The companies gave us this damn war, after initial reluctance I chose a firm position on the field, all of us on EITHER side have been "fighting hard" with our cash for that SAME GREAT DREAM that there will ultimately be only ONE GLORIOUS FORMAT, - PERFECTED AND HONED by enemy competition - IN THE DESERT, IN THE DARK!

Yet now what?!

We have the possible early introduction of what are, IMO, - just some half-baked, stop-gap solutions - and ones that will potentially allow the studios to just settle for less. Now studios/CEs seem like they may choose to focus their production costs on being able to provide media on two formats and/or in a way best suited to the "lowest common denominator" rather than putting that money towards making a single movie disc title the best it could possibly be.

We may now see a bunch of cookie-cutter "Total Format" releases or studios just continuing to pump out whatever they got with no extras or advanced authoring - since suddenly the concern may be how can we get weak, barely satisfactory HD out to more people - instead of LET THE BEST GOD-D***ED PRODUCT ON EARTH WIN!

We could have had the most jam-packed, competitive, and unbelievable releases of our favorite movies ever - in one format that was as clear as day and friendly to everybody - but instead we have to endure sh*t now. Yeah, it may have taken a little longer and been a little tougher to wait for this "perfected" AND "mass-adopted" format to have been meated out through a year or two of raw competition. But the hell with the "easy way out". We all would have been better off for the struggle - for the ultimate achievement of "the one" ideal.

Now instead we may have to try to continue to discern between up to 3 different HD formats, each potentially with their own quirks/pricing/standards, for perhaps even longer than necessary, different packaging on the shelf fiascos, all the while allowing companies to do their own thing in their own half-assed way - instead of forcing them to start to work in unison and provide their absolute best.

I'm an HD DVD fan but if BD, over the next year, had rose to the challenge and made "my" format look like sh*t - with one brilliant release and innovation after another - I wouldn't have wept. Rather, I would have said "God bless the work you've done HD DVD" - but it's time to welcome a new regime change - and they've ****ing EARNED IT.

Now nobody has to "earn" jack-sh*t. They can just put out whatever to different and additional formats that are unnecessary - with sub-par releases that they assume can satisfy the lowest-common-denominator "mass-market" that things like TotalHD and dual-format players allow them to reach.

THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE! ...was the beautiful battle cry - and now it's fading...

I'd prefer if the "consumers" choice prevailed, but if Blu-ray does prevail, I'll stick with HD DVD until a combo player can be bought for $200-300.

All that emotion over an optical disk format for watching movies? How do you feel about issues that really matter?

I thought this was about entertainment, albiet at a high-quality and enthusiast level, I don't understand some people's emotional allegiance to a particular brand of a 5" piece of plastic and aluminum.

Because if one of these formats don't take off, we mave never get to purchase some of the cinematic greats in HD at all.

Also it's a big deal in many countries as there are still a few locations that have no HD broadcasting.

Even though this format war blows it does have some positives - competetion which keeps prices low and features high, as well as fast development turnaround time (see firmware updates). But if it drags on to long, (over 12 months) i truely believe us as the HD consumer will be the ones who suffer most.

I can live with the "format war" now since hardware prices seem to be falling and with hints that a universal player is in the offing ... I would rather nuke the team that implemented the rights management copy protection!

Not so bad if it strictly affected copying, but when it appears to be screwing up legitimate viewage ... thats just wrong.

Sam

It might be possible to put people in two main groups here (and maybe there are more I am missing).

There are those who have a preference for one, but would rather that the other win over a draw that causes extra pain and expense just to support both. Then there are those who have a preference for one and would rather have a draw than have the other side win outright.

Giving the two formats the letters A and B where A represents a person's preference (meaning it could be either HD DVD or Blu-ray and then B is the other) we would mostly have those who's order of preferences are:

1. A
2. B
3. both

and

1. A
2. both
3. B

I'm in the A, then B, then both camp. I can understand why people who have a financial incentive through their job would be in the A, then both, then B camp, but I wonder how many who have no tie like that would be in that camp.

Of course there are also those who don't care, which makes up the biggest group in the population. :)

--Darin

Yup I still want to the war to continue. bring it on!


there should be no truce in format war.

I'm really happy to see a CE and a Content company put their foot forward to end this war with products and not politics. I wish them both well.

However, I find the people on here with their strong bias for either side wanting a total win, only so they can rub it in and feel better about themselves, rather pathetic.

If universal players become the norm or Warner ends up licensing their discs to studios for use then it doesn't matter what you buy, it'll simply work, where is the downside? at this point you'd simply be left with backroom contracts and royalties, none of which any of you (except insiders) have any knowledge about. I'd venture to say that some of the fanatics rather see both formats become niche like SACD and DVDA than the thought of a compromise to expand the market.

All that emotion over an optical disk format for watching movies? How do you feel about issues that really matter?

I thought this was about entertainment, albiet at a high-quality and enthusiast level, I don't understand some people's emotional allegiance to a particular brand of a 5" piece of plastic and aluminum.


Agreed 100%... Thanks for saving me some keyboard time....

If universal players become the norm or Warner ends up licensing their discs to studios for use then it doesn't matter what you buy, it'll simply work, where is the downside?I see this as costing consumers more in the long run than if either side was to win outright (or a concession that left one side continuing and the other side getting something in return). Even with some universal players there are still likely to be non-universal players for some time and studios having to decide which kinds of discs to make. Warner already said that people would pay extra for the dual format discs, so to me that is instantly a downside of that vs a single format and single kind of disc scenario. And it doesn't even support dual layer BDs, which makes it more like Blu-ray with 25GB max. I think the kinds of discs Warner is talking about have to cost more than single layer BDs or dual layer HD DVDs and with the only real upside being something that wouldn't be needed if one side won (or a concession like I mentioned).

--Darin

I see this as more of a software formatting issue. HD-DVD and BD are basically software formats on top of a storage media. If we just separate the two, MSFT should be allowed to store their HD-DVD format software on the same media as BD format software.

This way everyone can go away happy. To smooth bruised ego, the new storage media should be called BHD or HBD (flip a coin in case people care which goes first).

If we can agree on this, then we can start the search for the media that makes the most sense and just stick to that. My vote would be for a bigger media with higher datarate, but hey, that's just the PC guy talking.

Let iHD or BD-J eke out whatever following they want, let them do this pong home-shopping interactive thing to the nth degree.

Should I care whether EVO or MTS is the stream format? Should I care whether they live under the BDMV folder or the HVVIDEO_TS folder?

All I want is to watch movies. Is that too much to ask?

I agree with the original poster. I want one winner and one winner only. Wether it is the side I have chosen or not. I dont want multicolor cases and different formats or combo players. I want one High Definition format to replace my standard Definition Format. All these products are so new and owned by practically no one in comparison to SD that it shouldnt be to hard to say the winner is......and all of us accept and enjoy.

The software formats are mostly the same. It is the physical disk that differs.

I don't fall into either of the groups previously mentioned. I don't care which format wins, I would just like an end to the war. A universal player would be my second choice.

Amiable-Akuma, i totally agree with you.

although, i would be sad to see the extra stoarage space and bandwidth of blu-ray lose to hd-dvd, i have to admit.

I think the good parts of the format war (forcing prices for players down to sub $500 early on and forcing both sides to actually make good encodes) are pretty much played out. If one format is really "superior" to the other it will win in the long run regardless of the existance of a universal player. If neither format is superior to the other in any way meaningful to the consumer, then the war is pointless to begin with.

I would like to see one winner. At the time that "winner" is declared, though, I want to be able to play both types of discs (becasue throwing away money is not cool).

So, as long as the format war is undecided, I think that the TotalHD format for neutral studios is acceptable, but not particularly desirable.

The introduction of dual-format players is not only acceptable but desirable. At htat point, the consumer doesn't have to care what format the studio prefers. Does that allow the studios to be lazy? I don't think so. The studios have to sell the software, and to do that they will still need to innovate in order to compete against eachother.

I'm personally glad that it's becoming a non-issue. Watching folks who are usually intelligent become horrid frothing forumbeasts is degrading to all involved. This "Pro-Wrestling" mentality is sad to watch.

One format.

As much as I prefer Blu-Ray for it's higher storage and bandwidth I'd rather see HD-DVD prevail than having this stalemate. To me the end goal should be critical mass so that the high def disk approaches DVD prices (for both software and hardware). With both formats surviving thanks to universal players and the crap that Warner announced today we'll never reach critical mass and BR and HD-DVD will remain niche products.

Now that I support both, I just don't care anymore. I always found it interesting how "one sided" people can be about formats/gaming systems. How can some think so highly of a company or product and so low of another? I've always bought all the technology I could get my hands on and that includes multiple formats/gaming systems of all types.

When I read about someone slamming a product and elevating it's competition, I always thought, no matter what I already supported, "I hope I can afford the other one too". But that is just me. Have fun with your "war" boys!

the topic title is sooooo funny .. :D

My position has actually evolved very recently. In truth, I would actually like both formats to continue and all studios to publish on both using the advantages of each based on the type of release. For instance, if a badass special edition is planned and the capacity of BD50 is best suited for that, release that with a scaled back version on HD DVD for those that have single format capability. You would not get everything on the BD50, but you would still get the movie and some of the supplements. On the other hand, the cost efficiency of HD DVD could be brought into play for catalog titles. Collectors would benefit if the studios were economically inclined to release more catalog titles because it is cheaper. With VC-1 and AVC, even these could also be released on the cheaper BD25 media for the BD-only owners.

Then there is that other side of me that would like to see Blu-ray go down in flames just to see a few members of this forum have to go out and commit suicide.

(Hey, that was a joke.)

Amiable-Akuma,

You are so on to it. The format war is in VERY serious danger of becoming a cultural artifact. Two incompatible formats, no codec standard, no disc size standard, no audio standard, no interactivity standard, exclusive studios trying to control consumers, hidden agendas (eg. licensing fees) controlling a lot of decisions, it goes on and on. Now dual format players and software discs as a patchwork attempt to try and restore some order. Just a mess.

One format.

As much as I prefer Blu-Ray for it's higher storage and bandwidth I'd rather see HD-DVD prevail than having this stalemate. To me the end goal should be critical mass so that the high def disk approaches DVD prices (for both software and hardware). With both formats surviving thanks to universal players and the crap that Warner announced today we'll never reach critical mass and BR and HD-DVD will remain niche products.Exactly my thoughts! I would like only one format to stand victor. In addition to above, I think if both formats survive, none will get used to the fullest potential.

Let the format war instigators duke it out in silence while I enjoy my HD.

Dual format players, dual format discs, cheap HD DVD options.

It all means that I can go about my life while being able to have access to a little bit more content at a time.

Of course, one or two new studios on HD DVD next week will be a good start, too. :)

One thing I CAN predict is that there won't be another format war like this for at least a couple of generations...

My position has actually evolved very recently. In truth, I would actually like both formats to continue and all studios to publish on both using the advantages of each based on the type of release. For instance, if a badass special edition is planned and the capacity of BD50 is best suited for that, release that with a scaled back version on HD DVD for those that have single format capability. You would not get everything on the BD50, but you would still get the movie and some of the supplements. On the other hand, the cost efficiency of HD DVD could be brought into play for catalog titles. Collectors would benefit if the studios were economically inclined to release more catalog titles because it is cheaper. With VC-1 and AVC, even these could also be released on the cheaper BD25 media for the BD-only owners.
I thought kind of the same thing/scenario yesterday. I don't know if you saw my post, but I was talking about how sad this is to me since neither format's software has been optimized as of yet. Thus we really haven't seen the best that either side has to offer at this point in time.

At first, my fear was that some of the BD studios might "cheap out" due to lower "reported" replication costs for HD DVD 30G discs (vs. BD50's) at this point in time. Would this force all studios to produce on HD DVD 30 to maximize profitability? But then you gotta take into account that you basically need VC-1 to make most movies work on HD DVD 30 and right now it takes a lot longer to encode VC-1 than MPEG2, which adds cost to produce what's ON the disc. So is the studio better off encoding MPEG2 on a BD50 in order to crank out titles quickly and possibly more cheaply (I posted about this today). Of course, in this scenario, I'm assuming that VC-1 (or AVC for that matter) on a HD DVD 30 is roughly equivalent to MPEG2 on a BD50.

Then I thought as you just posted... What if the BD50 w/ advanced codecs could be reserved for the uber "badass" special editions, and some of the regular titles or catalog titles go on a HD DVD 30. Would that makes sense to a studio? But here's what I thought might be a problem with that. If a studio chooses format (BD or HD DVD) based on release type (again, 'badass" BD50 SE vs. regular/catalog HD DVD 30), what happens to the people without universal players? As in, PS3, HD DVD 360add-on, and the standalones?

Let take an example to illustrate: Disney will release Pirates of the Carribean 3 to theaters this summer. Let's assume they want to do a "badass SE" in the 4th Quarter 07 and they decide to do it on BD50. What the heck do the people with HD DVD addons or standalone players do? The only solution I can think of, which you noted too, is that they could release a "stripped down" HD DVD 30, but then would Disney want to run a dual inventory?

Same goes in reverse too. You're going to have a lot of PS3s out there within the next few years which are BD only. Are these people simpy out of luck with our idea of most catalog titles going on HD DVD 30?

Lots of questions without answers. But to me, it doesn't make sense for a studio to choose a format based on the planned release type. They'd be limiting their market in one direction or the other, or be forced to release two versions (i.e the BD50 SE or the HD DVD 30 "stripped down" version). EDIT: Or they could just say "Forget the people who have proprietary players (like the PS3, HD DVd Addon, and all standalones sold to date and into the future).

But I like the way you think. It's time we get back to being enthusiasts who want the best possible experience and outcome regardless of format. I see a lot of that in your post, and I hope that is the general trend of this forum going forward. :D

I don't like the way the question is framed. I have nothing against either format or the promoters of either. I tire of all the negativity.

But I don't think we need both of these formats, and the fact that we have both is causing the consumer to walk away.

People are ready for an hd disk format. I saw customers at CE stores in droves carrying out 1080P flatscreens this Christmas. I have never seen anyone actually buy an HD DVD or Blu-ray machine (except for PS3's). When I talk to people, they always say they are waiting.

I said 18 months ago that Toshiba and Sony would have been better off to flip a coin and divide the royalties. Had that happened, both of them would be competing with each other (along with everyone else) on the level playing field of the same format, and we would probably have about 250 hd disks to choose from right now, with droves coming out. None of us would be angry or frustrated.

It will be unfortunate if the better format doen't win after going through all of this hassle but having a resolution is the important thing.

All that emotion over an optical disk format for watching movies? How do you feel about issues that really matter?
No doubt! I would bet dollars to donuts that all of us reading this forum have a job, sleep comfortably, eat regularly, aren't under the boot heel of some A-hole dictator, don't have AIDS ravaging our countries, etc..

Makes me say THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU at the top of my lungs! :)

Let the format war instigators duke it out in silence while I enjoy my HD.



...said the top instigator of partisan petitions and websites. :rolleyes:

The companies gave us this damn war, after initial reluctance I chose a firm position on the field

So by choosing a side, you support the war.

Exactly the reason why I refuse to be a part of it and will buy when there is either a dual player or a dual disc to be played.

As someone who has owned a Magnavox video game, Apple II computer, Beta VCR, SACD/DVD Audio discs and DBX audio decoders, I am not supporting another war.

I prefer Bd. I own both. Whoever wins I will support. Why? Because I love movies in HD. The rest is just meaningless jibber jabber.

...said the top instigator of partisan petitions and websites. :rolleyes:
Do I get a ribbon? ;) :D

I no longer think a NUKE will make any difference. More and more I fear HD-DVD and Blu-ray becoming more like SACD and DVD-A both formats offer high quality but the masses prefered not only CD but also the inferior MP3. I see no reason why DVD could do the same especially when people first get that nice all digital connection with their DVD player to their new HDTV they are blown away. SAtellite and CAble and over the air more often than not have too much compresion making DVD look even more attractive. Blu-Ray endcaps at the stores which are in high numbers most of the time look like caca from a combination of poor source material and a poor set up. Given AACS is almost cracked or on the verge or one step closer etc. there is no reason for the studios to push the new formats as aggressively as before given the high profits from releasing on DVD. Or even worse choose the way of downloads like MP3. Seriously hope I am wrong.

I am now considering buying both formats as a result.

I have a feeling the longer this goes on the more likely this ends like DVD-A and SACD. I'm not buying either until a winner emerges. I'm more than happy to view upconverted DVD and HD-lite from Dish network until then.

People are ready for an hd disk format. I saw customers at CE stores in droves carrying out 1080P flatscreens this Christmas. I have never seen anyone actually buy an HD DVD or Blu-ray machine (except for PS3's). When I talk to people, they always say they are waiting.

I said 18 months ago that Toshiba and Sony would have been better off to flip a coin and divide the royalties. Had that happened, both of them would be competing with each other (along with everyone else) on the level playing field of the same format, and we would probably have about 250 hd disks to choose from right now, with droves coming out. None of us would be angry or frustrated.
I think these two thoughts are at odds. Folks are wanting/waiting yet if there were a unified format it would have gone the same old road -

- ream as many as you can @ $1,000
- ream as many others @ $750
- ream yet some more @ $500

Same as tape & DVDs it would have been quite a few years before the prices reached mainstream.

Let the format war go until players are in the $250 - $300 range - competition is a good thing.

I want a winner and a loser at some point. I just don't think we're too near that point yet. I think we need more fighting if it will force down player prices. It should.... Both formats are pretty irrelevant to civilians at the current player prices, Bu even more so.

The general public has been told there is a format war and they wanna see blood. ;) They won't rest comfortably till there is only one. The general public will proably be ready for HD discs in about 5 years...?

In 1-2 years, I think we, indeed, need a champion. There's stille some sorting out to go yet....time now for a surge, no, an escalation.... ;) That will lead to loads of fun here at gladiator school, eh?

What is it with the arrogance of some HD DVD fanboys here? Hoping the "consumers" choice wins rather than Blu Ray??? This is the worst kind of hollow rhetoric, and shows a complete lack of respect for those who choose differently. Consumers place different emphasis on different aspects of a format, and you aren't "brainwashed" just becasue of this.

What is it with the arrogance of some HD DVD fanboys here? Hoping the "consumers" choice wins rather than Blu Ray??? This is the worst kind of hollow rhetoric, and shows a complete lack of respect for those who choose differently. Consumers place different emphasis on different aspects of a format, and you aren't "brainwashed" just becasue of this.

What is it with the arrogance of the Blu-ray fanboys that demand people pay more for a video game machine than a standalone player just to watch HD programming?

The consumers choice is price, price, price and the format that can get to the point where the non-enthusiast jumps on a format wins.

What is it with the arrogance of the Blu-ray fanboys that demand people pay more for a video game machine than a standalone player just to watch HD programming?

The consumers choice is price, price, price and the format that can get to the point where the non-enthusiast jumps on a format wins.

What on EARTH are you talking about? I never told you to buy anything. Call the BDA arrogant, I don't care (most corporations are, including Toshiba and Microsoft...and Sony and Apple), or point to a specific post and the problems with an over zealous BD fanboy (there are plenty on these forums).

But who died and made you God that you get to dictate the "consumers' choice"??? YOU may have chose based on price, but I did not. I spent more than $500 over what I had to to get the Blu Ray player that met my needs (the Panasonic) and they were based on what I, as I consumer, needed for my setup. I also bough an A1, and wished I hadn't, as it failed to do anything well except throw an awesome picture (which it does very, very well for any price). Too bad for this consumer that isn't enough to justify a POS beta release player. Maybe I'll get an A20 if the reviews are solid and HD DVD releases some exclusive movies I want.

I'm not saying you can't argue about the importance of price (obviously HD DVD wouldn't even be here right now if price wasn't an important issue) but what gives you or Mark0 the right to dictate that one format is the "Consumers' Choice" while the rest of us are brainwashed or uniformed?

What on EARTH are you talking about? I never told you to buy anything. Call the BDA arrogant, I don't care (most corporations are, including Toshiba and Microsoft...and Sony and Apple), or point to a specific post and the problems with an over zealous BD fanboy (there are plenty on these forums).

But who died and made you God that you get to dictate the "consumers' choice"??? YOU may have chose based on price, but I did not. I spent more than $500 over what I had to to get the Blu Ray player that met my needs (the Panasonic) and they were based on what I, as I consumer, needed for my setup. I also bough an A1, and wished I hadn't, as it failed to do anything well except throw an awesome picture (which it does very, very well for any price). Too bad for this consumer that isn't enough to justify a POS beta release player. Maybe I'll get an A20 if the reviews are solid and HD DVD releases some exclusive movies I want.

I'm not saying you can't argue about the importance of price (obviously HD DVD wouldn't even be here right now if price wasn't an important issue) but what gives you or Mark0 the right to dictate that one format is the "Consumers' Choice" while the rest of us are brainwashed or uniformed?

Just an understanding of the fundamentals of economics and the history of every video format war ever waged.

What is it with the arrogance of the Blu-ray fanboys that demand people pay more for a video game machine than a standalone player just to watch HD programming?


You should share some of the crack you're smoking, since I'm not sure what reality you live in. :D

I want to see one format survive and the other sink into commercial obscurity but in the meantime, I'm not bothered by it all since I can watch both. At this point, I have to lean BD since there's more content I want and I get better AQ out of the PS3/BD side right now, but if the situation reverses itself I wouldn't lose any sleep over it, either.

Just an understanding of the fundamentals of economics and the history of every video format war ever waged.

Oh, really? Why did cable outcompete broadcast tv in terms of revenue when broadcast was free? What about color TVs vs black and white? Heck, why did tv ever outcompete radio and (initially) the movies when it was so much more expensive than the other options?

Now, is BD as much of an innovation over HD DVD (or even DVD) as they examples I gave? Of course not (well, concieveably similar to tbe cable/broadcast example I gave). Is it enough of an advantage that consumers might in the large feel differently from you? As third and fourth options, will consumers at large not care at very until there is no price difference, or simply never care about either format ever? Time will tell (although clearly enough have or else the format war would already be dead).

I am NOT arguing that price isn't an important factor. But the rhetorical device of lableing your preferred format "the consumers' choice" is arrogant, and does nothing except to try and define your opinion as right before the discussion starts, while simultaneously insulting the intelligence of those consuers who choose differently from you. Please be more considerate in your wording, it will make AVS a more pleasant place.

I'm not saying you can't argue about the importance of price (obviously HD DVD wouldn't even be here right now if price wasn't an important issue) but what gives you or Mark0 the right to dictate that one format is the "Consumers' Choice" while the rest of us are brainwashed or uniformed?

lol

Oh, really? Why did cable outcompete broadcast tv in terms of revenue when broadcast was free? What about color TVs vs black and white? Heck, why did tv ever outcompete radio and (initially) the movies when it was so much more expensive than the other options?

Now, is BD as much of an innovation over HD DVD (or even DVD) as they examples I gave? Of course not (well, concieveably similar to tbe cable/broadcast example I gave). Is it enough of an advantage that consumers might in the large feel differently from you? As third and fourth options, will consumers at large not care at very until there is no price difference, or simply never care about either format ever? Time will tell (although clearly enough have or else the format war would already be dead).

I am NOT arguing that price isn't an important factor. But the rhetorical device of lableing your preferred format "the consumers' choice" is arrogant, and does nothing except to try and define your opinion as right before the discussion starts, while simultaneously insulting the intelligence of those consuers who choose differently from you. Please be more considerate in your wording, it will make AVS a more pleasant place.

1. Did I say that HD-DVD is the consumers choice? No, I said the cheapest format is. If BRD can't keep up with HD-DVD in the discounting, they lose period. If they can get a player that costs less than HD-DVD, they win. It's what won VHS vs Beta for example.

2. Cable TV vs Broadcast: Many People decided that paying less than $1.00 per channel was worth it. Many still don't have cable.

3. Color vs. Black and White: Now thats red-blooded American male there. They wanted to watch their sports in color, and Barbara Eden prancing around in lingerie in I Dream of Jeanie. Why do people buy HD sets today that are more expensive than SD?

topic closed