availability of 50 GB discs. That situation has already improved, as the releases of Unforgiven, Last Samurai and Goodfellas (1/16) show. We are also working on Enter the Dragon and a few others for early 2007 Blu-ray release as part of that "catching up" plan."

Hello Amir:

I would like to ask if there are further measures that can be pushed besides just preventing use of the logo?
If you mean DVD Forum, then no, not without changing the laws of many countries :). Yes, in principal one could withold specifications without certification. Dolby does that for example but they are not operating on open specification created by an org like DVD Forum. When a number or large companies get together to create a standard, they have to be very careful in what handcuffs they put on their member companies.

I don’t see it mattering much to the general public if the player says it can read HD DVD but is missing the proper logo.
I don't think many people in the general publich will be buying a $1,200 player. And the folks around here know the situation.

I would think some type of licensing or other means would also be needed that can be declined until they come into full compliance or would anyone feel to insecure about the possibility of them taking the combo player off the table?
You have to keep in mind that there is no licensing program today for either HD DVD or BD. Patent pools are still being formed. Those discussions are confidential but such an option may be available to them, I can't say.

Amir,

I know it is completely out of your hands, but is there any indication that there will be a wave of title announcements for the HD-DVD side anytime soon?

We don't need all 300 titles, just a couple months of solid release dates would do fine.

Thanks.
I an expressed this feedback to them. So hopefully they will do so.

It is our intention to use Dolby lossless in Europe for all the languages including the original. It has been argued on this forum many times that lossless encoded tracks, whether Dolby or DTS, should be identical in sound performance to LPCM. If we find that this is not the case in practice, we will reconsider providing LPCM instead. Even with the capacity advantage of Blu-ray, multiple dubbed audio tracks will take up a very significant amount of bandwidth and disc space. Please know that while we do not use the dubs in the US, we have been pushing hard for equal treatment of all languages on our European product so that no single country feels disadvantaged.


For their DVD releases here in Europe, the Studios manufacture a certain number of SKUs in order to cover the different spoken languages and hence the territories.

From my understanding, the number of SKUs which are required depend of a number of factors, but these are the main ones:
- available disk space after taking into account the main program + English track and supplements,
- a certain logical pattern to regroup the same countries with a SKU whereas possible,
- whether or not a localized DTS track is a selling point (Fox, BVHE...),
- the presence of customized supplements or whether they must be dubbed (like Disney),
- and finally, the UK and Germany have specific censorship requirements (unless their laws recently changed), and some of their DVDs might be cut or doctored while they're released uncut in the rest of continental Europe.

Can we assume that the same reasoning will be applied to BD, and that a BD-50 could actually reduce the number of SKUs that are needed for most releases?

Paidgeek, I also have a followup question. There are some movies where you don't have selected territories (like Underworld Evolution, RE2 or Silent Hill). Can we assume that the video encode might be the same, as is sometimes the case for DLTs?

I have to strongly object here. BD50s have been used by all studios that support Blu-ray.
You are strongly objecting to the wrong thing :). We are not talking about straight BD-50 discs. We are talking about BD-50 discs on one side, and HD DVD on the other side. As you know, majority of BD-50 discs are being made by Sony. So you may want to ask paidgeek if they are going to get in the business of creating these combo discs. I am sure you know the answer before asking as I am sure hell will freeze over before Sony makes HD DVD discs. But I could be wrong :).

This is the problem when you don't have a process that everyone can replicate. When you have your competitor making discs for you, they are liable to only make the kind of discs they like.

All the exclusive studios have made press announcements at CES that state they will be taking advantage of the now readily available BD50 discs, from Sony to Fox to BVHE.
Neither of whom will be making these combo discs.

As for the THD demo, it was done using Superman Returns, which is an HD30 and BD50 release.
No such disc has been even prototyped to my knowledge.

From the press conference:
http://www.engadget.com/2007/01/09/live-coverage-from-the-warner-press-conference/
Where does it say it was BD-50?

How do you get "likely, we will be talking about BD-25." from that statement?
Please read my previous posts. You will see where the likely statement comes from.

From Warner's previous statements
http://www.thedigitalbits.com/mytwocentsa130.html
Let me be clear that Warner wishes to have BD-50 on these discs. As they do on BD without combo option. But wishing something and having the technology and cost factor to deliver it is another matter, especially when you have to deal with non-BD companies making difficult to make discs for you.

Putting all of this aside, even in non-combo discs many BD titles are in BD-25. So unless that problem is fully solved, then expecting even more complicated discs to all be using BD-50 is very premature.

David, was it you that asked about why Warner doesn't use TrueHD on their BD discs? If so, in absence of cjplay here, I will take a shot at it. I believe it is for two reasons:

1. Warner will only target the features that are available in all the players. So if you want TrueHD, then you must convince BD companies to put that feature in their players. We hear this theme constantly from the studios. If the feature is not standard in the player, they are not liable to waste resources chasing it (yes, there are exceptions with DTS lossless in case of Fox and Studio canal but there, the core stream is playable). You have the proof in front of you in the form of interactivity and audio.

2. My understanding from talking to Dolby is that BD does NOT allow TrueHD 5.1 It only allows TrueHD for 7.1. If you want 5.1, you have to still encode in 7.1 with two dummy channels. If so, then you can't just use the 5.1 encode from HD DVD.

Where does it say it was BD-50?
So you're now inferring that they created an HD30/BD25 THD demo of Superman Returns just for this demonstration?

Let me be clear that Warner wishes to have BD-50 on these discs. As they do on BD without combo option. But wishing something and having the technology and cost factor to deliver it is another matter, especially when you have to deal with non-BD companies making difficult to make discs for you.

Putting all of this aside, even in non-combo discs many BD titles are in BD-25. So unless that problem is fully solved, then expecting even more complicated discs to all be using BD-50 is very premature.
It seems to me the problem has been solved as we are seeing BD50 discs on a much larger scale. The fact that every studio now has released titles on BD50 discs, along with Warner's statement regarding BD50 availability, would suggest that there are no complications involved anymore regarding BD50 discs and, in fact, magic has happened.

It seems to me the problem has been solved as we are seeing BD50 discs on a much larger scale. The fact that every studio now has released titles on BD50 discs, along with Warner's statement regarding BD50 availability, would suggest that there are no complications involved anymore regarding BD50 discs and, in fact, magic has happened.
Hmmm. I don't know how we continue to talk past each other :).

These are NOT BD-50 discs. These are BD-50 discs on one side, HD DVD on the other. Do you think Sony/MEI will make these discs or not? If you take out Sony, then please tell me who is left that is able to make BD-50 discs period, let alone combo.

Do you think it is just as easy to make a BD-50 disc on one side and blank on the other, as compared to having HD DVD on the other side? Do you think the yields and costs will be the same?

Do you think there is a machine that has a merger of BD-50 and HD DVD-30 in the same line?

Without knowing the answer to these questions, then no, the magic is not solved.

First of all, I would like to thank all the insiders for participating in this thread. I think it is awesome that you take the time to speak to your consumers like this.

My question is this: why is there so little dual-support from the film production companies?

I realize the answer to this can be summed up in a very short "partnership agreement" response, but that's not what I'm looking for from this forum. As a consumer who is new to HD television (I purchased a 1080i TV in September) and HD-DVD (Xbox 360 add-on in December), I find it frustrating to have to choose sides. I find it upsetting that I can't watch my favorite movies in HD simply because the production company is on the other side of the fence.

I can understand how Sony and Toshiba are in a battle for their format to rule supreme ($$), but why is Hollywood being forced in the middle of the tug-of-war with consumers stuck on the losing side either way? Are the HD-DVD and Blu-ray camps forcing that many companies to be "either with us, or against us" that there are so few cross format titles? Is it more each company's choice or the formats' powers of persuasion to be exclusive to one format or the other?

Simply put, I don't see why the film companies aren't supporting both formats or why some even bounce back and forth. I apologize for my simplistic mentality, but why must any company chose one rather than both?

Without knowing the answer to these questions, then no, the magic is not solved.
So you have no real basis outside of speculation that BD25 is more likely on these discs then correct?

Managed Copy again.

The recent "release" by Sony that they are "probably" going to allow copying sometime this year has raised some questions again.

So Amir, Paidgeek:

Does AACS specify Managed Copy as Mandatory? ie does AACS specify MC or MMC?

If MMC, does that mean every disc must support MC, or every player must support MC?

If MMC, are there any restrictions on what qualifies as the MMC, ie does it have to be full quality, or does a PSP version count?

Does Mandatory Managed Copy mean (provided a MC enabled player) I can make an MC of any disc?

If MC is Mandatory per AACS, does that mean I can make an MC of any HD DVD?

If MC is Mandatory per AACS, does that mean I can make an MC of any BD?

What is the holdup on MC?

When will we see it?

Are the studios fighting it?

Has MC been deep-sixed?

Paidgeek: Is the "copy" Sony was talking about Managed Copy or something different? What are/will be the requirements for making a copy? What are the restrictions?

Amir: Windows Home Server seems to be making a splash, there's talk of an AMD Live! server using WHS, will that support storage of MCs?

Can either of you, or anybody give further details about MC? The silence on this front has been deafening. It's a must have feature for me to purchase discs on either format.

Can any other insiders comment on this?...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9429008&&#post9429008

Amir, I'm really sorry this is all unraveling on you, and I appreciate what you've done with VC-1 for videophiles worldwide. However, might I suggest that you discuss your own products rather than someone else's, I think we'll all be much better off.

Well since other companies reps have been chased off and the BD folks are not answering the questions then I applaud Amir's attempts to get us some information. If you find the information innacurate then challenge it, remember "challenge the information, not the poster"?

Do you think there is a machine that has a merger of BD-50 and HD DVD-30 in the same line?

Without knowing the answer to these questions, then no, the magic is not solved.

I'm still trying to get my head around the merging of HD DVD and BD lines PERIOD. All I can come up with is a hopper approach. Take the BD 0.6mm halves and feed them into a DVD-18 like production line.

So, it's a sneaker transfer system between lines.

I was under the impression that Cinram got a BD50 line installed in November. Can anyone confirm or deny that?

Gary

I was under the impression that Cinram got a BD50 line installed in November. Can anyone confirm or deny that?

Gary

And if so, what is there expected production output levels? Would they be able to handle mass production of Warner, HBO, New Line and expected studios to follow all needing BR50/HD30 discs?

Can any other insiders comment on this?...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9429008&&#post9429008

Amir, I'm really sorry this is all unraveling on you, and I appreciate what you've done with VC-1 for videophiles worldwide. However, might I suggest that you discuss your own products rather than someone else's, I think we'll all be much better off.

I'm not an insider to be making any type of comments but I guess it was my original questions that spurred Amirs reply on this matter. I just wanted to point out that my original questions were directed to both sides and Amir was kind enough to spend the time to answer my questions.

And yes info from BR insiders is still welcome about all of this.

Thanks All

Simple question: Will Meridian be releasing their own HD DVD player this year?

The HD DVD press release said they were going to release a player, but Meridian's own press release (backing up their spokesman's earlier comments) don't have any mention of a player for release.

Do any of the insiders have a comment on Digital Playground's comment that there is censorship of porn for manufacturing on the Blu-ray side?

Somehow this strikes me as false, but I would like to hear more truth in the matter. I do note this article (http://www.tgdaily.com/2007/01/11/ces2007_hddvd_blu_ray/) which claims the real issue is cost.

A firmware update will be released in a few days to solve this. The disc is spec compliant as far we know and the player has a bug.Hi, will this firmware update also fix problems with the BDP-S1 playing other titles like Speed Behind Enemy Lines and LXG as noted in the FAQ in the BD section of Sony web site?

Is that still being examined? Should we expected a software update anytime soon so that DD+ gets converted to DTS instead?



Or am I going to have to wait for the next XBOX with HDMI and 7.1 True HD / DTS HD / LPCM to get better sound? I hope you guys get this thing out the door soon. Oh wait, it doesn't officialy exist yet. It only exists in cyberspace on edgadget. ;-)


Thanks,
Larry

Also keep in mind that VC-1 syntax in BD is more restrictive than in HD DVD.sspears said before that Microsoft has been providing same version to studios/post houses. WB is said that they are using same encodings for both HD DVD and BD, so, if VC-1 syntax in BD is more restrictive than in HD DVD, do you mean that WB's VC-1 encodings are also restricted by BD's syntax? As to the "restriction", don't you think 29.4Mbps limitation is not a restriction compared to 40Mbps?

Should we expected a software update anytime soon so that DD+ gets converted to DTS instead?
Yes, there will be an update supporting DTS out (AC-3 will also remain an option).

Paidgeek, when is Lawrence of Arabia going to be released on BD?

It must've been at least 3 days since anyone last asked. :)

amirm, what about the DD+ problem on xbox 360 HD DVD?

Yes, there will be an update supporting DTS out (AC-3 will also remain an option).

Hi Ben,

Does your answer to lffisher mean, "Yes, there is a problem and our fix is for you to use DTS which we will provide in a future update."?

Thanks,

Don

I guess what I'm trying to get at is, is it part of the BD-Video, BD-ROM or whatever specification is relevant, that for commercial discs, whatever player you have at whatever spec, you are gauranteed to be able to at least play the film. If that's the case then it surely means that even though 1G players may never be BD-Live compliant, you will always be able to use them to actually watch the main feature. As I said, this is beyond the realm of the specification. There is nothing which prevents a studio from authoring a title which simply does nothing on a player which doesn't support a given feature. There would be absolutely no value in doing so, so I cannot possibly imagine a studio ever purposely releasing a title where the movie itself would not play even if some bonus features require capability not present on a given player, but if they wanted to they could. Note that this is equally true for HD DVD. There's nothing preventing Universal from issuing a title which won't run at all if a given player isn't at a given firmware release, doesn't have network connectivity enabled, or doesn't support enhanced video.
I don't want to buy a player that potentially will not play a large number of discs over the next couple of years, but wouldn't necessarily mind buying one that will only not play the advanced interactive contentIn this case I'm extremely confident you can safely purchase any Blu-ray player on the market.

- Talk

Amir, in case you're no longer following the Format Battle thread:

Section 3.3.2 of the HD DVD-Video Guideline for Player and Content (http://www.dvdforum.org/images/HD_DVD-Video_Guideline20060828.pdf) describes Enhanced Video Format as:
3.3.2 Bitrate for Enhanced Video format (optional)
It is not mandated to for a player to decode Sub Video stream which is Enhanced Video format. If a player support Enhanced Video format in Sub Video stream, the bitrate for each codec defined in [Table 6.3.5-3] shall be decoded.
Can you explain what Enhanced Video format is, whether any current HD DVD players support it, and whether it's something the studios might care to use?

- Talk

I realize this question was not directed at me, but I can answer it. The Sony press release (which you can read here (http://news.sel.sony.com/en/press_room/consumer/home_audio_video/blu-ray_disc/release/26539.html)) which was released before the player was available to purchase, clearly states that the player would not play BD-J content until an update was made available in 2007. No, Josh, the press release states:
Sony will be offering firmware updates in 2007 to allow the BDP-S1 model to play back BD-R/RE recorded media and enhanced BD-Java functionality. It says "enhanced BD-Java functionality". If the word "enhanced" were not there it could certainly be interpreted to imply there is no BD-J. The word "enhanced" implies it will be improved, such as better performance.

Further, posts here have clearly stated that the BDP-S1 does play BD-J titles, which should irrefutably put to bed any discussion regarding what the intent of Sony's language is.

The third layer is on the surface of one half. So no, nothing is on the actual surface of the disc. We are still talking about two .6mm halves being fused together, yielding faster cycle time than molding a thick substrate as BD does. And we still enjoy the same natural protection a deeper recording system provides.

But you are right that is not precisely the same process as current DVD. It adds some level of complexity. But these discs will still be cheaper and easier to produce than BD-50Amir, you requested no response on BD50 capacity without explicit specs to back up a response. May I see some explicity specs which allow you to state with certainty that TL discs will be cheaper and easier to replicate than BD50? Has there been a single instance of volume production which can even begin to provide such data?

This question is to Amir and Talk:

From your discussions with the studio heads, how much of an effect did the alleged HD-DVD hack have to do with no new studio support announcements for HD-DVD? None whatsoever. Even if the "hack" proves to be legitimate, AACS was fully designed to adapt to such instances. Further, even if AACS had been fully compromised, other protections have been incorporated into the Blu-ray spec at studio request which could provide further protection beyond AACS. And I'm not willing to get into a discussion here as to whether those additional protections would in fact be helpful, as it's not an area I follow closely, but some people in influential studio positions believe this to be the case, which directly reflects upon studio response to the incident.

sspears said before that Microsoft has been providing same version to studios/post houses. WB is said that they are using same encodings for both HD DVD and BD, so, if VC-1 syntax in BD is more restrictive than in HD DVD, do you mean that WB's VC-1 encodings are also restricted by BD's syntax? As to the "restriction", don't you think 29.4Mbps limitation is not a restriction compared to 40Mbps?
BD and HD DVD have somewhat different subsets of VC-1, but the common denominator is plenty sufficient for producing very high quality movies, as Warner has been amply demonstrating.

I just read on the bits that Warner's Total HD discs will contain "the same features" on both the HD DVD and BD sides. On the one hand, I understand this logic given that they want to minimize consumer frustration with not being able to access an advertised feature based on their particular format of player. However, it also seems a serious waste in that every 50GB BD side will basically be treated like 30GB. For titles like Amadeus, Color Purple, or LOTR where multiple lossless tracks (like a music-only track in lossless) or high-res lossless like 24/48 instead of 16/48 might have been included on the 50GB HD media, I'm worried that the studio will "dumb down" the content to keep it consistent with what can be placed on the 30GB HD DVD layer.

Can any insider share some thoughts on this?Yes. Make your views known to Warner (and any other format-neutral studio which does the same thing). Contact their execs. Don't buy their discs.

- Talk

No, Josh, the press release states:
Sony will be offering firmware updates in 2007 to allow the BDP-S1 model to play back BD-R/RE recorded media and enhanced BD-Java functionality. It says "enhanced BD-Java functionality". If the word "enhanced" were not there it could certainly be interpreted to imply there is no BD-J. The word "enhanced" implies it will be improved, such as better performance.

Further, posts here have clearly stated that the BDP-S1 does play BD-J titles, which should irrefutably put to bed any discussion regarding what the intent of Sony's language is.

I guess I'm confused as to why The Descent didn't play then. It works fine in my Panasonic, but has been reported not to work in the Sony or Pioneer. Sony has said it is a problem with the player. Pioneer says its a problem with the disc. Can you provide any insight as to where the problem is?

My question is this: why is there so little dual-support from the film production companies? Simply put, I don't see why the film companies aren't supporting both formats or why some even bounce back and forth. I apologize for my simplistic mentality, but why must any company chose one rather than both?Because most of the studios believe consumers are far better served by one format than two. We've already seen the various issues a format war creates - duplicative technology, inefficient packaging, lost features on one format or the other, consumer confusion, etc. If a studio can bring about a single format more quickly by refusing to be neutral, the payback happens fairly quickly (most analysts believe single-format consumer adoption will be 2x the combined adoption of two separate formats).
I can understand how Sony and Toshiba are in a battle for their format to rule supreme ($$), but why is Hollywood being forced in the middle of the tug-of-war with consumers stuck on the losing side either way?The only way consumers lose is if we're stuck with two formats long-term.

BD and HD DVD have somewhat different subsets of VC-1, but the common denominator is plenty sufficient for producing very high quality movies, as Warner has been amply demonstrating.Ben, what is the more restrictive syntax of VC-1 defined in BD spec?

Do any of the insiders have a comment on Digital Playground's comment that there is censorship of porn for manufacturing on the Blu-ray side?I've read that Sony chooses not to press porn titles, but there is no evidence of a prohibition preventing others from doing so (nor do I believe this would be legal). Note that while I have absolutely no problem with porn, I don't believe Sony's stance in any way qualifies as censorship; it's simply a business decision not to produce material which may cause a certain (narrow-minded, IMO) segment of the population to shun their products. It's no different than Comcast (or virtually all other cable operators) only offering soft-core porn; the "Puritans" have enough clout in most communities to create a backlash against purveyors of hard-core content.

I guess I'm confused as to why The Descent didn't play then. It works fine in my Panasonic, but has been reported not to work in the Sony or Pioneer. Sony has said it is a problem with the player. Pioneer says its a problem with the disc. Can you provide any insight as to where the problem is?I've seen both theories; my best guess is that the title was authored in a way which relies on a particular firmware API which was improperly implemented in those players. Updating either the disc or the firmware could remedy the issue, but updating the firmware makes more sense since there will undoubtedly be other reasons to update the firmware.

Ben, what is the more restrictive syntax of VC-1 defined in BD spec?
I am not Ben, but will answer :). For some strange reason, no one from BDA consulted with us when creating the profile for VC-1 on BD! So they restricted the number of B frames the stream can have as compared to HD DVD.

We have already had one movie/segment that had to be re-encoded at higher bitrate and fewer B frames to get the equiv. quality. on BD. So compressionists are trying to be careful as to avoid this situation.

Yes. Make your views known to Warner (and any other format-neutral studio which does the same thing). Contact their execs. - Talk
No, please make your views known to BD equipment makers. They are the ones who left out features in the player. Warner is not to blame here as they are using advanaced features in HD DVD.

Don't buy their discs.
Yes, yes, please don't buy their BD discs :). That is really good advice I am sure...

Yes. Make your views known to Warner (and any other format-neutral studio which does the same thing). Contact their execs. Don't buy their discs.

- Talk

I truly hope Steve Nickerson does not read post from insiders telling us not to purchase their discs. If Warner goes %100 BD/HDDVD combo please explain how else would I get to enjoy the exclusive Warner titles?

John

I am not Ben, but will answer :). For some strange reason, no one from BDA consulted with us when creating the profile for VC-1 on BD! So they restricted the number of B frames the stream can have as compared to HD DVD.

We have already had one movie/segment that had to be re-encoded at higher bitrate and fewer B frames to get the equiv. quality. on BD. So compressionists are trying to be careful as to avoid this situation.

That poses an interesting point as to the SMPTE specfication for VC-1. Is guidance from Microsoft still a requirement to do a proper implemention of VC-1 ??

b2b

Further, even if AACS had been fully compromised, other protections have been incorporated into the Blu-ray spec at studio request which could provide further protection beyond AACS.
We have discussed this myth at length. Had the hack been real, there was nothing that BD+ could have done, had it been ready (which it doesn't seem to be). In addition, BD+ provides new opportunities to break BD players, and undermine AACS in case of such hacks (it truly “closes one door and opens many windows”). Again, we have discussed these at length. Happy to provide the links to anyone bored enough to chase a debate which is moot at this point.

And I'm not willing to get into a discussion here as to whether those additional protections would in fact be helpful, as it's not an area I follow closely, but some people in influential studio positions believe this to be the case, which directly reflects upon studio response to the incident.
Talk, please talk again to BDA about this as I believe you are taking an unsupported position. I was very pleased to see Andy Parsons on the panel take the same position as us that this is not a format issue and it would be inappropriate to turn it into one. Your contrary position tells me that you may not be up to speed on this matter (which is understandable given the fact that your company is not an AACS member or involved in development/specifications of BD+).

I am not Ben, but will answer :). For some strange reason, no one from BDA consulted with us when creating the profile for VC-1 on BD! So they restricted the number of B frames the stream can have as compared to HD DVD.

We have already had one movie/segment that had to be re-encoded at higher bitrate and fewer B frames to get the equiv. quality. on BD. So compressionists are trying to be careful as to avoid this situation.Thank you Amir to clarify that.

Amir, you requested no response on BD50 capacity without explicit specs to back up a response.
Correct, and nothing has been forthcoming. When do you think we will get that data? Any independent replicator has provided yield and cycle time with the methodology used to gather it?

May I see some explicity specs which allow you to state with certainty that TL discs will be cheaper and easier to replicate than BD50? Has there been a single instance of volume production which can even begin to provide such data?
Well, there has not been any volume production of BD-50 so your last question is moot (10 to 15K disc runs is not "volume production"). :)

But I appreciate the point, and accept your desire to ignore the claim without more data.

That poses an interesting point as to the SMPTE specfication for VC-1. Is guidance from Microsoft still a requirement to do a proper implemention of VC-1 ??

b2b
Sorry, I think I may have confused you with my answer. VC-1 is VC-1. As are MPEG-2 and AVC. The spec for these codecs is quite broad so adopters put limits on them as to make it practical to build a product. For example, neither format lets you have a 100 mbit/sec VC-1 stream, but the SMPTE standard obviously does (ditto for MPEG-2/AVC). A decoder which handles 100 mbit/sec would be more expensive than one that handles much lower data rate.

So all distribution standards (optical, over the air, etc.) spec constraints around the codecs so that hardware can be properly designed to handle the worst case scenarios. DVD has its own profile for MPEG-2 for example.

As to your question, we obviously had more expertise than other companies in ways to extract the best performance in VC-1 for HD content, especially when you consider that the decision was made almost three years ago. It would have only been prudent to ask us for input, for a standard that is supposed to last a while (and even more according to BDA proponents).

So was there a requirement to talk to us? No. Clearly BD format works with VC-1. And the fact that it does, is great proof of the fact that VC-1 stands alone without Microsoft.

Amir (or any insider) -

Could you please refresh my memory as to what the B frames are? At the session you held in Dallas I seem to remember that it is a made up frame from a previous and future "real" frame. Is that correct?

Laters,
Jeff

I am please to provide the official clarification on Meridian support of HD DVD: http://media.meridian-audio.com/press/CES07-presskit/meridian-hddvd-ces07.pdf

International CES 2007, Las Vegas, NV, January 11, 2007—Leading British audio/video
manufacturer Meridian (South Hall 1, Booth 20538) is pleased to make the following statement to clarify the situation regarding reports on its involvement in HD-DVD.
“Meridian is a company renowned for state-of-the-art digital audio and video technology, and we are delighted to be working with Microsoft on the development of high-end players. Meridian has for some time been deeply involved in some of the core audio technology in HD DVD and at CES 2007 we are pleased to announce that we have now joined the HD DVD Promotional Group.

“Consistent with Meridian's product development approach, where standards of performance, particularly for audio and video are exceptionally high, product development takes some time, and for that reason we cannot announce any product-specific details at this time."

I truly hope Steve Nickerson does not read post from insiders telling us not to purchase their discs. If Warner goes %100 BD/HDDVD combo please explain how else would I get to enjoy the exclusive Warner titles?You wouldn't. But I'm sure Warner management would like to know if people aren't buying his discs because they don't support Blu-ray to the same extent as HD DVD so they could analyze whether any additional expense in fully supporting Blu-ray would be justified by the additional revenue it would support.

Talk, please talk again to BDA about this as I believe you are taking an unsupported position.The question was "how much of an effect did the alleged HD-DVD hack have to do with no new studio support announcements for HD-DVD?", not "what does the alleged HD-DVD hack impact one format more than the other". Do you believe any exec at any studio believes that Blu-ray's content protection mechanisms provide an increased margin of safety against compromise? If so, my response is correct, regardless of whether, in fact, those mechanisms do indeed provide any protection. If not then you're apparently stating that Fox has changed their position on the matter.

Yes, there will be an update supporting DTS out (AC-3 will also remain an option).

Any chance for WMA Pro out? The 360 menu has an option for it but it doesn't work.

No, please make your views known to BD equipment makers. They are the ones who left out features in the player. Warner is not to blame here as they are using advanaced features in HD DVD.Over a million Blu-ray players fully support TrueHD, while an Xbox 360 HD DVD player owner gets no better sound from a TrueHD track than they would a DD track. Holding BD equipment makers responsible for Warner's decision not to include TrueHD support on Blu-ray releases is clearly misplaced blame.

Will this firmware update also fix problems with the BDP-S1 playing other titles like Speed Behind Enemy Lines and LXG as noted in the FAQ in the BD section of Sony web site?The FAQ notes no such problems, it states "To enjoy the BD-J function in some discs, you may need to upgrade your player with the latest firmware." There are reports that these titles work just fine on the BDP-S1. Do you have evidence to the contrary?

Do you believe any exec at any studio believes that Blu-ray's content protection mechanisms provide an increased margin of safety against compromise?
OK, now it is "any exec" at "any studio"? And some "increased margin" as opposed to curing the hack?

But no, I do not beleive the companies who developed the security architecture for BD (i.e. those are who members of both AACS and BDA) believe that BD+ provides any additional level of protection against the type of attack reported.

If so, my response is correct, regardless of whether, in fact, those mechanisms do indeed provide any protection. If not then you're apparently stating that Fox has changed their position on the matter.
You are confusing what Fox wants out of BD+, and what this hack is all about.

Regardless, if your entire point is that you heard something from someone saying BD+ is good, and you have no way of proving the same yourself nor do you have access to specifications which allow you to have an informed opinion, then we can leave the matter as is and let folks judge the value of such statement.

Any chance for WMA Pro out? The 360 menu has an option for it but it doesn't work.Oh, hey, there's another optional feature on HD DVD (in addition to the mysterious Enhanced Video Support which Amir doesn't appear to be interested in explaining). Amir, do any HD DVD players support WMA Pro? Is it something studios might wish to use, and if so do you think consumers who have players which don't support it might feel misled regarding their ability to enjoy it?

Over a million Blu-ray players fully support TrueHD, while an Xbox 360 HD DVD player owner gets no better sound from a TrueHD track than they would a DD track. Holding BD equipment makers responsible for Warner's decision not to include TrueHD support on Blu-ray releases is clearly misplaced blame.
Will you give me permission to forward your post to Warner? They deserve to respond to your accusation that it is their fault that this situation exist, and not the BDA for overriding their wishes to make these formats mandatory in that spec, as was voted by very same companies for HD DVD.

You asked for people to talk to Warner execs. Here is your chance :).

2. My understanding from talking to Dolby is that BD does NOT allow TrueHD 5.1 It only allows TrueHD for 7.1. If you want 5.1, you have to still encode in 7.1 with two dummy channels. If so, then you can't just use the 5.1 encode from HD DVD.It sounds like you might be confusing DD+ with TrueHD, so could you please verify this one.

Also, even if Warner has a valid excuse for leaving TrueHD off on "Superman Returns" on BD, I think a valid question is why they didn't put an uncompressed PCM track on there. And argument that it was because of waste wouldn't be very valid since they should have had both the bitrate and space to put in on there and those things look like they went unused without it.

So, my question is why not an uncompressed PCM track when the space and bandwidth aren't going to be used otherwise? Is it a matter of cost? Wanting to keep a different balance between what the HD DVD provides to customers and what the BD provides to customers (which might be a reason to leave 24/48 uncompressed PCM off the BD to keep it from having superior audio even though it would fit just fine)? Something else?

--Darin

Talk, I think you and I are abusing our privileges on this thread. The mods kindly keep the members from bickering and arguing with us. They however, give us the freedom to disagree at ease. While some of this is useful at times, the level of it since CES goes well beyond the spirit of why this thread was created -- namely, a nice and relaxed atmosphere to answer questions from non-insiders and not a forum to argue points left and right.

I think it is inappropriate for us to have the right to argue back and forth while keeping the forum members out of it. I certainly feel guilty every time I answer an argumentative post by you. There are plenty of other threads where food fights are tolerated but this one isn’t it.

So I hope I have your support for going back to essentially answering questions from non-insiders in this thread and leave the arguments to other threads. And yes, I am as guilty as you are in this :). But the two of us can fix it….

Thanks in advance,

Amir/Ben,

Any CES news regarding HD DVD authoring for the PC consumer/prosumer?

The FAQ notes no such problems, it states "To enjoy the BD-J function in some discs, you may need to upgrade your player with the latest firmware." There are reports that these titles work just fine on the BDP-S1. Do you have evidence to the contrary?Apparently Sony does...

Sony Link (http://www.iq.sony.com/SRVS/CGI-BIN/WEBCGI.EXE?New,Kb=CISCV3,Company={46BFA530-E01F-4F7C-B98B-69C2AA06051B},Case=Obj(444272),TS=externalv4,T=case.tem,VARS ET_MODELNUM=,VARSET_OBJ=444272,VARSET_TOP=TRUE,question=ref( QC):ord(1),question=ref(QB):ord(1))

Sony eSupport Knowledge Base
Knowledge Article C444272

A particular Blu-ray Disc™ movie title will not play or an interactive game does not function properly.

These issues may occur on certain Blu-ray Disc™ (BD) movie titles with Java content. A firmware upgrade to address this is planned for the beginning of 2007. If you register the BD player at https://productregistration.sony.com, Sony will mail you the firmware upgrade when it becomes available.

NOTE: The following BD movie titles are known to exhibit these symptoms:

The Descent
Speed
The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen
Behind Enemy Lines

Created: Tue Nov 21 15:47 2006 | Last Modified: Fri Dec 22 12:26 2006

Awfully silly of them to say there's a problem when there's no problem, right?

(mods, that counts as a question to an insider! :))

Apparently Sony does...

Sony Link (http://www.iq.sony.com/SRVS/CGI-BIN/WEBCGI.EXE?New,Kb=CISCV3,Company={46BFA530-E01F-4F7C-B98B-69C2AA06051B},Case=Obj(444272),TS=externalv4,T=case.tem,VARS ET_MODELNUM=,VARSET_OBJ=444272,VARSET_TOP=TRUE,question=ref( QC):ord(1),question=ref(QB):ord(1))

Sony eSupport Knowledge Base
Knowledge Article C444272

A particular Blu-ray Disc™ movie title will not play or an interactive game does not function properly.

These issues may occur on certain Blu-ray Disc™ (BD) movie titles with Java content. A firmware upgrade to address this is planned for the beginning of 2007. If you register the BD player at https://productregistration.sony.com, Sony will mail you the firmware upgrade when it becomes available.

NOTE: The following BD movie titles are known to exhibit these symptoms:

The Descent
Speed
The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen
Behind Enemy Lines

Created: Tue Nov 21 15:47 2006 | Last Modified: Fri Dec 22 12:26 2006

Awfully silly of them to say there's a problem when there's no problem, right?

(mods, that counts as a question to an insider! :))
We really need to have an honorary Insider title we can bestow on some people who know more than we do at times :D

Oh, hey, there's another optional feature on HD DVD (in addition to the mysterious Enhanced Video Support which Amir doesn't appear to be interested in explaining). Amir, do any HD DVD players support WMA Pro? Is it something studios might wish to use, and if so do you think consumers who have players which don't support it might feel misled regarding their ability to enjoy it?

Does HD DVD support WMA Pro?

The original poster is talking about a Xbox 360 feature. Currently the 360 re-encodes everything to Dolby Digital, we all know that a DTS upgrade is on the way. The 360 could also out put WMA Pro.

I would really appreciate if insiders could comment on the fidelity of the 360's WMA Pro compared to Dolby Digital and DTS.

Will you give me permission to forward your post to Warner? They deserve to respond to your accusation that it is their fault that this situation exist, and not the BDA for overriding their wishes to make these formats mandatory in that spec, as was voted by very same companies for HD DVD.I did not say it is their fault that some Blu-ray players don't support TrueHD, that is how you have spun what I said. I said Warner is solely responsible for choosing not to put a TrueHD soundtrack on their Blu-ray titles. The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of Blu-ray players (a far greater number than total HD DVD players) can fully support TrueHD. I stand by this response, as well as my advice that if people are displeased with Warner's strategy two ways to register that displeasure are to contact Warner, or don't buy the titles.
You asked for people to talk to Warner execs. Here is your chanceI have that chance on a regular basis at BDA meetings. Nonetheless, I give you full permission to forward this post, since it accurately reflects my sentiments in proper context. Of course, you don't require my permission to forward whatever you like, but it would be dishonest of you to forward my posts out of context. I would also recommend you mention to them that their presence here once again to respond to such customer concerns would be welcome.

The FAQ notes no such problems, it states "To enjoy the BD-J function in some discs, you may need to upgrade your player with the latest firmware." There are reports that these titles work just fine on the BDP-S1. Do you have evidence to the contrary?I have not personally experienced problems with the afore-mentioned titles because I've held off purchasing them due to reading about problems in the BD Players and Software threads.

As for evidence of problems reported by Sony for these titles...Yes, as as I previously mentioned there is a FAQ on Sony's web site. Here is a link to it....
http://www.iq.sony.com/SRVS/CGI-BIN/WEBCGI.EXE?New,Kb=CISCV3,Company={46BFA530-E01F-4F7C-B98B-69C2AA06051B},Case=Obj(444272),TS=externalv4,T=case.tem,VARS ET_MODELNUM=,VARSET_OBJ=444272,VARSET_TOP=TRUE,question=ref( QC):ord(1),question=ref(QB):ord(1)

Its a different FAQ than the one you say "notes no such problems".

Edit: amillians included the text from the link in his post above.

I'm just trying to determine if the firmware fix mentioned by the Sony Insider applies to these additional titles as well as to The Descent as such a fix would boost my confidence in the Sony DBP-S1 (which I'm currently considering returning due to these no-play issues).

I think it is inappropriate for us to have the right to argue back and forth while keeping the forum members out of it. I certainly feel guilty every time I answer an argumentative post by you. So I hope I have your support for going back to essentially answering questions from non-insiders in this thread and leave the arguments to other threads.Sure, with the caveat that I will continue to ask you questions here where it is clearly of general interest to others than myself, and would expect that you may well do the same.

For instance, I've not seen a response to this (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9432683&&#post9432683) question regarding what Enhanced Video format is, whether it's supported in any current HD DVD players, and whether any studios might choose to support it? Several posters here have indicated a desire for full disclosure as to features in the respective format specs which might be optional. While the optionality of DTS-HD MA decoding support is quite well-known, the mere existence of Enhanced Video seems to be a well-kept secret, let alone what it does and whether a consumer ought factor in support for this feature in any purchase decision.

Apparently Sony does...[quote]A particular Blu-ray Disc™ movie title will not play or an interactive game does not function properly.Fair enough, there are apparently issues with these titles. Nonetheless, this doesn't indicate no BD-J support, just that certain BD-J features may not work properly.
I'm just trying to determine if the firmware fix mentioned by the Sony Insider applies to these additional titles as well as to The Descent as such a fix would boost my confidence in the Sony DBP-S1 (which I'm currently considering returning due to these no-play issues).I believe The Descent is the only title which simply doesn't play. The other titles apparently play, but it may be that certain bonus content doesn't work. I think it is almost a certainty that an upcoming firmware update will remedy any known issues.

Talk,

As a consumer of BOTH Blu-Ray and HD-DVD, I wanted to point out that your oft times "belligerent" tone has really turned me off to your position. While I am certain that there is valuable content which you would like to disseminate on these boards, using terms such as "dishonest" and "blame" and the accusatory tone you take does not succeed in convincing me of your point.

After all, these are ENTERTAINMENT devices!

I would please request (my question here) that everyone begin to talk ONLY about the benefits of their position WITHOUT having to resort to slamming the other system. In the end, the consumer can only win if they have proper information. Putting your "emotional foot in your mouth" doesn't help anyone.

Thank you for listening.

Are you planning on buying one Richard?Not really, but I believe that a lot of people are interested in the LG universal player if only because it will be the first universal player released.


Regardless, my answer could not have been more clear as are DVD forum rules. If you don't pass HD DVD tests, you don't get the logo. And the tests include HDi. So short of getting an LG insider telling you otherwise, this product is not going to have a logo in my opinion.Just curious but how did LG manage to make a universal player without any of the HD DVD companies knowing that they didn't plan to support HDi? Also if the universal player ships without either HDi support or a HD DVD logo do any of the HD DVD companies plan legal action against LG over this?


Will you give me permission to forward your post to Warner? They deserve to respond to your accusation that it is their fault that this situation exist, and not the BDA for overriding their wishes to make these formats mandatory in that spec, as was voted by very same companies for HD DVD.

You asked for people to talk to Warner execs. Here is your chance :).Amir, if you really believe that people have the right to complain to Warner about this issue why not give us all the opportunity to do that by posting the email address of that Warner executive you were thinking of forwarding Talkstr8t's post to? I would love to tell Warner what I think about their policy towards not having Dolby TrueHD audio tracks on their Blu-ray movies and would appreciate it if you were willing to help. In fact I have the hunch that many Blu-ray supporters would appreciate the ability to talk to Warner about this issue.

I really appreciate the many instances in this thread where insiders have answered our questions and provided greater clarity.

That said, I'm getting tired of seeing this thread cluttered by fanboys' gotcha questions: "Format1 does this great thing. I think Format2 is inferior because it lacks that great thing. Hey Format2 insider, am I right?"

And by insiders when they bicker and disrespect each other. Points to one who called for a truce, but points taken away when he broke that truce 3 posts later.

I'd like to see this thread stay much closer to its original intent: to clarify all this complex technology and to help us understand how and why particular technology and product decisions are made.

How about questions and answers about how BD and HD DVD work, and not whether either will succeed, fail, or dominate? How about questions and answers about codecs and studios and titles and their features, and not Amazon/NPD/WSJ estimates or projections of sales? And how about avoiding, altogether, requests from each side that the other hold a press conference in prime time to own up to its format's deficiencies?

[Mandatory question:] Mods & insiders, could you support the approach I've described? Everyone else, I won't pose a question for you to answer, but request that you help keep this conversation to the point and win your battles somewhere else.

I would please request (my question here) that everyone begin to talk ONLY about the benefits of their position WITHOUT having to resort to slamming the other system. In the end, the consumer can only win if they have proper information. Putting your "emotional foot in your mouth" doesn't help anyone.

Thank you for listening.
I made a similar request of a different insider today (to talk about his own products, not his opponents) and my post was reported and deleted...so good luck with this as I think it would be great for the forum if people talked SOLEY about their own products and not the competition's.

Just curious but how did LG manage to make a universal player without any of the HD DVD companies knowing that they didn't plan to support HDi?
I am not here to represent all DVD Forum member companies :). The key is that until CES, folks did not know LG was going to ship the product before it was finished. You don't stop a chef in the middle of cooking and ask them if they are going to serve the food raw :). You have an expectation that they are going to finish the cooking and not serve it still moving on your plate. :D

Also if the universal player ships without either HDi support or a HD DVD logo do any of the HD DVD companies plan legal action against LG over this?
Sigh. I have already answered this question so many times. So yet again, no, no one can sue another company unless they have a contract with them that is breached. We have none with LG so we have no ground to sue them. I suspect neither do the other DVD Forum members.

Amir, if you really believe that people have the right to complain to Warner about this issue why not give us all the opportunity to do that by posting the email address of that Warner executive you were thinking of forwarding Talkstr8t's post to?
:eek: You are not serious are you? I am not going to provide the email address of an executive here to be spammed by the world.

I would love to tell Warner what I think about their policy towards not having Dolby TrueHD audio tracks on their Blu-ray movies and would appreciate it if you were willing to help. In fact I have the hunch that many Blu-ray supporters would appreciate the ability to talk to Warner about this issue.
Best way to have reached out to Warner would have been to keep cjplay here. If you genuinely want to provide feedback to Warner, I suggest creating a petition on another thread asking for return of cjplay, and I will happily forward that to Warner executives.

I'd like to see this thread stay much closer to its original intent: to clarify all this complex technology and to help us understand how and why particular technology and product decisions are made.

[Mandatory question:] Mods & insiders, could you support the approach I've described?
Supported 1000%.

Mods - please allow me to express my 100% support for this post.
I really appreciate the many instances in this thread where insiders have answered our questions and provided greater clarity.

That said, I'm getting tired of seeing this thread cluttered by fanboys' gotcha questions: "Format1 does this great thing. I think Format2 is inferior because it lacks that great thing. Hey Format2 insider, am I right?"

And by insiders when they bicker and disrespect each other. Points to one who called for a truce, but points taken away when he broke that truce 3 posts later.

I'd like to see this thread stay much closer to its original intent: to clarify all this complex technology and to help us understand how and why particular technology and product decisions are made.

How about questions and answers about how BD and HD DVD work, and not whether either will succeed, fail, or dominate? How about questions and answers about codecs and studios and titles and their features, and not Amazon/NPD/WSJ estimates or projections of sales? And how about avoiding, altogether, requests from each side that the other hold a press conference in prime time to own up to its format's deficiencies?

[Mandatory question:] Mods & insiders, could you support the approach I've described? Everyone else, I won't pose a question for you to answer, but request that you help keep this conversation to the point and win your battles somewhere else.

:eek: You are not serious are you? I am not going to provide the email address of an executive here to be spammed by the world.Okay, and looking at it that way I can understand. Still do you know of any official Warner email address that would allow Blu-ray supporters to discuss with Warner the issue of Dolby TrueHD on Blu-ray?


Best way to have reached out to Warner would have been to keep cjplay here. If you genuinely want to provide feedback to Warner, I suggest creating a petition on another thread asking for return of cjplay, and I will happily forward that to Warner executives.I would like CJPlay to post here again, but wouldn't it actually make more sense for Blu-ray supporters to create a petition thread asking Warner for Dolby TrueHD on Blu-ray movies and for that to be forwarded to Warner executives?

Amir, Ben, Paidgeek, Talk and others:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9435733#post9435733

I'm hoping to have your endorsement in the above thread asking Warner for CJ's return to the community.

Amir, hopefully you can then pass it onto Warner and we can get him back here.

Thanks,
Robert.

How do we get the firmware? Will we be able to download and burn it or do we need to order it, or will it be sent automatically to registered owners?

I cannot speak for Sony Electronics, but I expect them to allow the user to download and burn and update disc or to send one to you if you choose to register with Sony.

For our test players, we perform updates with DVD-R.

To all insiders and studio reps:

16/48 lossless/LPCM is not good enough. We want 20/48 or 24/48 minimum when higher-than-16-bit LPCM masters exist.

downconverting a 24/96 master to 16/48 for "lossless" encoding isn't a "lossless" representation of that master. It may avoid the additional artifacts of psychoacoutic masking filters, but a 16/48 dither from a 24/96 master is not its equal, and is not adequate when bit-space and bandwith would have allowed the full-resolution original.

Duly noted. We appreciate that there is a performance difference between 16 and 20 bit.

That said, I'm getting tired of seeing this thread cluttered by fanboys' gotcha questions: "Format1 does this great thing. I think Format2 is inferior because it lacks that great thing. Hey Format2 insider, am I right?"
This is a huge problem as of late.

The push poll type technique of getting in jabs, etc when there is no real question being asked. Mods are smart enough to see this and should delete those posts when they are made.

For instance, I've not seen a response to this (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9432683&&#post9432683) question regarding what Enhanced Video format is, whether it's supported in any current HD DVD players, and whether any studios might choose to support it? Several posters here have indicated a desire for full disclosure as to features in the respective format specs which might be optional. While the optionality of DTS-HD MA decoding support is quite well-known, the mere existence of Enhanced Video seems to be a well-kept secret, let alone what it does and whether a consumer ought factor in support for this feature in any purchase decision.Enhanced Video Format is an optional higher bandwidth secondary video stream. Since it's optional, I expect it never to be used since standard secondary video performs admirably for the purpose (which is providing video to place in a PiP window). I'm not sure what the point of HD PiP is, except for the edge case of switching the PiP and main window and it seems an awful waste of bandwidth for something like that, and MI3 does it today anyway without HD PiP.

I've never understood the reason for optional features in a format spec myself, I've normally found that the words "MAY" in a spec generally mean "One of the partners insisted that <my favourite feature A> be available or they'll throw their toys, so we made it optional"

There are numerous examples of this in both specs :)

The XBox addon (probably the biggest selling HD DVD player currently) can support HD PiP in the same way the PS3 supports BD-Live, ie, the hardware doesn't rule it out, but it might require a software update. I would say the HD-A1 is also technically capable since it's secondary decoder is in CPU too. No idea about the NEC chip in the HD-A2, and the Broadcom 7440 I think supports two HD streams simultaneously, so no problems there.

I am not Ben, but will answer :). For some strange reason, no one from BDA consulted with us when creating the profile for VC-1 on BD! So they restricted the number of B frames the stream can have as compared to HD DVD.

We have already had one movie/segment that had to be re-encoded at higher bitrate and fewer B frames to get the equiv. quality. on BD. So compressionists are trying to be careful as to avoid this situation.

Does this mean that Universal being HD-DVD only at this point may have some room to make slightly more efficient encodes? Or do they also adhere to the lowest common denominator? (I guess you might not be able to answer that last question but well, just in case).

For our test players, we perform updates with DVD-R.

Shouldn't that be on DVD+R ? :) (J/K)

Cheers...
Duy-Khang Hoang

For their DVD releases here in Europe, the Studios manufacture a certain number of SKUs in order to cover the different spoken languages and hence the territories.

From my understanding, the number of SKUs which are required depend of a number of factors, but these are the main ones:
- available disk space after taking into account the main program + English track and supplements,
- a certain logical pattern to regroup the same countries with a SKU whereas possible,
- whether or not a localized DTS track is a selling point (Fox, BVHE...),
- the presence of customized supplements or whether they must be dubbed (like Disney),
- and finally, the UK and Germany have specific censorship requirements (unless their laws recently changed), and some of their DVDs might be cut or doctored while they're released uncut in the rest of continental Europe.

Can we assume that the same reasoning will be applied to BD, and that a BD-50 could actually reduce the number of SKUs that are needed for most releases?

Paidgeek, I also have a followup question. There are some movies where you don't have selected territories (like Underworld Evolution, RE2 or Silent Hill). Can we assume that the video encode might be the same, as is sometimes the case for DLTs?

You seem to have a good grasp of how the different SKU's are determined. We will likely continue with a similar pattern for BD, however with BD50 we have fewer restrictions when compared with DVD9.

I'm sorry but I don't precisely understand your last question. If you are asking about new video encodes, we will always try to use the the same encode as North America so long as no censorship issues exist.

Amir-

Thanks for your answer a couple of days ago regarding the HD-DVD featre with the oh-so-catchy name of S-EVOB. :D

Portions of a HD DVD spec have been quoting referring to an optional on-disc video stream as well. Would you mind shedding some light on that?

Perhaps the firewarks will be dying down a bit, and I applaud efforts in that regard. I hope, this being the case, you'll be willing to address the above.

Thanks.

David, was it you that asked about why Warner doesn't use TrueHD on their BD discs? If so, in absence of cjplay here, I will take a shot at it. I believe it is for two reasons:

1. Warner will only target the features that are available in all the players. So if you want TrueHD, then you must convince BD companies to put that feature in their players. We hear this theme constantly from the studios. If the feature is not standard in the player, they are not liable to waste resources chasing it (yes, there are exceptions with DTS lossless in case of Fox and Studio canal but there, the core stream is playable). You have the proof in front of you in the form of interactivity and audio.

2. My understanding from talking to Dolby is that BD does NOT allow TrueHD 5.1 It only allows TrueHD for 7.1. If you want 5.1, you have to still encode in 7.1 with two dummy channels. If so, then you can't just use the 5.1 encode from HD DVD.

It is not a problem to encode 5.1 Dolby lossless. There is no requirement to have "dummy channels".

It is not a problem to encode 5.1 Dolby lossless. There is no requirement to have "dummy channels".

Roger Dressler has commented on the issue also. I will quote it here (in his absence)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bfdtv
TrueHD is not implemented the same way on Blu-ray that it is on HD-DVD, which is why Warner has not been able to reuse its TrueHD encodings on BD releases.

Quote: Roger Dressler
TrueHD is the same for both disc formats, and the same file can technically be used on both. There may be other reasons why this is not being done.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9221973#post9221973

Other discussions of the issue are in the same thread.

b2b

Do any of the insiders have a comment on Digital Playground's comment that there is censorship of porn for manufacturing on the Blu-ray side?

Somehow this strikes me as false, but I would like to hear more truth in the matter. I do note this article (http://www.tgdaily.com/2007/01/11/ces2007_hddvd_blu_ray/) which claims the real issue is cost.

Sony replication will not handle pornographic product and I think many of other major replicators have similar policies. Nothing more than that.

Hi, will this firmware update also fix problems with the BDP-S1 playing other titles like Speed Behind Enemy Lines and LXG as noted in the FAQ in the BD section of Sony web site?

We just received a new version of firmware for testing so I cannot say to what extent the performance on these titles will improve. I'll find out shortly and let you know.

Paidgeek, when is Lawrence of Arabia going to be released on BD?

It must've been at least 3 days since anyone last asked. :)

It is still not in production. Please be patient...

Portions of a HD DVD spec have been quoting referring to an optional on-disc video stream as well. Would you mind shedding some light on that?
Bkilian spilled the beans already above. :)

Perhaps the firewarks will be dying down a bit, and I applaud efforts in that regard. I hope, this being the case, you'll be willing to address the above.

Thanks.
Already done per above.

I really appreciate the many instances in this thread where insiders have answered our questions and provided greater clarity.

That said, I'm getting tired of seeing this thread cluttered by fanboys' gotcha questions:
BINGO.

Amir - any ETA on Universal HD-DVD new title announcements?

Just a quick update on my previous observations regarding displays at CES. There is now a new king in front projectors, the JVC RS-1 (and its brother, HD-1). I will be retiring my Sony Ruby as soon as this poppy ships in Feb. More reflections here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9435822&&#post9435822. At $6K list, anyone who seriously wants to enjoy HD DVD/BD, needs to check this PJ out. As an FYI, JVC is majority owned by MEI/Panasonic so I am not saying this to support brother HD DVD company :) (although there appears to be strong rumors of MEI divesting from JVC).

I also had the opportunity to see the new Pioneer Plasma. They definitely seem to have made a breakthrough on black levels here. So much so that you can not tell the display is on even in a dark room! Alas, the unit shown was 768p, not 1080p. And I have my concerns about reflections in family room type applications (my scenario). But nice innovation on behalf of Pioneer.

OK, now it is "any exec" at "any studio"? And some "increased margin" as opposed to curing the hack?

But no, I do not beleive the companies who developed the security architecture for BD (i.e. those are who members of both AACS and BDA) believe that BD+ provides any additional level of protection against the type of attack reported.


You are confusing what Fox wants out of BD+, and what this hack is all about.

Regardless, if your entire point is that you heard something from someone saying BD+ is good, and you have no way of proving the same yourself nor do you have access to specifications which allow you to have an informed opinion, then we can leave the matter as is and let folks judge the value of such statement.

Amir,

We are one of the companies you are referring to and we do believe that BD+ provides additional protection. I suspect that one or two other studios feel this way as well. If you are arguing semantics over BD+ specifically providing protecting against the alleged AACS attack, then let's be clear. BD+ does not fix a broken encyrption system, it gives us additional ways to inconvenience hackers should that system be broken.

Amir,

We are one of the companies you are referring to and we do believe that BD+ provides additional protection. I suspect that one or two other studios feel this way as well. If you are arguing semantics over BD+ specifically providing protecting against the alleged AACS attack, then let's be clear. BD+ does not fix a broken encyrption system, it gives us additional ways to inconvenience hackers should that system be broken.
Let's hope only people who are inconvenienced with these extra measures of copy protection are hackers and not users :).

If you believe "inconveniencing" a hacker is going to mean "additional protection" against breaches, then all I can say is "best of luck to you." :) Any hacker who can break a well designed encryption system like AACS, will blow through BD+'s "inconvenience" layer during an afternoon break. And as I noted in the other threat, if someone hacks BD+, it can compromise the system without ever breaking AACS.

I don't know if you work in the content security area but if you are, your position here is surprising to me because Sony participated in evaluation and rejection of CRI proposal which BD+ is based on in both AACS and DVD Forum.

Putting the above aside, do you mind providing some data as you how you think BD+ can inconvenience the hacker and in what way it provides additional protection?

Also, can you comment on rumors that BD+ essential intellectual property is owned by Sony/MEI? And that your two companies control how that system will act should it be breached?

BINGO.

Amir - any ETA on Universal HD-DVD new title announcements?
Hey guys, give us a chance to cool off from CES before making new announcements :).

Sony replication will not handle pornographic product and I think many of other major replicators have similar policies. Nothing more than that.
Thanks for the quick answer.

Let's hope only people who are inconvenienced with these extra measures of copy protection are hackers and not users :).

If you believe "inconveniencing" a hacker is going to mean "additional protection" against breaches, then all I can say is "best of luck to you." :) Any hacker who can break a well designed encryption system like AACS, will blow through BD+'s "inconvenience" layer during an afternoon break. And as I noted in the other threat, if someone hacks BD+, it can compromise the system without ever breaking AACS.

I don't know if you work in the content security area but if you are, your position here is surprising to me because Sony participated in evaluation and rejection of CRI proposal which BD+ is based on in both AACS and DVD Forum.

Putting the above aside, do you mind providing some data as you how you think BD+ can inconvenience the hacker and in what way it provides additional protection?

Also, can you comment on rumors that BD+ essential intellectual property is owned by Sony/MEI? And that your two companies control how that system will act should it be breached?

I'm not sure who from Sony would have rejected BD+ in the DVD Forum. I didn't know that BD+ had ever been presented there, but that is because I don't follow the activities of that group anymore. If a representative of Sony Corp. did reject a proposal, it is quite possible it was for reasons other than the technical merits of BD+.

We have already had a limited discussion about how BD+ might be used weeks ago, I don't care to rehash it.

I'll have to do some research on your last question, but it runs counter to the basic tenants of BD licensing. The IP of participating companies can't be used to "control" anything in the way you describe.

If MS wants to reconsider becoming a BD founder I'm sure we would all appreciate their skills to make BD+ as effective as possible.

If MS wants to reconsider becoming a BD founder I'm sure we would all appreciate their skills to make BD+ as effective as possible.
Good come back :).

Amirm or any HD DVD insider,

If possible can you describe the process of a company obtaining player keys for HD DVD? If this is not possible because of NDA a comment to that effect would also be appreciated.

Also are you aware of the feature in the Xbox 360 to output WMA Pro? If possible could you comment on the possibility of this becoming a method to output HD DVD audio at a higher fidelity than Dolby Digital and DTS? Again, if this is not possible because of NDA a comment to that effect would also be appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

Amirm or any HD DVD insider,

If possible can you describe the process of a company obtaining player keys for HD DVD? If this is not possible because of NDA a comment to that effect would also be appreciated.
I am sorry but I don't quite understand the question. Do you mean keys for decrypting content? If so, they apply to AACS-LA which licenses them the copy protection technology. The AACS web site may have more info on this.

Also are you aware of the feature in the Xbox 360 to output WMA Pro? If possible could you comment on the possibility of this becoming a method to output HD DVD audio at a higher fidelity than Dolby Digital and DTS? Again, if this is not possible because of NDA a comment to that effect would also be appreciated.

Thanks in advance.
WMA Pro on 360 is for decode, not encode. What is needed here is to re-encode the original stream into WMA Pro.

How much interest is there in WMA Pro encode? I know all Pioneer receivers support it today but not sure if that is enough to have critical demand. We would be pleased to add it if there is sufficient demand.

Good come back :).

Any chance Microsoft could reconsider?

Any chance Microsoft could reconsider?
Sure. About the same time that Sony/MEI do. :D

Anybody care to comment on the Managed Copy questions I posted 3 pages back (I don't think I missed the response)?
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9430316&&#post9430316

How much interest is there in WMA Pro encode? I know all Pioneer receivers support it today but not sure if that is enough to have critical demand. We would be pleased to add it if there is sufficient demand.

I believe Denon is going to offer WMA decoding if I heard correctly in that Audioholics interview from CES.

-pd

It is still not in production. Please be patient...

paidgeek,

There were rumors of Spider-man I & II being announcements - are these still coming this spring or summer?

Managed Copy again.

The recent "release" by Sony that they are "probably" going to allow copying sometime this year has raised some questions again.

So Amir, Paidgeek:

Does AACS specify Managed Copy as Mandatory? ie does AACS specify MC or MMC?
MMC but with some caveats.

If MMC, does that mean every disc must support MC, or every player must support MC?
This is the million dollar question that among other things, has caused so much delay. We need to strike a balance between a strong requirement for MMC, while at the same time have an "out" for legitimate cases where the studio may not have such rights.

If MMC, are there any restrictions on what qualifies as the MMC, ie does it have to be full quality, or does a PSP version count?
You get to choose the level of quality when you make the copy.

Does Mandatory Managed Copy mean (provided a MC enabled player) I can make an MC of any disc?
Isn't this a repeat of the above question?

If MC is Mandatory per AACS, does that mean I can make an MC of any HD DVD?
Subject to carve out in the final agreement, yes.

If MC is Mandatory per AACS, does that mean I can make an MC of any BD?
My assumption is yes. Technically the process will be more complicated for BD as one needs the keys to both BD+ and AACS but from licensing point of view, they must be the same as AACS does not distinguish between BD and HD DVD.

What is the holdup on MC?
I mentioned one of the key reasons above. There are other arguments which are hard to settle which I can not disclose.

When will we see it?
I am hoping the license gets finished in Q1. After that, it is up to technology companies to build the software.

Are the studios fighting it?
Not in the classic sense of last year, when some didn't want to see MMC at all. Now it is just a matter of grinding out the details.

Has MC been deep-sixed?
Not at all. I would gain a full time security expert if it had been the case as the poor guy spends everyday of his life on this :).

Amir: Windows Home Server seems to be making a splash, there's talk of an AMD Live! server using WHS, will that support storage of MCs?
I can't pre-announce any features of our products.

Can either of you, or anybody give further details about MC? The silence on this front has been deafening. It's a must have feature for me to purchase discs on either format.
Sorry, the silence was not intentional. I just missed your questions :).

paidgeek,

Since there isn't a Fox representative here, I'll ask you this one and maybe you can pass it on. Any chance of "Borat" coming to BD day-and-date with the DVD? I'm sure there are many of us who would like to get that one. I can start a poll and find out how many are interested here if that might help. But then, are polls for titles likely to have any impact on what titles get done?

--Darin

How much interest is there in WMA Pro encode? I know all Pioneer receivers support it today but not sure if that is enough to have critical demand. We would be pleased to add it if there is sufficient demand.

I'm interested. I have 2 Pioneer receivers that decode WMA Pro and I notice Pioneer continues to support it in new receivers. I have no intention of upgrading to a receiver with HDMI. I will be satisfied with an external HDMI switch. My basic interest is in finding the best audio output for my Xbox 360 that is compatible with my Pioneer Elite receiver. I have not seen an answer to my previous questions of whether the sound quality would be superior if the various new HD sountracks were converted to DD, DTS or WMA Pro.
My only other option is 7.1 analog if that evers becomes a reality for the 360.

I'm interested. I have 2 Pioneer receivers that decode WMA Pro and I notice Pioneer continues to support it in new receivers. I have no intention of upgrading to a receiver with HDMI. I will be satisfied with an external HDMI switch. My basic interest is in finding the best audio output for my Xbox 360 that is compatible with my Pioneer Elite receiver.
Thanks for the feedback. Indeed at our meeting with Pioneer this CES, it seems that they are firmly committed to supporting WMA Pro across their entire line.

I have not seen an answer to my previous questions of whether the sound quality would be superior if the various new HD sountracks were converted to DD, DTS or WMA Pro.
My only other option is 7.1 analog if that evers becomes a reality for the 360.
Yes, it does make a difference. DD has the lowest data rate of the three so quality suffers the most at 640kbps (OK, I am oversimplifying a lot but bear with me :)) as opposed to 1.5 mbit/sec for DTS. WMA Pro is quite a bit more efficient than both and is able to provide great quality at even 750kbps.

Thanks for the feedback. Indeed at our meeting with Pioneer this CES, it seems that they are firmly committed to supporting WMA Pro across their entire line.
Then I think MS should support Pioneer and me by implementing it on the 360.
And the 360 does have it as an option in the setup menu although it apparently doesn't work.


Yes, it does make a difference. DD has the lowest data rate of the three so quality suffers the most at 640kbps (OK, I am oversimplifying a lot but bear with me :)) as opposed to 1.5 mbit/sec for DTS. WMA Pro is quite a bit more efficient than both and is able to provide great quality at even 750kbps.
That's the answer I thought I remembered from the old threads in the HTPC section and why I contiue to hope it becomes available on the 360. :) I use the WMA Pro option whenever possible on material played from my HTPC and feel it offers the best sound quallity.

paidgeek,

There were rumors of Spider-man I & II being announcements - are these still coming this spring or summer?

Since SM3 is coming this year, it is not out of the question...

Hi paidgeek! Do you think any possibility of delays for Spiderman 1 & 2 are due to relatively normal marketing issues or is perhaps possibly overdue caution due to the reaction to The Fifth Element, for example?

I, for one, have put off a DVD purchase of Spidey 2 as I have with most DVD's in the last 6-12 months since I knew I would eventually be going hi def...

Amir, Ben, Paidgeek, Talk and others:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9435733#post9435733

I'm hoping to have your endorsement in the above thread asking Warner for CJ's return to the community.

Amir, hopefully you can then pass it onto Warner and we can get him back here.

Thanks for reminding me. I've now done so. His posts were a big reason I've enjoyed this thread - I like reading his stuff more than my own :).

Any chance of "Borat" coming to BD day-and-date with the DVD?Oof! There are definitely some scenes (well, one, anyway) which I don't need to see in glorious 1080p high definition!

- Talk

didnt read the posts here before making the post. Digital Playground has defected from BD to HD DVD and has announced HD DVD titles.I'm not sure how this is related to the AACS hack on studio format support, unless you're implying that Digital Playground sees the possibility that their content could be ripped and redistributed as a good thing?

Okay, and looking at it that way I can understand. Still do you know of any official Warner email address that would allow Blu-ray supporters to discuss with Warner the issue of Dolby TrueHD on Blu-ray?After too much time navigating the almost completely Flash-based Warner websites, the closest thing I found was a customer service email form here (http://www2.warnerbros.com/web/main/help/customer_service.jsp).

Amir, Ben, Paidgeek, Talk and others:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9435733#post9435733

I'm hoping to have your endorsement in the above thread asking Warner for CJ's return to the community.

Amir, hopefully you can then pass it onto Warner and we can get him back here.

Thanks,
Robert.
Thanks Robert. I have been following the thread :). I will not post in it as to not make sure it is from people with no industry bias. But you have my assurance that I will forward to Warner management after a couple of days to make sure we get everyone signing in.

Thanks Robert. I have been following the thread :). I will not post in it as to not make sure it is from people with no industry bias. But you have my assurance that I will forward to Warner management after a couple of days to make sure we get everyone signing in.

Could Steve Nickerson help? I saw him at some sessions at CES and was impressed. In fact the two of you were on a panel at one of the sessions. The man came accross as someone with integrity, even in the cutthroat business such as movie production/distribution.

I also want to say that it was a pleasure meeting you at the 6:00 pm session on HD DVD on Tuesday...even though it made me an hour late for the AVS party! Kudos also to Kevin C. It's nice to meet people who actually seem to like their job!

My original question back on page 18 of this thread is below. Any insiders please feel free to comment.

Now that HD-DVD and Blu-Ray both have proper 1080P video playback on HTPC, we're looking at the audio side, and unfortunately the market seems completely bare of TrueHD and DTS-HD Master solutions for PC. The best we can hope for is Dolby Digital AC-3 5.1, Dolby Digital EX and DTS ES NEO 6.1

But really my main questions are these:

Has anyone from either side approached Sound Card vendors like Creative/Turtle Beach for a possible solution?

Or are they not even aware that HTPC enthusiasts/vendors would want these products?

Or can the current software packages such as Intervideo WinDVD8 and Cyberlink PowerDVD 7.1 pass via Coax/Optical Digtial Audio the signal to an external decoder for Dolby TrueHD/DTS-HD Master?

Any info would be appreciated from either side.

Question for HD-DVD/Blu-Ray Insiders,

I hope you may have an answer for this (It might have been asked already). Now that it's been a while with both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD on the PC market, and now that the HP HD-DVD drive has been released and we can see there is an official supported solution for HD-DVD on PC, does anyone know how the various HD-DVD playback solutions (Cyberlink, Intervideo, Windows Vista etc) offer Dolby TrueHD sound/DTS-HD master for PC output? Standard sound cards such as the Audigy 2 and Xi-Fi have 3 analog stereo plug connectors that feed 5.1 and sometimes 7.1, 8.1 sets of speakers or amplifiers. They also have optical and coaxial digital outputs as well. Is there a solution for getting proper full Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD master for PC? Can the Creative Xi-Fi handle this or do they have a solution in the works? Or are we going to have to settle for Dolby Digital+ remixed for DTS output or some other solution. Are there going to be any PC audio solutions to provide real Dolby TrueHD output? Like perhaps from Niveus? Is it possible under Windows XP or only Windows Vista?

Could Steve Nickerson help? I saw him at some sessions at CES and was impressed. In fact the two of you were on a panel at one of the sessions. The man came accross as someone with integrity, even in the cutthroat business such as movie production/distribution.
Steve is a nice guy and has broad industry background (worked at Toshiba for a long time). But the post house does not report up to him.

I also want to say that it was a pleasure meeting you at the 6:00 pm session on HD DVD on Tuesday...even though it made me an hour late for the AVS party! Kudos also to Kevin C. It's nice to meet people who actually seem to like their job!
Thank you much. We didn't do introductions so I couldn't tell who had come. And we had an abbreviated session.

Does this mean that Universal being HD-DVD only at this point may have some room to make slightly more efficient encodes? Or do they also adhere to the lowest common denominator? (I guess you might not be able to answer that last question but well, just in case).
They certainly can. I can't speak for Universal in particular, of course. But I can confirm there is content out there on HD DVD which use more B-frames than BD supports, and to good effect.

What is the effect of more B frames? Lower bitrate?

What is the effect of more B frames? Lower bitrate?
B-frames can be more efficient to encode for content with little or very simple motion (like scrolling credits).

Since no frame refers to a B-frame, they can also be useful to pad out a second of blank frames, so that the next P-frame can refer to the previous I or P frame which is the proper reference frame.

I am sorry but I don't quite understand the question. Do you mean keys for decrypting content? If so, they apply to AACS-LA which licenses them the copy protection technology. The AACS web site may have more info on this.
Yes, I'm trying to understand how the PKI infrastructure works for AACS without having to read the spec. :D

Who are the root CA's? Is there a HD DVD one and a BD one? What kind of certification required to obtain keys? Lets say that a SW player is compromised and it's player keys are revoked. This player would no longer be able to play any titles that are pressed after it is revoked. Can that SW player be fixed and re-certified to obtain new keys to be redistributed for use in an updated version of the player? Same for CE players with a revised FW.

WMA Pro on 360 is for decode, not encode. What is needed here is to re-encode the original stream into WMA Pro.

How much interest is there in WMA Pro encode? I know all Pioneer receivers support it today but not sure if that is enough to have critical demand. We would be pleased to add it if there is sufficient demand.
We all want the best PQ and AQ from our devices and since the 360 supports WMA Pro output, if WMA Pro is the best that a 360 can output then let those that can take advantage of it have the opportunity experience HD as "perfect" as possible. :D

Sorry, the silence was not intentional. I just missed your questions :).

Thanks for the responses, it's slighly reassuring to hear them.

If I might ask two more questions (and I expect you can't answer them but I've got to ask anyway):

What constitutes a "legitimate" out of the MMC requirement?

Do we have a ballpark price to expect MCs to be (eg $0-5, $5-10, $10-20....)

I also have a MMC related question:

Will new hardware chips be necessary to realize MMC playback in CE devices like e.g. media player boxes or Blu-Ray or HD DVD players? Or will the current Sigma Designs / Broadcom chips do, with just some software added on top?

I'm asking this question because if there are new chips needed, it may take another 1-3 years before we see CE devices that are capable of playing back MMC'ed movie files from network. That would be very sad, because I'd really like to make good use of MMC in 2007. I would hate if I had to wait until 2010. And no, HTPC is no go for me. I want a non PC hardware fan free CE device with reliable MMC playback.

Thanks!

Amir,

I have been format neutral since I heard about HD discs, I have a HDA1 and will buy a PS3 as soon as prices are reasonable for Blu-ray. But then, I thought the format war was going to be settled with dual format discs and player, not with one format overcoming another completely.

Now Universal's silence greatly disturbed me. I've invested quite a lot on HDDVD hardware and software (counting in Brazil's taxes, my player cost around US$1000 and each disc goes for around US$40), and I'm afraid Blu-ray will overwhelm HDDVD completely in a few months' time.

Plus, I was greatly disappointed not to see any new studios declaring format neutrality this January. After the rumors, I was half certain Disney would support HDDVD. I'll buy thir blurays anyway, mind you, but I still don't have a blu-ray player, so I have to wait longer...

So, my question for you is this:

Do you know anything, any news that can't be made public yet, a studio switchover, a batch of great title release annoucements, a new super-cheap player, anything at all, that would reverse/stall the news of impending doom for HDDVD? Anything to cheer up people who spent thousands of dollars to be early supporters of the format? Even if you can't tell us what it is, it would relieve me greatly to know there is SOMETHING around the corner that might counteract BluRay's great slate of announced titles.

Thank you very much for your informative posts here, they've been invaluable for techno-geeks like me.

Has there been any significant discussion recently on either the Blu-ray or the HD DVD side about region coding? If so, any discussion on the time frame for implementation?

Hi paidgeek! Do you think any possibility of delays for Spiderman 1 & 2 are due to relatively normal marketing issues or is perhaps possibly overdue caution due to the reaction to The Fifth Element, for example?

I, for one, have put off a DVD purchase of Spidey 2 as I have with most DVD's in the last 6-12 months since I knew I would eventually be going hi def...

The decision of when to release this and many other key titles is market timing. We have already put in place a rigorous review process for new and catalog HD masters, so you should expect to see clean masters from our studio.

The decision of when to release this and many other key titles is market timing. We have already put in place a rigorous review process for new and catalog HD masters, so you should expect to see clean masters from our studio.

Thank the Makers for that!! Now if you'd like to offer a swap out for a new "Superbit-BD" version of TFE when that comes out, that'd be lovely, appreciated, and a slick PR move.

:D

I was also interested to find out that Casino Royale and Open Season are going to be AVC -- great news there! Can you say at this time if the rest of the Bond films will be released as AVC BDs as well, at some point in the future? Everyone has been raving abou their new releases on DVD but I'm holding off for the future BD boxed set.

Any hints on when that may arrive?

Thanks again!

-John

I also have a MMC related question: Will new hardware chips be necessary to realize MMC playback in CE devices like e.g. media player boxes or Blu-Ray or HD DVD players? Or will the current Sigma Designs / Broadcom chips do, with just some software added on top?For the Sigma and Broadcom chips in the Blu-ray and HD DVD players, it is just software. This is similarly demonstrated by Pioneer supporting PlaysForSure on their player, and I really hope things like this, MC playback, and MCX become standard player features soon. The SoCs from Sigma and Broadcom are 95% software with a little hardware acceleration thrown in. :)

What constitutes a "legitimate" out of the MMC requirement?
As I mentioned, it would be the case of the content owner not having the rights to give you the managed copy. An example Warner used on the panel at CES was if a talent/producer/etc. considers managed copy video on demand as opposed to optical distribution and have a carve out in their contract for the former. Or very old content which unclear contract rights with no way to re-negotiated it.

Do we have a ballpark price to expect MCs to be (eg $0-5, $5-10, $10-20....)
The price will be proportional to how paranoid a studio is about MMC :). Seriously, there are some studios who love the new business model that MMC brings to them and might just include the first copy in the price of the disc. Others may be so paranoid as to use the price as a deterrent to usage. Hopefully market forces will cause the latter to follow the former.

I also have a MMC related question:

Will new hardware chips be necessary to realize MMC playback in CE devices like e.g. media player boxes or Blu-Ray or HD DVD players? Or will the current Sigma Designs / Broadcom chips do, with just some software added on top?
All the current decoders are able to do the most complex part: decode the video. However, they may not have the support for the DRM system which will wrap the managed copy. However, all the cores have standard CPUs in them which can be upgraded to handle the DRM, assuming there is a port available.

I'm asking this question because if there are new chips needed, it may take another 1-3 years before we see CE devices that are capable of playing back MMC'ed movie files from network. That would be very sad, because I'd really like to make good use of MMC in 2007. I would hate if I had to wait until 2010. And no, HTPC is no go for me. I want a non PC hardware fan free CE device with reliable MMC playback.

Thanks!
I don't think we will have to wait for new silicon. But we do have to wait for someone to build the complete system including the server software, networking and playback. So MMC won't happen on the first day AACS grants a license but not as bad as waiting for another generation of silicon either.

Amir or benwaggoner,

A couple of weeks ago people complained about how DD+ tracks sounded when played on the 360 add-on. Some just thought the volume was lower and others said it sounded like some sort of dynamic range compression was taking place. You (amir) said in a post that your team was investigating these reports and it was then assumed by a lot of posters in the HD DVD player forum that a fix will be included in the update that will add DTS output. Maybe I have missed a post with all the details, not hard to do here especially during the holidays, so I wonder if either one of you could clarify:

Did you confirm that there is a problem with DD+ audio tracks on the 360 add-on?

If you did, will it be fixed by the update that adds DTS output?



Amir or benwaggoner,

Any word on this yet from the team?

Thanks,
Patrik

Thank you Keith and Amir for your replies!

Three additional questions about MC:

(1) Would it be legal for me to buy a HD-DVD or Blu-Ray disc, make a MC to my network storage and then sell the disc on Ebay? Would I legally be allowed to keep the MC in this case in my network storage forever?

(2) What about HD-DVD or Blu-Ray discs from e.g. Netflix? Will rented discs allow MCs? If there's one free MC per disc with some studios, the first renter gets a MC for free then as a surprise present? :)

(3) Does MC contain a way to make a copy stop working after a specific amount of time, or after the copy has been watched a specific number of times?

^^
QUESTION: along those lines will MC require the original disc available at a specific point of time (ie. could you put your discs in storage and not be expected to pull them out in the future when viewing)???

Amir,

I have been format neutral since I heard about HD discs, I have a HDA1 and will buy a PS3 as soon as prices are reasonable for Blu-ray. But then, I thought the format war was going to be settled with dual format discs and player, not with one format overcoming another completely.
We are certainly headed toward both formats living next to each other.

Now Universal's silence greatly disturbed me. I've invested quite a lot on HDDVD hardware and software (counting in Brazil's taxes, my player cost around US$1000 and each disc goes for around US$40), and I'm afraid Blu-ray will overwhelm HDDVD completely in a few months' time.
Sorry, I really don't understand this angst about Universal. Universal could not shout any louder in support of HD DVD at CES. They are the chairman of the US HD DVD group and gave the keynote address at CES. They have committed strongly to releasing their titles for this year, including day and date for new movies yet to even come to theaters. More importantly, you did not hear a peep from them going to BD route, despite the confidence of BD group that they are doing well. Another CES came and went without them going near BDA.

Universal is also committed to a lot of innovations in the area of interactivity with HDi as we demonstrated at CES. Given the really bad shape of same technology in BDA products, their preference for HD DVD could not be more clear and obvious.

Net, net, you should see Universal more committed to HD DVD, than any BD studio is to BDA. They have shown this in the past, and will continue to do so in the future with stellar products, using all the advanced features of HD DVD.

It is true that we don’t pound our chest about the future as much as the BDA does. We prefer to show progress with real action mostly. So what you are seeing is the more conservative approach. But please don’t mistake that with lack of commitment to HD DVD. We are all very, very committed to success of HD DVD and will do everything in our power to advance the format.

Plus, I was greatly disappointed not to see any new studios declaring format neutrality this January. After the rumors, I was half certain Disney would support HDDVD. I'll buy thir blurays anyway, mind you, but I still don't have a blu-ray player, so I have to wait longer...
Everything takes time. One has to have patience. Remember last CES where BDA declared HD DVD dead and everyone believed them? Look at where we are now, with a raft of new CE company announcements which they said was impossible for us to get. We have 40 content studios worldwide distributing HD DVD. We have way more titles than BDA once you include these international titles. And that trend is going to continue with doubling the number of titles to some 600 by the end of this year.

And then we had LG breaking the ice by going from BD exclusive to not only supporting HD DVD, but saying great things about how well HD DVD works at CES. This is going to have strong impact on the attitude of BD-exclusive companies. Trust me on this. A lot of people changed their mind at CES over this on the other side of the fence given the large splash LG made. It will become very hard for BD CE companies to market BD-only products retailing for high prices. Very hard.

Do you know anything, any news that can't be made public yet, a studio switchover, a batch of great title release annoucements, a new super-cheap player, anything at all, that would reverse/stall the news of impending doom for HDDVD?
Impending doom? Where do people get this? Let’s look at the situation at CES. BDA companies showed no new companies adopting BD format. None. All they had for news, is what they were always supposed to have, which is their studios not dragging their feet to support their format. That was it. No new lower cost players. No follow on products. No BD-Live products. No demonstration of advancements in their format. Nothing.

In contrast, HD DVD showed incredible progress. We have new CE partners from likes of Chinese/Taiwanese (who will make the low cost products you ask about) and Onkyo, to companies with stellar reputation like Meridian. More importantly, at CES one gets to meet with a ton of CE companies. And I can tell you that all of this news moved HD DVD significantly forward in their support behind the scenes. Obviously, in front of our competitors here I am not going to mention specifics. But you can count us announcing new CE partners this year.

The above is important as it starts to break down the last two arguments that BDA says was in their favor: CE companies and content. The former is now proven to be false and indeed, BDA no longer trumpet that at CES. The content side will also come. It is inevitable that content companies will follow where the sockets and positive momentum are. They did so when DVD came and they were on Divx bandwagon. They will do so again.

Remember, that alliances can change overnight. An executive could choose to support the other format with one decision and have titles in the market next month. But you can not solve the manufacturing and other difficulties of BD overnight. HD DVD is real, can produce the experience that people want and will gain the support of companies as it continues its forward progress.

Anything to cheer up people who spent thousands of dollars to be early supporters of the format? Even if you can't tell us what it is, it would relieve me greatly to know there is SOMETHING around the corner that might counteract BluRay's great slate of announced titles.
Here is what I can tell you. There are 16,000 DVD titles from what I recall. Compared to that, neither BD nor HD DVD holds a candle. So all we are talking about for this year is having a solid library so that you can enjoy your chose format.

Fact is that HD DVD will supply you with considerable choices in content with great attention to quality, state-of-the-art in interactivity and menu design, and usage of advanced scenarios such as digital downloads. HD DVD will present you with the broadest set of content from alternative to independent and locally produced content such as Bandai animations. Its ease of replication is the power behind this as it allows anyone anywhere in the world to get production capacity including without having to call Sony and such.

HD DVD is also the only global HD format with no region coding. So you can continue to enjoy CE and content from anywhere in the world, with no worries about borders. And with the advent of internet, you can purchase them with relative ease. This is also driving content adoption. When I was in UK, many had imported their players and content from US.

Per note before, HD DVD is also bringing the widest range of products on the playback to the market. This includes super low cost far-east players which retailers can private brand, to reference quality products from likes of Meridian to extract that last bit of quality out of HD DVD and other formats the device plays such as CDs, while supporting the widest set of features. And of course, everything in between from Toshiba including 1080p/24fps support. With our significant partnership with Broadcom to provide a nice platform for building HD DVD players quickly and efficiently, you can expect to see companies able to enter HD DVD without a huge outlay of R&D dollars which few can afford, given how complex these formats are.

And of course, we have the key advantage of bringing value to our customers. HD DVD option for Xbox 360 brings an unmatched level of value at just $199. And with over 10M and counting 360 machines out there and strong, strong demand for the HD DVD add-on, we are going to continue to bring a ton of people into HD DVD fold which the other guys simply can not match. And Toshiba is thundering away with fast product cycles with great pricing and frequent firmware updates to keep them fresh. Nothing in BDA comes close to matching any of this offering.

Last but not least, as you hopefully know, you are dealing with a company behind HD DVD who at its heart, is made up of people like you. With likes of Stacey Spears, Kevin Collins, Ben, etc., you know that we love this technology and care to deliver the utmost A/V experience. (We are not a competitor to CE companies which makes it so much easier for them to partner with us.) There is a reason we have Meridian on board and the other guys do not have. Yes, this is also a business for us as it is for BD companies. But it goes way past that. Our passion shows in our execution and the support that we are gaining from many companies who like to deal with people who appreciate their art and products.

Thank you very much for your informative posts here, they've been invaluable for techno-geeks like me.
Thank you so much. We really appreciate the people here who have purchased and supported us in this journey. HD DVD would be nowhere without it. But together, we are strong and headed on a very positive trajectory to establish HD DVD as both a premier HD optical format, but also one that provides great value for everyday person.

Sorry about the rant btw :). There was a lot of pent up passion here wanting to get out. :D

Has there been any significant discussion recently on either the Blu-ray or the HD DVD side about region coding? If so, any discussion on the time frame for implementation?
HD DVD region coding proposals have lost steam. At this point, the odds of them getting into the standard is very low. Of course, even if it does pass, it has no impact on current products which are region free.

BD on the other hand, mandates region coding and there are discs already region restricted.

Do you know anything, any news that can't be made public yet, a studio switchover, a batch of great title release annoucements, a new super-cheap player, anything at all, that would reverse/stall the news of impending doom for HDDVD? Anything to cheer up people who spent thousands of dollars to be early supporters of the format? Even if you can't tell us what it is, it would relieve me greatly to know there is SOMETHING around the corner that might counteract BluRay's great slate of announced titles.

Obvoiusly stuff that can't be made public yet can't be made public yet :).

But "impending doom" is far, far overstated. Lots of titles are coming, a bunch of new full-spec players have been launched. There's the new reference platform combining the Broadcom SOC and Windows CE that'll open up manufacturitng to many more companies. And many more companies announced they'll be building HD DVD players.

And content providers certainly have noticed how many fewer PS3s and other players there are in the market than they expected when they agreed to support BD.

I'm feeling more bullish than ever myself.

And yes, there's plenty of good news for HD DVD on the way we can't share yet.

(1) Would it be legal for me to buy a HD-DVD or Blu-Ray disc, make a MC to my network storage and then sell the disc on Ebay? Would I legally be allowed to keep the MC in this case in my network storage forever?
You can do that. But the disc you sell may no longer have managed copy priviledge (subject to fraud detection by the studio MC service) and as such, its value would be less than a "virgin" disc still in its wrapper.

(2) What about HD-DVD or Blu-Ray discs from e.g. Netflix? Will rented discs allow MCs? If there's one free MC per disc with some studios, the first renter gets a MC for free then as a surprise present? :)
In US, studios are barred from discremenating against rental use versus purchase. That is, Netflix is free to purchase the same discs others do, and have them come with similar rights. Having said this, there are discussions in AACS about rental but I am not up to speed on them. So there may be something here I don't know. So in theory, you are right that the first renter gets more than others do.

(3) Does MC contain a way to make a copy stop working after a specific amount of time, or after the copy has been watched a specific number of times?
The copy must be permanent. So it can not expire. Studios however, can provide you other options above and beyond which could expire, etc. But the standad offer can not be temporary or have count limits.

We just received a new version of firmware for testing so I cannot say to what extent the performance on these titles will improve. I'll find out shortly and let you know.Thanks. However it looks like the BDP-S1 firmware update is now generally available for download (see thread in BD Players forum). Do you have a full release notes available for the firmware so we can see everything that got fixed? This firmware update is a move in the right direction for Sony, increases confidence in the player, and would seem to bring it in line with the Pioneer in terms of playability of discs.

Howdy HD DVD insiders:

I was wondering if any of you got a sense as to how committed the studios were with regards to HD DVD/DVD combo discs.

Paramount is still a no-show and Warner seems to have slowed somewhat. I would venture that TotalHD discs are going to be a priority for Warner over HD DVD/DVD combo discs, but any word on how much studios will continue to use them?


p.s. they are still my preferred disc choice as they are convenient for use other family and lending out, while at the same time saving me the cost of buying both and helping cut down on shelf space... hopefully these aren't going away any time soon...

[deleted]

Question: Hitatchi has announced that they have developed a 4 layer 200 GB Blu-ray disc that is playable on current players after a firmware upgrade. Do you feel that HD DVD could do the same for TL-51? Offer a firmware upgrade to make all players compliant?
Is the Hitachi proposal for ROM movie distribution? I have only seen >50 gigabyte proposals for recordable, not ROM. But perhaps I missed it. If you give me a link, I will read and comment.

Howdy HD DVD insiders:

I was wondering if any of you got a sense as to how committed the studios were with regards to HD DVD/DVD combo discs.
I can't give you concrete data but Universal did say they like to use combo discs.

Paramount is still a no-show and Warner seems to have slowed somewhat. I would venture that TotalHD discs are going to be a priority for Warner over HD DVD/DVD combo discs, but any word on how much studios will continue to use them?
I would say that it is probably going to take a while until THD discs come out. Until then, I expect HD DVD studios to use combo discs on new titles as opposed to library.

Amir,
Is there any plan in place to lower the price of combo discs so that they are more in line with typical HD DVD's? In addition, has any studio thought about using a combo disc only (meaning not having separate HD DVD and DVD versions selling in stores)? Is that feasible or do you think that would be a bad idea?

As always thanks for the information.

Amir - regarding COMBO discs, you previously stated like the rest of us the prices were TOO high. Have you had any further conversations about that or is this just a case of studios taking liberties with early adopters knowing they'll pay the extra $$$? thanks!

edit - i see a similar Q was just posted LOL.

Yes, I keep giving the feedback to studios about combo pricing. Hopefully they listen :).

To HD DVD/Blu-ray insiders, I asked a while ago about these but didn't see any response. Can someone take a stab?

Question to HD DVD insiders:

Is there a target date for Twin Format (hybrid discs with both HD DVD and DVD on one side) disc releases in the US, or is Combo going to be the only option major studios use?


Question to Blu-ray insiders:

Is there a time-frame for when hybrid DVD/Blu-ray discs will be released? Andy Parsons has mentioned that they would be out to combat the COMBO discs from the HD DVD group and I believe Disney was touting them as a key feature so kids could play them in their bedroom, but there hasn't been much news lately...


Thanks

I don't have any information on single sided combo disc adoption in HD DVD. I expect to see some but I just have nothing concrete to report.

Impending doom? Where do people get this?
I think the situation is this: You as an insider have more information than every normal home theater freak posting on these forums. It's natural that your view is different. You seem to have taken a lot of positive things from CES. But I think you're not seeing things from the perspective of an end user.

All we end users have is some press releases for HD DVD and some for Blu-Ray. It is great that HD DVD got new CE support and it's really a key point for HD DVD. But if you try to see the situation from the perspective of those forum people who own a HD DVD player, things are different: These people already HAVE a player, they don't need a new one! So added CE support doesn't help them at all. What HD DVD owners want/need is new content. The "impending doom" is a feeling that I see spread in many threads. I think it's caused by 3 things:

(1) Blu-Ray software sales have increased very much, they might even be ahead of HD DVD software sales now. This creates the fear that HD DVD is losing and that BD studios now think: "Why going neutral, Blu-Ray is just overtaking HD DVD right now!"

(2) There were rumours that Lionsgate and/or Disney would go neutral at CES. This didn't happen. As a result there's some frustration and the fear that the trend is going away from HD DVD.

(3) If you look at the announced titles at highdefdigest, theres LOTS and LOTS more content announced for Blu-Ray. So people are wondering whether HD DVD content is slowing down. It seems so, at least if you look at the announcements, only. Also there haven't been many new new high profile titles available for (pre)order for HD DVD recently.

Generally I see many people adding a Blu-Ray player to their setup now, because they don't want to miss on the Blu-Ray movies. Some people even replace their HD DVD library with Blu-Ray because they think that HD DVD is losing the war - based on the 3 things noted above.

You say that Universal has been vocal on CES about supporting HD DVD. But this is not what we end users see. The only thing we see is content announcements. And there Blu-Ray has greatly outdone HD DVD at CES.

Anyway, now here is my question: Wouldn't it make sense for Universal, Weinstein etc to announce titles a bit more ahead in time to counter all the Blu-Ray software announcements? Just to take away some fear from HD DVD owners?

Good post Madshi and thanks for the feedback :). Just two points then:

1. Getting more CE support is key to getting more studio support. They need to see that more companies are adopting HD DVD and positive trend there.

2. I have given that feedback to Universal.

[deleted]


Is the Hitachi proposal for ROM movie distribution? I have only seen >50 gigabyte proposals for recordable, not ROM. But perhaps I missed it. If you give me a link, I will read and comment.

Its a Japanese article, so I can only go off of another persons translation:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=785650

http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/article/NEWS/20070110/126242/

I don't think we will have to wait for new silicon. But we do have to wait for someone to build the complete system including the server software, networking and playback. So MMC won't happen on the first day AACS grants a license but not as bad as waiting for another generation of silicon either.

On a related question, is the only thing holding up MMC at the moment, the licensing and player/server software?

Ie, once AACS "grants a license" and the hardware/software appears to support MC, will it be retroactive to current discs or will we have to repurchase (or wait to purchase) MMC "enabled" discs?

Talk, I don't know if you have the answers to these questions but I figure I'll give it a shot-

When playing the extras on The Descent, I noticed that I can't rewind or fast forward. I also can't exit to the main menu or bring up the pop-up menu during playback of the extra features. Do you know why this is? Does it have anything to do with BD-J? FYI, I am using the PS3 for BD playback.

BTW, thank you for your presence here on the forum. It is much appreciated.

will we have to repurchase (or wait to purchase) MMC "enabled" discs?

I have the same question to insiders. My understanding is that the disc already has the BCA and ID required by MMC. Also, the menu could also be updated later to reflect the MMC/MC option.

A question for both formats. To me at least, the rate of movies coming out seems slow. What is holding things up?

1) The studios taking time to author titles, extra features, etc.

2) A backlog of titles at the replication plants

3) Studios just waiting for a greater installed base before releasing more titles

Sorry, I really don't understand this angst about Universal. Universal could not shout any louder in support of HD DVD at CES. They are the chairman of the US HD DVD group and gave the keynote address at CES. They have committed strongly to releasing their titles for this year, including day and date for new movies yet to even come to theaters. More importantly, you did not hear a peep from them going to BD route, despite the confidence of BD group that they are doing well. Another CES came and went without them going near BDA.

Universal is also committed to a lot of innovations in the area of interactivity with HDi as we demonstrated at CES. Given the really bad shape of same technology in BDA products, their preference for HD DVD could not be more clear and obvious.

Net, net, you should see Universal more committed to HD DVD, than any BD studio is to BDA. They have shown this in the past, and will continue to do so in the future with stellar products, using all the advanced features of HD DVD.



Angst about Universal? How about announcing some actual titles? You are so focused on hardware, that you forget the whole point-we want to watch movies. Where are the new titles? I've bought maybe one HD DVD in the last month or so. No new discs for Christmas-yeah, that felt real good. I may buy 1 more in the next few months. If Universal is that committed to HD DVD, why don't they put out more movies?
Where is the doom and gloom coming from? Possibly from the fact that I'm using my A1 as a DVD player, not an HD DVD player.
Sorry if my tone seems negative.
J

And of course, everything in between from Toshiba including 1080p/24fps support.Toshiba players don't include 1080p24 support right now, so when should people expect it for the XA2?

--Darin

On a related question, is the only thing holding up MMC at the moment, the licensing and player/server software?
Licensing currently. But once that is out of the way, then product development cycle :).

Ie, once AACS "grants a license" and the hardware/software appears to support MC, will it be retroactive to current discs or will we have to repurchase (or wait to purchase) MMC "enabled" discs?
There is no obligation under the interim license for content owners to have marked their content for MMC. However, I am pleased to see that studios like Warner have already marked their content appropriately (someone dug up the URLs on their discs for managed copy) even though they don't have to.

Sony replication will not handle pornographic product and I think many of other major replicators have similar policies. Nothing more than that.

paidgeek, is the limit for what Sony will handle 'pornography', or is it broader, extending to anything that contains explicit sexual content? Don May Jr's post at Mobius last April relating that Sony refused to handle Thriller and The Image as Blu-ray, for instance, would seem to indicate that the ban is a good deal broader than just pornography? And for that matter why does Sony handle Japanese pornography on Blu-ray? Is this just a Sony US policy?

Angst about Universal? How about announcing some actual titles? You are so focused on hardware, that you forget the whole point-we want to watch movies.
I appreciate the point. But CES is Consume Electronics Show. That is the place one traditionally announces hardware support. This is one of the reasons you see so many announcements there about hardware.

But still, we announced 600 titles by year end. Matrix and LOTR series are coming to HD DVD. Star Trek series is coming to HD DVD. Harry Potter series (all the episodes) are coming to HD DVD. That should send the approrpriate message regarding strong title support to back the hardware.

Where are the new titles? I've bought maybe one HD DVD in the last month or so. No new discs for Christmas-yeah, that felt real good. I may buy 1 more in the next few months. If Universal is that committed to HD DVD, why don't they put out more movies?
The way the business worked was that a lot of titles were generated for Q4. Now people are making plans for the next cycle.

Where is the doom and gloom coming from? Possibly from the fact that I'm using my A1 as a DVD player, not an HD DVD player.
Sorry if my tone seems negative.
J
No, I appreciate the feedback and it is something we have shared with the studios. Just realize that around Christmas, folks go on vacation and such. So we are just getting into next wave of title generation.

But still, we announced 600 titles by year end. Matrix and LOTR series are coming to HD DVD. Star Trek series is coming to HD DVD. Harry Potter series (all the episodes) are coming to HD DVD. That should send the approrpriate message regarding strong title support to back the hardware.


I have heard the 300 number a few places but not the 600 yet. How many of these would be exclusive to HD-DVD and unavailable on Blu-ray?

But still, we announced 600 titles by year end. Matrix and LOTR series are coming to HD DVD. Star Trek series is coming to HD DVD. Harry Potter series (all the episodes) are coming to HD DVD.
How many HD DVD exclusives will there be?

The way the business worked was that a lot of titles were generated for Q4. Now people are making plans for the next cycle.
So we have to wait until Q4 to see the bulk of the titles?

Where are the Universal movies?
J

I have heard the 300 number a few places but not the 600 yet. How many of these would be exclusive to HD-DVD and unavailable on Blu-ray?

The CES announcement I saw were 300 US titles for a total of 600 worldwide in 2007. I saw only 11 being US exclusive, but I'm not sure where that number came from, doesn't fit properly with what Amir said regarding Universal.

B-frames can be more efficient to encode for content with little or very simple motion (like scrolling credits).

Since no frame refers to a B-frame, they can also be useful to pad out a second of blank frames, so that the next P-frame can refer to the previous I or P frame which is the proper reference frame.Thanks. You example makes it easier to understand how this helps.

What would be the reason to restrict the number of B-frames? Trick play? Buffer size? I thought both formats were not very different in these things, but apparently they are.

And then we had LG breaking the ice by going from BD exclusive to not only supporting HD DVD, but saying great things about how well HD DVD works at CES. This is going to have strong impact on the attitude of BD-exclusive companies.
Out of curiosity, are the rumors about MS and/or DVD forum suing LG or attempting to prevent their dual player from going to production true? That is because of crippled HD DVD support.

That was it. No new lower cost players. No follow on products. No BD-Live products. No demonstration of advancements in their format. Nothing.
As far s I am concerned second gen Samsung @ 799 does qualify as new product and lower cost product as well, no?
Format advancements, true I didn't see any advancements to BD format itself, but one of the main complaints from HD DVD camp always was that BD was overkill and no one really needed neither 50gb storage nor 50mbps transfer rates. So, what should BDA be improving?

And what were improvements on HD DVD format besides TL disc announcement? If we compare to BD that particular improvement, then what we have is 1 gb more storage compared to DL BD, at the cost of the extra layer and potentially not backwards compatible?

I was planing on XA2 this month and now I'm stuck, because most likely if TL HD DVD gets approved this fall my player won't play it, or am I wrong on that assumption?

In contrast, HD DVD showed incredible progress. We have new CE partners from likes of Chinese/Taiwanese (who will make the low cost products you ask about) and Onkyo, to companies with stellar reputation like Meridian.
Cheap players are of course welcome. Especially if they have quality too :) As for the Meridian, didn't they announce that they have no plans for making HD DVD player?

Roger Dressler has commented on the issue also. I will quote it here (in his absence)

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9221973#post9221973

Other discussions of the issue are in the same thread.

b2b

Does the BD format's implementation of Dolby Lossless require that there be a Dolby Digital (AC-3) substream AND a MLP substream; i.e., essentially two audio tracks...there is no "core" element but instead a separate DD (AC-3) encode that a non-MLP player would use?

I understand that on both formats (BD and HD DVD), DD+ contains a "core" or independent stream AND an extension or dependent stream so that even legacy players that can't decode the full DD+ will at least decode the core or independent stream.

So in Warner's case, to put DD-THD on BD they would have needed to put on the disc DD+, DD AND MLP...they couldn't use the "core" from the DD+ for the DD-THD?

Is this "a" reason it was left off of the BD version...they would have had to put another DD track on? And in this case, it would seem that they should already have the DD encode from the DD+ pieces...the bitrate of the DD stream wouldn't seem like much of a penalty either unless the "core" is at the full 1.5 rate?

\What would be the reason to restrict the number of B-frames? Trick play? Buffer size? I thought both formats were not very different in these things, but apparently not.
I honestly don't know. B-frames are more useful in our VC-1 implementation that someone used to MPEG-2 for DVD might have expected.

I honestly don't know. B-frames are more useful in our VC-1 implementation that someone used to MPEG-2 for DVD might have expected.Thanks. Amir's comment about BDA not contacting MS regarding this makes sense now.

Paidgeek,

Could you please provide your expert comments in this thread?: Something MPEG2 has that VC1 does not (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=781777&page=1&pp=30)

This is about blocking artifacts in MPEG2 on BD movies (all of them, apparently).

Amir and Ben have already contributed [thanks Amir/Ben]. If we had CJPlay here, that would have made it A, B, C! :)

Out of curiosity, are the rumors about MS and/or DVD forum suing LG or attempting to prevent their dual player from going to production true? That is because of crippled HD DVD support.
No, forum members are not going to sue LG. But DVD Forum owns the HD DVD logo and should someone use it without compliance, it would be that org (well, the logo licensing agency) that would go after them. As far as I know however, LG is not going to use the logo so I don't think any of this matters.

As far s I am concerned second gen Samsung @ 799 does qualify as new product and lower cost product as well, no?
Yes, that one does although I did not see any availability info. Did I miss that?

Format advancements, true I didn't see any advancements to BD format itself, but one of the main complaints from HD DVD camp always was that BD was overkill and no one really needed neither 50gb storage nor 50mbps transfer rates. So, what should BDA be improving?
We showed how shipping machines can download additional content for shipping titles where the HDi menu dynamically gets updated. We showed that you could share bookmarks for your favorite movies with your friends through network services. We announced titles such as Freedom series by Bandai which will use these features. Yet no such demonstrations where shown by BD companies. Indeed, there were no BD-Live announcements and without it and broad networking support in their players, they can’t go there. These are format advancements that I was talking about.

And what were improvements on HD DVD format besides TL disc announcement?
Please see above.

If we compare to BD that particular improvement, then what we have is 1 gb more storage compared to DL BD, at the cost of the extra layer and potentially not backwards compatible?
I never mentioned TL-51 in my post. And have been very frank about it not being an advantage one way or the other right now. HD DVD-30 has plenty of capacity for movies and no one is waiting for TL-51.

I was planing on XA2 this month and now I'm stuck, because most likely if TL HD DVD gets approved this fall my player won't play it, or am I wrong on that assumption?
I would buy XA2 on the basis that it plays all the wonderful HD DVD content with full set of capabilities. Until you see announcements of studios targeting TL-51 and having it not be compatible with your machine, I would not have any worry whatsoever. TL-51 is a technology announcement by Toshiba. And that is all for now.

Cheap players are of course welcome. Especially if they have quality too :) As for the Meridian, didn't they announce that they have no plans for making HD DVD player?
That was a mistake. The person was not notified about their plans. They clarified this nicely yesterday, saying they are 100% behind HD DVD now and plan to build reference quality players: http://media.meridian-audio.com/press/CES07-presskit/meridian-hddvd-ces07.pdf

Amir,

The link doesn't work.

Amir,

The link doesn't work.

Yeah the link is off - I was able to go back to the main URL, click on "press" and find the pdf. Nice! Looks like the high end is covered for HD DVD nicely here.