Did anyone else catch that the logo on Jeff's PDF for DTS's lossless codec is DTS-HD and not DTS HD MA?

And the Room2 feature of autoswitching the back surrounds to Zone 2 is much appreciated, just what I need for my garage speakers.


Noah...

I was wondering how I might use Zone 2. My garage is directly underneath my HT and I've wanted music down there... now I can do that with video, too. It would be incredibly easy to run a set of speaker and video cables downstairs. What an epiphany... thanks:D!!!

Did anyone else catch that the logo on Jeff's PDF for DTS's lossless codec is DTS-HD and not DTS HD MA?

Yes, I did! Thankfully, the Key Information section lists DTS Master Audio HD. I'm guessing the DTS HD logo covers MA (and HR [High Resolution])?

JP

If the 972 meets its potential, then likely I will be looking to replace my 905 when the pre/pro comes out.

I was wondering the same thing. But consider that this unit was actually shown at the 2007 CES and never materialized. It appears that it will be released in the March/April timeframe. However, I read many of the Home Theater/Audio magazines and cannot remember Sherwood doing ANY significant advertising (if any at all)

If the R972 performs as advertised, then word of mouth will set this unit ablaze, create a severe shortage, raising prices and then everyone will be happy--or not.

Classico


I suspect the long delay is contributing to the lack of buzz. I also suspect there are a number of lurkers who will get involved once the 972 is released.

700 posts in this thread is pretty respectable but I think there are a lot of posts from a small number of people.


Anyway, I guess my post was more a reaction to reading the PDF, being so impressed by it and then wondering why more people weren't getting involved in the discussion.

Do any of you guys wonder why there aren't more people excited about this receiver? I mean, after reading the brochure (thanks Jeff), I can't help but think this is going to be one hell of a receiver. Is it simply a case of others going with the names they know (Denon, Yamaha, Pioneer, etc)? Given the specs on the R-972 I would think the people here, with their high technical knowledge, would be all over the SN. There are plenty of very large 'anticipation' threads. What am I missing?

I can only speak for myself, but will give you my perspective.

Firstly, I have been watching this thread and the SN products ever since Axiom announced their partnership with SN. I am a very satisfied Axiom customer of five years.

Over the past two years I’ve owned in the neighborhood of six different receivers. I’ve been on the cutting edge of HD audio from HD/DVD and BR since it was first rolled out.

Out of those six HDMI equipped receivers, only my latest has worked correctly out of the box (Denon 3808). Admittingly, I do not use the internet radio features, so I can not comment on how well that works, but everything else just works. I’ve also been watching all the different Onkyo, Integra, Cary, Rotel, NAD, Yamaha, Denon, Marantz and Anthem threads. There has yet to be one pre/pro or receiver that works currently. Hell, I was totally on board with the NAD 175 until they decided to drop HBR audio processing.

In addition to HDMI audio processors, I’ve also had similar (bad) luck with external Video Processors and HD/DVD and BR players.

Considering my past experience with HMDI audio processing, I refuse to get excited over any new product. On paper, the SN gear looks fabulous. Only time will tell if they work correctly though. I’ll continue to silently watch as it hits the streets and users report back. I bet I'm not the only one who feels this way.

If you go to Surround Rec'rs at www.ecoustics.com and read the reviews for the R-965 you will find out that the sound of SN is VASTLY superior to Outlaw, and competes with the finest separates. Nothing but glowing accolades in every review about the sound.

The truth is, sonically, the SN is in competition with the likes of the more expensive B&K and NAD rec'rs. It simply stomps on Onkyo, Yamaha, Denon, and Pioneer.

There is an irony, here, in the price of the SN. It will lead people to think it's in competition with the Denon, etc., rather than its true competitors sonically: B&K and NAD. Right, Jeff?

Having owned a 965, and now a current owner of a Denon 3808ci....not so much. The Denon clearly sounds better, particularly for movies. Whether that's a function of the Audyessy EQ vs. SNAP, or hardware, it's a noticeable improvement. Nothing in the room has changed other than the exchange of units. Speakers are same, acoustic treatments are the same, etc.

Where it is extremely evident is in the dialogue channels of movies. And that was apparent out of the box. Very good separation.

I also found the Denon video processing to be superior. Granted, the 965 is several years old at this point, but there you go.

I was pleased with the SN fro the most part. My dislikes were the remote codes- awful. And the horrible auto source sensor- i.e., EVERYTHING defaulted to Dolby Digital ES, no matter what the source. Drove me nuts on DTS tracks. Always had to go into the menu and switch back. And then if I turned the DVD player off, when I restarted via autoreturn, it screwed up again. It also defaulted if I changed inputs while watching. Say I wanted to watch TV, and jumped from the DVD, then back again. Had to change sound fields AGAIN. And sometimes Dolby Prologic IIx Music woudl turn itself on, and NOT let it self be turned off via remote. Had to get up and do it. Poor implementation of sound field processing, for sure. And, that darn remote.

It got very tiresome.

All those problems aside, I was in the market for another AVR, one with HDMI switching. CES....2007(!!!) and SN seemed to have the answer. I was ready to pull the trigger. Well, CES 2008 has come and gone, and......hmmmmm....

I am happy with the Denon. The only mistake I made was buying the 3808 and not the 4308. You can't overstate enough how important having DUAL HDMI outputs is. Every switcher I've tried is junk.

Hey, I'll sell the 3808ci for a good price, so I can justify buying the 4308...let me know ;)

I have sent an email to receive a brochure and yet no anwer, as for my questions on DLNA and Wifi (related to the thick antenna on the upper left of the R-972 pictures) but for the latest it seems that there will only be some USB in and out. As an IT professional for me it's bad news as USB is the worst choice for network use.

Could any of the lucky members who received the brochure post it on www.megaupload.com and post the link on this thread ? Thanks in advance.

I've seen in the latest thread that the release date of R-972 maybe postponed to April or May, do you have any comment on this Jeff ?

Jeff,

"As to questions about the Audiophile target curve, we intend to offer an upper mid-range "BBC" dip. For the very highest frequencies we will follow the recommendations of experts like Dr. David Rich and will have a gentle roll off."

Excellent!

"I think the wait is the problem with the fewer then 'normal' postings, per an email from SN, it now looks like May for delivery here in the states."

Not so excellent.

Is SN at least taking any measures (beta testing with a variety of systems etc) to help the 972 hit the ground running?

As mdrew perfectly expressed, most components w/HDMI aren't safe to buy until a few months after their release, if ever.

Ditto for that other potential minefield, automatic room correction. I hope that the setup procedure is being comprehensively tested for robustness.

One thing it should have going for it is the memories. If it's like other systems, results will vary with changes in mike position (or the same position for that matter), and being able to save the current result is very nice.

For example, if you gets a nice result with Audyssey, you have to weigh the risk of trying for a better one vs. possibbly never equalling the current one.

"On paper, the SN gear looks fabulous. Only time will tell if they work correctly though. I’ll continue to silently watch as it hits the streets and users report back. I bet I'm not the only one who feels this way."

Krister, glad I could help, and I hadn't even thought of video :)

The reasons I like SN and am considering them for my next receiver (even though I really wish for 2 HDMI outs - can't have everything I guess - and its a lot cheaper to split HDMI than it is to buy a trinnov standalone :) )

I had a single-CD SN player and the sound quality was the best of any CD Player I'd ever heard - it was very smooth but detailed (the gears to spin up the disc gave out or I would still be using it). I just bought it becuase it was some inexpensive refurbished clearout online and I liked the DAC specs but it ended up being one of my favorite peices of audio gear.

It sounds petty but I am tired of the big name bull___ - I really hate when someone comes over and says "Oh you have brand xyz" and they go off about how much it costs or their thoughts on the brand. I personally don't like those conversations - I want people to come over and enjoy the movie/music and not come in with preconceived brand notions. Sherwood Newcastle flies "under the radar" that way - its fun when people do the "Sherwood Newcastle huh, never heard of them" and just enjoy the experience rather than picking on the sound and trying to determine in their minds whether its worth the price they know it costs. Or its even better when they think its the low end sherwood brand their dad has in their basement.

I was pleased with the SN fro the most part. My dislikes were the remote codes- awful. And the horrible auto source sensor- i.e., EVERYTHING defaulted to Dolby Digital ES, no matter what the source. Drove me nuts on DTS tracks. Always had to go into the menu and switch back. And then if I turned the DVD player off, when I restarted via autoreturn, it screwed up again. It also defaulted if I changed inputs while watching. Say I wanted to watch TV, and jumped from the DVD, then back again. Had to change sound fields AGAIN. And sometimes Dolby Prologic IIx Music woudl turn itself on, and NOT let it self be turned off via remote. Had to get up and do it. Poor implementation of sound field processing, for sure. And, that darn remote.

It got very tiresome.



So one is asking this question--With the SN R972 is Sherwood ready for prime time? It appears that for one reason or another, they do NOT get wide distribution. But then again neither does ARCAM, Naim or Anthem. Sherwood pretty much stays 'under' the radar. But are the proplems quoted above typical? For me, that kind of 'lapse' in performance is a non-starter. If they can't get the BASICS right, then I am skeptical about the rest of SNs performance.

Also, how will they respond to performance issues with this NEW technology? Without a substantial distribution & Mfg. repair channel how can they fix what is wrong if it is MORE than a firmware issue? Shipping the unit back is NO answer. In other words, they MUST get it right the FIRST time, and I believe that is going to be part of the delay.

But with these and other issues why am I still willing to wait on the SN R972? Because I am already familiar with what Denon, Yamaha, et al, can do. This is truly a 'giant' leap into the future. I am willing to gamble that they will get it right--even though I have doubts that they can make it right (easily) if there are initial problems. That is the plight of the 'early adopters'.

I would feel a lot better is JEFF would respond to this issue with words of assurance about support and Sherwood's ability to respond to any hardware issues that might come up. Are they doing field tests with REAL end-users who will put the R972 through things the engineers haven't encountered in their 'theoretical' world? JEFF, the world (not to mention those on this forum) await your response.

Classico

To be fair, Jeff has always been as forthcoming as he can on these PUBLIC forums. the best way to get in touch with him, as always, is to send him an email to his sherwood address. His email is available on the Sherwood website.

He responnds much better to that address. As you may or may not know, as this AVS forum is not affiliated with S-N in any way shape, or form.

FreddyW,

I understand your point. However, Jeff has responded to KEY questions on this forum and has helped clear up some very important questions. The questions I pose are key to helping others on this forum understand Sherwood's position. I do not have the opinion that Jeff would 'dodge' these issues. In previous posts he has been candid and forthcoming, and I see no reason that his position would change now. If I stand alone in my queries as posted above, then I will remain silent regarding them hereafter. But if I am voicing concerns that others also have then they are issues deserving of response on this forum.

Respectfully,
Classico

My question for Jeff is?

If we are to consider the SQ and build quality of SN flagships to be competitive with NAD/Rotel/B&K etal; why does Sherwood Newcastle not publish the "X watts/channel, all channels driven, @ 4 ohms (20 to 20k) at rated distortion" spec?

If the 972 meets its potential, then likely I will be looking to replace my 905 when the pre/pro comes out.


i wasn't aware. is the a pre/pro coming also?

FreddyW,

I understand your point. However, Jeff has responded to KEY questions on this forum and has helped clear up some very important questions. The questions I pose are key to helping others on this forum understand Sherwood's position. I do not have the opinion that Jeff would 'dodge' these issues. In previous posts he has been candid and forthcoming, and I see no reason that his position would change now. If I stand alone in my queries as posted above, then I will remain silent regarding them hereafter. But if I am voicing concerns that others also have then they are issues deserving of response on this forum.

Respectfully,
Classico

Ah, you had me until "deserving of response on this forum." While he has been forthcoming, and I've spoke to Jeff here and via email for several years, it's a shame that many people seem to think that he owes it to them to answer in a public forum. I'm not saying you do, but if you look back in this (long) thread you will see people complaining and threatening "not to buy" if he doesn't answer. And that's a shame.

One reason knowedge of SN is not widespread is that like other companies. e.g. NAD, B&K, Arcam, their products are only available through B&M dealers, and not on the internet (except for the occasional unauthorized site). Denon, et. al., on the other hand, are all over the internet with multiple dealers, authorized and not.

The average person has heard of Denon, Pioneer, Yamaha, etc; he knows nothing of B&K, NAD, Rotel, Arcam, or SN.

The magazines and web sites which review rec'rs do not help the situation. For whatever reason, they heavily review the common brands, and only occasinally review the others. For example, the B&K AVR507 rec'r has been out for several years now. It has NEVER been reviewed by anyone.

Pushed back to May now?

Seems like it will be out of my running, then. Already waited a year...

As I read through these posts I think there are three issues: why is there no buzz about this receiver; what's the process when and if something breaks; will it work correctly out of the box.

All three seem to be requests for reassurance.

I can offer this:

1. We are very good at manufacturing audio gear.
2. We care about performance as much as any reader on this forum.
3. We recognize our obligations and stand behind our products.

Those who participated on this site and elsewhere with our '65 series know well that we upgraded the units, added features and even gave hardware to our early adopters to enable the new tools. I'm not aware of any manufacturer who has offered this level of support.

I can also add that we are often late with our branded equipment. It can be hard to find as we have little retail distribution. No matter how much testing we do in advance, some bugs will make it to market.

For additional reassurance, each of you knows how to reach the guy at the top of the Sherwood pyramid...and he cares about the outcome.

Jeff

Maybe my post about buzz was some sort of subconscious search for reassurance but it wasn't my conscious reason. I was simply wondering why this fantastic looking receiver was seemingly being overlooked by a very knowledgeable forum. The features and specs scream 'quality product'.

Thanks, Jeff.

I may or may not have enough coin to pull the trigger when the new units come out (R-872/R-972), but I certainly enjoy reading this forum, including your comments, of course, in anticipation of building my dream theater setup.

I'm also looking forward to the updated web site. My enthusiasim for the R-972 has convinced friends of mine to check it out. Except for the recent PDF (thanks!) I really had nowhere for them to go to see the receiver.

JP

Tempus06:

I sent copies of the R-972 brochure to everyone who requested it. If you didn't receive a copy, then I didn't get your request or the internet gods aren't smiling upon us. Please re-send your request and I will try again.

Jeff

As I read through these posts I think there are three issues: why is there no buzz about this receiver; what's the process when and if something breaks; will it work correctly out of the box.

All three seem to be requests for reassurance.

I can offer this:

1. We are very good at manufacturing audio gear.
2. We care about performance as much as any reader on this forum.
3. We recognize our obligations and stand behind our products.

Those who participated on this site and elsewhere with our '65 series know well that we upgraded the units, added features and even gave hardware to our early adopters to enable the new tools. I'm not aware of any manufacturer who has offered this level of support.

I can also add that we are often late with our branded equipment. It can be hard to find as we have little retail distribution. No matter how much testing we do in advance, some bugs will make it to market.

For additional reassurance, each of you knows how to reach the guy at the top of the Sherwood pyramid...and he cares about the outcome.

Jeff

Jeff,
I am certain that you have a difficult job. So much is out of your hands. I think I speak for many, that you have been a 'stand-up' guy and have provided as much information as good business practice will allow. You have given me confidence that a decision for the SN R972 will be rewarded with a product, that if not perfected at the time, will be made right, in due course.

How you accomplish that is perhaps for another discussion when the unit becomes available. And regarding that, has there been any further update?

Thanks again for pouring oil on troubled (or should I say excited) waters. Dare I say that the expectations driven by the SN announcement will only last so long--but better to wait for a working product than to rush one pre-maturely to market.

Thanks again,
Classico

Jeff,

I appreciate the straight talk.

Will SN spec dynamic power for the 972?

When might the 972 product manual be online or or available via pdf?

Thanks

Those who participated on this site and elsewhere with our '65 series know well that we upgraded the units, added features and even gave hardware to our early adopters to enable the new tools. I'm not aware of any manufacturer who has offered this level of support.

I am/was an early owner of the P-965, and can wholeheartedly confirm that statement above. At its pricepoint, there is no other company that with the same kind support and feature additions after I had the product in my hands.

I am still enjoying my P-965, but this is an upgrade year for me, and the new S/N looks to be the target.

9suffix... shhhh stop telling all your friends! - we need there to be enough 972s for us.. THEN once we all have em tell your friends and have them over for a listen :p

Jeff, I just want to say thanks for your involvment and your care for your product. That means a lot to me - it also goes a long way in justifying spending 1500+ on audio equip. If I know my money is going to a company that cares about the product and their customers its a whole lot easier (and makes it easier to tell the wife LOL).

:) Count me as one of those anxiously awaiting the release.. let us know if there is some sort of advanced ordering program. Before I would be uneasy about that but your message and cschang's confirmation calm those fears.

9suffix... shhhh stop telling all your friends! - we need there to be enough 972s for us.. THEN once we all have em tell your friends and have them over for a listen :p

:eek::eek: Good point, chrhon!!!

Hmm, maybe I could even charge admission into my place to help offset the upgrade. ;)

JP

Jeff-

On this page alone, February/March and April/May are given as release dates for the R-972. Could you please give us the correct release date, or most current estimate.

Thanks

Ah, you had me until "deserving of response on this forum." While he has been forthcoming, and I've spoke to Jeff here and via email for several years, it's a shame that many people seem to think that he owes it to them to answer in a public forum. I'm not saying you do, but if you look back in this (long) thread you will see people complaining and threatening "not to buy" if he doesn't answer. And that's a shame.

:clap:

glennQ

Jeff- I am very glad to see what you say here. I just read on the Onkyo 905 thread, pp. 149, 150 and 151, the three latest pages as of today, Jan. 17, 2008. I urge you to read them, Jeff. I urge those of you waiting for the S-N 972 and thinking of jumping to another brand due to the wait to read them too. They are an eye-opener.
And why, why, OH MY GOD, why is that discussion relevant to the 972 and not hopelessly and criminally OT? Well, because (1) the nightmare going on over there could conceivably befall purchasers of the 972 if S-N were not so committed to great customer service and because (2) reading that discussion on the Onkyo 905 thread might save some poor soul from stepping into that mess due to impatience over the introduction of the 972.

As I read through these posts I think there are three issues: why is there no buzz about this receiver; what's the process when and if something breaks; will it work correctly out of the box.

All three seem to be requests for reassurance.

I can offer this:

1. We are very good at manufacturing audio gear.
2. We care about performance as much as any reader on this forum.
3. We recognize our obligations and stand behind our products.

Those who participated on this site and elsewhere with our '65 series know well that we upgraded the units, added features and even gave hardware to our early adopters to enable the new tools. I'm not aware of any manufacturer who has offered this level of support.

I can also add that we are often late with our branded equipment. It can be hard to find as we have little retail distribution. No matter how much testing we do in advance, some bugs will make it to market.

For additional reassurance, each of you knows how to reach the guy at the top of the Sherwood pyramid...and he cares about the outcome.

Jeff

As I read through these posts I think there are three issues: why is there no buzz about this receiver; what's the process when and if something breaks; will it work correctly out of the box.

All three seem to be requests for reassurance.

I can offer this:

1. We are very good at manufacturing audio gear.
2. We care about performance as much as any reader on this forum.
3. We recognize our obligations and stand behind our products.

Those who participated on this site and elsewhere with our '65 series know well that we upgraded the units, added features and even gave hardware to our early adopters to enable the new tools. I'm not aware of any manufacturer who has offered this level of support.

I can also add that we are often late with our branded equipment. It can be hard to find as we have little retail distribution. No matter how much testing we do in advance, some bugs will make it to market.

For additional reassurance, each of you knows how to reach the guy at the top of the Sherwood pyramid...and he cares about the outcome.

Jeff

Jeff- regarding your retail distribution issues. To be honest, I really think you need to go to an internet distibution, or, allow online retailers to sell your product. SN product appeals to either audiophiles, or people who like to go for the more "obscure" insider brands. Stick with brick and mortar where you can, but loosen the restraints on the web guys. I had to go through grey channels to get my 965 a few years ago, because there were no stores within a few hundred miles of Philadelphia.

Also, as an aside, SN will really, really, REALLY miss the boat if you do not put DUAL HDMI outputs on your flagship model, ala the Denon 4308. That's not really an option not to do so on a "high-end piece."

Hey, AVRs have used dual component outs for years, what's the diffrerence, other than that insane HDCP crap.

Jeff,

No problemo I've sent it.

As I already said I live in France and there's a lot of rumors here on knowing if there will be importers for Europe.

Could you please confirm me that there won't be any issue on this ?

Thanks again for your dedication.

Does anyone know (I'm want to give Jeff a break from my stream of questions) if current SN's like the 965 have direct remote access to surround levels?

As promised Jeff sent me a copy of the brochure, he is a man of word and I really appreciate that.

I stop also my questions and bow in respect.

I’ll go ahead and throw my hat into the ring as another person eagerly awaiting the R-972.

Although this is only my second post, I’ve been reading these forums for several years to keep up-to-date with new receivers in the hopes of finding a compelling reason to upgrade my aging Denon AVR-2805. With the impressive slate of receivers available, this might be the year I pull the trigger.

In a way, this post is a bit premature because the R-972 cannot be fully evaluated until it is publicly available. Nevertheless, its feature set matches my interests better than any of the other receiver on my list of potential candidates, which includes

Denon AVR-3808CI
Onkyo TX-NR905
Pioneer VSX-94TXH
Sherwood R-972
Yamaha RX-V3800

If I had to give my subjective ranking of these at this point, it might look something like the following:

Hardware
1. Sherwood
2. Onkyo
3. Denon/Pioneer/Yamaha

Feature Implementation
1. Denon
2. Pioneer/Yamaha
3. Onkyo
??? Sherwood

On-Screen Display
1. Denon/Sherwood
2. Onkyo/Yamaha
3. Pioneer

Front-Panel Display
1. Denon/Sherwood
2. Onkyo
3. Pioneer/Yamaha

Aesthetics
1. Denon/Pioneer
2. Sherwood/Yamaha
3. Onkyo

The biggest question in my mind though is how well Sherwood will do with the implementation of their new receiver. If that is on par with the Denon, then the R-972 will indeed be a no-brainer choice for me.

Of course, I will have to wait and see how the R-972 performs in practice, but there are several reasons to be optimistic. One is the manufacturing experience of Sherwood. Another is their demonstrated commitment to both individual and corporate customers. Sherwood is one of the few mainstream manufactures here that has a high-level employee (Jeff) participate in forum discussions. That suggests to me that user-feedback on their products as well as their competitors' is being utilized in the development process. In addition, they are one of the few manufactures that advertise their product as being firmware-upgradeable and make upgrades available on their official website. Finally, with the inclusion of Trinnov, a new GUI, and HDMI 1.3b, Sherwood does appear to be positioning the R-972 as a product to showcase the very latest state-of-the-art receiver technology.

Lastly, I am very impressed with the attention to detail being paid to the design of the R-972. For instance, it is nice to see, in the brochure, that the volume setting is displayed with full-sized characters as opposed to the 1/2 – 2/3 sized ones used in other receivers. Also, in the back-panel picture, it can be seen that all I/O cards are installed vertically. This should provide for better component cooling than the horizontal installations utilized in many other receivers.

So, thank you Jeff for sending me the brochure and for your participation in this thread. I’m looking forward to finding out how well the R-972 performs in the real-world.

Disclaimer: I am just an average Joe consumer and not affiliated with Sherwood in any way, nor do I receive any profits from the sale of their products.

I’ll go ahead and throw my hat into the ring as another person eagerly awaiting the R-972.

Although this is only my second post, I’ve been reading these forums for several years to keep up-to-date with new receivers in the hopes of finding a compelling reason to upgrade my aging Denon AVR-2805. With the impressive slate of receivers available, this might be the year I pull the trigger.

In a way, this post is a bit premature because the R-972 cannot be fully evaluated until it is publicly available. Nevertheless, its feature set matches my interests better than any of the other receiver on my list of potential candidates, which includes

Denon AVR-3808CI
Onkyo TX-NR905
Pioneer VSX-94TXH
Sherwood R-972
Yamaha RX-V3800

If I had to give my subjective ranking of these at this point, it might look something like the following:

Hardware
1. Sherwood
2. Onkyo
3. Denon/Pioneer/Yamaha

Feature Implementation
1. Denon
2. Pioneer/Yamaha
3. Onkyo
??? Sherwood

On-Screen Display
1. Denon/Sherwood
2. Onkyo/Yamaha
3. Pioneer

Front-Panel Display
1. Denon/Sherwood
2. Onkyo
3. Pioneer/Yamaha

Aesthetics
1. Denon/Pioneer
2. Sherwood/Yamaha
3. Onkyo



Well things even out. I just dropped out of the "eagerly awaiting" list. I am shocked with my choice but I am not looking back until I get infected with upgradeitis!

I did get the Pio 94 and really like it. Yes, I am fully aware that it's not the 972 and will not surpass it in sound (and the OSD).

I kind of agree with your list with a few exceptions. Pio far exceeds any of these in aesthetics (very subjective of course) and front panel display. If there is a list of top 10 On-Screen-Displays, Pio is #11. It really is bad looking (but functions very very well). That said, the OSD is not the most important feature of a receiver. Far from it. One thing I have come to appreciate with the PIO is the source selection knob on the left. I think that the 972 will work the same way. I also like the display on the 972. Reminds me a lot of the HK340 that I had.

Hawkeye, all of these units you are looking at are awsome. I don't care if anyone says otherwise. You will be happy with any. You might want to add the Marantz SR8002 to your list. It often gets overlooked and it shouldn't. If anything, this is the only one IMHO that can actually compete sonically with the 972 from all your potential choices. Good luck!

BR

"Sherwood is one of the few mainstream manufactures here that has a high-level employee (Jeff) participate in forum discussions."

Do you know for a fact that it's a corporate policy and not something Jeff chooses to do and SN lets him?

The difference being that if Jeff moves on, there may no longer be the forum presence we now enjoy.

Great points bigrock. I think the Pioneer looks gorgeous and really appreciate the omission of logos from its front face... the growing number of logos on receivers these days is leaving some looking more like they belong in NASCAR rather than my living room :) The main reason for ranking the Denon equally high in looks is because it gets some WAF points for its dainty and subdued styling.

I am in perfect agreement that I would be happy with any of the choices on my list. That all these receivers are so close, on balance, is probably the reason I have not decided on one yet. My preference changes almost weekly, as does the relative weights I assign to the different categories (somewhere around 30-40-20-5-5). Right now, I am just enjoying researching the different options and reading about other posters’ experiences, such as your own.

The Marantz 7002 and 8002 are also on my radar. In the short-term, I would like a receiver with a descent video scalar; in the long-term that will be less of an issue. Thus, the longer I wait, the more likely it is that the Marantz will find its way onto my list.

P.S. I wouldn't necessarily concede sound quality to the 972. People seem to be very happy with the Pioneer's sonic quality as well as its MCACC room calibration. It remains to be seen/heard whether the SN is significantly different in this respect.

"Sherwood is one of the few mainstream manufactures here that has a high-level employee (Jeff) participate in forum discussions."

Do you know for a fact that it's a corporate policy and not something Jeff chooses to do and SN lets him?

The difference being that if Jeff moves on, there may no longer be the forum presence we now enjoy.
That’s a good question to which I do not know the answer. It speaks to the long-term support channels that will be available to customers.

I was thinking more along the lines of how his presence on this forum has played a role in the development of the R-972 thus far (e.g. the decision to release it in black) rather than its future support. My approach will be to buy a receiver once I have enough information to determine that it performs to my expectations, and not buy in the hopes that future firmware updates or other fixes might resolve initial problems. In other words, I will likely not be among the earliest adopters. Given such an approach, I am less concerned about Jeff’s presence on this forum in the long-term.

Nevertheless, customer support is a valid concern to voice given the smaller number of dealer channels that SN has.

A poster stated that he got an email from SN saying that the release date has been postponed until August. I'm still waiting for Stereojeff to give us the most recent release date. In the absence of an answer, I guess it is August.

A poster stated that he got an email from SN saying that the release date has been postponed until August. I'm still waiting for Stereojeff to give us the most recent release date. In the absence of an answer, I guess it is August.

If true that's pretty disappointing. If nothing else, it would be nice to know why it's being pushed back again. It might make the wait more tolerable. For instance, if SN could release it in the spring knowing it had a flaw but instead waited until August in order to resolve it then that would be okay. If it's simply a matter of production delays then that's another matter.

If it’s the poster in this thread (post #705), I believe the August date refers to availability of a new SN preamp/processor (P-972) instead of the receiver (R-972). An updated release schedule would be nice, though. Based on some of the posts from Jeff, it sounds like there may be some last minute details to be worked out as to who will supply dsp chips for the trinnov processor.

I was told by Jeff in an email that May was what they were looking at for delivery. This was in the last week that I got this information.

Then I hope it will not be too long to ship in France as for Europe the delivery date is even later than in the US.

However it will be an opportunity to have the feedback of the early adopters.

Jeff, it's your move now to give us the launch dates in the US and in Europe (members of Club Sherwood in France are eager to know this).

If true that's pretty disappointing. If nothing else, it would be nice to know why it's being pushed back again. It might make the wait more tolerable. For instance, if SN could release it in the spring knowing it had a flaw but instead waited until August in order to resolve it then that would be okay. If it's simply a matter of production delays then that's another matter.

This is exactly why I got off the "waiting for an 972" bus. Although I do really like the SN's, I just couldn't wait any longer than March. I had a gut feel that it would get postponed once again.

Sherwood's engineering commitments to the manufacturing side is very commendable and many customers of the "other" brands benefit from this. We also know that the "bread and butter" comes from that side of their business but when dates get published for product release, SN needs to live up to those commitments (we've been waiting for the 972 for 10 months). It is important to do so. Customers lose respect for a company that doesn't live up to this. In this niche market, this is even more critical. Word of mouth is how their reputation gets around; the good and the bad points.

Does anyone know (I'm want to give Jeff a break from my stream of questions) if current SN's like the 965 have direct remote access to surround levels?


If it is anything like the '65 series, then yes - It has direct access to surround levels.

Desmo888, does the 965 (or any receiver for that matter) remember volume settings by source input?

JP

Desmo888, does the 965 (or any receiver for that matter) remember volume settings by source input?

JP

Now that’s a question I’ve been wondering about lately as well. Several receivers allow the source input levels to be adjusted separately, including the Denon (+/-12dB), Onkyo (+/-12dB), and Yamaha (+/-6dB). Based on the SN manuals, this so-called volume trim is not available on the 965 nor is it on the newer 872. I have not run across any receiver whose manual indicates that volume settings are remembers by source, although that would definitely be my preference. I’m surprised it isn’t a more commonly implemented feature.

Desmo888, does the 965 (or any receiver for that matter) remember volume settings by source input?

JP


Ohhhh that would be cool. No receiver I've owned does that. Though I assume that its too late for any changes to the 965 if it does not.

Even if it didn't remember but instead had different defaults being setable via the GUI would be nice (actually come to think of it defualts might be better than memory). For example in my current setup DVDs and PS3 I both listen at -15 but for whatever reason the nintendo wii is super loud and I have to have at -30.

Desmo888, does the 965 (or any receiver for that matter) remember volume settings by source input?

JP
The 965 does not.

Independent source volume level has come in very handy with my 3808.

Something else that would be real handy is source and surrounds format channel trim that would allow the user to adjust each independently. My Marantz SR8001 would allow this to some extent and it was handy. (it will allow the user to set up M-channel PCM input separately from bitstream).

I’ve found a disparity with some of my sources where either the LFE or other channel is different from other sources. Obviously, this is a band aid for a source that has bugs, but again, it would be very handy.

"If it is anything like the '65 series, then yes - It has direct access to surround levels."

Great, so the 972 ought to have it unless SN takes a step backwards.

Just a quick question, how is the sound quality of the SN? Anyone owning 872 care to comment?

Do you know if the 972 will sound better then the 872 and do they both sound better then the 965?

alkiro-

This question has been raised several times in this thread. Go to www.ecoustics.com and under Surround Receivers, read the reviews of the R-965. All are glowing on sound quality. If you want better sound, try the $4000 B&K AVR707 whenever it is released.

Just a quick question, how is the sound quality of the SN? Anyone owning 872 care to comment?

Alkrio, when I spoke to Sherwood before Christmas they told me that it would be available in February (and in black!). However, I wouldn't be surprised if it is pushed back another month or two.

Question to anyone: Speaking of the 872, what does Automatic Set-up for Speaker Level and Distance mean?

JP

A poster got an email from SN after Xmas saying the R-972 was delayed till August

At CES, the expected availability was late March to April; with the 972 shipping before the 872.

glennQ

I just got off the phone with Sherwood (Southern California) and was told that the R-872 is expected in "March" and the R-972 is expected "between April and May." I could tell she was looking up that information on a list or something like that.

JP

Could you please confirm us the shipping dates Jeff ?

+1

I called Aix Records last Tueday, 1-22-08 and bought 6 more of Mark Waldrep's fantastic DVD-As. He told me that the Trinnov people were in his recording studio in Santa Monica and he knows what Trinnov can do. One thing it will do in the 972 is this: You will be able to upload settings into it from Aix Records and then the sound you hear will be exactly what the microphones heard at the Aix studio during the recording session in terms of how far and what direction the mikes were from the performers. I asked Dr. Waldrep how one would do that uploading, from one's computer or what (?). He said "from a little handheld device...." and lost me at that point. But there is a tid-bit I thought all those waiting for the 972 might find interesting.

I now own 20 DVD-As costing ~$500 from Aix Records. www.aixrecords.com. I very strongly recommend them. They are the highest fidelity recorded audio ever offered to consumers. As soon as Waldrep has the Latin Cuban jazz disk ready and the Shastokovich disk ready, I'll buy those and 4 more. What's it all about with the 972 etc. if you don't have fantanstic source materal to listen to on it? The 96 kHz, 24 bit word-length, 5.1 channel Aix disks are such material. You need a DVD-A player to listen to them, and I use my Panny S-97 DVD player, now ~$230 on the net. It does not play SACDs, and so you might want to look at Oppo players that play both DVD-A and SACDs.
BTW, Dr. Waldrep knows Jeff Hipps and fully endorses Sherwood-Newcastle products.

alkiro-

This question has been raised several times in this thread. Go to www.ecoustics.com and under Surround Receivers, read the reviews of the R-965. All are glowing on sound quality. If you want better sound, try the $4000 B&K AVR707 whenever it is released.

Neat! I just picked up the 'Bad Haggis' DVD for Xmas! :)

Fresno,

Thanks for the informercial..... NOT!

Please keep your egotisms to the topic at hand.

So sorry you don't want the viewpoint of Mark Waldrep, a real player in Los Angeles in audio, re Sherwood-Newcastle. Also sorry that now those interested in the 972 know about Trinnov's ability to exactly reproduce the spacial characteristics of the Aix recording environment.

Fresno,

Thanks for the informercial..... NOT!

Please keep your egotisms to the topic at hand.

So sorry you don't want the viewpoint of Mark Waldrep, a real player in Los Angeles in audio, re Sherwood-Newcastle. Also sorry that now those interested in the 972 know about Trinnov's ability to exactly reproduce the spacial characteristics of the Aix recording environment.

fresno,

I thank you for your obversations. I am hoping, as are a bunch others on this forum, that Trinnov will translate as well in the 972, the sooner the better. Having the ability to accurately reproduce the performers and their performance space has ALWAYS been the 'holy grail' of audiophiles. What a rush!

I began purchasing AIX DVD-A several years ago, and have met Dr. Waldrep several times. The recordings are sonically, in a word OUTSTANDING. HOWEVER, some of the artists, in the classical area, leave something to be desired. The NJ Symphony Orch is simply abominable. A major issue is that the clarity and transparancy of the recording reveals the absolutely horrendous tone quality of the players and their apparent inability to blend. The European ensembles do somewhat better. I should understand, that getting top level performers, would cost too much for such a small label. The smaller groups fare far better. Maybe the SN 972 will smooth out the rough performances. But then again that wouldn't be accurate. Gotta take the good with the so-so.

Classico

I haven't always agreed with Fresno's posts in this thread but this last one relates to a major feature of the 972 so I was glad to hear. Frankly, ANY news on the 972 is welcome. The wait is getting to me.

Hmmm, still happy with my P-965. Don't plan to give it up until they make a P-972 or some such beast. I guess I could use the R-972 and just not use the amp section, but I hate waste. ;)

No way in heck I'm selling the Rotel-1077 digital amp, that's for sure!

Wouldn't mind the HDMI switching, but I don't need it that badly. Some of the other features do sound nice though, I just can't find much of anything to complain about with the P-965.

Fresno, you could have made your point in half of the text (or less).

The entire second paragraph of your post is an egomaniacal diatribe of no importance to the topic at hand. Additionally, it is a commercial advertisement for a third party that has no place in the thread. Please respect the rules of the forum and its members. You often hawk the referenced product in several other threads, ad nauseum, but it has no place here!

Finally, your first post in this thread http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11412329#post11412329. was spent lambasting another members grammer. Its about time you lived up to your own expectations.

If you stick to the facts you may find that you contribute more than you repulse.

Fresno, you could have made your point in half of the text (or less).

The entire second paragraph of your post is an egomaniacal diatribe of no importance to the topic at hand. Additionally, it is a commercial advertisement for a third party that has no place in the thread. Please respect the rules of the forum and its members. You often hawk the referenced product in several other threads, ad nauseum, but it has no place here!

Finally, your first post in this thread http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9#post11412329. was spent lambasting another members grammer. Its about time you lived up to your own expectations.

If you stick to the facts you may find that you contribute more than you repulse.


+1
Always wanted to do that first :).

Now back to the R-972 please.

Stereojeff, Denonjeff's giving you a run for your money .... more info please.

Gents:

Don't care about no "Denon Jeff". Seems to me he's a newcomer to these parts.

I was able to confirm that we will be able to offer new target uploads and do intend to have the AIX curve available for upload.

We're still shooting for May production. I wish it were earlier. I want this one in my system as badly as some of you.

Jeff

I want this one in my system as badly as some of you.


Willing to extend your employee discount??? :cool:

JP

Gents:

Don't care about no "Denon Jeff". Seems to me he's a newcomer to these parts

We're still shooting for May production.

Jeff

Stay on target....stay on target....

Okay, who recognizes it? :) It outta be pretty easy for movie lovers.

Stay on target....stay on target....

Okay, who recognizes it? :) It outta be pretty easy for movie lovers.

Instructions given to Luke by his wingman during his final bombing run that scores the bulls eye into the ventilation duct target, to blow up the death star that leads up to the ending of the original Star Wars movie.

Instructions given to Luke by his wingman during his final bombing run that scores the bulls eye into the ventilation duct target, to blow up the death star that leads up to the ending of the original Star Wars movie.

Close, but it's from the first trench run where all three ships get blown up. 'Stay on target' is followed by Antilles? saying 'they came in from behind', right before getting toasted by Vader. Maybe it's repeated on the Luke's run as well, I don't remember. :D I guess I need to go watch it again.

See what we're reduced to, Jeff? We have to kill the time until May somehow, right? I'm trying to stay strong but you don't know the power of the Denon Side. :)

Okay, enough with the bad O.T. humor.

Other than the knowing for sure he got the warning from the base station that he turned off his auto tracking/bombsight in order to use "The Force" instead to guide the bomb in during that final run, I'm close enough with my assessment, (or at least "for government work" I am;)) considering that I have probably not watched that movie in close to two years. After seeing it countless times, either in parts or in whole. It just has not been on as much anymore and I've had no desire to dig out the DVD. But for some reason if I do see it on during a channel scan, I almost always will end up watching it from wherever it was that I came in.

I am patiently waiting for the 972 like the rest of you and lately I've been hitting the Sherwood website to see if they have updated their site with new information. Since yesterday I have not been able to get to the site so I'm wondering if this is only on my system or if anyone else is having the same issue. If the latter then hopefully they are updating their site with regard to the 972.

Hello StereoJeff:

Have you thought about a "Have a local dealer call me when 972 in" or "PreOrder" page?

Reading these threads, I get the idea that many interested buyers have never heard S/N and have no local dealer.

From TWICE's Audio section today. Audio Systems: What's Next For '08 (http://www.twice.com/article/CA6526394.html)

Sherwood: The company is packaging its flagship Newcastle-series $1,799-suggested R-972 A/V receiver with a high-end 7.2-channel speaker system featuring a choice of bookshelf or in-wall versions of two-way satellites, which incorporate horn-loaded tweeter and 6.5-inch vented woofer. They'll be packaged with two sixth-order vented subwoofers, which, when combined with the receiver's room-acoustics compensation circuitry, will deliver bass within 1dB accuracy within the listening area, the company said.

The R-972 incorporates Trinnov Optimizer room correction technology previously available only in $13,000 professional equipment, Sherwood said. The 7x100-watt receiver comes with RF remote, internal decoding of all mandatory and optional surround-sound formats approved for use on Blu-ray and HD DVD discs, and HDMI 1.3 connections that support Deep Color and xvYCC.


glennQ

Southern:

Interesting suggestion. Thank you.

I have saved all of the email lit requests I received and promise to alert all of my correspondents when I have firm availability details.

Jeff

Southern:

Interesting suggestion. Thank you.

I have saved all of the email lit requests I received and promise to alert all of my correspondents when I have firm availability details.

Jeff

you. da. man.

Gents:


We're still shooting for May production. I wish it were earlier. I want this one in my system as badly as some of you.

Jeff

Stereojeff,

If you do HIT your MAY production target, how long B4 it gets into the distribution channel? Are you doing your Mfg. in mainland China or Taiwan or elsewhere?

Thanks for your information. May seems a l-o-o-ng way away. And there appears to be NO "time-warp" available.


Classico

StereoJeff,

what time frame is the prepro coming out in and what additional features will it have over the receiver.

thanks

I'm seriously thinking of dumping my Onkyo 905 and getting a new receiver. So far my short list is the Denon 4308CI, Marantz SR8002 and the SN972. So many unfixable bugs were discovered in the 905 and I'm a bit hesitant to wait until May/June for people to get the 972 and ferret out any bugs so I can make a more informed decision.

Can someone send me the 972 brochure? I'd like to get more technical details, so I can see if its really worth waiting for or just jump on the SR-8002 bandwagon.

I was thinking of the 905 myself but I am thinking about forgetting that one because of quirks and flaws. Have you considered the Denon AVR-3808ci? It has allmost every feature that the 4308ci has but has 10 less watts per channel and MSRP's for $1,599. The Audyssey can be upgraded to Audyssey Pro as well. I am sure the Sherwood can do a good job, but I would go with the Denon. The Denon can get firmware updates though its ethernet connection as well. And you can always add a power amp later if 130 X 7 is not enough? How ever anything over 70 watts per channel and you will have to actually double the power to hear a good difference in volume level. 100 watts to 140 watts gives you more reserve power IMHO especially in larger rooms with larger speakers.

http://www.usa.denon.com/ProductDetails/3510.asp

Are you a dealer? A PM would probably be more appropriate given this is a S/N thread.

How will firmware updates be done on the 972? Can the user do them? I realize receivers are very complex these days, and that firmware upgrades are highly likely. I do not want to haul my receiver into a repair shop when brands like Denon allow the user to do it.

What is the quality of the Sherwood OSD/GUI? Is it easy to use with good graphics, or more antiquated/DOS like?

What is the quality of the Sherwood OSD/GUI? Is it easy to use with good graphics, or more antiquated/DOS like?

GUI looks pretty spiffy from the snapshot in the brochure. If you go back in this thread a page or two you'll find an entry with Jeff's e-mail. He'll gladly send you the four-page PDF, as well as put your e-mail on an interest list (of sorts). I'm at work for another hour or two, but would be happy to forward the brochure if want to PM me your address.

Can't speak to the firmware issue other than to say "Upgradeable Firmware" is listed as a feature. Maybe the USB? :confused:

JP

How will firmware updates be done on the 972? Can the user do them? I realize receivers are very complex these days, and that firmware upgrades are highly likely. I do not want to haul my receiver into a repair shop when brands like Denon allow the user to do it.

What is the quality of the Sherwood OSD/GUI? Is it easy to use with good graphics, or more antiquated/DOS like?

Not to speak for Jeff but i used to own a SN P-965 pre/pro. Updates with that unit were done through it's USB port. It's VERY likely the 972's will have a similar user upgradeable architecture and updates can be done without sending it in.

edit:
Btw...the update software gui for the P965 was very basic(worked well enough though) so any polishing of the 972's gui would be gravy...as long it gets the job done that is. :)

Not to speak for Jeff but i used to own a SN P-965 pre/pro. Updates with that unit were done through it's USB port. It's VERY likely the 972's will have a similar user upgradeable architecture and updates can be done without sending it in.

That would be awesome! Marantz seems to not allow the user to do firmware updates, which is a big bummer for me. I also like the fact the 972 appears to have a higher-end audio calibration feature. My problem is waiting until May (or longer) to see user feedback about any bugs/gotchas.

What is the Sherwood history in releasing products with bugs or firmware updates to resolve them?

That would be awesome! Marantz seems to not allow the user to do firmware updates, which is a big bummer for me. I also like the fact the 972 appears to have a higher-end audio calibration feature. My problem is waiting until May (or longer) to see user feedback about any bugs/gotchas.

What is the Sherwood history in releasing products with bugs or firmware updates to resolve them?


JEFF, PLEASE GIVE US SOME HOPE THAT MAY is more than just wishful thinking.

yngdiego,

Here is the DIRECT quote found (from StereoJeff from Sherwood) a few pages earlier on this forum:

As I read through these posts I think there are three issues: why is there no buzz about this receiver; what's the process when and if something breaks; will it work correctly out of the box.

All three seem to be requests for reassurance.

I can offer this:

1. We are very good at manufacturing audio gear.
2. We care about performance as much as any reader on this forum.
3. We recognize our obligations and stand behind our products.

Those who participated on this site and elsewhere with our '65 series know well that we upgraded the units, added features and even gave hardware to our early adopters to enable the new tools. I'm not aware of any manufacturer who has offered this level of support.

I can also add that we are often late with our branded equipment. It can be hard to find as we have little retail distribution. No matter how much testing we do in advance, some bugs will make it to market.

For additional reassurance, each of you knows how to reach the guy at the top of the Sherwood pyramid...and he cares about the outcome.

Jeff

As I said in an earlier post, I am very encouraged. BUT, there is still a HUGE unknown regarding the TIMING of the R972 release. There will be many who will drop out of this waiting game by the time the R972 makes its appearance. I was willing to wait for the Mar/Apr timeframe, but the May/June timing (which appears to be ONLY a 'hoped for' time) stretches the limits of my patience.

ALSO, what information do you have re: the Marantz that it cannot be updated by firmware?

Thanks,

Classico

ALSO, what information do you have re: the Marantz that it cannot be updated by firmware?

Thanks,

Classico

I read that USERS can not perform firmware upgrades on the Marantz. I do think the factory and/or service center can perform upgrades. I hope the 972 allows user updates, like other receiver manufacturers.

Maybe I missed it, but is there a pre-order or wait list that people can get on for the 972?

Edit: I see no mention of THX certifications in the flyer. While I don't care too much about the certification per say, I DO like the THX DSP processing modes such as Cinema. Is THX certification and related DSP modes planned and just left out of the flyer pending certification?

I read that USERS can not perform firmware upgrades on the Marantz. I do think the factory and/or service center can perform upgrades. I hope the 972 allows user updates, like other receiver manufacturers.

Maybe I missed it, but is there a pre-order or wait list that people can get on for the 972?

Edit: I see no mention of THX certifications in the flyer. While I don't care too much about the certification per say, I DO like the THX DSP processing modes such as Cinema. Is THX certification and related DSP modes planned and just left out of the flyer pending certification?
THX certification has never been mentioned by any authoritative source for this AVR.

I read that USERS can not perform firmware upgrades on the Marantz. I do think the factory and/or service center can perform upgrades. I hope the 972 allows user updates, like other receiver manufacturers.

Maybe I missed it, but is there a pre-order or wait list that people can get on for the 972?

Edit: I see no mention of THX certifications in the flyer. While I don't care too much about the certification per say, I DO like the THX DSP processing modes such as Cinema. Is THX certification and related DSP modes planned and just left out of the flyer pending certification?

There will be no THX certification for the 972. This is considered a good thing here. Because of the costs involved with getting that cert, the idea is that great sacrafices would need to be made. While unfortunately we will not get the great THX surround modes, the opinion is that the overal SQ will match or exceed the "THX certified" units.

There will be no THX certification for the 972. This is considered a good thing here. Because of the costs involved with getting that cert, the idea is that great sacrafices would need to be made. While unfortunately we will not get the great THX surround modes, the opinion is that the overal SQ will match or exceed the "THX certified" units.

I for one do not believe that the THX Spec for HOME THEATER is the best option. Their requirement for 'rolling-off' certain frequencies and mandating 'di-pole' speakers for surrounds has definite issues. THX specs are actually based on 'correcting' problems found in 'theater' venues, and NOT your HOME.

If one finds that the THX surround mode works best in their situation, there will be others who find otherwise. I believe their approach has more to do with marketing than improving sound.

On the other hand, I am aware that THX has had a hand in more or less creating a 'manufacturing' standard that requires those seeking the THX logo to meet. But the good news is that even those without the THX logo build to that spec, without spending the money to buy the logo.

Just my opinion, and I am in agreement that having the THX logo on the 972 would in effect give the buyer LESS for paying MORE.

Classico

IJust my opinion, and I am in agreement that having the THX logo on the 972 would in effect give the buyer LESS for paying MORE.

Classico

I certainly appreciate the input, and can see your point. The 972 does sound like a great unit on paper, and now I have to decide whether I wait until it comes out or get something else (Denon 4308CI or Marantz 8002) instead.

I will not let the lack of THX certification be the deciding factor in my purchasing decision.

Personally, a Trinnov equipped AVR (or pre-pro) is what it is going to take for me to replace my current setup...

glennQ

I certainly appreciate the input, and can see your point. The 972 does sound like a great unit on paper, and now I have to decide whether I wait until it comes out or get something else (Denon 4308CI or Marantz 8002) instead.

I will not let the lack of THX certification be the deciding factor in my purchasing decision.

yngdiego,

You mention Denon and Marantz--what about Yamaha or Pioneer Elite? For myself, after reading posts on the various forums I find that ANY choice I make is going to be a compromise. Even the SN 972 has its share of compromises, but for my needs they appear less severe. Of course that all depends on whether the promises made for the 972 are realized in the delivered product.

And the WAIT--I would hate to wait and then find that SN really has problems that make this unit unacceptable. And we really cannot be certain of ANY date, since there are TOO many variables (i.e. part shortages, design issues, mfg. problems, cost overruns, etc., etc.)

I think I'll stop now, I'm depressing myself.

Classico

So... just to make something clear - and it would be awesome if Jeff could chime in on this - anticipated production time frame is May correct? Or was it a targeted retail debut we're talking about here?
In all honesty, if it's not a retail availability than a lot of people, myself included, will most likely not be able (or willing) to wait 'til June/July to pick one of these up, which, imo, would be a time frame to realistically expect these to show up in retail.
It's just too bad, since this, at least on "paper" seems to be the best bang for the money.
Now if we're taliking about May (early) availability, than maybe, and just maybe, I could hold out and fall back on some cheapo tide-over.
Jeff... care to comment... please, pretty please.

Thank you.

yngdiego,

You mention Denon and Marantz--what about Yamaha or Pioneer Elite? For myself, after reading posts on the various forums I find that ANY choice I make is going to be a compromise. Even the SN 972 has its share of compromises, but for my needs they appear less severe. Of course that all depends on whether the promises made for the 972 are realized in the delivered product.

And the WAIT--I would hate to wait and then find that SN really has problems that make this unit unacceptable. And we really cannot be certain of ANY date, since there are TOO many variables (i.e. part shortages, design issues, mfg. problems, cost overruns, etc., etc.)

I think I'll stop now, I'm depressing myself.

Classico

The continual delays are really putting me off. I'm about ready to pull the trigger on a Denon 3808CI. If/when the 972 comes to market, I'll watch the forums and see what kinds of issues it has and how performance stacks up against comparable models. Should the 972 be a killer receiver and the new audio EQ totally blow people away, then I may consider another swap in late 2008.

I am in the same boat, not feeling like waiting till june/july at best if production starts in May.
Come on Jeff, pls give us some feedbacks.
We still dont know where it will be manufactured, and what about the versions for europe ?
Yeah I know so many questions .. but so many of those new amps got issues those days ... Let's hope ... and see

Even though I want a new receiver (none of my current ones have HDMI - I am running hdmi direct from source to the TV or in the case of my projector using HDMI on the PS3 for bluray and just using component instead on the other sources) I would rather wait and get a receiver with no problems as I want the R972 to last me all the way through the "blu-ray age" with no annoyances :)

Just offering another opinion.

I have always been a big Sherwood Newcastle fan and still have my first SN receiver from almost 7 years ago. I currently use a Onkyo TX-SR805 and have ordered a Newcastle A-965 amplifier. This may be an apples to oranges comparison but, how does the TX-SR805 compare to the P-965 processor in terms of overall sound quality and quality of DAC's? It seems that processors get outdated quickly and manufacturers don't drop prices fast enough. Is the P-965 not worth considering since the R-972 has been announced? Anyone know if the P-965 can be updated with the Dolby HD or DTS HD. Which one of the three would you guys choose? The TX-SR805 is currently selling at a big discount and the 805 + A-965 combo costs well under $2k.

Thanks!

The begging for an availability projection, and/or threats to buy a different AVR are really boring and slightly pathetic IMO. Can't we raise the level of discussion a little? I'm sure information will be shared as it becomes available.

glennQ

I lost the desire to continue waiting for something with a continuously moving availability date.

I purchased a Denon 3808CI.

Too bad, for I wanted a SN.

I purchased a Denon 3808CI.

Congratulations! Is that what you're looking for? I mean, to post your comment directly after GlennQ's make you seem very attention-seeking.

I'm using an older Marantz, you have a Denon, others have Yamahas and Onkyos and Pioneers...We all have the same story. The fact that you needed something right now took you out of the market for the 972. End of story.

JP

Do we know if the new 872 and 972 will apply bass managament to the 7.1 analog input(for sacd, dvd-a, etc.) like the old 965 series does?

This is a great feature overlooked by many other brands.

I lost the desire to continue waiting for something with a continuously moving availability date.

Congratulations! Is that what you're looking for? I mean, to post your comment directly after GlennQ's make you seem very attention-seeking.An apropos comment nonetheless IMO given that, IIRC, these AVRs were announced over a year ago at CES 2007 :eek: and have yet to see the light of day.

...these AVRs were announced over a year ago at CES 2007...

Oh, I certainly understand that the anticipation/expectation factor is a 10. :D I've had my eyes on it for many months, too.

A year ago it was reported that SN was going to use Audyssey. So, at least there should be a nice payoff with the Trinnov component after such a long wait.

In any case, it's taken me a year to convince my wife that we might need to upgrade! :cool:

Jeff, is there a product brochure for the R-872?

JP

The begging for an availability projection, and/or threats to buy a different AVR are really boring and slightly pathetic IMO. Can't we raise the level of discussion a little? I'm sure information will be shared as it becomes available.

glennQ

I have to agree. Expressing disappointment in the release date is one thing but imploring Jeff to give us information he doesn't have isn't helping anyone. Does anyone here think that Jeff has this information and isn't sharing it? He's been pretty up front with his posts. I suspect the date isn't locked down so he doesn't want to post any firm date until it is.

My advice is that if you get tired of waiting for this receiver move to another brand. It's a lost sale for SN but you shouldn't worry about that. It's SN's fault for announcing a receiver over a year ago and still not having it available. No offense, Jeff. I'm glad that SN is delaying things to improve/debug the receiver but it's a long, long way from CES 2007.

Personally, my time frame for purchase is this summer and with luck the SN will be available by then. I've been spending my time researching other options should the SN not be available when it's my time to buy.

Congratulations! Is that what you're looking for? I mean, to post your comment directly after GlennQ's make you seem very attention-seeking.

I'm using an older Marantz, you have a Denon, others have Yamahas and Onkyos and Pioneers...We all have the same story. The fact that you needed something right now took you out of the market for the 972. End of story.

JP

The post happened to be right after his because the time I posted was after his post but before your post. That is how things work. I cannot have my post appear before his if I post at a later time than he does, unless I am a mod of some sort.

That is how this forum works. It starts with the oldest post and continues forward in time to the most recent one.

It was simply a statement of regret about the moving availability date. In October, you very well might still be waiting for the SN to appear. Heck, maybe you still have Duke Nukem Forever (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_Nukem_Forever) on preorder and are still eagerly awaiting the game, refusing to buy any other until it arrives.

The end of the story is that I no longer am willing to continue to wait for something which may, or may not, arrive this calendar year.

"imploring Jeff to give us information he doesn't have isn't helping anyone."

I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for clarification on whether the May ETA means mfg or retail availability.

I can understand people's frustration. My window for buying won't really be until this summer so the time frame should work out well. I'm still working over the wife :rolleyes:. Maybe we'll get lucky and Jeff will be able to offer an incentive for early adopters. That will certainly help with the convincing :cool:.

The post happened to be right after his because the time I posted was after his post but before your post. That is how things work. I cannot have my post appear before his if I post at a later time than he does, unless I am a mod of some sort.

That is how this forum works. It starts with the oldest post and continues forward in time to the most recent one.

Thanks for the clarification and...you misssed my point. But, that's okay... I get where you're coming from.

JP

Who needs finding out it's got bugs and need upgrades. I hope S-N gets it as bugless and compatible with other gear as reasonably possible before they put it out. Either S-N does the testing or we, the buyers, will.

[QUOTE=chrhon;13083696

I would rather wait and get a receiver with no problems as I want the R972 to last me all the way through the "blu-ray age" with no annoyances :)

Just offering another opinion.[/QUOTE]

"imploring Jeff to give us information he doesn't have isn't helping anyone."

I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for clarification on whether the May ETA means mfg or retail availability.

True, but if he doesn't give us that information we have no right to get up in arms over it. He's not obligated to give us anything. We're damned lucky to have any SN rep here giving us insider info. I guess it's the tone of some posts that gets to me.

Jeff, is there a product brochure for the R-872?
I was wondering that too, and would like one if so.

I am not really annoyed to wait longer since it will be better for my financial situation. I hope it will be a good opportunity for Sherwood Newcastle to deliver us an even better receiver with a second HDMI output or better network connectivity.

If they delay the release date to give us a receiver which will be much better than the competition, then it's worth the wait.

...a second HDMI output or better network connectivity.

Tempus06, are you just hoping for a second HDMI output or did I miss something? The recent brochure (which includes the CES 2008 Innovations logo) shows four (4) in and one (1) out. Thanks.

JP

If you read the whole sentence it begins with : "I hope it will". The brochure can still be fixed.

If you read the whole sentence it begins with : "I hope it will". The brochure can still be fixed.

Just making small talk. Didn't work.

JP

Sorry I didn't get the point. I think that rather than complaining for the delay, the wait could be well used to ask more features if it's not too late now.

Sorry I didn't get the point. I think that rather than complaining for the delay, the wait could be well used to ask more features if it's not too late now.

Do we know what the delay is about? Generally, adding more to a delayed project just delays it further.

Sorry I didn't get the point. I think that rather than complaining for the delay, the wait could be well used to ask more features if it's not too late now.

like 6 HDMI inputs? Oh, wait....

Do we know what the delay is about? Generally, adding more to a delayed project just delays it further.

I have to imagine that swapping Audyessy (CES 2007) for Trinnov (CES 2008) was/is quite an undertaking (if, in fact, that's what they've done).

JP

I don't believe the Trinnov processor has anything to do with the delay. I think S/N said they are waiting for chips related to HDMI?

glennQ

I don't believe the Trinnov processor has anything to do with the delay. I think S/N said they are waiting for chips related to HDMI?

glennQ

I think you will find the reverse is true if you read between the lines on what Stereojeff has said. The problem is that the Trinnov needed a lot more power than Audessy and it also had to be reworked from a software standpoint for the chip.

I think you will find the reverse is true if you read between the lines on what Stereojeff has said. The problem is that the Trinnov needed a lot more power than Audessy and it also had to be reworked from a software standpoint for the chip.

I would agree, putting Trinnov on a chipset could take some time. But, they really need to hit the May time frame that they last commited...

I don't believe the Trinnov processor has anything to do with the delay. I think S/N said they are waiting for chips related to HDMI?

glennQ

Nearly every modern A/V piece of equipment has HDMI. I can't imagine that would be a hold up. But maybe they want a super specific chip and can't find replacements?

Nearly every modern A/V piece of equipment has HDMI. I can't imagine that would be a hold up. But maybe they want a super specific chip and can't find replacements?

What I heard was S/N was waiting on a new HDMI 1.3 chip for the 872 and 972. Current 1.3 AVRs use two less-capable chips, and are not as acurate and/or lack optional 1.3 features.

glennQ

Although I'd hate to see them rush to make a deadline and ship an inferior product. Personally I would prefer they push it back to September if that's what it takes to work all the kinks out.

Are regular firmware updates going to be made available for the 972? Will it be user-updatable through ethernet?

I don't think anyone wants an inferior product, but they also need to release a product that they announced in early 2007... I'm really trying to hold off on my upgrade until this thing hits the market. The R-972 is at the top of my list. Going much past May will make that very difficult....

It they wait longer perhaps it will be the timeframe for HDMI 1.4 ?

Is there really an HDMI 1.4? I haven't heard of it. I have heard of HDMI 1.3b, but I don't know of any new developments in HDMI that are actually significant or worth waiting for. Are there?

I would agree, putting Trinnov on a chipset could take some time. But, they really need to hit the May time frame that they last commited...

I don't believe the May date will hold. Not because I have inside info but more because this is probably the 5th release date I've heard for this product in the last year. They don't even have the 872 out. This one was due at least 6 months ago and it's not even because of the Trinnov because as you know, only the 972 will have it (for now).

I don't believe the May date will hold. Not because I have inside info but more because this is probably the 5th release date I've heard for this product in the last year. They don't even have the 872 out. This one was due at least 6 months ago and it's not even because of the Trinnov because as you know, only the 972 will have it (for now).

I think you might be right, that's why I'm dusting off my list of canidates...

I couldn't find it searching the magazine's site.

Also curious if this or any other current receiver uses PWM amplification (e.g. ICE Power, Hypex etc.)

I couldn't find it searching the magazine's site.

Also curious if this or any other current receiver uses PWM amplification (e.g. ICE Power, Hypex etc.)
Not this one, but the new monster Pioneer SC-09TX has ICEPower amps, plus a lot of other stuff, for about $7K. Due in April, I think.

Thanks, I did see the Pioneer but that's well above what I'd pay for a receiver. Thanks just the same.

I think you might be right, that's why I'm dusting off my list of canidates...

FWIW. I have looked into the available receivers and the only two I came up with were NAD and Newcastle that would meet my sound quality requirements and my budget.

The NAD is available now but does not have internal decoding for the hi-rez HD formats which means you need a player that has an internal decoder like the upcoming panasonic BD50 apart from that it has the best Audessy implementation available not as good as Trinnov but better than most out there.

If Newcastle don't put out a Trinnov Pre Pro soon or at least announce a definite release date then I will be purchasing the T175. I already have AMPS.

Given how late the Newcastle is now one would hope that it would also support DLNA so it can play network files, which is something I dislike about the NAD, the NAD is however available.

Broke

FWIW. I have looked into the available receivers and the only two I came up with were NAD and Newcastle that would meet my sound quality requirements and my budget.

The NAD is available now but does not have internal decoding for the hi-rez HD formats which means you need a player that has an internal decoder like the upcoming panasonic BD50 apart from that it has the best Audessy implementation available not as good as Trinnov but better than most out there.

If Newcastle don't put out a Trinnov Pre Pro soon or at least announce a definite release date then I will be purchasing the T175. I already have AMPS.

Given how late the Newcastle is now one would hope that it would also support DLNA so it can play network files, which is something I dislike about the NAD, the NAD is however available.

Broke

I’ve researched NAD, they have some nice equipment from what I’ve read. The problem for me is the lack of hi-rez audio formats or I think it’s a problem. I currently have the Panasonic BD30 and I really don’t want to upgrade it at this time. I’ve not been able to audition the NAD yet, no dealers locally for me.

The R-972 looks great on paper which is why I’ve waited, but I’m really getting the upgrade bug. My current AVR is the Marantz SR8000, which was great in its day, but it’s really time to upgrade it. Heck, the wife is even bugging me to upgrade…

I’ve researched NAD, they have some nice equipment from what I’ve read. The problem for me is the lack of hi-rez audio formats or I think it’s a problem. I currently have the Panasonic BD30 and I really don’t want to upgrade it at this time. I’ve not been able to audition the NAD yet, no dealers locally for me.

The R-972 looks great on paper which is why I’ve waited, but I’m really getting the upgrade bug. My current AVR is the Marantz SR8000, which was great in its day, but it’s really time to upgrade it. Heck, the wife is even bugging me to upgrade…

I'm in the same boat. I looked at NAD, but the lack of high bit-rate audio decoding turned me off. From what I gather, their on-board DSPs are not powerful enough to do the decoding and other DSP functions. So it may require new boards. So now I"m trading my Onkyo 905 for the Denon 3808CI and should the 972 be killer, maybe I"ll upgrade again. I also have a BD30 and don't want to upgrade that device as well.

Like you said, I'd hope the 972 supports DLNA media, since that is pretty common these days.

Hi all ... like everyone else here, I've been waiting for S-N to make the 972 available for over a year now. Frankly, it's slight overkill for me ... the 872 does just about everything I need, but I decided to get the 972 mainly due to the Realta chip, and to a lesser degree, the Trinnov. However, I stumbled across an interesting question that's above my head, technically ... if what I really want from a receiver is for it to do NO processing, what is the advantage of the Realta chip?

I own a Director's Series Hitachi plasma -- I think the model # is 55HDX62 -- and it produces an outstanding 720p picture, maybe the best I've ever seen. (Standard-def even looks good on this thing; its remarkable.) My current receiver is the first Outlaw Audio 1050, which pre-dates component input, so I run componenent & HDMI cables directly to the Hitachi. About a year ago, I bought an inexpensive non-Elite Pioneer receiver, but it did such a poor job of switching the video that I had to bring it back. (even my wife, who couldn't possibly be less interested in these things, could see the degradation) As a result, what I primarily want from my new receiver is that it Does No Evil. I just want the 872/972 to switch the audio & video w/o actually "processing" the video -- is this possible? If so --does it really matter which chip I use?

Thanks to anyone who can offer good advice.

Hi all ... like everyone else here, I've been waiting for S-N to make the 972 available for over a year now. Frankly, it's slight overkill for me ... the 872 does just about everything I need, but I decided to get the 972 mainly due to the Realta chip, and to a lesser degree, the Trinnov. However, I stumbled across an interesting question that's above my head, technically ... if what I really want from a receiver is for it to do NO processing, what is the advantage of the Realta chip?

I own a Director's Series Hitachi plasma -- I think the model # is 55HDX62 -- and it produces an outstanding 720p picture, maybe the best I've ever seen. (Standard-def even looks good on this thing; its remarkable.) My current receiver is the first Outlaw Audio 1050, which pre-dates component input, so I run componenent & HDMI cables directly to the Hitachi. About a year ago, I bought an inexpensive non-Elite Pioneer receiver, but it did such a poor job of switching the video that I had to bring it back. (even my wife, who couldn't possibly be less interested in these things, could see the degradation) As a result, what I primarily want from my new receiver is that it Does No Evil. I just want the 872/972 to switch the audio & video w/o actually "processing" the video -- is this possible? If so --does it really matter which chip I use?

Thanks to anyone who can offer good advice.

For "through" video processing, it shouldn't matter what chip they use as long as the chip is properly implemented. For example, Onkyo hosed up the Reon implementation and had to issue a firmware update to fix black levels. HDMI is digital, so unless they bugger the configuration it should not make any PQ difference.

As part of receiver QA testing I would have thought manufacturers would measure the input and output digital signals to verify they are not being altered in "bad" ways or that color coordinates are altered. Onkyo didn't do this, but hopefully SN will. So it really boils down to manufacturer testing.

For "through" video processing, it shouldn't matter what chip they use as long as the chip is properly implemented. For example, Onkyo hosed up the Reon implementation and had to issue a firmware update to fix black levels. HDMI is digital, so unless they bugger the configuration it should not make any PQ difference.

Not quite. A bad implementation can kill a great chip, but a great implementation can't always save a bad chip. I would call Faroudja downright bad these days, personally, but I like anime which tends to bring out the worst in chips.

For "through" video processing, it shouldn't matter what chip they use as long as the chip is properly implemented. For example, Onkyo hosed up the Reon implementation and had to issue a firmware update to fix black levels. HDMI is digital, so unless they bugger the configuration it should not make any PQ difference.

As part of receiver QA testing I would have thought manufacturers would measure the input and output digital signals to verify they are not being altered in "bad" ways or that color coordinates are altered. Onkyo didn't do this, but hopefully SN will. So it really boils down to manufacturer testing.
But remember, even when the Onkyo had that black level problem, when the chip was bypassed (by setting the HDMI to "Through" and immediate display to off), the signal was fine. In fact, that's how we have discovered these picture issues - by comparing the processed picture with the "through" one.

So I agree that the video chip shouldn't matter if you are running video "through", doing no component conversion to HDMI, etc. The only problem you possibly may have is a lip sync issue, if audio processing causes a delay larger than your video delay.

Has anyone heard anything from Jeff lately? I sent him an email last week and haven't heard anything.

I mailed a request for a brochure but haven't heard so far (only a few days) so he may be out.

I emailed him twice last week; the first one bounced because his mailbox was full, and he answered the second.

He verified that Next Level AV is an authorized dealer, and didn't respond to my question about ETA.

Bummer, no mention of ETA.

Hi all ... like everyone else here, I've been waiting for S-N to make the 972 available for over a year now. Frankly, it's slight overkill for me ... the 872 does just about everything I need, but I decided to get the 972 mainly due to the Realta chip, and to a lesser degree, the Trinnov. However, I stumbled across an interesting question that's above my head, technically ... if what I really want from a receiver is for it to do NO processing, what is the advantage of the Realta chip?

I own a Director's Series Hitachi plasma -- I think the model # is 55HDX62 -- and it produces an outstanding 720p picture, maybe the best I've ever seen. (Standard-def even looks good on this thing; its remarkable.) My current receiver is the first Outlaw Audio 1050, which pre-dates component input, so I run componenent & HDMI cables directly to the Hitachi. About a year ago, I bought an inexpensive non-Elite Pioneer receiver, but it did such a poor job of switching the video that I had to bring it back. (even my wife, who couldn't possibly be less interested in these things, could see the degradation) As a result, what I primarily want from my new receiver is that it Does No Evil. I just want the 872/972 to switch the audio & video w/o actually "processing" the video -- is this possible? If so --does it really matter which chip I use?

Thanks to anyone who can offer good advice.


Did I miss something, thought R-972 had the Reon implentation. I would be willing to wait til May for the Realta :eek:.

Did I miss something, thought R-972 had the Reon implentation. I would be willing to wait til May for the Realta :eek:.
No, not Realta - it's still Reon.

Hi all ... like everyone else here, I've been waiting for S-N to make the 972 available for over a year now. Frankly, it's slight overkill for me ... the 872 does just about everything I need, but I decided to get the 972 mainly due to the Realta chip, and to a lesser degree, the Trinnov. However, I stumbled across an interesting question that's above my head, technically ... if what I really want from a receiver is for it to do NO processing, what is the advantage of the Realta chip?

I own a Director's Series Hitachi plasma -- I think the model # is 55HDX62 -- and it produces an outstanding 720p picture, maybe the best I've ever seen. (Standard-def even looks good on this thing; its remarkable.) My current receiver is the first Outlaw Audio 1050, which pre-dates component input, so I run componenent & HDMI cables directly to the Hitachi. About a year ago, I bought an inexpensive non-Elite Pioneer receiver, but it did such a poor job of switching the video that I had to bring it back. (even my wife, who couldn't possibly be less interested in these things, could see the degradation) As a result, what I primarily want from my new receiver is that it Does No Evil. I just want the 872/972 to switch the audio & video w/o actually "processing" the video -- is this possible? If so --does it really matter which chip I use?

Thanks to anyone who can offer good advice.

I have a B&K AVR307 that I am going to sell when the 972 comes out because I want the HDMI switching, the upscaler/video processor, and the room EQ (Trinnov). It has 2 component inputs and 1 component output that, as I understand from talking with B&K, are totally passive. I would imagine that most receivers without upscaling capabilities are passive through-puts.

For all those who are interested, I found a copy of the brochure for the R-972 on esnips

http://www.esnips.com/doc/9193ca11-96ad-4763-9d7f-fef0472a89e9/Sherwood-R972-brochure

Has anyone heard anymore on the pre/pro? Still August, still based on the R972?

Many in it's price range do (3808, 905), hopefully it will too.

Many in it's price range do (3808, 905), hopefully it will too.

I hope so too. However, I see no mention of ANY networking features in the brochure. I do see what appears to be a Ethernet type of jack on the rear panel picture. So hopefully it was just omitted from the feature list, but will be fully enabled for various features at release.

Streaming media, backup/restore settings, change/view settings are all ethernet features I'd like to see.

I hope so too. However, I see no mention of ANY networking features in the brochure. I do see what appears to be a Ethernet type of jack on the rear panel picture. So hopefully it was just omitted from the feature list, but will be fully enabled for various features at release.

Streaming media, backup/restore settings, change/view settings are all ethernet features I'd like to see.
It does appear that there is an ethernet port on the back of it. Earlier pictures of the prototype had what appreared to be a wireless antenna on the back. Looks like that was removed from the production version.

Has anyone heard any more info on a pre-pro based on the R-972?

Hello all. I am an ex proud owner of a P965. I had to sell because of divorce/ financial reasons.I would still have it if it weren't for that.This is for all the people that haven't heard or heard of Sherwood Newcastle. It was an awesome sounding piece. When I bought the P965 I was fully satisfied with its sound. It was the first time I have been totally satisfied with my equipment. And that was the missing piece.It was not warm sounding not harsh sounding. It just had musical rightness to it.And I am in the market to replace all that I sold. I had thought I was going for the Onkyo prepro but darned if Sherwood doesn't do it again. You have stoll all my interest. I have been following this thread. I will definately be getting this prepro. I would like to know what the other secrets that will be on it? A approximate price and time frame for it to be released. And Jeff definately do come out with them piano black side panels. I saw the picture of the 972 at CES and man that thing in black, with the side panels is amazing looking. And the waf factor is good too. My girlfriend loves it. You would sell tons of them. So remember black with shiny side panels for me.

Thank You Jeff and Sherwood you have got me again and I can't wait.

Hello
The picture on the euro site is different than the one on the pre-prochure
no ethernet, 1 rs232 ....

http://www.sherwood.de/images/products/large/r972_back.jpg

It also doesn't show the HQV Reon logo.

rhale64L7...I am hoping to get my hands on one of these too if they can ever decide to release this puppy! :) That being said, as a friendly reminder who has also gone through a separation, make sure this new Sherwood Newcastle doesn't become another casualty of a divorce/speration....I.E. PRENUPT!! :)

I realize these AVRs have yet to be released, and well have no solid released date, but, is Sherwood Newcastle an easy brand to find? I am looking forward to the 872 not only because of what it offers in technically, but because of its small size. However, when I look for dealers in my area the closest is in Indianapolis, I am located in Cincinnati, OH.

I dont usually buy a product if I cant listen to it so finding it, upon release, somewhere a little closer than 100 miles away would be ideal.

Watsonte, I never bought something without hearing it first until the Newcastle P965. And I was not sorry at all. And there customer service is awesome. And if this thing has the same circuit design as the last ones it will be a no brainer. ;)

Watsonte, I never bought something without hearing it first until the Newcastle P965. And I was not sorry at all. And there customer service is awesome. And if this thing has the same circuit design as the last ones it will be a no brainer. ;)

Fair enough, I guess I will continue to wait it out.

Like all of you, we are patiently waiting for the new receivers. I will try to have my office get some information from Jeff/S-N but it will likely be the same information as previously outlined.

I know it will be a great product and provide excellent value. (I just hope we can continue to hold some customers off.)

Any information that you can get would be great. I am trying to hold off until it is released, just need to see a little light at the end of the tunnel...

Uh guys, Sherwood is too busy making platforms for other brands. They make more money this way as supposed to selling thier own branded products. You're likely to get a 'R-972' branded as another brand before SN actually releases it own. That's the hold up.

"You're likely to get a 'R-972' branded as another brand"

Which brands?

Like all of you, we are patiently waiting for the new receivers.

Quite a few of us got tired of waiting. I see it as kind of a good thing that we did, because maybe it will make them work harder to get their next product out on time. Of course, them releasing on time would have been even better.

Quite a few of us got tired of waiting. I see it as kind of a good thing that we did, because maybe it will make them work harder to get their next product out on time. Of course, them releasing on time would have been even better.

I didn't wait. But I'll be willing to sell my 905 for the pre-pro come august if it's a hit. (was looking into getting an external amp around then, anyway). I'm hoping I'd be able to sell the 905 then for 1250-1400.

I just got a refurb Onkyo 705 for <$500 to tide me over.

Also always been curious about Audyssey; haven't set it up yet.

I just got a refurb Onkyo 705 for <$500 to tide me over.

Same here (but not a refurb).

Quite a few of us got tired of waiting. I see it as kind of a good thing that we did, because maybe it will make them work harder to get their next product out on time. Of course, them releasing on time would have been even better.

The other good thing about waiting is the price of comparable AVRs from other manufactures will be cheaper, so I will have a larger group of AVRs to choose from.

I got an email response from Jeff yesterday - They are still hoping for May.

"...hoping..."?? :(

I got an email response from Jeff yesterday - They are still hoping for May.

Well, I guess I will hold out until June, after that I might have to move on.

Jeff/Sherwood,

I had an Onkyo 905 that has suffered various Reon problems, mostly due to the lack of quality control before the product was released. I'm looking forward to the 972 or pre/pro and want to make sure it won't suffer the same issues.

1. Reon altered the black-levels, causing a somewhat washed out picture. Onkyo fixed it with a firmware update, although some still claim there is still a subtle change.

2. A more recent issue is the Reon not converting SD material upscaled to HD to the 601 HD color space. This results in incorrect colors for upconverted material. See http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13280721#post13280721 Post number 5321 for some info.

3. When the Reon is engaged, it makes for much worse audio/video lag issues. Video can actually be AHEAD of audio, which would require negative audio delay setting. Could be a bad audio DSP design, but turning the Reon off helps with the A/V offset.

I sincerely hope that the Sherwood implementation of the Reon and accompanying audio will be much improved over the Onkyo and will avoid issues that have many Onkyo users quite PO'd.

yngdiego:

We have been monitoring the Reon/Onkyo web chat. My guess is that Silicon Optix wrote most of the firmware in the Onkyo. In all likelihood, they're doing ours as well. In this case being late to market will be an advantage as Silicon Optix will not need to repeat their old errors. They make make new ones, but that's life.

I feel certain that we will not have the audio lag. Onkyo used some extraordinary sleight of hand to get to market first. IMO, their 3 chip audio solution is less than optimum.

Jeff

yngdiego:

We have been monitoring the Reon/Onkyo web chat. My guess is that Silicon Optix wrote most of the firmware in the Onkyo. In all likelihood, they're doing ours as well. In this case being late to market will be an advantage as Silicon Optix will not need to repeat their old errors. They make make new ones, but that's life.

I feel certain that we will not have the audio lag. Onkyo used some extraordinary sleight of hand to get to market first. IMO, their 3 chip audio solution is less than optimum.

Jeff


Excellent! I just heard on the Onkyo forum that SO has new firmware for Onkyo that should fix the color space problem. I'm sure Sherwood will be privy to that update as well. I would agree the Onkyo audio design is less than stellar, and was the primary reason why I returned the unit.

One more question for you. Audyssey has a feature in the Denon 3808/4308 they call DynamicEQ. Basically it is a feature which adjusts the EQ based on the SPL level because at volumes less than reference the human ear is more sensitive to high frequences and thus mid and bass frequencies do not seem as loud. As the SPL decreases, to a human the sound can lose some of the full body. You probably already know this, but wanted to elaborate for other forum members.

Since the 972 is getting the Trinnov EQ processor, does it have a similar system to compensate for less than reference levels and take into consideration the human ear perception at lower volume levels?

While I haven't heard DynamicEQ in action, others have mentioned with it engaged material at "normal" volumes sounds much more full bodied with good bass.

"at volumes less than reference the human ear is more sensitive to high frequences and thus mid and bass frequencies do not seem as loud."

Actually I believe the ear is more sensitive to midrange freq and less sensitive to highs, and even more so to lows.

Do a google search for "Fletcher-Munson Curves" or "equal-loudness contour" and we can stay on topic. ;)

glennQ

Yngdiego:

We are not involved with Audyssey. There are competing technologies that have similar goals and we expect to demo a unit with both Trinnov and Dolby Volume at the CEDIA show in Spetember.

For any AVS members in the Orlando area, I will be demonstrating the R-972 with the Trinnov Optimizer completely on-board during the upcoming EHX Show. We will no be part of the show but will be in the Peabody Hotel across the street. You are invited to attend.

Jeff

Yngdiego:

We are not involved with Audyssey. There are competing technologies that have similar goals and e expect to demo a unit with both Trinnov and Dolby Volume at the CEDIA show in Spetember.

For any AVS members in the Orlando area, I will be demonstrating the R-972 with the Trinnov Optimizer completely on-board during the upcoming EHX Show. We will no be part of the show but will be in the Peabody Hotel across the street. You are invited to attend.

Jeff

Hi Jeff,

I live in the Orlando area and would love to see the demo. Do you have any details yet, when, where and etc.?

Thanks

Yngdiego:

We are not involved with Audyssey. There are competing technologies that have similar goals and e expect to demo a unit with both Trinnov and Dolby Volume at the CEDIA show in Spetember.

For any AVS members in the Orlando area, I will be demonstrating the R-972 with the Trinnov Optimizer completely on-board during the upcoming EHX Show. We will no be part of the show but will be in the Peabody Hotel across the street. You are invited to attend.

Jeff

Glenn, maybe I misunderstood or didn't properly describe it. From the Audyssey site it says: "At a lower playback volume, voices change, bass disappears, and the surround soundstage becomes less enveloping. Now, Dynamic EQ lets you enjoy the original rich sound at any volume."

Looking at their example graphs, as the output volume is decreased they apply more bass boost to the overall EQ to compensate for the perceived drop in bass relative to other frequencies.

I could well be wrong, but I didn't think Dolby Volume had the same goals as Audyssey DynamicEQ. Dolby Volume seems to try and address the variability in loudness between sources or commercials and the main program. Maybe it also adjusts EQ depending on the AVR volume level, but I didn't think so.

So my basic question is, will the 972 have any type of compensation EQ technology based on the sound pressure level that boosts or cuts ranges of the audio signal depending on how high or low the user has the volume set?

I realize it doesn't have Audyssey DynamicEQ, but I was hoping it would have a similar feature that had the same goal since I never play at reference levels. And from what users have reported about DynamicEQ, they really like the feature and feel the sound is fuller at lower levels.

Glenn, maybe I misunderstood or didn't properly describe it. From the Audyssey site it says: "At a lower playback volume, voices change, bass disappears, and the surround soundstage becomes less enveloping. Now, Dynamic EQ lets you enjoy the original rich sound at any volume."

Looking at their example graphs, as the output volume is decreased they apply more bass boost to the overall EQ to compensate for the perceived drop in bass relative to other frequencies.

I could well be wrong, but I didn't think Dolby Volume had the same goals as Audyssey DynamicEQ. Dolby Volume seems to try and address the variability in loudness between sources or commercials and the main program. Maybe it also adjusts EQ depending on the AVR volume level, but I didn't think so.

So my basic question is, will the 972 have any type of compensation EQ technology based on the sound pressure level that boosts or cuts ranges of the audio signal depending on how high or low the user has the volume set?

I realize it doesn't have Audyssey DynamicEQ, but I was hoping it would have a similar feature that had the same goal since I never play at reference levels. And from what users have reported about DynamicEQ, they really like the feature and feel the sound is fuller at lower levels.

By reading into his answer, I get the impression they will not have such a feature that you're describing, but that the Dolby feature may be added via firmware at a later date. Why? Because he wouldn't have brought it up if they weren't thinking about it, but he would have stated it will be in the receiver if it would at it's release.

Don't forget that Audssey has a major advantage in that they brought their technology to receivers a couple years ago and have applied it to several different receivers so they have worked out many of their kinks and are on to newer things. Trinnov in it's own right is very advanced (more so than Audyssey) so applying it to a receiver without losing it's guts is a feat unto itself. I wouldn't be surprised if Trinnov adds a feature like the one you're describing (especially if it is popular), but it's probably not possible to add it now without adding considerable delays. The Dolby feature is probably easier to add and thus much more likely to come via firmware update.

Krister:

I'm not sure Audyssey has any advantages. Certainly Trinnov, coming directly from the studios, seems to have the leg that's up.

Jeff

The demo in Orlando will be across the street from the convention center at the Peabody Hotel March 13-15.

Jeff

Jeff,

If possible, could you elaborate on what Trinnov parameters the user can tweak? From the brochure, it looks like one can export the settings to a USB stick and upload them to a particular web site for further analysis and tweaking.

What I'm hoping for is more user control over the parameters than Audyssey Pro, which is zero.

Is the pre/pro still slated for August-ish 2008 timeframe?

yngdiego:

Currently the user can select crossover frequency, one of the built-in target curves, 2D or 3D remapping and one of the two remapping targets: SMPTE Cinema or ITU Surround Music. The software has been configured to allow the uploading of new target curves. It may also be possible to allow the user to configure his own target curve, but that will be a future development.

I would think October would be a better estimate of the pre-pros availability.

Jeff

yngdiego:

Currently the user can select crossover frequency, one of the built-in target curves, 2D or 3D remapping and one of the two remapping targets: SMPTE Cinema or ITU Surround Music. The software has been configured to allow the uploading of new target curves. It may also be possible to allow the user to configure his own target curve, but that will be a future development.

I would think October would be a better estimate of the pre-pros availability.

Jeff

Excellent, thanks for the information! I'm looking at a ICEpower amp, so I will probably hold out for your pre/pro which gives me time to absorb user feedback from the 972 and see if it gets rave reviews or not. I hope it does!

Edit: I hope the two curves will have discrete IR codes so we can flip between them with universal remotes.

Do you have a brochure for the pre/pro? Or will it be "exactly" like the 972 minus the amp section and add XLR output?

No brochure yet on the pre-pro and no word on features. CEDIA's Expo is in September.

Jeff

Krister:

I'm not sure Audyssey has any advantages. Certainly Trinnov, coming directly from the studios, seems to have the leg that's up.

Jeff

Jeff...

As far as I'm concerned, the only advantage Audyssey has over Trinnov is that they've had ample time to try to correct their screw ups with implementing their technology in receivers. That's a bit of a back handed complement for Audyssey. Since this will be Trinnov's first time in a receiver, they don't have that luxery. If Trinnov gets it right the first time, then more power to 'em.

Jeff,

"we expect to demo a unit with both Trinnov and Dolby Volume at the CEDIA show in Spetember."

This would be the pre/pro, right?

"2D or 3D remapping"

What's that?

Is it that 2D moving the speakers' virtual image only laterally, and 3D does height as well?

This would be the pre/pro, right?

I've had a home theater setup for years dating back to laserdics, but I've never actually understood the pre/pro, amp thing...only AVRs. Can someone here give a quick rundown of the pros and cons? And is it worth investigating if one lives in a relatively small three-story townhome/condo?

Wish I lived near Orlando! :D

Thanks.

JP

Pre-pro/amp vs. AVR Generally speaking:

By combining preamping and amping in one box, an AVR must have critical design thought as to layout, componentry, pathways, etc. in order to deliver best SQ. This is not always the case with mass produced items. With yearly remodeling, AVRs though have upper hand on latest processing codecs and sometimes features. AVR amping is considered less well designed and capable. Speaker selection requires thought to mate well with AVR amping, especially in the 4 Ohm or lower range.

Pre/pros/amps separate functions, generally use better quality components and almost always offer better direct modes for 2 channel. Design is optimized for best SQ. Processors also routinely feature phono amping. A separate amp delivers cleaner power on a comparative basis with cleaner signal reproduction and Bass control, to name a few.

Many folks, like myself, combine the two approaches and use a quality receiver with features we desire as pre/pro with an external amp.

Townhouse/condo living really has no bearing on whether to go separates or AVR. Dedicated listening spaces can make a difference in the AV experience but are not necessary. Depending on construction (cinderblock firewalls, etc.) townhouse/condo units are quite capable of handling high levels for HT or Audio without unnecessarily disturbing neighbors. The growth and progress of Room EQ has gone a long way to optimizing sound quality in difficult environments.

Pre-pro/amp vs. AVR Generally speaking:

By combining preamping and amping in one box, an AVR must have critical design thought as to layout, componentry, pathways, etc. in order to deliver best SQ. This is not always the case with mass produced items. With yearly remodeling, AVRs though have upper hand on latest processing codecs and sometimes features. AVR amping is considered less well designed and capable. Speaker selection requires thought to mate well with AVR amping, especially in the 4 Ohm or lower range.



I would echo the comments on the amps. Generally, AVRs get dinged for less than stellar amp sections with over-rated power output estimates. ICEpower is becoming more popular, and only the flag-ship Pionner AVR has ICEpower built-in. So as ClarkeBar said, it's very popular to use a standard AVR such as the Denon or Onkyo to get all the wiz-bang features and pair it with a separate amp.

In addition, amps can give you many, many years of service and don't become quickly outdated. Get a good D-Sonic, Wyred 4 sound or Rotel ICEpower amp and it would power your system for many years.

AVRs change almost yearly, so you can preserve your investment in your amp, while more frequently upgrading your AVR to get the latest CODECs, HDMI, network features, etc.

I've had a home theater setup for years dating back to laserdics, but I've never actually understood the pre/pro, amp thing...only AVRs. Can someone here give a quick rundown of the pros and cons?
There are different thoughts on separates. Here are the arguments for separates:
1) You can choose the best products from each manufacturer. So if Krell makes the amp you want, but Lexicon make the pre-amp you can get the best of both worlds.
2) By their very nature, separates are better because they don't have heat buildup from the amp interfering with chips in the preamp (and any other such issue).
3) Probably never need another amp in your life - why buy a 7 channel amp every time you need to decode the latest DTS or to get HDMI 1.3, just buy a new preamp.
4) Same as #3, but if the amp blows, why buy a preamp, just get a new amp.

Here's the A/V argument:
1) Lower cost of entry
2) You're going to need a new amp when 7 channels becomes 9 channels - it wasn't too long ago that 5 channels was standard
3) You don't even get a tuner! How can you listen to the radio
4) Sound quality - bah! I'd like someone to do a blind A/B test between a B&K amp and a B&K A/V - you won't hear the difference.
5) A/V's are so reliable you don't have to worry about the amp blowing.
6) A new A/V that decodes DTS-MA and has HDMI 1.3 costs about the same as a new pre-amp, so no long term cost savings there.

I use to have an NAD T773, but just spent $1,750 on a new NAD T775 - why? Because I needed HDMI. The NAD T175 preamp only cost $1,450, so I spent $300 more on the A/V receiver than if I had originally bought separates. That said, the NAD T975 amp would have cost me another $1,750 - so by buying another A/V receiver I'm still ahead by $1,450. The other side of the argument is the T975 amp is more powerful than my T775 A/V receiver, so I'm settling for less.

It's really a bunch of trade offs that require each consumer to make their own decision.

And is it worth investigating if one lives in a relatively small three-story townhome/condo?I think it is worth investigating - the decision may be to stay only with A/V's, but you should think about the issues associated with each product type.

ClarkeBar, yngdiego and SimpleTheater,

Thank you for the time you took to answer my questions. It's silly, but I've been intimidated-slash-intentionally ignorant of separates because, well, I just thought it was for the high-end or power-hungry crowd. I see now the benefits and disadvantages of having an amp connected to an AVR or pre-pro. I'm actually getting geeked at the idea of adding an amp to my system! Though, I'm sure the cooler, financial side of my brain will kick in after I've slept on it. Looking at $2K for a receiver and then dropping another $1,500 for yet another piece of equipment might be hard to justify (read: sell to my wife!).

Meanwhile, back to waiting for more information on the impending release of the R-8/972.

Thanks, again.

JP

Looking at $2K for a receiver and then dropping another $1,500 for yet another piece of equipment might be hard to justify

One issue with receivers is the net cost of upgrades. You will notice that AVRs typically lose 50% of their resale value when new models with new/more bells & whistles are released.

Let's look at the situation of existing SN 965 series owners wishing to upgrade to 972. Those who went the R965 route need to purchase a R972. Those who went the P965 +A965 route paid ~ 50% more; but now can wait for the P972 (or whatever it will be called) to be released.

Touching on earlier posts; while the A965 is a good value amp, there are amps for a few hundred $ more (such as those from NAD, B&K and Parasound) that are better at driving speakers with low efficiency or low impedence.

And look at the new NAD AVRs - typically NAD - great amps, but with prepros lacking support for many of the newer formats + lots of bugs.

So with separates for example, I would expect the combination of the new SN P972 + NAD amp to give superior flexibility and performance to any AVR that either SN or NAD make.

I again bought external amps. I have been using a Pioneer 59txi with the internal amps most recently. I decided to get off the Lexicon Upgrade merry-go-round and sold off my 9 MA 500's and my Lexicon processor a couple years ago.

The MA 500's were heating the house and the Lexicon upgrade costs were at least 1k per year.

I bought a Power 5 and Power 2 NHT amp and plan on getting the SN prepro when it comes out. The NHT's do not crank out much heat at all. In the meantime I bought a Pioneer 94THX to use as a prepro. Its not too expensive and probably will hold its value reasonably well until the SN piece comes out.

I simply want HDMI switching and processing right now. I'm familiar with the Pioneer Elite line and figure I will keep the amps for a LONG time. It also has some features few others do at it's price point.

Larry

I sincerely hope that the new SN receiver and pre/pro will have USER upgradeable firmware. Receives are so complex today and standards so lose, that its impossible to release bug-free devices. I can tell you easy firmware upgrades was one reason why I got a Denon 3808 to hold me over until I can evaluate the 2008 SN devices.

USB stick, network or serial cable (not fond of serial...) would all suffice. Taking it into a service center is NOT a good option for people. Why? May not have a local service center, sometimes service centers have long back logs, getting the receiver in/out of the HT can be hard, etc.

If the new SN hardware does not allow users to perform upgrade upgrades, no matter how good Trinnov or the other features it, it's probably a deal breaker for me.

Denon, Onkyo, NAD, Yamaha, etc. have all required firmware updates to fix problems, some more serious than others.

I sincerely hope that the new SN receiver and pre/pro will have USER upgradeable firmware. Receives are so complex today and standards so lose, that its impossible to release bug-free devices. I can tell you easy firmware upgrades was one reason why I got a Denon 3808 to hold me over until I can evaluate the 2008 SN devices.

USB stick, network or serial cable (not fond of serial...) would all suffice. Taking it into a service center is NOT a good option for people. Why? May not have a local service center, sometimes service centers have long back logs, getting the receiver in/out of the HT can be hard, etc.

If the new SN hardware does not allow users to perform upgrade upgrades, no matter how good Trinnov or the other features it, it's probably a deal breaker for me.

Denon, Onkyo, NAD, Yamaha, etc. have all required firmware updates to fix problems, some more serious than others.

At least we know the new R/P-972 have the requisite hardware to make your request a possibility. That's a good sign. Given the relatively low number of S/N dealers (compared to other brands), I think S/N realizes it would be a nightmare for their dealers if the units had to be sent in. Since the chances of firmware updates being necessary are quite high, I can imagine many dealers pulling the line. For that reason alone I think S/N will strongly consider end user applied updates. It really should be just as easy to apply and much easier on everyone involved.

At least we know the new R/P-972 have the requisite hardware to make your request a possibility. That's a good sign.

What requisite hardware would that be? Not doubting you...just curious. I know the brochure said upgradeable firmware but left out a key word "user."

Current units are user upgradeable. I see no reason why subsequent models would deviate from that model.

Jeff

Current units are user upgradeable. I see no reason why subsequent models would deviate from that model.

Jeff

Sweet! Glad to hear SN is on the leading edge. :) In the 972 brochure you might want to add "User" in front of the Upgradeable Firmware bullet point.

I seem to be looking in vain for a reasonably priced (~$1000) avr that will do the following (what I consider to be) basic things.

(1) Properly sum the LFE channel and the redirected bass so as to not chop off/roll off LFE material above the crossover point.

For more on the issue see,

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=991439

(2) Properly boost the LFE channel sent over HDMI.

For more on the issue see,

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=748147

(3) Properly implement PLIIx so that it can be layered on top of 5.1 LPCM sent over HDMI as well as on top of lossless 5.1 decoded in the AVR.

(4) Properly process discrete 7.1 LPCM sent over HDMI or decoded in the AVR.

(5) Properly pass through 1080 video (e.g. without sparklies).

(6) Properly sync audio and video.

(7) Properly cool itself so that no extra fan is needed.

(8) Have preouts.

(9) Have reasonable DACs.

Any chance the new SN offerings will fit the bill?

Wonder what'll come first, a BD player with profile 2.0 or the R-972 :D.

Still patiently waiting .... wonder if Jeff get's to demo one at home.

I seem to be looking in vain for a reasonably priced (~$1000) avr that will do the following (what I consider to be) basic things.

(1) Properly sum the LFE channel and the redirected bass so as to not chop off/roll off LFE material above the crossover point.

For more on the issue see,

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=991439

(2) Properly boost the LFE channel sent over HDMI.

For more on the issue see,

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=748147

(3) Properly implement PLIIx so that it can be layered on top of 5.1 LPCM sent over HDMI as well as on top of lossless 5.1 decoded in the AVR.

(4) Properly process discrete 7.1 LPCM sent over HDMI or decoded in the AVR.

(5) Properly pass through 1080 video (e.g. without sparklies).

(6) Properly sync audio and video.

(7) Properly cool itself so that no extra fan is needed.

(8) Have preouts.

(9) Have reasonable DACs.

Any chance the new SN offerings will fit the bill?

Seems like pretty obvious things that should be done right. The cooling issue is probably the least likely on the list. AVRs and amps in general tend to get hot... and I doubt there will be room in the case for excessive (proper) cooling. I expect the rest.

edit: obviously we won't know for sure until it hits the market (and AVSers run it through its paces :D).

Jeff; there is one concern I have about the Trinnov's optimization of the loudspeaker positions; I might be out to lunch here, but follow me on this...

Somebody in this forum who heard a demo of the Trinnov system, reported that it was capable of making a center speaker positioned below ear-level, appear as if it was raised up to ear-level. This sounds pretty cool, but from my limited experience with 3D audio, sound re-positioning in 3D space requires 2 elements; one is frequency colouration (e.g. lower elevation sounds tend to be heard with reduced high frequencies, and the higher frequencies return as the sound source elevates.). The other requirement however, is a binaural delay -- that is to say, it requires a left and right-positioned signal to achieve the proper inter-aural delay to trick your brain into thinking a sound has moved into a position where there is no physical speaker.

That being the case, wouldn't the Trinnov optimizer then need to create a 'phantom' center speaker by mixing the center channel information into the left and right speakers? If so, then this is a problem for me. My front left/right speakers do not reproduce dialog as clearly as my center speaker, which was made specifically for that task. I would much rather have my dialog coming from my center channel *below* ear-level, then to have it 'muddied' by my left and right channels just to trick my ears into thinking that the sound is at ear-level.

Hopefully my fears are unfounded -- I mean the whole Trinnov experience is one of the motivating factors for me waiting for the R-972, so I would hate to have to bypass it...

"sound re-positioning in 3D space requires 2 elements"

A single speaker doesn't need to and can't reproduce 3-D.

All that's needed here is 1-D, the height dimension.

You shouldn't be buying a receiver this expensive if your speakers can't even handle dialogue clearly.

"sound re-positioning in 3D space requires 2 elements"

A single speaker doesn't need to and can't reproduce 3-D.

All that's needed here is 1-D, the height dimension.

Er... I don't think you understand what I'm saying.

"A single speaker doesn't need to and can't reproduce 3-D."

Well your statement is partially true; a single speaker *can't* reproduce 3-D, and that's what I said in my original post. You need 2 speakers to reproduce a 3D effect, and that was my actual concern. The very fact that this channel's audio is apparently able to re-position to a coordinate outside of the speaker's physical location (I believe the poster described the sound as appearing to be "floating" and "disembodied") seems to indicate that it does require some sort of 2-speaker HRTF-like 3D effect, which would require the use of the front-left and front-right speakers. In 3D audio, even moving a sound on one axis (in this case the 'z' or 'elevation' plane) requires the use of HRTF's to achieve the "out-of-speaker" effect. Also consider that if your sweet-spot is off-center, the Trinnov optimizer would have to virtually re-position the speaker's azimuth as well.

One possible explanation is that if your sweet spot is at the same azimuth position as the center speaker, then the optimizer might just do a simple frequency shift to 'cue' your ears that an elevation change has occurred, and maybe that's enough to trick your brain into thinking that the sound is floating. If that were the case then the left/right speakers need not be involved, and you'd just need to make sure to physically position your center speaker and seating position so that the optimizer wouldn't need to adjust its azimuth.

--Edit: The more I think about it the more I realize that this is probably the case. A dead-center sound probably has no need for an inter-aural difference -- only a frequency change would be needed in order to indicate that the sound is being elevated. I'm not sure that this could create a 'disembodied floating' effect as cool as was previously described, but then again I didn't hear it. Regardless, if true then this would use my center channel almost exclusively (provided I position my center speaker and listening position appropriately). --

I don't know... just throwing this out there, and trying to keep the discussion alive.

You shouldn't be buying a receiver this expensive if your speakers can't even handle dialogue clearly.

Right, but I didn't say my speakers can't handle dialogue clearly. I'm saying that my center channel handles dialog *more* clearly, and given the choice I'd rather that one be used for dialog.

Seems like a reasonable question to me. What's so difficult to understand, guys?

"A dead-center sound probably has no need for an inter-aural difference -- only a frequency change would be needed in order to indicate that the sound is being elevated."

That was my assumption.

"A dead-center sound probably has no need for an inter-aural difference -- only a frequency change would be needed in order to indicate that the sound is being elevated."

That was my assumption.

Fair enough. However I'm still pretty sure that the optimizer would compensate for slightly off-center listening positions by employing the left and right channels to 'balance' the sound. Probably not a huge deal provided that a) our assumption is correct, i.e. that only a frequency change is required to present the 'elevated' effect, b)the optimizer continues to put the majority of the energy into the center speaker, and c)the listener has done their best to center the listening azimuth position relative to the center speaker.

BTW I can't wait to hear reports from the demonstration in Fl.!

Does anybody else think that that it's pretty awesome that the Trinnov system can actually cancel out the first order reflections (among the many other things it's perported to do)? I'm still building my media room, but I've got laminate floors and an oddly shaped room and have made absolutely no attempt at absorbing reverb, so this was a prime concern.

I know that Audessy is supposed to correct for room issues, but does it make any attempts at cancellation?

Does anybody else think that that it's pretty awesome that the Trinnov system can actually cancel out the first order reflections (among the many other things it's perported to do)? I'm still building my media room, but I've got laminate floors and an oddly shaped room and have made absolutely no attempt at absorbing reverb, so this was a prime concern.

I know that Audessy is supposed to correct for room issues, but does it make any attempts at cancellation?

I agree the concept sounds pretty neat. But as they say, proof will be in the pudding. It would seem to me the Trinnov system would need large amounts of DSP processing to do everything they claim and I'm not sure how they shoehorned a $13K system into a $1500 receiver. I would think some Trinnov features would have to be dropped to help cut the costs.

Hopefully some people will be in Orlando this week and can report back to us how it sounds. It would be nice to hear their exact same setup with Audyssey to compare/contrast the differences. I also think no amount of DSP processing from ANY room EQ system is a substitute for good room acoustical treatments.

You can put lipstick on a pig, but it's better to get a better looking animal to being with, then dress it up. :)

I agree the concept sounds pretty neat. But as they say, proof will be in the pudding. It would seem to me the Trinnov system would need large amounts of DSP processing to do everything they claim and I'm not sure how they shoehorned a $13K system into a $1500 receiver. I would think some Trinnov features would have to be dropped to help cut the costs.

Good point. However, the most mathematically intensive part of the process will be the data collection it does during initial setup, which theoretically only has to be done once. Then it's just a matter of applying the collected data to inter-channel delays and EQ, all of which are already built into most receivers anyway.

AFAICT, the only voodoo here is the room cancellation, which it does by taking the dry sound, making a phase-flipped copy of it, reducing its amplitude to match that of your room reflections (which it knows from the data it collected during your initial setup), then adding it back into the mix after a delay that was also determined during the initial setup. This is actually less processor intensive than those cheap-o noise cancellation headphones made by Motorolla. (--Edit - Of course this is a huuuge over-simplification... --)

From what I've read it seems like they cut back by reducing the number of FIR taps, and they're using a slower processor. So it's just going to require a longer initial setup time, which I can certainly live with.

Hopefully some people will be in Orlando this week and can report back to us how it sounds. It would be nice to hear their exact same setup with Audyssey to compare/contrast the differences.

I am so psyched...

From what I've read it seems like they cut back by reducing the number of FIR taps, and they're using a slower processor. So it's just going to require a longer setup time, which I can live with.


Longer setup time is fine with me as well. I am a tad concerned about the reduced FIR traps. Clearly you know way more about this than I do, and I hope their reduction does not reduce the quality for us home users. I can imagine their cinema versions need more horsepower for all of the channels.

I know that Audessy is supposed to correct for room issues, but does it make any attempts at cancellation?
Yes, it does. At low frequencies, the room is largely a minimum-phase filter with large response near resonances. Audyssey calculates the correcting filter, also minimum phase, which will, at least partially, cancel the effect of the room, so the impulse response doesn't ring as much.

Longer setup time is fine with me as well. I am a tad concerned about the reduced FIR traps. Clearly you know way more about this than I do, and I hope their reduction does not reduce the quality for us home users. I can imagine their cinema versions need more horsepower for all of the channels.

Right, the number of channels is the other thing that's reduced, by extension of the fact that this is only a 7.1 receiver. Additionally they probably don't collect and apply data for as many possible frequency bands, which would potentially result in a bit of a compromise, but for a home theatre system this is still pretty awesome. I guess we'll see...

Wow, I've been looking at room treatments since after my kitchen remodel I have echos (changed one wall of the theater and I the biggest problem was got rid of that popcorn ceiling which, despite being ugly, I think was good for the room accoustics).

Room accoustic stuff has been really hard for me to research (if anyone has any good info let me know) as I don't have much money left after the remodel (and I gotta save it for the SN 972!) and was hoping a few well placed treatments could help a lot - however everyone has different opinions and it seems you almost need to hire a professional to analyze your space ($$$!).

So this sounds like great news - that possibly the 972 could help with room reflection issues AND I don't have to have the WAF battle that room treatments would require :) I'm trying not to get TOO hyped on the 972 becuase that makes it harder to wait AND usually leads to disappointment.

Room accoustic stuff has been really hard for me to research (if anyone has any good info let me know) as I don't have much money left after the remodel (and I gotta save it for the SN 972!) and was hoping a few well placed treatments could help a lot - however everyone has different opinions and it seems you almost need to hire a professional to analyze your space ($$$!).



I spent A LOT of hours in the AVS acoustical treatment master thread. While it's OT for this thread, I found it very helpful. Basically I got A LOT of OC703 material, GOM fabric, and made my own acoustical treatments. Vastly cheaper than buying pre-made units. Treating corners with bass traps and all first reflection points is the best place to start.

I don't think you need a pro to come in and do it, if you perform careful research. Any room EQ software will greatly benefit from a treated room as it won't have as much 'crap' to deal with, IMHO. There'a also some free software to help find your first reflection points, or just use the mirror trick.

Will the new SN AVRs support 7.1 channel HDMI input of 24 bit/192KHz material with full DSP processing? I realize there's very little, if any, material currently using such high sampling rates. But I expect my next receiver to be my last for a few years, and would like to know its future proofed.

The new Onkyo receivers, for example, will NOT process 24/192KHz material for all 7.1 channels. It does not seem to be a HDMI specification limitation, as long as 720P or higher video is being passed along with the audio.

Shanksworthy:

Here's what I know about Trinnov.

The Trinnov Optimizer does not use HRTF curves to raise, lower, or remap the sound stage. While I do not understand how the remapping works, Trinnov has told me that they use the Bessel-Fourier transform to calculate the coefficients to control the wave front from each speaker.

I am told that the audiophile and professional versions of Trinnov offer the same number of FIR taps but differ in the number of IIR filters available.

Jeff

I am told that the audiophile and professional versions of Trinnov offer the same number of FIR taps but differ in the number of IIR filters available.

Jeff

And how will those differ from what the 972 will offer? Should we assume it will be scaled down even further?

Another feature request/comment. Hopefully the 972/pre-pro will provide full control of dual subs? Meaning distance, level, etc. Not a super common configuration, but providing ".2" control would be a nice bonus feature for those with such a configuration.

Full HDMI-CEC support would be greatly appreciated as well. :)

"Does anybody else think that that it's pretty awesome that the Trinnov system can actually cancel out the first order reflections"

I know Audyssey claims to, but didn't realize that Trinnov did.

But it seems to me the cancellation signal becomes an echo if you move several feet away from where the mike was.

"the most mathematically intensive part of the process will be the data collection it does during initial setup, which theoretically only has to be done once. Then it's just a matter of applying the collected data to inter-channel delays and EQ, all of which are already built into most receivers anyway."

Not so sure about that; Chris at Audyssey says the reason their standalone unit has more filter res is because it has more DSP resources.

"the most mathematically intensive part of the process will be the data collection it does during initial setup, which theoretically only has to be done once. Then it's just a matter of applying the collected data to inter-channel delays and EQ, all of which are already built into most receivers anyway."

Not so sure about that; Chris at Audyssey says the reason their standalone unit has more filter res is because it has more DSP resources.But, also, the data collection/calculation is off-boarded to the PC with the AudysseyPro software and that supports the above quote.

Understood, just pointing out that the on-board resources are also a limitation.

Glad to see you join this thread, Kal.

I don't know how far along the development is for the forthcoming pre/pro, but I thought it might be nice to gather some input from people on what major features they would like to see. I'm talking about realistic features that SN could reasonably add.

After all, it's features and quality that sell, so if they can knock out several of the most common and best selling features, I think it would do nothing but help boost sales.

I have no connection to SN, but hopefully they will monitor this thread and at least take into consideration reasonable feature requests.

I'll work up a short list of features and post it in a few days.

Ok, couldn't wait to post a feature request, so here's my first shot. Not comprehensive by any means, but these are the features that first came to mind.

1. Network interface
a. Snazzy web interface for controlling all settings.
b. Ability to backup/restore all settings to a file on a PC
c. Remote control capability (telnet commands?) so a PC can issue commands and get status back.
d. DNLA certified for playing audio over a network
e. Internet radio streaming


2. Full DSP processing of up to 24/192KHz 7.1 audio.
3. Dual sub-woofer output with individual level, distance, cross-over settings.
4. XLR balanced outputs
5. HD Radio Support
6. HDMI-CEC Support
7. Volume trim for each audio input
8. USB port for playing audio (MP3, WMA & WPA Pro, WAV, FLAC)
9. Reon or Realta video processor
10. Rich set of discreet IR codes for a large amount of functions.
11. Toroidal transformer (not sure if that's important w/o an amp section)
12. "Advanced" Trinnov room correction (if there's room for improvement over what will be in the 972)
13. THX certificiation (I know, I know, I'm mostly just interested in the DSP processing modes it adds)
14. 4-6 HDMI inputs, two HDMI outputs
15. At least dual 12v triggers
16. Decoding of all HBR audio formats bit depths, and sampling frequencies.
17. Snazzy OSD with professional graphics and ease of use
18. User upgradeable firmware
19. Dolby Volume
20. Reon/Realta scaling and noise controls assignable PER INPUT and PER resolution.
21. Robust FM tuner for weak stations and Radio Data System (RDS) support
22. (Edit) On front panel add speaker channel input and output configuration display (5.1, 6.1, 7.1, etc.) like Denon.
23. (Edit) A/D converters on analog inputs so they can be subject to full DSP/Trinnov/EQ/Bass processing.

Sounds like a nice list but I'm sure those features would jack up the price substantially.

Sounds like a nice list but I'm sure those features would jack up the price substantially.

I agree some features like Realta, THX certification, and A/D conversion for multi-channel analog inputs would certainly jack up the price. I would be surprised if those made it in the shipping product, but I do think they would be killer features that would draw people into the SN line of equipment.

But a lot of the other features are already common on sub-$2000 devices from other companies, or are simply firmware additions that wouldn't have to be in the product at launch time.

I just returned from the Sherwood R-972 demo at the Peabody Hotel here in Orlando. What an amazing piece of hardware... Jeff did a fantastic job demoing the Trinnov and all of it's power. It's more then I ever imagined it was, words simply can't describe it's capabilities, at least my words... It really can fix a bad setup. The setup was a typical 5.1 setup with HSU speakers and sub with the center on the floor. There was an extra sub and rear surrounds, but they weren't being used.

The Trinnov processing was still in a stand alone box. According to Jeff it was the Sherwood version of the software. He also said that the software is now on the TI chip and in the engineers hands, it just wasn't in his demo unit yet. Each input can have it own Trinnov settings which can be automatically engaged when the input is selected.

The build quality is bar none, nothing in it's price range compares that I've seen. A few things I noticed: The Ethernet jack is for the Trinnov microphone; the Wi-Fi looking antenna is the RF antenna; and no plastic... The unit was cold to the touch after being on all morning.

I am definitely going to get one of these when it's released in May/June.

Ken,

Was any new R-972 product documentation provided? If so, please scan it and post it.

Thx


I just returned from the Sherwood R-972 demo at the Peabody Hotel here in Orlando. What an amazing piece of hardware... Jeff did a fantastic job demoing the Trinnov and all of it's power. It's more then I ever imagined it was, words simply can't describe it's capabilities, at least my words... It really can fix a bad setup. The setup was a typical 5.1 setup with HSU speakers and sub with the center on the floor. There was an extra sub and rear surrounds, but they weren't being used.

The Trinnov processing was still in a stand alone box. According to Jeff it was the Sherwood version of the software. He also said that the software is now on the TI chip and in the engineers hands, it just wasn't in his demo unit yet. Each input can have it own Trinnov settings which can be automatically engaged when the input is selected.

The build quality is bar none, nothing in it's price range compares that I've seen. A few things I noticed: The Ethernet jack is for the Trinnov microphone; the Wi-Fi looking antenna is the RF antenna; and no plastic... The unit was cold to the touch after being on all morning.

I am definitely going to get one of these when it's released in May/June.

Ken,

Was any new R-972 product documentation provided? If so, please scan it and post it.

Thx
No, the info was the samething that Jeff has been emailing out.

Ok, couldn't wait to post a feature request, so here's my first shot. Not comprehensive by any means, but these are the features that first came to mind.

1. Network interface
a. Snazzy web interface for controlling all settings.
b. Ability to backup/restore all settings to a file on a PC
c. Remote control capability (telnet commands?) so a PC can issue commands and get status back.
d. DNLA certified for playing audio over a network
e. Internet radio streaming


2. Full DSP processing of up to 24/192KHz 7.1 audio.
3. Dual sub-woofer output with individual level, distance, cross-over settings.
4. XLR balanced outputs
5. HD Radio Support
6. HDMI-CEC Support
7. Volume trim for each audio input
8. USB port for playing audio (MP3, WMA & WPA Pro, WAV, FLAC)
9. Reon or Realta video processor
10. Rich set of discreet IR codes for a large amount of functions.
11. Toroidal transformer (not sure if that's important w/o an amp section)
12. "Advanced" Trinnov room correction (if there's room for improvement over what will be in the 972)
13. THX certificiation (I know, I know, I'm mostly just interested in the DSP processing modes it adds)
14. 4-6 HDMI inputs, two HDMI outputs
15. At least dual 12v triggers
16. Decoding of all HBR audio formats bit depths, and sampling frequencies.
17. Snazzy OSD with professional graphics and ease of use
18. User upgradeable firmware
19. Dolby Volume
20. Reon/Realta scaling and noise controls assignable PER INPUT and PER resolution.
21. Robust FM tuner for weak stations and Radio Data System (RDS) support
22. (Edit) On front panel add speaker channel input and output configuration display (5.1, 6.1, 7.1, etc.) like Denon.
23. (Edit) A/D converters on analog inputs so they can be subject to full DSP/Trinnov/EQ/Bass processing.

Here is my wish list for the Pre Pro

1. DLNA Support
2. Dolby Volume
3. Dual Subwoofer Support
4. 192khz throughout the chain
5. 2 12v Triggers
6. Slick OSD
7. Discrete On/Off commands on the remote
8. HDMI-CEC Compliance
9. 6 HDMI inputs 2 HDMI Outputs

Now that there is a date for their receiver I think I will wait till september and buy something cheap to tide me over.

Has anyone seen (well, listened to be more precise) one of these?

Did anyone take the offer in Orlando?

I have a question about the Trinnov microphone. Naturally all mics, even of the same model, will not perform exactly the same. The Audyssey Pro kit has an individually calibrated mic and pre-amp, so the software knows the exact correction curve to apply for the most accurate results.

Would there be room for noticeable improvement if SN offered a "pro" mic setup that had an individual calibration curve that could be uploaded to the 972? Maybe charge $100 or $150 for the "pro" mic.

I dare say that room calibration can only be as good as the mic and I'd like to squeeze the most out of the system as possible.

"Does anybody else think that that it's pretty awesome that the Trinnov system can actually cancel out the first order reflections"

I think it's pretty impossible.

Has anyone seen (well, listened to be more precise) one of these?

Did anyone take the offer in Orlando?
Yes, I saw and heard it in Orlando. The Trinnov does some pretty amazing things with EQ and Spatial mapping. The overall look and build quality of the unit was fantastic too.

Here is my wish list for the Pre Pro

1. DLNA Support
2. Dolby Volume
3. Dual Subwoofer Support
4. 192khz throughout the chain
5. 2 12v Triggers
6. Slick OSD
7. Discrete On/Off commands on the remote
8. HDMI-CEC Compliance
9. 6 HDMI inputs 2 HDMI Outputs

Now that there is a date for their receiver I think I will wait till september and buy something cheap to tide me over.
The Pre/Pro is supposed to be annouced at CEDIA the last I heard. I'm thinking of waiting myself since it will have soon additional features, i.e. Internet Radio and etc.

I think it's pretty impossible.I agree. If the 1st order reflection is coming off the wall/window, then to cancel it you'd have to stop sending any sound through the speaker, because as soon as sound comes out of the speaker you'll get 1st order reflections again.

Apart from the previously mentioned amps and keeping in mind the R-972 or the forthcoming pre/pro (A-972 ?), can a couple of you suggest decent sub-$1,500 dollar, seven-channel models (or should I still consider a five-channel)? I've been doing a lot of homework on this, but I'm still a little unsure of brands, etc.

Thanks!

JP

Ken/facke02, was anything else demonstrated besides the Trinnov performance? Were the video inputs/outputs being used? Did they demo True-HD or DTS-MA audio?

Apart from the previously mentioned amps and keeping in mind the R-972 or the forthcoming pre/pro (A-972 ?), can a couple of you suggest decent sub-$1,500 dollar, seven-channel models (or should I still consider a five-channel)? I've been doing a lot of homework on this, but I'm still a little unsure of brands, etc.

Thanks!

JP
I have a NHT Power5 amp in route to me that I plan on using with either the R-972 or A-972. It's a 5 channel ICEPower amp that's going for a crazy prise at the moment. I only have a 5.1 setup, so it great for me.

Here is the thread discussion http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1006934 on it.

I agree. If the 1st order reflection is coming off the wall/window, then to cancel it you'd have to stop sending any sound through the speaker, because as soon as sound comes out of the speaker you'll get 1st order reflections again.

Not true. Theoretically, during the initial data collection a smart process can detect the exact delay between the dry signal and the reflections, as well as their amplitudes relateive to the dry signal. So from then on the receiver would make a phase-flipped copy of everything it played, then would play *that* back using the delay and amplitude it initially calculated. It would be a constant stream of noise cancellation.

The only problem is that, as somebody pointed out, using this method you would only get the benefits of the noise cancellation if you were sitting in or near the sweet spot. Anywhere else and it would come out sounding like an echo. Also if you ever moved one of your speakers even a bit, you would need to re-calibrate.

Ken/facke02, was anything else demonstrated besides the Trinnov performance? Were the video inputs/outputs being used? Did they demo True-HD or DTS-MA audio?
Dioneo,

No, the demo was pretty much geared towards the Trinnov processing. I believe the Sony Blu-ray player was hooked up directly to a small LCD. Nothing in the way of True-HD or DTS-MA either that I remember.