and they're updating the online Apple Store right now . . .

iTV info
video, music & photos
intel proc in it
802.11 wifi - all three - b, g + n
40GB HD
720p HD video
componet
rca
usb2, ethernet, wi netowrking, HDMI

Let the complaining and disappointment begin...

yes right, let me order the iTV as soon as available. A few more minutes though before we find out whether it is going to be available today, may be at the Apple store a few blocks from me !!

this iTV seems fantastic. But how about 720p ? how does that relate to 1080i HD sets (1024x768) ? (sorry my ignorance)

ok, iTV in feb ....

whats disappointing about htose specs?? 720P AND a built in HD. Sounds pretty good. Component and HDMI. of course need to see how it performs and if you can run anything other than itunes movies.

Price $299 shipping in Feb.

iPhoneeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee !!!!

I've been waiting sooo long

nothing disappointing for as far as I understand it.

I'm in, they are taking orders later today on the apple store website me thinks.

Yeah, well, Apple TV will be great, if one can "rent" the movies at something like $2-$3. If you have to buy them, at $10 or more, then it ain't going anywhere.... and 40gigs will hold about 50-60 movies, then what...?

Also, Apple needs to allow you to integrate Apple TV with a much more robust Front Row, if it wants to stay in the running. Vista is going to push hard the "cable card" thing, and if all Apple has to offer is a download service at over $10 per movie, then I just don't get it.

For live updates: http://www.macworld.com/news/2007/01/09/liveupdate/index.php

thats phone is SICK!!

The only disappointing spec I see so far is that the new toys aren't free :)

Mike

Yeah, well, Apple TV will be great, if one can "rent" the movies at something like $2-$3. If you have to buy them, at $10 or more, then it ain't going anywhere.... and 40gigs will hold about 50-60 movies, then what...?

Also, Apple needs to allow you to integrate Apple TV with a much more robust Front Row, if it wants to stay in the running. Vista is going to push hard the "cable card" thing, and if all Apple has to offer is a download service at over $10 per movie, then I just don't get it.

um... appleTV is an interface device, like an iPod. It's intended to stream over a network from up to 5 different computers, it's not intended to be a PVR, so the hard drive is just there as a bonus. And, at 720P, 40-50 movies is a pretty big stretch. Think 3 or 4.

Also, at this point, $10 for a movie in widescreen HD is a rather reasonable price, given the price of next-gen discs in retail stores. Downloadable HD movies with an appleTV interface eliminate the need to guess whether BluRay or HD-DVD will win out.

But hey, at least it took 9-10 comments before the doubting thomases came out to rain on the appleTV...

but you don't need to store all you stuff on the HD maybe just what you plan to watch. Store the rest oni computer.

Apple TV is exactly what I expected. The only thing I can think of that I thought it might have is Wireless Routing features.

Sick Indeed !!!!

... And, at 720P, 40-50 movies is a pretty big stretch. Think 3 or 4. ... But hey, at least it took 9-10 comments before the doubting thomases came out to rain on the appleTV...

Huh, ever heard of h.264...?

As for a Doubting Thomases, when there is coming an onslaught of single-solution boxes offering unified front-ends for DVDs, Videos, Music, Photos, "cable card" enabled PVR, etc., including a choice of movie download services, I think Apple needs to come up with something better than a one-trick box. Just MO:-)

Wish they had integrated a version of Apple TV in a Mac Mini with a "smart card" slot and HDMI, and of course a decent front-end - then it will be worth talking about, and it would have stolen some of Vista's thunder.

Wish they had integrated a version of Apple TV in a Mac Mini with a "smart card" slot and HDMI, and of course a decent front-end - then it will be worth talking about, and it would have stolen some of Vista's thunder.

Couldn't agree more, with emphasis on the front-end.

The iPhone is sick, the iTV slick, but they are going to need another event to fill in the missing pieces -- 11n routers & cards for one.

Color me disappointed because I was hoping for display/Mini/MacPro updates of some sort, as I urgently need an upgrade.

As suspected when the iTV was first introduced. It's going to be an on-demand living room video box. Very similar to the xBox Live television and movie service without the quirks of that store.

It's Apple's return volley for the Zune. Unlike that product, this product will probably defeat the xBox in regards to on-demand video. Buying/Renting high definition videos from the iTunes store is the best interface/storefront for this thing.

Unlike the xBox which needs the whole video to be downloaded before watching, if they allow you to watch after a little buffering via streaming like the current iTunes store and the high definition trailers, that would be the ticket.

The 40gigs is built-in on the iTV which is twice the storage of the xBox. USB2 allows expansion.

The next thing from Apple should be full size Apple-branded HDTV's with full color calibration as only Apple can provide.

As it is, was Leopard even mentioned? When is it coming out?? iLife07, I guess will be coupled with Leopard?

http://www.apple.com/appletv/

Ted:

Seems that the 802.11n airport extreme comes in under the radar.

http://www.apple.com/airportextreme/

No new ipods?

No new ipods?

The phone is an ipod. So yes, two new ipods announced.

...It's Apple's return volley for the Zune. Unlike that product, this product will probably defeat the xBox in regards to on-demand video. Buying/Renting high definition videos from the iTunes store is the best interface/storefront for this thing....

The next thing from Apple should be full size Apple-branded HDTV's with full color calibration as only Apple can provide.
I missed the point where Jobs said anything about the iTunes Store selling HD. I know, it will obviously happen in the future, but when?

And yeah, I'd love an Apple HDTV, but Apple Inc. doesn't seem to want to give it to us -- I guess Steve is yet to find one that makes him happy.

looking at the specs it REQUIRES a widescreen tv so they must be making a change soon to the itunes content to either 480p or 720p. Leaving the current 480 standard def stuff does not make any sense.

The phone is an ipod. So yes, two new ipods announced.

Uhh, the ipod doesn't cost $499 and $599 and have a 2 year contract with monthly fees.

And where did Apple say the Itunes store would sell you HD movies?

Since I've been complaining about the complaining, I'll go ahead and start the complaining...

The video specs of Apple TV don't look all that impressive

"Video formats supported: H.264 and protected H.264 (from iTunes Store): 640 by 480, 30 fps, LC version of Baseline Profile; 320 by 240, 30 fps, Baseline profile up to Level 1.3; 1280 by 720, 24 fps, Progressive Main Profile. MPEG-4: 640 by 480, 30 fps, Simple Profile"

As suspected when the iTV was first introduced. It's going to be an on-demand living room video box. Very similar to the xBox Live television and movie service without the quirks of that store.

It's Apple's return volley for the Zune. Unlike that product, this product will probably defeat the xBox in regards to on-demand video. Buying/Renting high definition videos from the iTunes store is the best interface/storefront for this thing.

Unlike the xBox which needs the whole video to be downloaded before watching, if they allow you to watch after a little buffering via streaming like the current iTunes store and the high definition trailers, that would be the ticket.

The 40gigs is built-in on the iTV which is twice the storage of the xBox. USB2 allows expansion.

The next thing from Apple should be full size Apple-branded HDTV's with full color calibration as only Apple can provide.

Actually, you don't have to have the WHOLE video downloaded with Xbox Live....just a significant portion. Not as nice as Apple, but you can start watching before it's actually done.

Uhh, the ipod doesn't cost $499 and $599 and have a 2 year contract with monthly fees.

This one does.

here is video specs accepted.

Video formats supported: H.264 and protected H.264 (from iTunes Store): 640 by 480, 30 fps, LC version of Baseline Profile; 320 by 240, 30 fps, Baseline profile up to Level 1.3; 1280 by 720, 24 fps, Progressive Main Profile. MPEG-4: 640 by 480, 30 fps, Simple Profile

And as long as I'm complaining about the video specs, I'll take a shot at the Audio specs as well...

No DD or DTS support. Not that it's all that common in downloaded video, but it would be nice to have.

So no HD Video and no Digital sound.

What is the point of this product?

whats the point of the optical out and component out without HD and DD?? Maybe it does a passthrough on the audio side?

I'm buying both. Home runs on both, as far as I'm concerned.

Ted:

Seems that the 802.11n airport extreme comes in under the radar.

http://www.apple.com/airportextreme/

Blaaaarp!!!!! :eek: Now all I have to do is trash my Extreme Base Station and my three Express Base Stations, cough up $716 (unless I wait for a refurb, then ~$670) and I'm in!!!

Did I miss the part of mpeg2 video being able to be played? Guess not.

I'm buying both. Home runs on both, as far as I'm concerned.

So you don't want high definition video?

H.264/Mpeg4 video only so no mpeg2, divx/xvid, or WMV/VC1. Audio is AAC/mp3/wav only.

This is more like a line drive to the shortstop for a double play.

So you don't want high definition video?What about 720p isn't HD???

What about 720p isn't HD???

It might display in 720p but what Apple content is in 720p?

And as long as I'm complaining about the video specs, I'll take a shot at the Audio specs as well...

No DD or DTS support. Not that it's all that common in downloaded video, but it would be nice to have.
Yes, we are still better off sticking to a Mini -- if Front Row gets an update -- which at this point we are either going to have to wait for a) Leopard or if we are lucky b) the AppleTV release. The other question is HDCP support on future Minis for HD-DVD or other protected material.

Mini vs Apple TV?? I currently use a Core Duo Mini as my HTPC. I am wondering what the pros & cons will be when comparing the two.

Some that immediately come to mind:

Mini's advantages:
- Support for more video formats. The Apple TV's spec's only say H.264 support. Making it a no-go for streaming of the various downloadable video formats, DVDs, HDTV captures, etc.
- Versatile application support. I can display a WWW browser on the TV, and run any app, like my MythTV frontend for HDTV PVR.

Apple TV advantages:
- Cost. Much cheaper than any of the Mini choices.
- Size. Even smaller than the Mini.
- Better integration in some ways(???) With a local hard drive, it can cache content locally. The mini ocassionally gives me trouble accessing remote iPhoto libraries. Will the AppleTV be more robust in this respect?
- HDMI port. Audio/Video together

AppleTV questions:
- Any other video codecs supported?
- Can we use the WiFi-N as a base station if we have a wired connection (like the Airport express)
- Any other functionality for the USB port? External USB storage, USB HDTV tuner, print server?


I am pretty sure I'll buy one for my parents, to let my Mom easily display all her photos on their HDTV. But, I am not sure it will displace my Core Duo Mini on mine.

It might display in 720p but what Apple content is in 720p?

It's not going to be Apple content it's going to be Hollywood's!
They already have a lot of stuff available. Do you think it's going to stop now?

:p

It might display in 720p but what Apple content is in 720p?

ok, so the front row like UI is in 720p but nothing else is HD or DD sound. kind of pointless

...H.264/Mpeg4 video only so no mpeg2, divx/xvid, or WMV/VC1. Audio is AAC/mp3/wav only.

This is more like a line drive to the shortstop for a double play.
Thank goodness you are wrong about the audio -- it also supports Apple Lossless and AIFF, so if you need it for music, it is in no way crippled.

For Video, *for now*, you are better off with a Mini.

It's not going to be Apple content it's going to be Hollywood's!
They already have a lot of stuff available. Do you think it's going to stop now?

:p

where is this HD and dolby digital content you speak of on itunes? did i miss something?

Yes, we are still better off sticking to a Mini -- if Front Row gets an update -- which at this point we are either going to have to wait for a) Leopard or if we are lucky b) the AppleTV release. The other question is HDCP support on future Minis for HD-DVD or other protected material.

I would imagine if you have a wired Intel Mini to your big display, you will have the option of running the content available at the Apple Store just the same way you can watch trailers now. That's my guess.

If you want the wireless 720p option, you get the new Apple TV device.

that HAS to be coming. I don't think they will anounce HD content on itunes till the device ships, then we will also see an upgrade to iTunes at the same time.

where is this HD and dolby digital content you speak of on itunes? did i miss something?

I only know that content will be available via 720p. I don't know anything about dolby.

I only know that content will be available via 720p. I don't know anything about dolby.

did they announce that?

all the 720p on apple tv is good for is the front row like UI as of now from what i have read.

I think patience is the key right now.

Once the Apple TV is released, we'll see what kind of offerings are going to be available from the iTunes store.

HDMI and optical audio pretty much means high definition and digital surround sound just like the xBox Live Marketplace.

I'm sure there will be other content.. Steve did mention being able to watch trailers .. so there is some HD content ;P

For all else, I think people can speculate, whine, etc, but we'll know a lot more once this actually ships.

I'm more interested in the phone.

As for monthly fee.. one would assume that after the 2 years, the iPhone is yours and would operate like a PDA/iPod even if you canceled your cell service. So if you were going to have cell service _anyway_, this is a $499/599 version of the iPod that does much much more. Personally it will allow me to merge/ditch my 8125 and my 5G iPod.

Mildly curious to know whether it will be more "open" (since it is running OSX) than the iPod... ie. will be be more like a full tablet computer where we can load our own apps, etc, or locked down subject to only Apple's whims?

Mike

that HAS to be coming. I don't think they will anounce HD content on itunes till the device ships, then we will also see an upgrade to iTunes at the same time.

i hope so too but why didnt they announce it? maybe so people didnt stop buying SD content on itunes until Feb? just seems weird

I'm sure there will be other content.. Steve did mention being able to watch trailers .. so there is some HD content ;P

For all else, I think people can speculate, whine, etc, but we'll know a lot more once this actually ships.

I'm more interested in the phone.

As for monthly fee.. one would assume that after the 2 years, the iPhone is yours and would operate like a PDA/iPod even if you canceled your cell service. So if you were going to have cell service _anyway_, this is a $499/599 version of the iPod that does much much more. Personally it will allow me to merge/ditch my 8125 and my 5G iPod.

Mildly curious to know whether it will be more "open" (since it is running OSX) than the iPod... ie. will be be more like a full tablet computer where we can load our own apps, etc, or locked down subject to only Apple's whims?

Mike

what sucks is the cingular part. they are terrible where i live.

everything else about the phone sounds great

Compared to the $700 that i paid for my Treo 650 when it first came out, no sticker shock for me in regards to this beautiful iPhone. Now if it can only let me run Pocket Quicken......

I'm more interested in the phone.

Mildly curious to know whether it will be more "open" (since it is running OSX) than the iPod... ie. will be be more like a full tablet computer where we can load our own apps, etc, or locked down subject to only Apple's whims?


Since the phone has wifi, would it not make an excellent controller for a Mini htpc? Wouldn't it be great to run, say, DVDpedia on the iPhone and when you select your film or music, it just starts playing on the Mini? I hope there's a nice developer reading this ;)

Since we're talking iPhone...

I wonder how much the Cingular service fees will be, to really take advantage of the services described? I'm betting it will be on the high end of the current data services.
The two year commitment is not great either.

I am also curious what they really mean when they say it runs "OS X". I cannot believe it's a full implementation of OS X. I'm sure it's related in some ways, but the resource requirements for OS X are way too high for a device that small. I wouldn't be surprised if the iPhone was based on an intel Xscale processor and ran an embedded cousin of OS X (kind of like Windows CE vs Windows XP). But, hopefully it uses Cocoa APIs, so I can easily make custom apps to run on it.

Compared to the $700 that i paid for my Treo 650 when it first came out, no sticker shock for me in regards to this beautiful iPhone. Now if it can only let me run Pocket Quicken......

Why only the Pocket version? :) Why not the full version (one can only hope we can run our own stuff)

Mike

did they announce that?

all the 720p on apple tv is good for is the front row like UI as of now from what i have read.

They announced 720p and HDMI as a part of it. Full details should be on their store site when it comes back up soon. :rolleyes:

that HAS to be coming. I don't think they will anounce HD content on itunes till the device ships, then we will also see an upgrade to iTunes at the same time.
I sure hope so -- especially for TV content -- that way I won't have to wait many months to see Battlestar Galactica season 3...

Since we're talking iPhone...

I wonder how much the Cingular service fees will be, to really take advantage of the services described? I'm betting it will be on the high end of the current data services.

I would assume (dangerous I know) that you can buy it without a data plan and subsist on the 802.xxx connection.

I do this with my 8125. I have Cingular but do not pay for any data plan. But anytime I am near a wifi hotspot (open access) I can still surf, ssh, check my email, etc.

Mobile data plans still do cost far too much (IMO), but this could really tempt me.

Mike

I Knew there was no way we would get divx/xvid support, I figured that you would be restricted to Itunes compatibility since you are streaming from there. I have my mini connected
Apple TV does not offer enough over that to warrant it

I would assume (dangerous I know) that you can buy it without a data plan and subsist on the 802.xxx connection.

I do this with my 8125. I have Cingular but do not pay for any data plan. But anytime I am near a wifi hotspot (open access) I can still surf, ssh, check my email, etc.

Mobile data plans still do cost far too much (IMO), but this could really tempt me.


I hope you're right. But, you have to wonder what Cingular's angle is on this. Sure, it's nice to be the provider of the coolest device going. But, every mobile service is trying to get a piece of the media pie. They want their cut of every song sold. So, if their conceding that part to Apple, they must be interested in lining their pockets some other way. I'm guessing they see the people who can/will spend $500-$600 on a phone as a big source of service revenue.

I'm willing to pay that much for a phone that gets everything right. But, after paying that much, it's a pit of a disappointment to also be required to do a two year service agreement. At $600, are they saying Cingular is still subsidizing the equipment cost?

I Knew there was no way we would get divx/xvid support, I figured that you would be restricted to Itunes compatibility since you are streaming from there.

Yup, of course we wouldn't get Dvix/ Xvid Avi, etc. But, if you haven't come across it yet,
Visualhub is a super program that converts all the formats to the Apple compatible H.264 MP4 format. (even tivo files) Hell, my entire video library is already in Itunes.

I ordered the Apple TV today. My receipt says it ships 2/28 and arrives 3/6.

I have a ps3 that will handle my blu-ray high def needs, but the Apple feed is more than sufficient for the kids movies. Meanwhile, I'll use it primarily to access my itunes library.

I hope you're right. But, you have to wonder what Cingular's angle is on this. Sure, it's nice to be the provider of the coolest device going. But, every mobile service is trying to get a piece of the media pie. They want their cut of every song sold. So, if their conceding that part to Apple, they must be interested in lining their pockets some other way. I'm guessing they see the people who can/will spend $500-$600 on a phone as a big source of service revenue.

I'm willing to pay that much for a phone that gets everything right. But, after paying that much, it's a pit of a disappointment to also be required to do a two year service agreement. At $600, are they saying Cingular is still subsidizing the equipment cost?

Very possibly. Look at any other such comparable (if such exists) device.. they are $800-$1500. Other than lacking GPS, its potentially (???) a UMPC competitor (depending on how open the device is to user configuration).

There are very few Windows Mobile 5 devices that have a VGA (or better) screen... none(?) with 4-8G of storage.... many/most seem to lack one wireless technology or another (Bluetooth, wifi, etc).

If you buy the existing devices (unlocked) they are quite expensive. I do wish it would be less expensive, but I can't fault Apple too much for the pricing... remember how much the original iPods cost? :)

According to CNN, Jobs said a future model would support 3G.. I didn't see anything about that in the blog coverage of the keynote.

Mike

The iPhone has Wifi, so you don't need a data plan to get much benefit. Only when you are out of a WiFi hotspot. Must have gotten huge concession from Cingular to get this. Nice to know Apple is holding on to some of the reins.

appleTV: If the movies don't have DD, then why would anyone buy them? So I'm sure DD will be announced when the 720pmovies go up on iTS.

As to Mac Mini or appleTV?

appleTV will be for those who don't want to have a HTPC. Hopefully Front Row (or whatever it will be called in Leopard) will get updated soon. It should have at least for a minimum the same feature set as the appleTV. Plus it should have more support for plugins, file types, etc.

Still no mention on content delivery model, i.e. purchase to own, rent to own, or subscription. Look for this to get filled out as launch approaches.

No word on Leopard or other new Macs. Look for special product announcements in the near future in this area.

No mention on update to iLife or iWork. Look for announcements on that this week.

And Apple Computer is now Apple, Inc. Google ceo made jokes about merging and becoming Goopple, or was it Aggle? AppGoo? Gaggle? whatever. Something in the air??? Must have been odd with both Yahoo and Google execs on stage at the same time.

Other than lacking GPSiPhone has GPS.

iPhone has GPS.

That would be super! I know Google maps seemed to know where you are (implying GPS, or perhaps cell-tower triangulation), but never saw anything (nor can I find it on Apple or engadget's site) that actually mentioned GPS.

Mike

That would be super! I know Google maps seemed to know where you are (implying GPS, or perhaps cell-tower triangulation), but never saw anything (nor can I find it on Apple or engadget's site) that actually mentioned GPS.

Mike

Well, as a mobile phone, it's required by law to have a GPS chip in it for 911 calls. With all of the other innovative features that Apple worked out to have with Google map point-and-dial, it would be foolish of them (and not very Apple-like) to not include more than just rudimentary basic bare-bones federal compliance for GPS.

GPS integrated into Google Maps integrated into point-and-dial is a sure-fire way to help kill off Verizon Wireless' hopes of 411/GPS/directions integration.

Why only the Pocket version? :) Why not the full version (one can only hope we can run our own stuff)

Mike

Maybe you'll be able to run your own widgets, but I can't see full fledged installable applications. Unless they come from Cingular, which will be another profit center for them. I'll be happy if I can use my own ringtones, let alone applications.

Well, as a mobile phone, it's required by law to have a GPS chip....

Hm, I think what you are talking about is NOT real GPS, which uses satellites exclusively to establish your position precisely, and can be used for navigation anywhere in the world, but a much more limited position-determining function, which uses transmission towers, and is not nearly as useful for navigation.

I hope I am wrong, but it sounds like the iPhone is only EDGE compatible. Cingular is rolling out 3G in a big way, and believe me, 3G makes a big difference. Internet browsing is not really useful on EDGE, IMO. Simply bewildering that Apple would introduce a new, expensive phone, without 3G support:-(

I like the iPod, but the rest is underwhelming.

So no HD Video and no Digital sound.

What is the point of this product?
My thoughts exactly. Guess they want us to buy the Mini.

Maybe you'll be able to run your own widgets, but I can't see full fledged installable applications. Unless they come from Cingular, which will be another profit center for them. I'll be happy if I can use my own ringtones, let alone applications.

My understanding is that the whole unit will be supported by Apple. Cingular is just the carrier.

So no HD Video and no Digital sound.

What is the point of this product?


If it has no digital sound, why does it have an tos link on the back?

If it has no digital sound, why does it have an tos link on the back?

It has digital sound as in Apple Lossless, WAV, AIFF, AAC, etc, but no multichannel format. No support for Dolby Digital or DTS. This is listed under Technical Specs under Apple TV page. That makes it a non-starter for me. I would rather buy a Mini to connect to my new JVC HD-ILA rather than this.

It has digital sound as in Apple Lossless, WAV, AIFF, AAC, etc, but no multichannel format. No support for Dolby Digital or DTS. This is listed under Technical Specs under Apple TV page. That makes it a non-starter for me. I would rather buy a Mini to connect to my new JVC HD-ILA rather than this.


I've encoded my H.264 movies with AAC AC-3, so while not bit streamed, I think we should still get 5 channel surround. Like I said, PS-3 and Blu-Ray for me, Apple for the kids flicks which get stored en mass and played again and again. (It's amazing how many times they can watch a movie over and over.)

If it has no digital sound, why does it have an tos link on the back?

The same reason you can get SPDIF from the airport express. Does nothing.

All the movies/TV shows from the Apple store have AAC audio. Why would the movies be any different?

Hm, I think what you are talking about is NOT real GPS, which uses satellites exclusively to establish your position precisely, and can be used for navigation anywhere in the world, but a much more limited position-determining function, which uses transmission towers, and is not nearly as useful for navigation.

Actually, the carriers had a choice: Overhaul their entire network for tower triangulation by the end of 2005, or add GPS chips to all phones. Guess which they chose?

While it's true that you don't necessarily have direct access to the GPS data, it's a matter of getting in to the phone's programming to turn it on, and if you're running OS X, it's just a matter of getting access to the data.

Even without true GPS capability, the developers at Apple are usually gifted with the foresight to see that, if they're integrating with Google Maps, then they can find a way to default Google Maps to the user's current location. More than one AVS member has thought of it, which means that it was certainly in SOMEONE's head at Apple.


I hope I am wrong, but it sounds like the iPhone is only EDGE compatible. Cingular is rolling out 3G in a big way, and believe me, 3G makes a big difference. Internet browsing is not really useful on EDGE, IMO. Simply bewildering that Apple would introduce a new, expensive phone, without 3G support:-(

From the Keynote: "iPhone is a quad-band phone that operates on GSM and EDGE networks. That's the most popular international standard, said Jobs, though Apple plans to make 3G phones in the future."

The same reason you can get SPDIF from the airport express. Does nothing.

All the movies/TV shows from the Apple store have AAC audio. Why would the movies be any different?


You do understand that AAC supports multi-channel?

If it has no digital sound, why does it have an tos link on the back?

Ever heard how good Apple lossless sounds streamed out the digital optical minijack of an Airport Express? That's why.

Clearly, more pieces have to fall into place in the coming months to really evaluate this device wrt video or value. There's too much else that was not announced. Baby steps.

would rather buy a Mini

Right, that's what many of us have suggested would be the wiser move regardless of what was announced today, because at this point it was naive to expect more than something intimately tied to the iTunes store content and Front Row.

Personally, I think the expanded functionality of the USB port on the new AirPort Extreme Base Station has appeal--plug in a hard drive and you have a networked 'AirPort Disk'--use a USB hub and you can plug in multiple drives and printers and share them all? Sounds too good to be true--but I love having a wireless printer right now with the old extreme basestation. I have a feeling this is going to go over really well, especially if it proves just fast enough to handle the kinds of files WE would put on it...

I also think the phone has some promise with Wi-Fi and BT that's only been hinted at--who can't see this in the high end living room as a seamless touchpad controller--but the contract lock-in underwhelms me, I was one of those hoping for an MVNO or a straight up unlocked iPhone--and that 2 year contract, while standard, will really limit potential customers, that's hardly thinking differently.

For the voicemail access like email, I'm wondering if the phone gets/keeps it local (vs at the central office), or if Cingular is updating their voicemail system, and/or if this will be accessed over the data network instead... (which might dictate getting the data plan).. thoughts?

Mike

Ever heard how good Apple lossless sounds streamed out the digital optical minijack of an Airport Express? That's why.

The statement was made in response to the claim that it did not have digital audio, which is not the case. How good it sounds streamed out of the airport is a separate issue all together. Fortunately, since my home is ethernet wired, I won't ever know.


Clearly, more pieces have to fall into place in the coming months to really evaluate this device wrt video or value. There's too much else that was not announced. Baby steps.

Agreed. But given the hair pulling experience I've had with the PS3, this will be a welcome addition, regardless.

... While it's true that you don't necessarily have direct access to the GPS data, it's a matter of getting in to the phone's programming to turn it on....

I wish you were correct, but I am afraid you are confusing the chips making 911 location possible, with a true embedded, but software-disabled GPS chip, like the one apparently used in the HTC Trinity (which does have 3G and will likely be the replacement for my Cingular 8125 (on which I do have Google maps, with Yahoo Traffic overlay:-))


... From the Keynote: "iPhone is a quad-band phone that operates on GSM and EDGE networks. That's the most popular international standard, said Jobs, though Apple plans to make 3G phones in the future."

EDGE is being rapidly replaced all over the world by 3G, just like DSL replaced dial up. Cingular already has 3G in a bunch of areas, and it will have 3G in all major markets by the middle of the year. IMO, introducing such an expensive phone without 3G capability, at this time, is just lame, and if connectivity is at all a concern, one would be foolish to sign a 2-year contract on top of it. I think Steve is just trying to spin that fact:-)

Again, in my experience, EDGE is only useful in a pinch, while G3 actually makes accessing the Internet on a phone practicable. Cingular's rates for either are apparently to remain the same, so it would be like saying "I am happy to pay the same for my Dial-Up, as others are paying for their DSL, and I don't care about the slow speeds." Maybe that's O.K. for some, but not for me....

But, you have to wonder what Cingular's angle is on this. Sure, it's nice to be the provider of the coolest device going. But, every mobile service is trying to get a piece of the media pie. They want their cut of every song sold. So, if their conceding that part to Apple, they must be interested in lining their pockets some other way. I'm guessing they see the people who can/will spend $500-$600 on a phone as a big source of service revenue.Cingular's angle is that they hope to win a bunch of new customers who want [need] an iPhone. And with Apple going for the 1% solution (10 million phones in the first year) I talked about in the past, Cingular knows that an exclusive on the first batch of phones will net them quite a few customers. So it seems to be the tradeoff that Apple needed to get its phone out. I don't think that anyone is worrying about making money on sellling songs for the phone yet, as it will work with iTunes on your computer. Notice no mention of purchasing songs via OTA. Apple would be crazy to dilute the iTS brand by allowing any third party to mangle it. Look at the severely limited iTunes on the ROKR and other moto phones. Apple's not dumb here.

I hope I am wrong, but it sounds like the iPhone is only EDGE compatible. Cingular is rolling out 3G in a big way, and believe me, 3G makes a big difference. Internet browsing is not really useful on EDGE, IMO. Simply bewildering that Apple would introduce a new, expensive phone, without 3G support:-(

I like the iPod, but the rest is underwhelming.I don't think that Apple would want its foray into the mobile market be a beta tool for Cingular's new 3G network. So Apple, having no control over how Cingular rolls out the 3G system-wide, chose to be conservative with the first model.

As with all Apple product announcements, this is just the first of many, different Apple iPhones. Look for the holes that people will dis it for to be addressed in upcoming models.

I think that one of the big news points with the iPhone (other than all of the patented goodies that Apple may or may not license out) is that it runs on OS X. I;m sure that now we all will have to wait to get the details on that, but it looks like Apple wants to drive the market in a big way. This feature alone opens up the handheld market for Apple to a whole new level. I think that we'll see some interesting contrasts with Symbian, WIndows CE/mobile, and other handheld OS's. OS X brings some really exciting potential to the market that most of us didn't even think was possible.

And with the features of the iPhone, remove the phone part, add in a 100GB hard drive, and you have an awesome video iPod. One that can wirelessly connect with your big screen (or your neighbors) and computer. Think of it as a 20-40 hour HD storage device (like the video cassette of old) with a preview device (480x320 screen) and built in player (via iPd port or wifi).

Apple rolled out a whole platform today. We only saw the wrapping, torn a little with a few products sticking out. It will be an interesting year. Those who dis Apple's announcements by what they didn't see should look beyond the tip of the iceberg. The fact that we got this much info on two products that don't even ship for 1-6 months is pretty amazing. What we don't know doesn't mean that something doesn't exist. Apple most surely knows that lack of certain features are deal breakers. But it also knows that just a certain feature set will drive billions in sales. This isn't MS throwing a Zune to the wolves in a desperate attempt to be relevant in a market segment.

Friends, I've been gone from these forums for several weeks due to severe overwork at the office. But I look forward to catching up on favorite threads and reaquainting myself with everyone here.

To add my 2c worth on AppleTV, it's a complete non-starter in our household. For one point, it won't play any of our Sony HC3 1080i HDV home videos without extensive transcoding. For another, it won't play our EyeTV 500 archives. Whether or not AppleTV handles AC3 audio, .mp3s, and photos, AppleTV will have no place in our living room without MPEG2 support. AppleTV suits Apple Inc's makeover strategy, but not our family's needs. I won't be recommending this device to family or friends. It's just not the right product for the people I know.

Even though it won't help us directly, I hope AppleTV will be made to support the new AVCHD camcorder video format; but I seriously doubt that will happen. No Macintosh can presently play AVCHD, and AVCHD support isn't announced for any Apple product.

I wonder how the mainstream consumer electronics market will perceive AppleTV? Will it get the same chilly reception as Zune?

I'm much more enthusiastic about the new phone. I won't be buying one of the first generation Apple phones due to the very favorable corporate rates I have through US Cellular. But Apple could really shake things up if they manage to broaden future non-Cingular offerings. I'm way to happy with my 80 GB Video iPod to trade it in just yet, though it's bursting at the seams with AV content. I'll be looking for a 120-200 GB iPod in a year or two. As a light cellular phone user I look forward to reading about other (phoneless) 6th gen iPods soon.

AppleTV suits Apple Inc's makeover strategy, but not our family's needs. I won't be recommending this device to family or friends. It's just not the right product for the people I know.well, I don't know if Apple needed a makeover, but the TV has a very targetted audience. It is for the person/family that has their Mac in the den and the big screen in the living room, and another screen in the bedroom or media room. They have content on the computer (iPhoto, iTunes, iMovie) and want an easy and convenient way to get it to their big screen(s). They want to buy content from the iTS instead of running out to Blockbuster or mailings from Netflix. appleTV is not for the person who has a lot invested in a variety of video files in the multitude of formats available from third parties. It definitely has a limited audience. But a huge market segment, nonetheless. A lot will change over the next year as the platform gets rolled out. But it is clear that the appleTV is not a HTPC. We will need to look for an update to the Mini, or another product from Apple.

My understanding is that the whole unit will be supported by Apple. Cingular is just the carrier.

And it appears as if the phone is an "Apple Only" platform. So don't expect to be installing any applications:

link (http://www.tuaw.com/2007/01/09/iphone-will-not-allow-user-installable-applications/)

And it appears as if the phone is an "Apple Only" platform. So don't expect to be installing any applications:


According to the article you cited, this information was obtained from "one of the security/information attendants guarding the device". I think/hope, we can find a more authoritative source than that!

well, I don't know if Apple needed a makeover, but the TV has a very targetted audience. It is for the person/family that has their Mac in the den and the big screen in the living room, and another screen in the bedroom or media room.

When I look at the subjects in this forum, it seems sometimes that almost 50 percent of them are something like this: "Mac Mini and my (brand name) TV?" IOW, people trying to get a full screen display on this or that TV.

I always thought it was for those people that the ITV or AppleTV was intended. Sure, it is also an Airport Express for video, so for people who don't want to or can't run cable from their computer to their TV, this is also a nice product.

But, who ever had the idea that this was supposed to be a htpc or even a key part of a htpc? As Wildrock said, it is a tool for a group of people with a special need.

Personally, I am more interested in what the iPhone can do to control my Mini.

According to the article you cited, this information was obtained from "one of the security/information attendants guarding the device". I think/hope, we can find a more authoritative source than that!

aka an Apple employee.

aka an Apple employee.

Unlikely. Many, if not most, of the people working at stands at trade shows are hired for the show. Besides, even if it was an Apple employee, how do you know he wasn't the guy from the copy room? :)

Personally, I think the expanded functionality of the USB port on the new AirPort Extreme Base Station has appeal--plug in a hard drive and you have a networked 'AirPort Disk'--use a USB hub and you can plug in multiple drives and printers and share them all? Sounds too good to be true Yes, I found that to be the most exciting (non)-announcement of the keynote. Plug in a 1 TB Seagate drive and you've got a NAS substitute "for the rest of us." Very clever. I just wonder if the drive has to be formatted a special way, or will any Mac or FAT32 volume work?

Of course it's a pity Apple didn't include Gigabit in the new AEBS. I was looking forward to upgrading my home net to Gigabit at the next generation of routers. Now it seems that will have to involve non-Apple equipment, versus hanging AEBS off the side of a third party Gigabit router. That's probably too much of a mess for most people.

I hope Apple's next AEBS has 7 Gigabit ports + USB for the printer/HD hub. That would have me opening my wallet. I don't see such a product coming anytime soon.

To summarize this Macworld Expo... I recall no single keynote in recent years that had fewer surprises than this one. The rumor mill pegged AppleTV and Apple's phone extremely well. The only real eye-opener was the USB port on AEBS for hard drive networking. I wonder if or when Airport Express will be given this ability? (Notice the $30 price drop on AX.)

My disappointment with AppleTV is greater than the product itself. AppleTV bodes poorly for our Front Row gripes ever being addressed. Unlike the first generation iPod, AppleTV doesn't seem a stepping stone to something better down the road.

well, I don't know if Apple needed a makeover... I, too, don't know they needed a makeover.... I was kind of fond of the old Apple Computer, Inc. I'm not sure what to make of the new Apple, Inc. Is it just a name change or is something deeper going on?

I, too, don't know they needed a makeover.... I was kind of fond of the old Apple Computer, Inc. I'm not sure what to make of the new Apple, Inc. Is it just a name change or is something deeper going on?
I suspect an imminent agreement with Apple Corps LTD over the Apple name (and Beatles catalog) has something to do with it. I even wonder if Apple will get the right to be a record company from them -- it would make sense.

Signing bands directly to iTunes would be a coup. Under the current situation, Apple gets 30 cents per song, the record company 68, and the band gets 1 cent if they are lucky (after paying for stuff like "breakage" (left over from the vinyl days)). I think everybody would be happier with an Apple/Band 50/50 split. Everybody except the record companies, but hey.

To summarize this Macworld Expo... I recall no single keynote in recent years that had fewer surprises than this one.

Agree 100%

No Leopard, no iApps, no "Macbook Pro" small form factor replacement for my darling dated 12" Powerbook (granted that was a big longshot anyway.)

My disappointment with AppleTV is greater than the product itself. AppleTV bodes poorly for our Front Row gripes ever being addressed.

Also agree 100%, I just hate it when our collective cynicism is so duly reinforced.

Agree 100%

No Leopard, no iApps, no "Macbook Pro" small form factor replacement for my darling dated 12" Powerbook (granted that was a big longshot anyway.)



Also agree 100%, I just hate it when our collective cynicism is so duly reinforced.Unfortunately, I think that the Steve had his own personal agenda to get out of the way (announce the iPhone) before he/Apple can move on to other things. The surprises have been pushed out (probably to become even less of a surprise, as attention will get focused on the ommissions at the stevenote). Thumb capping at its best. :D

I'm not sure what to make of the new Apple, Inc. Is it just a name change or is something deeper going on?Well, Im getting the sense that Apple is well on its way to becoming the Sony of the 21st century. As much as I love Sony the last 30 years, they really have stumbled as of late. All of the stuff that Apple is pulling off--the iPod, the iPhone, entertainment convergence--was rightly the realm of Sony to lead. But where Sony has failed to execute, Apple has excelled. I think that the big question is, with Apple's move to the CE space, where does that leave its computer hardware future? It's obvious that OS X is the real key ingredient, especially with Apple moving to a mobile, handheld OS X, and computer hardware tied to Intel and maybe AMD for the foreseable future and all of the predictability and transparency that comes with that (glad to see PowerPC and all of its no-show attitude go away). Time for OS licensing to make a reentry? Apple can only get so big as a computer manufacturer before the weight begins to take a toll. Look for Apple to continue to diversify and drive innovation at all levels. Then the MS's and Dell's of the world can fill in all of the backdraft. Apple has always hated getting into commodity production. The day that Apple slides into that trap (think the Dell, HP, Gateway competition for the cheapest hardware), is the day that Steve Jobs moves on to the Next Best Thing.

Unlikely. Many, if not most, of the people working at stands at trade shows are hired for the show. Besides, even if it was an Apple employee, how do you know he wasn't the guy from the copy room? :)

Confirmed by VP's. It's a closed platform.
link (http://www.tuaw.com/2007/01/10/apple-vps-confirm-no-3rd-party-iphone-apps/)

I go back and forth on this; Sometimes would like to have it open; othertimes would prefer a tight closed supported 'firmware' type device that's more dependable.
Perhaps with the iPhone Apple will operate a third party widget certification program to help bride the gap some...

ken

Confirmed by VP's. It's a closed platform.
link (http://www.tuaw.com/2007/01/10/apple-vps-confirm-no-3rd-party-iphone-apps/)
Well, that story comes from Gizmodo, and Gizmodo gets it wrong more than it gets it right. So until it's an official word from Apple, I'm going to hold off on coming to conclusions here. My impression is that Apple will keep the system closed until it is deployed and tested. No need to let third party apps muddy the water. But they will have a hard time stemming the tide that will rise wanting to get in on the fun. Look to Apple to license out developers for targetted projects at first, like it has done with iPod games. Then someone will hack the system and it'll be off to the races.

Well, that story comes from Gizmodo, and Gizmodo gets it wrong more than it gets it right. So until it's an official word from Apple, I'm going to hold off on coming to conclusions here. My impression is that Apple will keep the system closed until it is deployed and tested. No need to let third party apps muddy the water. But they will have a hard time stemming the tide that will rise wanting to get in on the fun. Look to Apple to license out developers for targetted projects at first, like it has done with iPod games. Then someone will hack the system and it'll be off to the races.

Steve Jobs confirms, iPhone is a closed platform.
link (http://www.tuaw.com/2007/01/11/jobs-confirms-iphone-is-a-closed-platform/)

Steve Jobs confirms, iPhone is a closed platform.
link (http://www.tuaw.com/2007/01/11/jobs-confirms-iphone-is-a-closed-platform/)

That is a deal-breaker for me... #$%#$^ I really wanted to get rid of my Windows Mobile phone, but at least with it, I can load/write any software I please.

I wonder how they will prevent Java applets...

Mike

Steve Jobs confirms, iPhone is a closed platform.
link (http://www.tuaw.com/2007/01/11/jobs-confirms-iphone-is-a-closed-platform/)

Well, as it turns out, we're both/all right. From an article in the NY Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/11/technology/11cnd-apple.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&oref=slogin) : "These are devices that need to work, and you can’t do that if you load any software on them," Steve Jobs said.

Now, read the rest carefully: "That doesn’t mean there’s not going to be software to buy that you can load on them coming from us. It doesn’t mean we have to write it all, but it means it has to be more of a controlled environment."

So, this means that it is NOT a closed system, but rather, that Apple will act as a gatekeeper. I am hopeful that if Apple can do it, other will find ways of doing it. And, whether or not they do, I hope that somebody offers htpc software for it.

It looks also like Apple is not the only one to make a phone like this: http://www.slashphone.com/89/6073.html

Now, read the rest carefully: "That doesn’t mean there’s not going to be software to buy that you can load on them coming from us. It doesn’t mean we have to write it all, but it means it has to be more of a controlled environment."[/url]

It will be as open as the ipod and I would call that a closed system. Sure there wil be software and a recurring revenue stream, but it will be Apple only. And don't forget that additional software support wasn't added to the iPod until the 5th generation.

Sure there wil be software and a recurring revenue stream, but it will be Apple only.

Well, he said "It doesn’t mean we have to write it all", so that says to me that it will not be "Apple only." But, as I said, the more important point is what is available, not who wrote it.

Of course, we're not even at version 1.0 yet, so who know what will happen in the coming months. I'm just happy to read that there is at least some htpc software for the iPhone is a real possibility.

The iPhone: superb design, the best out there.

But no 3G on a $600 + 2 year contract phone which is coming out in the middle of 2007, means that the initial users will be the Beta testers, until Apple gets its act together and gets 3G a few months later. (3G is NOT in Beta testing, it is being rolled out all over the world and it works well.)

The closed system is also a deal-breaker: yeah, I already have Google Maps on my Cingular 8125, but without the ability to overlay Yahoo Traffic, it wouldn't be of much use to me. I also have the complete Wikipedia residing on my card, a huge talking dictionary, financial calculator, Fizz Traveller (providing weather, airport delays, conversions, etc.,) and a bunch of other applications tailored to my needs.

I also have TomTom Europe, so when I am there, I use a BT GPS unit with the 8125, and have a pretty capable navigation system to get me around whatever country.

And I am thinking of replacing the 8125 (no 3G, thus not really useful for Internet browsing,) with something like the HTC Trinity, which has 3G, plus an actual GPS chip (even though it's apparently not great, and not activated yet.)

Granted, I have hacked my 8125 extensively (see http://forum.xda-developers.com/) but it works perfectly and it fits MY needs, not Steve's....

The bottom line? I hope Apple sells a lot of iPhones, because I like Apple. But I wouldn't be buying one, because I personally don't think it offers enough capabilities to compete with offerings from the likes of HTC. Plus keep in mind, that by the time the iPhone is actually in stores, HTC will be about to come out with their next-generation models.

It looks like iPhone 1.0 may be Apple's Zune... but let's not give up hope. This project could certainly grow into something really great over time. Unfortunately I don't share that hope for AppleTV. As we've seen with other media extenders (IO Data, Buffalo, Zensonic, etc.) they usually become increasingly crippled over time as the company's motivation level drops.

It looks like iPhone 1.0 may be Apple's Zune... but let's not give up hope. This project could certainly grow into something really great over time. Unfortunately I don't share that hope for AppleTV. As we've seen with other media extenders (IO Data, Buffalo, Zensonic, etc.) they usually become increasingly crippled over time as the company's motivation level drops.
I don't share your your iPhone assessment. Whatever you feel about its capabilities, it is going to sell like hotcakes. Zune is not selling.

I think Ryan1's above iPhone critique is akin to the famous Slashdot review of the original iPod: No wireless. Less space than a nomad. Lame. Talk about missing the point of one of the most successful products of all time. People buying the iPod probably didn't even know what a Nomad was. People buying the iPhone won't know what Fizz Traveler or Tom Tom Europe are.

The super power users who have souped up, bulky, hard to use smartphones are not the target audience for the iPhone. Cell phone users who have never even heard of the HTC Trinity, much less considered buying one, are. They are after all, the vast majority of potential customers. They are already drooling in mass over how cool and beautiful the iPhone is.

The reason smartphones are only 1% of the market is because only 1% of the market is willing to learn how to use them and pay more for the privilege to do so. The iPhone will not have the same constraints and I have a feeling that far more than 1% of the market will be paying for the privilege to use something cool and well designed when the iPhone is set loose upon the market.

-Jerry C.

The reason smartphones are only 1% of the market is because only 1% of the market is willing to learn how to use them and pay more for the privilege to do so. The iPhone will not have the same constraints and I have a feeling that far more than 1% of the market will be paying for the privilege to use something cool and well designed when the iPhone is set loose upon the market.

I agree completely. For one thing, the music and video playback abilities are mostly ignored in this discussion and yet, for 99 percent of the customers (including me), these will be the biggest and best points about the iPhone. I currently have an old Treo and I would be happy to trade up to the iPhone. I do not use the Treo to download (I use my computers at home with a DSL connection to download) and I have only used the Internet abilities of the Treo when I was on holiday in another country and I wanted to check and send email.

I travel mostly by train (I don't have a car) and the iPhone would be perfect. I'm going to Belgium twice in the next couple of weeks and I will be on the train for two hours each way. If I could watch a film during that time, the iPhone would be worth it to me.

I don't care about ringtones. So long as I can hear the ringer, that's enough. While it's true that I have installed a LOT of software on my Treo, I can't help believing that if the iPhone takes off as well as many people think, that there will be an accessory market for it just like the iPod. And, as Steve Jobs has said (see quotes above), there will be additional software for the iPhone, at least initially, only from Apple.

This discussion about the iPhone is a little like the discussion here about Apple TV: some people are saying, in effect: This product is not for my advance needs, so it will clearly fail.

I think both of you might be correct, and I do hope Apple sells a lot of iPhones. But that still doesn't make it a good deal, compared to the competition.

A big part of the reason the smartphones market is small is the price factor. Apple is smack in the middle of that sector, actually, at the high end. The G3 enabled Cingular 8525 is in the mid $300s with a 2 year contract, and while not as sexy as the iPhone, it seems to offer greater flexibility and a better bang for the buck. And yeah, while nobody has heard of HTC, HTC nevertheless sells the most smartphones of any manufacturer in the world.

Anyway, hope you guys are right: good design is worth a lot.

I just want to point out that all the replies have been thoughtful, and while people may disagree 180 degrees on things, the discussion has been polite and without personal attacks or condescending attitudes. I can't remember the last time I saw a thread like this

Mac users rule.

...But that still doesn't make it a good deal, compared to the competition.

A big part of the reason the smartphones market is small is the price factor. Apple is smack in the middle of that sector, actually, at the high end.I watched Steve Jobs talking about the pricing of the iPhone on CNBC after the stevenote. When asked about the high price, he said something to the effect that he wished that everyone could buy an iPhone for a price they could afford, but that the price will come down over time. As with the iPod line, look for Apple to add models priced into different market segments. How long that will take is anybody's guess right now. And Apple is well known for milking the early adopter crowd. Believe me, they know who they are targetting with this phone and how much they are willing to spend. But that's how Apple can afford to spend money innovating. I don't mind letting that crowd (sometimes it is me--I picked up my MacBook right after it was announced) pay the price for a better/cheaper product down the road.

My iPhone = Zune crack may have been over the top. But iPhone does have some similarities to Zune as a currently overpriced, closed-API, first generation gadget in an already saturated market. Four or eight GB is just not adequate for a portable video player, IMO. No doubt the storage limitation will improve before long.

I'm so glad I didn't postpone my 80 GB iPod purchase in October... though I'm already aching for a bigger HD. I'll look at iPhone seriously when it hits 160-200 GB.

I have little doubt iPhone will succeed in time. Unfortunately, Zune will probably succeed too. While one seeks to elevate, the other poorly copies.

I welcome iPhone as I welcomed the first iPod... but not by opening my wallet. It's a great concept piece.

I think Apple is going to have to walk a very fine line between the iPhone and the next generations of the iPod.

I think it would be safe to assume that the next iPod will look like a shorter iPhone (the top and bottom are not necessary for the iPod). Wi-Fi would be a nice addition to keep up with the Zune. 80 gigs would be a safe bet with potentially more . This would make the new iPod thicker than the iPhone but that could a good thing because with the additional surface area, they could include a very high capacity battery. Plus all of the cool finger gestures would be standard on this model. Both very cool gadgets.

Now the big question would be whether or not, they would include the internet browsing capabilities? Even the Sony PSP comes with a browser.

Now what would the price be?

The current iPod 80g goes for $349.

What would the larger screen add to the price? $100? This would make next iPod between $400-$500.

Now this would make the decision between a iPhone and a upgraded iPod much tougher.

The iPhone would probably sell nicely anyway but the upgraded iPod would also be a great addition to the iPod line. I'd get one. Plus i'm certain that it would be announced before the June date for the iPhone.

With Leopard, new Macs, powerbooks and probably the next generation superdrive, Whatever transpires, Apple's near future looks very very good.

Yeah, that's basically what I was wondering.. If the next-gen iPods share the same UI as the iPhone, that may be more interesting than the iPhone for me. No 2 year Cingular commitment.. no Cingular relationship at all! No expensive monthly cellular data service needed.

If it does indeed include all the non-Phone apps and WiFi, it wil be a really good device. If it allowed 3rd party apps, it would be a great device.

As for the Zune comment.. There are apects that I don't like, but this is no Zune. This is an innovative, game changing device. The user interface is spectacular. And, the hype around and interest in this product is unprecedented. It was on the front page of almost every newspaper I saw, on local and national news, on NPR, and countless WWW sites. You just can't buy that kind of advertising.

PSA - iTunes store now has the Macworld Keynote available for free download.

The sucker is 1.2GB lol.

-Jerry C.

PSA - iTunes store now has the Macworld Keynote available for free download.

The sucker is 1.2GB lol.

-Jerry C.Is it 1080p with 5.1 and in DivX??? If not, it's not worth anything...
:eek: :D :D :p ;)

I guess this as good of a thread as any to post this!

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/5285/794wy8.gif

Not too many people seem overly concerned that the iPhone battery isn't replaceable. I'd hate to be locked into a 2 year commitment and have the battery die half-way thru and have to shell out another $100 for some third party to replace the battery.

I bought a $150 iPod Nano with a non-replaceable battery, but that's about my price limit. It's remarkable what Apple gets away with.

Jobs didn't announce a Mac Tablet, but OWC did! http://www.macsales.com

Not too many people seem overly concerned that the iPhone battery isn't replaceable. I'd hate to be locked into a 2 year commitment and have the battery die half-way thru and have to shell out another $100 for some third party to replace the battery.

I expect the replacement battery market will be the same for this as the iPods.... but it strikes me that the 2-year agreement thing flies in the face of the iPod experience, where

a) your battery might not make it that long :)
b) 3 newer models will have been introduced in the meantime, with features that could have been a software upgrade for you, but Apple chose not to release (and being a closed system you can't even get approximations of them)

For the iPod market, Apple has driven people to upgrade based on b)... they won't be able to do that as much with this product.. which makes the closed nature of the device all the more offensive.

Windows Mobile blows chunks, and users (I am one) learn to soft-reset far more often that one should have to... but one can add new programs, write your own programs, and add a variety of storage cards, and/or peripherals that fit in the SDIO slot. The fact that this device runs OS X matters little if we can't interact with it more openly....

I think this device is aimed at early adopters (given its pricing).. and that crowd expects to be able to add their own programs, b/c they have been doing that all these years on Palm and WM5 devices. Superior/simple GUI works for the iMac (and my mother), but she is not the target audience for the iPhone.

Still it will be a good device.. always a shame to see Apple's control-freakishness keep it from being a truly great device. :(

Mike

Zim2dive just made the iPhone = Zune argument more eloquently than I did. Again, I don't believe iPhone to be Zune... just that it has some Zune like qualities. The iPhone's future looks brighter than Zune's -- though MS will surely try to force everyone to get Zunes by hook or by crook.

To Jyeesf and other iPod watchers, my prediction is the next top-of-the-line iPod will have a 100 GB HDD. 120 GB 1.8" drives were recently announced but those are still many months away. I'm not so sure Apple will include all the iPhone interface features in the next iPod for fear of cannibalizing iPhone sales. I expect to see one more fifth generation iPod announced soon, with 100 GB HDD and a couple of the iPhone features added, while the sixth generation iPod is held for a late 2007 / early 2008 release.... Just my reading of the tea leaves.

People keep bringing up things like "Windows mobile sucks but you can install all this stuff on it...". Well the reason it might suck so much is that it tires to do all these things and just makes a mess of it. Don't get me wrong, I would like to see apps you could add to the iPhone to increase functionality but I don't think it is entirely a bad idea to have Apple in charge of what is allowed to be installed on their phone. Large 3rd party developers could still make software that could be sold through the iTunes store.

People assuming Apple may not want to release an iPod with the same GUI and multi-touch tech in the iPhone for fear of cannibalization may be looking at things the wrong way. One old rule of business is that it is better to eat your own children than to have them eaten by someone else. The iPhone may have made all competitors look like prehistoric caveman devices, with all due apologies to Mr. Geico Caveman ;) , but they have also just made the iPod look inferior as well. People may start to second guess their iPod purchases as well at this point. This is one reason companies don't like to pre-announce products too far in advance as it can kill sales of current products.

Another reason Apple may come out with an iPhone-like iPod sooner rather than later is price. They probably are going to price such a device far higher than the current top of the line iPod. If they drop a 100GB drive in it expect it to be $499 or even more, remember also there are no subsidies like a cell-phone here so the product must be profitable right out of the chute. Then can still claim it is reasonable because it wil have over 10x's the storage of the top iPhone and you can bet it will still sell pretty well. It wasn't too long ago when the iPod color 60GB model debuted at $599.

-Jerry C.

I expect the replacement battery market will be the same for this as the iPods.... but it strikes me that the 2-year agreement thing flies in the face of the iPod experience, where

a) your battery might not make it that long :)Don't forget that Apple has a one year warranty that covers the battery, including replacement. And for the most expensive iPod, you can get a 2 year warranty extension for $59. That would cover most people's worries about batteries. And after any cell phone is three years old, it's pretty much an old hat, anyways...

Windows Mobile blows chunks, and users (I am one) learn to soft-reset far more often that one should have to... but one can add new programs, write your own programs, and add a variety of storage cards, and/or peripherals that fit in the SDIO slot. The fact that this device runs OS X matters little if we can't interact with it more openly....Doesn't anyone else see the linkage between these two comments? Steve Jobs said exactly that this is why the iPhone won't be open. He's not about to let some poorly programmed third party app or peripheral allow the iPhone to blow chunks (though his comments about a phone taking down the west coast was very Chicken Little-ish). But look for a good slew of apps from Apple, and I'm sure third party apps will certified through Apple, the way iPod games are starting to be allowed. This isn't a bad thing for a new product. I know people here aren't patient for Apple to stuff all of the features they demand into a product, but Apple can't please everyone here, no matter what they do.

Zim2dive just made the iPhone = Zune argument more eloquently than I did. Again, I don't believe iPhone to be Zune... just that it has some Zune like qualities. The iPhone's future looks brighter than Zune's -- though MS will surely try to force everyone to get Zunes by hook or by crook.Why do people even try to compare the two? They are completely different products with completely different market segments (let's see, should I get a zune, or an iPhone--I like brown, I'll get the Zune :confused: ).

The Zune has no phone capablilities, even, not to mention being void of 200 patents worth of innovation, or an inheritor of 5 generations of successful iPod legacy and iTS development. If people want to compare the Zune to an iPod, that's fine, and it fails miserably to match up with an iPod. If people want to talk about Microsoft's vision of home entertainment and productivity with handheld music players vs. Apple's, that's another whole discussion. But leave the Zune/iPhone comparisons aside before I go ballistic and rant for far too long on how terrible of a comparison it is. I really have better things to do with my life, than get into another vent about MS. :eek: But I'll do it if I have to. :D

People keep bringing up things like "Windows mobile sucks but you can install all this stuff on it...". Well the reason it might suck so much is that it tires to do all these things and just makes a mess of it.

This is a false assertion. WM5 sucks b/c it is unstable. 3rd party apps having nothing to do with it. If they shipped the phone as closed as Apple is, it would still suck. However it is an expandable suck .. at your whim, not by what some mother company decides is/not good for you.

I would not compare this to the Zune.. as I see the Zune as a late-comer me-too product that doesn't offer enough to the party.... ok, wait now I see the comparison :)

But I dunno... in some ways Apple is breaching a new market, and IMO making a critical mistake in its approach.... which will hamper/reduce its effort enough to simply be late to the existing party....

to untangle what I just said.. if Apple were to release this as open, it would be a watershed product, advancing every aspect of the market.. but instead they will step forward in some areas, and backward in others.

The whole idea of convergence to me is reducing the # of devices I carry.. if Apple prevents this device from serving my needs, then it does not reduce the # of devices I will have to carry, and ergo I have no reason to buy it.

Make it truly open, and I'd be 1st in line to buy.

Mike

On the iPhone, i think it would be safe to assume that gearheads like most AVSforum dwellers would like a more open platform. I don't think that Apple has the same thing in mind. They are going to be targeting the millions of nano users that would like to combine the phone and nano into one device. The introductory pricing is going to nab a lot of the early adoptor, "gotta have it first" crowd. Look for the price to go down once the prodcut has been around awhile. Happens all the time.

Plus i don't think the product path for the iPhone is in any way connected to the product path of the iPod. I can almost guarantee that a new iPod very similar to the technology available on the iPhone will be introduced at an Apple event before June.

Somewhere around $500 for the 100G 6G iPod with the large screen would be about right and sell tons. The availability of Wi-Fi and internet browsing would be probably be connected to a iTunes music buying track.

I think after all of these years with Apple, we should know better than to get a fully hackable geek device from them. That's not their target market. Remember "Computers for the Rest of Us"?

I think after all of these years with Apple, we should know better than to get a fully hackable geek device from them. That's not their target market. Remember "Computers for the Rest of Us"?

What do you mean? That's what my MacBook Pro is. I can install anything I want on it. It comes with developer tools for free, allowing me to create and install my own apps. It's based on Unix, I can even download the kernel source code.

I see MacOS as the ultimate combination of ease of use, great apps, etc.. and unix power / flexibility / hackability. I didn't even consider using MacOS before OS X. iPhone may be the OS7 of smart phones, and I may wait for the OS X.

FYI, macrumors (http://www.macrumors.com/) has posted the specs for the AppleTV :

- 1 GHz Pentium M, 2 MB L2 Cache
- 350 Mhz Front Side Bus
- nVidia G72M with 64MB DDR2 VRAM (GeForce Go 7400)
- 256 MB DDR2 400 Mhz RAM

Also mentioned is that the unit does in fact contain a cooling fan.

-Jerry C.

FYI, macrumors (http://www.macrumors.com/) has posted the specs for the AppleTV :

- 1 GHz Pentium M, 2 MB L2 Cache
- 350 Mhz Front Side Bus
- nVidia G72M with 64MB DDR2 VRAM (GeForce Go 7400)
- 256 MB DDR2 400 Mhz RAM

Also mentioned is that the unit does in fact contain a cooling fan.

-Jerry C.

This ought to kick of another firestorm of complaints.

Not too many people seem overly concerned that the iPhone battery isn't replaceable. I'd hate to be locked into a 2 year commitment and have the battery die half-way thru and have to shell out another $100 for some third party to replace the battery.
Has it really been confirmed that the iPhone's battery is not replaceable, at least in the conventional manner?

Looking at the photos, the entire back of the iPhone is chrome, with the exception of the little black piece on the bottom. It looks suspiciously like a compartment for "stuff".

During the keynote, this is where the special cable was sticking out from to display the iPhone onto the huge screen.

This ought to kick of another firestorm of complaints.

OK, here's the first: this is a rumour site and we should wait until the product is actually available before complaining!

OK, here's the first: this is a rumour site and we should wait until the product is actually available before complaining!

As far as I'm concerned, I don't care if this thing is powered by an elderly gerbil as long as it's able to perform up to the task. But that's not enough for AVS forum members. If a device doesn't meet their targeted specs, then the device is failure and sure to flop in the market.

As far as I'm concerned, I don't care if this thing is powered by an elderly gerbil as long as it's able to perform up to the task. But that's not enough for AVS forum members. If a device doesn't meet their targeted specs, then the device is failure and sure to flop in the market.

Personally, I'd prefer a young gerbil, but OK. I doubt that it will fail to meet its specs, but as has been pointed out many times, it is not for everyone. I've got my Mini connected directly to a projector that is hanging directly over it (the Mini), for example. But there are probably many, many people who would love to connect their Mac to an LCD or Plaza display and get the correct resolution. It is those people, I expect, will buy the product.

iPhone will sell like hotcakes at first. But it will have to evolve a bit to remain popular.

The battery issue is a minor concern for me (although, I agree with ftaok, the black section at the bottom of the back looks like it might be removeable). Of more concern:

Will the iPhone have voice-activated dialing. My last two phones (Moto V710 and Moto E815) have voice-activated dialing and I use it frequently, usually with a Bluetooth headset. I can't imagine going back to a phone that doesn't have voice-activated dialing.

Will it be compatible with the Bluetooth in most automobiles? Granted, a fairly new feature but one that's very valuable when driving.

I remain hopeful that these features will be addressed in iPhone. If not, it won't be a long-term success.

Mark

NYT has some disappointing news on the iPhone...

- currently it has no speed dial interface (one would have to imagine it will get added)
- Jobs is quoted as saying Java is not there as it is a "heavyweight ball and chain" no one uses.... tho I have to wonder if its also not there b/c it would be a backdoor around Apple controlling the apps on the phone. :(
- no GPS integration.. that Google demonstration seems awfully misleading unless Google got the location info some other way
- still up for grabs whether you can use your existing music as a ringtone (geez even my 8125 dumbphone does that...)... I can hear those cha-ching sounds in the background of this decision...

On the plus side, they confirmed you can add calendar info from the device, tho I considered that a given (scary that it was even up for discussion), else iPhone would not replace a PDA.

Mike

You have to remember Apple did not want to debut the iPhone they pretty much had to. The FCC certification was going to blow the lid on the whole thing and Apple wanted to intro the phone with as much of a bang as possible and I think they made the right move. Six months away is a long time to add and change things on that device. One of the most intriguing things about the design of the iPhone is the bare minimum of hardware buttons. This means they could really do just about anything they want feature and interface-wise.

I am not sure how the Google Maps demo was misleading though. I watched the keynote twice now, god I am such an Apple whore ;) , and both times I saw Steve enter in a search for Starbucks and use it to find the location and number of the store. The red thumb pin that dropped from the sky onto the Starbucks not the Moscone center. The whole time I was wishing that it did use GPS but was never under any illusion that it was being demoed that way.

-Jerry C.

Not too many people seem overly concerned that the iPhone battery isn't replaceable. I'd hate to be locked into a 2 year commitment and have the battery die half-way thru and have to shell out another $100 for some third party to replace the battery.

I bought a $150 iPod Nano with a non-replaceable battery, but that's about my price limit. It's remarkable what Apple gets away with.

I thought about this post for a bit, and then realized that I've never had a non-replaceable battery, or any battery die on me. It's not because I've had stellar luck, it's just because I've moved on to new products before the batteries died. I'm one of those earlier adopter latest gadget types.... a marketers wet dream. It gets me in trouble sometimes, but I have a feeling I'm not the only one of my kind.

- no GPS integration.. that Google demonstration seems awfully misleading unless Google got the location info some other way


The Google maps demo was just like using it from any PC.. He typed in "San Francisco", and it zoomed on the city. He then typed "Starbucks", and it put thumbtacks on the various locations.

The thumbtacks had a nice animated effect to stick into the map. That's the only part I saw that looked different than my normal google maps experience.


It would be nice if it had GPS capabilities. But, I don't think they were misleading at all.

Speaking of GPS.. Does anyone know if the various other phones that advertise "GPS" functionality are doing true GPS? Or are they doing some other location estimation via the cell network? I'm just basically wondering if that's a reasonable feature to expect for future versions.. do others really do it - or would it take too much power? GPS would be a fantastic feature, for mapping, for location integration on the photos taken with the iPhone camera, etc.

I am looking at getting the Eten M700 at about $650 unlocked....go to Eten.com to see the spec...but here some major points..

1) Sirf star built in GPS
2) quad band phone...no 3G
3) Edge and GPRS
4) wifi...a & G
5) SDIO micro sd card...so you can get 4gb and store all your music
6) play all music format include AAC and mp3
7) window mobile 5.0...500mhz pcoket pc
8) slide out keybd
9) bluetooth
10) touch screen.

you can get the x500...a lot thinner..because no keyboard.

Meh, more of the same stuff on other Windows Mobile that you see everywhere plus you have to buy that Micro card. I can't seem to find any bigger than 2GB and those are like $70. Playing on any of those Smart Phones has never been an enjoyable experience for me personally and they always seem to get jerky and unresponsive. If you like the Eten I say go for it but unless someone really needs some of the more business oriented features that some of the smart phones have I would say the iPhone looks to be a more fun consumer oriented product, as it stands now.

-Jerry C.

Meh, more of the same stuff on other Windows Mobile that you see everywhere plus you have to buy that Micro card. I can't seem to find any bigger than 2GB and those are like $70. ......... the iPhone looks to be a more fun consumer oriented product, as it stands now.

-Jerry C.

2G mini SD card for $23 on dealnews, 4G for $45 (mini is what my phone takes) took me 20 seconds to find that. If you need micro, give it a week, deals on such cards always cycle thru.

Agreed this is much more of a consumer device.. I still wonder that they aren't pricing it in the business realm ... its more expensive (even double) what many WM5 devices cost and Apple has said Cingular cannot give Premier customers (I am one) a discount.

When Jobs said we could run real desktop applications, I took that to mean we could copy over our own existing apps, tho all subsequent reports say this is not the case. I'm not sure how you can call something you have to buy thru iTunes, a real desktop app? Apple seems to not comprehend how much acceptance OS X has gotten b/c of having unix under the hood (and thus being so open).

Mike

I was surfing Appleinsider this AM, and found this Jobs quote (referrring to cell phone carriers)

"There's some hubris, where they think they know better," Jobs said. "They dictate what's on the phone. That just wouldn't work for us."

Personally, I find the irony striking... :)

Mike

When Jobs said we could run real desktop applications, I took that to mean we could copy over our own existing apps, tho all subsequent reports say this is not the case. I'm not sure how you can call something you have to buy thru iTunes, a real desktop app? Apple seems to not comprehend how much acceptance OS X has gotten b/c of having unix under the hood (and thus being so open).I think that there is enough uncertainty here with how Apple is going to support apps on the iPhone's OS X, that we need to wait until Apple clarifies the issue. There is raging debate over at Howard Forums about this issue, and it isn't productive. My opinion is that Apple needs to control tightly the roll-out of their first phone to assure success. Any little stumble due to instability caused by apps (or anything else for that matter) will be a huge media event, as the nay-sayers will devour Apple and its Apple-istas. Watch for the release of the iPhone to be one of the most highly watched, media reported, hyped and overblown product rollouts ever. Any apps bundled with the phone will meet strict assurance guidelines, whether they are built by Apple or not. Then as the iPhone is tested out, the third party environment will be invited in to whatever degree that Apple thinks is appropriate.

I believe that because the OS X will be optimized for whatever chip, it will necessarily be different from the Core Duo line that it runs on now. So whatever apps are run on it will most likely either have to be optimized for that OS (in a similar way that apps have to become universal binaries or Intel-native via xCode i.e.), or they will have to run in emulation (ala a Rosetta-esque environment). Look for much information to come out at WWDC this summer. And as Apple tightly controls both tools, they will be able to maintain ultimate control over what can run on the chip. Of course hackers will have a hey day (hay day??) trying to open up the iPhone. But I think that Apple will be walking a fine line between restricting and allowing access. Ultimately, they will have to allow whatever applications on the chip that its customers demand, or sales will suffer. With all of the potential of OS X, users won't be content with a handful of widgets and a calendar or addressbook, and Apple knows that.

So, once again we must wait and endure the dearth of info, and again be buffetted by the wrath of the rumor mongers... until??? If nothing else, Steve Jobs knows how to play the suspense card. Though if Apple doesn't throw some bones to the dogs, they will eat him up by release time.

As to using 4GB cards, just make sure that your phone can see them. Many devices have a 2GB limitation, although there may be ways to flash some of them to allow using cards over 2GB.

On another note, my extensively hacked 8125 is very stable, certainly more so than my old Palm 4 phone (which was, however a flip, which I miss.) But on the 8125, I have installed stuff useful to me, and on my main screen I can see scrolling RSS feed from the NYT, BBC and EndGadget, as well as updated weather forecast, upcoming appointments, email, etc.. I also have installed Lexipedia, which puts the WHOLE unabridged Wikipedia database (just under a gig) on your Mini Card. I also have TomTom GPS maps for when I am driving in Europe (works great with a credit-card sized BT Sirf III GPS:-)

Ironically, if you want the look of an iPhone now, there is already a fully working skin for WM5, which looks just like the iPhone:-) It has already been taken down from xda-forum, because Apple's attorneys obviously work on the weekend:-), but if one really wants it, it can be found....