Apple's new HDTV products [Text View]

gmwedding

01-09-07, 03:05 PM

Apple's relevent new products:

Apple TV $299
February ship date
http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/wa/RSLID?mco=AC3DA57D&nclm=AppleTV

Airport Extreme (802.11n) $179
February ship date
http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/wa/RSLID?mco=19333EBE&nplm=MA073LL%2FA

Apple iPhone $499 (4GB) and $599 (8GB)
A breakthrough cell phone/iPod/portable Internet device;
This will redefine the telecommunications industry and it makes all other cell phones obsolete
June ship date
http://www.apple.com/iphone/ipod/

Mac mini $599-$799
Does not appear to have been updated -- yet
(No Core2 Duo CPUs, no 802.11n, no beefed up video or HD;
I now expect a Core2 Duo/802.11n speed bump to occur down the road)
http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/wa/RSLID?mco=B3C47B0&nclm=Macmini

Apple Cinema Displays
Does not appear to have been updated -- yet
http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/wa/RSLID?pn=1&mco=65B5114B&nclm=B30BC981

Apple iSight
Does not appear to have been updated -- yet;
No iSight available at all at the Apple Store, but some accesories still are listed
http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/wa/RSLID?mco=3E1E9455&nclm=B7EFC2B4

JPEG

01-09-07, 03:27 PM

Very odd that there was no mention of this, at least in the various "live feeds" from the keynote.

Please post your news/rumors about 720p iTunes content on this thread...or point to a thread were you think this is better discussed.

Thanks,
JPEG

Daniel THB

01-09-07, 03:51 PM

Just looked through the apple site. Specs are interesting -- hdmi, 720p streaming through 802.11n, 40gb hd. Looks like 720p movie rentals/sales through Itunes is here. I'd definitely take advantage of the rental if the price is right.

gmwedding

01-09-07, 03:52 PM

Jobs did mention 720p content during the Apple TV discussion as noted during the www.macrumorslive.com blog that I monitored. I can't recall if the blog also noted whether the mentioned iTunes in this context, but upon reading it, I immediately assumed Apple will be bumping the quality of movie downloads to 720p. Also, the AppleTv supports component video and HDMI.

AntnyMD

01-09-07, 04:00 PM

Apple has been providing 720p HD trailers in iTunes Store for awhile now, and they attempt to stream over AirPort Extreme from computer-to-computer at my house. :-)

Having the Apple TV device be capable of HD means they will sell HD movies and probably TV shows.

It is highly unfortunate, though predictable, that Apple TV does not support MPEG2 video. Back to conversion-land.

... and because theres no analog S-Video or composite output, theres going to be no copying of content purchased (or rented if that is offered) from iTunes Store from the Apple TV.

Daniel THB

01-09-07, 04:01 PM

What other purpose could there be for the 720p capability but for iTunes movies?

The more I think about it, the more I like this device.

AntnyMD

01-09-07, 04:03 PM

What other purpose could there be for the 720p capability but for iTunes movies?

The more I think about it, the more I like this device.

Your own copies of unencrypted content from network HD television shows -- especially those from ABC and Fox.

Since Apple TV's specs state 720p @ 24fps (and no other frame-rates), even those HD tv shows will have to be converted from their broadcast frame rate of 59.94.

Maybe there are hidden specs like on the iPod -- like if you use MPEG4, you can have 720x480 resolution... I guess we won't know until these boxes turn up in the hands of users who like to test!

gmwedding

01-09-07, 04:08 PM

Odd footprint for new Apple TV vs. Mac mini/Airport Extreme. It would have to be stacked underneath the mini. I wonder why there is a 1.2-inch footprint difference? Maybe a new mini will be coming with a slightly larger footprint? But then, what about the Airport Extreme (802.11n) footprint? They all are designed to look alike, but the footprints don't match? what's with that?

Apple TV Specs
• Footprint: 7.7 by 7.7 inches (197 mm x 197 mm)
• Height: 1.1 inches (28 mm)

Apple Airport Extreme (802.11n)
• Footprint: 6.5 x 6.5 inches (165 mm x 165 mm)
• Height: 1.3 inches (34 mm)

Apple Mac mini (current model)
• Footprint: 6.5 x 6.5 inches (165 mm x 165 mm)
• Height: 2 inches (5.08 cm)

AntnyMD

01-09-07, 04:18 PM

I surmise they dont anticipate people having *both* a Mac mini and Apple TV by the television.

druber

01-09-07, 04:24 PM

Why would you want your router stacked beneath the TV? I'm surprised the new Airport Express only has 100BaseT, not Gigabit.

Sent a ticket in to ElGato asking about EyeTV500 recordings and Apple TV compatibility. Just for kicks last Saturday, I started transcoding a 30-minute HD recording in 720p to H.264 (8000kps Multipass via Toast) on my G4 1.25 Mini. As of this morning it was still chewing on the 5th pass. Wow. Sure going to need a better workflow than that.

[edit] Oh, I do also love that the HDMI cables listed on Apple's AppleTV site cost a whopping $20.

Doug_Eldred

01-09-07, 04:34 PM

Apple's relevent new products:

Airport TV $299
February ship date
http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/wa/RSLID?mco=AC3DA57D&nclm=AppleTV

That's Apple TV, right?

Andrew67

01-09-07, 04:46 PM

lsarver

01-09-07, 04:50 PM

It is highly unfortunate, though predictable, that Apple TV does not support MPEG2 video.
Amen!

Back to conversion-land.
Like hell!

This product is crippled. If it were truly capable, it would compete with the (more expensive) Mini. So now I'll look at Netgear and D-Link, who may finally have got it right after a couple of false starts, and watch for the update to the Mini.

Andrew67

01-09-07, 04:53 PM

Amen!

Like hell!

This product is crippled. If it were truly capable, it would compete with the (more expensive) Mini. So now I'll look at Netgear and D-Link, who may finally have got it right after a couple of false starts, and watch for the update to the Mini.

The specs on the Netgear and D-Link products state they require Windows. That may or may not be the end of the story, but as of now, they're worthless to those of us in the Mac world.

Doug_Eldred

01-09-07, 05:07 PM

I can't imagine anyone having the Apple TV stacked under the Airport or the mini. It's wireless and is supposed to exist "away" from traditional computer equipment. Stacking the TV and the Airport makes sense and those footprints do match.
You meant "stacking the MINI and the AirPort make sense...", right?

Andrew67

01-09-07, 05:15 PM

You meant "stacking the MINI and the AirPort make sense...", right?

doh! yes.

gmwedding

01-09-07, 05:20 PM

I'm not at all bothered by a lack of MPEG2 support in the Apple TV. MPEG 2 is the past - MPEG 4 is the future. Since we have never donwloaded, created or stored MPEG2 movies (like most people), its omission is no big deal.

So why would one necessarily choose to locate the Apple TV away from the HDTV component cabinet? If it's wireless, I'm having a problem visualizing something about a network setup that places it elsewhere, but I also am sure I am missing something conceptual...I also was hoping it would double as a WiFi router, but that probably was hoping for too much for that $299 price point.

It certainly sounds like an updated Mac mini, an Airport Extreme (802.11n) and an Apple TV would make for a nice system. I'm envisioning using a Mac mini connected to the component cabinet at all times, but use the Apple TV to send video to other computers in a home/office. However, I guess one could skip the Mac mini and just use the Apple TV to stream everything to your laptop or other Mac or PC?

Can someone here sketch out a viable, cost-effective network with these components?

Doug_Eldred

01-09-07, 05:23 PM

I think the Apple TV is RECEIVING video, not SENDING it. And it's wireless as far as networking, but wired as far as connecting to the TV via HDMI/component.

bommai

01-09-07, 05:26 PM

Apple TV does not stream to other computers. It streams from other computers. Its only output is to a physically connected TV (through component video or HDMI).

This product if for people that have one or more computers that are spread out in the home and have none connected to their TV (HDTV is the intended target for Apple TV).

It allows people to gather in front of their TV and watch slide shows, listen to music, watch movies and TV shows (either downloaded from iTunes, or home converted in H.264 format).

gmwedding

01-09-07, 05:26 PM

Well then, I think it really must be designed to be IN the component cabinet as well, given the need for an HDMI connection the big screen TV. So does this mean that you don't need the Apple TV if you have a Mac mini in the component cabinet?

Wouldn't you need one of these (Apple TV) in the Mac mini-equipped component cabinet if you also wanted to stream content to other Macs?

ftaok

01-09-07, 05:26 PM

So why would one necessarily choose to locate the Apple TV away from the HDTV component cabinet? If it's wireless, I'm having a problem visualizing something about a network setup that places it elsewhere, but I also am sure I am missing something conceptual...I also was hoping it would double as a WiFi router, but that probably was hoping for too much for that $299 price point.
I think you have it backwards, but I could be wrong as well.

The AppleTV is connected to your TV, so it would sit in your component cabinet. It syncs directly with your main computer, let's say the Mac mini in your office. If you have another Mac or PC in the house, let's say the gaming rig you have in the basement, you can only stream media from that Mac/PC to the AppleTV. Not the other way around.

I could be wrong, but that's how I read the keynote updates.

ft

Doug_Eldred

01-09-07, 05:30 PM

I think the Apple TV is an ALTERNATIVE to having a more expensive (but more capable) Mini connected directly to your TV/AVR. You might have the Mini (or any Mac) elsewhere, storing all the media files (music, movies, TV, podcasts, photos, etc.) and the Apple TV simply accesses the Mini/whatever over the network. If you already have a Mini/whatever connected directly to your TV, you don't need the Apple TV, unless it has some specific feature that's better, or unless you want to move the TV-Mini somewhere else.

gmwedding

01-09-07, 05:31 PM

Why do I think in this way? Because my first instinct is that I wouldn't want to tie up my main work computer as a video server...

Doug_Eldred

01-09-07, 05:37 PM

Exactly why I have a Mini attached to my TV, and my Power Mac upstairs sleeps when it's not in use. And why I'm probably not a good candidate for Apple TV 1.0.

actionPlant

01-09-07, 05:41 PM

That's how I understood it as well, ftaok.

I'm mostly concerned about DD, if it passes AC-3 over converted H.264 films I'm all for hooking up a mini to a network storage device, streaming content from that through an airport and putting an AppleTV in the livingroom, bedroom, and possibly theater.

An USB HDTV tuner with an integrated remote would just be gravy.

I guess we'll see.

Plasmali

01-09-07, 06:58 PM

The Ethernet spec listed is for 10/100. Every other Mac now has Gigabit. This looks to me to be too slow for wired networks and HD streaming. Wireless is nice, but wired is always more stable.

Also, they have not listed the HDMI spec. Is it the new 1.3 spec? I can't seem to find it anywhere on Apple's site.

What else is missing? How about a build-to-order option for larger hard drives? Also, no spec for the hard drive speed (I suspect it may be 5,400 rpm)

Still an interesting product for the price.

maybe the new Minis will come with the same capabilities as the Apple TV, same software, bigger drives, HDMI, etc.... maybe what we are seeing here in the Apple TV is the new Front Row.

NewOrlnsDukie

01-09-07, 07:05 PM

makes absolutely zero sense that this isn't gigabit (and makes me think the likelihood of a future 1080p firmware update ala the 360 is a pipe-dream)

no mpeg-2 certainly sucks.

As many of us suspected, this is much more of an itunes store revenue tool than a true media server.

I'll be very curious as to whether the itunes prefs are going to allow us to do aliasing to external drives and (more importantly) NAS's.

That being said, I bought one already. :)

gmwedding

01-09-07, 07:32 PM

The Ethernet spec listed is for 10/100. Every other Mac now has Gigabit.

Yeah, I also see the lack of gigabit Ethernet on both the Apple TV and the new Airport Extreme (802.11n) as a very big problem. We just installed three new gigabit switches on our LAN to get a hard-wired gigabit backbone to the computer and router locations. I was anticipating a new gigabit router and a gigabit Apple TV. This 10/100 spec makes no sense. I am hoping the spec is a misprint on the Web site. With three Ethernet ports, the new Airport Extreme would have been a logical connection point for attaching an NAS...

What about this am I missing now? It seems like someone had both eyes on the fabulous new iPhone but forgot to check these products for fatal flaws...

Andrew67

01-09-07, 07:37 PM

anthonymartin

01-09-07, 07:47 PM

Really, the only thing that bothers me right now is the audio. I don't see any support for surround sound. No 5.1 bums me out. I hope the optical passes AC3 5.1.

gmwedding

01-09-07, 08:20 PM

Lack of gigabit on the Airport Extreme is a problem, but it's not an issue on the Apple TV. 1080p television is a mere 19mb/s and next gen optical formats average 25mb/s. Gigabit speeds simply aren't needed.

Even on a busy network with multiple users moving around large photo files from a NAS while someone else is streaming and watching HDTV, another is listening to music while another person or two surfs the Web and uploads movie or photo files?

lightusr

01-09-07, 08:40 PM

Even on a busy network with multiple users moving around large photo files from a NAS while someone else is streaming and watching HDTV, another is listening to music while another person or two surfs the Web and uploads movie or photo files?

First, most networking devices out there are switches not hubs which means that you get 100mb/sec regardless of other network activity out there UNLESS you saturate the backplane of the switch. Switches typically have at least enough capacity in them to operate under 60-100% load.

The next most likely bottleneck is your NAS device, server or desktop which would be hosting the data. If you're worried about a lot of activity stopping any type of playback then make sure your source (NAS or whatever) has gigE on it and is plugged into a gigE switch with everything else including your 5 Apple TV's plugged into the switch.

Lastly, if you're using a NAS device to host those pictures and movies, chances are that it doesn't have enough drives in a striped config or data in ram to sustain data rates to saturate the network.

Andrew67

01-09-07, 08:41 PM

Even on a busy network with multiple users moving around large photo files from a NAS while someone else is streaming and watching HDTV, another is listening to music while another person or two surfs the Web and uploads movie or photo files?

Still not a problem because the Apple TV is a destination and not a server. If the Apple TV is a client on a gigabit network then it only needs so much bandwidth. From all accounts I've seen this device is a single user device, it does one thing at a time and no more. You can't use it to listen to music and stream a movie. Now if the Apple TV was serving content then it might be an issue, but it doesn't.

chefklc

01-09-07, 09:00 PM

Just another reason why a core duo mini might be the much better "extender" than an Apple TV.

Lack of gigabit on the Airport Extreme is a problem

Agreed, and it seems we'll have to put our gigabit switches behind the new Extreme as we do with the current Extreme--that way our wired gigabit Macs will still be able to send large files back and forth quickly. Just another mini over Apple TV incentive. Apple obviously realizes this, and would rather upsell a $600 device.

Geo, just a suggestion, but I think it's time to stop speculating and start doing--start recording high def, start doing home theater things with a Intel core duo Mac, start streaming and sending, etc, apart from the photography work you're already doing with older Macs. I think you'd start to understand things more. I might be mistaken but it seems you're still on the outside looking in. And if not, I apologize. It's just a vibe I keep getting from your posts.

druber

01-09-07, 09:08 PM

Perhaps a dumb question, but I'm not a networking guy (thank goodness). Put an 802.11b device on an 802.11g network and the whole network drops to the lower speed. Any similar hit from using a mixed 100BaseT/1000BaseT network?

chefklc

01-09-07, 09:17 PM

If you get a switch that autosenses, no, you'll be fine--a smart switch knows what each device is capable of--when two gigabit Macs are connected, you'll get gigabit speeds, when a slower 100 device is connected to a gigabit device, you'll get 100. It isn't like the way you have to configure Airport to accept both b and g--which drops everyone down to b. And it's why the core duo mini with gigabit, despite its other faults, was so valued--it didn't matter to many of us that it had ****** laptop compromises--as long as it has the punch to play back high def and had gigabit.

Jumbo frames are a different matter when it comes to gigabit. All bets are off mixing devices which support jumbo and which do not.

What about this am I missing now? It seems like someone had both eyes on the fabulous new iPhone but forgot to check these products for fatal flaws...

Geo, if you approach this from the perspective that Apple is mainly interested in leveraging iTunes store content in the near term, all becomes clear.

Jimwesternguy

01-09-07, 09:53 PM

A few questions about the device are answered at ArsTechnica:

http://arstechnica.com/journals/apple.ars/2007/1/9/6543

ATX

01-09-07, 09:57 PM

does anyone know if apple tv will run a flavor of osx? and is there any hope for a current mini user to use this product to access video_ts files over a local area network? :)

ATX

01-09-07, 10:02 PM

A few questions about the device are answered at ...

sorry - just saw the link to the reply about video_ts. :(

lsarver

01-09-07, 10:46 PM

The specs on the Netgear and D-Link products state they require Windows. That may or may not be the end of the story, but as of now, they're worthless to those of us in the Mac world.
I know Netgear's website does say that, BUT it also says that the EVA8000 supports "SMB Networking (includes Macintosh)". Check here (http://www.netgear.com/Products/Entertainment/DigitalMediaPlayers/EVA8000.aspx?detail=Specifications), about half-way down the page.

The D-Link DSM-750 page (http://www.dlink.com/products/?pid=547) list neither requirements nor specifications, just "features."

Of course they support Windows, but do they require it?

lsarver

01-09-07, 10:52 PM

However, I guess one could skip the Mac mini and just use the Apple TV to stream everything to your laptop or other Mac or PC?
I'd do the opposite: skip the AppleTV and use the Mini to route all my "old-school" MPEG2 and other media to the HDTV. I want my options broadened, not narrowed.

lsarver

01-09-07, 10:54 PM

stevenassco

01-10-07, 01:29 AM

Just another reason why a core duo mini might be the much better "extender" than an Apple TV.

Agreed, and it seems we'll have to put our gigabit switches behind the new Extreme as we do with the current Extreme--that way our wired gigabit Macs will still be able to send large files back and forth quickly. Just another mini over Apple TV incentive. Apple obviously realizes this, and would rather upsell a $600 device.
.

as far as I know, there are not any consumer/media based wireless routers or servers capable of streaming Gbps? Switches are not wireless so that is mute point

also the Mac Mini would be a GREAT AV PC, but fails in 1 place big time - connectivety to the output source (TV, receiver, DVD player etc). The Apple TV can not only accept wireless signal and make that solid connection to the souce, but it can do so in quality. HDMI, optical and coaxial connections. The MINI only has DVI/VGA to pass video, no HDMI and how are you going to connect the audio?

if the Apple TV is basically like a Squeezbox with some upgrades like HDMI, "N", dual gHz etc....I am sure the next version Squeezbox/Transporter will have these as well

so If the Apple TV as stated prior could do what it does + be a wireless router all in one - that would be nice but sort of mute point as it would have to physically connected to your modem & computer.

gmwedding

01-10-07, 02:38 AM

,,,Geo, just a suggestion, but I think it's time to stop speculating and start doing--start recording high def, start doing home theater things with a Intel core duo Mac, start streaming and sending...

Chefklc:

Of course, you're right. But in the interim, I've also done this stuff using the G4 PowerBook and have some basic ideas of what I think is really needed to give a newer, Intel-based entry level system like this a reasonable lifespan. As a result, we've just been waiting for a little better Mac mini with a Core2 Duo, a larger HD, and 802.11n. Ideally, I'd also like one with separate video RAM (256MB), but that doesn't seem to be coming anytime soon. So as soon as a Core2 Duo model comes out, we'd like to get one...

bommai

01-10-07, 03:02 AM

as far as I know, there are not any consumer/media based wireless routers or servers capable of streaming Gbps? Switches are not wireless so that is mute point

also the Mac Mini would be a GREAT AV PC, but fails in 1 place big time - connectivety to the output source (TV, receiver, DVD player etc). The Apple TV can not only accept wireless signal and make that solid connection to the souce, but it can do so in quality. HDMI, optical and coaxial connections. The MINI only has DVI/VGA to pass video, no HDMI and how are you going to connect the audio?

if the Apple TV is basically like a Squeezbox with some upgrades like HDMI, "N", dual gHz etc....I am sure the next version Squeezbox/Transporter will have these as well

so If the Apple TV as stated prior could do what it does + be a wireless router all in one - that would be nice but sort of mute point as it would have to physically connected to your modem & computer.

You are mistaken. A Mac Mini can do everything the Apple TV can do and more. Mac Mini has DVI and optical audio output. This basically removes the need for a HDMI connector also. So, for non-DRM'd content, I would use mac Mini. The disadvantage of the Mini is that you might need to plug in your keyboard/mouse once in a while for maintenance while the Apple TV is designed to not do that.

wildrock

01-10-07, 03:10 AM

we've just been waiting for a little better Mac mini with a Core2 Duo, a larger HD, and 802.11n. Ideally, I'd also like one with separate video RAM (256MB), but that doesn't seem to be coming anytime soon. So as soon as a Core2 Duo model comes out, we'd like to get one...I am waiting for the next Mini (or another dedicated HTPC form factor) to come out also. But in the meantime, my MacBook is a good testbed. I'd really rather buy a 2Ghz+ C2D as a dedicated HTPC box. it should be coming down the road soon. the Mini is the only Mac that hasn't been updated to C2D. It's about time. And from what I remember, the 64MB RAM that the gpu pulls from the main RAM can be increased up to 256MB. It's just limited by firmware. Once the Mini ships with 1GB standard RAM, Apple may up the RAM allocation for the gpu. that would be nice.

NewOrlnsDukie

01-10-07, 03:31 AM

well, not being able to do HDMI means the mini will only send compressed audio and never be able to provide uncompressed, but that's being a bit nitpicky I guess (considering I'd be shocked if appleTV would ever do uncompressed 5.1-7.1 anyway).

I have to admit a next-gen mini would be tempting instead of appleTV, but I'll be VERY curious to see what the next iteration of Front Row shows us. I have a core duo in the bedroom as an HTPC, and I have to admit that it's still most definitely a computer rather than a smooth HT component. One of the reasons I'm getting this one (same reason I'm a first adopter for most electronics) is b/c I generally enjoy seeing products "grow up" over time. I must admit that, w/ Apple, that can cause buyer's remorse sometimes, b/c they have more of a tendency to make frequent new generations of products w/ better innards, rather than the infrequent hardware change w/ firmware upgrades in the interim (hence the 4 different generations of ipods that I have strewn about my life...)

lsarver

01-10-07, 05:08 AM

also the Mac Mini would be a GREAT AV PC, but fails in 1 place big time - connectivety to the output source (TV, receiver, DVD player etc). The Apple TV can not only accept wireless signal and make that solid connection to the souce, but it can do so in quality. HDMI, optical and coaxial connections. The MINI only has DVI/VGA to pass video, no HDMI and how are you going to connect the audio?
You don't know what you're talking about--

Video: The mini's DVI-I is perfectly compatible with HDMI. All you need is an adapter or a DVI/HDMI cable. The AppleTV's HDMI adds nothing. (The VGA is optional--via an aapter--and unnecessary.)

Audio: the mini also has a digital optical output (mini TOSLink).

Why would you want to connect either the mini or AppleTV to a DVD player? Connect to your TV, for crying out loud. FWIW, the mini includes a DVD player.

You consider wireless a "solid connection"? Not for HD.

Quality: With Intel Core Duo under the hood (soon to be Core 2 Duo?), the mini can likely process any signal the AppleTV can, but faster and better. If anything, the shortcoming so far has been software developers' (FR, DVD Player) failure to exploit the hardware's power.

At best, the AppleTV is a subset of the Mac mini--intended mainly to suck cash from your pocket into iTunes Music Store.

lsarver

01-10-07, 05:31 AM

well, not being able to do HDMI means the mini will only send compressed audio and never be able to provide uncompressed
Huh? Which audio? Send it where? To what end? I hardly know where to begin.

1. HDMI is mainly a video interface. Yes, it can also carry multichannel audio--even uncompressed (1.3)--to your receiver or pre/pro. Most TV's can't handle that audio anyway. And most don't sound very good either.

2. The audio is only compressed through the mini if it is compressed in the original, e.g., AC-3 from a ripped DVD. The mini didn't compress it. It would be thus compressed using any transport device.

3. So what? Compression is undesirable only if it's lossy.

4. Most users who care about sound would rather have any decoding and D/A conversion do by their pre/pros or receivers than by any PC.

5. None of the uncompressed formats you may have in mind (SACD, DVD-A, DolbyTrueHD, etc?--it's not clear) has any way to get onto your server or mini anyway. (Except maybe for DVD-A) all must be played from the original disk on a dedicated universal and/or hi-def DVD player.

So what is it you're lamenting?

chefklc

01-10-07, 08:45 AM

I hardly know where to begin.

lsarver, thanks, there was a little too much misinformation and/or FUD in the post by stevenassco and I wasn't sure what NewOrlnsDukie really meant, either, just to let that hang out there without a response.

as far as I know, there are not any consumer/media based wireless routers or servers capable of streaming Gbps? Switches are not wireless so that is mute point

I'm not sure where you're coming from, Steve, or how much experience you have with home theater, but it seems you're misjudging both 1) what we've been able to do up to this point with core duo Macs, and distributing both Apple lossless and high def throughout the house, and 2) misreading the likely impact and value of what was announced yesterday re: Apple TV. Have you done anything with a Mac or PC or third-party extender besides sending iTunes audio through an AVR?

Dukie--if you're jumping ahead to Blu-ray audio via HDMI I think that's much too far a leap to even worry about now. The current mini is but a cheap entry level device that we're stretching to, if not past, its limits--the next gen mini a la C2D and perhaps slightly better graphics will also be a cheap entry level device. Like lsarver said quite well, the iTV/Apple TV is a subset of the mini--it's Apple's way of diverting attention from what we really want to be able to do, generate a bunch of new revenue re: iTS, and keep the masses happy with something simple and seamless which won't require a lot of support time on their part--it's genius, really.

Most of us will find it completely untenable for our needs.

I must admit that, w/ Apple, that can cause buyer's remorse sometimes, b/c they have more of a tendency to make frequent new generations of products w/ better innards, rather than the infrequent hardware change w/ firmware upgrades in the interim

well, not sure I agree with this statement from a historical perspective, but with the switch to Intel we do have a better idea of what's coming down the pike in terms of performance upgrades, it'll be easier to predict the upgrades because that's all out in the open now rather than secretive and surprising, as it was in the PPC era. The far bigger hurdle forward for us--in a home theater sense--will be Leopard rather than the normal hardware progression, anyway.

Doug_Eldred

01-10-07, 09:51 AM

For Internet access, most consumers have nowhere near 100 Mbit/sec access today. Between Macs and PCs and the Apple TV, Wi-Fi -n speed will be fine. I'm not overly concerned about gigabit Ethernet for home use.

marjen

01-10-07, 10:30 AM

one interesting thing i saw on the spec page. It requires itunes 7.1. I believe 7.0.2 is the current version. So maybe HD content or some other things coming in that update.

chefklc

01-10-07, 10:49 AM

I'm not overly concerned about gigabit Ethernet for home use

That's because you're still somewhat of an HT newbie, Doug (and I mean that in a nice way) since you just got your first HDTV and you're just starting to think about home theater from a networked perspective. You probably also aren't trying to share that content around the house to multiple Macs, displays and AVRs. Believe me, once you get up and running as more of a power user, once you start archiving and storing large high def files, you'll be thankful you have Macs on a wired gigabit network.

On the other hand, if you plan to buy all your content from iTS, and don't record high def yourself with something like the EyeTV500, or don't mind spending a ton of time converting content so Front Row and Apple TV will play it, then you're right, gigabit won't matter to you.

Internet access (and speed) is relatively meaningless at the moment, right now that has little impact within our home theaters. We'll have to wait for future (better) content delivery models, i.e. iTS downloading of 720p files, to care much more about it. And that's out of our hands anyway.

Pre "n" is a bit of a diversion as well. Just a promise waiting to be fulfilled in real-world terms.

Doug_Eldred

01-10-07, 11:07 AM

Sure, but in fairness to Apple the target audience for the Apple TV is a consumer who will be using Wi-Fi to feed material from one or more Macs/PCs, not the HT gurus here. For the latter, I'm sure that the $299 Apple TV will have a number of shortcomings versus a "real" Mac as HTPC.

telemike

01-10-07, 11:19 AM

bommai

01-10-07, 12:08 PM

I am very interested in this affordable media server. I do wish it had DIVX (maybe it can be hacked?). Otherwise, I can backup my dvd collection using NERO to MPEG-4. I wonder how it will do with wireless-G 54 mbs? I don't want to upgrade my network yet.

It has a 40GB HD, so if you want you can line up some MPEG4 movies on your PC to be synced to the Mac. Then the playback on Apple TV will be from its local HD and no network bandwidth issues to worry about.

Doug_Eldred

01-10-07, 12:12 PM

Plus, according to an earlier post, HD only needs 19-25 Mbit/sec, so -g or -n speeds should be okay as long as the effective throughput is in at least that; that's roughly 50% of -g rated bandwidth, obviously a smaller percentage for -n. Things like a really busy network, slow devices, ineffective bandwidth utilization, weak signals, etc. might skew this.

telemike

01-10-07, 12:32 PM

It has a 40GB HD, so if you want you can line up some MPEG4 movies on your PC to be synced to the Mac. Then the playback on Apple TV will be from its local HD and no network bandwidth issues to worry about.

That's why I like the Apple TV idea!

swSteve

01-10-07, 01:19 PM

gmwedding writes:
I'm not at all bothered by a lack of MPEG2 support in the Apple TV. MPEG 2 is the past - MPEG 4 is the future. Since we have never donwloaded, created or stored MPEG2 movies (like most people), its omission is no big deal.

Ever heard of iMovie?

It edits MPEG-2 video from HDV Camcorders.

Looks like you can't play those files on this device.

ST

wildrock

01-10-07, 01:43 PM

I must admit that, w/ Apple, that can cause buyer's remorse sometimes, b/c they have more of a tendency to make frequent new generations of products w/ better innards, rather than the infrequent hardware change w/ firmware upgrades in the interim (hence the 4 different generations of ipods that I have strewn about my life...)There's also a huge difference here between Apple's computer products, and their CE products. Hard to generalize from one to the other. Not knowing the architecture of the appleTV makes it a little harder to predict its future. But with the move to 802.11(n), Apple has put (n) capable chips in their computers for the last 6 months or so (most C2D machines, I believe), but limited their speed to (g). Now with the release of Airport Extreme (n), Apple will activate the (n) capabilities of those machines (via firmware i think). And Apple has a resistance to wanting CE devices to have to undergo a firmware upgrade, as the average consumer doesn't have a clue about it. So they keep the specs very predictable with clear hardware upgrades.

As to buyer's remorse, no matter what kind of electronics you buy, CE or computer, there always be remorse, as prices always go down, and features always advance. So many of us either jump in and deal with what we have, and try to future-proof our purchases, or we wait for things to get cheap enough to do what we want now, and not care about having all the newest goo-gaws. I think that what most of us here would want is a more extensible architecture from Apple so that we can easily add in future technologies and features. Third party developers will deliver here for software what Apple will not (given that Apple doesn't put up barricades that can't be breached). But it is up to Apple to give us a hardware platform that we want, so we can geek away. This is the area that the Windows platform has a huge one-up on the Mac. Not that the technology is necessarily any better, just that the environment is more open to modification and enhancement (and the pitfalls that come with it). Sure, we could go out and buy a MacPro or an xServe and have a great hardware system, but at what cost--$$$, size, sound, power??? And the software/hardware integration just isn't there yet. But it is coming. And patience for this tech crowd doesn't come easy, I've found out. :D

And for those on the dark side, I have to laugh every time one of my clients with a MCE PC call, and pay me to come and show them as simple of a thing as how to use the removeable drive to move files from their laptop to the MCE (file sharing? too complicated). And then call me several times to remind them how to do it again. And the rest of the machine's capabilities just sits unused. But they thought it was cool to buy a MCE. Hook it up to the TV? Why do that??? LOL Plug a camera in? Huh???

Ted Todorov

01-10-07, 02:03 PM

You are mistaken. A Mac Mini can do everything the Apple TV can do and more. Mac Mini has DVI and optical audio output. This basically removes the need for a HDMI connector also. So, for non-DRM'd content, I would use mac Mini. The disadvantage of the Mini is that you might need to plug in your keyboard/mouse once in a while for maintenance while the Apple TV is designed to not do that.
Actually you can you can do most maintenance via VNC from another computer (that's what I do as I am usually running my Mini headless). No keyboard or mouse required.

bdraw

01-10-07, 02:23 PM

The Apple TV has a great niche to fit in, that is different from a Mini.

The Apple TV doesn't have a brick power supply, just like most CE devices.
It does support MPEG2, but only 640x480 30fps, hopefully more, but that is what is listed on the apple site.
100Mbps is fast enough especially considering the speed of the internal HDD which i am sure is only 5400, tops. Gig is really only used for large file transfers and even then consumer hardware can't take that much of an advantage of it.

The mini does have more functionality, but really doesn't live up to the "It just works" apple slogan. Harder to configure (component, resolutions), harder to setup (need keyboard and mouse) no Coverflow in Frontrow and other cool Apple TV features (may come in an Frontrow update), no sync built into iTunes (ATV shows up into itunes as a device like an ipod).

Is your Mac pro off at night? no problem all your shows and music are synced to your ATV. 40GB sucks pretty bad especially considering they make iPods with twice that much that don't support HD. Hopefully it uses a standard laptop drive and not the 1.8 from an iPod.

The biggest questions to me are, "DD5.1 support via toslink?", 720p iTunes content and 3rd party plug in support.

The one saving grace about CODEC support is the existence of programs like transcode360 which allow you to transcode any content to the Xbox360 real time since the 360 only support WM9. It would surprise me if software like this doesn't come out for the ATV.

Check out my entire HD perspective.
http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/01/09/apple-tv-an-hd-perspective/

Doug_Eldred

01-10-07, 02:27 PM

Exactly. The people on this forum are hardly the target audience for the Apple TV. I'm not planning to trade in my Mini, and I'm still at the low end of what people here want!

almostinsane

01-10-07, 02:27 PM

mpeg 2 is NOT supported.

- Video formats supported: H.264 and protected H.264 (from iTunes Store): 640 by 480, 30 fps, LC version of Baseline Profile; 320 by 240, 30 fps, Baseline profile up to Level 1.3; 1280 by 720, 24 fps, Progressive Main Profile. MPEG-4: 640 by 480, 30 fps, Simple Profile

And 1080i isn't supported by component either. (But I do love engadget! Keep up the outstanding work)

bdraw

01-10-07, 02:31 PM

Good catch,
Interesting that they would bother mentioning MPEG4 when it is so close to H.264. Funny how we someones read what we want to read.

Thanks for the correction.

tommylotto

01-10-07, 03:43 PM

What do you mean 1080i is not supported by component? The specs page lists 1080i as a supported resolution. Is that only via HDMI? If so, where did you see that? I may have to cancel my order.

nashou66

01-10-07, 03:44 PM

Also, the new airport extream will have access to usb hard drive connected to it , hence using that hard drive as a server should the 40 gig drive in the Apple tv be insufficiant. Also this will free up all the drives in your other macs. and the usb port on the extream will now accept a usb hub so if you want multiple printers or drives it will be posibe unlike before. Imagine copying al your dvds to a drive then putting a Apple tv at every tv in your home. nice if it works!

bdraw

01-10-07, 03:52 PM

It supports 1080i out, but only 720p content.
It will scale the 720p to your 1080i tv.

anthonymartin

01-10-07, 07:37 PM

Any word on AC3 passthrough through toslink?

gmwedding

01-10-07, 09:13 PM

Ever heard of iMovie?

It edits MPEG-2 video from HDV Camcorders.

Looks like you can't play those files on this device.

ST

Yikes. There's always some "gotcha" with this stuff and that is a good one I had forgotten about. Fortunately, we don't have an HDV Camcorder either, though like many others, we'd like to have one. I've also been watching for one that does MPEG-4.

swSteve

01-11-07, 03:20 AM

Yeah - it looks like Apple has some awkward choices:

1. Pretend the problem doesn't exist.
(after all, iMovie mostly edits DV. No wait... APPLETV doesn't do DV either right? Not good)

2. Add an "Export to APPLETV" button in iMovie.
This more or less exists, but not as a simple button.

Downside is the considerable processing time crunching DV or HD into H.264, although
many user movies are short.

It may also create large disk files if you try to use it to evaluate raw footage.

3. Add H264 editing to iMovieHD
This would let people use some new H264 camcorders

My understanding is that iMovieHD will edit H264 only after a slow conversion
into its internal format. (This may not be a problem if the import process becomes fast.)

Another problem is that even if you start with H264 at 1080 you'll still need to downconvert to
720 which will take time.

It looks like it's better matched to iTunes than iMovie.

Who knows? Perhaps we can look forward to something similar that's more
suited to iMovieHD and FCPro.

ST

Daniel THB

01-11-07, 09:39 AM

As someone earlier in the thread mentioned, this is basically an iPod for your TV. I think the possibility of 720p movie rentals alone makes this product intriguing, along with the music streaming functionality, but am unsure if the value is there for the $300 price tag.

nightfly13

01-11-07, 11:52 AM

Just a quick question I see a lot of mentions of 'renting' 720p content (as oposed to buying) - can I ask what that's based on? I haven't been able to stream the whole keynote properly - did Steve talk about renting 720p from iTMS? As a HD-DVD supporter, I'd be quite interested in buying disney/pixar 720p flicks if they were reasonable, but I'm worried as SD is already $15 for say Pirates 2....

tji

01-11-07, 12:38 PM

Doesn't iMovieHD already support export to H.264? That's the HD part. They added their own HD DVD format, which uses H.264 video. I've never used this, but I think that's what they have.

The lack of MPEG2 support is a show stopper for me. This means there is no reasonable way to view HDTV captures from El Gato devices or MythTV (reasonable meaning without a several hour conversion process). I was hoping I could get one of these and free up my Core Duo Mac Mini from its HTPC duties.

Oh well, I guess this is for someone with less exotic usage requirements than us at AVSForum.. It wil make a great device for allowing my Mom to show iPhoto slideshows on her HDTV, or even download movies if they are priced competitively. Althought I doubt this will be the case.. Downloading songs is fine, I prefer to not have the physical discs taking up space. I can easily archive/backup the songs. But, for movies, archiving quickly becomes space prohibitive, making the physical disc a good backup solution (also allowing for lending/sharing with friends and family). Paying $10+ for a movie download probably won't be a big seller for me. But, paying $3 for a restricted rental might work.

chefklc

01-11-07, 12:54 PM

swSteve--excellent post.

I see a lot of mentions of 'renting' 720p content (as opposed to buying) - can I ask what that's based on?

it's just one of the curious (change a few letters and you get spurious) possibilities being raised based on the announced specs, limited codec and resolution support of the device, add that up, combine it with how obviously this device is tied to iTunes and downloaded iTS content, and that's what shakes out.

There's a certain logic to it, though: AppleTV supports 720p at 24fps, it's been touted to play back any file supported by iTunes, hence the expectation that a future version of iTunes will support and a future iteration of the iTS will offer that 720p content. (Of course, there's zero guarantee recorded 720p broadcast content will be supported.)

this is basically an iPod for your TV

which, like tji just said, means it'll be DOA for most of us, who have much better things to do than transcode, let alone deal with that vague USB port, apparent lack of AC-3, video_ts or MPEG-2 support, lack of gigabit, etc.

Let the consumers buy in initially. Baby steps. And we can set anyone else smart enough to drop in here straight.

almostinsane

01-11-07, 01:12 PM

The USB port on the back isn't for adding more storage, it's for servicing the box.

This is a thin client for iTunes, nothing more.

Further

01-11-07, 01:29 PM

This is a thin client for iTunes, nothing more.

That's a very negative way of looking at.

1. For the many people who have some sort of TV set that the Mac (computer) can't seem to match resolution, this is a quick, convenient and easy solution.

2. For people who can't (or won't) run a cable from their computer to their TV, this is also a solution.

3. Considering it has local storage, a form of Front Row built in and includes a remote control, people who lack one of the new computers with Front Row and a remote control can use an older machine (such as my PPC G5) to gain both Front Row and a remote control.

It may not do much for you, but that doesn't many there aren't lots of other people who might find it quite attractive.

chefklc

01-11-07, 01:40 PM

The USB port on the back isn't for adding more storage, it's for servicing the box

Yeah, guess that's where the "vague" implementation part comes into play. Thin clients aren't as flexible, but this will have storage, and people have all these USB devices lying around, it's a natural assumption that they can plug them into USB ports. Just not this one, the only one on any Apple product that isn't obvious to the end user. How value-added might it have been if instead of "service and diagnostics" one could plug in an external hard drive, a friend's iPod, a USB tuner stick, a printer, whatever, and have any of these things recognized by the device or seen on the network?

I know, would have confused the message. Just makes you think what might have been...

almostinsane

01-11-07, 02:07 PM

That's a very negative way of looking at.

That's exactly what the box is. It plays ONLY what is in your iTunes library. Doesn't play from a share, xvid/divx content, EyeTV recorded files, DVD's/HD-DVD's, or SVCD's.

Don't try to make this out to be some break through product for the living room. There are plenty of products out in the market that do more for the same price or less.

I love Apple as much as the next person but not every product is a homerun. I am glad they upgraded the Airport. I can finally replace my extreme with one that does A and N.

Doug_Eldred

01-11-07, 02:26 PM

Which products do more for less?

telemike

01-11-07, 02:30 PM

nightfly13

01-11-07, 02:33 PM

Yeah I had a friend who spent 2h reading up on AppleTV very interested finally I talked him out of his enthusiam - it doesn't play divx (and we have thousands of divx files) because that's direct competition to the iTMS, thus, the box is crippled. Doesn't even play DVDs, let alone any next gen format. He had a mini in his shopping cart last I checked :)

nightfly13

01-11-07, 02:38 PM

Show me another product less than $300 with a 40GB HDD and the ability to stream and store video from my Windows PC. Please, show me as this looks to be the best option for me to media serve a dvd collection converted to MPEG-4. If there is another one like the Apple that does DIVX I'll convert my dvd's to divx. I found some options that are more expensive but not $299 or less......

In the spirit of helping, not trying to be argumentitive, I've got a MG-35 (check newegg) with a 400gb hard drive in it. Under $250 shipped for the pair, and it plays divx and streams from windows PCs. The problem is I'm a Mac user and hate having to boot over to Windows to update the thing (because of fat32/ntsf limitations). TVisto might be better, not sure. Big problem with both of these for me is that I can't update from network (must attach via usb) but it can stream from 'windows shares' for what that's worth (not much to me).

On another note, back to AppleTV, if the thing's a streamer, then what's with the 40gb hard drive? I was theorizing that maybe it's just for (forthcoming) HD titles that don't stream properly. SD/Audio can stream with ease, even without fancy N wireless.

And why the $%&^ isn't the new $180 Airport equipped with Gigabit? $500 minis have Gigibit ethernet, insane.

almostinsane

01-11-07, 02:38 PM

tji

01-11-07, 02:40 PM

That's exactly what the box is. It plays ONLY what is in your iTunes library. Doesn't play from a share, xvid/divx content, EyeTV recorded files, DVD's/HD-DVD's, or SVCD's.

The notable exception to this is the iPhoto integration. I wonder if there will be a Windows app to allow photo display, or if this will be Mac only.

Don't try to make this out to be some break through product for the living room. There are plenty of products out in the market that do more for the same price or less.

The iTunes DRM support makes this a game changer for many people. This will be a good product for those that stay nicely within the boundaries of what Apple provides. This is not the case for most of us here.

The closest to an ideal media player I have seen is the Roku HD1000, Linux based and allowing anyone to develop software to extend it. But, it did poorly in the market, and was discontinued a couple years ago.

For those of us here with exotic needs, the solution has been available for a long time.. the Mac Mini can do everything the AppleTV can, plus plenty more. So, I'll be sticking with the Mini for my needs, and buying an AppleTV for my parents and their simpler needs.

telemike

01-11-07, 02:51 PM

[QUOTE=nightfly13]In the spirit of helping, not trying to be argumentitive, I've got a MG-35 (check newegg) with a 400gb hard drive in it. Under $250 shipped for the pair, and it plays divx and streams from windows PCs. The problem is I'm a Mac user and hate having to boot over to Windows to update the thing (because of fat32/ntsf limitations). TVisto might be better, not sure.

On another note, back to AppleTV, if the thing's a streamer, then what's with the 40gb hard drive? I was theorizing that maybe it's just for (forthcoming) HD titles that don't stream properly. SD/Audio can stream with ease, even without fancy N wireless.
QUOTE]

MG-35 out of stock at newegg.

The 40GB HDD lets you pre-stream stuff to the box for viewing without having to stream it wirelessly in real time. I like that feature. I don't care about DVD playback from my PC as I have a dvd player connected to the tv. My PC is another part of the house so streaming video files from itunes works for me.

I looked at the D-LINK media streamer but it has no HDD to pre-stream files.

chefklc

01-11-07, 03:02 PM

What is this, dumb down the forum day?

The question isn't:

Which products do more for less?

far more interesting to discuss:

1) Should we have expected more from this device, and of Apple?

2) Is this device at $299 a better value--in the near and long terms--than other options, especially the core duo mini at $599?

this looks to be the best option for me to media serve a dvd collection converted to MPEG-4

You might be right if you have a limited budget at the moment, don't already have a big HDTV, don't record high def or don't plan to anytime soon, don't mind wasting time decreasing the quality of your dvd collection, don't care about AC-3 or DTS because you don't have a real stereo and don't have the ability to run Cat5e up to your display. If that applies, as they say, be happy with your new purchase. But if one is reasonably computer savvy, why overlook an older mini, which now can be had fairly cheaply, often for less than $299?

And if very few of those conditions apply, then that $300 should go toward a core duo mini.

ftaok

01-11-07, 03:04 PM

The notable exception to this is the iPhoto integration. I wonder if there will be a Windows app to allow photo display, or if this will be Mac only.

I believe that the iPods with photo ability can sync to iPhoto (Mac) and with Picasa (Windows). So I'd bet that AppleTV can sync with Picasa for PC/Win users.

ft

Doug_Eldred

01-11-07, 03:06 PM

Re "dumb down day": The post immediately previous to my question that bothers you claimed that "plenty of products" do more for less or same price... I just asked for details.

If Newegg is right, the MG-35 doesn't do H.264, which will matter to some and not others.

wildrock

01-11-07, 03:10 PM

it plays divx and streams from windows PCsBut will it stream Fairplay? There's always a gotcha.

On another note, back to AppleTV, if the thing's a streamer, then what's with the 40gb hard drive?Big buffer. Maybe for future unknown reasons (RSS auto-feeds???) And for anything more, I'm sure when the putty knives come out, if it's a 3 1/2" drive, it'll get swapped out real fast. If it's 2 1/2", the eSATA mods will be hacked in.

ChrisL01

01-11-07, 03:10 PM

The 40GB HDD lets you pre-stream stuff to the box for viewing without having to stream it wirelessly in real time. I like that feature. I don't care about DVD playback from my PC as I have a dvd player connected to the tv. My PC is another part of the house so streaming video files from itunes works for me.

I looked at the D-LINK media streamer but it has no HDD to pre-stream files.

Just wondering, have you ever used a streaming device that doesn't cache to a hard drive? I have, and using either 100Mbs or 802.11g it takes less than 1 second to start the content and it never has to stop to buffer. Content used is 6-8Mbps MPEG-2.

Chris

tji

01-11-07, 03:11 PM

I believe that the iPods with photo ability can sync to iPhoto (Mac) and with Picasa (Windows). So I'd bet that AppleTV can sync with Picasa for PC/Win users.

Yes, the iPhoto library is synced to my Video/Photo iPod.

But, I didn't know you could do that with Picasa on the Windows side.. Can anyone confirm this, or post a link to instructions? This would be helpful to some poor backwards Windows using family members of mine. :)

imlucid

01-11-07, 03:12 PM

The 40GB drive is for syncing content like an iPod. This is particularly useful if you have a less than stellar wireless connection (say b or g with interference).

Photo syncing behaves like iTunes on windows does today with iPods.

tji

01-11-07, 03:17 PM

almostinsane

01-11-07, 03:18 PM

Doug_Eldred

01-11-07, 03:19 PM

The hard drive is also good for people who don't want to have the streaming source up 24/7. Sync what you want to watch/listen to for a while, watch it from the HD while the "source" computer is asleep or powered down or elsewhere (e.g. notebook at work).

imlucid

01-11-07, 03:20 PM

Right, if you have your content on your laptop which you take to work, the Apple TV can still have its local synced copy on it. When you return home (perhaps you downloaded new shows at work on your fast connection), it syncs up with the Apple TV and voila, you can watch them on the TV.

Doug_Eldred

01-11-07, 03:20 PM

That would make sense but the Apple TV only has N, no B or G.
I don't think that's correct. From the Apple Store "what you need" page:

AirPort Extreme, Wi-Fi 802.11b/g/n wireless network (video streaming requires 802.11g/n)

Or of course wired Ethernet.

Doug

imlucid

01-11-07, 03:21 PM

That would make sense but the Apple TV only has N, no B or G.
Incorrect. The Apple TV has b, g, and n.

ChrisL01

01-11-07, 03:21 PM

That would make sense but the Apple TV only has N, no B or G.

It's actually got b/g/n. Video "requires 802.11g/n".

Chris

imlucid

01-11-07, 03:22 PM

Doug and I are tripping over each other in our replies :D

tji

01-11-07, 03:22 PM

Oops, Kevin beat me to it on the Hard Drive + Synching response..

Kevin, can you confirm/deny some of the other issues brought up here? Such as lack of any MPEG2 support?

I've also seen rumors of the USB port supporting Hard Drive sharing, and the Wifi-N supporting access point functionality (like the Airport Express) when on a wired network. Can you tell us anything about that?

By the way -- Nice job on this. Obviously the AVSForum crowd will never be satisfied with many mass market products... but this is a great step forward for Mac HTPC options.

wildrock

01-11-07, 03:25 PM

That would make sense but the Apple TV only has N, no B or G.N spec is backwards compatible with g and b.

imlucid

01-11-07, 03:27 PM

Kevin, can you confirm/deny some of the other issues brought up here? Such as lack of any MPEG2 support?
The specs only say MPEG-4 and H.264...

I've also seen rumors of the USB port supporting Hard Drive sharing, and the Wifi-N supporting access point functionality (like the Airport Express) when on a wired network. Can you tell us anything about that?
These are not listed as features.

Doug_Eldred

01-11-07, 03:29 PM

The reference to a USB disk might be to the new -n AirPort Extreme, which provides a disk sharing feature, supports multiple printers, etc.

ChrisL01

01-11-07, 03:31 PM

wildrock

01-11-07, 03:31 PM

We need to remember that the base Mac, in the appleTV scenario, being hooked up to say an N wireless, can be configured to stream to several different displays/appleTVs. So you need to avoid congestion, which will rapidly happen if several people try to watch different HD programs simultaneously (or run P2P on a laptop, or download a video over wireless). So the WiFi link's bandwidth becomes the weak point in a multiple client topography. One way to combat that is to provide adequate buffering, and syncing. The 40GB HD is a very cheap buffer at this point. Where's WiMax when you need it?

wildrock

01-11-07, 03:43 PM

Not sure if it has been posted in this thread, Ars Technica (http://arstechnica.com/journals/apple.ars/2007/1/9/6543) has a good rundown of MPEG-2, USB, etc.

ChrisWell, what that article illustrates is that it is much easier for Apple to tell its employees to relate the appleTV features, in an unreleased state, to the iPod. This reduces confusion on all parts, as the iPod is understood, and it makes communications about a product that isn't in hand much easier. While it may turn out to be that this is the case, it doesn't necessarily have to be. It doesn't make sense for the appleTV's feature set to be limited to the iPod, a device that bears little resemblance to the appleTV. The only similarity would be using iTunes to sync it. But the kind, and how you deal with the content for the appleTV is distinctly different--going to a HD display, with completely different needs.

I'd look to a product launch around the first of February to roll out the appleTV that will flesh out all of the details. And if the features are on par with the iPod, then you will hear a lot of groans and people will walk away. But for many, it won't matter, and that's who Apple is selling the first incarnation of this box to (did I say first--maybe we should drive the feature set of the 2G appleTV).

ftaok

01-11-07, 03:50 PM

Yes, the iPhoto library is synced to my Video/Photo iPod.

But, I didn't know you could do that with Picasa on the Windows side.. Can anyone confirm this, or post a link to instructions? This would be helpful to some poor backwards Windows using family members of mine. :)
Oops, my mistake. It doesn't sync via Picasa. It's Photoshop Album or Photoshop Elements.

However, Apple's latest tech specs make it seem like it uses iTunes to sync photos.

Link (http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=304677#2)

ft

Doug_Eldred

01-11-07, 04:06 PM

If Picasa keeps its photos in a pictures-only folder (hierarchy?), or can easily export to a folder (hierarchy?), you can sync a folder (hierarchy?) or My Pictures or the Adobe apps mentioned to an iPod on Windows.

Further

01-11-07, 04:18 PM

If Newegg is right, the MG-35 doesn't do H.264, which will matter to some and not others.

Not only that, but according to Newegg, it doesn't include a hard disk either (you have to add it yourself). And according to the user reviews at Newegg, it's no fun to set up and several people complained about the UI. But, aside from that, it may do more than Apple TV, but it certainly isn't cheaper when you factor in the hard drive.

Doug_Eldred

01-11-07, 04:28 PM

On the 40GB HDD.. Check out the AppleTV www site, it talks about "Sync with iTunes", rather than "Stream from your PC". I bet it will sync the music/playlists, photo albums, and videos of your choice (much like you choose which content to sync with an iPod with less storage than your library). So, your desktop PC will not necessarily need to be on for your AppleTV to work.

This is one area that might improve on my Mac Mini HTPC. It can sometimes be difficult to display remotely shared content.. It works most of the time, but I've had more than my share of hiccups with this.
To be clear, at least from the keynote it does both. You can choose to sync to the HD, or you can choose to stream "live". Which is better for a given person/setup/household will depend on lots of things - how many PCs/Macs, always-on "media server" or not, Wi-Fi or other network bandwidth, total size of media, etc.

I rarely have my upstairs Power Mac up when I'm not actually using it, and I don't plan to do so, so for me a Mini was the right solution. With "only" 40 GB I could store my stuff on the Apple TV disk, but it would be tight. So, the Apple TV is probably a great solution for its intended consumer target audience, but not for everyone, nor does it try to be.

kenliles

01-11-07, 06:16 PM

Doug-
Another way to go is to use the new APE witha USB drive shared to the ATV device... That would avoid your PowerMac and solve the disk space issue, as well as avoid the need for the Mini...

ken

nightfly13

01-11-07, 10:13 PM

As a Mac User I'm by no means in love with my MG-35, and you're right it doesn't do H.264 or FairPlay, but it is a helluva lot cheaper. Like I said earlier I have one with a 400gb HDD inside (10x AppleTV) and it was $250 total - drive plus enclosure. To me we have two different products with two audiences - those who pay iTMS for all their content (and need H.264 playback, fairplay and don't need divx support) and a divx player/streamer for the Bitttorrent crowd (typo intented - I think AVS may have a filter). I don't buy from the iTMS, but if they sold 720p flicks for reasonable prices then I'd be pretty interested - guess I'd have to watch it over DVI-HDMI from one of my two Mac Intel portables, worth while to me.

For my friend who got all excited about AppleTV until I talked him out of it, once he remembered that the Mini has an optical drive that tipped the balance. He was saying he'd be willing to transcode his 1-2,000 divx files into mp4, I told him he's nuts. I don't know maybe a dedicated thread, I don't know if I'm getting off topic here or what.... pretty broad topic :)

DplphinGirl

01-14-07, 10:32 AM

Any indication that AppleTV will be able to send content from my HD Tivo to my Mac?

JerryNY

01-14-07, 11:10 AM

The AppleTV is designed more to receive stuff from your Mac but I don't think it will be able send anything to your Tivo. For that you are gonna need Tivo to go, I think they just announced that the new Toast has this functionality, or some of the other tools that can be found out there.

-Jerry C.

imlucid

01-14-07, 01:56 PM

Apple TV is not any kind of server device. Its function is to get video/audio/photo content from your Mac/PC running iTunes onto your TV.

bdraw

01-14-07, 03:26 PM

Getting content on your Apple TV is just like getting it on your iPod with the added ability to stream content.

EyeTV as well as the new TiVoToGo app by roxio supports automatic conversion of content for your ipod. Using iTunes as a conduit there is no reason why you couldn't configure it to automatically sync your TiVoToGo and EyeTV programs with your Apple TV, the EXACT same way you can sync them with your iPod today.

It also wouldn't be very hard to create a inbox directory for your Apple TV where anything you drop into the directory would be grabbed by a script and converted with ffmpeg to a Apple TV supported codec and added to your iTunes Videos and thus synced to your Apple TV.

The last piece would be software like Transcode360 that would allow you to transcode any video on your mac to H.264 in real time to stream to your Apple TV. Not sure how difficult this would be assuming it is even possible.

CarlRx

01-16-07, 08:51 AM

I've already tried to output AppleTV complient 720p H.264 with not so hot results. It seemed to me the rate conversion to 24fps was the problem.

From my reading of AppleTV, the 720p requires 24fps so this is probably "native" for iTunes delivered films, it may present a problem for exported EyeTV material.

Has anyone else tried a HD 29.97fps or 60fps output to 24fps with success?

--CarlRx

chefklc

01-16-07, 10:56 AM

It's a fool's errand:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=787301

Jerry saved us a lot of time:

"I have a 3.0 GHz Mac Pro and my brother needed some episodes of Lost. I decided to save some space and take the original TS's which are 720p and convert into 720p H.264. The Mac Pro was using near 400% of available CPU the whole time, that means all four cores maxed out, and it took 3.5 hours an episode. I tried an episode on my 1.66 core duo mini and it took about 13 hours to do an episode. Transcoding may be an option but it won't be too pretty an option if you have lots of files to convert, and these examples are not even 1080i conversions which probably would be worse"

anthonymartin

01-16-07, 06:41 PM

Encoders do get better. Perhaps in a few months, when and if this conversion gets popular, folks will code better and more optimized encoders. In the last 6 months we have seen a lot better encode speeds on the same hardware out of H.264 stuff. Perhaps the 3.5 will go to 3 hours HA!

I don't think I want to take the "fool's" route right now. 3.5 or 13 hours seems like a long time.
If a "fool" has access to a bunch of systems, perhaps VisualHub and Xgrid might help.

Right now it seems that the conversion is rough. Does anyone know where we could download a small TS clip to play with?