FnEasy DIY Painted Screen Solution [Text View]

tiddler

12-29-06, 02:00 AM

Substrate Preparation

A smooth flat surface is required to produce a screen that is not noticeable in the projected image. The type of texture that long nap rollers leave on the wall is detrimental for a front projection screen surface. If the surface you are going to paint has this type of roller stipple it will need to be sanded down to a smooth finish. The alternative is to cover the surface with a substrate such as MDF, 1/8" hardboard or masonite.

For detailed instructions on drywall substrate preparation please refer to Dry Wall / Substrate Preparation (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8164031&&#post8164031) chapter-post that was provided by MississippiMan in the Beginner's Guide To DIY Screens (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8155618&&#post8155618) .

Wet Sanding

Typically the interior walls of homes are painted with latex paint. Latex is a rubber like material. If you try to sand it with an orbital sander you will soon learn why wet sanding is necessary. The latex paint will roll up into little rubber balls and render the sand paper useless. Wet sanding is done with a special sanding sponge that you get wet. The water prevents the latex from clogging up the sand paper.

From what little I have read in the forum it is best to use long sweeping strokes with the sanding sponge. Unfortunately I have no first hand experience with wet sanding a screen sized area of a wall so I cannot provide anymore direction than that.

Sandable Primer

I believe there are some sandable primer products on the market. This type of primer is almost like a skim coat of drywall compound. It drys hard and can be sanded like drywall compound.

Fresh Screen Substrate

In many cases the wall would require an inordinate amount of repair and sanding to achieve a smooth flat surface. In that case it may be necessary to install a fresh substrate to paint. It is possible to order MDF in sizes large enough to make a 120" 16:9 screen. The MDF should be primed to seal the surface and prepare it to take the latex base layer screen paint. It is also possible to get 4x8 sheets of masonite or hardboard that are smooth and would make good paint substrates.

Smooth White Primed Surface

The following posts assume you will prepare a suitable substrate and prime it with a good quality white primer. The best foundation for the FnEasy solution is a smooth surface with a uniform matte white finish.

tiddler

12-29-06, 02:01 AM

Flat Latex Paint Layer

This is the layer that determines the color of the screen. There are many choices of gray paints that can be used for this layer. If you have already found a gray that you are satisfied with then use it. Ideally any gray used for a projection screen should be as neutral as possible. With that in mind I have determine a set of tint formulas that will produce near neutral shades of gray. If a white screen is desired then simply use the Behr UPW #1050 untinted.

FnEasy Custom Tinted Behr UPW

The following custom tint formulas will produce shades of balanced gray. What I mean by balanced is that the Red and Blue RGB value are very close and the Green is slightly lower. This represents the V RGB curve that you may have heard refered to in other threads.

Through experimentation it was determined that a ratio of (2:1) of Lamp Black to Yellow Oxide will result in a nicely balanced gray whe used to tint Behr Ultra Pure White Flat Latex #1050 . By varying the amount of Lamp Black + Yellow Oxide the lightness of gray can be controled.

The FnEasy Naming convention is "FnEasy-nn", where nn stands for the number of 48th oz. of Lamp Black used in the tint. Based on the (2:1) ratio the amount of Yellow Oxide will always be 1/2 of the amount of Lamp Black.

All of the following tint formulas are for a quart of Behr UPW Flat Latex #1050 .
To convert to gallon tint formulas, just multiply all the values by 4.

FnEasy Tint Formulas for a Quart of Behr UPW #1050 Flat Latex:
------------------------------
FnEasy-01 Custom Tint
Quart Behr UPW #1050
0 1 0 Lamp Black
0 0 1 Yellow Oxide
------------------------------

------------------------------
FnEasy-02 Custom Tint
Quart Behr UPW #1050
0 2 0 Lamp Black
0 0 1 Yellow Oxide
------------------------------

------------------------------
FnEasy-03 Custom Tint
Quart Behr UPW #1050
0 3 0 Lamp Black
0 1 0 Yellow Oxide
------------------------------

------------------------------
FnEasy-04 Custom Tint
Quart Behr UPW #1050
0 4 0 Lamp Black
0 1 1 Yellow Oxide
------------------------------

------------------------------
FnEasy-05 Custom Tint
Quart Behr UPW #1050
0 5 0 Lamp Black
0 2 0 Yellow Oxide
------------------------------

------------------------------
FnEasy-06 Custom Tint
Quart Behr UPW #1050
0 6 0 Lamp Black
0 2 1 Yellow Oxide
------------------------------

------------------------------
FnEasy-07 Custom Tint
Quart Behr UPW #1050
0 7 0 Lamp Black
0 2 1 Yellow Oxide
------------------------------

------------------------------
FnEasy-08 Custom Tint
Quart Behr UPW #1050
0 8 0 Lamp Black
0 3 0 Yellow Oxide
------------------------------

------------------------------
FnEasy-09 Custom Tint
Quart Behr UPW #1050
0 9 0 Lamp Black
0 3 1 Yellow Oxide
------------------------------

Manufacturer's Named Tints

Sherwin Williams "Gray Screen", SW 7071, RGB 199 203 203
This is a very neutral gray. It is available in a matte and flat finish. If you do not plan on top coating it with Behr Matte Poly then the matte finish is much more durable and washeable. As the base layer in the FnEasy appliction I would recommend you get the flat finish.
[INDENT]The base is Duration ExtraWhite matte finish 6403-63925
BAC Colorant 02 32 64 128
B1-Black - 20 1 -
Y3-Deep Gold - 5 - 1

True Value "Winter Mountain", #1982, RGB 200 201 201
Very neutral gray.
Lamp Blk 22
Raw Umber 24
Red 2

Glidden "Wispy Gray", 50GY 62/029, RGB 206 204 208
This is a fairly neutral gray from Glidden
CIL == Glidden
CIL DULUX Int. Latex -Flat
WISPY GREY (50GY 62/029)
Pure White (2110)
Per GALLON
B 0 22 0 Lamp Black
C 0 08 0 Yellow Oxide
D 0 02 0 Thalo Green

Behr "Sterling" #780E-3 mixed in UPW #1050, RGB ??? ??? ???
This is a better balanced gray than "Silverscreen" and it is also from Behr.

For additional information on neutral gray paints please refer to the Grays- Simple one can paints, and one very neutral... (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8735785&&#post8735785) thread. It was started by wbassett to explore the availability of off-the-shelf tinted gray paints that measure very neutral and re close in shade to the Munsell Gray Scale.

tiddler

12-29-06, 02:02 AM

Matte Polyurethane Top Coat

NOTE: At Home Depot, the Behr Clear Matte Polyurethane is usually stocked with the Behr Faux Finish products. The Faux Finish products are the Silver Metallic, and Faux Glaze etc. If the HD staff say they do not have the Behr #780 poly then ask for the Behr Fauz Glaze. Take a look near the Faux Glaze to see if the Behr #780 Poly is there. The Behr Clear Matte Poly#780 is recommended by Behr to top coat the faux finishes to protect them and make the surface more durable. The Behr Clear Matte Poly #780 is NOT usually stocked near the other polyurethanes and wood stains.

http://www.behr.com/images/productgroup/78001_806152.jpg

It is the use of Behr Clear Matte Polyurethane #780 (http://www.behr.com/behrx/act/view/products_detail?prodGroupId=21&catName=Faux%2FDecorative+Finishes&catId=18) as a performance enhancing top coat that I discovered by accident and that sets this DIY screen paint solution apart from the others.

There are three key elements to this poly top coat.

First of all it is a matte finish polyurethane and therefore introduces a minimal amount of surface sheen. Substituting it with a satin finish polyurethane will cause hot spotting.

Secondly it is used unaltered. Do not add anything and that includes water. Adding any color ingredients will make applying a uniform coating much more difficult. It is clear and therefore small variations in coat thickness are not apparent in the image. Adding anything to the polyurethane will defeat this advantage.

Thirdly the Behr Matte Poly was formulated to be rolled over faux finishes. It was therefore meant to be rolled and spreads very well. As it drys it llevels out to a very smooth matte finish.

Application

It is important that you stir the polyurethane before using it. The flattening agent settles out of the polyurethane. If you do not stir it it will produce a clear finish with too much sheen. be careful not to stir it too vigorously or shake it. This will introduce bubbles that will cause blemishes in the surface finish.

Apply the polyurethane using the same techniques as employed for the primer and paint. It will look like a smooth glassy coating just after application. There will be some roller texture at first but that will smooth out completely as it drys.

I generally recommend two coats just to ensure a good coverage. One coat is sufficient to protect the underlying flat latex surface and to create the gain boosting effect. Two coats is just for good measure. I would not recommend any more than two coats as the coating may get cloudy or introduce an unwanted color shift.

Test Results

In order to isolate the effect of the polyurethane top coat, I asked prof55 to perform the gain measurements on the plain white Behr UPW #1050 samples. Here are the results:

_0° _10° _20° _30° _40° _50° Viewing Angle
1.00 0.98 0.94 0.86 0.76 0.64 Da-Lite Matte White
1.13 1.12 1.04 0.96 0.86 0.72 Behr UPW #1050
1.30 1.20 1.08 0.96 0.84 0.68 Behr UPW 2c #780 Poly

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l84/tiddlerPics/FnEasyScreenPainting/FnEasy_UPW_Gain.jpg

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l84/tiddlerPics/FnEasyScreenPainting/FnEasyGains.jpg

The Behr Matte Polyurethane #780 top coats increases the gain for viewing angles less than 30 degrees and only slightly reduces the gain at wider angles. So we can conclude that the clear matte polyurethane top coat does have a beneficial effect on the flat paint surface without any significant reduction in viewing cone. In addition it makes the surface very durable and washable.

Alternative Matte Polyurethane Products
Pratt & Lambert: Interior Acrylic Latex Varnish Dull Finish Z39 / Z39C (http://www.prattandlambert.com/documents/product_data_sheet/39.pdf)
A fast drying, clear acrylic dull finish with low odor and non-yellowing qualities when applied over latex stains. Provides excellent adhesion, leveling and uniformity.

American Traditions Faux Acrylic Flat Latex Clear Protector #64675 (Quart) (http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=64675-4-64675&lpage=none)
http://images.lowes.com/product/converted/042397/042397588884md.jpg (http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=64675-4-64675&lpage=none)

TeamSpeed

01-02-07, 10:42 AM

Thanks to all the wonderful effort here, I decided to make my own fixed screen for as little money as possibly allowed given the material in this area.

Also, I am an owner of the LumenLab Evo version launch version, so we are talking about getting an entry level projector working with said screen as best as I can with this DIY, coupled with the Evo's limited specs and my living space.

I know I could have started with a cheaper substrate had I known I wanted gray, but I thought the Polywall would be all I needed. However, when I put some gray painted WA-DW samples up against the Polywall, the Evo needs a gray screen to draw out more contrast, and it has the lumens necessary to light up a gray. So I had only one option and that was to paint my Polywall.

Here is my post at Lumenlab. I am very happy with the color and contrast of this finished screen due to all the research performed here, many thanks to Tiddler too.

==========================================================
============ Plain White Polywall Board ===============
==========================================================

So after following all the DIY stuff over at AVS Science, I finally decided whether I could build the cheapest screen I could, and if it failed to work out, I would just go buy either the LL electric screen or the Monoprice electric screen. I figure my total cost of all the material is about $65.

Took about all day, due to my only power tools being a cordless drill and new stapler, and my only saw being a hacksaw, but I finally framed and felted my frame, and got the Polywall stapled to the frame. My biggest hurdle was not actually in building the screen, but the fact that my screen has to sit off my wall about 10 inches, to clear the mantel and the wall artwork. I tried a few things and finally got it to sit on my mantel and then suspend off the wall using a couple of those double hooks with the threaded middle section that loosens or tightens both hooks. These mount to the sides of the frame and then to hooks in the wall a few inches above.

Anyway, the picture is pretty nice, I still wish Parkland Plastics would make a gray polywall, I tried a sample of Wilsonart Designer White, and painted a few different gray sections on it. I really liked the contrast of the gray, but this white screen will work.

Our living room is the worst possible layout for a PJ. Cathredal ceilings, every single ceiling and wall is white. White vinyl blinds on the windows, and a wide viewing area. Nothing even close to a theatre room. But anyway, here is how it all worked out using the Evo with a Parkland Polywall DIY screen. Loads better than my white wall, but now that I am projecting 10" forward, my screen size is now down to a 96" instead of 105".

Pic of screen in fully lit room:
http://www.invisicord.com/images/misc/evo_1a.jpg (http://www.invisicord.com/images/misc/evo_1.jpg)

Pic of screen in dark room:
http://www.invisicord.com/images/misc/evo_2a.jpg (http://www.invisicord.com/images/misc/evo_2.jpg)

==========================================================
============ NOW for the Painted Gray Coat ===============
==========================================================

Okay, got my two coats of DIY Gray put on the screen using a roller, then two coats of Behr flat poly.

Recipe (2 coats):

Behr bright white #1050 (quart)
0 4 0 lamp black
0 1 0 yellow oxide (mixed at Home Depot)

Plus (2 coats):

Behr Flat Poly (quart)

Here are the before and after results:

BEFORE GRAY: Plain Polywall Board, at night with lights very dim:
http://www.invisicord.com/images/misc/evo_pp_dark.jpg

AFTER GRAY: Gray/Flat Poly Coated Polywall Board, at night with lights very dim:
http://www.invisicord.com/images/misc/evo_gray_dark.jpg

Gray/Flat Poly Coated Polywall Board, during day:
http://www.invisicord.com/images/misc/evo_gray_day.jpg

Gray/Flat Poly Coated Polywall Board, at night with lights on normal:
http://www.invisicord.com/images/misc/evo_gray_lite.jpg

For those that want to know how this looks with the Xbox 360 projecting at 1080i and the Evo downscaling it:

Gray/Flat Poly Coated Polywall Board, at night with lights on normal:
http://www.invisicord.com/images/misc/evo_xbox_lite.jpg

Gray/Flat Poly Coated Polywall Board, at night with lights very dim:
http://www.invisicord.com/images/misc/evo_xbox_dark.jpg

TeamSpeed

01-02-07, 10:42 PM

Some Fifth Element shots that show some of the contrast of this very simple 2+2 gray/poly combo with the Evo 1.0 projector. Very dark room, the only light was up in the loft at the desk where my daughter was on the computer.

Funny thing, the opera music piece on this movie also plays at some point in the Rainbow Six Vegas game, as you are running around a theater building, you can hear it in the background.

http://www.invisicord.com/images/misc/evo_gray_fe_1.jpg
http://www.invisicord.com/images/misc/evo_gray_fe_2.jpg
http://www.invisicord.com/images/misc/evo_gray_fe_3.jpg

hutzal

01-11-07, 01:14 PM

TeamSpeed

01-11-07, 02:48 PM

that grey coat sure added alot of detail, I am watching this thread closely as I will be painting my own screen within the next month in a completely light controlled room but some dimming lights during movies.

With those of us that cannot control ambient light and have wide rooms, the only real screen I would consider at this point after having tried so many dalite and laminate samples would be some form of a gray screen, painted or pigmented. It really provides the needed contrast to make the colors pop more and detail to show a bit more than a 1.0 or higher gain white screen. Of course, I am working with a low-end Evo projector, so I can only imagine how this would look with a higher res PJ with better contrast and output. However my goal was to use the Evo as my evening television, and it does that quite admirably.

TeamSpeed

01-11-07, 03:01 PM

Tiddler, it might be good either on this thread or another one to build a database of info with 2-5 screen shots from each person. It would be useful for new folks to dig through and find a configuration that closely matches what they want to do.

Here is what I see could provide a useful template (take space out before ending brackets)

[SIZE=4 ]
Room Condition: [/b ]<describe room conditions>
[b ]Light Control: [/b ]<describe ambient light and how much control>
[b ]Projector: [/b ]<describe projector make, lumens, resolution, contrast>
[b ]Screen Make: [/b ]<fixed or rollup or material or wall>
[b ]Screen Material: [/b ]<laminate brand and color, or cloth type, or substrate>
[b ]Screen Size: [/b ]<diagonal size, format>
[b ]Approx DIY cost: [/b ]<state rough cost of paint, materials, etc for screen>
[b ]Alterations: [/b ]<as is or did you paint it>
[b ]Recipe if applic: [/b ]<materials w/part numbers, size, mix ratio, etc>
[/SIZE ]

[b]
EDIT: I started a new thread for this due to all the ingenuity on this forum and diversity of different DIY projects.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=785709

gonelong

01-13-07, 12:27 PM

Picked up some Matte #780 today - finally found it at Home Depot. Eventually I'll get around to my FNEasy project.

GL

shawn28341

01-13-07, 10:01 PM

Tiddler,What software are people using to adjust their projectors ? For Brightness and contrast calibrations..

TeamSpeed

01-13-07, 11:10 PM

I have the Extreme Version of Terminator 2 and it has a very simple THX calibration on it. I also have the Digital Video Essentials dvd but I found it too confusing.

Ditto, I used the THX calibration on Cars, and it is on many other DVDs as well.

Zorac

01-14-07, 10:20 PM

do all paints use the same tint? can i take your paint code to another a paint store with a different band of paint use it?

i would like to use a light grey, and am going to put cmra's silver top mix on it.

Zorac

01-15-07, 12:18 AM

i was thinking of using benjermin moore, i have access to behr, i was just never very impressed with their paint. benjermin moore always seemed to be a better paint, better coverage, less coats and easier to not leave roller lines or brush marks. the store is also closer... :P

also the home depos ive been in never carry kilz2, and benjermin moore has a primer called fresh start, which ill use regardless, as its probably the best primer ive used in terms of coverage.

i love the concept of using munsell greys, being an engineer, i loved engineering solutions! :P

im not sure if benjermin moore carries a clear water based flat poly and silver, but id like to use that as well, and possibly try the silver top coat. im not sure how transparent the silver top coat is. i maybe able to get away with using just a tinted primer. probably end up being just a last minute decision in the store. :D

ktaillon

01-15-07, 11:21 AM

I had some great results with using the Winter Mountain #1982 flat paint. I tried the technique that Tiddler talked about using matte poly over the grey.

Page 3 shows some examples with a piece of grey board in front of my RS_MAX screen.

I used a base of glossy white, the grey flat paint then one coat of the matte poly over.

The blacks are great, the whites and color are very good. The screen does very well with light on in the room also.

This is a great one paint method!!

http://focus.its.wesleyan.edu/gallery/album03

Wet1

01-15-07, 12:07 PM

Ken,

Thanks for the feedback on the Winter Mountain. So it sounds like you prefer it over the RS_MAX?

I was thinking about using the WM with either some metallic silver in the paint or MS in the topcoat. My thoughts are this will hopefully add some gain to the screen while still offering the attributes you've mentioned.

ktaillon

01-15-07, 12:42 PM

The main reason I am trying different mixes is because of the results of rolling RS-MAX. I thought I was pretty good at rolling but I still can see vertical lines when a white screen or a sky seen is shown. I also get a grey look over the entire screen. I think this is the metalics not laying down uniformally.

I was able to roll the grey screen without any problems and the same for the top coat of poly.

I also tried adding a semi-gloss poly into the grey but the matee over coat seems to work better. I also did many test paints using Silver Screen.

I think RS-MAX is a great mix but you need to spray it.

Thanks again Tiddler and wBassett.

Now I need to paint a full size screen...

ktaillon

01-15-07, 01:12 PM

Sorry Tiddler I forgot, Yes the sceen is still calibrated to the RS-MAX mix. I will be changing this as soon as I paint the new screen. This is a 85" screen, the projector is the Pansonic AE-900U.

I also noticed that the Winter Mountain/Poly works great with the lights on.

Wet1

01-15-07, 01:21 PM

I also noticed that the Winter Mountain/Poly works great with the lights on.
Does it look noticeably better than the RS_MAX with ambient light?

Thanks again for your input. :)

ktaillon

01-15-07, 01:39 PM

RS-MAX is very good in the light but I would say this is a little better. But it seems to be a trade off. The darker the mix the better the blacks. The Winter Mountain seems to be in a good trade off spot. Great blacks and still very good whites and color(with the poly top coat).

Some of the other one paint mixes have great blacks but the whites look a little grey.

wbassett

01-15-07, 06:27 PM

Thanks for the screen shots ktaillon.

Is the projector calibrated for the RS-MaxxMudd screen?

This is a good comparison shot:
http://focus.its.wesleyan.edu/albums/album03/nimo_12ft_zoom.sized.jpg

It shows that RS-MaxxMudd has the edge as far as image quality is concerned but for the beginner the FnEasy approach may be more likely to turn out uniform on the first try.
I think the image quality in both look very good. The only thing I see that the panel looks a little darker, but not drastically. Whites look very white and the color reproduction looks just as good. WM is a darker shade of gray, so it will be a little darker in direct comparison like this, that is not an excuse by no means just pointing out that even a darker gray commercial screen is going to exhibit the same things when compared to a lighter screen.

I'm positive once a full size screen is up and the projector is fully calibrated for the shade, the screen will look fantastic.

kenyee

01-19-07, 01:34 PM

ktaillon: why didn't you just use Winter Mountain in an eggshell vs. WM flat w/ a coat of matte poly?

blindbartimaeus

01-20-07, 09:05 PM

Where can I score some Wintermountain?

mindgam3

01-20-07, 09:17 PM

I received some test results and the (2:1) ratio of Lamp Black to Yellow Oxide produces a very well balance neutral gray.

Quart Formula:
Behr UPW Flat Latex #1050
0 6 0 Lamp Black
0 3 0 Yellow Oxide
RGB = 202 197 203

You can vary the shade by increasing or decreasing the amount of Lamp Black while maintaining the (2:1) ratio with Yellow Oxide. I would not recommend more than 0 8 0 Lamp Black.

The next thing we will look at is what effect the poly top coat is having on gain and viewing cone.

I went with the 0 6 0 Lamp Black, 0 3 0 Yellow Oxide today. I started the painting , hopefully everything turns out good!

imuesmail

01-21-07, 09:31 PM

Hi Tiddler,
I painted my Parkland with a primer and UPW about 2 years ago. Is it too late to go ahead now with the Poly? Do I need to start with the base again??
Thanks,
Imu

Wet1

01-21-07, 09:50 PM

As long as the base paint is still in good shape and has no defects, you are okay to poly over it.

ktaillon

01-23-07, 11:32 AM

Kenyee,

I did not try the matte finish WM but I did try WM/matte poly and also WM/semi-gloss poly mixed together. Didn't make as much of a difference as rolling the matte poly over the flat WM paint.

There is something good going on when you apply the poly by itself over the flat paint.

I will be painting my 85" screen (again HA HA) with WM and matte poly over it, then I'll recalibrate the projector and get some more screen shots. I hope soon, it's been so cold out side.

kenyee

01-23-07, 03:05 PM

I did not try the matte finish WM but I did try WM/matte poly and also WM/semi-gloss poly mixed together. Didn't make as much of a difference as rolling the matte poly over the flat WM paint.
There is something good going on when you apply the poly by itself over the flat paint.

Thanks. I was mainly curious what the visual difference was between using straight WM eggshell vs. flat WM+polytopcoat to see if the poly topcoat layer could be avoided for those of us who are lazy :-)

The only comment I could find was that eggshell should be avoided because it hotspots which doesn't make sense to me because a poly layer should hotspot as well (hotspots being excessive reflection at a certain angle IMO), but given that I've used glidden gripper primer and it's also an eggshell-like finish and I have no hotspotting issues, I'm tempted to go w/ WM eggshell unless WM flat+poly is a lot better...

Brewed

01-23-07, 07:49 PM

It's nice to know someone else has finally confirmed this and it's not just my imagination.

Thanks

You'll be getting more feedback from me soon on this. I went against YOUR grain and doctored a GALLON of UPW with:

0 8 0 Lamp Black

0 4 0 Yellow Oxide

This was based on your formula for a QUART and the guy on the Simple Gray thread who was happy with his slightly gray screen who also butchered your recommended formula. I'm breaking new ground.....hehehe.

I also bought a quart of the Behr #780 Poly (you never mentioned that this stuff is $14 a quart and the lady at Home Depot thought I was having a heart attack).

Seriously, I'm a newb and currently watching on two coats of Kilz with a light cannon (Panny Ax100) in a dark room.

Will paint this weekend and report back. I have my new little bitty foam rollers ready to go. Thanks for all the work and info you have provided for this endeavor.

Incremental Approach Stage #2 is in the works.

dwhisent

01-24-07, 03:03 PM

Right now I have basically an FnEasy solution going that I have been talking about in my wimpy low power projector thread, where I put 2 coats of Kilz 2 on my basement wall, covered that with 2 coats of UPW, and just put on 2 coats of poly (wow, what a difference that made!).

Anyway, while I was shelling out the $$ for a quart of poly at HD, I saw what was (for me, at least) an new type of roller, called a mini roller. The roller frame is basically a 1/4 inch rod (including the part the roller spins on), and the rollers are about 6-8" long and about an inch in diameter. They come in various naps, I used a pink 1/4 inch nap for the poly. The roller frames come in a couple of different lengths, I bought one that was a couple of feet long. Here are a couple of links I googled to show what I am talking about.

http://colorify.en.alibaba.com/product/50031675/50144643/Mini_Roller_Frames/Mini_Roller_Frames.html

http://www.alibaba.com/catalog/11542805/Mini_Roller.html

I was surprised at how easy it was to use these for the poly coats, and the rollers were about a buck each in a 12-pack. I don't know how these would do for a whole room paint job, but for painting a screen area they seem pretty nice! They seemed to me to be lighter and give more control than the standard rollers. But then again, I'm a computer geek, not a painter...

dwhisent

01-24-07, 03:26 PM

I doubt the UPW was necessary. I bet I could have put the poly on top of the Kilz2 and gotten the same results, maybe somebody could try it for sure. I noticed little or no difference after putting on the UPW.

However, putting the UPW directly on my wall, in the shape it was in, would probably not have worked well. It was covered with marks, plus I had to fill in some dents with sheetrock mud. Primer was definitely called for, and it took 2 coats.

kenyee

01-24-07, 03:53 PM

I don't know how these would do for a whole room paint job, but for painting a screen area they seem pretty nice!

These hotdog rollers work *really* well for regular painting as well. I won't use the regular big rollers any more. I find the hotdog rollers put on a much more even coat.
Thanks for the comments about the poly. Sounds worth it, though I'd still love to see an eggshell vs flat+poly comparison to satisfy my curiosity :-)

Steve Scherrer

01-24-07, 04:22 PM

I agree primer is usually a good idea. If the primer provides a good base paint then why bother with the UPW is all I am thinking. I think Kilz 2 can be tinted also so it could work for a gray version also.

This was my experience. I have many layers of primer mixes and UPW mixes over my screen, and by far the easiest to apply were the primer mixes. In fact, it wasn't even a contest. With each application of tinted UPW, I had roller marks. With the tinted primer, I never had a roller mark, no matter how careless I was.

Have yet to add the matte poly topcoat. Does it really make that big of a difference?

mindgam3

01-24-07, 08:28 PM

I cant wait to try the poly. I currently have finished painting a 12 / 24 gallon mix. The picture looks nice from my hd72 but I want a bit more punch to the image that I miss from my GWII table mounted. Any guesses on what the gain is from the poly? 1.3 perhaps? Or am I hoping for too much!?

Steve Scherrer

01-25-07, 10:34 AM

Over a flat paint, YES!

Tiddler--you have a roll-up screen, right? I noticed on the can of poly that it discusses the "hardness" of the material when dry. Any problems with it cracking when rolling up your screen?

Wet1

01-25-07, 10:59 AM

Polyurethane is very flexible and will not crack nearly as easily as standard paint. One word of caution though... it will peal off if the base surface is not well prepped (meaning it needs something to grip on to). As long as the surface is clean and has enough texture, you'll be fine.

Anyway, poly should not crack or chip off a roll-up screen with reasonable handling.

Zorac

01-25-07, 02:35 PM

With each application of tinted UPW, I had roller marks. With the tinted primer, I never had a roller mark, no matter how careless I was.

try a different paint, i too had problem with behr and roller marks, i went to benjermin moore paints, and have never had an issue since. i also use those small foam rollers for poly, and find they leave the most consistent and mar free surface.

Kimo

01-27-07, 05:08 PM

Questions from a newbie:
Been lurking for a while getting educated from all your wonderful experience. Bought a panny ax100u and had finally decided on a FnEasy 110" wall screen using a base of UPW Gloss followed by 2 coats of TRuvalue 1982 Winter Mountain Flat and 2 coats of Behr 780 Matte poly. At least that was the plan.

Today I went to Home Depot only to be told they no longer carry Behr Poly and the dullest finish they had for any poly was satin. Struck out finding a matte poly anywhere. Anyone know of another matte poly they could recommend?

Then I went to TruValue to get the 1982 Winter Mountain only to be told they never heard of it. Had them call their supplier who also couldn't find it. Lot's of other grays out there so more curious than disaapointed about the WM. Is it a discontined color or only a west coast product or ????.

So after much indecision I finally decide on a FnEasy screen only to be stuck in the starting gate. Any help would be appreciated.

Kimo

01-27-07, 10:03 PM

Tiddler
Thanks for the reply. I will check out other HDs and also try to track down the Pratt and Lambert. Will try the lamp black and yellow oxide recipe instead of the WM.

kenyee

01-27-07, 10:27 PM

Kimo: the Boston area TrueValue stores have Winter Mountain. You might want to hit their web site (truevaluepaint.com) and do a search for ones w/ paint departments and call around if you want to use that...

mindgam3

01-28-07, 01:43 AM

Wet1

01-29-07, 08:34 AM

Excellent info regrading the gain testing. It would be interesting to see actual gain of the tinted UPW(1 qt UPW, 0 6 0 BL, 0 3 0 YO), w/ and w/o the poly.

I picked up a gallon of tinted Behr UPW (0 24 0 LB, 0 12 0 YO), which Tiddler suggested. It took the guy 5 minutes and the color looks excellent. I still have to add the poly TC over it, but it looks great as is... even without any PJ calibrations.

A quick observation regarding the Behr UPW... No matter how careful I was, I had a very hard time trying to get rid of roller marks. I tried the smaller 1/4" hard foam (smooth) rollers and a 3/16" synthetic traditional roller. The foam seemed to give better results, but still left some minimal roller marks. My next screen(s) using the remainder of the gallon I bought will be sprayed for this reason. The UPW covers well, but doesn't roll all that well IMO. I think we need to get some data on Kilz 2. If it tests as neutral as the UPW, it would certainly be a better option.

Wet1

01-29-07, 09:54 AM

I'm surprised your HD doesn't carry Kilz 2, I would have thought they all carry it.

I almost tried using the tinted K2 over the tinted UPW, but since this is screen is just about the finishing touch for our totally remodeled BR, I didn't want to start playing musical screens as the wife is stressed enough with all the work we've (okay, I've) done in there... she just wants it to be finished at this point.

Since I still have over 3 qts of the tinted UPW left, I won't be needing any more neutral gray for some time (not to mention I have plenty of the original Kilz in the basement). So while I'd love to buy some K2 and send out a test panel for testing, it's just not practical for me to do at this time.

Hopefully someone will test the K2, because I truly believe this is going to be a better choice over the UPW. In retrospect, I now wish I had bought the tinted K2 instead.

dwhisent

01-29-07, 02:01 PM

For Kilz 2, try your local Wal Mart, that's where I bought mine. But my HD also carried it.

Brewed

01-29-07, 09:01 PM

From what I have read here, K2 is a highly pigmented white primer and is tintable. That makes me think the tint ratio to get a balance gray may be quite similar to the UPW.

If there is someone about to try the FnEasy solution and they were willing to try the Kilz 2 only approach, I would suggest they try a ratio of (3:1) Lamp Black to Yellow Oxide. That is basically the ratio I used for my own screen. It may have a bit more of a blue push but not so much that they would be unhappy with the results. I am certainly happy with my screen. I think a slight blue push is better than too much Yellow Oxide. Whites that start to look yellow are more disturbing than whites that are a bit cool.

This willing pioneer could then prepare two sample cards of the tinted K2. Then when they top coat the screen they could top coat one of the cards. Then it is just a matter of sending the samples off to prof55 for RGB and gain measurements. I just painted some white posterboard. I was making up cards that would fit easily in an envelope for 8.5" x 11" paper. It cost me about $2 to mail them to prof55. The value of the resulting measurements is priceless as far as I am concerned.

I'm very confident they would still end up with a screen that they are pleased with and they would have contributed to this FnEasy solution by helping to narrow down the tint formula for the Kilz 2.

Quart Formula:
0 6 0 Lamp Black
0 2 0 Yellow Oxide

Gallon Formula:
0 24 0 Lamp Black
0 _8 0 Yellow Oxide

Any takers?

Should I be losing faith here? Post #45 by you clearly states that the ratio should be 2:1 LB to YO for UPW. And now you tell us that your screen is 3:1?

No animosity intended. You've been a wonderful resource for me. Just this weekend I painted my screen with 0 8 0 LB 0 4 0 YO in a GALLON (very subtle gray) over Kilz and there was a definite "incremental" improvement. The Behr poly goes on next weekend and if it doesn't work, it's only paint. The ability to start over is the beauty of this whole endeavor.

Thank you for your time and effort.

mindgam3

01-29-07, 09:15 PM

What will the difference be between one coat of poly vs two?

Brewed

01-29-07, 09:46 PM

I was in a hurry and painted mine before I had hard data. Mind you I had made up 2'x4' sample panels to try it first.

The (2:1) ratio of LB to YO in Behr UPW #1050 will give you a balanced gray with a slight deficiency of 5 points on the green. This is what you want and is a better tint formula to produce the desired balanced neutral gray.

I know the Kilz2 is a bit lower in blue to start with so it should not require as much Yellow Oxide to balance it. Someone posted recently that the Kilz2 was bit more yellow than the UPW. That is why I suggested that if someone wanted to try tinting the Kilz2 that they should try a (3:1) ratio. It may not be not be perfectly balance but close enough to give them a good screen. Then we could test a sample from them and tweak it in closer.

I may be silly enough to go out and by paint I don't need but I don't expect that of others. Ideally someone would do exactly what I did and produce a half dozen samples with different ratios of YO to LB. If no one else trys the approach I suggested above then I will probably end up dropping another $30 dollars on paint just to satisfy my own curiosity and simplify FnEasy even more.

I'm the same way. As long as I don't add up what I've spent on paint (friggin' paint!) I don't care.

But my next step is to put the Behr poly on (yeah, you're still on the hook). I don't even really know what "improvement" I'm looking for. But it keeps getting better step by step. I keep throwing the "incremental" word at you but it's working quite well for me.

Thanx

Wet1

01-29-07, 09:50 PM

The poly will increse the gain of the screen... or make the image brighter. It will also protect the surface and make it easier to clean. ;)

dwhisent

01-30-07, 01:21 PM

Just as another data point, I finally found some parkland polywall (a busted up sheet, but I negotiated a deal) and stuck a 2x3 chunk of it in the middle of my Kilz2/UPW/Matte Poly FnEasy screen. Using my Movietime DV10 (1000 or less lumens, coffee table mounted), there was almost no discernable difference, regardless of room lighting levels (total dark to all room lights on). In total darkness, the whites were maybe just a bit muted on the polywall, and the colors maybe a fraction duller, but I kept having to concentrate to see the line where one started and the other ended. Between the two, I would choose the FnEasy, although I think either would do fine for me.

SWB001

01-30-07, 03:20 PM

SWB001

01-30-07, 03:30 PM

I searched online for Behr Poly and it is listed under the faux finish paints. I called HD and asked if they had Behr 780 Poly and they said "no". Then I asked that he check his faux finish area . . . "oh, yeah we do have it" :mad: :eek:

Maybe it was mentioned before, but if you go to HD look for the poly w/ the Behr faux finish paints.

Both HDs previously said they didn't have it! :mad:

We'll I'm gonna try again.

bud16415

01-30-07, 11:00 PM

As another point of reference, I had just completed drywall in my basement and thought I would give this approach a try. I had previously tested my projector using an MDF sheet with the Behr Silverscreen.

The 060:030 mix seemed to work well. I applied (2) coats over a PVA drywall primer. Neither HD in my area had the Behr poly, or any flat / matte poly. I tried the Satin. It hot-spots and didn't roll smooth (small bubbles).

I assume with the matte poly there is no glare issue? Anyone else use a different matte poly? And if so from where?

I used Olympic clear satin water based polyurethane (premium interior) number 42786.
Used alone as a top coat I found as you did it will hot spot under modest lumen projector.

What I did and its detailed in the thread in my signature was to blend the poly with the same paint I used as a base. This is a different approach than the FnEasy approach and the only one I would recommend with satin.

prof55

02-01-07, 10:21 AM

Encouraged by my success at determining a balanced gray tint formula for Behr UPW #1050 I am thinking of trying to determine an RGBY tint formula that also produces a balanced (maybe neutral) gray. There are the basic red, green, blue, and yellow tints available within the 12 tints available for Behr UPW #1050.

What's the yellow for?

Garry

wack70

02-01-07, 01:27 PM

OK, I have an Infocus IN72 (2000:1 contrast ratio) projecting a 106" diag. image on to my wall that is currently textured with basic "orange peel" spray texture. I'm planning on sanding down the texture's high peaks/ridges then floating on a few layers of joint compound and smoothing it down. The room will be pretty dark with blackout curtains, so very little ambient light. Please tell me if the next steps sound right:
- prime the screen area with 2 coats of Kilz 2
- roll on 2 coats of custom tinted Behr UPW with a lighter neutral gray mix (0 4 0 LB + 0 2 0 YO)
- roll on 1 coat of Behr Matte Poly #780
- watch movies
I'm tempted to try Tiddler's Kilz 2 tint experiment mainly because I'm a perfectionist and will hate dealing with roller lines. I believe his suggested tint mix was 0 6 0 LB + 0 2 0 YO.

wack70

02-01-07, 02:12 PM

OK, and do I have the steps correct? After going back to page 1 of this thread, I noticed you said 2 coats of Poly (but no more.) I was just wanting to know if since I am sanding and re-floating new joint compound, would I need to do anything different.

checklst

02-01-07, 02:21 PM

A quick observation regarding the Behr UPW... No matter how careful I was, I had a very hard time trying to get rid of roller marks. I tried the smaller 1/4" hard foam (smooth) rollers and a 3/16" synthetic traditional roller. The foam seemed to give better results, but still left some minimal roller marks. My next screen(s) using the remainder of the gallon I bought will be sprayed for this reason. The UPW covers well, but doesn't roll all that well IMO.

Hey WET1 you might try a wetting agent sometimes called an extender....it extends dry time(allows the surface more time to settle and smooth) but it's big attribute to me was it made the paint flow/roll much much better taking the hassle out of eliminating roller marks.

Lastly a comment on spraying......it requires more(technique) to apply spray paint, than rolling. Bottom line the difference in surface texture and smoothness the sprayer offers over the roller would not even come close to the cost of the sprayer or the time is takes to become efficient with it, or the extra prep time and clean up need to use it properly.

My best guess is, at any seating distance on my 110 diag screen with a 720 projector, that their would be NO discernable picture quality difference of the screen texture change. My basic for this comes from I have a 2x4' piece of polywall matt surface it has a vary vary fine matt surface, this poly matt is much finer and more even surface than can be produced with a hand sprayer. When I place Poly on the painted projection screen I can not see a difference in quality at any seating distance.

This is why I advocate that the only difference in spray vers roller is not in the QUALITY of the PICTURE but a spray system has a speed advantage in large JOBS, like whole house painting, the time it takes for set up and cleaning would be a lot longer for a small screen vers a roller and for NO apparent screen quality difference.

My advice is if you HAVE USE for a sprayer other than a screen (I have many rental properties) and have painted many mean hundreds of gal over the last 25 years, a sprayer is a great investment is time saving.

Just a thought...............hear is a screen shot of rolled surface & the Matt Polywall. Their are 2 coats kilz's, 600 grit sanding between coats, 2 coats bright white(eggshell hardness) Wetting agent used... with a 1000 grit sand after first coat and no sanding on the top coat. I used a tack cloth wipe down after each sanding(REAL IMPORTANT) make sure you to do the small things like tack wipe down.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v108/checklst/PICT01161.jpg

Hope this helps a little: checklst

PS Tiddler I really like your paint solution, this is beacuse it's SIMPLE and shows a vary good quality results,screen shots/test results. I have not tried it but I might in the future, it meets all of my Kiss requirements. :)

wack70

02-01-07, 02:24 PM

I've got the PJ mounted in place, so I can test it after the 1st coat. Anything I should look for in the 1st coat that would warrant a 2nd coat?

wack70

02-01-07, 04:03 PM

Does anyone know if Kilz "Premium" will work just as well as Kilz 2? The local Home Depot didn't carry the Kilz 2 in a quart size, so I got the Premium b/c it was also water-based like the Kilz 2 and the HD paint counter guy said that the main diff. between the two was the amount of white pigment - the Premium has more so it's whiter than Kilz 2... maybe a good choice for tinting?

checklst

02-01-07, 06:23 PM

I've got the PJ mounted in place, so I can test it after the 1st coat. Anything I should look for in the 1st coat that would warrant a 2nd coat?

Wack70 I'm sure the second top coat is a little over kill.........but my first coat had a couple vary slight roller marks on the screen(drying to fast) so I had just enough for a secod coat and added a wetting agent, second coat went on beautifully. :)

checklst

02-01-07, 08:10 PM

Thanks for the kind words and support checklst.

What are you using for a screen now?

Did you see TeamSpeed's DIY Registry (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=785709) thread?

It's a good thread and could use a bump! ;)

The first screen was a polywall matt cut from a 5x10 sheet but I messed up the mounting (glued it on a frame)and it had bad waves, so I nixed it for a painted screen, but I still have a 2x4 piece I use as a bench mark.

The screen paint I used was Ralph Loren Tackroom White,eggshell hardness, I usually use Glidden's top line paint but on that day the Home Depot paint guy was being anal and would not mix the RL code to the G paint. The only reason I like top line Glidden is how it flows off the roller and I like it's coverage. RL paint is made by Gildden from G's top line base(RL is a marketing Co, but they supply their own color mix's)

I believe a qt of RL pure white base eggshell hardness had a drop of indigo blue and a drop of burnt amber....if I am remembering correct , I don't have the can anymore. The blue makes the white brighter, and since I run with my projector on Cool temp mode, the blue in that small amount was not a worry to me. I thought it might push blue until I saw the drop of burnt amber(brown) go in ..............Sorry but I picked a color based on eye ball alone, Next time you are in HD pick up RL's chip and compare it to other brands chip and you'll see.......what I have a hard time describing Bright creamy white with a rich thick apearance.

I will take a few new shots this weekend, mine are getting old. I started to do a 480P, 720P upscale(Oppo), 720 up scale Tosh HD DVD,1080I HD and then full HD DVD 720P of the same movie(Batman Begins) but I have just been so busy...............keeping my fingers crossed for this weekend.

I have not had the need for a gray screen yet, I have total control of ambient light, lighting fixtures in my HT, and my Projector has a vary nice black, but I am thinking of your mix as a test just so I could bring up the house light a little more and keep the on screen picture quality you see in the last picture below. The room was much brighter than it shows on the digital camera.

Hears is a screen shot, RL wall color shot, and a movie shot as well hopefully after this weekend a few HD DVD can be added.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v108/checklst/88050192.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v108/checklst/PICT1111.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v108/checklst/PICT0032.jpg

Thanks for listening. :)

bud16415

02-02-07, 10:11 AM

Todd

I like the way you are thinking.

Would it be possible to first make 3 samples of just the single pigments in the UPW and test them for RGB.

Based on the tested RGB numbers the test sends back could you then numerically compute a mix rate of the three. I’m not sure if it would take a calculus or not to do this but basically each separate pigmented mix should have a value in each of the RGB columns. Simple adding the 3 sets of number should give you the results of the 1:1:1 ratio and based around those numbers you could compute what ratio of each group it would take so the resulting addition of numbers would come out all the same.

If not calculus then we could just randomly try mixes in different volumes and by trial and error see the result then confirm that with actual paint tests.

Not sure I explained that as good as I could have.

bud16415

02-02-07, 12:28 PM

A spread sheet should be a good tool to do the what-if’s in and if prof55 tests those 9 examples you will not only have the basic pigment data but a few of the what-if’s as known real confirmed data points to plug in the mathematical equivalent and see if you get the same result.

What you will have to do is say there will be some mixture of all 3 and the total mixture has to equal 100% “always” what will vary is the percent of each but the total always has to be 100% so if you find you need less blue say. You don’t just reduce the blue but you add back in the additional red and green to get to 100%.

Because this is FnEasy and most of your cost after you buy all the paints will be postage and most of prof55’s time will be in setting up to do it. Why not give half of each sample a coat of the Flat Poly also and have him check RGB on both halves. Your other data on the grays seem like the poly changed the RGB just a little. Just a thought and I don’t think the poly will change the percent makeup of the RGB’s just shift them a little. Just a thought.

I’m not sure what camp I’m in I have been thrown out of most of them already. I think I’m going to see if I can get in the bright white screen camp. All this snow has given me a idea. :eek:

bud16415

02-02-07, 12:36 PM

I hate to ask but while you are at it….. could we send him a yellow oxide / UPW sample made the same way. I think we might already have the RGB data on UPW LB gray around here someplace.

If the spread sheet idea works with the 3 pigment approach it should work on a LB YO also. And in the rare event its impossible to get neutral from the 3 (RGB) pigment mix and we needed to add yellow you will have that pigment already isolated.

I knew we should have worked on the genome project instead “much simpler” :D

bud16415

02-02-07, 03:18 PM

Actually what you do is add untinted UPW to reduce the colorant.

That will work. The only problem I see is that we then assume UPW has a perfect neutral balance and we know it doesn’t. When you make all your mixes by using dilution the amount of UPW per unit of paint mix is now a variable. When you do it by both increasing quantity of one while decreasing the amount of the other two the UPW per pigment ratio never changes. I think…… :confused: ...... :D

prof55

02-02-07, 04:42 PM

Todd: I don't know if you separated the data on your previous samples, but here's an example showing #3,4,5 and 6 (the LB/YO series). The same technique should work for the RGB:

http://home.mchsi.com/~gstoner/pics/comp1.jpg

Brewed

02-02-07, 08:17 PM

I have benefitted greatly from this site and all of those who have worked hard. And I offer my thanks.

But hasn't this thread just gone from FnEasy to FnHard?

I stopped by to ask if I screwed up by not not sanding my wall to "baby butt" smooth. Looks like I need to hire a FnEasyChemist soon.

But I'll keep reading.

mindgam3

02-02-07, 09:45 PM

The development of a tint formula is not easy but it is possible. In the end though the use of an RGB tint formula will be no more difficult than the Lamp Black and Yellow Oxide. The paint will still be an easily rolled flat latex paint with a matte poly top coat. The beauty of a forum like this is that you don't have to hire a chemist. Just wait for the hoplessly obsessed to figure it out and then just use it.

Why do you think you screwd up?

What is the benefit of using a RBT tint formula?

phamdinhnguyen

02-05-07, 03:26 AM

FnEasy Quick Notes:
Start with a smooth surface.
Use 3/16" nap synthetic white paint rollers to apply all paint layers.
Apply all paints in roller width vertical strips.
Blend the strip boundaries by working across the gap and back again.
Apply two coats of a flat white primer.
Apply two coats of flat gray or white latex.
Allow paint to dry completely (approx 12 hrs).
Switch to a clean roller for the polyurethane.
Stir the polyurethane before using.
Roll slowly and lightly when applying the polyurethane.
Apply two coats of Behr Matte Polyurethane #780.

Do you think if any improvements will be made in replacing the "two coats of flat gray or white latex" with product from "Goo Systems". From their site "Screen Goo is a specially formatted, highly reflective acrylic paint, designed specifically for the video projection industry. Screen Goo acrylic paint allows one to transform any smooth paintable surface into a high performance projection screen."

Your thought is truly appreciated!

Thanks,
phamdinhnguyen

checklst

02-05-07, 10:10 AM

If you use screen Goo (nothing wrong with it) just paint an extra test board and put the clear on it....... as a test.

Anytime you are adding a clear/matt (hard finish top coat) over any screen paint a test board would be wise........ :)

Wet1

02-05-07, 11:49 AM

While I think you might be going too far in-depth for the purposes of THIS thread (regarding the RGB mixes), I find this to be very interesting.

Keep up the good work Todd!

blindbartimaeus

02-05-07, 01:24 PM

Of course all the information required to implement an FnEasy Solution will be maintained in the first few posts. The problem is most people tend to jump to the last post and may miss the summary info up front.

You got me. I usually start at the end and restart to catch the other details

NJScorio

02-05-07, 10:40 PM

wack70

02-06-07, 12:39 AM

Hey WET1 you might try a wetting agent sometimes called an extender....it extends dry time(allows the surface more time to settle and smooth) but it's big attribute to me was it made the paint flow/roll much much better taking the hassle out of eliminating roller marks.

checklst - I finished my 106" screen this weekend (directly on a textured wall that was prepped with sanding and floating w/ new mud). I put on 3 coats Kilz Premium (3rd coat went on after I had to fill in some dips I missed) and then 2 coats of a custom tinted mix of Behr UPW. I gave it a test run after the tinted Behr UPW dried completely and the image was great. I then put on the initial coat of Matte Poly, let it dry, saw some incomplete coverage then added a 2nd coat. As soon as I started up the PJ I noticed vertical roller marks. I'm guessing it's the Poly? Can I put on another coat of tinted Behr UPW mixed w/ an extender over the top Poly coat and stick with that or can you not put a flat paint on top of the Poly? I did notice the diff. in whites w/ the Poly, so I hate to trash it - but after just watching Flyboys and seeing those vert. lines, I can't keep my eyes off them...

jimwhite

02-06-07, 07:36 AM

now this is interesting..... it would seem that with suitable standards, maybe 3 - a white, light grey and dark grey (3 points for gamma), we could calibrate a scanner "reasonably close for DIY work.... keep us posted !!! I have access to a large pair of Pantone color chip books at work :D

:cool:

Wet1

02-06-07, 08:16 AM

I read elsewhere that the HD1000U (the projector I'm looking at purchasing, and painting this screen for...) has problems with greens, and that is something due to the design. The complaint I read recently is that during the Super Bowl, the grass looked "pea green". The Lamp Black / Yellow Oxide mix has a green deficiency, so will that be a bad choice to pair up with that projector? I was looking at the Sherwin Williams "Gray Screen" (199 203 203) which the numbers appear more balanced, and no gree deficiency. Would this be a better choice? I read comments about how some paints are easier to roll without leaving marks. Where does Sherwin Williams stand in comparison to Behr in this way?
NJ,
FWIW, I have a HD1000U and recently painted my screen using the tinted UPW with the poly T/C. I've read the same comments regarding the pea green issues and I tend to think it must effect some units to a greater degree than others. I don't see this issue on my PJ (using this screen). Although, I don't think this screen has much to do with me seeing or not seeing the pea greens, I think it has much more to do with the out of the OTB calibrations of the unit. That's not to say a screen can't influence the picture, because it certainly can, but this screen is pretty neutral so the image you see with it should be very representative of what the PJ is displaying.

Also keep in mind when you're talking about RGB numbers so close as we're talking about (say 201 197 202 for example), you'd likely never be able to notice a very slight dip or boost in any one color. I believe you have to increase or decrease a number by about 5 before the human eye can start to detect a change... so keep that in mind when comparing these numbers. Furthermore, looking to see how neutral the color is (compared to D65 or C) is probably just as significant, if not more so, than the RGB numbers. Again, this mix is pretty neutral (it's right between D65 and C if I recall correctly).

Either way, I think you'll find this screen works very well with the HD1000U. I'm expecting the JVC RS1 I ordered within the next few weeks as well. Initially I plan on testing it out on this screen before I make a final decision regarding what I'll use for a screen with that PJ... but based on what I've seen with the HD1000U on this screen, I wouldn't be surprised if RS1 is stunning on this screen. If so, I might try a metallic version of this mix.

Regarding roller marks... The UPW will leave roller marks if you're not careful. If you use the techniques Todd (Tiddler) has detailed in another thread, they shouldn't be much of an issue. I haven't used the True Value paint so I can't comment on it, but the SW paint is certainly easier to work with than the Behr UPW. I can tell you I won't roll another screen if I can help it. Spraying just gives much more uniform results and should be your first choice if you have access to the equipment.

Wet1

02-06-07, 08:46 AM

checklst - I finished my 106" screen this weekend (directly on a textured wall that was prepped with sanding and floating w/ new mud). I put on 3 coats Kilz Premium (3rd coat went on after I had to fill in some dips I missed) and then 2 coats of a custom tinted mix of Behr UPW. I gave it a test run after the tinted Behr UPW dried completely and the image was great. I then put on the initial coat of Matte Poly, let it dry, saw some incomplete coverage then added a 2nd coat. As soon as I started up the PJ I noticed vertical roller marks. I'm guessing it's the Poly? Can I put on another coat of tinted Behr UPW mixed w/ an extender over the top Poly coat and stick with that or can you not put a flat paint on top of the Poly? I did notice the diff. in whites w/ the Poly, so I hate to trash it - but after just watching Flyboys and seeing those vert. lines, I can't keep my eyes off them...
If I had to make a guess, I'd say the roller marks are most likely in the tinted UPW. Kilz2 and the poly seem to roll and flow out better, so that's the only reason I suspect it's in the UPW. With that said, it's possible to get roller marks with any of the above. Keep in mind the poly increases the gain of the screen... and will also magnify defects such as roller marks, regardless of which layer they are in. It's very possible the marks were there before the poly was applied, and you just didn't see them on the flat/matte base coating.

Since the rollers marks are there regardless of which layer they are in, I think your only choice is to remove them since it will drive you nuts knowing they're there. I'd take a orbital sander over the screen (fine paper such as 150 or less) and try to get the entire surface level again. In doing this you may of may not break through the color layer. If you do, you'll have to reapply at least one coat of the tinted UPW (and this might be a good idea either way). Just make sure you don't have any roller marks when you do it next time! Now that you have a good base again, go back and reapply a layer of poly over the top.

While I'm thinking about it... I'm not crazy about applying a second layer of poly IF you had good (and smooth) coverage on the first layer. You only need one layer to get the gain and protection benefits. Adding a second coat only increases the chances of sealing in more contaminants (such as hairs or other debris). At some point too much poly could discolor the screen a little and also cause optical issues. For these reasons I'd suggest only using one coat of poly IF you have a good uniform coating on the first pass, if not then by all means apply a second coat. If for some reason you feel a third coat is required, I'd suggest running over the screen with a orbital sander (fine paper) first before doing so. Obviously you'll need to wipe the surface down before reapplying the poly. Sanding will hopefully remove any defects that are a concern and also keep the poly from becoming too thick.

I'd also suggest using those smooth foam 1/4" hot dog rollers. They seem to do a better job of keeping roller marks at bay and also tend to keep the the amount applied to a minimum if used properly.

Good luck! :)

NJScorio

02-06-07, 09:54 AM

Wet1

Thanks for the info (in this topic, and in the one about the green push). I think I will give either the UPW Behr mix in this topic a shot, or the SW Grey Screen. Being my first screen, and my first experience with rollers, I'm looking for the paint that rolls on with the least potential for marks, while being a netural grey.

wack70

02-06-07, 11:35 AM

Wet1

02-06-07, 12:12 PM

Wet1 - thanks for the suggestions. I had suspected the roller marks might be in the UPW layer and not in the Poly layer, but I didn't think about the Poly intensifying the roller marks... My thoughts were to finely sand down the Poly layer (at least enough to help a new coat of UPW adhere well) and apply the new UPW coat with both the extender mixed in AND using the foam roller. I have access to a professional grade airless paint rig, but I hate the thought of prepping the area again for the mess they make, not to mention that a 1 qt. can of paint will get used up by priming the rig alone... What type of sprayer did you use?
You might very well be able to remove the roller marks w/o having to reapply the UPW. Keep in mind the roller marks are a BUILD UP of paint and need to be removed before adding anything over the top. Use the orbital sander as suggested and remove as little as possible across the surface to just rid the defects. Don't use your bare hands to do the sanding as your fingers will sand unevenly. If you must do it by hand, use a block or a board to keep everything flat. Keep the sander flat at all times!

For the tinted UPW screen I just did, I rolled it based on everyone's suggestions. Like I said, next time I'll spray. ;) As careful as I was it still has some very slight roller marks in it. I have a professional grade airless sprayer and a HVLP / compressor rig as well. As you noted, the airless sprayer will require some priming and use more to feed the system. They don't do as good of a job as a HVLP gun, but they certainly work far better than a roller! I've painted many cars with my HVLP gun and I'm pretty good with it, so given the choice I'd stick with it over an airless rig. Either way, you're going to have some over-spray. :( Then again, I'd rather cover everything in the room and mask the area than be distracted by roller marks every time I look at the screen. :D

As I mentioned before, if you can avoid having to reapply the UPW, I think you might be fine with just rolling the poly (but be careful!)

Also, in the future paint a piece of 1/8" to 1/4" substrate and attach it to the wall. This way you can do all your work where ever and not have to worry about over-spray or sanding in your nice room. A piece of coated hard board is only $9 at HD. This also makes it very easy to restore the room later should you need to. ;)

Wet1

02-06-07, 02:24 PM

Yes I read your BRPI and it was helpful. I've tried your method as described and also the 'hot dog' roller only method (which seemed to work better for me). If anything I suspect in my case too much paint was being laid down or loaded up in the roller causing roller marks. I didn't end up with bad RM, but they are slightly visible. Since I have the spray equipment and am comfortable with the use of the equipment, I'm not going to bother rolling another screen. This is not to say it can't be done (as you and plenty of others have demonstrated)... I just believe you can get much better results with a properly setup spray system. Look at it this way, have you ever seen an automotive finish be applied with a roller? :D

Yes, I've sanded plenty of latex paint with an orbital sander (way more than I care to think about). As long as it's cured, you keep the sander moving quickly, and don't heat the surface up, it works fine. Let it heat the paint up and you end up with a mess. While I've done plenty of wet sanding, I've never tried it on latex. It makes way too much mess for my liking and I've never found a need for doing it as an orbital has always worked fine for me (if used as I suggested above).

When I say airless rig, I'm referring to what is considered more of a commercial HD type sprayer which is often used by professionals. They typically are two piece systems (separate gun and pump) and often have 1/2hp pumps or more. While Wagner makes some better grade products, the little hand-held unit MM has will not work for paints which have higher viscosities (such as these). I believe Wagner also makes hand-helds which might work for these thicker paints, but I haven't used one of those models. I suspect those would work for small jobs like a screen, but again I haven't used them so I cant say how the spray pattern looks or if they do indeed handle high viscosity paints. Then again, you could always thin the paint...

Brewed

02-06-07, 08:45 PM

While I appreciate all the advice being given regarding the application of the paint I am a little disturbed at the direction this is going. So I would like to ask a couple of questions to try to determine how such an easy application has gone wrong for a few people.

For those that seem to having trouble rolling a flat latex paint like UPW without getting roller marks did you read the Basic Roller Painting Instructions (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8235082&&#post8235082) provided in the Beginner's Guide and linked in the first post of this thread?

For those rolling the latex paints did you use a 3/16" or 1/4" np white synthetic roller? Once you had spread the vertical strip of paint did you roll up and down and pass back over the 1/4" gap between the current strip and the last.? Is it possible you worked the paint more than just enough to spread it and go across the gap and back once?

Wet1 have you ever tried sanding latex paint with an orbital sander? Anytime I have it just rolls the latex up into little balls and either does nothing or makes little circular gouges in the surface. Have you ever tried wet sanding latex paint?

Wet1 when you say and air less sprayer is that one like the Wagner sprayer that MM just demonstrated?

Ok. Off topic I suppose. But here goes.

First time PJ owner so I painted my wall essentially black and left an 84" hole for the screen. Two coats of oil Kilz. Roller nap was probably too hairy but I was thrilled.

Expanded screen size to 90" (good enough for me) and applied two more coats of oil Kilz because I needed to cover the black expansion.

Next step was two coats of tinted UPW with the "hot dog" roller followed by a coat of #780 poly. A week apart. I did the poly Sunday and have no feedback on that move yet. Super Bowl looked great. Every rain drop...........

My point is that I found that you can go back seven strips or even the whole screen with the hot dog and roll down ever so lightly with a dryish hot dog to smooth out your work. Top to bottom stroke and don't hesitate.

I also found that using the hot dog, you need to load it up and go for the middle of the strip first and spread it up and down from there before you smooth it with a one stroke pass.

I hope this helps someone. Anyone.

Brewed

02-06-07, 09:33 PM

Tiiddler,

Your last post preceded mine so I'll respond to that one.

Nice rant, BTW.

Yes it does require a double dip to get a strip onto a 45" pass with the hot dog. Hell, I bought the thing because of you!....hehehe. It doesn't hold any paint at all.

But I've painted many multi paneled doors with oil based paint in my life with the goal of zero brush marks. Ain't easy but IF YOU PAY ATTENTION it gets done and nobody notices I've always worked off the "W" for walls but not for this project. I've followed your suggestions with great success.

But I have been going back for a final "smooth down" while it's still wet. I realize from my reading that it won't fly for a metalic paint, it works fine for flat. Are others just not paying enough attention to their work?

wack70

02-06-07, 10:07 PM

OK, hopefully this will end this sidebar and get the thread back on track -- I'm sure the reason I ended up with roller marks is b/c I was anxious to get it done B4 the Superbowl and I was pretty beat down from painting the walls & ceiling last weekend (not to mention running cables, installing a platform, brining in theater chairs, etc., etc.). I probably rolled my gap-covering strokes over some of the previous vert. strips but thought that a quick roll-over would smooth it out... wrong. I'm probably just going to do a light sanding on the Poly coat and re-apply the tinted UPW with more care this time as Tiddler is suggesting. Like he says: A bit of reading and maybe a little practice is all that is required. I read all the tips & instructions, and but I think the key ingredient is patience...

checklst

02-06-07, 11:17 PM

Let me just add a little something hear. I painted my screens final coat with a paint added Retarder. Water can be add to extend dry time, but it only extends it a little....unless you add a lot of water but that thins out the pigment to much.

A retarder is a additive that (coats)the water molecules, slowing down the dry time(evaporation) Some of the most common retarders are Glycerin, Propylene glycol ect............................without getting to technical and playing loose with the chemical makeup you are adding layer over the h2o to slow drying..........extended dry time also helps smooth/settle the surface.

The big benefit for most of us is it allows the use of the a "normal type" 3/16 or 1/4 in nap roller like Tiddler recommends, The one I used was a white 1/4 nap synthetic these have huge benefits over the (hot dog) type THEY hold a lot more PAINT. Anything that gets you done quicker and off the surface is better in my book.........I rolled my 110diag surface in quarters.......and at the half way mark I rolled back over the entire half with an extremely light stroke, at fully done, I could not see any roller marks so I was finished(took all of 8 min to roll the screen) AT the TIME I was worried it might get SAG as the dry time approached 1 hour it was shiny shiny wet for that length of time. Next time I would on use 2oz of the retarder, I used 4oz to a qt of paint.

Bottom line use the roller Tiddler recommends(normal type)but still a high quality type, and get your dry time extended and STOP PULLING out your hair...LOL..... save that hair for the projectors color calibration......hehehehe. :)

Wet1

02-07-07, 10:20 AM

Todd,

Maybe I wasn't clear enough regarding my spraying comments above, if not I apologize.

These paints can certainly be rolled with good results, it just takes patience, practice, and very conscientious work with the roller. Another thing that makes all the difference in the world is proper lighting (if working indoors)... this is true if rolling or spraying. I only suggest spraying if you have access to the equipment because it's easier, faster, and better results can be obtained. By no means is spraying a 'must' for laying down this screen... although I still think spraying is almost a must to get superior results laying down high metallic finishes (but that's not the case with the FnEasy system).

As I mentioned before, I did try using the 3/16" roller and the hot-dog roller. Both worked, but I found the hot-dog only seemed to work better for me. I also found I did have to double dip the hot-dog to lay enough paint for each pass, but that didn't seem to be a big deal. In the end I still ended up with slight roller marks (very slight), but I'm not sure it they came from the hot dog or the 3/16" method. Without a doubt, they could have been worked out had I noticed them at the time of application (hence the recommendation for excellent lighting). Either way, in the future I'll just stick to spraying since I do have the equipment to spray and I would suggest others spray as well IF they have the equipment. I only rolled this screen because I wanted to give the FnEasy system a try w/o using more advanced methods and I'm very impressed with the results in general.

The reason I didn't bother with doing a more advanced mix on this screen, is because I didn't need or want the extra brightness that comes with those mixes. This screen is being used in our BR with a HD1000U (1500 lumens) PJ and the screen is only 80". With so much light output on such a small screen, it doesn't make much sense to use a more advanced mix for this application which is why I thought I'd give FnEasy a try. ;)

Again, I'm sorry if I gave anyone the impression spraying this screen is a must, that is not the case at all. :)

NJScorio

02-07-07, 11:31 AM

I'm new to this (so this may be a stupid question), but after each layer of UWP, or whatever you use, should you take one of those sanding sponges and just wipe down the screen? Wouldn't this help with roller marks? Would this have any adverse effect?

NJScorio

02-07-07, 12:05 PM

Ah, yes, that post is what got me thinking. He only mentions sanding inbetween the layers of Kilz 2, not between the layers of gray. I was just wondering if there was any reason it might not be a good idea to do so. I am just looking to avoid any roller marks.

NJScorio

02-07-07, 12:23 PM

Based on MM's recommendations for the Kilz2 you could use the same approach with the UPW but as he suggeste with the Kilz2 plan on "3" coats to compensate for the sanding losses.

In my experience with UPW it smooths out pretty well assuming you get enough on and don't over work it. The results are a gentle orange peel type of surface. There is no stippling type texture like you see in my screen.

A very flat sandable primer like Kilz2 is a bit like putting on a very thin skim coat of mud. Then sanding it smooth and adding another two coat as MM has suggested. The result would be a very smooth primer white surface to apply you UPW to. Tha would avoid any additive build up of texture in the surface.

I actually plan on working with SW Gray Screen, as I like the RGB results, and my family (who is more famliar with paints than I am) loves SW. I read here that it also may be easier to apply.

While we are at it, I just have a quick question about rolling. After having done two verticle lines, with 1/4" gap in between, do you add any more paint when you go over the gap? How much should you work over that gap? Less than the initial verticle lines? (for instance, 2 up, 2 down)

NJScorio

02-07-07, 12:40 PM

I feel dense, but I just want to futher clarify that paragraph...

So you do 6 up and down strokes to paint a verticle line, perpendicular to the floor. Then 6 more up and down strokes to blenc back across the 1/4" onto the last strip....so you would be overlapping the last strip, correct? Is this part of the process a verticle line perpendicular to the floor, or lines on a slight angle to travel from one verticle line across to the other? Then another 6 up and down strokes (at slight angles) to move back to the last line, with the last stroke going up and down the entirety of that verticle line?

<^..^>Smokey Joe

02-07-07, 03:03 PM

Tiddler, the next time you are trying the top coat approach, grab some GLOSS clearcoat and then make a mix of the gloss and matt. With test strips of different ratios like 75% Gloss 25% Matt, 80%Gloss 20% matt and so on you will quickly be able to establish the perfect amount for viewing cone, reflective gain compromise.

You can do most of the tuning in daylight and narrow strips and looking at the angled reflective nature.

Think you might be pleasently surprised by the tuning and final effect ;)

Wet1

02-07-07, 03:43 PM

IMHO the real magic is taking place at the interface between the flat paint surface and the poly, not the surface sheen.
Please explain. I would tend to think it's simply the increased sheen causing the increase in gain. Sheen = reflectivity = gain = reduced viewing cone IMO.

NJScorio

02-07-07, 04:28 PM

Hello again....

More questions. As I said before, I'm thinking of SW Gray Screen + Behr Poly. I saw stevem991's images here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=741080&page=12&pp=30

Compairing the FnEasy UPW mix, w/ and w/o poly, and the same for SW GS. It appears there is very little difference between Gray Screen w/ and w/o Poly. Is there less of a difference as the shade of the screen gets darker? Or is the difference, some how, not showing up in the pictures?

Also, the projector he is using is 900 ANSI, 2000:1 CS. The one I'll be picking up is 1500 ANSI, 2500:1 CS. Would the added brightness increase the effect the poly has on the GS?

NJScorio

02-07-07, 04:56 PM

Okay....he is working with the IN72 (per his posts), and I'll be working with the HD1000U...which is funny, as I almost bought the IN72.

NJScorio

02-07-07, 05:17 PM

So, I could expect similar results as his test? Mainly I want to know if the Behr Poly makes a noticable difference on the GS, as I don't see a real difference in those pictures. Earlier in that thread someone mentioned how the Poly made the image look out of focus compaired to just GS. I see great results of the Poly on the UPW mix, and was hoping someone could confirm the same boost works with GS.

NJScorio

02-07-07, 06:05 PM

I would do the GS first. Use it for a while and see what you think. If you buy some poly and try it and don't like it you will have 3/4 gallon of Gray Screen to over coat it right.

Sound good! I guess I am getting ahead of myself. I just like to have every little detail planned out ahead of time. Plan your work, and work your plan.

<^..^>Smokey Joe

02-07-07, 08:23 PM

Tiddler, well you and wet1 are both right.

Both surfaces reflect light.

The first, or outer face reflects about 10% of the initial light. The second layer is different as it will depend upon the color, shade of grey or shiny silver that resides behind it.

That 10% on the top layer will reflect all light and is the same amount when using either Gloss or Matt.

To make sense of that statement, remember the difference between Gloss and Matt is where the light goes, not how much there is. The light value is the same.

What the top layer application is doing is recapaturing directionally the 10% initial light power the Matt and color effect of the base paint scatters and absorbs.

Of note, that 10% loss at the surface will mean that the following layers have 10% less light to work with. Oh and it is a log loss beyond that.

What I am working on is a an easy roller solution aswell, although I am using the pearl metallic still. The main difference is that I am using layers, rather than a one thickness mix as the other formulations do.

I am experimenting with greys right down to N4 level, but I think I will end up around the N6 area.

titch--

02-07-07, 09:30 PM

I read in this topic somewhere that someone used KILZ Premium instead of Kilz2, Im just wondering if thats acceptable?

thx

EDIT: Oh yeah I should say that Im going to just try the poly over the Kilz. If that makes a difference. :)

Wet1

02-08-07, 07:28 AM

I assume the Kilz premium is a flat white base. Any flat paint you choose is acceptable.
It's basically the same as the std Kilz, the premium just has a higher concentration of pigment.

wack70

02-08-07, 08:24 AM

I read in this topic somewhere that someone used KILZ Premium instead of Kilz2, Im just wondering if thats acceptable?

titch -- I bought and used the Kilz Premiuma and it worked fine. The Home Depot employee told me the only difference was that the Premium has more white pigment than Kilz 2 (as Wet1 said). I put on 2 coats, had to do some minor drywall mud filling on some dips that became apparent after the first 2 coats, then added a 3rd coat to cover up the mud spots.

titch--

02-08-07, 10:24 AM

Right on guys thanks for the replies.

Im going to get a quart (1's enough?)of it today, but first I have to do alittle mudding to smoothen of some of the drywall. Should have 2 coats up by friday's movie night. :) I watch a few movies this weekend and by the end of the weekend I'll get some polly up and see how that goes.

cheers

NJScorio

02-08-07, 01:17 PM

My question of the day:

Why is it that the UPW mix (202 197 203) appers lighter in pictures I've seen than the SW Gray Screen (199 203 203)?

bud16415

02-08-07, 01:29 PM

My question of the day:

Why is it that the UPW mix (202 197 203) appers lighter in pictures I've seen than the SW Gray Screen (199 203 203)?

Download a program like the one below. (Freeware) then you can type in RGB codes and compare colors at the same time on your monitor. That’s not saying your monitor is correct but you can compare.

Visual Color Picker 2.6

Looking at pictures of screen shots etc are way off and wont work for comparisons, IMO.

NJScorio

02-08-07, 01:34 PM

Download a program like the one below. (Freeware) then you can type in RGB codes and compare colors at the same time on your monitor. That’s not saying your monitor is correct but you can compare.

Visual Color Picker 2.6

Looking at pictures of screen shots etc are way off and wont work for comparisons, IMO.

Thanks, I'll do that when I get home from work.

wack70

02-08-07, 02:31 PM

Im going to get a quart (1's enough?)of it today, but first I have to do alittle mudding to smoothen of some of the drywall. Should have 2 coats up by friday's movie night. :) I watch a few movies this weekend and by the end of the weekend I'll get some polly up and see how that goes.

I used up the entire quart of Kilz Premium putting down 3 coats. My screen size is 92" x 52" or 106" diagonal (plus 2 widths of 2" blue painter's tape for masking). As I did, you might see some additional imperfections on the "smoothed" wall once you put on the 2nd coat of Kilz. I suspect its the wet sheen of the fresh paint that allowed me to see the couple of dips/scrapes after sanding the mud. I had opened up an adjacent window's blinds that allowed some light to rake across the surface and I saw the missed spots. I filled them in, sanded and put on one last coat of Kilz, then the custom tinted UPW and Poly went on... I will say that the Poly definitely increases gain - no more dull whites like with the tinted UPW alone.

If anyone is interested, I'll post some pics as soon as I think of a good method for adhering the fabric-wrapped frame to the wall - it's just hanging like an empty picture frame right now, but I would like it to be flat against the wall (it's is slightly twisted/warped).

titch--

02-08-07, 04:41 PM

Pics are always welcome. :)

Im just going to start with alittle sanding the drywall that I have up now, then Im going to put up alittle mud in some spots. Hopefully after alittle more sanding it will be smooth as a babies bum. heh

prof55

02-08-07, 04:46 PM

wack70

02-08-07, 09:22 PM

I used the Behr UPW 060/030 custom tint w/ 2 coats Poly you suggested -- I think it looks great. I framed it with 1x4 covered in black wool (sort of a mix between felt and velvet).

wack70

02-08-07, 09:25 PM

Im just going to start with alittle sanding the drywall that I have up now, then Im going to put up alittle mud in some spots. Hopefully after alittle more sanding it will be smooth as a babies bum. heh

The sanding made one heck of a mess, especially since I had just painted the room the weekend before to a dark burgundy color (white powder on dark burgundy :(

I believe someone (maybe Wet1?) suggested using tack cloth to wipe down the sanded surface. I didn't have any on hand, so I used a damp sponge to clean the surface before priming.

Wet1

02-08-07, 09:26 PM

I believe someone (maybe Wet1?) suggested using tack cloth to wipe down the sanded surface. I didn't have any on hand, so I used a damp sponge to clean the surface before priming.
That will work fine! :)

Wet1

02-08-07, 09:38 PM

The sanding made one heck of a mess, especially since I had just painted the room the weekend before to a dark burgundy color (white powder on dark burgundy :(

BTW, If your walls are flat or matte, I wouldn't try cleaning up the mess (on you newly painted walls) with a cloth or even wipe it off in any way... you'll probably just end up with all kinds of white smudges everywhere you wipe on those dark walls (unless they have some good gloss to them). Clean them with a soft brush attachment on your vacuum-cleaner wand. It will take sometime, but this should take it right up w/o making a mess of your newly painted walls. ;)

titch--

02-08-07, 11:15 PM

wack70

02-08-07, 11:38 PM

BTW, If your walls are flat or matte, I wouldn't try cleaning up the mess (on you newly painted walls) with a cloth or even wipe it off in any way... you'll probably just end up with all kinds of white smudges everywhere you wipe on those dark walls (unless they have some good gloss to them). Clean them with a soft brush attachment on your vacuum-cleaner wand. It will take sometime, but this should take it right up w/o making a mess of your newly painted walls. ;)

Now he tells me... :rolleyes:

wack70

02-08-07, 11:42 PM

Well the sanding went good. I just wanted to start with a nice and flat surface. In between sanding and cleaning off the mess I grabbed a spare light so I could see the walls alot better, and oh my god is my wall ever bad. lol Its not flat that much, you can see 2 spots where the studs are very easy. Oh well Im going to put on the Kilz and experiment and see what the out come is.

I got a question for you guys. Is polly easy to sand off? I was thinking of trying that sometime this weekend.

thx

Yes, as soon as I opened up the blinds on a bright Texas afternoon, man you could see the imperfections -- and I had thought I was done w/ the mud and sanding... but I am glad I did it b/c being a perfectionist, I would hate to start all over once I had it primed/painted/poly'd. I think it would have only affected off-angle viewers, but my personal seat location is smack-dab in the middle. :cool:

titch--

02-11-07, 02:52 PM

Your in Ottawa right? Have you tried Rona? Thats where I found it here. :)

titch--

02-11-07, 08:40 PM

Damn that sucks

kenyee

02-12-07, 03:09 PM

Tiddler:

I think I can save you some of the guinea pig work.

My wall had Glidden Gripper primer on it. I'm surprised the off-axis sheen was so high on it (and that you could fix this by adding poly to it!!! :-), but that would explain why I could see my wall imperfections so easily. The Glidden primer did have close to a satin sheen to my eyes. The GTI N8 I have on it is *MUCH* flatter, so I don't see any reflections off it at all, even off axis.

The one nice thing about the Glidden primer was that the off-axis sheen gave really good off-center viewing angles; the image looked the same even at 45 degree angles. I projected an AX100 on it and the only tweak I had to do was to cut the color intensity in the menu or everything seemed too oversaturated.
I've attached an image I took of a football game on it and an image of The Return of the King (when Theodin gets killed by the wraith). As you can see the fleshtones look great.

edit: ok...now they're attached...da** 800x600 size limit...

ken

kenyee

02-13-07, 09:50 AM

It rolled out great. I really like how Glidden rolls out and hate Behr despite them being the same company...actually, Behr rolls out smooth as well, but can't cover for beans :-)

As for Glidden Gripper being a good solution for a white screen, I'd say only if you have a relatively flat surface. I noticed that it showed a *lot* more imperfections than the flat gray I have on it now. If you've ever seen horsehair plaster, you'd know it's a lot less smooth than sheetrock. The bumps were visible w/ Gripper, but are not w/ the flat paint, so my conclusion is that you should stay away from satin/gloss paints for projector walls that are not smooth.

As for color rendition, it showed too much red (lips were overly red, faces were overly red) but it may be because it amplified everything. I had to turn the default color saturation down by -10 on my AX100. In contrast, the flat gray needed no adjustments after I reset it to factory settings.

So the short answer is yes if you need white, but if your projector has enough output, a gray screen truly is better.

Wet1

02-14-07, 09:50 AM

Nice work Todd... on all three of your projects. :)

KristiSwallow

02-14-07, 11:04 AM

Hi all,

I stumbled upon this thread a few days a go and am watching it very closely. My Husband and I are in the process of building an HT in the basement and we'll probably go with a white FnEasy screen for our PLV-Z5 PJ. I can't wait to see how these two primers compair to the UPW.

bud16415

02-14-07, 02:39 PM

Mr. Swallow is indeed a lucky man. :eek:

KristiSwallow

02-14-07, 03:04 PM

;)

keithbanford

02-14-07, 06:45 PM

Hi I am trying to get my hands on the behr Polyurethane No. 780 but it seams like you cant get it in canada. Is there any other product I could use?

titch--

02-15-07, 03:32 PM

Im not trying to steal the topic, well maybe for a minute. :)

Im just wondering if anyone here trying any of the paints in this forum is using a Panny AE900? I just wanna know what your findings and best results were?

thx

kenyee

02-15-07, 04:21 PM

tiddler:
One thing the extra bumps in Glidden Gripper will give you is better off-axis performance IMHO.
The tradeoff is you can see the texture (amplified by the satin sheen) if you're too close...

titch--

02-15-07, 08:19 PM

does anyone know of any other clear matte polyurethane other then behr because I cant seem to get it here in canada saskatchewan

I found it here in Regina, if your around here.

keithbanford

02-15-07, 10:37 PM

man I live in regina!!

I went to both home depots and talked to the paint guys and both told me that they dont carry that product, but Ill go back and take a good look
thanks

muzz

02-15-07, 11:10 PM

As tiddler stated, I got a Qt of the 780 @ HD, and after looking around(without luck), I asked the woman where the Faux finishes were, she pointed to them, and sure enough, there was the 780.

titch--

02-16-07, 12:45 AM

Go to the HD in the east end. When your standing in front of the display of all the colour samples. Its just to the right of the display. Its will be about waist high. Saw it today. 1 quart for $19.

Cant miss it. I wouldnt even ask them about it.

Edit: what kind of projector you running and what did you end up using for paint?

keithbanford

02-16-07, 08:36 AM

I have the hd70 projector and I used the sterling behr paint 1050

titch--

02-16-07, 02:18 PM

Keith did you get a chance to get/find the poly?

For paint (just starting to experiment) Im using just the Kilz primer. I must say that it is better then what was on my drywall from the start. I thought that I could get away with just using a 6'' finish roller, but that didnt work that great. As it left acouple roller makers, but as I said that Im experimenting still with paints and my knowledge of painting itself. :)

One thing that I did yesterday that improved the picture some, was I covered the first and second row of ceiling tiles with black cloth. Here is a pic of it.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e220/titch--/Home%20Theater/Hometheaterscreenwall.jpg

Im going to do acouple more rows in the future.

titch--

02-16-07, 04:01 PM

Oh yeah I meant to ask if you needed any help with anything Keith?

Im interested in seeing other in home projectors in action. :D

titch--

02-16-07, 06:21 PM

I have looked over the basic/advanced roller instructions. Its just only used the 6'' foam roller because thats all I had bought so far. :) Thought if I put on enough paint on that roller that I might be able to get away with it. I guess that aint the case. lol

Ive been only doing the Kilz by its self so far, because I would like to get a good week or so with it before I change types of paints. Ive got a feeling that this is going to be along process. heh

Im just moreless going to try a few different paint options on the drywall until I find something that I really like, where Ill then proceed to buy some kind of removable screen to put my final paint on it.

If you look on the pic Ive posted you can see where 2 studs show though the wall. Its kind of a pain, but I can live with it for now.

keithbanford

02-16-07, 06:37 PM

yes Titch I did find the polyurethane. Thanks alot I was starting to get frustrated.

I dont think I need any help yet. we will see how it turns out. Im doing mine on a 4x8 pice of mdf but I think I would like a bit bigger later on if this turns out good.

what kind of projector are you using? and what kind of speakers are those?

titch--

02-16-07, 07:11 PM

For a screen wall I was looking at something from the restore. They had a nice 4x8 chalk board there for like $20. Its was super flat with some nice trim around it. The only thing that was holding me back, was that it was only 4x8. Wanted something alittle bigger.

Im running a Panny AE900. Those are Exodus Audio kitLCR for a center and a kit641 for mains. They are just mdf right now till its gets alittle nicer out then Im going to something with them.

bud16415

02-19-07, 03:08 PM

Before I get too carried away with this . . . is there any interest in such a procedure to select a lightness of gray?

Yes.... :p

jimwhite

02-19-07, 03:58 PM

both... :D

tpro

02-19-07, 05:02 PM

Before I get too carried away with this . . . is there any interest in such a procedure to select a lightness of gray?[/B][/SIZE]

Are you kidding? YES we need this info! I am personally grateful to you and the others for all the good work you are doing here. I hope to implement this solution very soon, and will report back on same.

I may even stop lurking and participate more actively.

Brewed

02-19-07, 07:46 PM

FWIW I "finished" my screen this weekend. Thanks to Tiddler, MM, Prof et al for all the insight.

I started with a couple coats of regular Kilz (oil) and it looked great. But I knew there was more to be had and I wanted it bigger.

I went all the way up to 90" (small I know) and controlled about 95% of the light into the room.

Two more coats of Kilz to cover the edge of the larger screen followed by two coats of UPW tinted:

0 8 0 Lamp black

0 4 0 Yellow oxide

in a gallon! Ever so subtle grey. Next came a coat of the #780 poly. Things were looking up except for the magnification of a not so perfectly flat substrate which is plaster. I fear that if I sand all the stipple off the wall, I would have to have the wall mudded for a perfect starting point. So my guess is that the stipple is sending PJ light back to me that I don't deserve.

The cool part is that I put a second coat of #780 on yesterday and it was amazing how it flowed into itself. smoothed out and eliminated most of the imperfections which were really only visible if you're looking for them.

A 3" flat black border finished the deal. WOW!

So my vote is for a second coat of the poly. I'm thrilled in the short run. Will keep reading.

PJ is Panny 100u from 14'.

acuevas1206

02-20-07, 12:16 AM

Tiddler,

I finally decided on the route for my diy screen. I will be using the Fneasy solutions as you recommended. I bought everything to start this project tomarrow.

I have one question for you though...

I needed a light weight solution, and did not want to kill my screen i own at the moment just yet (in case I screw up) . So the solution was to buy a very thin redwood, and build a frame. to ensure that the screen surface is perfectly flat I will have to drill screws on the screen surface. I was wondering what would you recommend to reseal that surface?

My idea at the moment is to bondo over the screw head, and then use woodgrain filler and a then a light sand...

What do you think?

btw... Ill post pics of the entire process and finished product. It will be a long one though cause I intend on letting the screen cure for2 weeks with no viewing haha. That may be hard though.

Thanks!

acuevas1206

02-20-07, 12:28 AM