I posted the following in a thread in the receiver forum just to use as an example but never got an answer. I figured I should post it here:

What does a CD/DVD player do? It reads the tiny grooves on the disc which it processes as 1's and 0's and sends this information to the receiver. From what I understand, it can either do this 100% (you hear audio) or it doesn't do it at all (you hear noise). It can't do it half way.... if there is information missing from a digital signal, even a few bits, the signal becomes corrupt and you get noise. So, if a CD/DVD player is sending a digital signal that it read from a disc, and a laptop/PC is sending a digital signal that it read from a hard drive... what the hell is the difference? It's digital, not analog! I've tried time and time again to compare a CD to a lossless audio rip and there is simply no difference between the two whatsoever. If someone can explain this to me, please educate me

What does a cd/dvd player do? you may get some simple answers in howstuffworks

digital data send and receive can be affected by timing and error correction algorithms


http://www.jitter.de/english/engc_navfr.html

if you cannot hear differences either your equipment is faulty/inferior or your hearing has been impaired. have your equip checked/updated or see a doctor

Read this thread and the last post as well. Among the pros it is a debate of if you can even hear jitter and under what conditions. The snake oil salesmen of our day have taken the concept of jitter and scared people into thinking they need more than they have. Ie the clock device sold on the website cpu pointed to. When you have soething as simple as a cd or dvd player in your home its really a non issue, when you link many digi devices together external clocks are needed.

http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/mv/msg/7485/0/64/0/

if there is information missing from a digital signal, even a few bits, the signal becomes corrupt and you get noise.

Well for 1 thing: most DVD players sample at 44.1 khz whereas CDs were recorded to be sampled at 48 khz.

Other than that if you can't hear a difference with your equipment, buy a combo player.

Well for 1 thing: most DVD players sample at 44.1 khz whereas CDs were recorded to be sampled at 48 khz.Or, rather, the other way around.

What does a cd/dvd player do? you may get some simple answers in howstuffworks

digital data send and receive can be affected by timing and error correction algorithms


http://www.jitter.de/english/engc_navfr.html

if you cannot hear differences either your equipment is faulty/inferior or your hearing has been impaired. have your equip checked/updated or see a doctor


CPU8088, I hope you're joking. My system consists of Klipsch Reference flagship speakers all around, a Pioneer Elite VSX-74TXvi receiver, HSU VTF3-MK2 sub, and a BFD. My laptop outputs a digital signal using SPDIF passthrough so it is not doing any processing. My equipment is not faulty in the least, the sound is nothing short of spectacular. I'm also a professional musician and my hearing is impeccable. If you were just kidding around, that's cool. Was just checking.....

I still hear no difference between my laptop outputting a FLAC file or the CD in a dedicated player...... no difference whatsoever.

trust kal he is very knowlegable

dvd player when sampling dvds will use 48 and sampling cds with 44.1

there are also upsampling and oversampling

Guys, I'm beginning to think that you might have misunderstood my question.

The point I'm trying to make is that I'm trying to jusitfy the purchase of a $2000+ dedicated CD and/or DVD player. How much better of a signal can a high end standalone player output as opposed to a $300 player? And, why would playing a DVD on a high end DVD player sound any better than playing a DVD ripped with no compression to my hard drive through my laptop direct to my receiver? My soundcard samples at 48khz by default and upsamples to 96Khz when possible. If anything, it should provide a HIGHER quality sound than my standalone DVD playerbecause of the upsampling to 96Khz. So, again, what is the point of spending thousands of dollars on a separate standalone CD/DVD player when a PC that sends out the signal with no processing can acheive the same result?

Dbossa, if you are using DAC in your reciever then you shouldn't get $2000 CD player , a good quality CD player will do good as a transport. An expensive CD player will likely have a much better DAC than cheap CD player. So if you want to find out if $2000 worth the price, you will have to compare it to your notebook setup (using reciever DAC). You may want to get bit perfect out from your laptop by bypassing windows Kmixer to get optimal sound quality.

This jitter issue is seemed to be way overblown by companies trying to justify high price of their products. If anybody want to get into this further, go to head-fi forum under component section. Many interesting topics regarding jitter and there is even a sound file of a music that is made intentionally with high jitter, which some can't even tell ( i havent heard it myself), based from what i read, briefly. I'm no expert but i'm in the process of learning about this jitter issue and while i agree that its a problem with digital devices, i'm not too sure if the problem is as big as many claimed it to be. There is even a DBL test to compare a very expensive CD player vs either computer audio setup/ low price good cd player (both as a transport), the result is as i predicted.

Also, this website "http://www.jitter.de/english/engc_navfr.html" was made by a company selling an anti-jitter device for 500 euro so whatever they said, take it with a grain of salt.

CPU8088, I hope you're joking. ....

I still hear no difference between my laptop outputting a FLAC file or the CD in a dedicated player...... no difference whatsoever.

yep just kidding you :D

if you are so sure of not hearing differences why then consider changing the source? just keep using what you now owned

CPU8088, I hope you're joking. My system consists of Klipsch Reference flagship speakers all around, a Pioneer Elite VSX-74TXvi receiver, HSU VTF3-MK2 sub, and a BFD. My laptop outputs a digital signal using SPDIF passthrough so it is not doing any processing. My equipment is not faulty in the least, the sound is nothing short of spectacular. I'm also a professional musician and my hearing is impeccable. If you were just kidding around, that's cool. Was just checking.....

I still hear no difference between my laptop outputting a FLAC file or the CD in a dedicated player...... no difference whatsoever.

dbossa,

Consider yourself lucky! If I were you, I would stick with the PC front-end.

Unfortunately, I was exposed to some high-end CD players and really liked the sound of music they produced. Even after doing extensive acoustic treatments to my listening room, I still could not get that sound out of my PC setup.

I recently got a high-end universal player before Christmas and have been VERY happy since. For me, it is worth the extra $$$.

- Steve O.

scorch proved a point

he has sensitive ears

dbossa,

Consider yourself lucky! If I were you, I would stick with the PC front-end.

Unfortunately, I was exposed to some high-end CD players and really liked the sound of music they produced. Even after doing extensive acoustic treatments to my listening room, I still could not get that sound out of my PC setup.

I recently got a high-end universal player before Christmas and have been VERY happy since. For me, it is worth the extra $$$.

- Steve O.

So, what you're saying is that, the DACS in the high end standalone will be better than the DACS found in a typical receiver. I would have to compare the quality of the DACS in my Pioneer Elite with the DACS found in a standalone. For the purchase to be worth it, the DACS in the standalone would have to be far superior to the DACS in my receiver. Is this statement accurate?

So, what you're saying is that, the DACS in the high end standalone will be better than the DACS found in a typical receiver. I would have to compare the quality of the DACS in my Pioneer Elite with the DACS found in a standalone. For the purchase to be worth it, the DACS in the standalone would have to be far superior to the DACS in my receiver. Is this statement accurate?

the power supply and analog output stages of the players will also affect the sound. as far as i'm aware, the laser technology used to read DVDs is different from the laser technology used to read CDs, so some people believe that a dedicated CDP will have a better time reading and converting the data off a CD than a DVD player.

in addition, the reason you don't hear a difference between CD and lossless is that lossless compression loses no audible information. you shouldn't hear a difference because as far as the information is concerned, there is no difference. in fact, if you use a high-quality outboard DAC for your PC, it may actually sound better than the CD played through a DVD player.

while i personally use a budget universal player as my source currently, i have auditioned several CDPs from $500 to $1500, and through the analog outputs, there are easily recognizable differences.

Can you recommend a good high quality external DAC?

Can you recommend a good high quality external DAC?

what's your price range?

the Benchmark DAC1 for a hair under $1k is very highly regarded. Musical Fidelity's X-DAC is being discontinued, i think you can find these on closeout for around $500. or check out www.pacificvalve.us for some inexpensive, modded chinese DACs that are very well reviewed, like the Lite DAC AH non-oversampling DAC, the Lite 62 tube DAC, or the DIYEDEN Great March.

or you could pick up a good used DAC over at audiogon.

So, what you're saying is that, the DACS in the high end standalone will be better than the DACS found in a typical receiver. I would have to compare the quality of the DACS in my Pioneer Elite with the DACS found in a standalone. For the purchase to be worth it, the DACS in the standalone would have to be far superior to the DACS in my receiver. Is this statement accurate?

dbossa,

Not necessarily - the DACs alone in a high end player might not be as good as a receiver. It's not the DAC alone with gives a player it's signature sound.

What kind of sound are you after? That's how you should put together your system. I was after a sweet and music "Audio Aero"-ish sound, and I found that with my McCormack UDP-1 player. (I didn't have deep enough pockets for an AA) You may be looking for a different sound altogether...

I wish you lived near Phoenix and I could lend you some of my equipment so you could experiment with different combinations of gear. You can learn a lot by mixing and matching...

- Steve O.

From what I just read of that McCormack player, I really wish I lived closer to you! :(

dbossa,

Not necessarily - the DACs alone in a high end player might not be as good as a receiver. It's not the DAC alone with gives a player it's signature sound.

What kind of sound are you after? That's how you should put together your system. I was after a sweet and music "Audio Aero"-ish sound, and I found that with my McCormack UDP-1 player. (I didn't have deep enough pockets for an AA) You may be looking for a different sound altogether...

I wish you lived near Phoenix and I could lend you some of my equipment so you could experiment with different combinations of gear. You can learn a lot by mixing and matching...

- Steve O.

I've got a real world example: My Receiver is the Onkyo SR703. I've just ordered the Oppo DV-981HD (for movies). I'm also considering the Onkyo DX-7555 as a stand alone CD player (ie carries Wolfson WM8740 DACs). I've been debating (back and forth) whether to spend more for a universal player (ie Denon 3930CI) or go with Oppo for movies and get a stand-alone player. I've chosen the latter.

Now, are the DAC's in the DX-7555 sufficiently superior over my SR703 to hear a difference by running the DX-7555 via analog versus via through a digital connection to the SR703?

Also, are the DAC's in the DX7555 sufficiently superior to the ones in the Oppo 981HD (assuming running both via analog connection) to justify the purchase of this stand alone CD player ($599)? Or, would I need to spend multiples of this amount to hear a real difference?

In the store, I auditioned my speakers (B&W 705s) with an all Rotel system, including a $700 Rotel standalone CD player. At home, I am driving them with an Onkyo DX-C390 and a Carver integrated amp. Other than room acoustics, I can hear no difference.

In the store, I auditioned my speakers (B&W 705s) with an all Rotel system, including a $700 Rotel standalone CD player. At home, I am driving them with an Onkyo DX-C390 and a Carver integrated amp. Other than room acoustics, I can hear no difference.

not a reliable comparison.

not a reliable comparison.
Not reliable in what way? I would certainly be able to tell if I were hearing less detail, clarity, etc. :confused:

Not reliable in what way? I would certainly be able to tell if I were hearing less detail, clarity, etc. :confused:How can you reliably distinguish room acoustics from any other simultaneous variable?

A difference in sound quality large enough to justify a $500 difference in the price of the CD player should be obvious enough to hear even with the change in room acoustics.

A difference in sound quality large enough to justify a $500 difference in the price of the CD player should be obvious enough to hear even with the change in room acoustics.

PULLIAMM,

You might think so, but that's the very reason why I opt for in-home auditions and shootouts.

Showrooms can really have poor setups sometimes, making it impossible to do a critical A/B comparison.

- Steve O.

A difference in sound quality large enough to justify a $500 difference in the price of the CD player should be obvious enough to hear even with the change in room acoustics.Are you kidding? The differences in acoustics, due to the room and the positioning of the speakers and listener in the room, are larger than the difference between an inexpensive but decent player and the best ones. Hardware heads will disagree but that's my experience.

So, again, how can you possibly judge these independantly unless you control for one or the other?

Dbossa

You might want to check out the new Yamaha dvd-s2700 it's supposed to have good quality DAC's and dual laser pickups one for cd's and one for dvd's plus it decodes sacd

Dbossa

You might want to check out the new Yamaha dvd-s2700 it's supposed to have good quality DAC's and dual laser pickups one for cd's and one for dvd's plus it decodes sacd

if i'm not mistaken, don't all DVD players require a dual laser in order to read CDs?

if i'm not mistaken, don't all DVD players require a dual laser in order to read CDs?

No they don't,in fact i't a rare feature and it's mostly found on high endplayers,it's really like having two separate players in one.

OK, a question for all of you:

You all seem to be quite knowledgeable about DAC quality. Most of you will probably know of the Burr Brown DACs found in my VSX-74TXvi receiver. I have a music workstation hooked up to a digital piano about 50 feet away with another laptop. The laptop is hooked up to an external pro audio sound card, the E-MU 1616, with specs shown here:

http://www.emu.com/products/product.asp?category=505&subcategory=491&product=13554&nav=technicalSpecifications


The unit has built-in DACs with analog outs. Can any of you tell me if this unit's DACs are superior to those found in my Pioneer? If so, I'd use that machine for music playback instead of the other that simply does SPDIF passthrough.

Almost 50 views since my last post above..... nobody able to shed light on this?

Notable differences:

Pio:
THD: 0.09%
DAC: Burr Brown DSD1791DBR - 192 khz / 24-bit
Signal to noise ratio: 110db


E-MU:
THD: 0.0012%
DAC: CS4392 - 192 khz / 24-bit
Signal to noise ratio: 112db


A bit of reading on the net showed that the Pioneer DV-47A also uses the CS4392 DACs. So, an easier question would be, which has better DACs: the Pioneer Elite VSX-74TXvi receiver or the Pioneer DV-47A DVD player?

Another 150 views since my last post two days ago. I guess I'll put this one in my unsolved mysteries folder.....

I've got a real world example: My Receiver is the Onkyo SR703. I've just ordered the Oppo DV-981HD (for movies). I'm also considering the Onkyo DX-7555 as a stand alone CD player (ie carries Wolfson WM8740 DACs). I've been debating (back and forth) whether to spend more for a universal player (ie Denon 3930CI) or go with Oppo for movies and get a stand-alone player. I've chosen the latter.

Now, are the DAC's in the DX-7555 sufficiently superior over my SR703 to hear a difference by running the DX-7555 via analog versus via through a digital connection to the SR703?

Also, are the DAC's in the DX7555 sufficiently superior to the ones in the Oppo 981HD (assuming running both via analog connection) to justify the purchase of this stand alone CD player ($599)? Or, would I need to spend multiples of this amount to hear a real difference?

I just bought an Onkyo DX-7555. AMAZING CD player!!!!

I just bought an Onkyo DX-7555. AMAZING CD player!!!!

Agree! I just received my Onkyo DX-7555 yesterday. I did some quick comparisons with it versus my Oppo DV-981 (universal DVD player) with both outputting via analog. There was no comparison. The DX-7555 is crystal clear. The sound is very pure and clean. By comparison, I could hardly stand to listen to the Oppo (ie sounded harsh and the clarity was not good). There is really not a comparison (IMO) between the two (ie and I guess there shouldn't be give the comparison is between a $600 stand-alone player vs a $225 universal player). BTW...the build quality of the Onkyo is amazing (ie the thing weighs about 40 pounds and the operations are smooth as silk).

On question though: My receiver is the Onkyo SR703. When try to listen to the CD player in either "Pure Audio" or "Direct" mode (ie to bypass the video circuitry in the SR703), there is no bass? These modes seem useless if I'm only hearing sound from my front speakers but no bass from the sub. Does anyone know if this is the way these modes are designed to work.....or does it have something to do with my sub connection?

Setup info: The sub is an Rocket ULW-10 (great bass unit...IMO) connected via single interconnect cable to my receiver's Sub Woofer Pre-out directly to the Sub (ie no speaker connections on the sub).

I bought an Onkyo DX-7555 player last week to replace a malfunctioning Marantz SA8260. I like the Onkyo so far. Very sturdy unit. It actually weighs about 18 pounds. It's a very clear sounding player. The big difference between the Onkyo and Marantz is the bass. The Marantz was always a little weak down low but this Onkyo has no problem. Highly recommended for around $600.

Another 150 views since my last post two days ago. I guess I'll put this one in my unsolved mysteries folder.....

Not trying to be a "smartass" here but you appear to be getting overly wrapped up in the equipment / spec area to a point where you loose sight of the .........music !!

benifits of stand alone player - the obvious, it's all packaged as one and if constructed correctly will sound superb ! secondly it's much more intuative for those of us that are, well.....shall we say, computer challenged.

Outside of your DAC discussion, don't forget the importance of well designed power supplies !!

Time to listen to some music !!

I just purchased a Bada HD-22 I will post if there is a difference from it and my $80 panasonic dvd player...The bada uses a vacuum tube, if there is no difference I will sell it , if there is a difference which I expect I will keep it for life!

I just purchased a Bada HD-22 I will post if there is a difference from it and my $80 panasonic dvd player...The bada uses a vacuum tube, if there is no difference I will sell it , if there is a difference which I expect I will keep it for life!

what's the rest of your system?

I just purchased a Bada HD-22 I will post if there is a difference from it and my $80 panasonic dvd player...The bada uses a vacuum tube, if there is no difference I will sell it , if there is a difference which I expect I will keep it for life!

Vampyro,
I am very interested to hear your comments regarding the Bada.

Did you purchase it from here? http://www.pacificvalve.us/

Are you running tubes in your front-end?

Review; http://www.pacificvalve.us/files/Affordable_Audio_Bada_HD_22_Review.pdf

Hey guys,

I am using the outlaw 950 pre amp, Rotel amp, Focal 826v speakers :)
The bada is the only tube in the chain...
I think that is the only place it can be ordered.
The guy who did that review was the one who actually convinced me to go for the Bada.

Hey Vamp thanks for the response.

I may order the Bada, and the Onix CD-5 'AV123', and compare to my old Rotel.
Both companies offer 30 day trial period.

Where do you tend bar at? :)

I want to listen to the Focal's

Vamp? How do you like the Bada..??

:)