Update

I strongly recommend you start on page 3 of this thread, where I re-hosted the images and summarized the story so far. There may be other details of interest on the first two pages, but the core is summarized and continues on page 3. Try this link to take you right there (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11293005#post11293005).





Introduction

WOOPS; UPDATED AGAIN: Now it's one row of four seats, and the screen will be on the long wall. Why? A riser was going to be tough, given the 7 foot ceiling, and I didn't want to end up with any seats against a wall (back or side) for audio reasons (listener getting stuck with thumps and modes, and I'd prefer flexible room for speaker placement).

See the diagram at the end of this thread, and/or the dedicated topic on building the room within the garage (deciding on the approach).

UPDATED DESIGN LAYOUT: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=82761http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=82761

As was (I hope) inevitable, I have finally found myself in a position to create a real dedicated space for home theater.

From the time I got my first surround processor in the early 90s, to the time I got my first HDTV, in the late 90s, to the present, I have had various configurations in the places I have lived: several living rooms largely obscured with the need for a theater-like environment, a couple of bedrooms more dedicated but not quite right, and so on. Well, we finally bought our first house, and now I can take it to a whole new level.

In addition to sharing the progression of the space, here, I'm hoping to get some good advice about approaches, techniques, decisions, and so on. I've been a forum member for a while, read lots of tales, and recently picked up the home theater electronic book discussed/posted about in these parts, to get more up to speed on aspects of design that I have not needed to know about since until now I have been working in rented spaces where I couldn't change much.


The Beginning

The house we bought is a 1920s era cottage, with a detached garage. The detached garage will be the home theater.





Those two rolling doors on the front are the only access (other than a window) right now. The inside looks like this:

From the front:

http://preview.nathanh.photosite.com/%7Ephotos/tn/7556057_1024.ts1168190291000.jpg

You can see the rolling doors up above, here (above). Other than that, there are open rafters:

View towards the back:

http://preview.nathanh.photosite.com/%7Ephotos/tn/7556071_1024.ts1168190320000.jpg

View towards the front:

http://preview.nathanh.photosite.com/%7Ephotos/tn/7556074_1024.ts1168190331000.jpg

And here is the left side of the garage:

http://preview.nathanh.photosite.com/%7Ephotos/tn/7556062_1024.ts1168190300000.jpg

and the right side:

http://preview.nathanh.photosite.com/%7Ephotos/tn/7556067_1024.ts1168190309000.jpg

Yes, that is a window at the left side of the right wall (ie, towards the back of the garage):

http://preview.nathanh.photosite.com/%7Ephotos/tn/7556077_1024.ts1168190343000.jpg

I'll start a second post with some more information, that leads to some ideas I have, and some questions...

Details: The Space

The space is almost exactly 17' x 17' inside.

This is not great acoustically (square). And I'm thinking I'd prefer to have a little space outside the theater space proper for the equipment rack, and possibly for some storage of non theater stuff (a couple of bikes, perhaps). So I've been thinking of ways to make use of an internal wall. Here is a sketch.

http://preview.nathanh.photosite.com/~photos/tn/7557117_1024.ts1168193617000.jpg

The front garage doors are at the bottom of this sketch. The man-door on the lower right does not yet exist. (Quote for that is $480.) The window in the upper right is the existing window which I think I will black out but not remove (for fire safety). The wall the separates the entrance area from the theater proper does not exist yet (no quote yet) but may be problematic if it is too close to where the current garage doors slide to when open. On the other hand, I don't want to make the theater too small, and right now it's sketched out to barely fit three seats wide in the rear area. That's enough seating in terms of how many people fit (95% of the time) but maybe not enough space to allow space for the speakers in the "rear" (I prefer 5 matched speakers, direct radiating, rather than diffuse surround speakers). And I'm thinking the walls will be covered with thin black velvet somewhat transparent curtains, with acoustic treatments behind them, and cables run behind them, so I need a few inches on each side and back for that, as well.

One question becomes: Make the garage doors in-operable by removing the tracks they slide onto? We're not planning to ever use it as a garage, but the spouse wants it to still look like a garage (and I like the "low pro[file]" nature of leaving the look the same). If we disable the doors, we could remove tracks and gain space inside and maybe make the storage area smaller.

(Note that the second set of seats will be on a riser.)

I am NOT wed to this layout, but it's the best I could come up with that means the following needs:

1. Seats at least 4 people
2. One seat is in the perfect sweet spot
3. The equipment can be out of the room (except for a discrete piece that faces inward).
4 . There is a little storage outside of the theater space itself.
5. The left wall and the back wall of the garage a not suitable for the man-door, because they abut neighbor's fences -- and the front cannot accommodate a man door, given the presence of the two garage doors, though I could consider modifying that if it really made a lot of sense.


The Floor

The concrete floor is badly cracked, and no longer level.

The quote I got the replace the concrete floor with a new one, 4 inches deep, is $1854. I think I need to make sure that includes rebar, to help prevent the cracking and unleveling from re-occurring.

The height from the floor to where the cross beams for the ceilings begins needs to be measured again. My notes got misplaced. But I think it was 8 feet, which is not ideal. I cannot really raise the roof (though I am thinking about ways to make use of the open ceiling) but perhaps repouring the floor presents an opportunity to dig down 6 inches and increase the effective height of the space?



The Ceiling and Walls

Here's the good news: The roof itself is pretty good.

The ceiling has a skylight which will be blocked. The big question right now is do we drywall the ceiling as a cathedral style? The quote for doing it that way, and for drywalling the walls (pulling off the old stuff and putting on something new) is $4950.

I was thinking of removing the window, but I now think we block it out, but make it a removable block (from the inside) for fire safety.



The Electricity

There appears to be at least one 15 amp circuit dedicated to the garage, but more investigation is needed. What is sure, the wires from the house to the garage are hung from the room or each structure and run through the yard at about 6feet off the ground, through a few trees, which is totally crazy. So we need to put some conduit in the ground, and re-run the power. I'm thinking we should run two conduits: One for power, and one for everything else (2 coax RG6, 2 CAT6, phone, possibly HDMI and/or Component Video but more about that, later). Comments on the conduit and what is in it?

The contractor I've talked with about burying the cables has quoted a price of $2450 to do that. There is a 4 foot wide concrete walkway in the the path of the wire that will need to be torn up (but not replaced), but otherwise the path between the buildings is just 40 feet of dirt.

The power for the house is iffy. Most of the knob and tube that was once in the basement (crawl space) appears to have been replaced with romex over the years, but nothing in the main house appears grounded and I wonder whether there is knob and tube wiring in the walls. Luckily, we got avoid the house wiring and go straight out to the garage for the theater gear.

I'm thinking 2 15 amp and 1 20 amp circuit, dedicated for the garage, would be good. I want to estimate high, because I'd like to have the yard dug up before we move it -- but we won't be ready to complete all the garage work -> theater space by then. I think I definitely need to get the main panel (circuit breaker) for the house upgraded, since it's a 100 amp unit:

http://preview.nathanh.photosite.com/~photos/tn/7556035_1024.ts1168190248000.jpg

The garage itself will need to be rewired with the new power. The guy I've been getting quotes from recommended a subpanel at the garage. The cost of putting this in, and wiring outlets, is $1450.


Climate Control

Once it is insulated, heating it with an electric radiant heater could work okay. But cooling is another issue. I don't mind the ideal of a window-style air conditioner but placement and noise are a concern. Gotta think this one through, more.


Sound control, Aesthetics, Gear, etc

I'm not too worried (maybe I should be) about noise leakage. It's a detached structure, and once new insulation and drywall is in place, a couple of good doors, and that new internal wall, I think it'll be okay. Maybe some use of green glue for the new drywalling is a good idea, too....

But internally, I'll do acoustic treatments. Right now, I'm using some auralex absorbers on the ceiling of my living room theater --which has book shelves along the walls for diffusion, thick carpeting, and furniture. The new theater will need more dedicated treatment (I see Real Traps in my future)....

But, this gets into the realm of the mechanics, look and design of the internals, which I'll leave till later (a later post, and maybe a later phase of work). I just want to make sure, for now, that I don't paint myself into a corner with the first batch of structural changes to the space. Am I?

I also anticipate a few gear changes. My system now is built around a Sony Pearl, Matte White screen, HTPCs, HD-DVD, HD Dish PVR, Parasound amplification, Outlaw controller, and Magnepan speakers. The main changes are probably the controller, the screen (may got larger than my current 92 inch diag, may go for 2.35:1, and will definitely get a fixed wall screen instead of the retractable I have now) and possibly speakers (love the Maggies but may not be what I want in the new pace and may use a couple of them in the main house for two channel.) But more about gear, later.

A few observations. Looks like you have a good handle on what you've got in mind, which is a good starting point. I see you're getting quotes to do some things here, which again, is good, now go to home depot and do it yourself. :) Ripping out the current wallboard, adding a new door, burying conduit, etc. All things you can do yourself. As for electricity, i would investigate adding a sub-panel to the garage. One good amplifier will eat a 20A breaker alive (remember, 20A is set to trip at 16A realistically). As for the floor, how badly unlevel is it? If it's only 1/2 inch or so, just put a false floor in, looks like you have the room for such. I would do the cathederal style myself, just because i think it looks good, but it's ultimately up to you. (good place to hide speaker wires, mounts, projectors, etc.)

As for A/C, look into one of those "remote" A/C units. They're moderately cheap, unit outside, and this little box sits just up on the wall. AFAIK, you can put ductwork in attached to these as well, but don't hold me to that.

This is the route i'd go, personally. I would most definately try to do as much as you can by yourself. It's a good excuse to buy tools, sit in the garage with some friends drinking some cold drinks. :) You can even pre-hang all the wiring boxes yourself, that'll cut down quite a bit on the money.

Thanks for the observations. As you can surmise from the fact that I've been a renter until now, all this planning is based on what I have read and been told, rather than any experience with this stuff. I've managed to cobble together decent setups in spaces where I cannot make significant modifications but putting together the structure almost from scratch is a whole new ball game.

Question about sub-panels: Let's say I put in a 100 amp sub panel in the garage, that means I need to increase the capacity of my main panel by 100 amps, right, because it runs via that? Or does the subpanel bypass the main panel at the house? I'm hoping that latter is the case, because then I could avoid replacing the panel on the house.... the 100 amps the house has will be enough, since the big draw will be the home theater and a couple of media servers, our in the garage.

PS: By "remote AC" you do *not* mean something like this, right?

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=7772056&type=product&productCategoryId=pcmcat72000050023&id=1142290461796

As for the floor, how badly unlevel is it? If it's only 1/2 inch or so, just put a false floor in, looks like you have the room for such.

It's hard to see from the photos, but there are cracks in the middle running in a few directions, sometimes creating a ledge of a few inches from one part of the floor to another, in addition to tilting. One key concern I'd have with a false floor is loosing more height but also I'd worry about what happens when the floor moves more....

I would do the cathederal style myself, just because i think it looks good, but it's ultimately up to you. (good place to hide speaker wires, mounts, projectors, etc.)

This was roughly what I was thinking, but then I started to wonder whether the beams going across would look dumb. I don't think I can remove them, for structural reasons, though maybe the new interior wall could handle the structural stuff. But the more height I can garner, the better, I think.

----------

Doing the work myself: I'm sure I'll do a lot but there are some things I'd like to have assistance with.... both to make sure it goes right, and to get it into a condition where I can start to use it, even before it's finished, since I won't have a place for the projector and surround set up in the new house at all..... so I'll be without home theater until this place is minimally together! :)

----------

I'm also wondering whether I've got the best layout and use of space, given the size of the building. What do you think? Would you cram more seats in there? (For example.) Or make other changes to the approach?

Did some more measuring and it appears that while the items I put in my diagram will fit, the direct radiating speakers for the surround/rear will be literally inches from the ears of those in the left or right seat in the back row.

That's not so good.

I'm thinking that I cannot move the rows forward, since the front row is already about 1.25 screen widths from the screen (assuming a 92 inch diag 16x9 screen). So the options are:

Option A:

Move the side walls apart (ie, make the theater wider), and/or

Option B:

Use smaller chairs in row #2 (similar in effect to option "A" but also probably increases the space to the back wall as well -- a good thing).

Of course, option "B" means that those seats stop being luxury home theater seats and end of up being a row of more conventional movie theater seats like one sees in a local cineplex: Not recliners, no foot rest. (I'll try to post pictures of what I mean, later today, in case that's not a clear description.) This creates two classes of viewers (not great) though being the host that I am, the little lady and I would relegate ourselves to the back row when guests join us.... mostly :)

So, here are examples of the seats I'm thinking about for the second row, due to space limitations. Am I crazy? Should I be making the space larger, instead?

http://www.enhancedht.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/Falesandria.jpg

For reference, here is what will be in the front row, one of these chairs, and one of the chaise version:

http://www.la-z-boy.com/images/products/roomplanner/glamour/largeviews/482_4TP.jpg

(You can see the chaise version in the downloadable PDF from the la-z-boy web site (http://www.la-z-boy.com/pdf/configurations/482.pdf).)

You can see the chaise version in the downloadable PDF from the la-z-boy web site
Those chaise versions look pretty good. Do you know how much they sell'em for? Couldn't find pricing online.

I don't know, yet, but I plan to make a trip to la-z-boy soon and see. Definitely need to have one in the theater, since the little lady has a bad back and needs to recline fully when watching a movie.

Found a review of the la-z-boy seats that spoke in general about their MSRP:

"The suggested retail price of the dividing furniture pieces (including the wedge and console) ranges from $299 in fabric to $799 in leather. Prices for the seating furniture pieces (including the one- and two-arm recliners) range from $599 in fabric to $1,899 in leather with the power reclining option."

Nice to see another garage converter, there aren't too many of us - I'm converting 1/2 of a 4 car garage for my HT.



Sounds pretty steep to me - also, I would think you could burrow under that walkway and run the conduit under it if you wanted to keep it - I did that when running PVC for sprinklers under our sidewalk before - attach a thick length of PVC pipe to a garden hose, and use water pressure to "drill" a path under the walkway, then lay your pipe (conduit) into that path.

[QUOTE=goobenet]
As for A/C, look into one of those "remote" A/C units.


I think goobenet is referring to a "split A/C" unit - search Google, you'll find a number of options - basically the compressor part is separate and installed outside, the rest (fan and what not - the quieter part) is mounted inside. That's what I'm planning on using for my HT as well.

As far as layout, what I'm doing is using the "back wall" of the garage for my screen wall - about 2 feet away from the back wall, there will be a false wall with the screen and stage, front speakers, etc. - the garage door will be removed, framed in, and replaced with double entry doors. Maybe you could do something similar, this would get you to non-square, and you could hide the gear behind / alongside the screen.

Found a review of the la-z-boy seats that spoke in general about their MSRP:
"The suggested retail price of the dividing furniture pieces (including the wedge and console) ranges from $299 in fabric to $799 in leather. Prices for the seating furniture pieces (including the one- and two-arm recliners) range from $599 in fabric to $1,899 in leather with the power reclining option."
Let me know what you find out when you check'em out. I'm still in the market for some seating and these look very comfortable. I would go with cloth since I have dogs and don't want them tearing up expensive leather.

Nice to see another garage converter, there aren't too many of us - I'm converting 1/2 of a 4 car garage for my HT.



Sounds pretty steep to me - also, I would think you could burrow under that walkway and run the conduit under it if you wanted to keep it - I did that when running PVC for sprinklers under our sidewalk before - attach a thick length of PVC pipe to a garden hose, and use water pressure to "drill" a path under the walkway, then lay your pipe (conduit) into that path.



I think goobenet is referring to a "split A/C" unit - search Google, you'll find a number of options - basically the compressor part is separate and installed outside, the rest (fan and what not - the quieter part) is mounted inside. That's what I'm planning on using for my HT as well.

As far as layout, what I'm doing is using the "back wall" of the garage for my screen wall - about 2 feet away from the back wall, there will be a false wall with the screen and stage, front speakers, etc. - the garage door will be removed, framed in, and replaced with double entry doors. Maybe you could do something similar, this would get you to non-square, and you could hide the gear behind / alongside the screen.

Cool. Thanks for the tip about the split A/C unit. I was able to find some online and they do sound like a good solution -- and many can do heat as well as cooling. Very nice.

---

I need to get more clarity from the contractor about what I get for the $2450. If it really is only the digging and burying (and removal of the concrete walkway that we don't want, anyway) then I think he has to give us a better price. But we did talk about replacing the main circuit breaker panel to the house, which requires several more steps, and I'm beginning to think he is including that, as well as dealing with the hanging wires, etc.

----

Wow, you did those diagrams of your theater in your thread with SKETCH UP? I used that program once, to diagram some speaker stands. Gotta bust it out again for this!

Let me know what you find out when you check'em out. I'm still in the market for some seating and these look very comfortable. I would go with cloth since I have dogs and don't want them tearing up expensive leather.

I shall.

Wow, it looks like the contractor I found has suddenly been able to move me up in his schedule for drywalling to THIS WEEK!

Trouble is, I still am unsure of the final layout of the theater.

I'm pretty sure about the internal wall, and door location. Screen location seems unlikely to change but I'm not 100% sure. I don't think I'll be using in-wall speakers, but will start out using my existing Magnepans.

But the usual approach for these things is to know where conduit should be run, to get the speaker cable and video cable and power in the walls in the right places. And I'm not sure I know that yet, or that it might not change!

So, what's my best bet for creating something I won't have to rip apart?

I'm thinking I confirm that we'll have 3 circuits for the space (2x15 and 1x20 amp), and that I should have an outlet on each wall, perhaps two -- one towards each end, with the 20amp outlets on the new wall, facing both into the theater and into the entry room?

And I'm thinking that I make a best guess about conduit for speaker and video cabling, and have him put that into the walls? Or perhaps I assume that I'll be hanging fabric, perhaps curtains, on the walls over the acoustic treatment, so speaking cabling can run around the floor edges, covered by that fabric, leaving me with flexibility?

Hmmm. A lot to decide quickly! (I don't want to delay him though, because that could move things out a few months -- and as soon as I move in February I won't have a place to watch movies until this garage is at least mostly converted into a room.)

Managed to get a short reprieve from the drywalling step! Should be enough time to allow the Green Glue to arrive. I won't be using the Green Glue to do a second layer of drywall. Rather, we'll use it to run along the edges of the framing, prior to putting the drywall up.

As for the floor, how badly unlevel is it? If it's only 1/2 inch or so, just put a false floor in, looks like you have the room for such.

Mea culpa. Looks like this might be the better route. I've been reading about Dricore and it could work well. and be perhaps half the cost of new concrete -- plus it will be nicer to walk and cover than concrete. Still a bit pricey, though. Assuming I can wait for a sale or use a discount voucher, I'm figuring about $5/sq ft.

Today's question is, What kind of insulation to put behind the drywall? (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9496199#post9496199)

Just ran across your thread and if you go cathedral ceiling I would take out the "beams" across the ceiling they are not load bearing and it would clean it up a bunch. The only thing they are for is storage from the look of things.
Doug

Yeah, I'd LOVE to get rid of those beams, but assumed they were load bearing. How can I tell?

Show the picture to a structural engineer and ask his opinion. The way the roof is done looks like a ridge beam that the ceiling joists are attached to and the support for the beam is inside the two end walls underneath the drywall if that makes any sense. Dont take my word as the gospel but thats what it appears to be from the pictures you've posted. The beams you want to take out are only 2x4 and couldn't hold any weight of significance. A load supprting beam usually needs to be 1" per foot of span so you said the width of th garage is 17' so that would mean you need a 17" beam to support the weight of the roof. This is how headers above doors and windows are figured out.
I hope that helps.
Doug

My other suggestion for you would be to make the garage doors inoperable by removing the tracks like you mentioned but the other thing I would do is make the window into a dooor and have that as the entrance to the theater. That way you dont have a door on the exixting garage doors, which never looks quite right, and the entrance would be in the back of the room which is usually preferable.
Just my $ .02 worth.
Doug

My other suggestion for you would be to make the garage doors inoperable by removing the tracks like you mentioned but the other thing I would do is make the window into a dooor and have that as the entrance to the theater. That way you dont have a door on the exixting garage doors, which never looks quite right, and the entrance would be in the back of the room which is usually preferable.
Just my $ .02 worth.
Doug

I was thinking we'd cut a new door on the same wall as the window, but at the other end of that wall. I like having a window (that will be well covered) as a fire safety thing. The door would actually open into an "ante-room", and then there'd be a second door into the main theater. (The drawing may not make this clear.)

(The only hesitation I have about removing the tracks for the big doors is that I would then have to secure those doors some other way -- and converting back to a garage, when we move out in 5 or 10 years might be a hassle. But I don't think this will stop me :) .)

Show the picture to a structural engineer and ask his opinion. The way the roof is done looks like a ridge beam that the ceiling joists are attached to and the support for the beam is inside the two end walls underneath the drywall if that makes any sense. Dont take my word as the gospel but thats what it appears to be from the pictures you've posted. The beams you want to take out are only 2x4 and couldn't hold any weight of significance. A load supprting beam usually needs to be 1" per foot of span so you said the width of th garage is 17' so that would mean you need a 17" beam to support the weight of the roof. This is how headers above doors and windows are figured out.
I hope that helps.
Doug


Hmm.. The main beams running across are like 2x8s or something, so probably not load-bearing. I was thinking though whether they keep things square.

I've got a renovations expert coming to consult on the whole house (not that we can afford to follow his advice yet!) and I'll ask him about it.

They are to keep things square but you can raise them higher up the A frame they do not need to be at the wall level.

Nate

They are to keep things square but you can raise them higher up the A frame they do not need to be at the wall level.

Nate

Good to know! Just raising them up midday, assuming they still do their job, would be really nice for the space. Heck, I might even drywall under them, then, and not have any silly beams in the room itself.

Had a consultation today with a general contractor who specializes in restoring pre-WWII homes (like ours). Had him also take a look at the garage, to get his take on a few things. (Told him we'd pay him for a consultation, but that we already had a contractor on the hook for the work, to make sure the recommendations were not directed towards creating business.)

His recommendation was to not move the cross beams higher because then we'd want to re-enforce the ceiling beams that they are keeping square and that they are tensioned by. And he strongly encouraged me to not rip out the drywall (but to re-do the electrical), and to remove the tracks for the doors -- and just screw the doors to the jambs.

He take on the drywall was that it was in no worse shape that newly hung drywall (except for a few obvious places these needed repairing) before it has been finished. And that since there is already insulation blown into the walls, and I'm strongly considering a second later of drywall (with green glue) to just minimally fix it up, and then get going on the second batch.

About the cement, he thought it should be at the least re-poured, and he recommended re-doing the foundation.... but getting rid of the tree in the neighbor's yard, first, since the problem appears to be a root from the giant eucalyptus there.

Had a consultation today with a general contractor who specializes in restoring pre-WWII homes (like ours). Had him also take a look at the garage, to get his take on a few things. (Told him we'd pay him for a consultation, but that we already had a contractor on the hook for the work, to make sure the recommendations were not directed towards creating business.)

His recommendation was to not move the cross beams higher because then we'd want to re-enforce the ceiling beams that they are keeping square and that they are tensioned by. And he strongly encouraged me to not rip out the drywall (but to re-do the electrical), and to remove the tracks for the doors -- and just screw the doors to the jambs.

...elided...

About the cement, he thought it should be at the least re-poured, and he recommended re-doing the foundation.... but getting rid of the tree in the neighbor's yard, first, since the problem appears to be a root from the giant eucalyptus there.

As your contractor pointed out, you can't remove those beams. They are called collar ties if you want to look them up. They are under tension and serve to keep the roof from falling flat.

The dricore is expensive, but it is comfortable and goes down quickly. Before you did that, you would need to fill the cracks in the concrete at the very least. You would get backing rod (round foam - comes in various sizes) and put in the cracks, and the fill with a flexible concrete crack sealer. Read the labels, most have limitations for how wide or how deep a crack they can fill. The other option would be hydraulic cement.

Why did the concrete crack? Was it frost heave? If so, you might want to consider the drainage around the garage, so make sure it won't happen again!

One thing to keep in mind, if you redo the foundation for the building as suggested, you might be able to raise it up a foot or so... (Doesn't sound cheap though.)

"collar ties" yes, thanks! that was the phrase he used. They are staying put and I'll work with them.


-----

The likely cause of the concrete trouble is the very LARGE eucalyptus tree about one feet away from the back side of the garage, in the neighbor's yard. There's probably a root very near the surface. Similar in concept to what some trees do to a sidewalk.....

So I hesitate to put a floor over the concrete, or even pour new concrete, until that root is taken care of. But going to the neighbor's house an saying "Hi I just moved in and your tree is ruining my garage floor" is not a conversation I want to have. Actually, it's not clear that the tree isn't on my property, but that it has ended up being considered their yard.

So my next step is to learn where the property line is.

However, if it's a choice of using lawyers, or getting on bad terms with the neighbors, it may be better to work around the issue (but the root?, build a false floor with room for the concrete to continue it's cracking?).

I guess I should note that there is more of the discussion about insulation here. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=789441)

And that there is more about the floor, here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=788779).

And about the electricity here. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=783611)

And about running cabling here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=783634) and here. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=784239)

And, of course, a bit about the ceiling. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=783639)

The likely cause of the concrete trouble is the very LARGE eucalyptus tree about one feet away from the back side of the garage, in the neighbor's yard. There's probably a root very near the surface. Similar in concept to what some trees do to a sidewalk.....

So I hesitate to put a floor over the concrete, or even pour new concrete, until that root is taken care of. But going to the neighbor's house an saying "Hi I just moved in and your tree is ruining my garage floor" is not a conversation I want to have. Actually, it's not clear that the tree isn't on my property, but that it has ended up being considered their yard.
You will probably have to take up at least some of the concrete to determine if the tree roots caused the problem. If the tree is on your property, then answer is simplye If the tree is on their property, then perhaps you can invite them to see the damage the tree caused (when you have exposed the evidence), tell them you are fixing it and that any future damage will be their responsibility (using better words). Another option would be to get someone with a trenching machine to come along -- on your side of the property line -- and dig down several feet (which would cut the roots), and then put some kind of barrier in the ground before filling in the gap. Since you are in the US (the US in Litigous), I would check to see if you have any liability if your neighbours tree dies from the trenching.

Hmmm. Yes, something is needed. Here are more photos of the floor, which really shows the trouble.


http://preview.nathanh.photosite.com/%7Ephotos/tn/8028455_1024.ts1169704123000.jpg

and then a real close up of the area with the biggest issue

http://preview.nathanh.photosite.com/%7Ephotos/tn/8028459_1024.ts1169704128000.jpg

but that's not to say there aren't other areas that have trouble, such as this, which is on the right side, near the front -- which is a less likely place for a tree root to be causing a problem

http://preview.nathanh.photosite.com/%7Ephotos/tn/8028461_1024.ts1169704134000.jpg

so I guess we really won't know till we take the concrete out, and we might learn, once doing that, that it wasn't tree, and we didn't need to take the concrete out, but could have just sealed what was there, and built over it....

Why not just break up and remove the large chunk from the 3rd pic and see what's underneath? If it's the tree, you should see some evidence of that, but if it isn't, you can just fill in with some more concrete and lay a new floor over the top.

Gary

Now that's an idea I like. If my guy wants and all-or-nothing contract, I'll shop around for another concrete guy that is willing to take this approach. Thanks!

Those of you living in Northern California know that it has been raining quite a bit this weekend. This was a good chance to see whether there are any obvious leaks or water problems. The verdict: Maybe.

There is a drain pipe (the only one, in fact, for the gutters) on the right hand side of the garage entrance.

The drain literally empties onto concrete that is right at the door of the garage. And I THINK that this is where the water on the floor near the right door came from. I think I need to get an extension for that drain pipe and wait for the NEXT rain, to know for sure.

------------

In other news, another carpenter / handyman took a look at the garage and agrees that unless a closer inspection reveals a problem with the existing drywall, I can just leave it up and do a second layer over it.

According to UPS, the green glue should be here tomorrow (THANK YOU RANDITO3) but I suspect it will be at least a few weeks before I figure out what to do with the floor -- and I want to resolve that before I start with the walls, etc.

Back again. Been pulling out all the old cabinets and such from the previous owners, and the garage is getting more bare. Removing cabinets has revealed more concrete damage BUT our tree guy thinks he can take care of it, once we get some of the concrete out of the way. Nice little summer project!

So now I'm shopping for gear, since I want to buy as much of it "used" as possible, I figure I'm a few months from the end of construction, and that should be enough time to find what I want, used. The Mackie powered monitors I want (HR824) should be cake to acquire. I've got a NuForce Pre-Amp that is very nice and will tide me over until a good but affordable HDMI-audio decoding pre-amp arrives on the scene. The projector is already in house, as is the sub. And though I have a couple of screens to choose from, I haven't yet made up my mind about that (see this thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10549759#post10549759) for my questions in that dept. Found some nice theater seating at a local consignment place BUT I don;t actually have anywhere to store such a thing while the world is under construction :(

I'm not entirely sure I've got the circuits right, and am still wondering whether 7.1 instead of 6.1 is going to be preferable, but we're moving right along.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=82761

Looking good. 20 amps is probably enough for your speakers - the extra amplifier power will mainly be for headroom, and all channels/drivers won't be going at once. You'll want a 20 amp circuit for your subwoofer for sure, though. I'd also move the door back a bit.

Personally, I'd ditch the treadmill and try to get some plumbing in there for a toilet on the back wall and a small pedestal sink on the side wall. It won't be cheap, but if you're going all out, you might as well do it right the first time. I'd consider a bathroom as a must-have for a detached theater. If you can't afford it yet, set up a temporary theater in the garage and enjoy it until you can afford to do the room (and bathroom) justice.

Yeah, a bathroom would be great, but it's way beyond the budget for the foreseeable future. There is a second structure, next to the garage, that will be rebuilt and might eventually house the treadmill, at which time perhaps budget would permit a half bath.

Yeah, a bathroom would be great, but it's way beyond the budget for the foreseeable future.


I see some bushes out next to the garage. That should work just fine :D

nathan just discovered your thread. Glad you've had a fdew people look at the job.

My humble .02:

If you are putting more than one circuit in the garage, you will need a subpanel, per 225.30 of the NEC. You can't run multiple circuits to a detached building. Good news is that it will certainly be more convenient, plus your house panel looks a little crowded. The sub will only take 2 spaces on your existing panel.

As for concrete, I would remove at least the damaged portions plus some around it. Dig down and chainsaw through whatever root might be there. If it's on your property you can remove it. It will only become a bigger problem in the future, most likely compromising the foundation. Best case, remove the entire slab, compact, repour.

Lastly, I think you'd be really screwed if a neighbor flipped you for no permit. The amount of work it would take to make the building comply as habitable space wouldn't be worth it. Unless you have a good'ol boy inspector that will do a drive-by inspection.

Better to make nicey-nice with the neighbors, for sure!

Good luck,
Tim

I appreciate the suggestions.


If you are putting more than one circuit in the garage, you will need a subpanel, per 225.30 of the NEC. You can't run multiple circuits to a detached building. Good news is that it will certainly be more convenient, plus your house panel looks a little crowded. The sub will only take 2 spaces on your existing panel.

Yeah, after a bit of learning, it looks like the subpanel is a must. This is relatively cheap, and will give me room for the future.

As for concrete, I would remove at least the damaged portions plus some around it. Dig down and chainsaw through whatever root might be there. If it's on your property you can remove it. It will only become a bigger problem in the future, most likely compromising the foundation. Best case, remove the entire slab, compact, repour.

I gotta get a concrete guy to take a look. The arborist said he could remove the appropriate amount and take care of the root(s) BUT he was really quick to schedule a time for some pruning (which worked well) on another tree -- and has been not returning calls about the roots. I figure a concrete pro has dealt with such a situation before, so that would be the way to go.

Latest twist: The neighbors (or the owners of the house, since the neighbors are renters) chopped 80% of the tree down. Now it just looks like a 15 foot stump. That may not mean it never grows again but I'm guessing it slows it. And, best of all, now it's so small I'm not worried about it taking out my garage, in a storm.

Lastly, I think you'd be really screwed if a neighbor flipped you for no permit. The amount of work it would take to make the building comply as habitable space wouldn't be worth it. Unless you have a good'ol boy inspector that will do a drive-by inspection.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'habitable space' because it won't be a living space. Other than the false wall, it will be something that can still be a garage, with a single day's work.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'habitable space' because it won't be a living space. Other than the false wall, it will be something that can still be a garage, with a single day's work.

The IRC (International Residential Code) defines 'habitable space' as:

"1. Have at least a 7' ceiling.
2. Be at least 70 square feet.
3. Have natural light (window area equal to at least 8"% of the floor area) or artificial light.
4. Have natural ventilation (through operable doors or windows) or mechanical heat"

I don't think the U.S. federal code is that different. That would make pretty much every theater anyone on here has ever built habitable space. It doesn't have to be a living space - just that it COULD be a living space.

-drin

Any space within a building that is used for living is habitable space. In this situation (able to be converted back to a garage), I don't think it would be a good idea to go down that road.

Just giving you a heads up, ymmv.


Tim

Interesting. I guess I better "leave it as a garage"... that happens to have speakers and a screen and some seats in it.

Interesting. I guess I better "leave it as a garage"... that happens to have speakers and a screen and some seats in it.


Yup in which you are storing those items, VERY NEATLY! ;)

You could go and ask some general questions at your permitting department about what is allowed in your community.

I think it could be classified as a detached shop or outbuilding.

So in researching "detached garages" the rules appear different in my locality from a "living space". I'm not sure at what point a garage becomes a living space.

usually, if it has cooking or bathroom, then it would be living space.

This will have neither, so based on what I read on my city's web site explaining these things, it should be okay.

usually, if it has cooking or bathroom, then it would be living space.

That's not necessarily true. In Rhode Island it has to have two of the three following items to be considered living space:

1. Finished walls and ceiling, finished floor
2. Heating/cooling system
3. Lighting

That's all. My wine cellar counts as living space, and it has no heating/cooling (foundation walls on three sides - I rely on ground for temp. control). I'm not about to move into it, but it IS living space. Our square footage was reevaluated by a town assessor this spring based on it.

-drin

wow drin that's pretty strict. Bathrooms, hallways and closets aren't considered habitable. I would think of a wine cellar as a big closet. Not like you can slap a La-Z-Boy in there and watch the big screen or anything.

I could see being reassessed because the value of your home increases, but sheesh, there's no heat!

I guess there are exceptions to every rule, but usually around here the space would have to be conditioned (insulated and heated) to be considered habitable.

Not a bad idea to take a trip down to the building dept and see what they say. But I would think that it would be habitable space. Since most of the building will be uncovered, you would be in a classification of work that would basically make the building come up to code. If you're in a high wind or seismic zone you would be looking at a lot of structural work.

Then again, your building dept might be more lenient.

Tim

wow drin that's pretty strict.

In some ways, yes, in others not quite so strict. For example, after my rough-in inspection there was no further inspection required until the final. I went to the inspector's office twice to verify it. :) I also asked about my riser and ceiling height. He looked at me and said "We couldn't care less about it."

-drin

Posted in a separate thread, where I am trying to decide whether to build a whole new room within the garage -- and I think I should.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11218133



Well, the saga continues. Got the concrete slab in, this week. Whew!

Now it's time to make some dimension and construction decisions. From what I can estimate, the cost different between putting a second layer of drywall over the existing drywall (using the case of Green Glue a gracious fellow AVS-er set me up with) is less expensive than building four new interior walls... though I will have to build one new interior wall, anyway, to break up the room.

But I'm thinking it may be worth it to essentially build a room within the garage, that is almost as wide, and similarly as tall, as the current space -- because it lets me choose a more optimum size for acoustics, and the air gap between the false room on the slab, the walls of the actual garage, perhaps 6 to 12 inches, will help contain sound within the space AND prevent sound from leaking in.

And building a 2x4 frame for four walls to enclose a space of approx 13' x 16' is not astronomically more than doing a single wall....

But it raises the question of the RIGHT dimensions.

I've re-oriented the room to have the screen on the long wall -- so the room is wider than deep. I've got it figured out to have the seating at 2/3 of the way back from the screen. And, of course, the sweet spot seat will be centered on the screen and equidistant from each side wall.

Plugging all this into the calculators tells me:

13 x 17 x 7 room (17 is the max width, and 7 is the max ceiling with out having some cross beams visible): I've got single peaks at 66,161, and 199 hz. Double peaks at 132 and 256 hz. And single nulls at 33, 80,100, 166, and 299 hz. And a double null at 242 hz. AND 5 problem frequencies: 132, 166, 173, 241, 256.

NOT SO GOOD!

But, if I do 12.5 x 16 x 7.33, I get no peaks and no nulls! Of course, there are still 4 problematic frequencies, according to the calculator: 141, 180, 230, and 282 hz.

Other options can reduce the "problem frequencies" to just two, BUT then introduces two peaks. 13 x 16 x 7.33 is an example.

Here are the calculations:

Nathan,

Where in the bay area are you? I'll take a swipe and guess peninsula but I'm over here in the Hayward hills.

Victor

Yep, across the bay!

new layout. note the room within a room construction -- mostly about getting the right acoustic size, than being necessary for soundproofing. but it will help with that too.

sorry about the front (bottom) being cut off. a little trouble with the upload.

Well, I am being strongly persuaded to use the short wall for the screen, and I think I have managed to make it work, in this layout. Here is the room itself with elements drawn in.

First, the visio diagram of the room, from above. (Note that the entrance door and wall to the theater space don't exist yet, so in the actual photos, I have just drawn in where that wall will be.)

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=86904

And here are the photos:

Screen wall: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=86897

Right front: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=86898

View of the left front: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=86902

Seating area: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=86899

General layout:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=86900

More about the seating and relationship with surround & back speakers: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=86901

And now I need to figure out whether the ceiling will try to be taller than the bottom of those horizontal beams going across. I was thinking it could be, and they could be incorporated into the room, but that kind of blows the whole "room within a room" concept.

Of course, usually people do the room within a room to contain sound. I'm less interested in that than I am in dissipating it nicely whenever possible, rather than venting (reflecting) it back into the room -- within reason: I cannot keep the neighbors awake!

Figured out a new place to host some photos, since many of the previously posted links will die soon. So here is the story so far.

Started with an ugly broken down detached garage, with a really bad slab:



http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/7556067_1024.ts1168190309000.jpg

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/8.jpg

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/6.jpg

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/3.jpg

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/7556071_1024.ts1168190320000.jpg

And my initial thoughts about where to add a wall, and how to layout the space, have progressed:


http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/4.jpg

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/theat2.jpg

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/theat-1.jpg

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/theatrv4.jpg

And then I've got the new slab in place, removed most of the stuff that needs to come out, and started sketching where things will go:


http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/17.jpg

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/16.jpg

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/15.jpg

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/14.jpg

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/13.jpg

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/seatingareaandsurroundspeakers.jpg

Next steps.... in addition to making some decisions about the ceiling

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/7556071_1024.ts1168190320000.jpg

is to tear off the old drywall. Behind it I know we have 2x4 studs, with insulation bats in the stud bays. Hopefully I can leave that and use that.

And then I start to build a second wall, kind of like this one in the middle:

http://www.greengluecompany.com/images/wallTypes/wallSectionGuide.gif

though I will build it on 2x6 sills.... so that, in the future, if I need to replace the outter wall, which is on poorer concrete than most of the new wall will be on, I can actually turn it into a staggered stud wall (like on the left).

And, yes, I'll be using green glue -- though I don't really have enough to do all the walls and the ceiling... so I'm thinking that if I'm doing the two wall setup on the the four walls, maybe I use most of the green glue on the ceiling, which may be, at best, isolated via RISC clips....

Here is a drawing of the before and after intention for the exterior facing walls (top down view).

Why am I using a 2x6 sill for the interior part of the new wall? In the off chance that one day I need to remove the exterior wall I would probably rebuild it to make sue of the newer sill, on better concrete than the current exterior wall -- and have a staggered stub rather than dual wall.

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/theaterwallsoldandnew.jpg

Also here you will see a drawing of the floor. On top of this goes either a 1/2 inch carpet pad and dark wall-to wall carpeting OR a cheap (Ikea?) wood floor, and then a heavily padded, very large area rug (10' x 14').

I intend to leave about a half inch gap all the way around the floor against each wall -- where the soundmat goes up the wall an inch, and the OSB doesn't touch any wall. It's not clear to me that I will leave soundmat running up the wall at all -- I think I'll trim it at the height of the OSB when all is done. Then the only question becomes how to put a effective (not acoustically coupled, ie, touching wall and floor) floorboard in place.

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/floor.jpg

Based on the above descriptions of how the walls will be constructed, and an assumption that the ceiling will be just ABOVE the joists, I've created a new room mode calculation that on the one hand looks OKAY from a peaks and nulls perspective at the listening position BUT has an ugly graph.

I'd be really curious to know what the condition of the walls are like once you take down the old drywall. Hopefully everything is sound and it isn't the home of any critters.

Anyway, keep up the fun work. I'm looking forward to seeing how things progress.

Yeah, I dread / anticipate pulling down the old drywall, especially on the back wall, where some vines from next door had grown through....

May get to it this weekend. I'll post pictures when I do. I have temporarily run short of cash, so the next couple months will be my own un-assisted and therefor slow labor :)

That is going to be a project! I am looking forward to seeing all your progress.

Laters,
Jeff

Took down the drywall and old insulation today on the back wall, which was the wall I was most worried about. It's not as bad as I thought it might be. The insulation that was in there was pretty meager, and there was lots of dead (or bad looking) vines that had grown up into the wall. But the structure appears okay and there weren't batches of mold or critters.

Next step will be to try to "seal" the wall -- with serious primer, sprayed on very generously (or something better, if ya'all got a recommendation) and then some caulking, too, to hit the gaps at the base, sides and top where the plants were growing through. The neighbor has mostly let the plants on the opposite side of the wall die BUT one never knows what will happen in the future. For now, I've dumped a bunch of long acting weed killer along the base of the wall from the inside and into any cracks I could find.

I probably won't start framing the new "second" wall for the room within a room setup until I remove the drywall from the two other walls and do the same kind of treatment on those. Chances are good they are in the same condition, with without all the stuff growing in through the base of the wall.

here's what it looks like

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/IMG_6197.jpg

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/IMG_6209.jpg

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/IMG_6203.jpg

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/IMG_6205.jpg



Note: The attached images are the same as what you see above, in case those don't load properly.

and some of the problems...

Like the plants that were poking through (mostly into the space between the outer wall and the drywall, though occasionally into the room itself). There was a lot more plant matter, but I removed it before taking a photo.

I really need to figure out a good way (like spray foam or silicone or something) to seal the cracks at the floor and corners, to prevent repeat infestations.

Ideas?

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/IMG_6196.jpg


http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/IMG_6195.jpg


Note: The attached images are the same as what you see above, in case those don't load properly.

And then, of course, there is the old infrastructure (like the wiring) which I will not continue to use.

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/IMG_6202.jpg

And the trash....

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/IMG_6198.jpg


Note: The attached images are the same as what you see above, in case those don't load properly.

Spray foam ought to do the trick to seal cracks. You are right, that didn't look bad at all.

Something like this?

http://www.fomo.com/handi-foam.aspx

http://greatstuff.dow.com/greatstuff/diy/index.htm

Yep. If it's a pretty small area use the slow expanding stuff so that you don't have it push your framing apart.

Okay, filled in the cracks with spray foam:

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/IMG_6211.jpg

It's a little messy but what the heck:

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/IMG_6212.jpg

I feel like it's going to help.

I do need to do a few more things. I'll list those after showing what the other walls look like now.


Note: The attached images are the same as what you see above, in case those don't load properly.

Took the drywall off the other walls today. Pardon the mess. The lady of the house wanted me to eat dinner and clean up tomorrow....

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/IMG_6214.jpg

That there (above) is the screen wall.

Then this is the back wall. I've got to figure out what to do about that window. I could just fill it in. It will never let light into the room, since there will be a second set of studs and drywall in front of it. BUT I'm wondering whether I should ALSO put a easily removable wall section in that second set of studs/drywall -- and consider it an emergency exit....

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/IMG_6213.jpg


The other thing that is bothering me is there are actually some LARGER gaps between boards on the screen wall than there were on the problematic wall with the vines growing through. Luckily, the neighbor on that side (two of my walls are at the property lines) doesn't have anything growing up the wall. But the gaps are almost too numerous to seal with foam... though I may try.


Note: The attached images are the same as what you see above, in case those don't load properly.

So the next steps are:

1: Get a paint sprayer like this (http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=100371397):

http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/productImage/d724db1e-c05d-4282-b473-7dd55f8bcbff_300.jpg

and some good primer, and paint EVERYTHING IN SIGHT. Just to seal the wood better.



2. Get some kind of vapor barrier/sheeting, and put it up in each bay. Any recommendations?


3. Put up batts of insulation. Not sure what type yet. Probably put a batt in each bay AND one that straddles each vertical stud. I'll probably pull out the wiring about this time.


4. Start the framing for the walls. I'm thinking 2x4s, including the base plate. It won't touch any of the outside walls at all. I'm not sure yet whether to place the base directly on the concrete, or with a felt barrier or something between them. For that matter, I'm not sure whether to bolt these new walls to the concrete.


5. Then, run all the electrical in the new walls, like new construction.

6. Figure out the roof. (See next entry.)

The "roof".

Well, actually, I mean "the ceiling" of the screening room. I think it will rest atop the new walls, that are not connected to the old walls. But if I build it flat, underneath the beams that are holding the outside structure together, the ceiling will be too low -- especially after adding a second later of drywall with Green Glue, and acoustic panels.

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/IMG_6215.jpg


So, actually, I'm thinking of building "around" those beams. So most of the ceiling ends up being about at the top of those beams, but then it dips down to accommodate them (and not touch them). Then, I have great "bays" in the ceiling of the room that I can fill with acoustic material.

The idea is half-baked right now, but since that is weeks away at this pace (at best), that's okay.

---------------

For now, it's all about getting ready for boarding up one of the roll up doors, building a person sized entrance, and making sure the basic shell of the garage is in good shape....


We need to blend the old and the new, so we needed some vintage siding. Luckily the broken down shed we have had the same siding as the garage.... so it became the source for some of the siding (thanks, Kat!):

And then, inevitably, there is some damage that needs fixing. Interestingly, there was relatively little of that. But it did entail fixing the rotted supports in two corners:

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/483862506207_0_BG.jpg

Note: The attached images are the same as what you see above, in case those don't load properly.

Completed the structural parts of the shell this last week. What does that mean? That means we removed the tracks for the old roll up doors. We bolted one in place and saved the tracks. A future owner could re-enable it with little expense. The other door and tracks were totally removed and are now part of a landfill. In their place we put in a new wall, and a person sized door.

In the process, we discovered rot / pest damage to some structural members at the front of the garage. So we replaced those members with fresh pressure-treated 2x4s.

Then, we extracted some siding from an old shed we have, that is going to be torn down at some point, to cover up the new wall -- and it looks more or less like it has always been there.

Great to have some help from a couple of friends, in addition to paying one pro to be on the job for two days to make sure it all went smoothly.



http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/IMG_6224.jpg

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/IMG_6228.jpg

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/IMG_6232.jpg

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/IMG_6231.jpg

Note: The attached images are the same as what you see above, in case those don't load properly.

Almost finished the framing this weekend. Still need some diagonal beams for more rigidity, and of course we need the ceiling. But here's where we're at now:

The space OUTSIDE the theater room within a room:

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/IMG_6252.jpg

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/IMG_6251.jpg


And then the theater room itself:

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/IMG_6247.jpg

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/IMG_6250.jpg

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/IMG_6249.jpg

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/IMG_6248.jpg

and if those images don't appear, here they are again:

Wow. You are making some good progress. This is the first time I have looked at this thread in a while. You will be done before you know it.

Thanks. Yeah, getting the framing up was like seeing the drawings and plans start to materialize. Now, I'll take a few weeks doing the wiring and getting insulation onto the walls the garage. Still having trouble finding insulation locally except for the limited choices at HD and Lowes. I think I want to insulate BEFORE running electricity and low voltage stuff, so that may become a problem that needs to be resolved.

The only thing I'm really still worried about it A/C and ventilation, which compromising my budget and the sound proof nature of the theater. But I'm sure I'll figure it out.

Next steps:


Complete the framing -- ie, the rafters, including an OSB catwalk for later storage access over the room.
Put in attic fan (in the garage roof) -- Chef's hat style.
Hang the door.
Put in a silent bathroom fan in the ceiling joists.
Run the electrical:
Place the boxes (2 double gang on each wall, and one single gang at each ceiling/wall juncture)
Run the romex
Run the low voltage:
Place the boxes (8 double gang boxes)
Run the low voltage
Insulate the walls
Drywall the ceiling
FIGURE OUT THE A/C
Put in place ducts / vents for ventilation
Drywall the walls
Paint walls and ceiling
Put in floor (type is TBD)

Framing is more or less complete.

We added some bracing -- both to the existing exterior walls of the garage, and to all the new walls for the room within the room:

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/IMG_6254.jpg

and where the strapping met, I tried to put felt and duct tape, to minimize any possible rattling, down the road:

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/IMG_6255.jpg

---------------

You can see just how close the new wall and the old wall are. Nowhere do they touch, but now that I see how close the tolerances are (less than an inch in some places) I am a little worried that settling may occur and bridge the gap...

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/IMG_6262.jpg

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/IMG_6261.jpg

but I'm NOT going to tear it down and start over :eek:

----------------

The biggest deal is probably the rafters. This took some creative geometry. They are BIG and the working space is cramped. But they are all in place, now.

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/IMG_6257.jpg

and now it is possible to see the emerging challenge of the old structure's rafters -- which run THROUGH the new room:

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/IMG_6256.jpg

What'll we do? We plan to build a SOFFIT around them -- that essentially keeps them outside the sealed box of the room. Crazy, I know, but the only solution we could derive -- other than making the ceiling very low, actually attaching the ceiling to them (still too low, and wrecking our sound isolation), or re-building significant parts of the existing structure (not really a great option).

(the uploaded photos are the same as those above, in case those above don't appear correctly)

Starting the wiring. Ran out of speaker cable (Belden 10 gauge) so I'll have to wait for more to arrive. In the mean time, I'll complete the electrical, and do other low voltage wiring:

one run of RCA to each of seven positions (maybe two runs, if I find I have enough), which can be used for subs and/or powered speakers and/or monoblock amps at each speaker. This will be RG56 flexible 75 ohm cable, already terminated with RCA jacks -- it's monoprice video cable
one run, possibly two, of 75 ohm coax to each of seven locations -- which could be used as another RCA connection, or two. This will be Belden cable, not unlike what Blue Jeans uses.
one run of XLR cable to each of seven locations. Probably Audio-Technica. This is primarily for the balanced input on the powered speakers I plan to use. Of course, in the future, I could use unbalanced connections, or unpowered speakers and the speaker cable I'm throwing in there. At which time the XLR cables go dormant or are used for subs, etc.

All the above go to each of the seven low voltage boxes spread around the room.

In addition, I've got a new certified/tested hdmi 1.3 cable, and a set of Blue Jeans component video cables, which go to the projector location. These still need to be installed. Technically, the HDMI cable is not CL2 rated, but it's running atop and outside the walls.

Here is from outside the theater room, at the home run for all the cables, with most of the speaker cables here in place.

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/IMG_6280.jpg

Here is the typical configuration along a wall. Low voltage comes down from the top, and the high voltage receptacles and wire will be run low, horizontal with the floor.

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/IMG_6277.jpg

Here's a photo of the low voltage (in this case, speaker) wire heading back to the home run.

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/IMG_6275.jpg

And, of course, the lovely whacky beams that sort of run through the room and will be soffitted around -- are turning out to be useful to get wire from one side to the other, since we have left little room elsewhere for that to happen -- unless I want to run it very long, and too close to the power lines.

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/IMG_6278.jpg

Did a bunch of the electrical and a little more of the low voltage wiring. Running low on some cabling (like the speaker wire, and the RG59 coax bing used for the line level runs) and am waiting on more / other cabling too, like some Belden coax (which I'll run un-terminated, for future use) and some Canare star quad cable, which I'll use for XLRs runs.

Right now, the speaker wire and the other cables are NOT terminated at the wall plate, but actually run out into the room. The theory is that this will help to minimize the number of connections / improve the performance of the cabling. But it will also make it tougher to SEAL the openings.

Thoughts on how to make the dual gang boxes "sealed" flush with the drywall, while allowing cabling to come through?

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/IMG_6663.jpg

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/IMG_6664.jpg

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/IMG_6665.jpg

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/IMG_6666.jpg

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/IMG_6667.jpg

By the way, you probably can see there there are TWO electrical circuits going to each dual gang box. This is deliberate. One circuit will power the powered monitors around the room. The other circuit will power the subwoofers.

(As usual, the photos below are the same as those in the text, in case the one's in the text are not showing up correctly.)

Build an MDF box around around the low voltage box and seal the wire holes with caulk.

Thanks for the suggestion. I'm not sure I could build the box and have all the spooled cables working right. But the diea of having a face plate that stuff runs through and is then caulked, might be one angle.

Just a note looking at your pictures....If you are getting the electrical work inspected....the code for supporting the romex cable is that within 12" of boxes, cabinets, and fitting there must be a staple for support.

Ray

Good heads up on the staples. Thanks! I left a lot of slack, thinking that might be the case, but hadn't gone back and looked that up. I definitely want everything to be to code.

Just a note looking at your pictures....If you are getting the electrical work inspected....the code for supporting the romex cable is that within 12" of boxes, cabinets, and fitting there must be a staple for support.

Ray

This should do it, right? Staples for the romex going across the bay, and for the romex going to the next bay, it goes through a hole in the stud which "counts" as a staple.

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/c617b248.jpg

This should do it, right? Staples for the romex going across the bay, and for the romex going to the next bay, it goes through a hole in the stud which "counts" as a staple.

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/c617b248.jpg

No....there was a change in the code....In article 334.30 (A) of the National Electric code it now tells you to have a staple within the 12" of the box even if you went through a hole right by the box.

Ray

That's annoying. When was that change? In this case, it would actually be less safe to do that because I'm running out of space and would be really twisting lots of wiring in awkward ways, potentially damaging insulation, etc.

It was a change in the 2005 Code. Just make a loop, staple and then go into the box.

Ray

Hi Nate,

I just found this thread, and must say your room is looking good. Just a couple small questions: why are you running speaker wire if you're using Mackies? Shouldn't you just have to run line-level signals to each of them? Or did i misinterpret/miss something?

Also, i'm thinking when i get to do this, i'll go with those Mackies as well. Good choice!

I'm running speaker cable, two coax RCA, and one XLR to each speaker location. I'll use the XLR for the Mackies BUT I have a habit of changing my mind once every year or two, and I don't want to rip out the drywall later on.... so I'm overwiring, to accommodate future changes as best I can.

I may have finally hit upon a solution to A/C ventilation that works well and doesn't break the bank -- and doesn't require an HVAC contractor.

Reading through the fantastic book written by Rod Gervais called "Home Recording Studios: Build it Like the Pros", I have been learning some useful stuff, especially about HVAC. I *may* have found the right solution for my garage, which is similar to what McCall has:

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/13e8e955.png

(Note that this drawing is from Rod's great book. I highly recommend it. It's like digesting a few thousand posts on AVS, all nicelyu organized by someone who has "been there.")

Though I would want to use ducts, I think, to connect the wall unit to the vents leading into the room -- rather than trying to cool the "mechanical room" which is open (via a roof vent) to the outside world -- this appears to be a great solution. I think that this is both DIY-able (which a ductless mini-split system is not) and relatively cheap (well under $1k).

Still thinking through the details of the A/C.

For now, getting the wiring completed (done enough to drywall), and the insulation completed (done enough to drywall) is what's been going on.

Thanks, Ray, for the suggestion to fix the staples (add them).

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/IMG_6669.jpg

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/IMG_6671.jpg

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/IMG_6680.jpg

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/IMG_6682.jpg

What you may not be able to see from these photos is the bead of silicone caulk at the base of all the sill plates, to take care of any air/sound leaks down there.

(The attachments below are the same as the inline photos above, just in case you cannot see them.)

And the projector mount area, lights, and insulation.

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/IMG_6692.jpg

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/IMG_6693.jpg

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/IMG_6704.jpg

And, most exciting of all, the framing for the soffits to handle the beams running through the ceiling of the room -- but which are attached to the external structure, so I don't want them to touch the internal structure.

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/IMG_6716.jpg

(Attachments below are the same as the inline photos.)

And the drywall. That ceiling took FOREVER. The rest of the walls will probably take me and a buddy another day to complete.

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/IMG_6723.jpg

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/IMG_6722.jpg

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/IMG_6721.jpg

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/IMG_6720.jpg

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/IMG_6719.jpg

(photos below are same as above)

The first layer of mud was applied last week, and I moved a few speakers and sub (not pictured) into the room to get a sense of how much sound leaks out. Answer: Very little.

I need to raise the sound level inside to a painful point before I can hear anything more than a VERY faint sound coming from inside. (And even then it's not likely to be objectionable to any neighbor.) So at even a high likely listening level, rom a few feet away from the building, it's essentially silent and masked by a nearby freeway. This should improve a little once I seal over the last few holes in the room (low voltage outlet boxes) with gaskets and plates.... though they may be offset by the ventilation I'll be installing.

I think will also improve when I put in the 4 or 5 boxes or Auralex foam panels and 4 large and 2 small Real Traps bass traps.... and maybe one or two homemade soffit-style bass traps.

Here you can see the rear right corner. Note that the Surround (side) speaker is in the right place (it will be on a wall mount) but the Back speaker will be moved one stud towards the center:

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/IMG_6752.jpg

like in this photo:

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/IMG_6750.jpg

The tape straddling the corner is a 2ft by 4ft Real Traps bass trap. I have four of them and think I'll put one in each corner as high on the wall as possible. Here is what they look like in the front of the room. You can also see the edges of the 2.35 screen at maximum size.

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/IMG_6761.jpg

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/IMG_6762.jpg

(as always, the photos below are for those that cannot see the inline photos)

Drywall is complete. Tape and texture is complete. And flooring is in. Phew!

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/IMG_6770.jpg

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/IMG_6771.jpg
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/IMG_6772.jpg


http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/IMG_6773.jpg
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/IMG_6774.jpg

And now with a few acoustic bits up, some seating, etc. I CAN watch stuff in there now, though the seating is not ideal AT ALL and it the next major thing to think about.

Still going back and forth about a rise -- and whether I can put maybe a long couch in back where people don't recline, and then a few chairs in front, that CAN recline.

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/IMG_6835.jpg

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/IMG_6836.jpg


http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/IMG_6837.jpg

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/IMG_6838.jpg

Those panels, of course, will go higher and wider on the side walls. And on the back, they''ll be wall mounted and covered with a curtain along the whole back wall.

The side surround speaker will actually be wall mounted, but I haven't busted out the mounts yet, and then the subs will be moved around to generate the smoothest response at the main listening areas.

The blue tape on the screen indicates where the 2.40:1 image fills. The rest will be covered by curtains, too, and some side masking will be added for smaller films. It IS a "zoom" anamorphic set up (IE, not an anamorphic setup) which is fine for brightness (this is a 2.0 stewart screen) and pixels (cannot see them until you are a few feet from the screen). So it's the best of both worlds in terms of brightness and sharpness and no chromatic or geometric problems at all. But it IS a hassle to zoom, shift, and focus when changing formats..... though at least it's all on the remote!

(I have considered putting the projector about 6 inches lower, since when in zoomed-in, 16:9 mode the lens shift is at max, which is not ideal. And I have thought about putting the projector further back in the room -- to fill the screen side to side in 2.40:1 mode, though I guess it still might not -- but that would mean a shelf mount on the back wall, since the ceiling there is sloped.)

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/IMG_6839.jpg

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/IMG_6840.jpg



And then the gear rack outside the door, but inside the garage, with some temporary gear, like the Yamaha receiver (with pre-outs) which is doing the job till I find the Integra 9.8 locally.

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/0bc8a34b.jpg

Built the riser:

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/IMG_6863.jpg

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/IMG_6862.jpg

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/IMG_6883.jpg

And began to sell off some of the old acoustic treatments that the lady of the house didn't love the look of, and picked up the first set of GIK Acoustics panels. They are black, but the flash washes out the color and shows through the GOM fabric (an upgrade) to the structure underneath. Even under direct sunlight you cannot actually see anything under the GOM.

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/IMG_6905.jpg

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/IMG_6906.jpg

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/IMG_6907.jpg

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/IMG_6908.jpg

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/IMG_6916.jpg

Great progress!

Laters,
Jeff

Great progress!

Laters,
Jeff

Thanks!

Here's a few more recent photos.

Still going back and forth about front L+R speaker placement. I'll probably move the subs to the back corners and bust out some stands to give me more flexibility with placement.

Also still hunting for furniture. These are still the temp items culled from things that didn't fit in the house and were "in storage".

Also need to raise the rear GIK panels a bit. And put the plate covers in.

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/IMG_6925.jpg


http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/IMG_6927.jpg

I am excited to see some more pics of the progress. It looks like it has been a little over a month. Any udates?

Moved the subs to the rear corners, and have been experimenting with speakers, and speaker placement, trying to achieve ideal 2 channel music reproduction:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1022402

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1022225

For HT, I'm not feeling that anything is lacking -- and even a very critical friend was floored by some of the detail in the score for The Shining on Blu-Ray -- but I'll bet that once I have dialed in two channel re-production the movie experience will be taken to that "next level".

Hopefully I'm picking up some more used speakers today, which will offer both the flexibility and the sound that I desire for 2 channel music.

I've noticed that in store demos of speakers just don't tell me enough. So I am cycling through speakers on the used market -- and then selling them if they don't beat everything I have heard in my room. Been through the Mackies (which I actually didn't sell yet because they are a good fallback and a great workhorse), small Ushers, Paradigm Reference v4 monitors, high end B&W monitors, small Maggies, so far. Next up may be some larger Ushers, some Thiels, perhaps some Gallos.

---------------

Photos will follow when I get a bit deeper into finding the right speakers.

---------------

The other big area of work is on furniture. There is a nice looking couch at Ikea that I think would work GREAT for the front row:

http://www.ikea.com/PIAimages/75246_PE193109_S4.jpg

but it has not been in stock at any Northern CA Ikea store since it was introduced. I won't buy anything without sitting in it, first, because comfort makes ALL THE DIFFERENCE for a satisfying recreational experience :) It's also pretty pricey, so if I find different speakers that work better than my current arrangement, first, I may be waiting for a while on the final seating!

Right now, what I have is workable for 5 people. I don't think the back row is great, but some friends actually prefer it.

----

And, of course, I am STILL putting off wall plates where the cables come into the room. I was going to get ones that seal nicely but that requires custom drilling blank plates -- and that requires know what cables I'll be using.... so maybe an interim solution is in order.

---

And then the piece-de-resistance for room comfort: A/C. I've got some ideas, and the weather is likely to force me to try them, soon!

Nathan, way to take an old garage an turn it into a great looking space! Out of curiosity, what speakers are you using for L/C/R ?

Right now the LCR is up in limbo. Started with powered Mackie monitors which work well for film soundtracks, but didn't have the revealing nature and depth of soundstage I want for 2 channel. So I'm cycling through speakers to find something that I like for two channel, and then will worry about getting the rest to match after that.

Wow, it has been a while since I posted. After going through several iterations of speakers, I settled on a selection on Thiels. Went against my own advice and did not end up with the same speaker in each location. But it sounds good.

The seating has also improved. It still ain't so pretty to look at but it's comfortable.

The photos don't do the room justice. Yes, it is a black box, but it's not quite a pit. And I'm getting itchy to liven it up (but cannot decide how, yet).

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/IMG_8885.jpg


http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/nathan_h_photos/IMG_8886.jpg