That says it all. :D

That says it all. :D

First this is the USA not Iran

Second you dont have special powers that tell you what anyone owns. Or maybe you do I think PSA sells that now too.

Quit wasting bandwidth with insane posts.

What did Speco say? Was it intelligible? He's on my "bad" list so all I know is that he posted but to me the post is blank. I guess my translation software works fine as it hides what he says and tells me what its worth. HA!

What did Speco say? Was it intelligible? He's on my "bad" list so all I know is that he posted but to me the post is blank. I guess my translation software works fine as it hides what he says and tells me what its worth. HA!
He said, ah never mind; go back to your little cocoon.

I just realized... shouldn't it be "Ultra High-End" rather than "Ultra Hi-End"?

Ultra Hi-End seems to refer to a portion of the forum where people might greet each other in a profound manner :D

Because we're TAKIN IT BACK FOR THE PEOPLE, maaaaann. Vive la revolution!

There are many puzzling questions like this one.

Why is it that 'it never rains in sunny California'?

Why is it that 'God didn't make little green apples, and it don't rain in Indianapolis in the summertime'?

I agree Steve and thanks for bringing this out of the dark and into the light. How dare these fakers who haven't spent 20K on their systems, let alone on a single component post here? So where do we vote to kick you out first? :D

Pardon me, could you please pass the Grey Poupon.

I agree Steve and thanks for bringing this out of the dark and into the light. How dare these fakers who haven't spent 20K on their systems, let alone on a single component post here? So where do we vote to kick you out first? :D

And QQQ is (was?) my friend. HA! :D :D :D :D :D

Notice how not one person has even attempted to answer the question posted initially. I never said you less than $10K or $20K folks shouldn't be allowed to post here. I just begged the question why you post. And 'you have answered it. You post to bug me. If I quit posting here at this forum, you will all fade into oblivion and cease to exist.

Maybe it's just wishful posting.

Why? Because we can.

If you have heard the gear and have valuable experience, that's a worthy contribution regardless . I spent a lot of time with older audiophiles when I was in college and learned a lot even though my home system was modest at the time. I try to share my current system with some younger audiophiles just as some older guys were kind enough to do with me. But I am sure this is not the types you are questioning.

Why? Because we're in training for when we can be elitist jerks with really expensive components =P

All in good fun, of course... The true elitists post in the CRT Projectors forum.

Why? Because we're in training for when we can be elitist jerks with really expensive components =P

All in good fun, of course... The true elitists post in the CRT Projectors forum.

You are not so mad. Happy New Year. We're home as my 17 year old daughter has some friends over in my home theater room. Better there than elsewhere. :eek:

Happy New Year Steve and everyone else! Home too. Sipping on some Scotch and listening to some Jazz. Worth a million bucks to me.

Happy New Year Steve and everyone else! Home too. Sipping on some Scotch and listening to some Jazz. Worth a million bucks to me.

Definitely cost more than $20K, too. :D :D :D And that's before his power conditioning and power cords. OOPS!! :eek:

OK. Here's the truth. The 20K and up forum is the place to give SH_T regardless of your system or its cost. Get it out here so you leave the rest of the AVS Forums alone!!!
Don't go over to the CRT forum and keep telling Curt that his love for CRTs is based on voodoo science and magic arts as opposed to modern objectivity. He won't believe you
(nor will I). Hey, I luv Curt. I get his newsletter. He'll try to sell to anyone.

He'll try to sell to anyone.

And I usually do. :rolleyes:

I missed my calling as a used car salesman... :eek: :D

I came for the high-end projectors...

I stayed for the trash talk.

:D

I post here because there is no $40k+ forum - I do hate slumming with you all however. :D

I came because I never left.

I just realized... shouldn't it be "Ultra High-End" rather than "Ultra Hi-End"?

Ultra Hi-End seems to refer to a portion of the forum where people might greet each other in a profound manner :D

I thought it referred to a girl with a really firm behind.

Art

This question has been asked here before. However, in probably a bit more polite manner. ;) It's my understanding that this section was originally intended for projectors costing greater than $20K. Through time it evolved into a hi-end audo/video forum. At last count (at least according the last thread on this subject, and since high quality projectors have fallen way below the $20K mark), this forum is for systems totaling above $20K (as Steve has suggested in this thread).

I post here, though not in a long while. My gear totals way abovie $20K. But I have no single component that cost that much. Well... maybe my interconnects (just kidding!) :D

My whole system might be over $20k...... if I bought it new. Thank GOD for Audiogon. :)

I check in and keep an eye on things, as I appreciate the high end as a reference point. While I don't own any individual components costing anyway near $20k, having some familiarity with reference gear allows me to maximise performance returns on my equipment purchases and DIY projects.

Why Do Folks Who Don't Even Spend $10K on Their System Even Post Here in $20K Forum?

Good question...... :)

My current system is worth 16K or so and I've posted here in this section only four or five times..... :D

I think it is not that bad...... :p

Happy 2007 to everyone (including those who do not even own $5K systems)! :)

It's all part of the 2006 - 2010 "What Can We Do To Get On Steve Bruzonsky's Nerves" viral internet campaign.

Wait til you see the video on Youtube where someone in a black mask uses high end interconnects to tie a mattress to the roof of their car. :)

That says it all. :D

Well, you could also ask "why do people talk about audio gear in a Display Devices forum?" :D

I post here because there is no $40k+ forum - I do hate slumming with you all however. :D

Now that's funny. :D

As for the forum itself, I don't personally care who posts here. There are certainly those who aspire to have more expensive equipment and those who can add intelligent additions to the discussion even though they don't own the items themselves. I certainly do find the constant "I could build X myself for a fraction of that cost" or "It's crazy to spend Y amount on Z product" posts annoying. It's one thing if they pop up when someone asks how you might be able to replicate similar functionality for less, wants to compare product A to B, etc. But it's another when a thread that has nothing to do with price, ROI, etc devolves into a price argument back and forth. Just my $0.02.

Jeff

Yes, this is an interesting place ! :D Yes, it originally was for projectors but since those here like to spend 25 times more on audio than video there are few who have projection systems in that range to have discussions.

Occasionally, I try to restart things with projector threads but they die out pretty quickly. It does appear that there are no more than about half a dozen folks here with projectors in that range. Owners of the large three chip DLPs like Runco,Barco,SIM,Christy etc have almost no participants here.

Art

The real reason is that this is practically the only place in the world where people have any idea what we're talking about, much less give a ****. After all, we can't even tell our wives what our gear costs.

David

Well, if the $20K price is for the whole system, then I have the right to be here also. Even a fairly small projection system will cost that much. Mine is quite modest and comes out to:

1. Dwin HD-700 ($9500)
2. Lexicon MC-1 ($4500)
3. Atlantic Tech 450THX ($6500)
4. HD Leeza ($4000)
5. Automation ($2000)
6. Sources - Sony 777ES, Sony 300 HD STB $(1000)
7. Screen (~$1200 I think)

So that's well over the limit, and I find this whole thing about taking this forum back for the people and other such socialistic attitudes to be quite silly and childish.

I asked that once... and was told per component.

All I know is someone paid $50k for my 1209S when new. The Mrs saw me pay $3k for it, and she thinks I'm crazy :rolleyes:

Pardon me, could you please pass the Grey Poupon.

LMAO :D :D :D

Well, if the $20K price is for the whole system, then I have the right to be here also. Even a fairly small projection system will cost that much. Mine is quite modest and comes out to:

1. Dwin HD-700 ($9500)
2. Lexicon MC-1 ($4500)
3. Atlantic Tech 450THX ($6500)
4. HD Leeza ($4000)
5. Automation ($2000)
6. Sources - Sony 777ES, Sony 300 HD STB $(1000)
7. Screen (~$1200 I think)

So that's well over the limit, and I find this whole thing about taking this system back for the people and other such socialistic attitudes to be quite silly.

Yea,you're just barely cutting the Grey Poupon. Come back later after you take the Charles Atlas course.... little boy. I hate to have to keep kicking macroblocks,and pink noise in your face at the beach and you don't even fight back.. ;) :D

Art

Notice how not one person has even attempted to answer the question posted initially. I never said you less than $10K or $20K folks shouldn't be allowed to post here. I just begged the question why you post. And 'you have answered it. You post to bug me. If I quit posting here at this forum, you will all fade into oblivion and cease to exist.

My entire system comes in right around $30k, with the most expensive piece of gear being ~$6k. I post here because this is where the people in the know tend to post. No offense to anyone else on the forum, but I like the fact that I can post a serious question about an amp and not be deluged with responses telling me that I should just get a $200 pro amp because all amps are the same. Also, I hope to and fully intend to own a true high-end system one day, and I enjoy reading about some of the truly world-class systems that OB, Mike L and others own.

I think we need a $100K forum!

$20K is so "entry level"

Peter

Just to piss you off, Stevie-baby. JUST to piss you off. ;)

Oh and FYI my display device alone was $130,000. Well, mind you in N$, that is (Mexican Pesos).

I have posted here recently, as opposed to the Amp & Speaker forums, as this has the hgih-end focus, regardless of its 20K title.
Example: a post on baby Wilson speakers or others in its range, or top-flite CDP players, will quickly get lost in the other forums numerous threads.
Here at least, is a focus on quality.
Many of you have actual hands on experience with $5K - $10K gear as you graduated up the audio/video food-chain.

You should try posting at VW Vortex -> AFAIK the most active of all forums.
Start new thread in the morning and it may be lost on page 9 by the end of the day.

- Andy

i have to admit i'm a bit offended by the title to this thread......even though written tongue in cheek. audio knowledge and refined tastes are not limited to those who choose to spend big dollars on gear; and many with high net worths spend less than those with more modest balance sheets.

in other words, interest in the best and most expensive gear should not be limited to those that own it.

i have heard very spendy systems that sound like crap (even mine at certain moments) and modest systems that really make great music. OTOH when top SOTA gear is synergistically assembled in a well thought out room magic can and does happen. that is my quest and it's fun to talk about it with like minded folks......and even more fun to get together to listen and enjoy the music together. it matters not who owns what...just that it's fun and makes our lives better for the experiences.

i participate in a few different audio boards; this one has likely the best sense of community and so i keep coming back; for the people. i don't so much have a sense of who owns what systems or gear.

in any case i hope all who have an interest in the best gear continue to participate.

I have posted here recently, as opposed to the Amp & Speaker forums, as this has the hgih-end focus, regardless of its 20K title.
Example: a post on baby Wilson speakers or others in its range, or top-flite CDP players, will quickly get lost in the other forums numerous threads.
Here at least, is a focus on quality.
Many of you have actual hands on experience with $5K - $10K gear as you graduated up the audio/video food-chain.

You should try posting at VW Vortex -> AFAIK the most active of all forums.
Start new thread in the morning and it may be lost on page 9 by the end of the day.

- Andy

Seriously I post in this forum to get friends like Andy to post here!!

i have to admit i'm a bit offended by the title to this thread......even though written tongue in cheek. audio knowledge and refined tastes are not limited to those who choose to spend big dollars on gear; and many with high net worths spend less than those with more modest balance sheets.

in other words, interest in the best and most expensive gear should not be limited to those that own it.

i have heard very spendy systems that sound like crap (even mine at certain moments) and modest systems that really make great music. OTOH when top SOTA gear is synergistically assembled in a well thought out room magic can and does happen. that is my quest and it's fun to talk about it with like minded folks......and even more fun to get together to listen and enjoy the music together. it matters not who owns what...just that it's fun and makes our lives better for the experiences.

i participate in a few different audio boards; this one has likely the best sense of community and so i keep coming back; for the people. i don't so much have a sense of who owns what systems or gear.

in any case i hope all who have an interest in the best gear continue to participate.


Well put Mike!!! I also have participated to other Audio boards and this is the one I keep coming back to.. I have made some real friends through this board.
I do not think it is about price, it is about how much a given equipment pushes the envelope,how well it performs and this usually (not necessarily) comes at a premium

i do not even have a system, but i post here as it is the most interesting discussion with some of the most (to my mind) intelligent people in AVS

i have to admit i'm a bit offended by the title to this thread......even though written tongue in cheek. audio knowledge and refined tastes are not limited to those who choose to spend big dollars on gear; and many with high net worths spend less than those with more modest balance sheets.

in other words, interest in the best and most expensive gear should not be limited to those that own it.



When I started this thread, I just figures that since I get offended here at this forum all the time I'd return the favor. Though Mike, you have NEVER offended me. You're just a nice guy.

I'm just a callow, fawning hi end groupie. This forum actually makes me feel sane, conservative and modest in my audio expenditures (but don't ask my wife).

I tried to click on this thread and the site ran a credit report and last 2 year's tax returns before I could enter. :rolleyes:

I think for parity, coverage, and to demonstrate lack of prejudice a low-end (or lo-end) forum is warranted. I'm not talking sub $3K, I'm talking about pure ghetto and optimizing your crack house for a 1988 Fisher all-in-one with a damaged woofer and missing speaker. Cover topics like selecting used mattresses and their effect on acoustics when placed on the floor and wall. For displays we could discuss the best tin foil techniques to enhance reception as well as favorite open hand blows to restore image quality when the set is suffering 3:2 Beat-down or "on the fritz".

Possibilities are endless and instead of Grey Poupon, the mustard choice would be stolen packets from the quick mart. Everyone likes to maximize their gear and setup whatever that might consist of.

I think for parity, coverage, and to demonstrate lack of prejudice a low-end (or lo-end) forum is warranted. I'm not talking sub $3K, I'm talking about pure ghetto and optimizing your crack house for a 1988 Fisher all-in-one with a damaged woofer and missing speaker. Cover topics like selecting used mattresses and their effect on acoustics when placed on the floor and wall. For displays we could discuss the best tin foil techniques to enhance reception as well as favorite open hand blows to restore image quality when the set is suffering 3:2 Beat-down or "on the fritz".

Possibilities are endless and instead of Grey Poupon, the mustard choice would be stolen packets from the quick mart. Everyone likes to maximize their gear and setup whatever that might consist of.

ROFL...

Don't forget the best ways to steal cable and shoplift CDs... after all the content is important too!!!

Is there a cheap bastard forum where everyone else can post?

I think for parity, coverage, and to demonstrate lack of prejudice a low-end (or lo-end) forum is warranted. I'm not talking sub $3K, I'm talking about pure ghetto and optimizing your crack house for a 1988 Fisher all-in-one with a damaged woofer and missing speaker. Cover topics like selecting used mattresses and their effect on acoustics when placed on the floor and wall. For displays we could discuss the best tin foil techniques to enhance reception as well as favorite open hand blows to restore image quality when the set is suffering 3:2 Beat-down or "on the fritz".

Possibilities are endless and instead of Grey Poupon, the mustard choice would be stolen packets from the quick mart. Everyone likes to maximize their gear and setup whatever that might consist of.

We once had this forum here at AVS. I moderated it for four years. Its called the Tweaks forum. Its still here at AVS but not the same anymore. Now I bug people at this $20K Up forum instead. HA!

Because today's $20,000.00 unit is tomorrows $20.00 brick.

Exactly and how would we know which $20 brick to buy *next* year if we don't hang out here *this* year ;)

Because today's $20,000.00 unit is tomorrows $20.00 brick.

LOL !!!! :D

Art

Because today's $20,000.00 unit is tomorrows $20.00 brick.

maybe on the video side that is true.

but....on the audio side;

my 7 year old turntable (i've owned it for 4 years) is worth at least what i paid for it 4 years ago ($40k+).

i upgraded my speakers in 2001 where i did spend about $10k more than my previous speakers. since then i have changed speakers 3 times and have a net gain of over $10k.

my 6 year old cables are worth more than i paid for them new.

my gear rack, amp, and preamp are only about a year old but are still worth approx what i paid for them.

my room project increased my home value at least double the investment.

so when buying spendy gear it is certainly possible to have retained value.

anyone who spends big dollars on the video side must accept huge depreciation if they buy new cutting edge stuff.

maybe on the video side that is true.

but....on the audio side;

my 7 year old turntable (i've owned it for 4 years) is worth at least what i paid for it 4 years ago ($40k+).

i upgraded my speakers in 2001 where i did spend about $10k more than my previous speakers. since then i have changed speakers 3 times and have a net gain of over $10k.

my 6 year old cables are worth more than i paid for them new.

my gear rack, amp, and preamp are only about a year old but are still worth approx what i paid for them.

my room project increased my home value at least double the investment.

so when buying spendy gear it is certainly possible to have retained value.

anyone who spends big dollars on the video side must accept huge depreciation if they buy new cutting edge stuff.

I have not lost money on any of my audio components in the last two years (I am always trying new things). Each upgrade I have made has made me money (sort of). Buy smart in audio it can be profitable or at least not cost you money. Video is another story all together.

In all my years of buying, I have rarely bought in terms of what the value might be after I am done. IF I did so, I'd be three years behind technology.

HT for me is money I throw away for entertainment (that said, every component purchased laborously researched so it best meets my needs in performance and value). But after it is in my rack, its value over time means very little to me.

even the 'audio' side of my video is long-term and holds value.

i have 6 year old Revel speakers, 8 year old Velodyne subs, a 5 year old Lexicon MC-12, and 8 year old Proceed amps. all these items still offer at or close to SOTA HT sound.

on the video side i just upgraded (mostly with the $10k i made on my speaker upgrade).

Marantz S3 to Sony Pearl

Stewart 100" diag motorized screen to da-lite 115" x 49" CH 2.35 with motorized masking.

Crystallio II Video processor (to avoid having to upgrade the Lex).

ISCO III 2.35 Lens.

the sceen and lens will likely hold their value pretty well........the Pearl is cheap enough that it should not be too bad, the Crystallio will likely be a doorstop in about three years (12-16bit, 'dark color', HDMI 1.3, 1420p......as these become stanards the C2 will not keep up).

The stuff might hold value if you buy used, but it certainly doesn't hold value if you buy it new. I have a Proceed AVP ($5,500 MSRP) and a Proceed PMDT ($7,500 MSRP, especially with the scaling card, and I also have the progressive scan card). However, I purchased these from former owners for way, way less than MSRP. And they're worth even less now. However, I still think they kick butt and am saddened that Proceed is no longer around.

As for buying new, I purchased a Nuforce Ref. 9 amp to run my center channel. I plan on selling it (don't like it), and will be lucky to get half what I paid for it. I'm replacing it with a (cayin) tube amp, which may or may not be better at retaining value. I don't consider even used gear as an "investment" that will hold value.

Who the hell buys new??????? :p

Jim (bottom feeder - and proud of it) :D

I don't consider even used gear as an "investment" that will hold value.

I think "investment grade" a/v is about getting something reasonable back. If you buy, enjoy, and turn it over for reasonably close to what you paid, that's solid and you should be very happy. Maginal losses should be seen as gains since you got to use it too. A/V expenditure is a lot more palatable (to the pocket and wife) if you can occaisonally recover something on the back end. Inevitably, you will take a bath sometimes but that's the cost of pleasure or hobby.

Hey!

I know why. Because Forums are places to make observations in front of others, and I don't remember a rule saying you have to Own a $20K system to make observations about one.......

I have not lost money on any of my audio components in the last two years (I am always trying new things). Each upgrade I have made has made me money (sort of). Buy smart in audio it can be profitable or at least not cost you money. Video is another story all together.

If you live in the Phoenix area, private message me with your e-mail and I'll e-mail you info re our monthly Az AV Club meetings. You'll like it.

Who the hell buys new??????? :p

Jim (bottom feeder - and proud of it) :D


lol.. same here.

Originally Posted by mike lavigne

my 7 year old turntable (i've owned it for 4 years) is worth at least what i paid for it 4 years ago ($40k+).
Only if you find someone that wants to buy a 7 year old turntable for $40k.

I'll keep my cheep-e Linn, thank you very much!

If I remember the model turntable he has correctly, I doubt he'll have difficulty.

Only if you find someone that wants to buy a 7 year old turntable for $40k.

I'll keep my cheep-e Linn, thank you very much!

i have no plans to sell it and in any case would not take $40k for it. the build quality of this tt is such that at 7 years old it is still like new as it is built to industrial tool standards. it weighs 600 pounds, has no friction as it uses all air bearings, and never needs tweaking or adjustments as it permanently holds any set-up.

someday a resistor might fail in the power supply or i might need to get a new vaccuum pump both of which would be easy cheap fixes. other than that it will easily out-live me and likely my kids.

obviously most people would not pay anything like that for it. OTOH there are 'enough' people that would. pretty much these tt's come on the market due to 'death', 'divorce' or buying the $100k Caliburn.

i bought mine due to a divorce.

Originally Posted by mike lavigne
...obviously most people would not pay anything like that for it. OTOH there are 'enough' people that would....
Yes, that's really my point. The true monetary value of something, especially something used, is only there if you have a buyer.

One man's ceiling is another man's floor.

Thanks to all the folks behaving themselves in this thread, which is still open. Who would have thought?

My Total A/V equipment exceeds 20K two fold but, this should be the 20-acre or greater site. Total cost of land,cattle, tractors,silos,and equipment is up there as far as the hobby (small income goes).

What cost 20K today is 5K tomorrow so does it really matter that much? You can't take it with you when you go, so enjoy it today folks, because time goes by way to quick...

Pissing contests are always more interesting when the stakes are high ($20,000 and up).

Actually a thread outlining the amount your a/v system has depreciated (including all of the upgrades you've done over the years) would yield some interesting numbers..:(

Pissing contests are always more interesting when the stakes are high ($20,000 and up).

That said, the entertainment value of the "bum fight" is not to be overlooked. It's the extremes that keep life interesting ;).

Actually a thread outlining the amount your a/v system has depreciated (including all of the upgrades you've done over the years) would yield some interesting numbers..:(


At least it hasn't deprieciated more than the vehicles I drive :rolleyes:

True. One could argue though that a vehicle is mandatory, at least mine brings me money when I use it for installs and service calls. I guess my own HT actually brings in money when I demo CRTs in it, but for the average user, an HT system is purely for entertainment.

True. One could argue though that a vehicle is mandatory, at least mine brings me money when I use it for installs and service calls. I guess my own HT actually brings in money when I demo CRTs in it, but for the average user, an HT system is purely for entertainment.


We Americans routinely spend big on entertainment. At least this form of entertainment can be used by the whole family, friends, relatives etc. Unlike that Harley in the Garage. At least thats the excuse I use with the wife :p

Pissing contests are always more interesting when the stakes are high ($20,000 and up).
I thought pissing contests were more interesting when the trajectory was high. If this was the 2K forum, I would have said "height of the arc" instead of trajectory. You know, no one in that forum would know what trajectory meant. :D Although, I did have to look it up.....

I thought pissing contests were more interesting when the trajectory was high. If this was the 2K forum, I would have said "height of the arc" instead of trajectory. You know, no one in that forum would know what trajectory meant. :D Although, I did have to look it up.....

Did you take the Coriolis Effect into your above consideration? I'll bet you'll need to dig that one up!

Did you take the Coriolis Effect into your above consideration? I'll bet you'll need to dig that one up!
Are you kidding?........Everyone knows about that. :rolleyes:

I'm an Audiogon junkie as well and probably have only 10K in cash in the system, retail would be well over $40,000, through buying and selling and judicious trading.
Putting a cash value on a system is also quite silly as I've heard $5000 systems that mop the floor with $20,000 in terms of timbre, soundstaging and musicality.

Are you kidding?........Everyone knows about that. :rolleyes:

No, as a matter of fact I'm not kidding! As far as "EVERYONE KNOWS ABOUT THAT" is highly doubtful and is a sweeping statement which surely could never be the case.

I'm an Audiogon junkie as well and probably have only 10K in cash in the system, retail would be well over $40,000, through buying and selling and judicious trading.
Putting a cash value on a system is also quite silly as I've heard $5000 systems that mop the floor with $20,000 in terms of timbre, soundstaging and musicality.


Digital is the great equalizer. In 18 months, you will probably be able to get a processor with twice the computational power for the same cost or less. This will allow you to compete with 'Mr. Grey Poupon' sooner rather than later.

I thought pissing contests were more interesting when the trajectory was high. If this was the 2K forum, I would have said "height of the arc" instead of trajectory. You know, no one in that forum would know what trajectory meant. :D Although, I did have to look it up.....

Nonesense, even I knew what it meant, of course I called in artillery often. ;) If it was the 2k forum, I couldn't brag about the pc speakers, and the Jensen Portable DVD/CD/MP3 Player with 4" LCD Screen that made up the crux of my HT set-up during my time in the military, after all they could (though it would be close) have a system that rivaled or even surpassed (doubtful) mine. :D

I don't understand how some of you do it. You live in a house worth $400k or $500k (somewhere out west) and spend over $100k or more on your theaters. My house is worth about $2 million (with a very small mtg) and I can't bring myself to spend more than $40k on ALL of my equipment....including my 2 plasmas upstairs. :D I've considered leaving the city - selling and moving out west or down south. Buy a nice big house all cash and then spend 100k on my theater. ;) I love the finer things - I own a big house on the beach in a nice NYC suburb, drive an S500, wife drives a Rover, own a Donzi, wear a Rolex, buy all of Jeff's wine recommendations :) .....I just don't see the value of spending 100k on a/v gear. If I had another 100k to blow (expendible cash) I'd buy another investment property - not an amp, speakers, or a projector. I'm not trying to bait anyone or offend anyone so please don't flame me for this - I just don't get the relativity of spending that type of cash when it appears to be above some of your means. I've read some stories of members on this forum refinancing their primary residences to pull cash out to build a home theater. :eek:

Some of you guys have the cash for this type of spending - but I'm going to guess that some of you who post here don't. And you spend it anyway. Why? Can't you be happy with 30k or 40k worth of gear instead of 100k. Is the difference in sound and picture quality worth that much extra cash when you don't really have the cash?

Herman,

I can't speak for anyone here but it has seemed to me that most on this forum pay cash for their gear. Your speculative analysis above suggests many here have 20% to 25% of their home's value in the theater. I would think that is quite over-estimated. I would guess closer to 5% to 10% tops. Everything in my theater (and the room itself) was paid with cash. The only thing I finance these days is my lease vehicle.

Make sure you go out and try that Guenoc I recommend below. It is a fantastic wine for the money. You can drink it everyday at that price. Unfortunately, I paid $56 at a restaurant to learn that this $24 bottle was very nice!:D

It's about what your passionate about. A lot of people might be like me, in which case I could care less about a house. A car guy wouldn't settle for a dinky Porsche GT when he could have a Bugatti Veyron or a Pagani Zonda, and he might care less about who made the clothes he wears. A watch enthusiast wouldn't bother with a cheap Rolex when they could have a Chopard or a Blancpain, and they might not care that they only have a two car instead of four car garage. An audiophile wouldn't settle for some Martin Logans, if they could have some Sonus Fabers, or some Swans, and it might not matter to him if he owns a penguin or a dog.

A watch enthusiast wouldn't bother with a cheap Rolex when they could have a Chopard or a Blancpain.

A Chopard...No way, Blancpain, yes. Also Patek Philippe, Breguet, Jaeger Le Coultre, Audemars Piguet are good choices :)

A Chopard...No way, Blancpain, yes. Also Patek Philippe, Breguet, Jaeger Le Coultre, Audemars Piguet are good choices :)

None of which I will get to touch in my lifetime. Then again, I don't wear watches. :p I'd rather take a second mortgage out and buy a Pagani Zonda :D

I'll never spend more on my theater than I'd spend on an airplane.

Oops. Did I say a no, no?

:rolleyes:

Steve, I dropped about $6500 all together on my system, but IMO its priceless to me... Does this allow me to continue to post or should I get out of Dodge??

LMAO

All fun guys I have heard the WAF or the Wife accuse too many times, seriously grow a pair already!!!

~Bob

:rolleyes:

Steve, I dropped about $6500 all together on my system, but IMO its priceless to me... Does this allow me to continue to post or should I get out of Dodge??

LMAO

All fun guys I have heard the WAF or the Wife accuse too many times, seriously grow a pair already!!!

~Bob

Posting in this thread gives you permission to post endlessly in the $20K and up forum. HA! SO SAYS ME

As always, some people believe that price is equivalent performance. And it cannot be more untrue than in the world of voodoo hifi! :D

It's about what your passionate about. A lot of people might be like me, in which case I could care less about a house. A car guy wouldn't settle for a dinky Porsche GT when he could have a Bugatti Veyron or a Pagani Zonda, and he might care less about who made the clothes he wears. A watch enthusiast wouldn't bother with a cheap Rolex when they could have a Chopard or a Blancpain, and they might not care that they only have a two car instead of four car garage. An audiophile wouldn't settle for some Martin Logans, if they could have some Sonus Fabers, or some Swans, and it might not matter to him if he owns a penguin or a dog.

A very sensible post. The major difference, of course, being that for some reason people can understand people who are passionate about cars, or watches, or boats, or a number of other things. The general consensus seems to be that because these items are an outward showing of wealth and good taste, others can appreciate them, EVEN IF they are purchased out of passion and not for show.

Audiophilia will always be an inward thing, and as such much more difficult for others to comprehend and appreciate.

Audiophilia will always be an inward thing, and as such much more difficult for others to comprehend and appreciate

That is THE most sensible post of the whole thread

I don't understand how some of you do it. You live in a house worth $400k or $500k (somewhere out west) and spend over $100k or more on your theaters. My house is worth about $2 million (with a very small mtg) and I can't bring myself to spend more than $40k on ALL of my equipment....including my 2 plasmas upstairs. :D I've considered leaving the city - selling and moving out west or down south. Buy a nice big house all cash and then spend 100k on my theater. ;) I love the finer things - I own a big house on the beach in a nice NYC suburb, drive an S500, wife drives a Rover, own a Donzi, wear a Rolex, buy all of Jeff's wine recommendations :) .....I just don't see the value of spending 100k on a/v gear. If I had another 100k to blow (expendible cash) I'd buy another investment property - not an amp, speakers, or a projector. I'm not trying to bait anyone or offend anyone so please don't flame me for this - I just don't get the relativity of spending that type of cash when it appears to be above some of your means. I've read some stories of members on this forum refinancing their primary residences to pull cash out to build a home theater. :eek:

Some of you guys have the cash for this type of spending - but I'm going to guess that some of you who post here don't. And you spend it anyway. Why? Can't you be happy with 30k or 40k worth of gear instead of 100k. Is the difference in sound and picture quality worth that much extra cash when you don't really have the cash?

I have owned fancy cars and all they did was brake down. So I switched to cars that never have to go to the shop: Lexus (not a fancy one either) and Honda. The thing is a lot of us audiophiles would much rather have the amp than the car or the watch. I can tell you are very "showy" person and you take pride in your personal wealth. Myself I don't really care what people think and don't care for showing off. The stereo system is my relief from the stress of my life and also one of my hobbies. For me to spend 100k on my system is justifiable because I enjoy and honestly could car less about fancy cars, watches (I wear a seiko because it works everyday. I could not say the same for my old Rolex) or fine wine. It is all a matter of opinion.

I have owned fancy cars and all they did was brake down. So I switched to cars that never have to go to the shop: Lexus (not a fancy one either) and Honda. The thing is a lot of us audiophiles would much rather have the amp than the car or the watch. I can tell you are very "showy" person and you take pride in your personal wealth. Myself I don't really care what people think and don't care for showing off. The stereo system is my relief from the stress of my life and also one of my hobbies. For me to spend 100k on my system is justifiable because I enjoy and honestly could car less about fancy cars, watches (I wear a seiko because it works everyday. I could not say the same for my old Rolex) or fine wine. It is all a matter of opinion.

Us Arizona folks are smart. We also have a Lexus and a Honda (Lets not talk about the Dodge Durango, it sucks and is being replaced by a Honda Pilot).

I have owned fancy cars and all they did was brake down. So I switched to cars that never have to go to the shop: Lexus (not a fancy one either) and Honda. The thing is a lot of us audiophiles would much rather have the amp than the car or the watch. I can tell you are very "showy" person and you take pride in your personal wealth. Myself I don't really care what people think and don't care for showing off. The stereo system is my relief from the stress of my life and also one of my hobbies. For me to spend 100k on my system is justifiable because I enjoy and honestly could car less about fancy cars, watches (I wear a seiko because it works everyday. I could not say the same for my old Rolex) or fine wine. It is all a matter of opinion.


I like your post. Mostly the same for me... except my watches are Breitling and they do not break either.

I think that there's a significant difference between high end cars and high end audio. Cars are measured to the Nth degree, and their performance specs are posted all the time and they are measured against each other in real world performance by third parties, to prove whether the actual specs meet the claimed specs, and whether they can provide that performance reliably. So there is pretty good empirical evidence for what cars can do, and what you are buying for your money.

It's not too likely that someone is going to get away with charging $100K or more for a performance car that cannot proveably perform against other cars in that price range. And when two high end car people pull up together to a stop light, they both know pretty well how their two cars measure up against each other, because they've been put to the test numreous times by good drivers and measured by multiple third parties.

But since audiophiles often refuse to believe in test measurements as a measure of actual performance, it can become a situation more like who has the prettiest paint job.

I think that there's a significant difference between high end cars and high end audio. Cars are measured to the Nth degree, and their performance specs are posted all the time and they are measured against each other in real world performance by third parties, to prove whether the actual specs meet the claimed specs, and whether they can provide that performance reliably. So there is pretty good empirical evidence for what cars can do, and what you are buying for your money.

It's not too likely that someone is going to get away with charging $100K or more for a performance car that cannot proveably perform against other cars in that price range. And when two high end car people pull up together to a stop light, they both know pretty well how their two cars measure up against each other, because they've been put to the test numreous times by good drivers and measured by multiple third parties.

But since audiophiles often refuse to believe in test measurements as a measure of actual performance, it can become a situation more like who has the prettiest paint job.


That's great Dean....then you go buy that Lamborghini or Ferarri for $250K because they have been measured to the Nth degree and you will know what you are getting

But since audiophiles often refuse to believe in test measurements as a measure of actual performance, it can become a situation more like who has the prettiest paint job.

Not always...For some of us it is about performance and objective excellence.

My room:

HAA Grade A for sound
ISF Calibrated Display
Alpha Certification for room acoustics excellence.

I've read some stories of members on this forum refinancing their primary residences to pull cash out to build a home theater. :eek:



So you you feel that tapping equity to improve ones primary residence is strange ! :confused: I paid cash for my last theater and equipment but I added onto my home twice, partially with equity.

Art

I paid very little comparatively speaking for my CRT collection. I am paying dearly for it however as there are a lot of people that think I actually know something about them now, so I get upwards of 50 emails a day...;)

So you you feel that tapping equity to improve ones primary residence is strange ! :confused: I paid cash for my last theater and equipment but I added onto my home twice, partially with equity.

Art


Absolutely not if you're adding an extension to your residence that will bring more value. The value is in the physical extension of square footage to your home - not the stacked g90's you may or may not sell with the extension. Chances are that the buyer of your home won't be able to tell the difference between your g90's and a cheaper PJ set up. Will a theater add value to your home? Of course. Will it add $100k? Probably not. And if you tell the potential buyer how much you paid and how much you want just for your equipment, they'll probably tell you to take it with you.

I have owned fancy cars and all they did was brake down. So I switched to cars that never have to go to the shop.......I can tell you are very "showy" person and you take pride in your personal wealth. Myself I don't really care what people think and don't care for showing off.

The trick is to lease them for 24 months. Everything starts to go after those first 2 years or about 30,000 miles.

I said I like nice things. My business is all about image. I'm a Real Estate Broker/developer and investor. Not sure about "showy" but I can tell you there is a difference between driving an s500 and an Accord, or a Range Rover and a Pilot. And that difference is light years beyond the subtle differences between a properly tuned $40k system and a properly tuned $100k system IMHO. As far as watches go, I still prefer my 10 year old Tag to my newer Rolex. :)

Absolutely not if you're adding an extension to your residence that will bring more value. The value is in the physical extension of square footage to your home - not the stacked g90's you may or may not sell with the extension. Chances are that the buyer of your home won't be able to tell the difference between your g90's and a cheaper PJ set up. Will a theater add value to your home? Of course. Will it add $100k? Probably not. And if you tell the potential buyer how much you paid and how much you want just for your equipment, they'll probably tell you to take it with you.



The trick is to lease them for 24 months. Everything starts to go after those first 2 years or about 30,000 miles.

I said I like nice things. My business is all about image. I'm a Real Estate Broker/developer and investor. Not sure about "showy" but I can tell you there is a difference between driving an s500 and an Accord, or a Range Rover and a Pilot. And that difference is light years beyond the subtle differences between a properly tuned $40k system and a properly tuned $100k system IMHO. As far as watches go, I still prefer my 10 year old Tag to my newer Rolex. :)

Herman,

i really think you are deluding yourself......on a couple of levels.

i manage a large Honda dealership and manage a large automobile lease portfolio. you likely spend about $50k to lease the S500 and Land Rover for 2 years......compared to about 1/3rd of that for the Accord and Pilot. so that is $15k a year down the toilet so you can drive cars that 'MAKE YOU FEEL GOOD'. and you know what......GOOD FOR YOU.....YOU DESERVE IT.

OTOH another person might find more passion for their life by taking that '$15K' per year for 5 years (or in my case 12 years) and buying a sailboat........or maybe a few showcars......or a very nice Home Theatre.

i appraise cars every day for a living; including S500's and Land Rovers......yes; there is a difference between those and the Honda's......it's called about $10k per year per car more depreciation for your choices. the Pilot particularly is very competitive with the Land Rover as a vehicle.....there is more clear difference between the Accord and S500. but mostly it is how the cars make you 'FEEL'. and there is no doubt that what my 2-channel room does for me compared to a modest room/system exceeds the satisfaction differences between the cars we are speaking of here.......IMHO.

you have a right to say that the extravigance on your cars is more justified......but that does not make it so.

it comes down to passion and where you find it.......and that is purely personal.

as far as what a person does to manage their personal finances and allocation of assets i think judging anyone is a very slippery slope. most audiophiles and even HT enthusiasts are at a point in life where they somewhat financially settled and have choices.

how can you know or judge what investment portfolio, RE Holdings, 401k, etc. posters here might have?

i do respect that all should have a good financial plan......but that is not what we need to talk about here.

next we will hear how guilty we should all be to be so extravigant.

Herman,

i really think you are deluding yourself......on a couple of levels.

i manage a large Honda dealership and manage a large automobile lease portfolio. you likely spend about $50k to lease the S500 and Land Rover for 2 years......compared to about 1/3rd of that for the Accord and Pilot. so that is $15k a year down the toilet so you can drive cars that 'MAKE YOU FEEL GOOD'. and you know what......GOOD FOR YOU.....YOU DESERVE IT.

OTOH another person might find more passion for their life by taking that '$15K' per year for 5 years (or in my case 12 years) and buying a sailboat........or maybe a few showcars......or a very nice Home Theatre.

i appraise cars every day for a living; including S500's and Land Rovers......yes; there is a difference between those and the Honda's......it's called about $10k per year per car more depreciation for your choices. the Pilot particularly is very competitive with the Land Rover as a vehicle.....there is more clear difference between the Accord and S500. but mostly it is how the cars make you 'FEEL'. and there is no doubt that what my 2-channel room does for me compared to a modest room/system exceeds the satisfaction differences between the cars we are speaking of here.......IMHO.

you have a right to say that the extravigance on your cars is more justified......but that does not make it so.

it comes down to passion and where you find it.......and that is purely personal.

as far as what a person does to manage their personal finances and allocation of assets i think judging anyone is a very slippery slope. most audiophiles and even HT enthusiasts are at a point in life where they somewhat financially settled and have choices.

how can you know or judge what investment portfolio, RE Holdings, 401k, etc. posters here might have?

i do respect that all should have a good financial plan......but that is not what we need to talk about here.

next we will hear how guilty we should all be to be so extravigant.

Sure a Honda Accord drives just like a Benz S500. There's no difference at all. It's all in my head....how it makes me feel. :D And a Kawasaki feels just like a Donzi. Absolutely. While we're at it why don't I just pitch a tent on the beach and sell my 6,000 sqft house. Just like my $1500 Mitsubishi HC3000 PJ performs just like Jeff or Art's set up. :D :D It's easy to turn what we are both saying around. And I never judged anyone. You, however, did judge me for "wasting" my money on expensive cars. All I said in my OP was how is it relative to live in a $500k house and spend $100k or more on HT equipment. I never mentioned financial planning or 401k's. I'd wouldn't drive an s500 if it was beyond my means - I'd drive a Honda. :D I'm kidding Mike. Honda makes a great car. Hey - I'm 33 years old I still have time to blow $100k on a nice theater. :)

Herm

Isn't it interesting that we have on the very same subforum people talking about 100K setups and also complaining about how quickly new technology that gives the same performance as their expensive projector for 1/4th the price.

Americans tend to confuse wants with needs. That's why you have people with 2 and 3 cars filing for bankruptcy.

In the overall scheme of things the happiness that people experience when they listen to their system isn't really related to the actual components in their system. To prove my statement, imagine you are sitting at your system ready to enjoy and you hear news that someone you love has just died. Your system was the same as it was just a few minutes ago, no one has even touched the cable lifters or changed the interconnects so that the arrows now point in the wrong direction. But, I guarantee you will not enjoy your system as much as you did the day before. The components, the room acoustic treatment, the music is the same but the enjoyment is severely diminished.
So the 'happiness' that people experience is not really in the components themselves, no matter how expensive they are.

To prove my statement, imagine you are sitting at your system ready to enjoy and you hear news that someone you love has just died. Your system was the same as it was just a few minutes ago, no one has even touched the cable lifters or changed the interconnects so that the arrows now point in the wrong direction. But, I guarantee you will not enjoy your system as much as you did the day before.
I agree and will profer the following as proof. After my divorce, I was in my temporary apartment, listening to my temporary cheap Walmart home theater in a box system, when I learned that my cheating bitch ex-wife, who was awarded my house and stereo system when we got divorced, who's new boyfriend now listens to my system, died (my cheating bitch ex-wife) a horribly painful and sudden death. At that moment that Walmart system sounded like a pair of Wilson Alexandria's.

I agree and will profer the following as proof. After my divorce, I was in my temporary apartment, listening to my temporary cheap Walmart home theater in a box system, when I learned that my cheating bitch ex-wife, who was awarded my house and stereo system when we got divorced, who's new boyfriend now listens to my system, died (my cheating bitch ex-wife) a horribly painful and sudden death. At that moment that Walmart system sounded like a pair of Wilson Alexandria's.

Wow, way to give a good example! :eek:

The trick is to lease them for 24 months. Everything starts to go after those first 2 years or about 30,000 miles.

I said I like nice things. My business is all about image. I'm a Real Estate Broker/developer and investor. Not sure about "showy" but I can tell you there is a difference between driving an s500 and an Accord, or a Range Rover and a Pilot.

This may make sense for someone who is concerned with appearances over function. However, I have found it makes far more sense to buy the vehicles thatare two years old with 25K miles on them, then sell them when they hit 80-100K. Minimum depreciation, minimum annual maintenance costs.

I put the difference into my racing budget, where I get to drive cars that perform far beyond anything you can legally put on the street.

Ditto that.

I'm looking for a 2002/3 Porsche Targa right now and they are about $35k less than MSRP with low miles. I figure I can drive it for 2-3 years, put 10K miles on it and sell it for $10K to $12K less than I paid for it - so cost of ownership would be $10-$12K for 2-3 years. Not bad.

Absolutely not if you're adding an extension to your residence that will bring more value. The value is in the physical extension of square footage to your home - not the stacked g90's you may or may not sell with the extension. Chances are that the buyer of your home won't be able to tell the difference between your g90's and a cheaper PJ set up. Will a theater add value to your home? Of course. Will it add $100k? Probably not. And if you tell the potential buyer how much you paid and how much you want just for your equipment, they'll probably tell you to take it with you.



See that's where we differ and in a big way. You see value in a home only in it's resale and in your work I can understand. I see value in it making it a better place for me ,my family and my guests. Any of us who are into this hobby,enjoy the research,implementation and presentation of the theaters we find plenty of value in what we bought for our lives. You specifically comment about bringing a buyer through and looking at my G90s, that's analogous to showing them my wifes art studio with all of the special lighting,storage systems,ventilation etc for her work. I didn't think about how any of that or my theater added to resale value...........hell this thought was completely off the radar. I thought only about how these things could add to our lives.

Do you look or listen to a piece of home theater gear and think about it's investment value ? :D

Art

Isn't it interesting that we have on the very same subforum people talking about 100K setups and also complaining about how quickly new technology that gives the same performance as their expensive projector for 1/4th the price.

Americans tend to confuse wants with needs. That's why you have people with 2 and 3 cars filing for bankruptcy.

In the overall scheme of things the happiness that people experience when they listen to their system isn't really related to the actual components in their system. To prove my statement, imagine you are sitting at your system ready to enjoy and you hear news that someone you love has just died. Your system was the same as it was just a few minutes ago, no one has even touched the cable lifters or changed the interconnects so that the arrows now point in the wrong direction. But, I guarantee you will not enjoy your system as much as you did the day before. The components, the room acoustic treatment, the music is the same but the enjoyment is severely diminished.
So the 'happiness' that people experience is not really in the components themselves, no matter how expensive they are.


I agree with everything in that post since it is essentially a truism but lets face it, this forum isn't in the least about needs so criticising folks for discussing these things in place specifically set up for these discussions sort of makes you the odd man not us.You could go onto a forum that is devoted to fine wine and say that Americans confuse wants and needs so why not drink water but it adds nothing.

Art

I'm with you Art.

When, like you, we renovated our home, the theater addition was a significant cost (and that's before any equipment was purchased:D). Design, construction, acoustical company for fabric and sound deadening materials, chairs, etc was not inexpensive. It is not difficult for me to measure the non-economical benefits of owning a reference theater. They are high. I did not add the theater to our renovation for resale value as I don't know that it'll add too much. But knowing I was going to be in my home quite a while, and the the fact that we dig our property and area of town, this was the one chance I had to get a 'real' theater in the house. I built it for me and the family, not for the next buyer years down the road. My house approachs 6000 sq ft like yours Herman (not incl. basement), sits on a lake and there was ample space for a 17 X 32 theater. It is on the main floor and unlike out more traditional woodworking, floors and decor for our Georgian Colonial, the theater is all deco themed and really a leap from our more traditional design. IT is like a cool secret room. I have no regrets in adding it to our design. It is a real treat to open the door to the room and know what ever the movie we throw in to watch, we get the audio/video experience like no other. THe theater was for me and the family (not for show) and we designed it into the home so that unless you knew we had a theater, you would never even know the space existed - no posters outside the door, no marquee, no nothing signifying a theater to the unassuming guest. This was our preferences (but I certainly do appreciate more extravagant designs). Nothing but a white door on one wall that would seem like a closet (exept for the heavy seal around it ;)). We like to fly under the radar and when acquiantances come over (kids parents, etc) who we do not know so well, we prefer them not to know we have such a room. The kids like it and most birthday parties end up with the kids in the theater. My wife and I like to take a bottle of wine in and watch a flick. We truly look forward to it. No car, boat, etc has yet to bring we that happiness.You cannot put a price on that.

To use another example, think of having children. Yes they will be a very significant cost over your life time and will certainly bring no economic gain (......ah how I could spend their college funds.....:)) but life without them would be dark, lack a deeper meaning and be devoid of so much internal happiness (along with some pain). Don't get me wrong, many have fulfilled lives without children, but I can't inagine such for myself. For me, I can't imagine my life without them. Again, no econmic gains with kids but ah the non-economic rewards.

Now mind you the theater / home cost did not dip into our finances deep enough to keep me from retiring or putting thre 3 kids through college. Of course, you have to keep mind of the overall costs and spend smartly. But I feel you can build a reference theater and not break the bank, and truly make gains from it..

I agree and will profer the following as proof. After my divorce, I was in my temporary apartment, listening to my temporary cheap Walmart home theater in a box system, when I learned that my cheating bitch ex-wife, who was awarded my house and stereo system when we got divorced, who's new boyfriend now listens to my system, died (my cheating bitch ex-wife) a horribly painful and sudden death. At that moment that Walmart system sounded like a pair of Wilson Alexandria's.

:eek:

This may make sense for someone who is concerned with appearances over function. However, I have found it makes far more sense to buy the vehicles thatare two years old with 25K miles on them, then sell them when they hit 80-100K. Minimum depreciation, minimum annual maintenance costs.

I write off some of the lease under my corporation so it works for me.
And I don't pay a penny for maintenance. Everything is covered under the factory warranty. And in 2 years I get another brand new car - not someone else's headache. Let me ask, how do you have minimum annual maintenance on a vehicle that has 25k to 100k miles? Nothing goes wrong?

Jeff,
Do your homework diligently when shopping for a used exotic. I have a friend who sold a 911 turbo and he beat the $hit out of the car. Still looked and ran great but I'm sure the new owner would never have bought it had he seen my friend drive the car. He buys and sells used exotic cars every few months. He just bought a used 05' Ferrari 360 Spider for $210,000 - sight unseen - over the internet. What a car. Nice to have that kind of cash. I don't even like to buy movies on DVD that I haven't seen. :D

If you can, buy from a dealership and ask about purchasing an extended factory warranty if they don't offer one. You'll spend more, but you'll have peice of mind. A porsche (or any exotic car) can take you for a $$$ ride, I remember my friend spending over $2k for a tune up and detailing from the dealership.

You guys have too much money.

I write off some of the lease under my corporation so it works for me.
And I don't pay a penny for maintenance. Everything is covered under the factory warranty. And in 2 years I get another brand new car - not someone else's headache. Let me ask, how do you have minimum annual maintenance on a vehicle that has 25k to 100k miles? Nothing goes wrong?

So....you don't change the oil or put tires on? Air filter?

Actually, most cars today really won't have anything go wrong before 80-100K miles. I just sold my F-350 (diesel, crew cab, dually - tow vehicle for my race team) with 94K miles on it. I bought it when it had 23K miles on it. I sold it for 9K less than I paid for it, and I've had it since 2000. During that time, I did nothing other than change oil, tires, and filters; none of those items are covered by warranty, and they all would need to be done during the first 30K miles.

When I sold it, I did put new brake pads on, as the OEM pads were nearing their service limit (it might not have passed inspection, and I'm friends with the guy who bought it).

My total depreciation cost was $1500/year. The fellow who bought it new took a depreciation hit of $17k in the first two years - $8500/year. Last time I did the math, I would have to have had a capital investment return rate of better than 350% for buying or leasing the new one to make sense vs, the two-year old model. Even if you had some significant maintenance costs at the 60-70K mark, it can't get you anywhere near the cost of the frst couple years' depreciation.


Back on topic - as our new HT is nearing completion, my wife and I are rolling up what we've spent and what it will be worth to us or a potential house purchaser. Rolled into the project, we have added about 1200 square feet of finished space, a playroom, bedroom, full bath, and the HT. Even counting the RSIC, extra drywall, insulation, safe'n'sound door, extra electrical runs, in-wall cabling, HVAC work, extensive lighting customization, etc., we have paid roughly $40/sq ft, not counting PJ, screen, furniture, etc. (we've done a lot of the work and purchasing ourselves). This is in an area where the building lots run $5-600K, so I basically feel that we've made a good investment. Even if a potential purchaser hated watching movies and wanted to turn the HT into a billiard room or office, I could get my money back out of the work. As it is, I now have a combination HT/study/rehearsal space for my kids and myself.

What's not to like?

It's too expensive! ... :sad:

I agree with everything in that post since it is essentially a truism but lets face it, this forum isn't in the least about needs so criticising folks for discussing these things in place specifically set up for these discussions sort of makes you the odd man not us.You could go onto a forum that is devoted to fine wine and say that Americans confuse wants and needs so why not drink water but it adds nothing.

Art

I'm not criticizing anyone but trying to put things in perspective. Sometimes we get so caught up in tweaking or extracting the nth degree of performance from our gear that we nitpick ourselves out of actually enjoying something that 99% of the people in this country haven't even experienced.

See that's where we differ and in a big way. You see value in a home only in it's resale and in your work I can understand. I see value in it making it a better place for me ,my family and my guests. Any of us who are into this hobby,enjoy the research,implementation and presentation of the theaters we find plenty of value in what we bought for our lives. You specifically comment about bringing a buyer through and looking at my G90s, that's analogous to showing them my wifes art studio with all of the special lighting,storage systems,ventilation etc for her work. I didn't think about how any of that or my theater added to resale value...........hell this thought was completely off the radar. I thought only about how these things could add to our lives.

Do you look or listen to a piece of home theater gear and think about it's investment value ? :D

Art

I agree with what you're saying Art, my problem is that I always try to look at something's value instead of focusing on how it will enhance my life. That is a problem for me.

So....you don't change the oil or put tires on? Air filter?

I do regular maintentance for both vehicles which I don't pay for. Certain maintenance items are included (oil changes, filters) from the dealership. I don't even change a flat tire - the dealership sends someone to fix it on the spot - no charge. Mercedes service is impeccable. They will actually come to my house, pick up my car, leave me a loaner, service my car, and drop it back off. Rover is close but not as good. The Rover dealer in Manhattan is actually better than the one in Woodbridge where I now service my truck because it's closer to my house. I usually get away with not putting tires on because I only put about 8k to 10k miles a year on a car. Brakes are the only thing I pay for. I can't see how 'most cars' won't have problems until 80k to 100k miles. My first car, a 1989 Jeep Wrangler Sahara, started having major problems right around 50k miles. I remember putting in around $4k for a new transmission and clutch. Then the alternator went, the water pump, starter, and a few other small items. Even my wife's car (then girlfriend) at the time, a 91' Bmw325 also had some problems which started around 60k miles, but weren't as major as my problems with the Jeep - mostly little things - but still problems.

I agree and will profer the following as proof. After my divorce, I was in my temporary apartment, listening to my temporary cheap Walmart home theater in a box system, when I learned that my cheating bitch ex-wife, who was awarded my house and stereo system when we got divorced, who's new boyfriend now listens to my system, died (my cheating bitch ex-wife) a horribly painful and sudden death. At that moment that Walmart system sounded like a pair of Wilson Alexandria's.

Wow... no bitterness there!

I agree and will profer the following as proof. After my divorce, I was in my temporary apartment, listening to my temporary cheap Walmart home theater in a box system, when I learned that my cheating bitch ex-wife, who was awarded my house and stereo system when we got divorced, who's new boyfriend now listens to my system, died (my cheating bitch ex-wife) a horribly painful and sudden death. At that moment that Walmart system sounded like a pair of Wilson Alexandria's.

Wow, did I ever have one of those moments. But my cheating bitch ex-girlfriend's boyfriend fell off a cliff. I can't say I was sad. He was an enormous dick (but they *did* deserve each other).

Did your ex call you immediately to cry on your shoulder too? :rolleyes:

Sure a Honda Accord drives just like a Benz S500. There's no difference at all. It's all in my head....how it makes me feel. :D And a Kawasaki feels just like a Donzi. Absolutely. While we're at it why don't I just pitch a tent on the beach and sell my 6,000 sqft house. Just like my $1500 Mitsubishi HC3000 PJ performs just like Jeff or Art's set up. :D :D It's easy to turn what we are both saying around. And I never judged anyone. You, however, did judge me for "wasting" my money on expensive cars. All I said in my OP was how is it relative to live in a $500k house and spend $100k or more on HT equipment. I never mentioned financial planning or 401k's. I'd wouldn't drive an s500 if it was beyond my means - I'd drive a Honda. :D I'm kidding Mike. Honda makes a great car. Hey - I'm 33 years old I still have time to blow $100k on a nice theater. :)

Herm

Oh by the way when was the last time you were out here in the west? You can't get anything in Phoenix or Tucson for 400k. Forget Arizona have you looked at real-estate prices in LA, SF or San Diego. They are in line with New York. I doubt very highly that most people in the 20k forum have homes much less than a million dollars. Us cowboys out here in the west have parked are horses fed the cows and actually do have careers as doctors, lawyers and own companies. We also have many other satisfying jobs. We all can't push paper in the real-estate world some of us have to go out and work for a living.

Wow, did I ever have one of those moments. But my cheating bitch ex-girlfriend's boyfriend fell off a cliff. I can't say I was sad. He was an enormous dick (but they *did* deserve each other).

Did your ex call you immediately to cry on your shoulder too? :rolleyes:

I thought he posted that his ex was the one that died. Anywho. It's fun posting in this forum because a few of the other forums have become ABC vs. XYZ and the I Love/Hate Blows forums.

I thought he posted that his ex was the one that died.
Correct. An imaginary "ex" for those who don't know me well enough to know that I was joking.

That's great Dean....then you go buy that Lamborghini or Ferarri for $250K because they have been measured to the Nth degree and you will know what you are getting

I would buy one, because they are proveably at the level of performance and quality for that price range, accounting of course for the reduced market size. They are some of the best cars you can buy and they prove themselves on the track and on the road. They are not two times the performance of the best car half the price of course, because it does cost more to wring more performance out. But these cars are not sold by marketing, they are sold based on their verified performance.

But these cars are not sold by marketing, they are sold based on their verified performance

You also crack me up.....

I could show you cars with verified performance at 1/3 the price that will outrun both those cars....but of course Dean you know what you are getting because they have been tested to the Nth degree. I would submit to you that those two cars are bought more for eye candy than for performance. I would even put my car up against those two for performance and see where the chips will fall.

Oh by the way when was the last time you were out here in the west? You can't get anything in Phoenix or Tucson for 400k. Forget Arizona have you looked at real-estate prices in LA, SF or San Diego. They are in line with New York. I doubt very highly that most people in the 20k forum have homes much less than a million dollars. Us cowboys out here in the west have parked are horses fed the cows and actually do have careers as doctors, lawyers and own companies. We also have many other satisfying jobs. We all can't push paper in the real-estate world some of us have to go out and work for a living.


I haven't been out west (for an extended period) since 95' (I was stationed at 29 Palms for 2 years). But the internet is a wonderous thing and I can easily find a beautiful detached 4,000 sqft home in Arizona for around $500k. $500k in NYC buys you nothing - literally. If you go 30 minutes outside NYC to a suburb, you can pick up a 2,000 sqft semi-attached home for around $500k. No other market is 'inline' with NYC real estate prices. No place in the world. And especially not Arizona. The last sentence of your post is as ignorant as they come. Don't be a hater cowboy.

You also crack me up.....

I could show you cars with verified performance at 1/3 the price that will outrun both those cars....but of course Dean you know what you are getting because they have been tested to the Nth degree. I would submit to you that those two cars are bought more for eye candy than for performance. I would even put my car up against those two for performance and see where the chips will fall.


You know I always said the same thing. I could never drop $200k on a car like that when I could get similar performance for less than half the price. But take a ride in a Ferrari - that distinct engine roar and the feeling of your neck snapping back as you instantaneously hit 80mph in second gear is exhilarating and scary at the same time - also quite distinct from any other ride I've been in. It really is overkill IMHO. I'd never buy one but I can see how someone with money and a passion for cars would.

You know I always said the same thing. I could never drop $200k on a car like that when I could get similar performance for less than half the price. But take a ride in a Ferrari - that distinct engine roar and the feeling of your neck snapping back as you instantaneously hit 80mph in second gear is exhilarating and scary at the same time - also quite distinct from any other ride I've been in. It really is overkill IMHO. I'd never buy one but I can see how someone with money and a passion for cars would.

Show up with $80K, and I'll show you a formula car that will eat a street-legal Ferrari or Lambo for breakfast on almost any closed-circuit road course you can name.

$20K will get you an open-wheel ride that will rival a Z06, and beat it on tracks with lots of tight corners.

Now, to be fair, the operating costs of either may be a bit more than you're used to..... ;)

Yes, Ferraris are great street cars, and they really are high-performance compared to other street-legal rides. On the track, however, single-seaters rule, and nothing street legal stands a chance against a purpose-built chassis.

But let us all not forget that according to Dean, they have been investigated to the Nth degree and you know what you are getting. I agree completely with the above two posts...I maintain that it is eye candy for those with money

First this is the USA not Iran

Second you dont have special powers that tell you what anyone owns. Or maybe you do I think PSA sells that now too.

Quit wasting bandwidth with insane posts.

This was Speco's post right after my initial post. Look at all the fun everyone's having in this thread, the most active, posted and viewed thread at this forum in some time. Who would have thought?

Speco never did apologize for being nasty! Oh well. He is just pissed cause he can't afford those nice cars you guys are talkin' about either. HA!

I haven't been out west (for an extended period) since 95' (I was stationed at 29 Palms for 2 years). But the internet is a wonderous thing and I can easily find a beautiful detached 4,000 sqft home in Arizona for around $500k. $500k in NYC buys you nothing - literally. If you go 30 minutes outside NYC to a suburb, you can pick up a 2,000 sqft semi-attached home for around $500k. No other market is 'inline' with NYC real estate prices. No place in the world. And especially not Arizona. The last sentence of your post is as ignorant as they come. Don't be a hater cowboy.

A few years ago before the real estate boom you could. Not so easy now though.

I haven't been out west (for an extended period) since 95' (I was stationed at 29 Palms for 2 years). But the internet is a wonderous thing and I can easily find a beautiful detached 4,000 sqft home in Arizona for around $500k. $500k in NYC buys you nothing - literally. If you go 30 minutes outside NYC to a suburb, you can pick up a 2,000 sqft semi-attached home for around $500k. No other market is 'inline' with NYC real estate prices. No place in the world. And especially not Arizona. The last sentence of your post is as ignorant as they come. Don't be a hater cowboy.

YeeHaw!! 4000sq ft in for 400k in Scottsdale, Phoenix, Paradise Valley or the foothills in Tucson. No way! Maybe in our outlying areas such as Queen Creek, Maricopa or Vail. Then all you have is a 2 hour commute each way. Arizona, Nevada, Colorado and California have change a lot over the last decade. Maybe before you bash the west you come out here and experience it for yourself. The last time you were here you were 23. I am sure you would appreciate it more now that you are older.

Nothing compares to New York City accept for a lot of places in California:

1 94027 ATHERTON, CA $2,496,553
2 93108 SANTA BARBARA, CA $2,176,251
3 92067 RANCHO SANTA FE, CA $2,144,254
4 92662 NEWPORT BEACH, CA $2,046,577
5 11765 MILL NECK, NY $1,948,636
6 94957 ROSS, CA $1,910,263
7 89402 CRYSTAL BAY, NV $1,806,962
8 07620 ALPINE, NJ $1,773,880
9 89413 GLENBROOK, NV $1,765,000
10 07976 NEW VERNON, NJ $1,760,000
11 11568 OLD WESTBURY, NY $1,759,206
12 90402 SANTA MONICA, CA $1,749,834
13 10013 NEW YORK, NY $1,635,000

Please do your homework.

This was Speco's post right after my initial post. Look at all the fun everyone's having in this thread, the most active, posted and viewed thread at this forum in some time. Who would have thought?

Speco never did apologize for being nasty! Oh well. He is just pissed cause he can't afford those nice cars you guys are talkin' about either. HA!


Steve,

To be honest I was a little offended by the thread when I frist read it. Now I have to agree with you. This is best thread in a long time! Thanks Steve!

PS: I have a Honda Pilot and it has been a great car. I think you will really like it.

Wow... no bitterness there!
p.s. I admit I was slightly bitter. She suffered in excruciating pain for only three hours. I had hoped for more.

Again, I'm JOKING :D. I can't take these "philosophical" debates over high-end purchases too seriously :). I think I pretty much agree with Bhagi's view.

Correct. An imaginary "ex" for those who don't know me well enough to know that I was joking.

Huh. I've heard of imaginary friends, but imaginary ex's with imaginary boyfriends confuses me.......

My particular ex actually *does* exist and the guy with whom she had an affair *did* fall off a cliff.

All I know is that my new Mazda doesn't even qualify for this forum, but I like it anyway ;)

Huh. I've heard of imaginary friends, but imaginary ex's with imaginary boyfriends confuses me.......

My particular ex actually *does* exist and the guy with whom she had an affair *did* fall off a cliff.
You own an NHT system. What did you expect from her?

You also crack me up.....

I could show you cars with verified performance at 1/3 the price that will outrun both those cars....but of course Dean you know what you are getting because they have been tested to the Nth degree. I would submit to you that those two cars are bought more for eye candy than for performance. I would even put my car up against those two for performance and see where the chips will fall.

'Performance' is not just speed. It's cornering, it's balance, it's accelleration and braking, it's the ability to perform at the edge for extended periods of time without breaking down. Top speed is obviously part of it.

Let's compare, shall we?

AMG SL55:

0 to 60: 4.7 seconds
Horsepower: 493 with 516 flbs of torque
Weight: 4235lbs
Cornering: ?
Top Speed: 150'ish

Lamboghini Murcielago:

0 to 60: 3.8 seconds
Horsepower: 580
Weight: 3638
Lateral Gs: ? (it's high, but not sure what it is)
Top Speed: 205mph


So I'm sorry to have to tell you that you a Lamborghini Murcielago (sp?) would spank your car fairly soundly. And that's not even the special edition version, just the regular coupe. The power difference is even more than it appears because of the weight difference. 100Lbs is worth around 10HP of performance. The special editions 3.4s and I think 640HP.

So you are getting a considerable amount of performance for that extra money. As I said, it's not the same differential as the price, but that's to be expected.

My particular ex actually *does* exist and the guy with whom she had an affair *did* fall off a cliff.

Pushed by you no doubt :D

'Performance' is not just speed. It's cornering, it's balance, it's accelleration and braking, it's the ability to perform at the edge for extended periods of time without breaking down. Top speed is obviously part of it.

Let's compare, shall we?

AMG SL55:

0 to 60: 4.7 seconds
Horsepower: 493 with 516 flbs of torque
Weight: 4235lbs
Cornering: ?
Top Speed: 150'ish

Lamboghini Murcielago:

0 to 60: 3.8 seconds
Horsepower: 580
Weight: 3638
Lateral Gs: ? (it's high, but not sure what it is)
Top Speed: 205mph

[...]

So you are getting a considerable amount of performance for that extra money. As I said, it's not the same differential as the price, but that's to be expected.

Formula Mazda

0-60: Irrelevant - you never slow down to 60 on a track. (Well, maybe in the pits) 6 selectable gearing ratios determine acceleration ranges, and are assigned based on the track.
HP: Roughly 240
Weight: 1090 lbs (including driver)
Lateral gs: Depends on wing settings, generally somewhere between 2 and 3
Top speed: Depends on wing settings.

Compare the power-to-weight ratios. Now look at handling.

Sorry, but the street-legal rides such as Lambos, Ferraris, etc., are WAY overpriced for their performance realtive to purpose-built race cars. Don't believe me? Look at the relative lap times for road race classes, and you'll find that the fastest cars are all in the purpose-built category - the 'stock' classes where Porsche, Ferrari, Viper, et al, reside are nowhere near as fast.

'Performance' is not just speed. It's cornering, it's balance, it's accelleration and braking, it's the ability to perform at the edge for extended periods of time without breaking down. Top speed is obviously part of it.

Let's compare, shall we?

AMG SL55:

0 to 60: 4.7 seconds
Horsepower: 493 with 516 flbs of torque
Weight: 4235lbs
Cornering: ?
Top Speed: 150'ish

Lamboghini Murcielago:

0 to 60: 3.8 seconds
Horsepower: 580
Weight: 3638
Lateral Gs: ? (it's high, but not sure what it is)
Top Speed: 205mph


So I'm sorry to have to tell you that you a Lamborghini Murcielago (sp?) would spank your car fairly soundly. And that's not even the special edition version, just the regular coupe. The power difference is even more than it appears because of the weight difference. 100Lbs is worth around 10HP of performance. The special editions 3.4s and I think 640HP.

So you are getting a considerable amount of performance for that extra money. As I said, it's not the same differential as the price, but that's to be expected.

Actually, top end on mine is 180

However, I will say again that all of the Ferarris and Lambos seen up and down the California streets and freeways are NOT bought for performance or because they have been investigated to the Nth degree but rather for eye candy by the very affluent...nothing more. Most of those driving them don't even have a clue as to their performance let alone ever gotten them to the stats that you mention above.

Don't believe me? Look at the relative lap times for road race classes, and you'll find that the fastest cars are all in the purpose-built category - the 'stock' classes where Porsche, Ferrari, Viper, et al, reside are nowhere near as fast.

I agree completely.

Dean doesn't have a clue and is way out of his comfort zone.

Statistics are for losers as one of my profs would say

We are obviously talking about road cars here. Obviously you could purchase a Formula 1 car and completley blow away any road car but a Vyron or McClaren or similar ilk, and I never claimed otherwise. But that's ridiculous since none of us are going to drive one of those on the road.

As to my not having a clue, you are the one who said you'd put your car up against a Lamboghini, when anyone with 'a clue' about cars would know perfectly well it wouldn't stand a chance. I agree that stats are for losers, when they are much lower than the other car's, which yours are relative to a Murcielago.

Is your ego so completey swollen that you choose to call me a loser or out of my league when you are the one who was wrong? You seem to think that because you have money that you are incapable of being wrong.

However, I will say again that all of the Ferarris and Lambos seen up and down the California streets and freeways are NOT bought for performance or because they have been investigated to the Nth degree but rather for eye candy by the very affluent...nothing more. Most of those driving them don't even have a clue as to their performance let alone ever gotten them to the stats that you mention above.

The fact that some people buy a product without appreciating its performance specifications doesn't mean that those specifications aren't available to back up the claimed performance. And those folks who want to buy something based on its performance can do so because with cars those specs are available and verified by multiple third parties.

Is your ego so completey swollen that you choose to call me a loser or out of my league when you are the one who was wrong? You seem to think that because you have money that you are incapable of being wrong.

Not as swollen as yours Dean..I never called you a loser

Perhaps out of your league

I never said that I would beat either car, I just said "let's see where the chips might fall"

As far as having money and never being wrong, that is just such a a dumb statement. I had to look twice to see if it was posted by John rather than by you

What really gets me about this thread is wherein we all place our realities.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to have a Lambo or a Ferarri. There is a Ferarri club here in Danville and once a year they close the main street and everyone has their car on display. Last show had several hundred

I read people lauding different wines and how they smell. Heck I can never smell a wine and tell that it has this scent or that taste but I can drink them and know what I like based on the taste and what I can afford. I can go into Starbuck's and read their labels on each and every coffee and how they also taste. Again I couldn't identify one from another but give me a good cup of coffeee and I will ask for it again.

The same analogy (IMO) resides in high end audio. I could give a rat's ass about statistics and curves and all of the bull$hit that guys like you and John try to inflict upon me and others who have put together systems of which we are proud. I will say as I have had countlessly that for me and what I buy is dictated by my ears and my wallet. All of this does not mean that I lack respect for you (John however is a different story :) ). It just seems to me that it is you who has a certain lack of respect for me as well as others who give our opinions on audio. It seems that the only opinion that counts or that has merit is yours

But that's kind of the point I was making to begin with. There are empirical measurements for video and cars, which people mostly to agree on as to their providing superior performance (for that type of product.) That doesn't exist for wines, since it's purely a matter of what you like and there's no standard to begin with. And it doesn't seem to exit for the audio world, though audio can be measured.

If individual users don't care about measurements and rational measures of performance, then that's really not a problem. It's their money and their life, though I still reserve the right to heckle if I think it's warranted. But I think that the thing that rankles most to us objectivists is that the audio industry itself seems to thrive on non-rational claims. When the industry itself drops all rational measurement of performance, it leads one to believe that they have no such measurements, in which case they should drop all claims of super-human engineering, or they do and those measurements indicate no real performance level to justify the cost.

As to my opinion being the only one that counts, my *opinion* is that it shouldn't be a matter of opinion but a matter of proveable performance. So it's a completely different kind of opinion.

Dean

If memory serves me correctly on at least 3 different occasions I invited you to my house to sit down and have a listen to my system but the excuse was that you were to busy with your Quarked business. You can heckle all you want, BUT I reserve similarly at this end

Dean,

How come you don't drive a Lambo? You seem to know them cold.

Man, if I was single, no kids, I'd probably have a pair of them.

My willie is large enough, I don't need a fancy car to compensate..;)

As to my opinion being the only one that counts, my *opinion* is that it shouldn't be a matter of opinion but a matter of proveable performance. So it's a completely different kind of opinion.

And so you continue to dictate to me and others as to how we should listen to audio or what to buy for our system. As I said I don't give a rat's a$$ as to your specs and frequency curves etc. It is all about me and my ass in the listening position ...nothing more and nothing less.

In medical school we used to talk about the term "will-nots". That was the little piece of poop that got stuck to our butt hairs and "will not fall off". To me Dean you can heckle all you want but I often see you as a "will-not" in these situations.

Dean,

How come you don't drive a Lambo? You seem to know them cold.

Man, if I was single, no kids, I'd probably have a pair of them.How come u don't run a 2:35 marathon? It appears u train quite a little bit ;)

What really gets me about this thread is wherein we all place our realities.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to have a Lambo or a Ferarri. There is a Ferarri club here in Danville and once a year they close the main street and everyone has their car on display. Last show had several hundred

I read people lauding different wines and how they smell. Heck I can never smell a wine and tell that it has this scent or that taste but I can drink them and know what I like based on the taste and what I can afford. I can go into Starbuck's and read their labels on each and every coffee and how they also taste. Again I couldn't identify one from another but give me a good cup of coffeee and I will ask for it again.

The same analogy (IMO) resides in high end audio. I could give a rat's ass about statistics and curves and all of the bull$hit that guys like you and John try to inflict upon me and others who have put together systems of which we are proud. I will say as I have had countlessly that for me and what I buy is dictated by my ears and my wallet. All of this does not mean that I lack respect for you (John however is a different story :) ). It just seems to me that it is you who has a certain lack of respect for me as well as others who give our opinions on audio. It seems that the only opinion that counts or that has merit is yours

Nice post ! I for one understand that data by itself won't describe all .The issue that I see is that there are some who are off the deep end with claims. Some are outlandish and almost religious (like some claims from herbalists for example). Some of these just beg to have claims challenged due to their extreme nature. More or less some of you who hear things in your systems which please them are not challenged ,at least I don't think, but when someone says that a power cord changed their life and in reality they probably couldn't tell it from something much less expensive, if called to do so ,results in all being lumped. Sort of like the old adage that every stereotype has some basis in fact.

The pigeon holing is a shame but the outlandish nature of some of the audiophile claims have drawn this I'm afraid.

Art

Nice post ! I for one understand that data by itself won't describe all .The issue that I see is that there are some who are off the deep end with claims. Some are outlandish and almost religious (like some claims from herbalists for example). Some of these just beg to have claims challenged due to their extreme nature. More or less some of you who hear things in your systems which please them are not challenged ,at least I don't think, but when someone says that a power cord changed their life and in reality they probably couldn't tell it from something much less expensive, if called to do so ,results in all being lumped. Sort of like the old adage that every stereotype has some basis in fact.

The pigeon holing is a shame but the outlandish nature of some of the audiophile claims have drawn this I'm afraid.

ArtI also like this post. Of course, I really kind of like Dean and he seems to be the underdog in this so.......

The pigeon holing is a shame but the outlandish nature of some of the audiophile claims have drawn this I'm afraid

I completely agree...perhaps the same could be said for video or any other high end hobby. For me I have never been so happy with my system. I am done. I feel that the journey honestly is over and I have reached audio nirvana. Now Art...as for my video end it is so woefully outdated that I intend in the coming year to pick the brains of you and Jeff and others as to how to get back in. After all I am hoping to be retired this time next month. I might have to make a trip to Michigan to learn from you guys. After all, isn't this what it is all about

I completely agree...perhaps the same could be said for video or any other high end hobby. For me I have never been so happy with my system. I am done. I feel that the journey honestly is over and I have reached audio nirvana. Now Art...as for my video end it is so woefully outdated that I intend in the coming year to pick the brains of you and Jeff and others as to how to get back in. After all I am hoping to be retired this time next month. I might have to make a trip to Michigan to learn from you guys. After all, isn't this what it is all about

As you know, you would be an honored guest in my home ! Jeff is only about an hour and a half east of me.

Art

...yes, but you could still always compensate for the lack of brains and personality.

:D


But men think with their donniker so I guess that means that Curt has no brains.

Art

I am going back to toronto in the next few months. I might take you up on your offer.

I am just trying to get my new venture off the ground (my medspa in Danville).

OK, all I know is that sometimes we earthlings are seriously twisted when it comes to money, and me first and foremost. And heck since this is a total vanity thread I might as well tell a story about myself to prove my point.

I just got back from Austin (Georgetown, actually) where I was interviewing builders for my new future house, and getting some work done on the transition house I bought. (Yes for those that have been following along, I ditched my old project and am starting fresh.) It's a pretty high-end country club community, for that area at least. I've never really been a part of such a thing before, frankly. Out here in Menlo Park (Silicon Valley) land is measured in square feet, not acres, even with a 7 figure investment.

So I'm in the bar at the club restaurant---the executive chef for which was hired away from a Four Seasons---knocking back a couple of Bass Ales with my dad. Waiting for a carpenter who never showed up.

Four beers later we get the bill. Six bucks.

DAMN! I mean, seriously, it turns out it was happy hour. But holy cow, even TWO so-called "premium" beers for six bucks? At a country club? Damn I'm psyched.

You guys can have your cars. I'll take than money and tap me a few kegs of Shiner Bock in the men's lounge at the club, thanks! Why is my mind so twisted that I can be spending big money on a home and still get psyched about cheap beer?

...yes, but you could still always compensate for the lack of brains and personality.

:DWhy that was so not QQQ, in that it wasn't clever, but just crass.

You guys can have your cars, I'll take than money and tap me a few kegs of Shiner Bock in the men's lounge at the club, thanks!That sounds absolutely great to me ;)

Then give me a call when you're in Texas! The Shiner's on me. :)

Time for us to get grounded, time for a man reality check ,time for us all to find that common ground. Thanks QQQ ! :D

http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p146/CarlosMeat/Keira-Agustina_Photo_180.jpg

Time for us to get grounded, time for a man reality check ,time for us all to find that common ground. Thanks QQQ ! :D

http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p146/CarlosMeat/Keira-Agustina_Photo_180.jpg


I know her...that's John's ex-wife just before her boyfriend fell off the cliff. She was in my office last week. See Art ...and you are the orthodontist. No frequency curves or graphs in my specialty...only the bare truth.

I know her...that's John's ex-wife just before her boyfriend fell off the cliff. She was in my office last week. See Art ...and you are the orthodontist. No frequency curves or graphs in my specialty...only the bare truth.

I had hoped that post was coming ! :p :)

Art

:)

I completely agree...perhaps the same could be said for video or any other high end hobby. For me I have never been so happy with my system. I am done. I feel that the journey honestly is over and I have reached audio nirvana. Now Art...as for my video end it is so woefully outdated that I intend in the coming year to pick the brains of you and Jeff and others as to how to get back in. After all I am hoping to be retired this time next month. I might have to make a trip to Michigan to learn from you guys. After all, isn't this what it is all about

You do not have to go to Michigan to learn about video. Come to Phoenix. I'll bring you over to Tim Martin's for his Blendzilla demo and you will be converted!!!!
Heck, we'll have a special AzAVClub meeting for the great OB!!! Even Mr. Audionut himself will come. (OB has bought a few tweaks from Audionut over the years, but he gets badgered enough over his moogahighend audio tastes so why raise that taboo. HA!)

Art

I am going back to toronto in the next few months. I might take you up on your offer.

I am just trying to get my new venture off the ground (my medspa in Danville).

I am jealous. We visited Toronto two years ago. Nice place!!!

Time for us to get grounded, time for a man reality check ,time for us all to find that common ground. Thanks QQQ ! :D

http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p146/CarlosMeat/Keira-Agustina_Photo_180.jpg

I certainly hope that's not a picture taken in your Orthodontist office!!
If so, she could be my next client!!!!

It is a great city--just in the wrong country---sorry Curt. Between PST and GST you spend an additional 15% on taxes. It goes I am sure to fund the federal medical care system.

As for Bob Williams at Audionut, a nicer man would be harder to meet.

:D

http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p146/CarlosMeat/Keira-Agustina_Photo_180.jpg

Thanks for the picture, Art. Folks, for those of you who always give me SH-T about
a tweak now and then, here's a nice lookin' fart your way!!!

It is a great city--just in the wrong country---sorry Curt. Between PST and GST you spend an additional 15% on taxes. It goes I am sure to fund the federal medical care system.

As for Bob Williams at Audionut, a nicer man would be harder to meet.

That is so true. Good reason to come to Az and visit us.

YeeHaw!! 4000sq ft in for 400k in Scottsdale, Phoenix, Paradise Valley or the foothills in Tucson. No way! Maybe in our outlying areas such as Queen Creek, Maricopa or Vail. Then all you have is a 2 hour commute each way. Arizona, Nevada, Colorado and California have change a lot over the last decade. Maybe before you bash the west you come out here and experience it for yourself. The last time you were here you were 23. I am sure you would appreciate it more now that you are older.

Nothing compares to New York City accept for a lot of places in California:

1 94027 ATHERTON, CA $2,496,553
2 93108 SANTA BARBARA, CA $2,176,251
3 92067 RANCHO SANTA FE, CA $2,144,254
4 92662 NEWPORT BEACH, CA $2,046,577
5 11765 MILL NECK, NY $1,948,636
6 94957 ROSS, CA $1,910,263
7 89402 CRYSTAL BAY, NV $1,806,962
8 07620 ALPINE, NJ $1,773,880
9 89413 GLENBROOK, NV $1,765,000
10 07976 NEW VERNON, NJ $1,760,000
11 11568 OLD WESTBURY, NY $1,759,206
12 90402 SANTA MONICA, CA $1,749,834
13 10013 NEW YORK, NY $1,635,000

Please do your homework.

I never bashed the west cowboy. I lived in CA for over 2 years and loved it. But I'm telling you that $1.6 mill in NYC will probably get you a small 2 bedroom apartment in Tribecca - if that. You want square footage in a prime location then you're looking at several million dollars. Outside of NYC in a nice suburb - $2 mill and up gets you approximately a 100 x 100 property with a 4 or 5 BR, 70 x 40 center hall colonial, 2 levels, 2 car garage and an ocean view (maybe), all with a 20 to 30 minute commute to Manhattan, and property taxes to match starting at $10,000 a year. I can also show you several properties here in the burbs of NYC that cost over $10 mill. In Manhattan you can spend $20, $30 even $40 mill on a fantastic apartment or townhouse.

According to Forbes, who compiled a list of the most expensive median home prices and zip codes for 2006, NY takes up 20% of the list of most expensive homes in the US. California takes up 50% of the list. The remaining states on the list were mostly filled in by Mass, Conn, NJ, Nevada, Florida, Arizona, and Colorado, NC was at the bottom of the list at 500th.

http://www.forbes.com/2006/04/17/06zip_most-expensive-zip-codes_cx_sc_0421intro.html

Again, nothing compares to real estate prices in NYC - other than CA. Please provide a link to back up what you are claiming cowboy. Bottomline is that my dollar (or anyone's dollar) will go farther out west when it comes to buying a house. I'm pretty sure that if I went to Arizona with the $2m proceeds from my current home, I could buy a MUCH nicer house in Arizona than I have now.

You're a trouble maker Steve. :D

BTW did you know that zip codes weren't implemented until the 1960's?

I never bashed the west cowboy. I lived in CA for over 2 years and loved it. But I'm telling you that $1.6 mill in NYC will probably get you a small 2 bedroom apartment in Tribecca - if that. You want square footage in a prime location then you're looking at several million dollars. Outside of NYC in a nice suburb - $2 mill and up gets you approximately a 100 x 100 property with a 4 or 5 BR, 70 x 40 center hall colonial, 2 levels, 2 car garage and an ocean view (maybe), all with a 20 to 30 minute commute to Manhattan, and property taxes to match starting at $10,000 a year. I can also show you several properties here in the burbs of NYC that cost over $10 mill. In Manhattan you can spend $20, $30 even $40 mill on a fantastic apartment or townhouse.

According to Forbes, who compiled a list of the most expensive median home prices and zip codes for 2006, NY takes up 20% of the list of most expensive homes in the US. California takes up 50% of the list. The remaining states on the list were mostly filled in by Mass, Conn, NJ, Nevada, Florida, Arizona, and Colorado, NC was at the bottom of the list at 500th.

http://www.forbes.com/2006/04/17/06zip_most-expensive-zip-codes_cx_sc_0421intro.html

Again, nothing compares to real estate prices in NYC - other than CA. Please provide a link to back up what you are claiming cowboy. Bottomline is that my dollar (or anyone's dollar) will go farther out west when it comes to buying a house. I'm pretty sure that if I went to Arizona with the $2m proceeds from my current home, I could buy a MUCH nicer house in Arizona than I have now.

You're a trouble maker Steve. :D

BTW did you know that zip codes weren't implemented until the 1960's?

You did not go as far as to bash the west all you said was "all of us with 100k systems live in 400k homes and have large debt to pay for them." Then you went into how you and your wife drive fancy cars and live in 2 million dollar homes and wear nice watches. I am sure that was to show us poor westerns how our money (if we had any) should be spent. If only someday I could make it New York. You know what they say: "If you can make in New York you can make any where."

I am excited for the next chapter in my life. I am going to sell my 100k system put my house on the market and come to NY. I hope you have a couch available because my family and I our mortgaged to the max and have no money to get started. Thanks for the wisdom and the couch. When I do make I hope you can put me in some real-estate so I can start to build my new 100k system. Hearing is believing!

D

Art, I thought my mother told you not to let anyone see that picture of her!

I'm not criticizing anyone but trying to put things in perspective. Sometimes we get so caught up in tweaking or extracting the nth degree of performance from our gear that we nitpick ourselves out of actually enjoying something that 99% of the people in this country haven't even experienced.

But this forum is for those individuals who WANT to tweak and extract the nth degree of performance. I'd need to repurchase my system 10 times over to hit $20,000 (but I have many times that number in student loans, so it balances). But this is where the people who are passionate about stereo reproduction chat, so it's where I come.

The wierd thing I see out here, in this neighborhood I'm in, is that you'll see a house which, back in semi-rural SC where I came from, would be something that you could afford with a Wallyworld shift manager salary. But there'll be a Z06 or baby Hummer or something like that parked out front, because here it costs $600K or $700K on a yard about the same size as the house.

But, a measure of how much money was flowing during the bubble years can be seen by just driving down the road I live on for a few blocks. There are at least 8 homes I can think of right off hand where someone would have payed that $600K for it, then they paid to tear it down and have the foundation reworked, and built another house on top of it that probalby cost another $500K. And that's just a few blocks on a nothing in particular street.

As far as real estate and the cost of homes is concerned I give kudos to Michael Grant. What you get in Texas for the same amount of money here in California amounts to acreage vs postage stamp lot vs 2000 sf home vs 6000 sf home. And there is no state tax to boot. Rock on Michael.

Wow, I didn't know Menlo Park was more expensive than suburban NYC!

OB, thanks for the well wishes. But let's be clear: there's no state income tax in Texas, but the property taxes are 2-3 times higher depending on where you live. And the assessments can go up by as much as 10% a year (though seniors do get genuine protection from being taxed out of their home). So taxwise, Texas is a better place than California to have a high income---as long as you don't sink too much of it into your house.

And of course, you gotta like where you're living, too. I love Menlo Park and can fully justify at least some of its price premium. Were it not for my family being in Texas I'd be staying here.

I agree completely.

Dean doesn't have a clue and is way out of his comfort zone.

Statistics are for losers as one of my profs would say

Statistically speaking, your prof' was probabily a loser.

You did not go as far as to bash the west all you said was "all of us with 100k systems live in 400k homes and have large debt to pay for them." Then you went into how you and your wife drive fancy cars and live in 2 million dollar homes and wear nice watches....

...And then I said how I have an el cheapo theater compared to many here.


I am sure that was to show us poor westerns how our money (if we had any) should be spent. If only someday I could make it New York. You know what they say: "If you can make in New York you can make any where."

I am excited for the next chapter in my life. I am going to sell my 100k system put my house on the market and come to NY. I hope you have a couch available because my family and I our mortgaged to the max and have no money to get started. Thanks for the wisdom and the couch. When I do make I hope you can put me in some real-estate so I can start to build my new 100k system. Hearing is believing! D

I think you're a bitter guy. You obviously misinterpretted my post and have become progressively more insulting with each of your posts. I'm done with you.

I for one understand that data by itself won't describe all .

Very true. However, you can always improve your model by analyzing where there are differences that your model (data) is missing. This is where the rub is for many of these claims; if you can't describe the difference in a manner that allows the objectivists to improve their model and data collection, they have a hard time believing there's a real difference at all.

The issue that I see is that there are some who are off the deep end with claims.

Yes, and what is bad about this is that many will use 'pseudo-scientific' descriptions to try to make people think that their claims have a basis. This type of yellow marketing can even cause engineers to short-change a product that may actually provide benefits.

when someone says that a power cord changed their life and in reality they probably couldn't tell it from something much less expensive, if called to do so ,results in all being lumped. Sort of like the old adage that every stereotype has some basis in fact.

Best statement I've seen on this topic yet!

i would also say the the difference in specs listed are irrelevant. those differences would not show up as most people do not have the abilities to drive like that.

Ob's car with a normal driver would get spanked by an VERY GOOD driver is a lesser car just like with most races. the driver has far more to do with things. unless we are on a track and drivers are more equal.

Nonetheless, almost nobody has ever bought a ferrari for its paper specs, they buy it for the jealous looks and the feeling of being in it. (and the optionalhot babes that come with it)

Statistically speaking, your prof' was probabily a loser.

but you get an F in spelling ;)

Nonetheless, almost nobody has ever bought a ferrari for its paper specs, they buy it for the jealous looks and the feeling of being in it.

just as I said.....eye candy

Folks, lets quit any bickering.

If anyone can find me a nice non-trashy home in the Scottsdale area, 4000 square feet, for only $400K to $500K,please show me. Or sell me yours. It ain't there. Homes have been goin' for close to $200 per square foot in decent areas. Now that's perhaps down a bit this past year, but not much.

Folks, lets quit any bickering.

If anyone can find me a nice non-trashy home in the Scottsdale area, 4000 square feet, for only $400K to $500K,please show me. Or sell me yours. It ain't there. Homes have been goin' for close to $200 per square foot in decent areas. Now that's perhaps down a bit this past year, but not much.

I helped my son by his first house in Scottsdale. 1275 sqft for 350k. There are just on that many bargins out there.

I assume you guys talking about 4000 sq ft homes do NOT include basements in that space..

Correct?

Here it depends on whether or not the basement is finished and heated. Because of small lots and limits on buildable area, a lot of new homes (teardown and rebuild) are going with finished basements to get some much needed square footage. In that case, the square footage is included in the total. In some cases here, that's the only way to legally get 4000 sq. ft. on the lot; and in other cases, it's the only way to do so and still have some yard left.

I assume you guys talking about 4000 sq ft homes do NOT include basements in that space..

Correct?


There are no basements in Arizona. There are a few but not too many. We don't have frost so they are not needed.

In my area, basements (finished or not) are not included in the sq ft.

Yeah, you do have to be clear on the conventions wherever you are. But having said what I said above, basements are not that common here in MP, and tend to be limited to newer higher-end homes ($3M and up). Off the top of my head I can't think of a house with a basement I've seen here for under $2M, but it's not like I watch super close.

I will say that one thing you get for that money is weather that you can't get in too many other places on earth. It's not so great right now, since we are having close to record breaking cold spell. But it's basically 9 months of late spring/early fall, a couple weeks here and there of summer in the middle of that 9 months, and three months of somewhat rainy but generally mild winter.

I don't think I could live in the SC/Charlotte area anymore where I grew up. I just couldn't stand the cold and the heat and the humidity. Here, beautiful spring-like days are so common that you can afford to waste them because tomorrow will be another one. Maybe you don't appreciate them quite as much because you have so many, but that's a problem I can live with.

Why that was so not QQQ, in that it wasn't clever, but just crass.
OK, you shamed me into deleting it. Curt and I are always tweaking each others noses, it was meant only in fun.

OK, you shamed me into deleting it. Curt and I are always tweaking each others noses, it was meant only in fun.Oh, I didn't know that. I thought you were somewhat serious, at least as serious as QQQ can be.

Art, I thought my mother told you not to let anyone see that picture of her!

Well if that ain't the best reason for me to accept why people call me a MF !

Art

OK, you shamed me into deleting it. Curt and I are always tweaking each others noses, it was meant only in fun.

Well I was highly offended.





As offended as a (mostly) troll in the >$20K forum can be.




:p ;) :D

There are no basements in Arizona. There are a few but not too many. We don't have frost so they are not needed.

I have a basement here in Gilbert!!!@@@ :eek:

Well if that ain't the best reason for me to accept why people call me a MF !

Art

You're a MF cause you've got large molars (he's an Orthodontist) and a big wide
screen. :confused:

You're a MF cause you've got large molars (he's an Orthodontist) and a big wide
screen. :confused:

I liked my orthodontist and having braces was not so bad. The bimaxillary osteotomy that I also needed well, that was a MF (although the surgeon was also a great guy!!)

:D

I've learned that you never go to an Orthodontist and ask "do I need braces?"

Basements are very common here but are usually not included in the square footage of the home unless the basement meets certain criteria.

Your own arguments completely disqualify your post Herman....

I live in rural Louisiana and my house is worth 500k and is 3500 liv/5000 under roof. (and i paid 118 sqft). For me and my wife, there is more space than we will need for the next 10 years (both 30, kids later)...I can drop 100k into a theater, and you would say "thats silly, its 25% of the value"

However, that equipment (the 100k) is a fairly "static" price (ie, 100k theater is the same thing in an apartment or in the Biltmore).

You are using very very simple and false logic to make your assumptions that spending 25% of a homes value on a theater is not wise......Spend a 100k on your 2MM house an oohh boy, only 5%....we still have the same theater.

for 200/sqft out here I can get fine finishings, so what the hell am i going to do with a 10,000sqft house to make your ratio happy????

just ridiculous.....

I also love my 750Li 36/mo lease at 85% write off.....a point we agree on....i earned my money, I would rather spend it in a manner it can be written off and avoid paying people to fill up two shopping carts at wal-mart with fudge rounds and watch oprah all day. I think a lot of people here get employee wages and dont understand the concept that spending is sometimes better!


I don't understand how some of you do it. You live in a house worth $400k or $500k (somewhere out west) and spend over $100k or more on your theaters. My house is worth about $2 million (with a very small mtg) and I can't bring myself to spend more than $40k on ALL of my equipment....including my 2 plasmas upstairs. :D I've considered leaving the city - selling and moving out west or down south. Buy a nice big house all cash and then spend 100k on my theater. ;) I love the finer things - I own a big house on the beach in a nice NYC suburb, drive an S500, wife drives a Rover, own a Donzi, wear a Rolex, buy all of Jeff's wine recommendations :) .....I just don't see the value of spending 100k on a/v gear. If I had another 100k to blow (expendible cash) I'd buy another investment property - not an amp, speakers, or a projector. I'm not trying to bait anyone or offend anyone so please don't flame me for this - I just don't get the relativity of spending that type of cash when it appears to be above some of your means. I've read some stories of members on this forum refinancing their primary residences to pull cash out to build a home theater. :eek:

Some of you guys have the cash for this type of spending - but I'm going to guess that some of you who post here don't. And you spend it anyway. Why? Can't you be happy with 30k or 40k worth of gear instead of 100k. Is the difference in sound and picture quality worth that much extra cash when you don't really have the cash?

If watching movies is your primary form or recreation, as it is for me, then $100K wouldn't be an unreasonable amount to spend, if you compare it to the things that people spend on their other recreational activities (some of which results in no tangeable assets at all, such as travel) over the period of time that I'd use that home theater. The theater will be quite good for say 5 years easily, probably more like 7. How much would you spend on vacations and watches and wines and so forth during that period of time? And they don't even add to the value of the home.

I agree and will profer the following as proof. After my divorce, I was in my temporary apartment, listening to my temporary cheap Walmart home theater in a box system, when I learned that my cheating bitch ex-wife, who was awarded my house and stereo system when we got divorced, who's new boyfriend now listens to my system, died (my cheating bitch ex-wife) a horribly painful and sudden death. At that moment that Walmart system sounded like a pair of Wilson Alexandria's.

LOL! You made my morning with that one! :)

Oy vey y'all. You want to talk about hobbies people don't understand? How about stamp collecting? $$$ for an ittybitty piece of paper that was printed incorrectly. Women shouldn't complain, they have theirs as well. My wife is a handbag fanatic. My response to an assertion that my equipment is expensive? I simply respond that on a material and utility basis it's a hell of a lot cheaper than a $7,500 Hermes Birkin with an easily quantifiable improvement over lesser equipment.

For every hobby, for every hobbyist, there's a naysayer who'll deride the hobby and the person for pursuing it. I happen to love old reel to reel tapes and equipment. I've spent more than some spend on their entire systems refurbishing decks (the latest being two Studer A820s). I also love cars and high-end car audio (yes, such a thing exists, google Brax, Focal, Audiotec Fischer, Sinfoni, Audison, etc). Some are history buffs and will pay fortunes for artifacts from, say, the Civil War. We all have divergent interests. All societies are different and different hobbies are treated differently.

As for cars; after a LONG while I've seen them for what they are, a depreciating hunk of metal that (barring exceptional cases) depreciate so quickly as to not be fit to call an asset. I now buy accordingly. It's astonishing how little you can pay for a one year old car with less than 10,000 miles on it that would otherwise be a complete budget-buster. Same goes for new audio equipment. Deals CAN be had. It's all in the relationships. Fortunately, unlike Bose, most of the stuff 'we' deal in doesn't have hard MAP pricing.

Glad to know I'm not the only one buying Birkin bags.....

Oy vey y'all. You want to talk about hobbies people don't understand? How about stamp collecting? $$$ for an ittybitty piece of paper that was printed incorrectly. Women shouldn't complain, they have theirs as well. My wife is a handbag fanatic. My response to an assertion that my equipment is expensive? I simply respond that on a material and utility basis it's a hell of a lot cheaper than a $7,500 Hermes Birkin with an easily quantifiable improvement over lesser equipment.

For every hobby, for every hobbyist, there's a naysayer who'll deride the hobby and the person for pursuing it. I happen to love old reel to reel tapes and equipment. I've spent more than some spend on their entire systems refurbishing decks (the latest being two Studer A820s). I also love cars and high-end car audio (yes, such a thing exists, google Brax, Focal, Audiotec Fischer, Sinfoni, Audison, etc). Some are history buffs and will pay fortunes for artifacts from, say, the Civil War. We all have divergent interests. All societies are different and different hobbies are treated differently.

As for cars; after a LONG while I've seen them for what they are, a depreciating hunk of metal that (barring exceptional cases) depreciate so quickly as to not be fit to call an asset. I now buy accordingly. It's astonishing how little you can pay for a one year old car with less than 10,000 miles on it that would otherwise be a complete budget-buster. Same goes for new audio equipment. Deals CAN be had. It's all in the relationships. Fortunately, unlike Bose, most of the stuff 'we' deal in doesn't have hard MAP pricing.


great post

Glad to know I'm not the only one buying Birkin bags.....

Jeff what make up and do you wear when you are out for the evening?

sorry but I couldn't resist. :D

I will say that one thing you get for that money is weather that you can't get in too many other places on earth. It's not so great right now, since we are having close to record breaking cold spell. But it's basically 9 months of late spring/early fall, a couple weeks here and there of summer in the middle of that 9 months, and three months of somewhat rainy but generally mild winter.

I don't think I could live in the SC/Charlotte area anymore where I grew up. I just couldn't stand the cold and the heat and the humidity. Here, beautiful spring-like days are so common that you can afford to waste them because tomorrow will be another one. Maybe you don't appreciate them quite as much because you have so many, but that's a problem I can live with.

Come on Dean its still beautiful here, I bet my taxes on 210 acres is close to what you have out there on 1/2 acre? And just a half hour ride from Weddington/Waxhaw to downtown Charlotte.

Jeff what make up and do you wear when you are out for the evening?

sorry but I couldn't resist. :D

OB,

I freely admit womens (and mens) fashion bring out my gay alter ego. Get me near a Zegna or Lora Piana boutique and my ass wiggles my wallet right out of my back pocket:D..

(I have to admit...the wives three favorite bags are ones I picked out for her....no she didn't exchange them ;) .

OB,

I freely admit womens (and mens) fashion bring out my gay alter ego. Get me near a Zegna or Lora Piana boutique and my ass wiggles my wallet right out of my back pocket:D..

(I have to admit...the wives three favorite bags are ones I picked out for her....no she didn't exchange them ;) .

well Jeff I need to get you out here to Danville to my Medspa for a little do-over

well Jeff I need to get you out here to Danville to my Medspa for a little do-over

Jeff is in Detroit, so be sure to thaw the Snowbird gently at room temperature........

the wives three favorite bags

now that is an expensive hobby...multiple wives...

Glad to know I'm not the only one buying Birkin bags.....


I can see you walking down the street yelling out to no one in particular "It's not a purse, it's European!" :D

Tell me about your med spa?

Anything like what you get at the Aman resorts?

Tell me about your med spa?

Anything like what you get at the Aman resorts?

was that a question for me?

What services do you provide? Overnight? Food? A place to spend a weekend at?

For threads like these.

My system has cost me over $202,000

speakers ... $1,000
source components ... $700
Projector ... $300 (Used CRT)
subwoofer (saving up)

House to hold it all... $200,000


So I look down on all you fools who only spent $20,000.

My system has cost me over $202,000

speakers ... $1,000
source components ... $700
Projector ... $300 (Used CRT)
subwoofer (saving up)

House to hold it all... $200.000


So I look down on all you fools who only spent $20,000.

I just had a 75K addition built on the house, peasant.

Because I finally qualified for an American Express card. And here I am!

Because I'm compiling a "more money thean brains" list.

Oy vey y'all. You want to talk about hobbies people don't understand? How about stamp collecting? $$$ for an ittybitty piece of paper that was printed incorrectly. Women shouldn't complain, they have theirs as well. My wife is a handbag fanatic. My response to an assertion that my equipment is expensive? I simply respond that on a material and utility basis it's a hell of a lot cheaper than a $7,500 Hermes Birkin with an easily quantifiable improvement over lesser equipment.

For every hobby, for every hobbyist, there's a naysayer who'll deride the hobby and the person for pursuing it. I happen to love old reel to reel tapes and equipment. I've spent more than some spend on their entire systems refurbishing decks (the latest being two Studer A820s). I also love cars and high-end car audio (yes, such a thing exists, google Brax, Focal, Audiotec Fischer, Sinfoni, Audison, etc). Some are history buffs and will pay fortunes for artifacts from, say, the Civil War. We all have divergent interests. All societies are different and different hobbies are treated differently.

As for cars; after a LONG while I've seen them for what they are, a depreciating hunk of metal that (barring exceptional cases) depreciate so quickly as to not be fit to call an asset. I now buy accordingly. It's astonishing how little you can pay for a one year old car with less than 10,000 miles on it that would otherwise be a complete budget-buster. Same goes for new audio equipment. Deals CAN be had. It's all in the relationships. Fortunately, unlike Bose, most of the stuff 'we' deal in doesn't have hard MAP pricing.


very well positioned and phrased. basically, the old saying "different strokes, for different folks" , and "one mans violin is another mans fiddle" hold true. i believe that whatever "floats your boat", or "makes your elevator go to the top" is great as long as it's legal, and does not harm or place others in danger.

don't forget that there are some people who are very happy with the music that comes from their sony clock radio!!

I came for the high-end projectors...

I stayed for the trash talk.

:D


+1.

Coming here is like a religion.

I want to see what people believe in.

;)

Ken! The place isn't the same without you! My god ValhallaPC is but a mere ant in your presence! Where ya been?

Wow, a KBK sighting. Good to see you still around Ken!

I've been fighting a different war for a while.

I have a DEQX 2.6P now, as well. I've been having fun with it. I must have taken it apart and put it back together at least 20 times, and I've only had it for two weeks. I've completely rebuilt the unit so it would retail for about $12k. DEQX is cool with that, otherwise, I'd never mention it.

Will be at the Montreal Audio show in April. Speakers will be there. My new cables will be there. The acoustics will be there. I've paid for the hotel, non-refundable, so ..I guess I'm going. No turning back now. We will have our own Room. It will not be a Goo room. It will be a room from my (our) new venture. I'm still with Goo, yes, and I will likely spend some time with the folks representing Goo, might even have Goo screen in our room, but our emphasis is STRICTLY the 110%, balls-to-the-wall, unlimited speed and modifications, no frikin' prisoners, high end AUDIO. The speakers take no prisoners, BTW. As I have claimed before. Same for the acoustics. Same for the cables. All three are extremely likely to be the best you have ever heard. Period. You will learn, if you don't already know...that I don't do 'hype'. A bit hard take in print at times, yes. Hype? No.

So this is that moment guys. High noon. Dodge City. I will prove the things I have said. In person, to your eyes and ears. And I am 100% entirely unfraid of being even remotely wrong. It's not ego, either, please don't mistake it as such. :) We (my biz partner and I, who has done the acoustics for 60 films, BTW- not even remotely his full resume!) are finally going to show product. The cables are a mindblower. Bring your best cable. I will swap it in. Bring a Tara Labs Zero if you want to. Whatever you can muster. This will top it, in an obvious manner. Etc, etc. What I am happy about, is the chance to finally share all this stuff I've been enjoying for years.

You will learn, if you don't already know...that I don't do 'hype'.

I guess I still have a lot to learn :)

I've been fighting a different war for a while.

I have a DEQX 2.6P now, as well. I've been having fun with it. I must have taken it apart and put it back together at least 20 times, and I've only had it for two weeks. I've completely rebuilt the unit so it would retail for about $12k. DEQX is cool with that, otherwise, I'd never mention it.

Will be at the Montreal Audio show in April. Speakers will be there. My new cables will be there. The acoustics will be there. I've paid for the hotel, non-refundable, so ..I guess I'm going. No turning back now. We will have our own Room. It will not be a Goo room. It will be a room from my (our) new venture. I'm still with Goo, yes, and I will likely spend some time with the folks representing Goo, might even have Goo screen in our room, but our emphasis is STRICTLY the 110%, balls-to-the-wall, unlimited speed and modifications, no frikin' prisoners, high end AUDIO. The speakers take no prisoners, BTW. As I have claimed before. Same for the acoustics. Same for the cables. All three are extremely likely to be the best you have ever heard. Period. You will learn, if you don't already know...that I don't do 'hype'. A bit hard take in print at times, yes. Hype? No.

So this is that moment guys. High noon. Dodge City. I will prove the things I have said. In person, to your eyes and ears. And I am 100% entirely unfraid of being even remotely wrong. It's not ego, either, please don't mistake it as such. :) We (my biz partner and I, who has done the acoustics for 60 films, BTW- not even remotely his full resume!) are finally going to show product. The cables are a mindblower. Bring your best cable. I will swap it in. Bring a Tara Labs Zero if you want to. Whatever you can muster. This will top it, in an obvious manner. Etc, etc. What I am happy about, is the chance to finally share all this stuff I've been enjoying for years.

Maybe not hype but surely getting a waft of hyperbole here....... So in another 2 month someone's ego is going apeshit or it'll be dead silence with nowhere to show your face again..... why couldn't you just wait another 2 months? :rolleyes:

Congratualtions Ken on getting those speakers finally done - I know it's been a long time dream of yours..

I hope they are a success for you and Taras..

Montreal will be worth the drive/flight just to see Ken "walk-the-walk" !
I was going to pass on this year's Montreal Festival Son & Image, but now that there is Ken's Show & Tell, count me in.

http://www.fsiexpo.com/frames_v_EN.html

- Andy

Look, my biggest digs on Ken have been of the "put up or shut up" variety. (Well, maybe second place to "that's a crock of...") If Screen Goo is any indication, then when Ken does actually get something sellable out the door, it's good. I won't be in Montreal, but now I am looking forward to the reports on the speakers. The cables of course are a different story :)

Best wishes Ken!

OT or is there a topic any more...

Originally Posted by thebland
Glad to know I'm not the only one buying Birkin bags.....
So Jeff, just came back from Beijing... Very, very nice Birkin replicas - $15.00 all you can eat. See the Great Wall and fill your Xmas list too!

OT or is there a topic any more...


So Jeff, just came back from Beijing... Very, very nice Birkin replicas - $15.00 all you can eat. See the Great Wall and fill your Xmas list too!

UNfortunately, my wife can sniff out a fake a block away.;)

UNfortunately, my wife can sniff out a fake a block away.
The question is, can her friends?

Honestly, I only think she has one friend who knew what it was. Most say, "wow..great bag'.. and then go on. My wife likes to fly under the radar so when asked who makes it or how much did it cost, she just says, "my husband bought it for me"... I don't think she has ever uttered the price - not to her best friends or her mother.

For her upcoming 40th birthday, she wants another.

It's funny I think. IMO China is the Star Trek Replicator. You can buy different levels of quality in the knock offs. These bags came with the card, date stamp, etc. Very difficult to tell from the real thing IMO.

The irony is just down the street are malls as nice as Somerset with designer stores selling the real thing. And the Chinese want the real thing. They will tell you the fakes are for tourists.

Congrats to her on her 40th and be sure to get her "The Birkin".

Wow, a KBK sighting. Good to see you still around Ken!

Oh my. What's next? :)

Holy crap... A poindexter sighting!!!!

Oh my. What's next? :)

Great to see you here Mike ! :)

Art

Man, I know I dont even belong here with you big ballers, but I was just doing a spreadsheet of what I've spent on my system and WOW, I cannot believe I've gone over the $20k mark!! :o

Not that I'm mad, because lord knows I'm loving it, but never in my wildest dreams I thought I would be able to one day have a system like this (albeit I've built it little bit at a time)..........here are the MSRP/Paid Prices:

Pioneer Elite Pro-1130 Plasma $ 6000/$4600
Denon DVD 3910 (with power mods) $1500($800)/$1299($200)
Proceed AVP2+6 $7500/$2500
Earthquake Cinenova 5x300W amp $4500/$2500
B&W Nautilus 802N $8000/$5500
Swan Diva 6.1 $1300/$1000
DIY WMTW Center channel $500
DIY twin 18" avalanche Large EBS subs $3000
DIY Cables/interconnects $400

Grand totals: $34500 / $21500

:eek: ....dunno whether to be happy or freak out

Honestly, I only think she has one friend who knew what it was. Most say, "wow..great bag'.. and then go on. My wife likes to fly under the radar so when asked who makes it or how much did it cost, she just says, "my husband bought it for me"... I don't think she has ever uttered the price - not to her best friends or her mother.

For her upcoming 40th birthday, she wants another.

Better get to your local Hermes, there is a long wait at the one here in Boston. ;p

Man, I know I dont even belong here with you big ballers, but I was just doing a spreadsheet of what I've spent on my system and WOW, I cannot believe I've gone over the $20k mark!! :o

Not that I'm mad, because lord knows I'm loving it, but never in my wildest dreams I thought I would be able to one day have a system like this (albeit I've built it little bit at a time)..........here are the MSRP/Paid Prices:

Pioneer Elite Pro-1130 Plasma $ 6000/$4600
Denon DVD 3910 (with power mods) $1500($800)/$1299($200)
Proceed AVP2+6 $7500/$2500
Earthquake Cinenova 5x300W amp $4500/$2500
B&W Nautilus 802N $8000/$5500
Swan Diva 6.1 $1300/$1000
DIY WMTW Center channel $500
DIY twin 18" avalanche Large EBS subs $3000
DIY Cables/interconnects $400

Grand totals: $34500 / $21500

:eek: ....dunno whether to be happy or freak out

I refuse to go through this exercise. :D

Actually, that's a good exercise:

Marquee 9500LC $38K/$1K
NEC IPS 4000Q $10K/$1K
Panasonic DVD player $99/$99
BEV/Dish 6000 receiver $1000/800
Denon 3803 receiver $1000/500
Inter M power amps (2) $800 each/450 each
Community PA rig $10K total/500 total

While not appropriate in this forum, it would be interesting to see who paid the LEAST for their system. I'm sure I rank up there..;) (or down there as it were)

The cheap version of the cable (interconnect) just trounced Valhalla. The Valhalla was 1M, and mine was 2M. This, from a Nordost dealer. Which one, shall remain nameless.....

My cable was also brand new, not burned in in any way, shape, or form. It gets far better after burn in. Far better. Remember, it was also twice as long. These things add up to a huge difference.

It will very likely trounce the Zero as well.

The speaker cables are notably more mind boggling.

An amazing digital cable also exists.

These cables seem to literally remove the cable as an area of concern. Ie, Pre power pairs sound more like intergrateds, as if the cable contributes...nothing. The last complaint of seperate components.... is removed. And I have only just begun. As an example, I came up with something far superior to RSC, about 5 years before Matthew Bond did...but I never published, or told anyone, obviously. And what I came up with then, is still far superior to anything he's done yet. And this stuff is far, far beyond any of that.

The few people who have tried the cables...absolutely refuse to give them back.

Andy: You are in T-O? and what cables do you use? I might be convinced to drive by and do an audition.

Note that I mention no pricing. I have no desire to take food off of anyone's table based on perception, vs hard existent realities.

Bond is a joke. Not James though.