Seems like there are a lot of quite knowledgeable folks here.

I keep wondering how many have made (or at least...tried to make) this hobby into a full-time (or part time) profession? :)

I see some firms installing home-theaters. Did anyone start here and sort of "went up the ladder"?

I would LOVE to make this sort of thing a profession but I lack almost all skills necessary to be remotely qualified :)

I think fiddling with all aspect of home theater is fun as all hell and would really enjoy it. I would have no idea how to start in the industry or get the training I need but it would be my dream job :)

I get "roped" in to helping others that want to build a room similar to mine. I know there is not a chance in this world I would be able to make what I am making at my current job though. There is a lot of things I do for free and this is just one of them. I do not mind helping others out when i have time and it is good to see a finished product. Sales of a room design and complete transformation would be just too few and far between for my area..

I think this can be done. And I think you will find that lots of the professionals started out as enthusiasts, though perhaps not all.

One thing to be aware of is that lots of the professionals who peruse these boards have one or two particular areas where their passion really lies. This passion might be room acoustics, audio gear, video systems, or whole house system installation.

But because it's a job, they may find themselves offering consultation in other areas where they are not as experienced. As an A/V enthusiast, you may in fact know more about certain elements of HT system design than they do.

Ask yourself this question: Do you have a particular expertise that people would be willing to pay for?

This sort of professional will still be able to offer someone lots of help, especially if that someone is uninitiated to the world of A/V. And they will certainly be able to offer boatloads of help in their particular area of expertise to anyone who will listen.

The area of A/V that I am most qualified in is related to video, not audio. This includes video processing as well. I have helped several of my friends pick out front projection systems for their homes, including the screen, the gear, etc. I feel competent doing this, and I think the advice they are likely to get from me is as good as what they would get going to an expensive consultant.

But I don't know nearly enough about acoustic design to help in that area, although I am learning. I'm a fast learner and I know how to buy and read books, so I'm catching up. But audio is not my passion, so will never know as much about it as someone who lives and breathes it.

I think the key is to offer services that allow you to focus on the thing you love, and to learn "enough to be helpful" about the other areas where you might be asked to consult. As a methodology, that's a start. Some guys take this a step further and become experts in EVERYTHING or hire a crew of people who can handle everything from interior design to room acoustics to video processing. But those kinds of firms are at the top of the mountain and are few and far between.

I've thought about it, too. I live in a fairly small metro area and the few main players are pretty well-establish, so it would be pretty tough. I also wonder if for some of us at least, it would cease being fun anymore when it became work... i.e, not optional, not flexible, stressful, demanding, etc.

SC

Made enought money doing work for others to completely fund my theater (~$50,000) which I am just finishing up. In all three cases, I installed projectors but in multi-use rooms but also finished bedrooms, bathrooms and rec rooms. The biggest downfall of doing these remodels is that you get calls from them all asking for assistance with the electronics. Usually, it is an easy fix, but just getting over to their house to look at it is a pain in the ass.

I think you could make a living at it but you would be competing with the local electronics stores to do multi-use installs. I think to do dedicated theater rooms would be difficult unless you have great contacts with people that have unlimited budgets and a true passion for movies. Most are not as fanatical as those of us on these forums so they could care less about acoustics and detailed room design. And as we all know, it is very time consuming and therefore, would be expensive to do for someone else. If they don't care about it, they most likely won't pay for it.

BTW, I have done these remodels on the side. I actually have a real job and can't imagine making enough to replace my current salary.

Made enought money doing work for others to completely fund my theater (~$50,000) which I am just finishing up. In all three cases, I installed projectors but in multi-use rooms but also finished bedrooms, bathrooms and rec rooms. The biggest downfall of doing these remodels is that you get calls from them all asking for assistance with the electronics. Usually, it is an easy fix, but just getting over to their house to look at it is a pain in the ass.

I think you could make a living at it but you would be competing with the local electronics stores to do multi-use installs. I think to do dedicated theater rooms would be difficult unless you have great contacts with people that have unlimited budgets and a true passion for movies. Most are not as fanatical as those of us on these forums so they could care less about acoustics and detailed room design. And as we all know, it is very time consuming and therefore, would be expensive to do for someone else. If they don't care about it, they most likely won't pay for it.

BTW, I have done these remodels on the side. I actually have a real job and can't imagine making enough to replace my current salary.

What sort of business model are you using when you do work for friends, if you don't mind me asking.

Are you charging an hourly consulting rate? Are you charging extra for drawings, schematics, that sort of thing? Are you charging a "mark up" fee for procuring hardware/gear?

Just interested in what people are doing, and you seem to have made a few dollars.

What sort of business model are you using when you do work for friends, if you don't mind me asking.

Are you charging an hourly consulting rate? Are you charging extra for drawings, schematics, that sort of thing? Are you charging a "mark up" fee for procuring hardware/gear?

Just interested in what people are doing, and you seem to have made a few dollars.

I would be interested in this info as well. I help a fair # of people and have no idea what to charge.

Scott

I turned this hobby into a business, but it is not an installation business, it is a 3d visualization business:

www.renderreality.com

Not sure if that "counts".

Good thoughts guys!
I totally forgot to subscribe to my own thread and later this thread slipped off my mind!
Sorry

I turned this hobby into a business, but it is not an installation business, it is a 3d visualization business:

www.renderreality.com

Not sure if that "counts".


Sure !
This surely counts! In fact I'd be interested in knowing more about your business model, if you care to share, that is. :)

I agree with all comments here, I too have thought about the switch from hobby to a profession but I always worry if there is enough money in this.

I have talked to one installer, he told me there is little money in the small jobs so they take up only 100 thousand or so type jobs. Then I asked them how many have you done last year...the answer was a pathetic one or two. So I wonder....if this installation business will make enough dough to be able to replace a low 6 figure salary??
THAT is my concern....well for a person making around 50k....."maybe" this business may work out......but once you get used to making more.......well I just wonder.


Of course there are people who specialize...like the video display calibrators and design experts and people like reaper. But I think they may have a day time job with this as a side-business...or am I wrong?

I think the key may be to "be flexible". Offer all sorts of services PLUS be a retailer of high / middle end stuff. Then it may be feasible.

Services could range from just hanging a plasma on the wall to calibrations to design to full scale contracting of finishing a basement.

Now how does one find part time (actually on call) techs, like electricians and dry-wallers and carpenters.

I think there are many who've done this. By the same token, there are many who, once hobby became real work, lost their enthusiasm.

once hobby became real work, lost their enthusiasm.

Ditto

I'm a wanna be artist and dabble in various mediums. Once my wife committed me to do something for a relative. It became a real pain. There was no fun or pleasure involved, and the wife was always nagging me to complete it.

I get satisfaction selling my work to anyone who appreciates a piece, but I get to pick the subject and medium.

On the other hand there are some very talented artists that earn a living doing commissioned works.

You have to be of a mind that you can put your personal interests and bias aside and use your skills to best achieve your clients goals.

Rule of thumb - service industries need to charge 3x the take-home pay of those doing the work.

Average CEDIA installer make $25K, Average CEDIA designer makes $50K (rumour is that Dennis is not average....). The average CEDIA rate was $75/hr per tech - which is $150/hr for a two person crew which is often needed on the job. Often trades are licensed - electrical & painting - and you need to sub that out - which means you charge a small overhead to deal with the sub who is already overheading his take home. Higher tech skills like automation/programming and CAD/engineering, and A/V calibration can do even better than average. BestBuy charges $100/hr regardless of skill. This should give you an idea of rates you should charge.

Do the math and you find that is often not 3x the salaries (billable hours is NOT 2000 hrs/year) - therefore most CEDIA companies are not profitable as service industries - and are relying on their cut for selling gear. Consider that the chain store likely is having a plasma sale for cheaper than the integrator's wholesale price - you do the math - don't forget to subtract the cost of the fancy HT you built to show why your spendier gear is better than the gear in the dusty warehouse...

Bottom line - someone making $100K now - best to stick with the day job and hire the AV guy. Sure you could do it on the side with low or no overhead (other than the price of your free time from family - and the risk of screwing up with no insurance) - but you are killing your own dream to do it fulltime. Because if you did - you cannot charge your low/no overhead price and survive - yet you are caught competing against the guy that used to be you.

The other consideration - if the IRS decides your side gig is really a hobby - they will not hesitate to declare you owe back taxes for all those false deductions you claimed. How do you avoid being a hobby? As far as the IRS is considered - getting paid is not enough to avoid it being hobby - you need to show a profit. IRS cuts you a break - they will give you a few years coming up - but they also go back a few years as they take you down.

It is always wise to be passionate about something before one decides to pursue a professional career in that field. If making a lot of money is your primary goal in the home theater industry, then I would recommend you stick with your day job. There are only a certain number of slots at the top and not everybody can be there. This industry is extremely competitive with access to the internet and the huge audio/video HT in a box stores. If you really want to get into this industry, your best bet to stay competitive is knowledge! Take courses in acoustic theory, video display technologies, basic construction techniques, electrical and HVAC theory and a little business savoy wouldn't hurt either. After all, knowledge is power!

I suppose I have, in a smaller way. My book project does make some revenue, and I have an upcoming DVD project that will likewise produce revenue. But, as was surmised earlier in the thread, that is not a full time profession for me. It is what I happily spend each evening and weekend on.

I agree 100% with what Dennis said; losing the passion can happen very quickly once it becomes work and the pressure of dealines loom.

Last minor point, on the IRS. No business ever has to show a profit to be declared a business, only the intent to one day make a profit. Many businesses go their entire 'lives' without ever showing profit. If an owner cannot show intent to profit, then it can be declared a hobby and the tax deducation issue comes into play.

There is a safe harbor in the code if a hobby produces profit in any 3 of 5 consecutive years it will be presumed to not be a hobby unless the IRS proves otherwise. See IRC Section 183(d). Except for horse breeding which needs profit in 2 out of 7 years to make the presumption.

No PM's asking for tax advice.

I had hoped that I could have turned my enthusiasm into profit along time ago, but this is exactly like you said, a hobby. I enjoy doing it. I am afraid that trying to turn it into a career or even a side job would ruin my love for doing it.

Helping others do their roomd increases my skills and keeps me from spending my own money on unproved ideas. I like spending others money to see if it works the way I think it will. Then I can do it my own room.

The fact I do it for free keeps the burden of responsibility from me.

There is a safe harbor in the code if a hobby produces profit in any 3 of 5 consecutive years it will be presumed to not be a hobby unless the IRS proves otherwise. See IRC Section 183(d). Except for horse breeding which needs profit in 2 out of 7 years to make the presumption.

No PM's asking for tax advice.

Yes my point was about avoiding an audit and fighting the IRS and hiring a CPA/lawyer to defend you. I would rather have a root canal than try to prove to the IRS I did not intend to lose money for years on end! Charging a professional rate rather than loosing money and wasting your time (the very definition of a hobby!) is one way to prove a side biz is not a hobby. The IRS does not want to subsidize your hobby with tax deductions - so many times I see AVSers say I just want to do this on the side to be able to expense HT gear that I bought with my day job for me to enjoy - and that will surely get you into a IRS hobby audit. The biggest mistake I see is not getting biz insurance - even a calibrator that touches nothing but the remote can make the mistake of stepping on a kids favorite toy not realizing their dad can afford calibration service because he is a lawsuit hungry lawyer...

Doing it for free does not absolve you of that responsibility - you will find very quickly what it means to be no longer be considered their friendly helper when you go in front of Judge Judy (I miss Judge Wapner!)

The fact I do it for free keeps the burden of responsibility from me.


I have helped others and did the "Doing it for free " thing but I have noticed that the liability is still on myself, paid work or not.

Now I have a long story about how I "helped" a friend change his BMW's oil..........
Long story short...I ended up losing my friendship........

hence I am VERY wary of doing free/help/work. :mad:

I sell this stuff on a daily basis and have been doing so for a year now but this has been an ongoing hobby my entire life on top of Hardware Modification to my gaming or mobile systems. I would love to make a hell of a lot more than I do right now though and think if I found the right person it's totally doable with my experience. It's definitely a fun job and a fun hobby and something I could spend my life doing rather professionally. Sell, build, or install I'd love to do it.

I turned a hobby into a business for the first time when I was 11. I learned my lesson real quick. After 3 years I was struggling to stay motivated, but I didn't stop until college.

Years later, I enjoy it again...but not as a business.

As of right now, I have a second meeting with one of them lined up for a week from now to discuss details.... We have not discussed money yet.


You need to be prepared for the worst case.

Don't be surprised if you are offered gas money and a commission based plan. WITH NO DRAW against the commission.

If there is a good lead generation program and you are a good closer you will prosper.

If there isn't a good plan to generate leads and you can't close you will starve.

The worst of the worst case is you have to generate all your own leads from scratch and you starve while you ramp up the process.

Now if you are really good you will be able to sell them on the importance of advancing you a salary against your future commissions for a pre-determined period of time.

One last thing before jumping on board is to check the vailidity of the reference base that you will be using to sell the future jobs and whether there have been any complaints filed against the company.

Research the solvency and stability of the company and ask to meet all the key players to see if you would fit in.

Harold,
How about opening a small business of your own rather than working for someone else. Have you thought about that instead?
Maybe there is more profitability there.....I'm not sure.