If I missed a thread about this, sorry. I did search for it. This is very interesting news. Almost as interesting as the LG universal player.

Movie studio Warner Bros. will next week unveil an optical disc format capable of being played in both HD DVD and Blu-ray Disc (BD) machines, the company has revealed.

http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2007/01/04/warners_readies_total_hd_disc/

This could be why I've seen that Warner has been seeming to be holding back releases in '07.

oh man.....this freaking sucks.....


i am so sick and tired of this horse crap..... please just pick a format and stop making new ones

oh man.....this freaking sucks.....

i am so sick and tired of this horse crap..... please just pick a format and stop making new ones
It's not a new format. It's two formats combined on one disc.

Personally I don't see this taking off. The rumoured (again) new LG hybrid player (http://avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=780486) has a bigger potential to succeed IMO.

why wouldn't it do well? No need to decide between blue and HD-DVD, only whether or not you want the movie. Sounds great to me.

why wouldn't it do well? No need to decide between blue and HD-DVD, only whether or not you want the movie. Sounds great to me.
Cost.

But at what cost? Seems like they intend the disc to be more expensive than either BD or HD-DVD (and which HD-DVD, a solo or a combo disc?). Does this thing play in either a HD-DVD or BD player, or does it just have enough capacity to hold both versions to be played in a third player? That means it could theoretically hold 80 gigs of info, right? Maybe it is a disc that both players could read, but only has 30-50 gigs of space so it is in a sense a third format that is backwards compatible to BD and HD-DVD.

What's the point? If Warner is trying to save money on disc production, save money on advertising, and end the format war with this move, then wouldn't just going Blu-ray exclusive pretty much do the same thing?

What's the point? If Warner is trying to save money on disc production, save money on advertising, and end the format war with this move, then wouldn't just going Blu-ray exclusive pretty much do the same thing?
To save money, they'd be better off going HD DVD exclusive, since HD DVD stamping reportedly costs a bit less than Blu-ray.

And with the announcement of the LG hybrid player, that would actually be feasible.

The description in the article says that the disc contains "an HD-DVD layer over a Blu-Ray layer".

Doesn't that imply a 15gb layer for HD-DVD and a 25gb layer for Blu-Ray? If so, that would be rather weak.

Most likely the article is just wrong or not very clear (at least I hope so).

All in all, though, I think that dual-format players are the way to go.

why wouldn't it do well? No need to decide between blue and HD-DVD, only whether or not you want the movie. Sounds great to me.
Yes, but it's still up to the studios' discretion to release on this or not. It would only help the format nuetral studios by cutting their costs. Studios like Universal, Sony, and Fox would still only put out in only their chosen format.

Now the universal player from LG... now that puts the power in the hands of the consumer. The studios and exclusive CE's can have their stupid little war.

There is consumer resistance to the HD formats due to cost. If people here are upset at paying more for an HD DVD combo disc then I would think most would not wish to pay more for a disc that plays both HD DVD and BD when they only have one player. If you had both an HD DVD and BD player why would this help you - just added cost. I think Warner is completely out to lunch on this one. I am not willing to pay more for something I can't use.

Cheers,

Grant

What about a scenario that Warner ONLY release HD titles on Total HD media?
They could decide to only release The Matrix on Total HD for example - would you buy then? I would but I think we need to wait for more facts and see what the capacity of the layers will be and whether they are flippers. Another scenario - say it is a flipper and had HD-30 on one side and BD-25 on the other. Newline decide to release the Lord of the Rings trilogy on Total HD only. The consumer will buy it without fear of choosing wrongly. Media sells the formats.

What about a scenario that Warner ONLY release HD titles on Total HD media?
They could decide to only release The Matrix on Total HD for example - would you buy then? I would but I think we need to wait for more facts and see what the capacity of the layers will be and whether they are flippers. Another scenario - say it is a flipper and had HD-30 on one side and BD-25 on the other. Newline decide to release the Lord of the Rings trilogy on Total HD only. The consumer will buy it without fear of choosing wrongly. Media sells the formats.

I wouldn't buy it, regardless of what they do.

What about a scenario that Warner ONLY release HD titles on Total HD media?
They could decide to only release The Matrix on Total HD for example - would you buy then? I would but I think we need to wait for more facts and see what the capacity of the layers will be and whether they are flippers. Another scenario - say it is a flipper and had HD-30 on one side and BD-25 on the other. Newline decide to release the Lord of the Rings trilogy on Total HD only. The consumer will buy it without fear of choosing wrongly. Media sells the formats.
Depends on the cost and the quality.

As for cost, our experience with combo HD DVD/DVD discs has suggested that cost will not be low.

Anything above US$25 is too expensive. The only reason I'm getting Fearless (which is more than US$25 for the combo) is because I'm getting it as a gift.

Folks this isn't rocket science.

Total HD is absolutely complementary to Universal players.

Even if Uni players become popular the single platform players will always be
cheaper and thus have the majority of overall sales. Thus the studios are stuck with either supporting both formats in perpetuity and keeping multiple version of the same movie or supporting one format and losing potential millions in opportunity.

Total HD allows studios and retailers to stock on SKU to cover 3 distinct platforms. That's a value prop. They know they are covering the widest range of consumers with this product and the extra costs are warranted.

Warner will have to allay fears that the production of these discs is too expensive because it certainly sounds expensive. My guess is they use DL30GB and SL25GB BD ROM. Most BD movies are SL25 anyways and they seem to look just fine.

Folks this isn't rocket science.

Total HD is absolutely complementary to Universal players.

Even if Uni players become popular the single platform players will always be
cheaper and thus have the majority of overall sales. Thus the studios are stuck with either supporting both formats in perpetuity and keeping multiple version of the same movie or supporting one format and losing potential millions in opportunity.

Total HD allows studios and retailers to stock on SKU to cover 3 distinct platforms. That's a value prop. They know they are covering the widest range of consumers with this product and the extra costs are warranted.

Warner will have to allay fears that the production of these discs is too expensive because it certainly sounds expensive. My guess is they use DL30GB and SL25GB BD ROM. Most BD movies are SL25 anyways and they seem to look just fine.
Extra costs for these discs aren't warranted, once hybrid players are available.

Dumb idea - and I loathe dual sided DVD's more than anything. LAME LAME LAME LAME LAME. Warner you read this? LAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If this is to be that case I will swear off buying movies forever and just rent from now on. I have bought less and less movies as time goes on anyway, so this would be the last nail in the coffin for that.

Folks this isn't rocket science.

Total HD is absolutely complementary to Universal players.

Even if Uni players become popular the single platform players will always be
cheaper and thus have the majority of overall sales. Thus the studios are stuck with either supporting both formats in perpetuity and keeping multiple version of the same movie or supporting one format and losing potential millions in opportunity.

Total HD allows studios and retailers to stock on SKU to cover 3 distinct platforms. That's a value prop. They know they are covering the widest range of consumers with this product and the extra costs are warranted.

Warner will have to allay fears that the production of these discs is too expensive because it certainly sounds expensive. My guess is they use DL30GB and SL25GB BD ROM. Most BD movies are SL25 anyways and they seem to look just fine.

I disagree. I will never buy "Total HD." I want only BD 50s and I want all the disc space utilized for single format video and audio.

People already hate paying more for the combos because they don't need the SD version of a film... I can only imagine the hate from people on both sides of this format war will be spewing out over paying more for a format they don't want to be included on a disc they do want. Looks like AVS has no chance at all to turn into a friendly forum again.

Extra costs for these discs aren't warranted, once hybrid players are available.

The value prop here is with the studios and retailers. But I agree Warner cannot price themselves out of the ballpark here.

Dumb idea - and I loathe dual sided DVD's more than anything. LAME LAME LAME LAME LAME. Warner you read this? LAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why are you assuming this is a dual sided disc? The data layers of each respective format sit at different levels below the surface. HD DVD is .6mm and Blu-ray is .1mm. The layer of Blu-ray is very thin to allow the laser to peer through to the next layer. I think Total HD is going to be a single sided disc.


I disagree. I will never buy "Total HD." I want only BD 50s and I want all the disc space utilized for single format video and audio.

Ahhh the Mythical Man-Month. Keep tossing more resources at a problem and hope things improve.

It'll be interesting to see if Warner eats their own dogfood here and makes all new releases by end of 2007 Total HD.

People already hate paying more for the combos because they don't need the SD version of a film... I can only imagine the hate from people on both sides of this format war will be spewing out over paying more for a format they don't want to be included on a disc they do want. Looks like AVS has no chance at all to turn into a friendly forum again.

Yes the same people gladly sucking up combo priced Fox BD titles. The irony is thick and the assumption always pejorative here.

We're talking about a potential her for economies of scale. If Warner is to dedicate their offerings to Total HD they'd be pressing millions of discs by end of 2008. Their marketing dollars are cut in half as well since they simply market HD... "Buy once...run anywhere"

People aren't seeing the forrest through the trees here.

What's the point? If Warner is trying to save money on disc production, save money on advertising, and end the format war with this move, then wouldn't just going Blu-ray exclusive pretty much do the same thing?

What's the point? If Warner is trying to save money on disc production, save money on advertising, and end the format war with this move, then wouldn't just going HD DVD exclusive pretty much do the same thing?

Yes the same people gladly sucking up combo priced Fox BD titles. The irony is thick and the assumption always pejorative here.

We're talking about a potential her for economies of scale. If Warner is to dedicate their offerings to Total HD they'd be pressing millions of discs by end of 2008. Their marketing dollars are cut in half as well since they simply market HD... "Buy once...run anywhere"

People aren't seeing the forrest through the trees here.

Yes, it would get cheaper so cost would no longer be the issue. The only thing is the capacity layers. I take it a BD-50 and HD-30 non flipper is not possible?

Recent reviews of BD titles show that studios are just as capable delivering high quality (see Covenant) on SL25GB as the studios are with BD50.

I'm anxiously awaiting Warner's announcement ..I do believe a all DL Total HD disc would be difficult to manufacture.

Recent reviews of BD titles show that studios are just as capable delivering high quality (see Covenant) on SL25GB as the studios are with BD50.



I don't agree with your assessment. To me, all it shows is that no studio has yet exploited the BD50's capacity.

Yes, it would get cheaper so cost would no longer be the issue. The only thing is the capacity layers. I take it a BD-50 and HD-30 non flipper is not possible?

This was my thought. This would make all movies flippers. Add to that - why not put the SD DVD version on too for all the folks who are just NOW getting DVD players (yes they do exist) and you have a crammed mess on a flipper disc. Lame. I have hated flippers for years and don't see any reason to buy them. If this were to become the norm I would likely wind up buying only those movies I really really really wanted and rent the rest. Maybe wait for a software method to come out to rip one or the other onto a computer and burn my own single sided copy.

This was my thought. This would make all movies flippers. Add to that - why not put the SD DVD version on too for all the folks who are just NOW getting DVD players (yes they do exist) and you have a crammed mess on a flipper disc. Lame. I have hated flippers for years and don't see any reason to buy them. If this were to become the norm I would likely wind up buying only those movies I really really really wanted and rent the rest. Maybe wait for a software method to come out to rip one or the other onto a computer and burn my own single sided copy.

I don't like flippers either. It's a shame both DL's can't be on the same side easily. That would finish the format war.

I don't agree with your assessment. To me, all it shows is that no studio has yet exploited the BD50's capacity.

Because that's atypical to the production/distribution trend.

You want your editing format to be plumped full and fat for editing and manipulating but your final distribution format needs to be svelte yet still powerful. Your assumption again is that you're "missing" something unless you have a maxed out disc. When I watch King Kong in HD I know I'm not missing much at all.

I guess that that the format could employ two Blu-ray layers (BD-50) above a 30Gb HD-DVD layer or it could be a flipper. (Ugh! I like labels I can read without glasses)

It would inevitably cost more to produce and require new up-front capital investments in the pressing plants. It would still require royalty payments for the Blu-ray and HD-DVD layers in addition to additional new royalties to Warner.

On the other hand it would reduce inventory costs to both the studios and the stocking distributors and retailers.

And it could prolong the format war indefinintely since it would make it very difficult to tell who is winning?

Inevitably, though, it would increase the costs of high definition discs and I've no doubt the added costs would be passed on to the consumer. I, for one, don't see why I should pay more for a second format that I will not use?

There will be no winner in this war. There will be a loser though. Consumers unless something is done.

Because that's atypical to the production/distribution trend.

You want your editing format to be plumped full and fat for editing and manipulating but your final distribution format needs to be svelte yet still powerful. Your assumption again is that you're "missing" something unless you have a maxed out disc. When I watch King Kong in HD I know I'm not missing much at all.

I'm not you. I want the full capacity utilized, and I will reject Total HD, like most other people will do.

Understatement of the year. I actually at least attempt to critically evaluate a product before slamming or praising it.

I wonder what color the cases will be?

purple?

I wonder if any titles will be announced on this format next week?

What's the point? If Warner is trying to save money on disc production, save money on advertising, and end the format war with this move, then wouldn't just going HD DVD exclusive pretty much do the same thing?

My original statements weren't really a potshot at HD DVD, they were just common sense. If only Universal, Paramount, and Weinstein were left supporting HD DVD, Blu-ray would win. If it was Universal, Weinstein, and Warners (exclusively) against Sony, Disney, Fox, and Lions Gate (exclusively), it would pretty much even things up and the format war would go on.

This "solution" make no sense, except for retailers.

If I'm HD-DVD, and I am, I don't want a blur-ray copy of the movie on the same disc. Ditto, if I own Blur-ray. Both this disc and "universal" players will be pricey for some time to come--in my opinion. By the time the cost of the players comes down, there will be no need for this bright idea! :confused:

This "solution" make no sense, except for retailers.

If I'm HD-DVD, and I am, I don't want a blur-ray copy of the movie on the same disc. Ditto, if I own Blur-ray. Both this disc and "universal" players will be pricey for some time to come--in my opinion. By the time the cost of the players comes down, there will be no need for this bright idea! :confused:

Yes low cost Universal players are great for consumers but it doesn't ameliorate the studio/retailer SKU issues. I'm ok with having a benefit for me and seeing the studios deliver something that is beneficial to them as long as my costs aren't too high.

I rather like the idea of buying a movie and knowing I can go over to a friends house with Blu-ray and playing back the movie. My fear is that we get only single layers of each format which wouldn't be cool. I'd prefer to see 30GB/25GB at a minimum.

Authoring to the lowest common denominator would be a bad thing IMHO. Whether it is 15, 25 or even 30. They should max out the bitrate on any format they release on.

Can't say I see a need for this format.

I can see some advantages from the studio side, but the reality is the same as the combo for me - I don't want to pay any more for an additional copy of the movie that I have no intention of ever using. Period.

I think the only benefit of this format is that it has gotten BD and HD fans to unite and agree on hating the same thing for once instead of eachother. I will hold the hand of an HD fan and dislike this idea together.

Since a lot of people here seem to dislike the new disc, I'd like to think it has a decent chance of succcess. ;)

It all depends on other studios. Will they follow WB ? If they all do, then the format war would be over - ending in a tie.

However, is this still just in the lab ? Which replicator has signed on to this ? Will there be trouble reading the discs in some player or the other ?

And ofcourse, if this costs more than the usual hidef disc, it is a non-starter. This adds no value to the end customer ....

It has virtually zero chance of success with the enthusiast community. They're probably going to have to make a single layer for each format, which means everything will be bit-starved and it'll look like crap.

A waste of everyone's time. They'll make a handful of them and they'll be gone.

I think the only benefit of this format is that it has gotten BD and HD fans to unite and agree on hating the same thing for once instead of eachother. I will hold the hand of an HD fan and dislike this idea together.

That is by far the best comment I've seen on this ridiculous idea.

It has virtually zero chance of success with the enthusiast community. They're probably going to have to make a single layer for each format, which means everything will be bit-starved and it'll look like crap.
Our bet is that the HD side will be 30. Hoping to confirm this soon. Agree that the chances of the BD side being 50, is much lower.

To date there hasn't been any evidence that supports BD50 movies looking better than the SL25 movies. Thus if they could do 30GB HD/25GB BD that would satisfy the needs of many movies.

The other positive is that HD DVD automatically gets the protective features of Blu-ray's film coating. Any rental establishment would LOVE this. They cover two target platforms with one disc and said disc is protected very well from scratches.

I disagree...there's nothing in the enthusiast community that would automatically rule out these discs other than the fringe "mo bits equal mo betta" and the most stubborn.

I'm eager to know Amir or anyone's findings on this and come Jan 8th I'd love to know about potential pricing. It's a bit strange that some people have taken sides so quickly and vehemently with such a dearth of good information.

Our bet is that the HD side will be 30. Hoping to confirm this soon. Agree that the chances of the BD side being 50, is much lower.

Are we talking "flippers" here? Is it possible to even have HD-30 and BD-25 on the same side? What about player compatibility for existing drives...

If it is on the same side I assume the BD-25 would be first, then the HD-30. You could then say both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray have the protection layer!!!

The other positive is that HD DVD automatically gets the protective features of Blu-ray's film coating. Any rental establishment would LOVE this. They cover two target platforms with one disc and said disc is protected very well from scratches.

Doubt it would get the coating since that's not in spec, and there is NOTHING the rental industry hates more than flippers. That's why you see them with custom versions of DVD-18 titles that are DVD-9.

I disagree...there's nothing in the enthusiast community that would automatically rule out these discs other than the fringe "mo bits equal mo betta" and the most stubborn.


Except for all the enthusiasts who hate flippers, and/or are partisan and don't want their favorite format soiled by the other.

I'm eager to know Amir or anyone's findings on this and come Jan 8th I'd love to know about potential pricing

Count on at least $39.95. I don't think Warner could squeeze more than another $5 though.

Are we talking "flippers" here? Is it possible to even have HD-30 and BD-25 on the same side? What about player compatibility for existing drives...
That is our working assumption as BDA gave up on getting SD DVDs working under BD. The tolerances screw everything up as you build up less than 100% perfect layers of the cake. As a result, it is highly unlikely that HD DVD is under the BD layer.

If it is on the same side I assume the BD-25 would be first, then the HD-30. You could then say both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray have the protection layer!!!
Per above, that is not the case. But even if it were, the HD DVD side doesn't need protection. One can just let the top BD layer get destroyed and have fun with that. :p

That is our working assumption as BDA gave up on getting SD DVDs working under BD. The tolerances screw everything up as you build up less than 100% perfect layers of the cake. As a result, it is highly unlikely that HD DVD is under the BD layer.

I hope the discs are incompatible with a lot of decks on both sides personally, it'll stop the nonsense, and shorten the end of the war

Per above, that is not the case. But even if it were, the HD DVD side doesn't need protection. One can just let the top BD layer get destroyed and have fun with that. :p

Giggle! :p

That is our working assumption as BDA gave up on getting SD DVDs working under BD. The tolerances screw everything up as you build up less than 100% perfect layers of the cake. As a result, it is highly unlikely that HD DVD is under the BD layer.

Thanks. This follows that even single HD-15 cannot be there either. Flippers it is then. Not sure how the HD-DVD side would cope with more scratches with that though Amirm! Having said that, I have not had any issues with my HD-DVD's in that regard.

Wicky

Why the assumpting that the discs need to be a flipper? Both data layers reside at differing levels. It would seem that the BD layer is as transparent as Sony could make it in lieu of 4 or 8 layer discs in the future. I imagine the HD DVD Blue laser would shine right through to the HD DVD layer. I think they could make a flipper with DVD-9 on the backside but that's not really necessary IMO.

Wicky

Why the assumpting that the discs need to be a flipper? Both data layers reside at differing levels. It would seem that the BD layer is as transparent as Sony could make it in lieu of 4 or 8 layer discs in the future. I imagine the HD DVD Blue laser would shine right through to the HD DVD layer. I think they could make a flipper with DVD-9 on the backside but that's not really necessary IMO.

Because these things actually need to be replicated. Unless Warner or Cinram is now in the replication machine development business, how would you do it without taking half a disc from an HD DVD line and half a disc from a BD line?

Substate, layer, HD DVD separator, layer, large separator, BD layer, top layer, hard coat?

Gary

Gary that's what we're going to find out in 4 days.

Cleary if they cannot do this without incurring a 2x premium in price the idea is dead and we all move on.

Why the assumpting that the discs need to be a flipper? Both data layers reside at differing levels. It would seem that the BD layer is as transparent as Sony could make it in lieu of 4 or 8 layer discs in the future. I imagine the HD DVD Blue laser would shine right through to the HD DVD layer. I think they could make a flipper with DVD-9 on the backside but that's not really necessary IMO.


Well, amir, being the resident official HD-DVD expert expresses his doubts, and you would run into too many compatibility problems.

Path of least resistance is gluing them back to back, DVD-18 style.

I too am curious where they're getting the machines to replicate them. While they may have constructed them in the lab, I doubt that Sony is going to want to license a machine that does both, so I guess we'll see.

Why couldn't they stick a HD30 on one side and a BD50 on the other? Each side is not compromised and compatiblity should be little different to a normal disk. Cost is the only probable downfall (and perhaps total disk thickness??)

So Warner would produce these and stop doing separate HD-DVD and BD releases?

I generally dislike flippers in general (shades of some early DVD's like Tombstone and Stargate), but it would mean I could buy a copy and play it on either the 360 add-on or the PS3 would certainly be funny.