You newbies don't know this, and you oldies don't recall this. But back in 1999, I posted a review on the then brand new PS Audio Power Plant 300 AC regenerator, and as a result, by popular demand, I was forced into moderating the then brand new Tweaks forum here at AVS. I started a Special Guest feature of that forum which then resulted in another forum which I moderated, the AVS Special Guests forum. I've been retired from moderating the past few years, and certainly enjoy not having to deal for free with irate, difficult posters. HA!
Just a bit of history. That initial review was even quoted by PS Audio in their firtst Stereophile ads for the P300.

I initially used to PS Audio P300s in my home theater system - then bye bye P300s for two P600s. I was using two P600s, which were Bybee modded with multiple Bybee filters on AC inputs and outputs. One P600 was for front end components (excluding amps and sub amps). The second P600 was for my Dwin HD-700 CRT projector, Lumagen VisionPro HDP video processor/scaler and Extron video switcher. I used the 60 Hz sinewave on the first P600 as for audio I couldn’t hear an improvement using any of the multiwaves. I used the P1 Multiwave square wave on the 2nd Pp600 as it clearly gave a better video picture.

Now, almost 7 years later, PS Audio has come out with its new Power Plant Premier (PPP), replacing all of their prior Power Plants which are now discontinued but still loved.

My first Power Plant Premier arrived Friday. I got it in that day. Here’s my initial comments:

On Friday by mid afternoon I installed the PPP, replacing both of my P600s. I installed it in a 20 amp, 10 guage wire circuit; using a PS Audio Soloist; then an external Bybee AC charger; then the PPP.

Thanks to the PPP’s 5 isolated zones, I plugged my Theta Casablanca 3 surround processor into one zone and its Theta Six Shooter analog multi-channel preamp into another zone, isolating them from each other!!!!

After about five hours burn-in: Initially, it really sucked big time, no dynamics or microdynamics, bass was dull and lifeless.

I was wondering – Gee, did Paul use Class D amps in this thing, is that why it sucks? But then I read the PS Audio website that Paul kept the Class AB amps, just that PS Audio found a way to lower the large power supply voltages so the amp was efficient 85%, by moving the entire power supply up and down in lock step with the sine wave generator, so the voltage across the amp is only what is needed, thus increasing the efficiency.

Let it burn in while sleeping. After waking up, after ten hours burn-in - WOW! Never sounded this good, particularly voices. Multi-channel SACD is clearly its best ever, bass, highs. If I turn it up somewhat louder than normal listening levels, its not quite as smooth as before, somewhat straining, but my experience is that with more burn-in this will be alleviated.

My good friend Lon came over. He's very familiar with my system. Took him all of a few seconds to hear the improvement. Note this model only has one Multiwave - which I understand is the square wave - and the one 60 Hz sinewave mode. I don't know that it sounds better than my P600s using the 60 Hz sinewave mode. But the multiwave mode is a clear sonic improvement - immediately discernable.

I am running all of my components (except amplifiers) off this unit now - and selling the two P600s. The top of the unit is hardly even a bit warm. Amazing.

Video looks just as good as before. But so far, haven’t notice any difference using the 60 Hz sinewave vs multiwave. Looks the same. Which is fine, as its just as good as before. And as audio is clearly even better using Multiwave, I find myself using Multiwave always.

The product is simply amazing. And the prior barriers to many folks considering the Power Plant, Size, inefficiency, limited power capability and heat, are now a thing of the past. Amazing, Amazing, Amazing. And of course the $2,295 retail price for this is Amazing, Amazing, Amazing!!!

Folks who wan't to rail against power conditioners - please post in that thread, not in this one. Thanks.

While Power Conditioner may be a good thing in some cases. Your review is bogus. Hello what changed over night in the burn in? YOUR EARS. How can people be so fooled? Please in this AV Science forum show us some.

Please post your bogus reviews on the PSAudio website.

I'm not against power conditioners but I do think it's important to realize the damage that can be caused by this "multiwave" stuff into inductive loads. An inductive load is a 60hz power transformer or an AC induction motor, the later being unlikely in an HT setup. But many small high quality analog audio devices as well as almost all power amps use a 60hz power transformer. Running them on anything other than a 60hz sinewave can cause internal overheating. Now if PS Audio want's to re-generate a low distortion 60hz sine wave, that's great. But anything else is of questionable safety.

Now line operated switch mode power supplies could care less what type of waveform they are fed as long as the duty cycle is of sufficient RMS value and in fact can even run on pure DC. But as they produce somewhat dirty power to begin with (ripple typically > 100mv), I can't see what benefit multiwwave power provides.

If PS Audio warns of this, then fine. If they don't, it's pretty irresponsible to market such a device. BTW, is the PS Audio unit UL listed?

Tweaking is fine as long as it's safe to both the user and the equipment.

Steve, I looked at this product too. But it only supports up to 1,500 watts. I am not sure how it is going to work with 7 channels of power amp.

How big is the transformer? Or does it use switching power supply?

Thanks for the review Steve. I hope to have my two PPP in two weeks. :D

Steve, I looked at this product too. But it only supports up to 1,500 watts. I am not sure how it is going to work with 7 channels of power amp.

How big is the transformer? Or does it use switching power supply?

I don't use it for any amps or sub amps. Mine are too powerful. Might work with some low power tube amps fine, but I haven't tried. Does work well with my CRT projector.

For more info, go to the www.psaudio.com website.

I don't use it for any amps or sub amps. Mine are too powerful. Might work with some low power tube amps fine, but I haven't tried. Does work well with my CRT projector.

For more info, go to the www.psaudio.com website.

Steve, I am not one of the anti-power conditioner bigots, but I am a skeptic. I subscribe to the PS newsletter and read all that he puts out, but I still cannot understand these calims of improvements in video systems. What kind of projector do you use and what type of power supply does it use. I suspect it is a SMPS. Are you aware of how they work? Are you aware of how much more noise the convertor itself generates and how difficult it is for power line distortions to pass through the filtering, conversion, filtering, then further regulation, and more filtering that is found in these types of supplies? How does the power affect the secondaries? I have been evaluating power conditioners for years. In fact, the dealer that I once worked for was one of the first PS Audio dealers and I have followed those guys work for years. I have to say, however, that I cannot confirm the claims with any measurements that I have made. Where are the data for video improvement? The claims are at times spectacular. I remain open minded, but there has to be some rational explanation to make this stuff make sense. Where is it?

Steve, I am not one of the anti-power conditioner bigots, but I am a skeptic. I subscribe to the PS newsletter and read all that he puts out, but I still cannot understand these calims of improvements in video systems. What kind of projector do you use and what type of power supply does it use. I suspect it is a SMPS. Are you aware of how they work? Are you aware of how much more noise the convertor itself generates and how difficult it is for power line distortions to pass through the filtering, conversion, filtering, then further regulation, and more filtering that is found in these types of supplies? How does the power affect the secondaries? I have been evaluating power conditioners for years. In fact, the dealer that I once worked for was one of the first PS Audio dealers and I have followed those guys work for years. I have to say, however, that I cannot confirm the claims with any measurements that I have made. Where are the data for video improvement? The claims are at times spectacular. I remain open minded, but there has to be some rational explanation to make this stuff make sense. Where is it?

One of the best video dudes in the country,John Gannon, has seen the positive effect of using the PS Audio Power Plant in my system, as he setup and ISFed my system. So that's that.

Being skeptic is healthy. No problem. There's lotsa stuff I haven't even tried due to skepticism and/or cost.

I have a Dwin HD-700 CRT projector with color filtered lens. And Mike Parker, 9" Electrohome CRT modder deluxe, and Gannon have remarked how did my picture ever look so good, that no other little Dwin ever looked so good.

I think PS Audio has a 30 day return policy - so if you try it, and it's not worth the $$ to you, return it.

Believe me, after my first listening session, I was ready to return it. But I know from experience break-in can make a difference, I just didn't expect break-in to occur so quickly. At least enough break-in to warrant keeping the unit. :eek:

Prior reviews of Power Plant models which also discuss objective science:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_6_4/ps-audio-power-plant-300.html

http://hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_3/ps-audio-p-500-ac-regenerator-9-2004.html

There's plenty more reviews.

The prior Power Plant models were only 50% efficient, generated plenty of heat, had limited power, and were not for everyone. The new Premier doesn't have those problems - but you still clearly don't want to drive a high power amp with it as far as I am concerned.

One of the best video dudes in the country,John Gannon, has seen the positive effect of using the PS Audio Power Plant in my system, as he setup and ISFed my system. So that's that.


That's that? and we are supposed to take this all seriously. Someone who calibrated your system and told you how great it was...come on. Are you not even interested in how or why you might see improvements? I can see what gets the antis and PC bigots in a lather if this stuff is the bet you can come up with.

That's that? and we are supposed to take this all seriously. Someone who calibrated your system and told you how great it was...come on. Are you not even interested in how or why you might see improvements? I can see what gets the antis and PC bigots in a lather if this stuff is the bet you can come up with.

At the first post in this thread I asked"

Folks who wan't to rail against power conditioners - please post in that thread, not in this one. Thanks.

Please take an English class and learn how to read. And go to etiquitte school.
And don't disguise your real agenda. I nicely asked folks to do their "railing" in the other thread in this forum re "railing against power conditioners" so please do so. I will now put you on my ignore list so whatever you say is ignored.

I nicely asked folks to do their "railing" in the other thread in this forum re "railing against power conditioners" so please do so. I will now put you on my ignore list so whatever you say is ignored.

You must be a mod then since you can tell people where to post?

I am not railing against power conditioners. I am simply asking for something more than "my ISF guy said it is great" as an explanation of what is going on. I use a power conditioner on my bench and have seen many times that it cleans up noise on the a.c. line. I have even stated many times that I have used them in sytems to clear up noise that I otherwise could not get rid of. But this was in audio systems with conventional fower supplies. I have tried many times to see line noise on the secondary supplies that feed video and other circuits in systems using SMPSs, but have not been able to find it. I also calibrate systems and have not been able to discern any improvement in any video due to a power conditioner. Still, I hear claims of great improvements. I don't deny that you and others experience them, but I do ask for some rational explanation of what is going on. You offer a review. I ask some seemingly obvious questions regarding how this technology accomplishes these results. Is that inappropriate? Isn't this called AV Science forum? I am an open minded industry professional who has some valid questions. Are you unwilling to address them? I have posed the same questions in several places and received not a single response explaining what is going on. Why is that?

Steve

I believe in Power Conditioning . I have first hand experience of how Power Quality affects computer systems and of course Audio video gears. I could well be the person on this forum who has taken the most extreme measure of power conditioning. The AC fed to both my audio (High-End) and Video (Mid-High-End) is from a Telecom grade low distortion (THD<2% under full load, <.5% under half load).
I also live in a country where Power , not just Quality but its Availability (less than 8 hours a day) is a serious and crippling issue. People in here and in other countries where Electrical power is not available, have taken the route of generators and AC/DC Charger/Inverter usually known as Inverters, one of the most popular brand in my region is Xantrex www.xantrex.com They make "True" sinewave (their better models ), "modified" sine wave. middle of the line and square wave (entry level, low end) inverters. First hand experience and one ANY person who has ever used these inverters will tell you. The "Square wave" inverters on anything electronic introduces buzz... No audiophile ears needed, the buzz is so noticeable that even incandescent lamps buzz sometimes rather loudly, electric fans buzz (and have their lifespan severely affected as are most electric motors and usually home electronics), the modified sine waves induce less sever but still very noticeable buzz. Why would PS Audio, feed your system with the worst waveform for electrical current: the Square wave? It can not make any improvement if indeed it is a square wave... Inductive load, the very transformer in most if not ALL power supplies will buzz audibly and the filtering circuits in most power supplies do not do a very god job filtering these either, they just pass many of these harmonics and you hear the buzz in the speakers from High End system to the cheapest Emerson Radio.. they audibly buzz at the transformer level and through the speakers...
This said , I do nto know how the other modes would work. I understand that PS Audio make a product which double the frequency in other words they feed your system 120 rather than 60 Hz... I have not tried them so I do not know but it seems odd to me to raise the frequency thus having the transformer presenting an increased impedance to the current, I am not sure this is the right thing to do.
What I have been advocating in this very forum is to use Telecom grade double conversion power systems, they cost often less than, the Audiophile Power conditioners while truly protecting and presenting the best possible AC Current to your beloved electronics. They do not mind that you plug your highest power amplifier, mine for example will only start presenting a THD 0f 3% at 15 Kwatts, ,while still maintaining the Voltage to 120 Volt +/- 5% at 15 KW on ANY load, resistive or a combination resistive, inductive and capacitive. Something the Audiophile models cannot do, I do not ANY Audiophile power conditioner able to deliver 5 KW with such specs, NOT ONE! How much for such a system complete with batteries? Less than $5,000...

At the first post in this thread I asked"

Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky
Folks who wan't to rail against power conditioners - please post in that thread, not in this one. Thanks.



Wow! :eek:

Then should we write in the very specific thread you open for believers or objectivists in turn? :rolleyes:

Hehehehe...I can only imagine the line the senoritas south of the border give Steve ;)

My Premier is coming in a month, it costs $3700 in Sweden. I'm only getting it for the CleanWave function for my computer, CleanWave is that good. I used to use a 2nd P300 with a 40cm table fan cooling it but electricity bill was too much. You can see video of the fan here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2wbMzUBAxQ

The only buzz crap is here from some of you. I have never had any buzz in my home theater from using Multiwave, and I've had numerous folks I've met at AVS over to demo over the years and no one's heard the buzz you here.

Frantz, I both like and respect you and your intelligent discourse and questions.
I am not the ultimate technophobie and don't have the answer for you, other than to say you must know quite as much as you think or my theater, lights, fan, etc. would be abuzz, and it ain't. And as I've said before, I don't use the Power Plants for my amps or sub amps - they go straight into dedicated 20 amp circuit outlets in the wall.

Thanks.

Steve, could you plse comment on the following:-

1. How much watts did your two P600's drew before, respectively?
2. How much heat did they generate, ie - could you keep your palm on the lid for a long time?
3. And when you hooked your equipment up to the PPP - did the fan ever come on?

With regard to Power Amps on the Power Plants:- I used to have a Proceed HPA 3-channel amp (250x3) on a P600, along with an AVP and a PMDT. The P600 used to work quite well with this setup, and I could comfortably keep my hand on the P600 lid for extended periods of time. Later on I had a Bryston 300watts x 2, and that also worked fine. While I wouldn't describe the above power amps as very powerfull, well - I think they'd at least pass for "mid-powered". So there are many instances where the P600 and P1000 work quite well on even some bigger power amps.

One thing I can say: The P600/1000 was never happy to run at even only 50% of their capacity. With the P1000, for example, the heat generated was already enormous even with just 500 watts drawn (export 230V model). I found that the P1000 works best with 380-400 watts drawn, max. However, it is surprising how many components you can hook up with only 380-400 watts being drawn ...

But the bottom line, which I sense you're saying, I fully agree with:- The Power Plants like LOTS of headroom.

I must say that I'm also having a hard time with the "ppp burn-in". It must be remembered that all the PPP is providing to your units, is CLEAN POWER. I have a hard time understanding how burn-in on a power plant could have such a huge effect on a system, to vary between "it sucks" and "a huge improvement". May I suggest that, perhaps, the components had in the meantime cooled down. It sounds a lot more plausible to me, that more than 5 hours might be requied for a system to reach optimum performance again.

Steve

Chill.. I am simply sharing my experience with you... I you feed Square wave AC to most electronics they buzz.. I do not know what PS Audio calls multiwave but it is certainly not a square wave or you would hear a buzzing sound coming from your electronics.. I do not know your system and I never professed to.. I am simply skeptical that the multiwave setting produces a square wave.
I have also posted somewhere in the forum that dedicated lines are not the cure-all people think... I will not go over this again...
Happy New Year!!

I must say that I'm also having a hard time with the "ppp burn-in". It must be remembered that all the PPP is providing to your units, is CLEAN POWER. I have a hard time understanding how burn-in on a power plant could have such a huge effect on a system, to vary between "it sucks" and "a huge improvement". May I suggest that, perhaps, the components had in the meantime cooled down. It sounds a lot more plausible to me, that more than 5 hours might be requied for a system to reach optimum performance again.
Everytime I turn off the system for a few hours it takes a long time for it to sound like before. When I turned it off for a day it took 1-2 weeks to get it back. I tried it again yesterday and my system sounds like crap now. :mad:

Everytime I unplugged interconnects it took 5 hours until the edginess was reduced so that my system was listenable again. Beyond 5 hours of burn-in the differences were small.


When I received my PS Audio GCC-100 amp I didn't hear a difference in burn-in, at least not the huge difference as others decribed. When I got my DAC, CD player, cables etc. I heard the burn-in the first few hours, but after that I didn't hear further improvements, it was disappointing because I was expecting more based on what others had said.

Burn-in with new gear usually lasts a few hours for me, why does it take few hours for me and a month for others? I believe it's mostly getting used to the new sound, some adjust to the sound faster than others, especially pro athletes. Or then I just have crappy ears and can't hear subtle differences. But I do hear a difference in ambient temperature while others don't, so it doesn't make sense. I hear a difference in blind tests too while others fail.

Long ago I got a new piece of equipment and listened an hour or so, I went to bed but didn't leave the system burning in. Next day I had adjusted to the sound and it sounded better. My brain adjusted to the sound while sleeping!
This is true with pro sports as well, the athletes do the adjustments and practice half asleep in their bed.
When someone gets a new piece of audio gear they are thinking about it when going to bed, it leaking into their dreams can't be avoided.

When someone installs a new piece of gear they get fatigued when bending behind the rack etc. This will be the main reason for flawed first impressions.
If they have been tweaking the system for 16 hours straight they are very fatigued. When I listened to my system right away it sounded very smooth because my body was relaxed, but next day the bass was too tight and gave me a headache. There are many variables you need to take into consideration, otherwise the impressions will be flawed.

What I do now is I let the system burn in a few hours before I take my first listen. I compensate for all the variables and always write my impressions down into my logs (I have many megabytes), that's how I can compare it to previous upgrades and variations. I NEVER trust my first impressions, they will always be flawed. Instead I wait 2 weeks to decide what the improvements were in the upgrade. This also reduces placebo effect of new gear and the smell of it. The smell changes how you perceive the sound. After 2 weeks you have adjusted to the smell and sound and then you hear the truth. However, it's hard to compare to your previous gear from memory, but I never had that problem, I can remember 10 years ago like yesterday. I believe all audiophiles have a good memory.

Steve, could you plse comment on the following:-

1. How much watts did your two P600's drew before, respectively?
2. How much heat did they generate, ie - could you keep your palm on the lid for a long time?

One thing I can say: The P600/1000 was never happy to run at even only 50% of their capacity.

But the bottom line, which I sense you're saying, I fully agree with:- The Power Plants like LOTS of headroom.

I must say that I'm also having a hard time with the "ppp burn-in".

A few comments:

My P600s never ran even half capacity. I used P1 square wave for the P600 for my Dwin CRT projector and video/scaler switcher + processors as that gave me the best picture - I had tried a P300 but at first the picture looked real good and then it deteriorated, I assume that the P300 was simply be strained. Never had that happen with the P600. I used the other P600 on Sinewave for front end non-amp components which would draw maybe 200 to 300 watts at most, again under half capacity. They were not real hot, but uncomfortably warm to keep one's palm on them for more than a tad.

As for the initial burn-in: When I first got them, they arrived that day, it had been not quite freezing in Az the night before, and the PPP was still cold to touch. That could well have exacerbated and contributed to the "lifeless" sound I initially heard when I demod even five hours after install.

As for belief or disbelief re burn-in, I am comfortable knowing what I hear in my system and its something I have experienced more so with power conditioner and power cords than anything else. I've also experienced it with Theta gear. Theta even tells you that their gear will break-in and sound better over about 200 - 300 hours and that is my subjective experience as well.

Steve

Chill.. I am simply sharing my experience with you... I you feed Square wave AC to most electronics they buzz.. I do not know what PS Audio calls multiwave but it is certainly not a square wave or you would hear a buzzing sound coming from your electronics.. I do not know your system and I never professed to.. I am simply skeptical that the multiwave setting produces a square wave.
I have also posted somewhere in the forum that dedicated lines are not the cure-all people think... I will not go over this again...
Happy New Year!!

And Frantz, I certainly respect and appreciate your experience, as I think you respect mine.

And you are probably right, although I am saying "square wave", its not really perfectly square so I have likely been using a misnomer. Here's a quote from the PS Audio website re the Multiwave"

"(One) of the many features unique to Power Plants are their ability to produce different waveforms. Unlike a power conditioner that simply filters, Power Plants can produce perfect sine waves as well as modified sine waves.

MultiWaves were first introduced nearly five years ago. Invented by our good friend and Northrop Grumman engineer, Doug Goldberg, MultiWave revolutionized the AC power conditioning industry. Instead of the classic sine wave, there can be advantages to connected power supplies by changing some of the sine waves parameters.

Of all the MultiWave choices we have lived with over the years, the most consistent winner was MultiWave 1. This waveform, used in every version of MultiWave as well as AutoWave extends the charging time of the sine wave peak so attached power supplies have less ripple. In the Premier, we decided easy-was-better and offered one choice for MultiWave instead of many. To our ears, this is the clear winner."

O.K. Steve, thanks. I guess that's what I wanted to hear. Two P600's, uncomfortably warm if you keep your hand on them for more than a tad ... then, with the single PPP and the same equipment hooked on - very little to no heat. With the same equipment on a P1000, you probably would've been (almost) able to bake an egg on the lid.

It's the fan issue that's bothering me ....

O.K. Steve, thanks. I guess that's what I wanted to hear. Two P600's, uncomfortably warm if you keep your hand on them for more than a tad ... then, with the single PPP and the same equipment hooked on - very little to no heat. With the same equipment on a P1000, you probably would've been (almost) able to bake an egg on the lid.

It's the fan issue that's bothering me ....

My room is dead quiet. But I never had the P600 fan bother me. I once had a Dish 6000 fan that sure did.

And I don't hear any fan noise with the PPP - the fan probably doesn't come on with my load.

[QUOTE=ValhallaPC]
Long ago I got a new piece of equipment and listened an hour or so, I went to bed but didn't leave the system burning in. Next day I had adjusted to the sound and it sounded better. My brain adjusted to the sound while sleeping!
This is true with pro sports as well, the athletes do the adjustments and practice half asleep in their bed.
When someone gets a new piece of audio gear they are thinking about it when going to bed, it leaking into their dreams can't be avoided.
QUOTE]


WOW, now that really proves you have some audio and scientific creds.

No wonder my system sounds like crap today I wasnt thinking about it last night. It couldnt have been that I was drunk and that the booze had any effect on my ears. No that couldnt be it.

MultiWaves were first introduced nearly five years ago. Invented by our good friend and Northrop Grumman engineer, Doug Goldberg, MultiWave revolutionized the AC power conditioning industry. Instead of the classic sine wave, there can be advantages to connected power supplies by changing some of the sine waves parameters.


Well I don't know Mr. Goldberg but I have to ask if his invention was for the audiophile industry? I'll bet not. Like most of these aerospace references audiophile companies use, the truth is much more complex. Perhaps Mr. Goldberg was working on some skunk works project where "multiwave" AC power was a requirement. Obviously the project was cancelled or otherwise declassified and the research made public. So along comes an audiophile company and takes a highly specialized application and applies it to an industry product for which is has no benefit other than to generate profits from the well financed but engineering ignorant community.

Fact: If you change from the standard sinewave, you change the peak value. A square wave for example is 170v, no longer 120v. I won't get into the calculus here but a square is 100% energy, the sinewave has "areas" where there is less than 100% power being generated. The net result is you are overpowering your gear. Now if it has a switch mode power supply, it doesn't matter. But a 60hz power transformer won't like the extra voltage. Not to mention the magnetic theory problems these "distorted waveforms" cause. Yes, "multiwave" is adding distortion to an otherwise near perfect sinewave.

I find it comical that PS preaches the horrors of distorted AC sinewaves and to some extent they are quite correct. It's not as bad as they claim but nevertheless it's not good either and can cause interfeirence in AV gear. But then they they turn around and add their own blend of distortion back in and call it "multiwave".

Why can't they just produce a clean AC sine wave and be done with it? I'll tell you why, because then they have nothing more than an on-line true sinewave UPS unit I can buy in the computer market for half the cost!

When someone installs a new piece of gear they get fatigued when bending behind the rack etc. This will be the main reason for flawed first impressions.
If they have been tweaking the system for 16 hours straight they are very fatigued. When I listened to my system right away it sounded very smooth because my body was relaxed, but next day the bass was too tight and gave me a headache. There are many variables you need to take into consideration, otherwise the impressions will be flawed.

.

Now that is correct EAR fatigue, thats what changes your ears not the gear burning in. Are you mad, sad,glad, stuffy, tired awake? Those things effect the ears, not a non living object burning in.

[QUOTE=ValhallaPC]

This is true with pro sports as well, the athletes do the adjustments and practice half asleep in their bed.


If the above statement is anywhere near true, do you have any scientific proof that javelin throwers and pole vaulters have more offspring than average?

;)

Here is some info on Goldberg

http://www.stereophile.com/news/10796/

Seems he and DJ Paul have a secret invention. MMMM did they ever present this as a paper at say a peer review like AES??

Just google Multiwave. Seems PSA stuff comes up so they must be the only ones with the secret formula. Funny if you invented some new scientific breakthrough seems 1) people would try to copy it and 2) you would be all over the news 3) You would have all sorts of awards from the science world.

[QUOTE=speco2003]

If the above statement is anywhere near true, do you have any scientific proof that javelin throwers and pole vaulters have more offspring than average?

;)

Just to clear it up thats not my quote its Vahallias.

Here is some info on Goldberg

http://www.stereophile.com/news/10796/

Seems he and DJ Paul have a secret invention. MMMM did they ever present this as a paper at say a peer review like AES??

Just google Multiwave. Seems PSA stuff comes up so they must be the only ones with the secret formula. Funny if you invented some new scientific breakthrough seems 1) people would try to copy it and 2) you would be all over the news 3) You would have all sorts of awards from the science world.

Ok here again, they aren't telling the whole story. Yes, using a square wave or "partial square wave" will reduce ripple voltage in the power supply. It will also increase the DC output which is not good in the case of unregulated equipment - power amplifiers.

But they aren't telling you about the internal regulation found in almost any audio source gear and all video gear these days. A linear series pass regulator will remove any ripple down to the white noise of the pass transistor as long as it's higher then the regulator dropout voltage which is most certianly is. So the net effect of reducing input ripple is nil.

Are they lying? No, the multiwave will lower input ripple on a simple capacitor input power supply. But power supplies today are much more sophisicted than that and the ripple is taken care of in the regulation stage. In a switch mode power supply, the ripple you get is a combination of 120hz and harmonics of the switching frequency which is at least tens of kilohertz. In this case the swithing noise amplitude far exceeds the 120hz AC ripple so reducing that is of no little to no benefit. Also a lot of the switch noise harmonics get into low level analog circuits via RFI, that is through the air as radio signals. You can clean up the incomming AC until the cows come home and you still won;t get rid of the RFI from a poorly shielded switch mode power supply.

A tip to you "multiwave" supporters. If you have a power supply failure in a piece of your gear, don't tell the manufacture you are using multiwave AC to power the unit. You are likely to get a warranty claim denied!

Well I don't know Mr. Goldberg but I have to ask if his invention was for the audiophile industry? I'll bet not. Like most of these aerospace references audiophile companies use, the truth is much more complex. Perhaps Mr. Goldberg was working on some skunk works project where "multiwave" AC power was a requirement. Obviously the project was cancelled or otherwise declassified and the research made public. So along comes an audiophile company and takes a highly specialized application and applies it to an industry product for which is has no benefit other than to generate profits from the well financed but engineering ignorant community.

Fact: If you change from the standard sinewave, you change the peak value. A square wave for example is 170v, no longer 120v. I won't get into the calculus here but a square is 100% energy, the sinewave has "areas" where there is less than 100% power being generated. The net result is you are overpowering your gear. Now if it has a switch mode power supply, it doesn't matter. But a 60hz power transformer won't like the extra voltage. Not to mention the magnetic theory problems these "distorted waveforms" cause. Yes, "multiwave" is adding distortion to an otherwise near perfect sinewave.

I find it comical that PS preaches the horrors of distorted AC sinewaves and to some extent they are quite correct. It's not as bad as they claim but nevertheless it's not good either and can cause interfeirence in AV gear. But then they they turn around and add their own blend of distortion back in and call it "multiwave".

Why can't they just produce a clean AC sine wave and be done with it? I'll tell you why, because then they have nothing more than an on-line true sinewave UPS unit I can buy in the computer market for half the cost!IMO, MultiWave II is the best thing that has happened to audio. In my system using the TubeWave setting for my power amp made tubes obsolete for me, it made it smoother and warmer than Mullard tubes and had higher resolution and detail. My power amp transformed into a tube amp with the press of a button.
But what was really special was MWave4 setting, the improvement in resolution was unbelievable.
For a long time I used MWave1 for my CD player and DAC, but I have found that MWave4 works best for them as well.

The difference between MWave1 and MWave4 is bigger than stock vs Valhalla power cord. The sound completely changes.
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2448954&postcount=16
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2502429&postcount=27

I'm still hoping MWave1 with the Premier will be different, that's why I bought it so I can try it. If I don't like it I will use it for my computer.

IMO, MultiWave II is the best thing that has happened to audio. In my system using the TubeWave setting for my power amp made tubes obsolete for me, it made it smoother and warmer than Mullard tubes and had higher resolution and detail. My power amp transformed into a tube amp with the press of a button.
But what was really special was MWave4 setting, the improvement in resolution was unbelievable.
For a long time I used MWave1 for my CD player and DAC, but I have found that MWave4 works best for them as well.

The difference between MWave1 and MWave4 is bigger than stock vs Valhalla power cord. The sound completely changes.
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2448954&postcount=16
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2502429&postcount=27

I'm still hoping MWave1 with the Premier will be different, that's why I bought it so I can try it. If I don't like it I will use it for my computer.


Yeah, yeah, yeah, go cut up some more of that expensive paper you wrap you cords with. You completly ignored the technical problems I just posted.

I can make any amplifier sound more dynamic and cleaner with a cheap variac. Just run the voltage up to 130 or 150v and it will sound like a new amp! Now run it that way for a few hours or days and you will be buying a new amp.

We have a industry standard power source, 120v 60hz. It's supposed to be a pure sinewave but hardly ever is. Why not just strive to clean it up and use you equipment as the engineers designed it rather than hack at it with this false science that not only is pointless but in this case can be damaging to your equipment.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, go cut up some more of that expensive paper you wrap you cords with. You completly ignored the technical problems I just posted.

I can make any amplifier sound more dynamic and cleaner with a cheap variac. Just run the voltage up to 130 or 150v and it will sound like a new amp! Now run it that way for a few hours or days and you will be buying a new amp.

We have a industry standard power source, 120v 60hz. It's supposed to be a pure sinewave but hardly ever is. Why not just strive to clean it up and use you equipment as the engineers designed it rather than hack at it with this false science that not only is pointless but in this case can be damaging to your equipment.
I didn't hear a difference when increasing voltage. But when I increased from 60 to 90Hz sinewave the soundstage got bigger. Higher than 90Hz didn't sound better though. MultiWave has a combination of frequencies instead of the same one.


http://www.psaudio.com/products/multiwaveiimoreinfo.asp
MWave 1 produces a pure 60Hz wave with an added component of 180Hz in a very small amount (1/9th to be exact) that flattens out the top of the sinewave and lengthens the charging time for your equipment’s power supply.

MWave 2 is a pure sinewave that randomly moves between 50 and 70Hz in the cleanest and lowest distortion manner of any MultiWave pattern ever devised. This MWave will work wonders with video equipment and source equipment of all kinds.

MWave 3 is MWave 1 with two differences: half the amount of the 180Hz waveform is added to produce a gentler charging time and the frequencies are randomly selected between 50 and 70Hz.
This setting is one of two for power amplifiers and source equipment that are recommended when driving multiple items. Choose this waveform first and then try MWave 4 next and see which of the two best suit your combination of source and power amplifiers.

MWave 4 is MWave 1, frequency modulated in a random fashion and designed to switch frequencies at the lowest impact point for a clean and distortion free output. Best when used with solid state power amplifiers, or if the connected solid state equipment needs some added fullness in the midbass area.

TubeWave™ is a special waveform that is specifically designed for any tube circuit or solid state equipment you want to take on a tubelike sound.

And Frantz, I certainly respect and appreciate your experience, as I think you respect mine.

And you are probably right, although I am saying "square wave", its not really perfectly square so I have likely been using a misnomer. Here's a quote from the PS Audio website re the Multiwave"

"(One) of the many features unique to Power Plants are their ability to produce different waveforms. Unlike a power conditioner that simply filters, Power Plants can produce perfect sine waves as well as modified sine waves.

MultiWaves were first introduced nearly five years ago. Invented by our good friend and Northrop Grumman engineer, Doug Goldberg, MultiWave revolutionized the AC power conditioning industry. Instead of the classic sine wave, there can be advantages to connected power supplies by changing some of the sine waves parameters.

Of all the MultiWave choices we have lived with over the years, the most consistent winner was MultiWave 1. This waveform, used in every version of MultiWave as well as AutoWave extends the charging time of the sine wave peak so attached power supplies have less ripple. In the Premier, we decided easy-was-better and offered one choice for MultiWave instead of many. To our ears, this is the clear winner."
Steve, this extension of the sine wave peak time, which increases the potential that your equipment's power supply can draw from the line, is exactly what Richard Gray's does with their "Electronic Flywheel" conditioners. The RGPC inductor creates a large magnetic field which collapses as the sine wave peak begins to drop, and converts the field back into current extending the peak time of the sine wave. Even though PS accomplishes this in a very different manner it sounds like PS and RGPC are trying to accomplish the same thing ie. extending the sine wave peak timing and delivering more potential per cycle to the equipment's power supply. According to Richard Vandersteen it is this greater potential per cycle which makes equipment sound and look better.

Well I don't know Mr. Goldberg but I have to ask if his invention was for the audiophile industry? I'll bet not. Like most of these aerospace references audiophile companies use, the truth is much more complex. Perhaps Mr. Goldberg was working on some skunk works project where "multiwave" AC power was a requirement. Obviously the project was cancelled or otherwise declassified and the research made public. So along comes an audiophile company and takes a highly specialized application and applies it to an industry product for which is has no benefit other than to generate profits from the well financed but engineering ignorant community.

Fact: If you change from the standard sinewave, you change the peak value. A square wave for example is 170v, no longer 120v. I won't get into the calculus here but a square is 100% energy, the sinewave has "areas" where there is less than 100% power being generated. The net result is you are overpowering your gear. Now if it has a switch mode power supply, it doesn't matter. But a 60hz power transformer won't like the extra voltage. Not to mention the magnetic theory problems these "distorted waveforms" cause. Yes, "multiwave" is adding distortion to an otherwise near perfect sinewave.

I find it comical that PS preaches the horrors of distorted AC sinewaves and to some extent they are quite correct. It's not as bad as they claim but nevertheless it's not good either and can cause interfeirence in AV gear. But then they they turn around and add their own blend of distortion back in and call it "multiwave".

Why can't they just produce a clean AC sine wave and be done with it? I'll tell you why, because then they have nothing more than an on-line true sinewave UPS unit I can buy in the computer market for half the cost!

http://www.xhifi.com/index.php?section=about&subsection=dougbio
for info on Doug Goldberg:

"Doug's father, a nuclear engineer, got him started in audio by helping him build a Knight Kit integrated amp at the age of 12. Doug was hooked, and soon after began creating his own gear out of necessity as a starving undergrad student. Doug started his professional career as a digital circuit designer and later moved into systems-level engineering. He currently runs a senior level advanced concepts organization for Northrop Grumman Corporation.

Always frustrated by not being able to purchase the products he wanted to own, Doug got started as a designer in late 1980s when a new company called Audio Alchemy launched itself around one of his earliest Digital-to-Analog Converter (DAC) designs: the DDE v1.0, a product that would almost single-handedly spawn the high-end digital separates industry. Over the next 15 or so years, Doug designed a multitude of other renowned audio and home theater products for some of the world's most respected consumer electronics companies, most notably audio Alchemy, Camelot Technology, PS Audio, NAD, and Wadia.

Doug holds a Bachelor of Science in Electrical Engineering from the University of Illinois at Champaign, a Masters in Electrical Engineering from the Illinois Institute of Technology, and a Masters in Business Administration from Northwestern University."

______________________

PS Audio's multiwave products have been out now since about 2001-2002 and we haven't heard the reports of equipment failure that you folks are now predicting. Isn't "Observation" also part of the scientific equation?

Its funny how some folks with "some" technical knowledge but with no practical engineering design experience know everything and aerospace and audio engineers like Doug Goldberg know nothing.

My ears tell me otherwise.

......

Fact: If you change from the standard sinewave, you change the peak value. A square wave for example is 170v, no longer 120v. I won't get into the calculus here but a square is 100% energy, the sinewave has "areas" where there is less than 100% power being generated. The net result is you are overpowering your gear. Now if it has a switch mode power supply, it doesn't matter. But a 60hz power transformer won't like the extra voltage. Not to mention the magnetic theory problems these "distorted waveforms" cause. Yes, "multiwave" is adding distortion to an otherwise near perfect sinewave.

I find it comical that PS preaches the horrors of distorted AC sinewaves and to some extent they are quite correct. It's not as bad as they claim but nevertheless it's not good either and can cause interfeirence in AV gear. But then they they turn around and add their own blend of distortion back in and call it "multiwave".
Why can't they just produce a clean AC sine wave and be done with it? I'll tell you why, because then they have nothing more than an on-line true sinewave UPS unit I can buy in the computer market for half the cost!

I bet what they call multiwave is a higher frequency sine wave... Maybe 120 Hz.. I am certain it cannot be a square wave... And yes Glimmie, One can find a good Dual conversion UPS for the same amount of money and more power, it will only not be as good looking.

http://www.xhifi.com/index.php?section=about&subsection=dougbio
for info on Doug Goldberg:

Its funny how some folks with "some" technical knowledge but with no practical engineering design experience know everything and aerospace and audio engineers like Doug Goldberg know nothing.

My ears tell me otherwise.

Show me where I said Mr. Goldberg knows nothing.

"no parctical engineering design experience" hmmm most would also disagree with that.
home.earthlink.net\~tubesforht

I bet what they call multiwave is a higher frequency sine wave... Maybe 120 Hz.. I am certain it cannot be a square wave... And yes Glimmie, One can find a good Dual conversion UPS for the same amount of money and more power, it will only not be as good looking.
If it was a 120Hz sinewave it would hum like a sinewave. With each MultiWave setting the transformer sounds different, it's not a constant hum. MWave4 is the loudest setting of them all, it sounds like 4 beats and a pause. With my Krell power amp I could hear it from across the room, the improvement was so big that I didn't mind. With my sources I need to put my head close to the chassis to be able to hear it.

Has someone cared to look at the "Multiwave" with an oscilloscope?

"Has someone cared to look at the "Multiwave" with an oscilloscope?"

That would best!!

I just stumbled on this thread, it's unbelievable!

Square waves are bad for our gear I can see it working at all, now quasi square wave may work but its not good and that I learned from class and hands on.

We use a combination of Alpha and APC to get a true Sine wave off the feed from our local power company and when we have to run off the Generator for back-up.

Unless Steve gets an Oscilloscope hooked like Frantz has said to look at what this stuff is generating it is nothing but a markeeting tool name.

Seems the trouble keps on coming for PSA and this new unit.

http://www.psaudio.com/account/forum/view.asp?catID=3&forumID=6&topicID=4176


PSA said all these units would be inspected by them in Boulder, I guess opening the box to look inside is an inspection.

Does Bruzonsky still use Tice clocks?

Ignoring the naysayer/negative pundits who have never even tried regenerated AC in their home theater or audio setups and who luv bashing, I will proceed.

The unit has continued on and burn-in over the weekend. Last night, listening again to some multi-channel James Taylor, I noted improvement in listening at higher volume levels - smoother, more natural, no straining. On Saturday, listening at a 58 - 60 level, which was for everyone plenty of volume, was without strain. Last night, 65 which was very loud, was without strain.

Watched "Serenity" HD DVD in Dolby Digital Plus and it was awfully great sounding, using Toshiba XA1 HD DVD player & Theta Six Shooter analog multi-channel preamp.

Happy new year Steve!!


Ignoring the naysayer/negative pundits who have never even tried regenerated AC in their home theater or audio setups and who luv bashing, I will proceed.

The unit has continued on and burn-in over the weekend. Last night, listening again to some multi-channel James Taylor, I noted improvement in listening at higher volume levels - smoother, more natural, no straining. On Saturday, listening at a 58 - 60 level, which was for everyone plenty of volume, was without strain. Last night, 65 which was very loud, was without strain.

Watched "Serenity" HD DVD in Dolby Digital Plus and it was awfully great sounding, using Toshiba XA1 HD DVD player & Theta Six Shooter analog multi-channel preamp.

This is an interesting discussion, although I don't understand the need for 'bashing' or excessive enthusiasm.

What we have here as a product is a solid-state line power generator (rectifier/inverter pair), with selectable output waveshapes. It's really that simple. I have a few observations that I'd like to get some feedback on....


The first benefit, which is pretty easy to understand, is rock-solid voltage regulation. The reason this is desirable for ALL electronic devices should be immediately obvious to even a casual observer.

The second benefit, which is a bit more esoteric, is an absolutely stable voltage waveshape. Normal line power does not have an absolutely stable waveshape; although the power companies' generators put out something pretty close, non-linear load currents can cause notching, distortion, transients, etc. to appear on the voltage signal. These effects can be both steady state and transient. A device like the one described will eliminate these issues. Although these PQ (power quality) problems have a much more pronounced impact on devices using linear power supplies, the transient effects can also cause excessive noise in devices with switchers. (Why? Because the outputs of commercial switchers are generally value engineered to selectively filter the switching frequency. Parasitic noise that is outside the range of the notch or LP filter can still creep through.)

Now, the 'Multiwave' concept is a bit more interesting. What it sounds like from reading between the lines in their marketing literature (I'm going out on a limb a bit here....) is that they have actually measured the impedance characteristics of some common high-end CE power supplies and have developed some combination waveshapes that increase the efficiency of these supplies. The fact that there are several different combinations is what leads me down this path; no single 'ultimate' voltage waveshape could accomplish this with every product out there. For some devices, the straight 60Hz sine wave may still be the best option. Under any circumstances, the 'extended' sine wave probably works very well with switchers, while not causing the excessive heating seen with with true square wave power fed to a linear PS (If they haven't added lots of very high-frequency harmonics, then it won't overheat the input transformer).

Now, how this would actually affect the black levels in a projector is a bit beyond me - maybe reduction in parasitic noise generating a lower output noise level (and a corresponding higher S/N)? The benefits for any audio components using linear power supplies should be apparent - no reason to speculate here.


Thoughts/comments?

Seems the trouble keps on coming for PSA and this new unit.



PSA said all these units would be inspected by them in Boulder, I guess opening the box to look inside is an inspection.


That's a members only link above..:(

For CSA approval here in Canada (there's a supplier that brings Inter-M amps right from Korea), that's more or less all they do, is look under the cover. Most of what CSA cares about is that the ground wire is properly attached. Funny, I've seen them pass an IEC power connector rated at 10 amps, 120 volts in an amplifier rated at 2000 watts RMS. Let's see, that's a minimum 200 watt overload on the 1800 watt IEC connector, considering that no amplifier is 100% efficient...

Can you cut and paste that link?

MauneyM, interesting points. Not sure if I agree with all of them..:)

Any switch mode power supply generates it's own waveforms that then drive a switching transformer. Any AC input is converted to DC with massive filtering before ever hitting the oscillator that then is regulated by a feedback loop from the switching transformer. to me, a square wave at 100Khz (or so) creates massive noise as more or less agreed on by everyone here. How a modified wave at the AC input stage can REDUCE noise in an SMPS is beyond me. It's all converted to DC regardless.

I can see how a modified sinewave then turned to DC can give a higher DC voltage due to a larger RMS value of said modified wave. What could happen though is that the input capacitors in the AC->DC section might blow if they are rated a bit on the tight side. You might get a larger DC voltage feeding the SMPS section, you might also have that SMPS run hotter and thus have a shorter lifespan.

The only section of any component that might benefit from cleaner AC power is a straight linear power supply section driving a speaker output stage. I'd say though that due to internal filtering of the capacitors of the linear power supply, very slight sags and surges of the AC input voltage are stabilized by the caps anyways.

Once again, the virtues of something that I would consider a tweak have been waxed poetic about without any scientific evidence. Steve, build a switch with a high current relay that will instantaneouly switch between the PS AC and regular house AC. Use 10 gauge cable and hospital grade plugs and outlets. Only THEN if you can hear a difference will I be (partially) convinced that this new black box does anything for the music.

Steve, are your PPPs from the first batch or second batch? Are the serial# of the PPPs below or above 100?
Some people's PPPs have break-in time in 100+ hours and sensiing improvements after that, what do you think of that? Are the PPPs as open & ease to the ears as the PP600s? Thanks.

MauneyM, interesting points. Not sure if I agree with all of them..:)

That's why I asked for comments! :cool:

How a modified wave at the AC input stage can REDUCE noise in an SMPS is beyond me. It's all converted to DC regardless.

OK - here goes. The ~100 kHz (an assumption) switching freq is high enough that it should cause little or no impact on audio signals. However, lower-frequency noise on the line could be inductively coupled through the power supply. Yes, the caps should get rid of it, but there IS a source impedance - nothing is perfect in practice. Get rid of voltage transients on the source, and you get rid of high-current spikes in the PS that can induce noise in anything nearby.

What could happen though is that the input capacitors in the AC->DC section might blow if they are rated a bit on the tight side.

Agreed, but we're generally talking about higher-end equipment, so I wouldn't expect this to occur.

You might get a larger DC voltage feeding the SMPS section, you might also have that SMPS run hotter and thus have a shorter lifespan.

I might actually expect the opposite, because with higher voltage comes lower current, given the same power requirement. This depends on the load characteristics, though, so........it's toss-up. [FWIW, I have seen a small SWPS that was designed and tested in a facility with a VERY soft source actually fail to start correctly when attached to a very stiff line. The design had been 'optimized' under a particular set of circumstances that turned out to be too far off the real-world averages. So, yes, input PQ can make a difference to a SWPS.]

The only section of any component that might benefit from cleaner AC power is a straight linear power supply section driving a speaker output stage. I'd say though that due to internal filtering of the capacitors of the linear power supply, very slight sags and surges of the AC input voltage are stabilized by the caps anyways.

It depends on the frequency and the total PS design. Remember that no cap in the real world is ideal - they all have ESR, and the source impedance from the low-voltage side of the transformer/rectifier comes into play. You can't block everything with a linear PS.

Once again, the virtues of something that I would consider a tweak have been waxed poetic about without any scientific evidence.

Agreed. I'm playing devil's advocate here, though, because I have seen some really bizarre real-world behavior solved by proper PQ mitigation. The real question is this: What was it that was wrong with the utility power feed that was causing the reduced performance to begin with?

Ignoring the naysayer/negative pundits who have never even tried regenerated AC in their home theater or audio setups and who luv bashing, I will proceed.



Steve, regenerated AC is great. We have two systems where I work, a teleproduction and mastering facility, that regenerate the AC on a scale of 160,000 and 120,000 watts each . These are large UPS systems that can carry the technical load for 20 minutes on utility power loss. The output a clean sinewave* These are quite commen in data centers and other technical facilities that need clean power.

My beef is with the multiwave. Altering the 60hz sinewave shape is not good.

*Of course the AC waveform on the power distribution busses is somewhat distorted and noisey due to the hundreds of switching power supplies on the system.

My set up is also from a regenerated AC and the differences are obvious to me and some others... My system is fed extremely clean 60 Hz sine wave with less than .5 THD.

I do not see why PS audio would add that 180 Hz.. I surmise it is a clever marketing ploy... Sine many inverters tend to add some amount of Harmonic distortion.. Why not label it as an addition to the pure signal to make it ...purer?
At the end Regenerated AC is the best solution when it comes to power conditioning and no! People you do not have to invest "audiophile" money.. Dual conversion UPS work better and are cheaper to boot...

Steve, are your PPPs from the first batch or second batch? Are the serial# of the PPPs below or above 100?
Some people's PPPs have break-in time in 100+ hours and sensiing improvements after that, what do you think of that? Are the PPPs as open & ease to the ears as the PP600s? Thanks.

My # is above #100. Just got it last Friday. Yes, I continue to sense improvements with more break-in, as I posted above. To me the PPPs are even more open ans ease to the ears than the PP600s at this point.

My set up is also from a regenerated AC and the differences are obvious to me and some others... My system is fed extremely clean 60 Hz sine wave with less than .5 THD.

I do not see why PS audio would add that 180 Hz.. I surmise it is a clever marketing ploy... Sine many inverters tend to add some amount of Harmonic distortion.. Why not label it as an addition to the pure signal to make it ...purer?
At the end Regenerated AC is the best solution when it comes to power conditioning and no! People you do not have to invest "audiophile" money.. Dual conversion UPS work better and are cheaper to boot...

Steve, regenerated AC is great. We have two systems where I work, a teleproduction and mastering facility, that regenerate the AC on a scale of 160,000 and 120,000 watts each . These are large UPS systems that can carry the technical load for 20 minutes on utility power loss. The output a clean sinewave* These are quite commen in data centers and other technical facilities that need clean power.

My beef is with the multiwave. Altering the 60hz sinewave shape is not good.

*Of course the AC waveform on the power distribution busses is somewhat distorted and noisey due to the hundreds of switching power supplies on the system.

Ah Ah. So both of you are regenerated AC fans!!!!

Keep in mind that when I said "square wave", being a non techie, I wasn't giving an accurate description of what the Multiwave is. All I know is that its a bit more square at the charging end - whatever that means. HA! But apparently its not what you technical folks refer to as a true "square wave".

And I can appreciate your concerns that using anything other than a straight 60 Hz might perhaps be problematic. However, I used the Multiwave P1 on my Dwin projector since 2000 and not one problem. And I also used a Multiwave for my audio for about two years in the early 2000s, then after some system changes I found the straight 60 Hz sinewave worked as good at any and I switched to that for audio. So I am comfortable using the Multiwave with the new Power Plant Premier, especially given the clear sonic improvement vs 60 Hz sinewave.

The problem Steve and the other PSA users is not the use of a power unit. The problem lies in your thinking that your hearing breakin, seeing magic, hearing magic, and the BS that is put into the adverts of these things.

Stop and do some real testing not just the blind faith you put into these things.Does breakin ever go the other way? It must otherwise no one would ever buy new gear.

Again Steve B are you till using the Tice clock?

My beef is with the multiwave. Altering the 60hz sinewave shape is not good.Have you heard MultiWave? After you hear it you will agree that 60Hz should be illegal. If I would build a city I would output MultiWave through separate Valhalla power cords, each apartment gets it's own power cord from the power plant. There will be millions of cables on the streets but who cares when it sounds so good!

The problem Steve and the other PSA users is not the use of a power unit. The problem lies in your thinking that your hearing breakin, seeing magic, hearing magic, and the BS that is put into the adverts of these things.

Stop and do some real testing not just the blind faith you put into these things.Does breakin ever go the other way? It must otherwise no one would ever buy new gear.

Again Steve B are you till using the Tice clock?

I've never used a Tice clock. Quit making stuff up. Quit telling me what I should be hearing. Your system isn't resolving enough to sound any different if its on or off so how would you know about break-in? If an amplifier or pre-amp manufacturer tells you that the component will gradually break-in and sound better after so many hours, you say it is fluff - but you're not even the engineer or designed it and you haven't designed any audio components. So quit wasting our time here.

Speco, maybe this is none of my business, but ...

O.K. I can see where you're coming from ... Carl Sagan would have referred to a "baloney detection kit" and yes, I know there's a lot of BS in the audio world as well. A lot of well-meaning folk get suckered today ... whether it's to do with religion, beliefs, pyramid schemes, "alternative medicine", Amway products or whatever. Hi-Fi certainly is not excluded from it ...

BUT, Speco, having said the above (and agreeing with a LOT of what you're saying - sometimes to a lesser, sometimes to a higher degree) - I have to also say (with respect, and IMHO), that your confrontational style of posting also irritates me.

To give just two examples:-
1. Why are you goading (there's no other word) SB with "are you still using the Tice ...? What other possible reason could you have but referring him to a link in a certain Electronics Magazine, trying to humiliate him with AHA told you so!??
2. Clearly, PSA is having some problems at the moment with certain issues (could be related to QC, and/or to bugs that still need to be sorted out etc). BUT why why why do YOU see the need to specifically post (paraphrasing) "oh, their idea of testing is proably just to open the box ...".

I've had some (irritating) problems with PSA myself, too - BUT I can HONESTLY say that they've ALWAYS come thru' for me ... At the moment, I'm also irritated, with delays, issues that has still got to be sorted etc etc. But it is only fair to give ample time.

I've never used a Tice clock. Quit making stuff up. Quit telling me what I should be hearing. Your system isn't resolving enough to sound any different if its on or off so how would you know about break-in? If an amplifier or pre-amp manufacturer tells you that the component will gradually break-in and sound better after so many hours, you say it is fluff - but you're not even the engineer or designed it and you haven't designed any audio components. So quit wasting our time here.
as far as how revealing my system is, you have never heard it so you cant know, but then again PSA made a plugin to give you special powers maybe. And as far as breakin is concerned again there is ZERO SCIENCE behind it. For a lawyer you sure fall for hype pretty easy.

As far as the Tice Clock just going by this post from you. It was on this site http://www.richardgrayspowercompany.com

Quote"David I suggest you try or anyone else out there a number of products if you can to compare the varying degrees of effectiveness when it comes to this tweak.

Products to compare with:

Tice Audio Original Tice Clock (1988)
Tice Solo Power Enhancer (1996)
Tice Power Block IIIb video enhancement option (same design as Solo Power Enhancer) (1995)
Electraclear ECU-1 (1997-discontinued but can be found used at The Cable Company 1-800-fatwyre or www.fatwyre.com)
API Power Enhancer 1
API Ultra Power Enhancer
Quantum Symphony filters (1999)

These products will give you varying degrees of effectiveness when compared with the Richard Gray Power Company. I think the Tice (Solo $349.00 list) will come out on top (wait for Doug Blackburn's review coming soon), but the Electraclear ECU-1 will really give it a run for its money at the same price as the Tice.

APM
Steve Bruzonsky
Moderator"

as far as how revealing my system is, you have never heard it so you cant know, but then again PSA made a plugin to give you special powers maybe. And as far as breakin is concerned again there is ZERO SCIENCE behind it. For a lawyer you sure fall for hype pretty easy.

As far as the Tice Clock just going by this post from you. It was on this site http://www.richardgrayspowercompany.com

Quote"David I suggest you try or anyone else out there a number of products if you can to compare the varying degrees of effectiveness when it comes to this tweak.

Products to compare with:

Tice Audio Original Tice Clock (1988)
Tice Solo Power Enhancer (1996)
Tice Power Block IIIb video enhancement option (same design as Solo Power Enhancer) (1995)
Electraclear ECU-1 (1997-discontinued but can be found used at The Cable Company 1-800-fatwyre or www.fatwyre.com)
API Power Enhancer 1
API Ultra Power Enhancer
Quantum Symphony filters (1999)

These products will give you varying degrees of effectiveness when compared with the Richard Gray Power Company. I think the Tice (Solo $349.00 list) will come out on top (wait for Doug Blackburn's review coming soon), but the Electraclear ECU-1 will really give it a run for its money at the same price as the Tice.

APM
Steve Bruzonsky
Moderator"

Speco. Pay attention. Its signed "APM" which is Alan Maher. He asked me to post that for him at AVS back when I moderated the tweaks forum. By the way, I reviewed the RGPC and it did nothing in my system and I said that on AVS.
And I never used Tice, that's Alan Maher raving about it.

SPeco, you have a habit of jumping to conclusions instead of asking questions.
You are a NO IT ALL.

Here is somethiing to think about. I could be wrong, but it appears that the new premier does not have balanced output - at least there is no mention of it in their blurb. And reading between lines, it makes sense: it bypasses to the full wall power during turn on surges of connected equipment - not really possible to do w/o a big output iso tranny I would think, which is a big no-no for PS.
So, after all these years of using balanced as a major marketing ploy, has PS sacrificed that feature... lets see, for efficiency?

Have you heard MultiWave? After you hear it you will agree that 60Hz should be illegal. If I would build a city I would output MultiWave through separate Valhalla power cords, each apartment gets it's own power cord from the power plant. There will be millions of cables on the streets but who cares when it sounds so good!

I'm not saying it doesn't make some equipment sound better. I firmly beleive it does. The problem is how it does it. Like I said before I can accomplish the same thing by feeding an amplifier 170 volts with a variac. You bet it will sound more dynamic and brighter - that is until something fails from being over stressed. Could last many years but it's still wrong to stress something. You wouldn't run your car at redline constantly would you?

If you want more dynamic and cleaner sounding amplifiers, then buy them. But don't force the stuff you own by feeding it improper power supply signals.

BTW, you haven't a clue why we use AC power distribution do you? Transmission system transformers perform a critical function allowing power to be transmitted many hundreds of miles. We figured that out in the late 1800s when we scrapped Edison's DC system that barely went a few blocks in lower Manhatten!

Speco. Pay attention. Its signed "APM" which is Alan Maher. He asked me to post that for him at AVS back when I moderated the tweaks forum. By the way, I reviewed the RGPC and it did nothing in my system and I said that on AVS.
And I never used Tice, that's Alan Maher raving about it.

SPeco, you have a habit of jumping to conclusions instead of asking questions.
You are a NO IT ALL.

Oh gosh why did I not see that. How did I not know??? Really if your going to post things for other people maybe you shouldnt have your name on it.

Again I dont have the plug in for mind reading that you do.
I am a Know it all.

Here is somethiing to think about. I could be wrong, but it appears that the new premier does not have balanced output - at least there is no mention of it in their blurb. And reading between lines, it makes sense: it bypasses to the full wall power during turn on surges of connected equipment - not really possible to do w/o a big output iso tranny I would think, which is a big no-no for PS.
So, after all these years of using balanced as a major marketing ploy, has PS sacrificed that feature... lets see, for efficiency?


Yes. The Premier doesn't output balanced power. But it has five isolated zones of two outlets each. Paul McGowan of PS Audio has commented on the PS Audio forum that they felt that the Premier performed so well with so little noise that
balanced power was not necessary.

Isolated how?

Here's the full info on the Premier from the PS Audio website, which includes info re the isolated zones. For more specific info you can check the forum at www.psaudio.com, as Paul McGowan regularly answers questions there and gives some further information provided its not considered too proprietary.


The Power Plant Premier is the world’s first and only low distortion, high efficiency AC power regenerator. The device provides regulated, low distortion sine waves from the AC wall socket and can power an entire system.

By generating new AC, the Premier produces up to 1500 watts of regulated AC power at an efficiency of 85% with little to distortion or noise. The Premier has ten outlets, five IsoZones™, a built in power sequencer, THD analyzer, voltage meter, MultiWave, CleanWave and a remote control to access all the features.

The Premier is our finest power product ever made and replaces the P300, P500, P600, P1000 and P1200 Power Plants.

The Premier is housed in a scrumptious new chassis whose industrial design is based on the BMW automobile and is the brain child of one of our country’s brightest new ID talents, Chris Malato.

Not just another “box” the Premier marries solid aluminum castings, extrusions, milled blocks and hand crafted parts to form one of the most stunning pieces of industrial art anyone’s laid eyes on. You’d be quite proud to display this beauty in your system.

A little history
In 1997, PS Audio introduced the world’s first AC regenerator, the P300 Power Plant. The P300 was an instant hit amongst Audiophiles the world over and there are nearly 3000 in the field. The P300 produced up to 300 watts of pure regenerated AC power.

The idea behind the P300 was based on the principal that filtering the AC with a power conditioner was only a Band Aid solution because it did not address the most important problems in AC power delivery: regulating the voltage, high distortion clipped sine waves, multiple harmonics and noise.

No simple series or parallel filter can correct these problems. In order to produce perfect sine waves, regardless of the quality of the input AC, it is necessary to add energy back into the sine wave to replace what’s missing. That is exactly what the Power Plants do.

Unfortunately, there was a hitch: the technology used in the P300 was not efficient and up to half the energy consumed was wasted in heat and restricted output power. So, while the ground breaking P300 would power most preamps, CD players and turntables, it was not capable of powering power amplifiers, receivers and integrateds.

To solve this problem we introduced larger models that could deliver more power, with the largest being the P1200 Power Plant that weighed in at 150 lbs! The performance of these devices was unquestioned but their inefficiency led to a number of problems and limitations.

To solve these problems we wanted a “dream machine” that offered everything in a Power Plant with higher efficiency. This turns out to be a rather difficult technological challenge that the engineering team at PS has struggled with for nearly 10 years.

A dream come true
The breakthrough came several years ago when our VP of engineering, Bob Stadtherr, came up with a brainstorm that led to a patent application for a new technology and eventually, the Power Plant Premier. The 50% efficiency of the older Power Plants was upgraded to an astonishing 85% using Bob’s new technology.

Suddenly it was possible to build a Power Plant capable of delivering almost as much as the wall has to offer.

Once we had the technology in place we started adding features that our customers had asked for over the years and finally, the Power Plant Premier was born.

The technology To understand how the Premier works and why it is efficient, it’s necessary to first understand how the older Power Plants work and why they are not efficient.

The original Power Plant technology was relatively simple: a stereo power amplifier fed 60 Hz from a sine wave generator. The output of the stereo amplifier was connected to the AC input of the connected equipment. Each channel of the stereo amplifier produced ½ the necessary 60Hz sine wave voltage and when you combined the two channels across a load, you got 120 volts (in the US) at 60Hz.

The Power Plants used conventional class AB power amplifiers to drive the power and these types of amplifiers are about 50% efficient, hence the low efficiency of the Power Plant. The reason these amplifiers are inefficient stems from the fact that they require a large power supply voltage, generating heat as the signal travels between the supply voltages extremes.

There are other amplifier topologies that are more efficient, like the Class D amplifiers we use in the G Series, but these produce too much noise to be used as a Power Plant.

In the G Series, this noise doesn’t matter because it feeds a loudspeaker which cannot reproduce the 500 kHz noise and is unaffected. But a Power Plant has to be clean; very clean.

Bob’s discovery was a way to lower the large power supply voltages so the amp was efficient. To do this, Bob figured out a way to move the entire power supply up and down in lock step with the sine wave generator, so the voltage across the amp is only what is needed, thus increasing the efficiency. In most other respects, the old and the new Power Plants are the same.

Let’s take a tour Now that we know how it works, let’s see what a Premier has to offer.

Perhaps the biggest benefit is unlimited power. At 1500 watts there’s enough power for even the most demanding systems. Whether it’s an audio based two channel system or a video based multi-channel home theater, 1500 watts will power pretty much anything you have.

The Premier takes what the wall AC has to offer and converts it into perfect AC. Rebuilding the sine wave into this low distortion waveform is a huge benefit to owner’s of the Premier. Most AC power is deformed and flawed out of the wall, with the top of the sine wave missing. The Premier fixes this problem as well as provides instantaneous voltage regulation to connected equipment, regardless of the power demands.

Surge and spike protection are unparalleled in the Premier. Not only does your equipment benefit from the over under voltage control of the Premier, instantaneous non-volatile spike protection, but the voltage regulating capabilities of the Premier keep everything connected to it at a perfect steady voltage regardless of input conditions. Connect a simple, inexpensive computer UPS to the Premier and even in blackouts, the Premier will continue to work perfectly.

Inside is an amazing piece of construction. From the custom built Power Port AC receptacles, to the 1/4 inch thick copper bars that carry the power from the Power Cartridge to each of the receptacles with zero loss, hundreds of hours of design time have gone into the building of this amazing power delivery system.

Isolation from connected equipment. The 5 IsoZones and 10 receptacles on the rear of the Power Plant Premier keep one piece of equipment from contaminating other pieces plugged into the Premier.

The Premier also has a unique feature that allows it to apply more power than it can regenerate for short periods of time. For instance, if you turn on a very large power amplifier, the turn-on power required by the amp can exceed the Premier’s regenerating capabilities. No problem, the Premier simply connects directly to the wall AC until the amplifier has powered up, then reverts back to regenerated power.

Front panel features
The front panel of the new Premier has a number of innovative features and functions not found on any other power product.

MultiWave and CleanWave
Two of the many features unique to Power Plants are their ability to produce different waveforms. Unlike a power conditioner that simply filters, Power Plants can produce perfect sine waves as well as modified sine waves.

MultiWaves were first introduced nearly five years ago. Invented by our good friend and Northrop Grumman engineer, Doug Goldberg, MultiWave revolutionized the AC power conditioning industry. Instead of the classic sine wave, there can be advantages to connected power supplies by changing some of the sine waves parameters.

Of all the MultiWave choices we have lived with over the years, the most consistent winner was MultiWave 1. This waveform, used in every version of MultiWave as well as AutoWave extends the charging time of the sine wave peak so attached power supplies have less ripple. In the Premier, we decided easy-was-better and offered one choice for MultiWave instead of many. To our ears, this is the clear winner.

CleanWave was introduced about a year ago and “degausses” or cleans attached equipment. It does this by varying the frequency and amplitude of the sine wave in small bubble-like responses. The Premier maintains this feature and CleanWave is available via the remote control as well as MultiWave.

THD in and out
No one has ever dared place a true THD meter on an AC power product, and for good reason; they cannot do anything about the problem. Our power lines are polluted with 3d, 5th, 7th, 9th and higher harmonics as a result of AC sine wave distortion, common in everyone’s home. These harmonics generate higher order harmonics as well. By purifying and rebuilding the sine wave, you eliminate these harmonics. The two go hand-in-hand.

Why do you care if the sine wave is distorted or clipped? Simple: clipped sine waves cannot deliver the needed peak power. Once the integrity of the sine wave is restored, then the harmonics are reduced and your equipment performs at its best.

A common power filter, whether series or parallel, cannot lower the harmonic distortion of the AC without reducing its level, because you need to add energy back into the sine wave to fix it properly. Passive power filters can only take away, they cannot add, so the sine wave is always distorted.

Power Plants can and do replace the missing parts of the sine wave to produce a low distortion output, low impedance output even under extreme loads.

The front panel of the Power Plant can read both incoming and outgoing harmonic distortion, known as THD. You won’t find this on any other product in the world, and as we said, for good reason.

Voltage in and out
The Premier’s front panel also allows you to measure both incoming and outgoing voltage, or you can monitor the difference between the two. If the line voltage is 110 volts, for example, the Power Plant will show an output voltage of 120 and a difference of +10. The +10 is what the Power Plant is adding to the output to keep the voltage steady.

While several of our competitors make long term regulators that either correct these voltage differences slowly (like the AVS 2000) or in jumpy steps like those found on a UPS or transformer based units, they cannot react quickly when the voltage changes are due to power amps and projector demands under real world conditions. The Power Plant can.

Remote control
Perhaps the one consistent customer request we’ve had over the years is for a remote control to activate the different functions and display options. The new Premier has an included remote control that can change the display brightness, choose THD or voltage, select MultiWave or sine wave, or activate the CleanWave function.

Rack ears included
Many of our customers have asked for an easy rack mount solution for the Power Plant and Quintessence Power Center. Each of these products is two rack high (3.5 inch) and comes with rack ears you can choose to add or keep off the front.

Rear panel features
The rear panel of the Power Plant Premier is where the “rubber meets the road”. On the rear panel there are 10 AC receptacles, 5 IsoZones, a power sequencer, circuit breaker, CATV connectors and telephone in and out.

5 IsoZones
IsoZones are one of the new technologies we’re introducing with the new power line that includes the Premier Power Plant, Quintessence, Quintet and Duet Power Centers. An IsoZone is a separate differential mode filter, fed by a common mode Nano Crystalline filter.

Each of the 5 IsoZones on the rear of the Premier Power Plant separates equipment noise. All electronic equipment generates AC line noise, some more than others. When you plug a digital device in the same receptacle as an analog device, the noise of one can interfere and contaminate the performance of the other. To solve this problem, you need effective isolation between equipment.

The challenge is to build a filter that is effective at isolating noise while at the same time, non-intrusive. It’s not difficult to build a filter that has remarkable performance in terms of noise reduction. It is extremely difficult to build such a filter without using a lot of wire and components that restrict the power delivery of the filter. The IsoZones use very short pieces of heavy gauge wire, wrapped around small high permeability magnetics to achieve both these design objectives.

To further enhance their performance, each IsoZone is fed from a common mode filter made of pure Nano Crystalline, a remarkable new space age material that has the highest permeability of any magnetic material currently available. Together, the two filters form an isolation and cleaning network that is both non-intrusive and an excellent performer.

Power sequencer
The new Premier has the capability to drive an entire system and it is therefore essential that connected equipment be turned on in the proper order. Preamps, surround processors and sources of all kinds need to be turned on first, while power amplifiers, integrateds and receivers should be turned on last.

In some cases, like that of a Tivo, hard drive music based systems or control setups, it is important to never lose power. The Premier’s rear panel power sequencer allows you to select any of the three available power zones and choose always on, switched on, delayed on. With these choices, you can setup your system to automatically leave power on, turn it on or off via the front panel power button (or the remote), and delay the turn on sequence until the source equipment has been activated.

12 volt trigger
The Power Plant also features two 12 volt triggers. These triggers are easy to use and will turn on or off the P3 (Power Plant Premier) power sequencer. Apply 12 volts at either trigger input and the P3 will sequence on the connected equipment. Remove the 12 volts and the P3 will turn off the connected equipment. !2 volt triggers are commonly found on surround processors, receivers, automation equipment and some preamplifiers.

Power Cartridge surge and control
One of the more interesting and novel features of the Premier, as well as all products in the new power line is the Power Cartridge AC input module. Invented by PS Engineering, the Power Cartridge contains the surge and spike protection, circuit breaker, over/under voltage control and the first stage of common mode filtering.

The unique cartridge is the heart of our new series and can be replaced in the field should a problem ever occur. For instance, if the home is struck by lightning or a surge or spike big enough to damage the cartridge, it easily slides out and can be replaced by the dealer.

CATV, telephone For those owners of complete AV systems that have connected video and telephone, the rear panel supports two sets of antenna, cable TV, satellite or anything using a CATV connector or two sets of telephones. Anything plugged into these in/out connectors will be protected from high voltage spikes that can come through these outside world connections.

OK Steve, you provided a copy of what is on the PS site. I am sure that Paul appreciates the advertising.

With regard to the isolation, the following is said:

"To further enhance their performance, each IsoZone is fed from a common mode filter made of pure Nano Crystalline, a remarkable new space age material that has the highest permeability of any magnetic material currently available. Together, the two filters form an isolation and cleaning network that is both non-intrusive and an excellent performer. "

OK, this sounds like it might be good. Where are the specifications on what bands are filtered and to what degree? Where are the specs to support the claims regarding surge suppression? Why should one have to ask the designer for such basic information if the product actually performs so well?

OK Steve, you provided a copy of what is on the PS site. I am sure that Paul appreciates the advertising.

With regard to the isolation, the following is said:

"To further enhance their performance, each IsoZone is fed from a common mode filter made of pure Nano Crystalline, a remarkable new space age material that has the highest permeability of any magnetic material currently available. Together, the two filters form an isolation and cleaning network that is both non-intrusive and an excellent performer. "

OK, this sounds like it might be good. Where are the specifications on what bands are filtered and to what degree? Where are the specs to support the claims regarding surge suppression? Why should one have to ask the designer for such basic information if the product actually performs so well?

Leonard, I am just an end user. I have no idea re further specifics. You might want to join the forum at www.psaudio.com and ask those questions, as Paul McGowan regularly responds. I appreciate that perhaps if you or I marketed the product, we would put out those specs - but we don't, and what matters to me most is how well the product performs.

The Power Plant Premier is the world’s first and only low distortion, high efficiency AC power regenerator. The device provides regulated, low distortion sine waves from the AC wall socket and can power an entire system.


A little history
In 1997, PS Audio introduced the world’s first AC regenerator, the P300 Power Plant. The P300 was an instant hit amongst Audiophiles the world over and there are nearly 3000 in the field. The P300 produced up to 300 watts of pure regenerated AC power.


Wrong on both counts.

Any on-line UPS system does exctly the same thing. Note that most low cost UPS systems you find at Best Buy are not true online units.

Regenerated AC has been around since the 1950s. Perhaps even beofre that. the first systems were motor-generator systems with large flywheels to provide ride through. In the mid 1960s SCR technology was used to make solid state invertors.

This is hardly a novel idea. What is a first is packaging it in a fancy box and selling as a high end AV system accessory.

Clarification: The above quote attributed to me is my quoting from the PS Audio website
all of their listed information regarding the Power Plant Premier, and not my representation.
All I know is that personally the PS Audio Power Plants have worked very well in my system, I am very please with them especially now the Premier, and I have never seen a UPS unit such as Glimmie or Frantz talks about recommended for home theater/audio purposes - you'd think if they were competitive price and performance wise, that they would be advertising in that market, wouldn't you? I am skeptical that such quality units are available at the price point of the Premier Power Plant. But I am open to being educated.

Glimmie, why don't you give us what on line UPS systems you recommend and their cost, with web links if possible so we can see the specs and cost, etc.

Also, for us non-technofiles, would you please explain how an on line UPS generates its pure sine wave and how its method differs, if at all, from how PS Audio generates their pure sine wave.

Thanks.

Glimmie, why don't you give us what on line UPS systems you recommend and their cost, with web links if possible so we can see the specs and cost, etc.

I'm not Glimmie, but I can tell you that there are 4 major on-line UPS manufacturers worth looking at.

1) Eaton/Powerware
2) Emerson/Liebert
3) Schneider/MGE
4) APC (recently purchased by Schneider)

Most of the other brands you see for sale are actually designed and manufactured by one of these 'big four'.

Also, for us non-technofiles, would you please explain how an on line UPS generates its pure sine wave and how its method differs, if at all, from how PS Audio generates their pure sine wave.

There is no one specific answer, as different models from different manufacturers provide different output qualities and use different technologies. However, there are a few consistent points.

1) All online double-conversion UPSs do the same basic thing as the above device (PPP): They take the line power, convert it to DC (rectification), then use an inverter to create an AC output. The DC bus is also linked to a battery string which provides the actual backup energy; more batteries = more up-time when the line drops.
2) The inversion stage is generally built by using one or more strings of large transistors or IGBTs, controlled by a microprocessor that digitally creates the desired output waveshape. (You can think of this as an IGBT power amplifier with a digital signal source; it's actually more complex, but this is the basic idea.) The best of these units actually analyze the load profile in real-time and change the drive signal to compensate for non-linear loads, thus maintaining an near-perfect power factor and absolute voltage regulation (eliminating the need for the inductive filters described in the marketing literature above).
3)Anyone who is in the UPS or critical power industry finds this discussion to be 'old-hat' and not remarkable at all.

The only real difference I see is in the efficiency - 85% is pretty low, and wouldn't be competitive in the UPS industry anymore. See this link:

15kVA UPS (http://www.powerware.com/ups/selector/solutionUPSConfig_PART.asp?RegionUPSID=387&cx=3)

This UPS provides true sine wave output, 14 minutes battery backup, power factor correction, voltage regulation (1% under static load conditions), 'true regeneration' (to use the term used on this board), >90% efficiency, and the base price is very low in comparison to the audio solutions discussed here (I won't put numbers here - I think it's against board rules).

All I know is that personally the PS Audio Power Plants have worked very well in my system

The "all I know" part seems to sum up this thread. I, and others, have asked some reasonable questions that one would think would be worth considering on a forum dedicated to AV Science. Those questions have been dismissed and all we get are long quotes from the PS site and patronizing moronisms quoting those who praise the product with no documentation of its effects.

I really would like to understand the science and technology of power supplies better. Given that I work on them and install systems all the time, I think I know a bit. It has been impossible to learn anything from what I have seen here, other than what some THINK they are experiencing about the product.

I have never seen a UPS unit such as Glimmie or Frantz talks about recommended for home theater/audio purposes - you'd think if they were competitive price and performance wise, that they would be advertising in that market, wouldn't you?

No. The UPS manufacturers are focused on a different (much larger) market entirely, and probably wouldn't find the high-end audio market to have enough volume to be worth the marketing expense.

I'm not Glimmie, but I can tell you that there are 4 major on-line UPS manufacturers worth looking at.

1) Eaton/Powerware
2) Emerson/Liebert
3) Schneider/MGE
4) APC (recently purchased by Schneider)

Most of the other brands you see for sale are actually designed and manufactured by one of these 'big four'.



There is no one specific answer, as different models from different manufacturers provide different output qualities and use different technologies. However, there are a few consistent points.

1) All online double-conversion UPSs do the same basic thing as the above device (PPP): They take the line power, convert it to DC (rectification), then use an inverter to create an AC output. The DC bus is also linked to a battery string which provides the actual backup energy; more batteries = more up-time when the line drops.
2) The inversion stage is generally built by using one or more strings of large transistors or IGBTs, controlled by a microprocessor that digitally creates the desired output waveshape. (You can think of this as an IGBT power amplifier with a digital signal source; it's actually more complex, but this is the basic idea.) The best of these units actually analyze the load profile in real-time and change the drive signal to compensate for non-linear loads, thus maintaining an near-perfect power factor and absolute voltage regulation (eliminating the need for the inductive filters described in the marketing literature above).
3)Anyone who is in the UPS or critical power industry finds this discussion to be 'old-hat' and not remarkable at all.

The only real difference I see is in the efficiency - 85% is pretty low, and wouldn't be competitive in the UPS industry anymore. See this link:

15kVA UPS (http://www.powerware.com/ups/selector/solutionUPSConfig_PART.asp?RegionUPSID=387&cx=3)

This UPS provides true sine wave output, 14 minutes battery backup, power factor correction, voltage regulation (1% under static load conditions), 'true regeneration' (to use the term used on this board), >90% efficiency, and the base price is very low in comparison to the audio solutions discussed here (I won't put numbers here - I think it's against board rules).

Thanks for the good info.

How many outlets do these units have. Do they have isolated outlets or banks of outlets? Do they have always on or switched outlets for different components?Its ok to list retail prices on the forum - just not sale prices, so please give me one or two units you recommend, with web link, and retail price. Thanks.

The "all I know" part seems to sum up this thread. I, and others, have asked some reasonable questions that one would think would be worth considering on a forum dedicated to AV Science. Those questions have been dismissed and all we get are long quotes from the PS site and patronizing moronisms quoting those who praise the product with no documentation of its effects.

I really would like to understand the science and technology of power supplies better. Given that I work on them and install systems all the time, I think I know a bit. It has been impossible to learn anything from what I have seen here, other than what some THINK they are experiencing about the product.

You are being unfair. I tell you what I know from my subjective experience, and to the extent I feel that I have objective knowledge I will tell you. But I didn't design the product, and I'm no engineer. You are certainly within your rights to say that you aren't comfortable using a particular product because you don't have your technical questions answered.

What do you use, if anything, for power conditioning for your audio or home theater system?

Speco2003,

Please tell us about your home system. Is the Pioneer receiver your reference component?

Thank You :D

OK, this sounds like it might be good. Where are the specifications on what bands are filtered and to what degree? Where are the specs to support the claims regarding surge suppression? Why should one have to ask the designer for such basic information if the product actually performs so well?
1) Supposedly, PSA is working on some sort of new testing procedure which would enable them to quantify the degree of filtration. Considering that other companies are readily able to provide graphs of attenuation vs. frequency possibly suggests that their claims are based upon calculations.
2) PSA has a completely bizarre definition of surge that has changed over time. Presently, they're looking at surges as overvoltage conditions. In essence they're maybe protecting you from nudges as opposed to anything resembling electrical catastrophes. Further, none of their products are tested to any sort of IEEE or TVSS protocols. Your protection is based on word of mouth.
3) Perusals of PSA's forums as well as their little niche in AA demonstrates an abysmal lack of knowledge by customers, present and potential, and answers to many questions are at a level slightly above that.

2) PSA has a completely bizarre definition of surge that has changed over time. Presently, they're looking at surges as overvoltage conditions. In essence they're maybe protecting you from nudges as opposed to anything resembling electrical catastrophes. Further, none of their products are tested to any sort of IEEE or TVSS protocols. Your protection is based on word of mouth.


This is one of the things that bothers me throughout the retail power conditioning market. There ARE standards - UL 1449 and NEMA LS-1, to give two examples. However, very few of the producst that say they provide transient or surge suppression are actually listed by UL, CSA, or one of the other NRTLs under these standards. In fact, it's pretty rare that you even see a peak surge current rating or a maximum let-through voltage - they all seem to want to use the 'joules' ratings, which tell you absolutely nothing about the ability of the device to eliminate a transient.

Oh, well......

Certainly there's far more to consider than joules by itself, which is indicative of longevity more than anything else. That it's not specifically listed by the UL doesn't bother me so much as that it's not tested to any industry established protocols. Given the many reports from users that various products have audible hums, turn off at random, and so forth, does not inspire any great confidence. They should be thankful they have an apologetic user base that rises to their defence. We might still have the Ford Pinto if the press and users were as vociferous.

Joule ratings seem to be much less useful than I had assumed. I recently took apart a CyberPower 1090 rated at 3000 Joules and a Panamax rated at 1650. They had virtually identical complements of MOVs. I suspect that some vendors are adding up the capacity of all of the dumping devices, even though you could never have a situation where every combination was dumping simultaneously.

Does that make the CP unit a bad choice? Obviously not, as for very similar protection you can find the unit for a lot less, and I use them. The point is that you can't assume greater protection from a joule rating. One thing I like about Panamax is that they have some of the most complete specs, even rating the clamping voltages on the signal lines. Few others are as complete in their specifications. Some publish virtually nothing.

Joule ratings seem to be much less useful than I had assumed. [...] The point is that you can't assume greater protection from a joule rating.

Here are a few points to consider re: TVSS devices.

1) The first thing you need to know is how many 'modes' of protection are provided. A 'mode' is a voltage relationship, i.e. Neutral-Ground, Line-Ground, Line-Neutral. Each 'mode' will have its own MOV or bank of MOVs.

2) Most TVSS units in the US use MOVs. All MOVs fail eventually. They are sacrificial devices, like fuses, and are designed to wear out as they absorb transient energy. Since MOVs WILL fail over time, it is best to have them in a separate device, so that they can be replaced when necessary. Relying on internal surge suppression MOVs in expensive equipment is not a good idea - they should be the last line of defense.

3) Joules determine how much energy the TVSS can absorb before it fails.

4) Peak surge current tells you how fast the total device can absorb the energy in a transient, and is generally rated in kA. If there is 10,000A of available current in a transient, but the TVSS has a peak surge current of 5000A, the other 5000A is going into your equipment.

5) Clamping voltage and time tells you how much of the transient will be let through anyway (no TVSS is perfect - it would fail within a week if it were designed too close to the nominal voltage); clamping time tells you how far into the transient you will be when the MOVs start to conduct and absorb the energy.

6) Peak kA is the best rating to use when trying to determine how long a TVSS will last in a given situation. Why? The more MOVs you have in parallel, the more kA it can handle. So, in general, higher kA = higher MOV count = longer life.

7) Peak kA can be expressed as per mode (per phase) or total for the device. This can be confusing.

Bottom line: I can have a device that will absorb 1,000,000 Joules, but if its clamping time is 500 msec at 475V, it will be useless.

It's not that the rating is useless Icaillo, it's just that it doesn't represent the full picture and only provides one aspect of something to consider. You've been around this hobby long enough to recognize that many specs that manufacturers provide are self serving of their own interests. It's like people who get hung up over 100 watts vs. 105. Marketing loves this. Now, if you first go whole house, which will throttle the surge down to only something like 300 or 400 volts, your plug in surge device will likely become an eyesore before it ever needs replacement simply because the bulk of the work was done where it was supposed to be done - at the breakers.

Joule ratings seem to be much less useful than I had assumed. I recently took apart a CyberPower 1090 rated at 3000 Joules and a Panamax rated at 1650. They had virtually identical complements of MOVs. I suspect that some vendors are adding up the capacity of all of the dumping devices, even though you could never have a situation where every combination was dumping simultaneously.

Does that make the CP unit a bad choice? Obviously not, as for very similar protection you can find the unit for a lot less, and I use them. The point is that you can't assume greater protection from a joule rating. One thing I like about Panamax is that they have some of the most complete specs, even rating the clamping voltages on the signal lines. Few others are as complete in their specifications. Some publish virtually nothing.


You also need to look at the circuit topology, lead length for individual units and let through voltage for the standard tests (if even performed by the manufacturer)

Speco2003,

Please tell us about your home system. Is the Pioneer receiver your reference component?

Thank You :D


AHHH the ol your system isnt defining enough to use this power product or cable argument. Thats a fine argument except the companies that sell this gear sell it to the everyman that they fool into thinking they need. Is the pioneer my reference? If by that you mean is this what my HT gear uses then yes. So its time for a gear pissing match?

just a fact, i had a chance to use that PS 300 thngy in my audio system in 1990s. :cool: glad theres such a discussion

Speco2003,

I was just interested in what you listen to.

Why the hostility?

Adios! :eek:

Gee, like that was relevent. Equally as irrelevent we have from randyswart.com

Steve Bruzonsky, Arizona's Get Well, Get on With Life Attorney, is the 567th largest lawfirm in Arizona.

Steve, you should consider filing a class action lawsuit against some of these companies. I'd support ya!

So its time for a gear pissing match?Yup. Any time someone starts listing the equipment you own, consider it a sign that they've completely run out of facts about the actual topic being discussed and have no where else to go for distraction.

Sanjay

Agreed. Once someone has no solid arguments to sustain a reasonable debate, then starts asking questions to other people about the gear they own.

The gear must be expensive and/or manufactured by exotic brands, BTW. PSA for instance :D

The usual B.S. :rolleyes:

It is difficult to have a solid argument about the new PS Audio Premier Power Plant since I have never seen or heard one. Given that this is a forum for 20,000+ audio gear, I don't think I was out of line trying to determine what Speco2003 was listening to. Also, since most high end equipment is ultimately defined by the sound it produces, I don't think my question was outrageous.

You guys have become intolerant and obnoxious. Heck, I didn't even disagree with Weiss.

I think the moderators should return this forum to its original intent.

Steve

Well, now that you've determined it, not that it was all that difficult to find, now what?

Prior reviews of Power Plant models which also discuss objective science:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_6_4/ps-audio-power-plant-300.html

http://hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_3/ps-audio-p-500-ac-regenerator-9-2004.html

There's plenty more reviews.


I stopped reading both the reviews and this thread once I got to the part in the first review (7th paragraph) that said

Are all AC-DC-AC converters created equal? No way! A lot of UPS devices intended for PCs do a poor job at this. They essentially lay many square waves on top of each other, even though, according to Fourier’s theory, if you lay enough sine waves on top of each other, you create a square wave rather than the other way around.

I figured it was a waste of my time to read "scientific" reviews where the reviewer spouts about Fourier without the first clue how it works.

Cliff's Notes?