shore,
Could you answer the following questions?

- Did BD hybrid process fail to materialize, due to its 0.1mm structure?
- Did single sided BD/DVD hybrid disc failed to materialize?
- Is it possible to manufacture back-to-back BD/DVD combo disc if Total HD is possible?
Sorry, can't answer those questions.

Remember too that there is often a big difference between 'possible' and 'cost effective'. I have seen many disc technologies (not Blu-ray related BTW) that were possible but not probable.

Sorry, can't answer those questions.

Remember too that there is often a big difference between 'possible' and 'cost effective'. I have seen many disc technologies (not Blu-ray related BTW) that were possible but not probable.Thank you for your reply.

Another question: do you think Total HD is 'cost effective' solution?
From nonprofessional view point, I don't see any difficulty for manufacturing back-to-back BD/DVD combo disc if Total HD is cost effective (though I read some info that Total HD's yield is around 10%). If the yield ratio of BD25 is high enough (>80%), maybe it's easier than HD DVD30/DVD9 combo disc (Cinram said before that it was said around 75%).

There is plenty of 25p content in Europe so I assume by above you mean US.

The original post was regarding television network originated content and I have not heard of any of this being produced in progressive in Europe.

Sorry Paidgeek, I don't want to turn this into a "when is this coming out" thread. However, if you could just answer me this for a less "high profile" release. Is Sony planning Starship Troopers and Bad Boys soon? Starship troopers already has a planned release in japan by the distributiing studio there so just wondered.

Your replies are very much appreciated.

Sorry, I have not seen these in production yet. I have seen the master for Starship Troopers though. Sharp, grainy and very tough to encode. Expect a BD50 on that one.

Paidgeek....When is there going to be a DTS-MA firmware upgrade for the PS3..this will happen right.

I can't speak for Sony Computer regarding PS3 updates, but expect some good things to come.

I can't speak for Sony Computer regarding PS3 updates, but expect some good things to come.

Hi PaidGeek,

For Blu-Ray music content, is your group involved in authoring/compiling the discs or does it fall under Sony-BMG/Sony Classical groups? I was a big fan of SACD, and Sony Classical's CDs in general, so I look forward to music on Blu-Ray [or other hi-rez format in HD-DVD, for that matter].

TIA.

The black levels are correct in the files, I'm sure (nominal black at 16). I think what he's talking about is how Y' and RGB luma levels are translated in the hardware. I'll try to find out more about what's going on there.

I've only watched 720p HD content on my Xbox, and it does generally look excellent. I wish everything would be released on HD on the Xbox (if you guys could snag Heroes Season 1 in HD for download, I think you would make a ton of $$$).

I just referenced the article because it did seem to indicate the color space was being altered. I thought that with SD material, maybe some more obvious visualizations caused by the alterations could be occurring (on HD material it took a pretty detailed analysis to find the difference).

Any chance of Live snagging Heroes? I know you have the show following Heroes (Studio 60).

Amir,

Audio in Vista (http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=5821)

This is where things become different for hardware DSP manufacturers. Hardware DSP equipped sound cards require a separate driver for the hardware DSP features itself. Windows Vista treats the hardware DSP as an independent device, separate from basic audio output functionality.

It is a bit of a touchy subject, but UAA supports audio content protection schemes. This should allow PC systems to playback protected audio content such as DVD Audio discs. Unfortunately, Realtek is the only provider of hardware content protected high definition audio solutions.

Basic driver aside, the default UAA driver provides a few features not found in drivers released by audio device and codec manufacturers. New features in the UAA driver include bass management, speaker fill, automatic room correction, virtual surround sound, phantom surround, headphone virtualization, loudness equalization and support for microphone arrays.

Bass management is unavailable with the basic Windows Vista UAA driver but the option is available for codec and sound card manufacturers to implement.

With regard specifically to HD content in Vista..

Are all the pieces in place for us HTPC folks to take advantage of the new audio features in Vista with HD DVD & BD playback?

Which codec and/or hardware is currently offering a bass management solution?

Does the Microsoft AC-3 decoder offer 5.1-7.1 or is it just a 2.1 downmix?

Is Warner specifically holding back titles to wait for BD interactivity to catch up to HD-DVD? They seems to be a list of releases for France indicating any title with IME will be HD-DVD only. However, if they are serious about the TotalHD disc, then they would have to wait in the states.

Chris

Let me find out Josh. I didn't realize they were labeling them as such because I suspect most are progressively encoded (certainly Warner titles in VC-1 are).

Thanks, Amir. For what it's worth, Toshiba's releases in Japan are all AVC.

Is Warner specifically holding back titles to wait for BD interactivity to catch up to HD-DVD? They seems to be a list of releases for France indicating any title with IME will be HD-DVD only. However, if they are serious about the TotalHD disc, then they would have to wait in the states.

Chris


I second this question....it's a definite area of concern for me.

For companies who want to convert HD DVD streams for BD, we have a utility to strip off the flags. We have not gotten requests for conversion in reverse so we have no utility to insert flags from a BD stream.


Wouldn't that require the BD encoding to fall under HD DVD bandwidth limits? You couldn't easily transcode the VC-1, right?

It would seem to me if you're encoding for porting, doing the HD DVD first is more logical. It eliminates mistakes.

Would it be possible (theoretically) to transcode VC-1 to VC-1 and lower the bit-rate without unacceptable artifacts?

Gary

Wouldn't that require the BD encoding to fall under HD DVD bandwidth limits?
It would.

You couldn't easily transcode the VC-1, right?
We could easily transcode (or transrate, see below) but it is not recommended practice today for high quality format such as HD DVD.

Would it be possible (theoretically) to transcode VC-1 to VC-1 and lower the bit-rate without unacceptable artifacts?

Gary
There are technologies for this. But there is a performance gap still which is the subject of research...

Amir

Can we expect any more announcements from Universal for February? Only 1 announced title so far is really dissapointing... :(

Amir/Talk

I would be interested to hear your personal opinion on what it's going to take in terms of # of HW sales to get one or two major studio's to market both HD DVD / Blu-Ray.

With studio's controlling SW content and HW vendors controlling HW in North America, I'd like to see HD DVD movies from Disney, Lions Gate and Fox and for Blu-Ray discs Universal. To make this happen its going to take a number of players to push either studio and I'm not sure what that number might be.

Although each side has chosen a different strategy for 2007, HD DVD to add additional HW vendors and lower the price for J6P and Blu-Ray to push the supporting studios to expand on the number of titles released. Sometime in 2007 one of these studios is going to give in. Your personal opinion would help let those of us users some hope that the playing field for content will be levelled off somewhat.

Sales in North America:

1-2 million

2-3 million

3-4 million

4-5 million

Another question: do you think Total HD is 'cost effective' solution?
From nonprofessional view point, I don't see any difficulty for manufacturing back-to-back BD/DVD combo disc if Total HD is cost effective (though I read some info that Total HD's yield is around 10%).
The yield for total HD discs is the yield for each side multiplied by each other plus some reduction for the step of bonding the two together. So if you are hearing 10% yield for THD discs, then the yields must be very low for the BD side for that replicator. Let’s go to math camp to see why :).

Assuming a 90% yield for HD DVD, that means to get to your 10% yield number for THD, the yield for the BD side would be around 11% if there is zero loss due to bonding. Let's say that bonding destroys yields by 20%, but that still means a yield of 14% for the BD side (.1/(.9*.2)). So either your 10% number is wrong, or the BD yields are still very poor :).

If you want to argue the 20% number is wrong which would be fair as that is a pure guess on my part, then that means that any BD combo would have poor yields also since you rightly state that the same thing happens there for BD combo discs.

Of course, in case of HD DVD combos, yields on both halves is quite high, and we are building on the proven DVD-18 process (one of the major benefits of HD DVD and DVD being similar in manufacturing), so the dynamics are incredibly in favor of this format, instead of BD combo/THD.

Having said all of this, there is really no yield number that we have heard for THD and we somewhat share your concern regarding their cost/yield. The process simply is not that far along and views of replicators vary significantly from each other on degree of difficulty. However, Warner justifies the extra cost by saying it is still cheaper than making two packages and shipping them separately. They are probably right other than concern regarding getting BD-50 to work in this sandwich (and to a lesser concern, HD DVD-30).

If the yield ratio of BD25 is high enough (>80%), maybe it's easier than HD DVD30/DVD9 combo disc (Cinram said before that it was said around 75%).
There has been no independently verified yield numbers for BD-25. The numbers thrown around seem to be after the machine has warmed up and is producing working discs which we hear can take up to two days (meaning the actual yield as measured by industry standards is much lower, especially given the smaller runs of today). That is good for PR, but not for computing real disc costs :). So before the math above works, you have to have real BD yields from an independent replicator.

For the sake of discussion, assuming one believes the 80% number for BD, and using the assumptions I have above (and using 95% yield for DVD side), then your effective yield is at 61% for BD combo. Drop down the BD number to accommodate the fact that no such machine exists today and such, there will be some learning curve, plus the fact that the BD numbers are measured differently, and your yields easily drop below 50% or put another way, less than one out of two discs being good! This makes already expensive BD discs nearly twice as expensive to make them as combos.

BTW, any math error above can be blamed either on my poor skills at this age, or Office 2007 :D.

Amir,

On a related question, but more broad, when will we see HD-DVD ramp up it's release schedule. At CES, it was stated 600 HD-DVD titles worldwide by the end of 2007. I'm guessing there are ~250 titles so far, which means ~350 more in 2007.

It looks like worldwide (Japanese, European, and NA), January might have gotten 20 new titles. That would leave 330 titles in 11 months, which would require an average of around 33 releases per month here on out. However, there doesn't appear to be anywhere near this level of support announced for February, or March. If those months repeat January, we will need to see 32 or so new titles per month for the rest of the year.

Do you have any information that at what point we will start seeing 30 or more new releases each month worldwide? April? May? June?

Is Warner specifically holding back titles to wait for BD interactivity to catch up to HD-DVD? They seems to be a list of releases for France indicating any title with IME will be HD-DVD only. However, if they are serious about the TotalHD disc, then they would have to wait in the states.

Chris
I "third" this question. Is Warner is under pressure from the BD side to hold back HD DVD releases until they can be released on BD at the same time?

The original post was regarding television network originated content and I have not heard of any of this being produced in progressive in Europe.

Actually it's quite popular to shoot in 25psf over here. This should still be encoded as progressive. Depending on the video post tool used, Graphics, transitions and credits might have been rendered in 50i, though.

Our VC-1 encoder can generate streams compatible with either HD DVD or BD. For HD DVD, it will progressively encode codec and include the necessary flags. For BD it is just the stream.

For companies who want to convert HD DVD streams for BD, we have a utility to strip off the flags. We have not gotten requests for conversion in reverse so we have no utility to insert flags from a BD stream.What ABR and PBR does the VC-1 encoder default to? What GOP length does it default to?

Do companies like Disney still need to strip off the 60i flags after doing an encode like "Flightplan" for Blu-ray, or does the encoder now have the option to leave those flags off?

Thanks,
Darin

Sorry for asking again but since it got lost in the thread......

Amir, have you heard anything else about Magnolia and BCI on their delayed HD DVD releases? It just seems odd that all of the HDNet stuff is already out on HD DVD but almost all of the Magnolia stuff is out on Blu-ray. I'm looking forward to seeing some great movies like War Within, One Last Thing, World's Fastest Indian, etc on HD DVD.

That being said please give Magnolia a big thumbs up when you talk to them for adding a TrueHD soundtrack to the HD DVD version of the Architect.

Also for insiders on both sides, have any of you heard interest in some other smaller studios for releasing on either format (Palm Pictures, Tartan, Anchor Bay, etc.)?

The yield for total HD discs is ...Thank you for your opinion, however, since you are not an insider of replication industry, I'd like to hear information from definite insider of that industry.

Paidgeek, or anyone else that can know the answer: I just bought a sony vaio ar21s, and there´s a disclaimer that AVC or VC1 material over 20 mbps will not play smoothly. I don´t know if it´s true, I only have mpeg2 material, but I´d like to know if software updates will help or I´ll never be able to watch most future movies! I have intervideo windvd bd for vaio, version 7.5 I think. Thanks!

Sorry for asking again but since it got lost in the thread......
I'm tracking down what's up with Magnolia. AFAIK, they're still on track for HD DVD releases.

FYI, I'm going to be a little slow on AVS this week - I'm at the Hollywood Post Alliance Technology Retreat, hanging out with fellow video geeks.

I just referenced the article because it did seem to indicate the color space was being altered. I thought that with SD material, maybe some more obvious visualizations caused by the alterations could be occurring (on HD material it took a pretty detailed analysis to find the difference).
Well, it was certainly a flattering article, but I think it underestimated the quality leap of 1080p over 720p. It's almost as big an improvement as 480p to 720.

I think the Live Marketplace clips are doing a great job of delivering on high quality HD with a reasonable download time, though.

Any chance of Live snagging Heroes? I know you have the show following Heroes (Studio 60).
I'm not even faintly involved content acqusition for that, alas (I've been begging for Battlestar Galactica myself). Your best bet is to let NBC know you'd love to see the show on our service.

What ABR and PBR does the VC-1 encoder default to? What GOP length does it default to?
The compressionist picks when they set the project up.

Do companies like Disney still need to strip off the 60i flags after doing an encode like "Flightplan" for Blu-ray, or does the encoder now have the option to leave those flags off?
They can leave the flags off.

Oh, so it's actually 23.976fps and not true 24fps?
Yes. All the sources are 23.976 - I've never seen a D5 that wasn't.

At the moment I use a software SD DVD player in WinXP and re-rate 23.976 to 24 with ReClock (which takes over as DirectShow audio renderer and syncs the video stream to the display whilst resampling the audio). I get smoother playback on my fixed-refresh LCD that way. Can you tell me whether this is permitted within the DRM mechanisms of Vista HD DVD playback?
I imagine that'll depend on the HD DVD software player. I haven't tried that scenario myself. I'm sure there are about 10,000 posts about it in the HTPC and HD DVD Player by now :).

And bear in mind the software HD DVD players run on XP today, so they're not using anything Vista-specific yet anyway.

The yield for total HD discs is the yield for each side multiplied by each other plus some reduction for the step of bonding the two together. So if you are hearing 10% yield for THD discs, then the yields must be very low for the BD side for that replicator. Let’s go to math camp to see why :).


Can I point out again that you were one of those questioning the feasibility of BD/DVD flippies due to the tolerances needed in achieving quality BD data layers. You questioned whether a thinner substrate could manage it.

Now, it seems you want to ignore that part.

Total HD is mostly a new BD process. Once you can fill hoppers at a combiner station with pressed 0.6mm halves, it doesn't much matter if they are BD, HD DVD or DVD, right?

Gary

Is Warner specifically holding back titles to wait for BD interactivity to catch up to HD-DVD? They seems to be a list of releases for France indicating any title with IME will be HD-DVD only. However, if they are serious about the TotalHD disc, then they would have to wait in the states.

Chris
Sorry to have to bump this forward again, since it seems that the relevant insiders have not acknowledged the question.

A number of people have asked for this to be answered.

Paidgeek and/or talkstr8t - a couple of threads are buzzing with word that the BDJ advanced authoring tools are not ready for the studios yet, and that a number of HD DVD titles by Warner, and possibly others, are being withheld until the equivalent Bluray versions are ready.

Can you comment on this, please?

As someone format-neutral I would like to know this as well - if someone less polarizing asks, perhaps it will be answered.

(if) ...the BDJ advanced authoring tools are not ready for the studios yet, and that a number of HD DVD titles by Warner, and possibly others, are being withheld until the equivalent Bluray versions are ready.

Could this also be a reason that some titles are now being announced for HD DVD but not for Blu-ray from some of the neutral studios?

Are the interactive elements of HDi that are probably being used on the HD DVD versions able to be used at this time by BD-J or is this a sign of BD50 allocation issues? Why would not the Blu-ray and HD DVD versions be released together, unless their was a Blu-ray bottleneck somewhere?

Thanks Nick and Kosty - that makes five or six people who have asked now.

I could add to the question - we have just gotten some information in another thread that some BD-J titles may be delayed due to ongoing testing of the advanced BDJ features on players that are not yet shipping, are in testbed form, or have not yet been built.

Is this closer to the situation?

Do you think that Warner should hold back their equivalent HD DVD releases until this BD-J testing is complete, given that it could take months?

Sorry to have to bump this forward again, since it seems that the relevant insiders have not acknowledged the question.

A number of people have asked for this to be answered.

Paidgeek and/or talkstr8t - a couple of threads are buzzing with word that the BDJ advanced authoring tools are not ready for the studios yet, and that a number of HD DVD titles by Warner, and possibly others, are being withheld until the equivalent Bluray versions are ready.

Can you comment on this, please?

There are no "advanced authoring tools" for BD-J, I would not expect there to ever be. It is a programming language so it makes little sense to create a fancy GUI based authoring tool that then becomes constrained by what is included as a GUI function. I suspect authoring companies will continue to grow their current libraries of functions and this will lead to more and more interesting interactive discs over months and years. I'm not sure what WB's criteria is, but they have said they want parity between releases and this may be a factor.

Hi PaidGeek,

For Blu-Ray music content, is your group involved in authoring/compiling the discs or does it fall under Sony-BMG/Sony Classical groups? I was a big fan of SACD, and Sony Classical's CDs in general, so I look forward to music on Blu-Ray [or other hi-rez format in HD-DVD, for that matter].

TIA.

We are working with Sony BMG on some of their releases. Blu-ray works very well for this type of product because it is incredibly demanding on bit rate.

There are no "advanced authoring tools" for BD-J, I would not expect there to ever be. It is a programming language so it makes little sense to create a fancy GUI based authoring tool that then becomes constrained by what is included as a GUI function. I suspect authoring companies will continue to grow their current libraries of functions and this will lead to more and more interesting interactive discs over months and years. I'm not sure what WB's criteria is, but they have said they want parity between releases and this may be a factor.
How about the reports that testing of the BDJ functionality on players that aren't out yet is holding up some releases?

Paidgeek, or anyone else that can know the answer: I just bought a sony vaio ar21s, and there´s a disclaimer that AVC or VC1 material over 20 mbps will not play smoothly. I don´t know if it´s true, I only have mpeg2 material, but I´d like to know if software updates will help or I´ll never be able to watch most future movies! I have intervideo windvd bd for vaio, version 7.5 I think. Thanks!

Be sure to check for updates to the software player. I have found this solves most if not all of the dropped frame problems on typical discs.

There is no requirements for the content owners to provide managed copy under the interim license. Fortunately, I understand HD DVD studios like Warner are putting in the right hooks on their discs to enable this scenario when it becomes available under final license. I don't have any data on BD.

As to logo, we hope to make the provision mandatory for the bulk of HD optical content out there. So only the exception would be noted.

And yes, the provision applies to everyonem regardless of size.
i guess i should only purchase warner hi-def disc now because i may have to repurchase the same disc over again if i wanted to have a MC....unless renting and paying for a ripped copy is allowed.

will MS upgrade WMP to rip hi-def disc or will we have to purchase this tool from a 3rd party vendor?

are there any hardware devices forthcoming that will read a ripped movie from a server? will the 360 allow this?

paidgeek, since a few forum members are still confused about the issue of Blu-ray and 1080p25/30 I have a few questions to help clarify this issue. First off though Nine Inch Nails was encoded at 1080i60 with 1080i60 syntax could it have been encoded at 1080p30 with 1080i60 syntax? Secondly is it possible at the moment to encode video at 1080p30 with 1080i60 syntax with any of the current Blu-ray authoring tools? Finally is there any major difference between in how Blu-ray encodes at 1080p30 with 1080i60 syntax and in how HD DVD encodes at 1080p24 with 1080i60 syntax? Don't both of them use progressive frames and 60i flags?

paidgeek, since a few forum members are still confused about the issue of Blu-ray and 1080p25/30 I have a few questions to help clarify this issue. First off though Nine Inch Nails was encoded at 1080i60 with 1080i60 syntax could it have been encoded at 1080p30 with 1080i60 syntax? Secondly is it possible at the moment to encode video at 1080p30 with 1080i60 syntax with any of the current Blu-ray authoring tools? Finally is there any major difference between in how Blu-ray encodes at 1080p30 with 1080i60 syntax and in how HD DVD encodes at 1080p24 with 1080i60 syntax? Don't both of them use progressive frames and 60i flags?

Plus, to add to this, because I really have no clue ... if the video is encoded at 1080p30 with 1080i60 syntax, how does it display? Is it progressive 1080p30 fps? Or is it interlaced 1080i60 fps? I would think that if it is encoded one way, but the syntax on the file/data is another, it will display in that 'other' format, no? Like, the player would see it's got interlaced format and output it that way? If that's the case, why does it matter how it was encoded? Why not just encode it for how it is going to be displayed? :confused:

I'm not trying to be difficult or smart-alecky ... I just really would like to understand this, and I'm not that video-savvy.

i guess i should only purchase warner hi-def disc now because i may have to repurchase the same disc over again if i wanted to have a MC....unless renting and paying for a ripped copy is allowed.
Actually, the other discs might have it too. I only mentioned Warner because someone looked at all the files on their titles and found the URLs for managed copy there.

will MS upgrade WMP to rip hi-def disc or will we have to purchase this tool from a 3rd party vendor?
We have not made any announcements in this regard so for now, you should assume third-part.

are there any hardware devices forthcoming that will read a ripped movie from a server? will the 360 allow this?
360 can do so in theory. I say in theory because the software would need to convert the audio track to WMA Pro. Otherwise, we would need to update the console software to handle the HD DVD audio codecs.

I purchased all four of the Discovery Atlas HD DVDs today. It had no problems recognizing and playing the data on the Brazil and China disks, but it did not do anything except display a black screen when I inserted the documentaries on Australia and Italy. I was wondering if anybody else has had this problem. My guess is that the two disks that did not play have some HD codec that the player cannot recognize at the moment.

Is anyone that interacts within this forum close to the Microsoft HD DVD team or know of someone that is involved with it, and can they ask them the reason why these two disks do not play?

I also found another forum where someone else has had the same problems with these two disks on the Xbox 360 HD DVD player.

Plus, to add to this, because I really have no clue ... if the video is encoded at 1080p30 with 1080i60 syntax, how does it display? Is it progressive 1080p30 fps? Or is it interlaced 1080i60 fps? I would think that if it is encoded one way, but the syntax on the file/data is another, it will display in that 'other' format, no? Like, the player would see it's got interlaced format and output it that way? If that's the case, why does it matter how it was encoded? Why not just encode it for how it is going to be displayed? :confused:

I'm not trying to be difficult or smart-alecky ... I just really would like to understand this, and I'm not that video-savvy.
You're on the right track. The MPEG-2 or H.264 encoder doesn't care if you code progressive content with interlaced syntax. It's chooses the correct mode for each macroblock based on the actual content in that block. A progressive image will get coded pretty much the same in interlaced MBAFF (macroblock adaptive field/frame) as it would if the encoder was set for just progressive.

At the decoder, the inverse happens. You get a progressive image reconstructed whether it's interlaced or progressive syntax as long as the original content was progressive.

At this point, the decoder outputs the frame based on the selected output format. Since no BD or HD-DVD players have 1080p@29.97 ouput, it really doesn't matter what the stream syntax is. Either syntax will display exactly the same at 1080i@29.97.

The wild card is 1080p@59.94 output. In this mode, there's a deinterlacer creating the extra frames. If it's pixel adaptive, it should be able to figure out that the image is progressive and do the proper weave. I guess the argument is that some deinterlacers don't always select weave and resolution is lost for areas that have been bobbed.

You could help the deinterlacer by somehow telling it that the image is progressive (that is, have it do a forced weave), but now you're getting into individual player implementations. Since it's extra work in the implementation, most player manufacturers are not going to go that extra mile just to fix an arcane issue with seldom used content.

Ron

CE industry insider, compression engineer and Tommy Chong look-alike.

Is Warner specifically holding back titles to wait for BD interactivity to catch up to HD-DVD? They seems to be a list of releases for France indicating any title with IME will be HD-DVD only. However, if they are serious about the TotalHD disc, then they would have to wait in the states.

Chris

I "third" this question. Is Warner is under pressure from the BD side to hold back HD DVD releases until they can be released on BD at the same time?

Variation of this question. Could Warner be limiting some of their current (and upcoming) releases because they want to release a title on both formats and not have one version of the title feature IME and not the other?

I would have like to see IME on The Departed. I'm guessing this will be a double dip title in the future.

Yes. All the sources are 23.976 - I've never seen a D5 that wasn't.
Please forgive my ignorance about this subject but what does this mean for the soundtrack? Do all HD DVD's have a fractional slowed down soundtrack and not the original film master soundtrack or how does this work?
I was under the impression HD DVD was giving us the original master soundtrack (encoded in one format or another).

Doesn't this make all the discussion about the new sound codecs and LPCM v.s. lossy v.s. lossless irrelevant if we end up with a digitally slowed down soundtrack anyway?

How is the situation with Blu-Ray? Real 24fps or 23.976 as well?

I would double this (again) and confirm there is many BD and HD-DVD released here (France) and in the UK that do use these very bad DVD thickness boxes.
Note that they are either red or blue and looks like the "regular" ones, but with DVD thickness and also the plastic look seems a lot worst.
...
Hi,

I dig a bit on this, It looks like Amaray decided Europe HD-DVD/BD may need larger booklets (up to 3mm) versus a couple of pages in US and so decide to do 14mm cases (DVDs thickness)

Here are links to the cases descriptions HD-DVD : http://www.amaray.com/cases_rt-hddvd.asp and BluRay Disk : http://www.amaray.com/cases_rt-bluray.asp

In stores, it looks like all/most Universal titles use these Amaray 14mm cases as well as a couple on BD side...

So far, Warner and Studio Canal (HD-DVD) Fox (BD) use regular 9/10mm cases. (I hope they'll pursue that route)..

Why oh why !! I really hope studio won't chose those cases (although seems some did :( !


Any insider comment on this packaging change ?

--Patrice

PS : Is there any way to buy "regular" US cases somewhere ?
EDIT : http://www.dvdinternational.com/pd_hd.cfm (out of stock, but looks like "regular" US ones)

There are no "advanced authoring tools" for BD-J, I would not expect there to ever be. It is a programming language so it makes little sense to create a fancy GUI based authoring tool that then becomes constrained by what is included as a GUI function. I suspect authoring companies will continue to grow their current libraries of functions and this will lead to more and more interesting interactive discs over months and years. I'm not sure what WB's criteria is, but they have said they want parity between releases and this may be a factor.

Talk, how does this impact your assertion that BD-J content authoring is lagging due to the complexity of that programming environment, and that it would catch up once authoring tools to to provide some abstraction hit the scene?

Paid,

Some threads I've been following (including this one) has raised some questions in my mind regarding the BD-J infrastructure. My questions stem from the context of hardware/software infrastructure and development, rather than an HD consumer. I hope it's ok to ask in this context.


Can you provide some overview of how the BD-J system works? Or can you refer me to any publicly available documentation?

Who designed the feature set and the associated API?

Is there a VM (virtual machine) in the BD players to run the java code similar to more mainstream java applications? Or does the java get compiled to a specific embedded OS requiring all manufacturers to implement the same in their players? If the implementation is VM based, who develops the VMs? Are there different VMs for the different brands of players?

Can you also tell me if the BD supporting studios are working together to develop and standardize reusable java libraries for BD-J development? Does the BDA help coordinate these development efforts between the BD studios? Or is it every studio for themselves as to how they implement their BD-J?


Thanks!

Talk, how does this impact your assertion that BD-J content authoring is lagging due to the complexity of that programming environment, and that it would catch up once authoring tools to to provide some abstraction hit the scene?
If I may add to this. Talk, a few threads over the last day or two have asked for your input on the issue of BDJ development holding up release in the BD format, and possibly the HD format as well.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=796592

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=797524&page=1&pp=30

I realize that you folks are probably in metings on this, but could you give us some comment on which studios seem to be having the most difficulty getting the advancd BDJ/BD-Video content ready, and whether or not, as above, there will or won't be authoring tools to help the studios?

Sorry but I forgot who asked these questions :). But I have the answers here from Toshiba Europe:

1. Toshiba will start shipping HD-XE1 to the retail from 2nd week of February in most European countries, including Germany.

2. The player does support PAL 50Hz and NTSC 60Hz SD-DVD and can upscale them up to 1080p.

3. HD-XE1, as HD-E1, does not support HD 50i or 25p yet. Toshiba will release a firmware update around June to enable 25p/50i. Until that date, no 25p/50i HD content will be released by any European content provider. So, no risk of incompatibility exists.

Paid,

Some threads I've been following (including this one) has raised some questions in my mind regarding the BD-J infrastructure. My questions stem from the context of hardware/software infrastructure and development, rather than an HD consumer. I hope it's ok to ask in this context.


Can you provide some overview of how the BD-J system works? Or can you refer me to any publicly available documentation?

Who designed the feature set and the associated API?

Is there a VM (virtual machine) in the BD players to run the java code similar to more mainstream java applications? Or does the java get compiled to a specific embedded OS requiring all manufacturers to implement the same in their players? If the implementation is VM based, who develops the VMs? Are there different VMs for the different brands of players?

Can you also tell me if the BD supporting studios are working together to develop and standardize reusable java libraries for BD-J development? Does the BDA help coordinate these development efforts between the BD studios? Or is it every studio for themselves as to how they implement their BD-J?


Thanks!

Paid,

I found some rather good information on my questions regarding BD-J. Here is a link: http://www.blueboard.com/bluray/ The one thing it doesn't seem to cover is the hardware implementation in the players for supporting the BD-J interactivity. Can you comment on this particular piece?

paidgeek, since a few forum members are still confused about the issue of Blu-ray and 1080p25/30 I have a few questions to help clarify this issue. First off though Nine Inch Nails was encoded at 1080i60 with 1080i60 syntax could it have been encoded at 1080p30 with 1080i60 syntax? Secondly is it possible at the moment to encode video at 1080p30 with 1080i60 syntax with any of the current Blu-ray authoring tools? Finally is there any major difference between in how Blu-ray encodes at 1080p30 with 1080i60 syntax and in how HD DVD encodes at 1080p24 with 1080i60 syntax? Don't both of them use progressive frames and 60i flags?

Sorry, but we did not encode NIN so I don't know anything about it. It is worth noting that music product is occasionally edited with a combination of interlace and progressive camera sources. When this happens, there is no alternative but to encode the whole program as interlace as the decoder cannot switch back an forth on the fly.

Both our AVC and MPEG2 encoders have settings for encoding 25p or 30p sources, though, to be frank, we have had few opportunities to experiment with these.

The most significant difference between how we encode 25p or 30p content as a 50i or 60i marked stream and HD-DVD encoding 24p as a 60i marked stream is the fact that in a 60i stream the timing information in the stream (PTS/DTS) does not correspond to 24p. This is a more significant difference than is sometimes mentioned here because it is not simply a matter of flag settings.

The most significant difference between how we encode 25p or 30p content as a 50i or 60i marked stream and HD-DVD encoding 24p as a 60i marked stream is the fact that in a 60i stream the timing information in the stream (PTS/DTS) does not correspond to 24p. This is a more significant difference than is sometimes mentioned here because it is not simply a matter of flag settings.

Can you elaborate on the difference?

Paid,

I found some rather good information on my questions regarding BD-J. Here is a link: http://www.blueboard.com/bluray/ The one thing it doesn't seem to cover is the hardware implementation in the players for supporting the BD-J interactivity. Can you comment on this particular piece?

Thanks for posting the link to blueboard, the information there looks accurate and fairly comprehensive.

There are several chipsets in use by the hardware players, and there are the PS3, and PC implementations.

The chip set solutions I am aware of are Broadcomm, Sigma, Samsung and variations that use these chips plus external processors to optimize certain functions. All BDJ implementations have to pass test suites as part of the BD certification process.

Thanks for posting the link to blueboard, the information there looks accurate and fairly comprehensive.
...
All BDJ implementations have to pass test suites as part of the BD certification process.The blueboard site provides a nice general overview but does not detail the differences between BD-J profiles. Looking for more detailed info than can be found at:
http://www.blueboard.com/bluray/programming.htm
Programming BD-J
Coming soon. Is there any place we can go to in order to determine the capabilities of the various BD-J profiles? Any info on what the test suites will cover as to Use Cases?

I purchased all four of the Discovery Atlas HD DVDs today. It had no problems recognizing and playing the data on the Brazil and China disks, but it did not do anything except display a black screen when I inserted the documentaries on Australia and Italy. I was wondering if anybody else has had this problem. My guess is that the two disks that did not play have some HD codec that the player cannot recognize at the moment.

Is anyone that interacts within this forum close to the Microsoft HD DVD team or know of someone that is involved with it, and can they ask them the reason why these two disks do not play?

I also found another forum where someone else has had the same problems with these two disks on the Xbox 360 HD DVD player.
Well all of them are encoded in AVC with menus in MPEG2 except for Brazil which is completely VC-1.

Did you guys help them with the encode of Atlas Brazil and do you know why that was the only title to use VC-1? Also do you know if they started to encode other programs with VC-1 yet (don't need specifics since they haven't announced any yet unless you're feeling generous!)?

360 can do so in theory. I say in theory because the software would need to convert the audio track to WMA Pro. Otherwise, we would need to update the console software to handle the HD DVD audio codecs.

can't it already handle them? I mean it can read the HDDVD's right? Why can it handle a file type/codec in it's drive but not over the network (MCE)?

can't it already handle them? I mean it can read the HDDVD's right? Why can it handle a file type/codec in it's drive but not over the network (MCE)?
The HD DVD playback comes as part of the drive. The console itself doesn't have the same decoders.

In addition, when you make a managed copy, you don't keep the files in the original format as AACS is only defined for optical disc protection. So the current HD DVD playback software would not be able to play the streamed copies.

Question to any insider: how are things coming along with seamless branching? Are studios using it or is it too restrictive? I have seen a couple of reports on Alien Vs Predator but nothing else. I think it´s one of the formats better extras if done correctly. You could, for example, watch Spiderman 2 or the new cut with the added 8 minutes....And let´s not talk about LOTR, Star Wars...

I've addressed that webpage's many outright misstatements of facts at length in the past. In brief, it dramatically overstates the extent of incompatibility 1G players may have with future content, and it is my expectation that most buyers of 1G equipment understand that they are paying a premium to be "first on the block", and that replacement models will likely have more features for lower cost. As a result, I don't expect much consumer dissatisfaction in this regard.
Talk, could you explain to what extent the delays of the BDJ advanced function Bluray releases are due to a lack of authoring tools versus studios having problems testing various implementations of BDJ in the various existing players and possible future players?

Do you foresee a time when this will be easier for the studios?

Do any insiders have comments on the Nielsen/Videoscan numbers Grubert posted about here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=798080)? Those are the ones that seem to indicate about a 2:1 advantage for Blu-ray software sales over HD DVD software sales for the week ending January 7th and 3:1 for the week ending January 14th (calculated from the YTD lead growing from 100:47 to 100:38). I'm specifically wondering if any insiders feel those numbers are inaccurate, and if so, why they think they are inaccurate.

Thanks,
Darin

A question for BD insiders. Dances with Wolves is scheduled to be released on March 13, 2007 on BD-25 using AVC. There have been some exchanges back and forth between some folks and myself on this title. A couple of people have felt that BD-25 is simply too small even with AVC to get a decent looking encode of this 181 minute movie.

I'm looking for feedback on this question. Is AVC up to the task of producing great PQ with this length of a movie on this size of disc? Assuming the title gets a good restoration of course.

Please forgive my ignorance about this subject but what does this mean for the soundtrack? Do all HD DVD's have a fractional slowed down soundtrack and not the original film master soundtrack or how does this work?
I was under the impression HD DVD was giving us the original master soundtrack (encoded in one format or another).

Doesn't this make all the discussion about the new sound codecs and LPCM v.s. lossy v.s. lossless irrelevant if we end up with a digitally slowed down soundtrack anyway?

How is the situation with Blu-Ray? Real 24fps or 23.976 as well?

When we master films, they are done at true 48kHz at 30ND FPS.. when they go to video mastering, they are slowed down 0.1% (pulled down) to the 29.97 rate.. it is negligible and not audible if done properly with good sample rate conversion.

Talk, could you explain to what extent the delays of the BDJ advanced function Bluray releases are due to a lack of authoring tools versus studios having problems testing various implementations of BDJ in the various existing players and possible future players?

Do you foresee a time when this will be easier for the studios?

Talk, I am interested in your response to this question as well. Any BD insider feel free to answer, but Talk seems to be very involved in the BDJ process.

This is only slightly related to HDTV Software, but I am asking this of the insiders here on the off chance they might have an answer:

In the Cell Broadband Engine technology, what was Toshiba's contribution, and how much do they stand to gain monetarily from each $1 revenue from the technology?

I am asking this to get an idea on how much the success of PS3 and Blu-Ray would help Toshiba irrespective of the fortunes of HD-DVD. With the insiders from Intel, Sun, BroadCom, SigmaTel, Microsoft and Sony Pictures here, I figure SOMEONE would have to know.

TIA :)

This is only slightly related to HDTV Software, but I am asking this of the insiders here on the off chance they might have an answer:

In the Cell Broadband Engine technology, what was Toshiba's contribution, and how much do they stand to gain monetarily from each $1 revenue from the technology?

I am asking this to get an idea on how much the success of PS3 and Blu-Ray would help Toshiba irrespective of the fortunes of HD-DVD. With the insiders from Intel, Sun, BroadCom, SigmaTel, Microsoft and Sony Pictures here, I figure SOMEONE would have to know.

TIA :)
The CELL is a joint venture between Sony, Toshiba and IBM. IBM did a lot of the design. Toshiba is involved as a semiconductor arm although I am not sure if Sony is sourcing the chips themselves right now, or getting them from Toshiba for PS3.

In general, Cell is not a strategic project for Toshiba as HD DVD is. Otherwise, there would be no format war as CELL project has been going for a number of years :).

As to how much they make from each CELL, it all depends on whether they are shipping the processors to Sony and if so, what negotiated prices exist. In other words, you are not going to know in a public forum like this :).

Sorry I can't be too specific. But something tells me that no other insider is going to say more :).

Amir the thing is that he didn't ask about Cell in the context of HD DVD - in fact he explicitly said "irrespective," and the answer you gave:

1) Seemed to indicate (twice) that Toshiba was a fab source alone... when in truth they're not even fabbing yet

and

2) IMO downplayed the strategic role Toshiba hopes Cell will play in their future product-offerings. SED was going to be Cell-powered, for instance (oh how I'll miss thee SED!), and I wouldn't be surprised if HD DVD players from them a year out from now are as well. (The four SPE bulk process variants of which I'll post some slides in the battle thread soon)

Now, in terms of which is more important overall to them, Cell or HD DVD, I *certainly* wasn't trying to imply the former; I agree that it's clearly the latter from a strategic standpoint. Don't worry, I'm not trying to contradict any Toshiba exec, and I full well believe that you have indeed had those conversations. :)

Amir the thing is that he didn't ask about Cell in the context of HD DVD - in fact he explicitly said "irrespective," and the answer you gave:
Well then your read and mine are very different of his question. When I see this:

“to get an idea on how much the success of PS3 and Blu-Ray would help Toshiba”

It says to me the OP wants to know if Toshiba will be happy to lose the HD DVD format, if they can gain good revenue from CELL in PS3. So I answered that it doesn’t matter how much revenue they make, they are not going to give up on HD DVD regardless. Put another way, I gave the ultimate answer instead of trying to dig up the intermediate one (i.e. their revenues per PS3).

1) Seemed to indicate (twice) that Toshiba was a fab source alone... when in truth they're not even fabbing yet
Semiconductor and "fab source" are two different things. Toshiba's group which is involved here is the semiconductor group. I did not say they simply provided fab capacity. Nor did I say that they were producing the CELL for PS3. I said I didn't know if they were.


2) IMO downplayed the strategic role Toshiba hopes Cell will play in their future product-offerings.
I made no comment about future products. I made a comment about its strategic importance to them.

SED was going to be Cell-powered, for instance (oh how I'll miss thee SED!), and I wouldn't be surprised if HD DVD players from them a year out from now are as well. (The four SPE bulk process variants of which I'll post some slides in the battle thread soon)
Then be prepared to be surprised because no HD DVD player will be using CELL for the foreseeable future :). BRCM, Sigma, NEC and others are making sure of that with fixed function devices which are lower power and more optimized for the job at hand.

Now, in terms of which is more important overall to them, Cell or HD DVD, I *certainly* wasn't trying to imply the former; I agree that it's clearly the latter from a strategic standpoint.
Good deal :).

Do you work for IBM by any chance?

The CELL is a joint venture between Sony, Toshiba and IBM. IBM did a lot of the design. Toshiba is involved as a semiconductor arm although I am not sure if Sony is sourcing the chips themselves right now, or getting them from Toshiba for PS3.

In general, Cell is not a strategic project for Toshiba as HD DVD is. Otherwise, there would be no format war as CELL project has been going for a number of years :).

As to how much they make from each CELL, it all depends on whether they are shipping the processors to Sony and if so, what negotiated prices exist. In other words, you are not going to know in a public forum like this :).

Sorry I can't be too specific. But something tells me that no other insider is going to say more :).

But couldn't Toshiba starting putting one or two cell processors in a 3G player just for the raw processing power. To be open to hackers to develop new and (hopefully) compelling content for our entermaint.

But couldn't Toshiba starting putting one or two cell processors in a 3G player just for the raw processing power. To be open to hackers to develop new and (hopefully) compelling content for our entermaint.
Sure. But hey, why stop there. They could put a dual core X86 in there. That way, hackers would at least know how to program the darn thing :).

Assuming you are serious, the goal for future products is to reduce the cost as much as possible to get to below current price points. As such, putting general purpose processors in there don't make as much sense.

Issues here are:

1. DD+ is not backward compatible with DD. If it were, one could just output the original stream but we can not.
Are you aware, that DD+ was designed so that conversion from DD+ to DD can be done without ever going to PCM? Depending on the DD+ stream it's sometimes even possible to just repackage the DD+ stream without changing the sound data at all. (That will definitely not possible with Universal's DD+ tracks, but maybe with Warner's.) More details see here:

http://www.transtec.nl/download.php?id=189&file=Pro%2Fdolby%2FDolbyDigitalPlusWhitePaper.pdf

Wouldn't that be the best option for Xbox audio output?

Question about the PS3, Paidgeek or Talk

For the PS3 will there be any streaming from a pc, also right now any external hard disk and only be formated Fat32, which sucks do to the 4 gig file limit.

Is there any change coming for this. will the PS3 read a better file system then FAt32, NTFS maybee.

Thanks

also Roxio dvdit Hd produces a BDMV folder when creating a Blu-ray home movie this does not play back on the ps3, will this be included with a firmware update.

A question for BD insiders. Dances with Wolves is scheduled to be released on March 13, 2007 on BD-25 using AVC. There have been some exchanges back and forth between some folks and myself on this title. A couple of people have felt that BD-25 is simply too small even with AVC to get a decent looking encode of this 181 minute movie.

I'm looking for feedback on this question. Is AVC up to the task of producing great PQ with this length of a movie on this size of disc? Assuming the title gets a good restoration of course.
I am interested in this as well, because 3 hours on BD25 does seem plausible. HD30 can fit 188 minute movies using VC1 for so-called reference quality video (King Kong), and benwaggoner has claimed that 12 Mbps average is now sufficient for many/most movies for near-reference quality VC1 video. That would suggest that a single 25 GB BD disc would be sufficient for a 3 hour movie, if VC1 were used (assuming non-PCM audio tracks were used).

Does the 12 Mbps VC1 claim include grain-heavy films, or are noticeably higher bitrates required for such films? Can AVC H.264 claim to be as efficient at this time for either grainy or non-grainy films? If not, at what ballpark bitates are considered necessary for "near-reference" quality video with AVC?



Are you aware, that DD+ was designed so that conversion from DD+ to DD can be done without ever going to PCM? Depending on the DD+ stream it's sometimes even possible to just repackage the DD+ stream without changing the sound data at all. (That will definitely not possible with Universal's DD+ tracks, but maybe with Warner's.) More details see here:

http://www.transtec.nl/download.php?id=189&file=Pro%2Fdolby%2FDolbyDigitalPlusWhitePaper.pdf

Wouldn't that be the best option for Xbox audio output?
HD DVD audio output requires player sounds to be mixed in.

I too would like to hear any insider's thoughts about the Nielson sales numbers.

HD DVD audio output requires player sounds to be mixed in.
You are no insider. So would you please NOT try to answer my questions here? Thanks. :mad: Besides, I'm well aware about PCM sound mixing in HD DVD players. But outputting the audio track directly without mixing might be interesting for many people if that happens to improves sound quality.

Then be prepared to be surprised because no HD DVD player will be using CELL for the foreseeable future :). BRCM, Sigma, NEC and others are making sure of that with fixed function devices which are lower power and more optimized for the job at hand.

Well, we'll see. I don't take it as a given mind you, but a 4-SPE Cell chip on the 65nm node would be a good deal more competetive than the P4 chips they're presently working with in terms of both expense to themselves and speed/programmability. They would be as flexible as the PS3 in terms of update potential, as fast in loading, could handle the video and audio decode both, as well as the interactivity features.

Has someone busted a second-gen Toshiba player open yet to see what they're using in terms of x86 vs dedicated IC?

Anyway this is Toshiba's own roadmap on the subject, for whatever it's worth:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/xbdestroya/roadmapToshiba.jpg

Good deal :).

Do you work for IBM by any chance?

Well I could see where you would think that, but no. (I know a lot of people there though, including an ex-girlfriend) I'm actually a technology journalist; not the primary income stream in my life (thankfully?), but a big drain on time, for better or for worse. ;)

I just want to know when BD-J will be finished so that Blu ray can get titles like Batman Begins.

BRCM, Sigma, NEC and others are making sure of that with fixed function devices which are lower power and more optimized for the job at hand.There are also new upcoming requirements for CE products around the world regarding how much power they can consume. Even at only 3W, we had to add many new power-control features to our chips to meet these requirements.

Kjack this is a question you may or may not know the answer to, but would make my life easier relative to hunting it down elsewhere... do you know the die size of your SMP8630 MIPS chips?

This is really for my own personal curiosity. Also if you know where they're fabbed as well and on what process node, you'd have my undying appreciation. :)

Kjack this is a question you may or may not know the answer to, but would make my life easier relative to hunting it down elsewhere... do you know the die size of your SMP8630 MIPS chips? This is really for my own personal curiosity. Also if you know where they're fabbed as well and on what process node, you'd have my undying appreciation. :)I know the answers, but they are just a little proprietary. :)

kjack

Is sigma planning on making a pc card for BD\hd-dvd playback like you did for dvd(hollywood+ \ x-card) ?

Is sigma planning on making a pc card for BD\hd-dvd playback like you did for dvd(hollywood+ \ x-card) ?No. We looked at it briefly a long time ago, but (1) the content protection issues were a major concern and (2) we got out of pc card business.

Are you aware, that DD+ was designed so that conversion from DD+ to DD can be done without ever going to PCM? Depending on the DD+ stream it's sometimes even possible to just repackage the DD+ stream without changing the sound data at all. (That will definitely not possible with Universal's DD+ tracks, but maybe with Warner's.) More details see here:

http://www.transtec.nl/download.php?id=189&file=Pro%2Fdolby%2FDolbyDigitalPlusWhitePaper.pdf

Wouldn't that be the best option for Xbox audio output?
Of course we are "aware." Does a race car driver need to be shown where the gas pedal is? :)

What Dolby describes is a way to save computational horsepower in the conversion. They do not claim that the conversion is lossless or that it is possible in all cases. Yes, we can re-quantize in frequency domain instead of time domain, but that is still re-quantization which means re-encoding of the signals. The only thing saved here is having to do the transform back and forth from the time domain. This doesn't make the quality of the conversion any better.

And as you note, the conversion by definition cannot be done that way if the data rate exceeds 640kbps which is the max the current receivers have been tested for. So you have to re-quantize for that.

So my statement remains. DD+ is incompatible with DD.

I'd like to ask a question of BenWaggoner or FilmMixer.

During a discussion on another thread (dealing with HD-DVD disc size), one of the folks made the following comment:

"Flightplan" and "Casanova" were VC-1. Whether they would fit on 30GB discs or not I don't know, but from checks of them it looks like it wouldn't matter since they wouldn't work with HD DVD's current 1.0x spin rate and the bandwidth limitations that came with that. If HD DVD changes their spin rate to 1.5x with the TL51s and applies that 1.5x spin rate to all other discs, then those titles might work even in 30GB. I bet the bandwidth ceiling has been more of a limitation for HD DVD than the disc sizes.
I was curious as to what "checks" he was referring to and was told the following:

I looked at "Flightplan" with the PS3 bitrate meter and it showed a very high average and peaks that went well above 30Mbps many times and not just for a spike. It isn't perfect, but a calculation from the filesize estimated something like 27Mbps average for that one. Somebody else checked "Casanova" and I read that it also had very high peaks. I think both of these went beyond the bandwidth ceiling of HD DVD (which is about 30Mbps for audio and video, with a buffer for short spikes).
I looked up the disc content and retrieved the following information (DVDEmpire):

Features:
Audio Commentary with Director Robert Schwentke
"Emergency Landing" - Visual Effects
"Cabin Pressure" - Designing The Aalto E-474
Blu-Scape·Jet Stream - A High Definition Short Film by Award-Winning Filmmaker Louie Schwartzberg
Movie Showcase·Instant Access to Select Movie Scenes That Showcase the Ultimate in High Definition Picture and Sound
Seamless Menus

Video:
Widescreen 2.35:1 Color

Audio:
ENGLISH: Dolby Digital 5.1
ENGLISH: PCM 5.1 [CC]
SPANISH: Dolby Digital 5.1
FRENCH: Dolby Digital 5.1

Subtitles:
Spanish, French
The movie itself is 98 minutes long.

I see there is a 5.1 LPCM soundtrack which could be compressed for HD-DVD, but the video is apparently encoded in VC-1. Is it likely this title would not fit onto a DL30 disc?

TIA and thanks for your time -- Trevor

I have a related question for our respective Microsoft and Sony insiders:

When will the 360's Xenon transition to 65 nm?

When will the Cell transition to 65 nm?

Will Microsoft and Sony transition their respective GPU's to 65 nm at the same time?

Thank you.

I have a related question for our respective Microsoft and Sony insiders:

When will the 360's Xenon transition to 65 nm?

When will the Cell transition to 65 nm?

Will Microsoft and Sony transition their respective GPU's to 65 nm at the same time?

Thank you.
I don't want to speak on behalf of Xbox team in general. Nor do I feel the above is related to HD optical formats :). So I am going to pass on answering.

Does the 12 Mbps VC1 claim include grain-heavy films, or are noticeably higher bitrates required for such films? Can AVC H.264 claim to be as efficient at this time for either grainy or non-grainy films? If not, at what ballpark bitates are considered necessary for "near-reference" quality video with AVC?
You'd want more than 12 Mbps to preserve the texture of grainy sources.

I've yet to see a AVC encode do a good job of preserving grain - I'm not sure what data rate that would require, if it's even possible.

I see there is a 5.1 LPCM soundtrack which could be compressed for HD-DVD, but the video is apparently encoded in VC-1. Is it likely this title would not fit onto a DL30 disc?

For a 98 minute title, there'd be more than enough space for the video on on HD DVD-30 with TrueHD audio, even with a fair amount of extras.

Paidgeek,

From your experience with AVC, could you tell us if your expectation is that it can produce very good PQ with a 3 hour title on BD-25? Assuming of course that the source material you're working with is in very good condition.

Please forgive my ignorance about this subject but what does this mean for the soundtrack? Do all HD DVD's have a fractional slowed down soundtrack and not the original film master soundtrack or how does this work?
I was under the impression HD DVD was giving us the original master soundtrack (encoded in one format or another).

Doesn't this make all the discussion about the new sound codecs and LPCM v.s. lossy v.s. lossless irrelevant if we end up with a digitally slowed down soundtrack anyway?
It's just 0.1% - you'll never notice the difference.

But no, you're noat going to hear the original master soundtrack in typical use. Slight rate conversions, application of audio watermark, etcetera. It can sound transparent to the source, certainly, but the original soundtrack's samples aren't going to pass over your HDMI.

That said, you couldn't pick out the difference in double-blind testing.

Paidgeek,

From your experience with AVC, could you tell us if your expectation is that it can produce very good PQ with a 3 hour title on BD-25? Assuming of course that the source material you're working with is in very good condition.

My opinion is that it will be difficult to get a good reproduction of a film master with any codec at less than 16 - 18Mbps. Even a very good film master will have grain and difficult areas to encode. To date, I have not seen any low bit rate encodes that do not show significant artifacting.

Paidgeek,

Do you know if Sony, Fox or MGM are at all interested in porting over all extras to their discs or will they continue on this same path? I refuse to buy into BD until this starts.

Paidgeek,

Do you know if Sony, Fox or MGM are at all interested in porting over all extras to their discs or will they continue on this same path? I refuse to buy into BD until this starts.

Do you mean all the standard definition extras? They are a bit underwhelming on your 100" HD projector don't you think?

I don't want to speak on behalf of Xbox team in general. Nor do I feel the above is related to HD optical formats :). So I am going to pass on answering.


Sorry, I meant to say "unrelated". It was worth a try. ;)

Thanks for responding

Do you mean all the standard definition extras? They are a bit underwhelming on your 100" HD projector don't you think?

Yes, SD extras. I could care less about having HD extras.

I don't have an HD projector. I'm just looking for some value in BD.

Should I assume from your response that BD doesn't care about this and that it's a format only being targeted to those with "100" HD projectors?"

Do you mean all the standard definition extras? They are a bit underwhelming on your 100" HD projector don't you think?

I think he asked you a question, why don't you answer it? Valid question. Yes or No?

When will the Cell transition to 65 nm?The answer to this question can be found here amongst many other Cell and POWER architecture items.

http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/power/cell/

Ian.

My opinion is that it will be difficult to get a good reproduction of a film master with any codec at less than 16 - 18Mbps. Even a very good film master will have grain and difficult areas to encode. To date, I have not seen any low bit rate encodes that do not show significant artifacting.

Thanks for the feedback. King Kong turned out very well using VC1.

Do you have any insight as to why Fox decided to use BD-25 for Dances with Wolves?

Amir, first thanks for answering my question a while a go.

I asked about the DD+ bug fix for the xbox. You said two weeks ago it will be a matter of weeks and not month. I take this as a way to describe a time frame of 2-8 weeks. So, two weeks have passed and my question is: are we there yet? Is it still a matter of weeks - or did we at least got rid of the s behind the k? I know it is on the xbox team to release the fix and I would love to annoy them instead of you, but you are the only one available. Its like Star Trek, you are the only space ship in range to help... So is there any chance to reduce the current time frame of 0-6 weeks to a smaller spread - or even to a clear release date?

Another question on a complety different topic. Is there or will there be a video HD camera (for home use) that uses the VC-1 codec? Will it be possible to cut the self recorded VC-1 material with a standard <$1000 Vista PC or does one need extraordinary (and expensive) PC power. Right now I am using the Pinnacle Studio Software which is cheap but doing pretty good with SD movies. Will there be similar easy to use products for VC-1? And are there any cooperations with camera manufacturers in the pipeline?

So my statement remains. DD+ is incompatible with DD.
Shouldn't you qualify that? DD+ is incompatible with DD, on HD-DVD.

Ron

Yes, SD extras. I could care less about having HD extras.

I don't have an HD projector. I'm just looking for some value in BD.

Should I assume from your response that BD doesn't care about this and that it's a format only being targeted to those with "100" HD projectors?"

Both SPE and other studios do care about added value; both SD and HD. I don't think it is compelling, but you can take comfort in the fact that I don't have any influence on what added value is included. Going forward, most added value is being prepared in HD by SPE. I'm not sure why you would care about SD extras on an HD disc format but "care less" about HD extras?

Thanks for the feedback. King Kong turned out very well using VC1.

Do you have any insight as to why Fox decided to use BD-25 for Dances with Wolves?

I'll have to check with Fox about DWW. I am wondering if this is a misprint.

kjack, who is Analogix? Never heard of them...do any of their products exist in current players/solutions?

Anyhow, good luck in that dispute ...

Shouldn't you qualify that? DD+ is incompatible with DD, on HD-DVD.

Ron
Nothing that I said was HD DVD specific. If anything, the requirement in BD that DD+ cannot be used for 5.1 channels, will probably make it even more incompatible with DD there. If differential coding is used for those two channels (i.e. 7.1), you surely need to re-encode all the channels.

But if I am missing some magic on BD, I am happy to get educated. Until then, I don't see how a codec acts differently in one format vs the other, when the streams are 100% compatible between them.

Do you mean all the standard definition extras? They are a bit underwhelming on your 100" HD projector don't you think?

Paidgeek, granted full HD extras would be nice, but the current Fox/MGM practice of
$39.99 titles with no extras is basically just slapping consumers in the face for supporting the format.

A great example is Rocky, where a 2 disc SD set full of extras was released, followed a week or two later by a featureless BD release retailing for 40 bucks. The debate over whether or not some studios should really be charging 39.99 for titles in the first place is one thing, but to charge that for titles with not a single decent supplement is flat-out taking advantage of your customer base.

I'll have to check with Fox about DWW. I am wondering if this is a misprint.


If it is indeed a BD-25, couldn't this easily be attributed to the material not being all that challenging? Seems like it should make for a very compressible title.

Did LOA compress very well?

Amir, first thanks for answering my question a while a go.

I asked about the DD+ bug fix for the xbox. You said two weeks ago it will be a matter of weeks and not month. I take this as a way to describe a time frame of 2-8 weeks. So, two weeks have passed and my question is: are we there yet? Is it still a matter of weeks - or did we at least got rid of the s behind the k? I know it is on the xbox team to release the fix and I would love to annoy them instead of you, but you are the only one available. Its like Star Trek, you are the only space ship in range to help... So is there any chance to reduce the current time frame of 0-6 weeks to a smaller spread - or even to a clear release date?
The plan I was originally chasing was to just get out the DTS change. Alas, we need to update many other things and didnt' want to go through multiple releases to do that. So we are rolling them all up into one release. This still doesn't put it too far in the future, but it is not coming out today either. I aprpeciate your patience and hopefully there will be rewards for getting a more comprehensive release out there, than just upgrading the audio (yes, I know this is the most asked request :)).

Another question on a complety different topic. Is there or will there be a video HD camera (for home use) that uses the VC-1 codec? Will it be possible to cut the self recorded VC-1 material with a standard <$1000 Vista PC or does one need extraordinary (and expensive) PC power. Right now I am using the Pinnacle Studio Software which is cheap but doing pretty good with SD movies. Will there be similar easy to use products for VC-1? And are there any cooperations with camera manufacturers in the pipeline?
I can't disclose future unreleased products. But yes, at high level, there is good interested in VC-1 camcorders.

Paidgeek, granted full HD extras would be nice, but the current Fox/MGM practice of
$39.99 titles with no extras is basically just slapping consumers in the face for supporting the format.

A great example is Rocky, where a 2 disc SD set full of extras was released, followed a week or two later by a featureless BD release retailing for 40 bucks. The debate over whether or not some studios should really be charging 39.99 for titles in the first place is one thing, but to charge that for titles with not a single decent supplement is flat-out taking advantage of your customer base.


I actually put down a couple of BD titles that I was planning on purchasing last weekend when I very uncharacteristicaly glanced at the price sticker. Why is it that seemingly BD titles are more expensive?

kjack, who is Analogix? Never heard of them...do any of their products exist in current players/solutions?They are an alternate supplier for HDMI chips for some player manufacturers.

Anyhow, good luck in that dispute ...Huh?

If it is indeed a BD-25, couldn't this easily be attributed to the material not being all that challenging? Seems like it should make for a very compressible title.

Did LOA compress very well?

From what I recall, there is a lot of complex imagery in DWW, so I think it will benefit from higher bit rates. LOA is also very detailed and requires a high bit rate to get the most out of it.

They are an alternate supplier for HDMI chips for some player manufacturers.

Huh?


damn it, that's the second time i've confused your company...sorry...next time i'll double check :)

I was referring to:

Chip Maker Accuses Rival Of Data Theft
By Erin Coe, erin.coe@portfoliomedia.com
Thursday, February 01, 2007 --- A manufacturer of high-definition video
microchips has sued a California rival for copyright infringement and
misappropriation of trade secrets.

Silicon Image Inc., based in Sunnyvale, filed the suit Wednesday in the U.S.
District Court for the Northern District of California, asking for an injunction
against Santa Clara-based Analogix Semiconductor Inc. and significant
monetary damages.

In its complaint, Silicon Image accused Analogix of illegally copying and
using Silicon Image’s proprietary register maps and semiconductor
configuration software without the company’s consent.

...

The plan I was originally chasing was to just get out the DTS change. Alas, we need to update many other things and didnt' want to go through multiple releases to do that.

So we are rolling them all up into one release. This still doesn't put it too far in the future, but it is not coming out today either. I aprpeciate your patience and hopefully there will be rewards for getting a more comprehensive release out there, than just upgrading the audio (yes, I know this is the most asked request :)).


So then a big 360 hd-dvd update release is "coming soon"? Did your team try to tackle the VGA video level vs PC level issue as well?

From what I recall, there is a lot of complex imagery in DWW, so I think it will benefit from higher bit rates. LOA is also very detailed and requires a high bit rate to get the most out of it.

Thanks...I was just assuming that with the large, essentially static background panoramics that it is a compressionist's dream...guess not :)

It's just 0.1% - you'll never notice the difference.

But no, you're noat going to hear the original master soundtrack in typical use. Slight rate conversions, application of audio watermark, etcetera. It can sound transparent to the source, certainly, but the original soundtrack's samples aren't going to pass over your HDMI.

That said, you couldn't pick out the difference in double-blind testing.

Any insider..

In what state (digital/analog/waveform/samples/bits/codec/etc) is the audio portion of a film, before the film is transferred to a digital master?

Who performs the transfer from film to digital master?

At encoding time, are the video and audio portions from the digital master encoded simultaneously?

Paidgeek, granted full HD extras would be nice, but the current Fox/MGM practice of
$39.99 titles with no extras is basically just slapping consumers in the face for supporting the format.

A great example is Rocky, where a 2 disc SD set full of extras was released, followed a week or two later by a featureless BD release retailing for 40 bucks. The debate over whether or not some studios should really be charging 39.99 for titles in the first place is one thing, but to charge that for titles with not a single decent supplement is flat-out taking advantage of your customer base.
I missed the question here. Is it, why are BDs too expensive? Is it, because you get 6 times the resolution over standard DVDs, does that makes it worthwhile to charge $40 for a title with no extras? Either way, those are good questions to have answered. ;)

For a 98 minute title, there'd be more than enough space for the video on on HD DVD-30 with TrueHD audio, even with a fair amount of extras.

Thanks Ben,

Given the relatively low bitrate ceiling of HD-DVD, would you anticipate any quality hits in the process of re-encoding for HD-DVD?

I'm guessing that the Disney encoding would likely have run full bore bitrate for everything simply because BD would probably allow it. I'm presuming that an encode targeted for HD-DVD might have a more focused bitrate budget. Hence my question.

Thanks

Ben,

Using MS' VC-1 encoder, if a studio encodes a title and indicates to the encoder that it can use X as the maximum peak bitrate allowable and Y as the maximum average bitrate allowable, will the encoder use those maximum allocations or will the encoder simply apply its algorithms such that if the title can be encoded with a much lesser maximum peak bitrate and much lesser maximum average bitrate to achieve a certain level of quality (whatever error/cost functions are applied) then it will do so?

Not sure if that was clear or not :)

Thanks for the feedback. King Kong turned out very well using VC1.

Do you have any insight as to why Fox decided to use BD-25 for Dances with Wolves?

I confirmed with Fox that DWW will be a BD-50, so no worries. The information online must have been a simple typo.

Forgive me if I missed it, but I have not heard a firm answer on this yet:

Is the PS3 capable of playing back 720p BD-ROM at 1080i? (I don't know if there are any 720p BD-ROMs in existence yet, but I do know that there are 720p HD DVDs.)

Forgive me if I missed it, but I have not heard a firm answer on this yet:

Is the PS3 capable of playing back 720p BD-ROM at 1080i? (I don't know if there are any 720p BD-ROMs in existence yet, but I do know that there are 720p HD DVDs.)

I am not aware of any BD titles encoded at 720p either. The PS3 will not currently upsample from 720p to 1080i, but scaling capabilities via a future update are not out of the question.

Thx paidgeek.

The plan I was originally chasing was to just get out the DTS change. Alas, we need to update many other things and didnt' want to go through multiple releases to do that. So we are rolling them all up into one release. This still doesn't put it too far in the future, but it is not coming out today either. I aprpeciate your patience and hopefully there will be rewards for getting a more comprehensive release out there, than just upgrading the audio (yes, I know this is the most asked request :)).

Amir, some of your previous comments have cause a good deal of confusion/concern, could you please clarify the situation with this?

Does MS understand/acknowledge that there's a problem with DD+ playback on the 360 (crushed dynamics)? And that this is unique to DD+, ie it doesn't apply to DTHD or DTS tracks?
Is MS addressing said DD+ problem, specifically, with the forthcoming update, or just swapping DTS for DD?

Xbox Insiders,

Can you guys please comment on the following article:
Xbox 360's Seriously Flawed DVD Playback (http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1697,2088537,00.asp)

If you would prefer snippets from the article I can also post those.

Thanks,
Z

Amir, Ben

Why did Paramount choose AVC on HD DVD for Babel?

Putting aside the format war for a moment.


What further benefits can future increases in processing power bring to codec efficiency? Could a huge leap in processing power allow for anything new, maybe even quasi procedural, types of decoding which would have a material effect on file size, bit rates and quality?

I am not aware of any BD titles encoded at 720p either. The PS3 will not currently upsample from 720p to 1080i, but scaling capabilities via a future update are not out of the question.

Any word of the black and white clipping getting fixed via firmware?

I am not aware of any BD titles encoded at 720p either. The PS3 will not currently upsample from 720p to 1080i, but scaling capabilities via a future update are not out of the question.
Project PAPO is a 720p BD.

So the major firmware update that is supposed to be coming in March and is supposed to be fix everything that is wrong with the system won't address any of the scaler issues?

To all Insiders,

I have a few format-neutral questions that might appear strange at first. As we're entering the HD era and rules are being rewritten, I'm wondering if companies are taking into account environmental causes and global warning, in order to reduce hard-to-recycle materials and power consumption.

1. I'd like to know if CE manufacturers are evaluating (for instance in BD/HD DVD players or AV receivers) remote controls which can be recharged through a USB cable -- like the PS3 Sixaxis controller -- and that would reduce our use of AA disposable batteries, which are notoriously tough to recycle.

2. Can we expect an increased use of flash memory in players and devices, which could allow us to completely turn off a machine -- instead of merely putting it in stand-by mode -- without losing our settings and the Resume functions once the power is back on?

3. There are quite a lot of DVDs still out there. Do the studios have recycling programs for their unsold discs which will never be put back in the market for whatever reason?

I'm talking about CE and physical formats. Let's put aside the subject of digital downloads.

Tkanks,

Hi Paidgeek

I currently have "Silent Hill" on DVD prefaced by a Universal logo but when I check the specs on the Bluray disc it says Sony Pictures publishes the movie. I thought Universal and Sony Pictures were different companies both supporting different HD formats.
Sorry for my ignorance, could you please explain to me why there is a difference here?

Also the DVD transfer suffers from some awful artifacts when dissolving to black which appears to be a major complaint of the Bluray release. I remember reading somewhere that the director was "unhappy" with the DVD release.
Is this a problem with the original master?

Considering that some of the initial Bluray releases appeared to have picture quality issues, how realistic is it to expect Sony to re-release them with a better quality?
NB: The Fifth Element and House of Flying Daggers not included as you have already mentioned these in previous posts.

Reposting since previous link did not work.
----------
Xbox Insiders,

Can you guys please comment on the following article:
Xbox 360's Seriously Flawed DVD Playback (http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1697,2088537,00.asp)

If you would prefer snippets from the article I can also post those.

Thanks,
Z

Reposting since previous link did not work.
----------
Xbox Insiders,

Can you guys please comment on the following article:
Xbox 360's Seriously Flawed DVD Playback (http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1697,2088537,00.asp)

If you would prefer snippets from the article I can also post those.

Thanks,
Z
I too am curious, it would seem the 360 certainly has the GPU muscle to post-process the DVD video in much the same way a PC can, and ATI's GPUs in the PC world score ~120 in HQV tests.

Amir, Ben

Why did Paramount choose AVC on HD DVD for Babel?
Paramount did not make the decision. Their post house did. The AVC encoder does a good job of filtering out noise so its encode in these cases doesn't need as much optimization. We preserve the grain/noise so at the same rate, one needs to spend a bit more time optimizing. The call was made to go with the AVC encode as a result.

We are not happy about such trade offs but it works the way it does.

Putting aside the format war for a moment.


What further benefits can future increases in processing power bring to codec efficiency? Could a huge leap in processing power allow for anything new, maybe even quasi procedural, types of decoding which would have a material effect on file size, bit rates and quality?
The decoders cannot be changed either in HD DVD or BD. So the ship has sailed on those. The only benefit therefore is in the encoder, where we can use faster PCs to encode more optimally, or tune the content faster/cheaper.

Also, it is not clear that this kind of processing power allows much more efficient coding. But if it does, the first place you see it, is on a PC, not a consumer electronic device where it takes half a decade sometime to get a format established and into market....

Paramount did not make the decision. Their post house did. The AVC encoder does a good job of filtering out noise so its encode in these cases doesn't need as much optimization. We preserve the grain/noise so at the same rate, one needs to spend a bit more time optimizing. The call was made to go with the AVC encode as a result.

We are not happy about such trade offs but it works the way it does.


Is this a one timer or can we expect future Paramount HD DVD titles to be on AVC also?

Dear Insiders,

Is there any relationship between delays in new HD DVD title anouncements from Warner and Paramount, the issue of simultaneous BD and HD DVD title releases, and delays in readiness of BD-J interractive?

If there is any relationship at all, would it be possible to elaborate at least a little?

If there is no relationship at all, would it be possible to state that clearly.

Lastly, do Warner's THD plans factor into current release schedules of any studios (possibly causing titles to slip)?

If so, would it be possible to elaborate a little?

Thanks very much -- Trevor

I see my questions have not been responded to -- is that because they are considered "hot potatoes"? Or because they were simply overlooked?

TIA -- Trevor

The decoders cannot be changed either in HD DVD or BD. So the ship has sailed on those. The only benefit therefore is in the encoder, where we can use faster PCs to encode more optimally, or tune the content faster/cheaper.

Also, it is not clear that this kind of processing power allows much more efficient coding. But if it does, the first place you see it, is on a PC, not a consumer electronic device where it takes half a decade sometime to get a format established and into market....


Sorry Amirm,

I should have been more clear. I was thinking about the future. Going forward how much benefit can you get by extra horsepower on the decoder side?

Paramount did not make the decision. Their post house did. The AVC encoder does a good job of filtering out noise so its encode in these cases doesn't need as much optimization. We preserve the grain/noise so at the same rate, one needs to spend a bit more time optimizing. The call was made to go with the AVC encode as a result.

We are not happy about such trade offs but it works the way it does.


So if I read you correctly the post house has decided to filter this movie via specific codec to make it more palatible to the masses by reducing grain/noise. This does not bode well for purist as we want "transparent releases" from both formats. Is this reading correct? I do not know if the AVC codec addresses the problem as you stated and would like more of a laymans information . Thank you.

Xbox Insiders,

Can you guys please comment on the following article:
Xbox 360's Seriously Flawed DVD Playback (http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1697,2088537,00.asp)

If you would prefer snippets from the article I can also post those.

Thanks,
Z

I'd also be curious how those Xbox 360 DVD player results could come up much worse than these older tests: Microsoft - Xbox 360 DVD Benchmark (http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-bin/shootout.cgi?articles=125&function=search)

Conclusions

The Xbox 360 is a pretty good DVD player, given its primary purpose. Its performance is pretty close to the average DVD player at this price point,

Given that the 360 standard DVD player has supposedly been updated and improved since it's original release why would a later test come up with worse results unless the tests are very different or the standard player somehow became worse?

Question for paidgeek,

I see that periodically you answer PS3 questions.

Theorectical question, could the PS3 handle DVD-Audio disks?

The PS3 has TrueHD support which is another name for MLP. It seems to me that with appropriate software (of which Sony is unlikely to ever release) the PS3 could read DVD-A disks. Or is there something hardware'ish that would stop that?

Shame really, DVD-A PS3 support would be super cool for listening to high-res Eagles, Queen, Who, etc disks that were released.

Dennis.

Question for paidgeek,

I see that periodically you answer PS3 questions.

Theorectical question, could the PS3 handle DVD-Audio disks?

The PS3 has TrueHD support which is another name for MLP. It seems to me that with appropriate software (of which Sony is unlikely to ever release) the PS3 could read DVD-A disks. Or is there something hardware'ish that would stop that?

Shame really, DVD-A PS3 support would be super cool for listening to high-res Eagles, Queen, Who, etc disks that were released.

Dennis.
While you are at it, why don't you ask him if they can also support HD DVD? The codecs are the same for that too :p. SACD may be dead but they are not going to walk on its grave by supporting DVD-A....

So if I read you correctly the post house has decided to filter this movie via specific codec to make it more palatible to the masses by reducing grain/noise. This does not bode well for purist as we want "transparent releases" from both formats. Is this reading correct? I do not know if the AVC codec addresses the problem as you stated and would like more of a laymans information . Thank you.
Well, it is not as bad as filtering the source outside of the codec. But yes, the loop filter in AVC winds up touching every pixel (and some even twice). This gets rid of some noise so if you are a purist like we are, you may not like the effect much. But many people will probably not care especially if never see the source.

Is this a one timer or can we expect future Paramount HD DVD titles to be on AVC also?
As I mentioned, this is more likely to happen on noisy titles. So as a general rule, you are going to continue to see majority of titles in VC-1 on HD DVD.

Sorry Amirm,

I should have been more clear. I was thinking about the future. Going forward how much benefit can you get by extra horsepower on the decoder side?
With HD DVD/BD? None. They are fixed and the focus in the future will be cheaper/lower power implementations, not using more MIPS.

Outside of these formats, as I mentioned, it is possible that new codecs would come about that use the extra horsepower. But I suspect they are at least 5 years away from market introduction.

Question for paidgeek,

I see that periodically you answer PS3 questions.

Theorectical question, could the PS3 handle DVD-Audio disks?

The PS3 has TrueHD support which is another name for MLP. It seems to me that with appropriate software (of which Sony is unlikely to ever release) the PS3 could read DVD-A disks. Or is there something hardware'ish that would stop that?

Shame really, DVD-A PS3 support would be super cool for listening to high-res Eagles, Queen, Who, etc disks that were released.

Dennis.

I'm not sure if there is anything specific about the DVD-A format that could not be dealt with in PS3 if SCEI chose to try decoding it. The specs for Dolby THD are essentially the same, so it should be possible.

Well, it is not as bad as filtering the source outside of the codec. But yes, the loop filter in AVC winds up touching every pixel (and some even twice). This gets rid of some noise so if you are a purist like we are, you may not like the effect much. But many people will probably not care especially if never see the source.

I encourage the members to take a close look at "Casino Royale" and "Pursuit of Happyness". Then compare these to your favorite HD-DVD titles and judge which one looks like it is representing real film grain. If you have an A2 or XA2, be sure to try using the pause button now and again. Pursuit is particularly grainy and it comes through very well.

Question for MS, isn't the loop filter in the VC-1 decoder also always on? Is there an encoder flag that allows it to be turned off?

I believed that MPEG4/AVC actually had to Synthesis "Film Grain" as it would soften the overall picture in areas of scratches, grain, etc.

So do you mean the real "actual" film grain, or MPEG4 generated film grain?

Well, it is not as bad as filtering the source outside of the codec. But yes, the loop filter in AVC winds up touching every pixel (and some even twice). This gets rid of some noise so if you are a purist like we are, you may not like the effect much. But many people will probably not care especially if never see the source.

Are they going to be using FGT by any chance?

A couple of pages back a fellow forummer offered up that Region B Blu-ray cases are fat because leaflet material may larger for Europe (multiple languages etc etc).

I'd like to protest that here in Australia we only speak English yet we are saddled with these fat-a** Blu-ray cases. I object your honour!! The US style thin cases are much MUCH nicer.

Is there any chance that the Blu-ray studios will revert to thin cases in Region B, especially here in Australia? Please, pretty please. Obesity is just plain bad :)

Dennis.

Are they going to be using FGT by any chance?
Not that I have heard. There has been a couple of experimentations but no usage. Only the Thomson AVC encoder supports that as far as I know so that limits usage also.

FGT probably has more use below 10 mbit/sec than the space we live in and only selectively so.

Question for MS, isn't the loop filter in the VC-1 decoder also always on? Is there an encoder flag that allows it to be turned off?
The VC-1 filter is under the control of the compressionist in the encoder. If you turn it on in the encoder, it will likewise be on in the decoder. Otherwise not. And unlike the AVC kernel, even when on, it only touches a single pixels on the boundary of the block. It will not go deep into the block as AVC does, and over-filter in all four directions. Given the fact that it is adaptive in its strength, the VC-1 filter is left on usually. But per above, it does not have to be that way.

I'm not sure if there is anything specific about the DVD-A format that could not be dealt with in PS3 if SCEI chose to try decoding it. The specs for Dolby THD are essentially the same, so it should be possible.
Actually, handling the DVD-A stream requires lots of fresh code (to parse the menus and such) but more importantly, additional royalty checks to be written to people. So it definitely is a non-trivial decision for your folks there.

Now if I could only figure out why I am lending you a hand for not implemeting this, I would be all set. :)

Actually, handling the DVD-A stream requires lots of fresh code (to parse the menus and such) but more importantly, additional royalty checks to be written to people. So it definitely is a non-trivial decision for your folks there.

Now if I could only figure out why I am lending you a hand for not implemeting this, I would be all set. :)

Can you lend Toshiba a hand in getting DVD-A working on my XA-1?

As I mentioned, this is more likely to happen on noisy titles. So as a general rule, you are going to continue to see majority of titles in VC-1 on HD DVD.

So are you saying that instead of maintaining the grain and thus being faithful to the master, Paramount post houses rather take out the grain with AVC to produce a more "HD" like picture?

What is their reasoning for removing the grain?

A question to Keith:

I'm desperately waiting for a standalone media player device which can playback H.264 and VC-1 content (I mainly need H.264 for my recorded HDTV broadcasts here in Germany). Are you aware of any such media player devices which are available today using your chips? Or maybe some which are coming out very soon?

Thanks!

Can you lend Toshiba a hand in getting DVD-A working on my XA-1?
We could. But our focus is to build better and better HD DVD players. Other companies I am sure will build HD DVD players with DVD-A functionality. They would be more expensive but that is it should be. To do DVD-A justice, you need more than just playback software.

So are you saying that instead of maintaining the grain and thus being faithful to the master, Paramount post houses rather take out the grain with AVC to produce a more "HD" like picture?

What is their reasoning for removing the grain?
Again, they are not trying to "take out the grain." It just happens the way AVC codec works. The level of grain reduction is dynamic and not like a normal filter. So the effect is not as bad as you might think.

Again, they are not trying to "take out the grain." It just happens the way AVC codec works. The level of grain reduction is dynamic and not like a normal filter. So the effect is not as bad as you might think.

What is it then that they are "trying" to do? If I understand you correctly, you are saying that one "effect" of the codec is to remove grain, but that grain reduction is not a purpose or a goal. Perhaps you can appreciate why this is somewhat hard for us non-insiders to follow?

I encourage the members to take a close look at "Casino Royale" and "Pursuit of Happyness". Then compare these to your favorite HD-DVD titles and judge which one looks like it is representing real film grain. If you have an A2 or XA2, be sure to try using the pause button now and again. Pursuit is particularly grainy and it comes through very well.

Sounds like you are getting good results on those two titles. So congrats on that. But sadly, members would have no opportunity to know how much better those titles would have looked with VC-1. Or how they compare to the masters.

I am also a bit unclear about your comment. Are you saying that those two titles are the first time you have achieved good grain representation? Or that you have already achieved the same in titles you have published so far? Because if you are talking about existing titles, I see a lot of compression artifacts in the grain if I pause the player (and even when I don’t), let alone having them look like natural. And this is despite the much higher data rate you use for your encodes compared to HD DVD. My professional SLR camera is itching to pause the PS3 on many of them to show how real they look :). But out of professional courtesy I have not done so. One of the members did post some pictures though: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=781777 (yes, I have easily verified his observations).

What is it then that they are "trying" to do? If I understand you correctly, you are saying that one "effect" of the codec is to remove grain, but that grain reduction is not a purpose or a goal. Perhaps you can appreciate why this is somewhat hard for us non-insiders to follow?
Sorry to not be clear :). The topic is rather complicated to boil down to simple words. But let me try again.

We are talking about two very different filters here. A grain reduction filter attempts to take out the grain from the picture by searching for random high frequency content and removing it no matter what. When it is done, the picture is more or less devoid of grain but also loses some of its picture detail.

The AVC filter however, is adaptive and its aim isn’t to remove grain, but to soften blocking errors. In areas of the picture which are easier to encode, the filter will not be applied. Or if it is applied, it will be at lower strength. So the overall look will not be the same as filtering the entire image uniformly as a standard grain filter. A static scene for example, will have all of its grain after a few frames have passed, unlike the de-noising filter which softens those frames also.

Let me see if I can use an audio example. Have you noticed that a good FM radio when listening to a far away radio station will just roll off the highs when the signal fades, unlike the older radios which got really scratchy due to "multipath" distortion (reflection of the FM signal from large objects, confusing the receiver)? The FM receiver is using dynamic distortion management to create a more pleasing experience by rolling off the highs where most of the multipath distortion resides. It is not rolling off the highs all the time as when the signal gets stronger, the filter is turned off or reduced in strength. Such is the case with AVC.

It is true that in the extreme cases, AVC probably degenerates into a noise filter as the entire frame will be difficult for it to encode (and probably works worse than a well designed noise filter). Kind of like if you listened to that above radio station in a border line location all the time. But in other cases, it has a dynamic behavior which your eye may or may not notice as well it can with a normal grain filter which would apply to every frame of video (assuming it is all noisy).

Sorry to not be clear :). The topic is rather complicated to boil down to simple words. But let me try again.

We are talking about two very different filters here. A grain reduction filter attempts to take out the grain from the picture by searching for random high frequency content and removing it no matter what. When it is done, the picture is more or less devoid of grain but also loses some of its picture detail.

The AVC filter however, is adaptive and its aim isn’t to remove grain, but to soften blocking errors. In areas of the picture which are easier to encode, the filter will not be applied. Or if it is applied, it will be at lower strength. So the overall look will not be the same as filtering the entire image uniformly as a standard grain filter. A static scene for example, will have all of its grain after a few frames have passed, unlike the de-noising filter which softens those frames also.

Let me see if I can use an audio example. Have you noticed that a good FM radio when listening to a far away radio station will just roll off the highs when the signal fades, unlike the older radios which got really scratchy due to "multipath" distortion (reflection of the FM signal from large objects, confusing the receiver)? The FM receiver is using dynamic distortion management to create a more pleasing experience by rolling off the highs where most of the multipath distortion resides. It is not rolling off the highs all the time as when the signal gets stronger, the filter is turned off or reduced in strength. Such is the case with AVC.

It is true that in the extreme cases, AVC probably degenerates into a noise filter as the entire frame will be difficult for it to encode (and probably works worse than a well designed noise filter). Kind of like if you listened to that above radio station in a border line location all the time. But in other cases, it has a dynamic behavior which your eye may or may not notice as well it can with a normal grain filter which would apply to every frame of video (assuming it is all noisy).

Thanks for trying to make things clearer. I'm afraid that for me at least, the radio station analogy doesn't help to clear things up; it's trying to explain something that I don't understand by using an analogy that I understand even less than the thing that is being explained.

To return to the subject at hand, you say that the goal of the aspect of AVC that may have the unintended effect of removing grain is to "soften blocking errors." It is not so clear to this non-insider why a better response would not be to rectify blocking errors rather than softening them? But I am sure I am probably not understanding the problem you are referring to. Perhaps you might clarify some more?

To return to the subject at hand, you say that the goal of the aspect of AVC that may have the unintended effect of removing grain is to "soften blocking errors." It is not so clear to this non-insider why a better response would not be to rectify blocking errors rather than softening them? But I am sure I am probably not understanding the problem you are referring to. Perhaps you might clarify some more?
Well, the way to rectify blocking errors is to use VC-1 :). And some hand tuning to give those blocks more bits (or optimize them differently) as to avoid the block noise to start (and if one cannot, at least not over filter them). I am explaining what happens if you want to rely on more automatic encoding with AVC. I was not trying to defend that it was a good thing.

So you are understanding the problem well :). We like to encourage people to spend a bit more time getting everything that is on the master, noise and all. Relying on AVC loop filter crutch in these situations is not the best thing in our opinion. But we don’t pay the bills for the encoding time so folks make other decisions sometimes (with best intentions of course – getting you more HD sooner).

Well, the way to rectify blocking errors is to use VC-1 :). And some hand tuning to give those blocks more bits (or optimize them differently) as to avoid the block noise to start (and if one cannot, at least not over filter them). I am explaining what happens if you want to rely on more automatic encoding with AVC. I was not trying to defend that it was a good thing.

So you are understanding the problem well :). We like to encourage people to spend a bit more time getting everything that is on the master, noise and all. Relying on AVC loop filter crutch in these situations is not the best thing in our opinion. But we don’t pay the bills for the encoding time so folks make other decisions sometimes (with best intentions of course – getting you more HD sooner).

Thanks for your patience. I think most of the non-insiders here would agree that it is desirable "to spend a bit more time getting everything that is on the master, noise and all."

Sounds like you are getting good results on those two titles. So congrats on that. But sadly, members would have no opportunity to know how much better those titles would have looked with VC-1. Or how they compare to the masters.

I am also a bit unclear about your comment. Are you saying that those two titles are the first time you have achieved good grain representation? Or that you have already achieved the same in titles you have published so far? Because if you are talking about existing titles, I see a lot of compression artifacts in the grain if I pause the player (and even when I don’t), let alone having them look like natural. And this is despite the much higher data rate you use for your encodes compared to HD DVD. My professional SLR camera is itching to pause the PS3 on many of them to show how real they look :). But out of professional courtesy I have not done so. One of the members did post some pictures though: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=781777 (yes, I have easily verified his observations).

I mentioned "Casino Royale" and "Pursuit of Happyness" because those are some of the first live action titles we have released that use AVC. The generalization made that AVC reduces or removes grain is incorrect, these titles demonstrate that. Our earlier titles using MPEG2 have been repeatedly shown to preserve film grain when comapared side by side with the original master tape and having bandwidth in Blu-ray is an key reason why this is possible, regardless of codec.

I mentioned "Casino Royale" and "Pursuit of Happyness" because those are some of the first live action titles we have released that use AVC. The generalization made that AVC reduces or removes grain is incorrect, these titles demonstrate that. Our earlier titles using MPEG2 have been repeatedly shown to preserve film grain when comapared side by side with the original master tape and having bandwidth in Blu-ray is an key reason why this is possible, regardless of codec.

So I take it Pursuit of Happines is day and date with the DVD, and it will be encoded in AVC, cool.

Well, the way to rectify blocking errors is to use VC-1 :). And some hand tuning to give those blocks more bits (or optimize them differently) as to avoid the block noise to start (and if one cannot, at least not over filter them). I am explaining what happens if you want to rely on more automatic encoding with AVC. I was not trying to defend that it was a good thing.

So you are understanding the problem well :). We like to encourage people to spend a bit more time getting everything that is on the master, noise and all. Relying on AVC loop filter crutch in these situations is not the best thing in our opinion. But we don’t pay the bills for the encoding time so folks make other decisions sometimes (with best intentions of course – getting you more HD sooner).


How much time would say they saved by sticking with AVC vs using VC-1 and doing some hand tuning on top of that?

Also, has this particular posthouse produced VC-1 titles prior?

Sorry, all, I see lots of unanswered questions for me; I haven't been able to visit here for most of the last week due to very busy work and personal schedule, but will try to catch up.
This is one of the, erm, rare cases in which Talk is wrongly applying information he happened to come across at CES, at since he liked it so much, has continued to throw it out there whenever the occasion arises without really checking up on it for himself. The ~95% number he has thrown out quite often claiming that it represents the total market share BD holds in Japan is actually limited to the recorder market share. Of course the fact that some of those BD recorders don't play BD-ROM disks doesn't seem to be a factor to him. That's not correct. Here are the top ten selling models from Christmas:
No.1 Panasonic DMR-BW200 56.7％ - Recorder
No.2 Sony BDZ-V9 28.3％ - Recorder
No.3 Panasonic DMR-BW100 7.0％ - Recorder
No.4 Toshiba HD-XF2 2.9％ - Player
No.5 Sony BDZ-V7 2.7％ - Recorder
No.6 Toshiba RD-A1 1.5％ - Recorder
No.7 Toshiba HD-XA2 0.6％ - Player
No.8 Toshiba HD-XA1 0.3％ - Player
All the Blu-ray players listed here fully support BD-ROM playback. And, of course, if you include PS3 sales the numbers would go from 96% to something much closer to 100%.

- Talk

Talk, do you have any rough figures on software sales in Japan so that we can compare what dollars Universal is leaving on the table in Japan ? Ofcourse if someone else can chip in on what companies are leaving on the table in ROW, that would be great too.

My impression is the amounts currently are too small for any company to really bother - it is more of a strategic initiative rather than a revenue stream. Is this correct ?One could argue that the US high-def media installed base is too small (today) to bother with as well, but clearly you've got to start somewhere if you're going to create a market. Data I've seen suggests Blu-ray player sales in Japan are in the same general ballpark as in North America (whether or not you include the PS3, since the PS3 has sold roughly equal numbers in each market), so it's not an insignificant market.

I have asked Talk. Waiting for his answer on another thread. I expect he will say he is not able to comment...which means NO.Not able to comment means not able to comment. When I have knowledge of unannounced upcoming players, titles, or features it's not my place to do the announcing. If I know that Samsung will release a $399 MSRP Blu-ray player on July 1st but that information has not been publicly disclosed, if asked about it my response will necessarily be "I'm not able to comment".

Is Warner specifically holding back titles to wait for BD interactivity to catch up to HD-DVD?Warner execs have previously been quoted as saying they are waiting to release some of their high-profile titles on Blu-ray until they can provide an equivalent IME experience. The PiP aspect of IME will either require using a second encoding (as has been done on The Descent), or waiting for general availability of secondary video support on Blu-ray players.

I would be interested to hear your personal opinion on what it's going to take in terms of # of HW sales to get one or two major studio's to market both HD DVD / Blu-Ray.In terms of what it would take for Fox or Disney to also support HD DVD, I believe it would require a sustained number of HD DVD player sales in the millions per year with healthy annual growth. As long as HD DVD remains a niche the more profitable strategy is to push for a single format and eliminate consumer uncertainty. As long as Blu-ray has a commanding lead, both in terms of player sales and content support, this strategy is viable. I doubt the number of HD DVD households available today justifies the expense of producing titles if there won't be healthy growth going forward.

From the standpoint of what it would take for Universal to support Blu-ray, I think it's less clear. With the ever-widening lead in Blu-ray sales it becomes an increasingly large lost opportunity for Universal. It's certainly possible that their support of Blu-ray would be the death knell for HD DVD as a format, but since Universal doesn't appear to have a significant intellectual property stake in HD DVD's success it's not clear that this would be a deterrent for them as long as the end result is higher sales of their movies.

Warner execs have previously been quoted as saying they are waiting to release some of their high-profile titles on Blu-ray until they can provide an equivalent IME experience. The PiP aspect of IME will either require using a second encoding (as has been done on The Descent), or waiting for general availability of secondary video support on Blu-ray players.

Would it be possible for Warner to make BDs that utilise a second stream and release them now and wait for the hardware to catch up, rather than the other way around.

a couple of threads are buzzing with word that the BDJ advanced authoring tools are not ready for the studios yet, and that a number of HD DVD titles by Warner, and possibly others, are being withheld until the equivalent Bluray versions are ready.

Can you comment on this, please?Studio strategies differ in terms of whether they choose to create their own tools and technologies or prefer to wait for these technologies to mature from other sources. There is significant activity underway, both within traditional production settings and from third-party vendors. In my opinion the technology exists today to recreate any features which have been implemented on HD DVD titles (with the caveat that PiP implementation is currently dependent on tradeoffs between disc capacity and availability of secondary video support), but I can understand that some studios may wish to wait for additional tool and platform maturity before investing in such features.

There are no "advanced authoring tools" for BD-J, I would not expect there to ever be. It is a programming language so it makes little sense to create a fancy GUI based authoring tool that then becomes constrained by what is included as a GUI function. I have to vehemently disagree with you, Paid. There are certainly advanced tools available for MHP and OCAP, which are based on the same Java platform as BD-J (see On-Q Studio (http://www.ensequence.com/products/on-q_create/on-q_studio/) and Cardinal Studio Professional (http://www.cardinal.fi/studio/studio.html) for two examples); you'll see some of these tools available for BD-J in the near future. Content which lends itself to repeatability will work well with this sort of tool; one-off features (i.e. a Space Invaders game) will likely require more direct Java programming.
I suspect authoring companies will continue to grow their current libraries of functions and this will lead to more and more interesting interactive discs over months and years.I do agree with this statement; the code and libraries which production companies are developing today will make future titles that much easier and more efficient.

Would it be possible for Warner to make BDs that utilise a second stream and release them now and wait for the hardware to catch up, rather than the other way around.Perhaps, but they'd risk incompatibility if they don't have a base of production players upon which to test them.

Talk, how does this impact your assertion that BD-J content authoring is lagging due to the complexity of that programming environment, and that it would catch up once authoring tools to to provide some abstraction hit the scene?Higher-level authoring tools will make studios more productive at producing "repeatable" content (i.e. an environment or specific features which are similar across multiple titles). Pushing the boundaries on new features won't benefit from higher-level tools so much as simply the production community gaining experience with low-level tools and platform capabilities. That learning is rapidly taking place, as will be shown by innovative new features under development.

Perhaps, but they'd risk incompatibility if they don't have a base of production players upon which to test them.

Makes sense.

Can you provide some overview of how the BD-J system works? Or can you refer me to any publicly available documentation?See "BD-J Baseline Application and Logical Model Definition for BD-ROM" available from the Blu-ray Disc Public Specifications" page (http://www.blu-raydisc.com/Section-13470/Section-13890/Index.html) and "White Paper" BD ROM - Audio Visual Appliation Format Specifications" available from the Blu-ray Disc Technical White Papers page (http://www.blu-raydisc.com/Section-13470/Section-13628/Index.html). Also the Interactive TV Web site (http://www.interactivetvweb.org/) and related book have good background on the underlying Java technologies.
Who designed the feature set and the associated API?The underlying Java pieces were developed within the Java Community Process (http://www.jcp.org). The GEM (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Globally_Executable_MHP) pieces were developed within Digital Video Broadcast (http://www.dvb.org) (DVB). The BD-J pieces were developed within the Blu-ray Disc Association (http://www.blu-raydisc.com). Each of these organizations are comprised of hundreds of companies who collaborate to create industry specifications and standards.
Is there a VM (virtual machine) in the BD players to run the java code similar to more mainstream java applications? Or does the java get compiled to a specific embedded OS requiring all manufacturers to implement the same in their players? If the implementation is VM based, who develops the VMs? Are there different VMs for the different brands of players?Each Blu-ray player has a Java virtual machine similar to that on your desktop, but based on Java ME (Micro Edition) rather than SE (Standard Edition). Vendors may choose to license their VM's from a number of companies (Sun, IBM, Esmertec, etc.) or develop it themselves.
Can you also tell me if the BD supporting studios are working together to develop and standardize reusable java libraries for BD-J development? Does the BDA help coordinate these development efforts between the BD studios? Or is it every studio for themselves as to how they implement their BD-J?Studios generally use production companies to create the interactive content. Production companies include Deluxe, Technicolor, Panasonic Hollywood Labs, and others. These companies in turn often work with other companies who have specific software development expertise. Many of these companies do work for multiple studios, so you can assume that tools developed in the creation of a title for one studio are probably going to be used for other studios as well (unless there is a specific agreement banning that practice). For the most part the community works very cooperatively today, as there is more than enough business to go around and everyone is interested in seeing progress in the format. In time I'd expect the companies to become more competitive with one another and for there to be less sharing of knowledge.

Hope this provides some useful background and insight...

- Talk

For the PS3 will there be any streaming from a pcIt's being done today using the built-in web browser, it can certainly be implemented is Sony chooses to do so (which I expect they will).
also right now any external hard disk and only be formated Fat32, which sucks do to the 4 gig file limit.This can also be remedied (and booting Linux on the PS3 would allow support for other filesystems).
Roxio dvdit Hd produces a BDMV folder when creating a Blu-ray home movie this does not play back on the ps3, will this be included with a firmware update.I expect this to be the case. It can be done today with custom firmware (for developers).

Just FYI that Warner has a formal response to recent set of questions on title availability for this year. They are supplying it to those people who contacted them through the petition site (http://www.hdnowonline.com/). Apparently they got some 40 emails from them :). I have seen the reply but I am trying to find out if they want me to post it here or not.

Just FYI that Warner has a formal response to recent set of questions on title availability for this year. They are supplying it to those people who contacted them through the petition site (http://www.hdnowonline.com/). Apparently they got some 40 emails from them :). I have seen the reply but I am trying to find out if they want me to post it here or not.
Cool. Looking forward to it. If you can't post it here, please tell us where else we can find it.

See "BD-J Baseline Application and Logical Model Definition for BD-ROM" available from the Blu-ray Disc Public Specifications" page (http://www.blu-raydisc.com/Section-13470/Section-13890/Index.html) and "White Paper" BD ROM - Audio Visual Appliation Format Specifications" available from the Blu-ray Disc Technical White Papers page (http://www.blu-raydisc.com/Section-13470/Section-13628/Index.html). Also the Interactive TV Web site (http://www.interactivetvweb.org/) and related book have good background on the underlying Java technologies.
The underlying Java pieces were developed within the Java Community Process (http://www.jcp.org). The GEM (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Globally_Executable_MHP) pieces were developed within Digital Video Broadcast (http://www.dvb.org) (DVB). The BD-J pieces were developed within the Blu-ray Disc Association (http://www.blu-raydisc.com). Each of these organizations are comprised of hundreds of companies who collaborate to create industry specifications and standards.
Each Blu-ray player has a Java virtual machine similar to that on your desktop, but based on Java ME (Micro Edition) rather than SE (Standard Edition). Vendors may choose to license their VM's from a number of companies (Sun, IBM, Esmertec, etc.) or develop it themselves.
Studios generally use production companies to create the interactive content. Production companies include Deluxe, Technicolor, Panasonic Hollywood Labs, and others. These companies in turn often work with other companies who have specific software development expertise. Many of these companies do work for multiple studios, so you can assume that tools developed in the creation of a title for one studio are probably going to be used for other studios as well (unless there is a specific agreement banning that practice). For the most part the community works very cooperatively today, as there is more than enough business to go around and everyone is interested in seeing progress in the format. In time I'd expect the companies to become more competitive with one another and for there to be less sharing of knowledge.

Hope this provides some useful background and insight...

- Talk

Thanks Talk!

You know what they say. Better to beg for forgiveness than ask for permission. :p
It is too late unfortunately :p. Sort of like to get data like this in the future hence the reason I asked :).

I am told the response will go out on Monday to the letter writers who I am sure will then post it here...

40 e-mails? I am surprised they bothered to respond, or that they even noticed such a small number.
40 emails is a lot when you're talking about a "reaction of the people" type thing. For instance, it's an oft quoted line that a member of congress takes a letter or email from one of her/his constituents to represent 10,000 of the people that vote for him/her. People just don't take the time to contact representatives about stuff, even regarding a life and death matter like which HD optical movie format wins out.

Question for amir to justify this post: Do you think you could follow up on Adam Gregorich's, the HTF admin who did the interview with Universal about their release plans, attempt to get further release dates? The last contact he had with them was on Friday and they said they were "ironing out" the details. If you're able, please keep on them so we can get those additional details sometime this week. Thanks!
http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/showthread.php?p=3078523#post3078523

Amir,
I'm a bigtime HD-DVD supporter. I think it's a superior product in virtually every way and I think you're doing a wonderful job keeping the candle lit and letting us AVSers know whats going on.

I think Bluray also has a wonderful strategy in the PS3 trojan horse as evidenced by their movie sales explosion.

However, I believe that Sony's business model has a serious flaw: Their goals are more in line with their own interests than that of their customers. For example, I believe that if there were no competition to bluray, we would likely be stuck with a very overpriced and under-performing next gen DVD player. Conversely, I believe that Microsoft's business plan is more along the lines of attaining success through satisfying customers. That is, if hd-dvd were in the same no competition environment, the players would likely still advance at the current pace.

It's mainly for this reason that I'm finding myself concerned. Everyday I log-on to my tech news sites hoping for the latest HD-DVD info and rarely find any. When I go to blockbuster to rent an HD-DVD or retailer to buy one, the conversations around the movie section among customers are invariably the same:

Person 1: "whats the difference between these types of movies?"
Person 2: " they're pretty much the same, but these (points to bluray movies) are going to end up winning because all the studios are only supporting them."

I think that without HD-DVD we would all be at the mercy of Sony for next gen movies and this just shouldn't happen. My fear is that public perception may sway this battle. Amir, Please don't let that happen.

Simply put, more money and time needs to go into PR.

Amir,
I'm a bigtime HD-DVD supporter. I think it's a superior product in virtually every way and I think you're doing a wonderful job keeping the candle lit and letting us AVSers know whats going on.

I think Bluray also has a wonderful strategy in the PS3 trojan horse as evidenced by their movie sales explosion.

However, I believe that Sony's business model has a serious flaw: Their goals are more in line with their own interests than that of their customers. For example, I believe that if there were no competition to bluray, we would likely be stuck with a very overpriced and under-performing next gen DVD player. Conversely, I believe that Microsoft's business plan is more along the lines of attaining success through satisfying customers. That is, if hd-dvd were in the same no competition environment, the players would likely still advance at the current pace.

It's mainly for this reason that I'm finding myself concerned. Everyday I log-on to my tech news sites hoping for the latest HD-DVD info and rarely find any. When I go to blockbuster to rent an HD-DVD or retailer to buy one, the conversations around the movie section among customers are invariably the same:

Person 1: "whats the difference between these types of movies?"
Person 2: " they're pretty much the same, but these (points to bluray movies) are going to end up winning because all the studios are only supporting them."

I think that without HD-DVD we would all be at the mercy of Sony for next gen movies and this just shouldn't happen. My fear is that public perception may sway this battle. Amir, Please don't let that happen.

Simply put, more money and time needs to go into PR.
First, thanks for the strong support and feedback. It is much appreciated.

We are certainly aware of the importance of public perception. At the same time, for us, it will always be a war of execution, not a war of words. But we are aware that some balance needs to be there. Some of our partners are addressing this (such as Toshiba superbowl ad campaign). And there will be more.

At the same time, both technologies are out of the reach of general consumers still. So we are fighting for small set of customers. We must do more to broaden this horizon. Otherwise, neither format will go anywhere. On this front, we are already way ahead of BD with much lower priced players and we expect to continue to have that advantage. With strong slate of titles to come this year, we think that combination will carry us nicely.

Question for Amir regarding Vista and hi-def encoding.

According to initial reports from Tom's Hardware, encoding under Vista has take quite a performance hit. Will the first Service Pack due this year address this issue or can it be fixed much sooner??

Link of graphs from Tom's http://www.tomshardware.com/2007/01/29/xp-vs-vista/page5.html

Thanks Ben,

Given the relatively low bitrate ceiling of HD-DVD, would you anticipate any quality hits in the process of re-encoding for HD-DVD?

I'm guessing that the Disney encoding would likely have run full bore bitrate for everything simply because BD would probably allow it. I'm presuming that an encode targeted for HD-DVD might have a more focused bitrate budget. Hence my question.

Thanks

Since I didn't get a response to this question (regarding Disney's "Flight Plan"), I'll try another approach. Does the relatively lower maximum bitrate on HD-DVD result in any problems achieving optimal picture and sound quality while including a typical set of extra content items? If so, does this contribute to the interest in adding 1.5X to the TL51 spec? If not, is their an available explanation for the interest in 1.5X?

Also, if TL51 fails to be adopted by the DVD Forum, does 1.5X remain a serious possibility for the single and double layer discs? Also, would the originally planned TL45 be a likely alternative?

TIA -- Trevor

Dear Insiders,

Is there any relationship between delays in new HD DVD title anouncements from Warner and Paramount, the issue of simultaneous BD and HD DVD title releases, and delays in readiness of BD-J interractive?

If there is any relationship at all, would it be possible to elaborate at least a little?

If there is no relationship at all, would it be possible to state that clearly.

Lastly, do Warner's THD plans factor into current release schedules of any studios (possibly causing titles to slip)?

If so, would it be possible to elaborate a little?

Thanks very much -- Trevor

I see my questions have not been responded to -- is that because they are considered "hot potatoes"? Or because they were simply overlooked?

TIA -- Trevor

Any reaction to the news of a new boss at NBC Universal? I'm assuming this will have no immediate impact on their HD-DVD exclusive stance.

Cheers,
Chris

Amir:
Here is a simple question that must come up from time to time in order to keep us up to date...

We see all the time Fox and Disney's quotes saying they are committed to blu-ray, period. But as far as I can see, their support for BD predates the actual release of both formats. Since then, lots of things have happened (good and bad for both formats). My question is: are those two studios still talking with HD-DVD people? Is there any talk going on? Is the channel open? Can you elaborate a little on this?

I'm asking because studio support seems such a big thing nowadays...

Plus:
How can Microsoft help HD DVD to get more studio support? (not counting with the Xbox add-on)

Since I didn't get a response to this question (regarding Disney's "Flight Plan"), I'll try another approach. Does the relatively lower maximum bitrate on HD-DVD result in any problems achieving optimal picture and sound quality while including a typical set of extra content items? If so, does this contribute to the interest in adding 1.5X to the TL51 spec? If not, is there an available explanation for the interest in 1.5X?
Sorry - I've been on the road the last two weeks, and am only now catching up on AVS.

As amply demonstrated by existing titles, VC-1 is more than sufficient to make great HD DVD titles with various combinations of extras. A higher bitrate might make things a little easier in the authoring process, but isn't something being demanded by any studios as far as I've heard.

Also, if TL51 fails to be adopted by the DVD Forum, does 1.5X remain a serious possibility for the single and double layer discs? Also, would the originally planned TL45 be a likely alternative?
All the above would have to wait for an official proposal to be made to the DVD Forum.

My understanding is that TL51 is really just a refinement of TL45, combining the same three layers with an extra 2 GB per layer.

I see my questions have not been responded to -- is that because they are considered "hot potatoes"? Or because they were simply overlooked?

They're questions about Warner's internal activities, so they'll have to be answered by Warner, or with information that Warner specifically says we can share.

Question for Amir regarding Vista and hi-def encoding.

According to initial reports from Tom's Hardware, encoding under Vista has take quite a performance hit. Will the first Service Pack due this year address this issue or can it be fixed much sooner??

I note that the two slower encodes were coming from DVD sources. Perhaps an issue in the MPEG-2 decoder being used on that machine?

I'm not aware of any general issue with encoding performance in Vista, and I've sure been doing a lot of overnight laptop compression in hotel rooms lately :).

I'll see if I can find some more details.

Higher-level authoring tools will make studios more productive at producing "repeatable" content (i.e. an environment or specific features which are similar across multiple titles). .


Would this address the problem with discs such as "A View from Space" . This disc has only 55 minutes of video yet it has 8 hours of classical music separated by eight themes of music. It has exact chapters inside each theme. So if one moves to a certain chapter one goes to a specfic time code on the disc. The problem is instead of taking you to the next classical movement at its start, one is sent to when-ever the time stamp states ie: 15 minute mark of music from the beginning of play rather than start of movement. This is just one example that I am aware of that as produced now can only be watched through without skipping otherwise the experience suffers. Also it would help if this disc and others like it are able to list spefic info. ie : chapter1 (title 1),( title 2), ;ect, rather than title 1 title 2 title 3 ect. I realize that this is a specialty disc with little budget. I was hoping that this side of the format would have more tools to share.

All the above would have to wait for an official proposal to be made to the DVD Forum.

My understanding is that TL51 is really just a refinement of TL45, combining the same three layers with an extra 2 GB per layer.
Are you suggesting that TL51 doesn't include 1.5X (at least as an option for the time being)? It wasn't clear from your response. I note that Amir has said that Toshiba has indicated to him that the idea is 17x3 + 1.5X.

In truth, I'm not overly concerned about the 1.5X, and in fact if they did go TL, I'd be perfectly happy with TL45. Nonetheless it would be good to have clarification as to what the current intent is (and no, I'm not assuming this will definitely become an official proposal).

You hit the nail in the head, Sony is trying to use BD to monopolize the next gen market and they don't do what's best for the customer. Because of that, I don't think they can win the war outright. Any business decisions who's not going to be for the best interest of the customers usually do not win in the end.

I wouldn't not worry too much about public perception, ask any average Joe who's behind each format and I doubt they know. Even the salesperson on the floor might not know.

The reality is that exclusive title BD probaly leads 4:1 but the rest will be released on both formats. And with Warner coming out with the THD discs and LG coming out with the hybrid player, all signs point to a stalemate, which in my opinion is a win for HD.

From time to time it seems that Sony gets credit, good and bad, for everything related to BD. It should be kept in mind that Sony is only one of many companies that have jointly developed and support Blu-ray. If Sony's Blu-ray products do not serve the customer well, it is certain that one of the other Blu-ray hardware companies will welcome the opportunity to exploit this by potentially doing a better job. I think competition is a good thing for consumers and clearly you don't have to have format war to have healthy competition.

Are you suggesting that TL51 doesn't include 1.5X (at least as an option for the time being)? It wasn't clear from your response. I note that Amir has said that Toshiba has indicated to him that the idea is 17x3 + 1.5X.
In this as in all things, believe Amir over anything I say :).

In truth, I'm not overly concerned about the 1.5X, and in fact if they did go TL, I'd be perfectly happy with TL45. Nonetheless it would be good to have clarification as to what the current intent is (and no, I'm not assuming this will definitely become an official proposal).
Until we see the proposal, it's probably early to speculate too much as to what it will mean. I'm happy with what we can do with the current spec, and there are a lot of efforts underway to improve what we can do without making any changes. So any potential spec improvements will be gravy on top of what's already going on.

Well, the way to rectify blocking errors is to use VC-1 :). And some hand tuning to give those blocks more bits (or optimize them differently) as to avoid the block noise to start (and if one cannot, at least not over filter them). I am explaining what happens if you want to rely on more automatic encoding with AVC. I was not trying to defend that it was a good thing.

So you are understanding the problem well :). We like to encourage people to spend a bit more time getting everything that is on the master, noise and all. Relying on AVC loop filter crutch in these situations is not the best thing in our opinion. But we don’t pay the bills for the encoding time so folks make other decisions sometimes (with best intentions of course – getting you more HD sooner).Is it your position that "Babel" would have been transparent to the source if VC-1 had been used?

I'm sure Paramount could have chosen to have VC-1 if they had wanted to (and gone with the extra time you mentioned, which is money to studios). If Paramount isn't willing to spend the extra time and money for encoding the best for a title that won best picture for dramas at the Golden Globes and was nominated for an Oscar for best picture (and might win), then what movies would they be willing to spend extra time and money for?

If the TL51s with 1.5x spin rate had been available and used for "Babel", would it have resulted in less blocking at one stage with VC-1 than with VC-1 and the current 1.0x spin rate with 30 GB discs, or would VC-1 result in just as much blocking at one stage even with more bits available to it overall?

If your loop filter is better than AVC/MPEG4's look filter, then why wouldn't Paramount and their post house use it if they were going to choose to use a loop filter? Would using VC-1 with the loop filter have cost Paramount more than using AVC/MPEG4 with the loop filter?

--Darin

paidgeek,

The February 4 issue of Home Media Magazine has a 3-page ad on "Spider-man 2.1", which adds 8 more minutes of footage and will be released on DVD on April 17.

Let me put the question in a way that doesn't clash with Sony's marketing policy. If the Blu-ray of Spidey 2 is in the pipeline, would it be fair to assume that it will be based on the upcoming extended cut, and not the original theatrical edition?

paidgeek,

The February 4 issue of Home Media Magazine has a 3-page ad on "Spider-man 2.1", which adds 8 more minutes of footage and will be released on DVD on April 17.

Let me put the question in a way that doesn't clash with Sony's marketing policy. If the Blu-ray of Spidey 2 is in the pipeline, would it be fair to assume that it will be based on the upcoming extended cut, and not the original theatrical edition?

I cannot comment on which one will be released, but maybe you can post elsewhere and see what the members would prefer?

I cannot comment on which one will be released, but maybe you can post elsewhere and see what the members would prefer?

On that connection, paid, have you explored the feasibility of alternate cuts on Blu-ray by using seamless branching? I know Sony doesn't usually resort to seamless branching on DVD (Fox does a lot more of that), and I always wondered why.

I cannot comment on which one will be released, but maybe you can post elsewhere and see what the members would prefer?

Done! :) You can track over here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=800625) the results of the poll.

On a purely theoretical matter, as the additional footage is said to be 8 minutes, would there be sufficient storage capacity to add the extra sequences in seamless branching in the same disc -- like AVP?

Done! :) You can track over here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=800625) the results of the poll.

On a purely theoretical matter, as the additional footage is said to be 8 minutes, would there be sufficient storage capacity to add the extra sequences in seamless branching in the same disc -- like AVP?

I will look into this...

I cannot comment on which one will be released, but maybe you can post elsewhere and see what the members would prefer?

Paid,

Would this be a case where the BR version would be non-region free for another 12 months? Assuming Spiderman 2 was BR, if Spiderman 2.1 was released a year later, it would also be region-restricted for 12 mo?

Just trying to understand the rules?

I'm running authoring company in Warsaw, Poland.
So far we were focused on SD DVD projects but even here local distributors (studios) are about to release their first High Definition titles. People from those companies are asking me about costs and time needed for preparing project for BD or HD-DVD format.
I'm asking you - BD and HD-DVD industry insiders - for a litlle help an I'll be extremely grateful for some useful information about;
1. Encoding and authoring systems (hardware&software) responsible for completing majority of titles (BD and HD-DVD) that were released on the US market so far. Is there any leader - is it Sonic Scenarist HD?
2. Differences in costs (BD vs HD-DVD) for completing all the hardware & software necessary for servicing HD titles. Im not talking about HD video player (which is HDCAM or HDCAM SR in our local reality - D5 in Poland and even in Europe isn't very popular) but only about hardware or software encoders and authoring applications.
3. Technical (encoding/authoring/programming) complexity connected to each format - is there any significant difference in time consuming factor for authoring company for servicing BD and HD-DVD title? What format is easier for adopting?

A very important issue; local independent distributors (local divisions of US big studios is a different issue) are working on small circulations so the authoring cost does matter. Duplication costs are lower for HD-DVD and this is the place where HD-DVD scores when we are talking about small circulation. When I look at UK or France independent distributors HD-DVD becomes their first choice. But on the other hand we can't underestimate the power of BDA supporters so for some of the local studios in terms of money the choice is simply - HD-DVD but some of them still wait for the aend of format war on US ground.

My goal is to invest money and work of my team in format/technology that will survive but on the other hand taking risk is part of the business so I can't wait till the end of the end of format war or invest in both format - my competitors are making their choices right now.
Please give me advice about possible components (encoders, some kind of additional application) that can be suitable for both formats.

Thanks in advance for your help.
Marcin
P.S. Please forgive me my poor English

Just FYI that Warner has a formal response to recent set of questions on title availability for this year. They are supplying it to those people who contacted them through the petition site (http://www.hdnowonline.com/). Apparently they got some 40 emails from them :). I have seen the reply but I am trying to find out if they want me to post it here or not.
Hi Amir - I've been away since Saturday and don't have my PC (some of my email accounts).

I've just logged into AVS today and seen this good news.

I will try to get the email this afternoon, can you just let them know in case they were waiting for a response from me?

Do you know if the reply was a positive one?

Thanks

Hi Amir - I've been away since Saturday and don't have my PC (some of my email accounts).

I've just logged into AVS today and seen this good news.

I will try to get the email this afternoon, can you just let them know in case they were waiting for a response from me?

Do you know if the reply was a positive one?

Thanks
They said they were going to send the response to the people who already contacted them (all 40 of them or so). I expect one of them will then post it here.

As to what the response was, since we are supposed to see the real thing shortly, let's let that speak for itself :).

They said they were going to send the response to the people who already contacted them (all 40 of them or so). I expect one of them will then post it here.

As to what the response was, since we are supposed to see the real thing shortly, let's let that speak for itself :).
Do you know if they were just talking about one email address for the forty?

My tracking service shows that there were nearly 300 different people sending a message via their "Web Form" that I linked? The trouble is that the web form had a pulldown to choose the subject, so some folks may have chosen different topics and the emails gotten scattered into different parts of Warner?

Do you know if they were just talking about one email address for the forty?

My tracking service shows that there were nearly 300 different people sending a message via their "Web Form" that I linked? The trouble is that the web form had a pulldown to choose the subject, so some folks may have chosen different topics and the emails gotten scattered into different parts of Warner?
I think they were going to send responses to everyone seperately. And it is possible a lot more people sent email than the 40 number I heard about.

I think they were going to send responses to everyone seperately. And it is possible a lot more people sent email than the 40 number I heard about.
I didn't get one.
BTW, any word on what happened to the BCI titles?
J

BTW, any word on what happened to the BCI titles?
J
We are chasing the answer. It might take a while on this sort of thing, if we don't have a close relationship with them.

Any of you insiders hear anything in regards to HDMI (video + audio) for PC's? Either motherboards or add-in hardware..

To any of the HD DVD insiders:

Is there any sort of timeframe on the implementation of subtitles available over the internet connection for HD DVD players? Is this a studio issue or does there have to be some sort of update done with the players themselves. There are a lot of foreign films out now that do not include English subs that I would love to have. I know someone mentioned that's one of the reasons Bandai came aboard.

Any of the BD insiders:

Is this a possibility also with BD? I know only 2 BD players right now (Pioneer & PS3) that have network capability so is this even a priority for the BDA right now?

Amir,

Jason on Vista (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9630153#post9630153)

The linked article mentions how Vista gives the possibilty for 'extender functionality'.

"2. New Extenders via Pika. The original Media Center ecosystem was limited by the fact that the only lingering Media Center Extender device was Microsoft's own Xbox -- a relatively bulky, expensive, feature-laden product for users that want basic Extender functionality.

With Vista, Microsoft is offering a development platform called Pika that enables third parties to build Extender functionality into a wide range of products. We can expect to see products such as TVs, keypads and DVD players doubling as Media Center Extenders.
"

Any chances that current generation or future Toshiba HD DVD players are able to function as a Media Center Extender?

Can someone (insiders included) please post Warner's response to the petitioners email RE: title availability this year?

cheers

Can someone (insiders included) please post Warner's response to the petitioners email RE: title availability this year?

cheersI'm interested in this also...please post it if you got it. Thanks :)

Amir,

Jason on Vista (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9630153#post9630153)

The linked article mentions how Vista gives the possibilty for 'extender functionality'.

"2. New Extenders via Pika. The original Media Center ecosystem was limited by the fact that the only lingering Media Center Extender device was Microsoft's own Xbox -- a relatively bulky, expensive, feature-laden product for users that want basic Extender functionality.

With Vista, Microsoft is offering a development platform called Pika that enables third parties to build Extender functionality into a wide range of products. We can expect to see products such as TVs, keypads and DVD players doubling as Media Center Extenders.
"

Any chances that current generation or future Toshiba HD DVD players are able to function as a Media Center Extender?
Sure. All the hardware is there. It just needs to have some software added to it to understand our DRM format and such.

Amirm ... can you comment on the reported sales lead of 2:1 or ~3:1 BD (over the last couple of weeks)? Is it correct?

Is Neilson/ NPD correct on the 2006 h/w sales?

Finally, what do you predict (in terms of ratios) for the future?

edit: collapsed the NPD/Neilsonsales to one point.

Microsoft insiders,
Can you confirm the Xbox 360's support of mpeg-4?

The reason I ask is because Chicago/Earth Wind Fire HD-DVD fails to play using the 360 add on. there are numerous reports of Wiensteins mpeg-4 releases causing problems as well.

So I imported the UK (US?!) Harry Potter GOF and am wondering since players curently are region unlocked and I have had no promlems, will I eventually be screwed out of my GOF when the players get region locked.

So I imported the UK (US?!) Harry Potter GOF and am wondering since players curently are region unlocked and I have had no promlems, will I eventually be screwed out of my GOF when the players get region locked.
Because no region coding exists in the HD-DVD spec, no region coding can exist in existing players and on existing disks. So no, you will not be screwed out of your GOF, irregardless of what happens with RC in the future.

Just saving an insider the trouble of answering this.

Amir,

My younger brother just sold off his 360 add-on drive (which he bought at launch) and his small library of 22 titles for a PS3. I think he would have stuck with what he had (though he still would have purchased a PS3 for Blu Ray), but the sound issue sealed the deal for him. He picked up Jet Li's Fearless, a title he had been anticipating for some time, and was pretty deflated as soon as he got a listen to what the 360 had done to the soundtrack.

I truly think he would have kept his HD drive just for the Universal titles due out this year (he would have been all over Eternal Sunshine and Children of Men on their release dates), but the lack of a fix for the Dolby decoding issue pushed him over the edge. I'm sticking with my HD-A1, though I will be getting a PS3 to go with it soon. As for my brother, the lack of an audio fix has pushed away a college student with a lot of disposable income who would have purchased many more HD titles.

As a follow up question. I thought it was the studio's which pushed for a region code in the DVD spec. If I remember correctly, it was due to the fact that the DVD hits the streets here in the USA before it releases in theater's in the Asian part of the world thus denying movie sales to the studios.

Do any of the studios view this as a particular weakness in HD-DVD since this feature isn't currently available, and from the comment above, won't be implemented?

And if HD-DVD views this as a non-issue, what changed between DVD and HD-DVD that made the difference.

My younger brother just sold off his 360 add-on drive (which he bought at launch) and his small library of 22 titles for a PS3. I think he would have stuck with what he had (though he still would have purchased a PS3 for Blu Ray), but the sound issue sealed the deal for him. He picked up Jet Li's Fearless, a title he had been anticipating for some time, and was pretty deflated as soon as he got a listen to what the 360 had done to the soundtrack.
If he could have held on just a little longer, he would have gotten the improved DTS audio!

The nice thing about the Xbox player is that it's pure software - there's a huge amoun of scope for us to improve the playback experience within the limits of the physical connectors on the device.

Microsoft insiders,
Can you confirm the Xbox 360's support of mpeg-4?

The reason I ask is because Chicago/Earth Wind Fire HD-DVD fails to play using the 360 add on. there are numerous reports of Wiensteins mpeg-4 releases causing problems as well.
Of course. It is part of the spec and we support it. There are many titles which play just fine with MPEG-4.

There are bug fixes however which we are addressing in an upcoming update.

Because no region coding exists in the HD-DVD spec, no region coding can exist in existing players and on existing disks. So no, you will not be screwed out of your GOF, irregardless of what happens with RC in the future.

Just saving an insider the trouble of answering this.
Thanks

As a follow up question. I thought it was the studio's which pushed for a region code in the DVD spec. If I remember correctly, it was due to the fact that the DVD hits the streets here in the USA before it releases in theater's in the Asian part of the world thus denying movie sales to the studios.

Do any of the studios view this as a particular weakness in HD-DVD since this feature isn't currently available, and from the comment above, won't be implemented?

And if HD-DVD views this as a non-issue, what changed between DVD and HD-DVD that made the difference.
I would say the mindset of studios has definitely changed on this. I don't have an explanation on why. But I don't look a gift horse in the mouth :).

As an interesting tidbit, the only studio pushing for region coding in DVD forum, actually does not publish titles on HD DVD! Makes you think, doesn't it? :)

To any of the HD DVD insiders:

Is there any sort of timeframe on the implementation of subtitles available over the internet connection for HD DVD players? Is this a studio issue or does there have to be some sort of update done with the players themselves. There are a lot of foreign films out now that do not include English subs that I would love to have. I know someone mentioned that's one of the reasons Bandai came aboard.
I don't personally have any data on this.

I will look into this...

Not sure if this has been covered before, as this is a very long thread, but does AVP truly feature seamless branching or did they put 2 versions of the movie on the BD-50 ?

If he could have held on just a little longer, he would have gotten the improved DTS audio!

I am one of the many who are holding on.
Is this being released in the next major fall update?

(wink if you can't say anything publicly) :D

I am one of the many who are holding on.
Is this being released in the next major fall update?

(wink if you can't say anything publicly) :DI would expect much sooner than that, since fall would be more than 6 months from now :)

I don't have any info I can give out on when the new update is coming out, but it definately improves the sound quality as well as a host of other little fixes. Software is like owning a house, there's always something that needs fixing or can be improved :)

dear amirm,

Sony is already claiming that blu-ray has already beaten hd dvd because blu-ray has surpassed hd dvd sales and now has 1 more movie avaible for it what do you have to say about this?

ANY info about the big ps3 update? 5.1 sound instead of 2.1 on ts, maybe?

dear amirm,

Sony is already claiming that blu-ray has already beaten hd dvd because blu-ray has surpassed hd dvd sales and now has 1 more movie avaible for it what do you have to say about this?
BD+HD DVD don't even have a 1% share of the DVD market. The numbers of titles being sold is so small, that if half a dozen of you decided to buy one format or the other, it would skew the numbers that way (OK, I am exaggerating some but you get the idea :)).

You might think I am dismissing these numbers because BD claims they are ahead using them. But I never bragged about them even when they admit that for the entire last year save the last week of it, HD DVD was ahead. It is just silly to hang your hat on small numbers which can have high variability. You also don’t walk looking at your feet. You have to look at where you want to go and in the process, ignoring hills and valleys along the way. As otherwise, BD should have given up last year, given the same logic!

IMHO, both camps need to focus more on winning average customers, than taking pride in taking some tiny share away from the other. I feel that we are doing the most to do this with much lower cost players, and widest array of content from around the globe. And a format that is easy to replicate, enabling us to reach the 14,000 or so DVD titles that are out there in addition to being economical to produce in full capacity and backward compatible versions. And possibly one that shares the same name as DVD :).

So if the BD group is still counting on us closing shop due to these claims, my reply to them is that we have heard this story many times before. It didn’t concern us then. It certainly doesn’t concern us now, on the heels of BD exclusive companies such as LG supporting both formats. We will be around, as they will be. But if they want to underestimate us, as they did at launch last year, no one will be happier than me :). It served us well then, it will serve us well in the future….

Amir

What is the latest news regarding Cjplay?

You might think I am dismissing these numbers because BD claims they are ahead using them. But I never bragged about them even when they admit that for the entire last year save the last week of it, HD DVD was ahead. It is just silly to hang your hat on small numbers which can have high variability. Do you know who it was who decided to use thedvdwars in what looks like a joint press release between Broadcom and Microsoft (in which you were quoted) that is posted here:

http://www.broadcom.com/press/release.php?id=950071

That says:
HD DVD movies have received reviewers' top ratings among high-definition media, and consistently outsell and outrank similar titles of competing optical disc formats.*
...
* Source: http://www.thedvdwars.com/index.cfm, tracking format sales based on Amazon.com data.Were you involved in the decision to use those there?

--Darin

It certainly doesn’t concern us now, on the heels of BD exclusive companies such as LG supporting both formats.

Huh? SAY WHAT?!?!

~Alan

As an interesting tidbit, the only studio pushing for region coding in DVD forum, actually does not publish titles on HD DVD! Makes you think, doesn't it? :)It makes me think that they won't be releasing movies on HD DVD unless the HD DVD camp adds region encoding or basically forces their hand in some other way (like having such a big lead that the studio doesn't really have a choice). Was there something different you had in mind as far as what this implies?

--Darin

Any reaction to the news of a new boss at NBC Universal? I'm assuming this will have no immediate impact on their HD-DVD exclusive stance.This is NBC Universal, not Universal Studios. I don't believe the exec change has any bearing on Universal's format stance.

- Talk

Is theimplementation of subtitles available over the internet connection a possibility with BD? I know only 2 BD players right now (Pioneer & PS3) that have network capability so is this even a priority for the BDA right now?The spec certainly supports it. Doing so over an internet connection would require BD-Live support which hasn't yet been announced for any existing or future players. It could also be supported via a future disc (i.e. a Fox title could load new subtitles for a previous Fox release) without requiring BD-Live support. I don't know whether any studios have short-term plans for implementing this capability; I'd think it would be more useful when there are larger numbers of players in Europe.

This is NBC Universal, not Universal Studios. I don't believe the exec change has any bearing on Universal's format stance.

- Talk

But Universal Home Entertainment is part of NBC Universal, is it not?

Perhaps. I'm sure Amir can clarify the corporate relationship.

The nice thing about the Xbox player is that it's pure software - there's a huge amoun of scope for us to improve the playback experience within the limits of the physical connectors on the device.

Any chance we'll ever see player-implemented title/chapter resume?

Not sure if this has been covered before, as this is a very long thread, but does AVP truly feature seamless branching or did they put 2 versions of the movie on the BD-50 ?
I would like to second this question also. If it is truly seamless branching, why didn't Sony implement it on their release of Basic Instinct 2, & Turistas?

Question for the HD DVD folks, whatever happened to the support of UK distribution companies like Pathe, Momentum, and Entertainment in Video? I was under the impression they would be supporting HD DVD but none of them have announced any titles yet.

ANY info about the big ps3 update? 5.1 sound instead of 2.1 on ts, maybe?

Sorry, what do you mean by ts?

Sorry, what do you mean by ts?


AC3 support for MPEG2 transport stream. Currently, PS3 only do AC3 for MPEG2 PS.

AC3 support for MPEG2 transport stream. Currently, PS3 only do AC3 for MPEG2 PS.

Correct, and we only get 2.1 instead of the 5.1
Also is there any plans support for h264 video?
Right now we have to convert and stress alot.
Any news for the "htpc" people would be apreciated.

Are there any cost effective HD DVD recording media stuff in the works? (discs, write drive, recording player)
Would like start transfer my HDV 1080i material.

Correct, and we only get 2.1 instead of the 5.1
Also is there any plans support for h264 video?
Right now we have to convert and stress alot.
Any news for the "htpc" people would be apreciated.

There is no problem with getting 5.1 AC3 from the optical output and H.264 decoding has been supported from the beginning. Be sure to check your audio preferences in the system menu.

Microsoft insiders,
Can you confirm the Xbox 360's support of mpeg-4?

The reason I ask is because Chicago/Earth Wind Fire HD-DVD fails to play using the 360 add on. there are numerous reports of Wiensteins mpeg-4 releases causing problems as well.
In asking around, it sounds like the issue with that title is in the menus, not the video decode.

If you'e got it handy, try pressing OK or A on the remote and it should take you into the presentation.