Sherwood Newcastle R-872 & R-972 HDMI 1.3 receivers

[RolandOG]

Do a web search on the 965 you'll see it's a top quality receiver. I'd say historically it's sound quality is right there with the Marzntz, and NAD.


Are you saying that it's considered a 'warm' receiver? I'm very interested in the 972 but I'm unsure if it's going to be a good match with my Klipsch speakers. There isn't a SN dealer anywhere near me so I can't go and talk with someone selling them. Unfortunately, the Klipsch forum has precious little information on SN, which I take as a bad sign for that combo.

[fresno1232001]

Jeff- I am looking at the Samsung LNT-5271F TV. It is fantastic in PQ. It seems to be a red-hot seller. ~$2700 at Amazon. 1080P. Just fantastic. It comes in a black shiney case. I was staring at it at CC last Fri. night. Then i went in and stared at the Onkyo 805 receiver in black. Those would seem to look good together and I wonder if you have any plans to offer the 972 in black? I would prefer it in black, I think, but more importantly for S-N, other people might too and silver only could cost you some sales. I love your blue display and your famous quality and sound quality reputation. To have it available in black would be one more reason for me to buy the 972. How hard can it be to make that face-plate and knobs in black? Since most receivers on the market come in black, the technology to do that can't be a big secret.
Editing here- Since Samsung LCDs are now so popular, and since they only come in shiney black cases, I think their ascendancy may be a further reason for S-N to offer its receivers in black to match them- Fresno

Any new updates from our man on the inside?

[colossusiam]

This question is for Jeff or anyone who knows. I bought a R-871 and was disappointed when it didn't decode the audio from the HDMI connection on the receiver. I was wondering if there will be a firmware update for it soon to decode audio from the HDMI connection. Hopefully it will also decode the new audio formats associated with HD DVD and Blu-Ray as well. Thanks!

[gonk]

I can take a guess. The Sherwood site's description of the R-871 indicates that the HDMI inputs switch video only. The user manual would seem to confirm that, as it only addresses using HDMI for video switching. As a result, I would not expect it to be upgradeable to support audio via HDMI - either multichannel PCM or raw bitstreams of the new audio formats (although the latter case would likely not be possible even if it did support audio via HDMI, as it uses an older DSP chip that I don't believe is capable of handling those formats).

[DonoMan]

Are you saying that it's considered a 'warm' receiver?

Like any properly designed amplifier/receiver, it is neutral. The point of it is to take the input signal and multiply it by some amount, not to add or subtract things.

[RolandOG]

Like any properly designed amplifier/receiver, it is neutral. The point of it is to take the input signal and multiply it by some amount, not to add or subtract things.

Well, that's always the goal but I've yet to come across a receiver/amp that isn't either warm, slightly warm, slightly bright or bright. If the SN is truly neutral, or even slightly bright then I'm a happy man. I'm currently using a Yamaha to drive my Klipsch so clearly I can live with that type of combo, even though I'm looking to go with a neutral/warmer amp.

If it's slightly warm then I'm thrilled and the 972 is now on top of my list, ahead of the Denon 3808. After using the Yamaha all these years I've decided I no longer like the really bright amp/Klipsch combo.

Thanks for the reply.

[Robert Whitehead]

Are there any authorized SN internet dealers? There are no B&M stores in CT which carry SN, knocking it out as an option if the only authorized dealers are B&M stores.

[gonk]

The only authorized internet dealer that I've heard of is Axiom.

[crbaldwin]

The only authorized internet dealer that I've heard of is Axiom.

But for some reason they don't seem to have any of the new models (although I swear they used to sell the 672)?

[QZ1]

The only authorized internet dealer that I've heard of is Axiom.
But for some reason they don't seem to have any of the new models (although I swear they used to sell the 672)?
They did indeed.

[bigrock66]

Looks like Jeff has evaporated. I hope he comes back with good news and hopefully we won't have to wait 'til March. Denon 3808 and Onkyo 875 prices are dropping fast. If they price the 972 at $1500 and ship in March, not sure that many of us will wait...

[G-force]

Looks like I made the right choice going with the Onkyo back in August. I would not have waited until 2008.

[QZ1]

Looks like Jeff has evaporated. I hope he comes back with good news and hopefully we won't have to wait 'til March. Denon 3808 and Onkyo 875 prices are dropping fast. If they price the 972 at $1500 and ship in March, not sure that many of us will wait...
In late June, Jeff said the MSRPs of 872 & 972 would be increased.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=10912791&postcount=221

The first post of this thread should be edited by a moderator.

[bigrock66]

Well, if this is the case, the probablility of getting the Denon 3808 has greatly increased. On top of it all, the Denon has networking capabilities. One could debate that the SN's sound better but quite frankly most of us would be happy with either.

Jeff? Can you comment? Is the MSRP still gonna be $1800?

[fresno1232001]

I rarely really laugh at something I see here on my computer, but to say that a man has apparently evaporated made me laugh just now. What an image it conjures up.
Looks like Jeff has evaporated. I hope he comes back with good news and hopefully we won't have to wait 'til March. Denon 3808 and Onkyo 875 prices are dropping fast. If they price the 972 at $1500 and ship in March, not sure that many of us will wait...

[DonoMan]

It's like SN is saying, "Please don't buy our stuff."

If you had asked me 6 months ago what receiver I wanted, 972 would have been the answer.

[krholmberg]

It's like SN is saying, "Please don't buy our stuff."

If you had asked me 6 months ago what receiver I wanted, 972 would have been the answer.

+1

[Legairre]

Guys do any of you know if the R-872 will allow you to overlay PLIIx on 5.1 AND 7.1 PCM.

[krholmberg]

I can't remember... will this receiver have wifi like the Denon receivers? I've been researching other receivers d/t the delays in the 972 coming to market. The two upper Onkyos are interesting... but they seem to have lots of bugs. The Denon's seem to be well made, but their VP is old news. The 972 has tons of potential, but it's proposed asking price is steep given the discounting going on with the competition. If the 972 has wifi and properly uses the Reon chip and markets the Trinnov processor, it may still be the best choice.

S/N... PLEASE IMPLEMENT NETWORKING CAPABILITY!!!!!!!

[FreddyW]

I pulled the trigger on a 3808ci a few months ago, and have not regreted it one bit. The ability to switch HDMI is wonderful. I sold my P-965, which was a very nice piece, and my Parasound amps. Going to an all-in-one AVR caused NO loss in sound quality or performance. I have Parasound Studio/100's, so it's not like I'm running Bose cubes. And now, less space, less heat= GOOD! The multiEQ is superior to the SNAP in every respect.

The remote is just as crappy, maybe crappier, than the P-965. Granted, the P-965 had a nice PHYSICAL remote, but the commands sucked, and the autosensor never did work right (i.e.- pushed everything to Dolby EX and had to be forced back). That drove me nuts.

My only regret was that I did not go to the 4808ci, because I now have a 50" plasma behind my now-electric screen. The dual HDMI output would have been nice, but I used a HD Tivo as a second source along with Crapcast HD DVR. It's a FANTASTIC set-up. Let me know if someone wants to trade Denons and I'l throw in a few bucks as well ;)

I waited as long as I could from S-N, based on CES, and there's still no going forward. I appreciated their gear, but the delays were a dealbreaker.

I still may buckup and buy the 4808 ci ;)

[bigrock66]

Well, here it is: The R-972 WILL be released in March AND will be 1799$. But it will inlcude the Trinnov Optimizer. Maybe it will be worth the wait... No news on networking capabilities though...

So the questions remains: Wait 'til March for a receiver that will have the best room EQ or go ahead with the Denon 3808ci or the Onkyo 875... What about Rotel? Will they have a competing product by March???

[krholmberg]

I have my doubts about networking but God I hope it is included. If this AVR has a correctly used REON processor and the Trinnov Optimizer and networking capabilities, it would be well worth the full $1800 as it's feature set would take the best features of it's competitors, as well as something new and unique, and put it all in one package. If it isn't capable of networking and/or the REON processor isn't used to it's potential, then I'm affraid these units won't move. To command a premium price requires a premium product. S/N... PLEASE DELIVER US THE GOODS!!!!!

[noah katz]

"Wait 'til March for a receiver that will have the best room EQ"

Possibly true, but only an assumption.

I remember all the rave professional reviews of Audyssey, whereas when it got into consumers' hands the results were/are hit-and-miss.

[DonoMan]

I remember all the rave professional reviews of Audyssey, whereas when it got into consumers' hands the results were/are hit-and-miss.

Equalization can only do so much. Professionals are more likely to have treated rooms where equalization is much more helpful than it would be otherwise.

[facesnorth]

Onkyo recently released a firmware update for the 875/905 and the pre-pros. It corrects most of the bugs, including all of the major complaints such as color alteration. Looks like the Reon has been fully and correctly implemented at this point, at least as much as the XA2.

Not much out of Jeff lately so I have been losing my enthusiasm over the 972. I was not planning on picking up my AVR for a couple of months anyway, so there is some hope left for me. But I am rapidly deciding on the 905.

Trinnov still holds quite a bit of appeal. But the 905 has ethernet, HD radio, a massive torroidal transformer, and seperate A/V power supplies. If the 972 could add these, along with support for FLAC, and sell for under $1500 shipped (retail), like the 905 does, then I would hold out for it.

[RolandOG]

Not trying to flame but I'm not sure why a lack of input from Jeff should lessen enthusiasm for this receiver. We already know that it's a very promising piece of AV equipment.

[glennQNYC]

Not trying to flame but I'm not sure why a lack of input from Jeff should lessen enthusiasm for this receiver. We already know that it's a very promising piece of AV equipment.

I was thinking the same thing.

glennQ

[krholmberg]

Onkyo recently released a firmware update for the 875/905 and the pre-pros. It corrects most of the bugs, including all of the major complaints such as color alteration. Looks like the Reon has been fully and correctly implemented at this point, at least as much as the XA2.

Trinnov still holds quite a bit of appeal. But the 905 has ethernet, HD radio, a massive torroidal transformer, and seperate A/V power supplies. If the 972 could add these, along with support for FLAC, and sell for under $1500 shipped (retail), like the 905 does, then I would hold out for it.

That's interesting about the 905. If all the major bugs (and most of them in general) have been fixed, and the 972 includes the extras in the 905 you pointed out, then the only real distinguishing difference between the 905 and 972 is their choices in EQ. If the 972 doesn't have all of those extras, then the 972 is fighting an upghill battle. If the 972 is lacking several of those features, then I'm afraid it may be in trouble. I really like the feature set in the 972 and I've been excited about it since CES '07, but the lower cost and excellent feature set in the 905 are becoming more and more attractive.

[bigrock66]

My plan is to wait 'til April (unless I get ahead in my HT construction). If by then the SN is still 1700-1800 street, the 875, 905 and 3808 will look even more attractive... One audition at the dealer might change everything though...

[Stereojeff]

Early last week, the Sherwood Newcastle R-972 was named one of the recipients of the CES 2008 Innovations award. As part of the entry process I needed to describe why the 972 deserved the award. Please find that text below.

Jeff

The Sherwood Newcastle R-972 deserves the award for its novel user and installer- friendly features; its inclusion of the Trinnov Optimizer Room EQ; and for innovative use of the internet to enhance versatility.

With our 2.4 MHz RF remote control and internal circuitry to generate appropriate IR output, the entire system can be operated from anywhere within the home.

To enhance reliability, the R-972 contains a lockable “installer memory.” The consumer can change any operating parameters. Should the system fail to operate, power cycling the R-972 automatically re-loads the installer settings. This usually restores normal operation.

The R-972 marks the debut of Trinnov’s $13,000 stand-alone digital room-correction system inside an AVR. The Trinnov Optimizer uses an Acoustic Probe with four mic-capsules to measure speaker performance and room location in 3 dimensions, then uses advanced digital filtering techniques to compensate for acoustic defects in the speakers and their room interaction. To restore the original acoustic wave-front, the Optimizer can re-position the acoustic centers of each channel to conform with the ITU standard for surround music, raise or lower an out-of-plane channel, or even shift the entire perspective. The result is virtually perfect imaging.

Trinnov users can write stored performance data to the R-972’s USB jack, sign on to our website, load the stored data and print before-and-after graphs of their system. New target curves will be offered on the web so users can match the sound of their system to their playback material.

[QZ1]

Jeff, good to hear from you again.

Has the R-872 been released?
You had told me mid-October.
(And R-772 was for mid-Sept.)

Axiom Audio (authorized) had only the R-672, and then they pulled it.
Will they be getting the R-872 any time soon?

Are there any other authorized online dealers?

[Randybes]

Congrats Jeff-very impressive.

[Legairre]

Yes Jeff great to hear, how about the R-872? Als any info on pricing would be helpful too.

[Robert Whitehead]

Jeff-

There is no SN dealer in CT. How do I get an R-972? Still a March release? Thanks!

[BobL]

Robert,

You are about 30 miles from us in MA. I'm sure we'll be bringing one in when available.

Bob

[RolandOG]

Robert,

You are about 30 miles from us in MA. I'm sure we'll be bringing one in when available.

Bob

I'm in MA. Where are you located? Are you a custom installer or do you have a shop? I'm very interested in the 972 but have never heard a SN product in person. I'd like to do that before buying. Thanks!

[krholmberg]

Jeff... first off congrats!

S/N needs the good pub on the R-972 given it's delay. When I saw your post, I had to go back and check the date. It's interesting that the R-972 is getting the innovation award at CES '08 given it was first announced and shown at CES '07 :rolleyes:. Better late than never... and the tidbits on the Trinnov Optimizer are very exciting.

A couple quick questions:

1. Please elaborate on the internet connectivity. Will the R-972 be able to connect with ones main computer to act as a media server?

2. Will the R-972 be able to tune HD radio?

3. What will the output of the amp officially be listed?

4. Will the power supply of the audio and video be separate?

Thanks and I hope to get answers. We certainly appreciate you input on this thread. It is one of the things that sets S/N apart from the competition.

[Robert Whitehead]

BobL-

You should contact SN. When I did a 100 mile search for a dealer from my Zip Code, the only dealers were in NY; your store did not appear.

[DonoMan]

They shouldn't give awards to stuff that's not available.

[cybrsage]

They shouldn't give awards to stuff that's not available.

Agreed.

[BobL]

I'm in MA. Where are you located? Are you a custom installer or do you have a shop? I'm very interested in the 972 but have never heard a SN product in person. I'd like to do that before buying. Thanks!

We are custom installers in Feeding Hills, Ma (near Springfield if you are from the Eastern part of the state). We are fnishing up a showroom and should be done in a couple of months. If you want a demo of a piece we can certainly arrange it.

We are probably not on SN dealer list since we buy through distribution and not direct. There are a LOT of dealers that buy through distrbution. You can call local shops and see if any local dealer use SN. I'll contact Jeff and see if they will list non-direct dealers which feature their products.

Bob

[fresno1232001]

Jeff- I wish you would make everything black for me, wrt to the 972, that is. The Samsung LCDs are taking the world by storm, and they don't come in silver. I really think that fact alone should cause you all to consider a black 972.
Congrats Jeff-very impressive.

[bfdtv]

Jeff- I wish you would make everything black for me, wrt to the 972, that is. The Samsung LCDs are taking the world by storm, and they don't come in silver. I really think that fact alone should cause you all to consider a black 972.I haven't read this thread, but I assume they will.

It would be market suicide not to offer a version in black. The black Onkyos are outselling the silver versions by more than 4 to 1.

[bfdtv]

Onkyo recently released a firmware update for the 875/905 and the pre-pros. It corrects most of the bugs, including all of the major complaints such as color alteration. Looks like the Reon has been fully and correctly implemented at this point, at least as much as the XA2.

Not much out of Jeff lately so I have been losing my enthusiasm over the 972. I was not planning on picking up my AVR for a couple of months anyway, so there is some hope left for me. But I am rapidly deciding on the 905.

Trinnov still holds quite a bit of appeal. But the 905 has ethernet, HD radio, a massive torroidal transformer, and seperate A/V power supplies. If the 972 could add these, along with support for FLAC, and sell for under $1500 shipped (retail), like the 905 does, then I would hold out for it.The Onkyo firmware update addresses the video output issues, but it still doesn't address the audio delay / latency issue.

[Robert Whitehead]

The 905 also runs exceptionally hot. Heat is the killer of electronic components. I also would almost guarantee that the R-972 will have better sound quality than the 905.

[rudolpht]

Is there a sherwood link for the 972?

[Robert Whitehead]

No, the R-972 isn't on SN's web site yet.

[RolandOG]

We are custom installers in Feeding Hills, Ma (near Springfield if you are from the Eastern part of the state). We are fnishing up a showroom and should be done in a couple of months. If you want a demo of a piece we can certainly arrange it.

We are probably not on SN dealer list since we buy through distribution and not direct. There are a LOT of dealers that buy through distrbution. You can call local shops and see if any local dealer use SN. I'll contact Jeff and see if they will list non-direct dealers which feature their products.

Bob

Okay, that's good to know. When the time comes I'll be in touch. I'm still a few months away from buying anyway so I don't mind the wait for the 972.

[noah katz]

"Any hope for a 972 in black?"

IIRC from earlier in the thread, that's the *only* hope :)

[Stereojeff]

Noah:

Yes. R-972 will be available in black.

Jeff

[fresno1232001]

Great news, Jeff. Many thanks. You'll sell loads more 972's if you offer them in black as well as silver. A black receiver goes with the black-cased Sammy LCDs. Also, the Sammys have a blue light in the base, visible if you use the base and don't wall mount them. The 972 will have at least one blue button on it, I believe, and a blue read-out. So a black 972 will really look good with, say, a Samsung LNT 5271F flat panel. What a combination!
Someone above said the 905 has a massive toroidal transformer. Doesn't the 972 have that too? I thought it did.
Here is a thought: Since Onkyo now seems to have the Reon processor programmed right, why does not S-N just buy a (late model- properly programmed) 905 and download the software out of its Reon and install it in your Reon processor? Why try to re-invent the wheel? If you want to add features, you could do so, but at least the Onkyo Reon seems now to have the grey-level problem solved.

Noah:

Yes. R-972 will be available in black.

Jeff

[fresno1232001]

Jeff- How deep will the 972 be from front to back? More importantly for me, how far is it from the front edge of the front feet to the back of anything on the back of it- I.e. clips, connectors, speaker connectors. I recall from the CES introduction of it that it is ~18" deep overall, but fractions of an inch will be significant for me if I try to put a 972 on the bottom shelf of my Bello AVS-422T stand. That stand has a big, round pier in the MIDDLE, in the back, side to side.

The stand is essentially a three-legged affair, two in the front and that pier in the back located in the middle, side to side. If the stand had four legs, one at each corner, you could put a very deep receiver indeed on the bottom, deepest shelf, but with the pier in the middle, you are blocked by it depth-wise. The pier has a big port in it for running cables into, but if the back of a receiver butts right up against it, things can still get tight cable-wise since the pier is pretty wide and the port it in is not nearly as wide. Also, I believe the stand's two lower tempered glass shelves are rated for 50 lbs. (The top shelf is rated for much more weight since people will set big-screens on it). I believe the 972 will be ~52 lbs, yes? I'd be willing the chance 52 lbs on that bottom glass, especially since it would be easy to place carefully-sized wood blocks under the glass to add support to it.

If the fit is just too tight for the cables in the back around that pier, and if the danger is too great wrt to the bottom glass shelf breaking with 52 lbs. on it, I thought of a way around both. Take the bottom glass shelf OUT and put four carefully-sized wooden cubes on the FLOOR upon which to rest the four feet of the 972. These could be placed front to back so that the receiver sits a little farther forward than it would if the front feet were right out at the front of the glass shelf, giving a little more clearance for cables back there at that pier. And these wooden cubes can be just tall enough that the bottom of the receiver clears the steel cross-members running left to right at the bottom of the stand. Since I have tile, I'll put felt on the bottom surfaces of the cubes to protect my tile.

Anyone contending with these Bello stands can use this solution. This style of Bello stands- the three legged ones, comes in 3 different sizes in terms of height and width but the deepest of them is only 1/2" deeper than mine and all have a 50 lb. weight rating on their two lower shelves. See this stand by searching for Bello AVS-422T and seeing the "product picture gallery". Of the three pix, see the one with nothing sitting on the stand to see how that rear pier is positioned. Note that the two lower shelves slide into notches cut into the pier for their rear support. They slide into clips on the inside edges of the two front legs for their two forward supports.

Editing here, I just thought of a further refinement of the "wooden cube" solution. If you like the look of the bottom glass shelf, and I do, and you want to keep it, you could do this: Put two carefully sized cubes under the glass back where the two rear feet of the 972 will be, coming right up against the lower surface of the glass, adding to its weight-bearing potential. Then, to buy an inch or so of extra depth, put two cubes out right in front of the front edge of the bottom glass shelf as far apart as the front feet of the 972 are. These cubes could be made so that for each cube, their top surfaces have two different heights: the lower, rear-most height would come up just under the glass. The taller, forward-most height of each of these two cubes would be exactly the height of the top surface of the lower glass shelf. That way, you could literally place the two front feet of the 972 so that they are half way on the cube and half way on the glass. You have now bought some extra depth front to back and you have strengthened the bottom glass shelf by putting four wooden cubes under it to take the greater-than-50 lbs. weight of the 972.

The whole issue with depth here has to do with the rear pier. It's pretty wide, and it has a vertical port it it, but if the 972 is right up against the pier, even with some wires going into that port, you still might be stressing cables on either side of the port by bending them to go around the sides of the pier or bending them to go into the port. Pull the receiver forward a little and now you are stressing cables less to do either one of those. And, as I say, my wooden cube scheme re-inforces the weight-bearing potential of the bottom glass shelf, rated at 50 lbs.

Editing here- I measured the lower glass shelf of the Bello stand last night. It is very close to 17 3/4" deep BUT it slides into the notch in the pier in the back, so that reduces its real depth to ~17". A shelf is only as deep as its most shallow point, if you are going to mount something relatively wide on it, like the 972. Apparently Bello never thought of receivers being 18" deep.

BTW, my Bello AVS-422T stand is the tallest of the three "3-legged" stands, with the top shelf being 24 1/2" off the floor. The other two are 21 1/2" tall and 19 3/4" tall. For some reason, as they get wider, they get lower. Mine is 41 1/2" wide, and the others are 52" wide and 63" wide, respectively. Bello gives a recommendation for each wrt screen size of big screens they can hold, but those seem to assume that the display is as wide at its base as the case is wide. Now, many big screens are coming with a "stem" at the bottom of the screen mounted on a base which is narrower than the case of the set proper. This allows one to place the set on a table or stand like these Bellos much narrower than the main case of the display. My Bello at 41 1/2" wide can easily accomodate a Samsung whose case is 54" wide, but whose support stand or base is only maybe 32" wide. Were I to place a 56" JVC rear projection LCD on it whose base is also about 56" wide, I'd have a significant portion of the base unsupported at the sides.

In regard to heat generated by some receivers, see the "Onkyo is Junk" thread here in amps, receivers and processors. It discusses stands and heat issues. These Bellos are open on the back, sides and front. Don't know if the 972 will run as hot as the Onkyos.

Overall, I really like my Bello stand. It looks great, and reflects good, modern Italian design. Strong and stable, it says "quality". I recommend the Bello stands. A young woman who was recently a guest in my home commented favorably on it.


Noah:

Yes. R-972 will be available in black.

Jeff

[catapult]

Geez, you guys are worrying about colors and dimensions? How about the important stuff like how well does it work and when can I buy one? Kinda reminds me of when I used to teach skiing and I'd see women in the store buying skis to go with their outfits -- who cares if it's a beginner's ski or an expert's racing ski? ;)

Me -- my gear is in a closet and the shelves are adjustable. I buy it for how it works, not how it looks. ;)

[RolandOG]

Fresno,

...but fractions of an inch will be significant for me if I try to put a 972 on the bottom shelf of my Bello AVS-422T rack.

I don't know what you expect from Jeff. He's not building a custom receiver for you and your stand. I'm sure SN will build what makes the most sense for them and works for as many installations as possible.

Just because someone like catapult disagrees with you doesn't make him an idiot.

[fresno1232001]

Where did I ask Jeff to custom build a receiver for me and my rack? I'm just trying to get an idea if the 972 might fit my rack as is or if I will have to make the mods I have outlined. I think you and catapult should be running mates.
Fresno,



I don't know what you expect from Jeff. He's not building a custom receiver for you and your stand. I'm sure SN will build what makes the most sense for them and works for as many installations as possible.

Just because someone like catapult disagrees with you doesn't make him an idiot.

[RolandOG]

Where did I ask Jeff to custom build a receiver for me and my rack? I'm just trying to get an idea if the 972 might fit my rack as is or if I will have to make the mods I have outlined. I think you and catapult should be running mates.

I know you didn't literally ask for a custom built receiver, and I'm not trying to start a war of words.

A quick scan of this thread shows that you've had a number of posts asking for Jeff to do things that would specifically benefit or appeal to you (headphone jack, Reon, black color). I'm not saying these are bad things, especially the Reon, I'm only pointing it out to show you where I'm coming from.

BTW, nice to see that parting shot about 'running mates'. Good to know you take criticism well.

[Kysersose]

Cleaned up the thread.

Guys, keep things civil.

Kyser

[FreddyW]

Where did I ask Jeff to custom build a receiver for me and my rack? I'm just trying to get an idea if the 972 might fit my rack as is or if I will have to make the mods I have outlined. I think you and catapult should be running mates.


Query: do you really like Samsung LCD's mated with Bello racks? Tough to tell from your posts.

Just wondering!

[Stereojeff]

Gents:

The R-972 will be built on the same chassis as our current R-965 receiver. Full dimensions are available on our website.

Jeff

[DIY Guy]

• Dimensions(WHD) | 440 196 450 mm (17-3/8 7-3/4 17-3/4 inches)

[garciab]

Jeff,

Please tell us, is the 872 still on schedule for Dec., or is it already available?

[fresno1232001]

My Samsung LNT-5271F (current plan) will be mated with (sit on) my Bello stand. My stand is the silver color (grey really) but apparently they now come in black as well. I've never seen one in black. Black might or might not be a little severe with white walls. Either color stand will look good with the piano black Sammy cases (I think). As I say above, the top shelf of my Bello is 24 1/2" off the floor. My current, black Sony Trinitron sits on it and that works fine, so I think the Sammy will be ok there too. BUT I wear bifocals. I'm sitting across a room 16' 1/2" wide. If my Bello were any lower, I'd have to hold my head up all the time to avoid looking through the bifocal lenses, not a good deal at all. For that reason, the other two three-legged Bellos of this design would not work for me, as they are 21 1/2" tall and 19 3/4" tall.

If you don't wear bifocals, those stands could work too. Just be aware of their height differences before you buy one and be sure a big-screen works for you at their heights. They are all great-looking stands, and very strong and stable.

BTW I misplaced a screwdriver that came with my Bello, I called the importer in New Jersey listed on the instruction sheet, and they fired out a replacement right away.

I'll just note here that with a 17 3/4' depth overall for the 972, even with 3/4" hanging over the front of the lower shelf forward from the receiver's front two feet, that will put the back of it right up against the "pier" in the back of my Bello, so I may have to get into the wooden cube idea I outlined above to buy a little space at the back. The bottom shelf in my Bello is 17" from the front edge to the pier at the back. Now that we know the 972 is 17 3/4" deep, and thanks for that information, I'd like to know how far back the front edges of the front feet of the 972 are from the front of the receiver.

Not so incidentally, the back of a 972 is not homogeneous, of course, in terms of what inputs and outputs, etc., are where. Even if it protrudes right back to the center pier, moving it left or right may solve the problem of positioning it relative to the pier so as to solve the cabel stressing issue. I won't know till I see one, or see a good photo of the back of one.

And further BTW, Jeff has yet to squawk about my suggesting they add the Reon processor to the 972, that they offer it in black, or that they place the headphone jack outside the door. They have now implemented two out of three. Spooky who's on here, isn't it? It's a reminder to keep your doors locked at all times, folks.


Query: do you really like Samsung LCD's mated with Bello racks? Tough to tell from your posts.

Just wondering!

[stevekaden]

As for bi-focals (I have variflex) and screen height: I have a big RP in my bedroom. Nothing short of ceiling mount would solve the laying in bed vs. height issue. So rather than drive myself around the block...I bought glasses - single vision, cheap frames just for watching. $150, simple fix, perfect image.

[John McCutcheon]

Query: do you really like Samsung LCD's mated with Bello racks? Tough to tell from your posts.

Just wondering!

Maybe someone should start a thread about them in a more appropriate forum so people looking for info on the upcoming Sherwood-Newcastle receivers wouldn't have to wade through this dribble.

[FreddyW]

Maybe someone should start a thread about them in a more appropriate forum so people looking for info on the upcoming Sherwood-Newcastle receivers wouldn't have to wade through this dribble.

I guess you missed my sarcasm :O

[cybrsage]

Jeff- How deep...

Please use paragraphs and other spacings. I found it impossible to read what you wrote, even though I wanted to read it.

Just a friendly note.

[cybrsage]

Geez, you guys are worrying about colors and dimensions? How about the important stuff like how well does it work and when can I buy one? Kinda reminds me of when I used to teach skiing and I'd see women in the store buying skis to go with their outfits -- who cares if it's a beginner's ski or an expert's racing ski? ;)

Me -- my gear is in a closet and the shelves are adjustable. I buy it for how it works, not how it looks. ;)

Since you do not care how it looks, how it fits on stands, etc., then it is stupid for anyone to care.

Colors and dimensions are important to people who can see their receiver. The "how well it works and when can I buy one" were already asked and answered, so asking them again is simply redundant.

[fresno1232001]

I just edited the two lengthy posts re. Bello stands and how they can be made to work with the 972 to break them into paragraphs.

Please use paragraphs and other spacings. I found it impossible to read what you wrote, even though I wanted to read it.

Just a friendly note.

[krholmberg]

Jeff... first off congrats!

A couple quick questions:

1. Please elaborate on the internet connectivity. Will the R-972 be able to connect with ones main computer to act as a media server?

2. Will the R-972 be able to tune HD radio?

3. What will the output of the amp officially be listed?

4. Will the power supply of the audio and video be separate?

Thanks and I hope to get answers. We certainly appreciate you input on this thread. It is one of the things that sets S/N apart from the competition.

BUMP

[John McCutcheon]

I guess you missed my sarcasm :O
No, I caught it. I just quoted you because your post kind of summed up to me how far off track this thread has wandered.

I, and I suspect others, subscribed to this thread to follow the release of the upcoming Sherwood-Newcastle receivers. Instead we hear, in agonizing detail, how it might be made to fit in a perticular Bello rack and how it might look with a TV someone might buy......and then we end up discussing bifocals?

It's amusing to witness the degenerating effect that the lack of any real news has on these threads.

[Robert Whitehead]

I want mine in mauve.

[krholmberg]

I prefer chartreuse ;).

[kokishin]

Fresno,

I hope you don't mind but I have requested the moderator to make your posts a sticky. The universality and timeless nature of your posts makes them a natural candidate to be immortalized as a sticky. Fascinating stuff!

*All the Best*


Jeff- How deep will the 972 be from front to back? More importantly for me, how far is it from the front edge of the front feet to the back of anything on the back of it- I.e. clips, connectors, speaker connectors. I recall from the CES introduction of it that it is ~18" deep overall, but fractions of an inch will be significant for me if I try to put a 972 on the bottom shelf of my Bello AVS-422T stand. That stand has a big, round pier in the MIDDLE, in the back, side to side.

The stand is essentially a three-legged affair, two in the front and that pier in the back located in the middle, side to side. If the stand had four legs, one at each corner, you could put a very deep receiver indeed on the bottom, deepest shelf, but with the pier in the middle, you are blocked by it depth-wise. The pier has a big port in it for running cables into, but if the back of a receiver butts right up against it, things can still get tight cable-wise since the pier is pretty wide and the port it in is not nearly as wide. Also, I believe the stand's two lower tempered glass shelves are rated for 50 lbs. (The top shelf is rated for much more weight since people will set big-screens on it). I believe the 972 will be ~52 lbs, yes? I'd be willing the chance 52 lbs on that bottom glass, especially since it would be easy to place carefully-sized wood blocks under the glass to add support to it.

If the fit is just too tight for the cables in the back around that pier, and if the danger is too great wrt to the bottom glass shelf breaking with 52 lbs. on it, I thought of a way around both. Take the bottom glass shelf OUT and put four carefully-sized wooden cubes on the FLOOR upon which to rest the four feet of the 972. These could be placed front to back so that the receiver sits a little farther forward than it would if the front feet were right out at the front of the glass shelf, giving a little more clearance for cables back there at that pier. And these wooden cubes can be just tall enough that the bottom of the receiver clears the steel cross-members running left to right at the bottom of the stand. Since I have tile, I'll put felt on the bottom surfaces of the cubes to protect my tile.

Anyone contending with these Bello stands can use this solution. This style of Bello stands- the three legged ones, comes in 3 different sizes in terms of height and width but the deepest of them is only 1/2" deeper than mine and all have a 50 lb. weight rating on their two lower shelves. See this stand by searching for Bello AVS-422T and seeing the "product picture gallery". Of the three pix, see the one with nothing sitting on the stand to see how that rear pier is positioned. Note that the two lower shelves slide into notches cut into the pier for their rear support. They slide into clips on the inside edges of the two front legs for their two forward supports.

Editing here, I just thought of a further refinement of the "wooden cube" solution. If you like the look of the bottom glass shelf, and I do, and you want to keep it, you could do this: Put two carefully sized cubes under the glass back where the two rear feet of the 972 will be, coming right up against the lower surface of the glass, adding to its weight-bearing potential. Then, to buy an inch or so of extra depth, put two cubes out right in front of the front edge of the bottom glass shelf as far apart as the front feet of the 972 are. These cubes could be made so that for each cube, their top surfaces have two different heights: the lower, rear-most height would come up just under the glass. The taller, forward-most height of each of these two cubes would be exactly the height of the top surface of the lower glass shelf. That way, you could literally place the two front feet of the 972 so that they are half way on the cube and half way on the glass. You have now bought some extra depth front to back and you have strengthened the bottom glass shelf by putting four wooden cubes under it to take the greater-than-50 lbs. weight of the 972.

The whole issue with depth here has to do with the rear pier. It's pretty wide, and it has a vertical port it it, but if the 972 is right up against the pier, even with some wires going into that port, you still might be stressing cables on either side of the port by bending them to go around the sides of the pier or bending them to go into the port. Pull the receiver forward a little and now you are stressing cables less to do either one of those. And, as I say, my wooden cube scheme re-inforces the weight-bearing potential of the bottom glass shelf, rated at 50 lbs.

Editing here- I measured the lower glass shelf of the Bello stand last night. It is very close to 17 3/4" deep BUT it slides into the notch in the pier in the back, so that reduces its real depth to ~17". A shelf is only as deep as its most shallow point, if you are going to mount something relatively wide on it, like the 972. Apparently Bello never thought of receivers being 18" deep.

BTW, my Bello AVS-422T stand is the tallest of the three "3-legged" stands, with the top shelf being 24 1/2" off the floor. The other two are 21 1/2" tall and 19 3/4" tall. For some reason, as they get wider, they get lower. Mine is 41 1/2" wide, and the others are 52" wide and 63" wide, respectively. Bello gives a recommendation for each wrt screen size of big screens they can hold, but those seem to assume that the display is as wide at its base as the case is wide. Now, many big screens are coming with a "stem" at the bottom of the screen mounted on a base which is narrower than the case of the set proper. This allows one to place the set on a table or stand like these Bellos much narrower than the main case of the display. My Bello at 41 1/2" wide can easily accomodate a Samsung whose case is 54" wide, but whose support stand or base is only maybe 32" wide. Were I to place a 56" JVC rear projection LCD on it whose base is also about 56" wide, I'd have a significant portion of the base unsupported at the sides.

In regard to heat generated by some receivers, see the "Onkyo is Junk" thread here in amps, receivers and processors. It discusses stands and heat issues. These Bellos are open on the back, sides and front. Don't know if the 972 will run as hot as the Onkyos.

Overall, I really like my Bello stand. It looks great, and reflects good, modern Italian design. Strong and stable, it says "quality". I recommend the Bello stands. A young woman who was recently a guest in my home commented favorably on it.


My Samsung LNT-5271F (current plan) will be mated with (sit on) my Bello stand. My stand is the silver color (grey really) but apparently they now come in black as well. I've never seen one in black. Black might or might not be a little severe with white walls. Either color stand will look good with the piano black Sammy cases (I think). As I say above, the top shelf of my Bello is 24 1/2" off the floor. My current, black Sony Trinitron sits on it and that works fine, so I think the Sammy will be ok there too. BUT I wear bifocals. I'm sitting across a room 16' 1/2" wide. If my Bello were any lower, I'd have to hold my head up all the time to avoid looking through the bifocal lenses, not a good deal at all. For that reason, the other two three-legged Bellos of this design would not work for me, as they are 21 1/2" tall and 19 3/4" tall.

If you don't wear bifocals, those stands could work too. Just be aware of their height differences before you buy one and be sure a big-screen works for you at their heights. They are all great-looking stands, and very strong and stable.

BTW I misplaced a screwdriver that came with my Bello, I called the importer in New Jersey listed on the instruction sheet, and they fired out a replacement right away.

I'll just note here that with a 17 3/4' depth overall for the 972, even with 3/4" hanging over the front of the lower shelf forward from the receiver's front two feet, that will put the back of it right up against the "pier" in the back of my Bello, so I may have to get into the wooden cube idea I outlined above to buy a little space at the back. The bottom shelf in my Bello is 17" from the front edge to the pier at the back. Now that we know the 972 is 17 3/4" deep, and thanks for that information, I'd like to know how far back the front edges of the front feet of the 972 are from the front of the receiver.

Not so incidentally, the back of a 972 is not homogeneous, of course, in terms of what inputs and outputs, etc., are where. Even if it protrudes right back to the center pier, moving it left or right may solve the problem of positioning it relative to the pier so as to solve the cabel stressing issue. I won't know till I see one, or see a good photo of the back of one.

And further BTW, Jeff has yet to squawk about my suggesting they add the Reon processor to the 972, that they offer it in black, or that they place the headphone jack outside the door. They have now implemented two out of three. Spooky who's on here, isn't it? It's a reminder to keep your doors locked at all times, folks.

[krholmberg]

Jeff...

We need your help! This thread has gone off the deep end :confused:.

Please answer our questions (or at least address them) so we can get back on topic.

Thanks...

[Graham Johnson]

where's the "unsubscribe' button on here?? :rolleyes:

[glennQNYC]

That Trinnov processor sounds like it is going to be an awesome addition.

glennQ

[Desmo888]

Will the new model accept/process pure DSD and MLP via HDMI for use with DVD-A and SACD players?


What is Digi-Link III and what are its parameters?


What is "TADS" and why is it important?


Also, Jeff, please update the Newcastle website with latest information including a high resolution picture of the rear.

[FreddyW]

Before you all get mad here, I suggest you try emailing Jeff. He's under no obligation to post here. This is an AVS forum, not Sherwood-owned or sponsored.

[Desmo888]

Before you all get mad here, I suggest you try emailing Jeff. He's under no obligation to post here. This is an AVS forum, not Sherwood-owned or sponsored.

Hi FreddyW,

It is my belief that the few post above are aimed at getting back the thread that has been hijacked; it is more urgency oriented than emotionally negative.

[crbaldwin]

Do these receivers have startup volume control? That is, can they reset to a (lower) user-set volume level when you turn them on?

[krholmberg]

Do these receivers have startup volume control? That is, can they reset to a (lower) user-set volume level when you turn them on?

I've never thought about it but that would be nice.

[fyzziks]

In the absence of more info from Jeff, how about a discussion of the Trinnov system? It does seem appropriate, given that the 972 will be the first consumer product to feature it.

I've taken a quick look at the Sensible Sound article, which is available online here (http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Trinnov+optimizer.-a0158832025), but unfortunately without figures.

I have a couple of concerns:

1. It requires the use of monopole speakers in all positions, including all surrounds
2. It appears to me to be effective in a very limited area around the measurement position.
3. It is not clear to me from the article how well this system works correcting narrow-bandwidth resonances in the bass region.

Anyone care to comment, based on the article or any other reading or experience you may have?

[krholmberg]

Discussing the Trinnov Optomizer (TO) is a great idea.

I didn't realize the TO requires the use of monopole speakers. There is a set of speakers I'm really interested in getting but the three front speakers have open baffles and the surrounds are omni directional. Damn. I was all set on pairing the R-972 with those speakers.

Jeff... can you please comment on the requirements of the TO (like if monopole speakers are required). Please also comment on the relative size of the "sweet spot".

Do any of you know if monopole speakers are required by MultEQ XT or Professional?

[Stereojeff]

I'll check with Trinnov regarding monopole speakers. I don't think it is a requirement.

Narrow band bass peaks should be no problem.

Jeff

[facesnorth]

The Onkyo firmware update addresses the video output issues, but it still doesn't address the audio delay / latency issue.

The fact that they released this update fairly quickly shows they are responsive to owner's demands. I will be in the market for an AVR in a couple months and I expect these other wrinkles to be ironed out by then.

The 905 also runs exceptionally hot. Heat is the killer of electronic components. I also would almost guarantee that the R-972 will have better sound quality than the 905.

Who's to say the R-972 won't run hot as well?

I for one hope that the R-972 will fulfill our expectations. I hope it supports FLAC, HD Radio, ethernet, etc. Both XM and Sirius hookups would be nice as well, I hate when they choose one or the other.

If the Reon is implemented correctly, and it sounds as good or better than the 905, for equal or less $ street price, then I'm all over it. I just hope it keeps on schedule.

[krholmberg]

I'll check with Trinnov regarding monopole speakers. I don't think it is a requirement.

Narrow band bass peaks should be no problem.

Jeff

Jeff... thanks for the quick reply :D.

I also appreciate you looking further into this.

Please also address the size of the "sweet spot" with the Trinnov Optomizer, whether the R-972 will play HD Radio and whether it will be able to connect with an external media server over an ethernet and/or wifi connection.

The size of the sweet spot isn't a deal breaker, but having a larger one would be nice.

[fyzziks]

Do any of you know if monopole speakers are required by MultEQ XT or Professional?

No, there is no such requirement for the Audyssey system, probably because it is not trying to move the effective sound sources around spatially, like the Trinnov is.

According to the article and some of the ancillary material on the Trinnov website, the system adjusts delay and levels of the channels you have, to try to recreate the original positions of the sources on the mixing stage, i.e. make the sound you hear at home as much like the sound the guy mixing the film heard as possible. The film mixer didn't have dipole surrounds - almost all mixing stages use five identical monitors spaced in the standard 5 (or maybe 7, now) channel positions (ITU 775 standard).

[fyzziks]

I for one hope that the R-972 will fulfill our expectations. I hope it supports FLAC, HD Radio, ethernet, etc. Both XM and Sirius hookups would be nice as well, I hate when they choose one or the other.

If the Reon is implemented correctly, and it sounds as good or better than the 905, for equal or less $ street price, then I'm all over it. I just hope it keeps on schedule.

I am looking forward to this unit as well, to use as a prepro.

Agreed about the Reon - I hope they absorb lessons learned from Onk:
1. Implement the complete set of controls available
2. Keep the black level right
3. Don't automatically and uncontrollably stretch 4:3 input material (such as from a VCR or cable box) in the Reon to 16:9

Finally, get the HDMI interface right - the Onks all down the line fail to output audio from a CD played on an HDMI 1.3 player when the TV is off. Be more like Denon in this regard.

It would also be really impressive to have a mode that minimizes audio latency (selectable by input) for those game players among us. That would really put this AVR in a class by itself.

[Stereojeff]

fyzziks:

The Trinnov goal is to recreate the acoustic field of the original recording. Speaker EQ is only the starting point. Recreation of the 3D spatiality also requires that the speakers acoustic centers match those of the original. Although the Optimizer can raise or lower an out of plane speaker, its real magic is its ability to recreate ITU 775 or the SMPTE Cinema standards even when speakers cannot be placed as required by these standards.

The sweet spot is somewhat dependent on how much work we need to do with the 3D remapping. The closer the speakers are to the standard before we engage Trinnov the wider the sweet spot will be. Even with typical room placement, in most cases, the sweet spot will be quite large.

Regarding David Rich's assertions about monopole speakers, here's what the guy from Trinnov had to say: "In the case of dipoles- the speakers will get an energy based compensation. We have successfully tested dipoles even with the calibration mic at the null. The system was able to do this back when David did his review, and there have been improvements since."

Also "all channels- loudspeakers and subs- get low frequency correction.
Current DSP implementation has multiple IIR filters for that very purpose."

As to some of the other questions: The R-972 will process DSD and DVD-A over HDMI. TDAS means totally discrete amplifier stages. Digilink III is a proprietary communications protocol that allows one of our components to communicate with other of our Sherwood and Newcastle components.

Jeff

[crbaldwin]

I've never thought about it but that would be nice.

I take it startup volume level is not implemented in Sherwood's current receivers? This is a feature I really missed when I didn't have an HK receiver.

[fyzziks]

fyzziks:

The sweet spot is somewhat dependent on how much work we need to do with the 3D remapping. The closer the speakers are to the standard before we engage Trinnov the wider the sweet spot will be. Even with typical room placement, in most cases, the sweet spot will be quite large.

This makes some sense, but its still hard to assess how large "quite large" actually is. If, say like most of us, the LR speakers are in about the right places, but the center is a couple of feet low or high - the sweet spot might be roughly some percentage of the room length and width? Like 5-10%, maybe?


Regarding David Rich's assertions about monopole speakers, here's what the guy from Trinnov had to say: "In the case of dipoles- the speakers will get an energy based compensation. We have successfully tested dipoles even with the calibration mic at the null. The system was able to do this back when David did his review, and there have been improvements since."


I don't understand what is meant here by "energy based" in the context of the sound source relocation process. "Energy based" does make sense to me in the context of equalization, though.


Also "all channels- loudspeakers and subs- get low frequency correction.
Current DSP implementation has multiple IIR filters for that very purpose."

Well, I should hope so:) The question was more about the resolution of those filters, which often must be quite narrow to accurately correct the room effects. Are the filters minimum phase, so that when they correct the amplitude, the phase is automatically also corrected, and the impulse response is cleaned up?

Thanks very much for this information, Jeff. I am inspired to do some more reading in the white papers, and maybe check out some of the AES articles.

Also nice to know we are neighbors.

[krholmberg]

Jeff... thanks for the details!

A couple of quick questions. You referenced dipoles... were you speaking of dipole surrounds? Does that mean open baffle L, C and R speakers are OK? What about omni-directional surrounds instead of dipoles?

[glennQNYC]

Seems like the short story is that Newcastle's utilization of the Trinnov processor, will result in an AVR with the most sophisticated 'room correction' anywhere even remotely close to it's price point.
At $1800 retail, even if you painted it pink I'd be first in line. :)

glennQ

[SlackerX]

I would like to know if both the 872 and the 772 will allow you to pass HDMI audio to a display and let you use the 5.1/7.1 analog inputs for sound from the same source going to the same output channels (such as the HDMI video and 7.1 analog audio output from my Home Theater PC).

So, basically, can you mix HDMI digital video input with 5.1/7.1 analog audio input synchronously. Thanks.

[Desmo888]

I would like to know if both the 872 and the 772 will allow you to pass HDMI audio to a display and let you use the 5.1/7.1 analog inputs for sound from the same source going to the same output channels (such as the HDMI video and 7.1 analog audio output from my Home Theater PC).

So, basically, can you mix HDMI digital video input with 5.1/7.1 analog audio input synchronously. Thanks.

Just out of curiosity, why would you want to do this?

[catapult]

Seems like the short story is that Newcastle's utilization of the Trinnov processor, will result in an AVR with the most sophisticated 'room correction' anywhere even remotely close to it's price point.
At $1800 retail, even if you painted it pink I'd be first in line. It does sound promising but I think we'll have to wait and see (listen.) Sometimes simpler is better if it does less harm. In spite of being nearly brain dead compared to Audyssey, some people prefer the sound of Pioneer's octave-band EQ to what they could achieve in their rooms with Audyssey. My take is Audyssey tries to do too much with not enough user control and it has a hard time getting repeatable results. You run it once and if you run it again it may get better or it may get worse but you can't go back to the old one if it gets worse.

[cybrsage]

Seems like the short story is that Newcastle's utilization of the Trinnov processor, will result in an AVR with the most sophisticated 'room correction' anywhere even remotely close to it's price point.
At $1800 retail, even if you painted it pink I'd be first in line. :)

glennQ

If they made a pink one my wife would demand I buy one.

So here is a vote for producing one in pink. :)

[SlackerX]

Just out of curiosity, why would you want to do this?

I have a high end sound card in my computer with excellent analog output for both music and movies. I want to be able to play the sound through the analog channels and video over the HDMI interface on certain occasions.


PS-- I can live with the color. :p

[Desmo888]

I have a high end sound card in my computer with excellent analog output for both music and movies. I want to be able to play the sound through the analog channels and video over the HDMI interface on certain occasions.

The 965 has an 8channel direct input feature that does this. Hopefully the upcoming 8 series will possess the same feature with HDMI.

Since no one has the 872 yet; it is a wait and see game.

[SlackerX]

Thanks, that's interesting information.

On the same note, I called up Sherwood technical support today and asked them about this directly. A nice engineer in their department is going to test this functionality out for me on an R-772 Newcastle recevier and get back to me.

He also said that the R-872 should be available "by the end of this month."

[KenWH]

Wow...I've been out of the Sherwood loop since selling my P-965(needed hdmi for my pj so I bought a denon 2807) . This new 972 sounds like it's going to be a nice unit.

Hopefully it will have one of my favorite P965 features...bass management for analog 7.1 ch inputs(for sacd/dvd-a/etc).

The P965 hands down had better all around sound than my current Denon.
Yes the P965 had some quirks in the user interface etc. but I really miss it's sound quality.

[krholmberg]

I e-mailed Audyssy regarding their opinion on how they differ from Trinnov (as well as a few other questions). I got a very professional response. Here is the exchange...


My initial e-mail:


Hi...

I'm interested your opinion on what differentiates the Audyssey MultEQ XT from the Trinnov Optomizer. I'm considering two receivers at this point... the ONKYO TX-NR905 and Sherwood/Newcastle R-972 (not out yet). I know that they both have EQ systems that use FIR filters, but other than that I hear they are quite different. I've also read on many occasions that the MultEQ XT in receivers doesn't perform as well as the stand alone unit. Does the MultEQ XT used in the ONKYO 905 perform better than it's predecessors? I ask that because advertising indicates it has the potential to use the PRO format. I don't know if the Trinnov EQ in the receiver will work as well as that in the stand alone unit as the S/N R-972 is the first receiver to have it and it won't be released until March '08. Also, one last question, and this is crucial. I have my heart set on a beautiful set of speakers for my home theater. Here's the catch. The front three have open baffles and the 4 surrounds are omnipolar in design. Will MultEQ work with non-direct radiating speakers such as these? I've read the Trinnov Optimizer only works with direct radiators.

Thanks for your info and patience...

Krister



Their reply:

Hi Krister,

The Trinnov Optimizer and MultEQ XT are very different products. The Trinnov Optimizer is an advanced speaker mapping method that tries to virtually place the speakers in the correct location for 5.1 reproduction, even if the speakers are physically in non-optimal locations. MultEQ XT on the other hand, is a room measurement and correction algorithm that tries to invert the acoustical problems that occur when sound from speakers interacts with the room through reflections and standing waves.

Regarding the comparison between the receiver version of MultEQ XT and the one in the Sound Equalizer, the answer is that in the Sound Equalizer we have the luxury of using the entire DSP chip and so the filter resolution is higher than what is found in receivers where we have to share the DSP resources with other functions.

Several receivers on the market from Denon, Onkyo, NAD, and Crestron now feature Audyssey Pro calibration. This is performed by an installer who runs a more advanced version of our software on their PC and can capture more data in the room for better room correction.

Yes, MultEQ will work just fine with open baffles and omnipolar speakers.

Best regards,
Chris


I'm pretty impressed with the response. I wonder if the same type of issues will apply to the Trinnov. Chris implies the Trinnov Optomizer doesn't correct for the acoustic properties of the room but only spacially relocates the speakers to their ideal location.

[krholmberg]

Jeff...

I recall you saying the Trinnov Optomizer function in the R-972 does in fact allow more advanced acoustic intervention (fixing in-room acoustic problems as well as setting target curves) in addition to virtually relocating the speakers to their optimal position. I assume the main advantage of Audyssey's system is increasing the sound quality within a larger area whereas the main advantage of the Trinnov system creating a damn near ideal sound for an individual location. Does this sound about right? Can you elaborate? Did you definitively find out if the Trinnov Optomizer works with open baffle and omni-polar speakers as opposed to direct radiators and dipole surrounds?

Thanks...

[peeweep69]

Krhomlberg

Wonder what Trinnov's official response would be? Would you mind shooting an email off to Trinnov, I'm sure other people would be interested as well. Thanks.

[Stereojeff]

krholmberg:

Frankly, I think any comparison between Trinnov and Audyssey should come from disinterested 3rd parties and not from me. That being said, while we have not studied all of the units that offer MultEQxt, the ones we have looked at suggest that reviewers will find larger differences than you suggest.

I have discussed open baffle, di-pole and bi-pole speakers with Trinnov and they have confirmed that their technology is compatible.

Jeff

[krholmberg]

Jeff...

I appreciate your professionalism. And, thanks for speaking with them... you got the response I was hoping for :D. Everything I hear about the Trinnov's capability sounds wonderful... there is just so little practical experience with the unit that we're left wondering/wanting more.

BTW, even though biased, we'd appreciate your opinion when the time is right.

[krholmberg]

Krhomlberg

Wonder what Trinnov's official response would be? Would you mind shooting an email off to Trinnov, I'm sure other people would be interested as well. Thanks.

Done. We'll see what they say.

As Jeff said, the real proof will be when independant reviewers compare them.

[krholmberg]

OK guys... I e-maild Trinnov and received a very detailed response from Curt Hoyt. Since he directly referenced each of my questions (and intertwined his response with my e-mail), I'm only including his reply.


Hi,
I am a audio/videophile who is looking forward to the release of the Sherwood Newcastle R-972 A/V receiver. It is my understanding that it will be the first receiver to utilize the capabilities of the Trinnov Optimizer. I have a few questions regarding this exciting development:

1. Would you please explain how it differs from the Audyssey MultEQ XT? More to the point, can you explain how the Trinnov Optimizer's implementation in the S/N R-972 differs from the Audyssey MultEQ XT Pro version utilized in a number of competing higher end receivers?


Trinnov: Our expertise is in the reproduction of acoustic fields. Trinnov was founded as a result of 3d acoustic research and ongoing research is a cornerstone of our company. To learn more, visit www.trinnov.com/research.php (http://www.trinnov.com/research.php). Key to understanding why Trinnov's approach is so unique is to look at what the reference standard has been: make speakers sound alike. For spatial reproduction- this calls for exacting speaker placement relative to the listener, and moving the speakers to comform to different listening standards. This is rarely achieved outside of studios and dedicated rooms, and even then, not easy to do. Now Trinnov changes all of that: put speakers where you can, following general guidelines, and you'll get spectacular results over an enlarged area. Why? Because Trinnov solves all aspects of the reproduction equation: voicing and spatiality, by using advanced 3d acoustics algorithms. The improvement applies to the sweet spot as well as the listening area. While the sweet spot gains the most benefit, and the surrounding area benefits as well for multiple listeners. Trinnov provides a unique calibration microphone array with every system that collects 3d acoustical data from the speakers, their placement, and the room. The Trinnov Optimizer analyzes the acoustic data and computes correction filters to reconstruct the acoustic field, giving the same voicing and spatiality of the original. Trinnov's Optimizer Pro provides this same function for some of the toughest production environments in the world: surround broadcast vans, cinema post production, and in surround music studios. The R-972 will be the first consumer product to embody this advanced technology. The R-972 functions with the same analyzing power as the professional Optimizer, and has a reduced feature set that is both easy to use and optimized for audiophile use. The R-972 provides for presets based on multiple acoustic orientations, allowing for Optimization of different listening experiences. As an example, use one setup Optimized for HDTV viewing and other Optimized setups for surround music listening from your favorite reading chair or social area. Even rotate the soundstage in any direction to match…

2. A separate point that I hope you'll address... the Audyssey MultEQ XT is known for decreasing LFE output to a level that makes a lot of people not want to utilize the EQ functions (they calibrate the response too flat and offer minimal user adjustability). A lot of us bass heads like to have a house curve in our home theaters such that there is a gradual upslope of output from 80hz down to 30hz. I personally use a parametric EQ so I'm about 10dB hot from 20-30Hz... north of 30Hz there is a gentle slope down to flat at 80Hz... south of 20Hz there is a gentle slope down to flat at 10Hz. Will I still be able to enjoy that kind of output with the S/N R-972 when utilizing the Trinnov functions?


Trinnov: The Optimizer provides loudspeaker correction to correct for speakers, their placement, and the room. Once that is done, user target curves are offered for those who want to modify to particular tastes. Most who hear flat bass reproduction are startled to find a perceived lack of bass, due to the removal of room mode resonances or peaks. Its common to address this by providing a modest bass boost. The R-972 has such a user option, controllable Bass and Treble adjustments, and a provision for future updates of new user target curves that could be tailored to specific tastes.


3. The Audyssey stand alone unit is known to perform much better than the unit in the receivers... is this something that we can expect with the R-972/Trinnov combo? BTW, their explanation is the DSP has to be shared with other functions thus the MultEQ XT is somewhat limited. They also mentioned the Pro version in the newer higher end receivers addresses this to some extent.


Trinnov: As stated above, the R-972 utilizes the same acoustical analysis algorithms as Trinnov's Professional Optimizer, with a dedicated DSP (TI's DA-708). In the past, a big bottleneck to acoustic computations has been higher sampling rates- double the sampling rate and the computation requirements quadruple, placing severe limits on what can be done. Trinnov has developed a process that removes the processing limits that higher sampling rates call for. As a result, Trinnov provides the full Optimizer Pro calibration sequence, with the result that the computations in the DSP take somewhat longer then in the Pro version. Trinnov feels that the trade-off in setup time (extra minutes) will be time well rewarded every time you turn the R-972 on.


4. Lastly, I have my heart set on a beautiful set of speakers. The catch is the front three speakers have open baffles and the rears are omnipolar. I've heard it mentioned that the Trinnov Optimizer requires direct radiating speakers (and I haven't heard it definitively rebuked). Will I be able to use those speakers with the S/N R-972 receiver and have the Trinnov functions work to their highest potential?

Trinnov: The Trinnov Optimizer has been used with everything from direct radiators, to dipoles, planer electrostatics, all with excellent results.

Thank you very much in advance for addressing my concerns. I'm looking forward to your response.

Sincerely,

Krister

PS. I sent a similar e-mail to Audyssey and they replied with a very respectful comparison. They mentioned the key thing that set the Trinnov Optimizer apart is the spatial reconfiguration of speaker location but elected to not to mention its capability to deal with room acoustics (which of course is their bread and butter). Will you please address all of the functions of the Trinnov Optimizer in the S/N R-972 receiver?

Trinnov: Room acoustics are an important element of the reproduction of any acoustic field. In order to get spatial reproduction right, the 3d acoustic field must be accounted for and managed, hence the importance of room acoustics, loudspeaker voicing and so on. They are all elements of a bigger picture encompassed by Trinnov's Optimizer.

[krholmberg]

I'm pretty impressed with Curt's response. Although their stand alone unit is better than Audyssey's stand alone unit, it seems to me like they may have paid attention to limitations that Audyssey had to deal with when using their EQ in receivers (sharing processing power). The implementation of the Trinnov Optimizer in the S/N R-972 seems address many issues people have the MultEQ XT in other receivers. I for one am really looking forward to the actual product. March can't come soon enough :D.

Edit: I'm releived that they will offer some customization of the lower end (unlike MultEQ XT)...

The R-972 has such a user option, controllable Bass and Treble adjustments, and a provision for future updates of new user target curves that could be tailored to specific tastes.

I wonder how user adjustable the target curves (if updated to allow this) will be and how one will be able to implement them. My best guess is it's via the GUI.

[peeweep69]

WOW . . . had to read that a few times :D. Wonder if Trinnov was serious about including a "unique microphone array" with the R-972, or if that will have to be purchased separately to get a better calibrated system than the usual microphones included with other systems.

[Stereojeff]

The unique microphone array Curt refers to is our "acoustic probe". It has 4 microphone capsules arranged in a tetrahedron and can capture the room in 3 dimensions. This leads to extremely accurate results. Levels are measured to the tenth of a dB. Delay is set to the 100th of a millisecond. The probe will be included with the R-972.

Jeff

[krholmberg]

Jeff posted this in #530:

Trinnov users can write stored performance data to the R-972’s USB jack, sign on to our website, load the stored data and print before-and-after graphs of their system. New target curves will be offered on the web so users can match the sound of their system to their playback material.


Jeff posted this in #354
Quote:
Jeff,

Does the Trinnov come with the proper mike array to set up the Trinnov.
__________________
Noah
Noah:

The 4 capsule mic needed for Trinnov setup will be included with the R-972.

Jeff

[krholmberg]

Ahh Jeff... I went back to find your previous post but you beat me to the punch. Oh well.

[Southern Spy]

I'm getting impatient waiting ..... even more so after reading the response from Trinnov... I look forward to hearing this unit

[noah katz]

Thanks, Krister, that's fantastic information.

Especially interesting to me is the capability to rotate the sound stage.

I was getting real close to ordering an NAD T775, but it sounds like it's worth the wait.

[peeweep69]

Jeff
Thanks for the refresh, should have searched before I posted :).

[krholmberg]

Thanks, Krister, that's fantastic information.

Especially interesting to me is the capability to rotate the sound stage.

I was getting real close to ordering an NAD T775, but it sounds like it's worth the wait.

Hey Noah... glad to do it :D.

I was really impressed with his response. It was nice to get good solid info on something most people in the industry just aren't that familiar.

As for the rotational aspect... I would imagine that would be really nice in todays family rooms. The TV is on one end, the kitchen is 90' away and the fireplace may be 180' away. The average listener could look in any direction and think they are getting great stereo or multichannel sound. It seems like all but the most discriminating audiophile might think that, too. It'll be fun to read the reviews and the first user reports :D in March and April.

[peeweep69]

It'll be fun to read the reviews and the first user reports :D in March and April.

I'm definitely going to be waiting for your review then Krholmberg :D.

[facesnorth]

Looks like my pre-order on the 905 just got a ship notice. I'll have 30 days to decide if I want to keep it. I was kind of hoping the delays would extend a few more months so more info on the 972 would become available. Any arguements for/against either keeping the 905 or holding out for the 972 that could help sway my decision? I'll be pairing it with Quad 22L2 fronts, an L2 center, and eventually a sub and surrounds. 33% movies/HDTV, 33% games, 33% music. Also I will run ethernet to my PC to stream music from the PC. My TV is a Sharp LC-46D64U 1080p LCD panel. I also have a Westinghouse LVM-37W3 on my PC, but I don't think I'd be able to have both sets hooked up, so I'd choose the Sharp which is my main panel for HDTV/movies/games. BTW I got a great price on the 905. (I thought I posted this earlier but I can't find it now).

[cybrsage]

I have been very interested in the Denon 3808, but it has lots of problems with a 6.1 setup. It treats it like a 7.1 and then give horrible results.

Will the 972 have problems with a 6.1 setup?

So far, this product is back at the top of my list.

[Dave Moritz]

Would love to know where you are hearing that the Denon has such bad issues with 6.1? I have heard nothing but positive feedback on the Denon AVR-3808ci! I would not trust the Sherwood any further than I could throw it. I did research on Sherwood Newcastle, Sony, Pioneer Elite, Marantz, Yamaha, Onkyo, Onkyo Integra, Pioneer and Denon. And even though I almost went with the Pioneer Elite, I ended up choosing the Denon. From what I have seen it is the best out there at this time.

[cybrsage]

Would love to know where you are hearing that the Denon has such bad issues with 6.1? I have heard nothing but positive feedback on the Denon AVR-3808ci! I would not trust the Sherwood any further than I could throw it. I did research on Sherwood Newcastle, Sony, Pioneer Elite, Marantz, Yamaha, Onkyo, Onkyo Integra, Pioneer and Denon. And even though I almost went with the Pioneer Elite, I ended up choosing the Denon. From what I have seen it is the best out there at this time.

I got it from here:

Denon 3808 & 4308 Bugs, undesired features, and enhancements desired
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=887746


Specific entries:

AUDYSSEY does not support 6.1 configuration
The Audyssey setup does not support a 6.1 speaker configuration. Denon has acknowledged that this is a bug - see this post for more info:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...&postcount=673



I agree that the 6.1 set-up is not fully resolved. However, I found a work-around that I'm using:

Hook up your back surround speaker to the left back surround, not the surround B speakers (you need to change the amp setting for this). Set the auto set-up to a 7.1 set-up. When the set-up routine gets to the surround back right speaker, if it's too quiet, you'll get the "No mic or speaker" error and be forced to redo the set-up. If, however, there's an "appropriate" level of back ground noise, the auto set-up will skip the back right surround speaker and when it's done with the back left surround, left surround and sub, it will correctly configure your system for a 6.1 speaker system. The trick is to determine what's an "appropriate" background noise. Since I wanted the room perfectly quiet for calibration of the other speakers, I wait until the set-up routine gets to the back right surround and then turn on a dust-buster vacuum cleaner (in the back of the room, about 20 feet away from the mic) for 8 seconds. Sounds crazy, but it works for me... Hopefully the next firmware update will fix this correctly!

Upon further testing it is still a little flaky with 1.57, I'll try 1.60 when I get home. It will skip to SBL but during SBR it can not be totally quiet in the room or it will fall to reset. But, you can get it to work if you make a little noise while it searches for SBR. Odd, I know, but let's see if 1.60 clears it up totally.

[facesnorth]

snooze....

[chrhon]

I've never spent more than around $1k for a receiver before but if the R-972 is as great as trinnov and S/N are making it out to be the extra technology would be worth spending the money for - room correction is very enticing to me. I can't wait - right now I am actually manually unplugging the HDMI from one component to another when needed as I wait for everything I want in an HDMI receiver (actually I pretty much leave the HDMI plugged into the Bluray and run component for everything else unless I feel like being really picky - then I manually switch)

[TowJumper]

I am considering the Onkyo models 805, 875 and 905 and now the S/N 972 as an upgrade for my great but aging Yamaha 2400 receiver in my dedicated Home Theater room. It will feed my Epson 1080P projector.

Currently I using an HDMI switch to control my various video sources (HTPC, Motorola DCT-6412 STB and PS3) so I use separate coax and TOSlink link connections for my respective digital audio. Thankfully, my old Yamaha has plenty of digital inputs.

Apparently, when using many receivers to switch inputs on the HDMI, actions like changing channels or fast forwarding DVR content on the STB often causes audio dropouts of 1-2 seconds. This would drive me crazy and does not occur with my Oppo HDMI switch/separate audio cable setup.

Jeff, are these issues being addressed in the 972 development?

Thanks in advance.

[dsmith901]

The unique microphone array Curt refers to is our "acoustic probe".

Jeff

Ouch! "Acoustic probe" brings to mind an unpleasant medical procedure. You guys may want to consider renaming it something else. LOL! :eek:

[Dave Moritz]

Sound like a procedure performed by alien's on humans, ROFL :eek:

[tempus06]

Hello,

I have read through the whole thread and as the R-972 is delayed until March, is it possible to have the HDMI 1.3b connections ?

I've seen for example that the Panasonic DMP-BD30 Blu-Ray unit is getting out with this newest version of the HDMI spec.

Another question : as I live in France when will this receiver be released there ?

Thanks in advance for your answers Jeff.

[facesnorth]

Well, I didn't receive any arguments why I should cancel and wait for the 972, so I'm definitely going to keep the 905. Just not enough solid info yet or answers to questions about the 972. The 972 only has the Trinnov to interest me. The 905 has many other features and details which are of great appeal. I posed the question several times if certain features were being considered for the 972, but Jeff never commented on any of my posts, so now I don't have any reason to wait...

Oh well, I'm still interested to see how this turns out when it finally drops...

[glennQNYC]

Well, I didn't receive any arguments why I should cancel and wait for the 972...

:rolleyes:

glennQ

[krholmberg]

Facesnorth,

Unfortunately we can't give you any real advice since this thing at this point is only vaporware. The fact that Jeff didn't answer your questions makes me think certain features are still up in the air and he didn't want to commit. Either that or he didn't see your posts :rolleyes:.

[noah katz]

If it's still vaporware, chances are slim that we'll be seeing it in March.

[tempus06]

I hope that it's not vaporware and that the CES 2008 will unveal its release issue with all the specs stabilized.

By the Way what do you think of the Thunder Audio Video and Inifinite Electronix retailer ?

[danhawk911]

where is the best place to order sherwood newcastle products online

[Robert Whitehead]

There are no authorized on line SN dealers; only B&M dealers.

[Southern Spy]

Axiom Speakers are authorized online dealer

[Legairre]

Contact www.digitalconnection.com (http://www.digitalconnection.com) they are authorized, but can only list MSRP on their site. If you call them they will give you a good price.

[fresno1232001]

I am a huge fan and buyer of Aix Records DVD-As. www.aixrecords.com. Mark Waldrep records everything live on hard drives. No old tapes, no artificial reverb, no EQ, no over-dubs. I have ~$500 of his disks, which I play in my Panny S-97 DVD-A player. It is 96 kHz, 24 bit word length 5.1 channel material, and the best DVD-As on the market. Simply breathtaking audio fidelity.
Now he has started www.itrax.com, and there you can download his tracks for ~$2 per track. BUT, once you do that, burning them to a DVD-A blank appears to be very difficult. Minnetonka makes DVD-A authoring software, but it limits you to 44 kHz in 5.1 track mode, not the 96 kHz sampling rate of Dr. Waldrep's tracks.
I see wireless routers advertised at BestBuy. An example is the Netgear RangeMax NEXT Wireless N Router. It can "simultaneously stream HD video, download MP3s and more at blazing speeds" says todays Sunday BestBuy ad. Would any of these work to send information from a computer to a receiver such as the coming AVR-972? And if they can do this, what sort of device would receive the signal at the avr receiver end and feed it into the receiver? I'm talking about DVD-A tracks in 5.1 with video. Alternatively, if that won't work, is there a way to send such content down a cable from a computer to this receiver? I see discussions on this thread about streaming material from a computer into the 972. I just have no idea how one would do that. Any information on how to do this would be most appreciated, perhaps especially from Jeff himself.
There are Niveus Media home media servers, meant for one's great room, which start at $3,299. These connect to the internet, and have big hard drives and no fans. www.niveusmedia.com. The next model up is over $8,000. I suspect this is how (wealthy) downloaders from the Itrax website are getting the tracks into their avr receivers. Dr. Waldrep is a huge fan of these media servers for the home, and his telling me about them a year ago was the first I had heard of them.
Any information here would be deeply appreciated. Jeff, perhaps the AVR-972 will be easily able to receive wireless signals sent from a computer by a router such as I have discussed here. How? What device would receive them and where would it plug into the 972? I am certain there is going to be a huge demand for this capability as physical disks fade away and downloading of content off the net grows. But once we download something off the net, how do we get it from our computer, in a separate room, into the 972?
You can see my discussion of this and some of Mark Waldrep's responses by clicking on the "Audio area" here and then "Surrond Sound Formats". Then see the thread "Aix Records Special Offer".

Contact www.digitalconnection.com (http://www.digitalconnection.com) they are authorized, but can only list MSRP on their site. If you call them they will give you a good price.

[tempus06]

To get it short if I read you well fresno you would like to know if the R-972 will be with DLNA functions as the Denon 4308CI for example ?

[peeweep69]

Anybody (Jeff ;)) knows if SN will be showing off their hardware (R-972 ;))at the January show, sure would be nice to get a preview.

[facesnorth]

To get it short if I read you well fresno you would like to know if the R-972 will be with DLNA functions as the Denon 4308CI for example ?

You would not need DLNA, per se, only an ethernet jack. However, it's absense in the 972 is one of the reasons I chose not to wait for it. If it did have an ethernet jack, you could hypothetically attach a wireless bridge which should communicate with your PC via a router.

[peeweep69]

Or, you could always have another wired/wireless device in the chain, PS3 or Pioneer's latest Elite Blu-ray player.

[ranette]

Fresno,

Not sure if it would meet your needs for sound quality, but I use a XITEL Pro HiFi-Link(which I believe has been replaced by a newer model), I also think a German company named Behringer makes something similar. It's a small box that runs from your USB port and outputs to your receiver via optical, digital coax or RCA cables. When I bought mine a few years ago it was about $75 and came with 30' cables(optical, coax and RCA). Works great for MP3's, as for higher quality formats I couldn't tell you.

[fresno1232001]

I don't know what DLNA is. I am just trying to figure out how to get hi-res audio tracks I have downloaded into my computer out to my av center in my great room. It is 96 kHz, 24 bit word length material. Someone here has suggested to me that a Linksus WRT 45 operating on G or N channels would work for transmitting the audio only from my computer and that a Slingbox Pro would be needed to transmit the video. (Aix Records DVD-As are hi res audio and standard def video).
I just looked at the Niveus media site again. Their media servers can hold the hi rez audio and hi def video. I sent them an email asking if the servers are full bore computers allowing one to surf the net. They come with a wireless keyboard and mouse, so maybe so. If so, then one of those might be better to buy than a new PC, which I am due for. Suggest everyone take a look at www.niveusmedia.com. They are interesting.
Very interesting about how an ethernet jack on a receiver can theoretically allow one to use a router to wirelessly feed signals from one's computer to the receiver. Are you reading this Jeff? I think this is going to be a very hot topic very soon, as physical disks disappear. Are you thinking media servers in great rooms are going to be big and so we won't have to be sending signals from our computers to a receiver wirelessly? Just note that Mark Waldrep's www.itrax.com site is now up and running, selling DVD-A tracks at ~$2 per track. Ask yourself how we are going to get those into your receiver. We can download them onto our computers and then what? It's real tricky to try to burn them to a disk. The authoring software from Minnetonka e.g., only can handle 44 kHz, not the 96 kHz of the DVD-A standard, so burning them onto a DVD-A disk and carrying that out to our great room and playing it in a DVD-A player is sort of out as a possibility. So then what? Wirelessly transmit the signals from computer to AVR receiver? How? What does the 972 need to permit that? An alternative to downloading Itrax tracks onto our computer is to buy something like the Niveus Media Server (which is quiet as it doesn't use fans for cooling) and then feed from that into the 972. The cheapest Niveus server, the Ranier, has gold-plated analog outputs for audio, not HDMI outputs apparently. I just pointed out to them in an email that all the top gun new receivers like the 972 have 4 HDMI inputs. Analog connections work fine for hi res audio, but I just wonder why they dont use HDMI outputs too.
QUOTE=facesnorth;12560118]You would not need DLNA, per se, only an ethernet jack. However, it's absense in the 972 is one of the reasons I chose not to wait for it. If it did have an ethernet jack, you could hypothetically attach a wireless bridge which should communicate with your PC via a router.[/QUOTE]

[glennQNYC]

I am just trying to figure out how to get hi-res audio tracks I have downloaded into my computer out to my av center in my great room. It is 96 kHz, 24 bit word length material. ... We can download them onto our computers and then what? ... Wirelessly transmit the signals from computer to AVR receiver?

The conventional way of getting 'full size' digital files out of a computer is with a cable. If I'm looking for HiFi, and to appreciate the difference in 96 kHz material, I'm definitely not thinking wireless.

glennQ

[fresno1232001]

A million thanks, Glenn, for actually speaking in English re this issue of getting downloaded Itrax tracks from my computer to my AVR receiver. Don't you dare let anyone know who you really are or where you live! It is an unpardonable sin to use comprehensible English when discussing routers and Linksys and slingbox Pro equipment and how one would do this. I have before me today the Circuit City two-page Sunday newspaper advertising booklet showing such equipment. Not one word, not one hint, no matter how vague, regarding what this equipment can do. NOT A HINT!!!! NOT A HINT! It is voodoo, it is a mystery, only for the annointed and the initiated. It is a deep, dark secret, to be guarded at all costs, sort of like the existence of Planned Parenthood. They show, without telling what it is, a Buffalo Link Station Live 500 GB Multimedia Storage Server. That sort of sounds like something I might need to download Itrax tracks into. I looked it up on the web and you find nothing by posts by absolutely IRATE buyers. Two hour holds on the phone to get to useless tech advice.
They show a Sling personal broadcaster for AV devices. Sure sounds like what I might need. Not ONE WORD about what it can do or how you would set it up or what else you need to buy to get stuff from your computer to your receiver. NOT ONE WORD. Forture magazine says this week that CCs stock price has fallen 70% in 6 months. GEE WHAT A SURPRISE! To learn about this stuff you are supposed to ask around in the locker room at your country club when playing golf. Anyone else can go to hell. We don't want or need your money. Only Planned Parenthood is a more carefully guarded, insider, secret. You know those high school girls with straight noses and flawless complexions who are smiling all the time, the one's bound for Stanford who live in 20,000 sqare foot homes with tailored yards? They know about Planned Parenthood, and their homes can send Itrax tracks from the computers to the AVR receivers. Those two bodies of information are carefully guarded!!
Thank you for telling me such tracks (I mean "files", of course) are conventionally sent via a cable. Would it be a huge crime if I asked you what kind of cable? What kind of an outlet on the back of a computer would it plug into and is there a place on the back of, say, the Sherwood Newcastle 972, to plug the other end into? I don't mind going at this like it's pulling teeth. I have years and years to spend on this issue. Jeff is going to read this and jump in and clear all this up with some really clear information right away. He wants the 972 to succeed, so he is going to come right in here and tell us what cable to use from our computer to the 972, and I mean the brand of cable and which output on the back of our computer and which input on the back of the 972. The disk is dying and we are all going to be downloading hi rez music from www.itrax.com onto our 500 GB or 1 TB harddrives as well as hi-def movies with their Dolby True HD and DTS HD Master Audio audio tracks. That being the case, the 972 is going to modified before it ships to accept the "cable" we will be using to get this into our 972, but he is going to come on here in the next few days and tell us exactly how this will work. I just know it, because this information is critical to the success of the 972 and it is Jeff's job to supply us with this information. He know that if Sherwood-Newcastle does not address this issue with crystal clear information for consumers that its competition will.
The conventional way of getting 'full size' digital files out of a computer is with a cable. If I'm looking for HiFi, and to appreciate the difference in 96 kHz material, I'm definitely not thinking wireless.

glennQ

[glennQNYC]

Thank you for telling me such tracks (I mean "files", of course) are conventionally sent via a cable. Would it be a huge crime if I asked you what kind of cable? What kind of an outlet on the back of a computer would it plug into and is there a place on the back of, say, the Sherwood Newcastle 972, to plug the other end into?

Sure Fresno.... It's just that the practice of how to monitor 24/96 (or even 192 kHz) files on a PC has easily been within reach of anyone even mildly involved in pro audio for years...

There are plenty of options as to how you can get a digital audio output... A Digidesign (of ProTools fame) "Mbox 2 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/397296-REG/Digidesign_9900_17246_00_Mbox_2.html)" has a pretty nice price/performance ratio and would make a good example.

So to spell it out for you... Use a USB cable from your PC to the Mbox 2 (for example)... Then use a standard coaxial digital cable (you remember those, right?) from the Mbox's S/PDIF output into a coaxial digital input on the back of your receiver.
Merry Christmas.

glennQ

[fresno1232001]

Many, many thanks, Glenn. You ARE the man. Whoa. Imagine, this told to me in English! Despite your belief that "how to monitor 24/96 (or even 192) kHz files on a PC has easily been with reach", etc., it has not been within my reach because I (1) have never had a need to do it and (2) I almost surely have a sub-normal IQ. I don't know if I have been even mildly involved with pro audio. I don't know what that means. Do you think I am a professional installer? Is this a site for professional installers? Is so, I should not be on here. They're called "CE's"- Custom Installers. I am not one. So if we asked a thousand people on the street how they would do this, most of them would tell us what you have told me here. Oh, ok. Well, anyhow, I am deeply grateful for the information. FOR SURE you would never learn it by reading a CC Sunday ad section. I suspect A LOT of people are going to want to know how to do this if the physical disk is disappearing and we are all going to be downloading 24/96 5.1 channel music, and hi def video with Dolby True HD and DTS HD Master Audio tracks onto our hard drives and then sending them out to our great rooms. I guess most people know all about how to do this. I am honestly surprised.
Do I remember a standard coaxial digital cable? No, I don't. Not a bit. Digital? All I remember are analog cables with an RCA plug on either end. But, now that I know what I need, I am sure I can buy them. Money talks, they say.
Do most current receivers have a coaxial digital input on the back of them? Just asking. Are you sure the Sherwood-Newcastle 972 will have one? I am asking.
One more thing, if one downloads onto his computer Itrax 5.1 channel 24/96 audio tracks AND the standard def video that comes with them, can a the set-up you describe deliver both the audio and the video to one's receiver? The bandwidth of this set-up is sufficient for the video? If so, I may well go this route. I guess I can cleverly hide the cable running from my computer room out to my avr receiver in my great room somehow.
The alternative to running a cable using the set-up you describe seems to be to buy a Niveus Media Server for one's great room at this point. You run a high speed internet connection into it, store music and video downloads on its 500 gig or 1 Tb hard drive, and run a cable from it into your receiver. These Niveus servers do not have fans but rely on huge finned heat sinks on their sides, so they can be used in your av room without making noise. See www.niveusmedia.com. They are not cheap- $3400 for a basic model with, at most, a 500 gig hard drive. You can get an HP Media computer with a 1 TB hard drive and a BlueRay burner for $3610, so it seems to me that you are getting more with the HP computer. I just do not understand the Niveus Media Servers well enough at this point to be sure about that.
But again, I am truly grateful to you for the information. I guess I have lived a sheltered life.
Sure Fresno.... It's just that the practice of how to monitor 24/96 (or even 192 kHz) files on a PC has easily been within reach of anyone even mildly involved in pro audio for years...

There are plenty of options as to how you can get a digital audio output... A Digidesign (of ProTools fame) "Mbox 2 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/397296-REG/Digidesign_9900_17246_00_Mbox_2.html)" has a pretty nice price/performance ratio and would make a good example.

So to spell it out for you... Use a USB cable from your PC to the Mbox 2 (for example)... Then use a standard coaxial digital cable (you remember those, right?) from the Mbox's S/PDIF output into a coaxial digital input on the back of your receiver.
Merry Christmas.

glennQ

[jotronic]

So, has anyone listened to or purchased a 772/872 yet. Are either of these in any showrooms yet? I listened to a 672 the other day and put in my order for an 872 which, according to my dealer, told me it is scheduled for a January delivery but the exact ship date is unclear as of yet.