Sherwood Newcastle R-872 & R-972 HDMI 1.3 receivers

[facke02]

Ken/facke02, was anything else demonstrated besides the Trinnov performance? Were the video inputs/outputs being used? Did they demo True-HD or DTS-MA audio?
Dioneo,

No, the demo was pretty much geared towards the Trinnov processing. I believe the Sony Blu-ray player was hooked up directly to a small LCD. Nothing in the way of True-HD or DTS-MA either that I remember.

[9suffix]

I have a NHT Power5 amp in route to me that I plan on using with either the R-972 or A-972.

Apologies to the discussion if this is getting too off-topic, especially in light of the fact that Sherwood sells amplifiers (though heighth and color are an issue for me)...

Thanks, facke02.

I've been reading up all day on the Power5. Very interesting!

It may or may not be important, but when you get yours can you tell me the build date? Should I be concerned if it was manufactured in 2005 or 2006?

JP

[parodielin]

I was wondering if there is any sound quality difference between 772 and 872. I know there are feature differences and I guess I can live with 772's features.

I'm currently using a HK AVR 635 and is thinking upgrading to HDMI so that I can do LPCM from my PS3. Would 772 or 872 match (or is better) on sound quality than the HK 635?

I have Axiom M60, VP150, QS8 and an Outlaw sub. My room isn't too big. I usually play at -22 for DVDs and -33 for CD on the HK 635.

Thanks for your advises!

[krholmberg]

Jeff...

Will the bass management features include a high pass (rumble filter) for the sub? I assume one can also set the crossover frequencies from each channel individually to the sub (the subs low pass filter).

Thanks,

Krister

[Stereojeff]

Krister:

Yes. Both low pass and high pass filters are available. During Optimizer setup, the -6 dB points are reported. The user can accept the recommendations or override the recommended choice. The Optimizer will provide appropriate EQ in either case.

Jeff

[Filthy McNasty]

I have Axiom M60, VP150, QS8 and an Outlaw sub. My room isn't too big. I usually play at -22 for DVDs and -33 for CD on the HK 635.



I would just email & ask Axiom directly. They are big supporters of SN offerings (+ online dealer) and should know better than anyone else.

[shanksworthy]

Jeff,

I have a strange request; I need you to sell me on the SN 972. I've been holding out for months and months while finishing my media room. And now that the media room is about 3 weeks away from completion, and there is still no SN 972, I'm starting to consider buying the comparable Marantz, Onkyo, or Denon. I hate to jump ship but I need *something* to drive my speakers during the 1-to-2 month wait, so I'm not sure what else to do.

I already know about the Trinnov and Raeon, but what I really need is to get excited about this thing again. Could you spin a little hype, or give us some inside information or something that will help re-kindle our interest and give me a compelling reason to wait?

[yngdiego]

Jeff,

Could you also comment on the DAC quality and configuration in the 972? I could be wrong, but seems the mass market AVRs generally skimp on the DAC quality. I'm looking for a very high quality analog section in my next AVR or pre-pro.

[krholmberg]

Ahh Jeff... now I have to clean my pants.

Get this thing out! My integrated amp is 8 years old... the R-972 will be perfect for my HT. It can't get here soon enough.

[9suffix]

...but what I really need is to get excited about this thing again. Could you spin a little hype, or give us some inside information or something...

Great idea, Shanksworthy!

Not only that, I'm starting to get excited about the pre/pro as an opportunity.

Jeff, is it assumed that the pre/pro will have at a minimum the features of the R-972? It might be my simple brain, but is it just the R-972 without the amp section?

JP

[krholmberg]

Please tell me it's still on for May. I can't wait to get this thing!

[broke_ht_nut]

Great idea, Shanksworthy!

Not only that, I'm starting to get excited about the pre/pro as an opportunity.

Jeff, is it assumed that the pre/pro will have at a minimum the features of the R-972? It might be my simple brain, but is it just the R-972 without the amp section?

JP

At the minimum I would expect to see balanced outputs and support for two subs. Who knows they may even get DLNA in there which would be a major bonus. Jeff also said it would have dolby volume on it as well which is very very welcome.

[9suffix]

Jeff,

In light of the pre/pro coming later this year, is there any news on a refreshing of the amp? Maybe the current one in black to match the new crop of S/N equipment?

JP

[krholmberg]

At the minimum I would expect to see balanced outputs and support for two subs. Who knows they may even get DLNA in there which would be a major bonus. Jeff also said it would have dolby volume on it as well which is very very welcome.

If I remember correctly, Jeff said he was going to see a demonstration of Dolby Volume. He also said the trial would be after the R-972s release. The fact that he mentioned the demo suggests they are interested in adding it to the R-972, but the timing suggests it would have to be as a firmware update if done at all. For all we know, they may be adding it to the pre-pro only.

[Desmo888]

For all of those who anticipate "other" features than the S/N announced set. S/N does 3rd party license; when the 965 series was the rage several companies licensed the platform and modded to their customer base - such as Boston and Outlaw. Boston's AVP7 series was a clone with basically cosmetic changes only. The Outlaw 990 included balanced output, enhanced crossover settings, and a few other features.

I anticipate the same process happening for the highly anticipated Sherwood/Newcastle release of the 97x series.

As far as the amplifier being upgraded, only time will tell. The A-965 is extremely clean and quiet (ie. noise free); some say it runs hot, but I have not noticed it. So it will be hard to improve on this amplifier. If Newcastle decides to "upgrade" I would expect to see an entirely new design rather than a few components altered. That being said, more power output would be nice!

[Jim Cate]

TomHuffman:

The R-772 will handle lossless audio over HDMI when it is decoded in the player to PCM. The R-872 can decode both the native lossless audio data and the PCM version thereof.

Jeff

Does the R-872 (and/or the R-972) decode and process multi-channel SACD received in its native format (not PCM) as available from the Oppo 980H?

Jim Cate

[Jim Cate]

I have now read nearly all of the (currently) 1006 notes in this string, and the SN 972 certainly seems to be one of the top choices among the HDMI-capable AVRs. Luckily, I didn't notice this discussion until recently, so I don't have as long to wait for the release of the 72 series. (I'm not gloating. - I appreciate the inputs and suggestions many of you have made to Jeff and SN since January 2007. Just happy I didn't have to follow the discussion for the full 12 months.)

The audio capabilities of the new Sherwood Newcastle AVRs are of particular interest to me, and I believe that Harmon Kardon has had a good reputation in that regard. I'm interested in using one as a preamp with external amps, for both analog stereo, SACD MC, and video. I'm assuming that the new units will have at least the same audio capabilities, including, for example, means for adjusting relative lfe level. - Is this correct? (Excuse my ignorance if this issue isn't relative to the new units with the Trinnov processor.)

I have one suggestion. During the past 12 months there have been a number of discussions in this thread comparing the SNs with AVRs of other manufacturers, sometimes noting problems others are having with units from Denon, Onkyo, NAD, etc. In view of the fact that the 972 isn't expected to be released until the May-June period, shouldn't we be comparing it with other AVRs expected to be on the market around that same time? For example, the second generation Onkyo 806 and 706 AVRs are expected to be released in a few months, and possibly a 906 somewhat later.- One would expect that at least some of the glitches that have been discussed at length regarding the 805 and 905's will have been addressed in these models, as well as in new and old models of other manufacturers. In other words, the market moves on, and it wouldn't be reasonable to compare the new SN AVRs, to be released this Spring, with units other manufacturers were selling last year. Which makes the choice more difficult, but perhaps more interesting. - Just a thought.

Jim Cate

[broke_ht_nut]

Hi Jim,

Good point. They will start to incorporate the new Dolby Volume and DLNA. The Denons already include DLNA and I am sure they will add Dolby Volume as well in their next batch of processors as will Onkyo.

None however use the Trinnov system which is significantly better than the Auddessy system most other processors are using but I am sure their higher end models will start to incorporate it very soon.

Dolby Volume will be very useful and I think DLNA is also a must so that is can play streaming media from digital sources. For the Pre Pro a must have would also be 2 subwoofer outputs under Trinnov control.

They are the most significant items, most of the other features are more bells and whistles which although nice to have are not deal breakers, even balanced outputs are not a deal breaker to me.

broke

[noah katz]

"None however use the Trinnov system which is significantly better than the Auddessy system..."

We hope so, but this has yet to be proven.

The initial impressions and reviews of Audyssey before it was widely released were at least as promising as what we've heard so far about Trinnov.

[krholmberg]

"None however use the Trinnov system which is significantly better than the Auddessy system..."

We hope so, but this has yet to be proven.

The initial impressions and reviews of Audyssey before it was widely released were at least as promising as what we've heard so far about Trinnov.

Very true. There was a lot of hype. It will be very interesting to see how the paired down version of the Trinnov system compares to the pro version, as well as how it compares with the paired down Auddessy and full pro versions.

[yngdiego]

Very true. There was a lot of hype. It will be very interesting to see how the paired down version of the Trinnov system compares to the pro version, as well as how it compares with the paired down Auddessy and full pro versions.

I hope it matches or exceeds the Audyssey Pro version. I can't see myself forking over $500 for a Audyssey Pro calibration. But as anything, this will be a 1.0 product in this release and there's always room for improvement.

In addition, I would imagine a home environment is dramatically different (sonicly worse) than a purpose built room like a movie theater or studio.

Since the 972 will have user upgradeable firmware, that should allow for updated Trinnov software over the life of the receiver.

[broke_ht_nut]

"None however use the Trinnov system which is significantly better than the Auddessy system..."

We hope so, but this has yet to be proven.

The initial impressions and reviews of Audyssey before it was widely released were at least as promising as what we've heard so far about Trinnov.

The difference is that you do not find Auddessy in professional studios and you do find Trinnov there. That in itself says a lot.

[yngdiego]

Jeff,

Can you comment on the DTS MA decoder chip that will be in the 972 and pre/pro? Apparently there is a defective part on the market that Onkyo, Yamaha and other's (not Denon) use which can cause speaker damage.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13449086#post13449086

[awtryau89]

I am an Audyssey Pro Installer and I will be evaluating the Trinnov System with Jeff this coming Thursday. I look forward to meeting Jeff and experiencing the Trinnov. I will report what I hear and I expect to be impressed. I do not expect to give a full comparison as I need to have both systems in my room but that will happen eventually. Audyssey Pro is very good and much better than standard Audyssey, even when activated in the Denon receivers. I am hoping Trinnov gives it some competition as it is unrivalled right now.

[Rayjr]

I just returned from the Sherwood R-972 demo at the Peabody Hotel here in Orlando. What an amazing piece of hardware... Jeff did a fantastic job demoing the Trinnov and all of it's power. It's more then I ever imagined it was, words simply can't describe it's capabilities, at least my words... It really can fix a bad setup. The setup was a typical 5.1 setup with HSU speakers and sub with the center on the floor. There was an extra sub and rear surrounds, but they weren't being used.

The Trinnov processing was still in a stand alone box. According to Jeff it was the Sherwood version of the software. He also said that the software is now on the TI chip and in the engineers hands, it just wasn't in his demo unit yet. Each input can have it own Trinnov settings which can be automatically engaged when the input is selected.

The build quality is bar none, nothing in it's price range compares that I've seen. A few things I noticed: The Ethernet jack is for the Trinnov microphone; the Wi-Fi looking antenna is the RF antenna; and no plastic... The unit was cold to the touch after being on all morning.

I am definitely going to get one of these when it's released in May/June.

This is exactly the same setup that they demoed at CES in Jan of 08.
I will say I was impressed...but I should be..I was listening to a 13K room correction box , not Trinnov in a 2K pre/pro
I would like to acually hear what Trinnov will sound like when it is in the sherwood. I may sound a little negative...but I have been to many a trade show , and seen many a product that when released to market isn't exactly what they promised.
I guess we will see when it is released.

RayJr

[noah katz]

"The difference is that you do not find Auddessy in professional studios and you do find Trinnov there."

Good point, it's an obvious positive to have a track record.

But it remains to be seen if it's ready for prime time in the common haphazard home acoustical environment.

[facke02]

This is exactly the same setup that they demoed at CES in Jan of 08.
I will say I was impressed...but I should be..I was listening to a 13K room correction box , not Trinnov in a 2K pre/pro
I would like to acually hear what Trinnov will sound like when it is in the sherwood. I may sound a little negative...but I have been to many a trade show , and seen many a product that when released to market isn't exactly what they promised.
I guess we will see when it is released.

RayJr

Per Jeff, the $13k box was supposedly running the R-972 software.

[yngdiego]

Jeff,

I have a question about the user upgradeable firmware. My former Onkyo 905 receiver did not allow end users to perform the DSP firmware updates. Apparently the DSPs were closed loop, so to speak, and thus the main firmware updates that users could do via the RS-232 port could not apply to the DSPs.

Can we assume in the SN AVR/pre-pro that *all* firmware can be updated by the user, including DSPs?

Thanks!

[SimpleTheater]

I've always believed speakers were more important than amplifiers. That said, I've always liked the sound of NAD amps and prefer them over most other brands - which brings me to my dilemma. One of my friends asked me three questions, the third of which I'm having a hard time answering.

Q1) If it was your money, would you buy an NAD or Sherwood?
Answer: Easy, an NAD, considering I have a T775 that I just bought.

Q2) Would you buy the better speakers in the same line?
Answer: Of course

Q3) If you only had $4,000 to spend on a 5.1 system which option would you choose?

Option 1)
Sherwood R-972
PSB T65
PSB C60
PSB S50
PSB Sub8

Option 2)
NAD T775
PSB T45
PSB C40
PSB B25
PSB Sub8

I'm certain you can see my dilemma - is the slight upgrade in the speakers worth the savings of getting the Sherwood? Unfortunately these two identical systems are not available for listening tests. The other problem is the Sherwood is available as a "pre-order", and according to the dealer the price will go higher once it is released.
---------------------------
Also posted same question on PSB Board / NAD Board

[DonoMan]

Better speakers are EASILY the more important choice. I wouldn't call NAD better than Sherwood, either. I had a NAD T753. My Pioneer Elite 91 beats it in every way, most notably features and SNR.

If you want something that's not going to get delayed for two more decades, then I'd go even cheaper and get a Pioneer 1018, unless you want the Reon/Realta chips. Sherwood will offer the Reon and Trinnov, so that is an improvement for sure, if you can wait.

[Shaade]

Any news about the release itself? Is Sherwood still shooting for May?

[shanksworthy]

Any news about the release itself? Is Sherwood still shooting for May?

Yeah I'm starting to wonder about that myself... Why was there such a long delay anyway?

Hopefully in the mean time, they've a)improved on the initial specs (like the power per channel), and b)have not incurred a price boost. It would be nice to be rewarded for our loyalty after waiting this long. :)

[SimpleTheater]

Any news about the release itself? Is Sherwood still shooting for May?My dealer said his Sherwood Rep is still saying end of April. I'm not holding out much hope because with only four weeks to go, you'd think they would have to be on the boats coming over by now to hit late April, and they should be more definitive if the units are in transit.

[9suffix]

Yeah I'm starting to wonder about that myself... Why was there such a long delay anyway?...

And, with no intention of being sarcastic, does this mean we should expect to wait a year for the pre/pro after it is officially announced?

In any case, I've just taken delivery of an amp and will be all ready for the pre/pro when it comes! :cool:

JP

[krholmberg]

I'm getting ancy, too.

[Robert Whitehead]

StereoJeff gave June as the month for start of production, not availability to consumers.

[facke02]

And, with no intention of being sarcastic, does this mean we should expect to wait a year for the pre/pro after it is officially announced?

In any case, I've just taken delivery of an amp and will be all ready for the pre/pro when it comes! :cool:

JP

Pre/Pro is to be announced at CEDIA this year, per Jeff when I visited with him in Orlando.

[9suffix]

Pre/Pro is to be announced at CEDIA this year, per Jeff when I visited with him in Orlando.

That's kind of what I thought.

I was just wondering that since they've done most of the hard work on the R-972 will it take very long for the pre/pro to hit the streets (as compared to nearly one and a half years for the receiver from its announcement). In the end, I can use the time to save money! :D

JP

[awtryau89]

Okay guys, I spent some time today with Jeff and the 972/Trinnov. The EQ system is amazing. I must say that Jeff pointed a few things out to me that lead me to believe the EQ system alone is a better implementation than the Audyssey system. All I will say is these "things" are in how the Trinnov handles the bass and subwoofer EQ. Once you get past the EQ to the remapping, interface and curve downloads, this system has the potential to be the best consumer EQ system on the market by huge margins. I am an Audyssey Pro Installer, huge Audyssey fan and I always will be. So this is a big statement for me to make about the system. I will say I was a good bit more impressed with the Trinnov system that I was at my original Audyssey demo using their $2500 standalone EQ. In that demo we had carefully controlled room acoustics, Triad In-Room Gold Platinum speakers and a Denon 5805 with a Krell amplifier. Jeff was working with less than stellar room conditions and Trinnov handled it easily. This was more impressive to me.

Now, for all of those in "can't wait" mode.....one word (over and over again)....patience!!! This system will be worth the wait. The 972 will probably not be here until June at the earliest so either go buy something else and get off this thread or be patient and be happier in the long run.;) As dealers, we all expressed to Jeff we cannot get these things soon enough and he told us that he wants one worse than we do. :D

Finally, I will say the receiver looks fantastic. With the piano black side panels it resembles the old Elite line and my unit will have those panels. Also, the new prepro is going to be shown at Cedia as most of you know. Jeff intimated that it will not be like the previous 965 units as it was basically the receiver without the amps. The new prepro will have some features that are not on the receivers. Jeff was not at liberty to share those things but I am real excited about what they will be doing with the prepro.

Just some quick impressions and something to tide everyone over for a few more days. Thanks Jeff for your hospitality and graciousness today in putting up with us and all our questions.

[facke02]

I'm in for the wait on the pre/pro. I saw Jeff's demo in Orlando and I agree completely, the Trinnov system is amazing... I know what I want for Christmas...

[yngdiego]

I'm in for the wait on the pre/pro. I saw Jeff's demo in Orlando and I agree completely, the Trinnov system is amazing... I know what I want for Christmas...

Well, I can stay I'm VERY excited to hear this news. I'm glad I returned my Onkyo 905, and got the Denon 3808 as a hold-me-over until the SN pre/pro comes out later this year.

I really hope the Pre/Pro has THX Select2 or Ultra2, so we get the Cinema DSP surround processing.

[shanksworthy]

Well, I can stay I'm VERY excited to hear this news. I'm glad I returned my Onkyo 905, and got the Denon 3808 as a hold-me-over until the SN pre/pro comes out later this year.

I really hope the Pre/Pro has THX Select2 or Ultra2, so we get the Cinema DSP surround processing.

Not a bad hold-over at all. I wish my 'temporary' receiver was that good... mine's an old Yamaha receiver with no HDMI or video up-conversion. And I have to steal it from the family room, so people watching TV in there will have to use the TV speakers.

[9suffix]

Thanks, Eric!

I'm even more geeked that I made the decision to separate my equipment.

Meanwhile, I really look for to visiting the local S/N dealer near me to hear the R-972 when it comes around.

JP

[krholmberg]

Eric...

With your experience with the "competition", I would call your impression the most important to date :D. No axe to grind... and no hidden agenda. Now, just to clarify, was the Trinnov Optimizer the stand alone unit, or did you listen to an actual R-972? If it's the stand alone unit, we still don't know how the pared down version will sound. It may be just as good, but it may not. Thanks for sharing your experience. The only damning thing about your review is confirmation of yet another delay :(. I wonder what keeps pushing it back.

[yngdiego]

The only damning thing about your review is confirmation of yet another delay :(. I wonder what keeps pushing it back.

I'd say the most damning thing is that the Trinnov might live up to the hype! :D Was kind of secretly hoping for a flop so I wouldn't have to upgrade yet again this year. :D Well OK, not really.

[noah katz]

Eric,

Thanks for your report.

"All I will say is these "things" are in how the Trinnov handles the bass and subwoofer EQ. Once you get past the EQ to the remapping, interface and curve downloads, this system has the potential to be the best consumer EQ system on the market by huge margins."

Could you elaborate on what you heard to inspire these comments?

[Stereojeff]

Krister;

The demo Eric heard was still using the Trinnov box as a "code bucket". The signal path was 5.1 analog out from the entry level Sony BluRay player into A to D cards in the Trinnov, 7.1 analog out from the Trinnov to the 7.1 direct in of the R-972. The code in the Trinnov box is the Sherwood Newcastle code. It was not the Trinnov "professional" code. What Eric heard and what I have demoed in every case is exactly what the R-972 owner will hear except that my Trinnov demos have a complete A to D and D to A cycle that will not exist with the final R-972 (and the DSP code is resident in a separate box and not yet inside the R-972). The speakers were a pair of Hsu STF-subs, 6 Hsu HB-1 bookshelf speakers, and the matching Hsu center channel speaker. MSRP for the entire system, R-972, two subs, 6 bookshelf speakers, matching center channel and the Sony BR player was roughly $4k but the sound is very, very good.

Personally, I continue to find this technology beguiling and a bit addictive. I can't wait to have the R-972 in my own system and want to share the experience of frequency accuracy with spatial accuracy with everyone who cares about sound.

Jeff

[awtryau89]

Eric...

With your experience with the "competition", I would call your impression the most important to date :D. No axe to grind... and no hidden agenda. Now, just to clarify, was the Trinnov Optimizer the stand alone unit, or did you listen to an actual R-972? If it's the stand alone unit, we still don't know how the pared down version will sound. It may be just as good, but it may not. Thanks for sharing your experience. The only damning thing about your review is confirmation of yet another delay :(. I wonder what keeps pushing it back.

Jeff answered for me....

[awtryau89]

Eric,

Thanks for your report.

"All I will say is these "things" are in how the Trinnov handles the bass and subwoofer EQ. Once you get past the EQ to the remapping, interface and curve downloads, this system has the potential to be the best consumer EQ system on the market by huge margins."

Could you elaborate on what you heard to inspire these comments?


Well, overall it was many things. First and foremost the bass was incredibly better. Trinnov is using a different and much more effective filtering for the frequencies below 250hz. Jeff can jump in and correct me if I am wrong. What basically happens in listening to the demo is your first impression is "where did all the bass go"? Then you realize how much more articulate and precise the bass is. The best impression is when you have a bass heavy scene in a movie clip, turning Trinnov off and on. When Jeff played LOTR he switched it on and off. Trinnov had corrected for a large room gain issue in the 60-80hz region. Without the EQ the bass was distorted and overblown and immediately noticeable. The main thing you did not realize was how much bass you were missing though. When the EQ was engaged everything cleared up, was clean and distinct but the amazing things was how much more low low bass you could here and feel.

Next, I would say the re-mapping of the speakers was incredible. Most people do not have perfect rooms and will really like this feature. I have a dedicated theater room i designed from the ground up. Even I do not have perfect positioning for my speakers though. I will use the SMPTE Cinema re-mapping for most of my movie watching. It will place the speakers in exact locations they should be according to the SMPTE specifications. I also look forward to trying the ITU multichannel music re-mapping for surround music. You know Denon already offers you the ability to separate surround speakers for music and movies. With the re-mapping, the Trinnov gives you the same option without using more speakers. The AIX curve will be fun too.

Overall, I look at this system as an Audyssey EQ on steroids. The Trinnov and Audyssey are trying to achieve the same things as far as frequency accuracy goes. Both offer a gentle rolloff in the high frequencies and target flat response throughout the rest of the band. Trinnov takes it a step further and adds a house curve in the bass though. From there Trinnov adds spatial accuracy as far as speaker height goes in their basic curves. Then with the re-mapping, you can go even further with spatial accuracy if you like. It will be neat to see what Sherwood offers down the road as I am sure this technology will not stand still.

[yngdiego]

I'm on the Audyssey forum a lot here on AVS, and one thing that consistently confuses people are the cross-over points Audyssey picks for speakers. Some manufacturers use different criteria for picking "small" or "large" speaker size (such as Denon and Onkyo). Audyssey says they are trying to get manufacturers to respect the Audyssey results, but they aren't having much luck.

Since SN controls their receiver and Trinnov, I hope the integration will be better and reduce or eliminate the confusion.

Speaking of Trinnov, does it or will it provide detailed before/after EQ graphs either on the receiver OSD or software/web site that can analyze the USB data file? I know a simple graph can't easily show frequency AND time domain shifts, but at least a frequency response graph for every channel would be nice.

It would also be sweet if it could produce waterfall graphs as well. :)

[awtryau89]

I'm on the Audyssey forum a lot here on AVS, and one thing that consistently confuses people are the cross-over points Audyssey picks for speakers. Some manufacturers use different criteria for picking "small" or "large" speaker size (such as Denon and Onkyo). Audyssey says they are trying to get manufacturers to respect the Audyssey results, but they aren't having much luck.

Since SN controls their receiver and Trinnov, I hope the integration will be better and reduce or eliminate the confusion.

Speaking of Trinnov, does it or will it provide detailed before/after EQ graphs either on the receiver OSD or software/web site that can analyze the USB data file? I know a simple graph can't easily show frequency AND time domain shifts, but at least a frequency response graph for every channel would be nice.

It would also be sweet if it could produce waterfall graphs as well. :)

Trinnov will report the -6db point of your speaker and you can choose to use that or another crossover point. I am not sure how it reports Large vs Small but I would think if you choose to cross over your speakers at any point, they would then be small. I am also pretty sure that the lowest value crossover point on the Sherwood is 40hz according to literature.

Graphs are handled a bit differently. No graphs will be available on the receiver or on screen. You will have the ability to download the Trinnov files from the receiver via front panel USB and upload them to Trinnov's website. From there they will be translated into graphs. The graphs that are shown are individual speaker before and after plots, speaker height re-mapping and ITU/SMPTE remapping. There may be more and Jeff can correct me if I missed some. This format is actually very similar to what Audyssey Pro does for the customer where we can upload our files to their website and create a printout of the results.

[yngdiego]

Graphs are handled a bit differently. No graphs will be available on the receiver or on screen. You will have the ability to download the Trinnov files from the receiver via front panel USB and upload them to Trinnov's website. From there they will be translated into graphs. The graphs that are shown are individual speaker before and after plots, speaker height re-mapping and ITU/SMPTE remapping. There may be more and Jeff can correct me if I missed some. This format is actually very similar to what Audyssey Pro does for the customer where we can upload our files to their website and create a printout of the results.

Excellent, thanks for the information. I'm really looking forward to getting real consumer feedback about the 972, and then picking up the pre/pro if the hype appears to be true (which it sounds like).

[noah katz]

Thanks, Eric, sounds really promising.

"From there Trinnov adds spatial accuracy as far as speaker height goes in their basic curves. Then with the re-mapping, you can go even further with spatial accuracy if you like. It will be neat to see what Sherwood offers down the road as I am sure this technology will not stand still."

It might take some encoding, but it just occurred to me that Trinnov has the potential to eliminate the tradeoff in choosing surround speaker positions - high for flyovers etc or low for voices etc.

[krholmberg]

Thanks Jeff and Eric...

This is very exciting news :cool:!!! I'm especially excited about the subwoofer stuff. My IB needs exactly what the R-972 offers :D.

[yngdiego]

Has anyone gotten technical specifics on how 'downgraded' the SN Trinnov is in compared to the commercial professional version? Of course it doesn't do as many channels, but I was wondering in terms of filtering and processing power how much had to be given up shrink it into a mid-priced AVR.

For example, if the professional version has x filters per channel, does the SN version have half or a quarter of the filtering capability?

[Stereojeff]

Regarding the "Large" vs. "Small" question, we have moved entirely away from that confusing nomenclature. On all of our recent products, speakers are "Present" or "Absent". If a speaker is present, it can be set as "Fullrange." Speakers that are not "Fullrange" are bass-managed.

Jeff

[krholmberg]

My understanding regarding setting up your system is you put your speakers where you want them and then do a sweep with the Trinnov Optimizer. It will then recommend frequencies for each speaker for where to cross them over to the sub. You can use the recommended crossover points or use your own. It doesn't matter. Once you've done that, you do a second sweep with the crossover set where you want it and the Trinnov Optimizer will really do it's magic to get a flat response (or one with a chosen house curve) as well as adjust the spatial location of each speaker.

[krholmberg]

One more point. The closer the speakers are to the preferred location and the better the passive acoustics in the room (dimensions and passive acoustic treatments), the larger the sweet spot will be after the Trinnov Optimizer does it's thing. This will obviously vary a lot from room to room and system to system.

[krholmberg]

Jeff...

If one has a dedicated theater and placement flexibility, I presume one could also use the Trinnov Optimizer to locate the best place to put each speaker which would minimize the work done by the R-972 and thus increase the size of the sweet spot. Does that sound right?

[rolandtk]

Jeff,
Will the REON chip allow for zooming of video content? Esp. bluray / hd? thanks.

[Filthy McNasty]

Looks like the time is coming to rename this thread to:
"Sherwood Newcastle R-972 Anticipation thread"
so that we can start an "Official SN R972 Owners" thread in May... or June.. or whenever

[Stereojeff]

Krister:

You're nearly correct. Trinnov measures each channel with a series of 1.2 second pink noise signals. When the measurement process is complete, computation begins. When "computation" is complete, the systems knows the location of your speakers to the nearest centimeter and their azimuth and elevation within 1.5 degrees. After computation, various filters can be applied to the signal. We will offer: bass only (Eq's all channels from 200 Hz and below with IIR filters); Align to L and R which matches the response of your front L/R using both FIR and IIR filters; and Full EQ, again with both FIR and IIR filters to match all channels to the target curve. The soundfields can be re-mapped to the ITU Surround Music standard or to SMPTE Cinema. Crossover frequency, selected EQ mode and remapping target, if any, are stored by input so they will be completely transparent in use. Changing the crossover frequency changes the filters but does not require new data acquisition.

As you suggest, the Optimizer can be used to locate speaker and such use is recommended by Curt Hoyt, Trinnov's US representative.

Jeff

P. S. It is at least of academic interest that our Atlanta demo used two subs placed at the center of the side walls per Todd Welti's work at Harman. The measured bass after EQ in this demo was within plus or minus 1 dB from above 100 Hz to 23 Hz.

[yngdiego]

StereoJeff, wow I'm so excited! You mentioned that these settings could be per-input, which is great. How about those of use that use our blu-ray or other DVD player for audio discs as well? Can the settings be per audio type as well, so it would automatically select a preset when we play audio CDs but switch when we put in a blu-ray disc?

Or at least have discrete IR codes for the presets so universal remote could change them?

[krholmberg]

WOW:eek:!!! The flexibility in this thing is phenomenal.

[fresno1232001]

Jeff- What are the odds that the 972 will be available for purchase in the United States before Dec. 31, 2008? What would you guess? I have reached the point where I plan to look in here every three months for a while and see if it is out. I don't think it is too much to say that this is getting ridiculous. I notice that there are only a few posters on here anymore, besides yourself.

There were probably companies promising a new camp stove or something in 1947. A couple of people are probably still waiting to buy it and they have been communicating with the company from that day to this. What is the name for that behavior?

Krister:

You're nearly correct. Trinnov measures each channel with a series of 1.2 second pink noise signals. When the measurement process is complete, computation begins.

As you suggest, the Optimizer can be used to locate speaker and such use is recommended by Curt Hoyt, Trinnov's US representative.

Jeff

P. S. It is at least of academic interest that our Atlanta demo used two subs placed at the center of the side walls per Todd Welti's work at Harman. The measured bass after EQ in this demo was within plus or minus 1 dB from above 100 Hz to 23 Hz.

[RolandOG]

Jeff- What are the odds that the 972 will be available for purchase in the United States before Dec. 31, 2008? What would you guess? I have reached the point where I plan to look in here every three months for a while and see if it is out. I don't think it is too much to say that this is getting ridiculous. I notice that there are only a few posters on here anymore, besides yourself.

There were probably companies promising a new camp stove or something in 1947. A couple of people are probably still waiting to buy it and they have been communicating with the company from that day to this. What is the name for that behavior?

This forum is damned lucky to have people like Jeff provide information on upcoming products and you go and post this drivel. Completely uncalled for.

[yngdiego]

This forum is damned lucky to have people like Jeff provide information on upcoming products and you go and post this drivel. Completely uncalled for.

Agreed! Jeff doesn't have to participate here, but he does. Insults like that are uncalled for. If you can't wait, then go buy something else. I for one will be patiently waiting for this great new technology and will be glad when it does come out. Yes delays are frustrating, but would you really have wanted the 972 with Audyssey or lacking other features just to get it out the door?

I'd rather have a polished, stable, and high quality device out the door later than expected than a rushed device with fewer features or lots of bugs. Onkyo rushed out their 07 line of AVRs, and even 6 months later they are still having firmware problems and PO'd users that swear they will never buy Onkyo again, like me.

[shanksworthy]

This forum is damned lucky to have people like Jeff provide information on upcoming products and you go insult one of them. Completely uncalled for.

I didn't read that as an insult. IMHO it was a perfectly reasonable question, and anybody who isn't overly-sensitive would see it that way too. No we should not feel a sense of 'entitlement' that Jeff is in here, but by the same token, if SN want us to stand loyally by and wait for this product (which I assume they do) then it would be in their best interest to represent. Which they are, in the form of Jeff, who is doing a really good job and probably has a perfectly reasonable answer to the question above.:)

***Edit*** and BTW I didn't mean to infer that you were being overly sensitive, I was just pointing out that Jeff probably isn't, and that there's no need to worry about him being offended by that question. Camp stove comments notwithstanding :-)

[RolandOG]

I didn't read that as an insult. IMHO it was a perfectly reasonable question, and anybody who isn't overly-sensitive would see it that way too. No we should not feel a sense of 'entitlement' that Jeff is in here, but by the same token, if SN want us to stand loyally by and wait for this product (which I assume they do) then it would be in their best interest to represent. Which they are, in the form of Jeff, who is doing a really good job and probably has a perfectly reasonable answer to the question above.:)

I changed it from 'insult' to drivel. You must have been quoting me while I was changing it. Regardless, I'm not overly-sensitive. The wait for the 972 has been beaten to death. Just when we start getting more concrete information regarding features and a production start date Fresno posts "December 31, 2008" and starts talking about camp stoves. Give me a break.

Some of us who didn't want to wait any longer simply bought another receiver (Marantz SR7002) and stopped posting in the thread. We didn't feel the need to beat a dead horse.

[shanksworthy]

I changed it from 'insult' to drivel. You must have been quoting me while I was changing it. Regardless, I'm not overly-sensitive. The wait for the 972 has been beaten to death. Just when we start getting more concrete information regarding features and an early summer production date Fresno posts "December 31, 2008" and starts talking about camp stoves. Give me a break.

Some of us who didn't want to wait any longer simply bought another receiver (Marantz SR7002) and stopped posting in the thread. We didn't feel the need to beat a dead horse.

I didn't get the camp stove reference either. Regardless, I'd still like an answer to his question, which I believe was sincere and not meant to be insulting. I plan on waiting, but how much longer I will wait definitely depends.

[krholmberg]

I didn't read that as an insult. IMHO it was a perfectly reasonable question, and anybody who isn't overly-sensitive would see it that way too. No we should not feel a sense of 'entitlement' that Jeff is in here, but by the same token, if SN want us to stand loyally by and wait for this product (which I assume they do) then it would be in their best interest to represent. Which they are, in the form of Jeff, who is doing a really good job and probably has a perfectly reasonable answer to the question above.:)

I agree. I think Fresno is well within his right to be frustrated. The fact is, this receiver was announced at CES '07 with an anticipated release of 08/07. It now looks like it won't be out until 06/08 at the earliest. I agree that the improvements have the potential to be truly phenomenal, but I also have the luxery of being able and willing to wait. For those that wanted it back in 01/07 but were willing to wait until 08/07, 06/08 much less 12/08 are a long way off. I would also be really frustrated if I had been intent on getting a new receiver last summer and was sold on what S/N revealed earlier that year.

[RolandOG]

I agree. I think Fresno is well within his right to be frustrated. The fact is, this receiver was announced at CES '07 with an anticipated release of 08/07. It now looks like it won't be out until 06/08 at the earliest. I agree that the improvements have the potential to be truly phenomenal, but I also have the luxery of being able and willing to wait. For those that wanted it back in 01/07 but were willing to wait until 08/07, 06/08 much less 12/08 are a long way off. I would also be really frustrated if I had been intent on getting a new receiver last summer and was sold on what S/N revealed earlier that year.

Frustrated, yes, but as I said, this discussion has been beaten. to. death. It's not up to Jeff when the thing is released so why ask him over and over again when he's already said all he can? Did we not just have a couple of posts about production start date?

I never said the long wait wasn't frustrating.

[krholmberg]

Frustrated, yes, but as I said, this discussion has been beaten. to. death. It's not up to Jeff when the thing is released so why ask him over and over again when he's already said all he can? Did we not just have a couple of posts about production start date?

I never said the long wait wasn't frustrating.

Points well taken. I agree... lets get back on topic!

[RolandOG]

Points well taken. I agree... lets get back on topic!

Agreed. :)

[noah katz]

Putting some perspective on it, it's a lot easier for us to wait than it is for the people trying to make it all work.

[Mo2k]

[QUOTE=yngdiego;13455172]
My former Onkyo 905 receiver did not allow end users to perform the DSP firmware updates. Apparently the DSPs were closed loop, so to speak, and thus the main firmware updates that users could do via the RS-232 port could not apply to the DSPs.
QUOTE]

OT, just updated my DSP's myself using the optical out of my DVD player. Instant lock and delays gone.

[cybrsage]

Personally, I think this will be the best receiver to output sound from Duke Nukem Forever...

The two should be released as a bundle.

;)


(If you do not get the reference, read the first paragraph of this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_nukem_forever).)

[shanksworthy]

Personally, I think this will be the best receiver to output sound from Duke Nukem Forever...

The two should be released as a bundle.

;)


(If you do not get the reference, read the first paragraph of this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_nukem_forever).)

OMG, are they still releasing that? Thought that was vaporwear, like 8 years ago!
(Kinda like this receiver... OHHHHH! Burn. :-) )
***Edit...*** okay, I just realized that that was the point of your comment. I am an idiot.

[fyzziks]

My former Onkyo 905 receiver did not allow end users to perform the DSP firmware updates. Apparently the DSPs were closed loop, so to speak, and thus the main firmware updates that users could do via the RS-232 port could not apply to the DSPs.


OT, just updated my DSP's myself using the optical out of my DVD player. Instant lock and delays gone.
You did more than just update the DSPs, didn't you? The instant lock-on is not a function of the DSP update, it's a function of the main firmware update to 1.08.

[JVi]

Jeff,

I have a question about the user upgradeable firmware. My former Onkyo 905 receiver did not allow end users to perform the DSP firmware updates. Apparently the DSPs were closed loop, so to speak, and thus the main firmware updates that users could do via the RS-232 port could not apply to the DSPs.

Can we assume in the SN AVR/pre-pro that *all* firmware can be updated by the user, including DSPs?

Thanks!

It is too bad you were mis-informed about the DSP update on the Onkyo. My Onkyo 875 was pretty simple to have the DSP's updated. Also, many others have now applied it to their 705/805/905/885/and a bunch of Integras.
The firmware update (V. 1.08) is now ready for the 905 and it widely reported to have fixed audio delay and lock on time issues that you and others reported.

[Mo2k]

You did more than just update the DSPs, didn't you? The instant lock-on is not a function of the DSP update, it's a function of the main firmware update to 1.08.

Yeah, 1.08 via rs232 and the dsp's via toslink. No problem.

[Filthy McNasty]

It is really annoying (for those of us who get an email alert when this thread is changed) is for ONKYO troubleshooting to go on here. This is a thread about SN 972/872. Please be considerate and use the proper thread.

[FreddyW]

Tempus06, are you just hoping for a second HDMI output or did I miss something? The recent brochure (which includes the CES 2008 Innovations logo) shows four (4) in and one (1) out. Thanks.

JP


Without 2 HDMI outputs, it would be a complete dealbreaker. At least for this consumer.

Take it from one who knows. I sold my P-965, went Denon 3808Ci. Without going into it again (see a previous post on this thread), I've been extremely happy. EXCEPT....I should have bought the 4308Ci. And yeah, SOLELY for the 2nd HDMI output.

Just a head's up- the HDMI-HDCP handshake issues are nightmares. External switches are a total hit or miss proposition. And it's certainly not just me having issues.

I'm still trying to gather myself to sell the 3808CI at a loss and buy the 4308CI, because NO switches I've tried have worked properly.

DUAL HDMI OUTPUTS on a PREMIUM AVR or Pre-Pro is an absolute must. Period.

[yngdiego]

DUAL HDMI OUTPUTS on a PREMIUM AVR or Pre-Pro is an absolute must. Period.


100% agree. While I'm personally not currently in a situation to need such a configuration, it could certainly happen in the future. I've seen many other posts as well from users needing dual HDMI outputs. Denon and Onkyo both do it, SN needs to as well.

[shanksworthy]

Without 2 HDMI outputs, it would be a complete dealbreaker. At least for this consumer.

Take it from one who knows. I sold my P-965, went Denon 3808Ci. Without going into it again (see a previous post on this thread), I've been extremely happy. EXCEPT....I should have bought the 4308Ci. And yeah, SOLELY for the 2nd HDMI output.

Just a head's up- the HDMI-HDCP handshake issues are nightmares. External switches are a total hit or miss proposition. And it's certainly not just me having issues.

I'm still trying to gather myself to sell the 3808CI at a loss and buy the 4308CI, because NO switches I've tried have worked properly.

DUAL HDMI OUTPUTS on a PREMIUM AVR or Pre-Pro is an absolute must. Period.

I find it hard to believe that *no* external switchers work correctly. There are so many! Hopefully somebody who has had success with a good external switcher can share their experience for everyone in this thread who might also be swayed away from this otherwise (potentially) excellent receiver just because of this omission.

[FreddyW]

I find it hard to believe that *no* external switchers work correctly. There are so many! Hopefully somebody who has had success with a good external switcher can share their experience for everyone in this thread who might also be swayed away from this otherwise (potentially) excellent receiver just because of this omission.

You'd think so, but there are massive threads all over the place that might belay that.

Some work, some do not. It's all about HDCP implementation in each item on the daisy chain (AVR, switch, monitor, BR player, game console, etc.).

LIMITING the amount of HDCP handshakes along the chain seems to be the best way. i.e.- having the AVR handle switches.

I don't know what's the hang-up for the AVR or Pre/Pro manufacturers. MANY AVR's offer dual (or more) component, s-video, composite, DVI outputs. The only reason I would think that maybe some do not is if there is a licensing fee to be paid to that HDMI group thing.

But still, If I'm paying over $1500 for an AVR, I want dual HDMI outputs. Let ME chose whether or not I use the second one. External scalers be damned- it's just another expense and another slot in the rack!

And as I recall, WAY back in Janary '07 (CES), the MARCH '07 release date for the new S-N units featured 6 HDMI inputs and 2 HDMI outputs.

No more, it seems......

[chrhon]

I need dual HDMI out as I wired my kitchen with HDMI - I always just figured one of the splitters would work and I could go with the 972.... bummer. Hopefully by the time the 972 is out there will be a splitter that works else FreddyW just rained on my 972 parade.

[Kal Rubinson]

You'd think so, but there are massive threads all over the place that might belay that.....
Wikipedia: "As a nautical term, belaying refers to making a line fast to a cleat, pin or other fixed object. In climbing, it refers to the practice of controlling the rope fed out to a climber."

[AudioBear]

I don't know what's the hang-up for the AVR or Pre/Pro manufacturers. MANY AVR's offer dual (or more) component, s-video, composite, DVI outputs. The only reason I would think that maybe some do not is if there is a licensing fee to be paid to that HDMI group thing.



It isn't fees -- if they are already paying for 4 in, 1 out there is no big deal to offer 6 in and 2 out (like Sony does--I think--don't quote me).

Sometimes it comes down to real estate on the back of the unit. If they would ditch some of those dated connectors like S-video and RCA analog plugs they would have more room for HDMI -- but then the legacy users would suffer. This has not been a painless transition. I am using a Radiient switch on my HT system until it gets sorted out.

If the world were a just place, the people who put HDCP on HDMI would be forced to pay for every user who has a handshake problem to have it fixed and make it good to them for their pain and suffering. They should also be required to spend 1000 hours doing therapy for their paranoia. All they are doing is hurting innocent users and they are not stopping the real digital pirates. But do they care about us? Not hardly, we're just consumers. It's ok if they make us buy new equipment and cables every year....wait a minute, maybe that's the plan.

[AudioBear]

I forgot to say that it may be that the 2 out sometimes causes handshake problems with the HDMI or some other technical glitch. It is curious that it isn't done more.

[krholmberg]

I have an old integrated amp without HDMI and it only has 1 optical and 1 coaxial digital input. I'm using a 3 x 1 HDMI switch and a separate 3 x 1 toslink switch and haven't run into any problems. Of course you're looking for a splitter and not a switch, but this may help some people. I think the brand of the swith is SIMA, but I'll have to look it up. Since it works, I haven't thought about it much so I don't remember the make and model.

[RoboRay]

I need dual HDMI out as I wired my kitchen with HDMI - I always just figured one of the splitters would work and I could go with the 972.... bummer. Hopefully by the time the 972 is out there will be a splitter that works else FreddyW just rained on my 972 parade.

Gefen makes a variety of nice HDMI distribution amps (splitters) that work great and are HDCP compliant. I use this one: http://www.gefen.com/kvm/product.jsp?prod_id=2514

They're not cheap, but they do work.

[FreddyW]

Wikipedia: "As a nautical term, belaying refers to making a line fast to a cleat, pin or other fixed object. In climbing, it refers to the practice of controlling the rope fed out to a climber."

Yes, yes :) I meant "belie." Sorry, mental slips do occasionally happen when you're supposed to be working and not browsing AV forums....

[Kal Rubinson]

Yes, yes :) I meant "belie." Sorry, mental slips do occasionally happen when you're supposed to be working and not browsing AV forums....I ain't your boss, so it's OK.

[krholmberg]

Any new news?

[cybrsage]

Wikipedia: "As a nautical term, belaying refers to making a line fast to a cleat, pin or other fixed object. In climbing, it refers to the practice of controlling the rope fed out to a climber."

I thought he used it correctly, but from this part of the definition:

3. (used chiefly in the imperative) a. to cease (an action); stop.


We used it in the Navy quite a bit "Belay that order".

So, his sentence could have read:

"You'd think so, but there are massive threads all over the place that might put a stop to that".

;)

Sorry, back to the actual topic.

[krholmberg]

That wasn't what I had in mind ;)... but I think you have a good point :D.

[9suffix]

That wasn't what I had in mind ;)... but I think you have a good point :D.

Hahaha... this is what we've been reduced to? :D

Anyone know if the R-872 has been released, yet?

JP

[jotronic]

I just put a down payment on a new 872 so no it's not released yet but the 772 went into full manufacturing, according to my local rep, on March 25th and is about to come into stores. It does all the HD audio decoding but only has two HDMI inputs.

[krholmberg]

That's good news:D, and hopefully an indicator that the 972 will come in the next few months.

[FreddyW]

I thought he used it correctly, but from this part of the definition:

3. (used chiefly in the imperative) a. to cease (an action); stop.


We used it in the Navy quite a bit "Belay that order".

So, his sentence could have read:

"You'd think so, but there are massive threads all over the place that might put a stop to that".

;)

Sorry, back to the actual topic.

Actually, I know the difference between belay and belie. I just was typing quickly and mistyped/used the word. In fact, in the context I used, it should have been belie. I wasn't saying "to stop," rather, I was saying that the posts were disproving the "switches work" statement.

Besides, this is the interweb! I thought grammer/spelling had no part of it!

LOL- L8tr dOOd!

[samsurd2]

I thought grammer/spelling had no part of it!Guess not. :D

[pmbtv]

it's now april 2008 can anyone tell me where i might buy, or at least order, a sherwood newcastle 772, 872 or 972. i cant seem to find one anywhere online. seems like S-N has been putting off release dates for more than a year. thanks.

[krholmberg]

They are only sold through ADs. You won't find them online. The 972 is supposed to be released in about 2 months. I'm not sure about the release of the 872, but post # 1099 suggest the 772 will be released imminently.

[krholmberg]

Have you checked www.sherwoodusa.com for your nearest dealer? Even if you don't purchase from them, you might as well call. Worse comes to worse, you might get the "scoop" :D. If so, be sure to pass it on ;).

[birdliver]

I visited the S/N site a couple of weeks ago and since their locator found no dealers in my state (RI), I called Axiom Audio to inquire about the debut of the R-972. I spoke to a guy who was nice enough and said his best information was May or June. While he didn't sound prepared to bet his house on it, he did offer to take my name and number and said he would call me when they were ready to take orders. It didn't sound like he was working from a formal list, more like he jotted down my info and probably would give me a call when they were available. I expect that news of the release will get to this site more directly through other sources, but obviously, I'll pass along anything that I hear from Axiom.-bird

[Stereojeff]

Hi:

I'm in Seoul now and can report the following: R-772's have been available for several months. R-872 is scheduled for producion at the end of this month. R-972 is now scheduled for the end of June.

Also, there will be a demo of the R-972 with the Trinnov Optimizer embedded in the AVR at the High End Show in Munich. The show starts April 24.

Jeff

[krholmberg]

Hi:

I'm in Seoul now and can report the following: R-772's have been available for several months. R-872 is scheduled for producion at the end of this month. R-972 is now scheduled for the end of June.

Also, there will be a demo of the R-972 with the Trinnov Optimizer embedded in the AVR at the High End Show in Munich. The show starts April 24.

Jeff

The idea that a R-972 with an embedded Trinnov Optimizer will be publicly shown next week is exciting and shows progress. The idea that it's release is pushed back to late June isn't so exciting. Is that when manufacturing will begin... or is that when the first shipments will be sent out to dealers... or is that when dealers should actually have them in their showrooms?

[krholmberg]

Jeff...

Will a demo of the R-972 be done in Munich? If so, hopefully mid/fi speakers (say 7.1 speaker systems that go for $5,000 or less) will be used and it will be done in a more or less typical home environtment.

[facke02]

Jeff,

Is there any info that you can share on the pre/pro that's coming this fall?

[noah katz]

Jeff,

"Also, there will be a demo of the R-972 with the Trinnov Optimizer embedded in the AVR"

Is this a test mule with pro Trinnov inside, or a real R-972 with a production-spec Trinnov implementation?

[Stereojeff]

Noah:

Every demo we have conducted has used the Sherwood DSP code and not the Trinnov professional code. The show in Munich will be our public debut with the code fully inside the R-972.

Jeff

[noah katz]

"Every demo we have conducted has used the Sherwood DSP code and not the Trinnov professional code."

Yes, you've said so before, but does that take the hardware out of the equation?

Perhaps Trinnov is different, but I know that the filter resolution available from Audyssey software (2EQ, MultEQ, etc) depends on the DSP resources available on the platform, and I'd think the R-972 has much less than the Trinnov pro unit.

[shanksworthy]

"Every demo we have conducted has used the Sherwood DSP code and not the Trinnov professional code."

Yes, you've said so before, but does that take the hardware out of the equation?

Perhaps Trinnov is different, but I know that the filter resolution available from Audyssey software (2EQ, MultEQ, etc) depends on the DSP resources available on the platform, and I'd think the R-972 has much less than the Trinnov pro unit.

But didn't Jeff just say that this demo would be fully integrated into the 972 at this demo engagement?

[noah katz]

"But didn't Jeff just say that this demo would be fully integrated into the 972 at this demo engagement?"

The only word I see that's common to what he just said and what you just said is "the".

[krholmberg]

Hi:
...there will be a demo of the R-972 with the Trinnov Optimizer embedded in the AVR at the High End Show in Munich...
Jeff

Noah...

I interpret the above quote as saying a pre-production unit without a separate, piggy backed Trinnov Optimizer will be demoed at the event. Having said that, I share your concern over the likelihood that the processing power of the AVR will be substantially less than that in the stand alone unit. Hopefully the show will shed some light.

Edit: Maybe I should have said the processing power allocated to the Trinnov Optimizer within the AVR will likely be substantially less than the processing power within the stand alone unit. Time will tell if that makes a difference.... and hopefully the event next week will shed light on whether there is a difference or not. Hopefully an independant person can comprare the R-972 with an embedded Trinnov Optimizer versus a R-972 with an outbard stand alone unit using the R-972's algorithm. It's not hard to immagine people being very happy with an unknowingly underperforming embedded processor if they haven't heard the effects of the stand alone unit (even though it uses the same algorithm). Hopefully the Trinnov Optimizer won't have the same problems Audyssey had. I expect to be very pleased, but you just don't know until it's released.

[QZ1]

I'm in Seoul now and can report the following: R-772's have been available for several months. R-872 is scheduled for producion at the end of this month. R-972 is now scheduled for the end of June.
The idea that a R-972 with an embedded Trinnov Optimizer will be publicly shown next week is exciting and shows progress. The idea that it's release is pushed back to late June isn't so exciting. Is that when manufacturing will begin... or is that when the first shipments will be sent out to dealers... or is that when dealers should actually have them in their showrooms?
In the context of the paragraph, it is implied that it will start production then; but it isn't stated, so we don't know.

However, if one has waited this long, it probably doesn't matter at this point.

[krholmberg]

... [h]owever, if one has waited this long, it probably doesn't matter at this point....
Ain't that the truth.

[Robert Whitehead]

Stereophile (May '08) on Sherwood Trinnov. Used prototype of R-972; not outboard unit.

5.1 system w/fronts too close; surrounds too far apart; ctr on carpeted floor. Sounded awful.

With Trinnov, "the soundfield blossomed, and most amazingly, the voice from the ctr spk no longer rose from below, but seemed to come directly from the screen."

Had listener turn sideways, switched in another correction, "Amazingly, the SN created a convincing soundfield correctly oriented to my new posture."

"This seem like a system w/potential."

[videohot]

Any news on the pre/pro version?

Larry

[jotronic]

While it won't be the same as the pro version it is obvious they are trying to get as much out of it as they can...

"We demonstrated the codes that will be resident in the R-972. We did not demo the professional codes. Both rely on a combination of FIR and IIR filters and have the same number of FIR taps. I am not authorized ato give complete details on the number of IIR filters, but it is not 7 versus 30. The actual difference is much smaller.

The other difference between the Sherwood code set and the pro version is the amount of boost available. To insure that our home unit does not run out of headroom, boost is limited to 6 dB. The professional version does not have this limitation."

And I think that if they were going to debut the 972 in Munich withOUT Trinnov being "integrated" (see integrated "formed into a whole or introduced into another entity") then Jeff would not have used the word "integrated".

[Stereojeff]

I don't know how to further clarify the Trinnov demos and the power of this technology.

I have demoed the technology at CES, at EHX, at the End Result Dealer Show in Pittsburgh, for Davis Distributing in Wheeling, WV, at the DCC Supply open house in Atlanta, at the CBI dealer show in Illinois. Every one of these demonstrations has used the Sherwood DSP code. Next week our sales manager for Europe will demonstrate the R-972 with the identical Sherwood/Trinnov code embedded completely in the R-972.

I believe two AVS Forum members have written about their Trinnov demonstration. Regarding the impact of the technology, both wrote that they "experienced" the demo. The didn't just listen to it. I promise their jaws dropped.

Although the guys at Trinnov tell me the code is only slightly simplified from their pro code, I will argue that is irrelevant.

Trinnov, as used in the R-972, measures speaker distance to the closest centimeter. Azimuth and elevation are accurate to plus or minus 1 degree. With both EQ and 3D remapping engaged, our version of Trinnov offers system performance improvement that, IMO, rivals the improvement Dolby Digital made over Dolby Pro Logic.

Jeff

[noah katz]

"Jeff would not have used the word "integrated"."

He didn't.

Jeff,

"I don't know how to further clarify the Trinnov demos and the power of this technology."

That's not the question.

The question is if buyers of the R-972 will get the same *hardware* that's been demo'd.

Will we?

If not, Trinnov in production R-972's may or may not perform as well as in the demo's.

[Stereojeff]

Noah:

Stop it! R-972 users will get exactly the performance we have demonstrated.

Jeff

[jotronic]

"He didn't."

You know what? You're right, my bad. He said "inside" which is even better.

[shanksworthy]

"But didn't Jeff just say that this demo would be fully integrated into the 972 at this demo engagement?"

The only word I see that's common to what he just said and what you just said is "the".

Er... I don't follow. He's saying that the non-pro Trinnov code will be inside the box for the upcoming demo. He's also said that the non-pro version is the version that will be in the final product. So how is what I said, any different than what he said? And furthermore, why won't you give Jeff the benefit of the doubt? Seems as though he's been quite generous answering your many questions -- not sure what more he can do to put your mind at ease.

[9suffix]

-- not sure what more he can do to put your mind at ease.

Agreed, Shanksworthy.

All along I thought calling the Trinnov Pro nothing more than a "code bucket" meant it was merely holding the receiver code until they could stick it on a smaller chip. Then, I understood it to be "embedded" and "fully inside" the AVR. :D

Anyway, the nuances of these technical questions are usually beyond me. :eek:

As long as it sounds awesome at the end of the day...

JP

[noah katz]

Jeff,

"R-972 users will get exactly the performance we have demonstrated."

Thanks, that's all I wanted to know.

Sorry for being paranoid.

[broke_ht_nut]

Jeff,

The brochure you sent out shows no dolby volume and support for a single subwoofer but I have seen posts from you and other Sherwood literature that says that Dolby Volume will be supported on release and also seen other releases intimating that Sherwood will be releasing a system including speakers which was 7.2, which means it would have two subwoofer outlets under trinnov control.

Could you confirm the Dolby Volume support and whether there will be support for 2 subs under Trinnov ontrol.

If you have anything to add on a likely release date for the prePro I would also be interested in knowing.

Thanks
Broke

[Robert Whitehead]

Or the likely availability to consumers date for the R-972.

[yngdiego]

Jeff,

Could you confirm the Dolby Volume support and whether there will be support for 2 subs under Trinnov ontrol.




I'd also like to know if Trinnov has a feature equivalent to Audyssey DynamicEQ which is featured on the Denon xx08 models. This is different from, and complimentary to, Dolby Volume.

[Stereojeff]

Broke:

While I did write that we expected to demo a pre-pro at CEDIA with Dolby Volume, we never planned to have Dolby Volume in the R-972 and have never stated that we would.

Regarding the use of dual subwoofers, although the R-972 supports only 7.1, I have been using dual subs during my demos arrayed per the research of Todd Welti at Harman. Although the subs are run in parallel, Trinnov does equalize the acoustic sum of their outputs and I have been able to achieve plus or minus 1 dB response at the listening position.

Jeff

[Stereojeff]

yngdiego:

Trinnov does not offer an equivalent to Audyssey's Dynamic EQ. Trinnov is engaged in ongoing product development but I cannot comment on any future offerings.

Jeff

[9suffix]

Jeff, thank you for your continued support of this discussion! I have learned a great deal. I have decided to wait for the pre/pro (having just purchased my first amp.).

Are there any other bones you can throw us regarding your planned demo of the pre/pro at CEDIA?

Should someone start an anticipation thread for the pre/pro? Keep it here for now?

JP

[krholmberg]

Broke:

Regarding the use of dual subwoofers, although the R-972 supports only 7.1, I have been using dual subs during my demos arrayed per the research of Todd Welti at Harman. Although the subs are run in parallel, Trinnov does equalize the acoustic sum of their outputs and I have been able to achieve plus or minus 1 dB response at the listening position.

Jeff


:D:D:D:D

How does the Trinnov Optimizer / R-972 account for the difference in time delay/phase between the seated position and the two subs. Realistically, if the two subs are centered left to right on the front and rear wall, the rear sub will be much closer to the seated position than the front sub (since most people sit towards the rear of the room). I ask this because if I remember correctly, the to subs are subs are supposed to be completely out of phase.

edit: I realize the easiest thing is to add an external passive phase adjustor to one sub to alter it's phase relative to the other. I'm just curious as to whether you tried anything else.

[yngdiego]

yngdiego:

Trinnov does not offer an equivalent to Audyssey's Dynamic EQ. Trinnov is engaged in ongoing product development but I cannot comment on any future offerings.

Jeff

Thanks! I hope they come out with an equivalent or even better DynamicEQ feature that could be in a future firmware update for the 972 and pre/pro.

[Desmo888]

[QUOTE=krholmberg;13674314]I realize the easiest thing is to add an external passive phase adjustor to one sub to alter it's phase relative to the other. /QUOTE]



Why?

[krholmberg]

My understanding (and I could be wrong), is that the subs are supposed to be perfectly out of phase. In order to do that, you could swap polarity to reverse phase, but you'd still need to account for the distance between them. That's where the individual phase adjustment comes into play. It's been a while since I read the white paper... maybe I need to revisit it.

[noah katz]

"I realize the easiest thing is to add an external passive phase adjustor to one sub to alter it's phase relative to the other. "

Not so w/o serious performance degradation.

"the subs are supposed to be perfectly out of phase"

That's backwards; they would cancel each other's output.

[broke_ht_nut]

Thanks! I hope they come out with an equivalent or even better DynamicEQ feature that could be in a future firmware update for the 972 and pre/pro.

It is likely to require significantly more horsepower so I would not count on it being upgradable at all. In fact I would say the chances are slim to none of it being upgradable. That is why I was asking about Dolby Volume. While jeff says it will be implemented in other receivers it seems that he has now ruled it out of their flagship product. Basically this means that when it does eventually get announced you will need to buy a new receiver or pre pro.

So if you need this functionality now you are mostly stuck with Denon who do the Auddessy with Dynamic Eq.

[krholmberg]

"I realize the easiest thing is to add an external passive phase adjustor to one sub to alter it's phase relative to the other. "

Not so w/o serious performance degradation.

"the subs are supposed to be perfectly out of phase"

That's backwards; they would cancel each other's output.

Thanks Noah... looks like I need to revist the Harman white paper ;). It's been a while.

[noah katz]

Ah, the white paper; maybe you were thinking of the opposite mid-wall sub placement that makes the odd-order modal reflections from each sub out of phase and thus cancel.

[yngdiego]

It is likely to require significantly more horsepower so I would not count on it being upgradable at all. ...So if you need this functionality now you are mostly stuck with Denon who do the Auddessy with Dynamic Eq.

I'm not sure why DynamicEQ would require more horsepower. From my understanding, DynamicEQ only adjusts the relative EQ when you change the master volume level and as you approach reference level the EQ flattens out. Maybe it does adjust the EQ on-the-fly when program content levels change, but that's not how I understand the technology.

In fact, when the user changes the master volume level I think it would only be a few quick changes to the EQ to boost/trim frequencies according to its algorithm. Then no more EQ changes are required until the user changes the master volume again.

[broke_ht_nut]

I'm not sure why DynamicEQ would require more horsepower. From my understanding, DynamicEQ only adjusts the relative EQ when you change the master volume level and as you approach reference level the EQ flattens out. Maybe it does adjust the EQ on-the-fly when program content levels change, but that's not how I understand the technology.

According to the Auddessy website it is dynamic/realtime and it would have to be as it is all relative to what is actually being played at any given instant.

http://www.audyssey.com/technology/dynamicEQ.html

[yngdiego]

According to the Auddessy website it is dynamic/realtime and it would have to be as it is all relative to what is actually being played at any given instant.

http://www.audyssey.com/technology/dynamicEQ.html

Well hopefully Sherwood has oversized the DSP enough to allow for future upgrades that require more processor resources. Since the 972 won't have Dolby Volume and Trinnov doesn't have any DynamicEQ type product (yet), then I'll probably be passing on Sherwood for now until they catch up with other products on the market.

[peeweep69]

Well hopefully Sherwood has oversized the DSP enough to allow for future upgrades that require more processor resources. Since the 972 won't have Dolby Volume and Trinnov doesn't have any DynamicEQ type product (yet), then I'll probably be passing on Sherwood for now until they catch up with other products on the market.

I'm sure that will be out in the next iteration :rolleyes:, due out in 10/2009 :rolleyes: :rolleyes:.

[yngdiego]

I'm sure that will be out in the next iteration :rolleyes:, due out in 10/2009 :rolleyes: :rolleyes:.

Which is delayed until 12/2011....

[tempus06]

That's way too easy dude... :p

[stardustcowboy]

hi there!

i had the trinnov optimizer set up in my home theatre for testing...it was just the 2 channel version but it blew me away....the results of the processing were absolutely amazing...but because of the high price point of the standalone unit with 8 channel processing i had to pass on it :(


but with the arrival of the sherwood i see a chance of updating my HT with new the new technology...as other posters said before, i'm also a fan of pre-pros, so i'm with facke02:

Jeff,

Is there any info that you can share on the pre/pro that's coming this fall?

is there a processor with trinnov processing in development and is there a planned release date for it (in europe) ?

[facke02]

hi there!

i had the trinnov optimizer set up in my home theatre for testing...it was just the 2 channel version but it blew me away....the results of the processing were absolutely amazing...but because of the high price point of the standalone unit with 8 channel processing i had to pass on it :(


but with the arrival of the sherwood i see a chance of updating my HT with new the new technology...as other posters said before, i'm also a fan of pre-pros, so i'm with facke02:



is there a processor with trinnov processing in development and is there a planned release date for it (in europe) ?
Welcome to the waiting room...

I was lucky enough to attend the R-972/Trinnov demo in Orlando in March. You're right, it is amazing technology. The last we heard on the Pre/Pro was they were going to be demoing it at CEDIA in September. No release date has been announced yet.

[cybrsage]

Welcome to the waiting room...

I was lucky enough to attend the R-972/Trinnov demo in Orlando in March. You're right, it is amazing technology. The last we heard on the Pre/Pro was they were going to be demoing it at CEDIA in September. No release date has been announced yet.

Is there a release date for the R-972? By release date, I mean a date where it will be available for purchase, not a date where it will be given a new date.

[facke02]

Is there a release date for the R-972? By release date, I mean a date where it will be available for purchase, not a date where it will be given a new date.
Your guess is as good as any... Per Jeff - "R-772's have been available for several months. R-872 is scheduled for producion at the end of this month. R-972 is now scheduled for the end of June.". It wouldn't surprise me if it changed again.

[Robert Whitehead]

Remember...production date of last week of May for the R-972 (when they begin the factory run in Korea) has nothing to do with the date the R-972 is available to purchase.

[rolandtk]

I'm betting the production date has something to do with when its available... ;)

[kokishin]

Can you describe experience in some detail?

hi there!

i had the trinnov optimizer set up in my home theatre for testing...it was just the 2 channel version but it blew me away....the results of the processing were absolutely amazing...but because of the high price point of the standalone unit with 8 channel processing i had to pass on it :(


but with the arrival of the sherwood i see a chance of updating my HT with new the new technology...as other posters said before, i'm also a fan of pre-pros, so i'm with facke02:



is there a processor with trinnov processing in development and is there a planned release date for it (in europe) ?

[kokishin]

Can you describe experience in some detail?
stardustcowboy ?

[cybrsage]

Your guess is as good as any... Per Jeff - "R-772's have been available for several months. R-872 is scheduled for producion at the end of this month. R-972 is now scheduled for the end of June.". It wouldn't surprise me if it changed again.

Wasn't it due in May of 2007?

[facke02]

Wasn't it due in May of 2007?
Yes it was, but the last we heard from Jeff was end of June. I quoted exactly what Jeff said...

[QZ1]

Remember...production date of last week of May for the R-972 (when they begin the factory run in Korea) has nothing to do with the date the R-972 is available to purchase.
That would be June. :(

[stardustcowboy]

well, my room has problems with room modes, specially low frequencies...and once we installed the 2 channel trinnov the sound was much smoother, clearer and sounded more natural. it is hard to describe. but it sounded natural. too bad we just had the 2 channel version as i was hoping to hear move soundtracks played back through the trinnov processing. somebody mentioned the ability of the trinnov machine to re-locate the speakers...my center speaker is under the screen, it would have been interessting to hear the trinnov re-locating the position of the center, unfortunately we couldnt try that...
so all in all the benefits were amazing, as was the price...so i held back and waited for a consumer product to come out. i'm a fan of pre-pros so i will wait for a processor to come out featuring the trinnov optimizer...

if anybody has questions concerning the benefits of the optimizer, feel free to ask. i had the unit installed last summer, so i hope i can still remember details you might want to hear about ;)

[fyzziks]

My understanding (and I could be wrong), is that the subs are supposed to be perfectly out of phase. In order to do that, you could swap polarity to reverse phase, but you'd still need to account for the distance between them. That's where the individual phase adjustment comes into play. It's been a while since I read the white paper... maybe I need to revisit it.
No, all the subs in the Welti paper are fed the same signal, so all are in phase. You cannot have all the signals from any pair of subs to have the same phase relationship unless the distances to each are identical, which is not the case. If the distances are different, some frequencies will be in phase, some out of phase, and others in-between. Welti definitely looks at a whole set of listening positions, not all in the center, because the whole point of the paper is that the room response variation over the whole listening area is reduced by using multiple subs at certain locations, and the surprising part of the result is that it doesn't take 10 subs, but only 2, to get a significant reduction in variation.

[krholmberg]

Yup. I emailed Todd and that's essentially what he said. My concern and other peoples concern is whether the out of phase nature of the second sub has a drawback acoustically. Todd's questions were academic... not acoustic in nature.

[fyzziks]

Yup. I emailed Todd and that's essentially what he said. My concern and other peoples concern is whether the out of phase nature of the second sub has a drawback acoustically. Todd's questions were academic... not acoustic in nature.
I'm not sure what you meant by that last comment - the reductions in room response variation from seat to seat are real enough when you add a second sub, so that's an acoustic result which is not just academic. He's got verification measurements in his paper, remember, not just simulations.

[krholmberg]

Sorry... you're right. Proper testing was done. What I meant is out of phase speakers might not sound as good despite the in room response looking better and measuring better. That I guess is the in between ear stuff that is hard to quantitate.

[Robert Whitehead]

Let's all pray the R-972 doesn't have problems like the new NAD rec'rs and pre-pro.

[shanksworthy]

Let's all pray the R-972 doesn't have problems like the new NAD rec'rs and pre-pro.

Why would it? Do they share any part models in common?

[aydu]

Why would it? Do they share any part models in common?

They may share some internal components but they are not clones or otherwise related. Note that the "DTS bomb" was shared between Yamaha and Onkyo brands due to their using the same chips in their designs.

What they do share is that they come from smaller manufacturers and have highly complex circuitry. Even the big manufacturers are having problems getting HDMI and the advanced surround circuits working consistently and the smaller manufacturers lilely have smaller engineering staffs to get this right.

[krholmberg]

Maybe that's the reason for the delay. Who knows. I read somewhere on the net that the delay is d/t HDMI chipset shortages. I find that hard to beleive since there seems to be no shortage of HDMI equiped electronics hitting the market. June is just around the corner. Hopefully people will have these in their homes in 2 months. It'll be nice when the speculation ends and end user reports start coming in :D.

[noah katz]

"What I meant is out of phase speakers might not sound as good despite the in room response looking better and measuring better. "

Exactly what do you mean by "out of phase speakers"?

[fresno1232001]

For Jeff- I know I pulled for the 972 to be offered in black, but will it also be offered in the silver-ish color all your receivers, pre-pros and amps have been offered in up to now?

Maybe that's the reason for the delay. Who knows. I read somewhere on the net that the delay is d/t HDMI chipset shortages. I find that hard to beleive since there seems to be no shortage of HDMI equiped electronics hitting the market. June is just around the corner. Hopefully people will have these in their homes in 2 months. It'll be nice when the speculation ends and end user reports start coming in :D.

[yngdiego]

They may share some internal components but they are not clones or otherwise related. Note that the "DTS bomb" was shared between Yamaha and Onkyo brands due to their using the same chips in their designs.

What they do share is that they come from smaller manufacturers and have highly complex circuitry. Even the big manufacturers are having problems getting HDMI and the advanced surround circuits working consistently and the smaller manufacturers lilely have smaller engineering staffs to get this right.

Onkyo, which is a very large manufacturer, has had endless bugs and issues with the x05 models. As Adyu said, a company with smaller engineering resources is more likely have have less time to test and find bugs. Jeff did say they were monitoring the Onkyo issues, so hopefully we won't see a repeat of the Reon problems.

My major concern isn't how many bugs are in the product when it first ships (every product has bugs), but how quickly they release firmware updates and making sure those updates don't create further problems.

If there are major bugs and their firmware turnaround time is on the order of 2-3 weeks after confirmation, then I would call that very good in my book. If on the other hand we have to wait months for fixes, I would be looking elsewhere.

[rolyasm]

So the 972 has the impressive Trinnov Optimizer system. Is that what the Onkyo's Audessey is using also? Or are there any other models using the Trinnov?

[krholmberg]

Exactly what do you mean by "out of phase speakers"?
Some speaker manufacturers highly tout the "proper" integration of different drivers in the right time domain to recreate music. Vandersteen immediately come to mind. On two other subwoofer forums I frequent, several posters advocate not having subs at multiple locations because the out of phase nature of the different subs creates difficulties in mating the subs to the mains. I suspect they are concerned about the interaction of harmonics, but I really don't know enough to say any more. Most of naysayers are hardcore two channel guys so they by nature are probably more critical listeners. They are also probably more concerned with a flat response only at the main seated position. I personally think centered subs front and back are probably ideal. Consistent response for a large area that is amenable to equalization for fine tuning with a minimal decrease in low bass output... perfect for a home theater :D.

[noah katz]

"several posters advocate not having subs at multiple locations because the out of phase nature of the different subs creates difficulties in mating the subs to the mains."

OK I understand what you mean now.

The above is a generalization which ought not apply within a reasonably sized listening area.

In fact the same argument can be made with even more merit for the satellite speakers, whose higher operating freq mean a greater phase difference for the same change in listening position.

[Southern Spy]

Or are there any other models using the Trinnov?

The 972 will be the first AVR to include Trinnov

[SYLEX]

Is the R-972 will have an option for passive sub, as my P-965 ?

Is there a project of a P-972 ?

[krholmberg]

In fact the same argument can be made with even more merit for the satellite speakers, whose higher operating freq mean a greater phase difference for the same change in listening position.
Agreed :D. I think a crossover to the subs at 60 is nice.

[fresno1232001]

I noticed yesterday on www.axiomaudio.com that they are showing the R-772 as being for sale now for $800 and they show the R-872 for $1199.95 and say "coming to market July, 2008". Those were not on there a couple months ago. Click around in there and you will find the detailed spec sheets on both receivers. The 872 weighs 34 lbs, we learn. It is 1.3 HDMI, decodes Dolby True HD and DTS-MA. In truth, I'd probably be very happy with it. But, with the new flagship maybe 5 or 6 mos. away I will wait and probably buy it. I have read for days recently about 3 other big name receivers and they are just full of bugs. I won't name names, but the biggies. You can read it all yourselves.

I think Jeff said on here that 772 and 872 had entered production a couple of months ago. Today is Tuesday, May 13, 2008. If they began production in say March, 2008 on the R-872 and it will be coming to market in July, and if, as Jeff says, production will begin on the 972 in late June, 2008, then it may appear for sale in say, October, 2008. I'm just extrapolating with the dates. Figure 4 months between the time production begins and the time you can order one. Just a rough estimate on my part. Of course, fate could take a hand and delay it further, but my guess now is October for the 972 to be purchasable on the Axiom website.

I found a review of the R-965, the current flagship, dated Dec. 2004 on ultimateavreview. They really loved it and said it came out earlier in 2004. If ~Oct. 2004, then that would mean 4 years between the introduction of new flagships for Sherwood-Newcastle.

HKs current flagship, the AVR-745 came out ~June, 2006 and the replacement will come out late summer, 2008, HK tells me. So a little more than 2 years between flagships for HK.

If the S-N flagship is done right, not full of bugs, not a mess, then I will be happy with an Oct. 2008 sale date. S-N really does get great reviews. You pay more, but isn't that what you would expect with higher grade components? Do you want to "save" $400 and get a living nightmare of a receiver? I know I don't.

A question for Jeff: Will the 972 be available in the traditional silver color, or whatever that color is, as well as black? I might prefer the silver after all. The reviewer of the R-965, above, commented on the rich, expensive look of the unit he had in the silver color.

The 972 will be the first AVR to include Trinnov

[yngdiego]

I
If the S-N flagship is done right, not full of bugs, not a mess, then I will be happy with an Oct. 2008 sale date.

And that would probably put the pre/pro into 2009...which is fine..my Denon 3808 is holding up just fine and I can wait 9-12 months to upgrade. Hopefully by then S/N will have Dolby Volume and DynamicEQ-like features in the pre/pro and some of the kinks worked out via the 972.

[krholmberg]

Yikes:eek:. I hope you're wrong on those dates. But, if they get rid of most of the bugs, I agree, it'll be worth every penny as well as every day gone by.

[facke02]

The 872 was scheduled for production the end of April. The 972 is scheduled for production the end of June.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=13643391&postcount=1107

Jeff, is this still true?

[9suffix]

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=13643391&postcount=1107

Speaking of that entry, Ken, it reminds me that the model with fully-embedded code was going to be on display in Munich late April.

Any news from that event?

JP

[DonoMan]

Okay guys. I hate to break it to you, but there are no such receivers. This was all a big joke.

[krholmberg]

:rolleyes:

[facke02]

Speaking of that entry, Ken, it reminds me that the model with fully-embedded code was going to be on display in Munich late April.

Any news from that event?

JP

You're right JP, there was a show in Munich that was to have the fully embedded chip and code. We need an update...

[cybrsage]

Okay guys. I hate to break it to you, but there are no such receivers. This was all a big joke.

At this point, I think it will ship with a copy of Duke Nukem Forever and a Phantom Console.