From Another thread here at this forum:

And to that we have a couple more PSA products coming for test as well. And a group of us will be going to CES on the 11th to see if anybody in any of the snake oil booths want to do some tests against our zip cord. Should be fun.

Come on Speco2003. Here's your chance. Tell us about all of your demos of
power conditioners and tweaks, the specific products, testing conditions, objective test measurement equipment and measurements, etc. Thanks.

(Speco2003 regularly jumps in on threads re power conditions especially PS Audio, cables and other tweaks. Sort of like the movie "V for Vendetta" except his vendetta ain't the government, its the tweak AC establishment. Lets give him the opportunity to more fully and objectively explain himself.) :confused:

Sure we use for audio tests Meyer Sound SIM system 2 and 3. Sia SMAART.
For AC tests we use Various Fluke gear like the 190 and 430 testers. Along with gear from Audio Precision.

I will say this again. I dont have a beef against power conditioners, I have a beef with the hype placed on them and other tweaks that simply is not true. I have typed this many times in this forum and now your just becoming a troll.

Sure we use for audio tests Meyer Sound SIM system 2 and 3. Sia SMAART.
For AC tests we use Various Fluke gear like the 190 and 430 testers. Along with gear from Audio Precision.

I will say this again. I dont have a beef against power conditioners, I have a beef with the hype placed on them and other tweaks that simply is not true. I have typed this many times in this forum and now your just becoming a troll.

Why do you have to call me names? Why don't you just answer questions and explain yourself? Calling folks names just pisses them off and leads them to disbelieve that you have good intentions as opposed to troublemaking?

Why don't you explain to us what the Fluke gear is and how it objectively tests whatever it tests? Same for Audio Precision. What measurements are important to you as you objectively test power conditioners?

i would like to see him at ces. i can already tell you that if the blind test does not go according to "plan" he will start telling the vendors to "prove" that it does something with measurements. and even if he does hear something different, he won't admit it. oh well, science doesn't prove everything... don't let me get into the whole "human creation" thing!!!! :confused:


uh oh, the door has opened and my head is soon to be chewed off!!! :D

Lets get away with criticizing Speco. Lets give him an opportunity to educate us about his "facts" and opinions. And just politely ask him questions.

Why do you have to call me names?Perhaps because the name fits in this circumstance. Don't pretend your motives here were 100% pure and sweet, it insults our intelligence. Not only is this like the third "statement" thread you've created in the last couple of weeks, this one singles out one person. If you can't take a little heat in response---particularly when it is joined by an apparent willingness on his part to directly respond to your little game---then shut the heck up.

The Gear he mentioned is the absolute best in measuring the true response of Audio components.

It can measure stuff that you cannot even comprehend. Not trying to be mean, it is just that it is real audio. it is from the place where people actually know how all their components work and are not afraid to talk about it. and it there is a problem that needs adressing, they do so. they do not throw 5K power tweak boxes at fixing a chassis ground problem.

Again, i do not mean to be mean, but the absolute assurance of all the esoteric tweaks drives me (and others) as nuts as our search for proof does you guys.

Not to speak for Speco2003 but here is my 2 cents.

For people in the Industry we know a certain product should be used to get a desired affect or output to work by itself or in conjunction with other products, when something is wrong,we troubleshoot by listening, seeing or measuring a problem we do not go and band aid the problem but go into trouble shoot mode to find what device or connection is failing or just misadjusted.

With Power products they should make any device be it A/C or D/C driven run as efficient as possible with out any undue stress on a device. Loss or drop in A/C voltage is always a concern especially during summer months when current draws force voltages to drop from the norm. This where my company plus others use equipment to get that incoming A/C back to a norm again.

Keeping the A/C waveform in a clean sweep (An ocsiloscope helps for this)
Bring the voltage back to as close to the 120 volt level as possible, which helps current draw back to specs.

The issue with some products is they try to go beyond basic's with their products and hype up that product when 99% of the time simple basics of Ohms Law will find a problem with voltage,amperage, and resistance issue's of our home or work gear.

Yes, we use products of Alpha and APC but to compliment our other gear to run as effcient as the manufacture intended, with out undue stress from our own generator's or power company supply voltage.

Not to speak for Speco2003 but here is my 2 cents.

For people in the Industry we know a certain product should be used to get a desired affect or output to work by itself or in conjunction with other products, when something is wrong,we troubleshoot by listening, seeing or measuring a problem we do not go and band aid the problem but go into trouble shoot mode to find what device or connection is failing or just misadjusted.

With Power products they should make any device be it A/C or D/C driven run as efficient as possible with out any undue stress on a device. Loss or drop in A/C voltage is always a concern especially during summer months when current draws force voltages to drop from the norm. This where my company plus others use equipment to get that incoming A/C back to a norm again.

Keeping the A/C waveform in a clean sweep (An ocsiloscope helps for this)
Bring the voltage back to as close to the 120 volt level as possible, which helps current draw back to specs.

The issue with some products is they try to go beyond basic's with their products and hype up that product when 99% of the time simple basics of Ohms Law will find a problem with voltage,amperage, and resistance issue's of our home or work gear.

Yes, we use products of Alpha and APC but to compliment our other gear to run as effcient as the manufacture intended, with out undue stress from our own generator's or power company supply voltage.

Thank you. This is what I want, an intelligent discussion rather than name calling.
Wish we all could do that.

As I stated, I would like more information regarding the objective test equipment used and perhaps give some examples of what you measure with it if you are demoing or trying out power conditioners or accessories. Thanks.

Sure we use for audio tests Meyer Sound SIM system 2 and 3. Sia SMAART.
For AC tests we use Various Fluke gear like the 190 and 430 testers. Along with gear from Audio Precision.

I will say this again. I dont have a beef against power conditioners, I have a beef with the hype placed on them and other tweaks that simply is not true. I have typed this many times in this forum and now your just becoming a troll.

SPECO

I believe in providing clean stable power to my system and I have observed the results. I do not care about the "explantions" provided by amny audiophiles companies , they are usually Marketing Bovine Manure...

So that I understand your point. What hypes you think are placed on Power conditionner, what about their inclusion in a system is true or Not?

I'll throw this into the mix, since Dizzman said it very well in the other thread before it got closed. Here's his quote:

pin 1 grounding problem in design can mean the need for other tweaks to possibly shield that problem.

Pin 1 grounding errors are epidemic through the audio industry.

My opinion is that if a sound system, be it car, home or pro is designed PROPERLY, from the equipment design itself, the power supplying the equipment, grounding, adequate power and speakers for the application, room treatment, etc, then a power conditioner isn't required.

To me, a power conditioner, regenerator, blah blah, is a duct tape solution for something that should be cured by the implementation/installation of the system.

I found out shortly after I put my own HT system into my home, that the entire room is on 1 15 amp outlet. I can hear the limitations of the single circuit, and I need to run at least a double 20 amp circuit into the room... when I get time. A power conditioner/regenerator won't help in my case.

OK, back on topic.:)

To me, a power conditioner, regenerator, blah blah, is a duct tape solution for something that should be cured by the implementation/installation of the system.

That's one of the best statements I've seen on this topic here yet. In fairness, though, often the problems (grounding, et al) can be caused not so much by installation or individual product design as much as by interaction between components. This is where isolation and/or 'conditioning' can solve otherwise intractable problems.

I found out shortly after I put my own HT system into my home, that the entire room is on 1 15 amp outlet. I can hear the limitations of the single circuit, and I need to run at least a double 20 amp circuit into the room... when I get time. A power conditioner/regenerator won't help in my case.

Actually, an online UPS or 'regenerator' might be the best solution for this type of problem. If the device was oversized and had enough storage (caps or batteries) on the DC bus, it could actually allow your system to maintain voltage and ride through peak demand transients. It's true that it won't solve the problem of a steady-state overload, but that's actually fairly unlikely, unless you have TONS of stuff on your line - like right at the breaker-tripping point.

SPECO

I believe in providing clean stable power to my system and I have observed the results. I do not care about the "explantions" provided by amny audiophiles companies , they are usually Marketing Bovine Manure...

So that I understand your point. What hypes you think are placed on Power conditionner, what about their inclusion in a system is true or Not?

I will answer you and then I am through with this thread. It was started as nothing more than a attack.

Here is a link to PSA http://psaudio.com/products/premier_power_plant.asp

Now they claim on that page some things.
1 Better Bass. Really? How? In everyones system?

2 Nano crystalsomething filters. Ok then what freq do they filter? what range?

3 Protection for everything connected. Protection from what? Some may read that and think they have lightning strike protection or surge protection for the gear. Yet in PSAs forums they have said they offer zero protection.


4 Lowers distortion by 10 times. 10 times what?

5 They say in a paragraph that they offer true surge protection. Yet when someone lost some gear to a surge they offered no help no fix and said no gear can do that.Even though on the webpage on the PS site for the product they claimed full protection from lightning.

6 It offes clean wave which purifies your gear attached to it. Really? How? What measurements do they have to show this?

I could go on but I wont. Yesterday the FTC fined makers of diet pills, I can only hope these guys are next.

They offer all these things yet when asked for measurements and what its based on all they offer up is well it works just listen.

In response to the post above this I would still say that a power conditioner is not the solution. There are correct and easy simple cheap ways to iso gear from each other. Also if he needs a 20 amp circuit then a power conditioner is not in any way the answer. He needs 20 full amps, not a band aid like he said these things are.

It was started as nothing more than a attack.Damn straight it was. But of course, now that PSAudio is quoting him on the product page, I won't be surprised if he doubles down on you.

What's funny though is that with the hype stripped out, it looks like a pretty slick piece of equipment, both in looks and practical functionality.

EDIT: I did a little googling and found that nanocrystalline material is relatively new (i.e., 10-15 years in the research community, <5 in products) but in not uncommon use in power filtering, GFCI, etc. Some web pages:

http://www.vacuumschmelze.de/dynamic/en/home/researchampinnovation/materialsdesign/nanocrystallinesoftmagneticmaterials.php
http://www.made-in-china.com/china-products/productviewTeCxyfbJOQcI/Nanocrystalline-Core.html
http://www.psaudio.com/newsletters/11-06.asp

My opinion is that if a sound system, be it car, home or pro is designed PROPERLY, from the equipment design itself, the power supplying the equipment, grounding, adequate power and speakers for the application, room treatment, etc, then a power conditioner isn't required.

Unfortunately, very few are, even amongst the "rational", non-tweak companies. The pin 1 problem is just one example. Another example: how many coax digital inputs today use isolation transformers?

--Andre

topic closed

topic closed

I guess not :rolleyes:

ooops