Can anyone offer objective comparisons,
between the Sharp 1080p offering and the new 1080p JVC unit?

1) Sharpness at native 1080p of a static pattern, center / corners.
The Sharp unit will not have convergence errors, but how do the lenses compare?

2) Brightness / Contrast / Black levels, Sharp with IRIS stopped down (high contrast) vs JVC?

3) Fan noise - one big concern of both units, the Sharp has been noted as louder than average?


If your not prone to DLP headaches / rainbows, is the Sharp still the top 1080p projector under 9K?

Since the RS-1 has not yet been released and no one has had an opportunity to perform a detailed analysis, this is an impossible question to answer. Assuming that both projectors are at or near the top of their respective technologies, I suspect that the main difference would be between the traditional strengths and weaknesses of LCoS vs. DLP.

Beyond that, the Sharp will probably offer better color, sharpness, and ANSI contrast, whereas the JVS will offer better on/off contrast, light output, and lower fan noise. This is just an educated guess based on what I've read about the JVC.

Havent seen the JVC, so cant comment.
But if have the need for an occassion brighter picture, ie, want to turn on the lights for a footbal game, etc...

then the sharp may be better as you can get over 900 lumens with the iris open.
So it offers more flexibility in different ambient light conditions.

Thanks Tom, just hoped with Sharp re-releasing the 20000 at the show, maybe some made an effort to compare the two?

I'm sure over the next couple months some direct compares will be made, but if the Sharp in the objective view of the 'wise' clearly tops the JVC now, then it might not be worth the wait for the JVC to arrive.

I'm surprised the Sharp does not get much interest here, in a demo it looked 2nd to none, but I could not determine the noise level which is major concern here given the comments some have made...

Havent seen the JVC, so cant comment.
But if have the need for an occassion brighter picture, ie, want to turn on the lights for a footbal game, etc...

then the sharp may be better as you can get over 900 lumens with the iris open.
So it offers more flexibility in different ambient light conditions.

I found in my demo the Sharp really excelled with the iris stopped down/closed, the image with it open looked washed out in comparision?

Stopped down the image was amazing, sharpness, color, true blacks, but it was a very controlled environment suited to projection.

I think that TomHuffman's surmise is pretty accurate, the biggest strength of the Sharp is color accuracy courtesty of CMS and also ANSI CR. I would only add a few things based on what I saw in the side by side demo at the Expo. One is that the degree to which one projector is better than another in a particular area is important. For example, the difference in sharpness with 1080p video content was barely noticeable. I suspect that a resolution test pattern would show this more clearly but for video content both projectors are very close and it shouldn't be enough of a reason to sway a buyer one way or another (assuming the convergence on the JVC is okay). The difference in light output by comparison is really big. The JVC is something like 2x brighter than the Sharp in high contrast mode and the high contrast mode is the only mode a serious enthusiast would use. I also found that In dark scenes the on/off CR advantage of the JVC could clearly be seen - the darks were darker and the small bright content brighter. In bright scenes where you would expect the ANSI CR advantage of the Sharp to dominate, I didn't see that much of a difference.

I was also surprised at how much dithering noise was reduced on the Sharp, but it's still there in the darker scenes, but much more muted than DLPs in the past. For people like me who see rainbows, the RBE on the Sharp was by far it's biggest weakness, which is probably why I preferred the Marantz 11S1 as far as DLPs go.

As far as color accuracy goes, the Sharp was set up so far from D65 at the Expo that it was impossible to gauge. My assumption though is that if properly setup the Sharp's color gamut should follow the standard perfectly. Gray scale tracking is a different issue though, I'm not sure yet which projector can be setup to best track D65 across the luminance range properly.

One of the biggest risk areas for the JVC is the QC and setup from the factory, especially with regards to shading/uniformity calibration. In the past JVC has done a reasonably good job in this respect, but we can only wait and listen to the reports from early buyers while also hoping that Wm will be able to calibrate this projector to the same level of accuracy he has achieved with past projectors.

Gray scale tracking is a different issue though, I'm not sure yet which projector can be setup to best track D65 across the luminance range properly.It can. In fact, the 20K's gray scale tracking out of the box is about the best I've seen. It only requires minor tweaks to get it as close to perfect as you'd care to bother with.

I'm surprised the Sharp does not get much interest here, in a demo it looked 2nd to none, but I could not determine the noise level which is major concern here given the comments some have made...I think that the primary reason that it doesn't get more attention is cost. This forum seems to be focus upon PJs that offer an especially good value, such as the Pearl and now the JVC. The 12K's MSRP is $12,000 (nearly double the RS-1), though the street price is considerably less. Even at street price it is 2-3 thousand more than either the Pearl or the RS-1.

I think that the primary reason that it doesn't get more attention is cost. This forum seems to be focus upon PJs that offer an especially good value, such as the Pearl and now the JVC. The 12K's MSRP is $12,000 (nearly double the RS-1), though the street price is considerably less. Even at street price it is 2-3 thousand more than either the Pearl or the RS-1.

I would also add that for RBE sensitive viewers (like myself) It cant even be considered. This is a deal breaker.

If your not prone to DLP headaches / rainbows, is the Sharp still the top 1080p projector under 9K?


There in lies the problem. From all reports the RS1 is the one to beat and its current price point (AVS prebuy) makes it stand out.

It can. In fact, the 20K's gray scale tracking out of the box is about the best I've seen. It only requires minor tweaks to get it as close to perfect as you'd care to bother with.

I think you're probably right. The anonymous reviewer of the HD1 shared the gray scale tracking curve with me and it was also good as far as OOB calibration goes. The potential pitfall with the JVC is that *if* the OOB calibration is not flat, then it's difficult to make it that way with the included adjustments. As far as we know the only current way to precisely adjust the tracking on the JVC is via the internal LUT's which means only JVC factory and William Phelps are able to fine tune it. So the QC at the JVC factory is also going to be an important factor in this area too (along with shading uniformity).

I think you're probably right. The anonymous review of the HD1 shared the gray scale tracking curve with me and it was also good as far as OOB calibration goes. The potential pitfall with the JVC is that *if* the OOB calibration is not flat, then it's difficult to make it that way with the included adjustments. As far as we know the only current way to precisely adjust the tracking on the JVC is via the internal LUT's which means only JVC factory and William Phelps are able to fine tune it. So the QC at the JVC factory is also going to be an important factor in this area too (along with shading uniformity).

True but let's not forget that with a decent VP, you make the needed adjustments. Not ideal but is a work around.

I think you're probably right. The anonymous review of the HD1 shared the gray scale tracking curve with me and it was also good as far as OOB calibration goes. The potential pitfall with the JVC is that *if* the OOB calibration is not flat, then it's difficult to make it that way with the included adjustments. As far as we know the only current way to precisely adjust the tracking on the JVC is via the internal LUT's which means only JVC factory and William Phelps are able to fine tune it. So the QC at the JVC factory is also going to be an important factor in this area too (along with shading uniformity).

Last William posted on the subject he said he was not sure if he would have access to the LUT, so I'm looking forward to an update on that when he has more info available.

Ideally I will have full control of this (happy to purchase software from William or JVC to access the LUT for DIY). For instance as the bulb ages I may purposely want to push things up at 100 IRE to get a bit more brightness and contrast out of the unit. Without access to the LUT I wouldn't be able to customize the grayscale to do this (or customize the gamma curve for that matter) without also ruining the grayscale from 10-90 IRE too.

Also if someone else did my LUT adjustments off site it would not account for the slight color shift caused by my Firehawk, etc. Oh, and not to mention that part of the fun of this hobby is tweaking. :)

Of course there is always the option of something like the Lumagen to get its 11 point calibration. However even that adds an unnecessary component / complexity into the chain I'd much rather do without. And to spend $ on an external scaler for this purpose which is nearly 50% of the cost of the pj just doesn't make much sense.

I really just don't get why they didn't provide a separate gain and offset/bias control. That's just such a basic control mechanism that just about every display offers at least in the service menu. Yes LUT offers far better control and customization, but only of course if we have access to it!

I really just don't get why they didn't provide a separate gain and offset/bias control. That's just such a basic control mechanism that just about every display offers at least in the service menu. Yes LUT offers far better control and customization, but only of course if we have access to it!

Has something changed? The JVC tech at the EHExpo told me that the prototype RS1 had gain and bias controls. He showed them to me in the PJs menu, though he didn't actually operate them in front of me. He told me that they calibrated the RS1 for the demo. He said the controls were going to be in the production version. It seems that I saw gain and offset controls in the menu published by Cine4Home's web site.

What gives?

Glenn

I think that TomHuffman's surmise is pretty accurate, the biggest strength of the Sharp is color accuracy courtesty of CMS and also ANSI CR. I would only add a few things based on what I saw in the side by side demo at the Expo. One is that the degree to which one projector is better than another in a particular area is important. For example, the difference in sharpness with 1080p video content was barely noticeable. I suspect that a resolution test pattern would show this more clearly but for video content both projectors are very close and it shouldn't be enough of a reason to sway a buyer one way or another (assuming the convergence on the JVC is okay). The difference in light output by comparison is really big. The JVC is something like 2x brighter than the Sharp in high contrast mode and the high contrast mode is the only mode a serious enthusiast would use. I also found that In dark scenes the on/off CR advantage of the JVC could clearly be seen - the darks were darker and the small bright content brighter. In bright scenes where you would expect the ANSI CR advantage of the Sharp to dominate, I didn't see that much of a difference.

I was also surprised at how much dithering noise was reduced on the Sharp, but it's still there in the darker scenes, but much more muted than DLPs in the past. For people like me who see rainbows, the RBE on the Sharp was by far it's biggest weakness, which is probably why I preferred the Marantz 11S1 as far as DLPs go.

As far as color accuracy goes, the Sharp was set up so far from D65 at the Expo that it was impossible to gauge. My assumption though is that if properly setup the Sharp's color gamut should follow the standard perfectly. Gray scale tracking is a different issue though, I'm not sure yet which projector can be setup to best track D65 across the luminance range properly.

One of the biggest risk areas for the JVC is the QC and setup from the factory, especially with regards to shading/uniformity calibration. In the past JVC has done a reasonably good job in this respect, but we can only wait and listen to the reports from early buyers while also hoping that Wm will be able to calibrate this projector to the same level of accuracy he has achieved with past projectors.

JVC has no issues with color shading etc. HX1 HX2 HD2K HD10K all were top notch. the only problem DILA techology still had till now: contrast ratio.
it's beyond believable what they did: times 10-15 the CR of the dila technology in 18months.

I saw both the Sharp and the JVC units at CES. I found the Sharp to be the best of the other projectors shown in the Central and South halls. A day later I saw the JVC RS 1 and found it to be marginally better, especially at providing detailed blacks. JVC also had a projection booth in which a direct comparison was made of the RS 1 with the Pearl. Hands down the colors were more vibrant and accurate, and the blacks were more detailed on the RS 1. No contest. I am very happy that I preordered the RS 1.

Where do you pre-order and how much is the JVC

THe preorder special is over. But we are still taking orders at normal pricing.
The Sharp is an excellent unit. In my opinion, the best in the under $10k range (of units that are out). I think it is true...Sharp is more money than many of the other 1080p units. This is the same reason the Sim2 HT3000, Marantz VP11S1, Runco RS1100, etc... aren't talked about that much. With so many good inexpensive offerings, the value is decreasing for the more expensive units.

Has something changed? The JVC tech at the EHExpo told me that the prototype RS1 had gain and bias controls. He showed them to me in the PJs menu, though he didn't actually operate them in front of me. He told me that they calibrated the RS1 for the demo. He said the controls were going to be in the production version. It seems that I saw gain and offset controls in the menu published by Cine4Home's web site.

What gives?

Glenn

The short of it is that in another thread a couple weeks back it came up that the HD1/RS1 did not have separate gain and offset/bias controls. That didn't seem to make sense to me - because what pj doesn't, right?

So I posted a question about this asking for clarification, along with cine4home's comments about the "offset" control and how it was for adjusting the dark levels, and a picture of the screen shot of that menu.

William Phelps who has a HD1 posted that based on prior experience (with other JVC units I believe) those controls may not do what we think they would do. He then spent considerable time testing this out on his HD1 and posted back that he concluded that indeed there are NOT separate controls for gain and offset/bias. And that the controls affect the RGB levels for the entire range.

Sorry to drop that on you like this, it is harsh I know. I was just as surprised when I heard this. How does such a state of the art pj not provide such as BASIC calibration control??

William said that typically a flat grayscale is achieved in these units using LUT but the technology in this pj is different and he wasn't sure if it was even possible to provide access to the LUT, and if it was, wasn't sure if JVC would provide the tools to do that. So far no word from JVC as far as I know.

From what we've heard it sounds like the factory calibration may be one of the best yet. However it certainly will not be a flat D65. And even if it was, we need the ability to make tweaks for our screen offsets (for gray screens for example), or to tweak as the bulb ages, or to calibrate with a new bulb due to its tolerances, or to customize our gamma curves etc etc.

Out of all the discussions up in the air such as lumens, ANSI CR, on/off CR, availability etc - this issue about lack of calibration control is the one I am most concerned about...

Has something changed? The JVC tech at the EHExpo told me that the prototype RS1 had gain and bias controls. He showed them to me in the PJs menu, though he didn't actually operate them in front of me. He told me that they calibrated the RS1 for the demo. He said the controls were going to be in the production version. It seems that I saw gain and offset controls in the menu published by Cine4Home's web site.

What gives?

Glenn
Nope, just 'Global' R, G and B not Gain or Bias pretty much like the old JVC SX-21 and some other JVC's projector models.
We'll see soon how well the factory setup did with their flat lined GS attempt. If it's not to our liking just get into William's lab for a quick and super accurate calibration.

I'll bet they are going to be pretty close to D65 out of the box, but not "nailed".
Do I like no Gain and Bias controls for the "techie" end user ?
Heck no. I'm sitting here with an AccuPel 3k and ColorFacts 6.1 myself but what can we do if those controls aren't there ?
If we just can't stand our RS1's not being perfectly perfect across the IRE's :) a trip to William's isn't that painful.

If we just can't stand our RS1's not being perfectly perfect across the IRE's :) a trip to William's isn't that painful.

Unfortunately its more than just that. There are several reasons why I need to be able to calibrate myself. First, pjs drift over time and I like to keep things tight. Its certainly not practical to ship the pj out every few hundred hours. Next, I'd like to avoid being without the pj for a week or two and risking damage during shipping. Also as mentioned earlier I may want to run things hot at 100 IRE to squeeze more brightness and CR. Also by tweaking in my HT I optimize for my exact screen.

And of course last but not least, I'm an avid tweaker and that's actually part of the fun of this hobby for me. Like you, sitting here with all the tools and no controls - when such controls are really standard in the industry - is a tough one to swallow.

That being said, I'd be happy to shell out some bucks to wm for a software tool that'll let me have access to these goodies.

lovingdvd,

Man I feel your pain.

I don't relish the thought of shelling out 2-4k more for a VP simply to get flatline across the spectrum. A VP has other value that some tend to overlook such as multiple input processing and switching, advanced scaling and deinterlacing options for TV (Dish/ Direct/ Comcast) etc....

I'm like you, though. I'm concerned about my screen's color shift and hence the need for an on-site, multipoint solution for adjusting color/ greyscale that can't be had by sending it into wm.

I hope JVC is seeing this...and it's not too late

lovingdvd,

Man I feel your pain.

I don't relish the thought of shelling out 2-4k more for a VP simply to get flatline across the spectrum. A VP has other value that some tend to overlook such as multiple input processing and switching, advanced scaling and deinterlacing options for TV (Dish/ Direct/ Comcast) etc....


With the Gennum in the RS1 I have no need for a VP besides grayscale assuming we cannot access the LUT. Agree about the switching capability but I only have HDMI outputs at this point and can solve that with a $70 switcher! :)



I'm like you, though. I'm concerned about my screen's color shift and hence the need for an on-site, multipoint solution for adjusting color/ greyscale that can't be had by sending it into wm.

I hope JVC is seeing this...and it's not too late

It will be interesting to see how this plays out. How this pj does not offer separate gain and bias/offset controls is beyond me...

I have limitted experience with both. We had the sharp for one of our HD DVD meets. And I spent a couple of hours with the RS-1, again with HD DVD. For me the choice is simple, and that is RS-1. The rainbows on the Sharp are really bad. As mentioned, the Marantz does better. Given how much I am bothered by this, it really makes no difference what else is better on the Sharp.

I have limitted experience with both. We had the sharp for one of our HD DVD meets. And I spent a couple of hours with the RS-1, again with HD DVD. For me the choice is simple, and that is RS-1. The rainbows on the Sharp are really bad. As mentioned, the Marantz does better. Given how much I am bothered by this, it really makes no difference what else is better on the Sharp.

It may not make much difference to you but it might to some of us...

What about the Sharp did you like better than the RS-1?

I have limitted experience with both. We had the sharp for one of our HD DVD meets. And I spent a couple of hours with the RS-1, again with HD DVD. For me the choice is simple, and that is RS-1. The rainbows on the Sharp are really bad. As mentioned, the Marantz does better. Given how much I am bothered by this, it really makes no difference what else is better on the Sharp.


I completely understand your feelings. I am very rainbow sensitive as well, and because of this, it simply does not matter how good a 1-chip DLP looks as the RBE is a deal breaker. I am really surprised more people are not sensitive to this as it basically smacks me in the face and never lets up.

This rainbow thing is really weird. It's really a small percentage of people who are bothered by this, yet for those who see them it's a deal-breaker. Most of us don't see them at all and find the obsession about this phantom artifact quite bizarre.

I can't think of any other aspect of projector performance about which there is such a perceptual disparity.

This rainbow thing is really weird. It's really a small percentage of people who are bothered by this, yet for those who see them it's a deal-breaker. Most of us don't see them at all and find the obsession about this phantom artifact quite bizarre.

I can't think of any other aspect of projector performance about which there is such a perceptual disparity.
Agreed. But here is the tough part. I used to not see them at all. But one day out of the blue, I started to see them. And once you are there, you can never go back unfortunately.

I completely understand your feelings. I am very rainbow sensitive as well, and because of this, it simply does not matter how good a 1-chip DLP looks as the RBE is a deal breaker. I am really surprised more people are not sensitive to this as it basically smacks me in the face and never lets up.

In my case I am not sensitive at all to rainbows. What kept me focused on the RS1 over the 20K was mainly the RS1's higher on/off CR, its higher lumens (I would be ok probably with the 20K but want the extra brightness from the RS1) and its significantly lower $. At the rate these technologies are changing, the less I need to invest in a pj the better as long as it can deliver exceptional performance. What is really wild is that from the sounds of things the RS1 would be my choice at any budget.

What about the Sharp did you like better than the RS-1?
Nother better yet other than more comforting data on the Sharp. It, like the Marantz fully resolved 1080p. I did not have my test discs with me to test the RS-1 in this respect.

Nother better yet other than more comforting data on the Sharp. It, like the Marantz fully resolved 1080p. I did not have my test discs with me to test the RS-1 in this respect.

Thanks Amirm. For reference what test discs / patterns do you use to confirm a device is fully resolving 1080p?

Thanks Amirm. For reference what test discs / patterns do you use to confirm a device is fully resolving 1080p?
Stace Spears (sspears) has created a number of test discs for us (nice to have a guy like that working in your group :)). We use those. We also have pre-release tests discs of Joe Kane's DVE (we are helping him with the HD DVD).

This rainbow thing is really weird. It's really a small percentage of people who are bothered by this, yet for those who see them it's a deal-breaker. Most of us don't see them at all and find the obsession about this phantom artifact quite bizarre.

I can't think of any other aspect of projector performance about which there is such a perceptual disparity.

Yeah the RBE effect is strange how some people seem to be affected by it and others aren't. I think the percentage of those who see it is much more than a small percentage though. Tradeshows are a great way to judge something like this because of the high amount of foot traffic that comes in. At the Expo it seemed as though a majority of the people there could see the RBE on the Sharp and commented on it. There was only one person that I met there who said that he has never seen rainbows so I waved my finger rapidly back and forth in front of the lens of the Sharp (which creates a pronounced rainbow) and showed him what it looks like. He could readily see that. He might be hating me now though because he probably sees them all the time now lol.

Yeah the RBE effect is strange how some people seem to be affected by it and others aren't. I think the percentage of those who see it is much more than a small percentage though. Tradeshows are a great way to judge something like this because of the high amount of foot traffic that comes in. At the Expo it seemed as though a majority of the people there could see the RBE on the Sharp and commented on it. There was only one person that I met there who said that he has never seen rainbows so I waved my finger rapidly back and forth in front of the lens of the Sharp (which creates a pronounced rainbow) and showed him what it looks like. He could readily see that. He might be hating me now though because he probably sees them all the time now lol.

Yeah, that's just evil. :)

Yeah, that's just evil. :)

It's my duty as an AVS member to make sure that I spread the evil, er I mean help inform people lol. I think life would have been a lot simpler if I hadn't found AVS and learned about RBE, SDE, macro-blocking, EE, mosquito noise, color accuracy, etc. etc....

Amir,

"And once you are there, you can never go back unfortunately."

You never know; many people have gotten DLP's and seen RBE and even gotten headaches, but after a week (a few years ago they were so much better in CR than anything else that people were desperate to make them work) they subsided and RBE was seen only occasionally or not at all.

But that's academic now; no reason not to just get the RS1.

Amir,

"And once you are there, you can never go back unfortunately."

You never know; many people have gotten DLP's and seen RBE and even gotten headaches, but after a week (a few years ago they were so much better in CR than anything else that people were desperate to make them work) they subsided and RBE was seen only occasionally or not at all.

But that's academic now; no reason not to just get the RS1.


Price comes to mind.

It's not just rainbows with DLP. I start feeling eye fatigue after only a few minutes of watching a single chip DLP, even a rear projector set unless there is a fairly high level of ambient light. In a HT environment, I will have a splitting headache within about 15 minutes of viewing. Like Amir, it doesn't make any difference how good a particular aspect of the Sharp or Marantz is, the overall experience is PAINFUL. It is LCOS or LCD technology for me.

For all you young guys, the AVS effect may be the most important reason for staying away from single chip DLPs. :D

I start feeling eye fatigue after only a few minutes of watching a single chip DLP, even a rear projector set unless there is a fairly high level of ambient light.This experience is shared by an even fewer number of people than those who have sensitivity to rainbows.

I've never seen any objective data on the percentage of those who are sufficiently sensitive to rainbows that they find the experience unpleasant. However, TI has sold so many of these things (front and rear projectors) to satisfied customers and so many people who have modern DLPs installed in their home theater or living room have had dozens of guests none of whom have complained about headaches or unwatchable artifacts suggests to me that the number of affected consumers is relatively small.

There may be a larger percentage of the rainbow-sensitive in the enthusiast community-- who are unusually attuned to relatively small variances in display performance--than in the general population.

I rarely see rainbows. The only time I see them is when there is a black background with white text or something similar to that.

Even then, I have to move my eyes left to right, fairly quick, to see rainbows.

:eek: Yea, no rainbows for me, but DLP gives me distinct headaches, regularly, after about an hour.
I am excited about the JVC.

Might the Sharp's price come down once the RS-1 actually appears?

I'm the same situation as you. I cannot see any rainbows no matter how hard I try, but the headaches come for sure.
I finally got the Panny AE900 last year as a stop gap measure ... the RS1 maybe the home run for me!
:eek: Yea, no rainbows for me, but DLP gives me distinct headaches, regularly, after about an hour.
I am excited about the JVC.

Has anyone done a controlled double-blind test on RBE to see how real versus perceived this effect really is?

I have no doubt that some people see rainbows, but I also believe that the power of suggestion is very strong and is enough to convince some people they see them when they really don't.

There may be a larger percentage of the rainbow-sensitive in the enthusiast community-- who are unusually attuned to relatively small variances in display performance--than in the general population.

Yup, I think this is definitely the case for not just RBE, but also other artifacts and facets of PQ in general. For me personally, RBE doesn't create headaches but it is disorienting which puts it at a level above distraction. I can see why they don't use 1-chip DLP in flightsims as it would probably add to the sense of vertigo.

Has anyone done a controlled double-blind test on RBE to see how real versus perceived this effect really is?

I have no doubt that some people see rainbows, but I also believe that the power of suggestion is very strong and is enough to convince some people they see them when they really don't.

I don't really agree with this because if a person sees rainbows it's not a subtle effect where a person says, "yeah I kinda think I may see it a little". The Marantz is an interesting case because it doesn't color separate as much as other 1-chip DLP, but when it does happen it's also not subtle, it's just that it doesn't happen as often.

The only DLP projector I've ever used is the Infocus 4805. I never saw any rainbows on it but I did experience eye fatigue and slight headaches. I resolved that by getting a ND filter. After using that I never had the problem again.

There in lies the problem. From all reports the RS1 is the one to beat and its current price point (AVS prebuy) makes it stand out.
Why call the AVS prebuy the current price point when it's not? It's just frustrating for those who missed out.

THe preorder special is over. But we are still taking orders at normal pricing.

Has anyone done a controlled double-blind test on RBE to see how real versus perceived this effect really is?

I have no doubt that some people see rainbows, but I also believe that the power of suggestion is very strong and is enough to convince some people they see them when they really don't.


The first time I saw rainbows, I had never even heard of RBE. My GF thought I was crazy because every few minutes I was like "did you see that?" "did you see that trail?" She could not see it at all, but it was terrible for me, and I can spot them on any 1-chip DLP now. What you are saying may happen in some cases, but if somebody truly see rainbows, it is not from the power of suggestion. It is real, and it is a deal breaker.

I use to see rainbows and get the occasional headache but after having a dlp for a while, my eyes adjusted. It may have also been the environement. I sometimes see RBE but it doesn't bug me and I don't get headaches anymore.

As far as the RS-1 pre-buy special, I'll bet my left nut that it's widely available at the pre-buy price or better and I don't even know what the pre-buy price is. Remember, there's no shortage of $3 whores and there is no shortage of dealers wanting to sell projectors. :)

I use to see rainbows and get the occasional headache but after having a dlp for a while, my eyes adjusted. It may have also been the environement. I sometimes see RBE but it doesn't bug me and I don't get headaches anymore.

As far as the RS-1 pre-buy special, I'll bet my left nut that it's widely available at the pre-buy price or better and I don't even know what the pre-buy price is. Remember, there's no shortage of $3 whores and there is no shortage of dealers wanting to sell projectors. :)


I wish I could get used to rainbows, as I tried for a month in my home and it never got any better :( Not saying I would get a DLP at that point, but atleast it could be an option.

At least initially, I will bet my right nut that you are wrong :p

Seriously, the pre-buy price was fantastic, and it will take some time to get to that price, not to mention lower. I definately do not see this happening at launch or soon after.

....

As far as the RS-1 pre-buy special, I'll bet my left nut that it's widely available at the pre-buy price or better and I don't even know what the pre-buy price is. Remember, there's no shortage of $3 whores and there is no shortage of dealers wanting to sell projectors. :)

MMMMmmm, not sure I'd put my left nut on the chopping block so easily... :)

I am very sensitive to rainbows, and I do see them on the Sharp 20K, but they have actually diminished over the few months that I have owned the projector. At first I thought it was going to be a problem, but I found, that as I calibrated the projector, and found the right light output, the tendancy to se the rainbows decreased. Also, I notice that they are much more apparent on really crappy source material. I don't know why that is, but it seems to be that way, and I don't watch a lot of poor material.

Anyway, bottom line, for me is, that the pro's outweigh the cons on the Sharp, as it is such a spectacular image. I still own a Sim2 C3X 3 chip which has no RBE, and I have not felt the need to switch out the Sharp for it.

As for the RS1, I am on the pre-order list, and look forward to comparing the two projectors when I get it, and will certainly post my observations when I do.

I am very sensitive to rainbows, and I do see them on the Sharp 20K, but they have actually diminished over the few months that I have owned the projector. At first I thought it was going to be a problem, but I found, that as I calibrated the projector, and found the right light output, the tendancy to se the rainbows decreased. Also, I notice that they are much more apparent on really crappy source material. I don't know why that is, but it seems to be that way, and I don't watch a lot of poor material.

Anyway, bottom line, for me is, that the pro's outweigh the cons on the Sharp, as it is such a spectacular image. I still own a Sim2 C3X 3 chip which has no RBE, and I have not felt the need to switch out the Sharp for it.

As for the RS1, I am on the pre-order list, and look forward to comparing the two projectors when I get it, and will certainly post my observations when I do.

Indeed that will be excellent so I can't wait to hear your comparisons. What we'll have going there is basically the best of both technology breeds (IMO, at least within a reasonable budget) going toe-to-toe. Very interesting...

Why call the AVS prebuy the current price point when it's not? It's just frustrating for those who missed out.

Dont feel too bad for missing out.
Just wait until the projector is actually available for a month or so, and I'll bet you will be able to get the "pre-buy" price minus 10%.

Wait 3-4 months and it may be "pre-buy" price minus 25%.

I really just don't get why they didn't provide a separate gain and offset/bias control. That's just such a basic control mechanism that just about every display offers at least in the service menu. Yes LUT offers far better control and customization, but only of course if we have access to it!

The RS1 was going to be the first JVC DILA that I know of to have gain and bias controls. In the past, gray scale calibration was done with proprietary JVC software.

There are other displays that only have a single global adustment for RGB. Some of them do almost as good a job as having both gain and bias controls. Others, do not. So it is possible that a single control will prove to be close to adequate, though I doubt it. Implementing gain and bias controls would be preferable, or providing the proper software to correct gray scale.

I am surprised that JVC would fail to understand this. Their US reps seemed to get it well enough.

Glenn

The RS1 was going to be the first JVC DILA that I know of to have gain and bias controls. In the past, gray scale calibration was done with proprietary JVC software.

There are other displays that only have a single global adustment for RGB. Some of them do almost as good a job as having both gain and bias controls. Others, do not. So it is possible that a single control will prove to be close to adequate, though I doubt it. Implementing gain and bias controls would be preferable, or providing the proper software to correct gray scale.

I am surprised that JVC would fail to understand this. Their US reps seemed to get it well enough.

Glenn

Some suggest the lack of separate controls for gain and bias/offset was a cost cutting measure, but I'd be surprised if that was the case. Perhaps it is much more complicated than normal because of their internal design. I don't know. All I do know is that this is the only real outstanding concern I have about the RS1 at this time. All things considered I guess that is a good thing.

Some suggest the lack of separate controls for gain and bias/offset was a cost cutting measure, but I'd be surprised if that was the case. Perhaps it is much more complicated than normal because of their internal design. I don't know. All I do know is that this is the only real outstanding concern I have about the RS1 at this time. All things considered I guess that is a good thing.

Assuming the RS1 is very close to D65 OOTB, is not having seperate controls for gain and bias really that big of a deal?

Assuming the RS1 is very close to D65 OOTB, is not having seperate controls for gain and bias really that big of a deal?

Yes, it could still be a big deal. The big question is how well it holds up down low, say below 30 IRE and in particular below 10 IRE where things really start to fall about (at least with many pjs).

With the RS1's stellar contrast and incredible abilities with very dark scenes I think it'll be critical that the very low end (say 5-20 IRE) be very flat, and just as much as as the rest of the grayscale.

For example even if it has say a dE of 8 at 10 IRE because it is a bit too green at that level, but has dE of 0-5 from 20-100 IRE, its still going to look quite poor in very dark scenes. This is an extreme example just to demonstrate the ability of having a truly flat grayscale over the ENTIRE range. JVC has pulled off so much with this pj that perhaps this breakthru has also enabled them to have a perfectly flat grayscale the whole way.

I don't know of any other pj that can do this with just a factory calibration, so we'll have to wait and get more details. Hopefully cine4home can measure that low and we'll soon find out.

"Assuming the RS1 is very close to D65 OOTB, is not having seperate controls for gain and bias really that big of a deal?"

Cinema4home said yesterday that he got another unit for test and that colors were close enough that it's not a concern.

"Assuming the RS1 is very close to D65 OOTB, is not having seperate controls for gain and bias really that big of a deal?"

Cinema4home said yesterday that he got another unit for test and that colors were close enough that it's not a concern.

I hope that is the case, but its way to early to say that it is not a concern. At least for me it will remain a concern until I hear that the unit has a dE between 0 and 3 for the ENTIRE range 5-100 IRE. If its a little off here and there its still not much of a concern, but if the dE goes to say 5 or higher at any point that would not be good news. I will be very impressed if they found a way to get it that flat across the entire range.

Has something changed? The JVC tech at the EHExpo told me that the prototype RS1 had gain and bias controls. He showed them to me in the PJs menu, though he didn't actually operate them in front of me. He told me that they calibrated the RS1 for the demo. He said the controls were going to be in the production version. It seems that I saw gain and offset controls in the menu published by Cine4Home's web site.


I'll bet that these controls were labelled "Gain" and "Offset". I find no "Bias" controls in the menus. Are you sure there was such a control?

The Offset control is just that. It's action is essentially the same as the "Gain" controls in the "User" color temp selections but it is global to all color temp selections.

I am still fascinated by this desire for gain and bias controls. Why would you want to adjust only 2 points? And why add another stage of processing, which will add noise and artifacts to the image?

JVC has an excellent track record for having a flat grayscale. Each new projector model has been better in this regard. The actual chromaticity of the line (dE for those who prefer that) usually needs adjustment, but that is easily done with the existing controls. I think you guys are far more worried about this than you need to be, at least until we've seen a few production model projectors.

William

Sorry to drop that on you like this, it is harsh I know. I was just as surprised when I heard this. How does such a state of the art pj not provide such as BASIC calibration control??

Perhaps you need to adjust your idea of "state of the art"...

First of all, this is a consumer level projector, certainly *not* state of the art as far as I am concerned.

That said, I would argue that "state of the art" is to have far more than 2 adjustments to try to get a flat grayscale!!! You simply cannot do this with only 2 adjustments. For example, what do you do if you have a curve that shows excellent tracking at both the low and high ends, but a significant error in the middle? Bias and Gain controls do nothing to help this. Give me 1024 adjustments any day!!! (or a more practical set of 32 with interpolation, but no less than this)

Of course you need access to them to adjust them, and that is a significant consderation if you want to do your own tweaking. No argument there at all.

William

The Offset control is just that. It's action is essentially the same as the "Gain" controls in the "User" color temp selections but it is global to all color temp selections.


Should I infer then that the Gain control is not global to all color temp selections? I'm not sure if you are saying that the Gain control does the high end, while the offset control does both ends?


I am still fascinated by this desire for gain and bias controls. Why would you want to adjust only 2 points? And why add another stage of processing, which will add noise and artifacts to the image?


I have desire for gain and bias controls as a way to tweak the high end and low end separately. Of course access to the LUT would be FAR BETTER. I completely agree with you here 100%. However it seems as though we will not have access to the LUT. So I desire gain and bias controls so at least I have SOMETHING to work with to flatten the grayscale.

Case in point - with my Ruby I used its gain and offset controls to have a dE of 0-3 from 10-100 with a dE of 8 at 5 IRE. I consider that "flat enough". If I can get the same out of the RS1 without access to the LUT and without separate gain and offset controls (that function as one would think) then I will be happy. Otherwise I will be bitter that they left out controls that are standard with most pjs (separate controls for the low end and high end) and no access to LUT...


JVC has an excellent track record for having a flat grayscale. Each new projector model has been better in this regard. The actual chromaticity of the line (dE for those who prefer that) usually needs adjustment, but that is easily done with the existing controls. I think you guys are far more worried about this than you need to be, at least until we've seen a few production model projectors.


Great to hear they have a good track record for having a flat grayscale. However I know that typically things tend to fall apart some down low say below 20 IRE and below 10 IRE. If they kept it flat down in that range I would be quite psyched.

Perhaps you need to adjust your idea of "state of the art"...

First of all, this is a consumer level projector, certainly *not* state of the art as far as I am concerned.

That said, I would argue that "state of the art" is to have far more than 2 adjustments to try to get a flat grayscale!!! You simply cannot do this with only 2 adjustments. For example, what do you do if you have a curve that shows excellent tracking at both the low and high ends, but a significant error in the middle? Bias and Gain controls do nothing to help this. Give me 1024 adjustments any day!!! (or a more practical set of 32 with interpolation, but no less than this)


I agree 100%. We are on the same page. Given my choice of one or the other I'd certainly take the LUT. But being given a choice of neither is my concern.


Of course you need access to them to adjust them, and that is a significant consderation if you want to do your own tweaking. No argument there at all.


Yes, that's my point exactly. We agree 100%. In summary:

- I'd love access to the LUT; this is the best case scenario

- If I can't have access to the LUT, then I would at least expect to control the high end separately from the low end. Yes it leaves you SOL for errors in the middle but still gives you SOMETHING to work with (better than nothing at all)

Agreed. But here is the tough part. I used to not see them at all. But one day out of the blue, I started to see them. And once you are there, you can never go back unfortunately.


this is not true in any way! and spreading this wrong info here as if it is a fact.... shame on you!

I havent seen a JVC but very keen on doing so, the sharp however BLEW ME AWAY the first time I saw it...and the second time.... I think its the best home cinema projector ever.

...I havent seen a JVC but very keen on doing so, the sharp however BLEW ME AWAY the first time I saw it...and the second time.... I think its the best home cinema projector ever.
this is not true in any way! and spreading this wrong info here as if it is a fact.... shame on you!

this is not true in any way! and spreading this wrong info here as if it is a fact.... shame on you!

I havent seen a JVC but very keen on doing so, the sharp however BLEW ME AWAY the first time I saw it...and the second time.... I think its the best home cinema projector ever.



this is not true in any way! and spreading this wrong info here as if it is a fact.... shame on you! :D

Sorry. I could not resist that :)

Seriously though, I had the exact same experience as amirm. I did not see them immediately, but once I did (it did not take long) now I can always see them. This is a very real problem for those that see them, and can be a deal breaker (for me and amirm it is). There have been many comments from folks on seeing rainbows on the Sharp.

If you dont see them though, that is great as you have more options than the RBE impaired bunch which includes myself :eek:

Seriously though, I had the exact same experience as amirm. I did not see them immediately, but once I did (it did not take long) now I can always see them. This is a very real problem for those that see them, and can be a deal breaker (for me and amirm it is). There have been many comments from folks on seeing rainbows on the Sharp.

Damn, Toe!

this is not true in any way! and spreading this wrong info here as if it is a fact.... shame on you!

Are you coldmachine? 8)

I just finally read Greg Rogers' 20000 review in WSR.

Sounds like a tough act to follow, especially the 800+:1 ANSI CR and depth of image that gives to mixed brightness scenes.

If they only didn't cost such a premium to the Pearl, I'd have one here now.

I've never seen a rainbow, and find DLP hard to beat for sharpness and contrast.

Have some concerns about higher quoted noise level, and lack of 1080p/24?
Still very interested if a decent deal is found on one new or used.

The throw is very long for the Sharp, so won't work for some (such as me). The RS1 is incredibly flexible re location.

The throw is very long for the Sharp, so won't work for some (such as me). The RS1 is incredibly flexible re location.

Yes, that's an issue too, but I could still get a 92" screen to work with a bit of effort, and I figure I only have to install it once. The JVC is much easier for sure.

I think in the end both should put out a exceptional image for movies, and the Sharp could exceed for Live Sports and PC use with its pixel perfect 'Sharp' display.

I'm on AVS's list to call when a RS-1 can be ordered but I think it may be a while given that everyone seems to be on the 'pre-order' list :(

Revived!

Anyone care to give their insight on what is better 8 months later? I am interested to know!

From a thread in the "other" forum:
I just got it in time for the weekend thanks to Jason! I have only had a few hours to tweak it a bit and play with it, but so far I like it a LOT! Although I can't compare it to the Marantz, as I haven't seen it, I can definitely see some immediate improvements over the RS-1:

1. Intrascene contrast - The Sharp is a rather huge leap over the RS-1 in terms of image depth and intrascene contrast in all but the very darkest of scenes. The difference is in no way subtle, so when people who have seen both projectors reported seeing very little difference between them, I don't know what they are watching to make such comments. To my eyes the difference is quite dramatic and obvious. This is probably the single biggest difference I noticed right off the bat.

2. Sharpness - The Sharp is noticeably sharper than the RS-1 by a fair margin also. You have to keep in mind that I am watching on a 139" wide screen, and I am sure that on a smaller screen these differences might not be noticed, but once an image is blown up that large it is pretty easy to see. The difference in sharpness is not huge, but it is there and can be seen. If the Marantz is even sharper, then that is something I would like to see...:)

3. Color and brightness uniformity - Again, this is easy to see on a very large screen, especially on shots with large amounts of color sprawling across the screen. The uniformity in both color and brightness is quite striking and can be easily verified by putting up full field color patterns.

4. Video noise - Although this is listed 4th, it was actually the second most noticeable improvement over the RS-1. With sources that contain grain and/or noise, it is nowhere as noticeable on the Sharp even though the Sharp is the sharper projector. It is such a relief to not be staring at noise/grain with so many sources any more - it really allows me to enjoy watching movies and HD to a much larger degree. The noise/grain is still there (it is in the source, after all), but it simply is not so much "in your face" - I actually have to look for it now, where before I could not escape from it.

Those are my first positive thoughts. Now the bad (that is not as bad as it seems :) ):

1. Color accuracy - I haven't had the time to take any measurements yet, but I can tell just by watching it that the colors are off - flesh tones are too reddish, greens are oversaturated. If I had no control over the color then I would be very disappointed. BUT, the good news is that the Sharp has a full CMS, and once I have burned the lamp in for a few more hours I will do a full calibration. With a similar CMS to what is included in the Z12k, I have very high confidence that I will be able to fully calibrate this projector to color perfection, and that change alone will bring this unit to a totally different level of performance, or at least for me.

2. Brightness - I am watching in high contrast, low lamp right now, and though it is plenty bright enough on a new lamp, even on my very large High Power, I don't have much confidence that I will be to leave it set that way for very long. Moving it to high lamp is too bright, but once the lamp loses some of its initial brightness it should be about right.

So, my first impressions are that the Z20k is a substantial improvement over the RS-1, and once I get the color dialed in I am sure that it will bring it to completely different level altogether. The razor sharp, high contrast, low noise picture is stunning, and once again I am impressed with what I am seeing on screen.

As an aside, the Sharp has an "unveil" control which is an interesting sharpening filter of some sort. It has 3 levels of usage, and used on the lowest setting I find it quite effective in sharpening less than pristine sources without adding any additional EE - a very nice filter if used properly.
and then after calibration:
Ok, I just MADE the time to do at least a "quick" calibration (about 2 hours), and even though I still would like to tweak the grayscale a wee bit more, I was able to very easily dial in the color decoding (which only needed very minor tweaking) and most importantly, I was able to get all primaries and secondaries dead nuts on target ("dead nuts on" is a technical term :D ). The difference in color accuracy and rendition is nothing short of AMAZING! :)

Sharp must be following the lead of other manufacturers, as I found the green primary very oversaturated, the red primary almost as oversaturated, and the blue primary only slightly oversaturated, yielding unnatural, cartoonish colors. THANK GOD FOR CMS!! The CMS in this projector, though the user interface was a little bit more cumbersome to use, worked EXTREMELY well and I had no trouble dialing things quickly and accurately, as all controls behaved properly and as expected (thanks to Tom's info in his original Sharp thread).

The colors are now very very punchy and pop just as much as before, but now are deadly accurate. Flesh tones are wonderful - reds look, well, RED, and it is so nice to see proper shades of green once again. The color rendition now looks even better than on my Z12k, though the Z12k is pretty darned good also.

I highly recommend that anyone who buys this projector have it ISF calibrated, as I feel that it has moved its performance into a whole other performance category. As excited as I was when I first got the projector, I am thoroughly thrilled with its performance now.

A few technical details: Like I said, I had to reduce green and red saturation considerably (in the -15 to -18 range) while I moved blue saturation down just a few clicks. I also had to adjust the hues a bit, but I don't remember how much. Grayscale could still use some improvement, but I am within dE of 3 from 20 to 90 IRE, while 10 and 100 IRE are around dE of 9. I'll play around when I have more time, but it is good enough for a "quickie". Color decoding only required a very small boost to blue while the general "color" control was moved down to -3. The default values for both luminance and saturation were high, as you can see by the changes I made and which were very visually apparent as well.

I'm going back to enjoy it now...:D
Now that I have watched it for awhile fully calibrated, my only complaint is that I wish it were brighter on my very large screen. The image it throws is awesome and as far as I am concerned, a rather large step up from the RS-1.

Oh, and BTW, I didn't need to spend $4k for a Radiance in order to get the colors right...;) The CMS on the Sharp is fully developed, works great, and is capable of doing all that is necessary to obtain perfect color.

From a thread in the "other" forum:

and then after calibration:

Now that I have watched it for awhile fully calibrated, my only complaint is that I wish it were brighter on my very large screen. The image it throws is awesome and as far as I am concerned, a rather large step up from the RS-1.

Oh, and BTW, I didn't need to spend $4k for a Radiance in order to get the colors right...;) The CMS on the Sharp is fully developed, works great, and is capable of doing all that is necessary to obtain perfect color.

Bob - glad you are enjoying the 20K! What lumens are you measuring post-calibration?

So it is a better idea to get the Sharp and not wait for the JVC RS2?

The Sharp is one of the projectors where you get the horrid prismatic (rainbow) colors if you move your eyes or head correct? I always thought it was just the cheap data projectors that did that. It's unwatchable to me. Someone in another thread mentioned the Sharp doing it too, is that correct? Does the sharp have the same rainbow effect as the cheaper data projectors?

DLP Rainbow effect.

The Sharp is one of the projectors where you get the horrid prismatic (rainbow) colors if you move your eyes or head correct? I always thought it was just the cheap data projectors that did that. It's unwatchable to me. Someone in another thread mentioned the Sharp doing it too, is that correct? Does the sharp have the same rainbow effect as the cheaper data projectors?

Correct, but unless you are having some pretty massive sex while watching a porno, why would you need to move your head and eyes that fast? 8) And if you are having massive sex .. who cares about the rainbows. Your woman, or man, is gonna think that its just your mad crazy love!

Correct, but unless you are having some pretty massive sex while watching a porno, why would you need to move your head and eyes that fast? 8) And if you are having massive sex .. who cares about the rainbows. Your woman, or man, is gonna think that its just your mad crazy love!

I love the image from the Sharp but I've seen rainbows on it. As far as eye movement, since I'm looking at having quite a large screen and an "immersive" seating distance, I'm afraid that would exacerbate rainbow problems (given a closer viewing ratio will likely entail more "scanning" eye movement).

Yes, I was just having some fun, Rich! 8) Im fortunate I havent been susceptible to rainbows and I skip over any rainbow tests as I dont want to start seeing them, either. 8)

I love the HD1/RS1. I dont think you can go wrong with either of them.

Ahhh, the Sharp is a DLP. That makes more sense. It didn't seem right since I never saw all the jaggy rainbow trails on my previous Sharp, but that was an older LCD. On a 159" my eyes are scanning all over in awe of the image, the rainbows would drive me nuts. Even on smaller screens I found myself constantly shifting just to convince myself I was really seeing all those 60's colors tracing all the images, very disturbing to watch a movie on, okay for graphs and spreadsheets though. Do you think those rainbows are spot on to Rec709? :P

So it is better to get the RS2?

From a thread in the "other" forum:

and then after calibration:

Now that I have watched it for awhile fully calibrated, my only complaint is that I wish it were brighter on my very large screen. The image it throws is awesome and as far as I am concerned, a rather large step up from the RS-1.

Oh, and BTW, I didn't need to spend $4k for a Radiance in order to get the colors right...;) The CMS on the Sharp is fully developed, works great, and is capable of doing all that is necessary to obtain perfect color.
I'm glad to hear you really like the Sharp. Out of curiosity, why didn't you go with the HT380 or 3000E (Sim2)? I would think that might be a better fit for you...

He thought that the HT380 was dimmer, based on its weaker bulb. He had stated elsewhere that if he knew that the HT380 was brighter he would have looked at it. I dont think he really considered it thinking it was dimmer.

That makes sense, they just seem ideal for Bob.

I wouldn't mind owning the new Marantz or either of the Sim2 PJs, but I just can't get myself to spend that kind of money on a PJ anymore. These things are almost becoming disposable the way they deprecate and technology continues to make huge leaps forward. If the much hyped D7 LCD PJs are close to being as nice as everyone is saying, I might pick up one or two as my next "disposable". I do think I'll miss DLP though... we'll see. :)

Yeah, it seems like what he is looking for. Brighter DLP, with CMS soon.


I am contemplating the 11S2, as long as its not unreasonably much more, and if it has noticeable improvement over the 15S1. After deciding on that, whether I stay with the 15S1, or go with the 11S2 I am going to make myself hold on for a while.

Its hard to imagine much improvement over what I am seeing now but if I can have the same black floor with a little more brightness, that comes from DC4 and the 7 segment wheel, it could be worth it.

I still havent taken down my ND2, at it is tightly placed on my Panamorph lens which is not far from my PJ lens. I will take a ladder to it today and try that out.

The picture looked very decent, and noticeably brighter, when millerwill and I watched a few scenes in iris 3 and the brightness at iris 1 (wihtout ND2) and iris 3 with ND2 are very close, but you do get to keep the CR higher at iris 1.

I dont want to keep changing PJs every 6 months to a year like I have been these past few years, though, and there is a lot to be said for me about the DLP picture specially when I am able to achieve the blacks that I can while preferring that image over a brighter/lighter black one.