I would like to see if someone can look at these numbers and tell me if they look right and if the graphs look like it would produce a descent sounding sub (sealed design). I used Winisd to show the box with a volume of 2.0^3. I used the 2.0^3 number based from the information on this driver on the TC Sounds webpage. That then showed me a Qtc of .4. I then entered the driver parameters into Unibox. I input the .4 in the "Wanted Qtc" box and used the optimize. This produced a "Physical Vb of 70.5". This sub will be going in the family room approximately 3300 cubic feet. Sorry for the doc files but I could not figure another way to get the informaiton in. Thanks.

I assume you are trying to model the 12" TC-2K SVC?

If so, the Sd you have in the parameters is too low.

Fs 20.00 Hz
Re 3.12 Ohm
Qms 3.72
Qes 0.28
Sd 480.0 cm2
Vas 77.3 l
Xmax 28.00 mm
Le 2.41 mH
Le2 0.00 mH
Re2 0.00 Ohm

60 liters gives me a Qtc of about .4


I'd get the 15" though, especially because your room is 3300 cuft. Higher output and better extension and not much more $$$.

Willd,

Thanks for the response. I may have put the cart before the horse. The 2000 is on the way (since with a little work it will go into an existing box). May I ask where you came up with the SD parameter? The reason I ask is this is my first time using the program and used available information. Also, for the Qtc, is this a good value for this driver? I would like to ask a few mores questions if you do not mind.

1) With the SD parameter you used puts the liters to 60. I calculated this to be 2.119^3. I am looking the 2.0 cabinet from parts express which uses 3/4 MFD. Would this box not be stiff enough? And would adding fill, make the driver think this is close enough to 2.119?

2) Would the O audio 500 Watt Bash be a nice match for this? I have looked at this , the DAYTON HPSA1000-R 1000W RACKMOUNT or the EP1500.

Thanks for your time and help

That Sd parameter is pretty much the sd of their 12" aluminum cone. I believe WinISD calculates it at 477cm^2.

1) It doesn't have to be exact at all with a sealed sub. The 2ft^3 cabinet would be fine. Most recommend adding some thickness to the walls. You'd be fine with just lining the walls I think.

2) It is a nice amp and it would work well with it, but more power could be utilized. I like the Oaudio's features though.

I assume you are trying to model the 12" TC-2K SVC?

If so, the Sd you have in the parameters is too low.




Which brings up a great question - how do you determine Sd? I haven't found it in any of the manufacturers' data for their drivers, but quite a few of the 'unofficial' models I've seen give a number of 1140cm^2 for a 15" driver - is this a decent approximation for modelling?

What type of lining are you referring to? I do have some 3/4 MFD in the basement that I could cut and add inside the box for the left and right walls. I am not sure if that would drop my parameters that much though. Thanks again.

I was actually referring to lining such as fiberglass insulation and poly batting.

But yeah, adding some MDF to the walls on the inside wouldn't be a bad idea and I believe it is often suggested when using these boxes.

And by my simulations you'll be perfectly ok because the Q is very low even at 1.5ft^3 net.

Great. Thank you very much again for your time and help.

Which brings up a great question - how do you determine Sd? I haven't found it in any of the manufacturers' data for their drivers, but quite a few of the 'unofficial' models I've seen give a number of 1140cm^2 for a 15" driver - is this a decent approximation for modelling?

I just use the Sd that make sense based upon what TC has said and what looks right in Unibox and WinISD (since it calculates it).

That is way too high for a 15" driver..thats actually pretty close to the average 18" driver's Sd.

The 15" aluminum cones from TC Sounds are somewhere in the 805-850cm^2 area.

Great. Thank you very much again for your time and help.

:cool:

Hi guys, didn't want to start a new tread so I'll ask for your advice here.

I'm looking at the TC2000 or 3000 either SVC or DVC. If I go sealed, for a 2400cuft room, would it be destructive and what would be the resulting SPL at 20-80hz? How much power would be ideal?

Thanks

I've been playing around with modeling the TC-3000 in an 85L (3cf) sealed box, heavily stuffed.
Fb = 32.64 hz
F3 = 60.26 hz
Qtc = .434
Unibox estimates 118db at 80 hz with 1000w of power. At that power, xmax is not reached until 11hz. In a small to medium sized room, the natural gain will fill in the low end nicely.

-Robert

Thanks Rob, what about the TC2000?

Thanks again

The TC-2K in a 100l box (walls lined) with 1000W would give you:

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c199/wadeere/CBResponsesealedTCSoundsTC-200015.gif

That looks like a 3.5cuft box. Would the PE 3cuft work just as good or close?

Sure it would.

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c199/wadeere/CBResponseTCSoundsTC-200015.gif

WOW! Looks very nice!

Stuff the box or line the walls?

I keep looking at the 3.0 box from PE also for my soon to be arrived 2000 SVC (12). The only thing for me on the box is I plan on putting the sub behind the TV so it way be a little wide. I am also looking maybe having one made. My wife it cracking up because now I need the feed back destoyer component and a nice amp. Funny how little projects snowball.

WOW! Looks very nice!

Stuff the box or line the walls?

I'd just line the walls. That simulation is with the walls lined and the Qtc = .6

I noticed that the mounting dept for these drivers would hit the bracing of the PE boxes.

PE-7.75
TC-8.75

I had seen that also, but if I went with one I would remove the brace that came with it and make another ot two and install them. Are you thinking plate amp or external?

Where is the depth of the bracing info available?

I had seen that also, but if I went with one I would remove the brace that came with it and make another ot two and install them. Are you thinking plate amp or external?

I'd go external in order to get all the cuft. :D

Where is the depth of the bracing info available?


http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=302-820

Then click on the thumbnail graph

I am looking at the EP1500 but would really like a amp with auto on-off.

I just use the Sd that make sense based upon what TC has said and what looks right in Unibox and WinISD (since it calculates it).

That is way too high for a 15" driver..thats actually pretty close to the average 18" driver's Sd.

The 15" aluminum cones from TC Sounds are somewhere in the 805-850cm^2 area.

I got 823cm^2 from Unibox.

I am looking at the EP1500 but would really like a amp with auto on-off.

You could go with the BKA-1000. It has auto on/off.

willd, can you give me all the graphs using Unibox showing the TC2000 in a 300-320l tuned to 14.6hz? Or whatever looks really good.

Thanks. Just deciding on all options.

Sure.

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c199/wadeere/VBResponseTCSoundsTC-200015.gif

Thanks willd,

Let me get this straight. At 25hz I reach Xmax around 115db? Am I reading this right?

At a full 900W, you touch xmax at about 21Hz. Keep in mind the TC-2000 has a mechanical excursion of 38mm one-way.

That means I'm better off going 3-4cuft sealed and it'll never reach Xmax with about 120db peak. Correct?

Thanks for your patience

No. For whatever reason there is the misconception that if in a model/simulation xmax is reached in any way, there is danger. I don't know who thought this up, but its crazy. All that graph means is that full complete power from the amp, if a pure 21Hz tone was played, the driver has the potential to barely go past linear excursion.

Thats all. But even if it did, nothing would happen, because the driver has another 10mm of mechanical excursion after the 28mm of linear.

If you want to give up a fair amount of low-end extension/output but have a much smaller enclosure, then go with the sealed.

I get it now. Ported looks much better.

Now I've got to figure out how to build this thing. :D

Good. :D

Well do you wanna build a tube or a box?

In my modeling, using a 6" diameter port that is 27" long, with full 900 watts power, the driver won't even reach 27mm above tuning - you'd need over 1000 watts to break 28mm. That said, as Willd mentioned, think of it as a form of protection, not susceptibility.

This LLT design is definitely your best bet - consider the LT or boosting required to get a similar response in a 95 liter sealed variety. I'm showing a 12db boost centered at 14hz with a Q of 2 to match up nicely...only problem is that to match the output of the LLT, I exceed excursion at 30.5hz. To be able to maintain this pretty flat response with the sealed, even if we give it a big advantage of using the xmech of 38mm as opposed to xmax, max safe power handling is 135 watts. That means you're max output levels stay 7db less than the LLT throughout the sub range.

OK, so now I am reading up on the LLT thread in your sig. I see yours is 6' 9", I would imagine a 12" driver would not be so large. Well I have my home work for the weekend. Study, Study, Study.

So if I did the the Sonosub information correctly. Loaded a TC 2000 12, with a 20 inch diameter tube (using 20 since I saw in another thread someone using that size), it has just provided everything I need (diametions) to make one. I am correct in this? Thanks.

I just put some of the Sono numbers in Winisd and came up with the below attachments. It seems there is a large dip between 20-50 hz. How you go about smoothing that out? Thanks for time and help.

I wouldn't recommend the 12" TC-2K. The 15" model isn't much more and is a better choice.

It's all ready on the way, so that's what I will need to go with.

OK, this really sucks. I cannot seem to get the 12 inch to look good with any changes were as the 15 looks nice (unless I am missing something). I wonder if it is to late to change my order.

If they haven't shipped it yet then you should still be able to.

Good. :D

Well do you wanna build a tube or a box?

Hey willd, thinking going box, can't use tube because of room constraints.

What size should it be though?

Willd,

Sorry to ask this of you. Is there anyway you can run the numbers for TC 2000 12 in Unibox for a vented box and show me the input values and graphs? I pulled up Sonosub and used the numbers below from it (into Unibox) and the resulting graph did not look near as bad as the one from Winisd (from a few threads ago). I attached a screen shot of what I had. Thanks again for your time.

Effective Volume (liters) 264
Tuning Freq 15.5
Internal diameter of Sonotube (inches) 1' 10'
Port Internal diameter (inches) 6
Port Length 2' 6 1/4"

Not sure about rows 67, 68, 68 so I left them as they were.

In my modeling, using a 6" diameter port that is 27" long, with full 900 watts power, the driver won't even reach 27mm above tuning - you'd need over 1000 watts to break 28mm. That said, as Willd mentioned, think of it as a form of protection, not susceptibility.

This LLT design is definitely your best bet - consider the LT or boosting required to get a similar response in a 95 liter sealed variety. I'm showing a 12db boost centered at 14hz with a Q of 2 to match up nicely...only problem is that to match the output of the LLT, I exceed excursion at 30.5hz. To be able to maintain this pretty flat response with the sealed, even if we give it a big advantage of using the xmech of 38mm as opposed to xmax, max safe power handling is 135 watts. That means you're max output levels stay 7db less than the LLT throughout the sub range.

Steve, what size LLT box (gross) should it be to reach net, after port, braces, etc?

So if I did the the Sonosub information correctly. Loaded a TC 2000 12, with a 20 inch diameter tube (using 20 since I saw in another thread someone using that size), it has just provided everything I need (diametions) to make one. I am correct in this? Thanks.
In almost all cases, a 12" driver simply won't be suitable for meeting the LLT requirements. This is because a 12" driver typically can't afford shifting a lot of sensitivity down low while still maintaining high output levels overall. I figure if somebody is going to the effort of building a subwoofer, they should at least have ~110db capability throughout the bulk of the usable range. So with 12" drivers, to me, that means a more traditional ported design with tuning ~20hz and a highpass filter being used.

With that TC 2000 12", I think you are better off going sealed. It wants a small box (bad for proper porting and low end sensitivity), has a low Qts, and has lots of excursion on hand, all of which favor a sealed LT'd sub. If you can still switch it to a 15" svc for a few bucks more, I would highly recommend you go that route.

Steve, what size LLT box (gross) should it be to reach net, after port, braces, etc?
I think member ---k--- has an excel box file that would make that pretty easy. Assuming a well braced enclosure, I'd guess bracing and port would eat up about 50 liters, so maybe 370 liters raw from the innermost box dimensions.

Steve,

Thanks for the information. I will see what I can do about switching. If it cannot happen, sealed it will be. Along with an EQ and the Buttkicker Will recommened.

Well if you still wanted good low-end extension without doing sealed you could get one of their 15" passive radiators. That would solve the porting problem.

I was just trying to run this through winisd but cannot find Qms or Sd for the 15 inch passive on TC's page. I would assume I could try different Fs values since the web page shows V-Fs 4-24 HZ

Yeah, they definitely don't list all of the parameters on the site. I know the Sd should be somewhere between 815-850cm^2.

If they haven't shipped your driver yet you could still switch to the 15, which I would still recommend.

Otherwise, yeah..go PR or sealed.

I ordered it on Dec 29th and have not heard from them so hopefully they have not shipped it. I will calling them noon my time when they are walking in the door to see if I can switch. Even if I have to stay with the 12, according to the information I can get to 20 and maybe below. Now I am just really wanting to go Sono. This is the crap that happens when you do NOT do enough research. My own fault though. All in all, though, I will make the 12 rock if I have to.

Yeah, no doubt the 12 will still perform well.

YES!!!!!!!!!! I just got off the phone with TC and was able to change my order to the 15 inch. So I will be copying the Willd design (I know I have his build thread saved on on of my pc's). It my take a little while to get all of the components and build it (working from a wheelchair is not the easiest sometimes) but I am so excited.

Excellent news!

I am putting a list together. So far I have the stuff below. I believe the amp will probably be the last thing to buy. I tried to use your numbers in Sonosub and it shows to cut the Sono at 4' 2 1/2" (see attached screen shot). Is this the height of yours? Thanks.

1" poly batting

6" Precision Port:
http://www.thrilleraudio.com/

3/4" MFD

1/2" OSB

24" Sonotube

compass jig

Router---plunge ???

liquid nails

binding posts
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=091-340

baseplate is at 25.5"

1.25" Poplar dowel 3.5" long

Specs:
336.5 liters
Fb - 14.5Hz

I know you're following mine, but I did a few things that I wouldn't do next time.

Just use all 3/4" MDF. For the topcap assembly use at least two layers for the plug and obviously one of the cap itself.

Same thing for the bottom assembly.

Also, my net volume came out to 336 only because the 24" sonotube I got really had an ID of 24.5". So if you get tube with an ID of 24" and stick with 48" then it'll be closer to 320. Doesn't really matter though.

A plunge router is definitely key.

Sounds great. Thanks for the information.

OK, the driver was sent on Monday. Just order the 24" Sonotube which should be delivered either tomorrow or Monday. My wife picked up the poly batting. Things are starting to move. I am still trying to decide if I want to buy a router or have a friend (who is good at wood working) help me cut the MDF. I have also seen where people say they can lay these on there sides. Is that really OK to do?

I am still trying to decide if I want to buy a router or have a friend (who is good at wood working) help me cut the MDF.

Does your friend have a router? You can get one that'll do the job for fairly cheap, if money is a concern ($75 or less used).

I have also seen where people say they can lay these on there sides. Is that really OK to do?

Absolutely. with the endcaps in, the tube keeps its shape regardless of the orientation. In my new room my TC2K sonosub will be permanently laying on its side. (after all, it can hold me on it just fine, and I am no lightweight).

He says he has all tools I would need. I would really not want to spend the money on tools if I do not have to. I know he is very good in the wood working area since I know he built a kick ass gazebo and shed. I don't think he would have any trouble with a couple of circles, whereas I cannot cut a straight line in a piece of wood.

Sounds good then!

Did you use any type of glue on the plugs inside the tube itself (run glue around the edges of the plug and than put the plug(s) in) or just reach down inside the tube and seal from the inside. I hope that makes sense. Another question. I see everyone just uses glue to put the plugs together. Is there a reason no uses glue and a few screws? Thanks.

Some use glue, some just make an airtight fit.

I used glue (liquid nails).

You could use screws I suppose, but it isn't necessary at all. Glue is easily enough to hold the plugs/endcaps together. I don't think I have seen anyone use screws.

Willd,

One thing I just noticed was TC uses points of an inch on there measurements. How did you calculate those for the cutouts? Thanks.

Ex:
Cutout Diameter 14.10"

Basket Diameter 15.65"

Uh.....

you could just say 14 1/8" (which is .025 larger) and 15 5/8" (which is .025 smaller).

She had arrived!!!! Although with no mounting hardware. I will have to speak with TC and see if they can send some over.

Willd,, Did yours come with any gasket?

She should have come with some good wood screws. Just call Heather and she'll fedex you some for free.

It came with the standard rubber gasket.

Was the gasket all ready attached or just placed in the box with the sub?

It was already on, like you see in the pictures.

OK, cool. And if they only send wood screws I have some all ready I can use.

Well, I just like the ones they send.

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c199/wadeere/e4_15.jpg

I spoke with Heather and see is going to send some over along with a Tshirt. She is a nice lady to speak with. I have decided to enlist my friends help instead of purchasing the tools myself. I just started looking at the cost of those, plus the amp, wood and things and decided it's easier on the wallet (and he will probably do a better job than I).

Will, If you don't mind me asking who did you by the Buttkicker from?

Edit:
I see from your build thread you picked it up off of Amazon. I just get nervous on something like that since there are no authorized dealers for Buttkicker on Amazon for 250. Musiciansfriend wants 330 for one.

I see from your build thread you picked it up off of Amazon. I just get nervous on something like that since there are no authorized dealers for Buttkicker on Amazon for 250. Musiciansfriend wants 330 for one.

Well when I got mine from Amazon things were different. It was available for $252 shipped directly from amazon.

Now they don't seem to offer it directly. The way prices are now I'd probably get a pro amp (a Carvin or Behringer).

Well I ordered one (Buttkicker) for around 280 shipped. Order the port stuff from thriller, posts from PE. Well so far I have 775 dropped into this (and I still do not have the MDF). Man this thing better rock.

Just take your time. When it is all done it will be worth it for sure.

I was feeling the same way you are a few days before I got my IB put together.

Ok, making a small amount of progress on the items needed. I just picked up a
4 x 8 sheet of MDF (with a section I all ready have should be enough), glue and dowels. I also just confirmed with my neighbor that he is willing to help my with the cuts. I believe I should be able to line the tube internally and put some carpet on the outside this week. So slowly but surely I am getting there.

Ok, I have a 12' section of 24" sonotube sitting in the dining room. I am going to cut a 48" section from it. Also have the port from thriller audio and will cut a 2" section off of one of the 12" lengths. On a side note. One of the partners in my wifes company is pretty big into home theater stuff and he gave her a Behringer DSP1100P to give to me. Very nice.

Sounds like you have the ball rolling, good stuff.

Well I am sitting here trying to make up my mind. I had to postpone my neighbor coming over since I am sick, so I do not have a jigsaw. I am wondering if using a hacksaw to cut the tube would be OK or should I wait for a jigsaw?

After cutting the port with a hacksaw, I will most defiantly wait for a jigsaw to do the tube.

Willd,

I have a question for you. I looked through your build thread again (may have missed it) but did not see what your cutout diameters for the top plug and cap were for the port/flare. The reason I am asking is the flare I have, has a lip going around it about a 1/2" in (from where the screw marks are). I am wondering if you had to cut the top cap to be about 8 3/4" so the flare would mount flush. Also, did you use anything between the flare and top cap to make it airtight? I hope that makes sense. Thanks.

I made the cutouts just large enough so the flare would sit just on top of the endcap.

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c199/wadeere/Sonosub/anothershottop.jpg

I used some RTV I had laying around, but you could use anything or even get by without it.

So from that picture it is flush. So I believe the top cap will need to have a wider opening than the two plug pieces. Cool. Thanks again.

In case you may have been thinking "this guy does not have anything at hand". Here it is sitting around waiting till Saturday (no on call and I should be over being sick so it is wood cutting time). I am not sure how you post those pictures so nice.

Well finally got the tube cut and all the caps, plugs yesterday. No the worst part, cleaning the garage. Had to keep the garage doors closed last night so we did not freeze to death and that place is a mess. Sitting in a wheelchair leaves you right at router height so needless to say I was one big piece of sawdust. But my neighbor Jeff was great made great cuts and the fit is looking great. Onward bound.

The buttkicker arrived today. The bottom plug and cap are glued. If I get some more clamps I may glue the top plug-cap tonight. Slowly making progress.

Keep it up! Post some pics if you can.

For some reason I cannot post pictures like you have. The ones I have, I keep having to shink them down for them to be posted. I will try again shortly.

Trying to attach one showing the mess we made on Saturday and one showing the top plug and buttkicker.

Wow, I just tested the buttkicker with the sub and got major ground feed back. I will try plugging the amp into my brickwall and see if that helps. Sure hope so.

If it doesn't, just pick up a 3-2prong cheater plug at your local HD.

I believe I have one around the house some where. I have to say though. I was testing using a cd of test tones and when I started cranking up the amp, that sub was flying.

Well, no go on the brickwall. I will need to find that cheater plug. Did you hear this when you tested yours? What connection type were you using on the amp?

No I didn't.

I am just using a shielded RCA cable from the LFE out on my receiver directly to the RCA in.

This is the cable.

http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10236&cs_id=1023602&p_id=2682&seq=1&format=2&style=

Got my first coat of primer on. I will sand them tomorrow and do one more coat, then the real paint on Sunday.

Cool.

2nd coat of primer is on. I went back over the Sonosub numbers and it appears my net volume is going to be 311 liters, tuned to 14.8 HZ which seems off. I was shooting for 320 liters.

Length of Sonotube 48 1/2"
1/4 groove in both end and top cap for tube to sit in
1.5 inches of plug for both top and bottom plugs
24" inside diameter of tube
6" port (right now cut to 27 3/4, which I believe should go down to 27")

Am I missing anything? I hope I did not screw up.

You didn't screw up.

I'd just keep the port at 27.75"

Sounds good. Thanks again for assisting with all my questions.

Heres a picture of the first coat. The paint is the same color as the walls in my family room. Being a little different than most by not using black. I am also going to be using left over carpet from the family room which I guess you can say is tan.

Just added in the poly fill. What I am wondering though, I do have a section of poly batting. Should I put in the batting so it keeps the fill all most like in a blanket? I was thinking of stapling the batting at the mark where the plugs would end, that way none of the fill falls down onto the sub? I checked the staple length on an scrap piece of tube and they do not go all the way through.

Holy crap that is way too much fill.

The usual amount of "fill" is just a 1-2" thickness of batting or insulation lining the walls.

That' fine. I rather have gone over than under. This way I can go back and trim it down. Back to work.

Here my adjustment. I took over a bag out and added the little blanket. The picture does make it still look like a small hole but a put in a tape measure and it is about 19-20" inside. It may not be the best but it what I will have to live with. I would like to believe this is not going to ruin the project.

That'll be ok.

WHEWWWWWWWWWWWW. I was hoping I just did not screw everything up.

Almost there. I have mounted the sub and port. Also covered the tube. A few more days and she should be done.

Neat!

Very nice! Your getting there!

Will,

Did you wrap the port tube in anything?

No. Just make sure you line the bottomside of the top endcap well.

Sounds good. I will not go as crazy on that area as I did with the tube. Thanks again.

One funny thing I noticed is the sub does not accept banana plugs (unless I am just really missing something).

Are you talking about the terminals on the TC-2000? You want bare wire for those anyway.

Yes, I was referring to the sub itself. I just thought it would accept a plug.

Well like I said, plugs would actually be less ideal than bare wire. The spring action really holds on to bare wire well.

Well she is finished. I put in War of the Worlds and knocked a few shelfs loose and scared the hell out of my dog. I placed my hand over the port and that thing was pushing some air. Next step is to load REW and setup my BFD. Have to say thanks to my neighbor Jeff for helping on the wood work, my wife for helping on the painting and carpet install and my daughter for helping were she could. Also to Willd for always answering all my questions.

She looks wonderful! I love the matching endcaps and carpet. Really works!

Very nice!

http://www.hbo.com/alig/img/bios/img_borat6_s2.jpg

Congrats! Hope this doesn't end the thread though. WE NEED MORE TC2000 BUILDS!! :)

Well here is my first attempt at tweaking the sub with the BFD. I have a dip around 60 but cannot get it any better. I made the below filters for it.

20 + 2
25 + 2
40 - 3
63 + 13
80 - 7

You might find that you'll need to tweak it again after you've broken her in.

So how do you like it so far?

Very nice so far. It is SUCH a difference between the old Cambridge I had. Its really hard to explain though. One thing both my wife and neighbor (who helped build it) have said it they felt it along with hearing it.

On a side note. I finally found the ground hum source. It is coming from the coax cable to my cable box. I had my wife reach up and unplug it no hum, plugged it back in and there it was. I have found a little device on the web that should eliminate this which I will buy and hope it works. I do not want to leave the cheater plugs on the BK and BFD.

Yeah, my cable TV is a source of ground hum as well.