i am interested in getting a dac for my soon to arrive olive music server. i want one that is above all, musical. i also would prefer a tube dac so i can alter the sound a bit from tube rolling. what would you all recomment? i am open to all sugestions, so go crazy.

i have reading about the following:

dodson 263/ 217mk2d
sonic frontiers sft 2 mk3
audio note 2.1x balanced
benchmark

i would like to stay under $2500 on the used market, and perfer if it had balanced outputs. thanks.

I am a fan (and a dealer) of the Dodson, so that's where my preference is for the ones you list. And among those, I am of the opinion that the Benchmark doesn't belong in that group in terms of overall performance, particularly if you are considering tube-based DACs...

hey thanks. can you elaborate on the "sound" of this dac. also, any experience with the benchmark personally?

I know it's a bit cliche, but the Dodson "sound" is one that strives for an analog sound; a smooth "liquid" sound with good speed and extension. It does tend to emphasize musicality over micro-detail. My only qualm with the 263 is that it is a little lacking in terms of presenting spacial cues...it doesn't provide the same front-to-back depth that some other DACs in its price range does. I'd almost compare it to sounding like a Naim cd player. And fwiw, I've not spent much time with the 217mkII (only at CES in the Hovland room a couple of times), but Ralph Dodson tells me he thinks the 263 is better than the 217mkI.

I had the Benchmark DAC1 in my system for about 3 weeks to evaluate whether I wanted to become a dealer for it. In my system, I liked its speed/PRaT, but found it to sound a little too edgy for my personal taste...and eventually went with the Bel Canto DAC2 in that price range (unfortunately, Bel Canto discontinued te DAC2 three months after I became a dealer for them, so I still don't have a DAC in that price range...!). For what its worth, I've been told that Benchmark has revised the DAC1 a little bit since I demoed it. And perhaps in the right system, its strengths may be more suitable and its weaknesses less prominant.

Hope this helps...

yeah, it seems the benchmark is either a hit or miss. i reviewed it on aa and found that some members loved it, while others found it too aggressive. i guess it is very picky with system synergy to sound its best. the price is quite good considering it has balanced outs, etc. so that is what lead me to it, plus a lot of talk about it. the dodson seems like a nice piece as well, given its price i would like to audition it only there is on one in my area that is a dealer. if the 217mk2 is better than the 263, i may try it out, unless of course i find a 218 for a very very good price.

on a side note, can any of these dacs be used to control a dvd player? i currently only use 2 channels for my home theatre and i usually have the dvd player convert the 5.1 into the 2 fronts channels. if i use a dac, is it still doable?

on a side note, can any of these dacs be used to control a dvd player? i currently only use 2 channels for my home theatre and i usually have the dvd player convert the 5.1 into the 2 fronts channels. if i use a dac, is it still doable?

As long as you can set the DVD to output PCM (instead of Dolby Digital or DTS), it is doable. Most DVD players have this ability (I do this in my 2-channel AV system with a Sony S7700 DVD player and a Bel Canto DAC3)...

cool thanks. perhaps i can have a more nejoyable "theater" experience if i add the dac to my dvd player. will definately try it out. i am going to try a benchmark dac first (home demo) and then gradually "step up" to the other dacs before i commit on which one to buy. i think this will give me a good idea of what each one has to offer, from "cheapest" to "most expensive".


does anyone have any experience with sonic frontiers or audio note dacs? i am very interested in these as well.

You should conider the Lavry DA10 DAC on your list. There's been lots of favorable reviews in comparison to the Benchmark.

http://www.lavryengineering.com

Can't comment with regard to the Dodson - haven't heard it. But compared to the other 3 you listed, the MHDT Labs Paradesia is IMO far preferable and far more musical. It's not the n'th degree in detail but is very good top to bottom tonally and musically.

I personally have one and know several other people who have sold their high $$$ DACs to pick up this little gem.

Bryan

...eventually went with the Bel Canto DAC2 in that price range...


hey phil, how would you compare the dac3 to the dodson? would you say it is more musical? any info/comparisons would be great, this dac has intrigued me and the price is pretty good (and its size!!!). thanks.

hey phil, how would you compare the dac3 to the dodson? would you say it is more musical? any info/comparisons would be great, this dac has intrigued me and the price is pretty good (and its size!!!). thanks.

While I think both are more musical than they are analytical, I think the Dodson 263 is more musical than the Bel Canto DAC3. The DAC3, on the other hand, offers significantly more in terms of producing "holography", image seperation, and soundstage depth...a "cleaner" sound, but once again, not analytical.

a local dealer has also suggested for me to look into the accustic arts dac 1mk4. anyone have experience with this guy, or any of products from this german company?

Hey some of the best sounding audio at the Venetian was with the Esoteric po3- Po2 feeding an AR amp and Watt Puppies.

i believe you, the esoteric separated are amazing, but a little over my head in price.

the more people i talk to who have heard the accustic arts dac say it is among the top dacs available. i found a local dealer who is willing to let me "audition" it along with the matching preamp. i may sell my aesthetix if this unit gives me equal or better performance but without the "tube rolling" headaches. i must have about $1.5k right now just in tubes alone for that unit. will keep everyone updated. my music server is getting broken in as we speak, so a little while longer and i can finally try out all these dacs.

the aa pre and dac are in my house as we speak. i have hooked up the pre and so far it is sounding waaaaay nice. i may end up keeping it and selling the aesthetix. as always, (since it is ss) tubes will always have the last word in "realism" but this unit is so natural that i am listening to the music and not the "details". i played already a few of my test cd's and they all sounded superb. dead on imaging and sounstage, excellent musicality and very very non-fatiguing. i gues the word im looking for is completely natural. nothing stands out, it sounds quite close to vinyl if i may say.

and i haven't even hooked up the dac yet..... time to log off and go listen!!!!

As long as you can set the DVD to output PCM (instead of Dolby Digital or DTS), it is doable. Most DVD players have this ability (I do this in my 2-channel AV system with a Sony S7700 DVD player and a Bel Canto DAC3)...



another thing i just thought of. since i don't have a prepro, what can i do for bass management if i output the dvd signal to the dac? i usually bump up the bass a few notches for my ht setup to get more rumble, but it seems this is imposiible if i use an external dac. any ideas?

just an update to this thread, i auditioned the audio note 2.1 sig and found it to be, well, not for me. it really didn't do anything for me. i guess one can say it was "neutral" but it really did not sound at all different from my cheapie cdp. i am looking for above all, musicality in a dac. so, the audio note is out. my next dacs to consider are:

mhdt paradisea
lavry dac10
bel canto dac3
dodson
sonic frontiers
accustic arts dac 4

still have a long way to go since i just sold my amp and waiting for a new one to "arrive". the mhdt paradisea got a lot of raves from the audiocircle forum. everyone favors its musicality, so i may try it out and see how it does. for $500 bucks, how much can i possibly lose by reselling if its not for me?

Just got it, but I'm really liking the EMM DAC2SE. It's resolved and musically rich.

Can't comment with regard to the Dodson - haven't heard it. But compared to the other 3 you listed, the MHDT Labs Paradesia is IMO far preferable and far more musical. It's not the n'th degree in detail but is very good top to bottom tonally and musically.

I personally have one and know several other people who have sold their high $$$ DACs to pick up this little gem.

Bryan


I agree. Very, very nice DAC for $500. It was "this close" (thumb and forefinger 1" apart) to my current CDP in sound at 3x the list.

Anthony, what were your thought on the Accustic Arts DAC4 ?

Another cheap DAC that has received a bit of chatter is the latest Monarchy DAC24.
This still uses the "old" Burr-Brown PCM63P-K DAC with a tubed output stage, and also has a built-in a tubed pre-amp stage with volume control.
You can use the DAC24 solely as a DAC with tubed output stage, or as a combo of DAC with tubed output mated to a tubed pre-amp and volume control.

Even though the PCM63P-K DAC is "old", it is still one of the best measuring DACs even by todays standards, IIRC.

http://www.monarchyaudio.com/

- Andy

andy i actually have not yet heard the dac4 in my system. i heard it today briefly in a dealers system using martin logan summits and running on mcintosh 275 tube amp. my initial impressions is that it is very smooth and definately analog like. the mcintosh is soo different than my pass, that it was really hard to say the extent of its benefits. i compared it briefly to the wadia 302 cdp and it smoked it, imo. i will try to get my hands on it in the next little while, as soon as i have my amp broken in. the monarchy looks pretty good, i always liked bb for their dacs... warm sound and never aggressive. i will research this little guy a bit and try to have him in my system as well.

just to recap, in the next month or so, i will audition the following dacs in my system:

accustic arts dac4
bel canto dac3
blue circle 501
lavry 10
and hopefully get a paradisea to try as well

will keep you all posted.

PS Audio Digital Link III DAC should be on that list also. I had demoed it in my system and I thought it was astonishing throughout whatever I find important in music reproduction. I ordered one.... and since returning the demo unit, I havent listened to my system critically anymore since I'm waiting on my PS Audio DAC and know how much better it can sound.

please post additional comments when you get it settled into your system. a brief review would be great for all of us.

please post additional comments when you get it settled into your system. a brief review would be great for all of us.

I had it in my system for over a week.... and I'm very familiary with my system, so the difference I heard was very easy to pick out, without even trying. Even if I tried, I couldn't NOT hear the difference. I'll write a review when I have the time.

But, the DAC is a great improvement for me coming from a stock SB3 analog outs.

System:
SB3 -> PS Audio Digital III DAC -> Cary Audio SLP-98L preamp -> Plinius SA102 amp -> Martin Logan Summits

wait a second, are you joey from the ml owners site? if so, i remember you had other ml's so i assume you just got the summits? if so, congrats. i used to be on the site too, i had ascent i's that served me well for a few years. nice to know you linger around here too!!! :)

Anthony!

I knew you seemed familiar!

Yeah... I got the Summits exactly a year ago.... you must've not checked back on MLO for a while.... hehehe!

I linger around here sometimes.... you had Ascents, so what do you have now?

Are you still on the fence with some DAC units? My order is still not yet filled... stupid backorder at PS AUdio.... no units left until the end of the month.... grrr...

I have the DAC1 from Benchmark (the new USB model) and I happen to love it. I don't drive anything but headphones with it at the moment, so I don't know what to say about it beside it's accurate, and bad music sounds bad through it.

I think that's what people call 'analytical'; I don't know, I don't really assign attributes to audio equipment. Some songs, electronic music mostly, have harsh glitchy things going on that can hurt my ears listening through it, but I blame the recordings in this case. 95% of my music doesn't have this problem.

I tend to go with pro-type equipment because I figure what's good for the studio is good for my home, and I also don't think that capacitors sound like anything. Probably just me, though.

Anthony!

I knew you seemed familiar!

Yeah... I got the Summits exactly a year ago.... you must've not checked back on MLO for a while.... hehehe!

I linger around here sometimes.... you had Ascents, so what do you have now?

Are you still on the fence with some DAC units? My order is still not yet filled... stupid backorder at PS AUdio.... no units left until the end of the month.... grrr...



yup, deja vu. i replaced mu ascent i's with jas odin speakers that are a combination of ribbon tweeter and accuton ceramic drivers. i loved my logans for the longest time and was sad to see them go (actually i wanted a speaker that was a lot smaller nicer finish). after months of searching and always thinking i made a mistake in selling the ascent's, i finally stumbled on the jas and bought them. they gave me all the transparency of the logans but with a much sweeter and smoother integration. bass is the strongest i have ever heard from a speaker this size and i sold my sub. i am extremely happy with my new speakers and now don't regret the move anymore. the more i listen to them them more they amaze me and i continue to look them more and more. glad you found the speakers that are right for you joey, the summits are excellent speakers.

If you have the money, why not an Apogee DA-16X (if you are multi-channel) or a Rosetta 200?

just an update, i have tried out both the accustic arts dac 4 and the mhdt paradisea. let me start with the paradisea.

first of all, the supplied ge tube is junk (to me anyways). it does not do justice what this dac is capable of. second, with a better tube the dac shows itself more openly, better soundstage and a very, very nice rich midrange. depending on what cables you use, it can be just the way you like it imo. i tried using nordost and got a very detailed and airy presentation. using kubala, the midrange is glorious to say the least, i honestly started listening and falling right into the music instead of analyzing it. it has great transient response, it is gentle and then fires. it is not forward in any way and has great depth. it could be a bit smoother and better 3 dimensionality, but for the price i may end up keeping it. it is much, much better than a lot of the $2-3k players i used. its midrange is seductive, i think it is a true, true bargain and worth every penny.

the aa mk4 dac does not have the rich midrange of the mhdt, but it is better in almost every way except that with the wrong cables it can (to me anyways) seem a bit too detailed. it is so smooth and natural, it sounds like real people and real instruments. nothing is tipped up in any way, vocals are pinpoint accurate and focus is amazing. piano reproduction is probably one of the best i have heard ever in my system. it sounds so much like a nice grand piano i was almost shocked when i heard it. i think the main words are naturalness and smoothness. i think with the right cabling, i can tone down the more forward "details" and allow the midrange to emerge more (thats what i im looking for in my system). not tipped up or inaccurate in any way, i just want it to be nfull and rich, without making it unnatural. in any case, i still have to try out the blue circle, but this dac looks promising and may stay with me.

the blue circle will be coming my way this week so i'll post an update in a few days time nonetheless.

Good to hear.... let us see some pics!

Meanwhile, I just received my DAC last week and have been slowly warming it to my system... so far, so good!

Joey

nice, please do let us know how they go.

okay, i have the blue circle dac in my house right now and all i can say is WOW!!! this unit is not the 501, it is the sbd (the little brother of the 501) with a very reasonable price tag. i wanted to try this little guy out to see if it was my cup of tea and then, if it was, proceed to the more expensive dacs up the line. well, i can say that in my system and with my preferences, it beats the pants of the accustic arts in every way. i did enjoy the aa dac, don't get me wrong, but the bc does everything so much better and at 1/3 of the price, it is a steal. now, in direct comparison to the paradisea, it is more detailed (not bright or tinny) but in a good way, more dynamics, air and separation. the paradisea is a lot more relaxed (some may call it laid back), and probably a bit more enjoyable if you just want to mellow out with the music. i haven't decided yet if im going to keep the bc. i like it a lot and may perhaps keep both dacs in my system. the 501 should be a lot better but at a bit double the price, i am already very happy with the sbd. i will listen more this weekend to this unit and compare it, i think it's also a keeper. will keep updates coming.

Anthony...very cool! I've not yet heard the SBD, but spent a long time with both the 501 and 501ob (prototype) and thoroughly enjoyed both. Obviously I'm biased as a Blue Circle dealer...!

hey phil, how was the 501 in comparison to the 501ob? was the latter much better?

hey phil, how was the 501 in comparison to the 501ob? was the latter much better?

The 501 is an excellent DAC at its price, but the 501ob is clearly a level above...definitely in the class of my Dodson DA-218. Sound-wise, both the 501 and 501ob offer a very "complete" sound...by this, I mean that they don't try to do one or two things extremely well at the expense of something else, so overall you get a very balanced and musical presentation...and you don't really notice specific "flaws". Then, going from the 501 to the 501ob will give you "more of everything", with similar balance, but more refinement/sophistication, detail, depth, soundstage, etc.

Hope this makes sense...

yeah, makes sense. that is exactly what my bc dealer told me and i can only guess what the higher models will sound like as the sbd is very balanced top to bottom with nothing really standing out. all the dacs i have tried (including the paradisea) do one thing better than something else. the bc stuff does everything well as you stated. how would you compare the dodson to the 501 or 501ob? is it more similar than different or is it clearly "better" in your opinion?

how would you compare the dodson to the 501 or 501ob? is it more similar than different or is it clearly "better" in your opinion?

The Dodson and the 501ob are clearly "better" IMHO than the 501...as previously mentioned, they are clearly a step up in terms of refinement, detail, soundstage, etc. Between the Dodson and the 501ob, the differences are incremental...the Dodson is a bit more fluid overall (often described as very "analog-like"), with slightly better bass speed and top-end extension, while the 501ob has a slight edge in holography and precision. Both are very musical, and neither would ever be mistaken for a dCS stack in terms of pure neutrality and transparency. My personal preference is still for the Dodson, but I could live with either and be very happy...

great comments phil. i guess now i can more clearly see what "differences" there are between the 2 as i have a pretty good hold of what the bc dacs can do. just as another comparison, how would you say the bel canto dac 2 or 3 is in relation to the blue circle dacs?

Try the musical fidelity X Dac I just demoed it in my system. AMAZING

great comments phil. i guess now i can more clearly see what "differences" there are between the 2 as i have a pretty good hold of what the bc dacs can do. just as another comparison, how would you say the bel canto dac 2 or 3 is in relation to the blue circle dacs?

The DAC2 was one of my favorite entry-level DACs. It wasn't the best in neutrality, not necessarily the most detailed DAC, but it was very very musical and a bit warm (which I prefer over analytical-sounding DACs). From pure "audiophile" criteria, DACs like the Benchmark DAC1 and April Music Stello DACs would walk all over it in the same price-range, but I strongly preferred the DAC2 for its musicality. That said, the DAC2 isn't in the same league as the Blue Circle 501 (as you'd expect for twice the price).

The DAC3, believe it or not, I have not spent a lot of time with it in my main system (I use it in a secondary system, where my DAC2 used to be). Comparing the DAC3 to the DAC2, the DAC3 is clearly in a higher class than the DAC2 in terms of audiophile criteria (imaging, transparancy, etc). It is probably the most neutral component I've ever heard from Bel Canto, but still a hair on the warm side. You get a sense of my preferences/tastes from these comments, and from that, you can probably guess that I prefer the Blue Circle 501 over the DAC3...but again, the DAC3 is a very good sounding DAC that I'm happy to use in my secondary system (my 2-channel AV system).

At the risk of losing whatever little Hi-end credibility I might have, I am currently debating the configuration of my system. It involves a choice of DAC, so please bare (sp?) with me.

I currently use my 2-channel system (VPI turntable, Benz Micro Ref MC, Black Cube Phono, Sonos ZP80, Bel Canto Pre6 multichannel linestage, Bel Canto 1000 Class D monoblocks, mbl 111 speakers) in my 4-channel HT (add HTPC, Marantz DV9500, Bel Canto 300 Class D amp, Mirage in-ceiling speakers). The speakers are in my living room, along with a motorized projector and screen (Infocus 5700, Stewart Greyhawk). Just adjacent to my living room, is a room to become my TV room, to include a 46" LCD 1080p flatscreen. I am considering purchasing a full two-zone (5.1 or 7.1 for both zones) AVR. The only one I am aware of is the Denon 5805, so I can run both the living room HT and the TV room Ht from the same sources.

Here is my DAC question. I need a DAC for my Sonos ZP80 (and an old Linn CD player). Is the DAC in the Denon 5805 (or some other full two zone AVR) of sufficient quality to compete with the PS Audio Dac III?

Alternatively, does anyone know of a sensible Hi-end alternative to the Denon 5805?

Is the DAC in the Denon 5805 (or some other full two zone AVR) of sufficient quality to compete with the PS Audio Dac III?

Alternatively, does anyone know of a sensible Hi-end alternative to the Denon 5805?

I doubt it... not only is there more circuitry when you run the signal through a reciever, even if you do use the preouts to go to your amp, but it's not balanced, nor are the output stages Class A, Fet-based and neither does the receiver have dedicated power supplies just for the DAC unit and having to share power supplies with all the other components of the receiver's bells/whistles... further degrading the sound.

I doubt it. But then again, I could be wrong.

Joey

I doubt it... not only is there more circuitry when you run the signal through a reciever, even if you do use the preouts to go to your amp, but it's not balanced, nor are the output stages Class A, Fet-based and neither does the receiver have dedicated power supplies just for the DAC unit and having to share power supplies with all the other components of the receiver's bells/whistles... further degrading the sound.

I doubt it. But then again, I could be wrong.

Joey

Thanks Joey. Sounds reasonable, and the PS Audio DAC 3 seems a good value for money. I will let you know how it sounds in my Sonos-driven system when the stocks finally make it to Singapore (should be a week or two) and I can audition one.

Thanks Joey. Sounds reasonable, and the PS Audio DAC 3 seems a good value for money. I will let you know how it sounds in my Sonos-driven system when the stocks finally make it to Singapore (should be a week or two) and I can audition one.

Yes, let me know for sure. We had a little gathering at my place, about 5 audiophiles altogether and the consensus was unanimous... the PS Audio DAC3 was a whole lot better than the SB3 outs (which are equal to the Sonos outs from what people with both have told me).

You will like it!

Not a bad price either.

:cool:

a further update to this thread. since i already own the paradisea, i will most likely be keeping it. the one thing this dac does that none of the other ones did was its musicality level and relaxed presentation. for jazz, classical, and pop, it sounds phenominal... never in your face, easy to listen to and so involving. where it lacks ultimately is in dynamics, and prat. don't get me wrong, this dac is non over-sampling thus it already has a relaxed sound to it. this can be referred to as "laid back" where many may equate it to lacking dynamics. i did a test for hard rock, dance and hip hop and wasn't that pleased. for jazz, etc. it has been my favorite as its midrange performance is so seductive and pleasing, you are drawn so much into the music (sax, piano, vocals). the blue circle does everything top to bottom better, but it is more "aggressive" than the paradisea (meaning when doing a direct swap, it is much faster, more dynamic and better suited to rock, dance, hip hop, etc.). i noticed right away when i swapped from the bc to the paradisea that the paradisea was much slower and rounder. the bc sounded aggressive in comparison. i am really not sure which one to get yet, both have plus and minuses, the paradisea being relaxed and enjoyable, bc being more "alive". time will tell. i think my dac seach continues....

Anthony,

Heard good things about MHdt products. Did you get it locally or direct from Taiwan ?

Thanks

Anyone compared to the Apogee Rosetta? That's the kind of thing your friend the studio engineer is using when producing the music you listen to. I've found it to be very detailed and true, but I have a hard time relating that to the comments above, not having heard the Bel Cantos.

Anthony,

Heard good things about MHdt products. Did you get it locally or direct from Taiwan ?

Thanks


i got it direct from mhdt in taiwan. he shipped it out right away and it arrived in a few days. not bad service for a 1 man operation.