I'm surprised it happened so quickly. Considering that there wasn't a single 50gb until Oct 11 (Click), I didn't think we'd see this many 50gb titles until March.

Now, previously announced 25gb titles like AvP, Manchurian Candidate, We Were Soldiers, Last Samurai have all been released as 50gb. 70-80% of the upcoming titles seem to be 50gb discs.

I like this trend.

Yet, Blu-ray never comes through on its promises, right?

When I saw what could be done with 25GB discs the value of 50GB diminished.

For extremely long movies like the EE editions of LotR and some others the value stands
out in relief but for your basic 2hr feature length film I don't see the value quite so clearly.

I like extras but honestly there's but a few discs in my collection of DVD that have extras I wish to look at again.

I thought Amir said 50GB BD disks are a myth?

I thought Amir said 50GB BD disks are a myth?

He said something like that. Sony proved him wrong though.

Amir's statement was that BG50 was a "violation of the laws of physics".

I'm impressed by how Sony was able to overcome their obstacles and get the BD50 pressed in quantity. I'm not sure the end results matched their efforts but movies are improving on a monthly basis. In a few years we'll look back at KoH and say "I can't believe I thought this was Reference"

That's a good thing.

In a few years we'll look back at KoH and say "I can't believe I thought this was Reference"

That's a good thing.
I already feel that way about a lot of early titles.

When I saw what could be done with 25GB discs the value of 50GB diminished.

For extremely long movies like the EE editions of LotR and some others the value stands
out in relief but for your basic 2hr feature length film I don't see the value quite so clearly.


For us non-US users, the value of 50 GB discs is the ability of storing several language tracks. I hope publishers will use the extra storage to include 2 ou 3 DTS HD tracks besides their DD counterparts.

Amir's statement was that BG50 was a "violation of the laws of physics".

The 4 layer ones must be a crime against humanity then.

I thought Amir said 50GB BD disks are a myth?
No he did not. He said that they would be released but not in readily large amounts at first...and he was right.

And the 51G HD DVD discs do you guys think that they are a myth too? He said they would release movies on them in quater 4

I thought Amir said 50GB BD disks are a myth?IIRC, he used the term "Science Fiction".

No he did not. He said that they would be released but not in readily large amounts at first...and he was right.

And the 51G HD DVD discs do you guys think that they are a myth too? He said they would release movies on them in quater 4

He said 51GB disks in 08. TL51GB disks only exist on paper right now.

Correct, here's his quote:

The format is actually 51 gigabytes (17 gigabytes/layer). And it is just at technology proposal at this point. They would need to submit it to DVD Forum for approval. Once we are through that cycle, then one can determine whether it plays or does not (DVD Forum may modify their proposal before ratification).

It hasn't even been submitted for proposal yet. They don't even know if it will work in current players. Why even bother announcing it, unless they're worried about something? Blu-Ray already has 100 & 200GB discs ready to go if you have to change hardware.

No he did not. He said that they would be released but not in readily large amounts at first...and he was right.

And the 51G HD DVD discs do you guys think that they are a myth too? He said they would release movies on them in quater 4

I think all these 51GB would be nice, but it would be nicer if the HD DVD-RW blanks are available retail. The 50GB DL BD-R is too d*mn expensive and I need the price to come down. If someone out there has the HD DVD burners, please just release it to retail. The $40 that people are charging for BD-R 50 blanks is highway robbery, even the $13 being charged for BD-R is still too high.

Until HD DVD release their burners and blanks, we'll continue to be robbed blind, so please just release those burners and blanks already.

Besides, the .EVO and HDi structure transcription into BD's .MTS is just too painful to deal with, a HD DVD-R 30 would be pretty useful to lots of people now.

To pay a 25% premium on BD50 is a joke. It's almost as bad as paying a premium for the combo disk.
I hate premiums!

The price is most likely kept high incase if someone wants to start pirating movies. No one will pirate a movie on a disk that cost $40+ when they can buy the disk outright for $26.

what are all of the titles on BD50? Or list a few. Is BHD or Underworld Evolution?

Amir's statement was that BG50 was a "violation of the laws of physics".

LOL. I guess I have several of those "violations" in my video collection ...

FUD? ROFL ... when HD-DVD dies, this may be one of those quotes that goes down in history.

No he did not. He said that they would be released but not in readily large amounts at first...and he was right.

You're obviously a NooB then ... the "impossible physics" or variants thereof, has already becoming an internet legend. That FUD was rampant about 6 months ago.

what are all of the titles on BD50? Or list a few. Is BHD or Underworld Evolution?

Black Hawk Down is a BD50.

Here is the list that I dug up for now of released and verified BD50's:

Click
Unforgiven
The Searchers
Black Hawk Down
Kingdom Of Heaven
The Last Samurai
Enemy of The State
Superman The Movie
Superman Returns
Talladega Nights: The Legend Of Ricky Bobby
World Trade Center (2)
Flightplan
Invincible
Pearl Harbor
Sopranos: Season 6 - Part 1 (4)
The Descent
Crank
Alien Vs. Predator
We Were Soldiers
The Manchurian Candidate
The Gridiron Gang

You're obviously a NooB then ... the "impossible physics" or variants thereof, has already becoming an internet legend. That FUD was rampant about 6 months ago.

Don't forget the infamous "Only possible in the lab" comments.

To pay a 25% premium on BD50 is a joke

They're priced identically as far as I can see

To pay a 25% premium on BD50 is a joke. It's almost as bad as paying a premium for the combo disk.
I hate premiums!

funny, ive gotten most of my bd50 titles for about $18.00 from amazon.

I'm surprised it happened so quickly. Considering that there wasn't a single 50gb until Oct 11 (Click), I didn't think we'd see this many 50gb titles until March.

Now, previously announced 25gb titles like AvP, Manchurian Candidate, We Were Soldiers, Last Samurai have all been released as 50gb. 70-80% of the upcoming titles seem to be 50gb discs.Is it really that high? I was under the impression that it would be more than 50% for Disney, but I didn't get the impression that the others were at 50% for announced titles yet. Are you referring to comments about later this year, or about the titles that are on the release list that goes until about June of this year? I didn't realize that AVP was a BD50.

--Darin

Yep, AVP is a BD50 according to the HDD review, but as eight mentioned it was announced as a BD25.

To pay a 25% premium on BD50 is a joke. It's almost as bad as paying a premium for the combo disk.
I hate premiums!

Are you confusing things with new release/catalog pricing?

The predominant use of BD50 has been for new releases.

Gary

Yep, the catalog BD50's can be had for the same $20 price as the BD25 ones as well.

Forgive me but I think BD50 deserves a more careful reading...

The BD50 disc exists alright... but as far as I know, the only one actually producing them is Sony who owns most of the replicators. This means that Sony alone is chewing up those high costs in order to make those discs a competitive reality.

Sony is pushing hard to make BD50 alluring... so future replication plants will decide to carry them instead of just BD25 - who we all know is sufficient for a great number o films.

The small number of replicators available (busy with all those big-studios titles) is losing money. But that's their strategy.

I am very curious to see how will this develop.

It isn't just Sony making them...

When I saw what could be done with 25GB discs the value of 50GB diminished.

hmurchison: lol didn't you always say 50GB is mnot needed :)

Sony is pushing hard to make BD50 alluring... so future replication plants will decide to carry them instead of just BD25 - who we all know is sufficient for a great number o films.


How nice of them to offer a 0.25 cent piece of plastic for the same price as one that costs 0.2 cents. The real cost is in the machinery and paying back R&D/licensing. The actual materials couldn't be much more than DVD.

Forgive me but I think BD50 deserves a more careful reading...

The BD50 disc exists alright... but as far as I know, the only one actually producing them is Sony who owns most of the replicators. This means that Sony alone is chewing up those high costs in order to make those discs a competitive reality.

Sony is pushing hard to make BD50 alluring... so future replication plants will decide to carry them instead of just BD25 - who we all know is sufficient for a great number o films.

The small number of replicators available (busy with all those big-studios titles) is losing money. But that's their strategy.

I am very curious to see how will this develop.

why do you even care if the price to you is same or very close to a BD25? If replicators thinks it makes sense to eat some of the costs associated with BD50, who are we to criticize their business model?

Black Hawk Down is a BD50.

Here is the list that I dug up for now of released and verified BD50's:

Click
Unforgiven
The Searchers
Black Hawk Down
Kingdom Of Heaven
The Last Samurai
Enemy of The State
Superman The Movie
Superman Returns
Talladega Nights: The Legend Of Ricky Bobby
World Trade Center (2)
Flightplan
Invincible
Pearl Harbor
Sopranos: Season 6 - Part 1 (4)
The Descent
Crank
Alien Vs. Predator
We Were Soldiers
The Manchurian Candidate
The Gridiron Gang

Similiar to DVD you can verify if a BD is DL or not by looking at the inner ring.

For example, Click shows two layers:

BVDL 001850 L0
BVDL 001850 L1

Discs with only one layer will only have L0 while DL discs will have L0 and L1.

I've also noticed that SL discs start with BVSS and DL have BVDL

It isn't just Sony making them...

Wrong.

Sony/MEI owns all of the BD50 replicator houses at the moment (or has predominant control) and subsidizes/controls BD50 movies. Sony subsidizes other companies for BD50 replication to encourage their initial production. There is plenty of information out there about this.

This will change but it will take time.

Sony preventing porn on BD just shows how much of a control they have on everything BD related.

In Warner's case though these 50GB discs are being waisted since they cater to the lowest common denominator, 30GB HDDVDs.

Similiar to DVD you can verify if a BD is DL or not by looking at the inner ring.

For example, Click shows two layers:

BVDL 001850 L0
BVDL 001850 L1

Discs with only one layer will only have L0 while DL discs will have L0 and L1.

I've also noticed that SL discs start with BVSS and DL have BVDL

Thanks for the tip. Did not know that.

Wrong.

Sony/MEI owns all of the BD50 replicator houses at the moment (or has predominant control) and subsidizes/controls BD50 movies. Sony subsidizes other companies for BD50 replication to encourage their initial production. There is plenty of information out there about this.

This will change but it will take time.

Sony preventing porn on BD just shows how much of a control they have on everything BD related.


Vivid is releasing porn on Blu-Ray so someone is making those discs.

Black Hawk Down is a BD50.

Here is the list that I dug up for now of released and verified BD50's:

Click
Unforgiven
The Searchers
Black Hawk Down
Kingdom Of Heaven
The Last Samurai
Enemy of The State
Superman The Movie
Superman Returns
Talladega Nights: The Legend Of Ricky Bobby
World Trade Center (2)
Flightplan
Invincible
Pearl Harbor
Sopranos: Season 6 - Part 1 (4)
The Descent
Crank
Alien Vs. Predator
We Were Soldiers
The Manchurian Candidate
The Gridiron Gang

thanks for the list, picked up BHD and Underworld Evolution today (BB deal) :)

why do you even care if the price to you is same or very close to a BD25? If replicators thinks it makes sense to eat some of the costs associated with BD50, who are we to criticize their business model?

I'll tell you why.
Because this is the major difference between Blu-ray and HD DVD.
Toshiba chose to subsidize their players, gain a nice margin of market share and open consumer's awareness to the chinese manufacturers we saw announced at CES. They did not have to worry about the discs since the production of an HD DVD is similar to DVD.

Sony, on the other hand, needs to go a long way to make BD discs a reality because production of those discs needs all new equipment. The answer? Subsidize the disc production. So they will produce all the discs at any cost and sell them as low as HD DVD, therefore, loosing money.

It is all fine and there is nothing wrong with it, except one thing...

Sony will keep producing and producing (loosing more and more money) until market demand really makes that format profitable. The problem is that we do not know when will that happen.

HD DVD is fighting aggressivelly and I'm afraid the BD camp hasn't seen all of Toshiba's aces yet. Chances are, this war will keep many many consumers away for still some time. And the PS3 hasn't reached the numbers it was supposed to reach.

Will Sony keep subsidizing BD discs indeffinately? I'm sure they have a deadline for that.

At some point, the production of BD discs will have to start living on its own. That will be when the disc production get too big for Sony to keep subsidizing it... but still too small to be competitive on its own against HD DVD and DVD.

That, I'm afraid will make BD consumers see a strange price increase.

Such policy of disc subsidizing is something I've never seen and Sony is only using it because there is a format war going on. And for that to work as Sony needs to, HD DVD should already be history.

I don't think it is.

Now... I'm in the HD DVD camp myself and I believe HD DVD will stay. But even if I am wrong, I mean, even if BD does win, it will take some time and it will not go easy. Plus: all of the Sony's campaign where the message is "BD victory is inevitable" show that they need to win quickly. Speed is crucial because all the subsidizing that is going on cannot last for long.

That's why I care about the business model followed. Because while some models are based on supply and demand... this particular model is artificial and cannot last for long.

There is something else: In a very shot period of time, HD DVD will not need subsidizing anymore. The arrival of chinese players on the market will probably mark that time. BD, I'm afraid, still has a lot to go untill then.

Take a look at BD50. Not every title really needs it. And yet, you see them everywhere. I believe it is wrong to think that it is as easy to make BD50 if you already make BD25 just like it is easy to make 1 or 2 layers on a DVD. It's not the same thing at all.

I believe the moment Sony stops paying the bill for BD50, everything shifts back to BD25 - and that will keep the price of BD50 too high.

That's my take.
As objective as I can be.

That's my take. As objective as I can be.It looks like a rehash of a certain MS VP postings. Not a single link or quote from verifiable facts.

It looks like a rehash of a certain MS VP postings. Not a single link or quote from verifiable facts.

On the phrase "that's my take", what part did you not understand?

I'm not here to insult anyone.
I you don't agree with my take on this subject, explain to me (and others) why am I wrong.

If I don't make sense, please let me read your take.

It is easy to say:
It looks like a rehash of a certain MS VP postings. Not a single link or quote from verifiable facts.
...when you have nothing to say.

Take a look at BD50. Not every title really needs it. And yet, you see them everywhere. I believe it is wrong to think that it is as easy to make BD50 if you already make BD25 just like it is easy to make 1 or 2 layers on a DVD. It's not the same thing at all.

I believe the moment Sony stops paying the bill for BD50, everything shifts back to BD25 - and that will keep the price of BD50 too high.

That's my take.
As objective as I can be.

Has it ever occurred to you that the reason BD50s are everywhere is that they arent as difficult and costly to manufacture as a certain person would lead us to believe? you say yourself not every title needs BD50, so why is sony just wasting money? who is sony trying to impress? a handful of AV nerds?

Usually the simplest hypothesis to a particular phenomena is the correct one.

I too believed all the Amir hype he displayed on this forum.. However now I know better...

Has it ever occurred to you that the reason BD50s are everywhere is that they arent as difficult and costly to manufacture as a certain person would lead us to believe? you say yourself not every title needs BD50, so why is sony just wasting money? who is sony trying to impress? a handful of AV nerds?

Usually the simplest hypothesis to a particular phenomena is the correct one.

Exactly. It's not like THIS DISC IS A BD50!!! is splashed on the covers of these things. Nobody cares about them but us. Most of the time we can't even tell unles it's announced here or HDD reviews it.

I believe the moment Sony stops paying the bill for BD50, everything shifts back to BD25 - and that will keep the price of BD50 too high.

Assuming that's the case, which is unlikely, then chances are that as production costs fall, any subsidy will be dropped. The result is that the distributors pay the same price but it's no longer subsidised.

BD25 has proven more than capable for many films although BD50 is still needed to get everything that should be on a disc (HD audio, HD extras, games etc.)

Has it ever occurred to you that the reason BD50s are everywhere is that they arent as difficult and costly to manufacture as a certain person would lead us to believe? you say yourself not every title needs BD50, so why is sony just wasting money? who is sony trying to impress? a handful of AV nerds?

Usually the simplest hypothesis to a particular phenomena is the correct one.

I'll tell you why:
It is because those additional 20Gb Blu-ray has over HD DVD is the only technical advantage that the average consumer can touch and understand. Even if the actual reflection of those 20Gb on sound and image is debatable.

50 over 30 is something the consumers understand. So Blu-ray has to produce lots of BD50 titles... at least while the war is on. And they will try to keep subsidizing it until they cannot. To make it look superior where that superiority is really perceived: capacity.

Most specs are always debatable and marketing doesn't like that. But capacity is the only spec any consumer understands. So capacity is key on BD's strategy. That's why the "BD50 is everywhere" is trumpeted everywhere - and that is the right thing to do for BD.

But that alone does not make BD50 a viable reality in the open non-subsidized market.

Oh... you think BD50 is not as difficult and expensive to produce after all? Then explain to me why no other replicator except Sony itself is producing BD50. Bear in mind that some replicators do offer the service... but cannot take any actual order before checking with Sony - the one who's really producing them.

I am not criticizing the format. I'm just pointing to an artificial market strategicaly put up by Sony. If it works it is great. If it does not it is disastrous. We are at a format war... and for these things to work, they must be brilliantly planned untill the very end. And I feel that most of the time Sony is always too over-confident... and their plans get out of hand (like all the delays, production problems and shipment problems that still put the PS3 below any prediction made).

I'll keep paying attention, since this is a very interesting subject.
I may be wrong or I may be right. It's a free concert. We can all watch.

And...
About simple hypothesis...
You would be right in an open non-subsidized real market.

But in the middle of a format war... do you really think any of the fighting camps' strategies are so simple?

For Sony's sake, I hope not! :D

Assuming that's the case, which is unlikely, then chances are that as production costs fall, any subsidy will be dropped. The result is that the distributors pay the same price but it's no longer subsidised.

BD25 has proven more than capable for many films although BD50 is still needed to get everything that should be on a disc (HD audio, HD extras, games etc.)

In the end, it will be price the real factor that will decide BD50's fate...
Will it be worth the extra buck...
...or will it be cheaper to squeeze it a little more and fit it into 25?

After the victory, the consumer's experience will not matter. Why? because they will have already won.

So, customers aside... if they really do not know what was behind the decision...
What will be the most natural movement?
Pay for a more expensive disc (with pros and cons)???
Or squeeze it (with hardly any cons)????

Only price will tell.

On the phrase "that's my take", what part did you not understand?

I'm not here to insult anyone.
I you don't agree with my take on this subject, explain to me (and others) why am I wrong.

If I don't make sense, please let me read your take.

It is easy to say:

...when you have nothing to say.These subjects have been covered several times. "Your take" is just another posting of those. You want to know if your wrong, do a search. Are you an optical engineer? Plastic materials engineer?

In the meantime BD50's are being released with more on the way. That is my take. And if you should have any interest in my background just click the RED or GREEN in my signature line.

Wrong.

Sony/MEI owns all of the BD50 replicator houses at the moment (or has predominant control) and subsidizes/controls BD50 movies. Sony subsidizes other companies for BD50 replication to encourage their initial production. There is plenty of information out there about this.

This will change but it will take time.

Sony preventing porn on BD just shows how much of a control they have on everything BD related.

Are you sure? I though talkstr8t had indicated there were others ... i just checked out one i am familiar with ... and you can check it for yourself:

http://www.cinram.com/dvd/us/dvd_oly_sourceform.pdf

Are you sure? I though talkstr8t had indicated there were others ... i just checked out one i am familiar with ... and you can check it for yourself:

http://www.cinram.com/dvd/us/dvd_oly_sourceform.pdf

I thought I had read on this forum that Cinram was/or was in the process of being retrofitted to produce BD-50.

These subjects have been covered several times. "Your take" is just another posting of those. You want to know if your wrong, do a search. Are you an optical engineer? Plastic materials engineer?

In the meantime BD50's are being released with more on the way. That is my take. And if you should have any interest in my background just click the RED or GREEN in my signature line.

Optical engineer? Plastic materials engineer?? Me???? Sir, you wouldn't buy a magnifier made by me... :D :D
Actually, I'm a film producer in Europe. It's a pleasure to meet you.

So what if these subjects have been covered several times before? I didn't start the thread. :p And yes, you probably already saw others who think like me... so what? Pragmatism loves company... :p

I think my views are right. I already did my searches. But I'll keep listening to the market. Of that you can be sure.

More BD50 is coming? I know it will.
Well... as I already said... as long as we are not paying for it, let it come. :D :D :D

And... what does your background has to do with this discussion? Don't tell me that it was you who gave Sony the idea for subsidizing their discs... :D :D :D

LOL

Optical engineer? Plastic materials engineer?? Me???? Sir, you wouldn't buy a magnifier made by me... :D :D
Actually, I'm a film producer in Europe. It's a pleasure to meet you.

So what if these subjects have been covered several times before? I didn't start the thread. :p And yes, you probably already saw others who think like me... so what? Pragmatism loves company... :p

I think my views are right. I already did my searches. But I'll keep listening to the market. Of that you can be sure.

More BD50 is coming? I know it will.
Well... as I already said... as long as we are not paying for it, let it come. :D :D :D

And... what does your background has to do with this discussion? Don't tell me that it was you who gave Sony the idea for subsidizing their discs... :D :D :D

LOL

Nice

I think it's headed the other way -
forget the 50s, bring on the 200s....:)

ken

I'll tell you why:
It is because those additional 20Gb Blu-ray has over HD DVD is the only technical advantage that the average consumer can touch and understand. Even if the actual reflection of those 20Gb on sound and image is debatable.


So then why don't we see "BD50" displayed prominently on the packaging somewhere? The only studio that I know of that indicates that a title is using BD50 is Fox, and that's because Fox historically tends to be very thorough about listing all the specifications of its titles.

Basically, you have ONE very biased person who claims to have inside information about BD50 and that it is very expensive and difficult to manufacture, therefore it will be very rare. He's wrong about BD50 being rare, so it's reasonable to doubt his other claims of BD50 being expensive and difficult to manufacture as well.