Why I Rail Against Power Conditioners [Text View]

lcaillo

12-31-06, 05:14 PM

I am more curious why people use them with such enthusiasm. I have evealuated may of them for years and found that while they generally do reduce line noise, it is very hard to find that line noise or the difference in the equipment beyond the primary of the power supply. I have yet to find a single instance where I could see line noise on the secondary of even a conventional power supply on my bench with a scope, while I can see it on the line. I can't even imagine a SMPS passing low level line noise. The power supplies themselves generate far more noise than what you see on the line.

I have had a couple of experiences with severe noise on a.c. lines in audio that I could not resolve without line conditioners, but these were far from the ordinary. I am also not a "it can't possibly be audible" nut who rejects the possibility. I have just never been able to hear the differences that so many people report, nor have I been able to see the difference in any video system. Nearly every modern video component uses a SMPS which makes it nearly impossible for low level noise to survive conversion. I have looked for it, but never been able to find it.

Does anyone have any data that supports the improvements that many report?

Curt Palme

12-31-06, 05:56 PM

I'll take you up on why I rail against power conditioners.... all three rails. hot, neutral and ground...;)

Because of morons like the guy that wrote the testimonial right on the front page of PS Audio's site...

"I then connected the Premier to my 8 year old 26 inch Toshiba television. The TV had been plugged into a UPC-200, which was plugged into a $2100.00, 3 year old Exact Power 15A unit, both feed by 2 year old Statement power cables. I performed ABAB comparison tests using a $400.00 Philips 963A DVD player as a source which was not connected to the Premier. The immediately noticeable improved 3D imaging, crisper and more defined lines, greater focus, true velvety black, greater luminescence, decreased glare and haze, richer colors with greater shade variations made this a gigasmic and gratifying experience. I never knew my TV could achieve such black levels, plus the intelligibility of the dialogue improved. I found myself trotting out more and more DVD's.

OK, so let me get this straight: He has a $500 8 year old TV that isn't HD (they weren't 8 years ago). The set is now worth $100 on the used market. It sounds like he uses the internal speakers for sound. Yet he spends big bucks on power cords and $2200 for a line conditioner.

Yet read further down on the PS Audio webpage, and he 'yearns for a 50" TV. Well hey, Mr Gullible Consumer, why not take back the PS Audio unit, and you might well venture into the New Millenium because then you could afford a new TV! Idjit!

Back as you were, nothing to see here...:)

Art Sonneborn

12-31-06, 06:14 PM

Does anyone have any data that supports the improvements that many report?

:D

ValhallaPC

12-31-06, 06:18 PM

OK, so let me get this straight: He has a $500 8 year old TV that isn't HD (they weren't 8 years ago). The set is now worth $100 on the used market. It sounds like he uses the internal speakers for sound. Yet he spends big bucks on power cords and $2200 for a line conditioner.
Same with me. Proper power, cables, vibration isolation and shielding make a bigger difference than upgrading a piece of audio gear because you can use it for the whole system.
He didn't buy the Premier just for his TV...

Steve Bruzonsky

12-31-06, 06:31 PM

Hi Steve,

Can you elaborate some more about your experiences with power conditioners? I am surprised that you don't use them in your setup.

Thanks,

- Steve O.

I do. Read the PS Audio Premier Power Plant review thread here in this forum.
I created this thread so the anti-power conditioning folks can spew their pollution here instead of in the PS Audio thread. HA!

Steve Bruzonsky

12-31-06, 06:37 PM

Steve Bruzonsky

12-31-06, 06:46 PM

Same with me. Proper power, cables, vibration isolation and shielding make a bigger difference than upgrading a piece of audio gear because you can use it for the whole system.
He didn't buy the Premier just for his TV...

Curt, please don't lump me with Mr. Valhalla, either. He is definitely off the deep end. Power conditioners do have some merit in some systems for some purposes.
But Mr. Valhalla is clearly off the deep end. :eek:

Art Sonneborn

12-31-06, 07:12 PM

Curt, please don't lump me with Mr. Valhalla, either. He is definitely off the deep end. Power conditioners do have some merit in some systems for some purposes.
But Mr. Valhalla is clearly off the deep end. :eek:

Yes ,but without science where does that deep end start Steve ?

Steve Bruzonsky

12-31-06, 07:19 PM

Yes ,but without science where does that deep end start Steve ?

Objective science and subjective listening are both important. One without the other is foolhardy. I'n not saying all power conditioners or power cords are worth the money or worthwhile - yes, some are in my opinion, but nowhere near all of the stuff thats out there. And some reviews are worthwhile, some are a load of crap. You pick your poison.

There's lotsa objective science behind the PS Audio Power Plants, such as:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_6_4/ps-audio-power-plant-300.html

But yes, there's plenty of vodoo to go around in some power cables and some power conditioners, too. But that doesn't invalidate all of it. :p

But you poo pooers enjoy this thread. Poo Poo here all you want. Spend your New Year poo pooing if you like. But to say that regenerated AC or balanced power isn't scientifically proven is ludicrous from a scientific standpoint. Now to say that every power conditioner is worth the money to everyone in every application is just as stupid.

ValhallaPC

12-31-06, 08:30 PM

Jonomega

12-31-06, 08:46 PM

This Greek audiophile says power is 50% of his system and vibration is 20%.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xs1aUws0Lrs

This is my list:

60% Valhalla cables
13% Power conditioning
12% ERS Paper
12% Vibration isolation
2% Amp
1% Source

While thats great, speakers are important as well. Seeing as zero percent of your list (out of 100%) has speakers, i am not sure how you are able to enjoy audio :confused:

Are you plugging in your amp directly to your ear drums? :D

Philip Tan

12-31-06, 08:48 PM

I use to pick them up long time ago at tower records, now I can't even go to tower records anymore.

http://www.theaudiocritic.com/downloads/article_1.pdf

Anyway, my Vansevers Model 85 and my PS300 don't do anything for video, but for audio I kiss my Vansevers. :D

Philip Tan

12-31-06, 09:01 PM

lcaillo

12-31-06, 09:11 PM

Objective science and subjective listening are both important. One without the other is foolhardy. I'n not saying all power conditioners or power cords are worth the money or worthwhile - yes, some are in my opinion, but nowhere near all of the stuff thats out there. And some reviews are worthwhile, some are a load of crap. You pick your poison.

There's lotsa objective science behind the PS Audio Power Plants, such as:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_6_4/ps-audio-power-plant-300.html

But yes, there's plenty of vodoo to go around in some power cables and some power conditioners, too. But that doesn't invalidate all of it. :p

But you poo pooers enjoy this thread. Poo Poo here all you want. Spend your New Year poo pooing if you like. But to say that regenerated AC or balanced power isn't scientifically proven is ludicrous from a scientific standpoint. Now to say that every power conditioner is worth the money to everyone in every application is just as stupid.

I am familiar with that review and find no measurements to back up the claimed improvements. Where is the science? The improvements may be real, but are they due to grounding changes or balanced output, or are they due to recreating the a.c.? How about some measurements on the supplies in each component to find where these differences are actually coming from, or even some S/N measurements or sweeps to identify that they are real? Where is this science that you talk about Steve?

I am not poo pooing anything. Just asking for you to give us what you are claiming to give us. You talk about the science being important, but in the other thread you make it clear that having your ISF guy proclaim that your system is great is evidence. And "that's that", you said. Here you say that one without the other is foolhardy...is that just lip service to the science or do you have something to offer?

I have been folowing Paul's work for years and have yet to find support for value to line conditioning used on units with swtiching power supplies such as those used in most video products these days. I can see benefits to improved grounding and perhaps even balanced power, if the grounding issues can be resolved safely, but I am still looking for reasons to justify the value of "clean power" for SMPS based systems. They essentially take this "clean power" and create some pretty nasty switching noise that they then need to clean up again. How is that not making the power conditioner irrelevant? Now a conventional power supply like you find in most amps and preamps is another matter. I am a bit skeptical there as well, but I can see how a case could be made.

ValhallaPC

12-31-06, 09:15 PM

While thats great, speakers are important as well. Seeing as zero percent of your list (out of 100%) has speakers, i am not sure how you are able to enjoy audio :confused: I was assuming everyone already have perfect speakers and room treatments.

Are you plugging in your amp directly to your ear drums? :DAlmost. My speakers feel like part of my head. They are invisible too.

http://poollogics.is-a-geek.net/pictures/forum4/System/K1000.Valkyrja-shocked.and.braced.in.chair.JPG

ValhallaPC

12-31-06, 09:26 PM

"2% amp" Maybe you should look for a better amp with a well design power supply.
The difference between $39 T-amp and $5000 Krell power amp was that small, and that's the truth, read all my old posts at Head-fi. Both had something wrong with the sound, they were the complete opposites. They didn't improve the sound, they just gave the sound a different flavor, and that's the difference with all gear. PS Audio GCC-100 is both of them combined, good enough.

My first amp was an old Krell KAV-500i and it benefited the most from power conditioning. The improvement was crazy. Changing MultiWave settings with P300 Power Plant made a difference that took months getting used to. When changing from MWave1 into MWave4 it was like a using a completely different amp! The tight bass gave me a headache, I couldn't listen more than a few minutes.

I have found that Toroidal transformers benefit the most from MWave4. I use it with my DAC and can't be without it.

EDIT: Here are my old logs, MultiWaveII upgrade for my amp is at Edit8: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=128104

ValhallaPC

01-01-07, 01:48 PM

This Greek audiophile says power is 50% of his system and vibration is 20%.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xs1aUws0Lrs
This is what he says:

Audiophile: "Electricity is 50% of the sound, for me. You know that, everybody know that."

Audiophile: "It plays music, believe me."
Interviewer: "You think the rack actually..."
Audiophile: "Yeah, the rack is 20% of the sound...believe me."
Audiophile: "I told you, 20% from my sound is the rack."

Allen Fleener

01-03-07, 12:45 PM

Steve

Thanks for starting this thread ;)

I am one who recognizes the value of good power and power line conditioning. I also recognize that it is not for everyone, as a good deal of the brands out there are little more than snake oil. the same for cables and speakers for that matter.

I approach the system of electronic components as just that, a system, made up of many parts which all bring to or take away from the overall experience.

It is a team that works well together and has no prima donnas'.

Synergy is crucial and can be difficult, and for many, impossible to achieve.

Think I'm crazy? Spend enough time ( about 2 hrs) truly listening to what most would consider high end systems and you will come to see what I mean.

I think that all should try to build a system that spends your money in equal proportions across the whole system. If I were to spend the the largest portion it will ALWAYS go towards source componentes, ie dvd, cd, sacd, dvd-a, and record players. From here you will try to balance your spending across the rest of your system. You should have in mind, roughly, where you want to end up as to performance and cost.

I approach the system this way (in no particular order)....

Source players
Dacs'
Preamp
Amp(s)
Speakers
Cables
Powerline conditioning
Room acoustic treatment
Vibration isolation
Rf and emf blocking
Contact cleaning and enhancement
Calibration and setup

ALL of these areas MUST be addressed. Remember a chain is only as strong as it's weakest link. Thinking that one can be left out is a sure fire way to miss out on the benefits it would bring to the overall presentation.

The real question is ... How much should each area need in order to deliver the necessary level of performance?
This depends on the value you place on the music you listen to. Some will spend $100,000+ others $10,000 and others still $200 for a small boom box.

I think you need to figure around $10,000 as good place to start for a 2 channel music system or a multi channel movie system.

If a bit more is available then this should be spent on acoustic treatments to further enhance the overall balance. I would continue to improve the rooms acoustics until it is dialed in and then and only then upgrade other items in the system. The room acoustics will have the single largest negative effect on the sound and thus should be the primary area of attention until it is repaired.

Yes ALL ROOMS ARE BROKEN acoustically speaking and MUST be repaired before the true nature of ANY system can be known. I would not follow the theater room treatments that are shown with all the walls covered with some form of treatment as this would harm the musicality of the room and would be far to over damped and sterile sounding. The main stream thoughts are sadly to heavy handed as a rule. These room treatments are like salt while to little is still on the bland side too much is unpalatable.

The best systems are just like the best sports teams. They are the ones that play well together, and are truly balanced. These yield a truly emotional and involving experience.

ValhallaPC

01-03-07, 08:30 PM

Synergy is crucial and can be difficult, and for many, impossible to achieve.
I agree, I put an extra step of isolation feet under the components and it sounded completely messed up. It sounded wrong from the beginning and I had to switch back after a few hours. It sounded way too black and heavy, bass was emphasized and midrange was gone. The problem was that my power cords were too thick so I had to modify them until I could try extra isolation again. With modded Valhalla power cords I was able to use 5 steps of vibration isolation for my DAC.

The same is true for power conditioners, my Cary 303/300 transport uses 2 steps of power conditioning (Ultimate Outlet -> P300). I plugged it into the wall and it was the most horrible thing I ever experienced, my ears were hurting from the edginess after 5 minutes.
Later I plugged the Cary into the UO and it was about half the performance of UO + P300.

I also tried it with my computer transport which is connected to UO. I plugged it into the wall and it didn't sound that bad. Why? Because the Valhalla for my computer hasn't been modified to compensate for the extra power conditioning.

I found that for every power conditioner you add to the path you need to make the power cord thinner. The same is true for vibration isolation as well.

You need to compensate for everything, it takes lot of experience to know all the variables, even the temperature matters. I need to keep my headphones constantly burning in at 46dB volume to get the best sound. If I use 40dB then it sounds edgy with lack of detail. I listen at 60dB volume and need to write down into my logs whenever I listen to music, I also write down which albums I listen to because each one has different sounds in them. I listen 4+ hours a day.
If I only listen an hour a day I need to use 50dB burn-in volume to keep the drivers at acceptable performance. If I turn off the system it takes a couple weeks at 55dB to get the synergy back.

Star56

01-04-07, 12:16 AM

It is as if the scientific revolutions of the 16th-19th century never happened.

Peer reviewed evidence? Nah. Publications in refereed acoustic/psychophysics journals? Nah.

I wrap ancient vines around my preamp as purified air circulates in and around my components. Wow..opens up the soundstage to an incredible degree.

In fact, hanging ancient Mayan artifacts around the room creates a neural link directly to my auditory cortex.

It is the synergy of the artifacts and the vines that produce the audible difference that anyone with higher quality equipment can appreciate.

I swear this is all true.....I can hear it....that makes it so.......

Steve Bruzonsky

01-04-07, 01:11 AM

I agree, I put an extra step of isolation feet under the components and it sounded completely messed up. It sounded wrong from the beginning and I had to switch back after a few hours. It sounded way too black and heavy, bass was emphasized and midrange was gone. The problem was that my power cords were too thick so I had to modify them until I could try extra isolation again. With modded Valhalla power cords I was able to use 5 steps of vibration isolation for my DAC.

The same is true for power conditioners, my Cary 303/300 transport uses 2 steps of power conditioning (Ultimate Outlet -> P300). I plugged it into the wall and it was the most horrible thing I ever experienced, my ears were hurting from the edginess after 5 minutes.
Later I plugged the Cary into the UO and it was about half the performance of UO + P300.

I also tried it with my computer transport which is connected to UO. I plugged it into the wall and it didn't sound that bad. Why? Because the Valhalla for my computer hasn't been modified to compensate for the extra power conditioning.

I found that for every power conditioner you add to the path you need to make the power cord thinner. The same is true for vibration isolation as well.

You need to compensate for everything, it takes lot of experience to know all the variables, even the temperature matters. I need to keep my headphones constantly burning in at 46dB volume to get the best sound. If I use 40dB then it sounds edgy with lack of detail. I listen at 60dB volume and need to write down into my logs whenever I listen to music, I also write down which albums I listen to because each one has different sounds in them. I listen 4+ hours a day.
If I only listen an hour a day I need to use 50dB burn-in volume to keep the drivers at acceptable performance. If I turn off the system it takes a couple weeks at 55dB to get the synergy back.

I can just see it now. New product line to be unveiled at CES. "Valhalla power and tweak accessories". Heavy power conditioners and thin yarn like power cords.
Heavy footers and light plastic component racks. What's next? Oh - I guess I should try one of my audiophile power cords (sorry, I use them only in my home theater system) on my PC so it will turn my old Pentium into a new dual core speed, and transform Windows Me into Vista.

Tweaks and power conditioners do work properly applied.
But that's the catch. There's a lot of crap out there. Not everything is Valhalla or the road to Asgard and sonic nirvana.

Curt Palme

01-04-07, 08:32 AM

Steve Bruzonsky

01-04-07, 08:48 AM

What's scary is that if Valhalla was put in charge of marketing and toned down his diatribe about 40%, he'd actually make a good sales rep for those that believe that cables and other esoteric tweaks make a difference.

What makes you think the guy doesn't have a real name, that he isn't the owner of some major cable company, and that he has a fictitious persona here at AVS full of BS! Do you really think that anyone really is the outragreous (far worse than me during my worst days) foolish outlandish rediculous tweaker than Valhalla portrays himself to be? I tell you Valhalla is simply a product of Curt's
anti-tweaking hatred manifested to life on AVS Forum, engineered to be so foolish outlandish rediculous that tweaking looks absolutely stupid, which is exactly the point Curt hammers home all the time. Heck, I'd think that Curt was a product of tweakers' imagination, except that his reburbished projectors actually exist. :D

Curt Palme

01-04-07, 08:54 AM

1) Even a tweaker hater wouldn't go as far as butchering high end audio equipment with insanely poor soldering jobs, then go and post pix about it.

2) Tweaker haters don't go around posting pix of them making/eating food and wandering around in near nekkidness and post videos of it.

3) Have you SEEN the pix of Valhalla?

No, he's real.

lcaillo

01-04-07, 02:00 PM

Tweaks and power conditioners do work properly applied.
But that's the catch. There's a lot of crap out there. Not everything is Valhalla or the road to Asgard and sonic nirvana.

So how can we sort out the crap from the effective? Seems like there should be some objective means to sort out someting as straightforward as power supply effects.

Allen Fleener

01-04-07, 07:19 PM

Minardi2

01-04-07, 11:03 PM

I find it interesting when folks don't understand or get a thing, their knee jerk reaction is to condemn and vilify those who have proven to themselves the reality of the thing.

I can not see how some unknown people doing an double blind test would be better FOR ME then doing the test my self. I have learned that since I will be paying for it I, darned well, will decide for my self if it is real or hype.

If it is hype I move on if it is real I then must decide if it is worth it TO ME.

Having someone else who doesn't get it trying to test it is usually self defeating.

Sadly in this industry like all others there are charltons who will try to get you to buy into their brand of hype. I mean really, do you honestly think that the $400 BOSE wave radio/ cd player can truly replace an complete rack of equipment all the while sounding better? Bring that bad boy over to my house and let's see.

As consumers we must always and continually be vigilant as to what, how and why we buy. This requires some effort and investigation before we sign on the bottom line. This is what a test drive is all about.
This is the best post I've read in the slag that has become these threads about power conditioners and the like. If there was any doubt after reading them that opinions are like @ssholes in that everyone's got one, there shouldn't be now.

I have a PS Audio PPP on order and look forward to putting it in my home theater system to see what it can do. If the answer is nothing, I send it back, no harm no foul. For some to universally criticize conditioners is ignorant. But this is the internet and you don't need to be intelligent to use it.

Dizzman

01-05-07, 01:55 AM

I was reading through that thread and i did not see nearly as many attacks on power conditioners as attacks on those singing the praises of things being used as a band-aid where there were many other FAR BETTER things that could be done first to clean up the power and grounding.

As well, the attacks were being leveled against products with NO actual technical specs or very questionable ones. There are great products out there that get used all the time. i would never build a rack (and i have likely seen and built more of them than most here combined) without a furman line conditioner in it. I swear by Furman and they can give me reams of paperwork as to what they do and why they protect elements of my system.

Power is well understood. We know very clearly what we want to be delivered to a power supply. It can be tested and measured QUITE easily. Pseudo science claims piss many of us off.

lcaillo

01-05-07, 06:40 AM

This is the best post I've read in the slag that has become these threads about power conditioners and the like. If there was any doubt after reading them that opinions are like @ssholes in that everyone's got one, there shouldn't be now.

I have a PS Audio PPP on order and look forward to putting it in my home theater system to see what it can do. If the answer is nothing, I send it back, no harm no foul. For some to universally criticize conditioners is ignorant. But this is the internet and you don't need to be intelligent to use it.

So how are you going to determine if it does something, nothing, or whether you are experiencing expectation or placebo effects?

I criticize the expectation that power conditioners will help video displays, but not out of ignorance at all. It is after testing many power supplies in displays to determine what kind of noise they pass and to what degree one might expect line noise to have an effect. I have never found any reason to believe that they should have much effect on most video. Audio can be another matter, but there I remain somewhat skeptical as well. Even so, I continue to have an open mind on the matter and contimue to ask reasonable technical questions that no one seems able to answer. The lack of any serious measurements or testing is astounding.

alan halvorson

01-05-07, 04:05 PM

I use to pick them up long time ago at tower records, now I can't even go to tower records anymore

The Audio Critic magazine is no longer published but Peter Aczel still posts opinions and reviews to his web site The Audio Critic (www.theaudiocritic.com). The downside is that he doesn't do either very often anymore, sometimes taking two months between postings, but what is there is very much worth reading.

Greg_R

01-05-07, 04:42 PM

My criticisms are as follows:

- Many power conditioner owners have never had their power tested to determine if and where a problem exists. In addition, they have never had their power tested after the tweak has been added. A simple meter with a max/min function (~$150) would be able to analyze voltage level problems.
- A properly designed power supply in a component is capable of overcoming a variety of power quality issues (low / high voltage, noise, etc.).
- Fancy A/C power waveform generation for audio. What makes this option any better than a clean sine wave?
- Battery backup is a good idea for bulb displays but power regeneration is rarely required.

Having said that, I recognize that some people have actual power delivery problems (most notable is Franz). In my home (Portland suburbs) I've measured voltage dips down to 104V. Unfortunately, this causes my Dish network receiver to crash (yet all other equipment is rock solid). The Dish unit is a good example of poor power supply design. I got a <$100 UPS with automatic voltage regulation to fix the issue. AVR doesn't regenerate anything... it just keeps the voltage at 115V (cheap UPS's only kick on after the power dips to 70V or so).

ValhallaPC

01-05-07, 05:47 PM

Power is well understood. We know very clearly what we want to be delivered to a power supply. It can be tested and measured QUITE easily. Pseudo science claims piss many of us off.It's like being a little fish in a big pond who tries to prevent other fish from exploring the rest of the pond because he doesn't want other fish to know more than he does.
We are lucky there aren't many of them, otherwise we would still be apes. If we would put all the skeptics on another planet they would devolve...

The difference between power conditioner and wall is as big as between a 720p and 1080p display. Some people can't see a difference because they look too far away, but it gets pretty obvious when moving your eyes closer. It's the same thing with audio, if you have a crappy system it's like you look at the display from a mile away. The better your system becomes the closer your eyes will be.

lcaillo

01-05-07, 05:59 PM

We are lucky there aren't many of them, otherwise we would still be apes. If we would put all the skeptics on another planet they would devolve...

So you believe skepticism and the pursuit of science is de-evolutionary? You can't really believe the things you post and you are the worlds greatest joker, right?

When trying to better understand the science and technology behind experience becomes de-evolutionary, society will have deteriorated beyond recovery. I can assure you that there are those of us that will never allow that to happen. We will always ask relevant questions and wonder.

Minardi2

01-05-07, 06:06 PM

[QUOTE=lcaillo]So how are you going to determine if it does something, nothing, or whether you are experiencing expectation or placebo effects?

I'll acclimate myself to the sound and video without the PPP, then put it in the system, but will likely have my girlfriend do the power hook ups so I don't know which I'm listening too.

Don't take this as an affirmation of blind testing though. I recently compared a 20 year old guitar cable I got free to a Planet Waves model where I knew which I was playing through . . . couldn't tell a difference so I took the Planet Waves back. And with my gear (Mesa Mark IV half stack and Music Man Van Halen guitars) I could easily distinguish differences if they were there.

ValhallaPC

01-05-07, 06:44 PM

So you believe skepticism and the pursuit of science is de-evolutionary? You can't really believe the things you post and you are the worlds greatest joker, right?

I don't believe in anything, not even what I'm writing right now. But apparently the skeptics think they already know everything, which makes them a believer in things that aren't true. They have already made up their minds. It's placebo pure and simple.

We will always ask relevant questions and wonder.
If a skeptic thinks he already knows everything, why would he ask questions? They are so afraid of things they can't understand that they become narrow-minded and lock themselves into a small box, that's where they feel the most safe.

Imagine a scientist who experiments and discovers new cures for diseases, he is open-minded and tries something new that shouldn't make a difference. But then a skeptic comes and doesn't allow him to do it because he think he already knows everything, and then he goes and posts in forums to tell everyone else not to do it either. In the end the skeptic is responsible for the death of billions of people. The skeptics want to be big and special, and in the end the only way to do that is what I said above, the box isn't big enough for everyone...

Michael Grant

01-05-07, 07:15 PM

I don't believe in anything, not even what I'm writing right now.In other words, you're a skeptic.

Or you just toss off postmoderrnist cliches when it seems stylish to do so, even though you clearly don't actually practice the philosophy.But then a skeptic comes and doesn't allow him to do it because he think he already knows everythingOh how absurd. Nobody here is preventing anyone from trying anything. This is a discussion forum for goodness sake. For every skeptic talking here there are others offering a counterargument. (And then there is you.) People reading can make up their own minds as to who's more credible.

AV Doogie

01-05-07, 07:20 PM

Haven't you heard; 'The more you learn....the less you know'. This is a fact of life.

Dizzman

01-05-07, 07:24 PM

It's like being a little fish in a big pond who tries to prevent other fish from exploring the rest of the pond because he doesn't want other fish to know more than he does.
We are lucky there aren't many of them, otherwise we would still be apes. If we would put all the skeptics on another planet they would devolve...

The difference between power conditioner and wall is as big as between a 720p and 1080p display. Some people can't see a difference because they look too far away, but it gets pretty obvious when moving your eyes closer. It's the same thing with audio, if you have a crappy system it's like you look at the display from a mile away. The better your system becomes the closer your eyes will be.

You are such a friggin moron. and your every post only confirms it more.

All i said is fix your power then look at boxes. and look for one that actually does something.

ValhallaPC

01-05-07, 07:33 PM

You are such a friggin moron. and your every post only confirms it more.

All i said is fix your power then look at boxes. and look for one that actually does something.
The boxes are fixing the power...

It's quite hard to go inside other people's homes and turn off all their noisy equipment. Even if you turn it all off there's still the problem of the audio gear themselves. All of them need to be isolated from each other.

You also need the CleanWave function which PS Audio has, IMO it's one of the best things that has ever happened to audio, right after MultiWave. I'm paying thousands of dollars just to get CleanWave for my computer, it's that good. I heard a difference when I didn't use it for 15 minutes.

http://www6.head-fi.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2293725&postcount=31

After 19 hours without demagnetizing it sounded HORRIBLE:( . Everything was masked with brightness, I couldn't hear transients, highs were like a big block of brightness and mid-range sounded muddy, every album was like this. It didn't sound like real life.

But then I did the 60 second Clean Sweep for the computer...

OH MY GOD! :eek: Everything sounds SHARP with subtle transients everywhere, they are not masked with brightness anymore! Each album is very sharp and transparent. There's more blackness in between transients.
I can't be without this.

This is sad. Now I need to have loud 40cm fan running on max speed.

Steve Bruzonsky

01-05-07, 07:57 PM

You are such a friggin moron. and your every post only confirms it more.

All i said is fix your power then look at boxes. and look for one that actually does something.

Damn. Dizzman agrees with me. My power has been fixed. 19 dedicated 20 amp 10 guage circuits for 19 outlet pairs. Each tied to 8 foot copper ground rod, which then ties to house ground nearby. Isolated transformer for power panel. Each circuit on same phase. My grounding is excellent. But the PS Audio Power Plants have improved upon this.

I wouldn't call Valhalla a "moron", though. What I think though I don't always communicate. I still think Valhalla is simply a web persona getting you guys to gore up and that he really doesn't do or believe all this stuff.

ValhallaPC

01-05-07, 08:30 PM

Damn. Dizzman agrees with me. My power has been fixed. 19 dedicated 20 amp 10 guage circuits for 19 outlet pairs. Each tied to 8 foot copper ground rod, which then ties to house ground nearby. Isolated transformer for power panel. Each circuit on same phase. My grounding is excellent. But the PS Audio Power Plants have improved upon this.
Grounding is important yes. I have a dedicated ground for my Nordost Valhalla interconnect and it made the biggest improvement I have ever heard, it's number 1 on my list (link (http://www6.head-fi.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2535469&postcount=135)). I'm using Nordost Valkyrja speaker wiring to ground the shield. It has 96% the speed of light, you need to remove the noise from the shield fast.

I wouldn't call Valhalla a "moron", though. What I think though I don't always communicate. I still think Valhalla is simply a web persona getting you guys to gore up and that he really doesn't do or believe all this stuff.
If I don't believe, why would I spend all my life savings on it? I have videos:
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=Patrick821

And pictures: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=191136

I was a skeptic of digital cables and was disappointed of the Valhalla digital cable ($2000) because it gave too much warmth, it actually removed the edginess that was compensating for my muddy system, so I started modding my Valhalla power cords and it fixed the problem. I'm so much closer to the music it is unbelievable.
Now the difference between power conditioners is literally night and day, anyone could hear it. When I change MultiWave settings the sound completely changes!

Like I said earlier, you need to be closer to your system to hear big differences. When I was using tubes and blurry brown DACs I was very far away. When I started using proper equipment I was very close but it sounded too analytical and bright, but 5 steps of vibration isolation, ERS Paper, hardwired cables and bypassed fuses fixed that problem.
Half year of tweaking made a bigger difference to my system than years before that, and it almost didn't cost a thing.

Michael Grant

01-05-07, 08:41 PM

I don't believe in anything, not even what I'm writing right now.
If I don't believe, why would I spend all my life savings on it?Hmm.

ValhallaPC

01-05-07, 09:03 PM

Hmm.If you don't contradict yourself you are narrow-minded.

I don't believe power or cables make a difference and I don't believe they don't either. If music doesn't sound like real life then there is a problem and it needs fixing. Using proper power makes it sound more like real life, so that's what I do, I give the components cleaner power. It doesn't mean I believe in it. I just spend my money on something that makes the biggest improvement for me.

I listen to the music with a neutral state of mind and search for problems, I don't actually enjoy (http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=199203) the music. If I change something in the system which causes me to hear less problems, then I found something and I experiment further. It still doesn't mean I believe in it. I just continue that's all. Audiophilia is a progressive sport, you keep building...
If I would build a tower, I still wouldn't believe it would exist, you know what I mean? If I can build it, why not do it? Same with curing diseases, if you can save lives, why not do it? Skeptics like to prevent further evolving that's why. They think they know everything about everything. They try to prevent audiophiles from building their audio system, because if a tweak makes a difference they would get jealous and they don't like that, they want to be big and important. They are taking away enjoyment from others because it makes them feel better about themselves.

Skeptics are deep in a hole they can't get out of while others can, whenever someone wants to get out of the hole they pull him back down. I have entered the hole to help others get out of it, I keep the skeptics busy with me down there while the others escape...

My audio system has increased my brain speed, especially from Valhalla cables, vibration isolation and MultiWave. I have made some discoveries because of it...I can't yet remember (http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=200506) them though.

Ron Party

01-05-07, 09:18 PM

I don't believe in anything, not even what I'm writing right now.
If you don't contradict yourself you are narrow-minded.
While I don't subscribe to most, if any at all, of the recommendations or viewpoints of ValhallaPC, I gotta say that sometimes he can sure wax poetic!

Michael Grant

01-05-07, 09:45 PM

If you don't contradict yourself you are narrow-minded.Is that one of those things you do believe or don't believe?

No. If you don't contradict yourself, then you are perfect (or empty). And none of us is that. But to do so, so egregiously, in such a short time, that's just... special.

Do they have short buses in Sweden?

ValhallaPC

01-05-07, 09:48 PM

I can just see it now. New product line to be unveiled at CES. "Valhalla power and tweak accessories". Heavy power conditioners and thin yarn like power cords.
Heavy footers and light plastic component racks. What's next? Oh - I guess I should try one of my audiophile power cords (sorry, I use them only in my home theater system) on my PC so it will turn my old Pentium into a new dual core speed, and transform Windows Me into Vista.

Tweaks and power conditioners do work properly applied.
But that's the catch. There's a lot of crap out there. Not everything is Valhalla or the road to Asgard and sonic nirvana.
16 AWG is best for all my power equipment. 22 AWG is best for low-level signals. When I was using thicker wiring the attack and decay of each sound were cut off, it sounded muddy and incomplete. With proper size wiring I hear more detail. I'm now able to hear what vocalists are singing because I hear the endings of the words.

Fat wiring is only good for covering up flaws in the system. People say it sounds more "musical" then. With a proper system it sounds smoother than tubes because of higher resolution, it's a true smoothness instead of a fake one.

With ERS Paper there's a true black background instead of the fake background from a too fat cable that removes detail to make it appear blacker.

What's scary is that if Valhalla was put in charge of marketing and toned down his diatribe about 40%, he'd actually make a good sales rep for those that believe that cables and other esoteric tweaks make a difference.
Most people want to believe in the truth. But some people just want to believe in the lies they have made for themselves.

ValhallaPC

01-05-07, 10:00 PM

Is that one of those things you do believe or don't believe?

No. If you don't contradict yourself, then you are perfect. And none of us are that. But to do so, so egregiously, in such a short time, that's just... special.

Do they have short buses in Sweden?That's the problem with skeptics, they think they are perfect so they keep believing power conditioners don't make a difference. I haven't seen them contradicting themselves. I contradict myself every day because I'm not biased. I'm moving back and forth like a wave to both sides instead of being locked inside a tiny box. I have problem deciding what I will spend my money on, after 2 hours I have changed my mind. The only thing that makes sense is to spend the money on Valhalla power cables, because they last the rest of my life. Power conditioner is also a good buy because you can use it for both audio and video.

You know, video gear get obsolete after a few months, so it's best to buy the cheapest one and upgrade every two years. With a power conditioner you get little extra from the component you bought. When you upgrade the component, you can still get extra performance from the power conditioner!

Dizzman

01-05-07, 11:16 PM

I'm using Nordost Valkyrja speaker wiring to ground the shield. It has 96% the speed of light, you need to remove the noise from the shield fast.

this may be the funniest thing ever written on this forum!

Michael Grant

01-06-07, 12:04 AM

Don't worry Dizz, he doesn't really believe that.

patrickjherbert

01-06-07, 12:50 AM

If you don't contradict yourself you are narrow-minded.

Funny, I always thought that made you a rational thinker.

I listen to the music with a neutral state of mind and search for problems, I don't actually enjoy (http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=199203) the music.

Jesus, what ever happened to just rocking out?!? I mean, I don't want to date myself or anything...

jim.bennett

01-06-07, 01:36 AM

...So should I get a power conditioner or not? :confused: :D :o

AV Doogie

01-06-07, 10:50 AM

I'm using Nordost Valkyrja speaker wiring to ground the shield. It has 96% the speed of light, you need to remove the noise from the shield fast.
.

Holy Cows!!
You can achieve that kind of speed with all OFC copper wire. No real benefit there.

AV Doogie

01-06-07, 10:54 AM

...So should I get a power conditioner or not? :confused: :D :o

Jim,

I would seriously look at what kind of problems you may be having with power at your location. If you are looking for a solution to no problems, why buy a power conditioner? I would first look into purchasing a whole house surge suppression system installed at the main panel and then put a secondary unit at the equipment rack to protect your sensitive electronics. This makes me sleep better at night. Then I would carefully think of the outcome you want for your AV gear. A power conditioner may provide some benefit to you if the power is noisy or you have considerable transients/voltage sags. Otherwise I have a hard time telling you to buy something.

I provide PQ analysis and mitigation services to large industrial and commercial customers in the Midwest. JMHO

markrubin

01-06-07, 11:06 AM

I provide PQ analysis and mitigation services to large industrial and commercial customers in the Midwest. JMHO

care to comment on claims made by power conditioner companies that their devices, which feature clean sine wave power, can improve PQ of a plasma display (or any display with a switching power supply)?

I can understand the benefits of a power conditioner in analog audio applications, but why worry about a perfect sine wave when the switching PS in a plasma display is going to rectify the power anyway?

Alimentall

01-06-07, 12:22 PM

I don't believe in anything, not even what I'm writing right now. But apparently the skeptics think they already know everything, which makes them a believer in things that aren't true. They have already made up their minds. It's placebo pure and simple.

Skeptics are the people that actually bother to test stuff and pursue science over old wive's tales.

AV Doogie

01-06-07, 12:36 PM

I can if you are truly interested. Let me start with a preface.

Many years ago we had power supplies which were full wave rectified units with ample capacitive filtering. These type of power supplies were capable of withstanding short duration power anomalies while providing stable power to the attached equipment. These supplies were typically overengineered due to the (in)efficiency of these types of power supplies.

Today, engineering companies have essentially 'engineered' the excess materials and tolerances out of the power supplies. Most of these power supplies are 'switching' power supplies. A switching power supply typically uses triacs or other 'transistor' type technology to acquire energy from the sine wave in small 'switched' increments. The switching power supply uses the sine wave function to determine where the 'switching' occurs in the cycle to provide energy to the following filtering and power supply circuitry. Now imagine if the sine wave is significantly distorted. Distortion can come from a number of sources such as other 'switched' power supplies like computers, AV equipment power supplies, flourescent lighting and dimmer switches.

Well if the sine wave is distorted enough, the 'switching' power supply may have a problem knowing when to take energy from the sine wave, or may miss the switching location altogether. When this happens, you get a possible dip in the power supply output and your electronic equipment downstream malfunctions or provides a poor response, the type of problem is totally dependent upon the sensitivity of the equipment and type of electronics involved. Is this clear so far.

A power conditioner, which comes in multiple flavors, can provide some benefit in the above example. Some power conditioners are nothing more than filtering devices which will help to eliminate radio frequency and electro magnetic garbage from the power system. Most people will not see a benefit from this type of filtering because the switching power supply filtering (in Electronic equipment) will not allow this type of 'stuff' to pass anyhow, given the filtering involved with the switching power supply built into the equipment. Higher level power conditioning equipement will attempt to reconstruct or regenerate the sine wave output to varying levels. A true sine wave output device is usually expensive due to the heavy filtering and circuit topologies.

I have a hard time believing that typical power conditioning devices are gonna make a big difference in AV quality. First, most PQ problems are generated by internal sources and not the Utility company. Second, for a switching power supply to have the types of hiccups mentioned above, you would need extremely high harmonic content within the facility (residence) to make the power supplies hiccup. I would venture a guess of voltage distortion in excess of 15-20% is required to make switching power supplies hiccup on a regular basis. I don't typically see this magnitude of distortion figure within heavy industrial or co-location (data) centers with extremely large amounts of switching power supplies or non linear power systems on machines (plastic injection molding for example), so this should not exist at a residence. Your residence will not typically have voltage distortion in excess of 8-10%. Yes, I have actually measured power quality at a few residential locations with typical HT setups in addition to my own system... I am a geek at heart. Third, the switching power supplies in most equipment are built to supply the equipment they are attached to. These supplies are still relatively robust, but will suffer from voltage dropouts and transients which are caused by the utility. Dropouts and transients (overvoltage conditions) are generally not mitigated by typical power conditioning equipment. Higher end (read expensive) equipment may have a decent surge suppression circuit but will require some sort of energy storage and sine wave reconstruction circuitry (or filtering) to overcome the voltage dropouts/sags or dips. I could go into the problems using cheap UPS units with AV equipment but that would belong in the tweaks thread.... I think.

I am of the belief that, invest in equipment which makes sense from a scientific or measureable standpoint first, then go for the esoteric stuff which may/may not produce measureable improvements, but may provide intangible benefits. I have never seen any blind tests indicating that power conditioning equipment, at least typical equipment, makes a noticeable difference in AV quality. ...but it can provide peace of mind for some.

Hope this helps.

Alimentall

01-06-07, 01:03 PM

Jonomega

01-06-07, 01:25 PM

snip... a lot of good info

Hope this helps.

This is what keeps me coming back to this forum. It'd be excellent if AVS could be split into two sides: "Technical: Learn something" and "Bicker Bicker Bicker..." that way, I don't have to swim through the mud :)

Steve Bruzonsky

01-06-07, 01:32 PM

Curt Palme

01-06-07, 01:40 PM

Thanks for good info. I take it from the above that technically by using a power regenerator which reconstructs a 60 Hz sinewave properly that this can conceivably improve the performance of a switching power supply.

The operation principles are very well described by AV, well done!

Steve, I'll say NO to your above statements, but I have to fly out the door right now, so I'll explain later when I get back.

This captivating segment of 'As the Power Generator Turns' will have to be continued later.. :p

markrubin

01-06-07, 01:42 PM

I agree some level of power conditioning is important

slightly OT: an example of the problems an inexpensive/poorly designed PS can cause is with a popular line of RF remote controls that had response issues when used with the RF processor:

this problem has gone on for some time without being resolved: it was thought there were RF reception issues but ...

http://www.remotecentral.com/cgi-bin/mboard/complete/thread.cgi?335,1

MauneyM

01-06-07, 02:34 PM

Thanks for good info. I take it from the above that technically by using a power regenerator which reconstructs a 60 Hz sinewave properly that this can conceivably improve the performance of a switching power supply.

Yes, but only if there was a serious problem with the utility feed to begin with. This is not the case for most locations in the US.

As he rightly said, most (85% is the industry-accepted number) PQ (Power Quality) problems originate from the equipment itself, and NOT from the utility feed. Now, it might be nice to separate your lighting dimmers from your audio power, and a high-$$$ 'regenerator' (inverter is the correct term, BTW) can do this, but it's rather like using a sledgehammer to swat a fly. It's much easier and less expensive to simply arrange your power circuits correctly and dedicate a phase in a dedicated sub-panel to your sensitive gear. With proper design, grounding, and minimal filtering & TVSS, you can solve the vast majority of PQ issues. It's only in a rare case of severe problems, like major voltage fluctuations or amassively under-sized service that you would need anything beyond these simple (and inexpensive) mitigation devices.

Steve Bruzonsky

01-06-07, 02:42 PM

Yes, but only if there was a serious problem with the utility feed to begin with. This is not the case for most locations in the US.

As he rightly said, most (85% is the industry-accepted number) PQ (Power Quality) problems originate from the equipment itself, and NOT from the utility feed. Now, it might be nice to separate your lighting dimmers from your audio power, and a high-$$$ 'regenerator' (inverter is the correct term, BTW) can do this, but it's rather like using a sledgehammer to swat a fly. It's much easier and less expensive to simply arrange your power circuits correctly and dedicate a phase in a dedicated sub-panel to your sensitive gear. With proper design, grounding, and minimal filtering & TVSS, you can solve the vast majority of PQ issues. It's only in a rare case of severe problems, like major voltage fluctuations or amassively under-sized service that you would need anything beyond these simple (and inexpensive) mitigation devices.

I appreciate what youa re saying. But I've done what you say, arranged my power circuits correctly and dedicated a subpanel same phase to my gear, isolated from panel for rest of home which includes home theater lighting and AC.
Yet the PS Audio power regenerators clearly show video improvement (I appreciate you dispute that, and that's fine, but I have no doubt). And I agree with you that if possible these structural AC things should be done first, as I did them first.

AV Doogie

01-06-07, 03:47 PM

Thanks for good info. I take it from the above that technically by using a power regenerator which reconstructs a 60 Hz sinewave properly that this can conceivably improve the performance of a switching power supply.

Concievably, YES. Most of the problems we find, start with poor grounding installations and improper bonding between the ground and neutral and/or ground looping within the facility. After all of this is taken care of then I start looking at the PQ mitigation equipment such as filtering, surge suppression, balanced power and UPS, etc. This is the direction we take with each customer.

The basics have to be correct in the first place :)

lcaillo

01-06-07, 03:51 PM

Well if the sine wave is distorted enough, the 'switching' power supply may have a problem knowing when to take energy from the sine wave, or may miss the switching location altogether. When this happens, you get a possible dip in the power supply output and your electronic equipment downstream malfunctions or provides a poor response, the type of problem is totally dependent upon the sensitivity of the equipment and type of electronics involved. Is this clear so far.

It is clear that you do not understand how modern SMPS operate. Virtually all modern switching power supplies in video equipment full wave rectify and filter the a.c. to d.c before applying it to the switching converter. Then the switching device(s) apply the d.c. in pulses at a frequency between about 50 and 150kHz to the switching transformer. On the secondary side it is rectified, usually by a high speed fast recovery diode, and filtered. It is usually further filtered and regulated before being applied to the circuits in the set. There is often some type of feedback to the primary switching circuit that affects the switching frequency to vary the power generated by the circuit.

It makes no difference how distorted the waveform is nor how imprecise the switching points are in the original line a.c. wave because it is fully rectified before being supplied as d.c. to the switching circuits. In fact, these supplies are incredibly robust in terms of being able to deal with voltage swings and output the same voltage and current. Any low level noise on the line that might survive the primary filtering and rectification, will not likely survive conversion through the switching transformer. If it is in the band that the transformer will pass, it will be miniscule relative to the distortion and voltage swing of the switching pulse itself. It will almost certainly be undetectable on the secondary side after rectification and filtering. I have searched for it many times.

I have observce line noise on the a.c. line and tried to find remnants of it on the secondary side of power supplies. I have also verified that many power conditioners do remove the line noise. But what good are they if the noise never reaches the video circuits anyway? The noise in most video power supplies is mostly from the swiching power supply itself, not remnants of line noise or distortion.

Mark is dead on. I have been saying this for some time. Conventional supplies can conceivably pass some line noise and distortion and they are found in audio products such as amps and receivers commonly. Even here the feect is mimimal, IME, but it can be found at least to a degree in severe cases. With respect to Switching power supplies found in nearly all video equipment other than a few higher end sources and processors, I have yet to see evidence nor hear a reasonable explanation of how line noise can survive the conversion through the power supply.

AV Doogie

01-06-07, 04:07 PM

It is clear that you do not understand how modern SMPS operate. Virtually all modern switching power supplies in video equipment full wave rectify and filter the a.c. to d.c before applying it to the switching converter. Then the switching device(s) apply the d.c. in pulses at a frequency between about 50 and 150kHz to the switching transformer. On the secondary side it is rectified, usually by a high speed fast recovery diode, and filtered. It is usually further filtered and regulated before being applied to the circuits in the set. There is often some type of feedback to the primary switching circuit that affects the switching frequency to vary the power generated by the circuit.

It makes no difference how distorted the waveform is nor how imprecise the switching points are in the original line a.c. wave because it is fully rectified before being supplied as d.c. to the switching circuits. In fact, these supplies are incredibly robust in terms of being able to deal with voltage swings and output the same voltage and current. Any low level noise on the line that might survive the primary filtering and rectification, will not likely survive conversion through the switching transformer. If it is in the band that the transformer will pass, it will be miniscule relative to the distortion and voltage swing of the switching pulse itself. It will almost certainly be undetectable on the secondary side after rectification and filtering. I have searched for it many times.

I have observce line noise on the a.c. line and tried to find remnants of it on the secondary side of power supplies. I have also verified that many power conditioners do remove the line noise. But what good are they if the noise never reaches the video circuits anyway? The noise in most video power supplies is mostly from the swiching power supply itself, not remnants of line noise or distortion.

Mark is dead on. I have been saying this for some time. Conventional supplies can conceivably pass some line noise and distortion and they are found in audio products such as amps and receivers commonly. Even here the feect is mimimal, IME, but it can be found at least to a degree in severe cases. With respect to Switching power supplies found in nearly all video equipment other than a few higher end sources and processors, I have yet to see evidence nor hear a reasonable explanation of how line noise can survive the conversion through the power supply.

It is clear that you are not trying to help here. I am trying to explain the basic principles behind a switching supply and point out how it can be possibly affected. Your modern incarnation simply adds additional information to an already confusing situation. And 'virutually' all SMPS supplies does not mean 'All of them'. I find it interesting that you know what type of switching power supply each manufacturer is using in each piece of equipment. If you want to help someone understand the situation...great. Otherwise, bugger off.

When looking for line noise and analyzing power quality, what kind of equipment do you use?

Curt Palme

01-06-07, 04:57 PM

Yikes, I'm back and now will wedge myself between the arguing techs...;)

Steve, the reason I said 'no' to whether a power line conditioner will make any difference with an SMPS is the reason given here:

Virtually all modern switching power supplies in video equipment full wave rectify and filter the a.c. to d.c before applying it to the switching converter. Then the switching device(s) apply the d.c. in pulses at a frequency between about 50 and 150kHz to the switching transformer. On the secondary side it is rectified, usually by a high speed fast recovery diode, and filtered. It is usually further filtered and regulated before being applied to the circuits in the set. There is often some type of feedback to the primary switching circuit that affects the switching frequency to vary the power generated by the circuit.

It makes no difference how distorted the waveform is nor how imprecise the switching points are in the original line a.c. wave because it is fully rectified before being supplied as d.c. to the switching circuits. In fact, these supplies are incredibly robust in terms of being able to deal with voltage swings and output the same voltage and current.

So I agree, since the switching part of the power supply doesn't start until AFTER the incoming AC is filtered, I don't think a solid 120 volt AC input with maybe some glitches on it (Caused by refrigerator startups, slight voltage fluctuations, etc) will affect what comes out of the SMPS. (again, we're talking real life situations and installations, not the Chevy Chase scenario of someone plugging 15,000 watts of Xmas lights that pulse on and off into the same breaker panel as your stereo, etc). :D

We all pretty much agree, SMPS's are VERY noisy. The switching transformer is run on square waves at 100-150Khz generally, and square waves have harmonics into the Mhz range, albeit low level harmonics. Clean AC input power won't change the noisiness of the SMPS, so again, I can't see the conditioner making a difference.

AV has already outlined how brute force non SMPS power supplies have massive filtering, so I won't repeat that here.

Steve, I will come down one day, and you'll show me how your conditioners affect your a/v system. I consider myself to have a good set of ears, so we'll see what happens..:)

ValhallaPC

01-06-07, 05:00 PM

Skeptics are the people that actually bother to test stuff and pursue science over old wive's tales.
That's the problem, they think they already know everything so they don't bother to test them. If they do test them they measure something silly that doesn't mean a thing, like frequency response of speakers. They don't actually use their ears for testing because they make themselves believe they don't hear a difference. It's placebo.

Steve, I'll say NO to your above statements, but I have to fly out the door right now, so I'll explain later when I get back.

This captivating segment of 'As the Power Generator Turns' will have to be continued later.. :p

Ego man: NO because I say so, I don't need to explain right now because I am so big and important, you must wait until the master returns. I am all knowing.
Truth boy: But...
Ego man: Silence!

ValhallaPC

01-06-07, 05:09 PM

Steve, I will come down one day, and you'll show me how your conditioners affect your a/v system. I consider myself to have a good set of ears, so we'll see what happens..:)How can anyone hear a difference in an unknown system? It takes years to get used to it. Try a power conditioner in your own system, maybe you can borrow the Premier from Steve?

ValhallaPC

01-06-07, 05:15 PM

Okay, here's what bothers me. The folks that go on and on about power conditioners are the ones that bought exotic gear that *theoretically* is all about their power supply!!!! So, you're buying these $20K+ amplifiers and then you *still* need to buy expensive power cables and conditioners?

That tells me that either:

a) The high-end gear has crap power supplies
b) It's mostly just BS

Seriously, a good power supply on a good piece of gear should be essentially perfect no matter how much crap is in the power line. If it isn't, you probably paid too much.

All PSUs have a flaw, they perform best with clean power. It's like saying humans have a flaw when they can't drink gasoline instead of water.

Ego man: Let's have a toast.
Truth boy: But it's gasoline!
Ego man: Humans can drink anything, otherwise they have a big flaw in their design.
Truth boy: But...
Ego man: No buts! Now drink up!!

Art Sonneborn

01-06-07, 05:21 PM

AV Doogie

01-06-07, 05:30 PM

Curt,

I like your approach.

Switching power supplies are gonna be with us for a long time. But we can deal with them. Just don't get caught up in the hype.

A tip we give customers:
Check the voltage level from the return (neutral) to the ground at the outlet location to see what kind of variance you get. We typically find that if this volage level is in excess of 0.5vrms you may have a bonding or ground loop issue. Most power conditioners will not deal with this issue.

Good luck

MauneyM

01-06-07, 05:41 PM

It makes no difference how distorted the waveform is nor how imprecise the switching points are in the original line a.c. wave because it is fully rectified before being supplied as d.c. to the switching circuits. In fact, these supplies are incredibly robust in terms of being able to deal with voltage swings and output the same voltage and current.

With all due respect, I've spent just a little bit too much time dealing with SMPS design problems to agree with you on this point. It is VERY possible for problems on the AC side of the rectifier to cause enough DC fluctuation to give the controller fits. I have seen this first-hand in a design and have proven in the lab that the effects were caused by widely-varying source impedances. Now, in fairness, we FIXED the problem by making the supply more robust, so this was not in a production design, but it CAN happen, and I don't have confidence that every product goes through the rigorous pre-release regimen testing that my company requires.

Frankly, I wouldn't doubt that some of the smaller equipment companies out there that focus on very esoteric audio issues might make a mistake in a SMPS design.

That said, it is true that noise or PQ issues, per se, will not be transmitted THROUGH the SMPS - it is an isolator. It is also true that unless there is something really, really wrong with the utility source (or you're riding several extremes simultaneously, like low voltage/high source impedance), the SMPS should either work or not work, with no significant changes due to the line.

MauneyM

01-06-07, 05:46 PM

Terrible analogy. A better one is like saying humans function better with bottled water than well water.

That's a PERFECT analogy. It depends on the well, and/or who bottled the water, doesn't it? Some wells give better water than anything in a bottle, while some are tainted. Some bottled water is garbage, while some is very high-quality.

However, to make the statement that a bottle of water MUST be better for you because it cost $50/liter and 'you can taste the difference'.........? It may be ultimately filtered and distilled to the point that it is 99.99999% H2O, but.......

FrantzM

01-06-07, 06:00 PM

It makes no difference how distorted the waveform is nor how imprecise the switching points are in the original line a.c. wave because it is fully rectified before being supplied as d.c. to the switching circuits. In fact, these supplies are incredibly robust in terms of being able to deal with voltage swings and output the same voltage and current. .

HI
I also beg to differ... WIthout going through the whole theory of it, I have personally observed the effect of bad power quality in my own Telecom/ISP business. I had a basic in line UPS of relative quality, line voltage was stable but waveform was horrendous.... Server and other PC would often freeze, moreover some PCs would not even turn on when the power was badly distorted , we invested in Dual conwersion Telecom UPS, Lorain to be precise big ugly Ferroresonant but stable and work forever ( I have the same type feeding my Audio and HT. They are in a soundproof concrete room outside the house)...
Power quality is a serious issue and its lack affect both performance and reliability of equipments. I have heard the differences on my Audio system, I have not bothered to verify this on video but I would assume that this could be the case as well. The effect on power quality on the sound are not necessarily subtle, they can be quite obvious... Modified sine-wave Inverters to take an extreme example induces audible buzz in the speakers Signal to noise ratio is severely affected.. not your audiophile "gritty" sound, often loud buzzing..
In my country the most popular form of power back-up is the DC/AC inverter (often with an automatic battery charger built-in, the contraption is called Inverter). The most common inverter is the one that provided "modified" sine wave a kind of staircase waveform trying to approximate a sine... SOme inexpensive UPS do not recognize these as an AC and would not charge their batteries when connected, some computers do not even turn on and all electrical motor buzz and have their lifespan severely curtailed. Switching to a true sine wave inverter eliminate most if not all of these problems.

Dizzman

01-06-07, 06:34 PM

in most homes in the US and other first world nations, power is just fine for virtually all electronics components.

Many of us have big noisy noise generating boxes in our houses somewhere.

The cleanliness of most ground SYSTEMS in these homes suck!

THere is far more gain on cleaning up grounding systems that the investment in boxes.

Is it possible that some of these boxes may additionally clean things up beyond that? Yes.
Is there an endless debate with no resolution on how much they fix the systems? Yes.

Will Vahalla weird guy quote this post in some incoherent nonsensical rant calling me ego boy? Likely.

ybsane

01-06-07, 06:54 PM

"The cleanliness of most ground SYSTEMS in these homes suck!"

Best answer of the day, How many Electricians have a Megger on their truck to check the Earth Ground at a customer's home?

Best Clean up you can do? Tighten all of the connections in your electrical panel and while you are at it check the ground rod connection outside your home and see if its loose and for that matter still attached?

Better yet, have your Electrician install 2-ground rods 6' apart with a new ground wire to your electrical panel and see what that does for cheap insurance.

I've posted this in a different post but go back to basic's people there is a reason for having problems in your system and if you troubleshoot instead of bandaiding it your gear will last longer and be much happier. :)

Curt Palme

01-06-07, 07:00 PM

The cleanliness of most..... SYSTEMS in these homes suck!

May I step in for him?

I just scoped the AC line in my shop. THe damn thing is all over the place. Damn, the waveform sweeps up and down at almost exactly 60Hz. No wonder I'm having issues, I don't get any DC reading at all.

Let me connect a 1 farad cap rated at 160 volts across the positive and negative plug terminals, that oughta clean it up..;)

Curt Palme

01-06-07, 07:04 PM

How can anyone hear a difference in an unknown system? It takes years to get used to it.

I agree. After 50, generally your hearing over 15Khz drops off, so it's a real drag. Every year I have to take the 12-15Khz sliders on my eq and bump them up another 3db..

Seriously, sometimes you have to wonder about equipment. The highly touted Faroudja scalers (DVP series anyways) use an offshore switching power supply. Replacement cost from Faroudja? $100 USD. It's the worst built POS I've seen. THe motherboard with the video processing is really well built, the SMPS is not. Also, the SMPS isn't shielded at all from the video path...Any of you that have a Faroudja, pop the cover and see of what I talketh about.

FrantzM, I see your point, but again, you're dealing with exceptions here. Same with people that still have aluminum wiring in their houses that are slowly oxidizing. I'm sure that a 70 volt AC output will cause most power supplies to act up, and in the case of linear power supplies for power amps, will cause the amps to clip way prematurely, but your example is far off the norm as to available quality of power.

MauneyM

01-06-07, 07:19 PM

I just scoped the AC line in my shop. THe damn thing is all over the place. Damn, the waveform sweeps up and down at almost exactly 60Hz. No wonder I'm having issues, I don't get any DC reading at all.

Let me connect a 1 farad cap rated at 160 volts across the positive and negative plug terminals, that oughta clean it up..;)

PLEASE.....turn on your video camera before doing this. We will all want to see just how much extra energy is freed up! I'd bet your lights will get brighter.....

[ROTFLMFAO.....]

BTW, ever hear of power factor correction caps (PFCs)?

Steve Bruzonsky

01-06-07, 07:59 PM

Steve, I will come down one day, and you'll show me how your conditioners affect your a/v system. I consider myself to have a good set of ears, so we'll see what happens..:)

Curt, I'd love to meet you. You me & Tim (Martin) can go have steak dinner!!!
(That's all Tim eats when he's out of his tube audio and CRT home)

Steve Bruzonsky

01-06-07, 08:04 PM

Will Vahalla weird guy quote this post in some incoherent nonsensical rant calling me ego boy? Likely.

Valhalla posts no meaningful stuff to this discussion. He is an example of the total extreme and makes me look moderate (and some of you think I'm wacky. HA!)

Steve Bruzonsky

01-06-07, 08:06 PM

Art Sonneborn

01-06-07, 08:23 PM

That's a PERFECT analogy. It depends on the well, and/or who bottled the water, doesn't it? Some wells give better water than anything in a bottle, while some are tainted. Some bottled water is garbage, while some is very high-quality.

However, to make the statement that a bottle of water MUST be better for you because it cost $50/liter and 'you can taste the difference'.........? It may be ultimately filtered and distilled to the point that it is 99.99999% H2O, but.......

And really the system works just as well with each. Of course it makes us feel better to drink the expensive water.

Art

ValhallaPC

01-06-07, 10:20 PM

[QUOTE=ValhallaPC]All PSUs have a flaw, they perform best with clean power. It's like saying humans have a flaw when they can't drink gasoline instead of water.

Terrible analogy. A better one is like saying humans function better with bottled water than well water.

Art
Further proof that skeptics lack open-mindedness. They can only think of simple and obvious things. They are sitting there with their measurement devices trying to figure out things. They measure all variables separately instead of all at once, that's the problem. When you add or remove a variable, everything else changes, but in their placebo world everything magically stays the same.
The best tool to measure multiple variables at the same time are the human ears. So why don't they do that? They want to live in their dream world that's why. They want to make themselves believe everything can be measured with a magic device.

MauneyM

01-06-07, 10:25 PM

[QUOTE=Art Sonneborn]The best tool to measure multiple variables at the same time are the human ears.

Ummm......this is just not true. Ask any lawyer, judge, cop, or psychologist. It has been proven time and time again that human eyewitnesses are among the LEAST reliable sources of information available. Why? Because people have an innate tendency to color the information they perceive based on perception.

One objective, repeatable test is worth a thousand expert opinions.

ValhallaPC

01-06-07, 10:42 PM

Valhalla posts no meaningful stuff to this discussion. He is an example of the total extreme and makes me look moderate (and some of you think I'm wacky. HA!)
Extreme are those who use stock cables and plug their audio system into the wall. Wanting the audio system to sound like real life is normal, believe me. Normal humans who listen to a "high-end" $$$$$$ system say "Why doesn't it sound like real life? Weird fetish people, they like their gear more than proper sound quality.", and when they listen to my system they ask "So? What is special?". Real life isn't anything special, because were are already in it and it's normal. All video gear aren't acceptable because they don't have proper real life simulations, I watched King Kong "High Definition" movie and just wanted to turn it off, horrible. If it's acceptable, then you are crazy. Imagine you are in a car crash and lose your legs, "No I don't need any legs, this is acceptable." Is that crazy or is it normal?
Wanting to fix problems is normal!

People who watch poor quality 1080p movies are living in a dream world that isn't real life. People who want movies to be a perfect simulation of real life, are they crazy or are they normal?

ValhallaPC

01-06-07, 10:45 PM

Ummm......this is just not true. Ask any lawyer, judge, cop, or psychologist. It has been proven time and time again that human eyewitnesses are among the LEAST reliable sources of information available. Why? Because people have an innate tendency to color the information they perceive based on perception.

One objective, repeatable test is worth a thousand expert opinions.
Human eyewitnesses are exposed to the sound only once. With the audio system you listen every day for years...

Curt Palme

01-07-07, 12:07 AM

While I don't spend a lot (OK, ANY!) time listening to esoteric stereos, the most realistic grand piano I ever heard through a sound system was an LP run through a tube preamp/amp, through some custom built home speakers with some massively complex crossover to take care of phasing problems.

(sorry, this was over 20 years ago, and I did a service call on a console TV at the guy's place. All I know is that they were vintage JBL 15s and a JBL driver on a wooden custom built horn.)

Why post this? 'Cause I've had two coolers on an empty stomach, and I still think me posting semi intoxicated makes more sense than Valhalla fully sober.

And yes, I'm a puss when it comes to drinking...;)

lcaillo

01-07-07, 08:48 AM

It is clear that you are not trying to help here. I am trying to explain the basic principles behind a switching supply and point out how it can be possibly affected. Your modern incarnation simply adds additional information to an already confusing situation. And 'virutually' all SMPS supplies does not mean 'All of them'. I find it interesting that you know what type of switching power supply each manufacturer is using in each piece of equipment. If you want to help someone understand the situation...great. Otherwise, bugger off.

When looking for line noise and analyzing power quality, what kind of equipment do you use?

You are simply wrong about how modern SMPS operate. I work on many different brands and types of displays and none operate the way that you described. Early switching designs might have, but I can't recall any consumer goods that would likely be used today that do. Check up on a few. You will find that all of them rectify before conversion.

When I have tried to identify noise passing from the a.c. line to the secondary of power supplies, I have used my 200mHz scope, observed the noise on the primary side, then searched the secondary side for that noise or harmonics of it. I have seen noise filtered by line conditioners, infact I use an old Adcom filter on my bench. It is not very sophisticated compared to regeneration technology, but it cleans up some noise generated by other equipment. Regardless, I have never seen the effect of that noise when not using it. It simply does not get past the power supplies in the displays. So regardless of how effective the filtering might be, if it never gets past the convertor, why will it make a difference?

You incorrect characterization of how SMPS operate is what causes confusion and is not helpful. There is one case that I can think of that might be affected by noise at the transition point, however, and this may be what you are thinking of or what has confused your understanding. Some units use a zero crossing detector to minimize the effects of inrush surges at startup, and IIRC some use it for power factor correction, but I have never heard of a case where an a.c. line caused problems with these. Poorly generated a.c. from a cheap UPS might, but we never use these, anyway.

I do wonder about the possibility of common mode noise and ground problems affecting display operation, but I have not experienced it directly. I suspect there may be some merit to balanced systems in this regard but they have their own potential ground implications.

lcaillo

01-07-07, 08:52 AM

Why post this? 'Cause I've had two coolers on an empty stomach, and I still think me posting semi intoxicated makes more sense than Valhalla fully sober.
And yes, I'm a puss when it comes to drinking...;)

It is nearly as entertaining, but I doubt that you could keep it up to compete with the volume of his posting. :)

lcaillo

01-07-07, 08:57 AM

A tip we give customers:
Check the voltage level from the return (neutral) to the ground at the outlet location to see what kind of variance you get. We typically find that if this volage level is in excess of 0.5vrms you may have a bonding or ground loop issue. Most power conditioners will not deal with this issue.
Good luck

This is very good advice and one should also check the grounding on cable, sat, and antenna installations. Faulty or missing grounds on these are the source of many problems in the real world.

Curt Palme

01-07-07, 08:58 AM

It is nearly as entertaining, but I doubt that you could keep it up to compete with the volume of his posting. :)

Actually I read what I typed last night, and no, I'm still a boring geek even when drunk.

lcaillo

01-07-07, 09:06 AM

HI
I also beg to differ... WIthout going through the whole theory of it, I have personally observed the effect of bad power quality in my own Telecom/ISP business. I had a basic in line UPS of relative quality, line voltage was stable but waveform was horrendous.... Server and other PC would often freeze, moreover some PCs would not even turn on when the power was badly distorted , we invested in Dual conwersion Telecom UPS, Lorain to be precise big ugly Ferroresonant but stable and work forever ( I have the same type feeding my Audio and HT. They are in a soundproof concrete room outside the house)...
Power quality is a serious issue and its lack affect both performance and reliability of equipments. I have heard the differences on my Audio system, I have not bothered to verify this on video but I would assume that this could be the case as well. The effect on power quality on the sound are not necessarily subtle, they can be quite obvious... Modified sine-wave Inverters to take an extreme example induces audible buzz in the speakers Signal to noise ratio is severely affected.. not your audiophile "gritty" sound, often loud buzzing..
In my country the most popular form of power back-up is the DC/AC inverter (often with an automatic battery charger built-in, the contraption is called Inverter). The most common inverter is the one that provided "modified" sine wave a kind of staircase waveform trying to approximate a sine... SOme inexpensive UPS do not recognize these as an AC and would not charge their batteries when connected, some computers do not even turn on and all electrical motor buzz and have their lifespan severely curtailed. Switching to a true sine wave inverter eliminate most if not all of these problems.

Franz, I am not saying that there are no benefits to cleaning up power. What I am saying is that I cannot understand how low level line noise is going to get past a SMPS. There are certainly spikes and transients that can affect systems, and as I said elsewhere, grounds may not be adequate and there may be problems associated with common mode noise. My issue is with those that claim better video from adding a line conditioner. I want to see some actual evidence or even a good argument for how this sustained and pervasive improvement can occur.

If you want to differ, read the entire post for context. I can't see much in your post that I differ with, other than I would be skeptical of grounding and or other installation issues in a system with sustained problems.