LG to announce dual-format player at CES [Text View]

deria

01-04-07, 11:45 AM

This is going to result in one of two things happening. Either Universal will be forced to produce Blu-ray content as HD DVD dies (no reason for anyone to support HD DVD if dual format players and PS3 will support Blu-ray) or both will survive and consumers will reject both.

This is not going to be pretty.

I'm not sure how you arrived at that conclusion. There are several good reasons to support HD-DVD, even in a dual-format capable world:

1) the discs cost less to make
2) not everyone will have a dual-format player
3) the interactivity portions of hd-dvd are much more developed
4) the authoring tools for hd-dvd are more developed
5) the hd-dvd format supports lossles compressed audio (ie: you dont have to waste a ton of space with uncompressed PCM)
6) combo discs (hd-dvd/dvd) are attractive to those not yet ready to fully commit to the next generation format, or those who want to be able to play the movies in their existing players or on the road or make backups up them

There are probably alot of other reasons. And yes, Blu Ray has its own set of advantages. My point is that even if everyone magically had dual-format players, there would still be a need for HD-DVD.

In all honesty, if one format got less popular as a result of dual-format players it would likely be Blu Ray, since the ony real advantage that it has is storage capacity. If you don't need the storage capacity, odds are you'll release on the format that offers you everything else.

I'm in favor of dual-format players simply for the sake of not having to worry about what movie will be out on what format when. There aren't many Blu-Ray exclusive movies I care about so far, but there are a couple and I'd rather get them sooner than later (ie: instead of buying them on DVD, as I currently do).

BuGsArEtAsTy

01-04-07, 11:55 AM

1) Not anymore.
2) Who is going to be a single format player when a dual format player exists?
3) You haven't seen The Descent, have you?
4) See #3
5) Blu-ray has titles already with TrueHD and DTS MA. HD DVD only has used TrueHD.
6) Combo discs benefit no one.
So you're saying Blu-ray has caught up to HD DVD.

So what's the advantage for Blu-ray then? Not much, especially since I dispute your claim that Blu-ray is already as cheap as HD DVD to make. With hybrid players, any studio can just choose a single format and stick with it (Blu-ray or HD DVD). Since Universal is HD DVD exclusive anyway, there is no reason at all for them to change, especially now that they have quite a bit of experience authoring HD DVD discs. (BTW, there is no advantage to using DTS:MA over TrueHD, since both are lossless compression. The reason HD DVD sticks with TrueHD is because all the available players already support it.)

01-04-07, 11:59 AM

Oh hey why don't we turn this thread into another Blu-Ray vs. HD-DVD debate/war/discussion with absolutely no chance of anything productive occurring because neither side will ever believe anything the other says JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER THREAD IN THIS FORUM.

Sorry for my frustration but good God this was old before there even WERE players. How about we try to keep this thread on the topic of the new LG dual-format player and use one of the other 1,000 threads in this forum to pointlessly debate which format is better?

Phloyd

01-04-07, 12:24 PM

So you're saying Blu-ray has caught up to HD DVD.

I think the term you are looking for is surpassed.

We have seen DTS-MA and PCM with 6.1 - TruHD on HD DVD has been limited to 5.1

We have seen seemless branching, high bitrates, PiP and 6.1 lossless audio on a single title.

Perhaps you can tell us which HD DVD title matches this functionality?

nyg

01-04-07, 12:25 PM

A dual format player at this point is intriguing but I don't have any more confidence in LG putting out a quality, bug-free player than I do for Toshiba.

deria

01-04-07, 12:41 PM

1) Not anymore.
2) Who is going to be a single format player when a dual format player exists?
3) You haven't seen The Descent, have you?
4) See #3
5) Blu-ray has titles already with TrueHD and DTS MA. HD DVD only has used TrueHD.
6) Combo discs benefit no one.

I disagree with you on price. Can you show a credible source that says that Blu-Ray discs are now similar in cost to manufacture when compared to HD-DVD discs?

I have no seen the descent, no. Please tell me about it. Does it have Picture In Picture? Does it have bonus features that appear during the movie without interupting it? Can I choose which of those bonus features to view on the fly? Do the bonus features shrink the movie screen slightly when the picture in picture comes up so that less of it is obstructed? If Blu Ray does indeed have this level of interactivity, then I'll be alot more comfortable purchasing a player in that format at some point. Does it?

On the sound front, it doesn't matter whats on the disc if the player doesn't support it. The players aren't requried to support the advanced audio codecs, so most movies use PCM (which isn't necessarily bad, just wasteful).

I disagree on your point about combo-discs. They obviously benefit the three groups that I mentioned.

Someone commented on the potential quality of a product from LG. Do they have a particularly bad reputation? The only product that I've had from LG was a CD-ROM drive way back. It was fine, but that was a long time ago.

fa8362

01-04-07, 12:43 PM

Someone commented on the potential quality of a product from LG. Do they have a particularly bad reputation? The only product that I've had from LG was a CD-ROM drive way back. It was fine, but that was a long time ago.

LG = Goldstar. They changed their name, hoping people would forget.

BuGsArEtAsTy

01-04-07, 12:52 PM

I think the term you are looking for is surpassed.

We have seen DTS-MA and PCM with 6.1 - TruHD on HD DVD has been limited to 5.1

We have seen seemless branching, high bitrates, PiP and 6.1 lossless audio on a single title.

Perhaps you can tell us which HD DVD title matches this functionality?
I knew someone would say this. Thanks for being the first. ;)

I've always agreed the potential for Blu-ray's BD50 is an advantage. HD30 has 40% less space after all. However, the point was that we've already seen that HD30 is more than sufficient for excellent HD, including discs with TrueHD tracks and PiP or whatever. (The 5.1 on TrueHD is disc choice, not a format limitation, and truly high video bitrates are only needed for MPEG2.)

Arguing that X format can have 14 non-lossy tracks or whatever is missing the point. The point is that going forward it really comes down to cost and studio politics. Even if Blu-ray were as cheap as HD DVD (and I dispute this), why would an HD DVD exclusive studio switch to Blu-ray if it wanted HD DVD in the first place? Similarly, even if HD DVD truly were cheaper as I believe it likely is, that wouldn't make me expect a Blu-ray exclusive studio to switch to HD DVD.

The release of hybrid players makes all of this moot, so why switch sides?

skogan

01-04-07, 12:55 PM

Can you show a credible source that says Blu-ray discs are now different in cost to manufacture when compared to HD DVD discs?

.

Has there been new data released on this? Last I heard, the BD yields were pretty low, which results in higher cost... are you saying that is now changed? Do you have a link?

kiddsilk69

01-04-07, 01:20 PM

Is the descent the movie that flat out wont play in all the players but the ps3 bc whatever java base program BD uses for extra. Have they even finalized the specs for the interactive features?

BuGsArEtAsTy

01-04-07, 01:21 PM

That is a false statement. TrueHD FBA is limited to 5.1 and is the format all HD DVD titles have used thus far. FBB, which is supported by both, is the only version that supports up to 7.1.
That is wrong.

Warner has been using FBB, which is limited to 5.1. However, FBA supports 7.1, and yes as you say 7.1 is supported by HD DVD. ie. It's not a format limitation, which is what I said in the first place.

Can you show a credible source that says Blu-ray discs are now different in cost to manufacture when compared to HD DVD discs?
Up until recently, it was widely accepted that Blu-ray cost more, and even Sony did not dispute this. There have been no recent announcement that Blu-ray manufacturing costs the same, so I would have to say the burden of proof is on those that claim Blu-ray manufacturing costs are now the same.

BuGsArEtAsTy

01-04-07, 01:33 PM

No, if you are going to claim manufacturing costs are different, you have to show proof. And not some news article from last May, a recent article. I disputed that claim and ask for proof (by challenging the opposite). Burden of proof is on the original claim which is that HD DVD costs less to produce.
HD DVD cost less in 2006. You're the one claiming a change in this as of January 2007, so the burden of proof rests on you.

Until there is evidence that Blu-ray has caught up in this regard, most of us will go by the information that was last available.

deria

01-04-07, 01:39 PM

Hmm, that doesn't make alot of sense. If it is generally accepted that HD-DVD has been less costly to manufacture, and you content that is no longer the case, the burden of proof really is on you.

Regarding The Descent, the Blu-Wizard doesn't seem to match up with what I asked you. I read about that a few days ago, and it seemed that it was a method of allowing the user to choose (in advance) what special features they wanted to watch and then when the movie played it would branch out to those special features (ie: taking you out of the movie) to display them. It also would switch resolutions if the branched content wasn't in the same format as the movie.

Are you saying that it has been further developed and no longer suffers from these pitfalls? If so, good. I guess I should track down a review of the disc and see what the reveiwer thinks of it.

Kabillyhop

01-04-07, 01:39 PM

Once the dual format players come out, LG and the others that will follow, who will really care about this format war stuff any more? Just buy the format you like.

What really ticks me off with the present situation is that if you buy an existing player of either format, you're SOL for some titles. Dual format players will put an end to this nonsense. Format war - who cares!

deria

01-04-07, 01:41 PM

Once the dual format players come out LG and the others that will follow, who will really care about this format war stuff any more. Just buy the format you like.

What really ticks me off with the present situation is that if you buy an existing player of either format, you're SOL for some titles. Dual format players will put an end to this nonsense. Format war - who cares!

This is true to an extent, but if the dual-format players are substantially more expensive it could dampen adoption of HD in general. I'm pretty sure I'd pay a premium to not have to worry about the format war, though.

Phloyd

01-04-07, 01:54 PM

I knew someone would say this. Thanks for being the first. ;)

You're welcome.

I've always agreed the potential for Blu-ray's BD50 is an advantage.

However, the point was that we've already seen that HD30 is more than sufficient for excellent HD, including discs with TrueHD tracks and PiP or whatever. (The 5.1 on TrueHD is disc choice, not a format limitation, and truly high video bitrates are only needed for MPEG2.)

No seemless branching, no 6.1 lossless audio, no HD extras... yeah I can see why you would think that HD30 is adequate.

Are you are saying that higher bitrate doesn't benefit the 'advanced' codecs? Apparently Lionsgate using AVC on that title suggests that they do not agree. More bitrate will benefit any codec, including VC-1.

If 6.1 is a choice, why aren't they making the right choice? This has puzzled me somewhat since using the better codec would give them 6.1 or 7.1 and BD compatiblity... one wonders what the cost of doing this is based on what we see.

I think what we are now seeing is studios taking advantage of that potential that you speak of.

Arguing that X format can have 14 non-lossy tracks or whatever is missing the point. The point is that going forward it really comes down to cost and studio politics. Even if Blu-ray were as cheap as HD DVD (and I dispute this), why would an HD DVD exclusive studio switch to Blu-ray if it wanted HD DVD in the first place?

With respect to cost, the only cost that matters is the cost to consumers.

I think that the dual format player will make the cheaper disc in the store the more desirable one - so the more expensive HD DVD combo titles are going to become even more of a liability.

I also agree (incredible, yes? ;) ) that having dual format players will encourage the studios to remain exclusive to their chosen formats since the only potential lost sales are customers who cannot use your software.

So it will come down to the number of owners who have access to only BD vs the number that have access to only HD DVD.

It will certainly be interesting to see how this plays out. And I am sure that this player will be attractive to those who want HD DVD but not Toshiba.

BuGsArEtAsTy

01-04-07, 01:57 PM

With respect to cost, the only cost that matters is the cost to consumers.
Wrong again of course.

While it's true that we consumers like lower cost, it's also true that studios and manufacturers also like lower cost, obviously.

No seemless branching, no 6.1 lossless audio, no HD extras... yeah I can see why you would think that HD30 is adequate.

Are you are saying that higher bitrate doesn't benefit the 'advanced' codecs? Apparently Lionsgate using AVC on that title suggests that they do not agree. More bitrate will benefit any codec, including VC-1.

If 6.1 is a choice, why aren't they making the right choice? This has puzzled me somewhat since using the better codec would give them 6.1 or 7.1 and BD compatiblity... one wonders what the cost of doing this is based on what we see.

I think what we are now seeing is studios taking advantage of that potential that you speak of.
Again, you miss the point. If the studios actually bought that argument, HD DVD wouldn't even exist in the first place.

darinp2

01-04-07, 02:05 PM

Plays fine in the PS3, Panasonic, Samsung, and Philips.I've heard that it doesn't play in the Panasonic currently and I didn't think it played in the Samsung either. I'm expecting these guys to do firmware updates for their players that allow it to play, but no idea of when.
If 6.1 is a choice, why aren't they making the right choice?I'm not sure if the HD DVD players support 6.1 for TrueHD right now and uncompressed 6.1 could be a problem on HD DVD from a bitrate or space standpoint.

--Darin

Phloyd

01-04-07, 02:23 PM

While it's true that we consumers like lower cost, it's also true that studios and manufacturers also like lower cost, obviously.

As a consumer the price that matters is the label on the disc.

I am glad that you prefer to be ripped off where the manufacturer doesn't pass cost savings on to you. But I think most consumers would prefer that any cost savings are passed along?

Again, you miss the point. If the studios actually bought that argument, HD DVD wouldn't even exist in the first place.

Perhaps you should explain your point then, along with why seemless branching, HD extras, 6.1/7.1 lossless audio, advanced codecs with high bitrates are not included on you so called superior format?

Seems like your points have nothing to do with the consumer experience.

Indeed HD DVD was promoted and accepted as the cheap HD alternative. And as time goes by we see how cheap is the right word to describe it. If only it would actually cost less too...

skogan

01-04-07, 02:31 PM

HD30 is adequate.

Are you are saying that higher bitrate doesn't benefit the 'advanced' codecs? Apparently Lionsgate using AVC on that title suggests that they do not agree. More bitrate will benefit any codec, including VC-1.

There is diminishing returns to adding additional bit-rate past a certain point. Both formats have an adequate bit rate to allow first class movie playback, and the relative benefit of adding more bits is negligible. I've used this analogy in the past:

Imagine I wanted to buy a fuel efficient car, and I knew that wind drag would reduce fuel efficiency. Based on that, I only considered cars that don't have hood ornaments, because I know hood ornaments increase wind drag and therefor reduce fuel efficiency.

Hopefully, we all agree that would be silly, because of all the things that effect fuel efficiency, having a hood ornament is a very small factor. The same is true with the bit rates for the formats. There are many things that will effect PQ in the two formats, the bit rate difference between the two formats is so small, it won't be noticable.

We all want good looking and sounding movies. The fact is, the bit rate for either format are more than adequate to give us excellent quality. If you had 100 BD titles, and 100 HD DVD titles, blind testing wouldn't be able to distinguish between titles on BD and titles on HD DVD. No one would know which movies had the higher bit rates because of the diminishing returns of added bit rates. Of all the factors that go into good PQ (master, what it was shot on, grain, etc.), the bit rate of the two formats doesn't really have an effect.

So to me, picking a format based on bit rates is as illogical as picking a fuel efficient car based on whether or not it has a hood ornament. The reality is, that is not a distinguishing factor. They are functional equivalents in this area, and the decision should be made on other grounds.

Phloyd

01-04-07, 02:45 PM

There is diminishing returns to adding additional bit-rate past a certain point.

True, though there are companies that make their money on the higher end of the diminishing returns curve, especially in the home theater market.

That said, while your statement about 'adequate' is true for most releases, I think that we should be concerned with regard to longer, epic titles or titles with HD extras.

Also, if you have bitrate to burn, the time taken to compress a title would surely be much reduced, since the number of scenes where there is trouble requiring a more hands on approach and tweaking would be greatly reduced.

The thing about bitrate is - if you have plenty you can use it. If you do not, then you have to work around that limitation.

As previously noted, LPCM is not a waste of bits if you have plenty to start with. It is only a waste if you need to use those bits for other things.

BuGsArEtAsTy

01-04-07, 03:04 PM

Perhaps you should explain your point then, along with why seemless branching, HD extras, 6.1/7.1 lossless audio, advanced codecs with high bitrates are not included on you so called superior format?

Seems like your points have nothing to do with the consumer experience.

Indeed HD DVD was promoted and accepted as the cheap HD alternative. And as time goes by we see how cheap is the right word to describe it. If only it would actually cost less too...
Stop with the strawman arguments. I have never claimed that HD DVD is inherently superior. It does have several disadvantages including space and bitrate (although it does some advantages such as mandatory Dolby Digital Plus and mandatory TrueHD support). However, I do feel it is "excellent enough" to the point where the technical advantages are of little significance in the greater scheme of things for the studios.

True, though there are companies that make their money on the higher end of the diminishing returns curve, especially in the home theater market.
You mean like Disney and Universal? :rolleyes: For HD to be successful for the studios, the high end niche market is exactly what they want to be free of. HD needs to sell to the masses, and they understand that.

If HD video remains niche, then I'd say both Blu-ray and HD DVD have failed.

As a consumer the price that matters is the label on the disc.

I am glad that you prefer to be ripped off where the manufacturer doesn't pass cost savings on to you. But I think most consumers would prefer that any cost savings are passed along?
Obviously, it's easier for a company to offer us low prices if their costs are low.

skogan

01-04-07, 03:16 PM

Phloyd

01-04-07, 03:28 PM

However, I do feel it is "excellent enough" to the point where the technical advantages are of little significance in the greater scheme of things for the studios.

Ok - it is fine with me for you to settle for less.

You mean like Disney and Universal? :rolleyes: For HD to be successful for the studios, the high end niche market is exactly what they want to be free of. HD needs to sell to the masses, and they understand that.

The bleeding edge niche are the first target audience. The early adopters get things going.

In any case, these extra features are not coming at extra cost. The BD50s do not cost more (to consumers) than the other discs. So you get all the advantages (however small) with no added cost. Sounds like win-win to me.

Obviously, it's easier for a company to offer us low prices if their costs are low.
And yet they don't. I look forward to your explanation of that...

BuGsArEtAsTy

01-04-07, 03:29 PM

Phloyd

01-04-07, 03:35 PM

For optical disc, cost to manufacture has never had a bearing on cost to consumer. The "cost to replicate" arguement is mostly a studios concern.

Indeed we have seen this before with CDs and DVDs - the cost to replicate goes down but the in store prices stay the same.

We may already be at the point where the cost to replicate the discs from HD15 to BD50 is well covered by the sale price. And we certainly see with the Fox discs particularly that they are priced at a level that they think they can sell them at.

We also see higher prices for new movies compared to catalogue titles.

I think we will see a similar scenario to DVD form where there is a wide range of pricing determined by demand as opposed to the cost of disc making.

The value of something is the price that one man is willing to sell at and another is willing to buy. So it is and ever shall be :)

darinp2

01-04-07, 03:36 PM

I think I agree with Phloyd in at least one area. For optical disc, cost to manufacture has never had a bearing on cost to consumer. We always pay what the market will bare, which is well over cost to replicate. It wouldn't matter if BD cost $2 to make, and HD DVD's $.50. It's the demand for the content on the disc that sets the price for consumers. The "cost to replicate" arguement is mostly a studios concern.I pretty much agree as long as it isn't outrageous (like $8 a disc). For those who think the cost is a big part of what they charge, I would like to know why CDs cost so much. They can't cost very much to replicate.

As far as which studios would replicate on given a choice, with discs that studios can sell for $20, even $1.50 difference could easily be made up by extra sales. At that point the studios would need to look at how many sales they would lose if they only replicated on HD DVD or only replicated on Blu-ray.

I don't think the costs differences will end up that high. Especially when considering cases where HD extras could push them to 2 discs on HD DVD. I know there is the argument that studios like dual disc releases, but that seems to be more true for bigger titles and they can always use 2 BD25s if they feel that way. From what one insider said, it sounds like packaging costs with extra discs are something the studios consider. I'm not sure if dual disc releases take up more space and affect shipping, storage, and shelf space though.

--Darin

Phloyd

01-04-07, 03:37 PM

If BD cost $2 and HD DVD $0.50 at the same time with both available, BD would be totally dead in the water, precisely because of the studios' concerns. That is an enormous cost difference.

Only to the studio - to the consumer they are both $20.

skogan

01-04-07, 03:56 PM

Another example:

Popular new releases benefit from lower production cost due to economy of scale in the large volumes they move. Therefore, if manufacturing cost drove consumer pricing, one would think the most popular movies would be the cheapest. But in fact, popular movies are more expensive, indicating that market demand sets pricing, not manufacturing cost.

jbm007

01-04-07, 05:11 PM

January 04, 2007 (IDG News Service) -- LG Electronics Inc. will soon begin selling a high-definition video disc player compatible with both the HD-DVD and Blu-ray Disc standards, it said today.

The player will be unveiled at next week's Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas and go on sale in the U.S. in early 2007, LG said. No further details were immediately available.

A player compatible with both formats could do a lot to kick-start the high-definition movie disc market. To date consumers have taken a dim view to the format battle and most have stayed away from the incompatible technologies.

Both use blue lasers to achieve a storage capacity several times that of existing DVDs. Combined with advanced video compression systems they offer enough space to store movies in high definition.

Blu-ray Disc is backed by Sony Corp. and Matsushita Electric Industrial Co. Ltd. (Panasonic) along with a long list of electronics makers and achieves a capacity of 25GB on a single-sided disc. HD-DVD's main backer is Toshiba Corp., and the format also has broad support in Hollywood. A single-sided HD-DVD disc can store 15GB of data. In comparison a DVD stores 4.7GB.

LG initially supported just Blu-ray Disc but at this year's Cebit show in Germany it confirmed it was also developing an HD DVD drive. Later in the year, Samsung Electronics Co. Ltd. said it was also considering development of a dual-format drive.

It's easy for most Blu-ray Disc backers to quietly research the addition of HD-DVD technology to their drives. HD-DVD is supported by the DVD Forum, the standards body behind DVD and to which most Blu-ray Disc backers are already members. That means HD-DVD technology has been available to them since the format was first adopted several years ago.

nataraj

01-04-07, 05:12 PM

AV Doogie

01-04-07, 05:25 PM

hmurchison

01-04-07, 05:26 PM

nataraj we're not supposed to consider any other viewpoint than that of a consumer. ;)

Frankly a lower cost format is important to me even as a consumer because I know that the more thrifty format will likely see more price drops in the future bringing the technology down to very affordable levels.

DVDs this Xmas were as low as $2.99 for decent titles.

yoyoniner

01-04-07, 05:34 PM

Do you think a 5% cost reduction (thus about 5% higher profit) is appealing to studios ?

Only in an apples to apples world, which BR and HD-DVD most certainly are not given that one has a lot more capacity for the studios extras, better copy protection for their content, and a larger potential customer base given that the PS3 will always only play Blu-ray movies. And what if the replication costs are the same by the time these universal players are ubiquitous? What compelling reason then would a studio choose HD-DVD exclusivity?

tsd2005

01-04-07, 06:13 PM

So a large CE announces a Dual Format player. A thread is posted.

Then the BD fanbabies come in and post all the FUD (example: BD software not costing a lot more than HD-DVD, Sony won't be sharing the costs with everyone for long, then it gets WORSE) they can think of and try and twist the thread. Why?

This is a WIN-WIN situation for the consumer, incase you dumbasses didn't figure it out, that means you.

My God, how pathetic you guys can act is really, really, really annoying.

Bottomline:

LG is coming out with a Dual Format player

and they aren't the only one....

There are supposedly at least THREE... if all announce at CES I don't know. (The 3 comes from an NEC VP who said three CEs had invested in their tech, and that was 3 months ago).

Basic Marketing says:

A lot of people will buy Dual Format players if the cost is reasonable. LG is likely to price the player at the same cost as BD players, specifically to mess with Sony. So you can either buy a HD-DVD player or a Dual Format player. Because buying a BD player when a Dual Format costs the same... is well not using your head.

However most people will buy the cheapest. However costs will come down. More CEs will make Dual-Format players.

At some point Dual-Format will become the player everyone buys, but until then a majority will buy the cheapest.

That means that HD-DVD will keep the majority shares of stand alone players.

Frank Derks

01-04-07, 06:18 PM

Lower production cost are a given for HD DVD.

It's more expensive to setup BR production capacity than to convert existing SD DVD capacity into HD DVD capability.

At this stage in the bell curve both disc formats are not mass market products.
Production capacity is probably not an issue.

Dual format players level the playing field. It will attract attention and other ce companies will have to follow. This can only be good for mass market acceptance (if the player is priced low enough.)

If this happens and sales of discs start to ramp up then it also becomes a matter of production capacity constraints.
There isn't enough capacity yet to support big mainstream releases.

I expect that studio's opt for the format which gives the fastest and cheapest option to get the most discs into retail for box office releases.

BR is only just out of the gate and a dual format player is coming within the next couple of months. This could fuel mass market acceptance up to a point that production can't keep up with demand.

wormraper

01-04-07, 06:19 PM

nataraj

01-04-07, 06:28 PM

The economics lesson above is lost on some.... don't you think. Take the small margin and multiply by 10k or even 100k to see the profit margin generated by a small difference when selling in large numbers!

Yes. And another thing with direct cost like this is every cent saved goes directly to the margin/profit. Also, even if it is a small % of the retail price, it is a significant/bigger % of the margin/profit.

tsd2005

01-04-07, 06:30 PM

It comes down to the fact that the Fanboys (on either side, so I'm not just picking on one side) don't want a dual format player and still want one thing. For their format to WIN, plain and simple, this has passed being a format war to get the best HD to the consumer, this has become a pissing contest to see who's format trounces the other. A lot of people's pride seems wrapped up in who wins.

Right but it seems to be primarily BD fanbabies.

Why neither side can admit that both sides offer great HD content is beyond me. The Dual-Format player is the ultimate answer for the right price.

It will be interesting to see if LG decides be aggressive with their pricing. Anything at $999 or lower would flat out make every BD player priced the same a poor purchasing decision.

The XA2 however is different in that it is actually a top of the line HD Content player, the Silicon Optix chip in it makes it the best HD player on the market PQ wise, hands down. Thus it's price of $999 is like buying a beautique player. You're paying for that 20% increase in PQ.

wormraper

01-04-07, 06:40 PM

Right but it seems to be primarily BD fanbabies.

agreed

Why neither side can admit that both sides offer great HD content is beyond me. The Dual-Format player is the ultimate answer for the right price.

It will be interesting to see if LG decides be aggressive with their pricing. Anything at $999 or lower would flat out make every BD player priced the same a poor purchasing decision.

I've been suspicious for a long time that we may be in a DVD +/- R situation here. Dual format players coming out and negating the whole war. Some people will disagree that this might kill the HD marked but I tend to disagree. the studios want HD media to succeed BAAAAAAAAAAADLY. they need a new format, whether it be Blu-Ray of HD DVD. If both can co-exist who gives a crap. with the emergence of Dual format players the only ones really worried about having two formats are the DVD forum and BDA. Other than that the studios will pump out discs and not give a crap. I could even see a blending of releases. some releases (from just about every studio but Fox and Sony ;) ) to release shorter films on HD DVD and really long films on D/L Blu-Ray. Either way, we win :)

hmurchison

01-04-07, 06:42 PM

Schlotkins

01-04-07, 06:50 PM

If NEC has 3 potential Universal products then we could see as many as 5 announced calendar 2007 as Broadcom has alluded to some vendors using their BCM7440 for Universal players.

This war is so over it's not even funny. The only thing remaining is what studios and retailers do. Neither format won..it's a digital stalemate.

Well, I think NEC would be the drive supplier and then Broadcom the decoder... I could be wrong on that.

I agree this is great for consumers. I have an A2 and I was worried about being stuck with $1000s of discs in a format that died. I figured I could get a PS3 to hedge my bets and will probably do that as I have a sunk cost of the A2. If multiple combo players are announced, that's fantastic as I can buy BOTH formats without having to worry about kind of disc it is or if I'll be able to find a player for it down the road.

I just hope, at some point down the road, the camps figure this out and at least agree to go with one packaging and combo players as the "standard."

Dauod

01-04-07, 07:03 PM

This is great news for us, the consumers! Screw the format war, it is soooo over! :D

Now all you fanbois on both sides can find a new crusade to fight! Maybe this forum will revert to what it once was, a great place to come and discuss our favorite hobby, home theater!

Rob Tomlin

01-04-07, 07:07 PM

Just think of how many more players LG could have sold if they released this when they were originally planning to (and beat the PS3 to market)!

The impact of universal players on the format war will be interesting to watch, especially regarding format neutral studios. If a movie is available in both formats, which one will the consumer buy if they are the same price? Personally I would lean towards the BD discs because of the better ratings for sound quality, but who knows what the majority of consumers would do.

DavidML3

01-04-07, 07:22 PM

Twehttam

01-04-07, 07:27 PM

My thoughts as well. I think I'll hold off on a PS3 purchase until it drops to a more comfortable console price ($249-$399) and look into a standalone dual-format player - especially if it/they retail at or close to PS3 pricing ($600-$800).

darinp2

01-04-07, 07:33 PM

hrerikl

01-04-07, 08:44 PM

They also need to look at volumes. As in, only printing on the disc type for one format is bound to cost them some sales. Those sales need to trump the extra cost of the higher priced format for that higher profit you mentioned to actually be there. Those mastering costs you mentioned aren't fixed and so higher volumes come into play there, along with any cost of doing an extra mastering. It is not nearly as simple as reducing costs to have a higher profit. Especially not with a very high margin product where each extra sale is a lot toward the profit. Even if they do only release on one format, maximizing profit doesn't instantly mean it will be the one with the lower disc replication costs. The number of sales needs to be factored in and the higher profit could easily be gained by releasing on the one with the higher disc replication cost. This is one reason I feel that both formats need to have their players that only play their format as defense for their side.

--Darin
The question is will it be most profitable to release in two seperate formats or to use Universals combo format or to release in one format only when all costs are considered. Also, if universal players become the norm, when studios release in two seperate formats, will we see different price premiums assigned to each format to encourage the purchase of the one that is most profitable for them, and yet not miss out on the sales of the other exclusive format. Could we see studios leaving some features (lossless audio, etc.) off of one format and then charging a premium for the platinum version on the other? Probably not but it still seems there are a lot of ways things could shake out.

vasanda

01-04-07, 08:49 PM

Ps2 makes most bd players useless. You get the sony brand and a game machine! Don't get me wrong - I think ps3 is mispriced by $100 in terms of marketing even if it is "worth" more.

miata

01-04-07, 09:49 PM

Could we see studios leaving some features (lossless audio, etc.) off of one format and then charging a premium for the platinum version on the other? Probably not but it still seems there are a lot of ways things could shake out.

This is a scary thought. The studios don't even need two formats. Look at how they release different versions of the same title in SD DVD today. Sell one version close to the price of the DVD and the other at 2x.

I sure can be a pessimist sometimes :confused:

csmith75

01-04-07, 09:51 PM

So what is the purpose of shelling out this money for a ps3 when you can get a combo for around the same price? Basically the ps3 is the bluray player. This is why I dont like the fact Sony forced it on you. They should have went with the separate format and let the consumer choose.

Now with my PS3 lacking in any good games I feel like I just bought a 600 paperweight.

Who said the combo unit was going to cost around the same as the PS3?

As far as the PS3 being a paperweight, at least you can still play games on it. Imagine how people who bought a Blu-ray player that may cost the same as the combo will feel (if they're even remotely interested in Universal titles).

BuGsArEtAsTy

01-04-07, 10:07 PM

NEC and Broadcom may dual-format components apparently. What about the actual blue laser mechanism? Is that part of NEC's offering?

Who said the combo unit was going to cost around the same as the PS3?

As far as the PS3 being a paperweight, at least you can still play games on it. Imagine how people who bought a Blu-ray player that may cost the same as the combo will feel (if they're even remotely interested in Universal titles).
That's was one of the reasons I was considering getting the PS3 in April (in addition to the 360 I currently have)... until I found out it doesn't support my 1080i TV properly. 720p games are displayed at only 480p on my TV. :rolleyes:

Anyways, hybrid players make the decision moot. I'll use my HD DVD add-on for the 360 for the time being, and then buy a hybrid player in 2008, when the prices are more reasonable.

EDIT:

This guy claims the LG combo player is gonna be $1199 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=780915).

OUCH!

nataraj

01-04-07, 10:58 PM

As in, only printing on the disc type for one format is bound to cost them some sales.

I agree. I was addressing why even small costs matter .... (nothing to do with formats / format wars as such). For eg. that the reason PS3 doesn't have a HDMI cable (which probably costs $1 ....).

In the case of this format war, this scenario comes into picture when everyone has a CE universal player (like people have DVD players now). And PS3 / HD DVD add-on are not really something to worry about.

BuGsArEtAsTy

01-05-07, 07:27 AM

MS claims HD DVD is still cheaper to manufacture at this time. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=781169)

"In the event a dual player is released this year, we believe HD DVD will be in a favorable position because HD DVD discs are easier to produce, less expensive to manufacture and contain the most advanced interactive capabilities," said Kevin Collins, Microsoft's HD DVD evangelist.

P.S. The drive in the LG combo player will be an LG-Hitachi.

David Susilo

01-05-07, 08:05 AM

LG = Goldstar. They changed their name, hoping people would forget.

LG stands for Lucky Goldstar. Nothing "hidden".

Jackinbox

01-05-07, 08:14 AM

However most people will buy the cheapest. However costs will come down. More CEs will make Dual-Format players.

At some point Dual-Format will become the player everyone buys, but until then a majority will buy the cheapest.

Not me. If it's great quality, then sure I'm in. But I won't simply buy something because it is "the cheapest". I watch friends of mine replace their Apex and Cyberhome DVD players about every year because they crap out rather quickly. Rather than spend a few dollars more for a quality machine, they keep buying these el-cheapo players.

BuGsArEtAsTy

01-05-07, 08:30 AM

Not me. If it's great quality, then sure I'm in. But I won't simply buy something because it is "the cheapest". I watch friends of mine replace their Apex and Cyberhome DVD players about every year because they crap out rather quickly. Rather than spend a few dollars more for a quality machine, they keep buying these el-cheapo players.
I've had two Daytek players for about 4 years now. My friend's Toshiba lasted less than a year, although my RCA is still going strong after 8 years, and my Panasonic after 5.

BTW, the reason I have the Daytek players is because they are region free. And if such a player dies, I'm only out $50.

Anyways... Yes, the cheapest players do suck, but we're not talking about $50 players here. We are talking about $499 players from popular name brands when talking about the HD formats. You can damn well be sure that at the $400+ price point, price makes a humungous impact on purchasing decisions. Most people I know have no problem spending $100 on a DVD player, but do have a huge problem spending even "just" $500 on an HD player. Once the players hit $299, there is going to be an explosion of adoption IMO, especially if that $299 is reached by a 1st or 2nd tier name brand.

That VP that quit a couple of months ago when a Blu-ray player was introduced: Wasn't that an LG VP? If so, maybe it has to do with the fact that the Blu-ray/HD DVD player wasn't announced earlier, despite the fact that it was coming so soon.
I see from other posts that the VP that quit was indeed an LG VP, when the LG Blu-ray player was announced. I guess he knew that the Blu-ray player was going to be vapourware. I wonder if LG did this simply to appease the Blu-ray manufacturers (assuming LG didn't have a contract to do this). They'd keep mum over the Xmas holidays and thus they wouldn't severely impact Xmas Blu-ray/PS3 sales, but then would drop the hybrid bomb in January.

Issac Hunt

01-05-07, 08:31 AM

longshot

01-05-07, 09:43 AM

Rio

01-05-07, 04:04 PM

Dual format player aside, will there any "cheaper" HD DVD player be announced at CES? The only player we heard so far other than Toshiba which supports HD DVD playback seems "overpriced" by the definition of HD DVD supporters here. Well, it's interesting that if another possible manufacturers follow suit same way, to avoid "cheap" pricing...

Grubert

01-05-07, 04:49 PM

Dual format player aside, will there any "cheaper" HD DVD player be announced at CES?

They say that lawyers and hidef insiders only ask a question openly when they already know the answer. ;)

Phloyd

01-05-07, 07:48 PM

There is another way to look at it.

Let us say the wholesale cost of a movie is $15. Various royalties and fixed costs (mastering etc) turn out to be $5 given an expected sales volume. So, the gross revenue is $10.

So, now the "profit" depends on replication cost. And all companies are looking to cut costs all the time (when that cost is not a shiny new jet for execs).

Do you think a large cost reduction (thus about 5-10% higher profit) wouldn't appealing to studios ?

I am sure it would be appealing.

Let's take a real life example.

Flightplan was released on Bluray disc using VC-1 codec. They encoded the movie with an astounding 28 Mbps bitrate. That seems like a lot considering the 'we are now sub 10 mbps!' coming from the Microsoft representitives here.

So... consider these things....

This bitrate is so high that the disc was pressed as a BD50 not a BD25. It would not have taken much bitrate reduction to release this as a BD25.

So, this is what this says to me...

28 bps was the optimal video bitrate for this title. To have encoded it in less bits would have saved them money in replication costs since it would have been a single layer disc, not a dual layer.

Second the implication is that BD50 is not hideously more expensive to produce. If it was the studio greed noted in the quote above would have pushed to the profit before quality decision, rather than the quality first approach that was taken.

The last implication from this is that codecs, even VC-1, do benefit from higher bitrates. Otherwise it would make no sense to use 28 Mbps for this title when it would be cheaper to encode it with less.

Wouldn't you love for the HD DVDs to also have 28 Mbps video? Oh yeah I forgot that HD DVD wouldn't be able to handle the overall bitrate... oh well.

For me, I would love to see the Warner titles released with optimal bitrates per format instead of saddling Bluray with the HD DVD restricted encodes.

I know that this is off topic and if best it can be moved to its own thread.

In any case, I am off to CES to check out the LGE booth for sure. Have fun folks!

Phloyd

01-05-07, 07:53 PM

At some point Dual-Format will become the player everyone buys, but until then a majority will buy the cheapest.

That means that HD-DVD will keep the majority shares of stand alone players.

Interesting interpretation.

My interpretation is that if dual players are the majority, there is no reason to make HD DVDs at all. Certainly the studios with over 50% of 2006 box office that are Bluray exclusive will have no reason to make HD DVDs ... even Warner and Paramount would be able to just make Bluray discs since most people will be able to play them by your assertion above.

I guess the dual player is a good thing after all! Thanks for the enlightenment :)

dominicr

01-05-07, 08:00 PM

Interesting interpretation.

My interpretation is that if dual players are the majority, there is no reason to make HD DVDs at all. Certainly the studios with over 50% of 2006 box office that are Bluray exclusive will have no reason to make HD DVDs ... even Warner and Paramount would be able to just make Bluray discs since most people will be able to play them by your assertion above.

I guess the dual player is a good thing after all! Thanks for the enlightenment :)

Nice way to spin it your way. If dual players are still way beyond prices of HDDVD players, maybe squeezing out BD?

AV Doogie

01-05-07, 08:11 PM

I am sure it would be appealing.

Let's take a real life example.

Flightplan was released on Bluray disc using VC-1 codec. They encoded the movie with an astounding 28 Mbps bitrate. That seems like a lot considering the 'we are now sub 10 mbps!' coming from the Microsoft representitives here.

So... consider these things....

This bitrate is so high that the disc was pressed as a BD50 not a BD25. It would not have taken much bitrate reduction to release this as a BD25.

So, this is what this says to me...

28 bps was the optimal video bitrate for this title. To have encoded it in less bits would have saved them money in replication costs since it would have been a single layer disc, not a dual layer.

This is obviously your opinion... The optimal bitrate for this movie would be determined by one of the encoding people who worked on the movie.
Second the implication is that BD50 is not hideously more expensive to produce. If it was the studio greed noted in the quote above would have pushed to the profit before quality decision, rather than the quality first approach that was taken.

As far as anyone knows, BD50 discs are still being subsidized for production, so no, the cost is probably not prohibitive.

The last implication from this is that codecs, even VC-1, do benefit from higher bitrates. Otherwise it would make no sense to use 28 Mbps for this title when it would be cheaper to encode it with less.

There is a point of diminishing returns on excessive bitrates. MSFT has indicated that 20-22Mbps and less will provide PQ approx equal to original master. Besides, you do know that the pcm track takes up a great deal of the bitrate....right?

Wouldn't you love for the HD DVDs to also have 28 Mbps video? Oh yeah I forgot that HD DVD wouldn't be able to handle the overall bitrate... oh well.

Fanboy comment. ^

For me, I would love to see the Warner titles released with optimal bitrates per format instead of saddling Bluray with the HD DVD restricted encodes.

I know that this is off topic and if best it can be moved to its own thread.

In any case, I am off to CES to check out the LGE booth for sure. Have fun folks!.

Phloyd

01-05-07, 08:11 PM

Nice way to spin it your way. If dual players are still way beyond prices of HDDVD players, maybe squeezing out BD?

There is only one 'inexpensive' HD DVD player - the 1080p capable player is $1000.

The Samsung and the PS3 are 1080p Bluray players and are available for less than $600.

So if the dual player is over $1000 it is an expensive option - you could get one of each for less perhaps!

AV Doogie

01-05-07, 08:20 PM

There is only one 'inexpensive' HD DVD player - the 1080p capable player is $1000.

The Samsung and the PS3 are 1080p Bluray players and are available for less than $600.

So if the dual player is over $1000 it is an expensive option - you could get one of each for less perhaps!

Phloyd...do you own a 1080p display and do you know the difference between 1080i and 1080p. Because this argument is a moot point. There is no difference between the data provided by the 1080i/p stream which you will see on a device smaller than 100". So making arguments about the player costs w/respect to the output is BS.

The Samsung is not a competitor in the HD category...in my opinion. This player has numerous DVD playback deficiencies and does a poor job of 1080I/P output to boot. The PS3 might be fine for some folks, but I don't want a game machine for HD playback (it doesn't fit in my rack). Nor does the PS3 operate like a rack mounted AV component.

dominicr

01-05-07, 08:21 PM

Don't worry about 1080p. J6P will see "HIGH DEF" disk player for $299 or maybe $399 and jump on it. If they are ready for HD. Too many here forget they are too into this hobby to see things the way the masses see it.

dominicr

01-05-07, 08:22 PM

Phloyd...do you own a 1080p display and do you know the difference between 1080i and 1080p. Because this argument is a moot point. There is no difference between the data provided by the 1080i/p stream which you will see on a device smaller than 100". So making arguments about the player costs w/respect to the output is BS.

The Samsung is not a competitor in the HD category...in my opinion. This player has numerous DVD playback deficiencies and does a poor job of 1080I/P output to boot. The PS3 might be fine for some folks, but I don't want a game machine for HD playback (it doesn't fit in my rack). Nor does the PS3 operate like a rack mounted AV component.

Right on. A game system will not help.

Phloyd

01-05-07, 08:23 PM

This is obviously your opinion... The optimal bitrate for this movie would be determined by one of the encoding people who worked on the movie.

This is a strange thing to say. After all the 28 Mbps bitrate was set by the people that encoded the movie.

Can you explain how this is my opinion rather than fact?

If you want to see the numbers, check the bluray bitrate thread. Yeah, we know about PCM sound and its bitrate.

Microsoft has said many things - just because they say something doesn't make it true.

Apparently Disney at least didn't agree with Microsoft's assessment as is evidenced by this release.

vancouver

01-05-07, 08:23 PM

Can I ask a stupid question. Is there any way this player will not be released? If they have anounced the player does that mean fo sure Sony or Toshiba wont/cant sue LG over this?

AV Doogie

01-05-07, 08:29 PM

This is a strange thing to say. After all the 28 Mbps bitrate was set by the people that encoded the movie.

Can you explain how this is my opinion rather than fact?

If you want to see the numbers, check the bluray bitrate thread. Yeah, we know about PCM sound and its bitrate.

Microsoft has said many things - just because they say something doesn't make it true.

Apparently Disney at least didn't agree with Microsoft's assessment as is evidenced by this release.

Did you talk to the encoding personnel personnally? What this means is that we have Disney with a VC-1 encode (great), the encoding personnel may/may not have much experience with the new encoding tools, which means that they don't yet know how to 'optimize' them, and since they have 50Gb to work with they said....aww hell, let the encoder do its business with the highest available bitrate so we don't have to put much time into the encoding process.

David Susilo

01-05-07, 08:32 PM

they can't sue LG. As long as LG pays royalties to both HD DVD and BD camp, there is nothing they can do about it.

PS: a picture of LG dual format player for PC is on engadget today (actually it's a BD burner/player + DVD+/-R/RW burner/player + HD DVD player PC combo drive)

Phloyd

01-05-07, 08:35 PM

Phloyd...do you own a 1080p display and do you know the difference between 1080i and 1080p.

I work for a company that makes 1080p display devices

So making arguments about the player costs w/respect to the output is BS.

So... what is the double price of the XA2 for then?

The Samsung is not a competitor in the HD category...in my opinion.

A lot of people don't like Toshiba as a company either.

David Susilo

01-05-07, 08:36 PM

... not only that, the total number of BD capable players (PS3+standalones+dual format) will be much higher than hd dvd capable players... the PS3 install base will be to big to ignore.

ahhhh, that refreshing word again: "will".

Just like:

BD will smoke HD DVD in PQ
BD will smoke HD DVD in sales
BD will be the majority

and if anybody ask when, the answer will start with the phase:

Wait until...

Phloyd

01-05-07, 08:37 PM

Did you talk to the encoding personnel personnally? What this means is that we have Disney with a VC-1 encode (great), the encoding personnel may/may not have much experience with the new encoding tools, which means that they don't yet know how to 'optimize' them, and since they have 50Gb to work with they said....aww hell, let the encoder do its business with the highest available bitrate so we don't have to put much time into the encoding process.

I see ... so now you know what Disney's compressionists are thinking.

I am impressed with your insight.

Wasn't that exactly what you were criticising me for doing?

Personally I imagine that Disney hires good people... but hey you could be right.

bobgpsr

01-05-07, 08:38 PM

dominicr

01-05-07, 08:38 PM

David Susilo

01-05-07, 08:40 PM

I work for a company that makes 1080p display devices

I'm sorry, Phloyd, but I know a lot of people who works for a company that makes digital cameras who don't know that an 8MP on a dSLR is not the same quality as an 8MP on a point and shoot regardless they're made by the same company they work for. I also know a lot of people who work at a certain very respectable audio company who don't know the difference between "conversion" and "up-conversion".

Phloyd

01-05-07, 08:42 PM

I'm sorry, Phloyd, but I know a lot of people who works for a company that makes digital cameras who don't know that an 8MP on a dSLR is not the same quality as an 8MP on a point and shoot regardless they're made by the same company they work for. I also know a lot of people who work at a certain very respectable audio company who don't know the difference between "conversion" and "up-conversion".

Is this some kind of personal attack?

Perhaps you know more about me than I do?

AV Doogie

01-05-07, 08:43 PM

I see ... so now you know what Disney's compressionists are thinking.

I am impressed with your insight.

Wasn't that exactly what you were criticising me for doing?

Personally I imagine that Disney hires good people... but hey you could be right.

Hey I didn't indicate that I knew what they were thinking, I said may/may not have experience! Flightplan is one of the first - if not the first VC-1 encoded title for Disney....they have a learning curve to drive.........

David Susilo

01-05-07, 08:49 PM

Is this some kind of personal attack?

Perhaps you know more about me than I do?

All I'm saying that just because you work for a company that makes 1080 display, doesn't mean that you know the technology. Twisting my intent and accusing me of attacking you also means that you know me than myself.

No, I don't know who you are and I don't care either way. The fact that you think 1080/60p is "better" than 1080/60i shows that either you don't know what you're talking about or your company makes a 1080 display that can't de-interlace and do reverse telecine 1080/60i properly. Just like when people say uncompressed is better than lossless. If it's done properly, uncompressed and lossless should be identical, just like 1080/60i and 1080/60p should look identical.

Phloyd

01-05-07, 08:53 PM

I know the technology well enough.

So, what was the advantage of the XA2 player again? What is the extra $500 for?

AV Doogie

01-05-07, 08:53 PM

I work for a company that makes 1080p display devices

So... what is the double price of the XA2 for then?

A lot of people don't like Toshiba as a company either.

If you work for a display company, then you know that the I/P argument is marketing hype...especially when both formats are encoded at 1080P24

The XA2 has 1080P24 along with HDMI 1.3 which accounts for a majority of the cost increase (I would speculate). Anyhow, I bought an XA1 (demo unit) which is identical to the A1 for more money because I saw the value there. By the way, the XA1 provides the best upconverted images I have ever seen (comparing this to a $1200 Denon 59AVI).

I have never had a problem with the few Toshiba products I own. But these are personal choices too.

David Susilo

01-05-07, 08:56 PM

I know the technology well enough.

So, what was the advantage of the XA2 player again? What is the extra $500 for?

apparently you're also not familiar with the differences between the A2 and XA2.

The $500 is for:

1. better built player
2. analog outputs (lots of high quality DACs)
3. better remote
4. better cosmetics (yes people buy for that)
5. peace of mind for people who thinks 1080/60p is better than 1080/60i
6. better PQ for people who uses 1080 display who can't do de-interlacing of 1080/60i signal properly

oh and to add, the XA2 also has:
HDMI 1.3 (1.2 on the A2)
gold plated output jacks (as pointless as 1080/60p)
12 bit video DAC (instead of 11 bit on the A2)

wreckshop

01-05-07, 08:59 PM

ahhhh, that refreshing word again: "will".

Just like:

BD will smoke HD DVD in PQ
BD will smoke HD DVD in sales
BD will be the majority

and if anybody ask when, the answer will start with the phase:

Wait until...

funny, that you responded to this specifically in my post:
aslo, the total number of BD capable players (PS3+standalones+dual format) will be much higher than hd dvd capable players... the PS3 install base will be to big to ignore.

when in fact it BD capable players DO (not will) outnumber hd dvd capable players and studios have already said that they believe the PS3 install base will influence uptake of HD media.

it's funny how hd dvd supporters like to make the claim that studios will follow the money but totally downplay the PS3. if there is an install base of 50m PS3s, and 10% use their console to watch movies, do you really think the studios will ignore those 5 million BD only users?

Phloyd

01-05-07, 08:59 PM

The displays are 1080p.

The signal is converted to 1080p by the player or the display scaler.

If you bother to read Mr. Susilo - I never said 1080p out of the player was better.

It is just available and adds cost, and you can choose to let your display or player scale depending on which is better.

So we see that the XA2 has a $1000 price tag - the same price as the Sony BD player with 1080p24 output.

1080p does not come for free. Regardless if it is better or not needed.

So far there is no cheap 1080i BD player to compare with the A2... but there are 1080p capable ones are around the same price.

Do you understand now?

AV Doogie

01-05-07, 09:00 PM

I know the technology well enough.

So, what was the advantage of the XA2 player again? What is the extra $500 for?

See above^ and
- plays CD's (only Sammy/Panny and PS3)
-provides a working HDMI 1.3 output (only ps3 provides this)
-works with all the current codecs (no bd player provides this that I know of)
-costs less than any of the above players except first gen discounted Sammy
-Uses the new HQV Reon conversion chip which is supposed to be the cats-ass

Phloyd

01-05-07, 09:01 PM

The $500 is for:

1. better built player
2. analog outputs (lots of high quality DACs)
3. better remote
4. better cosmetics (yes people buy for that)
5. peace of mind for people who thinks 1080/60p is better than 1080/60i
6. better PQ for people who uses 1080 display who can't do de-interlacing of 1080/60i signal properly

I didn't realise the A2 was such a lousy player...

Rob Tomlin

01-05-07, 09:05 PM

If you work for a display company, then you know that the I/P argument is marketing hype...especially when both formats are encoded at 1080P24

The XA2 has 1080P24 along with HDMI 1.3 which accounts for a majority of the cost increase (I would speculate). Anyhow, I bought an XA1 (demo unit) which is identical to the A1 for more money because I saw the value there. By the way, the XA1 provides the best upconverted images I have ever seen (comparing this to a $1200 Denon 59AVI).

I have never had a problem with the few Toshiba products I own. But these are personal choices too.

You have a Denon 59AVI? And the XA2 is even better at upconverting SD DVD's? Wow!

AV Doogie

01-05-07, 09:05 PM

I didn't realise the A2 was such a lousy player...

You should really pick one up and see what a nice player it is. People are impressed with the video quality (same as BD) for half the cost!!!

That is what this is about.

David Susilo

01-05-07, 09:06 PM

I didn't realise the A2 was such a lousy player...

well, at least it's:

1. not a game machine pretending to be a movie player
2. upscales SD DVD greatly
3. comes with proper remote control
4. better cosmetics than that bulging slot-load PS3
5. designed for people who knows that 1080/60i yields the same PQ as 1080/60p
6. cheaper than even the cheapest PS3

AV Doogie

01-05-07, 09:09 PM

You have a Denon 59AVI? And the XA2 is even better at upconverting SD DVD's? Wow!

Nope, but when we have our HT meets, we geeks get together and compare equipment (yes, we bring equipment from our own theaters along), audio titles, video titles etc. I am but one of four people (regular members) who have commented quite positively on the pic quality of the Toshiba units compared to the SD upconverting units out there (59AVI included).

David Susilo

01-05-07, 09:10 PM

You have a Denon 59AVI? And the XA2 is even better at upconverting SD DVD's? Wow!

I don't know about the XA2 but the A1 (yes, the old, decrepit, el-cheapo HD DVD player IS better than the 59AVI even on my also old, decrepit, el-cheapo Sony 46" CRT RPTV - ISF calibrated annually)

There are a couple of 59AVI users on this forum that have since put their 59AVI to their secondary viewing area since they bought the XA1.

Phloyd

01-05-07, 09:18 PM

6. cheaper than even the cheapest PS3

Sounds like cheapest is the right term. Especially with with the build quality, cosmetics and remote in need of attention per your post.

Ah well... it has been fun chatting - I guess I will have to visit LGE at CES and see these dual players... they might help to make things more amicable here.

Cheers!

David Susilo

01-05-07, 09:26 PM

Sounds like cheapest is the right term. Especially with with the build quality, cosmetics and remote in need of attention per your post.

Ah well... it has been fun chatting - I guess I will have to visit LGE at CES and see these dual players... they might help to make things more amicable here.

Cheers!

thanks for twisting my intent for the second time.

Cheapest? yes
Cheaply built? that's your interpretation.
having an option of a better-built machine doesn't mean the A2 is cheaply built
having an option of a better cosmetics doesn't mean the A2 looks like crud
having an option of a better remote doesn't mean the A2 comes with crud remote

in fact, PS3 remote is cruddier than the A2; if you like silver line in an all-black unit (a'la PS3) then A2 is your answer; if you don't need to get the absolute best-built (because you know you're like to be upgrading every year, like I do) then the A2 is the answer.

This is also the case with my neighbour. She's into BD but she refuses to spend anything more than the cheapest PS3 because she wants to see the lifespan of BD, wait for the winner, and if BD comes out as the winner she'll buy a 'proper' BD machine, if HD DVD comes out as the winner she'll buy a 'proper' HD DVD machine.

Cheers.

hrerikl

01-05-07, 09:53 PM

nataraj

01-05-07, 10:16 PM

I work for a company that makes 1080p display devices

Does your company take a side in the format war ?

Rob Tomlin

01-06-07, 12:17 AM

Nope, but when we have our HT meets, we geeks get together and compare equipment (yes, we bring equipment from our own theaters along), audio titles, video titles etc. I am but one of four people (regular members) who have commented quite positively on the pic quality of the Toshiba units compared to the SD upconverting units out there (59AVI included).

Doogie and David, my comments were meant as a joke.

Doogie's post made it sound like there was a player called the "Denon 59AVI". That is all.

Sorry my weak attempt at humor was apparently lost on everyone. :o

Phloyd

01-06-07, 01:16 AM

Does your company take a side in the format war ?
No. Though we are allowed to have opinions.

nataraj

01-06-07, 01:17 AM

No. Though we are allowed to have opinions.

Which display is that , anyway ?

BuGsArEtAsTy

01-06-07, 02:02 AM

Heh. People expounding the merits of 1080p are totally missing the point.

I can't believe people actually still talk about this in this context. 1080p is completely irrelevant to mass adoption of either format.

rnrgagne

01-06-07, 03:04 AM

It would have been interesting to read about the LG dual format player.

BuGsArEtAsTy

01-06-07, 03:13 AM

I think the term you are looking for is surpassed.

...PiP...
Hmmm... I've since learned that Blu-ray's The Descent doesn't actually have picture-in-picture support. It just plays back a second copy of the movie with a video commentary embedded in it.

David Susilo

01-06-07, 08:27 AM

Doogie and David, my comments were meant as a joke.

Doogie's post made it sound like there was a player called the "Denon 59AVI". That is all.

Sorry my weak attempt at humor was apparently lost on everyone. :o

yeah, my bad. It's supposed to be Pioneer, not Denon. The Denon I tested was the 2930 (?, can't remember the exact model number).

AV Doogie

01-06-07, 11:32 AM

Doogie and David, my comments were meant as a joke.

Doogie's post made it sound like there was a player called the "Denon 59AVI". That is all.

Sorry my weak attempt at humor was apparently lost on everyone. :o

Oops, typo... It was a Pioneer 59AVI not the Denon 5900 or 5910. Damn, whats the deal with the '59 anyhow.

David Susilo

01-06-07, 04:54 PM

Oops, typo... It was a Pioneer 59AVI not the Denon 5900 or 5910. Damn, whats the deal with the '59 anyhow.

That's what I want to know too. Other than the Oppo and the A1, there is not a single upconverting DVD player that's worth its salt.

Rob Tomlin

01-06-07, 05:05 PM

Oops, typo... It was a Pioneer 59AVI not the Denon 5900 or 5910. Damn, whats the deal with the '59 anyhow.
:confused:

What do you mean "what's the deal with the '59 anyhow"?

AV Doogie

01-06-07, 09:57 PM

:confused:

What do you mean "what's the deal with the '59 anyhow"?

as in why did pioneer use 59 and denon use 59 in the model number :p

Rob Tomlin

01-07-07, 12:25 AM

as in why did pioneer use 59 and denon use 59 in the model number :p

Ah. Denon's fault, as Pioneer used the 59 first! ;)

quikric

01-07-07, 07:23 AM

The question now is how much it will cost. Is a $999 player feasible? If yes, will significant number buy it?

Personally, I'd think a $499-699 hybrid player might get more interest from the general public. Ideally though, it should be $499 street for a hybrid (while HD DVD players are $399-449 street).
If only it were so. I'd snap one up in a heartbeat at $499!

BuGsArEtAsTy

01-07-07, 08:50 AM

If only it were so. I'd snap one up in a heartbeat at $499!
Yeah, so would a lot of people.

For me, I'd consider a combo Blu-ray/HD DVD player at $499 if it had the major bells and whistles and was good quality. Otherwise I'm not really interested. Thus, it seems like I'm going to be waiting a long while before I buy a standalone.

Maybe if I can get an A2 on closeout this year at $249 I'll consider that. (I got an A1 this year for less than that actually but I didn't like it so I returned it.) In the meantime I'll use my Xbox 360 add-on drive, but that has problems of its own.

AV Doogie

01-07-07, 12:22 PM

I think the LG player will be available at $999. This seems like a reasonable cost for a hybrid player at this time. Although many here don't think so. If the player performs well in reproducing both formats, it may sell . ???

efranzen

01-07-07, 12:31 PM

It's going to be $1199.

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8203311&type=product&productCategoryId=pcmcat87100050010&id=1165610378688

http://images.bestbuy.com/BestBuy_US/images/products/8203/8203311_sa.jpg

http://images.bestbuy.com/BestBuy_US/images/products/8203/8203311_ra.jpg

http://images.bestbuy.com/BestBuy_US/images/products/8203/8203311_ba.jpg

http://images.bestbuy.com/BestBuy_US/images/products/8203/8203311rca.jpg

KramerTC

01-07-07, 12:36 PM

Anyone else concerned with LG's quality? (sorry if it's been discussed earlier in the thread).

As a long time owner of the Zenith 318 and LG 418 I wouldn't touch this player given its brand at that price. $150ish for the std dvd player was ok. I knew what I was getting into but needed the upconversion functionality over component.

stevenmh

01-07-07, 12:38 PM

I can't help but be concerned with the quality with a stupid name like that.

Super Multi Blue Player ... how do they expect to be taken seriously? It sounds like a Pokemon toy.

Issac Hunt

01-07-07, 12:46 PM

Looks like a photoshop of last year's BD mockup. Anyone know if BestBuy have a history of posting items for sale then removing them later, the way Amazon do? Not all stores behave this way and I was wondering what BBs policy normaly is.

imdaly

01-07-07, 12:51 PM

So the Blu-ray/HD DVD combo player will sport a big-ass Blu-ray logo on the top of it without any mention of HD DVD??

Yeah, I agree with the above. This is a photoshopped pic.

Quadra

01-07-07, 12:53 PM

Check out the link I posted in this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=782608

You can clearly see both logos on top of the player.

bwclark

01-07-07, 12:56 PM

New Forum "Dual Format Players/Software" like now........ ;)

AV Doogie

01-07-07, 01:00 PM

Clearly, the player will have a similar chassis to the previous demoed unit. Additionally, LG did not use an English PR/marketing firm to decide upon the player verbage. The ads and verbage on the unit sound like a translation from Korean or something.

Issac Hunt

01-07-07, 01:01 PM

Check out the link I posted in this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=782608

You can clearly see both logos on top of the player.
Looks like they've changed the decals on the top of the player as well now! ;)

David Susilo

01-07-07, 01:02 PM

I'm sure I'm not alone with this thought.

$1200 for an LG? WTF?

imdaly

01-07-07, 01:07 PM

Wait...so the player doesn't support IHD completely??

No. Thanks.

bfdtv

01-07-07, 01:17 PM

Wait...so the player doesn't support IHD completely??Many iHD features are mandatory, it supports those. It's not yet clear what it doesn't support. Certainly, it supports all iHD features used on existing titles.

Thus far, LG has confirmed they have 1080p output, built-in decoding for Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD, and DTS-HD, and an ethernet port for software upgrades. Has anyone heard about 1080p24 output support on Blu-ray and/or HD-DVD? For me to spend $1199 on any player, it has got to have that.

Esox50

01-07-07, 01:41 PM

This just keeps getting better and better, as in ridiculous and funny. If everyone puts their format bias aside, wouldn't you think that for $1,200 (MSRP) you could do better than LG universal players with an HD-A2 $499 (MSRP), and one of the forthcoming 2G BD players $499-699 (expected MSRP) for the same cost?

HogPilot

01-07-07, 02:06 PM

Wow, I came to this thread hoping to find 6 pages of useful information about the new LG dual format player. You'd think that most people would be excited about any player capable of playing both formats (LG's quality issues aside).

Instead I find 5 1/2 pages of pedantic bickering and back and forth between BD and HD DVD die-hards, most of which is rife with inaccuracies, incomplete information, and falsehoods. I own an HD-A2 right now (excellent machine, regardless of the incessant whining you may see on here otherwise), and sometime within the next 6 months I'll buy either a BD player or a combo player. I entered the HD arena with HD DVD because it is much cheaper than BD to get started, and I was weary of some of the PQ issues I'd read and later seen with MPEG-2 encoded BDs. However, newer BD releases which use the VC-1 codec seem to have fixed that problem, and as soon as the price on BD or combo players comes down a bit, I'll invest in that format too.

Face it - if there will be a unified optical HD format, it won't make an appearance anytime soon. If you want the flexibility to own any movie title that you deem worthy of your collection, you WILL have to buy both HD DVDs and BDs. How you see fit to attain that goal is up to you. But please, don't bash the other guy just because he's doing what works for him.

The HD DVD/BD bickering has gotten beyond old on this board. The horse has been beaten beyond recognition, we all know that there's differences between the formats and that each has its benefits and drawbacks. Each individual who frequents and posts on this forum has his or her individual requirements as to what constitutes a "good" or "acceptable" format. Let's please move on from this insipid and decayed subject and make this thread a little more productive (and on topic, for that matter) for those who came looking for information about the LG dual format player.

Greg Black

01-07-07, 03:08 PM

I think I'd much rather have separates... At least a Toshiba HD-A2 and the new Samsung BD player, or a PS3.

LG sure makes some nifty washing machines, but I'm not so sure about a first gen universal HD disc player from them. The price tag just makes my lack of enthusiasm that much more.

Grubert

01-07-07, 04:04 PM

Analysis:

Strategy Analytics at CES: LG Throws Down the Gauntlet with Super Multi Blue Player

Move Benefits Blu-Ray, not HD-DVD, Say Analysts

BOSTON --(Business Wire)-- Jan. 7, 2007 LG's launch of the first dual-standard Blu-Ray Disc/HD-DVD player shifts the balance toward Blu-Ray Disc (BD) in the battle of the two formats, according to Strategy Analytics.
"Dual-standard players will help expand the market for next generation DVD players," says David Mercer, VP and Principal Analyst at Strategy Analytics. "But owners of the LG device will likely choose Blu-Ray over HD-DVD for the same title because the player does not support the full range of interactive features available on HD-DVD discs."

In spite of LG's launch, Strategy Analytics remains cautious on the future level of demand for standalone next generation DVD players. "Sales of standalone BD, HD-DVD and dual-standard players will be dwarfed by the millions of PS3s that will be sold worldwide during 2007," notes Mercer.

About Strategy Analytics

Strategy Analytics, Inc. - a global research and consulting firm - provides timely insights and strategic business solutions to companies operating at the convergence of information, communications and entertainment technologies. With worldwide headquarters in Boston, MA, and principal offices in England, France and Germany, Strategy Analytics focuses on market opportunities and challenges in the areas of Automotive Electronics & Multimedia, Digital Consumer, Wireless Strategies and Enabling Technologies. For more information, see http://www.strategyanalytics.com

HighDeff

01-07-07, 04:18 PM

BuGsArEtAsTy

01-07-07, 04:37 PM

So... $1199. That's what we were afraid of. :(

Analysis:Strategy Analytics at CES: LG Throws Down the Gauntlet with Super Multi Blue Player

Move Benefits Blu-Ray, not HD-DVD, Say Analysts

BOSTON --(Business Wire)-- Jan. 7, 2007 LG's launch of the first dual-standard Blu-Ray Disc/HD-DVD player shifts the balance toward Blu-Ray Disc (BD) in the battle of the two formats, according to Strategy Analytics.
"Dual-standard players will help expand the market for next generation DVD players," says David Mercer, VP and Principal Analyst at Strategy Analytics. "But owners of the LG device will likely choose Blu-Ray over HD-DVD for the same title because the player does not support the full range of interactive features available on HD-DVD discs."

In spite of LG's launch, Strategy Analytics remains cautious on the future level of demand for standalone next generation DVD players. "Sales of standalone BD, HD-DVD and dual-standard players will be dwarfed by the millions of PS3s that will be sold worldwide during 2007," notes Mercer.

About Strategy Analytics

Strategy Analytics, Inc. - a global research and consulting firm - provides timely insights and strategic business solutions to companies operating at the convergence of information, communications and entertainment technologies. With worldwide headquarters in Boston, MA, and principal offices in England, France and Germany, Strategy Analytics focuses on market opportunities and challenges in the areas of Automotive Electronics & Multimedia, Digital Consumer, Wireless Strategies and Enabling Technologies. For more information, see http://www.strategyanalytics.com
They sound misinformed.

I'd hazard to bet that all (or almost all) HDi features of available HD DVDs are supported.

P.S. Gizmodo (http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/home-entertainment/lg-press-event-super-multi-blue-blurayhd-dvd-player-1199-226710.php) has the best description of the LG booth: ;)
1080p LCDs/Plasmas playing Blu-ray movies of oil and water being poured onto high-definition semi-nude girls and vegetables. Lots and lots of vegetables.

Grubert

01-07-07, 04:41 PM

They sound misinformed.

I'd hazard to bet that all features of available HD DVDs are supported.

From cnet (http://news.com.com/2100-1041_3-6147875.html?part=rss&tag=2547-1_3-0-20&subj=news):

The player includes both red and blue laser diodes, which enables it to read all three disc formats. However, while users can take advantage of all the interactive features included on Blu-ray discs, it is currently limited to simply playing HD DVDs without their interactive functions, Ahn said.

BuGsArEtAsTy

01-07-07, 04:45 PM

The player includes both red and blue laser diodes, which enables it to read all three disc formats. However, while users can take advantage of all the interactive features included on Blu-ray discs, it is currently limited to simply playing HD DVDs without their interactive functions, Ahn said.
I stand corrected. That's majorly lame. (Well, it may be majorly lame, depending on what it means I guess.) Does that mean it cannot decode two separate video streams simultaneously? If that's the case that means it has the same limited functionality on both Blu-ray and HD DVD.

I'd really like to get clarification of the actual meaning of this though. That's a really half-assed implementation (esp. for a $1200 player) if it can't do say the the video commentary of Batman Begins on HD DVD.

JeffY

01-07-07, 04:45 PM

They probably got it the wrong way round, not that Blu-Ray discs have any interactive features anyway.

BuGsArEtAsTy

01-07-07, 05:03 PM

Well, I'm not so sure now. LG itself emphasized it doesn't have complete HD DVD interactive support.

They sure aren't doing themselves any favours. I'd rather get the Toshiba HD-A20 with 1080p60 and 1080p24 support for $599. That is if I were willing to spend $499+ on a player, which I'm not.

amillians

01-07-07, 05:39 PM

I think there's a lot of misinformation flying around: I just saw some CES commentary (not linkable) that indicated neither format's interactive layer (BD-J/HDi) would be supported.

?!!?

UxiSXRD

01-07-07, 05:41 PM

Someone should tell their CEO, who says it will have interactive support for BD but not HD-DVD. :p

miata

01-07-07, 05:41 PM

Maybe I'm too much of a Superbit kinda guy, but I would gladly sign up for a player that doesn't do any interactive stuff. I just want to watch movies. Hopefully, somebody will do some Superbit equivalent titles for HD.

UxiSXRD

01-07-07, 05:43 PM

The problem is that many of the discs will NOT play without that support (see the Tosh A1/XA1 with firmware prior to 2.0 and any U-control disc like King Kong, for example... or the Sony BDP-S1/Pioneer BD players with The Descent...).

miata

01-07-07, 05:44 PM

That sucks. Then maybe studios should not use that stuff.

bwclark

01-07-07, 05:45 PM

http://www.hometoys.com/news.php4?section=view&id=16371351

------------------------

LG ELECTRONICS UNVEILS NEW SUPER MULTI BLUE DUAL-FORMAT DRIVE AT INTERNATIONAL CES
For more info visit http://www.lge.com

Functioning as Blu-ray Disc Rewriter and HD DVD-ROM drive, Product Highlights LG's 2007 Optical Storage and Flash Ram Lines

LG ELECTRONICS UNVEILS NEW SUPER MULTI BLUE DUAL-FORMAT DRIVE AT INTERNATIONAL CES

Functioning as Blu-ray Disc Rewriter and HD DVD-ROM drive, Product Highlights LG's 2007 Optical Storage and Flash Ram Lines

LAS VEGAS, Jan. 7, 2007 – LG Electronics (LG), a leader in consumer electronics and mobile communications, today introduced Super Multi optical storage drives featuring enhanced flexibility for the next-generation DVD formats and security features at the 2007 International CES® (Booth #8214, Central Hall, Las Vegas Convention Center).
Key products from LG - the largest optical storage manufacturer in the world and the leading drive supplier in the U.S. - include the groundbreaking “Super Multi Blue” Blu-ray Disc Rewriter and HD DVD-ROM Drive (GGW-H10N) and the new Super Multi DVD Rewriter with Security Function featuring “SecurDisc”™ technology co-developed with Nero®.

THE NEXT GENERATION OF OPTICAL STORAGE
LG offers flexibility to consumers in the next generation in optical disc drives. The GGW-H10N is compatible with both Blu-ray Discs and HD-DVD formats. The Super Multi Blue drive is compatible with Blu-ray Disc, DVD, CD read/write and HD-DVD-ROM (read), offering consumers with the most universal unit available.
The GGW-H10N can record up to 50GB of data, equivalent to 4-1/2 hours of high-definition video or 22 hours or standard definition video (on a dual layer 50GB BD-R/BD-RE recordable media). Surpassing the market standard, LG is providing a 4x recording speed of Blu-ray Discs, which means that it takes only 23-24 minutes to burn a full single layer BD-R disc (25GB), compared with 46-47 minutes for conventional 2x recording.
The product will be released during the first quarter of 2007, priced under US $1,200. The core technologies of Super Multi Blue Drive are Optical Pickup* technology, which supports Blu-ray disc write/playback, HD DVD playback and DVD/CD write/playback, as well as the system controlling the Optical Pickup securely and effectively. All of these are LG’s proprietary technologies. (Optical Pickup is the device reading and storing data by converting the code of the light reflected by an optical disc to electric code.)
The LG-developed Optical Pickup is the world’s first device supporting both Blu-ray disc write/playback, HD DVD playback, which proves the company’s unsurpassed technology in the optical storage field.
Super Multi Blue, also available from LG in the first dual-format high-definition disc player (model BH-100) available in early 2007, is expected to end customers’ confusion caused by the format war between Blu-ray disc and HD DVD and promote the growth of next-generation DVD market. (See separate news release.)

A NEW LEVEL OF SECURITY
Using SecurDisc technology co-developed with Nero, LG new Super Multi DVD Rewriter with Security Function meets the demand for enhanced features to enable secure data protection and content access control when writing data on CD and DVD formats. While some optical disc drives support password encryption as the only security function, LG new drive with Security Function offers multiple features to protect a disc at the user and storage level:
• Password Encryption – Protects user data against unauthorized access through password protection
• Disc Creator Authentication – A digital signature is applied to all data to allow recipients to verify data authenticity
• Integrity Checker – Detects altered data through checksums to verify data integrity and readability
• Data Insurance – Increases data reliability through redundantly stored data
LG’s DVD Rewriter with Security Function provides both professional and private users with the means necessary to protect and share data securely.

ADDITIONAL INTERNAL AND EXTERNAL PRODUCTS
Other LG external and internal optical disc drives showcased at CES 2007 include:
Internal
• GSA-H42N – This internal drive has a writing speed of 18x DVD+R and DVD-R
• GSA-H42L –This internal drive has a writing speed of 18x DVD+R and DVD-R. Further the unit is incorporates LightScribe, direct disc labeling technology
• GSA-H30N – The Internal Super Multi features Serial ATA interface

External
• GSA-E30N – This external drive has a writing speed of 18x DVD+R and DVD-R
• GSA-E30L – This external drive has 18x DVD+R and DVD-R write speeds, one of the highest speeds on the market. Further the unit is incorporates LightScribe, direct disc labeling technology
• GSA-E50L – This slim portable external drive integrates USB BUS Power, with an AC adapter for high speed. The unit has up to 8x DVD+R and DVD-R write speeds in addition to 8.5GB double layer recording
• GSA-T10N – The internal Slim Super Multi features a writing speed of 8x DVD+R and DVD-R
• GSA-U10N – The internal Slim Super Multi - Ultra Slim drive features a writing speed of 8x DVD+R and DVD-R

FLASH RAM
In addition to its optical storage drives, LG also showcased its cutting-edge Mini Retractable – Chocolate Style Flash RAM USB drive. Building on LG’s popular Chocolate design, this retractable Flash RAM USB Drive is compact, stylish and a great tool for anyone in need of an external storage device. The ‘Chocolate design’ is a sleek, ultra thin minimalist style and silky-
smooth design created by LG earlier this year. With no cap to lose, it features storage capacities ranging from 1GB to 2GB, and features a red eye LED to let you know when it is working. Additionally, there is added security with the password lock feature.

-30-

ABOUT LG ELECTRONICS USA, INC.
Based in Englewood Cliffs, N.J., LG Electronics USA, Inc., (LGEUS) is the North American subsidiary of LG Electronics, Inc., a $43.4-billion global force in consumer electronics, home appliances and mobile communications. In the United States, LGEUS sells a wide range of digital display and digital media products, digital appliances and mobile phones under LG’s “Life’s Good” marketing theme. For more information, please visit www.LGusa.com.

ABOUT LG ELECTRONICS, INC.
LG Electronics, Inc. (KSE: 06657.KS) is a global leader and technology innovator in consumer electronics, home appliances and mobile communications, employing more than 72,000 people working in over 120 operations including 80 subsidiaries around the world. Comprising four business units -- Mobile Communications, Digital Appliance, Digital Display and Digital Media with 2005 global consolidated sales of US $43.4 billion -- LG Electronics is the world’s largest producer of CDMA handsets, residential air conditioners, plasma panels, optical storage products, DVD players and home theater systems. For more information please visit www.lge.com.

CONTACTS:
John I. Taylor (847) 941-8181, jtaylor@lge.com
Chris Neff (201) 816-2241, cneff@lge.com
Brent Tongco (773) 454-2148, brent.tongco@ogilvypr.com

Nero® and SecurDisc™ are trademarks of Nero AG and its subsidiaries.

los seres

01-07-07, 05:48 PM

Here's some more pics and info on the player!
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20070108/ces3_02.jpg
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20070108/ces3_03.jpg
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20070108/ces3_04.jpg
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20070108/ces3_05.jpg

nataraj

01-07-07, 05:48 PM

I think there's a lot of misinformation flying around: I just saw some CES commentary (not linkable) that indicated neither format's interactive layer (BD-J/HDi) would be supported.

?!!?

According to the press release posted here http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9386085&&#post9386085

In addition to offering Full HD 1080p picture quality from high-definition discs, the player incorporates interactive functions based on BD-Java, which allows advanced menus and functions to be displayed over the video of Blu-ray discs. And, while the same level of advanced menu interactivity is not available while playing HD DVD discs, the powerful combination of Blu-ray Disc and HD DVD audio-video playback technologies is like no other on the market.

los seres

01-07-07, 05:50 PM

Part 2
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20070108/ces3_06.jpg
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20070108/ces3_07.jpg
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20070108/ces3_08.jpg
Link Translated (http://www.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.watch.impress.co.jp%2Fav%2Fdocs %2F20070108%2Fces03.htm&langpair=ja%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF8)
HDMI 1.2
1080P 24/30
1080i60
Opitical digital outout
5.1 Analog output
uses a Broadcom Chip
VC-1,H.264,Mpeg2
DD+,DTS HD,True HD

BuGsArEtAsTy

01-07-07, 06:08 PM

People say it was playing the Batman Begins HD DVD.

Did it play the video commentary too?

BioSehnsucht

01-07-07, 06:13 PM

Part 2
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20070108/ces3_06.jpg

*pulls on the asbestos suit*

Looks like they're favoring HD-DVD in their advertising there.. blu ray only on the BR side, HD-DVD both on the HD side and in the middle :D

Odd however that they are not claiming HDi capability, which fails it as a HD-DVD player right there. I don't see why they couldn't implement HDi via Java to use their existing SoC, it'd just be really slow, and of course they'd need HW decode for second stream supported..

I wonder what all their Broadcom chip can do.

David Susilo

01-07-07, 06:14 PM

everything aside, I personally absolutely loathe interactivity. I want to be able to plop a movie down, press play, then park my ass and watch the flick.

David Susilo

01-07-07, 06:16 PM

*pulls on the asbestos suit*

Looks like they're favoring HD-DVD in their advertising there.. blu ray only on the BR side, HD-DVD both on the HD side and in the middle :D

aren't the ones in the middle are available on both formats?

BuGsArEtAsTy

01-07-07, 06:17 PM

everything aside, I personally absolutely loathe interactivity. I want to be able to plop a movie down, press play, then park my ass and watch the flick.
...which you can do whether or not support for interactivity is there.

P.S. I see they're using the normal HD DVD logo in that pic.

BioSehnsucht

01-07-07, 06:22 PM

aren't the ones in the middle are available on both formats?
Yeah, and if they wanted to be neutral they could have split the cover images with Blu Blue on the left and HD-DVD Red on the right (i.e. take both versions, split down the middle and merged) to keep with the bLu on the Left and Red on the Right theme.

But they didn't.. that can't be an oversight, can it?

But again if they can't really support HD-DVD, this is even weirder.

BuGsArEtAsTy

01-07-07, 06:24 PM

Yeah, and if they wanted to be neutral they could have split the cover images with Blu Blue on the left and HD-DVD Red on the right (i.e. take both versions, split down the middle and merged) to keep with the bLu on the Left and Red on the Right theme.

But they didn't.. that can't be an oversight, can it?

But again if they can't really support HD-DVD, this is even weirder.
Meh. Stop reading too much into this. They're just plastic boxes after all.

David Susilo

01-07-07, 06:42 PM

But they didn't.. that can't be an oversight, can it?

I've worked with some of these people (not LG specifically, but many other major companies' copywriters) and you won't believe how much oversight there can be unless you experience it yourself.

csmith75

01-07-07, 07:52 PM

Looks aren't everything, but man....that player is butt ugly. Looks like something from the 80's.

Greg Black

01-07-07, 08:11 PM

Everything about that player is ugly.

- Ugly design.
- Ugly lack of features.
- Ugly price.

bwclark

01-07-07, 09:14 PM

Thank God mine will be behind a cabinet door......but it will be mine! :p

And as long as it does what it is supposed to do that is all that counts for me..................I'm there baby! :D

Bring one to Daddy and like now........ :cool:

Rob Zuber

01-07-07, 09:22 PM

Weird, wild stuff. It seems clear that this thing is really a Blu-Ray player, with a bit of laser magic to allow the reading of HD-DVD, but without the commitment to actually support the HD-DVD spec.

Anyone want to start a poll to see who wants to buy this thing? It's only $1200. :D

BuGsArEtAsTy

01-07-07, 09:22 PM

Confirmed. The LG combo player is braindead: (http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1895,2079911,00.asp)

"The BH100 fully supports the features of the BD format including Blu-ray Disc Java, allowing for full use of interactive and other features that may be included with a BD movie. Unfortunately, the BH100's HD DVD interactive feature support is non-existent as the format's iHD technology is not supported. While the BH100 appeared to play HD DVD movies just fine, popup menus appeared quite generic as the on-screen chapter selection lacked the thumbnail images seen on other HD DVD players."

Anyone want to start a poll to see who wants to buy this thing? It's only $1200. :D
Heh. I guess the silver lining for LG is that it's still cheaper than the Sony and the Pioneer. :rolleyes:

krinkle

01-07-07, 09:25 PM

Great news for Blu-ray :)

BuGsArEtAsTy

01-07-07, 09:33 PM

So it seems now the ideal situation still is to buy two separate players. eg. Toshiba HD-A2 or HD-A20, and the new Samsung (unless it sucks).

efjay

01-07-07, 09:40 PM

Confirmed. The LG combo player is braindead: (http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1895,2079911,00.asp)

"The BH100 fully supports the features of the BD format including Blu-ray Disc Java, allowing for full use of interactive and other features that may be included with a BD movie. Unfortunately, the BH100's HD DVD interactive feature support is non-existent as the format's iHD technology is not supported. While the BH100 appeared to play HD DVD movies just fine, popup menus appeared quite generic as the on-screen chapter selection lacked the thumbnail images seen on other HD DVD players."

I wonder if this will be an unofficial HD DVD player as HDi is part of the HD DVD spec, right?

krinkle

01-07-07, 09:49 PM

I wonder if this will be an unofficial HD DVD player as HDi is part of the HD DVD spec, right?

Yep thats what it looks like. The player supports the full Blu-ray spec but not the full HD-DVD spec.

Seems like really this is LG's Blu-ray player with some HD-DVD functionality tacked on.

UxiSXRD

01-07-07, 10:02 PM

Heh. I guess the silver lining for LG is that it's still cheaper than the Sony and the Pioneer. :rolleyes:

Did you mean the Panasonic? The Sony has a lower MSRP than this new LG...

pcrx

01-07-07, 10:02 PM

After 189 posts I finally read that this player is DOA for me - no matter what the price tag.

BuGsArEtAsTy

01-07-07, 10:16 PM

Did you mean the Panasonic? The Sony has a lower MSRP than this new LG...
I stand corrected.

HogPilot

01-07-07, 11:03 PM

Well, despite LG's inadequte implementation of true HD DVD support in this new machine, I am nevertheless happy to see the direction they've taken. Yes, I agree with others - from what we've seen it almost appears that they yanked their BD player from the LG show in Florida a couple months ago so they could slap in some basic HD DVD support and release it as a dual format player.

Hopefully this will spur other big name electronics manufacturers to start looking in the same direction, since neither of the optical HD formats seems to be overtaking the other with any alacrity. If companies such as Oppo and Denon released a true dual format player with full support for both formats, I would be banging down their doors trying to get on the pre-order list. For now, I guess I'll have to make due with my HD-A2 and be patient. At least this will give me time to build up my BD collection so I have plenty to watch once I get a capable player :)

BuGsArEtAsTy

01-08-07, 12:58 AM

I wonder if they could firmware update it to support full HD DVD, or if they'll wait for their next generation of players.

moore

01-08-07, 02:12 AM

Happy Smile Super Challenge Family Wish Player! :)

HogPilot

01-08-07, 09:01 AM

Happy Smile Super Challenge Family Wish Player! :)

This player super number one ok!

BuGsArEtAsTy

01-08-07, 09:10 AM

Amir sez (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9391914&&#post9391914) that if he remembers correctly, a player that uses the HD DVD logo must be HD DVD compliant within 90 days of its actual release date. The LG combo player in its current form is definitely not HD DVD compliant, even though it seems to be able to play the actual video of HD DVD titles.

So, if LG released this player say March 30 with the HD DVD logo, it'd have to be HD DVD compliant by the end of June.

Is the LG sporting the correct HD DVD logo at this time? There seems to be some debate on this, and I can't tell from the few pix I've seen. They did use the correct HD DVD logo in the presentation materials though.

EDIT:

Oops. I guess I missed this pic that was posted earlier. Yes, it seems to be the correct logo as far as I can tell:

http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20070108/ces3_04.jpg

http://img.engadget.com/common/images/3060000000047268.JPG

Either LG is going to have to update their player, or else it's going to have to remove the HD DVD logo.

los seres

01-10-07, 01:43 PM

While the BH100 appeared to play HD DVD movies just fine, popup menus appeared quite generic as the on-screen chapter selection lacked the thumbnail images seen on other HD DVD players."
This is the generic menu that appears for HD DVDs.
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20070110/rt23_01.jpg

RTBrandy

01-10-07, 04:30 PM

i CAN LIVE WITH THAT...

I'm much more concerned with visual quality and movie SELECTION, than I am with the menu features...

David Susilo

01-10-07, 08:38 PM

so we can't access special features etc? This player should not bear an HD DVD logo.

Head Shot

01-10-07, 09:08 PM

so we can't access special features etc? This player should not bear an HD DVD logo.

Does this player have ethernet port?, because its another mandatory requirement.

amillians

01-11-07, 09:27 AM

News on this from CED today, responding to MSFT's questioning LG's ability to call this puppy an HD DVD player:

LG spokesman John Taylor told us his company was aware of the HD DVD specs, wasn’t calling the BH100 an “HD DVD player” and didn’t expect certification for that format’s logo. The BH100 is essentially a Blu-ray player with basic HD DVD-ROM movie playback as a value-added function, he said.

This unit cannot, and will not, be called an HD DVD player. It is a machine that just so happens to be able to play HD DVD movies.

samiam95124

01-11-07, 04:11 PM

Does this player have ethernet port?, because its another mandatory requirement.

Yes (verified by looking at the back of it).

Scott Moore

miata

01-11-07, 04:25 PM

I just hope this thing still materializes. I just got an HD-A1 that plays HD DVDs, but I am not going to make any significant HD DVD title purchases until I have assurances that there will be a broad selection of reasonably priced dual format players for me to play them on in the future.

RTBrandy

01-12-07, 09:36 AM

Is there a downside to this product that I'm missing?

madshi

01-12-07, 09:56 AM

Is there a downside to this product that I'm missing?
Yes:

(1) It doesn't do HD DVD interactive content.
(2) It's probably not cheaper than buying a seperate HD DVD and Blu-Ray standalone.

However, I'm still happy about this and I hope LG will continue with its plans, as the 2nd gen player from LG could be useful. Furthermore, *if* they continue this way, other manufacturers might be forced in the middle term to also go dual format.

miata

01-12-07, 12:20 PM

Yes:

(1) It doesn't do HD DVD interactive content.
(2) It's probably not cheaper than buying a seperate HD DVD and Blu-Ray standalone.

However, I'm still happy about this and I hope LG will continue with its plans, as the 2nd gen player from LG could be useful. Furthermore, *if* they continue this way, other manufacturers might be forced in the middle term to also go dual format.

(1) I think there are many people like me who would wish that the fancy interactive features would just go away. I buy a disk to watch a movie -- not to experience somebodies programming creativity. Some of the menu systems like those on the Star Wars DVDs just drive me crazy.

(2) Having a single device is a huge benefit. One set of connections (especially important for audio analog outs for HD soundtracks), one remote to program, one sytem to calibrate, one set of settings, one manual, one less thing to have to train the rest of the family on.

In my mind the single biggest issue with this LG player is the price. A big question mark is the SD DVD PQ and AQ. I really do want a single device.

madshi

01-12-07, 03:33 PM

(1) I think there are many people like me who would wish that the fancy interactive features would just go away. I buy a disk to watch a movie -- not to experience somebodies programming creativity. Some of the menu systems like those on the Star Wars DVDs just drive me crazy.
Basically I've not been a big fan of interactivity yet, either. However, what happens if some discs don't play at all without HDi support? That could happen, after all HDi is mandatory.

(2) Having a single device is a huge benefit. One set of connections (especially important for audio analog outs for HD soundtracks), one remote to program, one sytem to calibrate, one set of settings, one manual, one less thing to have to train the rest of the family on.

In my mind the single biggest issue with this LG player is the price. A big question mark is the SD DVD PQ and AQ. I really do want a single device.
I do agree with that.

nataraj

01-12-07, 03:38 PM

I think the most significant point of this device is that we will get to see a universal drive commercially produced.

Once that happens, good universal players is just a matter of time ...

BuGsArEtAsTy

01-12-07, 03:43 PM

I think the most significant point of this device is that we will get to see a universal drive commercially produced.

Once that happens, good universal players is just a matter of time ...
This has already been announced by LG.

The good thing is that it fully supports all of HDi when used with the appropriate Windows software (obviously).

Grubert

01-12-07, 04:05 PM

Cover image on a French site for this story:

http://www.dvdrama.com/une/une20070112c.jpg

;)

miata

01-12-07, 04:30 PM

Basically I've not been a big fan of interactivity yet, either. However, what happens if some discs don't play at all without HDi support? That could happen, after all HDi is mandatory.
I just hope somebody compiles a list of titles to avoid.

mlang46

01-13-07, 02:32 PM

I just want to watch movies and have access to as much content as possible and I have enough electronic boxes in my house with my stereo and projector to open up a mini Radio-shack so everything in a single box is a real advantage.

I have no dog in the format fight eexcept to say I hope it just goes away quickly. when I first looked at hidefinition DVDs I looked at blue ray and was disappointed in the Image quality. I viewed the Fifth element and was disappointed with the quality. I looked at some HD/dvd movies and was blown away by the image quality so I was Planning on buying an HD/DVD player probably the third gen Toshiba

But with the LG universal player I now have access to twice the content and for the most part I do not care about the interactive features most of which are self indulgent exercises created by the director and proffesional critics.

the important point to realize is that content is king. I can take the cheapest 720P dlp projector and compare it to the most expensive 3 chip 1080P projector on the market . If I feed the 720p projector with a HIdef source of good quality it will look better than the most expensive 3 chip projector fed with a DVD source and it would not even be close.

I rent all my movies from Net flix. Given the value added , What I paid for my amplifiers , projection screen , speakers, curtains, Sim projector. ect. What do I care if a universal player
costs 1200 dollars. It is the most important value added component in the system after the actual movies themselves.