what do you tell friends/neighbors who dont see the difference when viewing BD /HD movies as compared to a good 1080P upsampled DVD disk?
I have a ruby, rotel 1080P dvd and PS3 for BD. I have displayed both DVD and BD movies and everyone says they look EQUALLY great over the ruby. The difference of the BD is like night and day to me- better clarity, more saturated colors, sharper, better contrast etc.
The issue is - is it me hoping to see differences that aren't really there or do my friends not see the difference before them? Is it all in my head or am I a technology shill?
D

You tell them "No Theater For You!" right before throwing your popcorn in their face. :D

Most people are amazingly dull towards image quality and nuances... they're watching the film, not the pixels. That kind of naive wonder is something I'm still trying to get myself back to, because it makes enjoying film all that much better.

Invariably what I do is set things up the way I like them, because it's my theater after all, and people just have to watch what I put up. And even when I put up trash, it's still all 'ooh' and 'aah'--though most of the time I settle for nothing but the best re-release on the highest resolution format. Then when I go over to their house for a change, I see their 32" first-gen LCD TV (positioned like the king of the room) and the whopping 20-strong DVD movie collection, most of which are marked 'fullscreen', and die a little inside. :confused:

(I'm just kidding, but yeah, we're all technology shills here.)

"Congratulations - you won't need to spend nearly as much as me to be happy!"

Seriously.

To each his own. Some people don't see value in a high end car vs. a basic car. Everyone is different in that regard.

To each his own. Some people don't see value in a high end car vs. a basic car. Everyone is different in that regard.

Most people can atleast understand the *difference* between a Lamborghini and a Ford, and everyone would get it the instant that the gas pedal was pressed in the Lamb.

I can't tell you how many people stare at something that is clearly superior in every way and say, "Oh, is this different? I don't see it."

It was quite funny. The other day I had 3 friends of mine over to see my theater. I did a demo to compare the differences between HD DVD and basic DVD. 2 of my friends were floored. One of them said, "Wow, HD DVD looks perfect." Another one said, "Yeah dude, DVD sucks now."

And the third one said, "You guys can see a difference? Really?"

I think a good slap to the head might clear that up.

True, but that is a larger spread of analogy. I was thinking more like Lexus vs. Toyota. I think anyone would see the difference between a SP4805 and a Runco SC1. :)

Jason (not that Jason, some other Jason :)) tells me that if you put a great HD-DVD porn flick on, they can't even tell the difference between a pair of roller skates and a Harley.

I understand the value difference but I am not talking about value. Most people think I am crazy what I spend on HT and cars! I am talking about what they see. They honestly believe they see no difference, independent of value. How do we educate them to get these people on the BD bandwagon or do we just give up and let HD and BD be relegated to the niche market and early adopters??

I understand the value difference but I am not talking about value. Most people think I am crazy what I spend on HT and cars! I am talking about what they see. They honestly believe they see no difference, independent of value. How do we educate them to get these people on the BD bandwagon or do we just give up and let HD and BD be relegated to the niche market and early adopters??

To the average girl, all diamonds are beautiful. Just owning a diamond, especially a big one, is something to brag about.

To someone who is "into" diamonds, there's a big difference between the crap they sell at Zales and a high quality rock. Can you see the difference? Can the average joe?

Mostly people recognize the sparkle. Yes, a high quality diamond that is cut well will sparkle more than the average diamond, but 9 out of 10 people shop at the mall and are happy and would not appreciate the difference in cut if you explained it to them -- and you'd have to explain it to them, believe me.

It's similar with video gear. I am constantly amazed at what people can't see.

Its like high end audio. Some people save to have Wilsons and others think there is no better than Bose. If one believes there is no real better than what one has, one will never be unhappy for not having something better. So lets all crusade and make the rest miserable. :)

Its like high end audio. Some people save to have Wilsons and others think there is no better than Bose. If one believes there is no real better than what one has, one will never be unhappy for not having something better. So lets all crusade and make the rest miserable. :)

Here here!

This reminds me of a story I heard quite a while ago when a very famous audiophile participated in a double blind test between a tube amp and a transistor amp. The end result was that he couldn't score higher than 50% accuracy determining which was which. So he dumped his expensive tube amp and purchased an equally expensive transistor amp. Later a fellow audiophile visited his home and howled about the transistor amp pointing out this and that was wrong and the audophile agreed! He dumped his brand new transistor amp and bought another tube amp.... Just goes to show the power of suggestion... :p

Some people can't even tell that their LCD monitors are running at non native resolution, they just live with blurry text...

Most people who view movies on projectors are more keen on how big of an image you throw, not how pretty the picture is.

Cheers...
Duy-Khang Hoang

"Jason (not that Jason, some other Jason ) tells me that if you put a great HD-DVD porn flick on, they can't even tell the difference between a pair of roller skates and a Harley."

Check out this cool optical illusion:

This reminds me of a story I heard quite a while ago when a very famous audiophile participated in a double blind test between a tube amp and a transistor amp. The end result was that he couldn't score higher than 50% accuracy determining which was which. So he dumped his expensive tube amp and purchased an equally expensive transistor amp. Later a fellow audiophile visited his home and howled about the transistor amp pointing out this and that was wrong and the audophile agreed! He dumped his brand new transistor amp and bought another tube amp.... Just goes to show the power of suggestion... :p

Yeah, but that's a case of a couple of people hearing things that aren't there, which is the opposite end of the spectrum from the people who can't see anything even when it's right in front of their face.

There is a middle ground. It's called reality.

The worst day of my life is the day I realized that wine out of box no longer tasted good. From that day on, I knew I would be spending a lot more on wine, and while momentarily happy when I find a good one, I am forever cursed to be in search of a better one. I was much happier getting smashed on a $7 gallon of Ernest and Julio Gallo.

Now I find myself in the same rat race with projectors. Everyone who has ever seen my measly Sharp MX-20 1024 x 768 has oohed and aahed all over it. Now I just bought a new house that came with a Mits HC3000, and everyone oohs and aahs over it... Everyone except me. To me, its black levels are crushed, its white levels are clipped, its resolution is too low, I can't see every individual blade of grass while watching a football game in HD, I see occassional rainbows... Need I go on? So now I want a JVC RS-1. And when I get one, I'm never coming back to these forums so I can remain ignorant of the next best thing and be happy again! (likely story).

Ignorance is bliss. Don't spoil it for those lucky enough to be blessed with it.

"Jason (not that Jason, some other Jason ) tells me that if you put a great HD-DVD porn flick on, they can't even tell the difference between a pair of roller skates and a Harley."

Check out this cool optical illusion:

Thanks for that... just had to send that around the office :)

Cheers...
Duy-Khang Hoang

Noah has out done himself. He supplies a link to a picture and without a word, not one word, mind you, gives us not one, but TWO fantastic points. BTW I wouldn't mind seeing what's south of the border.

Optical illusion #2) Stare at this photo long enough and you will eventuall see another boat in the background.
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b293/smithfarmer/PhotoImpression4.jpg

Touche, or should I say tooshie :)

I may take a lot of flak for this, but to some extent I agree with the friends who don't see a difference between standard def and HD.

Of course, there is a difference; a BIG difference. I've watched HD on my friend's Optoma and it looks glorious.

For months I've been researching and working towards upgrading my 1024x576 Infocus, hell bent on going HD as soon as possible.

But you know what? Every time I sit back to watch a DVD on my current setup, I look at the screen and say, "you know what? There ain't nothing wrong with this picture" and the HD fever begins to subside...

It may not be HD, but my Screenplay 5700 is still one of the best standard-def DLPs out there. It's been callibrated, contrast is good, color performance is outstanding and a sublte ND filter helps me get great blacks.

My screen is big, 16x9 and high quality. My environment is light-controlled.

My sound system is very good.

As it stands, my system blows away what 99% of America is watching on and it's about as good as DVD gets.

And let's not kid ourselves - DVD is very good. It's not like VHS, where every time you watch you're actively aware of how blurry and awful the image is.

When I watch now, I have a bright, clear, clean, crisp image.

HD will make it better, but it's not like I NEED to upgrade to be happy with my home theater experience.

Maybe when your friends come over to YOUR home theater and think DVD looks great, they're also reacting to watching the best presentation they've ever seen of a DVD - it impresses the hell out of them - so when you throw on HD, the extra bump in resolution isn't enough to floor them anymore.

And, to be honest, as much as I want HD, I'm not overeager to upgrade anymore, simply because "there just ain't nothing wrong with that picture!"

Sure, it could be better - but damn it still looks good to me.

Most people like to see the screen big and bright. Sharpness, contrast, color fidelity just dont register with joe six pack.

Regards,
Dean

Various aspects of visual perception are learned. J6P does not have the cognitive set or neural traces to perceive what AVSers do.

Same with audio...same with taste. All learned.

But you know what? Every time I sit back to watch a DVD on my current setup, I look at the screen and say, "you know what? There ain't nothing wrong with this picture" and the HD fever begins to subside...

I wish it were so. Unfortunately almost all DVDs are not just a resolution reduced version of the HD but the HD minus the resolution plus EE and ringing, sometimes filtering artifacts and compression artifacts too. Nothing wrong? If you sit far enough away probably not. :)

what do you tell friends/neighbors who dont see the difference when viewing BD /HD movies as compared to a good 1080P upsampled DVD disk?
I have a ruby, rotel 1080P dvd and PS3 for BD. I have displayed both DVD and BD movies and everyone says they look EQUALLY great over the ruby. The difference of the BD is like night and day to me- better clarity, more saturated colors, sharper, better contrast etc.
The issue is - is it me hoping to see differences that aren't really there or do my friends not see the difference before them? Is it all in my head or am I a technology shill?
D
There is a difference between watching and seeing. Everybody can watch if not blind. Not everybody can see. Or to quote Barbra as Yentl: People are blind. ;)

Most people can atleast understand the *difference* between a Lamborghini and a Ford, and everyone would get it the instant that the gas pedal was pressed in the Lamb...
Not if it's a GT. :D
http://photos.imageevent.com/williamjulien/carmeet1806/huge/Car%20Meet%2002.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/williamjulien/carmeet1806/huge/Car%20Meet%2027.jpg

There is no second boat in that picture.

I may take a lot of flak for this, but to some extent I agree with the friends who don't see a difference between standard def and HD.

Of course, there is a difference; a BIG difference. I've watched HD on my friend's Optoma and it looks glorious.

For months I've been researching and working towards upgrading my 1024x576 Infocus, hell bent on going HD as soon as possible.

But you know what? Every time I sit back to watch a DVD on my current setup, I look at the screen and say, "you know what? There ain't nothing wrong with this picture" and the HD fever begins to subside...

It may not be HD, but my Screenplay 5700 is still one of the best standard-def DLPs out there. It's been callibrated, contrast is good, color performance is outstanding and a sublte ND filter helps me get great blacks.

My screen is big, 16x9 and high quality. My environment is light-controlled.

My sound system is very good.

As it stands, my system blows away what 99% of America is watching on and it's about as good as DVD gets.

And let's not kid ourselves - DVD is very good. It's not like VHS, where every time you watch you're actively aware of how blurry and awful the image is.

When I watch now, I have a bright, clear, clean, crisp image.

HD will make it better, but it's not like I NEED to upgrade to be happy with my home theater experience.

Maybe when your friends come over to YOUR home theater and think DVD looks great, they're also reacting to watching the best presentation they've ever seen of a DVD - it impresses the hell out of them - so when you throw on HD, the extra bump in resolution isn't enough to floor them anymore.

And, to be honest, as much as I want HD, I'm not overeager to upgrade anymore, simply because "there just ain't nothing wrong with that picture!"

Sure, it could be better - but damn it still looks good to me.


I have found that most people who fail to recognize the earth shattering difference between HD and DVD are watching in viewing conditions that do not make proper use of the information in this document: http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/hitech/1137/maxing-out-resolution.html

I'm not saying that's you. I'm just saying.

And as was mentioned in a previous post, DVDs problems don't just stop at the resolution. DVDs sucked even before HD DVD and BRD got here, and now their shortcomings are just more obvious.

Most DVDs are full of edge enhancement. Many are even full of macroblocking in dark areas and other problems. And let's not forget the decreased color depth. On small screens, or long distances, they look fine. On a really big screen, they are often hard to watch. Dude, in my theater, I have to watch DVDs from the back row and even then they are often hard to stomach. And I've got good equipment.

Not if it's a GT. :D
http://photos.imageevent.com/williamjulien/carmeet1806/huge/Car%20Meet%2002.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/williamjulien/carmeet1806/huge/Car%20Meet%2027.jpg


I would like to amend my earlier post to read "Ford Pinto." :D

I would like to amend my earlier post to read "Ford Pinto." :D
I don't know it still could be close. As soon as the pit crew finishes changing the fronts.
:D :D

http://photos.imageevent.com/williamjulien/s2000/Pinto%201975.jpg

LOL. You got me. Forget the Lamborghini, I want one of those. :D

...HD will make it better, but it's not like I NEED to upgrade to be happy with my home theater experience...
Mojo,

What are you, one of those pinko communist?!?

This forum is not about NEED, its all about WANT. It is about conspicuous (or inconspicuous as is the case with some HTs) consumption! One upsmanship on the neighbors is the name of the game here! Upgradeitis is a communicable disease spread through this forum. STAY AWAY if you don't want to catch it. Only the most hearty of souls can resist its siren call!
;) ;) ;)

Ignorance is bliss. The people who cannot discern the differences are people who have not trained their eyes to notice. Many of those people couldn't care less as what they are seeing is pleasant enough to their eyes. Let them save money and enjoy their bliss. The only reason you would be concern about what they see is if you were trying to impress them or validate your expense.

I don't know it still could be close. As soon as the pit crew finishes changing the fronts.
:D :D

http://photos.imageevent.com/williamjulien/s2000/Pinto%201975.jpg



Hey, not fair making fun of my wheels.... :D

I have found that most people who fail to recognize the earth shattering difference between HD and DVD are watching in viewing conditions that do not make proper use of the information in this document: http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/hitech/1137/maxing-out-resolution.html

I'm not saying that's you. I'm just saying.

And as was mentioned in a previous post, DVDs problems don't just stop at the resolution. DVDs sucked even before HD DVD and BRD got here, and now their shortcomings are just more obvious.

Most DVDs are full of edge enhancement. Many are even full of macroblocking in dark areas and other problems. And let's not forget the decreased color depth. On small screens, or long distances, they look fine. On a really big screen, they are often hard to watch. Dude, in my theater, I have to watch DVDs from the back row and even then they are often hard to stomach. And I've got good equipment.

I think that there comes a time when technology surpasses human senses.

I know that my Sonas Faber speakers and the rest of my sound system produces more than I can hear. Especially after 40+ years of Hi-Fi listening!
I also know that I need to use my glasses when watching 1080 material on my optoma 81. It looks great ,but I still think I can see even better if the technology was better. So there is still something to look foward to!

Tony

Tony

All this reminds me of how I frequently go into co-workers offices where I need to look at something on their computer screen and they have a CRT-based monitor set to a 60Hz refresh rate. I can't look at it. It gives me a headache within seconds. It's like having a strobe light in my face. The first thing I do is apologize and ask if it's okay for me to change their screen settings to a higher refresh rate. Once, I've changed it, many of them go, "Gee, I don't see a difference. It never bothered me."

Some people just aren't sensitive to some stimuli, some just don't care. I've been an audiophile for years and have quite a stereo system. Some who hear it are amazed and say they never realized how much nuance they were never hearing in the music, some say they're just as happy with a $299 shelf system from the big box store with 20% THD.

I learned many years ago that you just can't expect everyone to have the same interests as you. If someone is impressed by my stereo, theatre, a good wine, etc. they'll express it and ask questions. If not, I can't force them to be interested in my hobbies, just because I want them to be.

I've come to appreciate that expecting others to be impressed and interested in my hobbies is like someone expecting me to be impressed by a phenomenal set of golf clubs or a fine, high-end whiskey. I'd be less interested in the clubs than a thrift shop pair of skis, and less interested in the whiskey than a good bottle of ale.

All this reminds me of how I frequently go into co-workers offices where I need to look at something on their computer screen and they have a CRT-based monitor set to a 60Hz refresh rate. I can't look at it. It gives me a headache within seconds. It's like having a strobe light in my face. The first thing I do is apologize and ask if it's okay for me to change their screen settings to a higher refresh rate. Once, I've changed it, many of them go, "Gee, I don't see a difference. It never bothered me."

Some people just aren't sensitive to some stimuli, some just don't care. I've been an audiophile for years and have quite a stereo system. Some who hear it are amazed and say they never realized how much nuance they were never hearing in the music, some say they're just as happy with a $299 shelf system from the big box store with 20% THD.

I learned many years ago that you just can't expect everyone to have the same interests as you. If someone is impressed by my stereo, theatre, a good wine, etc. they'll express it and ask questions. If not, I can't force them to be interested in my hobbies, just because I want them to be.

I've come to appreciate that expecting others to be impressed and interested in my hobbies is like someone expecting me to be impressed by a phenomenal set of golf clubs or a fine, high-end whiskey. I'd be less interested in the clubs than a thrift shop pair of skis, and less interested in the whiskey than a good bottle of ale.


You make some excellent points.


But here's my issue: some people are just willfully ignorant.

I don't know a THING about wine, but I am smart enough to recognize that I don't know anything about wine and to be open to a bit of an education.

Certainly you have run into people who claim that your high-end wines are no better than a box of wine from the Quickie-Mart. People who claim that your love of high end wines is all about snobbery and brand imaging and not based in reality.

These people are out there. People who are willfully ignorant.

This kind of attitude is disrespectful to the connoisseur. It's one thing to tell a person that you don't particularly care about their passion. It's something else entirely to tell them that they are crazy.

Don't misunderstand -- I'm not saying that the connoisseur should never be challenged, only that to dismiss his arguments out of hand without understanding the basic principles is insulting.

Second boat? I didn't even see the first... :D

You make some excellent points.


But here's my issue: some people are just willfully ignorant.

I don't know a THING about wine, but I am smart enough to recognize that I don't know anything about wine and to be open to a bit of an education.

Certainly you have run into people who claim that your high-end wines are no better than a box of wine from the Quickie-Mart. People who claim that your love of high end wines is all about snobbery and brand imaging and not based in reality.

These people are out there. People who are willfully ignorant.

This kind of attitude is disrespectful to the connoisseur. It's one thing to tell a person that you don't particularly care about their passion. It's something else entirely to tell them that they are crazy.

Don't misunderstand -- I'm not saying that the connoisseur should never be challenged, only that to dismiss his arguments out of hand without understanding the basic principles is insulting.


Oh, I agree with you completely. While I may not care about someone's golf clubs in the least, I would never for an instant say that I don't think it is possible for them to play better with them than some cheap, made in China, crap from the local Walmart.

I was just pointing out that in some cases, some people aren't, for whatever reason, sensitive to the difference. For some it may be physiological, for many, it's lack of interest.

Yes, I agree that some in the lack of interest camp are further "willfully ignorant" and maybe even hostile to those who have an appreciation for something. I guess in my younger days, I'd have gotten up a head of steam and gone gunning for them. I guess I'm just making the point that you can offer them some taste of an education in a few points and see if they bite. If they stick to their guns, it ain't worth the effort, leave'em be. I've learned to choose my battles over the years. While I still catch myself doing it from time to time, I try not to get into situations that just get me worked up for no benefit, unless I'm just in the mood where I find it fun too. That happens occasionally too!

I guess I'm just saying that trying to convince an uninterested or perhaps willfully ignorant non-audio/videophile of the joys of being an audio/videophile is like trying to change strongly held political views of someone. You aren't going to succeed, and unless you just found the argument fun, you got yourself all frustrated for nothing!

Oh, I agree with you completely. While I may not care about someone's golf clubs in the least, I would never for an instant say that I don't think it is possible for them to play better with them than some cheap, made in China, crap from the local Walmart.

I was just pointing out that in some cases, some people aren't, for whatever reason, sensitive to the difference. For some it may be physiological, for many, it's lack of interest.

Yes, I agree that some in the lack of interest camp are further "willfully ignorant" and maybe even hostile to those who have an appreciation for something. I guess in my younger days, I'd have gotten up a head of steam and gone gunning for them. I guess I'm just making the point that you can offer them some taste of an education in a few points and see if they bite. If they stick to their guns, it ain't worth the effort, leave'em be. I've learned to choose my battles over the years. While I still catch myself doing it from time to time, I try not to get into situations that just get me worked up for no benefit, unless I'm just in the mood where I find it fun too. That happens occasionally too!

I guess I'm just saying that trying to convince an uninterested or perhaps willfully ignorant non-audio/videophile of the joys of being an audio/videophile is like trying to change strongly held political views of someone. You aren't going to succeed, and unless you just found the argument fun, you got yourself all frustrated for nothing!


I completely agree with everything you just said, so you and I are most definitely on the same page.

But just because it's generally not worth it to tango with someone who is willfully ignorant doesn't mean that they're not behaving like tools. The "willfully ignorant" camp are an insulting bunch of fools.

I really do not mind if a person really is unable to see the difference between projector A and projector B, or format A and format B. As another poster mentioned, the ability to see the difference is often learned and may involve synaptic connections in the brain.

I also am not offended by someone who finds my hobbies uninteresting, boring, or trivial. To each his own.

What I can't stand are the people who insist that there IS no difference despite knowing absolutely nothing about it. These people are being rude. This sort of behavior is offensive, and not just to HT enthusiasts, but to anyone they direct it at.

There is no second boat in that picture.


Second boat? I didn't even see the first... :D
The no second boat in that picture blow right over my head. What does it mean? :confused:

I was looking at some displays at BB the other day. My sister was with me and after a while she said "I don't know why you want to upgrade; I don't see any difference b/t these new sets and your [7" RP CRT]" I was like really? No difference? I think the new DLPs and LCoS exceed mine in every area except maybe black levels. (They were all playing HD demos, too, while she usually watches DVDs or SDTV on mine.)

I can't tell whether people really see no difference, or it's just their way of saying they think the difference doesn't justify the cost and hassle and I'm just nuts.

...The "willfully ignorant" camp are an insulting bunch of fools....
You're being nice. I just call them obnoxious a@@holes! :p :p

The "willfully ignorant" camp are an insulting bunch of fools.


ABSOLUTELY! You're right, we are completely on the same page!

That's why I realize that they aren't worth me getting worked up over. Let'em go be tools and f'em.

William. The first picture draws most male eyes to the steller set of err and only after a while does one notice the waterfall in the background. In the second pictures ones eyes might not even notice she is posing on a boat yet alone the reportely there boat with gawkers in the background (I don't know, my eyes never got there). God I love being able to constructively add this explanatory post.

Another thing that might cause it... I know a lot of people have bad eyesight without knowing it. Most of my friends have much poorer eyesight than I do when I have my glasses on. the ones I have convinced to get an eye exam say that the world is suddenly in 3D and stuff like that.

I wish it were so. Unfortunately almost all DVDs are not just a resolution reduced version of the HD but the HD minus the resolution plus EE and ringing, sometimes filtering artifacts and compression artifacts too. Nothing wrong? If you sit far enough away probably not. :)

Great post,my thoughts exactly. :)

Art

To the mass public, the jump from VHS to DVD was huge. The jump from standard def broadcasts to HD broadcasts is huge.

However, the jump from DVD to HDDVD/BRD is not huge in the mind of the mass public and will go the way of SACD/DVD-A.

I see a huge difference myself but we are .01% of the general population.

I hope I'm wrong and we start seeing HD-DVD/BRD at blockbuster soon.

William. The first picture draws most male eyes to the steller set of err and only after a while does one notice the waterfall in the background. In the second pictures ones eyes might not even notice she is posing on a boat yet alone the reportely there boat with gawkers in the background (I don't know, my eyes never got there). God I love being able to constructively add this explanatory post.
http://photos.imageevent.com/williamjulien/carmeet1806/huge/Car%20Meet%2002.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/williamjulien/carmeet1806/huge/Car%20Meet%2027.jpg

Help me out and leave off the metaphors. In plan English as if I were a 10 year old exactly what are you talking about? :confused:

Help me out and leave off the metaphors. In plan English as if I were a 10 year old exactly what are you talking about? :confused:


Optical illusion #2) Stare at this photo long enough and you will eventuall see another boat in the background.
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b293/smithfarmer/PhotoImpression4.jpg :)

lol... I wanna more triks!

I don't not know "plan" English. Sorry. :) I am talking about the two photos with the women in them.

Most people are amazingly dull towards image quality and nuances... they're watching the film, not the pixels. That kind of naive wonder is something I'm still trying to get myself back to, because it makes enjoying film all that much better.

I think this is one of the most insightful posts in this thread and describes exactly what's going on. The vast, vast majority of people live in "naive wonder" of display and audio technology. They understand basically two levels of performance, good, and bad.

And lets not kid ourselves DVD is good. It puts out a great picture, there's good detail, none of the analog noise or other issues that plagued VHS and plague analog TV. It's much better than anything else we can see in our homes...

With one exception, HD. DVD is a significant step up over SD TV, and that is what most people compare it to. Further an HT is a huge step up over a "TV", and again, that's what most people compare it to.

I have found that most people who fail to recognize the earth shattering difference between HD and DVD are watching in viewing conditions that do not make proper use of the information in this document: http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/hitech/1137/maxing-out-resolution.html

I'm not saying that's you. I'm just saying.

FWIW, this is coming from someone who sits at ~1.4x (maybe less) screen widths from a 2.39:1 CIH 720p DLP setup...

And as was mentioned in a previous post, DVDs problems don't just stop at the resolution. DVDs sucked even before HD DVD and BRD got here, and now their shortcomings are just more obvious.

Now that's just not right. DVDs come nowhere close to sucking. They're definitely not perfect, and at times, their problems can be annoying, but aside from us crazies who are aware of these issues, nobody notices.

I still find myself surprised from time to time by the image DVD can put out, and in a good way.

Most DVDs are full of edge enhancement. Many are even full of macroblocking in dark areas and other problems. And let's not forget the decreased color depth. On small screens, or long distances, they look fine. On a really big screen, they are often hard to watch.

I disagree completely. I just had a few friends over last night and we watched The Matrix, and it was thoroughly enjoyable. And with one exception (where we see Morpheus standing against a white background talking to Neo) I never once found myself "wanting" for anything in that movie.

Dude, in my theater, I have to watch DVDs from the back row and even then they are often hard to stomach. And I've got good equipment.

I feel sorry for you, I really do. HD DVD is great, and I can clearly see everything people say makes it better than DVD, and agree with them that all those things make it better. But I definitely wouldn't describe it as "earth shattering".

We here have a tendency to greatly overstate things, probably because there's no quantitative way to measure the differences we see. It seems that far, far too often any difference that's observable without close inspection is described as "night and day", that far to much stuff is thrown into the revolutionary category when it doesn't belong there.

Color TV was a revolution, for obvious reasons.

Digital video, specifically DVD was a revolution, it changed the way people interact with video/movies and spawned unprecedented surge in home theater uptake.

HDTV was a revolution, but primarily for the way it changed how TV is delivered and produced, not for the increased resolution (my TV, not my projector, is limited to 480p input and it's 4:3, yet HD is clearly "HD" even at that limited resolution).

HD DVD/Blu-ray, are not revolutionary. They're an evolution, in every sense of the word, from DVD.

Kaleidescape could be considered a revolution, completely changing the way people view movies at home. And once Managed Copy comes to HD DVD/Blu-ray I'll jump in with both feet and will fully enjoy all the evolutionary benefits they bring. Until then I'm going to continue enjoying my DVD collection and the occasional HD DVD treat from Netflix.

I find myself surrounded by "unsophisticated viewers". They are one of the reasons that reading this forum is so enjoyable...I feel a little less crazy (thanks guys! :) ) The truth is it's hard to know whether to pity them or envy them. In some ways it really is true that "ignorance is bliss". I've given up on trying to educate them or impress them, and I've actually been trying to learn from them. Although I'm optimizing my set up for HD DVD/Blu Ray, I'm still trying to appreciate the engaging close ups and action scenes of SD DVDs and not worry so much about the mid/long shots that highlight EE, ringing, low resolution etc. Constantly grumbling about these flaws makes it difficult to really get into a movie (the dark side of home theater ;) ) I'm trying to become more "selectively unsophisticated".

Now if I ever achieve true PQ nirvana (RS1 on pre-order!), It might lead to the other problem of being so in awe of the eye candy that the plot of the movie goes right out the window. :eek: (Much like getting hit by a boat while being mesmerized by some prime t&a!)

The RS1 is not true picture quality nirvana. It like anything else digital is not something that you will be happy with a few number of years from now. It is built to a price point and like anything else it incorporates design compromises needed to reach the price point. Think how much better it could be with a $3K fixed lens for example etc etc or with a more powerful bulb. Don't get me wrong. It appears to be a great projector for the money but like any other projector nirvana it isn't.

It's ridiculous to say DVD is "unwatchable" compared to HD. That sounds like snobbery, or at the very least someone trying to justify a LOT of upgrade money.

Of COURSE a crappy DVD transfer looks bad... I watch old non anamorphic edge-enhanced aliasing titles and cringe and DO almost feel like it's not worth watching... but a good transfer on a good system just looks good.

HD looks better, naturally I see that... but my whole point is that if I felt DVD was truly unwatchable in comparison, I'd be quicker to upgrade.

But a good DVD (and today most of them are good) still is plenty watchable.

I'd really be surprised at people who couldn't see the difference... but I can understand someone not being blown away.

The RS1 is not true picture quality nirvana. It like anything else digital is not something that you will be happy with a few number of years from now. It is built to a price point and like anything else it incorporates design compromises needed to reach the price point. Think how much better it could be with a $3K fixed lens for example etc etc or with a more powerful bulb. Don't get me wrong. It appears to be a great projector for the money but like any other projector nirvana it isn't.
I didn't actually say the RS1 would be nirvana, just a lot closer. I'm also trying to become more "selectively unsophisticated" and not sweat the small stuff. :) Coming from a Panny 900, I think it will be damn close to nirvana for me YMMV ;). Of course, staying off this forum would likely make it seem like nirvana for a lot longer. :rolleyes:

I agree with you 100 per cent.

I think J6P is being sold short.

In 1999 when I told (regular) people that I had gotten an RPTV, they said "Really? But they're not clear."

And they were right. The set I got (Toshiba TP61H95), had been favorably reviewed, but the ones I saw at 3 different stores all looked the same as the other RPTV's, which is to say, not so good, not nearly as crisp as the tube sets of the time.

I didn't actually say the RS1 would be nirvana, just a lot closer. I'm also trying to become more "selectively unsophisticated" and not sweat the small stuff. :) Coming from a Panny 900, I think it will be damn close to nirvana for me YMMV ;). Of course, staying off this forum would likely make it seem like nirvana for a lot longer. :rolleyes:

I could not agree more with this! Once the RS1 comes, I am going into projector forum retirement :) I have learned my lesson from the past with other various purchases. Of course when it comes time to upgrade however long down the road, I will be back. I am actually looking very forward to getting off the forum for a long while as it has consumed me with all the RS1 info since Cedia.

Optical illusion #2) Stare at this photo long enough and you will eventuall see another boat in the background.
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b293/smithfarmer/PhotoImpression4.jpg


This looks like a family photo album kind of thing. Care to comment on your relation to the wonder of evolution captured in front of the second boat?

If your girlfriend you should gloat, if happily married you should be grateful to god that love and beauty were found in the same place, if your daughter you need the same help that Jessica Simpson's fathers does, if it was an anonymous shot hope that none of the first three see the post.

?

2 rules

1. women in general generally wouldn't know the difference (or care if there was any difference) between for example watching a movie on a 9" Durabrand 49 dollar Walmart aisle special versus a state of the art $200,000 Christie 3 chip DLP front projector viewed on a 20 foot diagional screen powered by commercial grade Klipsch speakers

If the movie is a chick-flick, most are fine with the small screen and if asked about the difference between the 2 setups after comparing them might state "The larger screen was ok"

now to be fair probably 5% of women would care and would prefer the Christie setup

2. with males, EXCEPT for football nuts - probably 70% would note the difference but still wouldn't be that big a deal

Hard core HD enthusiasts are not that common

Let's not forget, at about 10 mins into the movie, when you are done patting yourself on the back for having such a fine-looking image up on the screen, you SHOULD be paying attention to the film, not the pixels.

Female or not.

I agree with some of the others who realize at a certain point, you're MISSING the point of a good home theater - a great environment to ENJOY MOVIES. I think a lot of people on the forum think the point of a good home theater is to have the best possible home theater!

There simply is a factor of diminishing returns... most people agree that the jump from 720 to 1080 is minimal at best... people scrambling to sell the 720s they bought 6 months ago to get 1080 I think are really missing the point of the home theater experience. I'd wager every single person rushing to upgrade to 1080 already has an astonishingly good picture, and simply can't stand the idea that a better model is available.

On the other hand the jump from VHS to DVD was night and day - that truly WAS going from a bad picture to a good one.

DVD to HD to going from a good picture to a better one.

I'd be willing to bet that number of people screaming "DVD is now unwatchable" is directly propotional to how much they paid per foot of cable ;-)

I'm only known as the guy with the viberating couch. I thought when my setup was done I would be taking reservations from my friends for movie nights. However, they continue to ask me to there place to watch movies on their 27" tv's.

This has been an interesting thread to read.
Before HD-DVD/Blu-Ray I didn't like to go to real movies because it reminded me of how fuzzy my large collection of DVDs looked. Faces, textures, and landscapes looked always so much better/real on film. Now that I am able to watch 1080p in home, I am not constantly annoyed with the lack of resolution anymore. However, viewing distance is the most important thing here: I am watching at the distance of 1.3*picture width from the screen in my home. For a small TV DVD resolution is more than enough. I have had many visitors who commented about DVDs that they looked better than a film in a movie theater! Of course, I was happy to hear that and I just nodded to these flattering comments, but nevertheless, I don't see DVD as a medium that one can consider seriously for archiving movies as art. So much of the original vision of the director is missing there like seeing the focus of the camera, makeup of the actors, set details, the choice of film, grain etc.

For comparison, I have never felt the need for high resolution audio formats like SACD and DVD-A and I like good AQ very much. To my ears the difference to a normal CD is just too small and even if there were differences, a normal room is transforming the signal so much that the improvements are only minor.
For both PQ and AQ, I feel that there is still much room for improvement compared to the real thing of being in a live concert etc. This could also be one reason why not everyone thinks that investing so much money to high-end rig is an expression of healthy brain activity.

Kari

Let's not forget, at about 10 mins into the movie, when you are done patting yourself on the back for having such a fine-looking image up on the screen, you SHOULD be paying attention to the film, not the pixels.

Many of us who seek the best possible picture quality struggle with this. We got into this because we love movies. And it is our love of movies that causes us to strive for the best possible picture, so that we can experience the image as close to the original 35mm print as possible. But we have become experts in what makes a picture bad, and sometimes it's hard not to fixate on it.

But make no mistake. A person who has trained himself to be acutely aware of a picture's imperfections is a good person to listen to with regard to which format is better, or which projector is better; whether or not you will notice or even care about the difference is something only you can decide for yourself.



I agree with some of the others who realize at a certain point, you're MISSING the point of a good home theater - a great environment to ENJOY MOVIES. I think a lot of people on the forum think the point of a good home theater is to have the best possible home theater!


Oh, I think 99% of us get the point. But having a "better" home theater allows for a more enjoyable film experience. At least, that's the goal. That's the idea, whether or not personality issues get in the way of our enjoyment.

Also, just because video nirvana is a difficult thing to achieve does not mean that its pursuit is not beneficial to the film-watching experience, both for the video enthusiast and for those who watch movies in his/her home.


There simply is a factor of diminishing returns... most people agree that the jump from 720 to 1080 is minimal at best...

Did you look at that "seating distance" document I posted earlier? At the right viewing angle, there is a big difference. In fact, 1080p is TWICE as sharp. Of course, in order for it to be twice as sharp, the source content actually has to be twice as sharp. There are lots of places for a display chain to go wrong.


On the other hand the jump from VHS to DVD was night and day - that truly WAS going from a bad picture to a good one.
DVD to HD to going from a good picture to a better one.



I find the difference to be as dramatic as the step up from VHS to DVD. The major reason that this is so is because I have increased my screen size dramatically. The comparison between VHS and DVD was made on a small TV. The comparison between DVD and HD DVD was made on a 96 inch 1080p screen.


I'd be willing to bet that number of people screaming "DVD is now unwatchable" is directly propotional to how much they paid per foot of cable ;-)
I buy my cables on the cheap from monoprice, just for the record. While you may not agree with my opinions, you will never hear me pushing psuedo-science, techno-babble, or anything else that cannot be backed up by sound logic.

And also, just for the record, I thought that DVDs were pretty poor before I ever saw an HD DVD, not because of inherent format limitations (other than resolution) but because of poor encodes and edge enhancement, which look fine on small screens but terrible on big ones.

Now that's just not right. DVDs come nowhere close to sucking.

To me, they do. I trust you will recognize that I am entitled to my opinion, whether or not you agree with it. "Sucking" is a subjective evaluation. On the other hand, edge enhancement, lower color depth, and less resolution are objective criticisms which indeed are based in reality, regardless of how you personally feel about DVD.


They're definitely not perfect, and at times, their problems can be annoying, but aside from us crazies who are aware of these issues, nobody notices.

Aside from us crazies, no one cares about OAR or a properly ISF'd set or most of the other crap we talk about around here. Just because Joe Six Pack doesn't notice something doesn't mean it doesn't exist or isn't important.


I feel sorry for you, I really do.

Really? Wow, that is easily one of the most arrogant, looking-down-the-nose comments I've heard in a long while. You feel sorry for me? How could you possibly feel sorry for me? You know absolutely nothing about me other than the stray words regarding A/V equipment that I leave scattered around this forum. I trust you are smart enough to realize that a man is more than what he posts here, and whether or not a man deserves to be pitied is based on a variety of things that you can never understand without knowing him, or at least without knowing something substantial about him.

I have a nice job, a nice home, a wonderful wife whom I love, I am surrounded by people who care about me, and I want for nothing. And I can afford to indulge my A/V obsessions. Do yourself a favor -- spend your pity on someone who needs it. Donate some money to a worthwhile charity or something. Pity, when expressed as words in the manner which you have communicated them, are hollow and pointless, and in this case misdirected. And when those words are a thinly disguised insult, as they clearly were in this case, they are just plain lame beyond belief.

HD viewing distances for example as close as 6 ft looking onto an 8 ft screen are now very practical, for example particularly on Panasonic Hi Def LCD front projectors that have all but eliminated the screen door effect - even at these ultra-close distances

Just watched Patriots vs Chargers on CBS HD, the original plus a replay (since we won the game) - no eyestrain or any problems at all at approx 6 ft distance via a Pan AE700u onto a 8 ft screen in theater-dark - and this includes a 2nd watching (about 2 more hours) using the DVR copy. No eyestrain at all, nor at any other time with the 100's of other sports events and movies we've seen in the last several years

Watching HD at a distance of 1.3 x screen width distance is in effect outdistancing the available detail - which in an HD sporting event makes no sense

WoW! This is one of the most entertaining threads I've seen in a long time - FP owners must win the sense of humor award on the forum.

I cannot offer feedback as it relates to FP but I do not understand how one could not see the dramatic difference going from DVD to HD DVD or perhaps that person is watching content that won't demo it as well. I viewed HD Phantom of the Opera on Comcast HD on a 45" Sharp LCD and then upgraded toa 57" with HD DVD (with firmware upgrade) version and I then EXPERIENCED POTO in sight and sound and the difference in both were dramatic as hell for both the wife and I - the sound separation without drowning out dialogue was Primo and i experienced the same imopact with Mission Im III - I'm not a fan of Tom but the movie was beautiful in HD DVD.

Content quality of the original can make a difference and style of film sort of like Cinderella Man where Sepia and green tones to present a time period look will not blow you away like the color and sound quality that makes you experience what's up on the screen.

It's not just HD DVD but hell with Sports/Concerts (without high compression) you go from viewing to experiencing the event even something as simple as local news or the Today Show or DiscoveryHD give that WOW that a DVD or 480i/P cannot touch. Well thanks for the humor without the better than fights that are prevalent on other threads. :D

Most of the CES reports were biased and simply reported the propaganda spin the pundits wanted to program us with. However Toms Hardware has an excellent report which focuses on the HD disc battle (and its comparison to quality SD mastered discs):

"Before CES, I had a chance to use a DVD player with a surprisingly good scalar. The Oppo DV-981HD provided an impressive picture on a HD display and I ran it against both Blu-ray (PS3) and HD-DVD (Xbox) content. While the true HD content obviously was a little better (except for some of the poorly done Blu-ray movies, which were actually worse), if you didn't have the displays side by side you likely wouldn't notice the difference. In effect, the Oppo is an expensive DVD player at $230, but an inexpensive alternative to the HD players which will cost you at least twice as much."

http://www.tgdaily.com/2007/01/17/hd_dvd_blu_ray_scalars_analysis/page2.html

"Before CES, I had a chance to use a DVD player with a surprisingly good scalar. The Oppo DV-981HD provided an impressive picture on a HD display and I ran it against both Blu-ray (PS3) and HD-DVD (Xbox) content. While the true HD content obviously was a little better (except for some of the poorly done Blu-ray movies, which were actually worse), if you didn't have the displays side by side you likely wouldn't notice the difference. In effect, the Oppo is an expensive DVD player at $230, but an inexpensive alternative to the HD players which will cost you at least twice as much."
http://www.tgdaily.com/2007/01/17/hd_dvd_blu_ray_scalars_analysis/page2.html
Rubbish.

Now that we're back on the first page of this forum again (dang it), now is a good time for me to issue a plea that we just let this thread die a peaceful death.

Otherwise, I'm going to have to start recommending that people go see their eye doctors, and then the thread is going to degenerate into insinuations regarding who is trolling and certainly, at some point, someone is going to throw a "your momma" comment into the mix.

Since this thread really doesn't have anything to do with Front Projectors, I think the moderators should just can it now.


My two cents.

I agree gremmy.
this thread has gone much farther afield than what I originally asked about. It did indeed begin with a FP issue because my friends were unpersuaded of BD content on my newly installed RUBY. I am glad to see that we all have such friends and acquantances. I am content that I can see and appreciate the differences and am glad to be in the company of other opiniated shills. I think we are all lucky I didnt post this in the 20K+ thread. goodness knows where that may have ended.