paidgeek,

Sorry if this is a repeat. I just noticed that out of the top 10 box office titles listed for 2006 at boxofficemojo.com here:

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/yearly/chart/?yr=2006&p=.htm

"The Da Vinci Code" is the only one that hasn't been released or announced for Blu-ray. Given that the sole holdout is a Sony title, any word on whether this one is in the works?

Thanks,
Darin

paidgeek,

Sorry if this is a repeat. I just noticed that out of the top 10 box office titles listed for 2006 at boxofficemojo.com here:

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/yearly/chart/?yr=2006&p=.htm

"The Da Vinci Code" is the only one that hasn't been released or announced for Blu-ray. Given that the sole holdout is a Sony title, any word on whether this one is in the works?

Thanks,
Darin

It's not in production yet, but we certainly have not forgotten about it....

Hi paidgeek. Does "not in production" mean there could be a transfer/master/prototype ready and waiting and just waiting from the word on high to begin mass production?

Hi paidgeek. Does "not in production" mean there could be a transfer/master/prototype ready and waiting and just waiting from the word on high to begin mass production?
This is a great question which I meant to ask paidgeek previously. He's said that the Spiderman series & Dracula were not "in production" but he's also said to "look for announcements in the coming weeks". He said it takes 4+ weeks to make a title and then you add on time from there for package design and replication.

I'm guessing that if they have masters they are happy with, then it takes 1-2 months once the project gets the greenlight? This obviously excludes all the added value material (most of which is being recyled from the DVD releases in most cases).

But I guess the question still stands. If any studio said, we want "Title X" released on "Day Y" (or even targeted for a certain quarter), what is the process and how long does it take from "greenlight" to store shelf?

Would not "The Da Vinci Code" be a great candidate for a really cool BD-J video 1.1 augmented production? Pop up maps, historical context commentary, etc. Doesn't a movie made from a book with lots of footnotes and maps benefit with in context user interactive requested material? :cool:

Might it come out in June with the full user interactive works?

There is no problem with getting 5.1 AC3 from the optical output and H.264 decoding has been supported from the beginning. Be sure to check your audio preferences in the system menu.

Well, I've recorded several off air HD programs and transferred them to an external 250GB hard drive, MPEG2 and Dolby Digital 5.1

Well, I don't get 5.1 from optical, only Dolby Surround 2.0
HDMI inputs reads "Multichannel" but only the L+R+LFE speakers are active.

The readout for any HD MPEG2 streams reads as "Dolby Digital" and different bitrates, bouncing between 381 and 384Kbps, no multichannel sound...just stereo. That's why I went through the trouble of hooking up the optical port just to get SOME surround sound...but a downmix is still a downmix and matrix doesn't cut it when the source plays back on my PC in true 5.1

Picture looks great, but sound is disappointing to say the least.

Question for Blu-ray folks. I noticed on Blockbusters site they are now referring to Blu-ray Disc movies as "Blu-Ray DVDs", is this an acceptable term?

It doesn't make much sense to me because I was under the impression that DVD and Blu-ray Discs are different formats (and have distinct governing bodies) and calling them Blu-Ray DVDs is incorrect...

Also for HD DVD folks, I would like to know if the protection for HD DVDs is the same as standard DVDs, I have received at least two rentals with minor scratches that would not play on the 360 add-on. I have other DVDs with much worse abuse that seem to play fine.

Conversly, I haven't had any issues with Blu-ray rentals with scratches on them, I take it the extra coating they are using are making these discs more reliable. Is there any chance we'll see a similar hard coating on HD DVDs?

Toshiba HD-XE1 and HD-XA2 are they exactly internally similar to each other beside the model name?

This is a great question which I meant to ask paidgeek previously. He's said that the Spiderman series & Dracula were not "in production" but he's also said to "look for announcements in the coming weeks". He said it takes 4+ weeks to make a title and then you add on time from there for package design and replication.

I'm guessing that if they have masters they are happy with, then it takes 1-2 months once the project gets the greenlight? This obviously excludes all the added value material (most of which is being recyled from the DVD releases in most cases).

But I guess the question still stands. If any studio said, we want "Title X" released on "Day Y" (or even targeted for a certain quarter), what is the process and how long does it take from "greenlight" to store shelf?

To further define what I mean by "not in production", it means I have not seen the authoring center working on it yet. There is a 6 to 8 week period from the time it has to be completed by the authoring center to the time it hits the streets. Usually if a title is "in production" the street date has been announced and I can talk about it. I apologize again for the fact that I cannot give details about titles being planned, but it is important that I not disclose information I should not necessarily have in the first place.

Well, I've recorded several off air HD programs and transferred them to an external 250GB hard drive, MPEG2 and Dolby Digital 5.1

Well, I don't get 5.1 from optical, only Dolby Surround 2.0
HDMI inputs reads "Multichannel" but only the L+R+LFE speakers are active.

The readout for any HD MPEG2 streams reads as "Dolby Digital" and different bitrates, bouncing between 381 and 384Kbps, no multichannel sound...just stereo. That's why I went through the trouble of hooking up the optical port just to get SOME surround sound...but a downmix is still a downmix and matrix doesn't cut it when the source plays back on my PC in true 5.1

Picture looks great, but sound is disappointing to say the least.

Sorry, it was not clear to me earlier that these questions are basically not Blu-ray related. I have passed the information on to the appropriate group in Sony and will forward any response.

HD DVD is a great value (I purchased an A2 and over 20 HD DVDs for less than the price of a stand alone Blu-ray player) and the picture quality is fantastic; however, I have a few questions for any HD DVD insiders:

1) Is HD DVD even aware how embarrassing and pathetic their upcoming release schedule looks in comparison to their direct competition (Blu-ray)?

2) Are you aware that by not releasing or announcing new software that your fan base is extremely angry, disappointed, and even starting to purchase products from your direct competition?

3) I know that Universal had a chat with the Home Theater Forum and tried to alleviate some concerns, but what can people do to get studios to support HD DVD in the form of frequent, quality releases?

I just do not understand the business practices HD DVD is using. Customers are trying to give you money, but you do not seem interested in taking it.

To PaidGeek

I'm not sure if this is the appropriate forum to ask this but, do you know if the PS3 is dnla compliant?

It was talked up at ces05(I think) even demo-ed, but I've heard nothing since.

Thanks

Kabelo

Paidgeek or talkstr8t, any answers about the seamless branching question a few pages ago?

Back to something that was mentioned in this thread before:
Nope. We're the only of the three codecs that can reproduce the grain texture well. MPEG-2 gets block/overly sharp, and AVC just takes it out.I was thinking that you meant they couldn't do it at all, but now I realize that you probably meant that they couldn't do it at lower bitrates. If you are claiming that MPEG-2 and AVC can't do grain texture well at any bitrates, then please say so. Otherwise, what kinds of bitrates do you think are required for MPEG-2 to do grain texture well?

What is the most recent AVC encoder you have experience with? If you can't say which one, at least please tell us how recent that encoder is as things can change pretty fast with both AVC and VC-1. And also whether it is one of the professional encoders like would be used for these formats.

Do you have a Blu-ray player? Have you checked out how much fine detail there is and how grain is shown with some of the AVC encodes on Blu-ray?

--Darin

To PaidGeek

I'm not sure if this is the appropriate forum to ask this but, do you know if the PS3 is dnla compliant?

It was talked up at ces05(I think) even demo-ed, but I've heard nothing since.

Thanks

KabeloI'm very interested in this question too. I assume the poster is referring to DLNA not dnla.

I'd like to open it up to all insiders and re-phrase it a bit. Could any Blu-ray or HD DVD player with a network connection be upgraded to support DLNA? In other words is it just a matter of updating the firmware or would additional hardware be required? I realize the DLNA firmware may not be a trivial matter but short of running out of storage are there hardware limitations preventing this?

Question to all insiders:

As a home user, how in the hell am I supposed to know whether what I am seeing is film grain being faithfully reproduced or something else? If I don't have the actual film or unfiltered digital master is there any way to distinguish whether what is being displayed is film grain or just "noise" ?

TIA

Could any Blu-ray or HD DVD player with a network connection be upgraded to support DLNA? In other words is it just a matter of updating the firmware or would additional hardware be required? If it has a network connection already, then it would be just a firmware upgrade.

Paidgeek or talkstr8t, any answers about the seamless branching question a few pages ago?Sorry, I'll have to leave this to Paid; I have little experience with seamless branching.

I'd like to open it up to all insiders and re-phrase it a bit. Could any Blu-ray or HD DVD player with a network connection be upgraded to support DLNA? Is it just a matter of updating the firmware or would additional hardware be required? IAs you may know, the Pioneer BDP-HD1 is already DLNA compliant. Any other Blu-ray player with a network connection should be upgradable, should the manufacturer choose to do so. I believe it's also theoretically possible that someone could author a DLNA implementation as a BD-J application and allow any BD-Live Blu-ray player to support networked media regardless of whether the player vendor supports it, but this is surmised without having culled through the DLNA specs to see if it would in fact be feasible.

- Talk

Question to all insiders:

As a home user, how in the hell am I supposed to know whether what I am seeing is film grain being faithfully reproduced or something else? If I don't have the actual film or unfiltered digital master is there any way to distinguish whether what is being displayed is film grain or just "noise" ?

TIA
I want an answer to this as well, but I don't think we'll be getting one.

To further define what I mean by "not in production", it means I have not seen the authoring center working on it yet. There is a 6 to 8 week period from the time it has to be completed by the authoring center to the time it hits the streets. Usually if a title is "in production" the street date has been announced and I can talk about it. I apologize again for the fact that I cannot give details about titles being planned, but it is important that I not disclose information I should not necessarily have in the first place.
Thanks. That clears it all up. I hope you didn't take my question to mean that I was calling you out in any way. I understand you cannot discuss specific titles. I just wanted to learn more about the process, to get a sense of how much planning, work, & leadtime goes into this stuff.

It really is amazing to me. Any idea on when we can expect Sony Pictures' next round of "formal" announcements?

Question to all insiders:

As a home user, how in the hell am I supposed to know whether what I am seeing is film grain being faithfully reproduced or something else? If I don't have the actual film or unfiltered digital master is there any way to distinguish whether what is being displayed is film grain or just "noise" ?

TIA
In one case it is easy, in others, it can be difficult. The easy case is if you see MPEG-2 macroblocking. In full motion, the grain appears to have irregular movement. When paused, you see the block edges around grain (whose movement at full speed looks like the dancing grain mentioned just before). Again, there was a thread on Pearl Harbor recently in BD. If you pause that movie, you easily see blocking artifacts in the background grain (despite the high rates it using for the MPEG-2 encode). The distorted grain is visible in most scenes. Advanced codecs such as AVC and VC-1 tend to not suffer from such artifacts because they have smaller block sizes (i.e. the area is smaller) and better distortion control so you will have a hard time spotting this issue with them.

Beyond blocking artifacts, you will have a hard time knowing if the grain is faithful to the original. For those of us who see it day in and day out in the originals, we can most of the time tell if the grain looks "wrong" (soft, smeared, etc.). But that is a subjective judgment which we can also miss (in both directions).

I want an answer to this as well, but I don't think we'll be getting one.
Oh, didn't see this before answing :D. How did I do?

Amir

What is the latest news regarding Cjplay?
I am afraid, news is not good. cjplay is gone forever as an alias posting here. Cjplay the person is doing great work encoding VC-1 movies. But he won't be able to post under that alias, representing Warner.

For really critical stuff, like the last request to Warner, I try to act as their proxy. But that would be about it.

Not sure if this has been covered before, as this is a very long thread, but does AVP truly feature seamless branching or did they put 2 versions of the movie on the BD-50 ?

We are not authoring this title, but I will try to get an answer for you. There is nothing to prevent using seamless branching in Blu-ray. It is supported in our authoring tool and we are considering a title that might be a good candidate for it.

We are not authoring this title, but I will try to get an answer for you. There is nothing to prevent using seamless branching in Blu-ray. It is supported in our authoring tool and we are considering a title that might be a good candidate for it.
Does it rhyme with Riderman Blue? :D

I am afraid, news is not good. cjplay is gone forever as an alias posting here. Cjplay the person is doing great work encoding VC-1 movies. But he won't be able to post under that alias, representing Warner.
:(

------

About DLNA: I've read that the Pioneer's DLNA implementation doesn't properly handle HD content. Does the DLNA specification handle HD content in the first place? Isn't it kind of paradoxical that a HD player is limited to SD when doing DLNA?

I am afraid, news is not good. cjplay is gone forever as an alias posting here. Cjplay the person is doing great work encoding VC-1 movies. But he won't be able to post under that alias, representing Warner.

For really critical stuff, like the last request to Warner, I try to act as their proxy. But that would be about it.

Amir can you at least let us know that Cjplay has not gotten in to any trouble over all this? Also do you think it is possible that Warner can substitute another representive on here? Reps from others studios would also be welcome.

Oh, didn't see this before answing :D. How did I do?
Good explanation sir. Thank you! :)

In one case it is easy, in others, it can be difficult. The easy case is if you see MPEG-2 macroblocking. In full motion, the grain appears to have irregular movement. When paused, you see the block edges around grain (whose movement at full speed looks like the dancing grain mentioned just before). Again, there was a thread on Pearl Harbor recently in BD. If you pause that movie, you easily see blocking artifacts in the background grain (despite the high rates it using for the MPEG-2 encode). The distorted grain is visible in most scenes. Advanced codecs such as AVC and VC-1 tend to not suffer from such artifacts because they have smaller block sizes (i.e. the area is smaller) and better distortion control so you will have a hard time spotting this issue with them.

Beyond blocking artifacts, you will have a hard time knowing if the grain is faithful to the original. For those of us who see it day in and day out in the originals, we can most of the time tell if the grain looks "wrong" (soft, smeared, etc.). But that is a subjective judgment which we can also miss (in both directions).


Amir I see you trying to explain mpeg-2 macro blocking that you see, to me since I work with film, I do not see macroblocking I see Grain. In Pearl harbour the filmstock that was used has more grain then other film stocks. Also have you seen the Master of Pearl Harbour, so how can you judge the encode when you havn't even seen the master.

Working on Many Films Directly with the film scan cineons I have seen exactly what I see in pearl harbour and it is grain that I see, not Macroblocking.

Diffrent Film stocks have Diffrent Grain Some finer then others.

Amir I see you trying to explain mpeg-2 macro blocking that you see, to me since I work with film, I do not see macroblocking I see Grain. In Pearl harbour the filmstock that was used has more grain then other film stocks. Also have you seen the Master of Pearl Harbour, so how can you judge the encode when you havn't even seen the master.
Again, in case of macroblocking that is evident in the grain, one does not need to see the original to see the problem. No grain ever looks like a square block. Just pause the movie on a 1080p LCD, set to 1:1 pixel mapping and you see it easily. I see it even on my Samsung which does not have 1:1 mapping and overscans (i.e. softens the video some). You see a bunch of grain and then parts of it have nice block outlines on them. Per my note, if you let the movie run, the blocks jump around causing that dancing effect I mentioned. And in that mode, they could be confused with normal grain but for us compression heads :), we see it readily as a compression artifact. But maybe without an eye for them this way, they look like normal grain.

Again, there are pictures in this thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=781777. While my experience was not as bad as this on the Samsung since it softens the image some (and you are not going to see examine the picture with a magnifier like this), there are clear artifacts in the grain. Here is the first picture posted in there that shows it: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=71903. You can clearly see the outline of the blocks in vertical and horizontal lines around background grain. No grain has straight edges like this.



Working on Many Films Directly with the film scan cineons I have seen exactly what I see in pearl harbour and it is grain that I see, not Macroblocking.
Please conduct the above test on an LCD and if you still don't see it, I will see if I can get some pictures of my own to show the same issues.

Diffrent Film stocks have Diffrent Grain Some finer then others.
That's true and hence the reason I said if you can't see blocking artifacts, you will have a hard time judging what is the original grain, and what is processed. But compression artifacts are never a characteristic of grain so when they are there, you know the grain was not treated well.

Please note that I am not saying that the way to judge the quality of a movie is to pause and examine every frame to see if it is perfect (they won’t be in either format and regardless of codec chosen – we just don’t spend that kind of time and energy to perfect them all). I am answering the question of how you can tell the grain is normal or not. For that, the pause button does provide a tool in limited circumstances such as PH.

Hmm... Did not notice that on my TV

1080p SXRD 60", I will have to take a look at those scenes, but also to even though those are prensent are they present in the master.

Will have to check again, sorry if you took anything I said the wrong way, but the scenes I was refering to which I looked at in another thread was the one with the airplanes approching Pearl harbour.

I will have to check this out with my hardware. to see it

will there be a matching black hd dvd addon?

http://www.engadget.com/2007/02/08/black-xbox-360-with-120gb-hdd-and-hdmi-due-for-april/

Again, there are pictures in this thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=781777. While my experience was not as bad as this on the Samsung since it softens the image some (and you are not going to see examine the picture with a magnifier like this), there are clear artifacts in the grain.

There are no pics in this thread that are direct digital from the disc and show such blocking as the examples at the beginning. Snap shots of screens are pointless. Pics 1:1 from the disc on this thread show no obvious blocking unless you apply a sharpening filter. So, Amir, do you have any 1:1 pics from the Pearl Harbor disc that show blocking comparable to the opening examples?

I read a recent analyst statement that predicted more duel format players out by the end of this year. Has any insider heard anything about this? Does anyone foresee multiple duel format players on the horizon?

Question for the HD DVD folks, whatever happened to the support of UK distribution companies like Pathe, Momentum, and Entertainment in Video? I was under the impression they would be supporting HD DVD but none of them have announced any titles yet.

Sorry for the late reply. It takes me a bit of time to get answers for overseas questions :).

So here is the situation.

Pathé titles are distributed in France only. But for some titles such as Stalingrad and Alexander, they seem to have rights for UK market also. These titles will be on the market on March 7th. They would be sold on the Internet and could be acquired from UK for every country around the world.

Entertainment (BBC) has announced the release of Planet Earth for US market in April and later in Europe (probably around June time frame).

Regarding Momentum, they will distribute most of Studio Canal titles in UK market (the rest will be done by Optimum – acquired recently by Studio Canal itself).

Sorry for the late reply. It takes me a bit of time to get answers for overseas questions :).

So here is the situation.

Pathé titles are distributed in France only. But for some titles such as Stalingrad and Alexander, they seem to have rights for UK market also. These titles will be on the market on March 7th. They would be sold on the Internet and could be acquired from UK for every country around the world.

Entertainment (BBC) has announced the release of Planet Earth for US market in April and later in Europe (probably around June time frame).

Regarding Momentum, they will distribute most of Studio Canal titles in UK market (the rest will be done by Optimum – acquired recently by Studio Canal itself).

Clarification:

"Stalingrad" in Europe is "Enemy at the Gates" in the US.

"Stalingrad" There was a German film of that name a few years back. Is that different than "Enemy at the Gates".

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0108211/

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0215750/

Paidgeek, two questions.

1. Are Sony going to announce any high profile releases in the next 2 weeks? Blu-ray annoucements seems to have died down a bit.

2. Are Sony still going to use MPEG 2 or is AVC the plan for other future titles like Bond and Open Season?

Paidgeek, two questions.

1. Are Sony going to announce any high profile releases in the next 2 weeks? Blu-ray annoucements seems to have died down a bit.

2. Are Sony still going to use MPEG 2 or is AVC the plan for other future titles like Bond and Open Season?

I don't know the exact date the announcements will come, but in the next few weeks you should expect to hear about some strong titles. I have seen what is in planning for the year and I'm sure you will be pleased.

We are favoring AVC encoding for a large percentage of titles. It could just be coincidence, but lately we have had several masters in production that have benefited from using AVC based on tests. Rocky Balboa was a particularly difficult title and you will understand why when you view it. No tutorial on film grain will be required for that one...

To anybody from Microsoft...

Do I understand the upcoming DTS fix for the Xbox360 HD-DVD player correctly?
Rather than converting a Dolby Digital Plus or TrueHD signal to a 640K Dolby Digital stream, all sound will be converted to a DTS 1.5MB stream and sent to my receiver.
Rather than Dolby Digital appearing on my receiver, DTS will appear instead.

To anybody from Microsoft...

Do I understand the upcoming DTS fix for the Xbox360 HD-DVD player correctly?
Rather than converting a Dolby Digital Plus or TrueHD signal to a 640K Dolby Digital stream, all sound will be converted to a DTS 1.5MB stream and sent to my receiver.
Rather than Dolby Digital appearing on my receiver, DTS will appear instead.
That is true although you will still have the option of using DD on the way out, rather than DTS. And even with DD, you will be able to hear much improved quality compared to currently shipping player (more on this later :)).

Sorry for the late reply. It takes me a bit of time to get answers for overseas questions :).

So here is the situation.

Pathé titles are distributed in France only. But for some titles such as Stalingrad and Alexander, they seem to have rights for UK market also. These titles will be on the market on March 7th. They would be sold on the Internet and could be acquired from UK for every country around the world.

Entertainment (BBC) has announced the release of Planet Earth for US market in April and later in Europe (probably around June time frame).

Regarding Momentum, they will distribute most of Studio Canal titles in UK market (the rest will be done by Optimum – acquired recently by Studio Canal itself).
Thanks for the response Amir. Do you know when Momentum will start selling their titles? I only ask because Optimum has already released a few.

amir,

will the upcoming update include a new black 360 and matching addon? :D

amir,

will the upcoming update include a new black 360 and matching addon? :D
Yes, we managed to get the Star Trek transporter technology to work through Xbox live. And upon download, your machine and add-on will turn into black! :D

Amir, was the poll you ran here on AVS the reason Universal changed The Nutty Professor and The Jerk to regular HD DVD (they were announced as HD DVD/DVD combo titles)?

Hopefully Universal has a plan to make everyone happy, because as it is, I'm holding off on buying anything that ISN'T a combo. I'm very disappointed 40-Year Old Virgin was just announced as a regular disc as well. My DVD collection is very small, but now that I'm buying movies, I'd rather own a hybrid version and not have to pay more for a DVD plus have to deal with shelf space issues.

Is there any reasonable solution to this now that some early adopters are happy about fewer combos from Universal, while other like me who are willing to pay extra for them and prefer them are now going to hold off on purchases?

Are Euro HD-DVD tranferes of the same quality as there US counterparts due to the fact some titles have many more lauguages on the disc etc (or any other reason).

Some discs i have seen dont seem to compare too well to my north american copies of the same film.

or are my eyezies playing tricks on me. you know what its like when you stare at these things for too long :eek:

That is true although you will still have the option of using DD on the way out, rather than DTS. And even with DD, you will be able to hear much improved quality compared to currently shipping player (more on this later :)).

That is good news. Should keep people with DD only receivers happy.

However.. does the new DTS output outperform the upgraded DD output?

Amir, was the poll you ran here on AVS the reason Universal changed The Nutty Professor and The Jerk to regular HD DVD (they were announced as HD DVD/DVD combo titles)?

Hopefully Universal has a plan to make everyone happy, because as it is, I'm holding off on buying anything that ISN'T a combo. I'm very disappointed 40-Year Old Virgin was just announced as a regular disc as well. My DVD collection is very small, but now that I'm buying movies, I'd rather own a hybrid version and not have to pay more for a DVD plus have to deal with shelf space issues.

Is there any reasonable solution to this now that some early adopters are happy about fewer combos from Universal, while other like me who are willing to pay extra for them and prefer them are now going to hold off on purchases?
I am providing feedback based on the opinions of the forum to the studios. I don't personally know if that has affected their plans regarding those titles (but it could have). I hope to provide more concrete feedback to this forum soon.

As to your concern, you are right that it will be hard to please everyone. I know opinions are varied on this so some percentage of people may not like the policy no matter what. Ultimately, once the market gets large, then it might merit different versions being published.

I don't know the exact date the announcements will come, but in the next few weeks you should expect to hear about some strong titles. I have seen what is in planning for the year and I'm sure you will be pleased.

We are favoring AVC encoding for a large percentage of titles. It could just be coincidence, but lately we have had several masters in production that have benefited from using AVC based on tests. Rocky Balboa was a particularly difficult title and you will understand why when you view it. No tutorial on film grain will be required for that one...

Is the AVC encoder inherently better with grainy masters or is it because the MPEG2 encoder exceeds the 40mbps bandwidth limit for video peaks ??

b2b

Is the AVC encoder inherently better with grainy masters or is it because the MPEG2 encoder exceeds the 40mbps bandwidth limit for video peaks ??

b2b

Yes, generally speaking, the Sony AVC encoder can retain the character of the titles with heavier grain better than the Sony MPEG2 encoder or the VC1 encoder, but each master really has to be evaluated case by case. The MPEG encoder can be constrained to whatever max bitrate is permitted by the project.

Yes, generally speaking, the Sony AVC encoder can retain the character of the titles with heavier grain better than the Sony MPEG2 encoder or the VC1 encoder, but each master really has to be evaluated case by case. The MPEG encoder can be constrained to whatever max bitrate is permitted by the project.

Does this imply you have the latest (or a recent) version of MS's VC-1 encoder? Or any version at all, for that matter?

It has been mentioned here that Sony did not take MS up on their offer of the software and encoding assistance...

Does this imply you have the latest (or a recent) version of MS's VC-1 encoder? Or any version at all, for that matter?

It has been mentioned here that Sony did not take MS up on their offer of the software and encoding assistance...
We provided Sony with our latest encoder and tools late last year (post the interviews where they claimed they already had experience with VC-1). In addition, we have provided them with training on our tools and answered their questions.

Alas, unless Sony starts to actually use the tools and get experienced with them, they are not going to get good results from VC-1. One does not become an expert at a sport, by just reading the rules in a book!

I have another question for Amir regarding Universal's combo change-up.

As I have a hard time believing that the AVS poll would change Universal's policy (as I recall, somewhere North of 80% said they would buy combos under the various circumstances given) perhaps Universal thought they had other titles which would make more effective use of the combo manufacturing lines (stronger titles from a sales perspective) and bumped Nutty Professor and The Jerk for that reason?

We provided Sony with our latest encoder and tools late last year (post the interviews where they claimed they already had experience with VC-1). In addition, we have provided them with training on our tools and answered their questions.

Alas, unless Sony starts to actually use the tools and get experienced with them, they are not going to get good results from VC-1. One does not become an expert at a sport, by just reading the rules in a book!

Are you sure Sony hasn't used the tools and become familiar with them, but still feel they get better results using AVC?

Amir, about 6 months to two years ago in various interviews including one in Widescreen Review you said that MPEG-4 AVC was incapable of encoding fine detail. Do you still believe that and if so have you ever seen the Blu-ray version of Open Season?

We provided Sony with our latest encoder and tools late last year (post the interviews where they claimed they already had experience with VC-1). In addition, we have provided them with training on our tools and answered their questions.

Alas, unless Sony starts to actually use the tools and get experienced with them, they are not going to get good results from VC-1. One does not become an expert at a sport, by just reading the rules in a book!

I won't speak about our first hand experience because we are not allowed to do so. My comments are based on viewing the latest HD-DVD titles and discussion with other studios and authoring facilities. Even the most consistent supporters of VC1 are getting impatient with the time it takes to get good results. If VC1 is going to have a future in HD packaged media it should require less user intervention. There is ever increasing pressure to release new titles shortly after theatrical debut and it does matter when the time to complete compression and authoring is hindered by the choice of codec.

Paidgeek,

How much time on a title such as "Open Season" does one save with AVC vs. using VC-1 as per a rough estimate so we have idea of that means in terms of actual hours/days/weeks.

Thanks,
Robert.

Paidgeek,

How much time on a title such as "Open Season" does one save with AVC vs. using VC-1 as per a rough estimate so we have idea of that means in terms of actual hours/days/weeks.

Thanks,
Robert.

I can't give an accurate estimate on "Open Season" because we got a very good result with AVC and did not test it with VC1. My prior comments are based on discussion with two studios and two major authoring facilities. In all honesty, I am happy to have 3 workable codecs to use provided that it makes sense. It just gets tiresome to have to continually defend our decision to use something other than VC1. At point some point, every content company is compelled to make decisions based on performance and economics....The same can be said about supporting disc formats....

You are a small label with quite limited financial means but you have some HD material you want to release on HD-DVD or BR. NOT counting the costs for compression and making all the data ready for stamp master production and replication, what is the ballpark for the amount of money you have to spend per disc to make today 1000 discs, 10000 discs for HD-DVD? How much for BR? How much 6 months from now? In a year?

Amirm, do you know when we´ll see the first HD DVD players from the Chinese companies, announced at the CES2007.

Q2, Q3 or later.???

Paidgeek,

I realize that CES was only four weeks ago, but I was wondering when more information would be forthcoming regarding Sony's "Sapphire" Blu-ray players?


Thank you.

I won't speak about our first hand experience because we are not allowed to do so. My comments are based on viewing the latest HD-DVD titles and discussion with other studios and authoring facilities. Even the most consistent supporters of VC1 are getting impatient with the time it takes to get good results. If VC1 is going to have a future in HD packaged media it should require less user intervention. There is ever increasing pressure to release new titles shortly after theatrical debut and it does matter when the time to complete compression and authoring is hindered by the choice of codec.

As consumers we just want the best looking product we can get. Are you saying here that getting it done and getting it out the door is more important?

http://www.dvdtimes.co.uk/content.php?contentid=63849

are reporting Casino Royale will be coded A, B, C. How does this fit with the policy of coding in the first year and then removal or is this an error?

As consumers we just want the best looking product we can get. Are you saying here that getting it done and getting it out the door is more important?

No, I am saying that our goal is to provide consumers with an image that is indistinguishable from the master tape when viewed at 2 or 3 picture heights. If one codec can get to that result in a week and another takes two or three, we will make decisions accordingly.

http://www.dvdtimes.co.uk/content.php?contentid=63849

are reporting Casino Royale will be coded A, B, C. How does this fit with the policy of coding in the first year and then removal or is this an error?

Casino Royale has already been released in theaters worldwide. Since the theatrical window for the title is passed, we are coding the disc all region.

Paidgeek,

I realize that CES was only four weeks ago, but I was wondering when more information would be forthcoming regarding Sony's "Sapphire" Blu-ray players?


Thank you.

I don't have any new information on the release of the new models. As far as I know, the model for the U.S. is still coming in the Spring.

Thanks PG

I have a question concerning authoring/encoding. It seems agreed on that VC-1 requires "more time". I've also seen two weeks given as some kind of ballpark figure as to how long it takes to encode a movie using VC-1.

Would it be one person sitting in an expensive studio (several hundred dollars an hour) for twelve hours a day for two weeks or would he be doing actual work for x amount of days and the rest would be a computer processing the project by itself?

Are these two weeks (if correct) long enough to make an actual difference with regards to releasedates compared to other codecs using x amount of days less? With DVD releases normally several months after theatrical releases it would seem strange that the encoding couldn't be done in parallel with some other work on a project.

Is the extra time it takes for VC1 (and more so AVC) because of the encoders just requiring more horsepower or because the tools are not available so it takes more man hours of human intervention?

And if it's the first why can't more processing power just be added as extra PC's? Is it not amenable to render farm techniques?

- Tom

So is Paramount holding back mpeg-2 BD releases because of the cost and time required to get the same movies done on VC-1 on HD DVD? Or are they no longer using VC-1? Why would WHV want to persist with VC-1 if it doesn't make business sense? just curious.

In all honesty, I am happy to have 3 workable codecs to use provided that it makes sense. It just gets tiresome to have to continually defend our decision to use something other than VC1. At point some point, every content company is compelled to make decisions based on performance and economics....The same can be said about supporting disc formats....
pg,

This is one of the best, most honest, and sensible posts I've read in a while. As you mentioned above, it makes sense to have access to all three codecs and determine the tool which best fits each film on a case-by-case basis.

I don't think Sony needs to feel as though they have to "defend" using anything other than VC-1, as long as "best it can be" is the ultimate goal, and result, for each individual release.

Amir,

Congratulations on getting the latest tools and VC-1 encoders in the hands of Sony. Sounds like that may be a "win" for you given your previous posts last year. Given paidgeek's comments above, it sounds as though they are trying to use the best tool for each job, and in the future that may include VC-1 on certain titles. Everyone is better off as a result.

Would it be one person sitting in an expensive studio (several hundred dollars an hour) for twelve hours a day for two weeks or would he be doing actual work for x amount of days and the rest would be a computer processing the project by itself?

Are these two weeks (if correct) long enough to make an actual difference with regards to releasedates compared to other codecs using x amount of days less? With DVD releases normally several months after theatrical releases it would seem strange that the encoding couldn't be done in parallel with some other work on a project.

We typically have two weeks to complete the entire compression and authoring process, including QC time. Ideally we want to have the video compression finished before the rest of the project is started so that extra time can be taken to test different codecs or bit rates without holding anyone else up.




Is the extra time it takes for VC1 (and more so AVC) because of the encoders just requiring more horsepower or because the tools are not available so it takes more man hours of human intervention?



And if it's the first why can't more processing power just be added as extra PC's? Is it not amenable to render farm techniques?

- Tom

The answer is yes and yes, the latter being especially true when the bit rate needs to be constrained tightly.

We do use multiple PC's for both VC1 and AVC encoding, but there are practical limits as to how many PC's we can use on one project.

There is a repeating cycle of compress, view, customize, and so on that becomes increasingly difficult depending on the master, the codec and the limits we have to work with for average bit rate and max bit rate.

Paidgeek,

In several other threads it is mentioned that Sony typically has a show in February to announce new products and one is expected this year.

Do you have any info on when or where?
(I'm praying for an announcement of a SXRD that is >70"--hopefully 80"!)

Paidgeek,

In several other threads it is mentioned that Sony typically has a show in February to announce new products and one is expected this year.

Do you have any info on when or where?
(I'm praying for an announcement of a SXRD that is >70"--hopefully 80"!)

There is a Sony event for dealers in Las Vegas at the end of this month. I don't know if any press announcements will come out of this, but if I see anything new I can talk about, I'll post something on it.

Paidgeek,

Can you name any BD titles from European distributors, completed by local authoring facilities and which are samples of good technical skills in terms of encoding and authoring?
In general, what's your opinion about adopting BD format by non US post-production/authoring companies.

Marcin

Paidgeek,

Can you name any BD titles from European distributors, completed by local authoring facilities and which are samples of good technical skills in terms of encoding and authoring?
In general, what's your opinion about adopting BD format by non US post-production/authoring companies.

Marcin

I can't give an example that meets your criteria today because I can't think of any titles I have screened from a European authoring company lately. I will have an opportunity to do this over the next couple of weeks and let you know what I find. We have sold authoring tools to a few European companies including Sony DADA in Salzburg. I know that DADA can create titles of the same quality as those produced in the US because they have the same equipment and a skilled staff.

I can't give an example that meets your criteria today because I can't think of any titles I have screened from a European authoring company lately. I will have an opportunity to do this over the next couple of weeks and let you know what I find. We have sold authoring tools to a few European companies including Sony DADA in Salzburg. I know that DADA can create titles of the same quality as those produced in the US because they have the same equipment and a skilled staff.

Thanks Paidgeek. Do you see any "time horizon" when BD authoring tools will become widely available (in terms of costs) for independent authoring companies (a bit different size then Sony DADA :) ).

I can't give an example that meets your criteria today because I can't think of any titles I have screened from a European authoring company lately. I will have an opportunity to do this over the next couple of weeks and let you know what I find. We have sold authoring tools to a few European companies including Sony DADA in Salzburg. I know that DADA can create titles of the same quality as those produced in the US because they have the same equipment and a skilled staff.

Paidgeek,

You should try to check out "OSS 117", which is the first Blu-ray ever produced in France. It's a Gaumont title -- which is distributed in France by Sony -- so it shouldn't be difficult for you to get a copy. ;)

It has been authored by Mastery (one of the leading DVD labs here) and it has probably been replicated by DADC Austria. It's a BD-25 encoded in AVC with PCM and DTS HD Fren ch tracks (and English subs).

Word is the picture quality and the interactivity are fantastic. I haven't seen it yet because I'm unsure if it has no region code, or if it's B only.

Casino Royale has already been released in theaters worldwide. Since the theatrical window for the title is passed, we are coding the disc all region.

Great!!! Very very great!!! :D

Question. Will we see some special edition BDs use nice cardboard packaging, an example being The Lord Of Rings Extended edition DVDs.

Those digi-pack style DVDs look and feel very nice. Something like Lawrence Of Arabia deserves a nicer package than just the standard Blu-ray case.

Any chance? Pretty please.

Dennis.

Dear amirm,

does the upcoming update for the hd dvd add-on handle true hd 7.1 sound tracks because ive heard the lord of the rings trilogy coming out for hd dvd will be the first to use 7.1, it would be great if it re-encoded the 7.1 tracks as dts-es tracks :) .

Hi paidgeek, do you have any contact with the folks at SEI or SCEI? If so, do you know and/or could you perhaps ask if the alternate color PS3's are still going to be released (Silver and white were shown at E3, but nothing IIRC since then), and if so when. I generally buy all silver components so the PS3 kinda sticks out right now, though I suppose it does match the black/silver aesthetic of my SXRD... Thanks! I'd second the request for a larger SXRD. 75" is about as big as I'm willing to go before I just consider a Pearl or the rumored Emerald, though.

Maybe you could perhaps ask any of them to appear themselves to reduce the load on non-SPHE questions for yourself? :)

Is the extra time it takes for VC1 (and more so AVC) because of the encoders just requiring more horsepower or because the tools are not available so it takes more man hours of human intervention?
I don't think it takes any more time than AVC. It's just that high-end compression is labor intensive. Even a MPEG-2 DVD of an A-list title will get quite a bit of TLC and QA.

For lots of "long tail" content, a straight up 2-pass encode with no tweaking will probably be used with VC-1, like most low-volume DVDs don't get tweaking like that either.

And if it's the first why can't more processing power just be added as extra PC's? Is it not amenable to render farm techniques?

VC-1 works on render farms today. We're actually below 3x real-time (meaing a third of real time) in some configurations now.

Longer term, it'll migrate down to a single desktop for many applications, using a mix of hardware acceleration and fast multicore machines.

Ben,

The sad thing is, we can never get a real figure when asked. I have Amir telling me that Babel was AVC due to the post house not wanting to spend the extra time to get it right with VC-1 (due to grain or whatever else issues). Then you have paidgeek basically stating that it's a time vs. money deal when going with AVC instead of VC-1. I'm a BIG fan of VC-1. Infact, I consider VC-1 titles a blind buy yet wait for reviews for a Mpeg2 or AVC titles.

What I'd simply like to know is how much longer does it takes to do a proper VC-1 encode on a title such as Babel? and are steps being taken to make VC-1 more time effecient?

Thanks,
Robert.

Paidgeek,

thanks to Sony for the buy one get one free deal at Fry's this weekend. If you would please pass on the good word to Lionsgate and Fox to join in for next weekend, it'd be most appreciated :)

I don't think it takes any more time than AVC. It's just that high-end compression is labor intensive. Even a MPEG-2 DVD of an A-list title will get quite a bit of TLC and QA.

For lots of "long tail" content, a straight up 2-pass encode with no tweaking will probably be used with VC-1, like most low-volume DVDs don't get tweaking like that either.


VC-1 works on render farms today. We're actually below 3x real-time (meaing a third of real time) in some configurations now.

Longer term, it'll migrate down to a single desktop for many applications, using a mix of hardware acceleration and fast multicore machines.

If by "a third of real time" you mean it takes 40 minutes to encode one pass of a 2 hour movie then I don't see how that could still be considered a competitive disadvantage against MPEG-2. Why's it still an issue? Is that multi-PC configuration quite expensive, hard to get, or something?

Is Microsoft willing to loan PaidGeek a configuration like this so they could try it out? ;)

- Tom

Is the extra time it takes for VC1 (and more so AVC) because of the encoders just requiring more horsepower or because the tools are not available so it takes more man hours of human intervention?

And if it's the first why can't more processing power just be added as extra PC's? Is it not amenable to render farm techniques?

- Tom
At some point you run into a bottleneck. For instance, to encode a 2 hour movie, you often have about 2 terabytes of data to encode. If your server farm is connected by gigabit ethernet, it will still take over 4 hours (best case) just to transfer the data across. As a result you run into a point of diminishing returns. If your encoder is real time, your total encode time (without copying the final stream back) is 6 hours. If your encoder is twice real time, (100% improvement), your total encode time is 5 hours (Only a 20% improvement over 1x), if your encoder is 10x (1000% speedup), your encode is 4:12, (a 42% improvement over 1x)

Of course, you can limit bottlenecks as much as possible, but at some point, the data has to come from a single source, and that source will be a bottleneck until we can get much faster transfer rates.
You can also reduce the time for re-encodes by only transferring the data once for the first encode and reusing it afterwards, so it's not as bad as it seems.

If your encoder is real time, your total encode time (without copying the final stream back) is 6 hours. If your encoder is twice real time, (100% improvement), your total encode time is 5 hours (Only a 20% improvement over 1x), if your encoder is 10x (1000% speedup), your encode is 4:12, (a 42% improvement over 1x)


The Sony AVC encoder is 7x. Does it win?

As with everything with Nx designation, it is meant to refer to a multiple of the base units. 2x real-time means taking TWICE real-time, not half.

Gary

I have a question for Amir, or anyone else at Microsoft, about VC-1.

Why is it that so many videos I have bought off of Video Marketplace (I'm assuming all are encoded with VC-1) have lip sync issues (especially at the beginning of the video)? And can you speak to what's being done about it? Is it generally hard to keep sync with VC-1 encoding?

Perhaps that's part of the difficulty of the codec?

Amirm, I just wondering? Are you ticked off by Sony's new campaign marketing message! The war is over go buy Blu-ray? They pulled this strategy with the PS2 and killed the Dreamcast and it worked but, Sega didn't have funds to compete with Sony. You guys do, and really,I'm hopping this is pissing you off and gets you ready so, you can dig in and make it a painful fight for Sony! Enjoying my KK, still no problems thanks!

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Industry_Trends/Disc_Sales/Sonys_New_Blu-ray_Marketing_Message:_Format_War_is_Over/468

I have a question for Amir, or anyone else at Microsoft, about VC-1.

Why is it that so many videos I have bought off of Video Marketplace (I'm assuming all are encoded with VC-1) have lip sync issues (especially at the beginning of the video)? And can you speak to what's being done about it? Is it generally hard to keep sync with VC-1 encoding?

Perhaps that's part of the difficulty of the codec?
Sync has nothing to do with the video codec - it's all about having the audio and video play together at the correct time. That's at the systems level, above any particular codec.

Can you cite some particular titles you've seen this with? There's no general issue with lip sync on the system/codec level, although there have been issues with content being provided with sync issues that needed to get corrected before encoding.

If by "a third of real time" you mean it takes 40 minutes to encode one pass of a 2 hour movie then I don't see how that could still be considered a competitive disadvantage against MPEG-2. Why's it still an issue? Is that multi-PC configuration quite expensive, hard to get, or something?
Sorry, I made it more ambiguous by trying to make myself clear :). A 3x encoder takes 6 hours to do a 2 hour movie.

Is Microsoft willing to loan PaidGeek a configuration like this so they could try it out? ;)

We don't make computers. Sony does, of course :).

At some point you run into a bottleneck. For instance, to encode a 2 hour movie, you often have about 2 terabytes of data to encode. If your server farm is connected by gigabit ethernet, it will still take over 4 hours (best case) just to transfer the data across. As a result you run into a point of diminishing returns. If your encoder is real time, your total encode time (without copying the final stream back) is 6 hours. If your encoder is twice real time, (100% improvement), your total encode time is 5 hours (Only a 20% improvement over 1x), if your encoder is 10x (1000% speedup), your encode is 4:12, (a 42% improvement over 1x)

Of course, you can limit bottlenecks as much as possible, but at some point, the data has to come from a single source, and that source will be a bottleneck until we can get much faster transfer rates.
You can also reduce the time for re-encodes by only transferring the data once for the first encode and reusing it afterwards, so it's not as bad as it seems.

bkilian -

Thanks.

I suppose the initial ingest takes some time. But I was under the impression that the actual input to VC1 was currently always a 4:2:0 format that would take only 12 bits per pixel.

This would mean that, by the time it was ready for encoding, video for a two hour movie might take up 7200 seconds * 24 frames * 1920 * 1080 * 12 bits = ~537GB (decimal billion bytes). And with faster than real time lossless compression it would probably be about half that, taking a fraction of the time for subsequent xfers. Not to mention significant time savings on repeated color conversions.

Is VC1 really doing anything useful with more than 8 bit 4:2:0 input? Or is the extra information being dragged around for editing purposes or something?

- Tom

Sync has nothing to do with the video codec - it's all about having the audio and video play together at the correct time. That's at the systems level, above any particular codec.

Can you cite some particular titles you've seen this with? There's no general issue with lip sync on the system/codec level, although there have been issues with content being provided with sync issues that needed to get corrected before encoding.

I can Ben....most of the Jericho season one videos had lip sync issues...bad early on in an episode and then got better as the video went on...oddly enough, when I downloaded an episode at 480p, no sync issues.

I can Ben....most of the Jericho season one videos had lip sync issues...bad early on in an episode and then got better as the video went on...oddly enough, when I downloaded an episode at 480p, no sync issues.

Yep that's what I was going to cite as well. Nearly all of the Jericho episodes have bad sync at the beginning. (I noticed that the pilot disappeared for a while and then came back, which made me wonder if they attempted to fix it, since that is probably the most popular download for that series)

Ben - It sounds from what you are saying like it may be a problem with the current 360 decoding software, is that the most likely culprit?

Yep that's what I was going to cite as well. Nearly all of the Jericho episodes have bad sync at the beginning. (I noticed that the pilot disappeared for a while and then came back, which made me wonder if they attempted to fix it, since that is probably the most popular download for that series)
I'll look into that. I haven't seen any of that series.

Did the pilot get better when it was reposted (you can download a repost for free)?

Ben - It sounds from what you are saying like it may be a problem with the current 360 decoding software, is that the most likely culprit?
I'm actually saying there's no issue I'm aware of. It's almost certainly a source issue as suggested above.

It's amazing how inconsistant the sources provides by studios are. Having audio out of sync is pretty common. We've seen stuff like an episode having the audio be wildly out of sync between just one set of commercial breaks, but being otherwise good. Plus almost all the 24p stuff gets provided as 60i, requiring inverse telecine. And there's the general issue of content that's mainly made of 24p elements, but was edited in 60i, or has other temporal effects applied.

Rest assured, a lot of effort goes into getting sources optimized for optimal compression. The good news is that the success of XBL video so far increases our leverage with studios to get them to get the assets right in the first place.

A nice thing about having the TV show episodes (where most source problems exist - movies come in perfect most of the time) be "download again for free forever" means that we can offer free "upgrades" of a particular episode if better source becomes available. Fortunately, most source issues can be fixed prior to compression, although it can take some time.

(as you might tell from the above, I've been doing some work with that group in the last couple of weeks).

I suppose the initial ingest takes some time. But I was under the impression that the actual input to VC1 was currently always a 4:2:0 format that would take only 12 bits per pixel.
That's the input to the codec. But the source is typically 10-bit 4:2:2, so 18 bits per pixel. The conversion from that down to the 12 bpp of 8-bit 4:2:0 can be done either before compression (which is how the current tool does it), or as part of each compression pass (the more traditional way compression tools work, to avoid having a huge intermediate file to store).

This would mean that, by the time it was ready for encoding, video for a two hour movie might take up 7200 seconds * 24 frames * 1920 * 1080 * 12 bits = ~537GB (decimal billion bytes). And with faster than real time lossless compression it would probably be about half that, taking a fraction of the time for subsequent xfers. Not to mention significant time savings on repeated color conversions.
And that's what's currently done, albeit without any lossless compression.

Is VC1 really doing anything useful with more than 8 bit 4:2:0 input? Or is the extra information being dragged around for editing purposes or something?
It's very useful to have the high-bit source so we can use our special downsampling algorithms, which help quality quite a bit (e.g., reduced banding).

Hi,

Below is some MS insider comment on soon to be released Studio Canal Titles (HD-DVDs) :

"All new Studio Canal titles (March releases) will include the dynamic sub-titles size and positionning system (Two sizes and three different positions).
Everybody should be happy with this, both ones that like sub-titles beside picture and ones that like inside picture (2.35 anamorphic users), large or small fonts...

They will also include bookmarking features and more importantly "resume" function... As a side note there is nothing in format that prevent "resume", just need to be implemented when authoring..."

That is pretty interesting comment, I thought "resume" was not possible in advanced authoring... cool !

Can any insider (both format) share any informations on similar features that could be in future US releases... ?

--Patrice

Sorry for the late reply. It takes me a bit of time to get answers for overseas questions :).

So here is the situation.

Pathé titles are distributed in France only. But for some titles such as Stalingrad and Alexander, they seem to have rights for UK market also. These titles will be on the market on March 7th. They would be sold on the Internet and could be acquired from UK for every country around the world.

Entertainment (BBC) has announced the release of Planet Earth for US market in April and later in Europe (probably around June time frame).

Regarding Momentum, they will distribute most of Studio Canal titles in UK market (the rest will be done by Optimum – acquired recently by Studio Canal itself).

Hi Amir,

Thanks for the update, nice to hear that Momentum are still going to release. Warner are showing The Island and The Prestige for release on both formats in UK in April and May (Not exclusive but better than situation in USA). Any news on fixed versions of the speed up discs or some sort of release dates for Momentum?

That is pretty interesting comment, I thought "resume" was not possible in advanced authoring... cool !
It's actually the other way around - resume requires advanced authoring.

Can any insider (both format) share any informations on similar features that could be in future US releases... ?

The all absoultely can be - advanced authoring is advanced authoring. It's just up to the designer to enable those, or any other features.

We've still only barely scratched the surface of what's possible with the advanced authoring spec.

amir/ben,

downloaded and watched crank the other night; my wife and i enjoyed it...very frenetic, couldn't go to sleep afterwards ;)

the video quality was great; out of curiosity, was this title encoded with the latest/greatest vc-1 encoder? can you comment on the abr/pbr?

thanks...

Thanks for your answer benwaggoner,

It's actually the other way around - resume requires advanced authoring.
Nice (altough I assume std authoring to be like DVDs one and all DVDs allow resume).

Afaik, most if not all HD-DVDs are in advanced mode (I think most BD aren't) but very few US title offer a resume function (I don't mean "bookmark"); is it simply something missed by authors ? or pretty complicated feature ?

We've still only barely scratched the surface of what's possible with the advanced authoring spec.
Sounds pretty nice.
It looks like most BD are in "std authoring" (similar to DVDs authoring).

I wonder if these advance authoring technics can play a role in the HD-DVD - BD "war", do you see any major features that can add a real plus ?
(Not talking of the known "hardware" things like Ethernet, double video stream, mandatory decoders, etc...)

--Patrice

The sad thing is, we can never get a real figure when asked. I have Amir telling me that Babel was AVC due to the post house not wanting to spend the extra time to get it right with VC-1 (due to grain or whatever else issues). Then you have paidgeek basically stating that it's a time vs. money deal when going with AVC instead of VC-1. I'm a BIG fan of VC-1. Infact, I consider VC-1 titles a blind buy yet wait for reviews for a Mpeg2 or AVC titles.

What I'd simply like to know is how much longer does it takes to do a proper VC-1 encode on a title such as Babel? and are steps being taken to make VC-1 more time effecient?
VC-1 should be substantially faster in the hands of a trained operator.

And of course we've got ongoing efforts to make it faster computationally and more efficient for operators. It has seen massive improvements there so far, and will continue to see futher improvements going forward.

the video quality was great; out of curiosity, was this title encoded with the latest/greatest vc-1 encoder? can you comment on the abr/pbr?

The studios ask us not to share that kind of detail, unfortunately.

Broadly, we update our tools often enough that you never actually see the results of the most recent drop. So whatever you see today, there's something more advanced being used for the next generation of titles. Of course, the quality is already extremely high, so improvement are more generally around performance and ease of use.

Ben:

What is the biggest advantage of having a software based encoder for VC-1?

Can you give us a specific task that a new generation encoder has made easier for a compressionist?

VC-1 should be substantially faster in the hands of a trained operator.

And of course we've got ongoing efforts to make it faster computationally and more efficient for operators. It has seen massive improvements there so far, and will continue to see futher improvements going forward.


Thanks Ben. Certainly hope to see VC-1 become the dominant next gen choice of codec, sooner than later....

Paidgeek:

Hi,

I had previously asked you about the possibility of Hellboy being released and you mentioned that there would be an announcement soon.

I read today that Sony UK has announced a release date of 3/19; is that the announcement you were referring to or will there be an announcement of a US release of Hellboy too?

Thanks in advance.

Is the free (5000,000 first) Bond film that comes with ps3 in Europe same as retail or a butchered edition?

Ben:

What is the biggest advantage of having a software based encoder for VC-1?
Rapid development is the biggest. It takes a lot longer to tweak a hardware implementation, even FPGA. There are hardware VC-1 implementations like Tarari that do a good job in their market, but it's hard to keep up with rapid evolution like software can do.

Can you give us a specific task that a new generation encoder has made easier for a compressionist?
Plenty! Off the top of my head:

Codec:
Automatic correction of low luma blocking
Enhanced differential qunatization
Adpative B-frame placement and delta quantization
Region of Interest sub-frame compression controls.

Workflow:
A/B source/encode and A encode/B encode comparison
Luma value remapping (make all Y'=17 into Y'=16, e.g.)
Multiple source input
Import of XML chapter mark lists

Thanks Ben. Certainly hope to see VC-1 become the dominant next gen choice of codec, sooner than later....
Me too. And there's no shortcut - we'll earn it one title and studio at a time.

This is certainly a competition very good for the consumer.

What is the biggest advantage of having a software based encoder for VC-1?Rapid development is the biggest. It takes a lot longer to tweak a hardware implementation, even FPGA. There are hardware VC-1 implementations like Tarari that do a good job in their market, but it's hard to keep up with rapid evolution like software can do. Can you give us a specific task that a new generation encoder has made easier for a compressionist? Plenty! Off the top of my head:

Codec:
Automatic correction of low luma blocking
Enhanced differential qunatization
Adpative B-frame placement and delta quantization
Region of Interest sub-frame compression controls.

Workflow:
A/B source/encode and A encode/B encode comparison
Luma value remapping (make all Y'=17 into Y'=16, e.g.)
Multiple source input
Import of XML chapter mark lists Woah, slow down there big fella...

Can you restate any of this in non technical English? I caught about 30% of it.:o

I'd like to understand as a simple layperson who doesn't speak "Compressionist" how much progress a modern codec like VC-1 has over MPEG-2 in making better PQ to HD shiny disc easier to create? :confused:

I understand the words but you were talking Star Trek to me. :D

Anyone from Sony or Microsoft...

I have recently been enjoying the high quality videos available on Xbox Live including releases from Lionsgate (aren't they BD-only studio?).
Are we going to see other BD-only studio releases on Xbox Live?
I would love to see Casino Royale in HD without having to spend US$1000 for the privilege.

I have what I hope is a non-format-confrontational question...

If anything, the Grammy's showed me that: A) The Police still sound great, and B) the combination of 1080i resolution, MPEG2@19Mbps, strobe lights, and an auditorium full of confetti, do not a pleasing picture make. :(

It's been mentioned that VC-1 has some specific tricks up it's sleeve for some such difficult-to-encode material. (I imagine something along the lines of being able to code luma deltas for a given range of pixels, hence "compressing" the effects if a specific lighting change affecting the entire frame at once... but I'm just guessing).

Would any of the compression-folk here who saw the Grammy's care to talk about what they think they could have done with the current tools, either VC-1 or AVC?

Woah, slow down there big fella...

Can you restate any of this in non technical English? I caught about 30% of it.:o

I'd like to understand as a simple layperson who doesn't speak "Compressionist" how much progress a modern codec like VC-1 has over MPEG-2 in making better PQ to HD shiny disc easier to create? :confused:

I understand the words but you were talking Star Trek to me. :D
You should have heard the examples I left out because they were too complex :).

Let's take one simple example - Differential Quantization (DQuant). This is a technique where we're able to vary the degree of quantization (how compressed it is, measured as QP, where lower is less compressed) per macroblock (MPEG-2 required the same level of quantization over the whole frame). This lets us compress areas that can afford more compression to a greater degree, and compress areas where artifacts can cause issues (particularly low luma levels) less aggressively. Over time, our codec does a better job of getting optimal DQuant the first time through. Also, we've added a region of interest (ROI) mode where an operator can specify an absolute (e.g. "make all QP=2") or relative (e.g. "lower QP in region by 2") change in the quantization for each region.

Compression is very much an itereative and evolutionary science. From version to version, there's rarely one big feature that makes all the difference. It's a progressive series of small enhancements that add up.

It's been mentioned that VC-1 has some specific tricks up it's sleeve for some such difficult-to-encode material. (I imagine something along the lines of being able to code luma deltas for a given range of pixels, hence "compressing" the effects if a specific lighting change affecting the entire frame at once... but I'm just guessing).

Would any of the compression-folk here who saw the Grammy's care to talk about what they think they could have done with the current tools, either VC-1 or AVC?
I didn't see the show myself. But yes, our current VC-1 implementation does much better with that kind of content than any MPEG-2 encoder could, or other advanced codec implementations I've seen. Part of it is along the lines of what you mention ("intensity compensation"), and part of it is something I can't talk about yet :)...

Note that this isn't entirely about codec v. codec but implementation v. implementation. Our VC-1 today is a lot better at this kind of content than it was a year ago.

The NiN disc will be a great demo of this.

I didn't see the show myself. But yes, our current VC-1 implementation does much better with that kind of content than any MPEG-2 encoder could, or other advanced codec implementations I've seen. Part of it is along the lines of what you mention ("intensity compensation"), and part of it is something I can't talk about yet :)...

Note that this isn't entirely about codec v. codec but implementation v. implementation. Our VC-1 today is a lot better at this kind of content than it was a year ago.

The NiN disc will be a great demo of this.

Aren't there real time VC1 encoding solutions out. How would they compare with MPEG2 for live events like the grammys and sporting events?

Could insiders (from both camps) please comment on the recent review of the BD version of The Departed found here (http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/departed.html)? Specifically, I'm interested in hearing opinions as to why the reviewer is reporting that the PCM track is superior to the DTHD track found on the HD DVD version. Could it be a case of the tracks having different levels? Could it be placebo (the tests weren't double-blind) or is there a basis in reality for these findings? I was under the impression that DTHD would be identical to PCM when encoded at the same bit depth...

Could insiders (from both camps) please comment on the recent review of the BD version of The Departed found here (http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/departed.html)? Specifically, I'm interested in hearing opinions as to why the reviewer is reporting that the PCM track is superior to the DTHD track found on the HD DVD version. Could it be a case of the tracks having different levels? Could it be placebo (the tests weren't double-blind) or is there a basis in reality for these findings? I was under the impression that DTHD would be identical to PCM when encoded at the same bit depth...

We are looking into it. For now, the key difference is the level. They are very different. So unless someone equalizes them, then all bets are off (TrueHD level is lower by some 4db I hear). Also, I am not 100% sure on this but there may be dialog normalization in the TrueHD track which is missing from PCM (there is no metadata of that sort in PCM).

More as we learn. For now, note that DVD forum tested both lossless codecs and found them to produce identical samples to the original….

So for now, if you are enjoying the HD DVD version, just turn up the volume some and you are golden :).

Everyone:

I noticed on Slashdot today that the latest crack fully exposes the content on both HD DVD and Blu-Ray.

"According to an article at BoingBoing, the processing keys for the AACS encryption scheme used by both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray video discs have been extracted, and a crack has been released. What this means is that there is now a method to extract the copy-protected content of any HD-DVD or Blu-Ray disc out there. This is different from Muslix64's previous crack, which only extracted the volume key for each disc. This new method bypasses this step and allows anyone to extract the data without first requiring the volume key."

So...

What is the process for responding to this crack?

In light of recent comments by both Bill Gates and Steve Jobs regarding DRM in general, what impact could this have on how studios approach releasing ANY content (SD DVD, HD DVD, Blu-Ray, Online downloads)?

Could this crack prompt the studios to develop a new business model, such as you purchase the disk/download and through a verification process such as watermarking you then have access to additional content?

So...

What is the process for responding to this crack?
First step is always to confirm what is reported. Until then, it is a rumor, and not a fact.

In light of recent comments by both Bill Gates and Steve Jobs regarding DRM in general, what impact could this have on how studios approach releasing ANY content (SD DVD, HD DVD, Blu-Ray, Online downloads)?
The copy protection on these discs is just that, copy protection. It is not a DRM system as people think. Your disc plays in everyone's machine. It has no tie to who you are or your machine. The rights on the content is static (minus the Managed Copy provisions) and very much the same as DVDs which people have adopted widely. And the systems are fully interoperable unlike challenges identified with above systems. So the issues people generally have with DRM, are not here for the most part. As a result, the comments regarding DRM in general, do not apply here either.

Could this crack prompt the studios to develop a new business model, such as you purchase the disk/download and through a verification process such as watermarking you then have access to additional content?
There is no opportunity to change the specifications for these formats. Doing so at this stage of the game, would delay them sufficiently as to make them both fail probably.

Fortunately, we don't need changes in the spec. What we need is more robust implementations. The system has provisions for any potentially hacks like this. And in this case, the answer is even simpler than before but I won’t go into the details now until the breach is confirmed.

One final request: let’s not turn this thread into DRM is good/bad. I gave a quick answer here. Follow ups should go in other threads. Thanks!

To any HD DVD insiders,

1) Brotherhood of the Wolf is a Universal title, but so far only an HD DVD from Studio Canal (France) has been announced. Will Universal release this as an HD DVD in USA?

2) Do studios track the number of HD DVDs imported?

3) When will we get more title announcements from the "300 HD DVDs in 2007?"

Aren't there real time VC1 encoding solutions out. How would they compare with MPEG2 for live events like the grammys and sporting events?
Tandberg and Inlet both have real-time VC-1 Advanced Profile encoders on the market, targeting IPTV broadcasting.

http://www.tandbergtv.com/productview.ink?productid=447
http://www.inlethd.com/products/spinnaker.html

Either would produce substantially better results than MPEG-2 at the same bitrate.

There could be other resons why a Dolby TrueHD track on HD DVD could be perceived to sound differently than a PCM track on BD.

One reson is that "advanced authored" HD DVDs put their audio through additional DSP post PCM extraction. It's part of the mixing and balancing act that they do in case there are multiple audio streams that are required to be mixed dynamically during playback. There could also be settings in the playback menu that apply dynamic compression or dialogue normalization to a Dolby TrueHD stream. All these things could potentially affect final audio quality as they'll change each bit-word so that the final stream prior to d/a conversion does not mirror the original "lossless" signal as it was first decoding during extraction.

It's one of the issues that's been discussed regarding HD DVD during playback of advanced-authored discs. It is hoped that an "audiophile" hardware designer might provide a "pass through" mode that allows audiophiles to disable the discs own instructions for DSP to get true bit-for-bit performance with lossless audio on HD DVD.


bd insiders:

doesn't bd do exactly the same thing (even with the PCM tracks), ie, mix audio sounds (eg, button sounds, menu sounds, etc.)??

One final request: let’s not turn this thread into DRM is good/bad. I gave a quick answer here. Follow ups should go in other threads. Thanks!

Actually my interest is not the discussion about DRM, although I do view AACS as definitely tied to DRM.

I'm much more interested in how the connectivity features in current HD DVD players and future Blu-Ray players might be used. Specifically, if these cracks are real, can these features be used as an incentive for people to buy instead of pirate the content. Along with the previous, have there been any discussions, and if so, is there anything that you could share?

Hi,

To HD DVD insiders, can you confirm whether or not a colorspace problems exists with the Toshiba second generation players (HD-A2 and HD-XA2) in which displays connected via HDMI to DVI are incorrectly being sent PC RGB levels instead of Studio Video levels?

If Toshiba is aware of such an issue, do you know if and when a firmware fix might be made available?

Thanks.

Larry

OK, here's an insiders take on the DTHD vs PCM argument.

On a daily basis, I have access to and use Dolby's newest encoding suite for DD, DD+, and DTHD. So of course by now, I've done some testing. In my opinion, they sound the same, sans maybe a volume difference. Both music and film content were used for comparison. This is using the same software, on the same hardware, through the same system. That's a much better testing ground than different formats on different hardware. Personally, I think we should spend more timing complaining about why we don't have more > 16bit tracks :).

I hope someone from Sony's PlayStation branch sees this, or some Sony insider relays the message to them. My apologies if this has been asked before; I've got some 40 pages of this thread yet to go through.

I'd be more than happy to replace my HTPCs with PS3s. At the moment PS3 plays some MPEG-2 encoded transport and program streams, but seems rather picky. It's even pickier when fed H.264 encoded files. I would love to see proper MPEG/MPEG-2/MPEG-4/H.264 support in PS3, preferably playing files from DVD-R/+R (also Dual layer) and LAN.

I'm aware Windows SMB (for LAN playback) and WMV/VC-1 support are most likely too much to hope for, but one has to dream. If Sony makes an all-singing, all-dancing media center HTPC-replacement out of the PS3, I'm going to buy four more of them :)

Oh yeah, I wouldn't mind seeing those same features enabled in my Xbox 360s, either.

I second this idea.

When I bought the PS3, I was expecting a console that I could use to play just about all of my hi-def media. However, as of now, this feature is VERY limited.

To me, the PS3's ability to recognize hi-def media is effectively crippled. Some of my main issues are:

- PS3's inability to recognize any filesystem other than FAT32, making it impossible for it to read anything larger than 4 GBs in size (this is my MAIN complaint).

- Lack of support for a wider range of video codecs, such as all versions of H.264. WMV, DIVX and XVID. It really is a pain when I'm forced to work around the PS3's shortcomings by attempting to convert each and every video to something the PS3 might recognize, and even THAT is rarely successful.

- Lack of support for a wider range of audio codecs, especially losseless, such as FLAC, and some lossy ones, such as Ogg Vorbis.

I know the PS3 is more than CAPABLE to do ALL of the above through firmware updates, which is why I would like any Sony insider (paidgeek) to please comment on the above stated issues. I would really appreciate it.

Thanks in advance :) .

Any Insider that can tell me who has distribution rights for Crank in Europe on HDDVD or Blu-Ray. Is it Studio Canal? Haven´t seen any release dates other than for DVD. Lionsgate regioncoded it to A on Blu-Ray so not luck importing it.

Thanks

Can an industry insider cite examples where 4k digital-intermediate recordings have been downconverted to 1920X1080 for Blue-ray or HD DVD recordings? Assume that would boost the limiting resolution and add details, as consultant Matt Cowan outlined (with photos) in a digital-production article (http://digitalcontentproducer.com/ar/video_digital_cinemas_special/) several years back. -- John

Hi Ben,



Your above statement puzzles me a bit. Shouldn't either of the realtime VC-1 encoders offer substantially better results (i.e. picture quality) than MPEG-2 and reduce the bitrate by 35% and up over MPEG-2? If they don't achieve better picture quality and reduce the bitrate at the same time then something must be wrong (either these encoders aren't up to snuff, not very likely given Tandberg's reputation for example, or VC-1 isn't fully ready yet for prime-time in live broadcast applications).



The original question concerned comments on a live broadcast stream by a realtime broadcast encoder (MPEG-2). You seem to imply that VC-1 would have performed better in this regard. I find it very hard to believe that one would get the same picture quality out of one of these VC-1 realtime live encoders with such difficult to encode content like concerts, compared to the handtweaked offline VC-1 encodes you guys do for HD-DVD and Blu-ray. Realtime encoders for broadcast can (and probably never will?), by definition, never attain the picture quality of their offline non-realtime counterparts. Correct, no?

JR

I am those original poster on this question, so to clarify (mods, this is not technically a question, but a clarification of my previous one):

I was not asking about the performance of real-time encoders, either VC-1 or AVC. I was using a live event (the Grammys) , simply because it was likely seen by many here, and would be a useful "frame of reference" (pun intended) for discussion.

In truth, I don't expect realtime hardware encoders to be capable of many perfomance tricks that any of the codecs may be capabale of, MPEG2 included.

Can any insiders confirm this regarding the PS3 being blessed as a -Live deck?:

This capability is a requirement only for BD-Live capable players, with Playstation 3 the only one currently on the market.

Translated version of original article (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9743711&&#post9743711)

In my review of the Chicago BD disc at dvdfile.com, I'm very articulate about praising the 24-bit resolution PCM audio. I wish that WB would embrace 20-24 bit encoding for their lossless titles. "CD quality" is better than lossy Dolby, but not the holy-grail of transparency that audiophiles have been waiting for. We want 20-24 bit encoding!!!
For music content, folks are justified in asking for more. Indeed, there are music concerts out of Japan with both lossless compressed audio and PCM tracks. If I am not mistaken, there is an HD DVD piano concert that has TrueHD, DTS lossless and PCM 24-bit/96khz, all on the same title!

Outside of music, people argue that point to death. I won't get into that here as it will surely derail the thread. But will leave you with one thought:

If the title had been encoded at 16-bit and the Jacket info was wrong about it being 24-bit, would you still praise it? My guess is that you would :p. So unless you had arrived at that conclusion (i.e. that it was 24-bit content) without knowing the source was 24-bits, it is hard to seperate what one wants to believe, and what was really there :). Of course, DD at 640kbps is not transparent to the source, and does create the type of distortion you mention in your review. But that should not be the reference point for why 24-bit is better. You needed the 16-bit lossless version to compare to, which obviously did not exist on the disc.

Hi Ben,

Your above statement puzzles me a bit. Shouldn't either of the realtime VC-1 encoders offer substantially better results (i.e. picture quality) than MPEG-2 and reduce the bitrate by 35% and up over MPEG-2? If they don't achieve better picture quality and reduce the bitrate at the same time then something must be wrong (either these encoders aren't up to snuff, not very likely given Tandberg's reputation for example, or VC-1 isn't fully ready yet for prime-time in live broadcast applications).
You can do either or both with VC-1 encoders. You can opt for far fewer artifacts than MPEG-2 at the same rate. Or go much lower data rate for the same quality. Or dial in some of each. Ben just made a statement for one vector of this comparison. Indeed, IPTV deployments opt opt more or less for what you state although it is hard to put a number on it. The difference is best characterized in similar quality overall to MPEG-2, at roughly 2-2.5X data saving, and improvement in how much the picture breaks up when we get squeezed.

The original question concerned comments on a live broadcast stream by a realtime broadcast encoder (MPEG-2). You seem to imply that VC-1 would have performed better in this regard. I find it very hard to believe that one would get the same picture quality out of one of these VC-1 realtime live encoders with such difficult to encode content like concerts, compared to the handtweaked offline VC-1 encodes you guys do for HD-DVD and Blu-ray. Realtime encoders for broadcast can (and probably never will?), by definition, never attain the picture quality of their offline non-realtime counterparts. Correct, no?

JR
Obviously the hand tuning would not be there in a hardware encoder. But some of the other codec techniques apply equally to real-time encodes. Indeed, we have learned a lot about how to automaticaly do things even in the context of HD DVD/VC-1 encoding as to save time for the operator. The same savings can apply to hardware encoders. Alas, as Ben said, it takes a while for these enhancements to show up in hardware devices.

OK, here's an insiders take on the DTHD vs PCM argument.

On a daily basis, I have access to and use Dolby's newest encoding suite for DD, DD+, and DTHD. So of course by now, I've done some testing. In my opinion, they sound the same, sans maybe a volume difference. Both music and film content were used for comparison. This is using the same software, on the same hardware, through the same system. That's a much better testing ground than different formats on different hardware. Personally, I think we should spend more timing complaining about why we don't have more > 16bit tracks :).

Jeff, if I could press you a bit more on this.. :rolleyes:

I am not convinced that the PCM ending up on discs is in fact lossless. For example, if the Film Master --> Digital Master conversion takes the audio from 24 bits to 16 bits, obviously that is not lossless. And if 24 film frame synchronized audio is reclocked to 23.976fps in the digital master, then that has the opportunity to also not be lossless. Am I correct in this analysis?

Can you provide a bit more info on what you mean by "why we don't have more > 16bit tracks"?

Your above statement puzzles me a bit. Shouldn't either of the realtime VC-1 encoders offer substantially better results (i.e. picture quality) than MPEG-2 and reduce the bitrate by 35% and up over MPEG-2? If they don't achieve better picture quality and reduce the bitrate at the same time then something must be wrong (either these encoders aren't up to snuff, not very likely given Tandberg's reputation for example, or VC-1 isn't fully ready yet for prime-time in live broadcast applications).
Yes, either VC-1 live encoder would produce substantially better quality at the same bitrate, or provide the same quality at a substantially lower bitrate. Or provide a mix of the two. We call that "Compression Efficiency" and that's what we focus on when we talk about codec improvements, not about whether the emphasis is on improving quality or reducing data rate. Better efficiency means the choice of emphasis gets to be made in each environment.

The original question concerned comments on a live broadcast stream by a realtime broadcast encoder (MPEG-2). You seem to imply that VC-1 would have performed better in this regard. I find it very hard to believe that one would get the same picture quality out of one of these VC-1 realtime live encoders with such difficult to encode content like concerts, compared to the handtweaked offline VC-1 encodes you guys do for HD-DVD and Blu-ray. Realtime encoders for broadcast can (and probably never will?), by definition, never attain the picture quality of their offline non-realtime counterparts. Correct, no?

Yes, either VC-1 realtime encoder would have looked a lot better than the MPEG-2 at the same data rate with that content. We're better than MPEG-2 in live and in offline encoding scenarios. But yes, clearly offline encoding can be better than online (2-pass is a big advantage, for example). VC-1 live versus MPEG-2 offline would have a smaller quality gap. But since the live and offline markets are so different, that's not a real-world comparison that comes up that often.

Amir,

Any news on the DD+ update for the 360 add on drive?

Thanks,
Steve

Off topic posts, posts by non-insiders and posts that weren't really questions have been removed. PM me with errors.

Can an industry insider cite examples where 4k digital-intermediate recordings have been downconverted to 1920X1080 for Blue-ray or HD DVD recordings? Assume that would boost the limiting resolution and add details, -- John

Good question.

Can the insiders discuss with reference to some or all of these films which were finished with 4K DIGITAL INTERMEDIATES;

LITTLE CHILDREN
A GOOD YEAR
THE BLACK DAHLIA
The DaVINCI CODE
RV
CASANOVA
RENT
ThE FAMILY STONE
JARHEAD
STEALTH
OCEANS 12
THE VILLAGE
SPIDERMAN TWO


-30-

Amir,

Any news on the DD+ update for the 360 add on drive?

Thanks,
Steve
I am hoping to share some information "real soon now" :).

I really really hope that real soon now means sometime this week :)

Question for Amir:

A major retailer in Australia, JB HiFi, just announced that they would sell BD exclusively and would not stock HD-DVD at all. Much to the shock of pre-launch adopters of HD-DVD in Australia who have, like myself, been importing from the US all of our players & HD software.

I was wondering, what plans Microsoft had in regards to the XBox360 add-on drive that will be launching here shortly, if they plan to market HD as heavily here as the Sony is BD. And also if they will be giving retailers incentives to stock HD, especially if the same stores that are selling the add-on drive but no software.

Cheers,

Stu

Paidgeek,

I am wondering about the status of The Fifth Element redo. More specifically is there any word on when it will be available and if the exchange program still in place. Also, how is it looking? I am very much anticipating the "redo" BD version of this movie.

Thanks in advance

-Tom

Jeff, if I could press you a bit more on this.. :rolleyes:

I am not convinced that the PCM ending up on discs is in fact lossless. For example, if the Film Master --> Digital Master conversion takes the audio from 24 bits to 16 bits, obviously that is not lossless. And if 24 film frame synchronized audio is reclocked to 23.976fps in the digital master, then that has the opportunity to also not be lossless. Am I correct in this analysis?

Can you provide a bit more info on what you mean by "why we don't have more > 16bit tracks"?
You are correct. There was a pretty in depth debate in this thread not to long ago about just what you are asking. If a soundtrack was originally recorded at 24bit but was presented as 16bit PCM on the disc, no it's not truly lossless to the master but is lossless as far as compression goes.

My "why we don't have more > 16bit tracks" statement has to do with why Sony and Warner give us 16bit tracks, PCM and TrueHD respectively, when some were mastered at higher bit rates. I've had the opportunity to hear the source on some of them and they were all 24bit. So why 16bit on the releases? More than likely a space or bandwidth constraint, but I'd like to hear the official reason.

You are correct. There was a pretty in depth debate in this thread not to long ago about just what you are asking. If a soundtrack was originally recorded at 24bit but was presented as 16bit PCM on the disc, no it's not truly lossless to the master but is lossless as far as compression goes.

My "why we don't have more > 16bit tracks" statement has to do with why Sony and Warner give us 16bit tracks, PCM and TrueHD respectively, when some were mastered at higher bit rates. I've had the opportunity to hear the source on some of them and they were all 24bit. So why 16bit on the releases? More than likely a space or bandwidth constraint, but I'd like to hear the official reason.

I would say that for the last 7-8 years, I would say that 90-95% of all films to come out of Hollywood has a LPCM 24 bit master, and I would say that moves up to 99% for the last 5 years... I have also been wondering why the 16 bit downconversion has been neccesary.

And the thing to remember about a lossless codec is that it is transparent to the master it was made from, and that doesn't always mean the original 24 bit printmaster... a matter of semantics, but an important one none the less.

Question for Amir:

A major retailer in Australia, JB HiFi, just announced that they would sell BD exclusively and would not stock HD-DVD at all. Much to the shock of pre-launch adopters of HD-DVD in Australia who have, like myself, been importing from the US all of our players & HD software.

I was wondering, what plans Microsoft had in regards to the XBox360 add-on drive that will be launching here shortly, if they plan to market HD as heavily here as the Sony is BD. And also if they will be giving retailers incentives to stock HD, especially if the same stores that are selling the add-on drive but no software.

Cheers,

Stu


Thats weird. I read these news on the internetas: we are selling only BD hardware. With the exception of the xbox HD DVD addon. We are only selling BD discs. With the exception of the HD DVD discs we sell online. Did I got these news wrong or did you?

@armir: "real soon now"... you are cruel... ;). I feel like I am 4 years old again, it is christmas and I am waiting for a little bell to ring so I can enter the living room and check out the presents under the christmas tree... BTW what is the meaning of the -> " <- Does it mean, that you do not mean what you write? Is "real soon now" meant ironic?

With regard to audio on either format, what I would like to understand is why do Warner persist in offering 640kbps tracks as their staple fare? Do they not like us very much?

I thought both formats should have ample room on disc for at least one lossless (don't care if it's PCM, Dolby or DTS) track? Is this not the case? So far on HD-DVD lossless has been more the exception than the rule? Do insiders feel that is acceptable for either format?

In tems of bit depth and sample rate, personally I would prefer it to match whatever the films sound was mixed at. I guess that will vary. Wouldn't doing this actually be less encoding work as you wouldn't have to create a downsampled track in some instances to start with??

And again Warner, give us decent sound, we still haven't forgotten that the Matrix on DVD had a paltry 384Kbps, 640 on HD even if that's almost double the rate it's not good enough. :mad:

I would say that for the last 7-8 years, I would say that 90-95% of all films to come out of Hollywood has a LPCM 24 bit master, and I would say that moves up to 99% for the last 5 years... I have also been wondering why the 16 bit downconversion has been neccesary.

And the thing to remember about a lossless codec is that it is transparent to the master it was made from, and that doesn't always mean the original 24 bit printmaster... a matter of semantics, but an important one none the less.

fm,

are all the 'elements' that a sound mixer would use sourced at 24 bit? if not, would that be a valid reason in your opinion to bring everything to the lowest common denominator?

are there other factors that could come into play on the workflow/tools side; eg, at least with non-catalog/day-date releases, since a studio needs to author for sd dvd as well as the high def and even broadcast?

Regarding the cost of players -

A year from now will it be significantly less expensive to build a BD stand alone player instead of a universal player? Will non-subsudized universal players be fairly price competitve with non-subsudized stand alone BD players in the future?

@armir: "real soon now"... you are cruel... ;). I feel like I am 4 years old again, it is christmas and I am waiting for a little bell to ring so I can enter the living room and check out the presents under the christmas tree... BTW what is the meaning of the -> " <- Does it mean, that you do not mean what you write? Is "real soon now" meant ironic?
Sorry, it is an old computer hobbyist joke. There was a science fiction writer (Jerry Purnell) who used to write computer articles in the bible of 1970s, early 1980s called "Byte Magazine." He would use the expression "real soon now" as in, "I see it when I believe it" when manufacturers would promise him products in a few weeks but he didn't really believe it.

I have asked you so many times to wait that I thought if I say it one more time, it is off little value :). So I went ahead and put the above stamp on it before someone else did :).

I just checked and see that Jerry wrote for Byte(.com) into 1990s. Here is a quick find: http://www.byte.com/art/9804/sec13/art1.htm. He used to have quite a fan club as he would do these really interesting hands on tests of equipment which no one else used to do at the time. And with his great skills as a writer, would make them so interesting to read. Oh, the good old days of putting PCs together from scratch…

I think he also coined the phrase "Good enough" when talking about software.

Diogen.

Amir:

Jerry Pournelle from Byte is still kicking, but semi-retired, but he posts on a wide range of stream of conciousness posts.

http://www.jerrypournelle.com

http://www.chaosmanorreviews.com/

http://www.jerrypournelle.com/whatis.html

all sites linked together



He still uses the phrase "good enough" :)

Yes, either VC-1 live encoder would produce substantially better quality at the same bitrate, or provide the same quality at a substantially lower bitrate. Or provide a mix of the two. We call that "Compression Efficiency" and that's what we focus on when we talk about codec improvements, not about whether the emphasis is on improving quality or reducing data rate. Better efficiency means the choice of emphasis gets to be made in each environment.

Yes, either VC-1 realtime encoder would have looked a lot better than the MPEG-2 at the same data rate with that content. We're better than MPEG-2 in live and in offline encoding scenarios. But yes, clearly offline encoding can be better than online (2-pass is a big advantage, for example). VC-1 live versus MPEG-2 offline would have a smaller quality gap. But since the live and offline markets are so different, that's not a real-world comparison that comes up that often.
IPTV providers get almost all their content from the sky (C/Ku band) at up to 8Mbps MPEG-2 for SD content and up to 19.2Mbps MPEG-2 for HD content.

So they have 3 options for delivering this content to the end user;

1. Pass those streams directly to the customer untouched
2. Transrate them to lower bit-rate MPEG-2
3. Transcode them to VC-1 or AVC

Since option 2 or 3 will always introduce additional loss (lossy codec to lossy codec), the best solution would be for the original content to be encoded in VC-1 or AVC in the first place before being beamed up to the sats. This would be for both live events and movies from the likes of HBO.

Is a transition to VC-1 or AVC ever going to take place for content as mentioned in the above paragraph? If so, any idea of the timeframe?

IPTV providers also get their VOD content from the sky in the form of MPEG-2 assets. Most of the time, that content is "watered down" compared to DVDs for SD content, and the same is likely true for HD VOD assets as well.

Is it likely that VOD content providers will switch to VC-1 or AVC at some point and push their assets out to their customers (AT&T, Verizon, etc that way)?

Amir,

Just saw the announcement for Studio Canal's first release with Blu Ray. I though they were HD DVD exclusive? Any comment?

A year from now will it be significantly less expensive to build a BD stand alone player instead of a universal player?IMO, yes. A universal player won't benefit from economies of scale on the drive itself (since it'll need a much more specialized drive capable of reading both formats), will carry twice the royalty burden, require twice the testing, etc.
Will non-subsudized universal players be fairly price competitve with non-subsudized stand alone BD players in the future?Not in my opinion.

Is it likely that VOD content providers will switch to VC-1 or AVC at some point and push their assets out to their customers (AT&T, Verizon, etc that way)?Most IPTV and satellite providers have selected or are transitioning to AVC, so I'd think it likely the source video would eventually transition as well (it could always be reencoded as MPEG2 where necessary).

IPTV providers get almost all their content from the sky (C/Ku band) at up to 8Mbps MPEG-2 for SD content and up to 19.2Mbps MPEG-2 for HD content.
It's quite a bit more fragmented here in the USA, due to the huge number of local channels that get encoded at the head-end. But yes, comign from MPEG-2 source is definitely a significant scenario.

So they have 3 options for delivering this content to the end user;

1. Pass those streams directly to the customer untouched
2. Transrate them to lower bit-rate MPEG-2
3. Transcode them to VC-1 or AVC

Since option 2 or 3 will always introduce additional loss (lossy codec to lossy codec), the best solution would be for the original content to be encoded in VC-1 or AVC in the first place before being beamed up to the sats. This would be for both live events and movies from the likes of HBO.
Indeed.

Or transition to an advanced codec in the MPEG-2 transport stream (we have a spec for this for VC-1, for example), so the transmission scheme can be continued, but with much higher quality encoding.

Is a transition to VC-1 or AVC ever going to take place for content as mentioned in the above paragraph? If so, any idea of the timeframe?
Experimentation is already ongoing for VC-1 transport.

IPTV providers also get their VOD content from the sky in the form of MPEG-2 assets. Most of the time, that content is "watered down" compared to DVDs for SD content, and the same is likely true for HD VOD assets as well.
We see most of the VOD ingest taking place from file or tape, not from transmissions. This is nice, as we can use non-real time encoding techniques, like 2-pass.

Is it likely that VOD content providers will switch to VC-1 or AVC at some point and push their assets out to their customers (AT&T, Verizon, etc that way)?[/QUOTE]
VC-1 is the main codec used for VOD content in existing IPTV trials. While we're a little behind today on the real-time encoding since H.264 products were there first, VC-1 had a lead in product availability and maturity for VOD authoring, so we're leading there.

Any Insider that can tell me who has distribution rights for Crank in Europe on HDDVD or Blu-Ray. Is it Studio Canal? Haven´t seen any release dates other than for DVD. Lionsgate regioncoded it to A on Blu-Ray so not luck importing it.

Thanks
Not an insider but Crank (standard dvd) was released in the UK by Universal.

I would like to know about the Studio Canal BD release also? Does anyone have anymore information on this?

...


Or transition to an advanced codec in the MPEG-2 transport stream (we have a spec for this for VC-1, for example), so the transmission scheme can be continued, but with much higher quality encoding.


...

Isn't that what Blu-ray already does, ie, use the MPEG-2 transport stream?

Hi Ben,

VC-1 is the main codec used for VOD content in existing IPTV trials.

Could you be a little bit more specific in which countries/regions of the world you think VC-1 is the main codec used for VOD content in existing IPTV trials? Here in The Netherlands we have two big ISPs (KPN, Tele2) currently operating large IPTV services (no trials, the real deal!). MPEG-2 is the prevalent codec for the live broadcast channels and for the VOD content as well. Although, there seems to be a starting trend over here to migrate from MPEG-2 to "MPEG-4". The industry over here seems to favor H.264 though (the ISPs are actually very tight lipped over which flavor of "MPEG-4" is going to be used, but rumours are it's going to be H.264).

JR

IMO, yes. A universal player won't benefit from economies of scale on the drive itself (since it'll need a much more specialized drive capable of reading both formats), will carry twice the royalty burden, require twice the testing, etc.
Not in my opinion.

Thanks.

Could you be a little bit more specific in which countries/regions of the world you think VC-1 is the main codec used for VOD content in existing IPTV trials? Here in The Netherlands we have two big ISPs (KPN, Tele2) currently operating large IPTV services (no trials, the real deal!). MPEG-2 is the prevalent codec for the live broadcast channels and for the VOD content as well. Although, there seems to be a starting trend over here to migrate from MPEG-2 to "MPEG-4". The industry over here seems to favor H.264 though (the ISPs are actually very tight lipped over which flavor of "MPEG-4" is going to be used, but rumours are it's going to be H.264).

Here's a list of our IPTV customers:

http://www.microsoft.com/tv/CustomersAndPartners.mspx

AT&T
Beijing Netcom
Bell Canada
BT
Club Internet/T-Online France
Deutsche Telekom
Magyar TeleKom
Reliance Infocomm
Singtel
Slovak Telekom
Swisscom
Telecom Italia
Telecom South Africa
WIND
Ya.com

Note that our IPTV isn't tied to VC-1 - customers can chose whatever codec they like.

Or transition to an advanced codec in the MPEG-2 transport stream (we have a spec for this for VC-1, for example), so the transmission scheme can be continued, but with much higher quality encoding.
That's very interesting. So are you saying that a lot of the "heavy lifting" has already been done by way of the MPEG-2 encode, and that transcoding the stream to VC-1 requires less additional work and that the quality of a real-time transcode can approach that of a 2-pass encode?

We see most of the VOD ingest taking place from file or tape, not from transmissions. This is nice, as we can use non-real time encoding techniques, like 2-pass.
This technique should also be possible for someone getting their VOD content from an aggregator like TVN, which is pitched via sattelite to a local catcher, who in turn moves the assets to the MS IPTV VOD server(s), yes?

That's very interesting. So are you saying that a lot of the "heavy lifting" has already been done by way of the MPEG-2 encode, and that transcoding the stream to VC-1 requires less additional work and that the quality of a real-time transcode can approach that of a 2-pass encode?
No, the MPEG-2 transport stream is just the transport infratructure - the encode would all be VC-1. But by fitting inside the MPEG-2 transport stream, we can travel through the existing infrastructure of switches, satellites, etcetera.

This technique should also be possible for someone getting their VOD content from an aggregator like TVN, which is pitched via sattelite to a local catcher, who in turn moves the assets to the MS IPTV VOD server(s), yes?
Correct. You can just upgrade the encoder and decoder, but the existing infrastructure between the two can be unchanged.

Amir,

Just saw the announcement for Studio Canal's first release with Blu Ray. I though they were HD DVD exclusive? Any comment?

Amir, you have always claimed a strong relationship between Microsoft and Studio Canal. Has this relationship been changed recently?

Another question, when did Microsoft become aware of Studio Canal's BD release plans? You've always indicated they were HD DVD exclusive (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9792419&&#post9792419), even as late as Jan 24, 2007. I guess even if you were under a NDA, the cat's out of the bag now. Do you know how many HD DVD and BD releases are in the works now?

Hi Ben,

I am intriqued by Dish Network's VOD offering with their updated 622 DVR and you seem quite knowledgable (surely, an understatement) about VC-1 implementations in the industry. Can you tell me, or, at least point me in the right direction for information on:

VC-1 resolution? 720p or 1080i? Both?
Data rates?
When Dish plans on rolling this out for VC-1?
Any other pertinent technical info related to Dish's VC-1 VOD?

(I can't seem to find any technical info from Dish's site.)

Thanks in advance,

Matt

Hi Ben,

I am intriqued by Dish Network's VOD offering with their updated 622 DVR and you seem quite knowledgable (surely, an understatement) about VC-1 implementations in the industry. Can you tell me, or, at least point me in the right direction for information on:

VC-1 resolution? 720p or 1080i? Both?
Data rates?
When Dish plans on rolling this out for VC-1?
Any other pertinent technical info related to Dish's VC-1 VOD?

(I can't seem to find any technical info from Dish's site.)

I actually haven't had any invovlement with Dish. I'll see if I can track down any public info.

DD+ is fine on Xbox. The levels may not be right and the team is checking into that but there is nothing broken about it. Issue is that in the process of getting it out of the 360 over optical, we have to convert it back to DD and that impacts the qualtiy. We have the DTS encoder ready but per my previous notes, I don't have a schedule of when that updates goes out but it should be in weeks, rather than months.

Hi Amir,
Has this now changed to 'in months,rather than years'?
ta.

Hi Amir,
Has this now changed to 'in months,rather than years'?
ta.

Yes Amir

I agree that this seems to be dragging on and on. I remember you saying that this "update" was ready but being rolled into a larger collection of "updates" rather than being released straight away.
Should we give up hope?

Yes Amir

I agree that this seems to be dragging on and on. I remember you saying that this "update" was ready but being rolled into a larger collection of "updates" rather than being released straight away.
Should we give up hope?
I am so sorry about lack of information. But please, rest assured that the teams have been working very hard to produce a very nice update for the HD DVD playback. The only delay is the ability in getting the information, rather than people working on the code.

It has been difficult to get resolution on getting you a time frame internally. Don't ask me why. I have no good excuse for it as it is very unacceptable in my book. I am taking stronger action to see what comes from it. Again, I am very sorry about this.

Amir, you have always claimed a strong relationship between Microsoft and Studio Canal. Has this relationship been changed recently?

Another question, when did Microsoft become aware of Studio Canal's BD release plans? You've always indicated they were HD DVD exclusive (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9792419&&#post9792419), even as late as Jan 24, 2007. I guess even if you were under a NDA, the cat's out of the bag now. Do you know how many HD DVD and BD releases are in the works now?
I am sorry for the late reply. Have been in and out of the hospital/doctor's offices for the last week or so....

Anyway, our relationship with Studio Canal is exceptionally good and positive. As is the large ecosystem of encoding/mastering/production partners in Europe. SC announced that they would have 30 titles on HD DVD and as such, we very much enjoy and appreciate their support of HD DVD/VC-1/HDi.

With that said, please note that I cannot speak on behalf of SC. What I can tell you is that we have checked with them and they say the report is incorrect. While they have never said they are "exclusive" to HD DVD (neither has any other studio regardless of whether they produce in one format or two), currently they are not producing BD titles. So they continue to be in “HD DVD camp” as I had mentioned before.

In the interest of fair reporting, I believe they have said that they would produce BD titles in “2007” so at some point there may distribute in that format. But until they do, they have to put up with us as their supplier of technology :).

Please note that should SC decide to produce a BD title, I hope there is no expectation for me to come here to pre-announce it. I am sure Sony/Paid would not do this, should Disney decide to do the same :). Their plans are theirs and only they can announce them.

Dear Amir

1. Is downloading audio and subtitles on HD DVD going to kick off this year?

2. When downloading content onto external storage, e.g. external hard drive, can the performance be bogged down by the hard drive?

3. Is erasing DLC on flash memory in the player or on external hard drive going to work similarly to Xbox Live where I can simply download it again for free?

Currently I own Xbox 360 HD DVD player and 4 HD DVDs

Thanks

HD DVD insider;

Any word at all on firmware for the A1/XA1'a?

Dear Amir

1. Is downloading audio and subtitles on HD DVD going to kick off this year?
That's my hope but I don't have any specifics right now.

2. When downloading content onto external storage, e.g. external hard drive, can the performance be bogged down by the hard drive?
The hard drive is infinitely faster than either optical format. So anything being read from it, actually works a lot better!

3. Is erasing DLC on flash memory in the player or on external hard drive going to work similarly to Xbox Live where I can simply download it again for free?
It is up to the studios to decide how to charge for it. I supsect though, that things like subtitles would be free of charge.

Currently I own Xbox 360 HD DVD player and 4 HD DVDs

Thanks
Thanks for your support!

Dear Brother amir,
I am anxiously waiting for add on sound/audio issue?

I have a question about PEP and its first pass (analyze):

PEP uses (can use) many PC's in network for encoding and it has to split input file into small parts. Every part is analyze by different PC so there are many info files at the end of the 1st pass (I assume that each part has the same average bitrate to keep proper whole avg. bitrate ).

Does PEP analyze all these small info parts and create one big (proper) information file and than actualize each small info file to make sure that different parts have different average bitrate?

Hi Amir. I am sure you are getting sick of people asking you about the HD-DVD DTS update. I am happy that it is in the works, but I think myself and others are getting impatient. I love the XBOX HD-DVD addon but I am reluctant to watch any HD-DVDs knowing that I would get better sound from DVDs. Kinda a bummer really. I would love to see HD-DVD do very well, but from what I have seen on the forum quite a few people have or are considering returning there Add ons. Maybe if somone on the Xbox team understood how bad this is for HD-DVD things might move quicker.

Microsoft should be thanking you and kissing your ass for the great PR work you do for the Xbox team and HD-DVD in general. I am sure I speak for everyone if not the majority when I say thank you for keeping us updated on HD-DVD happenings.

For HD-DVDs sake I hope Universal starts ramping up the releases, it seems there are new BR discs everywhere.

Thanks again Amir.

Teddy

Paidgeek,

I am wondering about the status of The Fifth Element redo. More specifically is there any word on when it will be available and if the exchange program still in place. Also, how is it looking? I am very much anticipating the "redo" BD version of this movie.

Thanks in advance

-Tom

Sorry for the late response.

The new transfer is finished and is a big improvement. We are still planning an informal exchange program for those un-happy with the original release. As part of the re-release, new added value is being prepared and consequently we won't be releasing it until later in the year.

Sorry for the late response.

The new transfer is finished and is a big improvement. We are still planning an informal exchange program for those un-happy with the original release. As part of the re-release, new added value is being prepared and consequently we won't be releasing it until later in the year.
Great news, and thanks for the reply. Keep up the good work!

-Tom

I am sorry for the late reply. Have been in and out of the hospital/doctor's offices for the last week or so....

I hope you are are feeling better.

Amirm,

Did the hospital offer HD DVD or BD as an option for the room? ;) :)

Wayne

paidgeek,

Sorry if this has already been covered, but can you give us an idea of how region coding on Blu-ray would affect releases in Europe where the releasing party only has rights for Europe and not for the US. Basically, would they be allowed to release it as open (not limited to a region) in that case?

Thanks,
Darin

paidgeek,

Sorry if this has already been covered, but can you give us an idea of how region coding on Blu-ray would affect releases in Europe where the releasing party only has rights for Europe and not for the US. Basically, would they be allowed to release it as open (not limited to a region) in that case?

Thanks,
Darin

There is no obligation to avoid a region code for a country where a studio does not have rights. It would be impractical to do so because rights often vary country be country rather than continent by continent the latter being roughly aligned with the region codes.

It has been difficult to get resolution on getting you a time frame internally. Don't ask me why. I have no good excuse for it as it is very unacceptable in my book. I am taking stronger action to see what comes from it. Again, I am very sorry about this.

Appreciate the honesty.
Thanks for your work to date.

Did you pass on the stats of your combo poll to the studios yet?
Any feedback?

I have a question about PEP and its first pass (analyze):

PEP uses (can use) many PC's in network for encoding and it has to split input file into small parts. Every part is analyze by different PC so there are many info files at the end of the 1st pass (I assume that each part has the same average bitrate to keep proper whole avg. bitrate ).

Does PEP analyze all these small info parts and create one big (proper) information file and than actualize each small info file to make sure that different parts have different average bitrate?
Yes, PEP absolutely does VBR over the whole duration of the film, coordinating the 1st pass results from each segment. This contrasts with the approach used by some other grid compression systems, like Apple's Compressor (which only does VBR across the segment on each worker node).

Reposting of my question from the 12th:

Paidgeek:

Hi,

I had previously asked you about the possibility of Hellboy being released and you mentioned that there would be an announcement soon.

I read today that Sony UK has announced a release date of 3/19; is that the announcement you were referring to or will there be an announcement (soon) for a US release of Hellboy too?

Thanks in advance.

Yes, PEP absolutely does VBR over the whole duration of the film, coordinating the 1st pass results from each segment. This contrasts with the approach used by some other grid compression systems, like Apple's Compressor (which only does VBR across the segment on each worker node).
That's good. PEP is probably one of the few network encoders which supports that.

Ben,

I've noticed strange problems with colors on Batman Begins. Some parts of the picture (eg. faces of actors) look like oversaturated. It looks really wrong. Color settings are set correctly in PowerDVD, because these appear only in some parts of the picture and other movies are fine. Maybe it's something intersting for you to check.

24 or 25 for Europe?

I've read first part of the questions to insiders and I found info that movies in Europe will be realesed in 24 frames, not 25. Is it still true?
Is it general rule or can I do it in 25?

What about standard content disks only. Is there still problem with playing these disks (made with Scenarist) on Toshiba players? How many these kind of disks have been realesed?

Thx
kolak

I've noticed strange problems with colors on Batman Begins. Some parts of the picture (eg. faces of actors) look like oversaturated. It looks really wrong. Color settings are set correctly in PowerDVD, because these appear only in some parts of the picture and other movies are fine. Maybe it's something intersting for you to check.
The colors in BB are as they're supposed to appear - that kind of stuff gets extensively QA'ed. And color shifts themselves aren't really introduced as part of compression - PEP takes the straight-up 709 4:2:0 data in as source, so there's no scope for a problem in color conversion.

Ben,
are you the person to contact about PEP? We will be doing few HD projects in this year and we want to use PEP.
Who should we contact with?

thx
kolak

Ben,
are you the person to contact about PEP? We will be doing few HD projects in this year and we want to use PEP.
Who should we contact with?

Yes, go ahead and PM me with your details.

Amir, hope you are feeling better.

With that said, please note that I cannot speak on behalf of SC. What I can tell you is that we have checked with them and they say the report is incorrect. While they have never said they are "exclusive" to HD DVD (neither has any other studio regardless of whether they produce in one format or two), currently they are not producing BD titles. So they continue to be in “HD DVD camp” as I had mentioned before.

While it is true that they are not "currently" producing titles for Blu-ray, they do have some announced:

http://studiocanaldvd.com/fr/produit_6_scv_35264.php

Do you know if they have corrected the PAL audio pitch problem? Also, do you know if they are going to stick with VC-1 for Blu-ray? Will it be the same encode as they put out for their HD DVDs?

I got error C667000B when trying to select U-Control for Miami Vice from the main menu (having just fired up the 360). I also had this same issue before with Hulk, as I posted here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9542830&&#post9542830).

I tried 3 times in a row with the same effect, all from a fresh entry into the HDDVD from the standard Blade interface (you have no choice but to exit HDDVD when it has this error). I was able to start U-Control by pressing A from the remote control, however (I didn't try this until the movie was half way through, cause it was kinda bugging me).

Can anyone Microsoft insider tell me if there's a fix for this? I'm up to date on XBL Silver (my free gold expired long ago).

I see

Bridge on the River Kwai
Guns of Navarone
Lawrence of Arabia

are all having new releases on DVD, will we also see a BD version Paidgeek? Please :)

Amir, hope you are feeling better.
Thanks. Still not back to normal but hard to stay away from AVS for long. :)

While it is true that they are not "currently" producing titles for Blu-ray, they do have some announced:

http://studiocanaldvd.com/fr/produit_6_scv_35264.php
We forwarded the same link to them and they say that is a mistake!

Do you know if they have corrected the PAL audio pitch problem? Also, do you know if they are going to stick with VC-1 for Blu-ray? Will it be the same encode as they put out for their HD DVDs?
Again, until they announce BD plans, it is hard to comment on details of their production.

As to audio, since BD spins faster, then they will have high pitched sound regardless. :D

To any insider..

What is the feasibility of having a dual-deck universal player? One deck is BD and the other deck HD DVD/DVD/CD (or some combination thereabouts). Kind of like the combo DVD & VHS decks.


edit:As to audio, since BD spins faster, then they will have high pitched sound regardless. heh, hopefully people will realize this is a joke :p

To any insider..

What is the feasibility of having a dual-deck universal player? One deck is BD and the other deck HD DVD/DVD/CD (or some combination thereabouts). Kind of like the combo DVD & VHS decks.
Don't see any technical problems with doing this. Indeed, some people will build such a machine around a PC. So stand-alone could do the same.

As a funny aside, first generation BD recorders in Japan from Panasonic and I believe Sharp, did this internally. They couldn't build a drive which could read DVDs and BDs, so they put two drives inside and shuttled the media between them!

I just watched Lady in the Water, a VC-1 Blu-Ray that hovers between 9-12 mbps. Because of the severely low bitrate, this may be single worse looking transfer I've seen on Blu-Ray, due to dark motion artifacts, lack of sharpness / detail and severe color crushing.

I've heard various statements about Micrsoft's intentions, and I would to see if I can have them clarified in this context.

(1) Is Microsoft specifically pushing and/or lobbying studios to use lower bitrates (~10mbps) on encodes of Blu-Ray and HD-DVD titles?

(2) What is the reason to lobby for lower bitrates when there is sufficient space available on either Blu-Ray or HD-DVD (with 25, 30 and 50 GB available)?

(3) Is this because Microsoft is determined to provide HD content via a download service (such as XBox live)?

Most importanlty, does Microsoft understand that lack of quality on a transfer such as Lady in the Water is unacceptable and will result in lost sales for the studios?

-Pie

I just watched Lady in the Water, a VC-1 Blu-Ray that hovers between 9-12 mbps. Because of the severely low bitrate, this may be single worse looking transfer I've seen on Blu-Ray, due to dark motion artifacts, lack of sharpness / detail and severe color crushing.
I have the title but have not watched it. Will do so later. Until then, I hope you know that the soft look of this movie is part of the way it was produced.

I've heard various statements about Micrsoft's intentions, and I would to see if I can have them clarified in this context.

(1) Is Microsoft specifically pushing and/or lobbying studios to use lower bitrates (~10mbps) on encodes of Blu-Ray and HD-DVD titles?
No. We have nothing to do with such decisions. Studios have compressionists who make these decisions. We are only there to help, should they have questions.

(2) What is the reason to lobby for lower bitrates when there is sufficient space available on either Blu-Ray or HD-DVD (with 25, 30 and 50 GB available)?
Again, we don't lobby.


(3) Is this because Microsoft is determined to provide HD content via a download service (such as XBox live)?
When we provide a download service, we manage the compression with completely different workflow and services used to arrive at that. So there is no consideration in how a movie is encoded in HD DVD/BD wrt to what we want to use for our own download service.


Most importanlty, does Microsoft understand that lack of quality on a transfer such as Lady in the Water is unacceptable and will result in lost sales for the studios?

-Pie
I am not going to agree with this statement one way or the other until I watch the title. Untill then, per above, your assumption is incorrect. We have invested huge amount of engineering over the last two years to build the best compression technology for these formats. There are many incredible titles in VC-1 (Hulk, King Kong, etc.). So please don't make such categorical statements without considering all the factors that go into production of a movie in these formats. We absolutely care about the picture quality....

Lady in the Water is made to look like that. No matter if on VC1 or any other encoding on either format. At this point saying the encoding process used being MPEG 2, AVC or VC1 is responsible for a movie looking bad is just wrong. They arent, its the film or a crappy source made by the studio.

I will await your viewing of the disk, but would like to do some clarifying.

I have the title but have not watched it. Will do so later. Until then, I hope you know that the soft look of this movie is part of the way it was produced.

I am aware that softness is a film issue, though it looked to me like resolution suffered much more than I remember in the theater, and it's also why I cited other problems.

No. We have nothing to do with such decisions. Studios have compressionists who make these decisions. We are only there to help, should they have questions.


To ask the above question differently, have you marketed VC-1 as (or specifically told studios that it's) capable of "high quality" low-bitrate (~10mbps) encodes?

I ask this because I remember a post by you stating that Microsoft achieved sub-10mbps encodes with VC-1 (unfortunately, I do not have a link). It struck me as odd that you would want your codec to run at such a low bitrate in the context of the new high-capacity optical formats.

I am not going to agree with this statement one way or the other until I watch the title. Untill then, per above, your assumption is incorrect. We have invested huge amount of engineering over the last two years to build the best compression technology for these formats. There are many incredible titles in VC-1 (Hulk, King Kong, etc.). So please don't make such categorical statements without considering all the factors that go into production of a movie in these formats. We absolutely care about the picture quality....

Of course I considered that the factors that go into movie production, hence me citing more than softness as an issue. Also, for the sake of brevity, I left out my praise for other VC-1 titles that I own, such as Unforgiven, which run at much higher bitrates, and look beautiful.

OTOH, I will stand by my statements. It looks to me like Lady in the Water was bitrate-starved, and making a categorical statement along those lines is absolutely fair. Any codec I've seen, when bitrate-starved, can suffer from any or all of the issues I cited.

Note that your "counterpart" in this thread, benwagonner, has made similar categorical statements about MPEG2 (I am only citing this because I feel it's valid to make such statements and discuss them).

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9659232#post9659232

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9574026&&#post9574026

Hmm... I'm not very good at the brevity thing. :)

-Pie

Reposting of my question from the 12th:

Paidgeek:

Hi,

I had previously asked you about the possibility of Hellboy being released and you mentioned that there would be an announcement soon.

I read today that Sony UK has announced a release date of 3/19; is that the announcement you were referring to or will there be an announcement (soon) for a US release of Hellboy too?

Thanks in advance.

Sorry, but I'm not supposed to disclose street dates. This title is not far off in the domestic schedule though...

I see

Bridge on the River Kwai
Guns of Navarone
Lawrence of Arabia

are all having new releases on DVD, will we also see a BD version Paidgeek? Please :)

Some of these are in preliminary work, but I cannot give any dates...

Dear Paidgeek,

First, thank you so much for participating in AVS. Your correspondence with enthusiasts and consumers on this forum is very beneficial, and I can certainly say that it increases my confidence in Blu-ray as a viable next-gen format.

Here are my questions:

1- Do you know if and/or when the PS3 will be updated via firmware to include the ability to decode DTS-HD Master Lossless Audio ?

2- Also regarding the PS3: I've stated in a previous post that the PS3 is unable to recognize any filesystem format other than FAT32 when an external Hard Disk drive is attached. This greatly impedes the PS3's ability to play very large HD content due to FAT32's 4 GB file-size limit. Will this be remedied in the future via firmware? Because if the PS3 were to have TV and Movie downloads in its itinerary, then this problem needs to be fixed.

3- Do you know if future updates on the PS3 will include improved video support (more codecs/comprehensive support of H.264 profiles...etc.)?

4- Finally, can you please comment on the progress of the Spider-man movies on Blu-ray? Anything regarding the status of the transfer, audio/video codec...ANYTHING regarding the release will be much appreciated :) .

Thank you so much in advance. Keep up the good work :) !

paidgeek,

Does Sony sell their AVC encoder (or is it in-house only)?
Does it also correct each small analyze part as PEP?
Any improvement on speed (over 12x)?
Is it still in development stage or is it finished product?

thx

Some of these are in preliminary work, but I cannot give any dates...


how abt fixing freezing issue with 1.5 firmware and possibility of upscaling dvds

Sorry, but I'm not supposed to disclose street dates. This title is not far off in the domestic schedule though...

Thank you for the reply paidgeek. I appreciate that. BTW welcome back.

What is the feasibility of having a dual-deck universal player? One deck is BD and the other deck HD DVD/DVD/CD (or some combination thereabouts). Technically feasible? Sure. Economically feasible? Not in my opinion.

Most importanlty, does Microsoft understand that lack of quality on a transfer such as Lady in the Water is unacceptable and will result in lost sales for the studios?

-Pie

As has been pointed out to you by many here, this is the way the film is supposed to look... If you don't like it, that's your perogative..


For example, here's a quote from HiDef DVD Digest

LINK TO REVIEW (http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/ladyinthewater.html)

Warner Home Entertainment presents 'Lady in the Water' in 1.85:1 widescreen and 1080p/VC-1 video. Unfortunately, the transfer mirrors the theatrical presentation I saw, which often had a visual look akin to dirty bathwater. I do find it curious that M. Night Shyamalan continues to bathe his films in such blandness, but far be it for me to question an auteur.

As an aside, and as someone who mixes films for a living, reviews and comments about picture and sound quality must be taken for what they are.... opinions.

I am so tired of films I have mixed being judged on criteria such as how much LFE there is, or how active the surrounds are... I mean, do people think we all sit around with a director and think, after months of mixing a film "Well the film could sound better, better luck next time?" With very limited examples, the mix we craft is what the director intended, and is there to serve the storytelling, not to garner a 5 star review on some website by adding thump or surrounds because it is there....

My favorite example of this is the Vietnam sequence is "Forrest Gump..." I would imaging that everyone here has fond memories of the first time they heard that.. I know it left quite an impression on me... guess what? There are no surrounds in that sequence (or in that film if memory serves me correct.)

If Pie can't accept that LITW looks like what it is supposed to is his right... he hasn't come up with a reasonable argument that it is the bitrate that is the issure... why would WB do thatt with all of the other beautiful examples they have given to us with other films? These new formats have gotten us closer to the orignal neg and/or DI and printmasters than most of you can imagine.... Tiering HD DVD's or BR discs is foolish, unless the only thing you want from your picture is over processed, sharpened videos that all look the same... Each movie is a different story is crafted from scratch, and comparing them to each other is pointless....

I have a home theater to enjoy movies and the stories they tell, not to watch transfers that all look alike.. With few exceptions, these new formats have delivered the films as the film makers intended....

/endrant

paidgeek, how long do you believe it will take BD50 to be as prevalent in BD releases as DVD9s are in SD releases?

Also, due to it being on AMC all weekend and giving me the itch to buy it, are there any plans for The Quick & The Dead on BD? Last Action Hero would also fill my desire for hi-def cheese.

amirm, paidgeek

Can you specify current state of available decoders on players and game consoles?
It seams to that we have some small mess with audio codecs support and it's not easy to make decision what audio should I put onto disc.
Assume that we have disc with 5.1 DolbyTrueHD and PCM 2.0 (music DVD).

eg. Toshiba HD-E1 support 5.1 DolbyTrueHD, but if you don't have receiver with HDMI 1.1 or 1.2 (very common) than you can't listen 5.1 at all (because it has only stereo analog output and THD doesn't work over SPDIF). So for now many people won't be able to listen 5.1.
Other possibility is PCM 2.0+DTS-HD Master, which for now will give for people core DTS over SPDIF and (maybe) in feature lossless audio over HDMI. In this case DTS-HD Master audio is only optional codec. Not perfect again. The bandwidth is not big enough to put all of them.
The more codecs the bigger problem.

Thx

Any chance an insider could explain what this 3x DVD-ROM is all about and whether it will have any significance with regards to HD DVD/Blu-ray.

First 3X DVD-ROM Disc Cut with DCA Equipment

http://digital50.com/news/items/BW/2001/07/14/20070219005332/first-3x-dvd-rom-disc-cut-with-dca-equipment.html

Any chance an insider could explain what this 3x DVD-ROM is all about and whether it will have any significance with regards to HD DVD/Blu-ray.

First 3X DVD-ROM Disc Cut with DCA Equipment

http://digital50.com/news/items/BW/2001/07/14/20070219005332/first-3x-dvd-rom-disc-cut-with-dca-equipment.html
Looks like this is the red laser variant of HD DVD. HD DVD allows data rates up to 30 mbit/sec for red laser media (i.e. "3X" current red laser DVD maximum). This lets red laser have the same a/v performance as blue laser HD DVDs, at lower cost and storage capacity. This is quite useful for independent films, animations and short titltes which do not need the higher capacity of blue laser HD DVDs.

Blu-ray insiders or anyone that knows:

How much persistent storage is mandated for profile 1.0 players?

To any insider:

What is your expert opinion of the impact of recent disc copy protection breaches on the timetable for managed copy?


To BD insiders:

What is your opinion of that impact on BD+?

Amir, a follow-up:

We forwarded the same link to them and they say that is a mistake!

What about this link:

http://www.worldinhd.com/movabletype/archives/2007/02/studio_canal_la.html

It shows a Studio Canal title being advertised with a BD version. Was this a marketing mistake as well?

Amir, a follow-up:



What about this link:

http://www.worldinhd.com/movabletype/archives/2007/02/studio_canal_la.html

It shows a Studio Canal title being advertised with a BD version. Was this a marketing mistake as well?
That's what they tell us.

To any insider:

What is your expert opinion of the impact of recent disc copy protection breaches on the timetable for managed copy?
Unfortunatley, the breaches have significantly delayed the finalization of the AACS agreement. There is no strategic impact though as in any studio changing their mind as a result of these events which is good. So we are just dealing with a schedule delay.

amir...............


360 dts update.....anything.........included in march dashboard update is what im hearing through the grapevine......

Amir,

Do studios really believe they will ultimately be able to prevent copy protection breaches, or are they just looking to make it more difficult?

Amir,

I recently tried to calibrate my hd add on drive with the GetGray calibration DVD and when I got to the contrast test pattern I ran into a problem. No matter what I adjusted the contrast setting to on my projector I could not make the contrast pattern appear on screen. The creator of the GetGray disc thinks that this is from extreme clipping. You can read my post and his response here.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9788241&&#post9788241

Have you heard of this before?

Steve

Amir-

I hope you are feeling better! Whatever happened doesn't sound like fun.

Can you update us on the Studio Canal audio issue? I guess I don't need all the technical details if you can't explain it properly - I just want to know if we can expect the audio on the March discs to be correct. In addition, is there any reason to expect the Warner European discs to suffer from any audio issues?

Thanks again,
Chris

Any chance an insider could explain what this 3x DVD-ROM is all about and whether it will have any significance with regards to HD DVD/Blu-ray.

First 3X DVD-ROM Disc Cut with DCA Equipment

http://digital50.com/news/items/BW/2001/07/14/20070219005332/first-3x-dvd-rom-disc-cut-with-dca-equipment.html

Looks like this is the red laser variant of HD DVD. HD DVD allows data rates up to 30 mbit/sec for red laser media (i.e. "3X" current red laser DVD maximum). This lets red laser have the same a/v performance as blue laser HD DVDs, at lower cost and storage capacity. This is quite useful for independent films, animations and short titltes which do not need the higher capacity of blue laser HD DVDs.

Exactly so. These discs allow you to place 30-45 minutes of HD DVD on them. Replication costs would be those of DVD.

Amir et al,

This is somewhat OT and for that I apologise - but a quick one if I could ...

Using the XBox 360 as a MCE extender is superb for SD, which is what I've been doing up till recently. The problem is that the XBox only does 60Hz in its HDTV modes (720/1080), so us Aussies (and Brits) get stuttery video as a result of our 50Hz content being converted to 60Hz. It really kills the high-def feel.

The kicker is that when you initially choose your HDTV resolution, it actually goes to 60Hz and asks you to confirm if you can see an image, then goes to 50Hz and asks if you can see that too, then reverts to 60Hz with no option to specify 50Hz. So, that means the hardware can do 50Hz in these modes.

I emailed Microsoft but the response was a link to a generic page "how to connect XBox to an HDTV". So, my question is - is this something Microsoft are aware of an will the next dashboard update help here?

And just to be clear ... I'm not talking about HD DVD here - just the general ability of the XBox to do 1080/50.

Many thanks and again sorry for being off-topic.

Amir-

I hope you are feeling better! Whatever happened doesn't sound like fun.
Thanks!

Can you update us on the Studio Canal audio issue? I guess I don't need all the technical details if you can't explain it properly - I just want to know if we can expect the audio on the March discs to be correct. In addition, is there any reason to expect the Warner European discs to suffer from any audio issues?

Thanks again,
Chris
We have really pushed them hard to get this right for the follow on releases and they say they are.

The problem was that no one was used to produce 24p content out there. Lot of the sound tracks they had, even those in English, where in 25p. Don't ask me why they could not request the original track from states. I didn't get a satisfactory answer that I could understand.

But no, Warner titles should have no problems at all because they work for the same company and the encodes are done here, using proper 24p tracks.

Amir et al,

This is somewhat OT and for that I apologise - but a quick one if I could ...

Using the XBox 360 as a MCE extender is superb for SD, which is what I've been doing up till recently. The problem is that the XBox only does 60Hz in its HDTV modes (720/1080), so us Aussies (and Brits) get stuttery video as a result of our 50Hz content being converted to 60Hz. It really kills the high-def feel.

The kicker is that when you initially choose your HDTV resolution, it actually goes to 60Hz and asks you to confirm if you can see an image, then goes to 50Hz and asks if you can see that too, then reverts to 60Hz with no option to specify 50Hz. So, that means the hardware can do 50Hz in these modes.

I emailed Microsoft but the response was a link to a generic page "how to connect XBox to an HDTV". So, my question is - is this something Microsoft are aware of an will the next dashboard update help here?

And just to be clear ... I'm not talking about HD DVD here - just the general ability of the XBox to do 1080/50.

Many thanks and again sorry for being off-topic.
That's an interesting problem. May I ask what source you are using for 50p? Is this broadcast material that you recorded?

But yes, I will pass on the info once I get the above answer and will report back on what I found out.

Amir,

I recently tried to calibrate my hd add on drive with the GetGray calibration DVD and when I got to the contrast test pattern I ran into a problem. No matter what I adjusted the contrast setting to on my projector I could not make the contrast pattern appear on screen. The creator of the GetGray disc thinks that this is from extreme clipping. You can read my post and his response here.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9788241&&#post9788241

Have you heard of this before?

Steve
I am not familiar with that test disc. Let me ask around to see what I can find out.

That's an interesting problem. May I ask what source you are using for 50p? Is this broadcast material that you recorded?

But yes, I will pass on the info once I get the above answer and will report back on what I found out.

Correct - broadcast material, whether watching live or recorded. Digital TV (and HDTV) in Australia is 50Hz. So, any TV viewing at all is stuttery as a result.

Thanks for your time and care Amir - I still shake my head that I can ask this kind of question to someone so high up in the chain directly. Amazing :)

Amir, while we're on the subject of resolutions and refresh rates, any chance an update will give us VGA at 1080i (at 50 and 60 per fixing Paul's PAL land issue) in addition to 1080p, *with timings that work* in addition to fixing timing for 1080p? 1080i from VGA is good for keeping DVD upconversion and being able to drive older CRT projectors (and other VGA equipped devices), and the issue with timings seems to be that currently 1080p is using reduced blanking which works for non-CRT devices since they don't have to scan an electron beam back to the other end of the tube, but this is no go for CRT'ers. If you can't fix 1080p because you've already maxed out the bandwidth / timing of the analog output path ('Ana' the scaler or whatever), then that's fine. Just give us 1080i with normal timings so we can still have 1080 something. Please? Pretty please? Since 1080i already works for component with sane timings, this should be just as easy a 'fix' as enabling 50/60hz selection. Maybe pass along to the Xbox team that we need an ADVANCED VIDEO option section for 50/60hz region default override, setting override interlace for 1080 mode, and maybe just for fun some selection of Video or PC output levels (another bane of VGA adapter living..)

But seriously, 50/60hz selection for our PAL friends, and 1080i with normal timings for those of us with "inferior" VGA compatible systems, the rest is gravy.

Not a question, not sure if it was stated before but... thank you Sony Pictures for providing more than just English/French/Spanish subtitles for so many many years and glad to see it continues with BD. I have 2 other people in this household where English is not their first language and they find it hard to understand some of the more complex English dialogue. I buy many more of your disc becasue of this reason.

Since nobody knows the answer elsewhere, maybe an insider can help.

I would like to know what chroma subsampling the HD-A2 uses when outputting 720p (component) via HDMI.

1- Do you know if and/or when the PS3 will be updated via firmware to include the ability to decode DTS-HD Master Lossless Audio ?

2- Also regarding the PS3: I've stated in a previous post that the PS3 is unable to recognize any filesystem format other than FAT32 when an external Hard Disk drive is attached. This greatly impedes the PS3's ability to play very large HD content due to FAT32's 4 GB file-size limit. Will this be remedied in the future via firmware? Because if the PS3 were to have TV and Movie downloads in its itinerary, then this problem needs to be fixed.

3- Do you know if future updates on the PS3 will include improved video support (more codecs/comprehensive support of H.264 profiles...etc.)?

4- Finally, can you please comment on the progress of the Spider-man movies on Blu-ray? Anything regarding the status of the transfer, audio/video codec...ANYTHING regarding the release will be much appreciated :) .



Hassoon,

I have not heard any news about an update for DTS-MA decoding in the PS3. You are probably already aware that Dolby THD is supported.

From other requests, I have passed on an inquiry about supporting a file format that can support larger file sizes.

I don't know if other codecs will be supported in the future. I think it is fair to say that there should be a decent business reason for developing this sort of feature.

The studio certainly knows there are people anxious to see the Spiderman titles on Blu-ray. I would think that something may happen with timing coordinated to the release of SM3, but these things are always subject to change.

paidgeek,

Does Sony sell their AVC encoder (or is it in-house only)?
Does it also correct each small analyze part as PEP?
Any improvement on speed (over 12x)?
Is it still in development stage or is it finished product?

thx

The Sony AVC encoder is a product and is available for sale. I believe it is being evaluated or purchased by some non-Sony companies.

I'm not sure what you mean about the Parallel encoding analysis. The encoded data is expanded or contracted based on the entire project on with a best approximation of the target file size, not the portions allocated to each processor.

Yes, I am told that with the current 10 PC configuration we are getting something like 7x realtime.

paidgeek

What is the fastest way to get eveluation of Blu-Print (we're based in Europe).
Can I get Sony AVC encoder evaluation?

Thx

how abt fixing freezing issue with 1.5 firmware and possibility of upscaling dvds

I have heard some other complaints about freezing with version 1.5 firmware, but have not been able to reproduce it. Please PM me with any help you can provide on this.

The scaling request is understood and as I understand it, is being studied carefully.

paidgeek, how long do you believe it will take BD50 to be as prevalent in BD releases as DVD9s are in SD releases?

Also, due to it being on AMC all weekend and giving me the itch to buy it, are there any plans for The Quick & The Dead on BD? Last Action Hero would also fill my desire for hi-def cheese.

I'm not sure exactly how long it will take for BD50 to become the norm, but just as with DVD, it is just too useful not to take advantage. Accorfdingly I think there is pressure on the replicators to focus attention on it.

I'm not sure about these titles being released this year as I do not recall any work on them. These things are always subject to change though...

paidgeek

What is the fastest way to get eveluation of Blu-Print (we're based in Europe).
Can I get Sony AVC encoder evaluation?

Thx

Please see my PM...

amirm, paidgeek

Can you specify current state of available decoders on players and game consoles?
It seams to that we have some small mess with audio codecs support and it's not easy to make decision what audio should I put onto disc.
Assume that we have disc with 5.1 DolbyTrueHD and PCM 2.0 (music DVD).

eg. Toshiba HD-E1 support 5.1 DolbyTrueHD, but if you don't have receiver with HDMI 1.1 or 1.2 (very common) than you can't listen 5.1 at all (because it has only stereo analog output and THD doesn't work over SPDIF). So for now many people won't be able to listen 5.1.
Other possibility is PCM 2.0+DTS-HD Master, which for now will give for people core DTS over SPDIF and (maybe) in feature lossless audio over HDMI. In this case DTS-HD Master audio is only optional codec. Not perfect again. The bandwidth is not big enough to put all of them.
The more codecs the bigger problem.

Thx

It is never a problem to use LPCM as every BD player can output this as analog or HDMI. Even version 1.1 or 1.2 HDMI equipped players cannot support lossless codecs regardless of disc format. In time, I think one of the lossless codecs will come into common use, but in the meantime, LPCM is a safe, and a very good sounding option.

Even version 1.1 or 1.2 HDMI equipped players cannot support lossless codecs regardless of disc format.
Can you elaborate on this ?

--Patrice

amirm

Is it true that Toshiba HD E1 doesn't support 25p and 50i?

Not really. It works for Samsung player which has 5.1 analog output and PS3 (if I'm not wrong), but doesn't for Panasonic player as it has only stereo analog output. Also 5.1 24bit uncompressed takes lot of space on the disc.Samsung has 5.1ch analog output as well as stereo output. PS3 has stereo output via its AV multi-out cable and there is no multichannel analog output. Panasonic has 7.1ch analog output as well as 2 sets of stereo analog output. Up until now, only BD player which does not have multichannel analog output is PS3, all others have at least 5.1ch analog output.

Samsung has 5.1ch analog output as well as stereo output. PS3 has stereo output via its AV multi-out cable and there is no multichannel analog output. Panasonic has 7.1ch analog output as well as 2 sets of stereo analog output. Up until now, only BD player which does not have multichannel analog output is PS3, all others have at least 5.1ch analog output.

Thanks.

It's not easy to find detailed specification (even on producer site).
In this case only problem is space on the disk.

With all the talk of 3x DVD-ROM lately what's the status of Blu-ray's equivalence, BD9? Could a DVD replicator easily convert a DVD line and start producing BD9 discs today?

Rio

Can you tell me if Blu-Ray players support 25p or 50i?

Thanks

Rio

Can you tell me if Blu-Ray players support 25p or 50i?

Thanks
I'm not an insider, but none can in both sides...

You should search this thread, this as allready been discussed extensively.

--Patrice

paidgeek,

Can you tell us if the version of "Casino Royale" that will be given away to the first 500,000 PS3 owners in Europe who register will be a BD25 or a BD50?

Thanks,
Darin

I still am concerned about the studios pushing VC-1 past it's limits, so to speak. I am also concerned that Microsoft is training the studios to use VC-1 -- or marketing VC-1 -- as a low-bitrate (~10mbps) codec, and I fear this will lead to lower quality encodes in the future.
We encourage studios to get transparent compression of their movies, and to use as many bits as needed. There's plenty of bits to do this, as has been shown in practice by 100+ titles.

I think part of this confusion is because we're codec guys, and a core measurement of how good a codec is is "compression efficiency." As that improves, you can either provide better quality at the same rate (up to the limit of how good the source is) or provide the same quality at a lower bitrate, or the mix of the two.

So, when we say that we can now do in 10 Mbps what took us 12 Mbps before, that's what we're talking about - an improvement in the quality of the codec implementation. It has nothing to do with trying to starve the bit of discs, or because we want rates that low. It does mean content creators have more flexibility in how they want to use the bits, which is the whole point.

Think of it like improving the gas mileage of a car, if you want. It's an unadultrated good thing for all concerned. And remember, the tech that makes a Prius get 40+ mpg can also get a sports car to do 25+ mpg with no loss in performance...

amirm

Is it true that Toshiba HD E1 doesn't support 25p and 50i?
As was just noted, this is true and was answered before :). But Toshiba will be providing an update to enable 25p/50i. From what I recall, their target date is June '07.

Note that the player does play PAL DVDs. The above is only in relation to HD DVD playback.

Amir,

Do studios really believe they will ultimately be able to prevent copy protection breaches, or are they just looking to make it more difficult?
I can not speak of all studios. But the ones we work with in AACS, certainly understand that implementations can be breached and hence the reason we have all of these provisions to deal with them. Otherwise, AACS we would not have bothered with all of that. Since AACS spec is approved by all the member studios, you can imagine that they do believe in what I say here.

Now, different studios are more or less comfortable with the reality of the situation. Some get nervous when a breach happens, others think its resolution only makes the system stronger in the future.

So yes, they like the breaches to be infrequent enough, and difficult enough for the masses to use, as to have a nice business. It is the job of the technology companies to hit this metric. If we don't, they can vote with their feet and not publish titles in said format...

We encourage studios to get transparent compression of their movies, and to use as many bits as needed. There's plenty of bits to do this, as has been shown in practice by 100+ titles.

I think part of this confusion is because we're codec guys, and a core measurement of how good a codec is is "compression efficiency." ...
Thanks for the reply Ben.

In terms of transparency, I believe that severely low bitrate was a problem for Lady in the Water. Amir has said he'd give it a look, and I'd like to request that the other insiders to take a look as well -- time permitting.

I would also invite FilmMixer in particular.

In the following thread, I have specific timecodes displaying digital noise (not just film grain). Hopefully Amir can look at these times when he gets a chance.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9820656&&#post9820656

As I've said, I am fearful that overcompression was problematic on this particular release, and I'd hate to see this issue continue. As "codec guys" I'm hoping that if you do see problems with this disk, you are in a position to help studios correct them in the future.

-Pie

Thanks for the reply Ben.

In terms of transparency, I believe that severely low bitrate was a problem for Lady in the Water. Amir has said he'd give it a look, and I'd like to request that the other insiders to take a look as well -- time permitting.

I would also invite FilmMixer in particular.

-Pie

I have already seen it once, and I didn't notice anything out of the ordinary (mind you, I thought the movie was awful so I think I lost my way a couple of times), but I will look again (saw it on my old A1/umr cal'd Ruby.)

BTW... .I mixed Nacho Libre :)