In the new CED for today, Andy Parsons, official Blu-ray Disc Association spokeman had some words about the dual layer in their article discussing LG and Warner's recent announcements. There were also comments from Microsoft.

Here are some excerpts:

...

The THD flipper will have Blu-ray and HD DVD content on either side, either as single- or dual layer configurations. As such, we're told there'll be no capacity constraints to limit bonus material and interactive features

...

LG's combo will feature a single drive for Blu-ray and HD DVD playback that was developed by the Hitachi-LG Data Storage joint venture, we're told.

...

The Blu-ray camp took LG's announcement in stride. "We're pleased to have yet another Blu-ray player coming into the market, which will bring the total to seven individual players -- including PS3 -- that consumers can choose from," said Pioneer's Andy Parsons in his role as BDA spokesman. "At the same time, we think that the deciding factor in favor of Blu-ray continues to be our superior content support from seven of eight Hollywood studios, five of which are unique to Blu-ray Disc. The availability of a dual format player is not likely to change this equation at all in our view," Parsons said.

...

HD DVD backer Microsoft seemed ebullient. "In the event a dual player is released this year, we believe HD DVD will be in a favorable position because HD DVD discs are easier to produce, less expensive to manufacture and contain the most advanced interactive capabilities," said Kevin Collins, Microsoft's HD DVD evangelist.

As for THD, Collins told us Microsoft hadn't been "officially briefed" by Warner, but only received "high-level details" about it before the Thurs. announcement. "However, if we look at what Warner has done to date with their same titles on BD and HD DVD, the HD DVD titles will continue to have more features on them," Collins said. "For instance, all the HD DVD Warner titles have bookmarking, title timeline, zoom and Dolby Digital Plus, whereas the equivalent Warner Blu-ray titles do not have those features. Again, this is due to the fact that BD does not have mandatory support in the hardware to support these features," he said. "So, if we were to look at the marketplace today, HD DVD still would have the advantage because the players are cheaper, and the titles have more features. If consumers were wary of being 'burned' they could easily buy these THD titles, and go with the substantially cheaper players and play the HD DVD side of the disc that has more features," Collins said. "It seems obvious with those features and price points that the advantage would be to HD DVD."

It's quite a lengthy article and the whole of it can't be posted, but hopefully these excerpts give you the main course...

-Looks like the BDA isn't expecting any studio defections to neutrality (despite rumors of Lion's Gate popping up) "at all" in their view despite the recent dual-format annoucements

-HD DVD is happier than Blu-ray seemingly about the LG player

-The Warner disc is a dual-layer flipper, so 30GB/50GB


Other things mentioned in the article:

-apparantly, Sony wasn't briefed on the Warner THD disc annoucement, and the only studio that was told details about it is Paramount

-Hitachi expects to release a Blu-ray product before committing to a dual-format player (which they have the technology ready for)

-Thompson/RCA isn't planning and Blu-ray or HD DVD players for 2007

-The patents for Warner's disc will be up for open licensing like other technologies.

-HP may release a dual-format PC with supplies from the Hitachi-LG joint venture that's going to make the LG dual format player

Nice to see Hitachi making steps into the CE industry again (they're a highly underrated company).

At least from recent announcements we now understand why Warner Home Video is so gung-ho about HD DVD but the corporate parent Time Warner is so strongly in favor of neutrality. The corporate parent had another division that developed the ultimate format-neutral release format.

Given that Warner is using VC1 for both formats I doubt we will ever see a 30/50 disc.

Given that Warner is using VC1 for both formats I doubt we will ever see a 30/50 disc. If they use VC-1 a 25GB Blu-ray side would fit most content, at lower cost.

I wonder what replication plant will make these THD shiny disc's?

Warner used go-to-partner Cinram to test the THD proof of concept.

Don't expect 30/50 flippers. Not going to happen anytime soon. At best, if THD takes hold, we'll have 15/25 and 30/25.

I have my doubts...the replication challenges/costs seem so way out of whack with the marketing intent it's not even funny. The fact that MSFT only got "high level" briefings at the last minute only adds to the intrigue.

At the same time, we think that the deciding factor in favor of Blu-ray continues to be our superior content support from seven of eight Hollywood studios, five of which are unique to Blu-ray Disc. The availability of a dual format player is not likely to change this equation at all in our view."

Not that I expect the contrary, but where exactly in this quote does it state that none of the 5 exclusive studios would announce neutrality? It confirms the current situation but says nothing about future plans.

About 30g/50g THD disc's, can someone explain the legal issues of something like this, perhaps an insider?

First I thought only Sony currently has the ability to publish DL50 discs, if this is so I'm sure there not willing to put an HDDVD side on anything

Second is with HDDVD and the DVD Forum (is Warner part of the DVD Forum?) would bundling a HD DVD title with a format that does not comply with the DVD Forums standards such as Blu-ray go against any rules?

Not sure but I would think all sides would need to agree on something like this but hopefully someone else can clarify it?

But I am glad to hear that they will be 30/50 g disks and not 25/15g disks or something like that but I'd assume everything still will only be encoded once and to the lowest limiting denominator of each of the formats

Thompson/RCA is not producing a BD player? I'm heartbroken.

About 30g/50g THD disc's, can someone explain the legal issues of something like this, perhaps an insider?

First I thought only Sony currently has the ability to publish DL50 discs, if this is so I'm sure there not willing to put an HDDVD side on anything
I'd be shocked if a 30/50 disc was actually released. It's more likely to be 30/25, even though the technology permits 30/50.

And even then, 30/25 releases would be in low numbers, because quite frankly the technology seems dead in the water before it has even started.

Warner used go-to-partner Cinram to test the THD proof of concept.


I'm told Cinram had a BD50 line installed in November (Panasonic spin-coat based).

I have my doubts...the replication challenges/costs seem so way out of whack with the marketing intent it's not even funny. The fact that MSFT only got "high level" briefings at the last minute only adds to the intrigue.

Yeah. Seems all the same old anti-BD arguments hold true here. Warner/Cinram isn't going to magically make a combo w/BD cheap.

"We think HD DVD is strong because of the cost of making discs"

Enter Warner planning to make the most expensive discs of all!

Gary

I wonder what the ratio of coasters to valid shiny discs would be with the THD concept?

It would have to be SL25 for Blu-ray, I mean if economical production of DL50 is hard how hard is it when trying to slap DL30 HD DVD on the other side?

The only point of this disc is that it saves retailers from stocking both formats. Sony is not going to use it. Universal is most likely not going to use it. So we possibly have two, WHV and Paramount, of the seven major studios that are going to use it.

Being a Blu-ray owner I am not buying them unless, the disc features(dual layer, loseless audio, etc) are the same for both formats and the producers eat the extra replication cost. I am not paying an additional $10-15 for peace of mind.

I'd wonder what the yields to something like this is currently

HD DVD backer Microsoft seemed ebullient. "In the event a dual player is released this year, we believe HD DVD will be in a favorable position because HD DVD discs are easier to produce, less expensive to manufacture and contain the most advanced interactive capabilities," said Kevin Collins, Microsoft's HD DVD evangelist.

And the new dual layer discs from Warner are going to be what?...Cheaper? The cost to the consumer is already going to be at least $5 per disc. So much for HD-DVD's price advantage. HD-DVD, we're not better, we're cheaper! Ugh!

If they try to make a 30/50 flipper disc, it's going to make the DVD-18 defect rate(25%, at least at the beginning) look like a stunning success.

Woah,
are we sure it's a 50/30GB disk?
I thought that was impossible considering focal length and media thickness.

About 30g/50g THD disc's, can someone explain the legal issues of something like this, perhaps an insider?

First I thought only Sony currently has the ability to publish DL50 discs, if this is so I'm sure there not willing to put an HDDVD side on anything

Second is with HDDVD and the DVD Forum (is Warner part of the DVD Forum?) would bundling a HD DVD title with a format that does not comply with the DVD Forums standards such as Blu-ray go against any rules?

Not sure but I would think all sides would need to agree on something like this but hopefully someone else can clarify it?Nope. As long as a company has a)licensed the format, b)pays their royalties, and c)their product is compliant with the spec, they can add whatever other features they want. So they can't release a combo disc if it doesn't meet the specs of either format (i.e. too high an error rate), but there's nothing preventing them from adding other features which don't impact compliance with the spec.

Also, anyone can get the license (if you pay your money), so if there was some provision which specifically forbade release of a combo disc or a universal player (as has been suggested elsewhere), this prohibition would be apparent. You don't have to know the secret passcode and make it past the bouncer at the door to get access to the specs!

wow .. a CE spoke person announcing business plans for ALL Blu-ray exclusive studios .. :D ..

Not that I expect the contrary, but where exactly in this quote does it state that none of the 5 exclusive studios would announce neutrality? It confirms the current situation but says nothing about future plans.While it doesn't specifically say that, it sure would be embarrassing to make these comments and then have a studio go neutral a few days later. If nobody announces neutrality by the big HD DVD thing that I think is on Sunday, then I wouldn't expect anybody to go neutral this month.

--Darin

I wouldn't buy the dual format disc. I won't even buy the combo discs they make today.
They cost too much! Who does Warner expect will purchase this new technology?

-Byrd

Not that I expect the contrary, but where exactly in this quote does it state that none of the 5 exclusive studios would announce neutrality? It confirms the current situation but says nothing about future plans.Exactly my thoughts. Clearly the BDA isn't going to be bragging that their supporters are having second thoughts (I can't imagine they're not!) and just like other denials that happen so frequently when companies are asked pre-show or pre-annoucement, they're not going to spill the beans before they want to spill the beans. It is their announcement and it's going to happen when they want it...anything until that point is speculation.

Exactly my thoughts. Clearly the BDA isn't going to be bragging that their supporters are having second thoughts (I can't imagine they're not!) and just like other denials that happen so frequently when companies are asked pre-show or pre-annoucement, they're not going to spill the beans before they want to spill the beans. It is their announcement and it's going to happen when they want it...anything until that point is speculation.

Good point. Its seems as thought the BD camp is spilling all there beans before CES. Is this a good thing?

Nope. As long as a company has a)licensed the format, b)pays their royalties, and c)their product is compliant with the spec, they can add whatever other features they want. So they can't release a combo disc if it doesn't meet the specs of either format (i.e. too high an error rate), but there's nothing preventing them from adding other features which don't impact compliance with the spec.

Also, anyone can get the license (if you pay your money), so if there was some provision which specifically forbade release of a combo disc or a universal player (as has been suggested elsewhere), this prohibition would be apparent. You don't have to know the secret passcode and make it past the bouncer at the door to get access to the specs!
Would BDA grant them a logo license, even though no specification in BDA covers this combo?

BTW, I don't know the equiv. answer for DVD Forum either :).

Also, anyone can get the license (if you pay your money), so if there was some provision which specifically forbade release of a combo disc or a universal player (as has been suggested elsewhere), this prohibition would be apparent. You don't have to know the secret passcode and make it past the bouncer at the door to get access to the specs!

The technical specifications are there, but not the contractual obligations that licensees are required to adhere to. I wouldn't expect this information to be public, but if it is, I'd appreciate a link to it. I've looked over the BDA website, as well as the licensing website, and it's not in an obvious place if it's there.

Top representatives of both formats have publicly denied that there was any licensing prohibition against combo players. [This was at a conference in SFO this fall, I can find the news article if anyone doubts my word, but it has been referred to numerous times on this forum. Andy Parsons was the BDA rep, I don't remember the name of the Toshiba rep.]

Whether this addresses the issue of a logo license on a combo disk is another matter, but my suspicion is that all licensing is open enough to allow this provided it can be demonstrated to work.

I somehow doubt that either the BDA or the DVDForum is eager to annoy Warners. :)

We are dealing with some very big companies here (Sony, Toshiba, Microsoft, Warners), and I happen to believe that they are a lot more responsible than many people give them credit for. They also do a lot of business together even while they in other ways compete.

The modern world seems to have gone for open licensing in a reasonable way. The days when RCA ruled patents in the electronics industry are over.

Hitachi expects to release a Blu-ray product before committing to a dual-format player (which they have the technology ready for)

-Thompson/RCA isn't planning and Blu-ray or HD DVD players for 2007

-The patents for Warner's disc will be up for open licensing like other technologies.

-HP may release a dual-format PC with supplies from the Hitachi-LG joint venture that's going to make the LG dual format player

No RCA Tosh clone of the A2? I'm would consider a silver HD-DVD standalone.
I wonder if anyone (Paramount?) would license Warner's discs...

Hitachi's solo release sounds almost certainly like a PC drive that would go with the HP/LG projects, too...

They also do a lot of business together even while they in other ways compete.


Don't you just love the art of collusion....

Warner used go-to-partner Cinram to test the THD proof of concept.

Don't expect 30/50 flippers. Not going to happen anytime soon. At best, if THD takes hold, we'll have 15/25 and 30/25.

I have my doubts...the replication challenges/costs seem so way out of whack with the marketing intent it's not even funny. The fact that MSFT only got "high level" briefings at the last minute only adds to the intrigue.

HD-DVD/DVD flippers cost 2.5 times that of DVD.. Wonder what the BD/HD flippers are going to cost . ;)

b2b

HD-DVD/DVD flippers cost 2.5 times that of DVD.. Wonder what the BD/HD flippers are going to cost . ;)

b2b

Well, if Fox ever makes them I'd expect MSRP to be about $69.99.

BDA pre-CES comment: 5 studios to remain Blu-ray exclusive

Is that the actual phrase used or is the interpretation. Because the quoted passages give a slightly different meaning ....

my headline as interpreted by the Andy Parson phrase

BDA is going into CES with the assumption that they will keep their 5 studios exclusive.

my headline as interpreted by the Andy Parson phrase

Exactly. My suggestion for titles is to not use interpretations and paraphrasing - when direct quotes are available. Ofcourse, all commentary is welcome in the post itself ...

This is especially true when it is presented as a PRE CES comment - that implies a direct quote.

Personally, I would have guessed that all exclusive studios on both sides would stay exclusive at CES.

A move (to HD DVD) by maybe one studio could occur, but I doubt it. (BTW, the pr0n guys don't count that much IMO.) I still it's too early in the game for the big guns on either side to admit defeat.

OTOH, we did see at least one move on the manufacturing side with LG, and I wouldn't necessarily be surprised to see another, although I wouldn't count on it.

Would BDA grant them a logo license, even though no specification in BDA covers this combo?Why not? If I manufacture a toaster with a DVD drive I don't need a toaster/DVD-ROM license from the DVD Forum, do I? I just the DVD playback license, the fact that the product does other things as well should be beyond the scope of the license. Would it not be the same with a combo disc? As long as the Blu-ray portion of the disc meets all the required specs I don't see how the format license can dictate what other features the product supports (assuming they don't compromise the Blu-ray features)...

The technical specifications are there, but not the contractual obligations that licensees are required to adhere to. I wouldn't expect this information to be public, but if it is, I'd appreciate a link to it. I've looked over the BDA website, as well as the licensing website, and it's not in an obvious place if it's there.I don't believe it's public as in freely accessible; you need to work through the process described here (http://www.blu-raydisc.info/flow/flow_page.htm).

OTOH, we did see at least one move on the manufacturing side with LG, and I wouldn't necessarily be surprised to see another, although I wouldn't count on it.
Yep, LG have moved from neutrality to neutrality. So far no change...

Yep, LG have moved from neutrality to neutrality. So far no change...

Actually the BDA have listed LG as a BD player CE for awhile. So in fact they went from BD to Combo.

Which is big news.

LG have been on both lists and showcased both BD and HD DVD players at last years CES. So, no change...

You know, I was just passing over this thread again, having read it earlier, when I realized how deceptive the thread title is.

Anyone who hasn't read the thread would think that Five studios stood up before CES and said they "will remain BR exclusive".

But that hasn't happened. All that's happened is that Sony made a statement on something else, within which they said effectively "five out of 8 ain't bad".

I think some folks are taking this to mean that there will not be any surprises at the show... let's not count the chickens just yet, folks.


Yep, LG have moved from neutrality to neutrality. So far no change...LG wasn't neutral before, they were BR. I suppose when Disney supports HD DVD you'll say they were always neutral too? :)

You know, I was just passing over this thread again, having read it earlier, when I realized how deceptive the thread title is.Wow, if that isn't the pot calling the kettle black. You're pointing out what he considers deceptive text? That's the definition of your HDnot site.
LG wasn't neutral before, they were BR.Did LG not show an HD-DVD player last year, the HD-199, or is that figment of everyone else's imagination? How could they show an HD-DVD player yet not have been neutral?

Did LG not show an HD-DVD player last year, the HD-199, or is that figment of everyone else's imagination? How could they show an HD-DVD player yet not have been neutral?Yep, LG have moved from neutrality to neutrality. So far no change...
Well, the BD fans can't have it both ways.

Last year BD fans gloated how LG went from neutral to BD-only. In light of recent news that LG has officially gone back to neutral, the BD fans are now claiming that LG's recent BD-only-ness doesn't count.

Which BD fans were gloating over LG moving from a neutral possition? If they did so they were wrong, as are the few HD DVD fans suggesting they've changed stance now.

Well, the BD fans can't have it both ways.

Last year BD fans gloated how LG went from neutral to BD-only. In light of recent news that LG has officially gone back to neutral, the BD fans are now claiming that LG's recent BD-only-ness doesn't count.
Actually, LG's position never changed last year. It was their public position which did :).

One doesn't develop a universal player overnight....

Still doesn't bode well for BDA folks when some of their members don't dare mention the other format until they are ready to launch a product. They have to think who else is lurking under those bushes...

For some reason I am sure there are others based on Amir's comments...

Still doesn't bode well for BDA folks when some of their members don't dare mention the other format until they are ready to launch a product. They have to think who else is lurking under those bushes...

Absolutely.

This whole announcement of universals, withdrawals and an announcement just a month before release does not pass the smell test.

Either contractual obligations or major arm twisting is my guess ...

Ofcourse BD supporters are welcome to give plausible explanation ...

I still it's too early in the game for the big guns on either side to admit defeat.

Whatever.. I know they have that "Corporate Ego" to sustain but the only real only defeat a company has is when they're not bringing home the dough and have to come to the government for loans to fix their broken companies.

I don't think that Disney and Fox are going to stay one sided for much longer. I mean c'mon, some major shareholder is going to get pissed and fire somebody for getting them into this mess.

Bottom absolute line. PROFIT. BD is one medium, why not reap thte benefits of the two formats, plus HDDVD is outselling BD.. Why not change?

Whatever.. I know they have that "Corporate Ego" to sustain but the only real only defeat a company has is when they're not bringing home the dough and have to come to the government for loans to fix their broken companies.

I don't think that Disney and Fox are going to stay one sided for much longer. I mean c'mon, some major shareholder is going to get pissed and fire somebody for getting them into this mess.

Bottom absolute line. PROFIT. BD is one medium, why not reap thte benefits of the two formats, plus HDDVD is outselling BD.. Why not change?

I dont foresee FOX to do so so soon though - their ego is still hurt with the BD+ rejection. Wounds take time to heal :p .. Disney maybe

I dont foresee FOX to do so so soon though - their ego is still hurt with the BD+ rejection. Wounds take time to heal :p .. Disney maybe

You mean the bd+ that they are not using on BD now ?

You mean the bd+ that they are not using on BD now ?

:D but yes D:

anyhow here is the supporting logos for both BD and HD DVD

its soooo funny that BDA is including record companies in their support list just to justify the inclusion of Universal Music (with has a similar logo to Universal Pictures) to mislead the public to think that its Universal Pictures ..

support is VERY IMPORTANT to BD I might say .. EXTREMELY IMPORTANT - as that is the only weapon they can use to intimidate consumers to walk the BD path ;)

:D :D

http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/7826/bdadd6.jpg

see the similarty ;)

HD DVD supporting companies

http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/1172/hddvdgq0.jpg

Actually, LG's position never changed last year. It was their public position which did :).

One doesn't develop a universal player overnight....

Still doesn't bode well for BDA folks when some of their members don't dare mention the other format until they are ready to launch a product. They have to think who else is lurking under those bushes...
Indeed. I still wonder if this is the reason why that VP quit.


This whole announcement of universals, withdrawals and an announcement just a month before release does not pass the smell test.

Either contractual obligations or major arm twisting is my guess ...
I had been guessing that there were juicy deals behind the scenes, but I don't expect to get the details on this any time soon.

Nothing like big business, eh!? Oh, and including that Universal logo, I mean, how low will you go!

Actually, LG's position never changed last year. It was their public position which did :).

One doesn't develop a universal player overnight....

Still doesn't bode well for BDA folks when some of their members don't dare mention the other format until they are ready to launch a product.Umm, Amir, have you heard of "anti-trust" laws? Oh, forgive me, there is ample evidence that anti-trust isn't a topic which Microsoft employees are well-versed in. Nonetheless, it would be a flagrant violation of anti-trust laws for LG to discuss unannounced product plans within the BDA, ignoring the fact it would also be a stupid move to tell half a dozen of their largest competitors what they're planning to bring to market before they're ready to announce it to the world.

Umm, Amir, have you heard of "anti-trust" laws? Oh, forgive me, there is ample evidence that anti-trust isn't a topic which Microsoft employees are well-versed in. Nonetheless, it would be a flagrant violation of anti-trust laws for LG to discuss unannounced product plans within the BDA, ignoring the fact it would also be a stupid move to tell half a dozen of their largest competitors what they're planning to bring to market before they're ready to announce it to the world.
I think you are barking at the wrong tree :). No one is saying that the BDA as a group, cornered LG in a room, and beat them senseless until they changed their public stance. No one is that silly, nor is that what is required to change one's public stance. If you can't think of alternatives, then I say you should work for a CE company for a while.

As to AT law, yes, we have experience with it. That is why I shiver when I hear what some other people do. You would never get me to do them in a million years.

And funny how you claim to know what Samsung and Sony are developing half the time, yet all of a sudden, everyone is mum inside BDA.

Let me ask you this, how come we know what these companies are working on then? Are you saying we are more connected to core CE companies inside BDA than other BDA companies? If so, well, that is a compliment which I happily accept :)!

Putting all of this aside, what is your theory then? How did LG go from having a product, then not having it, to having it now? This is what people want to know.

Wasn't the LG player at last year's CES exactly the same except for the different logos? :D

As far as I can remember, they were BD-only to Neutral to BD-only and now apparently to Neutral again. I'll bet they don't come out with anything other than the PC drive for 2007. ;)

HD DVD supporting companies

http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/1172/hddvdgq0.jpg


LG's logo should be added to this now and hopefully Lionsgate and Disney too...:D

I'll bet they don't come out with anything other than the PC drive for 2007. ;)
If that happens, they they need Talk to give them a lecture on AT law. :D

No one is saying that the BDA as a group, cornered LG in a room, and beat them senseless until they changed their public stance.I was referring to your comment "Still doesn't bode well for BDA folks when some of their members don't dare mention the other format until they are ready to launch a product." Of course they aren't going to share with the BDA as a group nor their direct competitors their plans to release an HD-DVD player. They almost certainly shared that information under NDA with other partners or vendors required to build the player (i.e. chipset vendors, studios), but no one will be able to disclose that information without violating their NDA. So it would be a shock if anyone on the Blu-ray side was aware of LG's plans, or at least admits that they they were aware of it.
And funny how you claim to know what Samsung and Sony are developing half the time, yet all of a sudden, everyone is mum inside BDA. Not sure specifically what you're referring to, but I can't think of a single piece of company-specific information I've learned in the context of the BDA. If I know something about Samsung's or Sony's player it's as a result of my relationship with them as an employee of my company, not as a member of the BDA.
Let me ask you this, how come we know what these companies are working on then? Are you saying we are more connected to core CE companies inside BDA than other BDA companies?Must I state the obvious? Because it's highly unlikely anyone would attempt to build an HD-DVD player without some sort of professional relationship with Microsoft. Clearly if one is building a product which decodes VC-1 or implements HDi (to name two obvious technologies) then there are many possible reasons why one would contact Microsoft.
Putting all of this aside, what is your theory then? How did LG go from having a product, then not having it, to having it now? This is what people want to know.I'd say they are announcing plans to release a universal player now because they see an opportunity to occupy a niche which no one else has yet claimed. LG doesn't have the reputation in HT circles to credibly try to compete on the high-end, and market economics may not be particularly favorable trying to compete solely on price, so a universal player looks like a reasonable strategy if you can actually pull of the Herculean engineering required to make it work and still have some prayer of selling it above cost. Even better if you don't see particularly strong prospects to establish yourself as a leader on the Blu-ray side (given the very strong competition). And on the HD-DVD side Toshiba isn't leaving much room for other name-brand CE vendors to compete (clearly a double-edged sword, since the Toshiba-only approach has clearly meant far less visibility for HD-DVD at retail) and there is the ever-present threat of the Chinese ODM's driving any profits out of the market which might have existed to begin with.

As for why they initially announced a combo player and then retracted, perhaps they were floating a trial balloon to see what the reaction would be. Or perhaps they were convinced by other Blu-ray supporters not to do so based on the expectation that HD-DVD's days were clearly numbered. Given Microsoft's various relationships with LG, I assume you may well have concrete background on LG's initial combo-player announcement. Care to share?

Must I state the obvious? Because it's highly unlikely anyone would attempt to build an HD-DVD player without some sort of professional relationship with Microsoft.
Well, you may be surprised to know that we have had exactly zero, and I mean zero involvement with LG’s product development. They have developed the entire thing by themselves.

Clearly if one is building a product which decodes VC-1 or implements HDi (to name two obvious technologies) then there are many possible reasons why one would contact Microsoft.
Not true. The NEC decoder for example inside second gen Toshiba was designed with zero involvement from us. Ditto for PC vendors implementing HD DVD interactivity. People take the spec and implement it. Of course, we are here to help but we are not always asked.

I'd say they are announcing plans to release a universal player now because they see an opportunity to occupy a niche which no one else has yet claimed.
That is not the question. The question is why announce, retract, then announce, etc.

LG doesn't have the reputation in HT circles to credibly try to compete on the high-end, and market economics may not be particularly favorable trying to compete solely on price, so a universal player looks like a reasonable strategy if you can actually pull of the Herculean engineering required to make it work and still have some prayer of selling it above cost.
I hope every BDA company reads this. You all love people in your camp while they are exclusive. Until... they do something with HD DVD. If it is HP, they become our you know what. And LG all of a sudden is less than a capable CE company unable to compete on price? Where have you been? You think they have less of an ability compete on price than say, Panasonic?

And what will you say if others step up to the plate? This road doesn't go far, before you are out of friends.


Even better if you don't see particularly strong prospects to establish yourself as a leader on the Blu-ray side (given the very strong competition).
Poor LG folks. Boy, they must be happy to be taking a fresh breath outside of BDA then. Send them all our way. We will accept them with open arms.

And on the HD-DVD side Toshiba isn't leaving much room for other name-brand CE vendors to compete (clearly a double-edged sword, since the Toshiba-only approach has clearly meant far less visibility for HD-DVD at retail) and there is the ever-present threat of the Chinese ODM's driving any profits out of the market which might have existed to begin with.
So no Chinese makers for BD products? Why is that? Are people withholding specs or other know how from them? If not, why are not going to produce low cost BD products? I thought you said everyone knows about AT law in your circles or do they think it doesn’t apply to Chinese companies?

As for why they initially announced a combo player and then retracted, perhaps they were floating a trial balloon to see what the reaction would be. Or perhaps they were convinced by other Blu-ray supporters not to do so based on the expectation that HD-DVD's days were clearly numbered.
Ah, so you now think there was a possibility they told other BDA companies about their plans! Didn’t you just say you all don’t talk to each other until the day of the announcement?

Given Microsoft's various relationships with LG, I assume you may well have concrete background on LG's initial combo-player announcement. Care to share?
Nope. Enough has been said already.

Talkstr8t / Amir, just wanted to say that I enjoy reading your little battles. It's nice how you manage to disagree on almost all accounts and really fight the other one, yet you're managing to get along without getting too hostile (well, most of the time :)). I also like how you are not shyed away from arguments. Some other insiders seem to avoid all conflicts. So please go on. It's not always easy for us non-insiders to extract the full truth from your battles, but I think your arguments really help to get a glimpse about what's going on behind the scenes sometimes.

Amir, you're trying to put far too many words in my mouth which I simply did not say.LG all of a sudden is less than a capable CE company unable to compete on price? Where have you been? You think they have less of an ability compete on price than say, Panasonic?My quote is "market economics may not be particularly favorable trying to compete solely on price". This says nothing about LG, it says the current CE market doesn't favor major vendors who try to compete solely on price since there's almost always someone else who can do it cheaper. Which is one of the reasons for Toshiba's lackluster economic performance the last few years, no?
So no Chinese makers for BD products? Why is that? Are people withholding specs or other know how from them? If not, why are not going to produce low cost BD products?I never said no Chinese makers, but the Chinese ODM's have figured prominently into HD-DVD's plans from early on. A race to the bottom might benefit consumers short-term, but it certainly doesn't provide much incentive for the top-tier CE vendors to invest in building the next innovation, and I don't expect to see much innovation from the ODM's.
Ah, so you now think there was a possibility they told other BDA companies about their plans! Didn’t you just say you all don’t talk to each other until the day of the announcement?Can you not see the distinction between collaborating with partners versus colluding with competitors? I said it would be an anti-trust violation to alert your competitors to future product plans in advance of public announcement. Collaborating with partners clearly doesn't meet this criteria. I'm suggesting Disney, Fox, or Sony Pictures (all proponents of a single format) could certainly have sold LG on the idea that releasing a combo player would only prolong the format war but wouldn't change the outcome.

Amir, it appears to me you often make responses like these for the sport of it (like playing chess). If so, for the sake of both of our sanity during our undoubtedly busy CES schedules, may I suggest a suspension of the match?

eh sounds about right regarding LG. w/o any acrimony or care about their fomat stance, they're not thought of as "high end" by anyone.

So, I wonder if any Chinese players will show up at CES. However, IIRC, they often don't show up at CES even if they are releasing something in North America. Is that correct?


Umm, Amir, have you heard of "anti-trust" laws? Oh, forgive me, there is ample evidence that anti-trust isn't a topic which Microsoft employees are well-versed in. Nonetheless, it would be a flagrant violation of anti-trust laws for LG to discuss unannounced product plans within the BDA, ignoring the fact it would also be a stupid move to tell half a dozen of their largest competitors what they're planning to bring to market before they're ready to announce it to the world.
Geez, let's not go over the top or anything.


eh sounds about right regarding LG. w/o any acrimony or care about their fomat stance, they're not thought of as "high end" by anyone.
That is a reasonable statement. That said, I have been perfectly satisfied by LG's PC products. In home theatre electronics, I would not have a problem buying an LG player, although I would be less likely buy an LG TV as my primary TV. However, I would still consider one nonetheless.

Brand names are meaning less to me these days, and I judge a product more by its features and reviews. While the el cheapo players are often problematic, I have many friends who are quite satisfied with their LG consumer electronics products.

Yes it's true that they are not the type to buy boutique players, but boutique players are in a different market than what is needed to ensure the success of one format or another (or both).

Umm, Amir, have you heard of "anti-trust" laws? Oh, forgive me, there is ample evidence that anti-trust isn't a topic which Microsoft employees are well-versed in.


Is it my imagination, or is every BD "Insider" on this forum completely obnoxious and arrogant in their posts? Between you and the Sony cronie paidgeek, there's enough threats, insults, and obnoxious comments to fill the forum. If you folks think you're setting the right example for the format you support, then I suggest trying a different approach. Sony and the BDA already have enough negative press and poor consumer satisfaction polls online -- why add to the disdain?

Is it my imagination, or is every BD "Insider" on this forum completely obnoxious and arrogant in their posts? If you folks think you're setting the right example for the format you support, then I suggest trying a different approach. Sony and the BDA already have enough negative press and poor consumer satisfaction polls online -- why add to the disdain?Perhaps you haven't spent much time here, but Amir and I have a special relationship which occasionally requires adding a bit of sarcasm or negativity. I don't think you'll find the majority of my posts use that tone, but I appreciate your feedback.

Perhaps you haven't spent much time here, but Amir and I have a special relationship which occasionally requires adding a bit of sarcasm or negativity. I don't think you'll find the majority of my posts use that tone, but I appreciate your feedback.
Does that mean there will be a cage match between you and Amir down the road? :D Seriously though I love it when you two get going on a subject it is entertaining reading. I often wonder how the two of you find enough time to get work done and debate on here.

Sadly, my time here mostly comes out of sleep time. I don't know how much longer I can keep it up (or convince my wife I'm not downstairs having an affair via IM), though - hopefully the format war will end soon so I can reclaim my nights!

Heck I think you should this at work since you would get paid for it there and it is work related (Ok, that is a stretch...). That way when you get home you can actually sleep with your wife and not be on here. You may even get some extra curricular activities out of going to bed with your wife. ;)