Why you have to listen to subwoofers ...

[craigsub]

We just got the SVS PB12-NSD in, so I put it in the our basement theater, calibrated it and the PB12-Ultra (separately), and fired up Steely Dan's Two Against Nature DVD/A.

The PB12-NSD sounded very good .. good bass, very deep. Everything was as it should be.

Then I switched to the Ultra (in its 20 Hz tuning)... and there was an IMMEDIATE improvement. The bass was more visceral, tighter, and it seemed a bit louder, even though both were level matched.

I had the TrueRTA running, and both were delivering similar response curves ... and neither was near its max output - we were seeing 95 dB peaks in room.

IT was a fun listening session, for sure.

[ransac]

Now see if there is an even more pronounced difference when the port/s kick in.

[craigsub]

Now see if there is an even more pronounced difference when the port/s kick in.

That is in the plans, for sure. It will be at least another week before the Hsu pair arrives, so I am taking the time to compare the Ultra, NSD, and the Fathom 112.

Subs like the NSD are good enough, especially in a more typical room like the basement theater, to give credence to the guys who have these $600 level subs and wonder: "What could I POSSIBLY be missing?"

[Static Wick]

Craig,
I experienced similar results when comparing the Ultra/2 to the Plus/2. The Ultra/2 proved superior during the listening test.

[ransac]

"What could I POSSIBLY be missing?"
This is why I went to RMK!s to hear the DD18 and F113. It did answer the question as far as music was concerned and made me start to question what my next upgrade might be. Last night, I watched LOTR-ROTK on my +/2 and it made me realize that, for HT, I am not lacking for anything. Of course, an upgrade is inevitable. Since I am 99.9% HT, I do know now that I don't have to look only at sealed subs. As you said, this is why we need to listen for ourselves.

[craigsub]

Craig,
I experienced similar results when comparing the Ultra/2 to the Plus/2. The Ultra/2 proved superior during the listening test.

I had gone from selling the Plus to getting the Ultra several months later ... this was my first instant A/B between different SVS.

It will be fun to have these $430 to $650 subs compared to the Ultra and Fathom.

[bfdtv]

It will be fun to have these $430 to $650 subs compared to the Ultra and Fathom.I can't wait.

We've seen that output measurements and response curves using pink noise and test tones only show you part of the picture when it comes to articulate bass / sound quality. Does pink noise really represent a stressful test for >$500 subs? It's certainly useful for showing what output the sub can produce at different frequencies, and whether it can produce a relatively linear response with test tones, but does it tell us anything beyond that? Do you think another test might exist that could objectively quantify these quality differences? Perhaps a test in a different time domain, or a test with different notes, low, mid, and high in fast sequence?

When comparing subwoofers, you sometimes hear significant differences in a scene with a machine gun or helicopter rotor, so I am curious whether there might be some way to quantify that difference in an objective measurement. Perhaps one could use a music or film scene selection where you see a lot of difference between the sound quality of different subwoofers and take a response curve on that? And then use the response curve from the subwoofer subjectively determined to be the best in SQ as the baseline by which to judge others?

[JBLsound4645]

Hear and feeling these effects is irrelevant it all depends on modern day mixing techniques.

[b curry]

Originally Posted by bfdtv

When comparing subwoofers, you sometimes hear significant differences in a scene with a machine gun or helicopter rotor, so I am just wondering if there would be some way to quantify that difference in an objective measurement. Perhaps one could use a music or film scene selection where you see a lot of difference between the sound quality of different subwoofers and take a response curve on that? And then use the response curve from the subwoofer subjectively determined to be the best in SQ as the baseline to compare others?
I think you make an excellent and often over looked point here. There is simply no questioning the value of good objective measurement. However, at least for me, objective measurement has been at best a guide and takes second place to listening.

Expanding on your example, I don't know the "sound signature" of various and different helicopters manufactured in the world. But I do know what various music instruments in a live performance sound like. So, if a speaker can reproduce reasonably accurate sounds of my music instrument reference, it will probably reproduce other types of sounds accurately too. In other words, the note middle C has a specific resonant frequency and can be measured and graphed quite easily. However, that same note will sound different when played on a piano vs. a saxophone at the same measured frequency.

I realise there maybe some "blue sky logic" here. But this logic caused me to buy the JL f113 the moment I heard it; before I saw any preformance numbers. For me the f113 sounded more "real". And I know full well that there are other subs out there with equal or better numbers.

[TheEAR]

Craig,

Great point,and too often overlooked,even in some audio mags who overlook the most important factor in audio SOUND QUALITY when it comes to subs.

Pure SPL is worthless if the quality is low.In this case the ISD sub has good quality but as you pointed the Ultra will simply sound clearly better. So the value of increases,as comparing an ISD woofer to a TV12 in output makes one wonder why the Ultra sub costs way more.


And here is where the Fathom subs kick in,quality above all,and output to more than match the price.

[JEFFREY GTS]

Craig,
I can't wait to hear more from you on your comparisons. I currently own the PB12-NSD and have 45 days to make a decision with it. I love it, the best sub I have ever owned but I do wonder to myself, am I missing something, can I get more?

[Spearmint]

IMO we can get a bit carried away with the objective data and miss the subjective side of things. When I read reviews not only do I analyse the data but also scrutinise the subjective side of the review. Where tracks from CD’s are listed if I don’t have this particular album, I sometimes buy it then compare my system to see in my mind if I can reproduce any of the magic that the reviewer is talking about.

Since getting more involved in the 2ch side of things, I now find reproducing the bottom end of the music spectrum very high on my agenda, as others have said not many of us know in real life what a lot of these bass blockbuster sounds should and do sound like, if it moves us and shakes us we are usually happy. However music is a completely different animal and live acoustic and electric reproduction is readily easy to listen to for a perspective of what these instruments should sound like when reproduced on our systems. (Taking the compressed dynamics of CD’s out of the equation here)

[Ddavidson]

not many of us know in real life what a lot of these bass blockbuster sounds should and do sound like, if it moves us and shakes us we are usually happy. However music is a completely different animal and live acoustic and electric reproduction is readily easy to listen to for a perspective of what these instruments should sound like when reproduced on our systems. (Taking the compressed dynamics of CD’s out of the equation here)

If you are buying "solely based" on who can create the loudest, deepest and most impact (on special effects) then "sure" objective data is all one needs for such a purchase. However some of us don't just want reference level special effects and we like to know that the subwoofer can reproduce those more subtle changes within the disk.

After many years of directly comparing, measuring and listening I find that music is the great divider in separating a good subwoofer from the pack. So many times I have seen subwoofers that measure very close to each other, yet after conducting direct listening tests I alway seem to find one "standout", at first mainly because it just sounds tighter and more neutral. But what really grabs my attention (using music as a reference) is that this preference exists because it is capable of reproducing those subtle tonality changes that exist within the soundtrack.

If you don't directly compare you have no point of reference and so what you are gaining ar missing out on is not at all evident. Then you have the guys who buy "solely" based on spec, hype and opinion (then justify their purchase by starting a praise thread up on an A/V forum). Most of these simply fall into the open the "new toy" WOW factor and have never seen "let alone heard" the competition. So like the blind leading the blind they will never know what the are missing out on. Its a lot like a relationship she may have the perfect figure and the perfect look (its great during the dating part) but marry it without knowing the full story and it "could cost you". :D :D

Ddavidson

[craigsub]

The best part of this small thread is that (more) people (than ever) really ARE starting to understand the importance of listening.

This reminds me a lot of what happened in the late 70's, when "specmanship" hit its Zenith in receivers. Everyone was pushing for .00001 % THD ... Pioneer, Technics, Hitachi, Sansui ... etc ...

Then this little $200 Integrated from NAD rated @ 20 WPC started dusting all the Big Dog receivers when playing real music ... Maybe a few guys here will remember how good that little 3020 was...

Tomorrow night, I get to listen to live jazz at our country club. All our Jazz CD's will get a heckuva workout this weekend.

[Spearmint]

Tomorrow night, I get to listen to live jazz at our country club. All our Jazz CD's will get a heckuva workout this weekend.

Nice Craig, nothing like some live music to bring things back into perspective. Please give us some feedback of the night especially the bass reproduction.

[Spearmint]

After many years of directly comparing, measuring and listening I find that music is the great divider in separating a good subwoofer from the pack.

Ddavidson

I agree.

IMO get the bottom end right and the rest will fall into place much easier.

[thehun]

Craig,

Great point,and too often overlooked,even in some audio mags who overlook the most important factor in audio SOUND QUALITY when it comes to subs.



The funny thing is that I can't think of a single magazine that do justice of providing a comprehensive measurement report on any sub they review. There are few that give some measurements but nothing in the league we see on the web by some enthusiasts, or a couple of online reviewers.
What we do get from printed media is nothing but subjective listening opinion, from people you've never met, don't readily know his bias, never been in his listening room, or familiar with many of his music choice. So would that be beneficial for anyone? Hell no!
The topic of this thread is "listen to subs yourself " which I agree completely with,
but if I had to choose between subjective review and objective measurements as to which is more valuable to me a prospective buyer? I would choose the later.

[b curry]

Originally Posted by craigsub

Then this little $200 Integrated from NAD rated @ 20 WPC started dusting all the Big Dog receivers when playing real music ... Maybe a few guys here will remember how good that little 3020 was...
Yes it did, as well as the Naim Nait @ 12-15 WPC during this same time. The first watt is the most important argument; another topic...

[ribbit]

please post pictures craig. thanks in advance :)

[kgveteran]

We just got the SVS PB12-NSD in, so I put it in the our basement theater, calibrated it and the PB12-Ultra (separately), and fired up Steely Dan's Two Against Nature DVD/A.

The PB12-NSD sounded very good .. good bass, very deep. Everything was as it should be.

Then I switched to the Ultra (in its 20 Hz tuning)... and there was an IMMEDIATE improvement. The bass was more visceral, tighter, and it seemed a bit louder, even though both were level matched.

I had the TrueRTA running, and both were delivering similar response curves ... and neither was near its max output - we were seeing 95 dB peaks in room.

IT was a fun listening session, for sure.

I'm curious what the waterfall chart shows where the music is hitting.Just wondering where the cutoff was on music.Seems like most ,like the Steely Dan DVD would be above 40hz.
I'm not sure if the lower tune even is an issue with most music.Interesting though.

Subjective and objective.....neither flys on it's own!

KG

[pbc]

A bit of an extreme example, but going from a high quality sub to a much lower quality sub makes this obvious. For instance, I recently sold my Mirage OM-200 which was a pretty decent sub in it's own right (albeit only having dual 8" drivers), but sounded amazing. I recently borrowed my brother's old Mirage PS-12(or whatever it was), which has a 12" driver powered by a small 90 or 180 watt amp in a decent sized enclosure. Could the 12" sub pound a few beats out? Yes, but talk about a one note wonder. Everything sounded "muddy" and I believe I can finally say I know what too much "THD" sounds like! I'm very familiar with the tank scene in Saving Private Ryan which with the OM200 you could feel the shaking and it really made you feel like you were there with the rocks crumbling underneath the tank, with the PS12 all it did was belt out sound. Compared to the OM-200 which was refined/tight/detailed, this sucker is just boomy. Music was even worse, I played some DTS tracks and there was so much of what I could only describe as overhang with deep drum notes it wasn't funny. The OM200 played these notes wonderfully, with quick response times and bass that stopped when it should.

Having said that, I agree with the hun when he says:

but if I had to choose between subjective review and objective measurments as to which is more valuable to me a prospective buyer? I would choose the latter.

Will two subs with similar measurements sound the same? No, but then, just because one person likes the sound of sub A versus sub B, doesn't mean the next person won't like the sound of sub B.

However, detailed "objective" measurements that can be repeated provide the only relatively unbiased info on the web (again, assuming one can rely on the reviewer's methodology).

At the end of the day, unfortunately, most of us don't have the luxury of getting all the subs we want to listen to in our rooms (without potentially incurring multiple shipping costs to return them). Case in point, I'd love to listen to the HO in my room, but at a $300 shipping/brokerage/duty cost to and from it's not that easy should I decide I prefer the sound of another sub (say an SVS or Paradigm or whatever) better! So we have no choice but to rely upon the few well written reviews out there and hope they are as objective as possible.


Actually, the more I think about it, my best option might be to make the 5 hour drive from Toronto to The Ear's house and just listen to the 30 he has there!

Hey Ear, you charging admission? :D

[rockemsockem]

I think this is why many of us are constantly upgrading subs, trying to get that perfect sound. If you're on a limited budget, the only way to listen to other subs in your home is to sell your old one and get a new one.

Personally, I think I'm good for the time being with my 22-31 Pci. For my room, it does just fine at the levels I listen at. But it is going to be much harder in my next home where I will have a dedicated room and such.

[TheEAR]

pbc,

No admission,just a PAY per LISTEN charge. :p

Seriously having subs from so many brands and price/quality levels is a major ace in the deck,a crazy luxury few have.



I read a few many posts where some will point to absurd gains from one sub to another,HT use is one place where accuracy falls to SPL and shake factor.As movie sound effects are there to wow the audience,accuracy...what accuracy? Fake explosions and celery braking(bone crunches) are no way to test a quality sub. Fake depth charges,the way the director wanted you to hear? Right,fake optimised and imagined ones.

Music,recorded from real acoustic instruments,not electronic is the only credible way to test audio gear. Testing with test tones and posting graphs is needed but above all it is in live recorded music.When you nail it right with real instruments and have a wide range(audible range) covered you are there.

[Ddavidson]

As movie sound effects are there to wow the audience,accuracy...what accuracy? Fake explosions and celery braking(bone crunches) are no way to test a quality sub. Fake depth charges,the way the director wanted you to hear? Right,fake optimised and imagined ones.

Music,recorded from real acoustic instruments,not electronic is the only credible way to test audio gear. Testing with test tones and posting graphs is needed but above all it is in live recorded music.When you nail it right with real instruments and have a wide range(audible range) covered you are there.
Absolutely.
Music listening is the only way to listen for the vast differences between many of these subwoofers. If you just want Spl bragging rights then there is no point listening for such differences. All this my house is falling down since I brought my new subwoofer, is of no important to those of us seeking to get the best out of our systems sound reproduction.

Ddavidson

[MarauderFH]

Forums full of level headed people almost always tend to outperform with advice magazines and official "review" sites where people make a living on it.
When you know your passion and hobby you're often going to get more excited and involved than someone who thinks of it as "Work." Not to mention discussion and exchange of ideas.

[craigsub]

I'm curious what the waterfall chart shows where the music is hitting.Just wondering where the cutoff was on music.Seems like most ,like the Steely Dan DVD would be above 40hz.
I'm not sure if the lower tune even is an issue with most music.Interesting though.

Subjective and objective.....neither flys on it's own!

KG

KG - The Two Against Nature Disc has bass down to the low 20's, and will often have bass in the low 20's and in the upper ranges at the same time. It is a great subwoofer test disc for both power and articulation. When the Hsu pair gets here, I will capture some TrueRTA graphs of each test sub on this disc.

I have taken about 200 RTA graphs on all these different listening tests - cataloging them and posting them is just too much space, but I will try to get a nice, representative sample.

[craigsub]

As an update ... The PB12-NSD is definitely a cut above the PB10. The 12 plays with a more effortless ability, and is also more artiuculate. It hits deeper, and with a more visceral sense of power.

The $160 difference between these 2 subs is pretty well worth it, IMO.

I would LOVE to have some feedback from Ed on this, if he has had the chance to A-B these 2 subs.

[RMK!]

This is why I went to RMK!s to hear the DD18 and F113. It did answer the question as far as music was concerned and made me start to question what my next upgrade might be. Last night, I watched LOTR-ROTK on my +/2 and it made me realize that, for HT, I am not lacking for anything. Of course, an upgrade is inevitable. Since I am 99.9% HT, I do know now that I don't have to look only at sealed subs. As you said, this is why we need to listen for ourselves.

Do you remember when I forgot to turn on the sub for one of the demo chapters? It took a little bit before I recognized something was not right. That is because my speakers are capable of output into the 30Hz range. Forgive me for stating the obvious, but the performance of all of the speakers together is often overlooked here in subwoofer world. As much as I have come to enjoy the performance of a really good subwoofer in HT, I find it hard to separate HT and music due to the musical score being such a large part of films these days. IMHO, the most important thing is how the sub integrates with the rest of the system components. When upgrading, the performance of the entire audio system should be considered.

[thehun]

pbc,

No admission,just a PAY per LISTEN charge. :p

Seriously having subs from so many brands and price/quality levels is a major ace in the deck,a crazy luxury few have.



I read a few many posts where some will point to absurd gains from one sub to another,HT use is one place where accuracy falls to SPL and shake factor.As movie sound effects are there to wow the audience,accuracy...what accuracy? Fake explosions and celery braking(bone crunches) are no way to test a quality sub. Fake depth charges,the way the director wanted you to hear? Right,fake optimised and imagined ones.

Music,recorded from real acoustic instruments,not electronic is the only credible way to test audio gear. Testing with test tones and posting graphs is needed but above all it is in live recorded music.When you nail it right with real instruments and have a wide range(audible range) covered you are there.

Yeah if it would be that simple. Listen to drums recorded on a variety recordings. You'll find that besides the sound of different brands and type of music say rock vs Jazz you also will encounter signature sound of certain producers or sound engineers. And then you have live vs recorded, all can sound very differently.
My point, to stick to music only in the name of accuracy is no more "objective" then comparing movie soundtracks.It is inherently different though I'll give you that.

[thehun]

As an update ... The PB12-NSD is definitely a cut above the PB10. The 12 plays with a more effortless ability, and is also more artiuculate. It hits deeper, and with a more visceral sense of power.

The $160 difference between these 2 subs is pretty well worth it, IMO.

I would LOVE to have some feedback from Ed on this, if he has had the chance to A-B these 2 subs.


Do you still own the PB10?
Where is Ed anyway?

[MauneyM]

The problem with the objective measurements generally shown by reviewers is this:

An RTA plot shows response level by frequency, but it only does it in steady-state condition, and only at one volume level. This leaves out two parameters that are VERY important to music reproduction:

1) Transient response. You may be able to generate a great 22Hz thump during a car crash scene, but if the 'tone' at that frequency always rings for 2-3 extra cycles, rather than stopping when the signal stops, your music will sound 'loose', or 'flabby'. The same is true for attack - does the FIRST half-cycle of that 'note' come in at the level requested by the source, or does it have to build mechanical momentum?

2) Linearity. The response plot may be dead-flat at 95dB, but what does it look like at 105dB? 85dB? 115dB? If the response changes significantly over the usable volume range, music will never sound natural - it will sound 'recorded'.

Bottom line: you can build a crossover network that will EQ almost anything to show a relatively flat pink-noise RTA plot at a given level. Howver, this may be compensating for ringing, distortion, resonances, etc., that will show up when you hear real source material.

Use your ears. For almost anyone who cares about music, they will be a better reference than a simple response curve.

[FWIW, I have several reference CDs I use for critical listening. I have chosen each to demonstrate certain specific characteristics. For low-end material, I really like to use Level 42 - World Machine. A good system will play each bass note clearly and distinctly atthe same volume; most systems will just put out a rumble, or cut off half of the notes.]

[craigsub]

Do you still own the PB10?
Where is Ed anyway?

Yes - We have four SVS here, the PB10, PB12-NSD, PB12-Plus/2, and PB12-Ultra. Ed is probably busy with the career change, and hopefully also took advantage of the holiday season for some down time, too.

There have been a few posts from guys mentioning Ed has advised them on subwoofers, so he is definitely working.

[Spearmint]

This is a great article by Bob Katz (http://www.digido.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=16) IMO.

Here is a couple of quotes from the article.

I recorded Rebecca's disc in 1994. Track 12 is Spanish Harlem, which has a slow, deliberate acoustic bass part that makes it easy to identify notes that "stick out" too far and covers the major portion of the bass spectrum. This record has never failed to reveal the anomalies of different rooms and loudspeakers in several years of use as a musical reference. The ear is better with instant comparisons than absolute judgments, and this test relies on our ear's ability to make comparisons. All musical instruments and transducers produce harmonics as well as fundamentals. To the best of our ability to discriminate, we will be concentrating on the fundamental tones in this piece of music. If your loudspeakers have significant harmonic distortion, they can complicate or confuse the test.




But if the satellite bass is even, you can move on to the next step, adjusting the subwoofers.
Spanish Harlem, in the key of G, uses the classic 1, 4, 5 progression. Here are the frequencies of the fundamental notes of the bass. If your loudspeaker has sufficiently low harmonic distortion, it will not affect your judgment of the power of the bass notes, which are already affected by the natural harmonics of the instrument.

49 62 73 65 82 98 73 93 110
As you can see, this covers most of the critical bass range. If the lowest note(s) is weaker than the rest, then you are a candidate for a subwoofer. My satellites behave in the classic manner, with the lowest note (G, 49Hz) slightly low in level, but the rest fall in a balanced line. I've been in small rooms where one or more of the intermediate notes are emphasized or weak, which suggests standing wave problems. Repositioning the satellites may help. Avoid equalization, which is a nasty band aid...proper acoustic room treatment is the cure. You could conceivably add a subwoofer out of phase at the frequencies in question, but that's a technique that should remain confidential between you and your analyst. Fix the acoustic problems first and you'll be happier.

[Spearmint]

Craig, check that disc I sent you. :)

Another track I used when playing with acoustic panels & bass traps was “Ode to Billy Joe – Patricia Barber” it has a repetitive bass line and finger snaps through out. It made it easier for listening for audible changes.

[craigsub]

Craig, check that disc I sent you. :)

Another track I used when playing with acoustic panels & bass traps was “Ode to Billy Joe – Patricia Barber” it has a repetitive bass line and finger snaps through out. It made it easier for listening for audible changes.

Richard ... That disc will start getting a REAL workout starting this week. It and several other music discs are on the docket for some serious listening. Thanks again for sending it ... :)

[ericgl]

Look, I respect (and envy) those of you who have, or have the oppotunity to audition different subs in your your room(s). But how should a hobbiest with more limited resources choose, especially when most of the best bang for buck subs are ID?

[thehun]

Yes - We have four SVS here, the PB10, PB12-NSD, PB12-Plus/2, and PB12-Ultra. Ed is probably busy with the career change, and hopefully also took advantage of the holiday season for some down time, too.

There have been a few posts from guys mentioning Ed has advised them on subwoofers, so he is definitely working.
I thought you sold the +/2 ? I guess not.
I wasn't aware that Ed changed career, well to be precise I didn't know his full time job either, only that he did reviews for Secrets. I miss his reviews.What's he doing now?

[craigsub]

I thought you sold the +/2 ? I guess not.
I wasn't aware that Ed changed career, well to be precise I didn't know his full time job either, only that he did reviews for Secrets. I miss his reviews.What's he doing now?

I sold the ones purchased in 2003, but bought a new Cherry finished +/2 about 2 months ago.

Ed is now working for SVS in customer service (and probably some product development, too).

[thehun]

Well, I whished he stayed independent, but then again he was already accused being a pawn for SVS long before. I whish all the best for him though.
Congrats on the Cherry +/2.

[Kevin12586]

Look, I respect (and envy) those of you who have, or have the oppotunity to audition different subs in your your room(s). But how should a hobbiest with more limited resources choose, especially when most of the best bang for buck subs are ID?

I have the same problem and question, because internet brands 'seem' to have the best subwoofers available I don't have the funds to audition multiple subs and have to eat the cost to return them.

When I was auditioning speakers, and because I live only 1.5 hours from NYC it was no problem auditioning multiple speakers and getting what I consider the best that I heard in my price range (Monitor Audio RS6, RSLCR, RS1 and a pair of Axiom QS8). But since I can't do that with my sub purchase (I currently have a Velodyne 5000R) I have to base my choice on reviews and what I consider knowledgeable and unbiased opinions on AVS and other forums that have the ability to compare multiple sub choices in my price range.

So to all of you that I use to help my choice I thank you :D

[TheEAR]

Yeah if it would be that simple. Listen to drums recorded on a variety recordings. You'll find that besides the sound of different brands and type of music say rock vs Jazz you also will encounter signature sound of certain producers or sound engineers. And then you have live vs recorded, all can sound very differently.
My point, to stick to music only in the name of accuracy is no more "objective" then comparing movie soundtracks.It is inherently different though I'll give you that.

It is not so,comparing recorded music on labels like Chesky,ReferenceRecordings,SheffieldLabs and Audioquest for example to movies is a grotesque comparison.

Movies have ZERO accuracy,the explosions and other sound effects are ALL fakes beyond fake.They will never give the accuracy or tell you if the tonal blalance is there NEVER.

Well recorded music is a far better test,real instruments recorded. Not fake bombastic BS sound effects.

[bfdtv]

The EAR,

I know the JL F113 is your favorite, but do you still have any subwoofers priced under $1500? If so, what are your favorites for music?

[TheEAR]

The EAR,

I know the JL F113 is your favorite, but do you still have any subwoofers priced under $1500? If so, what are your favorites for music?


Under $1500 sure....

I purchased a Paradigm Seismic 12 for under $1500 canadian,very good sub for HT and does well for music(those who claim its boomy need to learn to position end set their subs correctly). Solid output,good sound quality and it is very compact.

In the best subs for the money you cannot ignore the HSU VTF series,great sound quality and very impressive output.All this around and under one grand!

SVS has the dual ISD and dual driver Plus subs,both winners with very good sound quality and plenty of output.The cabinets are better constructed than the HSU( just an impression,I would have to open them up to confirm this).

what else....

Velodyne SPL1200,very good music sub and does well in a smaller room as a main HT sub. Sealed subs from Velodyne,you can hardly go wrong.

let me look around...

Klipsch's RT10d and 12d,also very solid HT subs and do fine for music. The room EQ is not at Velodyne's level but takes care of the basics. Also worth a consideration.

You also have most REL and Martin Logan subs that are non intrusive,what many will call musical(no irritating dronig boom).These you have to listen at home as they are wonderful music sub but...lack major HT output.Again depends what you feel is major output to you in your room.


that is it for now

The bulk of my subs is the 2-5K range.Where price does not limit as much the engineers/designers.

[Soundood]

Then this little $200 Integrated from NAD rated @ 20 WPC started dusting all the Big Dog receivers when playing real music ... Maybe a few guys here will remember how good that little 3020 was...

HA! I not only remember the 3020...it was the first piece of good audio gear I ever bought...I still have it and it still works great! That was a sweet little amp with a really decent phono stage.

And I agree with many of the previous posters. So many guys look at the numbers and the specs and proclaim one sub "superior" to another based solely on those numbers. But that doesn't give you the whole story. How deep a sub goes is only 1/2 the picture. How clean a sub is at 150hz is just as important. With a typical 63 or 80 hz crossover point, you will still have substantial amounts of output even up above 150hz from a typical sub and how little the sub screws things up in the mid-bass registers will have a substantial impact on sound quality. So many of the midrange ($500-$1000) subs have impressive numbers on paper...but when it comes to reproducing a double bass or drum kit, they fall woefully short. Particularly when compared to upper line subs or subs that are tuned less for uber extension and take a more balanced approach by giving up a few hz of extension for cleaner sound up top (PMC or Klipsch subs are two good examples). This is because for every reaction there is an equal and opposite reaction and if you tune a moderately priced sub for deep extension, it will come at the price of upper frequency extension and cleanliness. It IS possible to get both (JM Labs, Klipsch THX Ultra 2's, Danley DTS-20 and the big PMC XB subs are good examples) but it won't be at $799.

[thehun]

It is not so,comparing recorded music on labels like Chesky,ReferenceRecordings,SheffieldLabs and Audioquest for example to movies is a grotesque comparison.

Movies have ZERO accuracy,the explosions and other sound effects are ALL fakes beyond fake.They will never give the accuracy or tell you if the tonal blalance is there NEVER.

Well recorded music is a far better test,real instruments recorded. Not fake bombastic BS sound effects.

For somone calling himself the "Ear" you certainly not hearing what I've said.
I said nothing about comparing music to movies. What I was talking about is comparing various music cuts styles and recordings to one another.
Listen Up!

[TheEAR]

For somone calling himself the "Ear" you certainly not hearing what I've said.
I said nothing about comparing music to movies. What I was talking about is comparing various music cuts styles and recordings to one another.
Listen Up!


Sorry I had only one Ear online,you talked to the wrong ear.

Comparing various styles/recordings yes you simply use the most natural/realistic ones for testing new products. What I call demo material.

[thehun]

Sorry I had only one Ear online,you talked to the wrong ear.

Comparing various styles/recordings yes you simply use the most natural/realistic ones for testing new products. What I call demo material.

:) So accuracy is what you make of it? I aggree. ;)

[Mark Seaton]

While ideal accuracy is a concept we like to keep our sights on, when talking about typical recordings, it's a farce. I have heard some un-compressed and very accurate recordings, and you can certainly hear how a system colors, compresses or distorts the original, but the recording technique is a huge variable. As Tom Danley so clearly pointed out to me once, a good mix of recordings with very different sounds will allow you to quickly hear if the playback system makes everything sound like the same space having a similar fingerprint, or if the playback system clearly translates the different sound of each recording.

So far as listening and meausurements with subwoofers, either leaves unknowns and an incomplete picture without the other. It can be very hard to put your finger on what is missing even when you know you have heard "more" from another device. There is also the all important factor of what the room is doing to the response and is that dominating what you hear. The room will always impact the response, but you have to have an idea of if the effects are somewhat common or comparable for multiple locations like LF gain, or if a placement related 10-20dB recession in the 50-80Hz range is killing the subjective kick in the chest effect. Without these added insights, you can only be confident in how the sub will perform in one room and at one location. That is not to say that there are not room-independent factors, but without some further investigation with measurements, it's hard to know what is what with any certainty.

Listening is quite important as well. A finite and especially a reasonable set of measurements can't always capture every detail or fault. You still need to give a product a listen to know that there wasn't something hidden from the measurements or otherwise overlooked. Measurements give us a picture of the capabilities and what a subwoofer obviously can or cannot do. Listening confirms or determines the significance of the strengths and weaknesses.

Both are needed if you are interested in continued improvements.

[bossobass]

I just wanted to say a bit about accuracy and the room.

If you have a well recorded live to two track disc of an upright bass, which covers from 40Hz and up, your system should play it back like it was there in the room.

I have drug an upright into my HT space to prove the point that it doesn't much matter where in the room I set the bass up and wail on it, it sounds the same to the folks sitting there hearing it.

If the room doesn't have enough influence to drastically alter the real thing, it won't through a good system during playback, either.

Certainly, different rooms cause differences in how the sound ends up at your ear, whether it's live or it's memorex, but that's a lame excuse for a poor sounding playback system, IMO.

Sometimes weird combos of filters/slopes/placement/polarity/phase and channel leveling with the sub are required before a touch or two of post EQ, and if you're lazy at set up, you'll pay the price, but a good recording of an acoustic bass (as opposed to most electric and synth basses, which no one can know how the original should sound) should sound good regardless of the room in the end.

Bosso

[TheEAR]

:) So accuracy is what you make of it? I aggree. ;)

Not what I make of it,I know a few musicians who listen to various recordings and recomend what they feel are the best ones. Who other than a well trained musician to judge what is accurate and what is deformed hocus bogus.

Movies are the last place to look,and when some people tell me they want an accurate sub to reproduce all the really fake sounds engineers intended ...it is worthy of a laugh.

[thehun]

Not what I make of it,I know a few musicians who listen to various recordings and recomend what they feel are the best ones. Who other than a well trained musician to judge what is accurate and what is deformed hocus bogus.

Movies are the last place to look,and when some people tell me they want an accurate sub to reproduce all the really fake sounds engineers intended ...it is worthy of a laugh.
You might wanna read Mark Seaton's post as he is actually at the discussion point I wanted to address as well, but you seem to budged down to the none issue of movies vs music age old cry.

[PULLIAMM]

I don't find it easy to listen critically to subs. The reason is that they mostly produce frequencies that are felt rather than heard. by the time I can really begin to distinguish degrees of tonal accuracy, I am usually above the sub's range.

[rossandwendy]

Not what I make of it,I know a few musicians who listen to various recordings and recomend what they feel are the best ones. Who other than a well trained musician to judge what is accurate and what is deformed hocus bogus.

Movies are the last place to look,and when some people tell me they want an accurate sub to reproduce all the really fake sounds engineers intended ...it is worthy of a laugh.

I can say with certainty *for my own ears* that the most musically accurate of the subs I've had in my home has brought wonderful benefits to movie watching as well - the orchestral soundtrack portion of many DVDs benefit from accurate reproduction just as much as a music CD does, and even those "fake" LFE effects greatly benefit from an accurate sub that more fully reveals the various textures and tonalities that have been recorded by the engineers (especially on DTS tracks)but are missed or blurred by less accurate subs. For example, one sub I own makes the engines from the various machines in the famous Star Wars I pod race sound nearly all alike, while a different sub I more recently acquired (that has proven much more accurate on well-recorded acoustic and orchestral music CDs) easily distinguishes a variety of textures and sounds in those engines. So a musically accurate sub that reveals more subtleties on movie DVDs is far more enjoyable to me than a less accurate one-note-wonder sub.

[rossandwendy]

EDIT: double posted