It might be easier to use height speakers than we suspect. I've seen many new homes built "surround ready" with 4 or 5 speakers in the ceiling. If the owner installs typical L/C/R speakers up front, PLIIz signals can drive one pair of them in front. If the owner also installs his own surround speakers, PLIIz can drive the 4 corner ceiling speakers in pairs, wired in series probably, to fill more of the room.

I apologize if this has been answered (and perhaps a new thread in theory would be good), but PL IIX has movie, music and game modes. Is PLIIZ going to be applicable to all modes and will the implementation be different for each mode?

"Why above the surrounds?"

It's for height.

As it is now, surround speaker height is a compromise between sounds that originate at ground level and ambiance,flyovers, etc.

Perhaps it could be done with a single speaker box w/a directional upfiring height driver.

But I like the idea of Trinnov doing it.

Or perhaps the psychoacoustics of that only works with front speakers.

"Why above the surrounds?"

It's for height.

As it is now, surround speaker height is a compromise between sounds that originate at ground level and ambiance,flyovers, etc.

Perhaps it could be done with a single speaker box w/a directional upfiring height driver.

But I like the idea of Trinnov doing it.

Or perhaps the psychoacoustics of that only works with front speakers.

This thread is so full of empty promises, Noah's last post echoed!













Yeah, I did this to bump the thread and make everyone excited that something happened...nothing did. Sorry. :D

I'm guessing they're going to miss the "some time in April" release date. The doubters have won...

Announcing a product in 07 and not delivering until after May 09 ( at least) is pretty pathetic and has completely shaken my confidence in this and any other SN product. Weak.

Maybe they are pairing it with the Auzentech card...

SO this is it. April 2009.
We can expect the 972 in less than three weeks.

I can hardly wait to read the first reviews.

Announcing a product in 07 and not delivering until after May 09 ( at least) is pretty pathetic and has completely shaken my confidence in this and any other SN product. Weak.Weak doesn't begin to describe it. :rolleyes:

It's almost May. This unit should be available any year now, no?

It's almost May. This unit should be available any year now, no?

I was told June will it ever see the day but they are not the only ones all the Hi Fi and Mid Fi have problems look at Classe, Krell....

Krell and Classe are small high end manufacturers, their products also typically are not revamped every 4 to 6 months like mainstream mid fi gear. Sherwood on the other hand is a fairly good size company that is also the OEM for many other brands. In the past I have heard claims that they made products for Denon and Marantz, I don't know if it's true, Insignia and KLH maybe ! When I think Sherwood I think low end, and vice versa.

I was told June

It wasn't stereojeff who told you June, was it? :D

When I think Sherwood I think low end, and vice versa.

There is the Sherwood line, which is low end, then the Sherwood Newcastle line, which is mid to high end. You can see they even have seperate sections on the main sherwoodusa site if you click the link:

http://www.sherwoodusa.com/


It is much like the difference between Pioneer and Pioneer Elite.

Sure I understand, it's kind of like Kia and Hyundai.

Sure I understand, it's kind of like Kia and Hyundai.

I usually don't post, and I'm not a fanboy, but you have made an excellent point, haha!

http://money.cnn.com/2009/01/08/autos/2009_car_of_the_year/index.htm

The wait sucks, but I'll be patient until this comes out and Outlaw releases the pre/pro.

At least you'll have some level of support, Sherwood support sucks. I had the original Hyundai Excel and believe me it sucked. The Genesis may be Car of the Year but it's still a Hyundai. The Hyundai received that award because of the value for the money no doubt, but please don't confuse it with an Infinity or Lexus.

I usually don't post, and I'm not a fanboy, but you have made an excellent point, haha!

http://money.cnn.com/2009/01/08/autos/2009_car_of_the_year/index.htm

The wait sucks, but I'll be patient until this comes out and Outlaw releases the pre/pro.

I think Sherwood stole Steve's lunch money. If the Trinnov processing works out it could be a great pre/pro regardless of how long it took to come out.

Sherwood better hurry up or they won't be the first to offer Trinnov:

http://www.trinnov.com/licences.php

Now than manufacturers can get the chip with Trinnov capability embedded designs based on this engine will roll out quickly, Sherwood obviously does not have the resources to launch products when promised.

Now than manufacturers can get the chip with Trinnov capability embedded designs based on this engine will roll out quickly, Sherwood obviously does not have the resources to launch products when promised.

Obviously. But people are assuming Trinnov will be better than Audyssey or other room correction technologies. Until it's available and people can compare, it's all speculation. Trinnov doesn't have DynamicEQ and Dynamic Volume features that the higher-end Audyssey receivers have.

But I agree, I would not buy a Sherwood product based on their complete mismanagement of the 972. I'll wait until a tier one manufacture offers Trinnov, if it's better than then-current room correction technology.

"Now than manufacturers can get the chip with Trinnov capability embedded designs based on this engine will roll out quickly"

When?

Less than two years.

Not what I'd call quick, but for all we know that will beat 972 :)

Yep, now that the 972 is passing the 2 yrs 4 month mark(not that I'm counting:D) his guess of less than 2 yrs will beat the 972.

Yep, now that the 972 is passing the 2 yrs 4 month mark(not that I'm counting:D) his guess of less than 2 yrs will beat the 972.

That's right, in two years when the 972 still hasn't arrived there will be dozens of processors with Trinnov if it's any good.

The 972 was the coolest thing in the world back in January of 2007, when we first started talking about it.

I guess we can officially state that it is not coming "sometime in April"...

Come on they still have 8hrs 31mins to make it by midnight EST.:D

I hear the hold-ups are because the initial production run has been entirely bought up by the Duke Nukem Forever design team!

Rumor has it that Fisher's rack system with Trinnov will arrive at dealers soon, beating the R972 to store shelves.

Steve, you might want to put a winking smiley after your post or some dummy might think you're serious...;)

Sorry, no offense intended. Hence the winking smiley at the end of my post...

I did a Google search for Fisher + Trinnov, and guess what? No hits. Lucky for me, as I would've had to slap the "dummy" label on myself. I was quite surprised, though, to find that Fisher was still actually in the audio business. I hadn't heard anything about them for years.

I agree with your point, about it being a coup if someone were to beat Sherwood to market with a Trinnov product. But, it would be such a fitting end to this fiasco...

yep so here we are in May... fool me once shame on you, fool me 2 years and 4 months...shame on me :P

I'm on the same boat for more than 2 years. I was waiting and waiting and waiting for it to come out.... 2 years after the initial talk, I have to thank them... cuz' 2 months ago I just pick up a Marantz 8001 and saved myself quite a few dollars if I was to buy the Marantz in 2007 :D I had gave up on them and figured that if it takes them this long and still not able to produce it... Just imagine how long it will take for them to fix your problem/issues if there are some...

Al,

where do I get this Fisher rack system. I have a bunch of K-tel records I need to play.

It's at Walmart right next to the Teac rack systems and Sherwood R972. OK that was mean. Fisher and Teac would never allow Walmart to carry their rack systems:D

you know the scary thing....my dad actually has a fisher rack system, from sears, and it still works.....

While I appreciate the Paul Masson approach here on the one hand, this has gone on long enough. Do they lack the technical expertise to make a functional unit? Is it a supply issue? Do they need more Chinese slave labour chained to a workbench? What gives?

An honest word, even if it were to admit they've finally given up having monkeys run this project and will finally hire humans, would go a long way to keep me waiting -- which I've been doing.

I'm pretty patient, but this has been so pathetic and amateur I suppose it is unrealistic to imagine these jokers at Newcastle could possibly get it right at this point.

I am of the opinion that Trinnov is not outdated because Trinnov Optimizer is 3D acoustic field remapping to retain the spatiality of the original.
You can achieve this 13.000$ goal only with Sherwood Newcastle R-972 and an easy 5.1 speakers configuration. :)
Latest audissey dsx announcement is audio gimmick. They add speakers to try to convince that this is the way to have more spatial resolution. Instead this is the way to bother your room acoustic with more reflections. :rolleyes:
About the delay of SN R-972 you can trust to Jeff's words "These receivers are complicate pieces of hardware".
Perhaps you are not aware of the volume scaling issue that Gene della Sala, president Audioholics have discovered plagues some products as the Denon AVP, Onkyo receivers and the Pioneer. :(
Some electronics components of audissey (not dsp) are faulty but manufacturers are selling these receivers in the shops. :mad:
I had my say. But after several months of press stillness Jeff what are the R-972 progress?

Time to change the title of this thread.

"Sherwood Newcastle R-872 & R-972 HDMI 1.3 receivers, please do not masturbate your brain."

Lmao rofl

Latest audissey dsx announcement is audio gimmick. They add speakers to try to convince that this is the way to have more spatial resolution. Instead this is the way to bother your room acoustic with more reflections. :rolleyes:

Better gimmick than vaporware.

"They add speakers to try to convince that this is the way to have more spatial resolution. Instead this is the way to bother your room acoustic with more reflections."

By that argument we'd be listening to a single mono speaker.

Or no speakers, to get rid of the reflections entirely.

Noah you know that a limit of multichannel sound recording is phantom image.
They appear in different directions and are at the origin of contradictory spatial information.
So you have a source sound, this sound is reverberated on all channels. The corresponding phantom image is reproduced by all loudspeakers with different intensity and heared with less punctuality because the apparent width of the phantom source become larger.
For example stereoplay has 2 channels and only 1 phantom image exist.
Instead when 5 channels are active they simultaneously reproduce 10 phantoms images etc

The Most Advanced A/V Receiver on the Planet: Sherwood Newcastle's R-972
What is the physical nature of sound ? It is the acoustic field.
Trinnov optimizer is a revolutionary step forward the control of the acoustic field. For example. In the concert hall three sound sources create an acoustic field in the middle of which the listeners are placed. In the auditorium, the acoustic field captured during the concert is perfectly reproduced because listeners are placed in the middle of the same acoustic field as the concert.

The most advanced Kool-Aid on the planet: Sherwood Newcastle's R-972

Seriously though, I had the P-965 and it had all kinds of bugs, though it sounded great. It's been nearly 2 1/2 yrs since they announced this thing. If it takes this long to get it out the door, we can imagine the bugs it will have, and based on the P-965 how well they will respond to them.

All the advanced features in the world don't mean a thing if it doesn't sound great. After nearly 2 1/2 years it can't just sound good. It has to completely blow everything else away. Trinnov has to deliver a sound experience that is FAR above anything else on the market. The addition of Trinnov, can't be subtle it has to be VERY noticeable(in a good way) that a person says "wow I've got to have one of these". IMO anything else and it's a 2 1/2 year failed experiment.

All that about revolutionary step forward etc... is just pure marketing hype. They need to produce the product and have it deliver absolutely outstanding SQ and then the marketing hype becomes reality. Until then it's just Sherwood and Outlaw drumming up business and keeping people hanging on.

We've been reading about the revolutionary Outlaw 997(Sherwood clone) and R-972 from Sherwood for way too long. I'm ready to hear it, I've already been through all the sales material.

Seriously though, I had the P-965 and it had all kinds of bugs, though it sounded great. It's been nearly 2 1/2 yrs since they announced this thing. If it takes this long to get it out the door, we can imagine the bugs it will have, and based on the P-965 how well they will respond to them.
We can imagine quite a bit, but anything we imagine is baseless theorizing as long as the product remains unavailable. It could be a horrifying mass of show-stopper bugs, or it could be a nicely refined product. We don't know anything yet, so either claim is currently unfounded speculation. Personally, I don't know what to expect yet - I'm going to wait for actual hardware to arrive and people to provide first-hand feedback before I try to decide what the situation is.
We've been reading about the revolutionary Outlaw 997(Sherwood clone) and R-972 from Sherwood for way too long. I'm ready to hear it, I've already been through all the sales material.
I am certainly disappointed at the string of delays that the R-972 has endured, and I'm as curious as anybody to see what this platform will actually be capable of, but I'd point out that we've only been reading about the Model 997 since last October - they never said anything about building a product on this platform prior to that, and they said then that it would be 2009 before it was going to be available (although they'd been pointing toward the first part of the year at that time).

SN R-972 with Trinnov Optimizer: I want to believe :D

I am certainly disappointed at the string of delays that the R-972 has endured, and I'm as curious as anybody to see what this platform will actually be capable of, but I'd point out that we've only been reading about the Model 997 since last October - they never said anything about building a product on this platform prior to that, and they said then that it would be 2009 before it was going to be available (although they'd been pointing toward the first part of the year at that time).Very true, Outlaw had not(as far as I know) mentioned the 997 until last October. Sherwood has been promoting the 972 for nearly 2 1/2 yrs.

It sure feels like longer than since last October for the 997

This is an incredible saga.

It sure feels like longer than since last October for the 997

This is an incredible saga.

Yep even when it does appear I would buy Trinnov only when in another brand name because IMO Sherwood/Newcastle will simply not be around in a few years time. They will only just be starting to hurt now and will be starting to lose customers en mass because they simply cannot compete. What a mess and all due to their own mis-management. Blaming it on bugs is laughable, I am in the software industry and the reasons given so far just go to show that they are completely clueless. Clueless companies do not last long.

These guys should stick to building amplifiers and contract manufacturing, they are hopeless at software development which is what AVR's are now essentially turning into.

The 972 prototype/demo unit did not even function properly when last displayed publicly... sometime around January or February. How can they recover after over 2.5 years of unkept promises. I predict Inkel will sell Sherwood off before the 972 even hits dealer's showrooms.

The 972 prototype/demo unit did not even function properly when last displayed publicly... sometime around January or February. How can they recover after over 2.5 years of unkept promises. I predict Inkel will sell Sherwood off before the 972 even hits dealer's showrooms.

Got to agree with you. Incompetence on this scale gets what it deserves in the end.

Sherwood clearly has an incompetent team of designers, it took them forever to correct the 965 problems and now I think they are in over their heads. You just know it's going to be buggy when and if it comes out. Has anyone seen a working example of the 972 ? They certainly have some balls to call it "the most sophisticated receiver on the planet" , it's vaporware until it actually exists.

They certainly have some balls to call it "the most sophisticated receiver on the planet" , it's vaporware until it actually exists.

I think that anyone at Sherwood that had any balls remaining has had them removed by the board by now.

for those stilll in contact with StereoJeff (at this point I really can't blame the guy for avoiding this forum LOL, honestly feel bad for a guy who tries to keep the consumer updated and informed, but looks like he's been hung out by his company) what is the latest info... think the last we heard was April relaease and that was firm-ish... what are we hearing in May ?

At this point it is moot. Let's say they do actually get it out the door. if there are any issues with it and I mean any it will be the death nell of the product, who in their right mind would trust the company to come up with any fixes in a timely fashion, they would go broke before you saw them. This is the major credibility problem the major credibility problem the company now has.

Take a look at all the features that they were adding in, every other company has released them some more than 1.5 years ago now. The only feature they had that was different was Trinnov and they did not write that it was done by Trinnov themselves they just had top call the appropriate routines.

Look deeper at what is happening and you will see that purchasing anything from them is a very risky proposition. You are relying on a company that in over 2.5 years has been unable to get a product to market where their part of the deal was to just link other peoples products together, pretty sad if you ask me.

My only interest in Newcastle now is to see whether Trinnov is as good as they say it is and then wait for another manufacturer to pick it it and release a receiver using it.

They had so many problems with SNAP EQ which is a crude parametric, I can't imagine them ever getting something as sophisticated as Trinnov right.

Room correction is still very much in it's infancy, by this time this year others will have announced their partnership with Trinnov and we'll (not me, you) still be waiting for the 972. It serves them right for proclaiming to be high end and cutting edge after a turd like the 965. That product wasn't right from the start but they released it just like they'll do with the 972. I didn't realize I was a SN beta tester until AFTER I bought a 965, that's what you'll be as an early adopter of the 972.

Yep, best bet is to wait for another manufacturer to implement Trinnov (if it's any good) or like Steve said you'll be a 972 beta tester.

pred1973, I'm kind of like you. I won't touch it either, but it's a train wreck and you know how hard those are to look away from. I'm REALLY hard on Sherwood, but I'd hate to see them go under and have people loose their jobs. There's a lot of people at Sherwood who had nothing to do with this mess and I never want to see anyone out of work, so I do hope they get their act together and the 972. This has been a crazy ride and even though I won't touch one I want to see how it turns out.

OK, enough mister nice guy, back to my usual Sherwood bashing. May is more than half over and still no news? Chances are we'll have that micro implanted ultra 3-d, lossless transmission straight to the cortex before the 972 arrives.

Enough already.

At this point, if I was Jeff I wouldn't tell you guys even if I knew.

Noah we're just having a little fun. As you can see by pred1973's and my post before yours we had both been sympathetic to Sherwoods problems. Of course then I jumped on them, but if you read my post it was all in good fun between pred1973 and myself.

There has to be someone out there taking bets
which will make it to the market first??????

Sherwood Newcastle R972
or
Frank Zappa & The Mothers Roxy & Elsewhere DVD.

Warmest regards on both projects

See, here pred1973 and I go and try to make nice comments and Trendmonger goes and starts it all over again:D. OK the gloves are off again let the fun began.

The latest release date is the end of may

BUYSED55

The latest release date is the end of may

BUYSED55

You're funny. No really, May ? May-be not !

See, here pred1973 and I go and try to make nice comments and Trendmonger goes and starts it all over again:D. OK the gloves are off again let the fun began.

Hey I have nothing but the best of interests for both of these eagerly awaited projects.
Both have been taking a considerable amount of time.
The Trinnov in the R972 in the literal sense truely is a pioneer effort and I applaud Sherwood Newcastle
for boldly going forward.

A a consumer I have come to grips with accepting these as works in progress
and I view my energies in a positive way while making light of the mater of my fanatical want.

They will be ready when they are ready.:)

Sherwood does not have the manpower or the resources for a successful launch. They may O.E.M. for the big boys but they ARE NOT anything like Denon, Marantz, or dare I say even Sony. You think the wait's been long just imagine how long the software patches will take if their track record is any indication.

Originally Posted by Stereojeff
As I read through these posts I think there are three issues: why is there no buzz about this receiver; what's the process when and if something breaks; will it work correctly out of the box.

All three seem to be requests for reassurance.

I can offer this:

1. We are very good at manufacturing audio gear.
2. We care about performance as much as any reader on this forum.
3. We recognize our obligations and stand behind our products.

Those who participated on this site and elsewhere with our '65 series know well that we upgraded the units, added features and even gave hardware to our early adopters to enable the new tools. I'm not aware of any manufacturer who has offered this level of support.

I can also add that we are often late with our branded equipment. It can be hard to find as we have little retail distribution. No matter how much testing we do in advance, some bugs will make it to market.

For additional reassurance, each of you knows how to reach the guy at the top of the Sherwood pyramid...and he cares about the outcome.

Jeff

Originally Posted by Stereojeff
The problems are mostly housekeeping. There's a micro controller and submicro controller that translate user commands into executables. Units as complicated as a modern day AVR require a lot of sorting out.

As to the attendees, many of our more prominent journalists heard our demonstrations. Off the top of my head, Mark Fleischmann, Tom Norton, Danny Kumin to name only a few

Jeff.

They say that everything comes to those who wait! ;)

The Outlaw version of the Sherwood R-972 supposedly will allow the user to plug in a laptop to the USB and see the before and after room correction curves. Supposedly, the user will also be able to make changes to what the room correction software is doing. Until Denon or Onkyo allow me to plug in my laptop and monitor what it is doing (Without jumping through hoops and paying another $300 for the professional software), I'm sitting on the sidelines.

I also think some people need to chill with their bad mouthing of Sherwood. It is starting to look like a personal axe to grind. They haven't released the product yet. Your posts about possible bugs and bad manufacture response are more speculative than those that think this product is the best since sliced bread.

Maybe these posts should just be closed until the product is released?

If you notice the bad mouthing is from people like myself who have lived through the P-965 problems and there were a lot of them. We're speaking from personal experience with a Sherwood product and after a 2 1/2 year wait see no reason why this will be any different.

While the P-965 was an absolutely great sounding pre-amp it had bugs that have never been fixed. The bugs and bad manufacturing we speak of is from past experience with Sherwood we're not just making stuff up, we lived through it.

I understand you're saying give them a break and wait and see. That's a bit hard when you've been through the P-965, problems and promises that never came. Add to that a 2 1/2 year delay for the 972 and it's s a bit hard to give them the benefit of the doubt.

I have noticed. Your not the one who came to mind.

Talking about your past experience is fine. But, that was how long ago? Projecting that onto a new project is a bit of a stretch. What you just said sounds a lot like a personal axe to grind.

I'm done.

Your entitled to your opinion, but I'm willing to bet it would change if you had the same experience.

I think Jeff's comments have been very honest. Especially, the quote about that there might be some bugs that make it to market. I am not saying this as an insult to Sherwood but actually a compliment of his honesty! Being an installer we've dealt with practically all different brands of receivers except for some of the boutique brands. I spend a good amount of time testing equipment to make sure it works with other equipment we carry.

One thing I can tell you is they ALL have bugs/ issues/ design flaws of some kind. Let's run down a list off the top of my head.

Yamaha 65 series - no assignable audio inputs (try using a wii with component connections, you need to buy an additional adapter). HDMI Issues with certain equipment.
Yamaha 63 series - clipped BTB and WTW. HDMI issues with certain equipment.
Yamaha X800/x900 series - HDMI issues with certain equipment, some ethernet issues, lack some video processing controls.
Onkyo (Integra) - runs hot, some HDMI issues with certain equipment, some firmware bugs.
HK - Crossover problems, HDMI issues with certain equipment
Marantz - Can't use EQ if it has to decode one of the new lossless formats. HDMI issues with certain equipment.
Sherwood Newcastle (772/872)- Takes forever (~10sec) to lock onto an audio signal with HDMI. So you get a picture but no sound for about 10 sec. Can't disable video processing in some models. On the good side - the ONLY receivers that worked with every piece of equipment through HDMI that we tested but as stated slow on the audio locking on.
Pioneer (and Elite) - HDMI issues with some equipment.

Now all these have various good qualities as well.

Did I miss any major brands besides Sony? I haven't worked with any of the newer Sony receivers. I could go on with higher end receivers and pre-amps and none are perfect -Anthem, B&K, Theta, Lexicon, NAD, etc. Some of the higher end brands don't have HDMI yet and still have issues!

This is why the forum exists, for people to share their experiences and opinions. You have to pick the products that work best for your situation. Unless you have identical equipment to someone else it is quite possible your experiences will differ.

As far as this thread, I look forward to the 972. I've seen demos of Trinnov (not the sherwood demo) and it has quite the potential in rooms which do not have ideal placements and might be one of the bigger break throughs in the room correction systems. I hope Sherwood can pull it off.

IMHO, Sherwood's biggest error was announcing this product before it was ready to ship! I bet they won't do that again:-)

Bob

[QUOTE=Legairre;16504297]If you notice the bad mouthing is from people like myself who have lived through the P-965 problems and there were a lot of them. We're speaking from personal experience with a Sherwood product and after a 2 1/2 year wait see no reason why this will be any different.

While the P-965 was an absolutely great sounding pre-amp it had bugs that have never been fixed. The bugs and bad manufacturing we speak of is from past experience with Sherwood we're not just making stuff up, we lived through it.QUOTE]

I also lived through 965 problems but have a totaly different opinion about sherwood than you. I think they did a commendable job to try and iron out as many bugs as they could and got about 90% done correctly.
For a electronic manufacture to do as many firmware updates as they did is just a reflection of their commitment to try and set things right. I still have the 965 and it has never missed a beat.

I would be very interested to know what bugs you are talking about that are still present after the last firmware update. The manufacturing or build quality of the unit is fantastic, you must of got a real dud one.

Eric,
I replaced my 965 in November 2007, so if there we're updates after that I'm not aware of them. My unit had these bugs since day one right up until I sold it the end of 2007. My 965 still had the following problems that I had contacted Sherwood technical support about in the summer of 2007 and even sent the unit in and it came back with the same problems. The repair log simply stated that they updated the firmware (BTW to the exact same version I already had on the machine). Which of course did not resolve the issues.

I lived with these issues and tried to resolve them with other users in the 965 firmware thread and finally got fed up and sent it to Sherwood.

I can't tell you which version of the firmware it was, because I no longer have the 965. Here's the bugs I sent the unit in to be fixed that as of November 2007 still existed. I remember the bugs very well because they bugged the hell out of me(no pun intended)



Subwoofer was always 6dB too low after auto setup. Myself and several others in the 965 firmware thread had confirmed this with AVIA calibration DVD and Radio Shack SPL meter, taking into account how much the Radio shack meter is off by with the correction tables from hometheatershack.com



Would not recognize a stereo 2.0 PCM signal if switching from DD 5.1 and unit was set to AUTO switching. It would stay in DD 5.1 if CD player was connected through the optical cable even though the source was 2 channel PCM stereo from a CD. If the CD player was connected through L/R analogs it switched fine. For some reason it thought the digital/optical cable meant it was receiving DD 5.1 when it was receiving 2 channels stereo PCM. It had to be switched manually.



When I switched to using large surrounds, setting the surrounds to large should have turn off bass management and let them play full range. It worked fine for the fronts, but the surrounds would not get a full range signal. When I bought an Outlaw ICBM to manage the bass and no longer used the bass management from the 965 everything worked as it should and the surrounds when set to large had plenty of bass and played a full range signal.

EDIT: Now that I think of it there was also an issue with the SNAP EQ and mic, but I'm not sure if it was fixed after I sold mine. Some of you guys who either still have yours or kept it longer might remember

Subwoofer was always 6dB too low after auto setup....



Would not recognize a stereo 2.0 PCM signal if switching from DD 5.1 and unit was set to AUTO switching....



When I switched to using large surrounds, setting the surrounds to large should have turn off bass management and let them play full range....



With all your previous whining and griping I was expecting something more substantial than these issues.

If the sub is 6db down after auto calibration turn it up 6db manually! Not switching to 2 channel properly after listening to 5.1? Again, surely the receiver had a button to press to override that horrible error. No full-range for your rear channels. Well aren't you special! I wish I had the opportunity to consider running full-range in the rear! If I did have the opportunity, though, I would want this fixed as well. But I find it hard to believe that Sherwood refused to fix that.

When I finally got around to switching from S-video to component with my B&K AVR307 I found that the component output did not work. I sent it back to B&K for a fix and lo and behold, it was returned with updated software but still had the same problem. Did I whine and cry and write bad things about them on obscure internet forums? No, I called them back and explained the problem. They paid for the 2nd shipment (both ways), fixed the problem, and sent it back in a brand new box! As much as I love the build/sound quality of B&K and appreciate their wonderful customer service, they are sadly way behind on features (no room correction yet).

Having sold AV for 7 years (ten years ago) I have seen plenty of design flaws and bugs. One of the worst menu systems/software I ever saw was in the Proceed PAV pre/pro. We sold those for $5,000- with no Dolby Digital or DTS at all! THX was the major tweak. But it sounded awesome! 90% of customers, however, didn't care at all about sound/build quality or menus. They just wanted the cheapest receiver out there. I finally learned to just suck it in and sell the Bose Lifestyles instead of wasting my time and breath on educating people about better quality. But I digress. Now, we have more surround formats than we know what to do with. When was the last time you read about outboard DACs (Digital to Analog converters for the younger readers out there)? Room correction built in? Heck we used to sell the 5-channel analog Audio Control equalizers for that. (and we liked it!)

Receivers now have advanced room-correction, incredible surround processing, and analog to HDMI video/1080p upscaling. We are basically discussing receivers that have computers built in- for less than $2,000! Yes, there will be software bugs. There will be people that aren't happy with menus or features. It will not sound as good as ______________ (fill in the blank). Read a Car and Driver comparo between the BMW 3 series, Lexus, Mercedes, etc. One of them comes out on top but none are perfect in every category.

Lets wait until it comes out and we get to play with it before we beat up on it.

With all your previous whining and griping I was expecting something more substantial than these issues.

If the sub is 6db down after auto calibration turn it up 6db manually! Not switching to 2 channel properly after listening to 5.1? Again, surely the receiver had a button to press to override that horrible error. No full-range for your rear channels. Well aren't you special! I wish I had the opportunity to consider running full-range in the rear! If I did have the opportunity, though, I would want this fixed as well. But I find it hard to believe that Sherwood refused to fix that. Come on now you wrote all that and completely forgot about the SNAP EQ mic issues too. We all sent our units in and paid an extra $100 for that feature that didn't work properly and didn't get fixed. You also forgot that I sent the unit in to have these things fixed as requsted by Sherwood and it was shipped back with nothing more than a firmware upgrade to the exact same firmware I already had on it.

Sure the sub 6dB and 2.0/5.1 are minor issues, but the large rears setting and the SNAP EQ are not minor. These are the bugs that DIDN'Tt get fixed, but there are years of bugs myself and other lived with that were fixed over the course of those years.

At some point you have to just say enough is enough. I got mine in 2003 and had four years of bug after bug after bug. Everything from static pops when switching sources to bass management not engaging and all the other problems everyone else had in the 965 firmware thread.

By comparison the Denon 3300 I had back in 2000-2003 didn't have a single bug worth starting thread over, the Rotel I had before the Sherwood sounded lousy, but worked great and the Pioneer Elite I have now is also bug free.

The Sherwood is and was full of bugs and as someone else said had we known we'd be beta testers we would have passed. If other companies can release a product without 4 years or problems why can't Sherwood.

Consumers shouldn't just accept that it's OK to pay $1500 and have it pretty much broken when we bought it. If a car had the number of problems that the 965 had it would meet the requirements of the lemon law. So we're just supposed to plunk down our money and accept years of bugs? Come on we're buying a product we should get what we paid for.

The one thing I've always said about the 965 if it sounded great. I've never complained about the sound, but the quality is another story. It's just very hard to be optimistic about the 972 when they had all the problems with the 965 and 2 1/2 years of delays doesn't instill confidence

Legairre,

Sorry for past problems but this is a 972 thread and it's really getting old hoping to hear some news and just finding more gripes about past models.

That goes for everyone.

Noah, when your right you're right. I'll keep the topic to the 972. Unfortunately I don't think there's anything new. May is almost over has anyone heard anything?

Yes...let's keep this on topic. Here is the date of the first post 01-11-07, 07:36 AM. :eek: The problem is not the posters, the problem is Sherwood-Newcastle. It doesn't even pass the Giggle Test. +2yr 5mo, 1800 posts about vaporware and someone is complaining about staying on topic? The topic is What the Heck is going on at Sherwood;)

Sherwood deserves every bit of bad press and to have every gripe aired publically on this forum. Two and a half years and still no working example ? You can sugar coat it all you like but they suck as a company. As an early adopter of the 965 I contacted them about the problem with switching from PCM to 5.1 and they acted both as if it didn't exist and that I didn't know what I was talking about. What was most annoying was that others had mentioned it here and they acted as if they had never heard about it. Another irritating bug was that occasionally it would switch back to 5.1 and only the center channel was present. Again Sherwood maintained that it was in my setup and continued to BS me about the product's flaws. If Inkel was really serious about their AV division this product would have been out a long time ago, but they are not. Their bread and butter is telecommunications, AV is just a sideline. Sherwood has been bought and sold several times in the last decade, it won't be long until Inkel dumps them too.

Steve, Thanks for staying on topic:)

Sure the sub 6dB and 2.0/5.1 are minor issues

No, that is a large issue. That is why I didn't buy one. For HT, the Sub is almost as important as the Front and Center speakers.

"Sherwood deserves every bit of bad press and to have every gripe aired publically on this forum."

No argument there, but we're well into the fifth season of gripe re-runs.

"Sherwood deserves every bit of bad press and to have every gripe aired publically on this forum."

No argument there, but we're well into the fifth season of gripe re-runs.

Sorry Noah, but you seem to be cutting them WAY TO MUCH SLACK. Sherwood doesn't care about us! At least the gripes are more current then there vaporware receiver.

No, that is a large issue. That is why I didn't buy one. For HT, the Sub is almost as important as the Front and Center speakers.

How was this a large issue a ten year old could of worked out a work around. all you had to do after snap eq did its thing was to go to channel trim and raise it 6 db, and from memory after one of the firmware updates it was only
out by 3db. As for the 2.0 dd all you have to do is switch it over manually as auto wont change over automatically, big deal.
Not to sure about using large surrounds turns off bass management as i use paradigm studio 20s all way round in a 7.1 system, but if you are talking about the old bass management system,that had changed in the last firmware update they did, where you can change from having global speaker size to singular speaker size.
It just amazes me how people who dont even have owned the unit or have used it before can have such a strong opinion about it.
If you have a look at all the other forum topics on amps and receivers i dont think there is one without someone posting about some sort of problem that it has. no matter how much the it costs.
No matter how quirky the 965 is the absolute number one thing is how it sounds and that to me is more important than any small short comings it might have, there is no way i would buy a receiver that was perfect in implementing every process but sounded like crap and I'm sure a lot of people are in the same boat.
Why pred1973 and Legairre are even posting on this forum is beyond me as they have already stated they wouldn't even touch it with a ten foot pole.
I for one am looking forward to the R-972 and hopefully all this waiting is because they are trying to implement a unit which is less troublesome than the previous one.

"you seem to be cutting them WAY TO MUCH SLACK."

It has nothing to do with them.

But what was I thinking, I must be crazy thinking any one would heed my request.

I do think the issues listed are no worse than other manufacturers. Whethr they affect a given user varies depending on the users configuration.

Auto set up/ auto EQ systems not getting everything right, this is the most common problem and EVERY type of set up/ EQ has had probles. I didn't even list that in my problem list as it so room dependent that you can't blame the algorithm each EQ uses. A LOT of things can trick these systems. We have been able to do a better job manually than all these systems ie MCACC, YPAO, Audyssey, ARC, HK EZ set/EQ, Snap, etc.

BTW, I forgot Denon in my previous - HDMI problems, IR problems, amp problems.

Bob

Cool Products & Dolby's Booth at CES 2008

Craig: Well, I tell you what. I had a chance to go down to the Sherwood booth and talk to Jeff Hipp of Sherwood prior to the show. They are introducing an AV receiver called Sherwood Newcastle, it will be out this summer. It has a room optimizer mode from a company called Trinnov. I didn't get the chance to hear it and they were actually showing an industrial application of it and they're going to take the industrial application, obviously, synthesize it into a consumer type of experience. But I will tell you that John, our (dolby) producer, went down there and listen to it and came back...

Jack: He was telling me about this.

Craig: He was incredibly floored by the technology.

Jack: Yes, absolutely, it's like a $15, 000 professional room tuning piece of kit that they're putting inside a consumer grade AV receiver. It just sounds amazing.

Craig: For the people who can't position their center channel properly, either behind the TV, above the TV or directly underneath it, it really solves that problem of "How do we get dialog to really be focused on the screen itself?"

Jack: Absolutely.

Craig: Then the other thing that John told me about which is you can actually move the surround field around to fit your listening position in the room.

Jack: That's cool.

Craig: So if you're not directly on access with that monitor, apparently through this room calibration mode, you can move the surround field back and forth.

Jack: That is cool. So that's an AV receiver from Sherwood, the Sherwood Newcastle. Very cool.

Craig: Yes, and it's suppose to come this summer.

Jack: Oh, man, that is cool. I may have to buy a new one.

Craig: It'll interesting to watch and listen to.




The first demo of R-972 with trinnov optimizer was at CES 2008 and the first official release date in a show is summer 2008. All internet press news reporting march 2008 were wrong.
08 october 08: chuck Back (industry member) in accord with SN opened "The Official Sherwood Newcastle R-972 With Trinnov Optimizer Thread". At this date they have a complete pre-production line. The release date now is the end of december (optimistic).
28 october 08: jeff discover a significant problem with pre-production r-972. The center channel did not play (only) when trinnov optimizer is turned on.*
CES 2009 R-972 was there: this is an original report

CES LAS VEGAS 2009 - Le reportage HOME CINEMA FR

Le nouveau modèle 972 de Sherwood est le fleuron de la gamme. Disposant d'une amplification 7x100 W, l'attention a plus été portée sur la qualité que sur la puissance brute. C'est ainsi qu'il atteint un seuil de <0,02% de THD sous un SNR de 105 dB sur la plage 20Hz-20 kHz. La section vidéo est gérée par une puce HQV Reon.
Particularité de ce modèle, il intègre un système de calibration Trinnov très avancé. Assimilable au travail effectué par Tact, le système utilise un micro (fourni) à quatre cellules. Il permet l'analyse acoustique de la pièce et l'exécution des corrections nécessaires. Ce système a été utilisé dans les studios de la 20th Centuy Fox. Fonction intéressante, il est possible d'avoir deux calibrations totalement différentes : une Home Cinema pour coller au plus proche des recommandations SMPTE - ITU et une autre pour la Hi-Fi.


CES 2009: Release date now is the end of march.

09 april 2009: Alan Axiom "we're now assured of a "firm" mid-May release date for the Sherwood Newcastle R-972".

The latest release date is the end of may

My thought. This unit have been delayed a lot but
1) this delay is not 2 1/2 years.
2)* These things will happen!
3) Trinnov is the biggest thing in HT and it is well worth waiting.

The only question is if you are aware of r-972 with trinnov and internet capabilities. I don't think so.

The product was announced in '07 therefore it IS 2.5 years late, don't sugar coat it.

Steve perhaps you are asking audissey and faroudja Torino inside r-972.
But I am sorry SN can't meet your request.:D
So the delay is less than one year.

BUYSED 55

The product was announced in '07 therefore it IS 2.5 years late, don't sugar coat it.

And when it was announced in January '07 (a mock-up was on display at CES '07, and a somewhat blurry photo was posted here at AVS), a release date of August '07 was stated by SN. If it was wrong, it was wrong, but it wasn't the reporters that got it wrong. They went with what the company told them.

So, it's not quite 2 years late, but the product was certainly announced 2.5 years ago.

There was shortage of faroudja torino and SN can't come first in 2007 with audissey and hd audio. The video processor was on the hdmi board. Changing the layout of this board was time consuming and they need to differentiate their products. This is their marketing strategie. So they chose to change R-972 technical specification with trinnov and reon. :)
I think no one is reading this r-972 forum for HD audio or audissey now. Aren't you?
So I continue to uphold this thesis.
R-972 delay is less one year. :p

BUYSED55

How was this a large issue a ten year old could of worked out a work around. all you had to do after snap eq did its thing was to go to channel trim and raise it 6 db, and from memory after one of the firmware updates it was only
out by 3db. As for the 2.0 dd all you have to do is switch it over manually as auto wont change over automatically, big deal.
Not to sure about using large surrounds turns off bass management as i use paradigm studio 20s all way round in a 7.1 system, but if you are talking about the old bass management system,that had changed in the last firmware update they did, where you can change from having global speaker size to singular speaker size.
It just amazes me how people who dont even have owned the unit or have used it before can have such a strong opinion about it.
If you have a look at all the other forum topics on amps and receivers i dont think there is one without someone posting about some sort of problem that it has. no matter how much the it costs.
No matter how quirky the 965 is the absolute number one thing is how it sounds and that to me is more important than any small short comings it might have, there is no way i would buy a receiver that was perfect in implementing every process but sounded like crap and I'm sure a lot of people are in the same boat.
Why pred1973 and Legairre are even posting on this forum is beyond me as they have already stated they wouldn't even touch it with a ten foot pole.
I for one am looking forward to the R-972 and hopefully all this waiting is because they are trying to implement a unit which is less troublesome than the previous one.

1st of all, if you change the volume up or down to compensate for Sherwood issue with the LFE, now you are affecting the redirected bass volume to the sub. To me that is a BIG issue. As I remember, it was never fixed ;) and if it was, it took 2 years. What a mess:(

"you seem to be cutting them WAY TO MUCH SLACK."

It has nothing to do with them.

But what was I thinking, I must be crazy thinking any one would heed my request.

LOL...Please, who are you? Sorry, I don't get it. Nothing is happening with the new receiver. So we are speaking about issues with SN. If SN comes out with new info then we will talk about that;) In till then, easy cowboy;)

There was shortage of faroudja torino and SN can't come first in 2007 with audissey and hd audio. The video processor was on the hdmi board. Changing the layout of this board was time consuming and they need to differentiate their products. This is their marketing strategie. So they chose to change R-972 technical specification with trinnov and reon. :)
I think no one is reading this r-972 forum for HD audio or audissey now. Aren't you?
So I continue to uphold this thesis.
R-972 delay is less one year. :p

BUYSED55

The thread is 2.5 years old. They still have not delivered a unit. They will probably be the last manufacture to deliver a HDMI 1.3 receiver. I think there is a good chance that you will see devices come out with HDMI 1.4 before SN delivers this receiver.

So who cares :p They talk about this device for 2.5 years and you base your thesis on symptoms but not the problem. That makes sense to me :eek: Sounds like Bad Marketing Manager:(

One year, two years, five years, it really doesn't matter. SN's reputation has been damaged so badly they will never have any foothold in the market even if the 972 is the greatest thing out there. They are destined for failure and deserve the fallout from the 972 trainwreck. Never mind people who've owned SN products like the 965, there are thousands reading these threads that wouldn't touch the 972 with the proverbial ten foot pole after all the delays and broken promises. The fact that it took two years to "fix" the 965 demonstrates how much they care about their customers. Quite pathetic really.

The next SN press release will be an announcement that the delay is due to the implementation of 1.4 and that a late June release is planned ! How anyone can defend SN is beyond me, they need to stick with the low end entry level junk they are more well known for. At least those turds are released in a timely fashion.

Trinnov is three Dimensional Audio :cool:
You are hopeless! :D
I give up! :(

When people choose to ignore facts because they disagree with their personal interpretation of reality, they've departed from the real world and there's really no reason for the sane people to continue the discussion.

I have made a clear explanation of trinnov optimizer and R-972 development.
Instead you are denigrating Sherwood America, a company of your country hoping for others companies to make trinnov
You are dreamers :D Why? ADA is making trinnov. How much is it ? five or six thousand dollars. :eek:
I wonder who is departed from the real world?

BUYSED55, If SN implements Trinnov the same way you you debate then SN is in a world of hurt.

I say let's wait till the unit comes out...well if it comes out? Then we can say it is the greatest thing since sliced bread. Instead of listening to your silly comments;)

Now you can do your Seacrest Out, thing :eek:

Jeff, are you sending R-972 to gene dellasala (audioholics) for a review ?

"SN's reputation has been damaged so badly they will never have any foothold in the market even if the 972 is the greatest thing out there. "

That's myopic.

If the 972 delivers, word will spread and most of the buyers will end up being people who have never been to this thread and could care less how long others have waited.

That's myopic.

If the 972 delivers, word will spread and most of the buyers will end up being people who have never been to this thread and could care less how long others have waited.

Not quite right. Most of the lower end people will want the cheaper Denon or Onkyo's which are better bang for buck. The higher end which this is targeted at are a lot fussier and also consistently do a lot more research. Reading this thread would put most people off purchasing and rightly so.

"SN's reputation has been damaged so badly they will never have any foothold in the market even if the 972 is the greatest thing out there. "

That's myopic.

If the 972 delivers, word will spread and most of the buyers will end up being people who have never been to this thread and could care less how long others have waited.

No it's hyperopic given their history, what are you and optometrist or something ?

Hi, could someone please answer me this cause I'm considering to buy R872:

regarding R872 handshake problem - is it with a limited number of players/tuners or with every connected device?

Thanks!

BUYSED55, yes I am interested in the outlaw version

"Reading this thread would put most people off purchasing and rightly so."

So you think if the 972 delivers the promised performance and with more quirks than the competition, people won't buy it because it was late?

I have to admit, that would have to be a lot of performance now that Audyssey has upped the ante w/DynEQ and now DSX.

Sound Logic. You should never buy anything tommorow because it was not availible yesterday?

I didn't read the whole thread, so I hope I am not reiterating something.

It seems that Sherwood is overlly concerned that their receiver has to have all the newest technology they can fit in a receiver, but by the time they perfect one thing another technology comes out so they feel the need to upgrade and postpone the release, thank God that other companies aren't doing this same crap. Just churn out a damn receiver and wait till next year to put those updates in a NEW model that people can buy to replace last years model, it's like Sherwood knows nothing about "throw-away societies".:D

Duke Nukem Forever syndrome.
This bothers you all, but I would guess that Outlaw Audio is most bothered .

I didn't read the whole thread, so I hope I am not reiterating something.

It seems that Sherwood is overlly concerned that their receiver has to have all the newest technology they can fit in a receiver, but by the time they perfect one thing another technology comes out so they feel the need to upgrade and postpone the release".:D

No it is worse than that. It has been 2.5 years ince they announced, 6 months after announcing other companies had products out that had all the claimed features of the Sherwood with the exception of the Trinnov. When Jess was asked what the hold up was he replied they were having trouble with the control codes.

Still no Trinnov receiver which may be part of the problem but the fact is that Trinnov was completed some time ago now and there is still no receiver. They could have released the unit and just done updates to the system as Denon did but they are not even capable of doing that.

So the issue is now one of trust and they have proven themselves to be incompetent and their repeated missed deadlines just show that if the receiver has any issues at all the liklihood of them being fixed before you purchased your next receiver is zero.

That about sums them up.
In effect they are pretty much dead for any high end purchase.

Has anyone tried the R-772?

I waited two years before I said F-it and went somewhere else for an AV solution. I tried to give them a chance but that much time is ridicules.

As I understand it Outlaw Audio's forthcoming Pre Amp Processor was to be based on the SN receiver platform. So while there are many frustrated consumers wishing to buy the SN imagine the frustration in the board room of Outlaw. Right now that ship must be dead in the water. I was keeping their version on my radar for my upgrade.

We have used the 772 and 872. There have been NO HDMI compatability issues with either of them. They both can take a long time (~10 seconds) to lock onto the audio of an HDMI signal after the video part of the signal is shown. Some find this very annoying ubt at least it does eventually play the signal.

The 872 is nice but the video processor is either on or off per input. If you have a source that sends the native resolution of the device the video processor on it won't pass a 1080P signal. If you turn the video procesor off it will pass the 1080P signal but you'll have to rely on your source or TV to do the processing if the source sends a lower resolution signal. Not a deal killer for most since it can be turned off or on by input. Not much for manual EQ settings.

The 772 has Pretty good manual EQ settings if you have some type of measurement equipment or don't like the auto settings. The 772 will not power difficult to drive inefficient speakers as its amp is not as robust as the 872.

Bob

This is a review from af digitale magazine; the unit is a pre-production sample.
Please translate it from Italian to English with babel-fish.

POWER SUPPLY
- Trasformer core plate
- n.2 electrolytic condenser 12.000 uF

HDMI BOARD
- Dsp dual core Cirrus Logic CS 49007
- Converter Asahi Kasey AK4588 with ADC Stereo 96 Khz/24 bit and eight DAC 192 Khz/24 bit (S/N 106 db)
- Video Processor Genesis FLI2301 with DCDI deinterlacing and Post processing Faroudja
- Video Decoder Analog Devices ADV7401 - 10BIT
- Video Encoder Cirrus Logic CS4905 - 10BIT

CONNECTORS
- HDMI 4 IN / 1 out
- USB = Yes
- LAN = No
...

TEXT MENU
- Amp assign (surround back): room2 or Bi-amp
- Sub mode: Norm= only LFE; Plus=Sub active for 2ch sources
- Cinema EQ (function) = ON/OFF
- Crossover setting per speaker groups
- Video Settings per input with scaler 1080P and AV SYNC

SNAP
- 2 CURVES (FLAT and FRONT)

With cinema (surround sound) R-872 has a neutral (balanced) sound :

Con il cinema l'amplificatore mostra invidiabili doti di equilibrio.
Il suono è molto pulito e dettagliato, capace di un invidiabile omogeneità timbrica e di un corretto controllo: mai un effetto forzato o un acuto sibilante e particolari molto dettagliati e precisi che si collocano in modo corretto nell'ambiente di ascolto.
I cambi di direzione sono perfettamente gestiti, privi di buchi e con buona gradualità: i diffusori vengono guidati dall'amplificatore in modo omogeneo, garantendo una convincente sensazione surround.
I formati in alta risoluzione sono prontamente agganciati e riprodotti con ottima dinamica: i finali di potenza non sembrano in debito di ossigeno, capaci di guidare un sistema di diffusori impegnativo e di riempire anche ambienti di elevata cubatura.


Clean music in stereo mode. The reconstruction of the stage is exact.

In stereofonia l'R-872 mostra diverse "frecce al suo arco", la ricostruzione del palcoscenico è corretta, caratterizzata da una buona ampiezza e da una profondità convincente, ciò che pare decisamente apprezzabile è la corretta suddivisione dei piani che porta le voci ad essere posizionate giustamente avanti rispetto al fondo del palcoscenico, davanti all'orchestra.
Buona la focalizzazione dei particolari a cui manca solo un pizzico in termini di definizione dei contorni. Le voci femminili sono aggraziate e dotate di un buon spessore, non fredde ma pulite e dettagliate, dotate di un controllo che evita l'insorgenza di asprezze. Le voci maschili si fanno apprezzare per la corretta impostazione timbrica, capaci di una buona articolazione del registro medio-basso.
Le basse frequenze sono articolate e profonde, ma in qualche occasione mancano di un po' di decisione nella parte più bassa dello spettro: sono tutt'altro che molli, ma un po' più di velocità e cattiveria non avrebbero guastato.


Bugs:
- In this unit (pre-production) you cannot save calibration results. So they have made manual calibration (by ear)
- Video output Pal Locked at 50 Hz

Lab Test
SN R-872 8 ohm 2 ch 91,3 watt/0,045% Thd
SN R-872 8 ohm 5 ch 41,8 watt/0.076% Thd
Others
Sony STR-DA3400ES 8 ohm 2 ch 78,7 watt/0,090% THD
Sony STR-DA3400ES 8 ohm 5 ch 19,2 watt/0,191% THD
Onkyo Tx-SR806 8 ohm 2 ch 118,1 watt/0,092% THD
Onkyo Tx-SR806 8 ohm 5 ch 81,3 watt/0,245% THD

Notes
This review strengthens jeff's words

1. We are very good at manufacturing audio gear.
2. We care about performance as much as any reader on this forum.
3. We recognize our obligations and stand behind our products.


:)

BUYSED55

“Most of us who use HDTV with several sources such as DVD players and satellite boxes have been wondering why it takes so long to switch from one source to another or even just change TV channels. Sometimes we may have even thought the wrong button had been pressed on the remote control because it takes so long for the new channel to show up on the screen. Well, with Silicon Image’s new InstaPort™ technology, time between changing sources has been reduced from more than 5 seconds to less than 1. This will mean less frustration and confusion, and happier TV watching. It looks like one major HDTV annoyance has been solved beautifully.”

John E. Johnson, Jr.
Editor-in-Chief
Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity

I think this is the end of HDMI handshake issues.

BUYSED55

Good Morning, Are you hungry ?

:D

http://www.soundadviceblog.com/?p=1453

BUYSED55

The blogger picks a product of the day, every day. When is it being released?

Not sure why anyone following this thread would care as most all of the posters (there are a few level headed exceptions) just seem to keep crapping all over the place. If you are no longer interested in this product find another thread to frequent. If you do hang tight and see what becomes of it.

Life is short, enjoy it.

P.S. I continue to enjoy the sound quality of my P-965. There were other options at the time but I purchased this one. It has had a few firmware updates for bugs but it continues to deliver in excellent SQ. I must have gotten a good one by accident:)

Best Regards,

JD

Do they have a product yet?

NEWS ALERT....The new Sherwood 972 to meet new delay as the company implements the new HDMI 1.4 standard and 10.2 surround........:eek:



Just joking.:D

Jeff said the first units are scheduled to arrive in the port on June 5. Next is QC testing. They expect sufficient quantities for initial orders by mid-July.

Jeff said the first units are scheduled to arrive in the port on June 5. Next is QC testing. They expect sufficient quantities for initial orders by mid-July.

A solid date less than 2 weeks away is a definite improvement.

To arrive in port? I hope they're not coming on a slow boat from China! I've been lurking around on this topic because I would love to see Outlaw with a new prepro. Hopefully everything is a go when they do the QC testing.

R-972 is coming :)

R-972 is coming :)

Do you know more than what's been written in this thread? If so, please divulge!

Ok

This is my correspondence with jeff:

Hello jeff,
I have some questions for you:


Originally Posted by mtwhickory
Jeff said the first units are scheduled to arrive in the port on June 5. Next is QC testing. They expect sufficient quantities for initial orders by mid-July.

1) Can you confirm to me this ?
2) Excuse me, but what is QC testing ?


Originally Posted by BUYSED55
08 October 2008 chuck Back (industry member) I think in accord with SN opened "/The Official Sherwood Newcastle R-972 With Trinnov Optimizer Thread/" At this date SN had a complete pre-production line with a release date planned at the end of december.
I hope my account of what happened is quite right.


3) In that case can you make a manufacturing comparison between today and last october ?


Originally Posted by Bobl
Auto set up/ auto EQ systems not getting everything right, this is the most common problem and EVERY type of set up/ EQ has had probles. I didn't even list that in my problem list as it so room dependent that you can't blame the algorithm each EQ uses. A LOT of things can trick these systems. We have been able to do a better job manually than all these systems ie MCACC, YPAO, Audyssey, ARC, HK EZ set/EQ, Snap, etc.


4) Jeff, you have spent several months with Trinnov optimizer, what have you learned by experience that you would like to share with us

Thank you
Fabrizio
AVS member: BUYSED55

Fabrizio:

mtwhickory is correct. The first production units are en route to the
US and are slated to arrive at the Port of Los Angeles on June 5. The
first units are hugely oversold and we expect there will be very, very
few available to consumers. We have a much larger run coming at the end
of June and hope to be caught up with demand by mid-July.

I have been playing with one of the first production units in my home
system. With Trinnov engaged the audio is unbelievable. With the help
of Trinnov's DSP engineers, we were able to double the resolution of the
FIR DSP filters from what we demonstrated at CEDIA in September. The
September demo is the one Chuck Back wrote about so eloquently in the
AVS thread you cited.

There have certainly been delays getting the R-972 to market and I
apologize for all of the premature details we released. This is
different. We have actual production units on the water to us from Hong
Kong and will be building a lot more at the end of June.

All of today's receivers are very complex devices although I think none
are as complicated as the R-972. In spite of our best efforts, some
bugs will inevitably be found only after mass production. These are
typically caught during QC (quality control) and Beta testing. Both are
now underway.

I don't know Bob1, but I can tell you that no manual system can do what
Trinnov does. It is the only system that works in all 3 dimensions; the
only system that measures and differentiates between direct arrival,
first reflection, power response and room modes; the only system capable
or using the Bessel/Fourier transform to restore spatial fidelity and
wave-front accuracy.

I predict that listeners, reviewers and end-users will be completely
stunned by the audio quality they will have with Trinnov engaged in the
Newcastle R-972 receiver.

Best regards,

Jeff

I'm glad I waited. I didn't think it would happen, but I'm excited again.

I'll make some comments on EQ systems in general and a little on Trinnov of the demo I have seen. There is a lot that affects sound in a room and EQ systems in general have no idea what is happening in the room. They measure frequency, energy and time. Our calibration equipment does the same thing it is called TEF (time, energy, frequency). We can measure all the same things that Jeff described above, differentiating direct sound and reflections, power response, room modes, etc. Nothing new to a calibrator.

Most auto EQs measure frequency and energy and apply a boost or cut to a frequency to make some sort of ideal or flat frequency response. Some like Audyssey and Trinnov can make time corrections as well.

They use an algorithm based off from their research in a variety of rooms to TRY and make the best adjustments they can. In some rooms they work very good and not so good in others. The problem with any of these is they do not know what is causing the problem. Is it a placement issue with the speakers, subs or seating? Simple placement adjustments often make the system sound a lot better. They are also correcting for things that would be better corrected for with some form of acoustic treatments. And sometimes I look at a graph of these EQs and wonder why it made a decision to make a certain boost or cut.

Part of figuring EQ is multiple seating locations. Not everyone can have the money seat and which seat(s) get the most attention really can't be determined without communication with the end user. Do you want good sound everywhere or a money seats with great sound, etc? What tradeoffs should be made? What happens when some of the seats measure poorly why others measure pretty good? Waht if some seat might need a boost to correct a problem where another seat might need a cut at the same frequency? Which do you correct? or do you leave it alone?

This is why any of these auto EQ systems to date (Trinnov excluded since I haven't used it) haven't been able to do as good of a job as a good calibrator. They will often make improvements but they are not perfect.

Trinnov I find intriguing and I'm inpatiently waiting to do some testing in some real world environments. If Trinnov wasn't $15K I'd have probably already tested. What is different about Trinnov is they are trying to correct for in layman's term; "soundstage" (aka spatial fidelity and wavefront accuracy). Other systems try to correct for frequency and time for each speaker and sub individualy. Trinnov will try to do that by looking at the response and correlate its adjustments between channels to recreate not only the frequency and sound but the place in space we are supposed to hear the sound originating.

One simple example of this is a center speaker below a large screen and the left and right speakers to the sides. Trinnov correlating all three channels would make you believe the center channel sound is coming from the screen and not below it. Take this technology and apply it to 3 dimensions to create the perfect surround sound presentation. Fixing the soundstage problems manually has a lot to do with speaker/sub/ seating placements.

This could truly make the differences between someone calibrating a room and Trinnov much less. I don't think it would ever beat a well designed dedicated room but the differences might not be as great. And in the real world where placements might be limited and not ideal it could potentially do a better job.

I think the Trinnov technology has been tough to implement and has caused Sherwood many delays. They made a big mistake by announcing it so early and they are certainly suffering the consequences on this forum. Keep in mind that no one else has beat them to market with trinnov either. It is a new technology for receivers and I doubt as simple as just adding a new EQ chip and making some firmware adjustments.

We have used Sherwood Newcastle products in the past and they have been very reliable and their support has been very good. Knock on wood we have never had to send in any of their receivers, amps or preamps for servicing. The only problem we have ever had with Sherwood Newcastle was the failure of one of their DVD mechanisms which they handled promptly.

I'm not saying they haven't had their quirks and still do with their current line but so does everyone else. The problem is a consumer doesn't know which products might not play nice with other equipment when buying a product and they foolishly expect everything should work together:rolleyes:

Trinnov has the potential to be a truly revolutionary product.

Just my .02

Bob

"We have actual production units on the water to us from Hong
Kong and will be building a lot more at the end of June. "

Finally! BUYSED55, thanks for that info.

"Trinnov correlating all three channels would make you believe the center channel sound is coming from the screen and not below it. Take this technology and apply it to 3 dimensions to create the perfect surround sound presentation."

Something that occurred to me recently while contemplating Audyssey DSX's height channels is that if Trinnov can psychoacoustically raise or lower a speaker, maybe it can create the same height effects as DSX's height channel w/o additional speakers.

OTOH, nobody has specifically mentioned a really tall soundstage.

It could create a height channel but you need speakers that are placed higher to do this. Maybe if the center was above the screen it could possibly work. I don't think Trinnov is trying to do this yet and if it they do it might still require extra speakers placed higher. I'm not too concerned about the height channel until source material is encoded with it, I'd rather make sure the basics are done right:-)

Trinnov can't defy physics and if all your speakers in the room were at the same height it wouldn't be able to have any real effect on the height dimension. In fact Trinnov has a 2D setting for this situation. Another example would be the LCR speakers all being below (or above) the screen it wouldn't be able to create that wave front and make you believe the sound is coming from the screen even if the surround channels are placed higher. Because their orignation direction is too far away to do this well. But the 2D setting would still create a proper soundstage between the channels.

Anyway, if someone has more details on Trinnov it would be welcome to share. It has a lot of potential.

Bob

if Trinnov can psychoacoustically raise or lower a speaker, maybe it can create the same height effects as DSX's height channel w/o additional speakersIt can raise or lower a speaker by phantoming (is that a word?) those sounds to the two adjacent speakers. For height effect, the simplest approach is likely the most reliable: if you want to hear sound from a certain direction, place speakers there.

I was under the impression that Trinnov could "move" speakers w/o phantoming, presumably using HRTF and whatever other means they have.

After all, aren't there some speakers that create a credible surround effect w/only front speakers?

Height might be harder, though.

I'm a bit disappointed if it raises the center channel by using the L/R's; that can already be done just using a phantom center.

But that would corroborate w/one report I remember saying it did raise the center image but sounded phasey or somesuch.

Five days and counting... I will not post anything derrogatory about SN for at least five days.

We fully expect to add Dolby Height to the R-972 as a running change AFTER we're finally shipping. We intend to expand the set-up options which now include, 7.1, 5.1 plus stereo and 5.1 plus biamping and will add 5.1 plus height. Trinnov will find all the speakers, apply EQ, level and delay to all, but will only use the 5.1 set for remapping.

While I do not understand every tool Trinnov uses to bring out-of-plane speakers into line, I can tell you that HRTF's are not involved. The resulting sweet spot would be too small to be useful.

I know, also, that while creating a phantom image is part of the technology, it is not as simple as one might first imagine. Certainly, one could raise the image of a center channel speaker that's sitting on the floor by simply turning it off. But that won't work if it's the left channel speaker that's on the floor or if the right speaker's at ceiling level and the center speaker is on the floor. Trinnov's 3D re-mapping works in those cases as well.

In the old days, we'd have called a process we didn't understand, "FM". Let's just use that for now to describe how Trinnov uses speakers at different levels to shift the image vertically.

Jeff

Hi Jeff,

"We fully expect to add Dolby Height to the R-972 as a running change AFTER we're finally shipping."

Do the back surrounds have to be sacrificed to get the heights or will 9.1 be an option?

Steve are you inspecting the port of Los Angeles ? :D

AXIOM availability for the R-972 is mid-June :)

Trinnov will find all the speakers, apply EQ, level and delay to all, but will only use the 5.1 set for remapping.


The Trinnov processing in the R-972 will only work for 5.1 of the 7.1 channels? Does this mean that it cannot correct for improper placement of the two rear/back surround channels in a 7.1 system?

Dave K.

Dave:

As shipped, Trinnov on the R-972 uses all 7 speakers in a 7.1 system for remapping and will relocate misplaced surround speakers.

Jeff

Noah:

Although the Dolby Height plan I outlined above is still tentative, I think our R-972 users will need to make choices. As I see it, 7.1 with Trinnov EQ, delay, level and remapping or 5.1 with full Trinnov plus 2 height speakers with Trinnov EQ, delay and level only are realistic options. We could probably enable 7.1 with full Trinnov plus 2 preamp level height channels without any EQ by rededicating the Zone 3 preamp level audio outputs to the height channel and we will can certainly test that option. I suspect, however, that we will find the latter to be the poorer solution.

Jeff

Hi Jeff,

"We fully expect to add Dolby Height to the R-972 as a running change AFTER we're finally shipping."

Do the back surrounds have to be sacrificed to get the heights or will 9.1 be an option?

We intend to expand the set-up options which now include, 7.1, 5.1 plus stereo and 5.1 plus biamping and will add 5.1 plus height.

Jeff



I take that to mean you lose the rear 2 and replace them with height.

Cybersage:

That is correct. Back rear surround outputs will become height channel outputs.

Jeff

AXIOM availability for the R-972 is mid-June :)

Too bad there is no place I can go to actually see/hear one of these things (once they become available) within 300 miles of my home in the Detroit area.

Is Axiom taking names/pre-orders?

Dave K.

Dave K:

I feel reasonably certain that the R-972 will be available in Royal Oak.

Jeff

Jeff,

Is there a list of authorized Sherwood Newcastle Dealers in Michigan that I can read somewhere? I cannot find any such list/link on the sherwoodamerica.com web site.

I know of several shops in Royal Oak, but I don't recall seeing any Sherwood equipment recently.

Dave K.

Trinnov will find all the speakers, apply EQ, level and delay to all, but will only use the 5.1 set for remapping.

Jeff

I don't understand this statement. Can you clarify. I'm assuming that if we use a BluRay 7.1 channel source, it will process this.

Also, due to windows and doors, I'm unfortunately living in a 6.1 channel world (the back wall has all three speakers and no reason for two rears.)
http://www.htguide.com/forum/attachment.php4?attachmentid=15435
Will the R-972 correctly combine the two rears from a 7.1 source and create a 6.1 setup with all of the bells and whistles? I know that this was a bug/shortcoming in some older Audysses enabled receivers. I could never find an answer as to whether it ever got fixed.

I got an big beefy Outlaw 7500 that has been waiting a long time for this platform's arrive. I'm crossing my fingers hoping it delivers.

I have made many questions to jeff about R-972.
I'm a nightmare :D
Tomorrow morning all the answers :)

BUYSED55

Is anyone else out there hoping to use the R-972 with an Oppo BDP-83?

I hope somebody (Oppo and /or Sherwood ) will be doing testing with this dream combo.

Dave K.

Jeff,

Thanks for the answers, and for the clarification on center channel processing.

Have or will any 972's go to reviewers?

Is anyone else out there hoping to use the R-972 with an Oppo BDP-83?

I hope somebody (Oppo and /or Sherwood ) will be doing testing with this dream combo.

Dave K.
This combination has been on my list since last year. I already have the Oppo and it is great! I currently have an older Pioneer Elite VSX-49tx receiver (pre-HDMI) that I was planning to replace with the R-972. But, I really like the 8 channel amplifiers in the Pioneer, so I've been looking at the Outlaw 997 Pre/Pro rather than the 972. That way I can have Trinnov, HDMI, Hi-Res lossless codecs and some excellent amps and save myself a few hundred $.

DaveK: I sent you a PM about my intentions in Royal Oak. I feel certain that the Oppo/Sherwood testing will occur very soon.
K: I have no direct experience with a 6.1 configuration. In theory it should work fine but we will need to test that specific configuration.
Noah: Every reviewer in North America has already requested a review sample.
Kwolfman: If you are comfortable with on-line purchasing and are willing to forgo the built in amps and Dual Mode RF+IR remote, then the Outlaw 997 would be a fine choice.

Jeff

Hello Jeff,

I have ten questions about SN R-972.

1) Let's begin with a scoop! Which magazine is going to publish a full
review of SN R-972 ?

>We have requests from virtually every publication in North America.

2) I have a high opinion of Gene DellaSala (audioholics). He is a
qualified person for a review and Beta Testing even though SN has own
Beta Testers and Wayder in the preview should have been a little more
clear. However that may be I would like a review of Gene DellaSala. Is
it possible ?

>It is possible.

3) What is the availability of R-972 in France and in Italy (Pal
Version) ?

>I do not know the roll-out schedule in Europe. Typically it follows the
US by 60 days.

4) I would like to amaze my friends repeating at home your audioholics
demo with clips from PearlHarbor. R-972 is very easy to use but for
beginners may you post the trinnov settings you used in your demo ?
They are Trinnov Room EQ, Trinnov spatial mode, Trinnov Remapping and
Cinema Eq.

>I calibrated the system with the front sound stage centered on the video
display. For playback I chose, Natural, and 3-D remapping to the Cinema
position. I believe the Pearl Harbor demo started with Chapter 21.

5) Trinnov Spatial Mode. When turning it to 3D Remap the R-972 manual
says: "The remappig matrix is computed according to all Trinnov
criteria in order to produce the best spatial correction. What means
Trinnov criteria ? Is it making a reference to Trinnov Room EQ
Settings ? *Does change something in 3D Remap if Trinnov Room EQ
Setting is Flat instead of Natural ?

>For remapping to be successful, it requires that each speaker be eq'd to
have the same frequency and phase response. This will be most
successful when Flat or Natrual EQ are selected. Use of Audiophile 1
and Audiophile 2 modes, where Trinnov matches the response of the main L
and R speakers at all other positions or fixes problems below 300 Hz,
only, will preserve the sonic character of the main speakers but does
not correct for room induced response errors and does not fix any phase
problems. In my opinion, this means that the remapping will be less
successful when Audiophile 1 or Audiophile 2 mode is used. .

6) R-972 won CES 2008 Innovations Award for including Trinnov Optimizer
and Internet Capabilities. Is it possible with a new firmware and this
Hardware to load a Trinnov room eq curve ? Now it is as plain as daylight
that this option unique of its kind would be very useful if 3D remap
setting is linked with Trinnov Room EQ Function.

>We do not currently have the ability to upload new target curves.

7) Sherwood Newcastle is a receiver for enthusiast users with a fair
price. By the way what is the price of SN R-972 ?

>MSRP in the US is $1800.00

8) Autosetup Trinnov Optimizer and Velodyne Spl Ultra Series.
Preparations. The R-972 manual says "Set the Volume Halfway and Set
the Crossover Frequency to the Maximum or the Low Pass Filer Off" For
beginners it is important that your sub have these adjustment. Now
when Trinnov Setup is finished and i have made the R-972 Input SetUp,
do you advice me to use the auto-eq and presets mode of velodyne ?

>I do not believe I would use the Velodyne EQ if I were using the R-972
as Trinnov has far more processing power available than the Velodyne and
has a professional heritage.

9) SN R-972 Receiver and Oppo BDP-83. Oppo BDP-83 is one of the only
SACD players which can output SACD as DSD than first converting to
PCM. Can R-972 recieve and decode DSD over HDMI ?

>In theory the R-972 should decode SACD over HDMI but we have not tested
that option.

10) SN R-972 and JEFF'S HT. How did you configurate at home SN R-972 ?
During these tests have you ever had any issues in synchronizing audio
video ? Did you succeeded in changing AV SYNC setting from position 0 ?

>I have a 5.1 system. I mounted the Trinnov Acoustic Probe (microphones)
on a camera tripod, set the tripod in my main listening seat with the
probe at ear level, engaged autosetup, ran the calibrations and the
computations. The entire process took about 20 minutes. Making A/V
Synch adjustments is common today with virtually all systems. I did not
feel it necessary to engage that feature in my own system where I have a
CRT projector , during a dealer demo using a Sim2 DLP projector, we
needed to add 35 ms of delay to the audio to restore A/V synch.

Jeff

Thank you very much.

Fabrizio

AV member: BUYSED55

I calibrated the system with the front sound stage centered on the video display

11) Please, may you explain the procedure to do this ?

Thank you

Fabrizio

>The acoustic probe has a label on it that says, "front". Point that
capsule at your intended sound stage.

Jeff

Wow. That all sounds complicated. I'm getting even more excited to get my hands on one of these. :)

.
K: I have no direct experience with a 6.1 configuration. In theory it should work fine but we will need to test that specific configuration.
Jeff

It would be great if this could get tested. I'm hoping that my local place will one of these soon. Holm Audio in Woodridge, IL?

Jeff,

"Every reviewer in North America has already requested a review sample."

"We have requests from virtually every publication in North America. "

"However that may be I would like a review of Gene DellaSala. Is
it possible ?

>It is possible."

I don't mean to be difficult, but I'm not able to divine whether these requests are being honored or not.

I've seen rollouts where the mfgr says they will fulfill customers demand before supplying review samples.

Jeff,

"Every reviewer in North America has already requested a review sample."

"We have requests from virtually every publication in North America. "

"However that may be I would like a review of Gene DellaSala. Is
it possible ?

>It is possible."

I don't mean to be difficult, but I can't tell from your responses whether these requests are being honored or not.

I've seen rollouts where the mfgr says they will fulfill customers demand before supplying review samples.

OK where's the photo of the pallet of 972s ? There was a Chinese junk, hauling some Chinese junk spotted at the port of Los Angeles:

OK where's the photo of the pallet of 972s ? There was a Chinese junk, hauling some Chinese junk spotted at the port of Los Angeles:

What is it have to do with "Chinese junk"? Are they stepping on your tail?

OK where's the photo of the pallet of 972s ? There was a Chinese junk, hauling some Chinese junk spotted at the port of Los Angeles:
Oh, that was cute...:rolleyes:
+1 to MY Ignore List...

Jeff said the first units are scheduled to arrive in the port on June 5. Next is QC testing. They expect sufficient quantities for initial orders by mid-July.
Five days and counting... I will not post anything derrogatory about SN for at least five days.This was posted on June 1st...5 days have come and gone. :eek:

Does anyone have any info showing they are now in the US?

John McCutcheon, why did you place him on igore? You disliked his witty way of saying the newest date has come and gone without a product in sight?

June 5 was that date that they were to arrive in port, stateside. Jeff said that they would have to do internal QC and that they would be arriving in dealers showrooms in mid-July. Do you really think they need to update us with photos of them being unloaded out of a shipping container? WOW!

You both are now on my ignore list for being nothing but thread crappers.

If the product was not about 2 years late, I would agree with you ---k---. Since it IS very late, then yes, they should post pics.

At this point, every reassurance possible should be given.


Maybe I am one of the people in ---k---'s ignore list. If so, all that needs to happen is for someone else to quote this post and ---k--- will see it anyway.

June 5 was that date that they were to arrive in port, stateside. Jeff said that they would have to do internal QC and that they would be arriving in dealers showrooms in mid-July. Do you really think they need to update us with photos of them being unloaded out of a shipping container? WOW!

You both are now on my ignore list for being nothing but thread crappers.While photos may not necessarily be required, some kind of confirmation is totally appropriate and not an unreasonable request given SN's apparent inability to meet a schedule so far. JMO

Deleted

When you see R-972 on AXIOM' s website you can order it.

How does that answer the question about whether it entered a US port on the 5th?


I think some people in this thread are taking this receiver WAYYY too seriously. With all the delays it has already gone through, another one is expected at this point...and laughed at.

No receiver is important enough to get made over people poking fun of it being delayed again.

Deleted

What will truth out?

Dang, I was gone on vacation and came back and now my receiver (HK AVR8000) will not power up. I previously was extemely interested in the SN as I have never had a receiver with Room Correction and Trinnov sounded enticing but the delays had me doubting the ability for SN to fix bugs in a timely manner and there is a high chance of bugs being that this is the first Trinnov receiver. Also my wife lost her job so spending money has been tight.

Its only been a couple days and already I miss my home theater. Based purely on specs etc what are some "big name" receivers that would be direct competitors with the R-972? If the price of the R-972 is much better than the comparable competitors it might be worth it for me to put up with a few bugs.

Other than being separates what advantages does the outlaw 997 + an amp have over the R-972?

Well, a few days have gone by.

I don't expect pictures, but how about a word of confirmation that yes, they really did arrive in LA?

I don't think this is unreasonable at all. I'm still waiting, but am watching for the missteps -- but most everything will be forgiven it I get the straight story (aka the truth).

On most every web forum there seems to always be a tragic case of over promise and under deliver where everyone is told it will only be "two more weeks" ... for over a year.

Please, are they really, truly, actually, in the USA, or did "something come up"? If so, what?

Anyone who isn't just a little doubtful here hasn't been paying attention or is the consummate Dr. Pangloss.

All I am asking is for regular status reports. I want to believe. Just keep us in the loop. Please.

They are due to arrive without firmware and then need to go through beta testing. I predict they will not test sufficiently like in the past and the first units will hit the streets with bugs... I can't wait !

Steve, you are waiting :D

Steve, you are waiting :D

:D So true!

I didn't say I was waiting to buy one, just waiting for my experience with Sherwood to come full circle :D

I am hearing that the first wave is going through QC and doing "GREAT". This will be a GREAT SUMMER after all!!!!

I am so ready to ditch my Integra junk.

Please hurry and ship them Jeff.

Ditching Integra for Sherwood ? Sounds like a lateral move... or maybe even a downgrade.

Integra is still Onkyo.. trust me , it is NOT a downgrade.

PS- Some of the Onkyo line is built by Sherwood...fyi

PS- Some of the Onkyo line is built by Sherwood...fyi

OK........like to share some proof, I have heard of other brands but not Onkyo's.

Integra is still Onkyo.. trust me , it is NOT a downgrade.

PS- Some of the Onkyo line is built by Sherwood...fyi

Correct..
The Sherwood factory does build some Onkyo products such as mini-systems but not AVRs..


Just my $0.025... ;)

They OEM mini systems... High end mini systems or entry level ? :rolleyes:

Today the company's leadership continues. Not only is the Sherwood brand synonymous with high performance audio worldwide, but it is an industry secret that Sherwood is the actual manufacturer of nearly one-third of the world's high performance receivers. Many of the products we build are available with brand names which may be better known than our own. But none are built with the same sense of pride as those that bear our own name, nor are any better built or better engineered than those that bear our Newcastle badge. Newcastle is the best we build for anyone.

BUYSED55

I am hearing that the first wave is going through QC and doing "GREAT". This will be a GREAT SUMMER after all!!!!

I am so ready to ditch my Integra junk.

Please hurry and ship them Jeff.

I am skeptical. I have heard this type of info already.

Today the company's leadership continues. Not only is the Sherwood brand synonymous with high performance audio worldwide, but it is an industry secret that Sherwood is the actual manufacturer of nearly one-third of the world's high performance receivers. Many of the products we build are available with brand names which may be better known than our own. But none are built with the same sense of pride as those that bear our own name, nor are any better built or better engineered than those that bear our Newcastle badge. Newcastle is the best we build for anyone.

BUYSED55

More propaganda from the SN marketing folks. Why would anyone sub out to them if they claim Newcastle is the best they build ? I owned one, they're not that great. Maybe that's why 1/3 of the receivers out there are crap.

I am hearing that the first wave is going through QC and doing "GREAT". This will be a GREAT SUMMER after all!!!!

I am so ready to ditch my Integra junk.

Please hurry and ship them Jeff.

Not sure which Integra unit you have but I would not say their products are junk. I have never owned a Integra product but have owned a Onkyo 905, 805 (which I still own), 885 and my current prepro a 886. The 885/886 are clones of the 9.8/9.9 and would say they are far from junk;). I owned a Boston Acoustics AVP7 which was a clone of the S/N P965 which I found had excellent SQ just a little buggy and the menu/setup was a little tricky.

I almost forgot I am on my second Boston Acoustics A7200 amp which is a clone of the S/N A-965. I sold my first one which I regreted big time. I found one that a member here was selling and I am glad to have another one. The A7200 is an excellent amp and can highly recommend it whether it is the A7200 or the A-965.

I wish S/N good luck in the roll out of their new receivers:). I think it will really define S/N as a company if things go well and then people will let go of the past with issues S/N has had.

Bill

Today the company's leadership continues. Not only is the Sherwood brand synonymous with high performance audio worldwide, but it is an industry secret that Sherwood is the actual manufacturer of nearly one-third of the world's high performance receivers. Many of the products we build are available with brand names which may be better known than our own. But none are built with the same sense of pride as those that bear our own name, nor are any better built or better engineered than those that bear our Newcastle badge. Newcastle is the best we build for anyone.

BUYSED55Marketing propaganda :eek:

Today the company's leadership continues. Not only is the Sherwood brand synonymous with high performance audio worldwide, but it is an industry secret that Sherwood is the actual manufacturer of nearly one-third of the world's high performance receivers. Many of the products we build are available with brand names which may be better known than our own. But none are built with the same sense of pride as those that bear our own name, nor are any better built or better engineered than those that bear our Newcastle badge. Newcastle is the best we build for anyone.

BUYSED55

Well, that drivel pretty much eliminates any chance you ever had of being taken seriously around here.

What's even more sad is that is an excerpt from SN's website.

Even more pathetic:

"Throughout the evolution of advanced audio electronics, Sherwood's contributions have been invaluable. The world's first commercial FM stereo broadcast employed Sherwood technology. Sherwood was the first to introduce digital readout tuners and computer-controlled tuners. And, most significantly, the industry's first 100% all-silicon solid-state audio receiver came from Sherwood."

Hello... that was over 30 years ago ! What have they pioneered since then ? Nothing.

Today's Sherwood has nothing to do with the original Sherwood, it is a company that has been bought and sold by venture capitalists many times over the years. Sherwood is what you bought in 1970 when you couldn't afford McIntosh.

Steve.

I don't know what wrong Sherwood has done you or where you get your facts. The Sherwood brand has had two owners. From 1953 to 1983 it was owned by Sherwood Electronic Labs based in Chicago. Since 1983 it has been owned by Inkel Corporation of Seoul, Korea. It still is.

Within my tenure at Sherwood we did produce the world's first DTS receiver. Now we have the world's first with the Trinnov Optimizer. (Yes, they did arrive today.) We will soon announce another first.

We may space our breakthroughs decade by decade, but we do make them.

Jeff Hipps

They OEM mini systems... High end mini systems or entry level ? :rolleyes:

Depending upon the country and their respective currency rates, they would sell retail from about $300 to $1000...

Keep in mind..
Certain countries do little with AVRs so mini systems is the primary main stream audio category..


Just my $0.025... :rolleyes:

I am hoping the 972 does exceptionally well. I am no longer in the market for a receiver (unless I come into some unexpected cash), but I want it to do well.

SN R-872 8 ohm 5 ch 41,8 watt/0.076% Thd
Pretty appalling power number here.

What do you think about Trinnov, is realistic to think that it will be good enough so that we will want to have it activated? Or do we turn it off to get better sound?
My most recent test of an auto-eq system was YPAO on the Yamaha rxv-1500 receiver a few years ago. It did not make a clean sound. Especially music easily sounded worse with YPAO activated. So it was not of much use.

But according to reviews of the professional Trinnov system it seems very good. So I wonder, will the r-972 Trinnov version be a "turn on" or "turn off" feature...

Just want to say I am very exited about the r-972 and am impatiently awating its arrival to Sweden!

Originally Posted by S44
Pretty appalling power number here
I can make four comments:

1) R-872 Labs Measures are average numbers for this class of 1000$ receivers.

2)This unit is a pre-production one so they are by way of example only.

3) Onkyo thd numbers are 322% worse than R-872

Perhaps you did not translate the last part of the first quote with babel fish


Originally Posted by BUYSED55
i finali di potenza non sembrano in debito di ossigeno, capaci di guidare un sistema di diffusori impegnativo e di riempire anche ambienti di elevata cubatura


4) R-872 is able to pilot demanding speakers and fill up large rooms.

BUYSED55

MikeLand

Please read these posts and enjoy R-972 :)

#714
#1023
#1038
#1046
#1048
#1061
#1457
#1797
#1884
#1910
#1911

BUYSED55

Steve.

I don't know what wrong Sherwood has done you or where you get your facts. The Sherwood brand has had two owners. From 1953 to 1983 it was owned by Sherwood Electronic Labs based in Chicago. Since 1983 it has been owned by Inkel Corporation of Seoul, Korea. It still is.

Within my tenure at Sherwood we did produce the world's first DTS receiver. Now we have the world's first with the Trinnov Optimizer. (Yes, they did arrive today.) We will soon announce another first.

We may space our breakthroughs decade by decade, but we do make them.

Jeff Hipps

It's what Sherwood hasn't done, your support of the 965 was pathetic. In fact I met you at HE06 and you were quite rude when I asked you about your lack of support on the product.

Steve.

While I am unaware of any personal rudeness directed at you, please accept my apology for offending you.

Regarding our support for the 965 series, I completely disagree. We took an exemplary product that was already on the market, added automatic setup and gave away the microphone and mic preamp needed to enable it. Then we continued development, added Room EQ and offered it to our customers for less than our cost to install and return ship the unit. I believe such after introduction development is unprecedented in our consumer space.

Jeff

It's what Sherwood hasn't done, your support of the 965 was pathetic. In fact I met you at HE06 and you were quite rude when I asked you about your lack of support on the product.

I agree, the issue with Bass Management on the 965 ;) I almost purchased one. Glad I didn't, I hope they don't have the same issue on the new receiver. I guess it will be wait and see.

BUYSED55, thanks for that reference to different posts, I´ve now read them all and is of course even more anxious to test the r-972 now :D

Onkyo thd numbers are 322% worse than R-872

What model of Onkyo are you comparing it to, the 806 measures the SAME as the 872, they are in the same price league.:rolleyes:

Rustdust

R-872 review is my post #1870

I'm sorry you need to translate the review from italian to english with babel fish translator because it's not an easy task for me to do it.
There aren't R-872 review over internet, so it's better than nothing.

BUYSED55

I'm receiver shopping and have some questions (i've looked back through the thread and the 972 manual and didn't see the answers but might have missed them):

- Is the trinnov processing available on all digital input formats - even bitstreamed TrueHD, DTS-HD MA etc? I was shocked to hear until recently Audyssee was not available on many receivers unless you did LPCM.

- Will the 972 do bass management and/or trinnov processing on analog inputs?

- Some earlier comments by people listening to the trinnov processing mentioned it had better bass management than competitors - Jeff can you give any info on this on how the 972 is better than the competitors in this regard?

- (not expecting an answer to this) any update on how soon consumers will be able to order/receive the 972? Since my current receiver just died this question suddenly became much more important to me. :)

Thanks!

Both Onkyo 876 and the Sherwood 872 are listed on there sites as 0.05 THD.

I'm receiver shopping and have some questions (i've looked back through the thread and the 972 manual and didn't see the answers but might have missed them):

- Is the trinnov processing available on all digital input formats - even bitstreamed TrueHD, DTS-HD MA etc? I was shocked to hear until recently Audyssee was not available on many receivers unless you did LPCM.

That would be shocking if it were true - good thing it's not. The only processor I've heard of which cannot run Audyssey MultEQ on the bitstreamed HD audio formats is the Marantz AV8003. All the Denons and Onkyos process HD audio bitstreams with MultEQ just fine.

That would be shocking if it were true - good thing it's not. The only processor I've heard of which cannot run Audyssey MultEQ on the bitstreamed HD audio formats is the Marantz AV8003. All the Denons and Onkyos process HD audio bitstreams with MultEQ just fine.

Sorry if I was misinformed, my statement was based off this (taken from the Audyssey thread when I asked which receivers apply Audyssey to bitstreamed HD and answered by Chris from Audyssey):



2. I have read some posts here that some receivers will only apply audyssey to LPCM and not to bitstreamed HD audio - is this true? Anyone have a list of which ones do apply it to bitstreamed HD Audio?

Yes, it's true. There is no list that I know of. I can say that "most" new models are getting around this because the manufacturers are adding more powerful DSP, but you still need to check the specs (or read the online manual) of the model you are interested in.

I will agree with Jeff on the support aspect. I have had many (almost a hundred) receivers and processors over the years. I also owned the P965. I vary rarely see support after the sale on a unit in this price range. Can someone name the last time that onkyo, pioneer, yamaha, Hk and many other company's provide firmware upgrades two years after production, some do but most don't? Most of the time they just release a new model and move on. Not to mention try and call Pioneer, or Yamaha and talk to an engineer or tech about the product they sell. I was always able to talk to someone at Sherwood, and has anyone seen any yamaha, pioneer, HK, or Onkyo reps hanging around on the forum. I agree much higher priced units offer this support, but I spent almost 3 grand on an Arcam unit, and never saw a firmware upgrade to that unit, then they release the new unit at 5 grand.

Also I think the only real mistake that SN made was the release of information to soon on a product under development. Other companies do not engineer their products in a couple of months either, but they do not make statements about products until they are very close to release. Sherwood just got excited and spoke way to soon. Lets be honest, if they would have told you about the new product, say 6 months ago, you would be crapping yourself to get one. Even after two years I am still crapping myself to get one, OH that is what that smell is..........

Denon does as well, for the 3808 at least. Of course, it has yet to be 2 years. A new firmware update just came out, though. Nice that I can download it via the ethernet port on the avr.

I have not heard any bad things about SN, except for the limitations of the 872. The 972 will not have those same limitations, though.

What! you owned a 965 and didn’t have a Bass Management problem? if so, I can see why you have BM problems;) Proper Bass Management is a minimum requirement for a receiver.

I did have the BM problems, but learned to live with it and adjust for it (insert joke here). I have never really had a unit that has not had some sort of glitch.

Glitch...:( Bass Management is a BASIC Function that MUST perform correctly. You can adjust for the LFE, but you would never be able to adjust for the BM

Glitch...:( Bass Management is a BASIC Function that MUST perform correctly. You can adjust for the LFE, but you would never be able to adjust for the BM

Hey B&W,

Its been so long since I had the AVP7 (P-965 clone) I can not recall what the issue with BM was. Can you refresh my memory, it is a very poor one:o.

Bill

Hey B&W,

Its been so long since I had the AVP7 (P-965 clone) I can not recall what the issue with BM was. Can you refresh my memory, it is a very poor one:o.

Bill
The BM was off by 10db, as I remember? If you would like to re-live it by firmware upgrades, go to the link below.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=482643&highlight=bm

I almost purchased one around 4 years ago. But because of the BM issues, I purchased an AVR-7300. As I remember, when I bought my 885 they still had the same problem:(

Again, I hope the new receiver is a hit. But, I would rather Wait and See before I would contemplate a purchase. If it is a hit, I will be interested in the Outlaw prepro.

The BM was off by 10db, as I remember? If you would like to re-live it by firmware upgrades, go to the link below.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=482643&highlight=bm

I almost purchased one around 4 years ago. But because of the BM issues, I purchased an AVR-7300. As I remember, when I bought my 885 they still had the same problem:(

Again, I hope the new receiver is a hit. But, I would rather Wait and See before I would contemplate a purchase. If it is a hit, I will be interested in the Outlaw prepro.

I cant belive you are still rambling on about the BM on the 965, as i stated once before, after one of the firmware updates it was 3db shy and was easly fixed by inreasing 3db in the channel trim in the 965 menu:confused:

1st of all, if you change the volume up or down to compensate for Sherwood issue with the LFE, now you are affecting the redirected bass volume to the sub. To me that is a BIG issue. As I remember, it was never fixed ;) and if it was, it took 2 years. What a mess:(

How does this even make sense?

I cant belive you are still rambling on about the BM on the 965...

Alright, who took a BM on the 965?!

;)

AJ

I cant belive you are still rambling on about the BM on the 965, as i stated once before, after one of the firmware updates it was 3db shy and was easly fixed by inreasing 3db in the channel trim in the 965 menu:confused:
I can't believe you are rambling about 3db being acceptable:( and how many years did it take to get to that point of still being broken...3yrs? But to answer your question, I mentioned it because of the comments on this page...try reading it;)

How does this even make sense? Increase the LFE channel and you increase the redirected bass. ;)

Again, I hope the new unit is a home run.

I don't want to sound like the Master of the Obvious, but, a receiver or prepro needs to handle all of the audio duties properly. The 965 BM didn't meet the minimum requirement:(

10 dB is a huge amount to be off, to "fix" it and still be off by 3 dB is sad. It shows a total lack of proper testing. Why try to fix it at all ?

Don't you guys *ever* get tired of whining about the same old same old? jeez

I will agree with Jeff on the support aspect.

Can someone name the last time that onkyo, pioneer, yamaha, Hk and many other company's provide firmware upgrades two years after production, some do but most don't?

When I discovered that there was a problem with DTS-MA playback on my R-872, I contacted Sherwood support VIA E-Mail. It took a few weeks, but I got updated firmware from Jeff and was able to flash my receiver, fixing the problem.

I am totally ok with their support at this point. I didn't have to ship/take my receiver anywhere and be without it while it was fixed.

I can't believe you are rambling about 3db being acceptable:(

It's no different than you ignoring Onkyo/Integra flaws and saying that they are acceptable!

LOL....please.

Please what? Excuse you for being a hypocrite?
You do the exact same things that you complain about other people doing, and then you try to weasel your way out of it.

LOL...you forgot to add Hick-up and Burp! Why did you buy one? Don't try to weasel out of answering it... LOL

Me buying one or not, has nothing to do with you being a hypocrite. But if you must know, it was only because of the lowball $500 price shoponkyo was unloading them for. And unlike you, I don't ignore it's faults and then run around the forum and criticize the faults of other brands.

You know very what the faults/issue/bugs with the Onkyo/Integra are, you just ignore them. I only bought it because of the price being so low at $500, that it finally was priced at what it was worth. And by having a outboard scaler, it also allows me to not need the reon bugs fixed. Otherwise I never would have bought it.

You know very what the faults/issue/bugs with the Onkyo/Integra are, you just ignore them. I only bought it because of the price being so low at $500, that it finally was priced at what it was worth.

I'm kind of curious what faults/issues/bugs the 885 have that you mention. I had the 885 but now have the 886 and I did not have any issues with the 885 or with now with the 886. Maybe it is an issue with a function I am not using but seriously I have not had any problems. There is no perfect receiver/prepro thats for sure, just some have more issues than others. To say the 885 is only worth $500.00 is not very accurate IMO. What receiver/prepro with the same features that the 885 has goes for $500.00? I think that will be hard to find;).

Bill

Well, I am very interested in purchasing the Outlaw Prepro version of this receiver. Again it will be a wait and see;) Hope it is great:D

Maybe the 3rd time will be a charm.

Still trying like crazy to weasel out of the fact you are a hypocrite.....

To say the 885 is only worth $500.00 is not very accurate IMO.

That is all it was worth to me, which is also why I was not even at all interested in going for a 886 at twice the price.

So I understand you,

You will understand once you admit that you are being a hypocrite. You seem to think that it's OK for only you to ignore or say a problem is not a issue, but if someone else does that, you keep making a big deal out of it and demand to know how they can ignore or not admit it.....

I am not being a hypocrite. You can keep on saying it if you like. If you can’t see the differences then you should stay away from saying that you even care about audio, because you don't. Bass Management is the most basic and one of the most important functions in audio! But as I can see, by your posts, that you don't care about audio at all.


What a laugh, the 885/886 and also the Integra versions, have one of the worst analog audio sections there is in a product anywhere near their MSRP, and now you try to make it out like they are the greatest thing in the world for audio. Yeah they do just fine on digital audio, but they are pretty bad with analog. Not to mention the bleeding over of radio signals into the phono inputs is a real nice touch, kinda sucks for anyone that maybe wants to use the phono inputs to actually play records. For those who only use it for HT use, that's probably not a issue to them.


Yes indeed you are a being a hypocrite. And your continuous defending of the Onkyo/Integra on any of their faults/issues and in most cases just outright trying to flat out ignore them, while blasting other products for much of the same type of things proves it.

You just seem to love giving negative criticism and blasting other products and even the people that may own them, and if they even remotely defend their product your criticism goes into overdrive. And then you get all defensive when someone mentions anything that might be wrong with your beloved Onkyo. Well I have the Onkyo also, and it is far from being even anywhere near perfect. Yes it's very good for some things, but it's also very poor for some other things. Just like most other products, it has it's good points and also it's faults. But unlike you, I don't have a problem with admitting that it may not be the greatest thing since sliced bread. For anything with a digital sound output, for the most part it does the job well, with analog it is another story.

What a laugh, the 885/886 and also the Integra versions, have one of the worst analog audio sections there is in a product anywhere near their MSRP, and now you try to make it out like they are the greatest thing in the world for audio. Yeah they do just fine on digital audio, but they pretty bad with analog.

Duh, If you have ever read any of my post on this issue then you would know that I have been very out spoken on this issue. If you want to listen to analog, buy a 2 channel preamp with HT bypass. I have been saying this for over 1.5 years. My issue with you is that don't think that Bass Management is important. That has nothing to do with the analog section of the 885. If you purchased an 885 for the analog section, then you did some really sloppy research;) But after reading these posts it would not suprise me:(


Yes indeed you are a being a hypocrite. And your continuous defending of the Onkyo/Integra on any of their faults/issues and in may cases just outright trying to flat out ignore them, while blasting other products for the much of the same type of things proves it.

Again, what faults and issue. give them to me, you mention Reon and you think that is a bigger issue then Bass Management....PLEASE. You try to compare apples to oranges.

I have one more question...do you even care about the 972. I do, and I hope it is great! I don't think you do:( you just want to argue

Those of you who are aiming for the Outlaw prepro, what power amplifiers are you planning to use?
What is the reason not to use the r-972 amplifiers?

My speakers are a bit hard to drive, but I think the r-972 will handle them just well. But I might try a Linn 5-channel amp to drive the left and right channels bi-amped, and the center to see if the sound quality will be even better.

If you want to listen to analog, buy a 2 channel preamp with HT bypass.

That has nothing to do with the analog section of the 885. If you purchased an 885 for the analog section, then you did some really sloppy research;) But after reading these posts it would not suprise me.


Well then you will be surprised, because you are totally wrong! I have had complete dedicated 2 channel only system with it's own pre-amp/power amp for years, that shares nothing with the 885, not even speakers, and that I am more than happy with. So NO, I did not purchase the 885 for it's analog at all. Although it sure would not hurt it any if it was a lot better in that regard!




Again, what faults and issue.

Again, you are only trying to weasel out of being a hypocrite! It has faults and issues, and you also know d@mn well what most of them are.

The only thing you are doing, is ignoring it's faults and issues, and in some ways even trying to pretend they do not exist. Things like setting up a 2 channel bypass, does not erase the fact that there is a sub par analog section in them. Even though you seem to think it, and other things should not be counted against it. And yet if anyone else tries to do those kind of things with some other product, that you don't like, then you constantly rag on them about it.


you just want to argue

Coming from you..... That's a laugh!

Johnla, you have got to be drunk! What are you talking about? Stop slicing up my posts, when you do it makes me sound as crazy as you.

Note, I have deleted most of my posts with Johnla. Sorry that I was a part of hijacking this thread!

Well, I am very interested in purchasing the Outlaw Prepro version of this receiver. Again it will be a wait and see;) Hope it is great:D

god help the outlaw forum if you do purchase the pre pro version and there is a slight issue with it.
you have not even owned the 965 but still cary on ranting and raving how crap it is.
why don't you go over to the outlaw forum and post your words of wisdom over there I am sure a lot of people over here are getting bored of non constructive input

What is the reason not to use the r-972 amplifiers?


I will checkout the Outlaw as I already have separate amps.

That is all it was worth to me, which is also why I was not even at all interested in going for a 886 at twice the price.

Thats cool:). But you do not discuss what issues/faults/flaws the 885 has that you have mentioned several times. Which you have been asked several times to list uncluding myself. I am actually curious to know what faults the 885 has. The one issue I do see mentioned is the HDMI handshake issue which Onkyo is not the only manufacturer that has this issue.

As we discussed before if you bought the 885 at around $500.00 from shoponkyo you can easily get $700.00 for it on A-gon as I did. Matter of fact I had numerous offers at that price and one very unhappy guy because I would not sell it to him even though it was sold:rolleyes:. I bought the 886 from shoponkyo taking advantage of the 10% (plus points earned:)) sale over Memorial Day and with the sale of the 885 bought the cost of the upgrade to a whopping $185.00:eek:. Certainly not double the cost of the 885.

So unless you sold the 885 for what you paid for it which would be mighty nice of you the upgrade to the 886 would not cost twice as much. For me it was well worth the upgrade for the additional features of the 886.

Not too often here on AVS do you see a member saying a product is not worth much, has numerous issues/faults/flaws but owns said product;). It is what I would say somewhat of a conundrum:D.

I apologize for getting off topic here. Any other 885 talk should be discussed in the 885 thread:).

Bill

Here you go, something better to chew on.

Here you go, something better to chew on.

Nice elegant box:). I will look forward to seeing some thoughts on the R-972. Will you be putting this unit in your system or is it for a customer?

Bill

Wow;

It's a promising box! :)

BUYSED55

--------------------------
PS.

Jeff and Mr Hoyt, thank you sincerely.

Alright, who took a BM on the 965?!

;)

AJ

Sorry, that was me. I am lactose intolerant and someone played a prank - replaced my Lactaid milk with regular milk.

I could not help myself.

I will clean it up in the morning.

:o

You will understand once you admit that you are being a hypocrite. You seem to think that it's OK for only you to ignore or say a problem is not a issue, but if someone else does that, you keep making a big deal out of it and demand to know how they can ignore or not admit it.....

To be proper, that is a double standard.

A hypocrite is someone who says no one should do something, but still does it himself.
A double standard is someone who says it is ok if they do it but wrong if others do it.

Examples:
Hypocrasy: An unmarried preacher who says premarital sex is wrong yet is having premarital sex.
Double Standard: Men can sleep with as many women as they want and it is perfectly fine, women who do that are sluts.

A common mistake people make.

Didn't the Onkyo's also doube as a grill for steaks? I heard they got so hot some people had to install a halogen fire supression system for their homes, to prevent losing everything if they watched it for more than a few hours.


;)

Here you go, something better to chew on.

I did not know they were designed in the US.

Didn't the Onkyo's also doube as a grill for steaks? I heard they got so hot some people had to install a halogen fire supression system for their homes, to prevent losing everything if they watched it for more than a few hours.


;)

Yes you are correct! My 805 could grille a 3" filet faster than my Weber:eek:. I also saved on my heating bill and lowered propane consumption:D. Onkyo should sell their receivers as alternative heat sources they would clean up.

Bill