I've been in the market for a new receiver, in the last year or so I've gotten equipment that have HDMI & my old Sony V444ES doesn't have HDMI.

When doing my research I discovered that a new HDMI standard was being worked on so I decided it wait until 1.3 was available before making a purchase.

Now with CES come & gone the first HDMI 1.3 receivers have been announced & many so called tech "experts" are telling people that they are wasting time by waiting for HDMI 1.3 before they buy because the features won't be actually used by any equipment for 5 years.

I've heard that Sony will have a HDMI 1.3 capable set at the end of the year (not 5 years from now) but since I just bought a 70" XBR2 I will not be upgrading my TV for quite a while, I have a Playstation 3 (that is HDMI 1.3) for games & Blu-ray movies & the "experts" say that since the lossless codecs are done in the player that any HDMI receiver can play the lossless signals & I don't need to wait for 1.3.

So is there a reason to wait till early summer for the first 1.3 receivers or is there not really any advantages to it yet?

So is there a reason to wait till early summer for the first 1.3 receivers or is there not really any advantages to it yet?

Ask yourself the question of why have the updated version of HDMI if it does nothing and doesn't require any new hardware. Do you remember "HD Ready" and "HD Capable". It does require new hardware. I think it also requires new cables for the higher bandwith.

If they answer truthfully that "yes" you should wait to purchase a/v receivers and players then no one will be there to buy the existing inventory. When I purchase hardware it tends to be used for 10 - 15 years if it's any good to begin with.

I hear that there's a product available (something like SIMPLAY) that will certify hardware for meeting HDMI 1.3 full specifications. Then they'll come up with a label for the front of the equipment for consumers to look for.

Meanwhile, keep asking the hard questions. Don't get suckered like "HD Ready" and "HD Capable" without having your own requirement standards for saying what does "High Definition" mean to you. You'll need to keep doing your own research and make sure your talking to someone who has nothing to gain by giving you the answers (truth) your really looking for.

The HDMI standard is spec'ed to support future development. So, the HDMI 1.3 spec does not actually do anything. The HDMI chips are what actually do things. For example, 1.1 spec supported 1080p but most of the chips did not bother too. Why, because the products were not interested in advancing in that direction at that time.

This is easy for me. I wait for something that is real to be refined IF it is of value to me.

When I hear 1.3 lossless audio, that means BD/HD-DVD. When that stuff is ready, I'll consider it. (I got an SA-XR55 for a few hundred so that I could wait in comfort.)

When I hear 1.3 Deep Color, that means SED, or LED backlight,... When I hear its coming withing months, it's probably going to be expensive, un-refined,... When its ready and affordable(worth the improvement), I'll consider it. (I want PC and trueHD and improved motion, so I've been waiting on 1080p with 1:1 and 120Hz LCD with motion adaptation. I'll let others test them for me, so a little more waiting. )

If you live on the bleeding edge, that's even easier. Just read reviews and buy it. Or, just buy it.

To comment further or wtr_wkr statements.
No it is not worth waiting for, unless you have a DTS HD Master Audio Decoder (extremely unlikely).
That is the only software that will need HDMI 1.3 in the near (and not so near future).
All other forms of HD audio (Dolby HD & DTS HD High Resolution Audio) will work just fine with the 1.1 & 1.2 HDMI chipsets (but only if the product mfgr. has enabled these functions).
I have even less faith in needing 1.3 any time soon on a display device (this will also require new encoding for the media).

The latest HDMI 1.3 specification does add some significant new capabilities, some of which will typically require new hardware to experience. Keep in mind that these new added capabilities are all options, so consumers should be diligent in shopping for specific features in their products, and not by the spec rev number. A list of the major new features added to HDMI 1.3 are listed here:
http://www.hdmi.org/resourcecenter/index.asp

Among the new features that are getting a lot of attention are:

Deep color: allows devices to transmit & receive pixel data with up to 16-bit per component 4:4:4 RGB color depth. Today's devices support 8-bit color depth (16.7M possible colors), so this adds a significant amount of precision to reduce/eliminate banding artifacts (think of video where the camera looks at a bright light source, and you can see the rings around it- that is an example of banding). Several products have been announced that will support deep color up to 12-bit per component (64B possible colors).

Auto Lip Sync Correction: When audio is rendered by another device besides the TV, the TV can communicate its exact video latency to the audio rendering device, allowing the audio device to automatically delay the audio to be in more precise synchronization with the TV's video. Note this does not correct content that comes from the broadcaster with misaligned audio/video tracks (garbage in-garbage out).

xvYCC Color Gamut: HDMI now support the ability for pixels to be defined with a new color gamut standard that enables any color the human eye can see to be defined. Compared to the existing color standard, xvYCC expands the color gamut by 1.8 times, covering 100% of the Munsell color standard. Potentially, this allows cameras to more accurately capture colors to be a more exact representation of the actual source, and TVs have the potential to display these colors to a more exact representation of the actual source. Ultimately, this can enable true "what you see if what you get" colors on your display.

Dolby TrueHD/DTS HD Master Audio: HDMI 1.3 support the transmission of these new lossless audio formats as encoded audio data on the HDMI interface. Note that it is possible to enjoy the new lossless surround sound formats (Dolby TrueHD and DTS HD Master Audio) with existing or older HDMI equipment. This can be done by using a disc player (HD-DVD or BluRay) that performs of decoding of the TrueHD/DTS HD tracks, and converts them into multiple PCM streams which are then sent on HDMI. If such a player is used with an HDMI AV receivers that supports the ability to accept high bit rate PCM streams on HDMI (quite a few of today's AVRs can do this already), you will experience these lossless audio formats. The HDMI spec, ever since rev1.0, has had the ability to transmit up to 8 channels of 192kHz/24bit PCM audio, so this makes it possible to enjoy these latest formats without upgrading your equipment. HDMI 1.3 equipment is needed if you want the disc player to transmit the audio in the encoded format, to be decoded and processed by an external devices such as an AV receiver.

The latest HDMI 1.3 specification does add some significant new capabilities, some of which will typically require new hardware to experience. Keep in mind that these new added capabilities are all options, so consumers should be diligent in shopping for specific features in their products, and not by the spec rev number.

Ugh. I really don't understand this approach. If everything is an option then how is it a "standard"? It sounds just like more confusion for the consumer (like several HDMI 1.1 receivers that don't support 1080p, for example). The detailed information of HDMI implementation seems to be relatively hidden by many manufacturers. It also sounds like we could have HDMI 1.3 implementations that really are basically 1.1 if they don't support any of the new "options".

You are correct- it is currently possible for a manufacturer to claim that their product is HDMI 1.3 when it only supports very basic features such as 480p and 2ch stereo. We're certainly looking at some other approaches to help the consumers avoid this (understandable) confusion when manufacturers aren't very clear about the product's capabilities. The claim of 1080p support in TVs is another example of a feature that can be confusing, such as if the TV will only accept 720p/1080i on the connection inputs, then apply its own line doubling to make the video scale up to the TV's native 1080p resolution. We've seen a few TV makers create a 1080p brand/logo as a result, but at the end of the day, it comes down to "buyer beware."

Again, this feedback is well taken and acknowledged, and we hope to find solutions to help address this confusion in the near future.

HDMI is a spec for EEs to design chips that other engineers agree they need. This includes speculation of future needs.

If you want to look at specs for chips, look at the chip spec, not the spec for the interface. For example, SI's HDMI receiver chip: SiI9135 (1080p @ 60Hz or 720p/1080i @ 120Hz, 225MHz.)

I would not waste my time looking at these specs. The TV's VP specs are much more interesting. For example, HD motion adaptation: http://www.micronas.com/products/by_function/frc_94xyh/product_information/index.html
and, for SD to HD lite:
http://www.siliconoptix.com/chipProducts/Realta/Realtafeatures.cfm?CFID=&CFTOKEN=1f0dfa5d1bc2c828-3B6CF99B-7E90-E2A3-B7D0DE3A6A91B8B0

These specs are good for detailed info about features. But, the bottom line is - it's only good if it looks better. Obviously, a TV that includes a new HDMI chip like the SiI9135 will NOT look better unless the TV is better AND the content supports it.

Take a vacation in Missouri, the "Show-Me" state.

What I like most about 1.3 is the promise of 10 bit per component color.

I'm going to wire my living room next month -- I'm thinking of getting 35" 22 AWG HDMI cable that's not certified 1.3. I'm hoping this will actually run 30 bit at 1080p/60 whenever I can get a display to match.

I haven't found a lot of 1.3 certified cables, and none longer than about 10 feet -- what's the theory on this particular set-up?

What I like most about 1.3 is the promise of 10 bit per component color.

I'm going to wire my living room next month -- I'm thinking of getting 35" 22 AWG HDMI cable that's not certified 1.3. I'm hoping this will actually run 30 bit at 1080p/60 whenever I can get a display to match.

I haven't found a lot of 1.3 certified cables, and none longer than about 10 feet -- what's the theory on this particular set-up?

If you are only using 35inch HDMI, then you should get the PS3 HDMI (it is HDMI 1.3 compliant) and sold almost anywhere.

Yeah, that was a typo. 35 FEET. As in, just over 10 meters.

The question is are the existing cameras capable of producing those features you described? Are there any content out there that can show off 1.3 ?

At CES, Sony announced and demonstrated a consumer HD camcorder and a professional video camera that capture and record in xvYCC. Hopefully the list of cameras will continue to expand over time.

At CES, Sony announced and demonstrated a consumer HD camcorder and a professional video camera that capture and record in xvYCC. Hopefully the list of cameras will continue to expand over time.
So that means there isn't much content to take advantage of 1.3 ? Can you verify if the Sony HDC-950 is capable of that?

Are there any tvs coming out within the next week or two that have hdmi 1.3?

Ugh. I really don't understand this approach. If everything is an option then how is it a "standard"? It sounds just like more confusion for the consumer (like several HDMI 1.1 receivers that don't support 1080p, for example). The detailed information of HDMI implementation seems to be relatively hidden by many manufacturers. It also sounds like we could have HDMI 1.3 implementations that really are basically 1.1 if they don't support any of the new "options".

I totally agree with you. I think there needs to be some tighter standards with HDMI and the whole HDTV industry for that matter. Companies have too much leeway to build and implement products as they see fit, with little regard as to whether they will work properly with other products or services. And is there any reason to release a new version every year or two that while somewhat backwards-compatable, obsoletes the previous version. Think of your PC as an example...how much fun would it be if every part wasn't interchangable or compatable, and each hardware company used their own guidelines when designing a part?

To me its worth the wait..But who wants to wait?

The latest HDMI 1.3 specification does add some significant new capabilities, some of which will typically require new hardware to experience. Keep in mind that these new added capabilities are all options, so consumers should be diligent in shopping for specific features in their products, and not by the spec rev number. A list of the major new features added to HDMI 1.3 are listed here:
http://www.hdmi.org/resourcecenter/index.asp

Among the new features that are getting a lot of attention are:

Deep color: allows devices to transmit & receive pixel data with up to 16-bit per component 4:4:4 RGB color depth. Today's devices support 8-bit color depth (16.7M possible colors), so this adds a significant amount of precision to reduce/eliminate banding artifacts (think of video where the camera looks at a bright light source, and you can see the rings around it- that is an example of banding). Several products have been announced that will support deep color up to 12-bit per component (64B possible colors).

Auto Lip Sync Correction: When audio is rendered by another device besides the TV, the TV can communicate its exact video latency to the audio rendering device, allowing the audio device to automatically delay the audio to be in more precise synchronization with the TV's video. Note this does not correct content that comes from the broadcaster with misaligned audio/video tracks (garbage in-garbage out).

xvYCC Color Gamut: HDMI now support the ability for pixels to be defined with a new color gamut standard that enables any color the human eye can see to be defined. Compared to the existing color standard, xvYCC expands the color gamut by 1.8 times, covering 100% of the Munsell color standard. Potentially, this allows cameras to more accurately capture colors to be a more exact representation of the actual source, and TVs have the potential to display these colors to a more exact representation of the actual source. Ultimately, this can enable true "what you see if what you get" colors on your display.

Dolby TrueHD/DTS HD Master Audio: HDMI 1.3 support the transmission of these new lossless audio formats as encoded audio data on the HDMI interface. Note that it is possible to enjoy the new lossless surround sound formats (Dolby TrueHD and DTS HD Master Audio) with existing or older HDMI equipment. This can be done by using a disc player (HD-DVD or BluRay) that performs of decoding of the TrueHD/DTS HD tracks, and converts them into multiple PCM streams which are then sent on HDMI. If such a player is used with an HDMI AV receivers that supports the ability to accept high bit rate PCM streams on HDMI (quite a few of today's AVRs can do this already), you will experience these lossless audio formats. The HDMI spec, ever since rev1.0, has had the ability to transmit up to 8 channels of 192kHz/24bit PCM audio, so this makes it possible to enjoy these latest formats without upgrading your equipment. HDMI 1.3 equipment is needed if you want the disc player to transmit the audio in the encoded format, to be decoded and processed by an external devices such as an AV receiver.

If I have a HDMI 1.3 DVD source and A/V Receiver capable of 1.3 processing, for instance, will the new Dolby TrueHD/DTS HD Master Audio programming be passed over optical out/digital coax out audio ports (if I am using component vs. HDMI cables for video) or must I use the HDMI input and output ports?

The new hi-rez movie audio undecoded bitstreams will only be passed via HDMI 1.3. Decoded in player can be output as multichannel analog or multichannel PCM via any HDMI. S/PDIF digital output will still only be "old" DD and DTS bitstreams or "down converted to normal DTS" bitstreams of the new hi-rez movie audio content. In other words the content sent via S/PDIF is not changing from what is has been.

larry

Are all existing HDMI inputs (example Samsung 5053 Plasma) compatible with HDCP? I'm trying to link my HD Cable set-top box to my Samsung Plasma via a DVI to HDMI converter cable and get a message that the set is not HDCP compatible. The Plasma set new…. Am I missing something?

RT

In general, all the HDMI displays I have seen (that is, a TV or projector with an HDMI connector) all support HDCP. However, a few things to note:
- HDMI does not require HDCP to be implemented, but the market pretty much requires it for a display device. Again, I have not personally seen a display with an HDMI connector that does not have HDCP support.
- Devices with the DVI connector are much more likely not to suport HDCP. I know of quite a few projectors and LCD/PDP displays using a DVI connector that do not support HDCP. Such products were designed to be used in corporate or industrial applications, and not for personal home theater use.

Why are you using a DVI/HDMI converter- is your STB using DVI? Please provide details of the STB brand name, model number, and (if possible) firmware.

Issue is when running my STB (Scientific Atlanta Explorer 3250HD on Time Warner Cable) into my Denon AVR-2807 HDMI connection via DVI (from the 3250) to HDMI (on the Denon)converting cable I get an error mesage that the "TV" does not HDCP. The Denon has an HDMI Monitor output to the Samsung Plasma TV... so the Denon AVR is actually managing the HDMI "uplink". As this is a somewhat newly released Denon receiver and Scientific Atlanta STB, I can only assume the Denon is the problem devise. But I am not sure. I seem forced to move connectivity to the RCA RGB Component connections and thus defeating advantages of HDMI connectivity. OR... am I doing something wrong here?

Thanks
RT6885

Isn't "Deep Color" what we've had on computers for ages?

If you are using and displaying >8bit (more than 24bits per pixel) RGB, then "yes". However, what does? (I'm asking because I don't know.) And the output would be analog too.

larry

Isn't "Deep Color" what we've had on computers for ages?

Define "ages." PCs don't in general do more than 8 bits per component. Most graphics cards, while rendering into HDR formats, must downsample to 8 bits per component to scan out. There are however a few cards that do support 10 bits per pixel for framebuffers, such as the later Radeons (and the Xbox 360 and PS/3).

So, no, we haven't had that on computers for "ages."

Note that when computers say "32 bit color" the last 8 bits are for alpha, not for color, so there's only 24 bits used for color resolution. What we're talking about here are 30, 36 or 48 bits of color resolution, actually being scanned out through the digital video output.

PCs graphics chips have been capable of processing and outputting more than 24-bit color for some time over the VGA connector because CRT monitors are technically "infinite" color since it's a matter of adjusting the strength of the electron beam that lights up the phosphor. The digital interface outputs have always been limited to 24-bit color mainly because the LCD technology has not extended beyond this color depth... until now.

So the good news is that PCs should be able to take advantage of deep color over HDMI relatively quickly since the hardware architecture for deep color processing and piping already existings in most graphics cards.