Alright, I'm willing to try something else new here. I am the guy with the Pioneer Elite VSX-74VXTI having the troubles passing an 1080p HDMI signal from my PS3 through the reciever. I want to pass HDMI audio (multichannel PCM) to the reciever, but it can only accept the audio when coupled with no video or with video in 480i/p, 720p or 1080i format. Would it be possible to do this...

Combine this splitter...

http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=101&cp_id=10113&cs_id=1011303&p_id=2522&seq=1&format=2&style=

...with an affordable scaler that can change the 1080p to 1080i (by affordable, I mean somewhere in the neighborhood of $500 or less, visual quality isn't a big issue)? This way, from the PS3 I would send the 1080p HDMI audio/video signal to the Monoprice splitter. One HDMI cable goes directly to my 1080p display, while the other goes to a scaler, changes the signal to 1080i, and finally to the reciever where the audio portion is processed.

Any input on this? Is it even possible? If it is possible, could someone reccomend a processor that doesn't break the bank? Thank you so much!

Defintely an unusual use of a scaler. The whole point of the scaler is to deal with the video but you only want it to output 1080i so your receiver will process the audio. How about getting a new receiver that can handle 1080P(I know the Denon 3806/2807 does)or just send 1080i from the PS3 for now.

Defintely an unusual use of a scaler. The whole point of the scaler is to deal with the video but you only want it to output 1080i so your receiver will process the audio. How about getting a new receiver that can handle 1080P(I know the Denon 3806/2807 does)or just send 1080i from the PS3 for now.

Yes, I understand it is unconventional to get a scaler for this reason. However, I LOVE the receiver I have now. The Pioneer VSX-74TXVI handles everything beautifully with the exception of the HDMI issue. As it stands right now, I have the PS3 set on 1080i and running both audio and video through the receiver to my Westinghouse 1080p LCD. Listening to Blu-Ray soundtracks encoded in 5.1 PCM are stunning, and the picture quality is very good also. However, I feel I should be able to take advantage of true 1080p output AND 5.1 PCM. After spending about a grand on the receiver less than a year ago, I really don't want to go out and find another one just for that reason.

Would this scaler do the trick???

http://www.gefen.com/kvm/product.jsp?prod_id=4174#buy

It looks nice but I don't know if it has a selectable 1080i output through HDMI. Thanks for the help, everyone!

Why you don't send a 1080i signal to the receiver, since you have a 1080p LCD the only difference is that your LCD would take care of deinterlacing to 1080P

Or why you don't connect PS3 directly to the TV and use the PS3 toslink for audio.

I must be missing something, scaler are (very) expensive and you don't need one.

Why you don't send a 1080i signal to the receiver, since you have a 1080p LCD the only difference is that your LCD would take care of deinterlacing to 1080P

Or why you don't connect PS3 directly to the TV and use the PS3 toslink for audio.

I must be missing something, scaler are (very) expensive and you don't need one.

TOSLINK doesn't carry enough bandwith for the higher end audio formats (PCM, DTS-HD Master Audio, Dolby TrueHD). They must be output over HDMI.

For the time being NO receiver can decode the new HD audio format, True-HD - Master Audio will be handled by new A/V receiver supporting HDMI 1.3, so even if you have a True-HD soundtrack it will be limited to 1.5Mbps, if you want to benefit from those new format you will need to upgrade your receiver.

For the time being NO receiver can decode the new HD audio format, True-HD - Master Audio will be handled by new A/V receiver supporting HDMI 1.3, so even if you have a True-HD soundtrack it will be limited to 1.5Mbps, if you want to benefit from those new format you will need to upgrade your receiver.

You are correct. However, the Playstation 3 already internally decodes Dolby TrueHD and outputs the decoded track as multichannel PCM via HDMI, which is 1.1 compliant. In March, Sony will issue a firmware update to allow the PS3 to decode DTS-HD Master Audio and pass the signal as multichannel PCM via HDMI.

Combine this splitter...

http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=101&cp_id=10113&cs_id=1011303&p_id=2522&seq=1&format=2&style=

pulsation,

The above splitter is not HDCP compliant. This would be your first roadblock even before you could get a scaler.

You would need a compliant HDCP splitter to pass the PS3's complete 1080P HDMI signal with HDCP, to handshake with the Pioneer Elite VSX-74VXTI. The second HDMI/HDCP signal going to an "affordable scaler that could change the 1080p to 1080i for the receiver" would also need the HDCP handshake.

i.e. Neither the Pioneer Elite nor the scaler would accept a valid HDMI/HDCP signal without an initial HDCP handshake.

Paul

pulsation,

The above splitter is not HDCP compliant. This would be your first roadblock even before you could get a scaler.

You would need a compliant HDCP splitter to pass the PS3's complete 1080P HDMI signal with HDCP, to handshake with the Pioneer Elite VSX-74VXTI. The second HDMI/HDCP signal going to an "affordable scaler that could change the 1080p to 1080i for the receiver" would also need the HDCP handshake.

i.e. Neither the Pioneer Elite nor the scaler would accept a valid HDMI/HDCP signal without an initial HDCP handshake.

Paul

That makes no sense to me...why would they make an HDMI splitter that doesn't support HDCP nowadays??? I can't think of ANY source that outputs through HDMI that ISN'T HDCP-compliant. Oh, well...I am going to talk to Gefen tomorrow and see if that Home Theater Scaler Plus will do the trick...

That makes no sense to me...why would they make an HDMI splitter that doesn't support HDCP nowadays??? I can't think of ANY source that outputs through HDMI that ISN'T HDCP-compliant. Oh, well...I am going to talk to Gefen tomorrow and see if that Home Theater Scaler Plus will do the trick...
pulsation,

Just read the "Customer Reviews" (http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=101&cp_id=10113&cs_id=1011303&p_id=2522&style=&seq=1&format=4#feedback) from the page you linked from Monoprice.com's Video/Audio Splitter, in your first post. These customers have bought the product and are disappointed that it was NOT HDCP compliant.

From the customer reviews:This item definately DOES NOT work for the purpose it is sold for !!! Why does this company sell crap that doesn''t work ???

If the splitter was HDCP compliant, don't you think the company would have advertised it and put the information in the product specifications?

Paul

pulsation,

Just read the "Customer Reviews" (http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=101&cp_id=10113&cs_id=1011303&p_id=2522&style=&seq=1&format=4#feedback) from the page you linked from Monoprice.com's Video/Audio Splitter, in your first post. These customers have bought the product and are disappointed that it was NOT HDCP compliant.

From the customer reviews:

If the splitter was HDCP compliant, don't you think the company would have advertised it and put the information in the product specifications?

Paul

I don't doubt that you are right...it just seems silly that any HDMI product would not support HDCP...I guess I would have to get one of Monoprice's 1X2 powered splitters instead and link that to a scaler...

I don't doubt that you are right...it just seems silly that any HDMI product would not support HDCP...I guess I would have to get one of Monoprice's 1X2 powered splitters instead and link that to a scaler...
Make sure it's HDCP compliant. ;)

Paul

That makes no sense to me...why would they make an HDMI splitter that doesn't support HDCP nowadays???
Because the splitter costs $14 and therefore obviously has no electronics in it. And, therefore, by the nature of the fact that HDCP requires 2-way communication, it could not possibly support HDCP.

Note that switchers, not splitters, will work with HDCP even without containing any electronics because they are basically cables--the 2-way communication will work because it won't be disrupted by the connection to the second monitor.
I can't think of ANY source that outputs through HDMI that ISN'T HDCP-compliant.
HDCP-compliance is a characteristic of receiving devices or processing devices, not sources. But, if you mean HDMI sources that aren't encrypted with HDCP, then there are plenty. One example is computer sources (which output DVI, the same signal type as the video portion of HDMI). Another example is the output of a video processor when fed an analog source, or an SDI source. Another example is when there is a device earlier in the chain that removes the HDCP, which shouldn't happen, but a few devices have been discovered that do so.
I don't doubt that you are right...it just seems silly that any HDMI product would not support HDCP...I guess I would have to get one of Monoprice's 1X2 powered splitters instead and link that to a scaler...
No need for it to be powered to work with HDCP. :)

jeff,

What product would you recommend in my situation for splitting the HDMI, HDCP-encrypted A/V signal coming from the PS3??? I called Gefen and they said their Home Theater Scaler Plus, which comes out at the end of the month, is HDCP compliant and will take the 1080p A/V signal and downconvert it to 1080i without altering the audio portion. Now I just need a way to split the signal before it gets to the scaler. Thanks for your help and expertise.

Note that switchers, not splitters, will work with HDCP even without containing any electronics because they are basically cables--the 2-way communication will work because it won't be disrupted by the connection to the second monitor.

I guess I would have to get one of Monoprice's 1X2 powered splitters instead and link that to a scaler...


No need for it to be powered to work with HDCP. :)
:confused: Caution would be strongly advised here.
Even though the "Monoprice 1X2 powered splitter" is powered, it may not by design be a switcher, and would not necessarily fall under the catagory of being "basically cables" for 2-way communication with HDCP.

Paul

:confused: Caution would be strongly advised here.
Even though the "Monoprice 1X2 powered splitter" is powered, it may not by design be a switcher, and would not necessarily fall under the catagory of being "basically cables" for 2-way communication with HDCP.

Paul
Good point. I was thinking of Monoprice's mechanical switcher, costing $29.

jeff,

What product would you recommend in my situation for splitting the HDMI, HDCP-encrypted A/V signal coming from the PS3??? I called Gefen and they said their Home Theater Scaler Plus, which comes out at the end of the month, is HDCP compliant and will take the 1080p A/V signal and downconvert it to 1080i without altering the audio portion. Now I just need a way to split the signal before it gets to the scaler. Thanks for your help and expertise.
Ok, I re-read the original question now. It seems like it would be possible to mechanically separate the video pins of HDMI from the audio pins. The big question is, does the HDCP encryption include the audio pins? If so, then there's trouble. But if not, then a simple pin splitter would do the trick. Such a product would visually look like the Monoprice splitter, but the audio pins in the video out would be dead and the video pins in the audio out would be dead. Thus, no single pin would be split.

The fact that HDCP is possible over DVI connectors suggests this splitting is possible. But, there's also the possibility that the audio is included in the encryption when it's over an HDMI cable. I'm not sure.

I have found pinouts for HDMI online (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hdmi) but unfortunately it's hard to tell.

If such an audio/video splitter doesn't exist, then perhaps it's possible to find a creative combination of adapters to do the same thing? Like, use Monoprice's splitter, then run the "video" half through a DVI cable, and find an adapter that converts HDMI to some type of other cable type to carry the audio? I'm not sure whether something like this has any chance of working.

If HDCP does include the audio, then you'd need to a find a powered splitter, which is HDCP-compliant, that separates the audio and video.

If that's not possible, then personally, I'd upgrade the amp to get 1080p rather than compromise. I'm not sure you'll find an HDCP-compliant splitter that outputs two full signals (audio and video) simultaneously because I'm not sure such product follows the HDCP license.

Finally, you could hunt down one of those HDMI "switchers" which actually has the side effect of removing HDCP. :) Then use the mechanical Monoprice splitter which should now work.

I think I am going to go with both of these:

Gefen 1:2 HDMI HDCP compliant Splitter

http://www.gefen.com/kvm/product.jsp?prod_id=2514

Gefen Home Theater Scaler

http://www.gefen.com/kvm/product.jsp?prod_id=4174

The PS3 will output a 1080p audio/video signal directly to the 1:2 Splitter. From the splitter, one HDMI out will go directly to my Westinghouse LVM-37w1 1080p LCD. The other HDMI out from the splitter will go to the Home Theater Scaler. The Scaler will change the 1080p video to 1080i video without changing the audio signal, according to Gefen. The 1080i signal will be passed via HDMI to my Pioneer Elite VSX-74TXVI receiver, where the multichannel PCM audio will be processed.

Does anyone see any potential problems with this setup? Expensive, sure, but it would be less costly than upgrading my Pioneer, which I've had less than a year and invested more than a grand already. Thanks.

The PS3 will output a 1080p audio/video signal directly to the 1:2 Splitter. From the splitter, one HDMI out will go directly to my Westinghouse LVM-37w1 1080p LCD. The other HDMI out from the splitter will go to the Home Theater Scaler. The Scaler will change the 1080p video to 1080i video without changing the audio signal, according to Gefen. The 1080i signal will be passed via HDMI to my Pioneer Elite VSX-74TXVI receiver, where the multichannel PCM audio will be processed.
Seems like it ought to work. My intuition tells me there's got to be a better (cheaper) way to separate it, but I can't pin down what it would be.

Is there a chance that the receiver will process the audio when it's 1080p, but just can't pass-through the video? Then you would only need the splitter, not the scaler. Well, you've probably tried that already. :)

Seems like it ought to work. My intuition tells me there's got to be a better (cheaper) way to separate it, but I can't pin down what it would be.

Is there a chance that the receiver will process the audio when it's 1080p, but just can't pass-through the video? Then you would only need the splitter, not the scaler. Well, you've probably tried that already. :)

I have tried it...for some reason the 1080p signal throws a loop into everything, nothing gets recognized at all by the receiver. As far as cheaper goes, I can't seem to find any HDCP compliant splitters that are any cheaper than the Gefen one...that seems to be the big expense considering what little it does.

I have tried it...for some reason the 1080p signal throws a loop into everything, nothing gets recognized at all by the receiver. As far as cheaper goes, I can't seem to find any HDCP compliant splitters that are any cheaper than the Gefen one...that seems to be the big expense considering what little it does.

The conversion to/from 1080i60 to/from 1080p60 if the source is 1080p24 is lossless and kind of easy (inverted telecine). Isn't the PS3 source 1080p24?
So why not send 1080i from the PS3 to the splitter and from the splitter 1080i to the receiver without any processing AND 1080i to the display? The display might be more than adequate to convert 1080i to 1080p. If not, it seems to me that a processor would fit better doing the deinterlacing instead of the display than interlacing the signal to the receiver. Just my 2 cents...

The conversion to/from 1080i60 to/from 1080p60 if the source is 1080p24 is lossless and kind of easy (inverted telecine). Isn't the PS3 source 1080p24?
So why not send 1080i from the PS3 to the splitter and from the splitter 1080i to the receiver without any processing AND 1080i to the display? The display might be more than adequate to convert 1080i to 1080p. If not, it seems to me that a processor would fit better doing the deinterlacing instead of the display than interlacing the signal to the receiver. Just my 2 cents...

I could do that...what I am currently doing right now is setting the PS3 on 1080i with multichannel PCM through the PS3's HDMI port. The HDMI passes through the receiver to the TV, where the TV receives 1080i. I guess the LCD does its own deinterlacing to change the image to 1080p, but is this really 1080p in the "true" sense? I would rather feed a native 1080p signal to the tv rather than have the tv deinterlace to 1080p.

The conversion to/from 1080i60 to/from 1080p60 if the source is 1080p24 is lossless and kind of easy (inverted telecine). Isn't the PS3 source 1080p24?
So why not send 1080i from the PS3 to the splitter and from the splitter 1080i to the receiver without any processing AND 1080i to the display? The display might be more than adequate to convert 1080i to 1080p. If not, it seems to me that a processor would fit better doing the deinterlacing instead of the display than interlacing the signal to the receiver. Just my 2 cents...
PS3 games can be full 1080p60. Blu-Ray movies would be 1080p24 or 1080p30.

I think using a splitter, and then a 1080p->1080i converter to the receiver is the right idea, if a standalone A/V separator cannot be found or the receiver won't be replaced. That way, a perfect video gets sent to the TV.

Removing the 1080p->1080i converter in the audio chain and removing the splitter, and instead using a 1080i->1080p processor is not only much more expensive, but it's worse also for 1080p game content, because video data is being lost.

However, the 1080i->1080p processor setup might be better for Blu-Ray disc content. (Does the PS3 have 1080p output for BD directly from the 24p on disc?)

PS3 games can be full 1080p60. Blu-Ray movies would be 1080p24 or 1080p30.

I think using a splitter, and then a 1080p->1080i converter to the receiver is the right idea, if a standalone A/V separator cannot be found or the receiver won't be replaced. That way, a perfect video gets sent to the TV.

Removing the 1080p->1080i converter in the audio chain and removing the splitter, and instead using a 1080i->1080p processor is not only much more expensive, but it's worse also for 1080p game content, because video data is being lost.

However, the 1080i->1080p processor setup might be better for Blu-Ray disc content. (Does the PS3 have 1080p output for BD directly from the 24p on disc?)

As of right now, the PS3 outputs everything at 1080p60. 24fps support will come later through a firmware update. How many 1080p monitors support 24fps though??? Would mine even be able to display 1080p24?

As of right now, the PS3 outputs everything at 1080p60. 24fps support will come later through a firmware update. How many 1080p monitors support 24fps though??? Would mine even be able to display 1080p24?
I didn't mean 24p output, but decoding. I was just trying to get a handle on the PS3's deinterlacer, to see whether it would be better/worse than a video processor. For example, one of the early-gen BD players had a Genesis deinterlacing chip that failed to enter film mode on high-detail scenes. But if the PS3 decodes 24p off the disc (even if it converts that to 60p) that would be superior, for film-originated content. I was just kind of assuming that the PS3 doesn't have a cadence-based deinterlacer (which in some cases would be better than 24p decoding).

I didn't mean 24p output, but decoding. I was just trying to get a handle on the PS3's deinterlacer, to see whether it would be better/worse than a video processor. For example, one of the early-gen BD players had a Genesis deinterlacing chip that failed to enter film mode on high-detail scenes. But if the PS3 decodes 24p off the disc (even if it converts that to 60p) that would be superior, for film-originated content. I was just kind of assuming that the PS3 doesn't have a cadence-based deinterlacer (which in some cases would be better than 24p decoding).

I don't know how the PS3 processes the video. HDDVD players and other BR players that use the Broadcom decoder chip always perform 1080p24 to 1080i60 from film sources. HDDVD players then output 1080i60 to the displays. BR players convert 1080i60 to 1080p60 before output to the displays. These conversions are lossless, just repetition of existing or suppression of repeated information depending on cadence. Theoretically the conversion on the display should be identically easy and clean (1080i60 to 1080p60) if the panels on the display are 1080p60 native. Most LCDs are not, so a downscaling to 720p or 768p need to performed by the processor on the display. This last step is the one that may cause trouble. It is not the case here since it is 1080p60 native.

The current HD players don't allow 1080p24 to be output directly so even if the display could have 1080p24 native resolution some number of conversions are necessary anyway by the display or by an external processor. Again I don't know about the PS3 on this issue.

I could do that...what I am currently doing right now is setting the PS3 on 1080i with multichannel PCM through the PS3's HDMI port. The HDMI passes through the receiver to the TV, where the TV receives 1080i. I guess the LCD does its own deinterlacing to change the image to 1080p, but is this really 1080p in the "true" sense? I would rather feed a native 1080p signal to the tv rather than have the tv deinterlace to 1080p.

When I suggested using a processor to improve the quality of the signal to the display on my first post I was meaning 1080i60 to 1080p60 which should not be much more expensive than the one being considered to do 1080p60 to 1080i60. I assume that it would not be necessary unless the display is really bad doing 1080i to 1080p like doing "bob" deinterlacing meaning real 540p instead of 1080p. The newer models generally are doing OK. I am not sure about the display used here. There must have info about it on specific threads refferring to that display model.

I guess that if you compare side by side the results of the current configuration with the results from the updated configuration being considered, you will get a very small improvement, if any. I would suggest a test anyway. Be sure about the return policy of the equipments you are going to buy. Worst case would be you pay for the shipping and handling only, if I am guessing right.

Good luck!

As of right now, the PS3 outputs everything at 1080p60. 24fps support will come later through a firmware update. How many 1080p monitors support 24fps though??? Would mine even be able to display 1080p24?

Is that a fact? Where did you get this information?

I think I am going to go with both of these:

Gefen 1:2 HDMI HDCP compliant Splitter

http://www.gefen.com/kvm/product.jsp?prod_id=2514

Gefen Home Theater Scaler

http://www.gefen.com/kvm/product.jsp?prod_id=4174

The PS3 will output a 1080p audio/video signal directly to the 1:2 Splitter. From the splitter, one HDMI out will go directly to my Westinghouse LVM-37w1 1080p LCD. The other HDMI out from the splitter will go to the Home Theater Scaler. The Scaler will change the 1080p video to 1080i video without changing the audio signal, according to Gefen. The 1080i signal will be passed via HDMI to my Pioneer Elite VSX-74TXVI receiver, where the multichannel PCM audio will be processed.

Does anyone see any potential problems with this setup? Expensive, sure, but it would be less costly than upgrading my Pioneer, which I've had less than a year and invested more than a grand already. Thanks.

I'd like to understand how these things can work. If you have an HDCP enabled input signal, it has to do a handshaking sequence ( repeated several times per minute as I understand it) with at least ONE of the display devices. Assuming that it does, what type of signal is passed onto the second output? Is it a copy of that sent out to the first attached display, which would mean that that signal still has HDCP content on it? Or is it a decrypted signal.

If it is a decrypted signal, the second display has no problems showing a picture.

If it is NOT, i.e it still has HDCP encryption on it, then it will want to handshake with the source, otherwise no picture!

But, how is the source going to decide which display it's going to shake hands with? Can it simultaneously hand-shake with 2 displays?

It's not clear at all from the Gefen Splitter info exactly what is going on. Anyone got any ideas?

If it is a decrypted signal, the second display has no problems showing a picture.

If it is NOT, i.e it still has HDCP encryption on it, then it will want to handshake with the source, otherwise no picture!

But, how is the source going to decide which display it's going to shake hands with? Can it simultaneously hand-shake with 2 displays?

It's not clear at all from the Gefen Splitter info exactly what is going on. Anyone got any ideas?
You're right, a dumb splitter that is just a Y-split of the pins in the cable cannot work if there is HDCP, for the reasons you state.

But an active splitter that supports HDCP handshakes with the source, and then individually handshakes with each of the destinations. Each output has its own unique HDCP handshake.

As far as the source is concerned, the switcher is the monitor. As far as each monitor is concerned, the switcher is the source.

i need to resurrect this thread. i have run into the same problem as the OP. what ever happened with your setup? did you end up just buying a new receiver?

for the time being, i am planning to sacrifice my audio, and get my 1080p24 on my brand new samsung 4069. if the set was 1080p but not 120hz, i would have stuck with lossless audio, especially since my tv is only 40". but since 120hz (and video games with AMP) along with 5:5 pulldown is one of the main reasons i bought this tv, i plan on maximizing my video experience to its full potential ;)

i am a college student, and back in september when i bought this hdmi 1.1 hk 745, i didn't think i would be buying a tv anytime soon. but the 4069 looked too good to pass up. i failed to see, when buying the tv, that it would push me towards getting a new receiver as well. i'm so broke :(