I'm new to the front projection arena... I've read up in this screen forum on the various factors in getting a screen.. I'm still unclear on some facts... I'm curious what folks recommend for a front projection (manual or automatic) screen.

I have a setting where I can make the room nearly fully dark when needed, but for spur of the moment usage, there may be some ambient light. My viewing distance is about 12 feet, I am projecting an HDTV 16:9 image, though when viewing 4:3 stations.. the screen becomes 4:3 (so an HDTV screen size isnt really usuable with my current projector, the PG-M20x)...

I've borrowed a friends DA-Lite Model: 40836 (60"-61" wide, white matte, rated at 50 degees viewing angle, gain 1.0 (i think these are the stats)).. plain white screen (manual) projection screen from time to time, this has fabulous viewing angles.. even sitting on a loveseat to the right of the sweet spot (say 4 feet to the right and slightly closer, the image still looks great...

My questions (any answers would be great).

1. I'm not sure if this type of screen is the ideal type of screen for 720p, hdtv viewing (materials, etc). The screen, new is only $47 bucs.. is this too cheap, most seem to say go for more expensive models?

2. It gets a little washed out with ambient light, would I be better off with a "grey" material, or slightly higher gain white (i still need to have that sweet spot extend to the loveseat area as well though). If I went with grey or higher gain, when I do have the room completely dark, will this result in a lesser quality image being projected than if I stuck with the typical white, gain 1.0 etc...

3. Is there an electric model out there that wont break the bank?

Either way I dont have a lot of cash for a manual/automatic model..


Thanks

I should add that the projector outputs 1900 lumens and i'm utilizing a DLP setting of 1080i...

Thanks again...

I can be a little more specific on my setup and screens I was considering... My setup will ultimately be mounted from the ceiling (the projector).. I am initially shooting to spend no more than $200 on a screen.. preferibly under $100 if there exists one with enough quality.

I have come across a few Dalite models.. one is Video Spectra 1.5 gain, another at 2.5 gain (glass bead).. or the basic matte model, or a combination model that is either of Video spectra or glass bead with high contrast white matte.. I guess I should also try for a tensioned version (one that has at least a tensioning arm?).. though I've used the non tensioning variety before. I also wasnt sure if CSR was important.

At any rate.. given the chance that the screen will have ambient light in the room from time to time, though could be completely dark.. I wasnt sure which model to go with, if any of these...

Markm75
First off welcome to AVS. I spend most of my time here over in the DIY sub forum but I see you have had no bites on your questions so I’ll make a stab at them.

I also own a Sharp projector the XR10X and it’s also a XGA machine of similar lumens. I don’t remember reading what size screen you are shooting for but I will tell you I have a 72x96 4:3 screen 120 diagonal and I have no need for a gain higher than 1.0. it sounds like you may even be smaller in screen size and with that you should be an excellent for a gray screen IMO.

Details of my thoughts on gray screens and how they work with higher lumen projectors are listed in my signature below.

As for HD and 16:9 with a XGA projector you will only be using 1024x576 of your 1024x768 available pixels. I personally think the screen size should match the native of the projector and I enjoy a lot of SD still and also old movies from DVD shot in 4:3. it becomes a personal issue in many cases and how important masking is to you.

I say you will see a much improved PQ with a slight neutral gray screen both with and without the slight ambient light you talked about.

Post back if you have more questions and we’ll see if we can help.

Thanks for the tips.. so I guess I was correct in assuming I should go with a High Contrast screen (slightly grey with Dalite, as you mentioned).

The prices on these pull downs averages $85-100 before shipping... not too bad.

The image size I would be projecting is about 60" in diaganol... I was planning on going with the 4:3 size screen (60x60) and shooting the 16:9 image onto it, although when watching SD stations it becomes 4:3 (i cant recall if there is a way to force 16:9 or not, as in reality this projector currently is a unit I borrow from work periodically)...

On that note I'd actually like to purchase one used or a different model (if another model has better features). My goal, which may sound crazy, was to not spend more than $400 on a used XGA projector, or something that can give me 720p resolutions (1080i), the same as a standard DLP tv would(where as a new DLP TV currently may be $1500) (maybe not quite the same quality, but the image specs would be the same).

I wasn't aware of the 1024x576 limitation with XGA... Is it true this goes away or is a non factor with a projector that uses an Anamorphic lens (or a standard DLP/LCD/plasma tv)? If so, would I be gaining that much quality by going for a projector with an anamorphic lens?

Thanks.

In a XGA DLP chip the micro mirrors / pixels are arranged in a 1024x768 pattern typical business machine or computer screen manner. In true 16:9 home theater projectors they are now at 1280x720. So the 1024x576 I mentioned is fitting the biggest 16:9 into the 4:3 frame. So you end up with 192 rows of unused pixels. Some projectors let you use them to get image shift up and down. Regular DVD’s have 480 vertical lines so the projector scales up to 576. So you are not as good as 720 or HD but better than the older 480 projectors with the XGA. And at 60 inches you will get a very good image at 1024x576.

Based on your price point for a used projector and if you like the versatility of a XGA projector I would look for a used Sharp XR10X, new they are selling for under $800 so I would guess you could find one in your price range. The only draw back to used is bulb life is a unknown and if the bulb needs replaced you will be almost to the price of a new one. That’s true of just about any used projector though.

The Dalite HC might be a good pick for the projector you use now. I have tested that screen side by side against my DIY screen and they perform about the same.

Cool.. that all makes sense.. so if I wanted to be picky and get a projector that supported the full vertical pixel size, I'd need the type that has a Anamorphic lens or supports 1280x720 at native resolution (16:9?) or both?

If so.. know of any good models that do the full height... I guess for now the one you recommended makes sense economically, though I am picky in the sense I like to be able to see the full abilities of a source; I guess it will still be alot better than my standard TV at what I think its a max of 240 lines of resolution (though it is a Sony Wega with components, albeit 27" standard).

I would mainly be watching HD tv shows, perhaps using HD-DVD (xbox 360) soon and playing games on my 360.

Thanks for the tips..

Sorry thought of a few other things:

If a projector states that it is "Anamorphic DVD capable" is this the same as having an anamoprhic lens (will it give the full 720p)?

With the XR10X, if you view SD content.. does the image suddenly go fully vertical (4:3) or is there a setting to make it stay 16:9 (stretched?).. Also.. is there a difference in XR10X and XR10XL?

Thanks

I don’t think you will find any true HD 1280x720 used projectors out there in your price range but I don’t know that as a fact. When you say anamorphic lens set up. One way to do that is with a XGA projector true, but it wont be true HD ether but would be a step more in the right direction. What that would do is take a HD 16:9 image and squeeze it down into a 1024x768 XGA frame now you will be using all the pixels. Then the lens stretches it back out to 16:9 again. That would be the best you could do to use all the pixels and the resulting pixels on the screen would no longer be square but would be in a 16:9 rectangle shape. The trouble with such a set up the lens will cost as much as the projector and unless you decide to go much larger than you are thinking I don’t think you will see much difference. I have never set up an anamorphic setup but I would think it might be a little tricky plus costly.

1280x720 = 921600 pixels true HD 16:9
1024x768 = 786432 pixels anamorphic made 16:9 from XGA
1024x576 = 589824 pixels 16:9 cut from XGA

Those numbers will kind of show you what to compare. Now figure out what size screen you will have and then what the pixel size will be. Next figure in your seating distance and how good your eyes are at resolving those size pixels at that distance. Beyond what you can see I don’t know what good extra resolution really buys you.
As a example my screen is 4:3 and 120 inch and I sit back 14 feet and see no screen door effect. At 10 feet I can see it but also at that distance the screen becomes to big for my field of vision and I wouldn’t care to sit that close.

Also keep in mind there are many more factors that enter in other than lumens and resolution. CR being one of the biggest.

Big difference between an anamorphic lens set up and being able to do a stretch mode sometimes called anamorphic movie mode.

The XR10X and the L are the same there is also a XR11X that is the same. They used several names based on the extra goodies cables, carry case etc that came with them. If you are looking at them just make sure you get the sharp that is XGA there were several models also made that were only 480 and they have a S in the name I believe.

There is a long running thread on the XR10X also you can read in the projector forum.

The XR10X has 3 modes full, stretch and (border or window). In border it places the 4:3 image centered in the stretch window. Now you have black bars on all 4 sides. I often use this mode for viewing poor quality SD images mostly old home movies transferred from VHS or sometimes off air SD. A good quality SD signal looks good not great full screen.

Click on thumb nail below to see pictures of the set up and this picture is of a SD image 72x96 inches.

http://thumb2.webshots.net/t/53/153/7/42/96/2174742960068493142xHgSYv_th.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2174742960068493142xHgSYv)

keep in mind this is a DIY screen made from wall paints.

Thanks for the info.. you definitely have a cool setup.

I think based on what I now know.. the cheapest (new) WXGA projector I can buy is either the Optoma EP1690 (2500 lumens) or Mitsubishi HD1000U (1500 lumens) $1169/1047$ Circuit City/Online respectively.

I may be making it harder by desiring at least 1500 lumens (the Sharp from work is 1900 and I know its bright enough even with some moderate light, as well as the Sharp you have).

Or I could just stick with regular XGA projectors and save a few bucks.

Again, either way either choice XGA or WXGA has to be many times better than an SD image on a 27" tube tv, however, I'm guessing the WXGA is a comparible type to the lower end 60" DLP rear projection TVs (dont these tv's have 6 color segments vs the average of 4 with the front projections, not sure how important this is). So I would think the WXGA's are close in value to standard DLP Rears, though they are almost the same price, so due to bulb prices, if I bought a WXGA, I'd probably be better off waiting and buying a standard DLP TV or just settle for XGA (used) for now.

So my guess is that unless I could find a used WXGA for half the price (used), this would be the only way to truly get the quality of a rear projection (decent) tv set, whereas XGA would be 90% there...

There are so many differences between rear and front projection its not even comparing apples to oranges it’s like apples to watermelons. The biggest is the size screen you can achieve and the theater feel to the image you will see.

I can honestly say I wouldn’t trade my setup for a rear projector ever. Sure there are other rooms in my house I would love a 60” RPTV. But that’s just it they are TV’s and a much different viewing experience IMO.

Don’t get to hung up on lumens, first because the rated lumens the company claims in many cases isn’t true to real life. Many times business projectors have a clear segment in the color wheel and in movie mode it doesn’t function. Likewise CR specs are not always as they appear. Plus as a bulb ages it will loose up to half its lumens.

In your case wanting only a 60 inch screen almost all projectors on the market even the low lumen unites will work for you. If you do end up with anything close to 2000 lumens you will have to add a ND filter or do what I prefer and kill some of the light at the screen with a neutral gray screen.

If you want to stretch your budget a little and still have a new projector, and bulb and new warranty you could look into something like the XR10X factory refurbished unites. I haven’t priced them lately but they were knocking off like 25% if I remember.

If you can get close to the $1000 mark then there will be several good projectors new with all the bells and whistles. Go over to the under 3000 forum and start reading it will take you a month to catch up on it but there is much good info on the latest stuff.

Thanks for the kind words on my work in progress. Half home theater half testing lab. Tucked away in a 150 year old field stone basement with a 6’4” ceiling. That’s pretty low for a 6’ high screen….. But the Hobbits like it….. :D

I'm curious as to what your opinion might be on cabling...

IE: HDMI vs component?

And..Is it true that HD-DVD players wont upscale standard dvd's unless you are outputting an HDMI output (cant use component, like with Xbox 360, only the VGA cable will upscale standard dvds)?

Cheers

Sorry for yet another posting (question).. this should be my last question..

BTW.. your tip on checking out that other forum proved useful.. in my dreamlist of WXGA units.. I had one listed that everyone seems to love.. the Mitsubishi HD1000U... Its only $914 shipped.. about $200 more than the Sharp, so I think I'll wait a little while or maybe run across a used one at some point.. it should be a good deal I would think...

My question: I've never mounted a projector before.. do they generally get mounted "upside down"... I wasnt sure how this works, if all projectors have a setting to flip the image once you install it in such a way. I say upside down, as I dont know how else you could reach the buttons. With my setup I have 7plus foot ceiling, again shooting that 60-65" diag. image.. right now we sit 12.5 feet from the screen, with the projector sitting about 2 feet in front of us on a cofee table.. I was assuming if I moved straight up to the ceiling from that point I could mount it there (how does one get a good idea of where to mount it before hand, or would just using the zoom feature be ok, to shrink the image if needed).

Also.. do you frequently clean the outside of the lens or simply leave the lens cap on? My goal is to use the unit for at least 7 hours a week once I get one (HD tv and Xbox usage).

I think I'm pretty close to being at least generally "projector aware" by now thanks to the help :)

Here is a pretty good read on the cable question.

http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/34579/122868.html

I just use component cables about 30 feet long. What I did was a bit unorthodox but I made my own using coax cables with F connector screw on ends and then used F to RCA adapters. I have no idea if this is kosher or not but the signal comes thru strong and the image is perfect.

I’m not the guy to ask about all the scaling issues but the other forums are filled with talk on the subjects.

By all accounts the HD1000U is a great projector at that price point. And one I’ll be considering come upgrade time I’m sure. I didn’t mention them because they were more than twice your price point.

All newer projectors can be mounted upside down and there is a menu setting to flip the image along with settings to flip it side to side if you want to use it as a RPTV setup. They all have remotes so you wont need to reach up at all. Most don’t have the image coming out of the center of the lens and that’s by design so you can ceiling or table mount them. They all have mounting holes on the base and an adapter sometimes has to be made to match up to a mount. There are also lots of DIY mounts you can make.

http://projectorcentral.com/

Is a great link and they have throw length calculators etc plus a lot of reviews.

Glad to have been of some help.

Bud & markm75 Thank you for all excelllent posts. I enjoyed reading the questions and answers. I have a sharp M20x DLP projector which has served me well for 4 years. My frist setup involved a screen made from while plastic I cut and mitered molding around it. When I moved, the screen ripped! I found the plastic some company posted on this forum. They make the plastic primarily for vapor barrier in construction. Nevertheless, I don't want to go that route again as I can now aford a nice screen in my new home theater room. Problem is that I have no idea where to start.

I have always struggled with projector mounts. Not getting them mounted but positioning afterward. I bought a universal mount from an online retailer and it wasn't cheap (about 150 bucks). I needed a long down rod due to my high ceiling. No matter what I do, the projector still moves slightly from right to left. This is very annoying. I am willing to dump it if needed. My dream mount would have "dial" changes like a table saw that moves the blade up and down (sorry, it's the best way for me to describe it). I think the problem might be with the pole extention not being tight enough.

I guess, what I was looking for was for some advice to see if this was commmon problem when trying to center a screen and also for where to look for the best fixed screen. I have a 4:3 screen painted on my wall that is 7' x 5'-3.3" in size. I would have no problem going down in size somewhat but not much. Feedback welcome.