... in many of the threads that I've read here, you've got two very distinctive camps in this forum.

One group of people believe in the tweaks such as cables, power conditioners, etc, the other group firmly does not.

A lot of time is spent here with the two camps fighting each other. Seems very similar like two people of different religions trying to convince the other to switch beliefs.

I'm done with that part, I won't try and convince any of the tweaker believers to become scientific. If anyone holds a demo in the Pacific Northwest (from Vancouver to Seattle area), I'd be happy to show up to see what the tweaker believers actually believe in, and will offer my opinion..:)

If someone comes in here at random wanting opinions on a tweak, I'll certainly offer my 2 cents as to why it may or may not work, but I'm done with trying to convince the tweaker believers that I'm right.. :eek: :D

... in many of the threads that I've read here, you've got two very distinctive camps in this forum.

One group of people believe in the tweaks such as cables, power conditioners, etc, the other group firmly does not.

A lot of time is spent here with the two camps fighting each other. Seems very similar like two people of different religions trying to convince the other to switch beliefs.

I'm done with that part, I won't try and convince any of the tweaker believers to become scientific. If anyone holds a demo in the Pacific Northwest (from Vancouver to Seattle area), I'd be happy to show up to see what the tweaker believers actually believe in, and will offer my opinion..:)

If someone comes in here at random wanting opinions on a tweak, I'll certainly offer my 2 cents as to why it may or may not work, but I'm done with trying to convince the tweaker believers that I'm right.. :eek: :D

Curt,

you have a standing offer to visit me in the Seattle area (30 miles east in the Mountains). most any weekend would work and many times there are local audio friends visiting.

bring your cables or 'whatever'.....we can do a few A/B's for whatever that is worth (quick A/B's are not my preferred comparitive methodology but will likely reveal differences). some of my friends are subjectivists but a few are limited objectivists. we rarely have any particular agenda regarding tweaks....they are discussed while enjoying music.

i am a subjectivist but a 'learning' one. my two 'beefs' with the 'pocket protector' camp is when they (1) tell me what i hear can't be really happening and is just my imagination (when they have never listened to said gear) and (2) even think i care about their unsolicited need to protect the world from ner-do-wells.

OTOH i do grudgingly admit that a bit of scientific method has it's place......like out near the dumpster. :D :D :D

i do accept that 'science' is part of the name of this here place.

I'll take you up on that sometime soon. (hopefully before summer..:))

While walking the dog this AM right after posting above, it also occured to me that in a field like medicine, there's also no fixed scientific cure for everyone, so some 'artistic' interpretation of test results may be needed to cure 10 people of the same ailment.

Heck, what the 'best' audio or video system is is completely up to individual interpretation as well.

HOwever, one must apply scientific knowledge to get an amplifier to work. You can't throw a bunch of capacitors, resistors and chips to untrained monkeys and tell them to make a straight wire with gain...:)

(OTOH, some of the high (and low) end gear certainly looks like that's who built it..;)

Hi

I am by training and profession an engineer. I have been in this hobby for almost as long as I have been on this planet, ,since my father was also an audiophile. I very much like to assign a rationale explanation to things. I try to profess a healthy skepticism toward most claims. I do not however refute an observation because I or others can not offer an explanation or that the observations do not fit the current orthodoxy. It is for me very hard to understand how people can claim that there is NO differences between amplifiers when for me they and others some non-audiophiles they are obvious. Same with cables where the differences are most subtle, rarely night and day... yet discernible and repeatable... I do have my beef with the prices of High End Audio although I repeat being guilty as charged of contributing to the perpetration of high prices in the Industry. I do buy at times rather expensive items and to this day although I cherished them am a little put off by the prices of my Valhalla cables... They are the best I have heard but should they be so dear ( and have even become dearer these days, difficult to find an explanation, aside form the fact that people are buying them...)
What I would like to see is for those who do not believe to tone down their criticisms: if you do not hear any difference let those who do or think they do enjoy and share the experience. You can always post your point of view. It has gotten to a point where people are almost afraid to ask an advice on a gear, especially cable.. Why not if it rocks their boat? A little display of tolerance would be welcome.

I agree - I get tired of having people try to convince me that I don't hear what I hear.

I too am an Engineer twice over (Electrical and Computer) - and understand the theories behind "Watts are watts", "Copper is copper", etc. but refuse to ignore my ears.

I think it's on par with trying to convince a Republican to vote for a Democrat or vice-versa.... an utter waste of breath (bandwidth).

So please - if I want to waste my money on high dollar cables - let me and leave me alone. :)

I understand Jim. I think (hope) that I usually only jumped in on threads where the original poster wanted opinions, so I gave mine. As with guys like me that thinks that all cables within a given gauge should/do sound the same, the tweakers also many times have bad no problems offering their opinion 'Valhalla is the best, blah blah'.

Similarly, the lack of explanations offered by those that tweak to excess except 'buy this $$$$ device, it works', drives me nuts.

It's like that testimonial on the PS Audio site who plugs his non HDTV 8 year old TV into a $2K power conditioner and then 'wishes' to buy a 50" HDTV set. That's such a backwards way of thinking to me, that I just HAVE to post a retort..;)

to be fair i would like to add that one thing that should be 'fair game' to the objectivists would be any explaination of 'why' or 'how' something works.

i try to steer clear of this area as i'm not much on technical knowledge. even though i am pretty experienced at cause and effect when listening.......still trying to explain it objectivly can get me into trouble as i may see most of the picture accurately but maybe not the whole.

OTOH there should be respect for what a person says they hear....until the objector listens for themself.

'how' and 'why' is science....'perception' is experiencial and personal.

if one lives a life that requires proof of things simply don't burden the rest of us with that issue....thank you very much.

Well, the medical analogy only goes so far. After all, I'm sure any good and humble doctor will admit that we have imperfect and incomplete knowledge about how the body works. So when the unexplainable is observed he's going to be somewhat accepting of it.

But that doesn't mean that he's going to endorse homeopathy as anything more than a placebo. And if you're paying $1000/month for that placebo; well, he might have other choice words for you.

Hmm, then again, maybe the analogy does work. :)

Mike L.'s last point is a good one. Yes, the obscene pricing irks me in itself. But I know that I'd be less hostile towards this high-end audio stuff if the sellers quit putting forth ludicrous pseudoscience to back them up. But for some reason many of these companies aren't content to just say "they work, try 'em and see."

What I'm beginning to find interesting are the apologists, especially when they refer to fairly old (15-20 yrs ago) "theories" and practices, and set up straw-man arguments (which they should know to be so, considering the data, current practices and the age of the references being made). I guess the best explanation is cognitive dissonance, perception and the joys of marketing.

I think a lot of people enjoy fighting over whether tweaks are beneficial or not or they wouldn't do it.

Well the issue here is more than spy versus spy.

Many of the tweaks and CLAIMS of cable companies and other exotics are false untrue and ,arket hype.

I wont deny that you hear changes in cables amps whatever. You need to understand why though.Does the cable amp or whatever have a filter in it? Do you understand how your mind is tricked? Do you understand that how you hear is affected by sleep,mood,hunger,air,noise,people around you etc.. The list goes on. What the tweak people do many times on here is dismiss those FACTS. Audio is not a voodoo it is physics it is measureable it is not alway repeatable, ie different room, a different place in the same room. A change in distance equal to 1 milisecond from a speaker results in a delay of about one foot, that means nulls and peaks change. That is PROVEN and Measureable its simple things like this that can cause people to hear different things.

Also one reason to fight this is the fact that people are taken advantage of by the seller. Am I Aquaman out to save everyone? No but in my chosen field that I make a living from,PRO Audio,I can take what I know and help people here not get taken for a ride. Simple example is in one of the other parts of the forum guys were talking about a new HDMI cable that best buy sells for 70 bucks, the employees buy it for 8. Thats a hell of a markup and best buy has a right to do that. The problem is they lie to people and tell them its the best number one they need it. Well they can go to monoprice and get it for less money and it works perfect for the needs.

The burden is on these exotic companies to show real proof that what they sell is real and makes a difference often and in almost all cases that is not the case. There is measurements and cases to show and prove these things ,tweaks or snake oil, are bogus.

what a person says they hear....until the objector listens for themself.

'how' and 'why' is science....'perception' is experiencial and personal.

if one lives a life that requires proof of things simply don't burden the rest of us with that issue....thank you very much.

Well if we can show you that a 10 dollar cable can give you the same sound as the 100 dollar cable wouldnt you rather spend the 90 bucks someplace else, say a strip club?

If we can show you why that 10 dollar cable can give you the same good feeling and perception as the other wouldnt you be ok with that?

I'm an open skeptic. There's a lot of times that there is a desire to hear differences which bothers me. It becomes cultish. But on the other hand, there are many things which make listening to music much better. For instance, turning off the lights. Turning off the lights makes music sound SO much better, the imaging is just a zillion times superior. Now, does that have anything at all to do with some kind of electrical issues introduced by having the lights on that you've eliminated? Nonsense. It just takes your eyes out of the equation, you close your eyes and you're not seeing the room and the speakers, it's more relaxing, and you much more easily fall into the sonic illusions presented by your system.

now, if wearing a pink sock on your left foot helps you relax and fall into the music better, hey, more power to you. If spending half a million dollars on cable elevators and magic pebbles helps you relax, well, maybe you have other issues, but more power to you.

As for me, I'd rather spend more money on more music.

On the other hand there are so many people out there with high-end systems who don't have their room treated at all. That is just plain stupidity. If they're spending gross amounts of money on tweaks and cabling (and there are many who do) in an untreated room, somebody really needs to slap them, because that's ridiculous.

I look at these types of tweaks with interest and find to too difficult (actually impossible) to really know if they do help any. I see most tweaks (e.g. Balanced Power, hi grade interconnects) as having great potential to improve things ever so slightly but certainly rarely if never compromising sound. In other words, they can't hurt.

However, I look at my room and have a goal that it must have the best possible sound and video (within reason of course).

So, what is a HT enthusiast with so much time and money invested in his little project to do?

Well, here is how I determine what to buy and not:

1. Look to see if there is any science backing the tweak. For balanced power, I agree with the theories.

If so, then I'll go with it.

I typically look at such tweaks as a cost of associated with a high end room. Fortunately, they are a small percentage of cost relative to the overall moneys spent on the system. That fact makes me more likely to buy into something that has piqued my interest as to something that can potentially subtly improve my listening experience.

My Balanced Power transformers and cabling all together may add up to a few thousand dollars but as a percentage of the system's entire cost, it is peanuts...

I believe in science, it has successfully explained the world around us better than anything else. The subjectivists impress me as being much more like those who will take religion over a scientific explanation for something. In many instances they will go out of their way even, at times using science to explain something that helps them " disprove" the scientific explanation for something for the religious explanation. I simply have no hope of making any impact on these people their belief is strong.

Do I think that the subjectivists aren't hearing differences? No, I believe they are, I just am not on board with their explanations for those differences.

I really wonder though if some of you guys who are physicians,engineers etc would employ the same sorts of techniques in your professions for determining the efficacy of a treament protocol or the design of a device. If so, I worry a bit.

By the way, I do not discount spiritual influences on me and my life. My children convince of it but instances where there really is good science I take that path. It allows me much more predictable outcomes.

Jeff's outlook on conditioning for example makes sense since he wants to give his system the best opportunity to perform well but at the same time he is what I might call a moderate. You can tell by his tone that he hasn't been drinking the cool aid but instead is simply hedging his bets.

Art

the biggest hurdle in any of these discussions is the recognition of whether your ears and mind can be fooled by your eyes.

When we apply the scientific method (not science persay, just the method of strict observation of cause and effect) then we move forward. if we do testing but do not do it tuly blind, then we are incomplete.

Just because i "observe something" does not make it fact. the knowledge of using the thing can make us hear things that are not really there.

If you cannot accept these things, then the arguments go around and around.

That remainds me of decades long debates between skeptics and believers about human perception of high frequencies. I remember countless blind tests and scientific proofs leading to the commonly accepted conclusions that we do not hear sounds in the frequency range above 20kHz - or maybe more precisely that the existance of those 'inaudible' HF components should not affect the acoustic perception of audible sounds. Well, then comes the study like this one: Inaudible High-Frequency Sounds Affect Brain Activity: Hypersonic Effect (http://jn.physiology.org/cgi/content/abstract/83/6/3548) which uses new noninvasive physiological measurements (alpha-EEG) of brain responses to provide evidence that sounds containing high-frequency components above the audible range significantly affects the brain activity of listeners. I do not believe that at the moment this phenomena is fully understood or explained but at least it puts some doubts in my mind as far as the common audio wisdom is concerned. Maybe just maybe investment in audio formats with extended frequency response like LP or SACD is not at the end such a waste of money.

Richard

... in many of the threads that I've read here, you've got two very distinctive camps in this forum.

One group of people believe in the tweaks such as cables, power conditioners, etc, the other group firmly does not.

A lot of time is spent here with the two camps fighting each other. Seems very similar like two people of different religions trying to convince the other to switch beliefs.

I'm done with that part, I won't try and convince any of the tweaker believers to become scientific. If anyone holds a demo in the Pacific Northwest (from Vancouver to Seattle area), I'd be happy to show up to see what the tweaker believers actually believe in, and will offer my opinion..:)

If someone comes in here at random wanting opinions on a tweak, I'll certainly offer my 2 cents as to why it may or may not work, but I'm done with trying to convince the tweaker believers that I'm right.. :eek: :D

Oh Curt, your New Year's resolution won't last, you'll be back with your tweak critiques. But you know what. I like and respect Curt. I get **** about my thick power cords from Curt, Mike Parker and Tim Martin, yet they are all great guys
and they're **** is fun and not personal. Curt's a good guy!!!

Someday Curt ya gotta come to Phoenix to visit and demo with us. Tim Martin nearby is wonderin' when you're gonna come play with his Blendzilla CRT stack.

I know, tell me about it! I'll probably have a spare weekend when it's 110 in the shade, and I'm sucker enough to fly down at that point...;)

For some reason the CRT thing has taken off to new heights since the week before Xmas. I really wanted to rebook to come spend a day's at Tim's and stop in and say hi, but 2 days at CES is all I can afford off right now. Possibly late summer I can take a week off and tour around...

[QUOTE=ChrisWiggles]
..On the other hand there are so many people out there with high-end systems who don't have their room treated at all..QUOTE]

They do some treatment, put a panel here, a rug there. What they refuse to do is the full lobotomy home theater treatment costing more than the gear, with the gear being picked up by the carpenter, to finally watch crap movies. The sound gets so dead after a hometheater treatment that they have to add five or seven unnecessary subwoofers to resuscitate the space. One of the reasons that stereo doesn't work in a video space. Besides audiophiles are generally interested in music, an art form. Hometheaterphiles are interested in entertainment, in lifestyle and room treatment. I bet most of them have just about 100 DVDs.

Oh my gosh, I must be off my rocker tonight. Because I'm so tired of Steve's shenanigan's I'm glad to see Refugio!

oy vay... all the worms are coming out of the woodwork :D :D

[QUOTE=ChrisWiggles]
..On the other hand there are so many people out there with high-end systems who don't have their room treated at all..QUOTE]

They do some treatment, put a panel here, a rug there. What they refuse to do is the full lobotomy home theater treatment costing more than the gear, with the gear being picked up by the carpenter, to finally watch crap movies. The sound gets so dead after a hometheater treatment that they have to add five or seven unnecessary subwoofers to resuscitate the space. One of the reasons that stereo doesn't work in a video space. Besides audiophiles are generally interested in music, an art form. Hometheaterphiles are interested in entertainment, in lifestyle and room treatment. I bet most of them have just about 100 DVDs.

"treatment" does not equal an HT space in terms of such a low RT60 time. I would expect a beginner in the audiophile world would even recognize that. A properly designed listening space does not need to cost a huge amount of money. And given that it is probably THE most important component of the audio system, it's quite an excellent value.

But I guess that's how professionals do it in their mixing stages, they just throw a rug here and there and don't give a second thought to it..... :confused:

You know, I responded to that not realizing who the poster was. I feel scammed almost...

Look here, in his new treated built from scratch dead room Mike Lavigne old speakers were not working anymore. He had to buy bigger speakers to hear anything. Soundwise I bet he liked his old room better. For audio you have to be very careful when treating a room. For home theater I always said that it doesn't matter because of the material that most people are listening to and watching. A fart is a fart, it doesn't have to be three dimensional. The more dead the better.

I wont deny that you hear changes in cables amps whatever. You need to understand why though.


WHY do I NEED to understand it? Is there any law for it? :(

C'mon, people this is just a frigging hobby, a pleasure.

Why do I have to have a scientific proof? I don't need science to explain me why the cables, some power tweaks and others make a difference in audio.

We don't need it since we buy these stuff for our pleasure and not for life saving situations or for running our businesses or for some other serious stuff. IMO, science and scientific researches should have their focus more on areas like health, energy, environment, etc. don't you think?

I don't need any explanation because I can HEAR it and so does thousands of other people. (OK, for you, we are all delusional fools with lots of money to burn... just keep believing in it)

(OK, for you, we are all delusional fools with lots of money to burn... just keep believing in it)


Well actually based on some posts here, yes, that's EXACTLY the way I feel about some people here...;)

I will however take Mike up on his offer to check out his high end system this year sometime.

Who knows, maybe I'll walk away a changed man. No one would be more shocked than myself at that. Whatever happens, I'll post about it and will be happy to be everyone's whipping boy...

Well actually based on some posts here, yes, that's EXACTLY the way I feel about some people here...;)
...

Mike is not a good example as far as audio is concerned. I'd call him a Replicant. Like others here, he has been contaminated by the hometheater crowd.

Happy New Year Refugio..

Mike is not a good example as far as audio is concerned. I'd call him a Replicant. Like others here, he has been contaminated by the hometheater crowd.

i know i'll hate myself in the morning for quoting Refugio....... ;)

but.....i can assure you that no video of any kind 'soils' my 2-channel room. i have a separate 18' x 15' deicated Home Theatre room in the main house that i enjoy. while i was waiting for my new speakers to arrive i did allow myself to give into the temptation of the 'dark side' (you know.....HT rooms need to be dark) to upgrade my video.

now that my new speakers have arrived i am trying to figure out just what got into me to worry about video anyway. :D :D :D

the biggest hurdle in any of these discussions is the recognition of whether your ears and mind can be fooled by your eyes.

When we apply the scientific method (not science persay, just the method of strict observation of cause and effect) then we move forward. if we do testing but do not do it tuly blind, then we are incomplete.

Just because i "observe something" does not make it fact. the knowledge of using the thing can make us hear things that are not really there.

If you cannot accept these things, then the arguments go around and around.I agree totally. I was trying to think how to say it, but you said it perfectly.

I agree totally. I was trying to think how to say it, but you said it perfectly.


Well it has been said many times on here when people claim to hear things. I have asked do you understand how your ears change from simple things like. Are u mad,sad,glad, what time of day is it,were in a car, were you drunk last night as booze effects the hearing even the next day,what sounds or things were going on at the same time.
The true variable here many times are the ears. I mix the same live show 5 to 7 times a week. I use a Yamaha DM2000 to mix on and it has every scene and song recalled just like it was yesterday, yet why does it sometimes sound a bit different? My gear didnt move. The band is on all electronic instruments that unless they play wildly different will always sound the same. Yet why did it overall sound softer or louder to me one night, well my ears are the most sensitive of all the gear.

Now I dont argue that they hear changes in home theatre or what ever, but why did you hear it?

Thats why I want to see a measurement of that cable. The measurement device does not have ears and as long as it used correctly will show me all I need to know.