Jeff- I am looking at the Samsung LNT-5271F TV. It is fantastic in PQ. It seems to be a red-hot seller. ~$2700 at Amazon. 1080P. Just fantastic. It comes in a black shiney case. I was staring at it at CC last Fri. night. Then i went in and stared at the Onkyo 805 receiver in black. Those would seem to look good together and I wonder if you have any plans to offer the 972 in black? I would prefer it in black, I think, but more importantly for S-N, other people might too and silver only could cost you some sales. I love your blue display and your famous quality and sound quality reputation. To have it available in black would be one more reason for me to buy the 972. How hard can it be to make that face-plate and knobs in black? Since most receivers on the market come in black, the technology to do that can't be a big secret.
Editing here- Since Samsung LCDs are now so popular, and since they only come in shiney black cases, I think their ascendancy may be a further reason for S-N to offer its receivers in black to match them- Fresno

Any new updates from our man on the inside?

This question is for Jeff or anyone who knows. I bought a R-871 and was disappointed when it didn't decode the audio from the HDMI connection on the receiver. I was wondering if there will be a firmware update for it soon to decode audio from the HDMI connection. Hopefully it will also decode the new audio formats associated with HD DVD and Blu-Ray as well. Thanks!

I can take a guess. The Sherwood site's description of the R-871 indicates that the HDMI inputs switch video only. The user manual would seem to confirm that, as it only addresses using HDMI for video switching. As a result, I would not expect it to be upgradeable to support audio via HDMI - either multichannel PCM or raw bitstreams of the new audio formats (although the latter case would likely not be possible even if it did support audio via HDMI, as it uses an older DSP chip that I don't believe is capable of handling those formats).

Are you saying that it's considered a 'warm' receiver?

Like any properly designed amplifier/receiver, it is neutral. The point of it is to take the input signal and multiply it by some amount, not to add or subtract things.

Like any properly designed amplifier/receiver, it is neutral. The point of it is to take the input signal and multiply it by some amount, not to add or subtract things.

Well, that's always the goal but I've yet to come across a receiver/amp that isn't either warm, slightly warm, slightly bright or bright. If the SN is truly neutral, or even slightly bright then I'm a happy man. I'm currently using a Yamaha to drive my Klipsch so clearly I can live with that type of combo, even though I'm looking to go with a neutral/warmer amp.

If it's slightly warm then I'm thrilled and the 972 is now on top of my list, ahead of the Denon 3808. After using the Yamaha all these years I've decided I no longer like the really bright amp/Klipsch combo.

Thanks for the reply.

Are there any authorized SN internet dealers? There are no B&M stores in CT which carry SN, knocking it out as an option if the only authorized dealers are B&M stores.

The only authorized internet dealer that I've heard of is Axiom.

The only authorized internet dealer that I've heard of is Axiom.

But for some reason they don't seem to have any of the new models (although I swear they used to sell the 672)?

The only authorized internet dealer that I've heard of is Axiom.
But for some reason they don't seem to have any of the new models (although I swear they used to sell the 672)?
They did indeed.

Looks like Jeff has evaporated. I hope he comes back with good news and hopefully we won't have to wait 'til March. Denon 3808 and Onkyo 875 prices are dropping fast. If they price the 972 at $1500 and ship in March, not sure that many of us will wait...

Looks like I made the right choice going with the Onkyo back in August. I would not have waited until 2008.

Looks like Jeff has evaporated. I hope he comes back with good news and hopefully we won't have to wait 'til March. Denon 3808 and Onkyo 875 prices are dropping fast. If they price the 972 at $1500 and ship in March, not sure that many of us will wait...
In late June, Jeff said the MSRPs of 872 & 972 would be increased.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=10912791&postcount=221

The first post of this thread should be edited by a moderator.

Well, if this is the case, the probablility of getting the Denon 3808 has greatly increased. On top of it all, the Denon has networking capabilities. One could debate that the SN's sound better but quite frankly most of us would be happy with either.

Jeff? Can you comment? Is the MSRP still gonna be $1800?

I rarely really laugh at something I see here on my computer, but to say that a man has apparently evaporated made me laugh just now. What an image it conjures up.
Looks like Jeff has evaporated. I hope he comes back with good news and hopefully we won't have to wait 'til March. Denon 3808 and Onkyo 875 prices are dropping fast. If they price the 972 at $1500 and ship in March, not sure that many of us will wait...

It's like SN is saying, "Please don't buy our stuff."

If you had asked me 6 months ago what receiver I wanted, 972 would have been the answer.

It's like SN is saying, "Please don't buy our stuff."

If you had asked me 6 months ago what receiver I wanted, 972 would have been the answer.

+1

Guys do any of you know if the R-872 will allow you to overlay PLIIx on 5.1 AND 7.1 PCM.

I can't remember... will this receiver have wifi like the Denon receivers? I've been researching other receivers d/t the delays in the 972 coming to market. The two upper Onkyos are interesting... but they seem to have lots of bugs. The Denon's seem to be well made, but their VP is old news. The 972 has tons of potential, but it's proposed asking price is steep given the discounting going on with the competition. If the 972 has wifi and properly uses the Reon chip and markets the Trinnov processor, it may still be the best choice.

S/N... PLEASE IMPLEMENT NETWORKING CAPABILITY!!!!!!!

I pulled the trigger on a 3808ci a few months ago, and have not regreted it one bit. The ability to switch HDMI is wonderful. I sold my P-965, which was a very nice piece, and my Parasound amps. Going to an all-in-one AVR caused NO loss in sound quality or performance. I have Parasound Studio/100's, so it's not like I'm running Bose cubes. And now, less space, less heat= GOOD! The multiEQ is superior to the SNAP in every respect.

The remote is just as crappy, maybe crappier, than the P-965. Granted, the P-965 had a nice PHYSICAL remote, but the commands sucked, and the autosensor never did work right (i.e.- pushed everything to Dolby EX and had to be forced back). That drove me nuts.

My only regret was that I did not go to the 4808ci, because I now have a 50" plasma behind my now-electric screen. The dual HDMI output would have been nice, but I used a HD Tivo as a second source along with Crapcast HD DVR. It's a FANTASTIC set-up. Let me know if someone wants to trade Denons and I'l throw in a few bucks as well ;)

I waited as long as I could from S-N, based on CES, and there's still no going forward. I appreciated their gear, but the delays were a dealbreaker.

I still may buckup and buy the 4808 ci ;)

Well, here it is: The R-972 WILL be released in March AND will be 1799$. But it will inlcude the Trinnov Optimizer. Maybe it will be worth the wait... No news on networking capabilities though...

So the questions remains: Wait 'til March for a receiver that will have the best room EQ or go ahead with the Denon 3808ci or the Onkyo 875... What about Rotel? Will they have a competing product by March???

I have my doubts about networking but God I hope it is included. If this AVR has a correctly used REON processor and the Trinnov Optimizer and networking capabilities, it would be well worth the full $1800 as it's feature set would take the best features of it's competitors, as well as something new and unique, and put it all in one package. If it isn't capable of networking and/or the REON processor isn't used to it's potential, then I'm affraid these units won't move. To command a premium price requires a premium product. S/N... PLEASE DELIVER US THE GOODS!!!!!

"Wait 'til March for a receiver that will have the best room EQ"

Possibly true, but only an assumption.

I remember all the rave professional reviews of Audyssey, whereas when it got into consumers' hands the results were/are hit-and-miss.

I remember all the rave professional reviews of Audyssey, whereas when it got into consumers' hands the results were/are hit-and-miss.

Equalization can only do so much. Professionals are more likely to have treated rooms where equalization is much more helpful than it would be otherwise.

Onkyo recently released a firmware update for the 875/905 and the pre-pros. It corrects most of the bugs, including all of the major complaints such as color alteration. Looks like the Reon has been fully and correctly implemented at this point, at least as much as the XA2.

Not much out of Jeff lately so I have been losing my enthusiasm over the 972. I was not planning on picking up my AVR for a couple of months anyway, so there is some hope left for me. But I am rapidly deciding on the 905.

Trinnov still holds quite a bit of appeal. But the 905 has ethernet, HD radio, a massive torroidal transformer, and seperate A/V power supplies. If the 972 could add these, along with support for FLAC, and sell for under $1500 shipped (retail), like the 905 does, then I would hold out for it.

Not trying to flame but I'm not sure why a lack of input from Jeff should lessen enthusiasm for this receiver. We already know that it's a very promising piece of AV equipment.

Not trying to flame but I'm not sure why a lack of input from Jeff should lessen enthusiasm for this receiver. We already know that it's a very promising piece of AV equipment.

I was thinking the same thing.

glennQ

Onkyo recently released a firmware update for the 875/905 and the pre-pros. It corrects most of the bugs, including all of the major complaints such as color alteration. Looks like the Reon has been fully and correctly implemented at this point, at least as much as the XA2.

Trinnov still holds quite a bit of appeal. But the 905 has ethernet, HD radio, a massive torroidal transformer, and seperate A/V power supplies. If the 972 could add these, along with support for FLAC, and sell for under $1500 shipped (retail), like the 905 does, then I would hold out for it.

That's interesting about the 905. If all the major bugs (and most of them in general) have been fixed, and the 972 includes the extras in the 905 you pointed out, then the only real distinguishing difference between the 905 and 972 is their choices in EQ. If the 972 doesn't have all of those extras, then the 972 is fighting an upghill battle. If the 972 is lacking several of those features, then I'm afraid it may be in trouble. I really like the feature set in the 972 and I've been excited about it since CES '07, but the lower cost and excellent feature set in the 905 are becoming more and more attractive.

My plan is to wait 'til April (unless I get ahead in my HT construction). If by then the SN is still 1700-1800 street, the 875, 905 and 3808 will look even more attractive... One audition at the dealer might change everything though...

Early last week, the Sherwood Newcastle R-972 was named one of the recipients of the CES 2008 Innovations award. As part of the entry process I needed to describe why the 972 deserved the award. Please find that text below.

Jeff

The Sherwood Newcastle R-972 deserves the award for its novel user and installer- friendly features; its inclusion of the Trinnov Optimizer Room EQ; and for innovative use of the internet to enhance versatility.

With our 2.4 MHz RF remote control and internal circuitry to generate appropriate IR output, the entire system can be operated from anywhere within the home.

To enhance reliability, the R-972 contains a lockable “installer memory.” The consumer can change any operating parameters. Should the system fail to operate, power cycling the R-972 automatically re-loads the installer settings. This usually restores normal operation.

The R-972 marks the debut of Trinnov’s $13,000 stand-alone digital room-correction system inside an AVR. The Trinnov Optimizer uses an Acoustic Probe with four mic-capsules to measure speaker performance and room location in 3 dimensions, then uses advanced digital filtering techniques to compensate for acoustic defects in the speakers and their room interaction. To restore the original acoustic wave-front, the Optimizer can re-position the acoustic centers of each channel to conform with the ITU standard for surround music, raise or lower an out-of-plane channel, or even shift the entire perspective. The result is virtually perfect imaging.

Trinnov users can write stored performance data to the R-972’s USB jack, sign on to our website, load the stored data and print before-and-after graphs of their system. New target curves will be offered on the web so users can match the sound of their system to their playback material.

Jeff, good to hear from you again.

Has the R-872 been released?
You had told me mid-October.
(And R-772 was for mid-Sept.)

Axiom Audio (authorized) had only the R-672, and then they pulled it.
Will they be getting the R-872 any time soon?

Are there any other authorized online dealers?

Congrats Jeff-very impressive.

Yes Jeff great to hear, how about the R-872? Als any info on pricing would be helpful too.

Jeff-

There is no SN dealer in CT. How do I get an R-972? Still a March release? Thanks!

Robert,

You are about 30 miles from us in MA. I'm sure we'll be bringing one in when available.

Bob

Robert,

You are about 30 miles from us in MA. I'm sure we'll be bringing one in when available.

Bob

I'm in MA. Where are you located? Are you a custom installer or do you have a shop? I'm very interested in the 972 but have never heard a SN product in person. I'd like to do that before buying. Thanks!

Jeff... first off congrats!

S/N needs the good pub on the R-972 given it's delay. When I saw your post, I had to go back and check the date. It's interesting that the R-972 is getting the innovation award at CES '08 given it was first announced and shown at CES '07 :rolleyes:. Better late than never... and the tidbits on the Trinnov Optimizer are very exciting.

A couple quick questions:

1. Please elaborate on the internet connectivity. Will the R-972 be able to connect with ones main computer to act as a media server?

2. Will the R-972 be able to tune HD radio?

3. What will the output of the amp officially be listed?

4. Will the power supply of the audio and video be separate?

Thanks and I hope to get answers. We certainly appreciate you input on this thread. It is one of the things that sets S/N apart from the competition.

BobL-

You should contact SN. When I did a 100 mile search for a dealer from my Zip Code, the only dealers were in NY; your store did not appear.

They shouldn't give awards to stuff that's not available.

They shouldn't give awards to stuff that's not available.

Agreed.

I'm in MA. Where are you located? Are you a custom installer or do you have a shop? I'm very interested in the 972 but have never heard a SN product in person. I'd like to do that before buying. Thanks!

We are custom installers in Feeding Hills, Ma (near Springfield if you are from the Eastern part of the state). We are fnishing up a showroom and should be done in a couple of months. If you want a demo of a piece we can certainly arrange it.

We are probably not on SN dealer list since we buy through distribution and not direct. There are a LOT of dealers that buy through distrbution. You can call local shops and see if any local dealer use SN. I'll contact Jeff and see if they will list non-direct dealers which feature their products.

Bob

Jeff- I wish you would make everything black for me, wrt to the 972, that is. The Samsung LCDs are taking the world by storm, and they don't come in silver. I really think that fact alone should cause you all to consider a black 972.
Congrats Jeff-very impressive.

Jeff- I wish you would make everything black for me, wrt to the 972, that is. The Samsung LCDs are taking the world by storm, and they don't come in silver. I really think that fact alone should cause you all to consider a black 972.I haven't read this thread, but I assume they will.

It would be market suicide not to offer a version in black. The black Onkyos are outselling the silver versions by more than 4 to 1.

Onkyo recently released a firmware update for the 875/905 and the pre-pros. It corrects most of the bugs, including all of the major complaints such as color alteration. Looks like the Reon has been fully and correctly implemented at this point, at least as much as the XA2.

Not much out of Jeff lately so I have been losing my enthusiasm over the 972. I was not planning on picking up my AVR for a couple of months anyway, so there is some hope left for me. But I am rapidly deciding on the 905.

Trinnov still holds quite a bit of appeal. But the 905 has ethernet, HD radio, a massive torroidal transformer, and seperate A/V power supplies. If the 972 could add these, along with support for FLAC, and sell for under $1500 shipped (retail), like the 905 does, then I would hold out for it.The Onkyo firmware update addresses the video output issues, but it still doesn't address the audio delay / latency issue.

The 905 also runs exceptionally hot. Heat is the killer of electronic components. I also would almost guarantee that the R-972 will have better sound quality than the 905.

Is there a sherwood link for the 972?

No, the R-972 isn't on SN's web site yet.

We are custom installers in Feeding Hills, Ma (near Springfield if you are from the Eastern part of the state). We are fnishing up a showroom and should be done in a couple of months. If you want a demo of a piece we can certainly arrange it.

We are probably not on SN dealer list since we buy through distribution and not direct. There are a LOT of dealers that buy through distrbution. You can call local shops and see if any local dealer use SN. I'll contact Jeff and see if they will list non-direct dealers which feature their products.

Bob

Okay, that's good to know. When the time comes I'll be in touch. I'm still a few months away from buying anyway so I don't mind the wait for the 972.

"Any hope for a 972 in black?"

IIRC from earlier in the thread, that's the *only* hope :)

Noah:

Yes. R-972 will be available in black.

Jeff

Great news, Jeff. Many thanks. You'll sell loads more 972's if you offer them in black as well as silver. A black receiver goes with the black-cased Sammy LCDs. Also, the Sammys have a blue light in the base, visible if you use the base and don't wall mount them. The 972 will have at least one blue button on it, I believe, and a blue read-out. So a black 972 will really look good with, say, a Samsung LNT 5271F flat panel. What a combination!
Someone above said the 905 has a massive toroidal transformer. Doesn't the 972 have that too? I thought it did.
Here is a thought: Since Onkyo now seems to have the Reon processor programmed right, why does not S-N just buy a (late model- properly programmed) 905 and download the software out of its Reon and install it in your Reon processor? Why try to re-invent the wheel? If you want to add features, you could do so, but at least the Onkyo Reon seems now to have the grey-level problem solved.

Noah:

Yes. R-972 will be available in black.

Jeff

Jeff- How deep will the 972 be from front to back? More importantly for me, how far is it from the front edge of the front feet to the back of anything on the back of it- I.e. clips, connectors, speaker connectors. I recall from the CES introduction of it that it is ~18" deep overall, but fractions of an inch will be significant for me if I try to put a 972 on the bottom shelf of my Bello AVS-422T stand. That stand has a big, round pier in the MIDDLE, in the back, side to side.

The stand is essentially a three-legged affair, two in the front and that pier in the back located in the middle, side to side. If the stand had four legs, one at each corner, you could put a very deep receiver indeed on the bottom, deepest shelf, but with the pier in the middle, you are blocked by it depth-wise. The pier has a big port in it for running cables into, but if the back of a receiver butts right up against it, things can still get tight cable-wise since the pier is pretty wide and the port it in is not nearly as wide. Also, I believe the stand's two lower tempered glass shelves are rated for 50 lbs. (The top shelf is rated for much more weight since people will set big-screens on it). I believe the 972 will be ~52 lbs, yes? I'd be willing the chance 52 lbs on that bottom glass, especially since it would be easy to place carefully-sized wood blocks under the glass to add support to it.

If the fit is just too tight for the cables in the back around that pier, and if the danger is too great wrt to the bottom glass shelf breaking with 52 lbs. on it, I thought of a way around both. Take the bottom glass shelf OUT and put four carefully-sized wooden cubes on the FLOOR upon which to rest the four feet of the 972. These could be placed front to back so that the receiver sits a little farther forward than it would if the front feet were right out at the front of the glass shelf, giving a little more clearance for cables back there at that pier. And these wooden cubes can be just tall enough that the bottom of the receiver clears the steel cross-members running left to right at the bottom of the stand. Since I have tile, I'll put felt on the bottom surfaces of the cubes to protect my tile.

Anyone contending with these Bello stands can use this solution. This style of Bello stands- the three legged ones, comes in 3 different sizes in terms of height and width but the deepest of them is only 1/2" deeper than mine and all have a 50 lb. weight rating on their two lower shelves. See this stand by searching for Bello AVS-422T and seeing the "product picture gallery". Of the three pix, see the one with nothing sitting on the stand to see how that rear pier is positioned. Note that the two lower shelves slide into notches cut into the pier for their rear support. They slide into clips on the inside edges of the two front legs for their two forward supports.

Editing here, I just thought of a further refinement of the "wooden cube" solution. If you like the look of the bottom glass shelf, and I do, and you want to keep it, you could do this: Put two carefully sized cubes under the glass back where the two rear feet of the 972 will be, coming right up against the lower surface of the glass, adding to its weight-bearing potential. Then, to buy an inch or so of extra depth, put two cubes out right in front of the front edge of the bottom glass shelf as far apart as the front feet of the 972 are. These cubes could be made so that for each cube, their top surfaces have two different heights: the lower, rear-most height would come up just under the glass. The taller, forward-most height of each of these two cubes would be exactly the height of the top surface of the lower glass shelf. That way, you could literally place the two front feet of the 972 so that they are half way on the cube and half way on the glass. You have now bought some extra depth front to back and you have strengthened the bottom glass shelf by putting four wooden cubes under it to take the greater-than-50 lbs. weight of the 972.

The whole issue with depth here has to do with the rear pier. It's pretty wide, and it has a vertical port it it, but if the 972 is right up against the pier, even with some wires going into that port, you still might be stressing cables on either side of the port by bending them to go around the sides of the pier or bending them to go into the port. Pull the receiver forward a little and now you are stressing cables less to do either one of those. And, as I say, my wooden cube scheme re-inforces the weight-bearing potential of the bottom glass shelf, rated at 50 lbs.

Editing here- I measured the lower glass shelf of the Bello stand last night. It is very close to 17 3/4" deep BUT it slides into the notch in the pier in the back, so that reduces its real depth to ~17". A shelf is only as deep as its most shallow point, if you are going to mount something relatively wide on it, like the 972. Apparently Bello never thought of receivers being 18" deep.

BTW, my Bello AVS-422T stand is the tallest of the three "3-legged" stands, with the top shelf being 24 1/2" off the floor. The other two are 21 1/2" tall and 19 3/4" tall. For some reason, as they get wider, they get lower. Mine is 41 1/2" wide, and the others are 52" wide and 63" wide, respectively. Bello gives a recommendation for each wrt screen size of big screens they can hold, but those seem to assume that the display is as wide at its base as the case is wide. Now, many big screens are coming with a "stem" at the bottom of the screen mounted on a base which is narrower than the case of the set proper. This allows one to place the set on a table or stand like these Bellos much narrower than the main case of the display. My Bello at 41 1/2" wide can easily accomodate a Samsung whose case is 54" wide, but whose support stand or base is only maybe 32" wide. Were I to place a 56" JVC rear projection LCD on it whose base is also about 56" wide, I'd have a significant portion of the base unsupported at the sides.

In regard to heat generated by some receivers, see the "Onkyo is Junk" thread here in amps, receivers and processors. It discusses stands and heat issues. These Bellos are open on the back, sides and front. Don't know if the 972 will run as hot as the Onkyos.

Overall, I really like my Bello stand. It looks great, and reflects good, modern Italian design. Strong and stable, it says "quality". I recommend the Bello stands. A young woman who was recently a guest in my home commented favorably on it.


Noah:

Yes. R-972 will be available in black.

Jeff

Geez, you guys are worrying about colors and dimensions? How about the important stuff like how well does it work and when can I buy one? Kinda reminds me of when I used to teach skiing and I'd see women in the store buying skis to go with their outfits -- who cares if it's a beginner's ski or an expert's racing ski? ;)

Me -- my gear is in a closet and the shelves are adjustable. I buy it for how it works, not how it looks. ;)

Fresno,

...but fractions of an inch will be significant for me if I try to put a 972 on the bottom shelf of my Bello AVS-422T rack.

I don't know what you expect from Jeff. He's not building a custom receiver for you and your stand. I'm sure SN will build what makes the most sense for them and works for as many installations as possible.

Just because someone like catapult disagrees with you doesn't make him an idiot.

Where did I ask Jeff to custom build a receiver for me and my rack? I'm just trying to get an idea if the 972 might fit my rack as is or if I will have to make the mods I have outlined. I think you and catapult should be running mates.
Fresno,



I don't know what you expect from Jeff. He's not building a custom receiver for you and your stand. I'm sure SN will build what makes the most sense for them and works for as many installations as possible.

Just because someone like catapult disagrees with you doesn't make him an idiot.

Where did I ask Jeff to custom build a receiver for me and my rack? I'm just trying to get an idea if the 972 might fit my rack as is or if I will have to make the mods I have outlined. I think you and catapult should be running mates.

I know you didn't literally ask for a custom built receiver, and I'm not trying to start a war of words.

A quick scan of this thread shows that you've had a number of posts asking for Jeff to do things that would specifically benefit or appeal to you (headphone jack, Reon, black color). I'm not saying these are bad things, especially the Reon, I'm only pointing it out to show you where I'm coming from.

BTW, nice to see that parting shot about 'running mates'. Good to know you take criticism well.

Cleaned up the thread.

Guys, keep things civil.

Kyser

Where did I ask Jeff to custom build a receiver for me and my rack? I'm just trying to get an idea if the 972 might fit my rack as is or if I will have to make the mods I have outlined. I think you and catapult should be running mates.


Query: do you really like Samsung LCD's mated with Bello racks? Tough to tell from your posts.

Just wondering!

Gents:

The R-972 will be built on the same chassis as our current R-965 receiver. Full dimensions are available on our website.

Jeff

• Dimensions(WHD) | 440 196 450 mm (17-3/8 7-3/4 17-3/4 inches)

Jeff,

Please tell us, is the 872 still on schedule for Dec., or is it already available?

My Samsung LNT-5271F (current plan) will be mated with (sit on) my Bello stand. My stand is the silver color (grey really) but apparently they now come in black as well. I've never seen one in black. Black might or might not be a little severe with white walls. Either color stand will look good with the piano black Sammy cases (I think). As I say above, the top shelf of my Bello is 24 1/2" off the floor. My current, black Sony Trinitron sits on it and that works fine, so I think the Sammy will be ok there too. BUT I wear bifocals. I'm sitting across a room 16' 1/2" wide. If my Bello were any lower, I'd have to hold my head up all the time to avoid looking through the bifocal lenses, not a good deal at all. For that reason, the other two three-legged Bellos of this design would not work for me, as they are 21 1/2" tall and 19 3/4" tall.

If you don't wear bifocals, those stands could work too. Just be aware of their height differences before you buy one and be sure a big-screen works for you at their heights. They are all great-looking stands, and very strong and stable.

BTW I misplaced a screwdriver that came with my Bello, I called the importer in New Jersey listed on the instruction sheet, and they fired out a replacement right away.

I'll just note here that with a 17 3/4' depth overall for the 972, even with 3/4" hanging over the front of the lower shelf forward from the receiver's front two feet, that will put the back of it right up against the "pier" in the back of my Bello, so I may have to get into the wooden cube idea I outlined above to buy a little space at the back. The bottom shelf in my Bello is 17" from the front edge to the pier at the back. Now that we know the 972 is 17 3/4" deep, and thanks for that information, I'd like to know how far back the front edges of the front feet of the 972 are from the front of the receiver.

Not so incidentally, the back of a 972 is not homogeneous, of course, in terms of what inputs and outputs, etc., are where. Even if it protrudes right back to the center pier, moving it left or right may solve the problem of positioning it relative to the pier so as to solve the cabel stressing issue. I won't know till I see one, or see a good photo of the back of one.

And further BTW, Jeff has yet to squawk about my suggesting they add the Reon processor to the 972, that they offer it in black, or that they place the headphone jack outside the door. They have now implemented two out of three. Spooky who's on here, isn't it? It's a reminder to keep your doors locked at all times, folks.


Query: do you really like Samsung LCD's mated with Bello racks? Tough to tell from your posts.

Just wondering!

As for bi-focals (I have variflex) and screen height: I have a big RP in my bedroom. Nothing short of ceiling mount would solve the laying in bed vs. height issue. So rather than drive myself around the block...I bought glasses - single vision, cheap frames just for watching. $150, simple fix, perfect image.

Query: do you really like Samsung LCD's mated with Bello racks? Tough to tell from your posts.

Just wondering!

Maybe someone should start a thread about them in a more appropriate forum so people looking for info on the upcoming Sherwood-Newcastle receivers wouldn't have to wade through this dribble.

Maybe someone should start a thread about them in a more appropriate forum so people looking for info on the upcoming Sherwood-Newcastle receivers wouldn't have to wade through this dribble.

I guess you missed my sarcasm :O

Jeff- How deep...

Please use paragraphs and other spacings. I found it impossible to read what you wrote, even though I wanted to read it.

Just a friendly note.

Geez, you guys are worrying about colors and dimensions? How about the important stuff like how well does it work and when can I buy one? Kinda reminds me of when I used to teach skiing and I'd see women in the store buying skis to go with their outfits -- who cares if it's a beginner's ski or an expert's racing ski? ;)

Me -- my gear is in a closet and the shelves are adjustable. I buy it for how it works, not how it looks. ;)

Since you do not care how it looks, how it fits on stands, etc., then it is stupid for anyone to care.

Colors and dimensions are important to people who can see their receiver. The "how well it works and when can I buy one" were already asked and answered, so asking them again is simply redundant.

I just edited the two lengthy posts re. Bello stands and how they can be made to work with the 972 to break them into paragraphs.

Please use paragraphs and other spacings. I found it impossible to read what you wrote, even though I wanted to read it.

Just a friendly note.

Jeff... first off congrats!

A couple quick questions:

1. Please elaborate on the internet connectivity. Will the R-972 be able to connect with ones main computer to act as a media server?

2. Will the R-972 be able to tune HD radio?

3. What will the output of the amp officially be listed?

4. Will the power supply of the audio and video be separate?

Thanks and I hope to get answers. We certainly appreciate you input on this thread. It is one of the things that sets S/N apart from the competition.

BUMP

I guess you missed my sarcasm :O
No, I caught it. I just quoted you because your post kind of summed up to me how far off track this thread has wandered.

I, and I suspect others, subscribed to this thread to follow the release of the upcoming Sherwood-Newcastle receivers. Instead we hear, in agonizing detail, how it might be made to fit in a perticular Bello rack and how it might look with a TV someone might buy......and then we end up discussing bifocals?

It's amusing to witness the degenerating effect that the lack of any real news has on these threads.

I want mine in mauve.

I prefer chartreuse ;).

Fresno,

I hope you don't mind but I have requested the moderator to make your posts a sticky. The universality and timeless nature of your posts makes them a natural candidate to be immortalized as a sticky. Fascinating stuff!

*All the Best*


Jeff- How deep will the 972 be from front to back? More importantly for me, how far is it from the front edge of the front feet to the back of anything on the back of it- I.e. clips, connectors, speaker connectors. I recall from the CES introduction of it that it is ~18" deep overall, but fractions of an inch will be significant for me if I try to put a 972 on the bottom shelf of my Bello AVS-422T stand. That stand has a big, round pier in the MIDDLE, in the back, side to side.

The stand is essentially a three-legged affair, two in the front and that pier in the back located in the middle, side to side. If the stand had four legs, one at each corner, you could put a very deep receiver indeed on the bottom, deepest shelf, but with the pier in the middle, you are blocked by it depth-wise. The pier has a big port in it for running cables into, but if the back of a receiver butts right up against it, things can still get tight cable-wise since the pier is pretty wide and the port it in is not nearly as wide. Also, I believe the stand's two lower tempered glass shelves are rated for 50 lbs. (The top shelf is rated for much more weight since people will set big-screens on it). I believe the 972 will be ~52 lbs, yes? I'd be willing the chance 52 lbs on that bottom glass, especially since it would be easy to place carefully-sized wood blocks under the glass to add support to it.

If the fit is just too tight for the cables in the back around that pier, and if the danger is too great wrt to the bottom glass shelf breaking with 52 lbs. on it, I thought of a way around both. Take the bottom glass shelf OUT and put four carefully-sized wooden cubes on the FLOOR upon which to rest the four feet of the 972. These could be placed front to back so that the receiver sits a little farther forward than it would if the front feet were right out at the front of the glass shelf, giving a little more clearance for cables back there at that pier. And these wooden cubes can be just tall enough that the bottom of the receiver clears the steel cross-members running left to right at the bottom of the stand. Since I have tile, I'll put felt on the bottom surfaces of the cubes to protect my tile.

Anyone contending with these Bello stands can use this solution. This style of Bello stands- the three legged ones, comes in 3 different sizes in terms of height and width but the deepest of them is only 1/2" deeper than mine and all have a 50 lb. weight rating on their two lower shelves. See this stand by searching for Bello AVS-422T and seeing the "product picture gallery". Of the three pix, see the one with nothing sitting on the stand to see how that rear pier is positioned. Note that the two lower shelves slide into notches cut into the pier for their rear support. They slide into clips on the inside edges of the two front legs for their two forward supports.

Editing here, I just thought of a further refinement of the "wooden cube" solution. If you like the look of the bottom glass shelf, and I do, and you want to keep it, you could do this: Put two carefully sized cubes under the glass back where the two rear feet of the 972 will be, coming right up against the lower surface of the glass, adding to its weight-bearing potential. Then, to buy an inch or so of extra depth, put two cubes out right in front of the front edge of the bottom glass shelf as far apart as the front feet of the 972 are. These cubes could be made so that for each cube, their top surfaces have two different heights: the lower, rear-most height would come up just under the glass. The taller, forward-most height of each of these two cubes would be exactly the height of the top surface of the lower glass shelf. That way, you could literally place the two front feet of the 972 so that they are half way on the cube and half way on the glass. You have now bought some extra depth front to back and you have strengthened the bottom glass shelf by putting four wooden cubes under it to take the greater-than-50 lbs. weight of the 972.

The whole issue with depth here has to do with the rear pier. It's pretty wide, and it has a vertical port it it, but if the 972 is right up against the pier, even with some wires going into that port, you still might be stressing cables on either side of the port by bending them to go around the sides of the pier or bending them to go into the port. Pull the receiver forward a little and now you are stressing cables less to do either one of those. And, as I say, my wooden cube scheme re-inforces the weight-bearing potential of the bottom glass shelf, rated at 50 lbs.

Editing here- I measured the lower glass shelf of the Bello stand last night. It is very close to 17 3/4" deep BUT it slides into the notch in the pier in the back, so that reduces its real depth to ~17". A shelf is only as deep as its most shallow point, if you are going to mount something relatively wide on it, like the 972. Apparently Bello never thought of receivers being 18" deep.

BTW, my Bello AVS-422T stand is the tallest of the three "3-legged" stands, with the top shelf being 24 1/2" off the floor. The other two are 21 1/2" tall and 19 3/4" tall. For some reason, as they get wider, they get lower. Mine is 41 1/2" wide, and the others are 52" wide and 63" wide, respectively. Bello gives a recommendation for each wrt screen size of big screens they can hold, but those seem to assume that the display is as wide at its base as the case is wide. Now, many big screens are coming with a "stem" at the bottom of the screen mounted on a base which is narrower than the case of the set proper. This allows one to place the set on a table or stand like these Bellos much narrower than the main case of the display. My Bello at 41 1/2" wide can easily accomodate a Samsung whose case is 54" wide, but whose support stand or base is only maybe 32" wide. Were I to place a 56" JVC rear projection LCD on it whose base is also about 56" wide, I'd have a significant portion of the base unsupported at the sides.

In regard to heat generated by some receivers, see the "Onkyo is Junk" thread here in amps, receivers and processors. It discusses stands and heat issues. These Bellos are open on the back, sides and front. Don't know if the 972 will run as hot as the Onkyos.

Overall, I really like my Bello stand. It looks great, and reflects good, modern Italian design. Strong and stable, it says "quality". I recommend the Bello stands. A young woman who was recently a guest in my home commented favorably on it.


My Samsung LNT-5271F (current plan) will be mated with (sit on) my Bello stand. My stand is the silver color (grey really) but apparently they now come in black as well. I've never seen one in black. Black might or might not be a little severe with white walls. Either color stand will look good with the piano black Sammy cases (I think). As I say above, the top shelf of my Bello is 24 1/2" off the floor. My current, black Sony Trinitron sits on it and that works fine, so I think the Sammy will be ok there too. BUT I wear bifocals. I'm sitting across a room 16' 1/2" wide. If my Bello were any lower, I'd have to hold my head up all the time to avoid looking through the bifocal lenses, not a good deal at all. For that reason, the other two three-legged Bellos of this design would not work for me, as they are 21 1/2" tall and 19 3/4" tall.

If you don't wear bifocals, those stands could work too. Just be aware of their height differences before you buy one and be sure a big-screen works for you at their heights. They are all great-looking stands, and very strong and stable.

BTW I misplaced a screwdriver that came with my Bello, I called the importer in New Jersey listed on the instruction sheet, and they fired out a replacement right away.

I'll just note here that with a 17 3/4' depth overall for the 972, even with 3/4" hanging over the front of the lower shelf forward from the receiver's front two feet, that will put the back of it right up against the "pier" in the back of my Bello, so I may have to get into the wooden cube idea I outlined above to buy a little space at the back. The bottom shelf in my Bello is 17" from the front edge to the pier at the back. Now that we know the 972 is 17 3/4" deep, and thanks for that information, I'd like to know how far back the front edges of the front feet of the 972 are from the front of the receiver.

Not so incidentally, the back of a 972 is not homogeneous, of course, in terms of what inputs and outputs, etc., are where. Even if it protrudes right back to the center pier, moving it left or right may solve the problem of positioning it relative to the pier so as to solve the cabel stressing issue. I won't know till I see one, or see a good photo of the back of one.

And further BTW, Jeff has yet to squawk about my suggesting they add the Reon processor to the 972, that they offer it in black, or that they place the headphone jack outside the door. They have now implemented two out of three. Spooky who's on here, isn't it? It's a reminder to keep your doors locked at all times, folks.

Jeff...

We need your help! This thread has gone off the deep end :confused:.

Please answer our questions (or at least address them) so we can get back on topic.

Thanks...

where's the "unsubscribe' button on here?? :rolleyes:

That Trinnov processor sounds like it is going to be an awesome addition.

glennQ

Will the new model accept/process pure DSD and MLP via HDMI for use with DVD-A and SACD players?


What is Digi-Link III and what are its parameters?


What is "TADS" and why is it important?


Also, Jeff, please update the Newcastle website with latest information including a high resolution picture of the rear.

Before you all get mad here, I suggest you try emailing Jeff. He's under no obligation to post here. This is an AVS forum, not Sherwood-owned or sponsored.

Before you all get mad here, I suggest you try emailing Jeff. He's under no obligation to post here. This is an AVS forum, not Sherwood-owned or sponsored.

Hi FreddyW,

It is my belief that the few post above are aimed at getting back the thread that has been hijacked; it is more urgency oriented than emotionally negative.

Do these receivers have startup volume control? That is, can they reset to a (lower) user-set volume level when you turn them on?

Do these receivers have startup volume control? That is, can they reset to a (lower) user-set volume level when you turn them on?

I've never thought about it but that would be nice.

In the absence of more info from Jeff, how about a discussion of the Trinnov system? It does seem appropriate, given that the 972 will be the first consumer product to feature it.

I've taken a quick look at the Sensible Sound article, which is available online here (http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Trinnov+optimizer.-a0158832025), but unfortunately without figures.

I have a couple of concerns:

1. It requires the use of monopole speakers in all positions, including all surrounds
2. It appears to me to be effective in a very limited area around the measurement position.
3. It is not clear to me from the article how well this system works correcting narrow-bandwidth resonances in the bass region.

Anyone care to comment, based on the article or any other reading or experience you may have?

Discussing the Trinnov Optomizer (TO) is a great idea.

I didn't realize the TO requires the use of monopole speakers. There is a set of speakers I'm really interested in getting but the three front speakers have open baffles and the surrounds are omni directional. Damn. I was all set on pairing the R-972 with those speakers.

Jeff... can you please comment on the requirements of the TO (like if monopole speakers are required). Please also comment on the relative size of the "sweet spot".

Do any of you know if monopole speakers are required by MultEQ XT or Professional?

I'll check with Trinnov regarding monopole speakers. I don't think it is a requirement.

Narrow band bass peaks should be no problem.

Jeff

The Onkyo firmware update addresses the video output issues, but it still doesn't address the audio delay / latency issue.

The fact that they released this update fairly quickly shows they are responsive to owner's demands. I will be in the market for an AVR in a couple months and I expect these other wrinkles to be ironed out by then.

The 905 also runs exceptionally hot. Heat is the killer of electronic components. I also would almost guarantee that the R-972 will have better sound quality than the 905.

Who's to say the R-972 won't run hot as well?

I for one hope that the R-972 will fulfill our expectations. I hope it supports FLAC, HD Radio, ethernet, etc. Both XM and Sirius hookups would be nice as well, I hate when they choose one or the other.

If the Reon is implemented correctly, and it sounds as good or better than the 905, for equal or less $ street price, then I'm all over it. I just hope it keeps on schedule.

I'll check with Trinnov regarding monopole speakers. I don't think it is a requirement.

Narrow band bass peaks should be no problem.

Jeff

Jeff... thanks for the quick reply :D.

I also appreciate you looking further into this.

Please also address the size of the "sweet spot" with the Trinnov Optomizer, whether the R-972 will play HD Radio and whether it will be able to connect with an external media server over an ethernet and/or wifi connection.

The size of the sweet spot isn't a deal breaker, but having a larger one would be nice.

Do any of you know if monopole speakers are required by MultEQ XT or Professional?

No, there is no such requirement for the Audyssey system, probably because it is not trying to move the effective sound sources around spatially, like the Trinnov is.

According to the article and some of the ancillary material on the Trinnov website, the system adjusts delay and levels of the channels you have, to try to recreate the original positions of the sources on the mixing stage, i.e. make the sound you hear at home as much like the sound the guy mixing the film heard as possible. The film mixer didn't have dipole surrounds - almost all mixing stages use five identical monitors spaced in the standard 5 (or maybe 7, now) channel positions (ITU 775 standard).

I for one hope that the R-972 will fulfill our expectations. I hope it supports FLAC, HD Radio, ethernet, etc. Both XM and Sirius hookups would be nice as well, I hate when they choose one or the other.

If the Reon is implemented correctly, and it sounds as good or better than the 905, for equal or less $ street price, then I'm all over it. I just hope it keeps on schedule.

I am looking forward to this unit as well, to use as a prepro.

Agreed about the Reon - I hope they absorb lessons learned from Onk:
1. Implement the complete set of controls available
2. Keep the black level right
3. Don't automatically and uncontrollably stretch 4:3 input material (such as from a VCR or cable box) in the Reon to 16:9

Finally, get the HDMI interface right - the Onks all down the line fail to output audio from a CD played on an HDMI 1.3 player when the TV is off. Be more like Denon in this regard.

It would also be really impressive to have a mode that minimizes audio latency (selectable by input) for those game players among us. That would really put this AVR in a class by itself.

fyzziks:

The Trinnov goal is to recreate the acoustic field of the original recording. Speaker EQ is only the starting point. Recreation of the 3D spatiality also requires that the speakers acoustic centers match those of the original. Although the Optimizer can raise or lower an out of plane speaker, its real magic is its ability to recreate ITU 775 or the SMPTE Cinema standards even when speakers cannot be placed as required by these standards.

The sweet spot is somewhat dependent on how much work we need to do with the 3D remapping. The closer the speakers are to the standard before we engage Trinnov the wider the sweet spot will be. Even with typical room placement, in most cases, the sweet spot will be quite large.

Regarding David Rich's assertions about monopole speakers, here's what the guy from Trinnov had to say: "In the case of dipoles- the speakers will get an energy based compensation. We have successfully tested dipoles even with the calibration mic at the null. The system was able to do this back when David did his review, and there have been improvements since."

Also "all channels- loudspeakers and subs- get low frequency correction.
Current DSP implementation has multiple IIR filters for that very purpose."

As to some of the other questions: The R-972 will process DSD and DVD-A over HDMI. TDAS means totally discrete amplifier stages. Digilink III is a proprietary communications protocol that allows one of our components to communicate with other of our Sherwood and Newcastle components.

Jeff

I've never thought about it but that would be nice.

I take it startup volume level is not implemented in Sherwood's current receivers? This is a feature I really missed when I didn't have an HK receiver.

fyzziks:

The sweet spot is somewhat dependent on how much work we need to do with the 3D remapping. The closer the speakers are to the standard before we engage Trinnov the wider the sweet spot will be. Even with typical room placement, in most cases, the sweet spot will be quite large.

This makes some sense, but its still hard to assess how large "quite large" actually is. If, say like most of us, the LR speakers are in about the right places, but the center is a couple of feet low or high - the sweet spot might be roughly some percentage of the room length and width? Like 5-10%, maybe?


Regarding David Rich's assertions about monopole speakers, here's what the guy from Trinnov had to say: "In the case of dipoles- the speakers will get an energy based compensation. We have successfully tested dipoles even with the calibration mic at the null. The system was able to do this back when David did his review, and there have been improvements since."


I don't understand what is meant here by "energy based" in the context of the sound source relocation process. "Energy based" does make sense to me in the context of equalization, though.


Also "all channels- loudspeakers and subs- get low frequency correction.
Current DSP implementation has multiple IIR filters for that very purpose."

Well, I should hope so:) The question was more about the resolution of those filters, which often must be quite narrow to accurately correct the room effects. Are the filters minimum phase, so that when they correct the amplitude, the phase is automatically also corrected, and the impulse response is cleaned up?

Thanks very much for this information, Jeff. I am inspired to do some more reading in the white papers, and maybe check out some of the AES articles.

Also nice to know we are neighbors.

Jeff... thanks for the details!

A couple of quick questions. You referenced dipoles... were you speaking of dipole surrounds? Does that mean open baffle L, C and R speakers are OK? What about omni-directional surrounds instead of dipoles?

Seems like the short story is that Newcastle's utilization of the Trinnov processor, will result in an AVR with the most sophisticated 'room correction' anywhere even remotely close to it's price point.
At $1800 retail, even if you painted it pink I'd be first in line. :)

glennQ

I would like to know if both the 872 and the 772 will allow you to pass HDMI audio to a display and let you use the 5.1/7.1 analog inputs for sound from the same source going to the same output channels (such as the HDMI video and 7.1 analog audio output from my Home Theater PC).

So, basically, can you mix HDMI digital video input with 5.1/7.1 analog audio input synchronously. Thanks.

I would like to know if both the 872 and the 772 will allow you to pass HDMI audio to a display and let you use the 5.1/7.1 analog inputs for sound from the same source going to the same output channels (such as the HDMI video and 7.1 analog audio output from my Home Theater PC).

So, basically, can you mix HDMI digital video input with 5.1/7.1 analog audio input synchronously. Thanks.

Just out of curiosity, why would you want to do this?

Seems like the short story is that Newcastle's utilization of the Trinnov processor, will result in an AVR with the most sophisticated 'room correction' anywhere even remotely close to it's price point.
At $1800 retail, even if you painted it pink I'd be first in line. It does sound promising but I think we'll have to wait and see (listen.) Sometimes simpler is better if it does less harm. In spite of being nearly brain dead compared to Audyssey, some people prefer the sound of Pioneer's octave-band EQ to what they could achieve in their rooms with Audyssey. My take is Audyssey tries to do too much with not enough user control and it has a hard time getting repeatable results. You run it once and if you run it again it may get better or it may get worse but you can't go back to the old one if it gets worse.

Seems like the short story is that Newcastle's utilization of the Trinnov processor, will result in an AVR with the most sophisticated 'room correction' anywhere even remotely close to it's price point.
At $1800 retail, even if you painted it pink I'd be first in line. :)

glennQ

If they made a pink one my wife would demand I buy one.

So here is a vote for producing one in pink. :)

Just out of curiosity, why would you want to do this?

I have a high end sound card in my computer with excellent analog output for both music and movies. I want to be able to play the sound through the analog channels and video over the HDMI interface on certain occasions.


PS-- I can live with the color. :p

I have a high end sound card in my computer with excellent analog output for both music and movies. I want to be able to play the sound through the analog channels and video over the HDMI interface on certain occasions.

The 965 has an 8channel direct input feature that does this. Hopefully the upcoming 8 series will possess the same feature with HDMI.

Since no one has the 872 yet; it is a wait and see game.

Thanks, that's interesting information.

On the same note, I called up Sherwood technical support today and asked them about this directly. A nice engineer in their department is going to test this functionality out for me on an R-772 Newcastle recevier and get back to me.

He also said that the R-872 should be available "by the end of this month."

Wow...I've been out of the Sherwood loop since selling my P-965(needed hdmi for my pj so I bought a denon 2807) . This new 972 sounds like it's going to be a nice unit.

Hopefully it will have one of my favorite P965 features...bass management for analog 7.1 ch inputs(for sacd/dvd-a/etc).

The P965 hands down had better all around sound than my current Denon.
Yes the P965 had some quirks in the user interface etc. but I really miss it's sound quality.

I e-mailed Audyssy regarding their opinion on how they differ from Trinnov (as well as a few other questions). I got a very professional response. Here is the exchange...


My initial e-mail:


Hi...

I'm interested your opinion on what differentiates the Audyssey MultEQ XT from the Trinnov Optomizer. I'm considering two receivers at this point... the ONKYO TX-NR905 and Sherwood/Newcastle R-972 (not out yet). I know that they both have EQ systems that use FIR filters, but other than that I hear they are quite different. I've also read on many occasions that the MultEQ XT in receivers doesn't perform as well as the stand alone unit. Does the MultEQ XT used in the ONKYO 905 perform better than it's predecessors? I ask that because advertising indicates it has the potential to use the PRO format. I don't know if the Trinnov EQ in the receiver will work as well as that in the stand alone unit as the S/N R-972 is the first receiver to have it and it won't be released until March '08. Also, one last question, and this is crucial. I have my heart set on a beautiful set of speakers for my home theater. Here's the catch. The front three have open baffles and the 4 surrounds are omnipolar in design. Will MultEQ work with non-direct radiating speakers such as these? I've read the Trinnov Optimizer only works with direct radiators.

Thanks for your info and patience...

Krister



Their reply:

Hi Krister,

The Trinnov Optimizer and MultEQ XT are very different products. The Trinnov Optimizer is an advanced speaker mapping method that tries to virtually place the speakers in the correct location for 5.1 reproduction, even if the speakers are physically in non-optimal locations. MultEQ XT on the other hand, is a room measurement and correction algorithm that tries to invert the acoustical problems that occur when sound from speakers interacts with the room through reflections and standing waves.

Regarding the comparison between the receiver version of MultEQ XT and the one in the Sound Equalizer, the answer is that in the Sound Equalizer we have the luxury of using the entire DSP chip and so the filter resolution is higher than what is found in receivers where we have to share the DSP resources with other functions.

Several receivers on the market from Denon, Onkyo, NAD, and Crestron now feature Audyssey Pro calibration. This is performed by an installer who runs a more advanced version of our software on their PC and can capture more data in the room for better room correction.

Yes, MultEQ will work just fine with open baffles and omnipolar speakers.

Best regards,
Chris


I'm pretty impressed with the response. I wonder if the same type of issues will apply to the Trinnov. Chris implies the Trinnov Optomizer doesn't correct for the acoustic properties of the room but only spacially relocates the speakers to their ideal location.

Jeff...

I recall you saying the Trinnov Optomizer function in the R-972 does in fact allow more advanced acoustic intervention (fixing in-room acoustic problems as well as setting target curves) in addition to virtually relocating the speakers to their optimal position. I assume the main advantage of Audyssey's system is increasing the sound quality within a larger area whereas the main advantage of the Trinnov system creating a damn near ideal sound for an individual location. Does this sound about right? Can you elaborate? Did you definitively find out if the Trinnov Optomizer works with open baffle and omni-polar speakers as opposed to direct radiators and dipole surrounds?

Thanks...

Krhomlberg

Wonder what Trinnov's official response would be? Would you mind shooting an email off to Trinnov, I'm sure other people would be interested as well. Thanks.

krholmberg:

Frankly, I think any comparison between Trinnov and Audyssey should come from disinterested 3rd parties and not from me. That being said, while we have not studied all of the units that offer MultEQxt, the ones we have looked at suggest that reviewers will find larger differences than you suggest.

I have discussed open baffle, di-pole and bi-pole speakers with Trinnov and they have confirmed that their technology is compatible.

Jeff

Jeff...

I appreciate your professionalism. And, thanks for speaking with them... you got the response I was hoping for :D. Everything I hear about the Trinnov's capability sounds wonderful... there is just so little practical experience with the unit that we're left wondering/wanting more.

BTW, even though biased, we'd appreciate your opinion when the time is right.

Krhomlberg

Wonder what Trinnov's official response would be? Would you mind shooting an email off to Trinnov, I'm sure other people would be interested as well. Thanks.

Done. We'll see what they say.

As Jeff said, the real proof will be when independant reviewers compare them.

OK guys... I e-maild Trinnov and received a very detailed response from Curt Hoyt. Since he directly referenced each of my questions (and intertwined his response with my e-mail), I'm only including his reply.


Hi,
I am a audio/videophile who is looking forward to the release of the Sherwood Newcastle R-972 A/V receiver. It is my understanding that it will be the first receiver to utilize the capabilities of the Trinnov Optimizer. I have a few questions regarding this exciting development:

1. Would you please explain how it differs from the Audyssey MultEQ XT? More to the point, can you explain how the Trinnov Optimizer's implementation in the S/N R-972 differs from the Audyssey MultEQ XT Pro version utilized in a number of competing higher end receivers?


Trinnov: Our expertise is in the reproduction of acoustic fields. Trinnov was founded as a result of 3d acoustic research and ongoing research is a cornerstone of our company. To learn more, visit www.trinnov.com/research.php (http://www.trinnov.com/research.php). Key to understanding why Trinnov's approach is so unique is to look at what the reference standard has been: make speakers sound alike. For spatial reproduction- this calls for exacting speaker placement relative to the listener, and moving the speakers to comform to different listening standards. This is rarely achieved outside of studios and dedicated rooms, and even then, not easy to do. Now Trinnov changes all of that: put speakers where you can, following general guidelines, and you'll get spectacular results over an enlarged area. Why? Because Trinnov solves all aspects of the reproduction equation: voicing and spatiality, by using advanced 3d acoustics algorithms. The improvement applies to the sweet spot as well as the listening area. While the sweet spot gains the most benefit, and the surrounding area benefits as well for multiple listeners. Trinnov provides a unique calibration microphone array with every system that collects 3d acoustical data from the speakers, their placement, and the room. The Trinnov Optimizer analyzes the acoustic data and computes correction filters to reconstruct the acoustic field, giving the same voicing and spatiality of the original. Trinnov's Optimizer Pro provides this same function for some of the toughest production environments in the world: surround broadcast vans, cinema post production, and in surround music studios. The R-972 will be the first consumer product to embody this advanced technology. The R-972 functions with the same analyzing power as the professional Optimizer, and has a reduced feature set that is both easy to use and optimized for audiophile use. The R-972 provides for presets based on multiple acoustic orientations, allowing for Optimization of different listening experiences. As an example, use one setup Optimized for HDTV viewing and other Optimized setups for surround music listening from your favorite reading chair or social area. Even rotate the soundstage in any direction to match…

2. A separate point that I hope you'll address... the Audyssey MultEQ XT is known for decreasing LFE output to a level that makes a lot of people not want to utilize the EQ functions (they calibrate the response too flat and offer minimal user adjustability). A lot of us bass heads like to have a house curve in our home theaters such that there is a gradual upslope of output from 80hz down to 30hz. I personally use a parametric EQ so I'm about 10dB hot from 20-30Hz... north of 30Hz there is a gentle slope down to flat at 80Hz... south of 20Hz there is a gentle slope down to flat at 10Hz. Will I still be able to enjoy that kind of output with the S/N R-972 when utilizing the Trinnov functions?


Trinnov: The Optimizer provides loudspeaker correction to correct for speakers, their placement, and the room. Once that is done, user target curves are offered for those who want to modify to particular tastes. Most who hear flat bass reproduction are startled to find a perceived lack of bass, due to the removal of room mode resonances or peaks. Its common to address this by providing a modest bass boost. The R-972 has such a user option, controllable Bass and Treble adjustments, and a provision for future updates of new user target curves that could be tailored to specific tastes.


3. The Audyssey stand alone unit is known to perform much better than the unit in the receivers... is this something that we can expect with the R-972/Trinnov combo? BTW, their explanation is the DSP has to be shared with other functions thus the MultEQ XT is somewhat limited. They also mentioned the Pro version in the newer higher end receivers addresses this to some extent.


Trinnov: As stated above, the R-972 utilizes the same acoustical analysis algorithms as Trinnov's Professional Optimizer, with a dedicated DSP (TI's DA-708). In the past, a big bottleneck to acoustic computations has been higher sampling rates- double the sampling rate and the computation requirements quadruple, placing severe limits on what can be done. Trinnov has developed a process that removes the processing limits that higher sampling rates call for. As a result, Trinnov provides the full Optimizer Pro calibration sequence, with the result that the computations in the DSP take somewhat longer then in the Pro version. Trinnov feels that the trade-off in setup time (extra minutes) will be time well rewarded every time you turn the R-972 on.


4. Lastly, I have my heart set on a beautiful set of speakers. The catch is the front three speakers have open baffles and the rears are omnipolar. I've heard it mentioned that the Trinnov Optimizer requires direct radiating speakers (and I haven't heard it definitively rebuked). Will I be able to use those speakers with the S/N R-972 receiver and have the Trinnov functions work to their highest potential?

Trinnov: The Trinnov Optimizer has been used with everything from direct radiators, to dipoles, planer electrostatics, all with excellent results.

Thank you very much in advance for addressing my concerns. I'm looking forward to your response.

Sincerely,

Krister

PS. I sent a similar e-mail to Audyssey and they replied with a very respectful comparison. They mentioned the key thing that set the Trinnov Optimizer apart is the spatial reconfiguration of speaker location but elected to not to mention its capability to deal with room acoustics (which of course is their bread and butter). Will you please address all of the functions of the Trinnov Optimizer in the S/N R-972 receiver?

Trinnov: Room acoustics are an important element of the reproduction of any acoustic field. In order to get spatial reproduction right, the 3d acoustic field must be accounted for and managed, hence the importance of room acoustics, loudspeaker voicing and so on. They are all elements of a bigger picture encompassed by Trinnov's Optimizer.

I'm pretty impressed with Curt's response. Although their stand alone unit is better than Audyssey's stand alone unit, it seems to me like they may have paid attention to limitations that Audyssey had to deal with when using their EQ in receivers (sharing processing power). The implementation of the Trinnov Optimizer in the S/N R-972 seems address many issues people have the MultEQ XT in other receivers. I for one am really looking forward to the actual product. March can't come soon enough :D.

Edit: I'm releived that they will offer some customization of the lower end (unlike MultEQ XT)...

The R-972 has such a user option, controllable Bass and Treble adjustments, and a provision for future updates of new user target curves that could be tailored to specific tastes.

I wonder how user adjustable the target curves (if updated to allow this) will be and how one will be able to implement them. My best guess is it's via the GUI.

WOW . . . had to read that a few times :D. Wonder if Trinnov was serious about including a "unique microphone array" with the R-972, or if that will have to be purchased separately to get a better calibrated system than the usual microphones included with other systems.

The unique microphone array Curt refers to is our "acoustic probe". It has 4 microphone capsules arranged in a tetrahedron and can capture the room in 3 dimensions. This leads to extremely accurate results. Levels are measured to the tenth of a dB. Delay is set to the 100th of a millisecond. The probe will be included with the R-972.

Jeff

Jeff posted this in #530:

Trinnov users can write stored performance data to the R-972’s USB jack, sign on to our website, load the stored data and print before-and-after graphs of their system. New target curves will be offered on the web so users can match the sound of their system to their playback material.


Jeff posted this in #354
Quote:
Jeff,

Does the Trinnov come with the proper mike array to set up the Trinnov.
__________________
Noah
Noah:

The 4 capsule mic needed for Trinnov setup will be included with the R-972.

Jeff

Ahh Jeff... I went back to find your previous post but you beat me to the punch. Oh well.

I'm getting impatient waiting ..... even more so after reading the response from Trinnov... I look forward to hearing this unit

Thanks, Krister, that's fantastic information.

Especially interesting to me is the capability to rotate the sound stage.

I was getting real close to ordering an NAD T775, but it sounds like it's worth the wait.

Jeff
Thanks for the refresh, should have searched before I posted :).

Thanks, Krister, that's fantastic information.

Especially interesting to me is the capability to rotate the sound stage.

I was getting real close to ordering an NAD T775, but it sounds like it's worth the wait.

Hey Noah... glad to do it :D.

I was really impressed with his response. It was nice to get good solid info on something most people in the industry just aren't that familiar.

As for the rotational aspect... I would imagine that would be really nice in todays family rooms. The TV is on one end, the kitchen is 90' away and the fireplace may be 180' away. The average listener could look in any direction and think they are getting great stereo or multichannel sound. It seems like all but the most discriminating audiophile might think that, too. It'll be fun to read the reviews and the first user reports :D in March and April.

It'll be fun to read the reviews and the first user reports :D in March and April.

I'm definitely going to be waiting for your review then Krholmberg :D.

Looks like my pre-order on the 905 just got a ship notice. I'll have 30 days to decide if I want to keep it. I was kind of hoping the delays would extend a few more months so more info on the 972 would become available. Any arguements for/against either keeping the 905 or holding out for the 972 that could help sway my decision? I'll be pairing it with Quad 22L2 fronts, an L2 center, and eventually a sub and surrounds. 33% movies/HDTV, 33% games, 33% music. Also I will run ethernet to my PC to stream music from the PC. My TV is a Sharp LC-46D64U 1080p LCD panel. I also have a Westinghouse LVM-37W3 on my PC, but I don't think I'd be able to have both sets hooked up, so I'd choose the Sharp which is my main panel for HDTV/movies/games. BTW I got a great price on the 905. (I thought I posted this earlier but I can't find it now).

I have been very interested in the Denon 3808, but it has lots of problems with a 6.1 setup. It treats it like a 7.1 and then give horrible results.

Will the 972 have problems with a 6.1 setup?

So far, this product is back at the top of my list.

Would love to know where you are hearing that the Denon has such bad issues with 6.1? I have heard nothing but positive feedback on the Denon AVR-3808ci! I would not trust the Sherwood any further than I could throw it. I did research on Sherwood Newcastle, Sony, Pioneer Elite, Marantz, Yamaha, Onkyo, Onkyo Integra, Pioneer and Denon. And even though I almost went with the Pioneer Elite, I ended up choosing the Denon. From what I have seen it is the best out there at this time.

Would love to know where you are hearing that the Denon has such bad issues with 6.1? I have heard nothing but positive feedback on the Denon AVR-3808ci! I would not trust the Sherwood any further than I could throw it. I did research on Sherwood Newcastle, Sony, Pioneer Elite, Marantz, Yamaha, Onkyo, Onkyo Integra, Pioneer and Denon. And even though I almost went with the Pioneer Elite, I ended up choosing the Denon. From what I have seen it is the best out there at this time.

I got it from here:

Denon 3808 & 4308 Bugs, undesired features, and enhancements desired
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=887746


Specific entries:

AUDYSSEY does not support 6.1 configuration
The Audyssey setup does not support a 6.1 speaker configuration. Denon has acknowledged that this is a bug - see this post for more info:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...&postcount=673



I agree that the 6.1 set-up is not fully resolved. However, I found a work-around that I'm using:

Hook up your back surround speaker to the left back surround, not the surround B speakers (you need to change the amp setting for this). Set the auto set-up to a 7.1 set-up. When the set-up routine gets to the surround back right speaker, if it's too quiet, you'll get the "No mic or speaker" error and be forced to redo the set-up. If, however, there's an "appropriate" level of back ground noise, the auto set-up will skip the back right surround speaker and when it's done with the back left surround, left surround and sub, it will correctly configure your system for a 6.1 speaker system. The trick is to determine what's an "appropriate" background noise. Since I wanted the room perfectly quiet for calibration of the other speakers, I wait until the set-up routine gets to the back right surround and then turn on a dust-buster vacuum cleaner (in the back of the room, about 20 feet away from the mic) for 8 seconds. Sounds crazy, but it works for me... Hopefully the next firmware update will fix this correctly!

Upon further testing it is still a little flaky with 1.57, I'll try 1.60 when I get home. It will skip to SBL but during SBR it can not be totally quiet in the room or it will fall to reset. But, you can get it to work if you make a little noise while it searches for SBR. Odd, I know, but let's see if 1.60 clears it up totally.

snooze....

I've never spent more than around $1k for a receiver before but if the R-972 is as great as trinnov and S/N are making it out to be the extra technology would be worth spending the money for - room correction is very enticing to me. I can't wait - right now I am actually manually unplugging the HDMI from one component to another when needed as I wait for everything I want in an HDMI receiver (actually I pretty much leave the HDMI plugged into the Bluray and run component for everything else unless I feel like being really picky - then I manually switch)

I am considering the Onkyo models 805, 875 and 905 and now the S/N 972 as an upgrade for my great but aging Yamaha 2400 receiver in my dedicated Home Theater room. It will feed my Epson 1080P projector.

Currently I using an HDMI switch to control my various video sources (HTPC, Motorola DCT-6412 STB and PS3) so I use separate coax and TOSlink link connections for my respective digital audio. Thankfully, my old Yamaha has plenty of digital inputs.

Apparently, when using many receivers to switch inputs on the HDMI, actions like changing channels or fast forwarding DVR content on the STB often causes audio dropouts of 1-2 seconds. This would drive me crazy and does not occur with my Oppo HDMI switch/separate audio cable setup.

Jeff, are these issues being addressed in the 972 development?

Thanks in advance.

The unique microphone array Curt refers to is our "acoustic probe".

Jeff

Ouch! "Acoustic probe" brings to mind an unpleasant medical procedure. You guys may want to consider renaming it something else. LOL! :eek:

Sound like a procedure performed by alien's on humans, ROFL :eek:

Hello,

I have read through the whole thread and as the R-972 is delayed until March, is it possible to have the HDMI 1.3b connections ?

I've seen for example that the Panasonic DMP-BD30 Blu-Ray unit is getting out with this newest version of the HDMI spec.

Another question : as I live in France when will this receiver be released there ?

Thanks in advance for your answers Jeff.

Well, I didn't receive any arguments why I should cancel and wait for the 972, so I'm definitely going to keep the 905. Just not enough solid info yet or answers to questions about the 972. The 972 only has the Trinnov to interest me. The 905 has many other features and details which are of great appeal. I posed the question several times if certain features were being considered for the 972, but Jeff never commented on any of my posts, so now I don't have any reason to wait...

Oh well, I'm still interested to see how this turns out when it finally drops...

Well, I didn't receive any arguments why I should cancel and wait for the 972...

:rolleyes:

glennQ

Facesnorth,

Unfortunately we can't give you any real advice since this thing at this point is only vaporware. The fact that Jeff didn't answer your questions makes me think certain features are still up in the air and he didn't want to commit. Either that or he didn't see your posts :rolleyes:.

If it's still vaporware, chances are slim that we'll be seeing it in March.

I hope that it's not vaporware and that the CES 2008 will unveal its release issue with all the specs stabilized.

By the Way what do you think of the Thunder Audio Video and Inifinite Electronix retailer ?

where is the best place to order sherwood newcastle products online

There are no authorized on line SN dealers; only B&M dealers.

Axiom Speakers are authorized online dealer

Contact www.digitalconnection.com (http://www.digitalconnection.com) they are authorized, but can only list MSRP on their site. If you call them they will give you a good price.

I am a huge fan and buyer of Aix Records DVD-As. www.aixrecords.com. Mark Waldrep records everything live on hard drives. No old tapes, no artificial reverb, no EQ, no over-dubs. I have ~$500 of his disks, which I play in my Panny S-97 DVD-A player. It is 96 kHz, 24 bit word length 5.1 channel material, and the best DVD-As on the market. Simply breathtaking audio fidelity.
Now he has started www.itrax.com, and there you can download his tracks for ~$2 per track. BUT, once you do that, burning them to a DVD-A blank appears to be very difficult. Minnetonka makes DVD-A authoring software, but it limits you to 44 kHz in 5.1 track mode, not the 96 kHz sampling rate of Dr. Waldrep's tracks.
I see wireless routers advertised at BestBuy. An example is the Netgear RangeMax NEXT Wireless N Router. It can "simultaneously stream HD video, download MP3s and more at blazing speeds" says todays Sunday BestBuy ad. Would any of these work to send information from a computer to a receiver such as the coming AVR-972? And if they can do this, what sort of device would receive the signal at the avr receiver end and feed it into the receiver? I'm talking about DVD-A tracks in 5.1 with video. Alternatively, if that won't work, is there a way to send such content down a cable from a computer to this receiver? I see discussions on this thread about streaming material from a computer into the 972. I just have no idea how one would do that. Any information on how to do this would be most appreciated, perhaps especially from Jeff himself.
There are Niveus Media home media servers, meant for one's great room, which start at $3,299. These connect to the internet, and have big hard drives and no fans. www.niveusmedia.com. The next model up is over $8,000. I suspect this is how (wealthy) downloaders from the Itrax website are getting the tracks into their avr receivers. Dr. Waldrep is a huge fan of these media servers for the home, and his telling me about them a year ago was the first I had heard of them.
Any information here would be deeply appreciated. Jeff, perhaps the AVR-972 will be easily able to receive wireless signals sent from a computer by a router such as I have discussed here. How? What device would receive them and where would it plug into the 972? I am certain there is going to be a huge demand for this capability as physical disks fade away and downloading of content off the net grows. But once we download something off the net, how do we get it from our computer, in a separate room, into the 972?
You can see my discussion of this and some of Mark Waldrep's responses by clicking on the "Audio area" here and then "Surrond Sound Formats". Then see the thread "Aix Records Special Offer".

Contact www.digitalconnection.com (http://www.digitalconnection.com) they are authorized, but can only list MSRP on their site. If you call them they will give you a good price.

To get it short if I read you well fresno you would like to know if the R-972 will be with DLNA functions as the Denon 4308CI for example ?

Anybody (Jeff ;)) knows if SN will be showing off their hardware (R-972 ;))at the January show, sure would be nice to get a preview.

To get it short if I read you well fresno you would like to know if the R-972 will be with DLNA functions as the Denon 4308CI for example ?

You would not need DLNA, per se, only an ethernet jack. However, it's absense in the 972 is one of the reasons I chose not to wait for it. If it did have an ethernet jack, you could hypothetically attach a wireless bridge which should communicate with your PC via a router.

Or, you could always have another wired/wireless device in the chain, PS3 or Pioneer's latest Elite Blu-ray player.

Fresno,

Not sure if it would meet your needs for sound quality, but I use a XITEL Pro HiFi-Link(which I believe has been replaced by a newer model), I also think a German company named Behringer makes something similar. It's a small box that runs from your USB port and outputs to your receiver via optical, digital coax or RCA cables. When I bought mine a few years ago it was about $75 and came with 30' cables(optical, coax and RCA). Works great for MP3's, as for higher quality formats I couldn't tell you.

I don't know what DLNA is. I am just trying to figure out how to get hi-res audio tracks I have downloaded into my computer out to my av center in my great room. It is 96 kHz, 24 bit word length material. Someone here has suggested to me that a Linksus WRT 45 operating on G or N channels would work for transmitting the audio only from my computer and that a Slingbox Pro would be needed to transmit the video. (Aix Records DVD-As are hi res audio and standard def video).
I just looked at the Niveus media site again. Their media servers can hold the hi rez audio and hi def video. I sent them an email asking if the servers are full bore computers allowing one to surf the net. They come with a wireless keyboard and mouse, so maybe so. If so, then one of those might be better to buy than a new PC, which I am due for. Suggest everyone take a look at www.niveusmedia.com. They are interesting.
Very interesting about how an ethernet jack on a receiver can theoretically allow one to use a router to wirelessly feed signals from one's computer to the receiver. Are you reading this Jeff? I think this is going to be a very hot topic very soon, as physical disks disappear. Are you thinking media servers in great rooms are going to be big and so we won't have to be sending signals from our computers to a receiver wirelessly? Just note that Mark Waldrep's www.itrax.com site is now up and running, selling DVD-A tracks at ~$2 per track. Ask yourself how we are going to get those into your receiver. We can download them onto our computers and then what? It's real tricky to try to burn them to a disk. The authoring software from Minnetonka e.g., only can handle 44 kHz, not the 96 kHz of the DVD-A standard, so burning them onto a DVD-A disk and carrying that out to our great room and playing it in a DVD-A player is sort of out as a possibility. So then what? Wirelessly transmit the signals from computer to AVR receiver? How? What does the 972 need to permit that? An alternative to downloading Itrax tracks onto our computer is to buy something like the Niveus Media Server (which is quiet as it doesn't use fans for cooling) and then feed from that into the 972. The cheapest Niveus server, the Ranier, has gold-plated analog outputs for audio, not HDMI outputs apparently. I just pointed out to them in an email that all the top gun new receivers like the 972 have 4 HDMI inputs. Analog connections work fine for hi res audio, but I just wonder why they dont use HDMI outputs too.
QUOTE=facesnorth;12560118]You would not need DLNA, per se, only an ethernet jack. However, it's absense in the 972 is one of the reasons I chose not to wait for it. If it did have an ethernet jack, you could hypothetically attach a wireless bridge which should communicate with your PC via a router.[/QUOTE]

I am just trying to figure out how to get hi-res audio tracks I have downloaded into my computer out to my av center in my great room. It is 96 kHz, 24 bit word length material. ... We can download them onto our computers and then what? ... Wirelessly transmit the signals from computer to AVR receiver?

The conventional way of getting 'full size' digital files out of a computer is with a cable. If I'm looking for HiFi, and to appreciate the difference in 96 kHz material, I'm definitely not thinking wireless.

glennQ

A million thanks, Glenn, for actually speaking in English re this issue of getting downloaded Itrax tracks from my computer to my AVR receiver. Don't you dare let anyone know who you really are or where you live! It is an unpardonable sin to use comprehensible English when discussing routers and Linksys and slingbox Pro equipment and how one would do this. I have before me today the Circuit City two-page Sunday newspaper advertising booklet showing such equipment. Not one word, not one hint, no matter how vague, regarding what this equipment can do. NOT A HINT!!!! NOT A HINT! It is voodoo, it is a mystery, only for the annointed and the initiated. It is a deep, dark secret, to be guarded at all costs, sort of like the existence of Planned Parenthood. They show, without telling what it is, a Buffalo Link Station Live 500 GB Multimedia Storage Server. That sort of sounds like something I might need to download Itrax tracks into. I looked it up on the web and you find nothing by posts by absolutely IRATE buyers. Two hour holds on the phone to get to useless tech advice.
They show a Sling personal broadcaster for AV devices. Sure sounds like what I might need. Not ONE WORD about what it can do or how you would set it up or what else you need to buy to get stuff from your computer to your receiver. NOT ONE WORD. Forture magazine says this week that CCs stock price has fallen 70% in 6 months. GEE WHAT A SURPRISE! To learn about this stuff you are supposed to ask around in the locker room at your country club when playing golf. Anyone else can go to hell. We don't want or need your money. Only Planned Parenthood is a more carefully guarded, insider, secret. You know those high school girls with straight noses and flawless complexions who are smiling all the time, the one's bound for Stanford who live in 20,000 sqare foot homes with tailored yards? They know about Planned Parenthood, and their homes can send Itrax tracks from the computers to the AVR receivers. Those two bodies of information are carefully guarded!!
Thank you for telling me such tracks (I mean "files", of course) are conventionally sent via a cable. Would it be a huge crime if I asked you what kind of cable? What kind of an outlet on the back of a computer would it plug into and is there a place on the back of, say, the Sherwood Newcastle 972, to plug the other end into? I don't mind going at this like it's pulling teeth. I have years and years to spend on this issue. Jeff is going to read this and jump in and clear all this up with some really clear information right away. He wants the 972 to succeed, so he is going to come right in here and tell us what cable to use from our computer to the 972, and I mean the brand of cable and which output on the back of our computer and which input on the back of the 972. The disk is dying and we are all going to be downloading hi rez music from www.itrax.com onto our 500 GB or 1 TB harddrives as well as hi-def movies with their Dolby True HD and DTS HD Master Audio audio tracks. That being the case, the 972 is going to modified before it ships to accept the "cable" we will be using to get this into our 972, but he is going to come on here in the next few days and tell us exactly how this will work. I just know it, because this information is critical to the success of the 972 and it is Jeff's job to supply us with this information. He know that if Sherwood-Newcastle does not address this issue with crystal clear information for consumers that its competition will.
The conventional way of getting 'full size' digital files out of a computer is with a cable. If I'm looking for HiFi, and to appreciate the difference in 96 kHz material, I'm definitely not thinking wireless.

glennQ

Thank you for telling me such tracks (I mean "files", of course) are conventionally sent via a cable. Would it be a huge crime if I asked you what kind of cable? What kind of an outlet on the back of a computer would it plug into and is there a place on the back of, say, the Sherwood Newcastle 972, to plug the other end into?

Sure Fresno.... It's just that the practice of how to monitor 24/96 (or even 192 kHz) files on a PC has easily been within reach of anyone even mildly involved in pro audio for years...

There are plenty of options as to how you can get a digital audio output... A Digidesign (of ProTools fame) "Mbox 2 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/397296-REG/Digidesign_9900_17246_00_Mbox_2.html)" has a pretty nice price/performance ratio and would make a good example.

So to spell it out for you... Use a USB cable from your PC to the Mbox 2 (for example)... Then use a standard coaxial digital cable (you remember those, right?) from the Mbox's S/PDIF output into a coaxial digital input on the back of your receiver.
Merry Christmas.

glennQ

Many, many thanks, Glenn. You ARE the man. Whoa. Imagine, this told to me in English! Despite your belief that "how to monitor 24/96 (or even 192) kHz files on a PC has easily been with reach", etc., it has not been within my reach because I (1) have never had a need to do it and (2) I almost surely have a sub-normal IQ. I don't know if I have been even mildly involved with pro audio. I don't know what that means. Do you think I am a professional installer? Is this a site for professional installers? Is so, I should not be on here. They're called "CE's"- Custom Installers. I am not one. So if we asked a thousand people on the street how they would do this, most of them would tell us what you have told me here. Oh, ok. Well, anyhow, I am deeply grateful for the information. FOR SURE you would never learn it by reading a CC Sunday ad section. I suspect A LOT of people are going to want to know how to do this if the physical disk is disappearing and we are all going to be downloading 24/96 5.1 channel music, and hi def video with Dolby True HD and DTS HD Master Audio tracks onto our hard drives and then sending them out to our great rooms. I guess most people know all about how to do this. I am honestly surprised.
Do I remember a standard coaxial digital cable? No, I don't. Not a bit. Digital? All I remember are analog cables with an RCA plug on either end. But, now that I know what I need, I am sure I can buy them. Money talks, they say.
Do most current receivers have a coaxial digital input on the back of them? Just asking. Are you sure the Sherwood-Newcastle 972 will have one? I am asking.
One more thing, if one downloads onto his computer Itrax 5.1 channel 24/96 audio tracks AND the standard def video that comes with them, can a the set-up you describe deliver both the audio and the video to one's receiver? The bandwidth of this set-up is sufficient for the video? If so, I may well go this route. I guess I can cleverly hide the cable running from my computer room out to my avr receiver in my great room somehow.
The alternative to running a cable using the set-up you describe seems to be to buy a Niveus Media Server for one's great room at this point. You run a high speed internet connection into it, store music and video downloads on its 500 gig or 1 Tb hard drive, and run a cable from it into your receiver. These Niveus servers do not have fans but rely on huge finned heat sinks on their sides, so they can be used in your av room without making noise. See www.niveusmedia.com. They are not cheap- $3400 for a basic model with, at most, a 500 gig hard drive. You can get an HP Media computer with a 1 TB hard drive and a BlueRay burner for $3610, so it seems to me that you are getting more with the HP computer. I just do not understand the Niveus Media Servers well enough at this point to be sure about that.
But again, I am truly grateful to you for the information. I guess I have lived a sheltered life.
Sure Fresno.... It's just that the practice of how to monitor 24/96 (or even 192 kHz) files on a PC has easily been within reach of anyone even mildly involved in pro audio for years...

There are plenty of options as to how you can get a digital audio output... A Digidesign (of ProTools fame) "Mbox 2 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/397296-REG/Digidesign_9900_17246_00_Mbox_2.html)" has a pretty nice price/performance ratio and would make a good example.

So to spell it out for you... Use a USB cable from your PC to the Mbox 2 (for example)... Then use a standard coaxial digital cable (you remember those, right?) from the Mbox's S/PDIF output into a coaxial digital input on the back of your receiver.
Merry Christmas.

glennQ

So, has anyone listened to or purchased a 772/872 yet. Are either of these in any showrooms yet? I listened to a 672 the other day and put in my order for an 872 which, according to my dealer, told me it is scheduled for a January delivery but the exact ship date is unclear as of yet.

fresno, chill. if you are nicer, people will tend to reply. your replies are more like rants with needless opinions on people richer than you and planned parenthood...they have nothing to do with this. also, what ads specify exact information? look up the item your interested in on the internet. please change your demeanor because i am shocked that people have helped you despite your poor attitude.

merry christmas and happy holidays!

if you are nicer, people will tend to reply And shorter. And on topic. Computer stuff, furniture, etc. may be very interesting but there are forums here at AVS that cover those subjects very well. When a post is obviously off topic in the first few lines and goes on for half a page, I tend to skip over it. People in this thread have been quite patient IMHO.

Merry Christmas, all! :)

So, has anyone listened to or purchased a 772/872 yet. Are either of these in any showrooms yet? I listened to a 672 the other day and put in my order for an 872 which, according to my dealer, told me it is scheduled for a January delivery but the exact ship date is unclear as of yet.
Both the 872 & 772 AVRs are quite overdue. The latest ETA I read for the 772 was December, but I don't know if it was/will be out this month.

"fresno, chill. if you are nicer, people will tend to reply. "

FYI, I don't what he's talking about because I can't face diving into those immense single paragraphs.

Do most current receivers have a coaxial digital input on the back of them? Are you sure the Sherwood-Newcastle 972 will have one?

Yes to both questions.

glennQ

I remember you from some other nasty posts a few weeks ago, Catapult. Just have to have your way, right? You'll decide what is on topic and what isn't for all of us. Getting downloaded hi-rez music tracks, and video, from our computers out to our av receivers is now a hot topic FOR RECEIVER USERS, and will get to be an even hotter topic as disks disapear. I request that you do indeed skip reading my posts. Please!

And shorter. And on topic. Computer stuff, furniture, etc. may be very interesting but there are forums here at AVS that cover those subjects very well. When a post is obviously off topic in the first few lines and goes on for half a page, I tend to skip over it. People in this thread have been quite patient IMHO.

Merry Christmas, all! :)

Thanks for the further clarification, Glenn. One further question: Will the Mbox2 and the coax dig. cable you describe carry video too? The Aix Records DVD-As I love so much are 5.1 ch 96/24 audio and they have video. It is standard def video. The Mbox2 goes for around $500. If it can do all that, I'd really consider one. Since it has DACs in it, I guess the USB cable into it is analog and it coverts the material to digital, right? Very grateful for your help on this.
Yes to both questions.

glennQ

Fresno, I'm not trying to pick on you, just trying to educate you about basic forum etiquette. Since you don't seem to understand, perhaps an example will help. This is a good question. It's short enough for everyone to read and of interest to almost everyone considering buying one of these receivers. If anyone knows the answer, you will most likely get a reply.

What are the dimensions of the new receivers?

This is a bad question. It strays way off topic and is too long to expect anyone to read it, let alone answer it.

Jeff- How deep will the 972 be from front to back? More importantly for me, how far is it from the front edge of the front feet to the back of anything on the back of it- I.e. clips, connectors, speaker connectors. I recall from the CES introduction of it that it is ~18" deep overall, but fractions of an inch will be significant for me if I try to put a 972 on the bottom shelf of my Bello AVS-422T stand. That stand has a big, round pier in the MIDDLE, in the back, side to side.

The stand is essentially a three-legged affair, two in the front and that pier in the back located in the middle, side to side. If the stand had four legs, one at each corner, you could put a very deep receiver indeed on the bottom, deepest shelf, but with the pier in the middle, you are blocked by it depth-wise. The pier has a big port in it for running cables into, but if the back of a receiver butts right up against it, things can still get tight cable-wise since the pier is pretty wide and the port it in is not nearly as wide. Also, I believe the stand's two lower tempered glass shelves are rated for 50 lbs. (The top shelf is rated for much more weight since people will set big-screens on it). I believe the 972 will be ~52 lbs, yes? I'd be willing the chance 52 lbs on that bottom glass, especially since it would be easy to place carefully-sized wood blocks under the glass to add support to it.

If the fit is just too tight for the cables in the back around that pier, and if the danger is too great wrt to the bottom glass shelf breaking with 52 lbs. on it, I thought of a way around both. Take the bottom glass shelf OUT and put four carefully-sized wooden cubes on the FLOOR upon which to rest the four feet of the 972. These could be placed front to back so that the receiver sits a little farther forward than it would if the front feet were right out at the front of the glass shelf, giving a little more clearance for cables back there at that pier. And these wooden cubes can be just tall enough that the bottom of the receiver clears the steel cross-members running left to right at the bottom of the stand. Since I have tile, I'll put felt on the bottom surfaces of the cubes to protect my tile.

Anyone contending with these Bello stands can use this solution. This style of Bello stands- the three legged ones, comes in 3 different sizes in terms of height and width but the deepest of them is only 1/2" deeper than mine and all have a 50 lb. weight rating on their two lower shelves. See this stand by searching for Bello AVS-422T and seeing the "product picture gallery". Of the three pix, see the one with nothing sitting on the stand to see how that rear pier is positioned. Note that the two lower shelves slide into notches cut into the pier for their rear support. They slide into clips on the inside edges of the two front legs for their two forward supports.

Editing here, I just thought of a further refinement of the "wooden cube" solution. If you like the look of the bottom glass shelf, and I do, and you want to keep it, you could do this: Put two carefully sized cubes under the glass back where the two rear feet of the 972 will be, coming right up against the lower surface of the glass, adding to its weight-bearing potential. Then, to buy an inch or so of extra depth, put two cubes out right in front of the front edge of the bottom glass shelf as far apart as the front feet of the 972 are. These cubes could be made so that for each cube, their top surfaces have two different heights: the lower, rear-most height would come up just under the glass. The taller, forward-most height of each of these two cubes would be exactly the height of the top surface of the lower glass shelf. That way, you could literally place the two front feet of the 972 so that they are half way on the cube and half way on the glass. You have now bought some extra depth front to back and you have strengthened the bottom glass shelf by putting four wooden cubes under it to take the greater-than-50 lbs. weight of the 972.

The whole issue with depth here has to do with the rear pier. It's pretty wide, and it has a vertical port it it, but if the 972 is right up against the pier, even with some wires going into that port, you still might be stressing cables on either side of the port by bending them to go around the sides of the pier or bending them to go into the port. Pull the receiver forward a little and now you are stressing cables less to do either one of those. And, as I say, my wooden cube scheme re-inforces the weight-bearing potential of the bottom glass shelf, rated at 50 lbs.

Editing here- I measured the lower glass shelf of the Bello stand last night. It is very close to 17 3/4" deep BUT it slides into the notch in the pier in the back, so that reduces its real depth to ~17". A shelf is only as deep as its most shallow point, if you are going to mount something relatively wide on it, like the 972. Apparently Bello never thought of receivers being 18" deep.

BTW, my Bello AVS-422T stand is the tallest of the three "3-legged" stands, with the top shelf being 24 1/2" off the floor. The other two are 21 1/2" tall and 19 3/4" tall. For some reason, as they get wider, they get lower. Mine is 41 1/2" wide, and the others are 52" wide and 63" wide, respectively. Bello gives a recommendation for each wrt screen size of big screens they can hold, but those seem to assume that the display is as wide at its base as the case is wide. Now, many big screens are coming with a "stem" at the bottom of the screen mounted on a base which is narrower than the case of the set proper. This allows one to place the set on a table or stand like these Bellos much narrower than the main case of the display. My Bello at 41 1/2" wide can easily accomodate a Samsung whose case is 54" wide, but whose support stand or base is only maybe 32" wide. Were I to place a 56" JVC rear projection LCD on it whose base is also about 56" wide, I'd have a significant portion of the base unsupported at the sides.

In regard to heat generated by some receivers, see the "Onkyo is Junk" thread here in amps, receivers and processors. It discusses stands and heat issues. These Bellos are open on the back, sides and front. Don't know if the 972 will run as hot as the Onkyos.

Overall, I really like my Bello stand. It looks great, and reflects good, modern Italian design. Strong and stable, it says "quality". I recommend the Bello stands. A young woman who was recently a guest in my home commented favorably on it.

Dennis, don't bother. You won't be able to reason with him, and your efforts just end up being more off thread posts...

BTW, it was nice of you to quote the edited version of his post above and not the single paragraph mess he posted originally!

(Oh sh!t, I just added another off-thread post, it's a disease...)

Hi Guys I am trying to figure out if either of the Newcastle receivers will for sure transfer 1080i from HDMI in to Component out.

This is what the newcastle website has to say. It says it will take video from HDMI to component but does not say if it down rezzes or just passes through the 1080i.

While both units transcode all analog video to a single component video output, the R-872 is extremely advanced. In keeping with the ease of use theme, the R-872 uses a Genesis Faroudja processor IC and can deinterlace and scale any of its video inputs, analog or digital, to 720p, 1080i or even 1080p and output them over HDMI. Should the user wish to have his video operate primarily in the analog domain, the R-872 will even convert digital video arriving over HDMI to component video. In either the digital or analog case, only a single monitor cable from the receiver to the display is sufficient for video and OSD.

Gillhooley, I doubt it can transcode from HDMI to component. HDMI copy protection isn't supposed to allow that but who knows until we see the units shipping.

Edit: I guess, in theory, the hardware could do it if the disk didn't have HDCP copy protection but, AFAIK, all the hi-rez disks have it. Maybe it would work with a standard 480i DVD.

Fresno the DLNA (http://www.dlna.org/en/consumer/home) (Digital Living Network Alliance) is the future of home automation. It is the alliance of major players (Dolby, Motorola, Philips, Samsung, Matsushita, Hewlett-Packard, Sony, Microsoft, Intel, Nokia...) in consumer electronics to get their devices talk with each other through a standard. If wireless is not suitable for audio speakers for the transfer of digital files it is.

I am using wireless to transfer large video files from my computer to my Tv set and audio receiver and it works very fine even with DTS 5.1 quality. No need to say that for your audio files it will work. As I am working in the IT since 12 years I know what I'm talking of.

If I were you instead of buying an expensive specialized server from Niveus I would buy an Archos 705 Wifi (http://www.archos.com/products/gen_5/archos_705wifi/accessories.html?country=us&lang=en) with its DVR Station 5. You can then transfer your files from your PC to the Archos and plug the Archos through USB to the receiver and listen to your files wherever you go.

I've seen the choices of RAID done by Niveus and RAID 0 offers no protection of files only a quicker access so if you really want to keep your files the better is to use RAID 5.

Finally regarding what Itrax offers I was very disappointed that they don't even use the reference in lossless audio files which are APE and FLAC file format and they are both free of use.

Now that I have finished with this off topic matter, Stereojeff what are the latest news about the R-972 ? Will it have an accurate launch date and definitive specs when the CES 2008 will open ?

QZ1,

Well, of of the 27th, the 772 should be en route to showrooms while the 872 has joined in with the 972 in being delayed till March. My dealer called his SN rep to inquire about my order so this info should be the most current. This blows because I have the 872 on order but fortunately my dealer is letting me borrow his 871 until it comes in.

Thank you, Tempus. Very interesting about the DLNA effort.

I spent two hours reading on the Archos website and elsewhere about the Archos 705 Wifi device. Man, are they determined to just SNOW the public. They talk in engineering jargon. It is more fun to snow the suckers than to really explain, and I mean in clear English, what your product can do and exactly how it can be made to to it, than it is to make tons of money! Can you believe it!!? I did searches for Archos 705 and found no real further explanation. ONE user review, of almost no help.

BUT it sounds like it could get 5.1 96/24 audio files and maybe video too from my PC out to my great-room and into a Sherwood-Newcastle 972 receiver. Do you agree, Jeff? There will be a rapidly increasing need for this capability. If you could comment here on this issue I think many would be grateful. Maybe the 972 needs an input device or port that it lacks now? I do not know. Can it accept a USB cable?

Tempus, would you please be a little more specific about how it works and how to set it up. I gather, vaguely after two hours of reading, that the Archos 705 can receive and record audio and video off the net wirelessly when one is in a Wi-fi cell, such as at Starbucks.

Also, one can download files from one's PC into it via a USB connection. Is this right?

Then, one can wirelessly transmit those files out to one's great-room to a receiving device? Is that the DVR Station 5? And when it receives the signals wirelessly, you can then get them into a receiver via a USB cable again. Is that right?

Even is this product cannot wirelessly transmit 5.1 96/24 audio files and their accompanying video files out to my great-room, it is small and light-weight. I would be happy to carry it out and hook it to my receiver if need be. Forget wireless, if that is tricky. Can I carry it out and do it that way?

I notice on the Archos website that the 705 supports certain audio formats, e.g., Wav and MP3. It does not mention DVD-A. Would it work with the Itrax 5.1 96/24 tracks?

Any clarification you can provide would be most appreciated. You really seem to know how to do what I want to do.

Fresno the DLNA (http://www.dlna.org/en/consumer/home) (Digital Living Network Alliance) is the future of home automation. It is the alliance of major players (Dolby, Motorola, Philips, Samsung, Matsushita, Hewlett-Packard, Sony, Microsoft, Intel, Nokia...) in consumer electronics to get their devices talk with each other through a standard. If wireless is not suitable for audio speakers for the transfer of digital files it is.

I am using wireless to transfer large video files from my computer to my Tv set and audio receiver and it works very fine even with DTS 5.1 quality. No need to say that for your audio files it will work. As I am working in the IT since 12 years I know what I'm talking of.

If I were you instead of buying an expensive specialized server from Niveus I would buy an Archos 705 Wifi (http://www.archos.com/products/gen_5/archos_705wifi/accessories.html?country=us&lang=en) with its DVR Station 5. You can then transfer your files from your PC to the Archos and plug the Archos through USB to the receiver and listen to your files wherever you go.

I've seen the choices of RAID done by Niveus and RAID 0 offers no protection of files only a quicker access so if you really want to keep your files the better is to use RAID 5.

Finally regarding what Itrax offers I was very disappointed that they don't even use the reference in lossless audio files which are APE and FLAC file format and they are both free of use.

Now that I have finished with this off topic matter, Stereojeff what are the latest news about the R-972 ? Will it have an accurate launch date and definitive specs when the CES 2008 will open ?

fresno1232001:

Please feel free to make a thread on Archos 705, wifi, records or whatever and leave this thread to those of us who are interested in the actual topic, the upcoming "Sherwood Newcastle R-872 & R-972 HDMI 1.3 receivers".

Several people have politely tried to get you have some degree of forum etiquette but yet you seem to not want to get it. I subscribe to this thread and receive an email when someone has posted, presumably regarding this topic, again "Sherwood Newcastle R-872 & R-972 HDMI 1.3 receivers."

It is a pisser to have to read about your furniture dimensions, questions about OTHER products etc in this thread. I wish I could exclude your posts from showing but I can not, so please please post to your hearts content about the topic here, namely "Sherwood Newcastle R-872 & R-972 HDMI 1.3 receivers."

However, please make a brand new thread in the appropriate forum regarding your other non-thread topic questions . Those forums have an audience of people asking similar questions or who possess the knowledge to answer your questions.

Thanks.

Fresno, thanks in joining in the request for information on network and wireless capabilities of the R-972.

In fact when I've seen this rear picture of the R-972 : http://www.sherwood-mba.de/images/R972%20rear%20panel.jpg (sorry Johnla)

the thick antenna let me thought that it would be for use with Wifi but not all rear pictures of this receiver are like this one.

For your other questions read your mail.

The 772 touts this feature... do we know if the 972 will also have it?

"A second feature developed for custom installation is these receivers' “Automatic Room 2” mode. With this mode, the main room can be configured for 7.1 channel operation. When Zone 2 is activated, the main room is automatically reconfigured for 5.1 and the rear center amps are used to power Zone 2. When Zone 2 is turned off, the main room is reconfigured back to 7.1."

I hope there are no "showstopper" issues on this receiver for me. My current Harman Kardon has started buzzing after it warms up (about 5 minutes) so I am holding out for March for the SN.

........the actual topic, the upcoming "Sherwood Newcastle R-872 & R-972 HDMI 1.3 receivers".

........regarding this topic, again "Sherwood Newcastle R-872 & R-972 HDMI 1.3 receivers."

........about the topic here, namely "Sherwood Newcastle R-872 & R-972 HDMI 1.3 receivers."
What is the topic of this thread, again?:D

Can one use the RS-232C port to feed a small screen (e.g 15" LCD) as a secondary display? Just curious because this receiver will go in my HT which only has a front projector. I also have a PS3 and like to use its media server capability for music but would prefer to not have to turn the PJ on to select the music I want to listen to. Even if the 972 has the capability of being a media server, I would expect an on screen display would pretty much be necessary. It would be nice to save bulb hours on the PJ. Thanks in advance.

Can one use the RS-232C port to feed a small screen (e.g 15" LCD) as a secondary display? Just curious because this receiver will go in my HT which only has a front projector. I also have a PS3 and like to use its media server capability for music but would prefer to not have to turn the PJ on to select the music I want to listen to. Even if the 972 has the capability of being a media server, I would expect an on screen display would pretty much be necessary. It would be nice to save bulb hours on the PJ. Thanks in advance.

I don't think the RS-232 port is for video; but I have never hooked mine up to a video display. I will try it this weekend and let you know.

I don't think the RS-232 port is for video; but I have never hooked mine up to a video display. I will try it this weekend and let you know.

Thanks! For some reason I thought it was for video but I'm probably wrong. If anyone has any other suggestions for sending video to a secondary small in room display, please send me a PM (I don't want to clog up this thread ;)).

Krister:

It looks like this 972 (from tempus06's cool picture) has "Room 2" video out with both composite and s-video connectors.

I presume you could see the PS3 by selecting its input and hooking the display to the Room 2 connectors. The only gremlin might be the ability of the 972 to take the PS3 input and put it out over the s-video or composite. Maybe Jeff could confirm that for us.

Regards.

TowJumper...

This is similar to earlier questions about whether the 972 has the capability of outputting HD signals via component that enter via HMDI. If not HD, then hopefully at 480i. If it can it can do that, then there is a reasonable chance it can output 480i over S-Video or composite to the "Room 2".

Jeff... please help!

Thanks! For some reason I thought it was for video but I'm probably wrong. If anyone has any other suggestions for sending video to a secondary small in room display, please send me a PM (I don't want to clog up this thread ;)).

Krister, that's a feature I'd love to know more about as I plan my next setup with music serving in the back of my mind! I never even considered something like what you have described!

Great thread. :)

FYI, I spoke to Sherwood in SoCal before Christmas and she said the 872 was pushed until February. Also, I asked if it would be available in black as I read was the case for the 972 and after a moment on hold she returned and said yes. I'd love a secondary confirmation. (Though, now I'm thinking I might hold out for the 972!).

JP

I'm surprised that with all the HDMI bells and whistles on this thing we don't get room two hdmi out.. I just did a remodel and did hdmi to kitchen as room 2 as its nice to use one cable and get video + audio. I guess if I go 972 I'll have to use an hdmi splitter...

I'm in the same boat having a projector I'd rather not waste bulb life and warm up time on just doing something like accessing the computer's music. Wouldn't it be cool to use that small sony OLED as a monitor like you describe for the PS3 interface? (drool)... but running that off composite or s-video... not so good. What is stopping you from using HDMI for main tv and component for 2nd? surely it can output both at once...?

FYI I saw on the CES 2008 webpage that Sherwood Newcastle has a booth at CES... anyone going so they can talk directly to them about some of our questions and see this beauty in person?

FYI I saw on the CES 2008 webpage that Sherwood Newcastle has a booth at CES... anyone going so they can talk directly to them about some of our questions and see this beauty in person?

I am going to CES for 4 days & have Sherwood on my schedule for Monday. I will report on the 972/3 and all the other info for this 'hot' product. I am VERY interested to see if the 972 will actually 'downconvert' HMDI to component (1080i) since I do not have HDMI on my 5 year old 65' Toshiba.

I'm sure there will be a lot of AVS members there also.

Classico

while checking on the 972, please check on the 872 as well!

Sherwood PR on R-972. Nothing we don't already know. $1800 March
100X7; HDMI 1.3b 4 ins; 7 analog videos in; Reon; decodes lossless audio; RF/IR Remote; Trinnov; BLACK; upconverts to 1080p

I don't think the RS-232 port is for video; but I have never hooked mine up to a video display. I will try it this weekend and let you know.

No. RS232 at tops can only do like 160x120 6-bit monochrome video

Classico:

If you have a chance to inquire about persistent HDMI output and advanced settings for the Reon features by input (i.e. more Noise Reduction on OTA or cable video and less NR a different input, say a DVD) I would love to hear these features are included on the 972.

Thanks.


I am going to CES for 4 days & have Sherwood on my schedule for Monday. I will report on the 972/3 and all the other info for this 'hot' product. I am VERY interested to see if the 972 will actually 'downconvert' HMDI to component (1080i) since I do not have HDMI on my 5 year old 65' Toshiba.

I'm sure there will be a lot of AVS members there also.

Classico

If you have a chance to inquire about persistent HDMI output...



TowJumper,

Does that mean if I have HDMI from Cable Box to AVR (8/972) and HDMI from AVR to Plasma I don't have to turn on the AVR to watch TV? I prefer the TV to process sound when I'm just watching vanilla programming. Thanks.

JP

JP:

You should be able to at least mute the receiver and use the TV speakers and vice versa. It certainly would be cool if the receiver continued to pass on the HDMI data while turned off, I am not sure if the Onkyo 875 did this, I think it did.

I was referring to the audio and video dropouts that might occur when changing resolutions to my video display (in my case a 1080p FP) over HDMI.

I tried an Onkyo 875 as my AVR with a PS3 or cable box as an HDMI-source; I found it often took a couple seconds to reestablish the HDMI handshake when resolutions changed. It was extremely annoying - so much so that the 875 went back.

By persistent HDMI, I was hoping the new S/N receiver could somehow minimize this problem.

The second part of my request for information from S/N was as the result my experiences with the aforementioned Onkyo 875. I thought the Reon NR did a wonderful job with my cable box picture on the medium setting (my screen is 108 inches), but the NR needed to be minimal using my old DVD player sending a signal at 480i. With the 875 I had to manually make the change in NR, which was a pain.

I was hoping the S/N 972 would allow the Reon NR setting to be retained by individual HDMI input.

Regards.

No. RS232 at tops can only do like 160x120 6-bit monochrome video

Umm, NO. RS-232 is a serial interface, it is not remotely related to any video output interface. I guess you could hook up a terminal or use a terminal emulator but I don't think a typical receiver would send back any meaningful info.

Probably way more than most people would want to know about RS-232 but here's a link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RS-232

Umm, NO. RS-232 is a serial interface, it is not remotely related to any video output interface. I guess you could hook up a terminal or use a terminal emulator but I don't think a typical receiver would send back any meaningful info.

Probably way more than most people would want to know about RS-232 but here's a link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RS-232

Hey, bud, don't tell ME no when you don't understand what you're saying NO to. I said RS232 can do that, but if you look at the first part of my response, I said NO to the actual question.

Sherwood PR on R-972. Nothing we don't already know. $1800 March
100X7; HDMI 1.3b 4 ins; 7 analog videos in; Reon; decodes lossless audio; RF/IR Remote; Trinnov; BLACK; upconverts to 1080p

Here is the R-972 picture that they submitted to CES. Funny that it has the Trinnov logo on it but the wrong model number (bottom right). It would had been nice to see it in black. Hopefully, it will be at the show...

http://www.mblast.com/files/companies/141065/Logo/Illustrator-EPS-CMYK/r-972%20copy.jpeg

BR

Here is the R-972 picture that they submitted to CES. Funny that it has the Trinnov logo on it but the wrong model number (bottom right). It would had been nice to see it in black. Hopefully, it will be at the show...

http://www.mblast.com/files/companies/141065/Logo/Illustrator-EPS-CMYK/r-972%20copy.jpeg

BR

It's not the wrong model number. That picture is of a Pre-processor. There is no amplifier section, therefore this is not the 972.

Looks like my P-965 with a Trinnov logo on it. No difference but the logo

And to be honest, Tonov12, it looks to me like they took an existing product shot and Photoshopped the logo into place ;).

TowJumper, thanks for the clarification. This handshake business seems to complicate things quite a bit.

Looking forward to the onsite reports!

JP

No results connecting a flat panel LCD to the RS232

Here's hoping for some news about the pre/pro at CES 2008...

It's not the wrong model number. That picture is of a Pre-processor. There is no amplifier section, therefore this is not the 972.

Yes, I am well aware of that. That said, it is the picture that Sherwood submitted to CES 2008. When I grabbed it, the file name was r972 as well. It is very apparent that they took the door off and added the Trinnov logo. They are probably reusing the 965 chassis for their engineering/CES demo.

As a side note, Mark Fleischmann put something on the HTMAG blog about the 972 but didn't put a picture of the unit. You can read it under CES 2008 coverage. It's mostly about Trinnov.

BR

The 872 seems like the ideal receiver for me. But I'm not sure I want to keep waiting around for it. Both of these 2 models were announced at last years CES and they're still not available. :mad:

Any DEFINITE word from someone at CES on March being the available timeframe when a person could actually buy one of these?

Tony

One of the CES blogs said it's now April.

Ultimate blog on Trinnov (about the middle of the page)

http://blog.ultimateavmag.com/ces2008/

Hometheatermag's (near the top of the page)

http://blog.hometheatermag.com/ces2008//index2.html

Noah,

I cannot find any reference to your April date. I am however very concerned to see that the Trinnov is not in the unit yet. It is still outboard. This leads me to believe that it will not ship for March nor April. I have been waiting for this unit for 6 months now. Not sure I will hold out until any later than March...

BR

Bigrock66 and Noah, is it possible that the outboard unit is more for show? You know, show the crowd the original and then wow them by demonstrating that they managed to squeeze it into the receiver?? I ask, partly because I see they are demo'ing the new black. :D:D (I know, wishful thinking!)

Hey, the image filename from the UltimateAVmag blog identifies the sharply dressed man as Jeff Hipps!!

JP

Hey, the image filename from the UltimateAVmag blog identifies the sharply dressed man as Jeff Hipps!!

JP

That certainly is Jeff. I had a chance to meet and talk to him at the last couple of CEDIA's. Very nice guy, very knowledgeable, and down to earth.

Desmo888, DonoMan and Darjeeling...

Thank you for your input on the RS-232. I was confused. I was hoping to use a cheap 15" LCD as a secondary display for seeing music OSD related info. Since computer monitors are the cheapest, I was hoping to be able to get away with using one of them and not having to get a TV.

Anyone heard/seen if the 872 will still have an MSRP of $999? I've never bought a SN before, do they typically retail for significantly less than MSRP?

Tony

Anyone heard/seen if the 872 will still have an MSRP of $999? I've never bought a SN before, do they typically retail for significantly less than MSRP?


Tony, I think the MSRP has gone up since its announcement a year ago. We're looking at $1,199 now. Don't know about finding them for less. I'm likely going to be a first time purchaser, myself. :)

http://www.sherwoodusa.com/prod_r872.html


JP

Tony, I think the MSRP has gone up since its announcement a year ago. We're looking at $1,999 now. Don't know about finding them for less. I'm likely going to be a first time purchaser, myself. :)

http://www.sherwoodusa.com/prod_r872.html


JP

I checked your link, I think you mean $1,199. You almost gave me a heart attack! :eek:

That's now above my self imposed budget. :mad:

Sorry about that, Tony!! I thought something looked funny... :rolleyes:

Maybe you'll win the lottery or something very soon!

JP

Anything new from CES (besides the potential push back to April :()?

A little something on a quiet day:

http://www.slipperybrick.com/2008/01/sherwood-debuts-new-flagship-av-receiver/

Wish they had more photos.

JP

Anything new from CES (besides the potential push back to April :()?

I experienced (that is the correct word) a demo of the 972 and its DRC using Trinnov. I was stunned. :eek: I have a Denon 4806 with the Audessey: NO CONTEST. The Trinnov processing was without question superior in its capabilities. To wit:

In the demo, they had typical 5.1 setup, but with the center channel sitting on the floor. They demo'd a movie. Without correction, the center channel sound clearly came from the floor. Switching in the correction, the center channel "lifted" to the correct height between the left and right.

This is a very significant feature for me, and I suspect others: Its easy to put speakers to the left and right of the screen/display, but unless you have an acoustically transparent screen, the center channel is always a bit off, either above or below the center of the image. Trinnov fixes this problem hands down. Now I dont have to replace my 100" Firehawk!

When you do the Trinnov processing with the 972 you can load the measurements and correction data onto a USB drive and then upload it to Trinnov's servers. There you can view various graphs showing the corrections, as well as all the details of the analysis that would otherwise be available on the $13k Trinnov system. Audessey? Not so much.

As to reproduction for music, it was again very impressive in providing increased clarity and tonal accuracy and bass correction. And this was in a pretty poor "room", with an open back to the show floor.

Another "trick" they demonstrated was the ability to instantly "rotate" the soundstage from straight head to any arbritrary point to the left or right. This would be very useful if you have a set up with oddly placed speakers in an irregular room. They can put the "center" channel wherever you want to fix this. And this is not by volume adjustment but by time and phase adjust it appears.

As to a pre/pro: Jeff Hipps (VP of Product Development) says yes there will be one available around August, though he pointed out that "you're not paying very much for the amps". The amps are class AB based on a preexisting SN design.

The only "negative" perhaps is only unbalanced outputs. I'll live with that.

A little something on a quiet day:

http://www.slipperybrick.com/2008/01/sherwood-debuts-new-flagship-av-receiver/

Wish they had more photos.

JP

Thanks for this post. You just saved my life! Okay maybe I'm being silly here but I almost caved into buying the Pioneer VSX94 today (I had a moment of weakness). I'm glad that I came back home and found these new posts. I wish I could have been there to see it and mostly hear it.

Did anyone see the OSD? Is it a plain-Jane DOS menu or is it a fancier GUI? Was anyone able to see if it had internet/lan connectivity?

Thanks again for the feedback!

BR

Bigrock66, I know what you mean! I'm thinking tax returns...Sherwood/Newcastle...acoustic correction for our cruddy floorplan...audio sweetness...

Now here me carefully: Back away from the Pioneer! Don't they all look sweet on the showroom floor?? We've got a Pioneer store in a nearby mall. Nothing against them, just keeping up with cheerleading etiquette here ;)

Thanks for that amazing description, RRS711! Now that's what we're talking about!

Did you mean unblanced outputs on the pre/pro? (Not really sure if I know what that means :o)

JP

JP,

Yes, it's always more tempting when you go out... I was felling down about not getting any (significant) news from the CES about the R-972. I actually listened to both the Pio 94 and the Denon 3808 today. I have to say that the Pio did sound pretty good (attached to some very sweet sounding NHT gear). I felt like I was at a peeler bar and wanted to take one home :eek:. Well, like I said, I am very glad to read that March is still on. Then we just have to wait for a Hi-Def (staying away from using the HD or BD acronyms) player that also does DVD-A and SACD (hopefully SN?? - keep dreaming).

Really would like to know about the OSD. As far as streaming Internet radio and AAC, the new Logitech Squeezebox Duo would do a fine job (minus the 400$ tag). All other avr's only work with Windows anyway (SN would follow suit); I'm a newly converted Mac-addict (and loving it!).

Please keep the info coming. I'm looking too!

BTW, Trinnov also announced that they signed a deal with Texas Instruments to provide the "Optimizer" feature-set in their DSP chips. I suspect that many other receiver brands will follow SN's move. Anyone wanna bet who? :D


BR

"I experienced (that is the correct word) a demo of the 972 and its DRC using Trinnov."

Thanks for the report, very exciting.

Big question however - do you know if the Trinnov you heard is the one that we'll get, or the $13K outboard pro version?

From another CES report Here (http://www.twice.com/article/CA6513795.html)

"Sherwood: The company is packaging its flagship Newcastle-series $1,799-suggested R-972 AV receiver with a high-end 7.2-channel speaker system featuring a choice of bookshelf or in-wall versions of two-way satellites, which incorporate horn-loaded tweeter and 6.5-inch vented woofer. They’ll be packaged with two sixth-order vented subwoofers, which, when combined with the receiver’s room-acoustics compensation circuitry, will deliver bass within 1dB accuracy within the listening area, the company said."

Interesting, did anyone hear more about this?

Thanks for this post. You just saved my life! Okay maybe I'm being silly here but I almost caved into buying the Pioneer VSX94 today (I had a moment of weakness). I'm glad that I came back home and found these new posts. I wish I could have been there to see it and mostly hear it.

Did anyone see the OSD? Is it a plain-Jane DOS menu or is it a fancier GUI? Was anyone able to see if it had internet/lan connectivity?

Thanks again for the feedback!

BR

They did NOT show any OSD screens. There were 2 units there. One was a static display with the rather other worldly Trinnov "3D" microphone array sitting on top. The other was used to demo the Trinnov capabilities. Does it work? YES and in a way. When the CENTER channel was "lifted" off the floor the effect was ghostly. When you heard the singer coming directly from the Center channel there was a REAL presence. But when the 'Trinnov' effect took over that same voice "hovered" above the R972, but almost sounded disembodied.

Remember, they are playing with the senses. I do not know that I would use the system in that way AND I feel that there is STILL some tweaking left to squeez that BIG processor into a little bitty chip.
The claim is that FOX studios uses the Trinnov to 'recreate' one of their LARGE sound stages in a smaller one to do their mixing and that the sound engineers say that the smaller sound stage now sounds exactly like the larger one. The ability to duplicated that 'space' is incredible if it is true--and I believe that it probably is. How accurate the "created" space is, remains to be seen--as far as the R972 is concerned.

As far as the 'basic' sound of the R972 is concerned, it appeared to produce a clean clear transparent sound. BUT, there was NO way to hear anything other than the very limited demo material used for the Trinnov demo.

I was disappointed (but really NOT surprised) to find that the R972 will NOT take any HDMI input down to Component, despite what any other web site may imply. It is not LEGAL, as far as HDCP is concerned, and to date NO ONE does it and never will--leagally.

The issue as to street date of the R972, according to Gary Graning, VP, is one of chip availability. He says their supplier has been unable to supply them and that is what is delaying the receiver. That could be OR is could be the difficulty in incorporating ALL the software & firmware necessary to make this unit do what is promised. Maybe a combination of both. But Mr. Graning says they will go to a different source, if the March/April timeframe is missed.

I was disappointed to find ONLY 4 HDMI inputs and only 1 output. According to Jeff, there is room for 8 on the main board, but it is not as simple as putting in additional sockets. There is an enormous amount of firmware required to get all those inputs to properly do the HDCP handshake. AND there is the PRICE. Even if one could do more inputs easily, from a marketing standpoint, that feature would go into the next model up with a series of additional upgrades.

As for my personal decision, I will wait till March/April to see what happens. I cannot afford to deal with the issues now experienced by with the Denon units (3808 & 4308) Of course who knows if that same thing won't happen to Sherwood?

GREAT CES - 3D HDTV, new Blu-ray players and Warner's announcement. Amazing technologies coming down the pike. The new Samsung BD-1500 looks promising and hopefully by Sunday I will post more info on that on the appropriate site.

Classico

"I experienced (that is the correct word) a demo of the 972 and its DRC using Trinnov."

Thanks for the report, very exciting.

Big question however - do you know if the Trinnov you heard is the one that we'll get, or the $13K outboard pro version?

That's a great question: The more I think about it, I think in fact it was the outboard unit: this is based on the fact that when he switched between "curves" he did so using the OSD, which is NOT output by the unit, afaik.

That said, Hipps said that the software in the unit will be the same. The only differences are the 1) no ODS of the settings in 972, and 2) 8 poles in the FIR filters not 30 as in the outboard.

I wonder if these are Axiom speakers, since Axiom is the big on-line speaker company that is selling S-N receivers, pre-pros, etc. Axiom is the "only" on-line source for S-N products.
Fantastic about the Trinnov system. As soon as I see that the Reon is implemented right in the 972 and is not needing firmware upgrades, I'll buy the 972. Sure looks boss in black.

From another CES report Here (http://www.twice.com/article/CA6513795.html)

"Sherwood: The company is packaging its flagship Newcastle-series $1,799-suggested R-972 AV receiver with a high-end 7.2-channel speaker system featuring a choice of bookshelf or in-wall versions of two-way satellites, which incorporate horn-loaded tweeter and 6.5-inch vented woofer. They’ll be packaged with two sixth-order vented subwoofers, which, when combined with the receiver’s room-acoustics compensation circuitry, will deliver bass within 1dB accuracy within the listening area, the company said."

Interesting, did anyone hear more about this?

As for my personal decision, I will wait till March/April to see what happens. I cannot afford to deal with the issues now experienced by with the Denon units (3808 & 4308) Of course who knows if that same thing won't happen to Sherwood?

Classico

First, thanks for the in-depth information on the R-972. Second, what issues are the Denon units having? I thought the 3808 was considered a very good unit but I haven't been following the owners thread lately so maybe that's changed.

I'm very much looking forward to hearing a 972 with my Klipsch. I hope it's a good match because the more I hear about the SN, the more I want one.

Greetings to all:

Although this may sound silly, I've had very little experience with the Optimizer's actual performance during the 3 years we've been working to bring it to market and I was as stunned by the Optimizer's performance as the reviewer who posted here.

To paraphrase from my presentation, accurate reproduction today requires the ability to recreate the soundfields as they were perceived by the recording engineer when the material was originally mixed/created. This requires both frequency fidelity and spatial fidelity. The Optimizer delivers both.

Although I have received questions on this forum regarding the sweet spot for the effects, I am happy to report that the sonic improvements were obvious from anywhere within the room--including where I stood during the demos which was off to the side and well out of the room's listening area.

I was able to offer the demo in two steps. The first restored frequency fidelity. The improvements were obvious. Hearing spatial accuracy restored made most of my audience laugh in surprise. The voice did rise from the floor to the plane of the front speakers. It also receded 3 feet. The rear speakers seemed to move away from the listener and the room seemed larger. The thing that may be hardest to describe was the sense of "rightness" the music took on when both frequency and spatial accuracy had been restored. My current theory is that the human ear/brain system is very sensitive to space. When only frequency accuracy had been restored we still heard two spaces: the original venue and the room we were in. Once spatial accuracy was also restored it felt as though my brain was able to relax. I could hear all of the material suddenly without effort.

We do have a 4-page brochure that describes the R-972 with a photo of the GUI, the remote, etc. If you'd like an electronic copy, please drop me a not at: jeff@sherwoodamerica.com

Jeff

Thanks Jeff. Email sent.

"The only differences are ... 8 poles in the FIR filters not 30 as in the outboard."

Yikes, that could have a very significant effect on performance.

Jeff, which Trinnov did the demo use?

Also will email you for the brochure.

Thanks

I have just sent the email for the brochure.

It's a pleasure to have news from you Stereojeff and I think you must be busy with the CES but can you tell us if there will be network LAN or wifi features in the R-972 ?

rrs1 and Noah:

We demonstrated the codes that will be resident in the R-972. We did not demo the professional codes. Both rely on a combination of FIR and IIR filters and have the same number of FIR taps. I am not authorized ato give complete details on the number of IIR filters, but it is not 7 versus 30. The actual difference is much smaller.

The other difference between the Sherwood code set and the pro version is the amount of boost available. To insure that our home unit does not run out of headroom, boost is limited to 6 dB. The professional version does not have this limitation.

Jeff

Hi Jeff,
Is March still looking like a realistic release date for the R-972?

I was disappointed (but really NOT surprised) to find that the R972 will NOT take any HDMI input down to Component, despite what any other web site may imply. It is not LEGAL, as far as HDCP is concerned, and to date NO ONE does it and never will--leagally.

"not LEGAL"? Please.

They could keep HDCP-implemented data by blocking protected feeds. Simple.

This was what everybody had said this thing would support. This sucks- BIGTIME- because I'm still stuck playing PS3 720p games in 480p. Bastards. Looks like a new TV will be my next purchase instead.

The HDMI can be taken down to Component. I have a unit that does it and is "legal". What cannot be done is to take "protected" content down to component. Isync HD/Pro hint hint.

Jeff,

Thanks for the Trinnov info, that's a relief.

Can you tell us more specifics about the memories (how many?) and user-tailorable response curves?

I'm particularly interested in how much control we'll have over the target response.

Are there fixed curves that we can choose between (if so, what are they?), or will we actually be able to shape the curves ourselves?

Thanks

The HDMI can be taken down to Component. I have a unit that does it and is "legal". What cannot be done is to take "protected" content down to component. Isync HD/Pro hint hint.

You can take unprotected content down to component--but in the world of Blu-ray or HD DVD all the studios are using the HDCP protocol and in discussing this issue with several manufacturers of AVRs and switchers they are loathe to take a chance on losing their license to play in the HDMI game, so they basically stay away from the HDMI to component configuration. BUMMER.

Classico

First, thanks for the in-depth information on the R-972. Second, what issues are the Denon units having? I thought the 3808 was considered a very good unit but I haven't been following the owners thread lately so maybe that's changed.

I'm very much looking forward to hearing a 972 with my Klipsch. I hope it's a good match because the more I hear about the SN, the more I want one.

Info on the 4308 and 3808 appears on the Denon forums to indicate that there is a firmware issue with the units 'properly' outputting 6.1 surround with a source (read blu-ray movie) that is encoded with 7.1. A proper operating unit would combine the 2 speaker outputs into a center rear channel. It is my understanding the the lower level Denons do not have that issue.

Some on the Denon forum have returned their units out of sheer frustration and gone to a Yamaha. Certainly lower street price--but I'm not sure about Yamaha musicality compared to Denon. I would be counting on the R972 to have a quality that many have raved about for the OUTLAW Audio products. But that remains to be heard. As I stated previously, the short demo was not particularly revealing, since there was no chance to hear any movie soundtracks or different types of music. I only hope it is MORE March tahn April.

Classice

If you go to Surround Rec'rs at www.ecoustics.com and read the reviews for the R-965 you will find out that the sound of SN is VASTLY superior to Outlaw, and competes with the finest separates. Nothing but glowing accolades in every review about the sound.

The truth is, sonically, the SN is in competition with the likes of the more expensive B&K and NAD rec'rs. It simply stomps on Onkyo, Yamaha, Denon, and Pioneer.

There is an irony, here, in the price of the SN. It will lead people to think it's in competition with the Denon, etc., rather than its true competitors sonically: B&K and NAD. Right, Jeff?

Info on the 4308 and 3808 appears on the Denon forums to indicate that there is a firmware issue with the units 'properly' outputting 6.1 surround with a source (read blu-ray movie) that is encoded with 7.1. A proper operating unit would combine the 2 speaker outputs into a center rear channel. It is my understanding the the lower level Denons do not have that issue.

Some on the Denon forum have returned their units out of sheer frustration and gone to a Yamaha. Certainly lower street price--but I'm not sure about Yamaha musicality compared to Denon. I would be counting on the R972 to have a quality that many have raved about for the OUTLAW Audio products. But that remains to be heard. As I stated previously, the short demo was not particularly revealing, since there was no chance to hear any movie soundtracks or different types of music. I only hope it is MORE March tahn April.

Classice


Okay, that's good to know, even though I only run a 5.1 setup. The 3808 is my backup choice to the R-972. Features-wise I think the SN is ahead of it but I won't know if it's a winner until I hear it with my Klipsch. Sound quality is my primary concern and I have no experience with SN. Plus, the 972 is above my self-imposed price range. It's going to have to live up to the hype for me to spend the extra money. I'm willing to do it, though. It really sounds like SN has a winner in the 972.

Thanks for the reply.

This is not "hype":

UltimateAV: "This is one great sounding rec'r. I can't remember the last time I had this kind of reaction to a rec'r. It delivered excellent audio performance in two channel and multichanel modes"

If you go to Surround Rec'rs at www.ecoustics.com and read the reviews for the R-965 you will find out that the sound of SN is VASTLY superior to Outlaw, and competes with the finest separates. Nothing but glowing accolades in every review about the sound.
Vastly superior to what Outlaw? I ask because the Model 990 is based on the R-965 platform, with the amps removed, balanced outputs added, DVI switching added, and some software changes.

This is not "hype":

UltimateAV: "This is one great sounding rec'r. I can't remember the last time I had this kind of reaction to a rec'r. It delivered excellent audio performance in two channel and multichanel modes"

Perhaps hype is the wrong word. Expectations, perhaps? And I'm talking about my personal expectations.

BTW, UltimateAV is saying that about the R-972? How is that possible if it's not out? Is the quote in regard to the 965? If so, I take it as a very good sign for the 972 but won't assume that the conclusion will be the same.

Hope I don't sound like I'm down on the SN. I'm not. I don't spend my AV money lightly, especially for a high-end receiver. I've put the 972 at the top of my list based on this thread alone and without any firsthand experience with SN. I'll get that once the 972 comes out. If I like the sound (I'm very picky, unfortunately) then the SN will have a home in my rack for many years to come.

If you go to Surround Rec'rs at www.ecoustics.com and read the reviews for the R-965 you will find out that the sound of SN is VASTLY superior to Outlaw, and competes with the finest separates. Nothing but glowing accolades in every review about the sound.

The truth is, sonically, the SN is in competition with the likes of the more expensive B&K and NAD rec'rs. It simply stomps on Onkyo, Yamaha, Denon, and Pioneer.

There is an irony, here, in the price of the SN. It will lead people to think it's in competition with the Denon, etc., rather than its true competitors sonically: B&K and NAD. Right, Jeff?

Thanks for you response. BUT (and it is a BIG BUT) how does one make a sonic comparison with 2 different technologies. It is really like comparing apples and oranges. It cannot be overstated how significant the audio/video challenges are with implementing HDMI. At CES the R972 prototype was running in EXTin for the demo. It sounded credible, with the limited material being used.

Yes, I am aware that the amplifier technology would hold its own, but the signal getting to the amp is what is in question here. NEVERTHELESS, with the SN reputation for superb sound it is hoped that their pursuit of excellence will continue. We wait with bated breath!--until March or April.

And let's not forget about their video implementation. We are counting on that being solid also. Reon chip is good news. I would hate to wait for 3 or 4 months for nothing. SN's claim is "The Most Advanced A/V Receiver on the Planet". Let's hope they make good on that.

Classico

"how does one make a sonic comparison with 2 different technologies."

By listening.

I have now printed out the brochure on the 972. It will have "USB input and output". Would that enable us to play itrax tracks we have downloaded into our computer from the internet in the 972 via a USB cable from our computer to the 972? Opinion please, Tempus06.

I have just sent the email for the brochure.

It's a pleasure to have news from you Stereojeff and I think you must be busy with the CES but can you tell us if there will be network LAN or wifi features in the R-972 ?

Jeff,

Thanks for sending the brochure.

Regarding the target curves, do any of them include a "house curve", with a rising low end?

I see that there's a bass control, but as is typical, it's centered at 100 Hz and wouldn't boost the deep bass much.

"Target Curves: Every room correction system must work to a target. On the R-972, the original performance targets include: Laboratory flat, Audiophile, Accurate and Front. When the filters to achieve these targets have been implemented, the user can select to remap his speakers so they conform to either the ITU Standard for Surround Music or the SMPTE Cinema Standard. These choices can even be stored by input making it easy to assign the Audiophile target with ITU remapping for the CD input and to use the Accurate target with SMPTE Cinema remapping for DVD’s.

"how does one make a sonic comparison with 2 different technologies."

By listening.


That assumes that you have BOTH technologies available to comapre. That is NOT the case in trying to compare the R972 with anything--to date.

Classico

Noah:

Our intent with the Audiophile curve is to please those who believe the low end should exhibit a gentle rise from 100 Hz down.

Jeff

Fresno:

Our current implementation (R-965 and P-965) plays .wav files from a computer via USB. I do not yet have full details on the new model, but I would certainly expect that we will at least maintain that capability.

Jeff

I'll keep it simple:

HD Radio?

Do any of you guys wonder why there aren't more people excited about this receiver? I mean, after reading the brochure (thanks Jeff), I can't help but think this is going to be one hell of a receiver. Is it simply a case of others going with the names they know (Denon, Yamaha, Pioneer, etc)? Given the specs on the R-972 I would think the people here, with their high technical knowledge, would be all over the SN. There are plenty of very large 'anticipation' threads. What am I missing?

looking at the rear pic from the brochure, is that an ethernet port I see above the component output?

looking at the rear pic from the brochure, is that an ethernet port I see above the component output?

SN is using the USB for communications with your computer and the internet. It was mentioned by SN officials at CES that the decision to leave out ethernet was 1)cost and 2)time to implement.

I was also disappointed in having ONLY 100 watts/channel on their "flagship" model. But at the price point and with all the other features, 100 watts is certainly reasonable. One can only hope that the watts are BIG watts with a bit of conservative rating.

Classico

Do any of you guys wonder why there aren't more people excited about this receiver? I mean, after reading the brochure (thanks Jeff), I can't help but think this is going to be one hell of a receiver. Is it simply a case of others going with the names they know (Denon, Yamaha, Pioneer, etc)? Given the specs on the R-972 I would think the people here, with their high technical knowledge, would be all over the SN. There are plenty of very large 'anticipation' threads. What am I missing?

I was wondering the same thing. But consider that this unit was actually shown at the 2007 CES and never materialized. It appears that it will be released in the March/April timeframe. However, I read many of the Home Theater/Audio magazines and cannot remember Sherwood doing ANY significant advertising (if any at all)

If the R972 performs as advertised, then word of mouth will set this unit ablaze, create a severe shortage, raising prices and then everyone will be happy--or not.

Classico

Jeff mentioned early on in this thread that the 100 watts per channel rating was very conservative.

Noah:

Our intent with the Audiophile curve is to please those who believe the low end should exhibit a gentle rise from 100 Hz down.

Jeff

:D:cool::D:cool::D

Roughly how man dB's will the response rise below 100Hz?

Do any of you guys wonder why there aren't more people excited about this receiver?

Fear of the unknown? If these were sold at Best Buy or Circuit City it might be a different story. Personally, I only found this brand/unit after two or three months of doing homework on my next AVR purchase (my Marantz 7000 is eleven years old or so--but otherwise, still amazing). Even with all the that I've read it is still going to be a sight unseen type of purchase for me. Then again, I work a few miles from the Digital Connection retailer in Huntington Beach, CA so if luck is on my side I might actually get to hear one. :eek:

Thanks, Jeff, for the PDF.

Still haven't ruled out the 872, but this 972 is really looking like a no-brainer!

JP

Jeff,

"Our intent with the Audiophile curve is to please those who believe the low end should exhibit a gentle rise from 100 Hz down."

Perfect!

And the Room2 feature of autoswitching the back surrounds to Zone 2 is much appreciated, just what I need for my garage speakers.

Does it also slope down the treble, or is there a Cinema EQ that can be additionally applied?

"That assumes that you have BOTH technologies available to comapre. That is NOT the case in trying to compare the R972 with anything--to date."

Sorry, I thought your point was that different technologies can't be compared.

"Do any of you guys wonder why there aren't more people excited about this receiver?"

More than 700 posts for this long of a wait doesn't seem too bad, and as 9suffix alluded to, it will take more effort to obtain than the big brands.

Do any of you guys wonder why there aren't more people excited about this receiver? I mean, after reading the brochure (thanks Jeff), I can't help but think this is going to be one hell of a receiver. Is it simply a case of others going with the names they know (Denon, Yamaha, Pioneer, etc)? Given the specs on the R-972 I would think the people here, with their high technical knowledge, would be all over the SN. There are plenty of very large 'anticipation' threads. What am I missing?

I think there are a number of us that are excited about the R-972, we're just not posting. The specs are very impressive and it's at the top of my list to replace my Marantz SR8000. I think the wait is the problem with the fewer then 'normal' postings, per an email from SN, it now looks like May for delivery here in the states. Looks like more waiting...

...outside of the US (at least in Germany) the Newcastle supplier is extremely slow and unprofessional regarding marketing - at least thats my impression after contacting them a couple of times on their last pre/pro.
Their last pre/pro made quite a wave here in different test-magazines, but in Germany so far there is no information at all on their new product line...

...I am really really really interested in their new pre/pro, but considering the lack of information and my almost two year wait for a new pre/pro I like makes me tend to the Nad T175 which is just around the corner... I don't expect the new Sherwood pre/pro to arrive in 2008 and thats just a too long wait... if it would be march or april or even may I'd be happy to wait, but the german Newcastle division seems to be sound asleep.... :-(

Cheers

S

Many of you have seen rec'r reviews where the power output with 7 channels driven plummets from the published specs.

So I decided to check on the multi-channel power output for the R-965, rated at 120 watts per channel into 8 ohms.

In one review, with 7 chans driven into 8 ohms at 0.1% THD, the R-965 put out 109.6 watts per channel; at 1% THD, it output 126 watts per channel. (Freq. not specified; probably 1kHz.)

In the UltimateAV review, with 7 chans driven into 8 ohms, they got 108 watts per channel a 20 Hz with 1% THD; at 1k Hz. 113 watts per channel with 1% THD.

This clearly shows that SNs are not in the class of rec'rs with plumetting 7 chan power output. Indeed, the R-965 essentially met its spec of 120 per chan; 7 chans driven.

I'll keep it simple:

HD Radio?

I'll second this. Any ideas?

Gentlemen:

HD Radio will not be included in the R-972.

As to questions about the Audiophile target curve, we intend to offer an upper mid-range "BBC" dip. For the very highest frequencies we will follow the recommendations of experts like Dr. David Rich and will have a gentle roll off.

Jeff