Not really. I've owned both, and consider Sherwood Newcastle to be at least comparable to (and sometimes better than) Pioneer Elite. Apparently you've fallen into the too-common trap of allowing a single bad experience with a brand to color your perceptions of all products from that brand.

sorry, 52" BRAVIA XBR series LCD Flat Panel HDTV KDL-52XBR5 is what i have. and it was working fine on 1080p60 (60Hz) input signal before the r-872 . fromt the datasheet of Faroudja's 2301 DCDi i found this:

"The FLI2300 Digital Video Format Converter produces the highest quality upconverted
video output from a variety of interlaced video inputs including 525i/50 (NTSC),
625i/50 (PAL or SECAM), 480p/60, 720p/60, 1080i/60 (ATSC) and RGB graphics up
to SXGA"

so no support of 1080p60.

please help, thanks again


Sorry for the bad news, but if you look carefully in the manual it specifically says that the R-872 cannot handle 1080P input. One of the reasons why I decided against it and went for the Denon 1909 instead.

Sorry for the bad news, but if you look carefully in the manual it specifically says that the R-872 cannot handle 1080P input. One of the reasons why I decided against it and went for the Denon 1909 instead.

i understand now how Faroudja's FLI2301 is configured in my R-872 .
but i need to know how to passthrough the video signal to the HDMI output. i mean disabling the "video scaling" feature in my case.
isn't there a way to program it to do so?

i found that Denon 1909 is using another chip "the Faroudja's FLI2310"
and they feature "1080p video pass through" under the specification.

but its definetly not the only difference. in the datasheet of FLI2310 http://www.gnss.com/products/FLI2310%20Product%20Brief.pdf
input support is said to be upto 1080i. like of FLI2301 http://www.genesis-microchip.com/products/FLI2301_Product_Brief_C0702-PBR-02.pdf

i cannot tell if denon arranged the passthrough function in inside or outside the faroudja's chip.

i have tried to contact Faroudja on techsupport@faroudja.com
Unfortunately, i have recieved following message from the server:

#####################################

Your message To: Collin Chan Subject: Regarding Faroudja DCDi Sent: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 02:00:49 -0700 did not reach the following recipient(s): Collin Chan on Fri, 3 Oct 2008 02:00:49 -0700 The e-mail account does not exist at the organization this messagewas sent to. Check the e-mail address, or contact the recipientdirectly to find out the correct address. <SJEX2003CL2.gmi.domain #5.1.1>

######################################

looks like they have added FLI2301 to their discontinued product list. while Faroudja is not giving support!
i will e-mail genesis-microchip and wait for a replay.

Do we now have an expected release date of March, 2010?

i have tried to contact Faroudja on techsupport@faroudja.com
Unfortunately, i have recieved following message from the server:

#####################################

Your message To: Collin Chan Subject: Regarding Faroudja DCDi Sent: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 02:00:49 -0700 did not reach the following recipient(s): Collin Chan on Fri, 3 Oct 2008 02:00:49 -0700 The e-mail account does not exist at the organization this messagewas sent to. Check the e-mail address, or contact the recipientdirectly to find out the correct address. <SJEX2003CL2.gmi.domain #5.1.1>

######################################

looks like they have added FLI2301 to their discontinued product list. while Faroudja is not giving support!
i will e-mail genesis-microchip and wait for a replay.
Gensis was sold to ST, but they are probably still providing support under Genesis. However, I'll bet that they won't be able to help too much, as the answer comes not from something having to do with the chip, but rather from the design used to implement it in a product such as an AV Receiver.

The R-972 does support 1080p bypass.

Jeff

Jeff , there must be a way to enable pass-thru in my R-872. i am very annoyed as my problem is not yet resolved.

it should be the user who to decide whether to use a feature like video scaling or simply disabling it( act as a switch )

i don't want to loose the quality of my 1080p60Hz signal because my brand new AVR does not support it.

i need your support

thanks.

Do we now have an expected release date of March, 2010?Only if you're an optimist. :D

Jeff , there must be a way to enable pass-thru in my R-872. i am very annoyed as my problem is not yet resolved.



Based on my reading of the manual and trying the R-872 in a shop, there is no way to pass a 1080p signal. This was also stated to be the case in a recent Hong Kong AV magazine review of the R-872.

Based on my reading of the manual and trying the R-872 in a shop, there is no way to pass a 1080p signal. This was also stated to be the case in a recent Hong Kong AV magazine review of the R-872.

this is so "UN complete" design for sherwood. the pass through function is what a 100$ AVR can do!

Anyone going to Audioholics SOTU event? Audyssey and Sherwood would be in separate room to demo their product. This would be the best place hear these products.

Anyone going to Audioholics SOTU event? Audyssey and Sherwood would be in separate room to demo their product. This would be the best place hear these products.I'm going. :)

The rooms are almost identical to boot, though I cant speak for any treatments, if any, that will be placed within. And of course the speakers will be a major factor. We hear Audyssey is using SVS speakers and Sherwood is using Hsu speakers. Should be cool to hear.

So then it seems they will be using direct competitors for speakers (and thus reasonably similar quality). Of course it's not the same as having everything identical and just swapping out the receivers, but at least one is not using uber high end speakers while the other is not. Short of a formal comparison, I think this is about as good a comparison as we're going to get. Hopefully several people who post here will attend and get a good listen to both setups. Hopefully that will help gain a concensus.

For those going, I have two specific requests:

1. Please see how large the sweet spot is for both systems. I would expect it to be larger for Audyssey, but all I need is for Trinnov's is to cover a 3 person wide couch when speakers are located in "ideal" places. Contrarily, if the speakers are in non-ideal locations, then I would expect Trinnov to shine.

2. How good is the bass management? I've read on numerous occasions that Audyssey sets the bass as flat. Although "ideal", most (including me) prefer a house curve since our ability to hear diminishes as the frequency diminishes. Sherwood is supposed to allow you to set different curves including one that makes the lower frequencies play a few dB's "hot". Please try the different curves to see if you notice an audible difference. This could be a real selling point. I love the fact that the 972 has user adjustible low and high pass filters for the sub. This in conjunction with user adjustible curves should be a way for the 972 to shine, but as they say the proof is in the pudding.

I can't wait to hear back from those who attend!

Anyone going to Audioholics SOTU event? Audyssey and Sherwood would be in separate room to demo their product. This would be the best place hear these products.

Is this event open to the general public? I live in Orlando and got to see Jeff and the R-972 at EHX in March.

Is this event open to the general public? I live in Orlando and got to see Jeff and the R-972 at EHX in March.

Yes it is FREE to the public to attend our demos and educational seminars.

But if you want to participate in our semi formal dining event / costume party, you must register. Until the end of this week, we are waiving the $75 registration fee for all Sherwood dealers/installers and enthusiasts which includes 2 days of breafast and our dining event ($250 value in food per person)!

Here is the announcement:
http://www.audioholics.com/news/trade-show-coverage/sherwood

I contacted Outlaw and found out that the Model 997 will not have a HD AM/FM tuner. I assume, then, that the 972 will not have an HD tuner either (and will not support Sirius). I had hoped not to have to buy a separate tuner to get HD.

Yes it is FREE to the public to attend our demos and educational seminars.

But if you want to participate in our semi formal dining event / costume party, you must register. Until the end of this week, we are waiving the $75 registration fee for all Sherwood dealers/installers and enthusiasts which includes 2 days of breafast and our dining event ($250 value in food per person)!

Here is the announcement:
http://www.audioholics.com/news/trade-show-coverage/sherwood

Great... I'll register today.

Thanks

Hi Everyone,

I've seen the question asked before in this thread but I couldn't find any answers to it....

I am looking at the Sherwood Newcastle R-872 and I will be using a projector for my display (InFocus IN83). I was told that the scalers in good projectors are better than those in receivers, and that I should be using the scaler in the projector. How do you know that the projector is doing the scaling and not the receiver? I read about these "passthroughs" but so far nobody has commented on whether you can do this with the R-872 or not. It would be a deal breaker I think.

Thanks in advance.

What are the specs on this model? The Inkel site says this is 27 kg - is it that heavy? What about the amps and the dacs?

Trying to decide if I wait or go for the ICE power Pioneers.

Hi Everyone,

I've seen the question asked before in this thread but I couldn't find any answers to it....

I am looking at the Sherwood Newcastle R-872 and I will be using a projector for my display (InFocus IN83). I was told that the scalers in good projectors are better than those in receivers, and that I should be using the scaler in the projector. How do you know that the projector is doing the scaling and not the receiver? I read about these "passthroughs" but so far nobody has commented on whether you can do this with the R-872 or not. It would be a deal breaker I think.

Thanks in advance.


the r-872 does not support the PASSTHROUGH

I will be using a projector for my display (InFocus IN83). I was told that the scalers in good projectors are better than those in receivers

You may have been told that about good projectors, but you have an IN83. It has a Pixelworks processor. Enough said.

You may have been told that about good projectors, but you have an IN83. It has a Pixelworks processor. Enough said.

The IN83 isn't a good projector? Every single thing I've read so far suggests its one of the best in the under $10,000 category. Any particular reasons why you don't think its any good? I don't have it yet, it is one we are interested in. I am certainly not an expert so all I have to go on is what I've read, and I keep reading reading that the IN83 has an exceptional scaler in it for its price range...here is something HDTV expert said:

"The Realta discs revealed that the IN83’s Pixelworks 10-bit DNX video processor was pulling its weight. It sailed through the standard-definition tests, picking up extremely quickly on 3:2 and other oddball frame/field sequences while leaving minimal interlaced scan line artifacts on the screen. The high-definition tests showed that full-frame 1080i processing was being performed, with no twitter in the video resolution and film resolution loss tests — just smooth 1080p."

I've read similar comments in other reviews. I'm not at all expecting it to be as good as a $20,000 projector or a dedicated video processor, simply better than a $1400 receiver (R-872).

If what z117 is true and the R-872 won't support pass through, that is likely a deal breaker for this particular receiver - thanks for the input guys, everything helps (good and bad comments) as we are still trying to decide exactly what we want. The 972 supports pass through though, right? Also, what is meant by the fact that the 872 cannot handle a 1080P input? I am very curious about this because I watched a blu-ray movie and it was hooked up to the 872.


Thanks again

Jeff,

Can Trinnov as implemented in the Sherwood Newcastle R-972
Remap a Home Theater 7.1 Front Height configuration
for DTS-HD and Dolby True soundtracks
that are mixed for the 7.1 Standard configuration?

7.1 Front Height Configurtion
http://www.dts.com/~/media/0BD0C95682144F1E8DDD72255DAED31B.ashx

7.1 Standard Configuration
http://www.dts.com/~/media/CFD1137CD6174A3F959CF16C5DB3F924.ashx

"The FLI2300 Digital Video Format Converter produces the highest quality upconverted
video output from a variety of interlaced video inputs including 525i/50 (NTSC),
625i/50 (PAL or SECAM), 480p/60, 720p/60, 1080i/60 (ATSC) and RGB graphics up
to SXGA"

so no support of 1080p60.



The way I read this, is that it takes any signal EXCEPT 1080P, and scales it up to 1080P.

And this is what their website says:

"the R-872 uses a Genesis Faroudja processor IC and can deinterlace and scale any of its video inputs, analog or digital, to 720p, 1080i or even 1080p and output them over HDMI."

Am I missing something here?

I REALLY want this receiver so I hope I am right. I can't believe they would make a receiver that wouldn't accept a 1080P signal, or one that when given a 1080P signal, downgrades it. Although you can't bypass the scaler, what happens when it gets a 1080P signal then? It can't scale 1080P to anything better so wouldn't it just pass through?

Thanks.

hi mark , i have returned the sherwood r-872 back to the supplier.i believe that this is a huge bug in the design. Moreover, i didn't recieve any answer from their customer support neither from Genesis regarding my problem. the seller suggested me to go for marantz . they have better AVR's and most importantly, the passthrough function which is well taken care of.

hi mark , i have returned the sherwood r-872 back to the supplier.i believe that this is a huge bug in the design. Moreover, i didn't recieve any answer from their customer support neither from Genesis regarding my problem. the seller suggested me to go for marantz . they have better AVR's and most importantly, the passthrough function which is well taken care of.

I understand it doesn't have passthrough, but what I haven't been able to fully understand is: what does it do with a 1080P signal? Does it actually downgrade it? I find that hard to believe. My thinking was that it passes through a 1080P signal untouched because it can't make it any better. Were your experiences different?

The thing is that I don't mind that it does the scaling as long as it's decent scaling, I just got hung up on the possibility that it can't accept a 1080P signal and the more I think about it I can't see how it wouldn't be able to take one.

It's too bad the Sherwood 972 isn't out right now. Marantz also seemed to be our second choice, but unfortunately Marantz AVR's will only scale to 480P. On the other hand, the projector we're looking at has a scaler in it so maybe we will just get that to do the work.

Anyways thanks for your input, I hope you find an AVR you are happy with :), I'm beginning to get very frustrated myself. Nobody seems to be able to make a receiver with the audio quality capabilities of the Sherwood (apparently) for even close to the price, but on the video side of things it seems like it might be handicapped. I really like Anthem stuff, but I can't afford it.

Passthrough does not process the signal at all. It passes it along unmodified in case you have a processor that does not suck as much as the Faroudja solution.

Passthrough does not process the signal at all. It passes it along unmodified in case you have a processor that does not suck as much as the Faroudja solution.

Ok I understand that much, but what happens when the 872, even with a crappy scaler, receives a 1080P/60 signal? (I think this is what comes off a blu-ray) If it can't scale or process it because it is already the best possible signal, what does the 872 do with it?

Thanks.

It processes it, which is a problem if you have a better video processor, either standalone or integrated into your display, because the Faroudja in the 872 will molest it, and you would have to get an HDMI splitter to run audio into the 872 and then run video around it.

Let's face it - Faroudja is long in the tooth, and full of issues.

I certainly hope this isn't the case...I got my 872 through a supplier buddy of mine at cost. I can't return it.

I don't have a 1080P source yet, but a Bluray player is not too far in the future.

I just can't see them not allowing a full 1080P signal to pass through. It makes absolutely zero sense to downscale the best signal.

Time will tell I suppose.

It processes it, which is a problem if you have a better video processor, either standalone or integrated into your display, because the Faroudja in the 872 will molest it, and you would have to get an HDMI splitter to run audio into the 872 and then run video around it.

Let's face it - Faroudja is long in the tooth, and full of issues.

So what is it attempting to do to the 1080P signal if it is already at the highest possible resolution? By processing the 1080P signal, what is the Faroudja processor trying to do? I agree with stikle in that its hard to believe they would make a product that downgrades a 1080P signal when it is given one, although I don't know enough about the product to know if this actually happens or not. I have heard that the processor in the 872 is discontinued already.

I'm still confused, but thanks for the replies - I'm slowly learning. I might just go with something like a marantz 7002 or Denon 3808 and just pass the video through to the Projector to take care of the scaling.

It does other processing like noise reduction and can do CUE reduction and stuff like that. Many receivers have some of these options set always on, not configurable.

If I am missing something allready discussed or confirmed please excuse my ignorance.

- Hoping this AVR can pass 1080P over HDMI with the R972 unit powered off.

This is important for people like me who want to watch Cable or Satellite Broadcast without using the AVR.

Broadcast receivers typically only have 1 HDMI output.
Personally I do not want to power on and use my AVR each and every time I watch cable TV and using the analog for the AVR hookup would be the only choice.

- Is the 24 Bit DAC for all channels?

For people that have a DVD-A or SACD player that does not have a 24 Bit DAC for all channels this would be welcomed. Just look at Denon where if you want DAC for all channels you have to minimally start at the 4308. As far as DAC the Denon 3808 only has DAC for stereo. I am sorry Denon but regardless of Audessy upgrades that 3808 just lacks it in teh Audio Fidelity for All Channels.

- Trinnov Remapping

This is what seems to separate this AVR from all the other players.
??? stil unanswered can it go as far as Remapping a 7.1 Front Height Configuration for 7.1 Lossless Audio Mixed for teh 7.1 Standard.

Why would you have video passing through but not using audio?

Hoping this AVR can pass 1080P over HDMI with the R972 unit powered off.

This is important for people like me who want to watch Cable or Satellite Broadcast without using the AVR.

Broadcast receivers typically only have 1 HDMI output.
Personally I do not want to power on and use my AVR each and every time I watch cable TV and using the analog for the AVR hookup would be the only choice.
I don't see how this could even be possible: there are four inputs, and thus no way for it to know which one to "pass through" without being on and having the input selected.

I have recommended for many years now that folks who want to retain the ability to watch TV in a home theater without turning the home theater system on be ready to accept some hassles to achieve that. Your modern home theater receiver is a hub and focal point for everything - as such, bypassing it for anything becomes tricky unless you bypass it exclusively (such as a camcorder hooked to the front inputs of a TV or a TV's onboard tuner). If you want to watch cable or satellite TV without a surround receiver being on, I would expect you to need to run separate cables to the TV. Be warned, though, that the cable boxes I've used disable component output when HDMI is connected to something - the component would potentially work when the receiver is off, as the HDMI output wouldn't see an active device downstream, but I've never tried it to know for certain.

It does other processing like noise reduction and can do CUE reduction and stuff like that. Many receivers have some of these options set always on, not configurable.

Thank you - this is the information I was looking for exactly.

As much as I want a Sherwood product, unless the 972 comes out sometime soon, it looks like it will be Denon or Marantz for me so I can pass the video straight through.

Thanks again.

I don't see how this could even be possible: there are four inputs, and thus no way for it to know which one to "pass through" without being on and having the input selected.....



Reportedly the Panasonic SA-BX500 can pass 1080P Audio and Video without the unit being on. This could be that the Panasonic SA-BX500 is a Class D AMP where it may have some standby mode that unit is always on to some degree using some low level power consumption but I just can't see consuming all that power of an AVR when you just want to watch Jeapordy.

Basically I just want to use an AVR or Pre/Pro for Full Length films and HD Audio but do I really need to consume all that AVR power when my daughter wants to watch Dora The Explorer.

Does Swiper the Fox really need to consume more power. I say no.
If eh current AVR cannot do it I am hoping the Outlaw Pre/Prowill have two HDMI outputs so this would resolve allthat uinessary power consumption when a broadcast only need the TV speakers.

Presently in my 2 channel environment I use a analog amp for powered home theater 2 channel and run direct HDMI for my cable box for as high as 1080i stream but with an AVR that has Reon f and when I want to run the AVR I want to upconvert t o1080P.

Trendmonger:

The 7.1 situation is interesting. Trinnov would correctly find all 7 speakers including the height speakers. As 7.1 is not yet an official format there are no international placement standards to guide the Optimizer nor do we currently have code that could re-map them. Were this my system, I'd let Trinnov find all the speakers and then re-map in 2D. Height would not change, but the acoustic image for the main 5.1 system would be moved laterally (horizontally) to support ITU Surround or SMPTE Cinema. Response for the height speakers would be flattened to match the other channels, but their acoustic image would stay put.

Jeff

Regarding 1080p and our new receivers. Both these projects (R-872 and R-972) were started before the world became 1080p mad. 1080i was the preferred source. For the R-872 we thought there were performance advantages to be gained by deinterlacing 1080i with our built-in Faroudja DCDi chip. I still do.

For the R-972, the HQV Reon solution automatically supports 1080p bypass so it is not an issue.

Jeff

P. S. There is a school of thought that all video should bypass the AVR and go directly to the display device. This is an option with the R-872.

Regarding 1080p and our new receivers. Both these projects (R-872 and R-972) were started before the world became 1080p mad. 1080i was the preferred source. For the R-872 we thought there were performance advantages to be gained by deinterlacing 1080i with our built-in Faroudja DCDi chip. I still do.

For the R-972, the HQV Reon solution automatically supports 1080p bypass so it is not an issue.

Jeff

P. S. There is a school of thought that all video should bypass the AVR and go directly to the display device. This is an option with the R-872.

Has this this school of thought have consideration for lossless 7.1 Audio which I believe must transmit to the AVR via HDMI. Today this will be the typical Blue Ray Hookup but some content providers are starting with 1080P transmissions.

Reportedly the Panasonic SA-BX500 can pass 1080P Audio and Video without the unit being on. This could be that the Panasonic SA-BX500 is a Class D AMP where it may have some standby mode that unit is always on to some degree using some low level power consumption but I just can't see consuming all that power of an AVR when you just want to watch Jeapordy.
If the BX500 allows HDMI signals to pass through even when in standby, then it must be related solely to a single HDMI input with a sort of "sleep mode" switching control - after all, you can't have all four HDMI inputs trying to push through to the HDMI output simultaneously. It is in implementing that "traffic cop" sort of signal switching control that I find problematic. It might be possible to designate "HDMI1" as the source that bypasses to the output when in standby, but how easy that is to do may depend heavily on the hardware architecture - if there's not a simple physical pathway between the two (which becomes rather unlikely when you incorporate video processing into the platform), a bypass like this could quickly become a huge headache for a feature that may see very little actual use.
Basically I just want to use an AVR or Pre/Pro for Full Length films and HD Audio but do I really need to consume all that AVR power when my daughter wants to watch Dora The Explorer.

Does Swiper the Fox really need to consume more power. I say no.
If eh current AVR cannot do it I am hoping the Outlaw Pre/Prowill have two HDMI outputs so this would resolve allthat uinessary power consumption when a broadcast only need the TV speakers.
Swiper (and more often Pablo and the rest of the Backyardigans) runs through the full home theater in my den, as does the news and even the weather channel from time to time. The power consumption for my system at low volume is not that large (just a few amps according to my Belkin power conditioner, and a significant chunk of that is going to the TV). The control challenges (particularly for the family) that arise when trying to let the system flip-flop between system speakers and TV speakers are pretty messy, and I just can't justify the hassle. I couldn't justify it to myself even back when video switching wasn't so integrated into AVR's, and it was easier to pull off then.

The Outlaw Model 997 has been reported to have a single HDMI output, but even if it had two I don't see how it would help with the issue at hand. You still need the processor on to have video switching active. You could potentially play some games with amp triggers and use the processor as an HDMI switch, I suppose, but the feasibility of that will depend on how the trigger controls work...
Presently in my 2 channel environment I use a analog amp for powered home theater 2 channel and run direct HDMI for my cable box for as high as 1080i stream but with an AVR that has Reon f and when I want to run the AVR I want to upconvert t o1080P.
How about this: run HDMI to your TV and run coaxial, optical, or analog to your receiver. You'll need two HDMI inputs on the TV (since there will need to be one connected to the AVR), but there's no audio available from cable that needs HDMI. You'll lose the benefit of Reon scaling, so you'll be relying on the cable box or TV scaler still - and the cable box scalers I've seen are pretty underwhelming - but Swiper won't care, right?

Honestly, I prefer the option of component video and analog audio connections from the cable box to the TV and a separate HDMI run to the receiver over this scheme, but either is possible.
P. S. There is a school of thought that all video should bypass the AVR and go directly to the display device. This is an option with the R-872.
Bypassing the AVR with video has long been popular in some circles, but one of the curious side-effects of HDMI's audio/video merger is that it actually makes this approach more difficult, particularly for those formats which seek to make use of HDMI's audio bandwidth (DVD-Audio, SACD, Blu-ray, and HD-DVD being the four that come to mind). Feeding 1080p from a Blu-ray disc straight to a display while also feeding TrueHD, multichannel PCM, or DTS-HD to a receiver in the digital domain is tricky at best (if not downright impossible) when the video bypasses the receiver. You would basically need two HDMI outputs on the player, and that's not something I've seen on sources so far.

Trendmonger:

The 7.1 situation is interesting. Trinnov would correctly find all 7 speakers including the height speakers. As 7.1 is not yet an official format there are no international placement standards to guide the Optimizer nor do we currently have code that could re-map them. Were this my system, I'd let Trinnov find all the speakers and then re-map in 2D. Height would not change, but the acoustic image for the main 5.1 system would be moved laterally (horizontally) to support ITU Surround or SMPTE Cinema. Response for the height speakers would be flattened to match the other channels, but their acoustic image would stay put.

Jeff

This sounds promising and I expect Trinnov will yield superior results than the latest Audessy with my 7.1 Front Height Configuration.

Room depth is 18'
Stereo L/R 6' Separation.Omnipolar.
CC 7' Omnipolar inveted
Front Height L/R 7' Height 9 'Separation. Omnipolar inverted .
Surround L/R 14' deep 7 ' height. Omnipolar inverted .

If Trinnov can image Front Height to the back 18' that would be amazing.

BTW is dac 24 bit for all channels

THX

. . . Feeding 1080p from a Blu-ray disc straight to a display while also feeding TrueHD, multichannel PCM, or DTS-HD to a receiver in the digital domain is tricky at best (if not downright impossible) when the video bypasses the receiver. You would basically need two HDMI outputs on the player, and that's not something I've seen on sources so far.

One solution to this is the DVDO Edge (see the Video Processors section here). In addition to regular HDMI output, the EDGE had an HDMI jack that just outputs the audio portion of the signal piggybacked on a blank 720p video signal.

Basically I just want to use an AVR or Pre/Pro for Full Length films and HD Audio but do I really need to consume all that AVR power when my daughter wants to watch Dora The Explorer.

Does Swiper the Fox really need to consume more power. I say no.
If eh current AVR cannot do it I am hoping the Outlaw Pre/Prowill have two HDMI outputs so this would resolve allthat uinessary power consumption when a broadcast only need the TV speakers.

My receiver, amp, crossover, equalizer, cable box, video processor use about 0.8 amps total when on but not actually doing signal processing. Using the receiver adds little inefficiency overall and hardly consumes more power unless you actually have it cranked up.

P. S. There is a school of thought that all video should bypass the AVR and go directly to the display device. This is an option with the R-872.
Wouldn't that negate HDMI switching then? Or am I not understanding what you're saying?

One of the reasons I liked this AVR was that I wouldn't have to mess with inputs on the TV anymore. One cable, one input, done.

Of course, bypassing the AVR for all video means no upscaling of SD broadcasts...of which there are still plenty.

Wouldn't that negate HDMI switching then? Or am I not understanding what you're saying?

Yes, it would. That school in general is wrong, but may be right with the 872 where you don't have a "don't molest my video" mode.

Are there any FINAL official specs on R-972? I do see the receiver on the Singapore Sherwood site but not on the US site.

nakenergy:

Drop my a line and I'll send the final R-972 brochure.

jeff@sherwoodamerica.com

Thanks for the brochure Jeff. Any ETA on availability?

thanks for the brochure jeff...

+1

Thanks Jeff! Any closer to a final word on pricing or an ETA?

which websites are covering the Audioholics STOU 2008?
I want to check what they say about this AVR, the Audioholics website doesn't seem to have news at the moment.

Thanks

Jeff,

" For the R-872 we thought there were performance advantages to be gained by deinterlacing 1080i with our built-in Faroudja DCDi chip. I still do."

What are these performance advantages?


"P. S. There is a school of thought that all video should bypass the AVR and go directly to the display device. This is an option with the R-872."

Are you referring to bypassing the use of HDMI on the AVR and plugging directly into the TV? That is NOT why I ordered this unit.

I'm very disappointed in SN because of the limited video options. I ordered my 872 in January and was one of the first to receive a unit in North America and posted most likely the first user review on the web (search my username). My review had the first mention of the lack of video pass-through.

Since I received my unit I have not yet purchased a Blue Ray drive so the latest information regarding 1080P input only adds to my disappointment above and beyond not being able to pass video through unmolested. My SD channels are not displayed correctly in that the image is shifted slightly to the left thus cutting off about half an inch of the image. HD TV is perfectly fine and the sound quality matches if not exceeds my older SN 863.

I am thoroughly disappointed to know that my brand new unit has a discontinued video chip right out of the gate. I originally ordered this unit for the 4 HDMI inputs, the SN sound that I have come to enjoy and the idea that this would be my last AVR for several years. My plan has unfortunately been shredded.

Therefore, sound quality aside, I cannot recommend SN to anyone based on these "oversights" by the company. One can get an AVR for half the price that has more user options. If you are considering the 972 then do yourself a favor and do not become an early adopter. Let someone else find out that the product is not what they expect then wait for SN to upgrade to internals that are actually current generation.

You have been warned.

I too was alarmed to see use of this now old and very tired Faroudja DCDi chip been used by Sherwood in their 872. I quickly removed this from my list although thankfully, see that the 972 has the Reon chip, from one extreme to the other. My last concern here(972) is what dac chips are they planning to use, no mention anywhere, time to start worrying again.

Just posted:

http://www.audioholics.com/news/industry-news/sherwood-r-972-trinnov-eq

fteixeira

Just posted:

http://www.audioholics.com/news/industry-news/sherwood-r-972-trinnov-eq

fteixeira

I don't care if the Trinnov washes the windows. If that thing doesn't have TWO HDMI outputs, put me down for "pass."

Not exactly a "glowing" review....

QUOTE: For many advanced Home Theater connoisseurs Trinnov Optimization is likely not much more than an audio-gimmick. But for HT-newbies it’s a great way to jump into a competent surround setup.

Oh well.....

Tim,
Way to leave out the sentence prior...

QUOTE: The room EQ effect was suitably impressive. As we switched from a standard setting to fully processed, the Trinnov processing suddenly made dialogue more articulate and bumped up the fine acoustic effects that are easy to miss in any soundtrack. The results of the room EQ process were remarkable. END QUOTE

Although you may characterize this as a ho-hum review I would not. This is a very brief report based on room acoustics that were far from ideal. I would be very interested hearing for myself what Trinnov can do in a much better room. I currently use Sherwood SNAP and would not consider myself a newbie to HT sound. This review reaks of bias and a total lack of knowledge regarding the Trinnov optimization technology as it pertains to the $13K system as well as Sherwoods implementation of it.

Audioholics automatically disregards the technology due to the fact that the R-972 does not have a list price in the $20K range. If it did they would be falling all over themselves describing how 3-dimensional the sound is and how this system completely trumps any other attempt at room EQ and summing up by saying something like "Finally a room EQ system that every true home theater audiofile should have."

Seems like I remember similar articles regarding Pro-Logic surround decoders when they first came on the market being pissed on by every so-called "golden eared" a$$ monkey hired to write a review.

Sorry for the rant. Back to the regularly scheduled disenchantment with Sherwoods release schedule.

JD

JD, I took the review as "mediocre" at best. I was expecting much more, especially after Chuck Back, Gary Reber, etc. gave very favorable first impressions of the Trinnov. I just had my hopes up too high I guess.:confused:

Agree with JD. The review also lists the HSU HB-1 speakers; clicking on the HB-1 link in the article takes you to a review of those speakers in April 2007 while Hsu has the new MK2 version selling for long on their web site which is deemed to be far better that the reviewed ones.

No speaker that size can fill a large room well (at least not by our standards) down to 80Hz, no matter who designs them. Bad choice on SN's part.

Bump.

No speaker that size can fill a large room well (at least not by our standards) down to 80Hz, no matter who designs them. Bad choice on SN's part.

My concern would be: WHY did SN use the ultra efficient Hsu speakers? (BTW the Hsu's have a really great sound when used properly) For a "flagship" AV in this price range one would like to get the feeling that the 972 can drive most any kind of speaker, and SN should like to 'prove' it. At his CES demos Dr. Hsu drives these speakers with a 75 watt bottom line Pioneer receiver using 'zip' cord for speaker cable--and they still sound impressive. (having his full array of subs didnt hurt either)

SN needs to demonstrate what this puppy can do with a FULL set of quality speakers (86-89db efficient) that one who is looking to spend $1200-1500 (street price) on a quality AVR might have. Otherwise, someone might think SN is trying to hide something. JMO

Classico

SN needs to demonstrate what this puppy can do with a FULL set of quality speakers (86-89db efficient) that one who is looking to spend $1200-1500 (street price) on a quality AVR might have. Otherwise, someone might think SN is trying to hide something. JMO

Classico

Given their spec sheets do not, at my last reading, give full bandwidth all-channels-driven specs for 5.1/7.1, I tend to agree that they may be hiding a potentially weak amp.

Although I realize under normal listening conditions all channels will not be driven full bandwidth, it does provide a way to compare various amps. Providing a single number, at say 10KHz, doesn't give me much confidence in the amp section.

I don't care if the Trinnov washes the windows. If that thing doesn't have TWO HDMI outputs, put me down for "pass."

If it washes windows, just buy a HDMI splitter or such. It would be a good investment. :)

If it washes windows, just buy a HDMI splitter or such. It would be a good investment. :)

Right, except it would have to be an HDMI splitter that actually WORKED.

Right, except it would have to be an HDMI splitter that actually WORKED.

Yeah, I thought that was understood. Buying something which does not work is not a good solution. :)

Any news on release date?

^^In ~2 months, it will be 2 FREAKIN' YEARS since the R-972 was intro'd at CES 2007.

^^In ~2 months, it will be 2 FREAKIN' YEARS since the R-972 was intro'd at CES 2007.

Wow. SN must have some serious money to burn, spending that much time (or longer) on a development cycle of a 'flagship' product.

Remember how earlier this year everybody was hopeful when it was estimated that the R-972 would be released in late July or early August? That seems so long ago now...

Any news on release date?

"Coming Soon to a retailer near you"

"Soon" is defined in the Sherwood-Newcastle dictionary as: "2 years, give or take"

:eek:

My biggest concern is that all the time it has taken has pushed them into the realm of being obsolete already.

Trinnov seems to be such a great and wonderful thing. But since the rest of the receiver is mostly made up of two year old technology, is it enough?

I want this receiver to succeed so that others pick up the technology as well. Better for everyone that way!

Hell, still no accurate release date ?!

Thankfully I bought a R965 to wait and I don't regret it.

I just got an email from my local SN retailer. He says, and I quote, "Just heard back from the distributor .... Jan 2009 at the earliest."

I just got an email from my local SN retailer. He says, and I quote, "Just heard back from the distributor .... Jan 2009 at the earliest."


I'm shocked! Pay close attention to "at the earliest".

I'm shocked! Pay close attention to "at the earliest".

At this rate the entire AVR will be so outdated when its released they will have to scrap it and start all over with a new model.

Although many manufacturers are on what I would call their 2nd generation HDMI 1.3 compatible receivers I would disagree that this receiver would be obsolete next year. If it offers HDMI 1.3 compatibility along with video processing and audio processing of the current formats it could hardly be considered outdated. The integration of Trinnov is a step ahead of the competition in the processing arena.

The mistake that Sherwood is guilty of is announcing a product and then deciding to make significant changes to the feature set without communicating this to it's customer base. I personally do not think this was a bad decision just as long as they deliver a product that provides a significant price/performance advantage over the currently shipping competitors product. I am still very happy with the performance of my P965. It took a couple years to determine that it was the proper solution for my needs and I can do without beta testing all of the current generation receivers and pre-pros. They are all far from perfect and would not be what I would call long term solutions for my theater.

JD

Other than the Faroudja/Reon thing, its specs seem to have gone DOWN (# HDMI, etc)

I'm shocked! Pay close attention to "at the earliest".

While many turned their heads long ago two years was the magical break point.
In this time the Onkyo 876 which not only deals well with low impedance
full range front speakers requirements
but the latest Audyssey, HQV, THX,neural and HD Radio was well worth my testing it out.

There is no need to flood this topic with my analytical perception of this AVR but minimally
while I do enjoy many of the Onkyo 876 features, be it direct audio, processed audio
or processed video I do very much look forward to getting a Sherwood or Outlaw with Trinnov at a future date.

600 fishnagels below R972 list had me pull the trigger on the 876.

The r-972 has been added on the sherwood page (http://www.sherwoodusa.com/prod_r972.html) and the german sherwood page (http://www.sherwood.de/products/r_972.php). The thing that suprises me the most is the weight (27 kg. net)!! That looks like they implemented about the same power as the a-965 in a normal reciever (as they used the 965 serie sound as reference for this receiver). Really interested now if they can put it out any soon, as they got real competition from pioneer, harman kardon (the 755 will come out beginning of 2009) and even the new Arcam avr600.

I don't know what Pioneer you're thinking about but the 755 is not even close. Outdated Faroudja crap and HK's POS EZ-Set crap? No thanks. Only thing HK has going for it is Logic 7.

I don't know what Pioneer you're thinking about but the 755 is not even close. Outdated Faroudja crap and HK's POS EZ-Set crap? No thanks. Only thing HK has going for it is Logic 7.

The SC-07 is getting rave reviews over here in Europe... HK needs to sort out it's QC before i would ever buy one... and yes EZ is crap too, but i like the way they sound.

I just got an email from my local SN retailer. He says, and I quote, "Just heard back from the distributor .... Jan 2009 at the earliest."


Don't worry SN fanboys. it should be here before 2010... built on an '06 chassis of course !

At this rate the entire AVR will be so outdated when its released they will have to scrap it and start all over with a new model.


Yeah, I've rapidly lost excitement about this product. To hear that even the Outlaw pre/pro won't go beyond 4 HDMI inputs was a major bummer as well. They may as well just forget about this one and come up with a successor.

I can understand everyone's frustation. I waited from January to Sept. just to get my R-872 and let me tell you, that was several months of wasted anticipation. I just sent the unit back and picked up the Yammie RX-V1900. Soooo much nicer unit and the best thing is, everything works as advertised! One thing I like about it are all the preset sound parameters that Yamaha is known for. They work great for my Xvid movie collection and have improved the sound greatly.

I hope though that the 972 comes out soon for all of you still waiting but if my 872 is anything to judge it by the tech, aside from the Trinnov, will be discontinued before it even hits the showrooms.

In what ways will this amp be outdated, i haven't seen any "arguments" pointing that way, only vague assumptions about might have been skipped on or left out.

In what ways will this amp be outdated, i haven't seen any "arguments" pointing that way, only vague assumptions about might have been skipped on or left out.

They're just saying that because of the age. It's true for the R872. We'll see for the 972. But the 972 should be safe.

Keep in mind that when the 872 and 972 were announced (January 2007) they already had the designs finalized or very close to it.

These are the issues that caused me to return this unit:

On the SN website they say that they 872 upscales to 1080p. Fine, but what they don't say is that the 872 does not accept a 1080p signal. When I asked Jeff about this he told me that the video capabilities were in line with the standard of the time. In other words, 1080p was not prevalent as a resolution that could be handled by the top AVRs of the time. Translation, I bought an AVR in September 2008 that was in line with the latest technology in late 2006/ early 2007.

There is no option of turning the scaling OFF so ALL signals regardless of the source are scaled in some way. I have an HDMI DVD player (no HD yet) and an HDMI PVR. Because the DVD player, the AVR AND the TV do some sort of upscaling there would ultimately be confusion in the line and my picture would black out and would not come back but the sound would still play. I had to set scaling to 480i on the receiver in order to watch a simple DVD with no issues. You can set the resolution for each input which is good but for my PVR input I set the resolution to 720p because that was the highest I could get away with and still be able to watch HD channels as well.

Any SD signals were displayed off center so the left edge of my picture was cut off.

HDMI drop out was horrendous. This was not only when switching channels (SD or HD) but also when listening to CD tracks. A new track would start and the first three seconds would be cut off due to handshaking issues.

If any of you are seriously considering the 872, move on to something else. If you are seriously considering the 972 then by only after you have read reviews that specifically discuss the video capabilities of the unit or even better wait till you can play with one yourself. If the 872 is any indication then the 972 is also designed based on the best of early 2007. I recommend you find out just what model of Reon chip is being used for the scaling abilities as well as whether or not you have the option of passthrough. And I hope it does not have the same delay when switching between sound tracks on CD's or DVD's like I had.

Still nothing official on release? I'm looking forward to the Outlaw version but that's not gonna happen till this gets released.

It is December...anything new?

Info from the other SN 972 thread:

Hello all! I emailed Jeff outside of this forum and he did reply saying that they have confidence that the technical challenges have been resolved and that the unit would be generally available at the end of January 2009.

These are the issues that caused me to return this unit:

On the SN website they say that they 872 upscales to 1080p. Fine, but what they don't say is that the 872 does not accept a 1080p signal...

There is no option of turning the scaling OFF so ALL signals regardless of the source are scaled in some way.

Any SD signals were displayed off center so the left edge of my picture was cut off.

HDMI drop out was horrendous. This was not only when switching channels (SD or HD) but also when listening to CD tracks. A new track would start and the first three seconds would be cut off due to handshaking issues.

jotronic,

You seem to have the same priorities as me w/regard to video capabilities of an AVR. Have you seen any recently that meet the above needs (or those coming out in the near future)? I used to care more about audio for my AVRs, but with different resolutions, aspect ratios, and digital/analog video being very prominent now, the scaling is becoming most important. Yet, I can't bring myself to get an external scaler for $1K+.

No news is good news?

No news seems to be the usual news.

No news is good news?

Definitely not when it comes to this product.

Sherwood's product web page is up, but hidden from the receiver list - lots of typos and metric units, so it probably being edited.
http://sherwoodusa.com/prod_r972_feature.html
dont see DSD..

Outlaw announced today that their pre-amp version of the SN 972 will be available in late 1Q 2009. The specifically said this was because the SN receivers would be manufactured for SN first and then their pre-amp version would be made.

Looking more and more like it will be reality.

It's a shame that it's seemingly come to this. 2 years since the original announcement and nothing to show for it. I'm not sure how big Sherwood is, but unless I'm mistaken, they are the contract manufacturers for Denon and Marantz? I hope so. I don't know how they'd make it on their own as a boutique manufacturer, particularly in this economic climate.

At this point, the jury is out on this "Trinnov process." Maybe it was too expensive to license, maybe it was not exactly as advertised. Other than that, what did/does this unit have to offer?

I usd to own a P-965. It was decent. I thought the interface and remote commands (not the physical remote, but the commands loaded on it) were horrid. Even after I paid for the upgrade, the auto sensor never worked right.

I compare it to the Denon 3808Ci I currently own, and I find tha tI vastly prefer the Denon. Ease of use, ok the remote stinks to high heaven, sound quality, and video switching. Only mistake I made was not going to the 4308Ci, because it has dual HDMI outputs.

I had a 965 and couldn't get rid of it fast enough, it was one of the worst user interfaces I've ever encountered. Cheap construction masked by a semi attractive front panel. Two channel performance sucked, although it did sound pretty decent with movies. I dumped it and bought a McCormack stereo pre with HT bypass and couldn't be happier.

I compare it to the Denon 3808Ci I currently own, and I find tha tI vastly prefer the Denon. Ease of use, ok the remote stinks to high heaven, sound quality, and video switching. Only mistake I made was not going to the 4308Ci, because it has dual HDMI outputs.

For me, the perfect receiver would be a Denon 3808CI with Trinnov, ASSUMING Trinnov is a large improvement over Audyssey, Dynamic EQ and Dynamic volume. If Trinnov flops or only on par with Audyssey MultiEQ, then I see no reason to go with Sherwood.

Unfortunately it will be a few more months before people can determine if Trinnov really is that good, or just all hype. I'm hoping Sherwood doesn't have an exclusive arrangement with Trinnov so other manufacturers can use the technology, IF it lives up to its hype.

I had a 965 and couldn't get rid of it fast enough, it was one of the worst user interfaces I've ever encountered. Cheap construction masked by a semi attractive front panel. Two channel performance sucked, although it did sound pretty decent with movies. I dumped it and bought a McCormack stereo pre with HT bypass and couldn't be happier.

I am glad you are happy but why would anyone purchase a P965 for 2-channel audio? This pre-pro is not just decent for HT it was and still offers excellent performance for it's price tag and feature set. I paid $750 for mine 2 years ago. Which pre-pro on the market, at that time, offered better sound for less $$? Anyone that steered you in that direction for 2-channel audio was wrong in doing so.

Slick user interfaces are nice but once I have any unit installed and configured I never see the interface again. The remote handles all of the adjustments for me. If you are reading this thread in hope that the R-972 will be a top performer for multi-channel as well as 2-channel I would not hold my breath. I have yet to hear a pre-pro or AVR for under $2K that is a serious 2-channel rig.

Regards,
JD

Take your snobbery (and incorrect snobbery at that) back to the section of the forum for it.

Take your snobbery (and incorrect snobbery at that) back to the section of the forum for it.

There is a section for snobbery? Who exactly were you replying to anyway? Everyone interested in the Sherwood or one person in particular. The quote command is useful!

I'm real confused on the P965 2 channel bashing going on here. It was actually a pretty good rig for that. I'd guess it was some other part of the sound chain that was the problem. A bad amp, bad CD player, or bad speakers. They may not be "bad," but they're most likely bad with the Newcastle gear. There is such a thing as SYNERGY with audio gear. Some amps and speakers don't sound good together.

As for the R872 and its issues:

UNFORGIVABLE. The fact that it doesn't accept a 1080p signal is totally unacceptable. This unit could easily have been altered for that at limited cost.

In fact it's basically false advertising when it claims to be a 1080p capable receiver. Sherwood would be SMART to recall the item and replace them with true 1080p. They specifically need to start advertising that they are the only HDMI 1.3 receiver on the market that can't take 1080p signals (at least that I'm aware of).

I've always been a huge fan of Jeff. This really is totally unacceptable. The argument that it's not a massive bug is laughable. That is exactly what it is a huge bug that never should have gone past beta stage.

The argument that tech wasn't there is also again laughable. Nextgen DVD was already in full swing. The idea to be able to decode the nextgen codecs was always there, so the idea to display the discs images had to have been there as well.

This is one of those problems that Sherwood should be jumping to fix and not make excuses for.

Not looking to bash here but I got tired of the wait.

I gave up and bought a Denon.

Late Q1 of 2009?

I am still hopeful it is a great product. If they delay it enough, I might be back in the market for a new receiver. ;)

Where did you hear late 1Q 2009? Outlaw announced a few days ago that their cousin, the 997, would be released in 1Q. The S/N R-972 is going to be released before the 997, so early 1Q still makes sense for the R-972. The last report for a release date of the R-972 was late January. It was hearsay, but there has been no denial of that date.

Where did you hear late 1Q 2009? Outlaw announced a few days ago that their cousin, the 997, would be released in 1Q. The S/N R-972 is going to be released before the 997, so early 1Q still makes sense for the R-972. The last report for a release date of the R-972 was late January. It was hearsay, but there has been no denial of that date.

Ah, I misread the post from near the top of this page. My bad.

Are you sure they said 2009 and not 2109? ;)

miltimj,

Sorry so long to respond. I haven't been on the forums for a while.

When I expressed my disappointment with the 872 to my dealer he was really surprised about the unit's deficiencies but was very quick in accepting it back. The sound was great which was a plus but when it was all said and done the shortcomings I listed were just too much to deal with. So, before I boxed it up I did a couple of weeks of research and chose the Yammy RX-V1900. The SINGLE biggest option I was looking for was pass-through for all video signals because I decided that I did not want any interference with the video. I bought a Panasonic BD-35 Blue Ray player and now all is right with the world.

tsd2005,

"This is one of those problems that Sherwood should be jumping to fix and not make excuses for."

I agree but I figure SN is too busy trying to get the 972 working well enough to get out the door to worry about their non-flagship units. I'm surprised it even made it out of the factory door myself. For me, I'll never buy another SN product, Trinnov or no. If I ever get a unit with Trinnov it will be an Outlaw or some other product if they ever license it out. For now I'm happy with my Yammy and will forever have the memory of this bad experience with Sherwood/Newcastle.

http://www.timessquarenyc.org/nye/images/historyBall.jpg

miltimj,

Sorry so long to respond. I haven't been on the forums for a while.

When I expressed my disappointment with the 872 to my dealer he was really surprised about the unit's deficiencies but was very quick in accepting it back. The sound was great which was a plus but when it was all said and done the shortcomings I listed were just too much to deal with. So, before I boxed it up I did a couple of weeks of research and chose the Yammy RX-V1900. The SINGLE biggest option I was looking for was pass-through for all video signals because I decided that I did not want any interference with the video. I bought a Panasonic BD-35 Blue Ray player and now all is right with the world.

tsd2005,

"This is one of those problems that Sherwood should be jumping to fix and not make excuses for."

I agree but I figure SN is too busy trying to get the 972 working well enough to get out the door to worry about their non-flagship units. I'm surprised it even made it out of the factory door myself. For me, I'll never buy another SN product, Trinnov or no. If I ever get a unit with Trinnov it will be an Outlaw or some other product if they ever license it out. For now I'm happy with my Yammy and will forever have the memory of this bad experience with Sherwood/Newcastle.

If I'm not mistaken the Outlaw 997 will be manufactured by SN. My P965 had decent sound but was quirky, I won't buy another SN product again either, the support was just not there..

WOW! this thread was started in Jan 07 and these units were supposed to be out in August 07. It's almost a year and a half past their release date and they still aren't out? I got tied of waiting in December 07. Glad I didn't wait any longer. Sherwood's P-965 is a great pre-amp but out dated and they still haven't come out with these yet? I really liked Sherwood but this delay crazy. I hate to think what my 965 would be worth today I hadn't sold it and moved on. Sherwood makes great units but they have got to get them to market. They've lost a lot of business with these delays.

I still think the wait is not actually due to anything with the 972, it is actually that they are waiting so they can give a free copy of Duke Nukem Forever with the AVR.

:)

It's getting close to the latest promised release date, so how about not disappointing people hoping for news with more of the same old complaints.

It's getting close to the latest promised release date, so how about not disappointing people hoping for news with more of the same old complaints.

Latest as in most recent or in latest possible release date.
You could always take my approach and start researching new years eve balls.

I don't want to get too cynical but outside of waiting for two years
I have come to accept that my ownership of this type of product will be a future one.
For now I am happy with an Onkyo 876 for the next few years.
If and when Trinnov becomes standardized and sells at a very good price point I will change.

Since moving from 2.1 to where I now listen 2.0, 2.1, 5.1 and 7.1
with my speaker setup and room configuration room correction has not even been an issue.
All my speakers are omnidirectional and I have not noticed a need for room correction.

Latest as in most recent estimate, which was late January.

I have my fingers and toes crossed. I've been patiently waiting since 01/07. Luckily I've found other electronics more important to upgrade in the meantime.

I hear ya,
There is always something to upgrade. I am still 720p in my dedicated HT. Waiting for my current PJ to die so I can go with one of the slick new sub $3K 1080p guns. I sold my PS3 last year so I have been without Blu-Ray which I will be looking into again when I go 1080p. Of course I will have to upgrade Pre-Pro's or replace with an AVR to handle the new audio formats. Oh, and my most recent addition was a new subwoofer which was an unplanned upgrade due to the untimely death of my velodyne:)

It never ends. This is why I feel it is of no use to get upset about the delay of any particular product. There is always something to buy/upgrade/replace. And although I would have liked to see the 972 a year ago - sitting on sidelines reading of the issues with other AVR's and Pre-pros has been amusing. The first and second gen receivers have all had their quirks and issues. I am not trying to say that the owners of these units are not satisfied, I am just saying that in my personal situation I am still content with what I have until I see something worthy of my cash.

Best Regards,
JD

If I'm not mistaken the Outlaw 997 will be manufactured by SN. My P965 had decent sound but was quirky, I won't buy another SN product again either, the support was just not there..

They do indeed. In fact, they OEM for many different manufacturers such as Marantz (and Denon) as well as others but they make these units to the specs of the client. Regardless, I'm not buying Newcastle again unless of course I know that the interface is improved and all the bugs I've encountered in the i872 have been avoided or worked out. My problem was that I was a first in line buyer without waiting to see what others experienced before hand.

I still think the wait is not actually due to anything with the 972, it is actually that they are waiting so they can give a free copy of Duke Nukem Forever with the AVR.

Hahahaha! Or a brand new Moller Skycar!

Any news from CES?

^^Yes but unfortunately it was the 2007 CES.

Funny. You'd think they would at least want to show off the one working example at CES 09.

Funny. You'd think they would at least want to show off the one working example at CES 09.

Assuming that there is one that actually works. I was really excited and interested in this unit about a year and some ago. But I decided to move on as I got tired of waiting and have lost interest in the product. I know that it happens that delays and external factors come into play, but I cannot understand how they manage to keep expecting people to wait after one deadline after the other. If this was just a few months setbacks, I could understand but how many times has this thing been delayed? I know I shouldn't voice my negative opinions here but I am just expressing what I truly feel in a respectful kind of way. I know they are working really hard at delivering an OUTSTANDING unit but I think its better to do baby steps and keep moving forward then trying to do giant leaps and takes 2+ years to achieve them. In my opinion, their PR has been damaged by somewhat loss of credibility....except for true undevoted loyal fans....but for those hoping to get in, I know I won't be.

Sherwood is the biggest joke in audio. I seriously doubt they have the resources to correct the bugs in beta not to mention the ones that will slip through testing. It will be just like the 965 just buggier.

Sherwood is the biggest joke in audio. I seriously doubt they have the resources to correct the bugs in beta not to mention the ones that will slip through testing. It will be just like the 965 just buggier.It's sad to admit, but I think you are right:(.

I also wanted want of these pretty badly, but I could not wait it out. I went with a Denon 3808CI and am happy.

I stay in this thread to find out when / if it is ever actually released...and then find out how good it it.

There will be no buyer's remorse, since I have had my Denon for over a year now.

Sherwood is the biggest joke in audio. I seriously doubt they have the resources to correct the bugs in beta not to mention the ones that will slip through testing. It will be just like the 965 just buggier.

Guess I have had better experiences. Current owner of their R963 and have been for 6 yrs. Really think its is easy to use and work with. I am not "tinkerer" and like to get things working then minor tweaks, but for most part I have been very happy. In fact, after working with some cheaper Marantz I use in other rooms (2 yrs old), I think it is much more intuitive to work with and use. Might be unfair compare considering the Marantz is about 1/3 the cost of the SN.

At same time, since my SN experience has been so good, curious to here what 1st adopters have to say about 972R. If the reviews are positive, I will take a serious close look at it. Must admit the release of this product does cause one to question company/management/operations on its product execution and if this is 1 bad bad example or it is a trend of internal problems at company. Time (and more customer feedback like expressed here) will tell.

I also wanted want of these pretty badly, but I could not wait it out. I went with a Denon 3808CI and am happy.

I stay in this thread to find out when / if it is ever actually released...and then find out how good it it.

There will be no buyer's remorse, since I have had my Denon for over a year now.


Any comment from Sherwood ? Here's a guy who was patiently waiting for your 972 and ended up buying a Denon a YEAR ago. It was announced TWO years ago ! I would wait two years for a Ferrari, that's about it. Sherwood has lost a LOT of customers by stringing them along with the promise of the 972. Serves em right, they BS'd their way through the 965 launch and it's inadequacies.

Count me as another one who waitedand sold the 965 while I could still get something for it and bought a Pioner Elite 92txh as a pre amp. I waited about 5 months after their August 2007 release date and realized it was time to sell the 965 and move on to something that supported the HD audio formats.

I was a seriously loyal S/N customer because the 965 sounded incredible but now I'm done with S/N for good.

Late 2007 I bought an Onkyo 905, and ended up returning it in very early 2008 due to many problems and crappy CS. I thought about holding out for a 972, since people were predicting 'any month'. Well I gave up and bought a Denon 3808CI a year ago. STILL no 972?

Seriously, S/N has some major management, PR and production problems. This speaks volumes, IMHO, about their poor management. Heck, if they had a rep on here answering questions and being 100% candid about the delays I bet people would be more understanding.

Transparency would go A LONG ways, and right now S/N is very opaque.

Late 2007 I bought an Onkyo 905, and ended up returning it in very early 2008 due to many problems and crappy CS. I thought about holding out for a 972, since people were predicting 'any month'. Well I gave up and bought a Denon 3808CI a year ago. STILL no 972?

Seriously, S/N has some major management, PR and production problems. This speaks volumes, IMHO, about their poor management. Heck, if they had a rep on here answering questions and being 100% candid about the delays I bet people would be more understanding.

Transparency would go A LONG ways, and right now S/N is very opaque.

LOL...Sounds like a short between the seat and the keyboard to me :eek: Please...LOL

LOL...Sounds like a short between the seat and the keyboard to me :eek: Please...LOL

What sounds like user error?

Well, I went home for lunch today and turned everything on to watch Tivo while eating. My R-872 turned on, then the front panel display went out. There was still audio, but no signal to my TV. After only 4 months of ownership.

I called my stereo guy who called his distributer and found out there there were a bunch of people at CES reporting problems with video switching. They're going to let me ship it back and exchange it for a new unit even though it's been a few months...so at least that's something.

However, I probably won't get the new one before Superbowl time, which means no gametime surround goodness.

Finding out about 1080P signals not being passed through unmolested and now this... I wish I had never bought a Sherwood product. If I could return it for a refund, I would.

Guess I shoulda gone with my gut instinct and stayed with Onkyo.

No - you should have went with Denon, Marantz, Yamaha or Pioneer.

I agree with DonoMan, stay away from Onkyo. Go with Denon, Marantz, Yamaha or Pioneer.

I agree with DonoMan, stay away from Onkyo. Go with Denon, Marantz, Yamaha or Pioneer.

+1 on that! I returned my Onkyo because of a plethora of problems, not the least of which is virtually non-existent firmware support.

Well, my 8 year old Onkyo DS-TX797 is still running along just perfectly fine. The only reason I bought this Sherwood is for HDMI switching and the advanced audio codecs.

Hence why I said I should have stayed with Onkyo. Go with what you know.

New updated site! sherwoodusa.com

What sounds like user error?

WV...has no application experience, will tell you something is great and never tried it....Thar She Blows.

I am glad I purchased my Onkyo;) But I am very interested in the new SN:)

No - you should have went with Denon, Marantz, Yamaha or Pioneer.

LOL...YouDontnoMan...All the mentioned manufactrurers are good including Onkyo:DPlease

No - you should have went with Denon, Marantz, Yamaha or Pioneer.

I have owned all mentioned here except the Marantz. I have a Onkyo 805 now and have not had a single problem. But to each his own:).

Bill

LOL...YouDontnoMan...All the mentioned manufactrurers are good including Onkyo:DPlease

Please yourself. Onkyo support is a joke. I agree with DonoMan, choose any of those others and you are better off.

Ah yes...opinionated forum posters that believe you're wrong if you don't like the same gear.

It seems like just yesterday since I last saw that. Oh, wait... :D

Does anyone have Stereojeff's email?

I want to ask for the latest 972 ETA.

Thanks

Please yourself. Onkyo support is a joke. I agree with DonoMan, choose any of those others and you are better off.

LOL...Where were you when I had problems with my Denon! The Denon Support Sucked! My Onkyo has had no problems, IDoKnowMan on that:D LOL. All the manufacturers have problems from time to time...like my Pioneer and my HK did. Hey if you don't like it, return it!

LOL...Where were you when I had problems with my Denon! The Denon Support Sucked! My Onkyo has had no problems, IDoKnowMan on that:D LOL. All the manufacturers have problems from time to time...like my Pioneer and my HK did. Hey if you don't like it, return it!

Try looking through the Onkyo support forums. This isn't a specific problem with a specific product. This is the "we could care less about our customers" attitude of Onkyo. I love this BS with people making excuses for these companies. I guess you are all so used to being screwed you enjoy it.

does anyone have stereojeff's email?

I want to ask for the latest 972 eta.

Thankslol

Has anyone considered the Integra DTR-8.9 as an alternative to the 972?
I wonder how the two compare in sound quality.

Try looking through the Onkyo support forums. This isn't a specific problem with a specific product. This is the "we could care less about our customers" attitude of Onkyo. I love this BS with people making excuses for these companies. I guess you are all so used to being screwed you enjoy it.


I have read many of your posts...very interesting. I can see in your posts lots of miss-application! Now I can understand why you are having problems:( Maybe you should buy a clock radio;)

Just got this back from Jeff:

We are scheduled to build the R-972 in late February, 2009 and they will
be in the US and available for sale at the end of March.

With this situation we've had of ongoing delay in 972 availability, I
have not thought it advisable to further damage credibility by posting
dates I can't guarantee.

Should you wish to post the above, please do so as it is the best
information I have.

Jeff

"lol"

I can't disagree; how many "in 2 mos" is this now?

Thanks Noah!

Just in time for the Recession! :D

Just got this additional info from Jeff:

"There are several issues that are almost all solved:

1. The HQV Reon technology was sold in August and we had to re-establish technical support from the purchasing company.

2. We had many issues with how to support 96 kH and 192 kHz audio with Triinnov. We all wanted to maintain the same filter depth used in the Trinnov professional optimizer. For a while this was elusive and the CEDIA Expo demos (which garnered rave reviews from all who attended) actually used filters that were one-half as powerful and the professional box. Trinnov has now figured out how to restore the professional filters. That took some time.

3. The final issue has been user control. We actually have two small computers in the R-972 that translate user commands into the machine's language. Getting fully reliable command has been time consuming.

While I'm told all of the above are now solved, I don't want to make further delivery commitments until I have units in-hand that are complete."

I have read many of your posts...very interesting. I can see in your posts lots of miss-application! Now I can understand why you are having problems:( Maybe you should buy a clock radio;)

What's a "miss-application"? Maybe you should try to get paid for blindly defending a company that could care less about its customers. Then again, you might want to work on your English first.

Amazing. Do you think you're "cool" or something? Maybe you think that talking people into getting screwed makes you important. Incredible.

PS: If the 972 existed when I had bought the 8.8, I would have bought it instead and saved the headache. As it turns out, by the time the 972 is out and any initial bugs are worked through, it may be almost time to upgrade. At least it appears that Sherwood supports its customers, even if they are a "little" off on their product schedules.

LOL...The difference between you and I. If I had a problem, I would take it back immediately...you keep the product and complain about it. You love misery, I love my Onkyo 885:D Furthermore all of my upgrade were thru Onkyo, a) downloaded from the web, or, b) sent to me on CD. I guess that is another difference between you and I, They don't like you:p LOL

You really are full of yourself, aren't you.

Perhaps I expected that Onkyo would actually fix the bugs in their software. But unfortunately nobody warned me that Onkyo considers its customers a nuisance.
Perhaps you should look to see how many official updates for the 875/905/8.8/8.9 Onkyo has provided? None.
Perhaps you should look at the fact that Silicon Optix (the maker of video chipset in the receivers) told Onkyo they have a problem with their implementation and Onkyo has ignored it.
Perhaps you should look at the HUNDREDS OF MESSAGES from people with the same problems and same useless response from Onkyo.

But then again, you wouldn't want facts to ruin your self-image.

Well, I'm done with this since I'm sure it won't penetrate and this is the wrong thread for the discussion. Hopefully, if nothing else, it will convince some people to wait a little longer for the 972 instead of giving up and buying an Onkyo.

You really are full of yourself, aren't you.

Perhaps I expected that Onkyo would actually fix the bugs in their software. But unfortunately nobody warned me that Onkyo considers its customers a nuisance.
Perhaps you should look to see how many official updates for the 875/905/8.8/8.9 Onkyo has provided? None.
Perhaps you should look at the fact that Silicon Optix (the maker of video chipset in the receivers) told Onkyo they have a problem with their implementation and Onkyo has ignored it.
Perhaps you should look at the HUNDREDS OF MESSAGES from people with the same problems and same useless response from Onkyo.

But then again, you wouldn't want facts to ruin your self-image.

Well, I'm done with this since I'm sure it won't penetrate and this is the wrong thread for the discussion. Hopefully, if nothing else, it will convince some people to wait a little longer for the 972 instead of giving up and buying an Onkyo.

Well said and mirrors my experience exactly. That's why I would wait A GOOD LONG TIME after the 972 comes out, if it ever does, to 1) See what bugs are present and 2) If there are any, if SN fixes them and how quickly.

If SN is like Onkyo and virtually ignores bugs and treats customers as pests, then vote with your $$ and take your business elsewhere. Of course no manufacturer is perfect, but no one deserves to be treated like pests.

You really are full of yourself, aren't you.

Perhaps I expected that Onkyo would actually fix the bugs in their software. But unfortunately nobody warned me that Onkyo considers its customers a nuisance.
Perhaps you should look to see how many official updates for the 875/905/8.8/8.9 Onkyo has provided? None.
Perhaps you should look at the fact that Silicon Optix (the maker of video chipset in the receivers) told Onkyo they have a problem with their implementation and Onkyo has ignored it.
Perhaps you should look at the HUNDREDS OF MESSAGES from people with the same problems and same useless response from Onkyo.

But then again, you wouldn't want facts to ruin your self-image.

Well, I'm done with this since I'm sure it won't penetrate and this is the wrong thread for the discussion. Hopefully, if nothing else, it will convince some people to wait a little longer for the 972 instead of giving up and buying an Onkyo.

Again, If you don't like it take it back...stop complaining about it. But you can't, can you:D WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA! Again, all my updates were done thru Onkyo;) You and WV need to work on your application experience. Hey, if you want the 972, wait. Sounds good to me. But take back your receiver and get something that is easy to set up and that you like;)

I can't wait for the 972. :D

So end of march in US means july in europa.
I really can't wait :D

I can't wait for the 972. :D

So end of march in US means july in europa.
I really can't wait :D

It will not be here by the end of March.

At this rate, I might actually be ready for a new receiver when this one comes out.

:)

C'mon guys, it's getting really old hoping for some on topic info, only to find more pointless bickering.

posts deleted:

please stop the bickering or you will be asked to leave the thread

C'mon guys, it's getting really old hoping for some on topic info, only to find more pointless bickering.

Personally, I am being serious.

I was bumping the product in the hopes it would cause StereoJeff to realize people would like more info.

You don't have to bump this thread for him to know people have been waiting over two years. Quite sad really.

It's sad, I agree. But if this receivers is as good as we hope,
it's not a problem to wait.

Even without HD audio, the 965 is still the better receiver under 2500$ on the market.
And I tried the Z7, the 906, the 3808 and the marrantz, so I know what I'm talking about.

So that's for sure, the R-972 will be mine :cool:

It's sad, I agree. But if this receivers is as good as we hope,
it's not a problem to wait.

Even without HD audio, the 965 is still the better receiver under 2500$ on the market.
And I tried the Z7, the 906, the 3808 and the marrantz, so I know what I'm talking about.

So that's for sure, the R-972 will be mine :cool:While I loved the heck out of my P-965 pre amp and only got rid of it due to the lack of HD audio and HDMI switching, I'd have to disagree with your findings. I did an in home demo of a few receivers to use as a pre amp and with either Audessy, YPAO, or MCACC room correction software engaged these receivers all bested the P-965. I ended up getting a New Pioneer Elite VSX-92TXH(MSRP $1200) with MCACC for just over $800 and it's MSRP is a a lot less than $2500 and sounds better than the P-965 and supports HD audio, HDMI switching and room EQ software.

Don't get me wrong the 965 series is great, but there is a lot in the $1000 range that sounds as good, if not better with room correction software.

I sold my P-965 1 yr ago and the best I could really get for it was about $700. Try to sell one now and you'll be lucky to get $600. There's a lot under $2500 that out performs the 965.

It's sad, I agree. But if this receivers is as good as we hope,
it's not a problem to wait.

Even without HD audio, the 965 is still the better receiver under 2500$ on the market.
And I tried the Z7, the 906, the 3808 and the marrantz, so I know what I'm talking about.

So that's for sure, the R-972 will be mine :cool:

Well, I have owned the Denon 3808Ci and P-965, and at the same time, and without a doubt the Denon is superior. The P-965 had/has a better PHYSICAL remote (MX-500, rebadged), no question. The Denon remote is garbage. BUT...the 965 interface stunk. Even upgraded, the P-965 still had issues detecting the audio flags in a soundtrack. The remote never controlled what you thought it did.

The Denon GUI is vastly superior to the 965. Throw in HDMI 1.3 switching, and you're nto even in the same league. Video switching of the 965, such as it is, is a pale facsimile to the Denon.

And, most importantly, I found the Denon sound quality to be noticeably better. And the SNAP auto-calibration doesn't come close to the Audyessy.

The 965 isn't a piece of junk. But to make the ridiculous staement, "It's the best under $2500 AVR on the market" is complete and utter bunk.

So you don't think I'm making these issues up, you can search my name on this thread and check out my disillusionment with SN as I worked through all this problems, and my subsequent mounting frustration with the unit.

I admit, I do still subscribe to this thread because the whole SN thing is like a gaper delay on the turnpike. You can't help but look at the wreckage as you drive by. I figure, especially given the current economic downturn, that the SN brand is not long for this world. A 2-year delay for a new piece of audio hardware? Come on. They either ran out of cash or didn't have the personnel able to build what they envisioned. Or they simply felt that the market wasn't there for them. Their distribution channel sucks, if nothing else.

Like I said, impending car wreck.

Hi there,

I didn't think that my post would provocate so many answers.:D

My mistake, of course, it depends of a lot of things.
But, these last two months, I bought 3 receivers (Onkyo 906, Yamaha Z7, Marrantz 6003) and try another one (Denon 3808).
I made a lot of comparaison with the sherwood, and on my system (Davis acoustic) in My dedicated room, the sherwood was always the better.
I'm not talking about Gui, or video processing, or even possibilities ; just about the sound.
Everything was more punchy, alive, awesome.

I was very disapointed, because I really wanted changed my system to go HD.
I bought the 6003, kept it 2 days, and sent it back to store.
Then I bought the Z7, kept it one week, and even if it was really powerfull, I didn't love the sound (too cold).
After that, I bought the Onkyo 906, and was really impressed by this amp.
Unfortunately again, the sound was less great than the sherwood.

Let's forget the 3808, it was absolutely ridiculous.
It was the receiver of a friend of mine, and after the comparaison,
He was so upset that he sold it to buy a yamaha.

Just one thing : All the test has been made in pure direct, without equalisation correction.

I don't know, maybe it's because of my speakers, but I still haven't heard something better than the sherwood.

I've talked about that with my reseller, and was surprised that he wasn't.:confused:
He has a lot of clients, ancient sherwood's owner, which are really disapointed with their new receiver.
They're asking him every week, when the new R-972 will be available.

And today, I understand why...

Has the R-972 gone into production/shipping yet? I did a search on Google just to see if there was any news and an R-972 popped up on eBay "NIB" for $1,612.00. When I hit the link, eBay says "Item has ended." My first thought was that the seller had a typo and that it was really an overpriced R-872. But then I visited the seller's store where they are listing an R-872 for $865.00. I was wondering if someone has one in their store and they're just not supposed to release it yet? I'm skeptical since Outlaw said yesterday that "there are still some modifications that need to be tested and wrung out" on the R-972 before that product can move to production.

I didn't think that my post would provocate so many answers.:DHey we like to mix it up:)



Just one thing : All the test has been made in pure direct, without equalisation correction.On this I agree with you. In my room and with the receivers I demoed (I wrote in the Pioneer thread about a year ago) that the P-965 without room EQ easily sounded better than all the ones I demoed in pure direct mode. Also the 965 with SNAP just wasn't in the same league with the other receiver's EQs(sound wise). So for me the 965 beat the others when no EQ was used. Turn on the EQ in the other receivers and the 965(with or without EQ) just couldn't compete.

Hey we like to mix it up:)


On this I agree with you. In my room and with the receivers I demoed (I wrote in the Pioneer thread about a year ago) that the P-965 without room EQ easily sounded better than all the ones I demoed in pure direct mode. Also the 965 with SNAP just wasn't in the same league with the other receiver's EQs(sound wise). So for me the 965 beat the others when no EQ was used. Turn on the EQ in the other receivers and the 965(with or without EQ) just couldn't compete.

Interesting.

What is for you the best room EQ ?
Because I tried the Audissey on the onkyo 906, and the result wasn't as good as without.
But a lot of french people thinks it's because of its cheap mic.

"Has the R-972 gone into production/shipping yet?"

No.

Latest ETA from Sherwood is late March. Read back to a post or two ago of mine for what Jeff of Sherwood said via email.

Just got this additional info from Jeff:

"There are several issues that are almost all solved:

1. The HQV Reon technology was sold in August and we had to re-establish technical support from the purchasing company.

2. We had many issues with how to support 96 kH and 192 kHz audio with Triinnov. We all wanted to maintain the same filter depth used in the Trinnov professional optimizer. For a while this was elusive and the CEDIA Expo demos (which garnered rave reviews from all who attended) actually used filters that were one-half as powerful and the professional box. Trinnov has now figured out how to restore the professional filters. That took some time.

3. The final issue has been user control. We actually have two small computers in the R-972 that translate user commands into the machine's language. Getting fully reliable command has been time consuming.

While I'm told all of the above are now solved, I don't want to make further delivery commitments until I have units in-hand that are complete."

Hi Noah,

I develop software for a living and the excuses he gave are by far and away the weakest and lamest I have ever seen. I would say that these guys outsourced all the development and just have continuing problems, they have no control over what is going on. Even the trinnov one they could have released the unit and upgraded it in the field, the hardware spec has not changed.

What they should have done is hired their own software developers like denon who are committed long term to developing the software.

I want a Trinnov unit but I will not buy from a company like this all it shows is that if there are any problems with the unit in the field and because it is all software there will be, the liklihood of them fixing it in a timely fashion is zero.

They are a hardware company at the mercy of software engineers. They will go the way of the dinosaur.

Broke

Broke, you would have them hire Denon as software developers? That would be like letting your competitor analyze and experiment with some amazing new breakthrough technology that you've developed yourself. I'm not sure they would want to do that. If their new room correction technology is as amazing as those who've heard it say it is, then it would be a new benchmark in the industry, and give Sherwood a competitive advantage over everyone else.

That doesn't guarantee sales, and I'm sure their market share is pretty small, but if they play their hand right, it could dramatically increase their market share and profits.

Hi Noah,

I develop software for a living and the excuses he gave are by far and away the weakest and lamest I have ever seen. I would say that these guys outsourced all the development and just have continuing problems, they have no control over what is going on. Even the trinnov one they could have released the unit and upgraded it in the field, the hardware spec has not changed.

What they should have done is hired their own software developers like denon who are committed long term to developing the software.

I want a Trinnov unit but I will not buy from a company like this all it shows is that if there are any problems with the unit in the field and because it is all software there will be, the liklihood of them fixing it in a timely fashion is zero.

They are a hardware company at the mercy of software engineers. They will go the way of the dinosaur.

Broke

They did a HORRIBLE job with software and interface on the 965, HORRIBLE.

oh dear!
R-965 was in 2004/2005 and gave you perfect and balanced sound.
Add a beautiful GUI, hdmi 1.3, HD audio, HQV REON and TRINNOV and you have R-972.
To go into details i know this from TAV show (Milan):
- Pure Audio Construction against any mechanical and electrical interference
- eight D/A 192khz/24bit
- current trasformer with 1 Kilowatt of power
- circuit configuration like some mcintosh: every channel is build with own circuit card; the circuit discrete has an input differential PNP, pure complementary and output pushpull

Yeah, that's funny...

You can think whatever you want, facts won"t change.
I don't know about the sherwood R-972, but the 965 is still IMO (and a lot of pros) one of the greatest receiver ever made under 2500$.

Ok its kind of obsolete about HDMI, Room EQ, and vidéo.
But concerning the sound... Find me something better, and I'll buy it.

And by the way, I have the same nickname on the french forum.
So if you want to make your investigation about my interest in this thread, be my guest...

Sorry pred1973 i write a little but i read much.
I have spoken of TRINNOV with andrea aghemo design engineer of P.A.C. (Phase and Amplitude Correction System) € 4.500 AVA ITALY
I cannot forget his face speaking of the superior capabilities of TRINNOV compared to P.A.C. but... it costs more than € 10.000 ..."it is expensive" he said.

Jeff get on with R-972.

In general, I tend to ignore people who post x, y or z is just awful. For example, the other day someone here blasted a Denon AVR-3808 as just trash. I ignored it because I have one and I know better. It's not worth responding. We no doubt have trolls here who have an interest in knocking some models and boosting others. We also have opinionated people; some wouldn't know accurate reproduction from a hole in the ground. Then too we have lots of objective members who are here to learn and share.

The best thing is to take everything your read with a grain of salt. Most manufacturers produce credible products and the differences are often subtle at best. If one post is way out of line, write it off as a bad system match, a bad day for the observer, bad ears, or a bad attitude.

Hey we like to mix it up:)

On this I agree with you. In my room and with the receivers I demoed (I wrote in the Pioneer thread about a year ago) that the P-965 without room EQ easily sounded better than all the ones I demoed in pure direct mode. Also the 965 with SNAP just wasn't in the same league with the other receiver's EQs(sound wise). So for me the 965 beat the others when no EQ was used. Turn on the EQ in the other receivers and the 965(with or without EQ) just couldn't compete.

So, are you saying the SQ from the 972 should be better than the others if S/N does a good job of implementing the Trinnov Optimizer and the rest of the receiever is as good or better as/than the 965?

So, are you saying the SQ from the 972 should be better than the others if S/N does a good job of implementing the Trinnov Optimizer and the rest of the receiver is as good or better as/than the 965?No not at all. I'm a fan of only making comments based on my own experience with equipment and not based on any previous equipment. I have no idea how the 972 will sound with or without EQ compared to any other receiver. In order for me to make any comments on the 972's sounds I'd have to have one in my home for a demo(which won't happen even after it is released).

No not at all. I'm a fan of only making comments based on my own experience with equipment and not based on any previous equipment. I have no idea how the 972 will sound with or without EQ compared to any other receiver. In order for me to make any comments on the 972's sounds I'd have to have one in my home for a demo(which won't happen even after it is released).

OK. Like you I'm also awaiting it's release.

OK. Like you I'm also awaiting it's release.

I WAS waiting, but no longer. A company that can't get a product out the door two years after announcing it has serious internal problems. Whatever the root cause of the massive delays, I have zero faith in the company now.

Not that I'm an Apple fan (quite the opposite) but maybe SN should take a page from Apple's play book and NOT announce products until they are virtually ready to ship.

I wish SN nothing but the best, but in this economy its going to be tough to sell a receiver with an $1800 msrp. Sure they will sell some, but people are holding onto their money pretty tight and A/v gear is a luxury not a necessity. Two yrs ago SN would have done well when room EQ, HDMI etc... was all the rave in receivers. Now it's common place. Add to that, that they have lost a lot of loyal supporters that would have bought a 972 and they are in for a tough time. Especially when you're betting the farm on a single expensive product to keep you alive. Sure I know they have other products, but there's no big buying spree going on for SN CD players, DVD players, or 965 receivers and pre amps.

Does anybody here besides me have an R-872?

I think I've found a problem with it decoding bitstreamed 7.1 HD-DTS MA material. I get annoying random "pops" of noise that make the movie unwatchable. :( The movie in question is Narnia: Prince Caspian on Bluray.

From the Sony BDP-S350 forum that I posted in (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1046952&p=15781518):

Now...there is only one English track on the disk, and that's 7.1 DTS-HD Master Audio. When the movie is playing, the display on my receiver says DTS-MA HD. That's all well and good. Except for the random popping sound that occurs. I swapped the disk today at Best Buy and the same thing occurs, although the popping happens in different places. If there's a pop, I can rewind and when I play again, the pop comes from the same speaker at the same point in the movie which led me to think it was an encoding issue. I also found another thread about Prince Caspian, wherein a bunch of Pioneer TX94 receiver owners apparently have audio problems - drop outs and such. Apparently Pioneer has said that there is a firmware update that will fix the problem.

So..I changed the audio track to French 5.1, and the audio pops appeared to go away. Switch it back, and they come back. Not a good solution, as I don't speak French.

I changed BD Audio Setting from Direct to Mix. Now I don't seem to hear any pops. However, now my receiver displays Multi PCM. I'm not entirely sure what this has done, but I don't have a sense of "feel good" right now since it doesn't say DTS-HD MA. I suspect I'm not getting the highest quality sound now.

So my question is: Is there another setting besides "mix" that I need to change? Could this possibly be a problem with the S350? Sure, I could just change it to Mix and leave it there since that appears to be a workaround, but it's not The Right Thing.

Is there any way to conclusively tell where to problem actually is? I'm afraid that it's something to do with my receiver. I don't REALLY want to hear that since I'm stuck with it and I have a feeling Sherwood isn't going to be any help.

This is the only BR I've had a problem with so far. It's also the only one I have that is in DTS-HD MA 7.1...so without going out and buying another movie, I can't rule out the DTS-MA decoding in the receiver.

Any thoughts would be appreciated, thanks.

It was suggested by Mr. G in his reply:

There are several BD movies that exhibit the infamous Bitstream dts-MA "bomb" and it's generally a problem with the receiver doing the decoding via HDMI.

That is, in fact the case. I have a single HDMI going from the BDP to the R-872.

I also found THIS (http://forums.highdefdigest.com/blu-ray-hardware-general-discussion/49978-loud-popping-sound-when-bitstreaming-dts-ma-solved.html) thread referencing the DTS-MA "bomb" when bitstreaming...affecting certain Yamaha and Onkyo receivers. And, since my understanding is that Sherwood and Onkyo are partnered at some level, they may be using a common chip with the problem. Plenty of talk about firmware updates there as well.

So...does anybody else here have an R-872, have they bitstreamed 7.1 DTS-MA, and have they experienced a problem?

Thanks...

Broke, you would have them hire Denon as software developers? That would be like letting your competitor analyze and experiment with some amazing new breakthrough technology that you've developed yourself. I'm not sure they would want to do that. If their new room correction technology is as amazing as those who've heard it say it is, then it would be a new benchmark in the industry, and give Sherwood a competitive advantage over everyone else.

That doesn't guarantee sales, and I'm sure their market share is pretty small, but if they play their hand right, it could dramatically increase their market share and profits.

No I said they should hire their own internal software engineers dedicated to the job so that it was an ongoing thing and they constantly update it. Todays sound processors are basically computers with some analogue outs.

The first processor with Trinnov and Dolby Volume or an equivalent I will buy as long as it is not Newcastle as I believe if things went wrong with it they would be unlikely to provide updates or updates would take so long as to be pointless as you would have your next processor before they released it. I really wish Denon or Onkyo would take up Trinnov. Anyone that has a record of updating their receivers.

No I said they should hire their own internal software engineers dedicated to the job so that it was an ongoing thing and they constantly update it. Todays sound processors are basically computers with some analogue outs.

The first processor with Trinnov and Dolby Volume or an equivalent I will buy as long as it is not Newcastle as I believe if things went wrong with it they would be unlikely to provide updates or updates would take so long as to be pointless as you would have your next processor before they released it. I really wish Denon or Onkyo would take up Trinnov. Anyone that has a record of updating their receivers.

Their track record certainly suggests they can't properly support any firmware based products, I'm sure the 972 is no exception. They "announced" it over two years ago and still no properly working sample... these guys are in trouble if you ask me. I am patiently waiting for the UMC 1, I wouldn't own another SN product again after the quirkiness and lack of support for the 965.

Their track record certainly suggests they can't properly support any firmware based products, I'm sure the 972 is no exception. They "announced" it over two years ago and still no properly working sample... these guys are in trouble if you ask me. I am patiently waiting for the UMC 1, I wouldn't own another SN product again after the quirkiness and lack of support for the 965.


I would agree that support can be better, but having said that, it wasn't non existant. They did the SNAP upgrade for free, have had several firmware updates, and always answered my questions on the phone and via email.

One can only hope that retrofit hardware upgrades will be offered once the 972 is established in the marketplace. How great would it be if HDMI daughter cards or Bitstream processors were offered as upgrades for the 965!

"How great would it be if HDMI daughter cards or Bitstream processors were offered as upgrades for the 965!"

Why in the world would you expect that?

It's rare enough getting hdwe upgrades for components w/upgradability designed in and/or promised from the outset.

Hi Jeff,

A little update would be really apreciated :D

Thank You

That's funny, Jeff used to chime in all the time...

He's on vacation

Does anybody here besides me have an R-872?
....
That is, in fact the case. I have a single HDMI going from the BDP to the R-872.
....
So...does anybody else here have an R-872, have they bitstreamed 7.1 DTS-MA, and have they experienced a problem?
....
Thanks...

I also have a Sony BDP-S350 (actually, the identical Costco version labeled as BX1 instead of S350) connected by HDMI to an R-872, with the same BDP settings as yours, but I have not experienced your popping problem on the Blu-rays I have watched bitstreaming DTS-MA. However, I have not watched the specific movie that exhibited the problem for you.

On a related topic: since the R-872 apparently does not pass 1080p (which I was surprised to learn on this thread), and since my Sharp 65D64U says on the screen that it is receiving 1080p from the R-872, that must mean that the BDP-S350 (with its HDMI Resolution parameter set to Auto) is sending 1080i to the R-872 and the receiver is de-interlacing it and outputting it as 1080p.

So my question is: would I notice any difference in picture quality if the receiver were passing a 1080p signal instead of converting a 1080i signal to 1080p?

On a related topic: since the R-872 apparently does not pass 1080p (which I was surprised to learn on this thread), and since my Sharp 65D64U says on the screen that it is receiving 1080p from the R-872, that must mean that the BDP-S350 (with its HDMI Resolution parameter set to Auto) is sending 1080i to the R-872 and the receiver is de-interlacing it and outputting it as 1080p.

So my question is: would I notice any difference in picture quality if the receiver were passing a 1080p signal instead of converting a 1080i signal to 1080p?

I have since found a couple of articles that effectively say there is no difference in picture quality between 1080i and 1080p when when watching a Blu-ray movie. See
http://blog.hometheatermag.com/geoffreymorrison/0807061080iv1080p/ and
http://hometheater.about.com/od/televisionbasics/qt/1080ivs1080p.htm

I have been reading now for over two years about the 972.

I found it quite disconcerting that people talk only with assumptions.

I give up a long time ago about it's release, and will come to the table only when the physical unit will be concrete. TRINNOV seems to be very interesting, but seems and is are two different things.

People can talk all they want, where will it bring you in the end, when new technologies
are just waiting in the corner?
Or that major progress will be released before the 972?

That's my 2 cents.

I have since found a couple of articles that effectively say there is no difference in picture quality between 1080i and 1080p when when watching a Blu-ray movie. See
http://blog.hometheatermag.com/geoffreymorrison/0807061080iv1080p/ and
http://hometheater.about.com/od/televisionbasics/qt/1080ivs1080p.htm


Yeah. Written in 2006. 1080i and 1080p ARE the same resolution. BUT...1080p is scanned progressively, and is better than 1080i when motion occurs on the screen. Less tendency to blur.

Less that the difference between SD and HD for sure, but you get that extra bit of focus/clarity. Unless your TV or projector sucks, becaus then you're SOL.

Sherwood Newcastle is another, non-latin way, to say Caveat Emptor.

I really wish Denon or Onkyo would take up Trinnov. Anyone that has a record of updating their receivers.

Ya if Denon incorporated Trinnov and it lives up to the hype, I'd be all over it. Sherwood? No way in hell.

Does anybody here besides me have an R-872?

I think I've found a problem with it decoding bitstreamed 7.1 HD-DTS MA material.
Update:

Well, it took a couple weeks and a few E-Mails back and forth with support, but I finally received the firmware update files in E-Mail today. I hooked up an old laptop to the R-872 VIA serial cable and performed the upgrade steps.

My firmware levels before/after:

Sys Micom: 3.21/3.26
DSP Part: 3.01/3.12
DSP Flash: 06.24.02/08.19.01

I just finished watching about 20 minutes of the problem BD and didn't hear a single pop or other anomaly - it sounded crystal clear and was reported as DTS-HD MA as it should.

So, it appears the problem was the receiver, and they had an update that made it all better.

Thanks Jeff!

The Outlaw Saloon has someone posting "sometime in April" for the R-972 availability. The alleged source was the "sales guys at Sherwood Newcastle." Not too surprising given the last official "Outlaw Audio" post three weeks ago from Peter that said S/N was still working through some issues. This would imply they plan to move to production within the next few weeks (if they haven't already).

"How great would it be if HDMI daughter cards or Bitstream processors were offered as upgrades for the 965!"

Why in the world would you expect that?

It's rare enough getting hdwe upgrades for components w/upgradability designed in and/or promised from the outset.

Noah,

No expectations here, just good ole' daydreaming.... How great would it be!

I'm told late April for the release of the R-972 is real. Can't wait to hear the real deal. Let the speculation end. It will be real performance discussed on this forum very soon. Surprised this forum is so quiet a month prior to release!

It's quiet cause we're waiting :D

Jeff told me about April as well.
So it seems to be real :)

Therefore, We still have no idea of the release price.

It would be pretty tough to say late April in late March and be wrong. It is crazy that it has taken this long to put something out, but to say late April would indicate production lines are rolling. By the time you manufacture and ship the product (from China) to your distributors, then ship it out to your retailers, that would easily take a month. Before it was always a couple months out. This is new territory for the R-972.

Yes, but just as easy to say "we found a defect and halted the line to ensure a properly functioning product, so there will be delay of a few more weeks" Companies do this all the time.

It would be pretty tough to say late April in late March and be wrong. It is crazy that it has taken this long to put something out, but to say late April would indicate production lines are rolling. By the time you manufacture and ship the product (from China) to your distributors, then ship it out to your retailers, that would easily take a month. Before it was always a couple months out. This is new territory for the R-972.


You're kidding, right? We're talking CES 2007, here, my man. Proof is when it's physically "on the shelf."

You're kidding, right? We're talking CES 2007, here, my man. Proof is when it's physically "on the shelf."

I'm well aware of the history. I'm not gauranteeing anything. But given their history, I don't think they'd be throwing a 30 day alert if they weren't sure they could make it. They may have announced this product in 2007, but its not like anyone else has come out with a Trinnov based receiver either. They clearly have had a lot of mistakes along the way. All I'm saying is that they've cried wolf before and got bit. I'm betting they're not crying wolf this time.

Maybe I'm just a pessimist, but I sure wouldn't bet the mortgage anything Sherwood says.

Maybe I'm just a pessimist, but I sure wouldn't bet the mortgage anything Sherwood says.

Nor would I!

It's "only" a month now ;)
we'll wait and see

2 years ago the 972 would have been the hot new receiver. Now its pretty much vaporware. As pred1973 mentioned there's really not anything in the 972 that makes it any better than other receiver on the market today. Sherwood missed the window of opportunity with this one.

2 years ago the 972 wouldn't have been the hot new receiver. Now its pretty much vaporware. As pred1973 mentioned there's really not anything in the 972 that makes it any better than other receiver on the market today. Sherwood missed the window of opportunity with this one.

As I said, the speculation can now end. I think it is difficult to say that it isn't any better than anything else out there until you've heard it. Trinnov's room correction has been highly acclaimed by those who've heard it (as recently as October 2008). It has been called a game changer. Once again, that is what those who have heard it have said. I have not heard it yet. I am not saying it is a game changer. I'm just saying that now we'll know. Have you heard it or are you speculating?

maybe i'm just a pessimist, but i sure wouldn't bet the mortgage anything sherwood says.+1

2 years ago the 972 wouldn't have been the hot new receiver. Now its pretty much vaporware. As pred1973 mentioned there's really not anything in the 972 that makes it any better than other receiver on the market today. Sherwood missed the window of opportunity with this one.

+1

As I said, the speculation can now end. I think it is difficult to say that it isn't any better than anything else out there until you've heard it. Trinnov's room correction has been highly acclaimed by those who've heard it (as recently as October 2008). It has been called a game changer. Once again, that is what those who have heard it have said. I have not heard it yet. I am not saying it is a game changer. I'm just saying that now we'll know. Have you heard it or are you speculating?no I have not heard the 972. Many things are hyped by the media and marketing departments and when the product is released it ends up being just OK.

The "game changer" comment you speak of from 2008 was made by Outlaw Audio when they announced their upcoming 997 which is a Sherwood 972 clone http://ubb.outlawaudio.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/ubb/get_topic/f/32/t/000049.html. Since Outlaw will be selling a 972 clone it's marketing hype for them to call it a game changer. Since then blogs and other articles have quoted Outlaw's term "game changer" in their articles.

Back in 2002 a couple of people on HTF hyped Outlaw's 950 pre amp ($999) as sounding as good if not better than a Lexicon MC-1 (msrp $6000). Well when actual users got their hands on it, it turned out to sound like a $999 pre amp not a $6000 MC-1. My point is, it's all marketing hype until it really comes to market and real users, not the media or a company that is selling a clone are the ones who will be the judges of how much of a game changer it is.

I hate to sound cynical, and I wish Sherwood nothing but the best with the 972 and their future products. My problem is I've seen this too many times before from other products that don't live up to the hype.

It may or may not live up to the hype. We'll find out soon enough. If it does live up to the hype, it will be interesting to see if the tone of this forum changes. My original post:

I'm told late April for the release of the R-972 is real. Can't wait to hear the real deal. Let the speculation end. It will be real performance discussed on this forum very soon. Surprised this forum is so quiet a month prior to release!

As the swamp king said in the Holy Grail, "Please! This is supposed to be a happy occasion. Let's not bicker and argue over who killed who."

Does anyone know what the drive level is for the outputs for an external amp? Just curious as I recently read a lot of modern AVRs are only outputting 1.2mV instead of the traditional 2mV.

It is on sale on Amazon :eek:

Has any one compared Audyssey and Trinnov?

April 1st the following manufacturer are releasing their long awaited products:

- Oppo BDP-83 Blu Ray Player
- Sherwood R-972
- Classe SSP-800 Upgraded with DTS MA and DD True HD
- Lexus RXh 450 Hybrid....

:D

I don't see it on Amazon.

It is on sale on Amazon :eek:

Has any one compared Audyssey and Trinnov?

April 1st the following manufacturer are releasing their long awaited products:

- Oppo BDP-83 Blu Ray Player
- Sherwood R-972
- Classe SSP-800 Upgraded with DTS MA and DD True HD
- Lexus RXh 450 Hybrid....

:DCan't find it. Please post a link.

April 1st...

For the launch of a product severely delayed...

Sounds fishy to me.

April 1st the following manufacturer are releasing their long awaited products:

- Oppo BDP-83 Blu Ray Player
- Sherwood R-972
- Classe SSP-800 Upgraded with DTS MA and DD True HD
- Lexus RXh 450 Hybrid....

:D
I have no idea about the Classe or Lexus, but OPPO has not set a release date for the BDP-83 (the closest they've come is to indicate that it could happen as soon as early to mid April, but the second EAP group is still starting to get familiar with the player) and the R-972 rumors I've seen seemed to point toward a mid to late April arrival for it.

April 1st...

For the launch of a product severely delayed...

Sounds fishy to me.I should have noticed that the date was April 1st. Still a good spoof.

I just received a pdf of the operating instructions.

If someone can host it and post a link, I'll email it (it's 14 MB) to them; PM me.

Can't find it. Please post a link.

Sorry it is delayed again until May or may be we will see it at CEDIA 2009 :eek:

Thanks to gonk for hosting the file.

Thanks to gonk for hosting the file.

Link?

Wait for gonk to post it.

wait for gonk to post it.

gracias :)

This link (http://www.prillaman.net/sn2007avr/R-972(A)_ENG_090225.pdf) will get you Noah's copy of the manual.

This link (http://www.prillaman.net/sn2007avr/R-972(A)_ENG_090225.pdf) will get you Noah's copy of the manual.

Mucho Grande :confused:

Thanks you for that :D

2 years ago the 972 would have been the hot new receiver. Now its pretty much vaporware. As pred1973 mentioned there's really not anything in the 972 that makes it any better than other receiver on the market today. Sherwood missed the window of opportunity with this one.

I am interested in Dolby Pro-Logic IIz (front height channels, see Brent Butterworth's article in the recent Sound and Vision or check out the following link.

http://bitstream.soundandvisionmag.com/blog/2009/03/onkyos-new-receiver-does-dolby-pro-logic-iiz.html

I checked the R-972 manual (thanks Noah & gonk) but did not see anything about it. I sent an email to Sherwood about the ability and future plans for DPLIIz and will forward their answer when I hear from them. It seems to me that S/N has an opportunity to come out ahead of the receiver pack (except for Onkyo) by adding this feature up front. Regardless of how good the Trinnov feature is, it will not be a huge selling point, at least initially. Audyssey is a much bigger name and room correction is mainly important to HT aficionados. But the general buying public is somewhat knowledgeable about surround formats and channels. Though more is not necessarily better (I am not that impressed with 7.1 vs 5.1), I am interested in the front height channels. Plus, since the amps and outputs are already there (side surrounds) it should be a fairly easy process.

We've had some discussion of this (http://ubb.outlawaudio.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/ubb/get_topic/f/54/t/000073.html) at Outlaw's forum while waiting for the Model 997 (which will use the R-972 platform). Even if they can add PLIIz via a firmware update later, it will be as an either/or with 7.1 because the hardware itself isn't 9.1. This is similar to what Onkyo is doing, with the rear surround outputs being re-assigned to height.

Plus, since the amps and outputs are already there (side surrounds) it should be a fairly easy process.Surely your joking...after all, it's been two years and an R-972 with just what was promised then has yet to emerge.

I am interested in Dolby Pro-Logic IIz (front height channels, see Brent Butterworth's article in the recent Sound and Vision or check out the following link.

http://bitstream.soundandvisionmag.com/blog/2009/03/onkyos-new-receiver-does-dolby-pro-logic-iiz.html

I checked the R-972 manual (thanks Noah & gonk) but did not see anything about it. I sent an email to Sherwood about the ability and future plans for DPLIIz and will forward their answer when I hear from them. It seems to me that S/N has an opportunity to come out ahead of the receiver pack (except for Onkyo) by adding this feature up front. Regardless of how good the Trinnov feature is, it will not be a huge selling point, at least initially. Audyssey is a much bigger name and room correction is mainly important to HT aficionados. But the general buying public is somewhat knowledgeable about surround formats and channels. Though more is not necessarily better (I am not that impressed with 7.1 vs 5.1), I am interested in the front height channels. Plus, since the amps and outputs are already there (side surrounds) it should be a fairly easy process.

Yamaha has been using height channels or as they call them "presence speakers" in their receivers since the late 1990's. People didn't rush out and buy Yamaha receivers based on presence speakers, so It's very unlikely that people will be rushing out to get a R-972 if it has the ability to add channels to the front soundstagestage like Yamaha receivers do.

I enjoy 7.1 in my theater, but as many people have stated in the PLIIz thread they are done adding speakers and see PLIIz as a gimmick to help make Dolby more money through licensing. The R-972 is an expensive receiver that will need to bring more to the table than PLIIz to get wallets to open, especially in this economy. Two years ago the R-972 would have been a great receiver when Room EQ was all the rave and the economy was doing well. Now that room EQ is a standard feature on pretty much all receivers the R-972 is late to the party and PLIIz is just Dolby's implementation of what Yamaha has been including in their receivers for the last 10 or 12 years.

I know I'm hard on Sherwood, but as a former loyal P-965 owner who lived through the promises and waited for the R-972 I'm not holding my breath.

Yahama has been using height channels or as they call them "presence speakers" in their receivers since the late 1990's. People didn't rush out and buy Yamaha receivers based on presence speakers, so It's very unlikely that people will be rushing out to get a R-972 if it has the ability to add channels to the front soundstagestage like Yamaha receivers do.

I enjoy 7.1 in my theater, but as many people have stated in the PLIIz thread they are done adding speakers and see PLIIz as a gimmick to help make Dolby more money through licensing. The R-972 is an expensive receiver that will need to bring more to the table than PLIIz to get wallets to open, especially in this economy. Two years ago the R-972 would have been a great receiver when Room EQ was all the rave and the economy was doing well. Now that room EQ is a standard feature on pretty much all receivers the R-972 is late to the party and PLIIz jusr Dolby's implementation of what Yamaha has been including in their receivers for the last 10 or 12 years.


The 965 was way overhyped to begin with and just OK when they finally worked the kinks out. I suspect they'll be some broken promises with the 972 as well.

I enjoy 7.1 in my theater, but as many people have stated in the PLIIz thread they are done adding speakers and see PLIIz as a gimmick to help make Dolby more money through licensing. I guess they don't really understand that PLIIx is an alternative way to use a 7.1 speaker system--it's not just about adding more speakers. Many such consumers were finding that it was difficult to use the two back outputs and speakers when their seating was close to the rear wall, so unless they used them for "zone 2" remote playback, they went unused. PLIIz gives tham another choice--two height speakers over a 5.1 system.

Now that room EQ is a standard feature on pretty much all receivers the R-972 is late to the party and PLIIz is just Dolby's implementation of what Yamaha has been including in their receivers for the last 10 or 12 years. Except that Yamaha's process synthesizes hall reflections--totally new sounds--whereas PLIIz only outputs signals carried in the original source. But I get your point. Yamaha was certainly way ahead of the curve here.

I guess they don't really understand that PLIIx is an alternative way to use a 7.1 speaker system--it's not just about adding more speakers. Many such consumers were finding that it was difficult to use the two back outputs and speakers when their seating was close to the rear wall, so unless they used them for "zone 2" remote playback, they went unused. PLIIz gives tham another choice--two height speakers over a 5.1 system.
This is true. Of the folks I know locally with surround installations, I think I'm the only one with rear surrounds. The others either can't swing the additional wiring drops or have room layouts that simply don't accommodate the rear surrounds (or both). From that standpoint, having an alternative that puts the speakers in the front instead of the back could be easier to implement for the people still running 5.1 systems.

As someone already running a 7.1 setup, I see PLIIz as something that I'm not likely to use for the foreseeable future. Aside from the need to add more speakers, there's also a lack of 9.1 processors on hand to accommodate it.

Except that Yamaha's process synthesizes hall reflections--totally new sounds--whereas PLIIz only outputs signals carried in the original source. But I get your point. Yamaha was certainly way ahead of the curve here.Yes Roger that was my point. Yamaha and Dolby are using the same concept and as you pointed out with different implementations.

Legairre

This is true. Of the folks I know locally with surround installations, I think I'm the only one with rear surrounds. The others either can't swing the additional wiring drops or have room layouts that simply don't accommodate the rear surrounds (or both). From that standpoint, having an alternative that puts the speakers in the front instead of the back could be easier to implement for the people still running 5.1 systems.

As someone already running a 7.1 setup, I see PLIIz as something that I'm not likely to use for the foreseeable future. Aside from the need to add more speakers, there's also a lack of 9.1 processors on hand to accommodate it. I currently run a 7.1 system and also don't see myself running a PLIIz system. Whether someone uses a pre-amp or a receiver like the R-972, Onkyo etc.., going to PLIIz would require adding a 2-channel amp to power the front height speakers and 2 height speakers that are voice matched with there other speakers. Between the extra amp channels and voice matched speakers PLIIz could be pretty expensive.

I use a Pioneer Elite receiver as a pre- amp and already have three Rotel amps to power my 7.1 system. The last thing I need is another amp in the rack and two more Monitor Audio speakers. Also I think the the Blu-ray standard only calls for 8 discrete channels so the height channels would have to be matrixed not discrete.

Yamaha has been using height channels or as they call them "presence speakers" in their receivers since the late 1990's. People didn't rush out and buy Yamaha receivers based on presence speakers, so It's very unlikely that people will be rushing out to get a R-972 if it has the ability to add channels to the front soundstagestage like Yamaha receivers do.

I agree that DPLIIz is not enough by itself to set it apart from the rest of the pack. My point was that the combination of DPLIIz with the Trinnov processing would be more potent than either alone. As far as Yamaha goes, I was selling AV in the early to late nineties when they were indeed way ahead of anyone else with surround processing. They would actually go into the actual venue, Carnegie Hall for example, to measure the space parameters then reproduce them in the receiver. I still consider the DSP-1 one of the most important products in the history of home theater.

The main problem with your point, though, is that Yamaha's technology is proprietary. First, unless it has the Dolby or DTS name (marketing) behind it it is simply a nice feature for salesmen to talk about (which I did). Second, since it is proprietary, other manufacturers can't/won't/aren't using it and it will not gain enough momentum with just one manufacturer.

I received an email from Jeff regarding the ability and future of DPLIIz. It was pretty much as I expected. He said the R-972 will come out the end of April or early May. He also said that DPLIIz will be a firmware upgrade in the future allowing either the surround amps or zone 2 preamp outs to be rededicated to the height channels. He also added that he is not sure whether the Trinnov will work with it.

I agree that Yamaha's DSP-1 was and is one of the most important products in HT. I also agree that Yamaha's processing is proprietary and Dolby's will have much greater market penetration due to the Dolby name. I guess where we have to agree to disagree is that people really want PLIIz. 7.1 has had a difficult time catching on with many people and debates are still going on here on AVS as well as other board as to it's usefullness (I find 7.1 and PLIIx for 5.1 a nice improvement). But even with 7.1 people like myself won't be going to PLIIz for the reasons I stated earlier and I'm a die hard HT fan, so I find it even more unlikely that average users will buy into front height channels.

I'm not saying PLIIz in the R-972 or any other receiver or pre-amp isn't a viable technology to improve sound. What I'm saying is that we've reached the point that most people are tired of buying amps and speakers. To me 5 or 7 properly placed speakers provide an incredible sound experience and we may have reached the point of diminishing returns going beyond that number. Not to even mention unless you have a dedicated room how many wives are going to allow their significant other to have 7 let along 9 speakers with two oddly placed speakers above the mains in their living or family room?

I just don't see the ability to do PLIIz even when combined with Trinnov as big selling point for the R-972. To me more doesn't mean better if it isn't something people intend to use. If Sherwood wants to bring people who have turned away from them, like myself back and gain new customers they need to make sure the R-972 puts the competition to shame with SQ that the others just can't match. This is a very competitive market and lots of receiver's sound good well below the $1799 price. To pony up that kind of cash it has to sound incredible. If word got out that the R-972 after two years sounds absolutely incredible then that will sell more R-972's than PLIIz ever will.

"He also added that he is not sure whether the Trinnov will work with it."

Maybe Trinnov can trump them w/o any extra channels at all.

If it can psychoacoustically raise and lower speakers, why not extract the noncorrelated ambient info and raise it for *all* of the speakers?

I also think the Dolby height channels should be located above the surrounds, not at the front where the elevation angle is limited.

I also think the Dolby height channels should be located above the surrounds, not at the front where the elevation angle is limited.
Why above the surrounds? There's typically a lot less space above a surround channel (which is more often than not already mounted on a wall and thus higher than a floor-standing or stand-mounted bookshelf front speaker), and folks using dipole surrounds already have some diffuse/radiated audio from there that would seem to lessen the impact of an extra channel. If you are going to relate a height channel to a specific "main" speaker, using the fronts seems to make sense to me.

Another option would be to set height speakers directly above the listening position, but that would require ceiling-mounted (or in-ceiling) speakers. Those will be at least as difficult to install as rear surrounds.

I just don't see the ability to do PLIIz even when combined with Trinnov as big selling point for the R-972. To me more doesn't mean better if it isn't something people intend to use. If Sherwood wants to bring people who have turned away from them, like myself back and gain new customers they need to make sure the R-972 puts the competition to shame with SQ that the others just can't match. This is a very competitive market and lots of receiver's sound good well below the $1799 price. To pony up that kind of cash it has to sound incredible. If word got out that the R-972 after two years sounds absolutely incredible then that will sell more R-972's than PLIIz ever will.

I agree with you that sound quality is absolutely the most important selling feature. But as an owner of a very nice-sounding B&K AVR307 I would like to have both, features and sound quality. My B&K sounds great and the customer service is OK. However, I don't have HDMI switching, video upconversion, or room correction. The next receiver I buy will have all of those. And if I can get one with even better room correction (Trinnov) and with at least the ability to add front heights if I decide to go that route, then I am better off in the long run. I doubt that the R-972 will have as much power as my AVR307. And it probably won't sound as good (all things being equal). But all things won't be equal. From years of selling AV equipment I know the room correction will make a huge difference. And I believe the Trinnov will prove to be the best room correction. The upscalability will be very welcome and the uncompressed audio via HDMI should be an improvement as well. As far as DPLIIz goes, I just want the ability to use it if I want.

I agree that we have probably reached a zenith in surround audio reproduction. That is why I am upgrading now. I just want to have the ability to add DPLIIz later if I want vs the B&K way of "buy a new receiver to upgrade".

Yes Roger that was my point. Yamaha and Dolby are using the same concept and as you pointed out with different implementations.I can't speak for Roger, but that didn't seem to be his point. It's not just differences in implementation; the very concept & intent are different as well. In fact, the only thing "same" is the use of two additional speakers up front. Otherwise:

PLIIz places the height speakers directly above the main L/R.
Yamaha places the presence speakers higher AND wider than the mains.

PLIIz extracts decorrelated ambience from the recording itself.
Yamaha generates reverb & early reflections that weren't originally in the recording.

PLIIz uses the additional speakers to give a sense of height.
Yamaha uses the additional speakers for room simulation (Hall, Club, Stadium, etc).

Regarding DPLIIz, we expect to be able to add the technology via download. Regarding integration with Trinnov, per my conversations with them, we have suggested that we add an additional option during amplifier set-up. Currently users can direct the rear center amps to 7.1 only, bi-amp, Room 2 only, or 7.1 switching to 5.1 plus stereo whenever Zone 2 is enabled. We expect to add a fifth option: DPLIIz. When that option is selected, Trinnov operation will be modified. Trinnov will find, EQ and time delay all channels, but the Height speakers will not be available for remapping.

Jeff

I can't speak for Roger, but that didn't seem to be his point. It's not just differences in implementation; the very concept & intent are different as well. In fact, the only thing "same" is the use of two additional speakers up front. Otherwise:

PLIIz places the height speakers directly above the main L/R.
Yamaha places the presence speakers higher AND wider than the mains.

PLIIz extracts decorrelated ambience from the recording itself.
Yamaha generates reverb & early reflections that weren't originally in the recording.

PLIIz uses the additional speakers to give a sense of height.
Yamaha uses the additional speakers for room simulation (Hall, Club, Stadium, etc).I guess I still see that as implementation. Two speakers placed at the front of the room, above the main speakers. Same concept just implemented differently through software and spacing. For example 7.1 is the still 7.1 whether you place the back speakers 4 or 6 feet apart and whether you implement it though DTS discrete or PLIIx or a true 7.1 mix. Either way it's still 7.1 just implemented differently. Same applies to the height speakers, same concept different implementation through spacing and software.

Same concept...You really believe that height channels and room simulation are the "same concept"? Even though original intent, speaker placement, channel content and signal processing are all different?

In that case, why doesn't the PLIIz FAQ ever talk about modelling a larger room, the way Yamaha does (even going so far as to name some of actual venues they measured for simulation). Or, why doesn't Yamaha doesn't ever refer to their additional speakers "height" speakers, if they're intending the same concept as PLIIz?

Don't get me wrong I understand that Yamaha is simulating a particular venue or environment and PLIIz isn't. I just see it as the "concept" of physically placing speakers above the fronts and then using software to "implement" that physical placement differently. The concept of placing speakers above the fronts is the same even if they are trying to achieve two different results through software implementation. That's why I say the implementation is different.